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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I of II"

No, you've lost count. You already posted a response. As of now this is your second of three follow-ups to one of my comments.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I see that you keep playing your 'reverse' and 'only' game, telling us that Minor did not give us a definition of the 'natural born citizen' clause because it said that a child born in a country to citizen parents is a 'natural-born citizen' (not the reverse) and it did not say 'only' a child born in a country to citizen parents is a 'natural-born citizen.'"

And unlike how you play the same logic game, I follow the rules. The fallacy here is often called "affirming the consequent". You, Mr. Appuzo, accused Jack Maskell of it, but you fabricated the invalid argument that you attribute to Maskell. When I point out that you botched the logic, I back it up with what Minor v. Happerset actually says and what you fallaciously claim it to mean.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Your commentary on the Minor decision is incompetent at best and downright fraudulent at worst."

Mr. Apuzzo, you are the gift that keeps on giving. Thanks for raising "incompetent" and "fraudulent", because turnabout is fair play. Have you forgotten how your cases went? The lies you copied into your filings? All the experts and authorities who are actually alive to speak for themselves?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Minor’s definition of a 'natural born citizen' is a paraphrase from Vattel"

No. Vattel wrote in French.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Second, Vattel’s definition of a 'natural born citizen' was accepted by, among other historical and legal sources, both Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1830) and Justice Daniels in Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857)."

Vattel did not defined 'natural born citizen', nor any other English-language term. In The Venus, Chief Justice Marshal cited Vattel on the "natives or indigenes", but "natural born citizen" got no mention.

The best language for your theory, Mr. Apuzzo, is Justice Daniels in Scott v. Sandford. Since the unanimous Minor v. Happerset decision doesn't work for you, let's see how far you get riding a concurring opinion in Scott v. Sanford.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I see that you are desperately trying to save face here. Well, I hate (love) to tell you but it’s a losing proposition for you. You have nothing new to offer to refute my points. You just revert to your little inane comments. Frankly, you have spent yourself.

What a laugh you gave me when you accused me of affirming the consequence.

So how does it feel not having anything to say that counts for anything?

MichaelN said...

Unknown, hiding behind a pseudonym says....

"Vattel did not defined 'natural born citizen', nor any other English-language term. In The Venus, Chief Justice Marshal cited Vattel on the "natives or indigenes", but "natural born citizen" got no mention."

Vattel defined a status, which we know as "natural born Citizen", a true "native" or indigenous..... here, did you forget or not want to face this part?...........

Vattel:
"The natives, <>, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights."

and...

"The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent."

and....

"I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country."

Seems that it's perfectly reasonable and appropriate for the Framers to use the term "natural born Citizen" to describe in English what Vattel was talking about when he used the term "Les naturels, ou indigenes" to describe people of such a status.

What's your problem Unknown?...... has the truth come to bite you on the arse?

MichaelN said...

Unknown, who hides behind a pseudonym says....

"I back it up with what Minor v. Happerset actually says and what you fallaciously claim it to mean."

Here's what Minor Happersett "actually says", can you show where it "actually says" that native-birth sufficed to make a "natural born citizen", or for that matter, sufficed to even make a "citizen" at all?

88 U.S. 162

Minor v. Happersett ()

Argued: February 9, 1875

Decided: March 29, 1875

"At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also.

These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts."

Is this not saying that the Minor Court recognized that there were doubts whether native-birth in the US sufficed to make a citizen at all, and that the doubts remained unsolved?

Try and be honest for a change "Unknown".

Robert said...

What the Obot argument sounds like in a preschool math class:

Teacher: I'm sorry, Dear, but I've explained to you that 1+1+1 = 3 and you've added it up to be 4 again. I'm afraid I'm going to have to count this as an incorrect answer.

Student: But Miss, you never said it wasn't 4.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote: "Whatever might or might not make a 'natural born citizen' elsewhere and/or to others outside of the US Constitutional context is IRRELEVANT."

You don't get it. There is no "elsewhere"! There is only the English language, and the meaning of those three words remains the same, constant everywhere on earth.

There is no "term of art", -there is only common language with common meaning. There is no common law meaning because "citizens" did not exist until the Revolution, thus there was no use of such a "term" as natural born citizen.

The context of the Constitution is that shared by John Jay; he must be not only a natural citizen, which all citizens were considered to be due to the fiction of law by which foreigners are reborn as new and equal natural citizens of their American homeland (State) via natural-ization, (not citizenization) but he must be one born as a natural citizen, not a natural citizen via the American legal fiction of citizenship equality.

Both terms, "natural citizen" and "born citizen" were and are ambiguous because there are two kinds of each, but used in conjunction they spell out the requirement that one be born as a natural citizen, -meaning one produced by citizen parents.
That would mean that the President was American, fully American, and only American.

MichaelN said...

Furthermore, with regard to the US Supreme Court's majority opinion in the Minor v Happersett case, where the SCOTUS said.....

"At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also.

These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.

Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents.

As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts."


..... it is plain to see that the SCOTUS makes a clear distinction between two types of native-born i.e. those who are native-born to US citizen parents and those who are native-born to non-citizen parents, with the SCOTUS holding doubts whether that the latter are citizens at all and that the doubts remained, yet to be solved.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

I of II

The Monty Obots, some law professors, and a handful of lower court judges misrepresent what citizenship doubts Minor had about who was included as a member of the general “citizen” class and the Minor citizenship doubts that Wong Kim Ark actually resolved. As you and I have for so long explained, those doubts were not about who was a “natural born citizen” and as Minor explained, therefore undoubtedly a “citizen.” Rather, the Court’s doubts concerned who was a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment and not an Article II “natural born citizen” under constitutional common law, which it cited as the source of the definition of a “natural born citizen” and not the Fourteenth Amendment. Actually, the Court explained that the meaning of a “natural born citizen” was not to be found in the Constitution which then already included the Fourteenth Amendment.

The Fourteenth Amendment provides: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." This text alone demonstrates that the amendment defines general citizenship in the United States and general citizenship in the respective states. The Amendment does not suggest any specific type of national citizenship just like it does not suggested any specific type of state citizenship. There clearly is no reference in the Amendment’s text to a “natural born citizen,” and so from a textual standpoint, it is unreasonable to contend that the Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” Additionally, the Amendment’s legislative history also shows that the Amendment was not intended to change or alter Article II presidential eligibility and the meaning of an Article II natural born citizen.”

The Minor Court’s doubts were about whether a person who was not a “natural born citizen” because not born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” could still be a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment without needing any naturalization after birth. The Court explained that there was no doubt that a person who was a “natural born citizen” was also a “citizen” like his or her parents. But it could not say the same for a person born in the United States to alien parents. Hence, it said that “there have been doubts” whether such a person was a “citizen” which doubts did not exist for a “natural born citizen.”

That Minor sua sponte raised these doubts about U.S. citizenship also reveals to what common law the Court looked when defining a “citizen” and “natural born citizen.” It surely could not be the English common law, for that law provided that any child born in the King’s dominion and under his obedience was a “natural born subject,” regardless of the citizenship of his or her parents. So, under English common law, no such doubts existed.

Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark explained that the Minor Court, except for Chief Justice Chase who had since passed away, contained the same Justices as did the Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (held that the Fourteenth Amendment’s privileges and immunities clause applied to national citizenship, not state citizenship). There, the Court through Justice Miller had said what Wong Kim Ark had to call dicta (along with suggesting that the English common law survived the American Revolution on matters of national citizenship) that “[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.” Justice Gray went on to explain that in Minor, the Court did not definitely exclude those children from citizenship under

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

the Amendment. Rather, Wong Kim Ark said that Minor, without deciding the issue, cautioned that “there have been doubts” whether children born in the United States to alien parents were “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment. But again, that question had nothing to do with defining a “natural born citizen” and all to do with defining a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment. How do we know that this analysis is correct? We know it because Wong Kim Ark tells us so.

Wong’s complete focus in deciding its citizenship issue was the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause and nothing else. The Amendment and its “jurisdiction” analysis had never been nor were they relevant to determining “natural born citizen” status for the simple reason that by the definition, born in the country to citizen parents, there had never been any doubt that a “natural born citizen” was born “subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.” But in 1898, it was relevant in citizenship analysis because of the possibility that the Amendment increased the class of “citizens of the United States” who would obtain that status at birth by simply being born in the U.S. and subject to its jurisdiction. But with the “natural born citizen” clause not having been amended by the Fourteenth Amendment either textually or by implication, what the Amendment set out to do was not to provide a new definition of the “natural born citizen” clause, but rather increase the class of persons who could be accepted as “citizens of the United States” at birth virtually by simple birth in the United States and without any naturalization after birth. As Justice Gray explained, the implications were great not only for children born in the United States to Chinese parents, but also for those born in the U.S. to European parents. Probably unknown then to the general population, former President Chester Arthur, who appointed Justice Gray to the U.S. Supreme Court, fell into this latter category.

When Justice Gray examined what impact the law of nations had on American “citizenship,” he looked to the state of international affairs existing at the time the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted and ratified. He did not examine that question within the time frame of the American Revolution, the Constitutional Convention, and state ratifying conventions, the relevant time period for analyzing Article II’s “natural born citizen” clause.

From all the language of Wong Kim Ark, there is absolutely no doubt that the Court was specifically addressing one class of “citizen” which is based strictly on the meaning of a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment and not on another class of “citizen” which is based on the specific meaning of an Article II “natural born citizen” under American national common law. The Court devoted its opinion to the interpretation of the Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause. Other than its confirmation of Minor’s holding on citizenship and Minor’s common law definition of a “natural born citizen” when discussing The Slaughterhouse Cases, it neither examined nor changed the meaning of a “natural born citizen” as presented by Minor.

Minor adequately covered the meaning of an Article II “natural born citizen,” which coverage was confirmed by Wong Kim Ark. The definition of a “natural born citizen” recognized and confirmed in those cases has never been altered or amended in any way by our U.S. Supreme Court. Nor has it been amended by any constitutional amendment. What this means is that the definition of the clause, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth, still stands today and determines who is and who is not an Article II “natural born citizen.”

Both de facto President, Barack Obama, and Senator Ted Cruz, do not meet this constitutional common law definition of a “natural born citizen” and are therefore not eligible to be President.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said...
a.r.nash writes:
"There is only the English language, and the meaning of those three words remains the same, constant everywhere on earth."

So what happened to your context theory?

In context with the Framers' responsibility and imperative to have eligibility for the office of POTUS to be exclusive to only those with the least possible foreign ties, "natural born Citizen" per Article II of the USC meant one who was/is native born in the land which one's parents were/are citizens thereof.

The SCOTUS have confirmed this definition on several occasions, with these three English words meaning precisely the same on each occasion.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Your simplistic logic is just that and does not address the complexity of the issue at hand. You also get no credit for simply not understanding the depth of my argument."

My understanding is different from yours. Crank theories have to be deep. They have to make complex issues of matters that others see as simple. How else could you convince yourself of something so obviously ludicrous?

I thought we had progress last time, but apparently I didn't even get a straight answer on your position. I'll try again:

Do you hold, Mr. Apuzzo, that in the sense the terms are used in the Constitution, a natural born citizen is *not* a citizen of the United States?

I don't need any complex or deep argument. If you give me a straight answer equivalent to "yes", I need do nothing more than underline it.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

“[t]he phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.”

The citizenship delineation in the 14th Amendment is between those born subject to the American government in the most fundamental way, and that included all native-born children of citizens and all children of freed slaves. They both had in common being born subject.
But foreigners and their children remained subject to their own government until they became Americans. That was made plain by the conscription act of 1862 which declared immigrants and their children exempt from a duty to serve in the U.S. military. They, as foreigners, were deemed to be not subject since they were subject to a foreign power.

What no court case was about, including Wong, was the issue beyond merely adjudicating if immigrant's native-born children were subject to Washington and were thus U.S. citizens according to the 14th Amendment. Rather, no court was assigned the task of judging whether or not children of non-immigrant foreigners were citizens or not.

The bastardization of U.S. citizenship began when Attorney General John Griggs made the judgement in 1898 (completely on his own) that such children were including in the Wong holding along with children of legal immigrants. THEY WERE NOT INCLUDED!

But the damage from his rouge official opinion has stood ever since and is considered the law of the land even though it is nothing more than the erroneous policy of the land.
That policy is based on nothing. Challenge any legally-inclined obamunist to explain the source of that policy and he will be exposed since there is none.

It is nothing more than an ingrained, embedded, institutionalized error and is not grounded at all by U.S. law or high court holding.

With obumer, they make a further leap into the darkness by fantasizing that government-granted citizenship is the same as natural citizenship which exists without the Constitution and amendments.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It said that at common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar all people who were born in a country to parents who were its 'citizens' at the time of their birth were undoubtedly not only 'citizens' themselves like their parents, but also 'natural born citizens' and that all those who were not so born were 'aliens or foreigners.' That is, indeed, language of inclusion and exclusion."

Mr. Apuzzo, you are the one who believes that there are born citizens who are not natural-born citizens. The Court's language, "natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners," leaves no room for the class you imagine. It does not exclude other people from falling into the class of natural-born citizens; it excludes further classes of citizens. My position, and that of the majority of experts, is that "natural-born citizen" means citizen from the moment of birth; thus, just as the Court indicates, upon birth one is either a natural-born citizen or an alien.

The section of Minor that you cite is legally, grammatically, and logically an inclusive and not exclusive statement, and the very next paragraph gives us another. The Court found it under the power of Congress to consider foreign-born children of citizens to be natural-born citizens:

"Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided ‘that any alien, being a free white person,’ might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, [...] and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since." Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875) at 168.

That refutes you in many ways, including your claim of the definition. Obviously a child cannot "be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States" and also be born in the country, so "natural-born citizen" cannot possibly mean born in the country to parents who are citizens.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Both "unknown" and Mario made erroneous assertions. Unknown stated:
""natural-born citizen" means citizen from the moment of birth; thus, just as the Court indicates, upon birth one is either a natural-born citizen or an alien."

That is child-like over-simplification. You've made the error of associating natural citizenship with the irrelevant element of TIME. Timing (at birth) is not connected to that which is determined by ORIGIN.

A law could exist declaring all native-born children to be citizens upon their first month or year of life. What would that, like "upon birth", have to do with that which is "natural"? NOTHING! That would be as arbitrary as at/from/upon birth. Timing is irrelevant.

"Natural" is determined by parentage. One is either born of and into one group or born of and into another group; American or foreign. Dog or Cat.
Natural citizens are born of citizens while 14th Amendment Constitutional citizens are not. That is why it was written, -to provide the children of non-citizens with citizenship via legal automatic naturalization. That is why it is known as the Naturalization clause.

The U.S. government Census Bureau labeled native-born children of foreigners "foreign stock". Foreign stock cannot be tossed in with "native-stock" (natural born citizens) as if they are the same. THEY ARE DIFFERENT. One has American roots, the other has foreign roots regardless of native-birth.
One is conceived with no right to citizenship whatsoever, while the other is conceived with an unalienable right to citizenship. One enters the world with the gift of citizenship. The other enters the world with a right so fundamental that no law even exists which "grants" it. It is an organic, a priori, sui generis right that supersedes the authority given to men to bestow citizenship on those who have no natural right to it.

cont...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues:

Mario wrote: "...and that all those who were not so born were 'aliens or foreigners.' That is, indeed, language of inclusion and exclusion."

Come on! You know full well there is no "ALL"! You fabricated its existence and tossed it in to substantiate your doctrine. That is false inclusion and exclusion, of your own invention.

The original, -as Unknown points out, is "-as distinguished from aliens or foreigners,".
There is NO exclusion in that language. NBCs are also distinguished from Native Americans, Gypsies, and previously slaves (as well as all animals).
That cannot be used as evidence that natural citizens are aliens if born across the artificial line known as a border because the language is also missing the word "only", -as in "...only children born in the country of parents who are its citizens".

There's no ALL and there's no ONLY. Hence there is no "definition". But Mario refuses to acknowledge the meaning of what a definition is.

Mario relates: "that question had nothing to do with defining a “natural born citizen” and all to do with defining a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment."

A suggestion; instead of making an illogical contradistinction between nbc and a citizen of the U.S., instead make this distinction: Wong is not about citizens who are native natural born citizens but about citizens who are native alien-born citizens.
That's pretty darn clear and unambiguous.
That is the distinction that has always been the focus of the United States government.

It was always about parentage not language in the Constitution. Blood inheritance was everything. One's inheritance and heritage was American or it was foreign. And no one with foreign nationality inheritance and direct foreign heritage was allowed to serve as President. Their origin had to be American only.
learn more at obama--nation.com

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown wrote: "That refutes you in many ways, including your claim of the definition. Obviously a child cannot "be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States" and also be born in the country, so "natural-born citizen" cannot possibly mean born in the country to parents who are citizens."

He said "obviously" and that could not be more true. It is as clear as crystal to everyone, but Mario cannot accept the obvious because unfortunately he is bound like a Siamese twin to the doctrine that states what is obviously illogical.

He is painted into a corner from which there is no exit with dignity. That is unfortunate for our side because we cannot point to him and his writings as spelling out the obvious truth about natural born citizenship when his doctrine has such a huge logic error in one section of it.
His error is in making an unholy Frankenstein marriage of jus soli with jus sanguinis. No such marriage can be found anywhere in any writing except his and those who've embraced that error.

Native birth was always irrelevant to natural citizenship because its meaning isn't determined by government, law, courts, experts, or opinions. It is determined by the separate meaning of two normal words.

The problem is that one of them was ambiguous because of the fiction of law known as the doctrine of citizenship equality, -by which those who were natural-ized became new natural citizens also.

Thus John Jay had to distinguish them from real natural citizens, hence the inclusion of the underlined word "born". The President must be one born as a natural citizen. That excludes all alien-born natural-ized natural citizens.

There is no other explanation that makes any sense at all. learn more at obama--nation.com

MichaelN said...

Seems I need to dumb it down.

Unknown, who cowardly hides behind a pseudonym.

Minor V Happersett.

"Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts."

Is this not saying that the Minor Court recognized that there were doubts whether native-birth in the US sufficed to make a citizen at all, and that the doubts remained unsolved?

Why would the SCOTUS recognize these doubts, if it was a done deal that native-birth was all that was necessary to make a "natural born Citizen"?

MichaelN said...

@ Unknown.

What does this mean?...

Minor v Happersett

"As early as 1804 it was enacted by Congress that when any alien who had declared his intention to become a citizen in the manner provided by law died before he was actually naturalized, his widow and children should be considered as citizens of the United States, ..."

Carlyle said...

We seem to be going in circles again and talking past each other to a certain extent.

I think the one thing we can agree on is that parentage is a key part of NBC. Some say that is all and some say must include "soil" also.

But the parentage argument is quite enough to topple Jack Maskell and all the Talking Heads and all the Powers That Be.

Perhaps that is enough. We don't need to overkill them.

It seems to me that the Founders had every reason to be exclusionary and would have easily and obviously believed that NBC had an element of "soil". But I am willing to let that rest - IF we can all agree and go kill the dragon, so to speak.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You have made two concessions that put you in check mate. You concede that you do not know how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizen.” You also concede that Minor v. Happersett (1875) said that a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is a “natural born citizen” (that is the order you insist on). You claim that what Minor said about a “natural born citizen” is only one description of that clause and not its definition. Now, if you want to prove that a “natural born citizen” has some description other than this one, the burden of proof is on you. People like Jack Maskell and you have failed to meet this burden. Telling us what the Naturalization Act of 1790 said without at the same time telling us that the Naturalization Act of 1795 repealed that Act is downright fraudulent. Telling us what the “consensus” of “experts” maintain just does not cut it. Anybody can have a personal opinion about anything. It is the evidence and reasoning that supports the opinion which make the opinion persuasive. Jack Maskell and you fail on both counts. So, both of you are stuck with the only description of the clause to which you are willing to concede, even if you refuse to accept that the description is its definition.

What is ironic about this is that you and others like you play the ignorance game with the hopes of gaining license to define a “natural born citizen” any which way that suits your end. But since we know of one and only one description of a “natural born citizen” to which you also concede, your claimed ignorance is your demise, for in light of that ignorance and your failure to produce evidence of some other description that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers may have used for the clause, you are compelled to default to the one and only description you acknowledge, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Unknown said...

Mario, what is a monty obot? i know obot is a 4 letter word for liar in english and maybe in vattel's french too. Vattel wrote in french which obviously means the english translation of the natives or NBCs in law of nations is irrelevant and most likely incorrect according to the obots. There are many different different ways to become a native or NBC and the minor court just covered one of them. Obviously, the child of a alien is a native of the geographic location where birth occured and dual citizen as well like ted cruz. I have no doubts that if a major party wants cruz on the ballot for President then rest assured that will happen. Cruz and barry, assuming that his BC is legit (haha) are dual citizens and natural born citizens of 2 countrys and plainly wouldve been eligible in eyes of the Framers

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Carlyle wrote: "It seems to me that the Founders had every reason to be exclusionary and would have easily and obviously believed that NBC had an element of "soil". But I am willing to let that rest - IF we can all agree and go kill the dragon, so to speak.

Amen to that. I've never seen any reason to beat a dead horse when Obama's ineligibility results from foreign paternity alone, regardless of where he was born.
Erecting an elaborate and illogical system of flawed assertions about native birth being mandatory for some reason serves no purpose and adds no advantage.

And about that, if native-birth had been mandated for eligibility then the Constitution would have read: "No person, except a native natural born citizen shall be eligible..."
Neither an alien-born "natural citizen" nor a foreign-born natural citizen would have been eligible.

Just consider; if the founders would allow former foreigners to be President during their own era, why would they not allow foreign-born Americans to be President after their era? Such children would be born subject to no foreign power unless raised abroad to maturity, and would have no national identity other than American in their own eyes and the eyes of others.
There is no intelligent articulatible reason why they could not be trusted to serve in the same capacity as their domestically born brothers.

Mario wrote: "you are compelled to default to the one and only description you acknowledge, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth."

"A child born to my wife under my roof is my natural born child." Question: What does the location of birth have to do with anything? Is a child born to my wife in a hospital an alien to me because it was not born under my roof?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

Carlyle said: "It seems to me that the Founders had every reason to be exclusionary and would have easily and obviously believed that NBC had an element of ‘soil’. But I am willing to let that rest - IF we can all agree and go kill the dragon, so to speak.”

You responded: “Amen to that. I've never seen any reason to beat a dead horse when Obama's ineligibility results from foreign paternity alone, regardless of where he was born.”

But then in great Adrien Nash style, you missed Carlyle’s point, which is that there is no need to continue to debate whether place of birth is a necessary element of being a “natural born citizen” (“let that rest”) for regardless of where Obama was born, he is still not a “natural born citizen” because he was not born to U.S. “citizen” parents (his father was not a U.S. “citizen” when Obama was born), you tell us that the place of birth debate is a “dead horse” (as though you are the victor), and you still continue trying to convince us (after just telling us that the debate was a “dead horse”) of your theory that place of birth is not a required element of being a “natural born citizen.”

The truth of the matter is that in our constitutional republic, there has only ever been one and only one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. See, among other authorities, Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Although they say that it is only one description and not “the” definition of a “natural born citizen,” Unknown/NotLinda, the Monty Obots, and some current law professors and lower court judges, all agree with me that based on the historical and legal record a person satisfying those birth circumstances is a “natural born citizen.” At the same time, they produce no evidence that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, as a consensus, agreed on some other “description” (they just abhor the word “definition”). On the contrary, they tell us that they are not able to identify any definition that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers relied upon in defining a “natural born citizen.” The simple truth is therefore, given that Obama supporters’ position that while they do not know how the Framers defined a “natural born citizen,” they agree that a child born in the country to “citizen” parents is a “natural born citizen,” given that that description is the only one that gained consensus in our historical and legal history, “only” a child who is born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is a “natural born citizen.”

Your silly examples of children being born in someone’s house and family does not and cannot change this reality. How could you be simple minded enough to equate what you may view as the rules applicable to your family to what a nation may view as the rules applicable to it? The next thing that you are going to tell us is that because you may view yourself as the “head” of your household, you have legitimate power and authority to make laws over your society.

Carlyle said...

Oh yes, I forgot to mention. There are actually a few who strongly believe that it need be only ONE parent, not TWO.

I do not think that is a defensible argument. But if it were defensible at all, even remotely, it MUST be the FATHER that is that parent. It could not possibly be the mother!

Another big oops for The Obama!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Leo Derosia,

A Monty Obot is an elitist Obot who thinks he or she is superior in intellect to Anti-Obots because of his or her knowledge of Monty Python episodes and their placing the Anti-Obots into the losing side of those episodes.

Unknown’s statement that Vattel is to be discounted in defining a “natural born citizen” because he wrote in French is as ridiculous as her whole position on a “natural born citizen.” I guess we should also discount the Old Testament because it was originally written mostly in Hebrew and some in Aramaic and the New Testament because it was originally written in Greek, and today in 2300 languages other than English.

You said: “There are many different different ways to become a native or NBC and the minor court just covered one of them.”

What other ways are there to be a “natural born citizen?” What is your authority for your position?

You said: “Cruz and barry, assuming that his BC is legit (haha) are dual citizens and natural born citizens of 2 countrys and plainly wouldve been eligible in eyes of the Framers.”

Are you saying that the Framers would have allowed children born to British subjects (not U.S. citizens”) parents to be eligible for President in the future? Also, explain how a person can be a “natural born citizen” of two different countries.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Carlyle,

I do not think it is necessary for us to speculate that if one U.S. “citizen” parent were sufficient to make a “natural born citizen,” which one of the parents must it be or can it be either one.

John Locke spoke about “parents,” meaning father and mother, and treated them equally.

When Vattel first said in Section 212 in defining a “natural born citizen” “parents” and then said "fathers," he was actually speaking of both the father and mother being “citizens.”

During the Founding, the wife, like the children, followed the allegiance and citizenship of the husband. Hence, the father and mother had one citizenship.

It does not make sense that the Founders would have allowed just one parent to be a citizen when the child would inherit as much of a foreign allegiance and citizenship from the other alien parent as he or she would if both parents were aliens. As John Locke explained, mothers were equal to fathers in rearing and educating their children and in the influence and authority they exercised over them.

Even Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark recognized that one alien parent alone disqualified a child from being a "natural born citizen" when he said: “ ‘The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle.’ p. 22, note.” Wong Kim Ark, at 666-67 (citing and quoting Binney’s 1853 pamphlet on citizenship). Here we can see that the Court distinguished between children born in the United States to alien parents and children born in the United States to citizen parents, with only the latter being recognized to be “natural born citizens.” It should also be noted that at the time of the ruling, the wife acquired the citizenship of her husband upon marriage. Hence, that explains why the Court used the singular “alien” and “citizen” parent. Even using the singular, the Court still meant to say that both parents were either aliens or citizens. I have explained this point at length on this blog. But even if the wife became liberated from the husband’s citizenship by the Cable Act of 1922, such change in the law did not change the definition of a “natural born citizen.” Actually what the change in law did is make it more difficult to be a “natural born citizen,” for if a wife is an alien, she has to take affirmative steps to become a U.S. “citizen” other than just marrying a U.S. “citizen” if she and her husband are to procreate “natural born citizen” children.

Unknown said...

Mario, i was just being sarcastic about duals being eligible and the many different ways the obots claim one can be a nbc. The minor court nailed it in a simple sentence about the natives or nbcs. Leo

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"A child born to my wife and I under my roof is my natural born child."

"A child born of American parents in the United States is a natural born citizen."

Mario runs away from the fact that the logic behind both statements is identical. He pretends to be the champion of logic but he throws it overboard when it does not confirm his doctrine. It is totally "silly" to evade the dictates of logic.
Mario pontificates that "“only” a child who is born in the country to parents who were its “citizens”...is a “natural born citizen.”"

And where did he find the key word "only"? In his imagination. I'll give hima $1,000,000,000 to find one single historical "authority" who ever used that word.

None did because reason and language forbid it. A nation can not "decide" what "natural" means, nor what "born" means.

There was no political "consensus" about what the specific words "natural born citizen" meant because it was defined not by men but by the English language. Nothing can change that fact; not new ideas, interpretations, nor court citations of philosophical observations.
What those words mean does not rest on an opinion of the supreme court, nor an ancillary mention of an observation about who are the residents of countries.
It is a dead horse to argue that the Supreme Court settled the matter as if it issued a holding on it because whether true or false, that horse will get you nowhere. It is lifeless to advancing the truth that only American parents can produce natural born American citizens like themselves.

How do they do that? Via life, via blood, via natural inheritance, -not via law or opinion or soil.

Natural membership is an unalienable right of all off-spring of parents of every human and animal group. That membership, including citizenship, is not dependent on anything other than who the parents are. Members or outsiders?
Outsiders have no right to membership and members are indelibly stained with what they were born being.
Their membership was pre-determined at conception. They are natural family members, not adopted. They are natural tribal members, not inducted. They are natural national members, -not naturalized by permission.
That is the principle which Mario throws in the garbage can.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

Please re-post your latest comment of 1-7-14, 3:13 PM. I accidentally deleted it.

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo said ....
"During the Founding, the wife, like the children, followed the allegiance and citizenship of the husband. Hence, the father and mother had one citizenship."
--------------------------------
There is no doubt that any reference to the father, included the mother and their minor children, the US naturalization acts are testimony to this,as mentioned by SCOTUS in the Minor v Happersett majority opinion.

"As early as 1804 it was enacted by Congress that when any alien who had declared his intention to become a citizen in the manner provided by law died before he was actually naturalized, his widow and children should be considered as citizens of the United States, ..."

MichaelN said...

Article II of the USC is not about eligibility as a citizen.

It is about eligibility of someone who is already a citizen for the office of POTUS and is a measure aimed to have the least possible foreign ties bear upon those who might be POTUS.

Place of birth was/is an important element in weighing allegiance, that's why the US Congress and Senate changed the second US naturalization act of 1795 so as to exclude children who were born off-shore to US citizens from being considered as natural born citizens, instead declaring them to be "citizens of the United States".

The reason they were changed from natural born citizens to citizens was because of PLACE of birth, they did not have the degree of allegiance which the Framers considered as necessary for the job as POTUS.

Ergo: children born abroad to US citizens are NOT natural born citizens BECAUSE of PLACE of birth, whereas children born locally to NON US citizens are NOT natural born citizens BECAUSE of PARENTS.

Unknown said...

both parents must be citizens and in some cases, like children of US military personnel born overseas, it is ok if they are born outside of US but only if parents are citizens. A natural born citizen and citizen are both citizens but only one class is eligible now to be CiC. A citizen is eligible to serve in Congress but not VP or President. Cruz thinks just because he renounces his canadian citizenship he is eligible but he never was a NBC to begin with as he well knows or even a citizen under NA 1795. I would like to hear one of these self proclaimed defenders of the Constitution like mark levin, cruz and ron paul to come out and barry and cruz are not eligible

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"There are actually a few who strongly believe that it need be only ONE parent, not TWO."

Nationality flows from the head of the family to the children. The father is subject to the full jurisdiction of the national

government, -not the mother. She cannot be drafted and sent to her death in war.

Women, like children, while considered citizens in a civil sense and an international sense, were not considered citizens

in a political sense. They were barred from politics and government offices, -not by law but by entrenched tradition.

But if the father was dead or was unknown, a child born to her would inherit her nationality because she was the head of the family. In a sense, it would inherit her father's nationality which is what she inherited.

If Obama's mother had never married and had never declared the identity of his father, Barry would be considered to be

a natural born American through her, -not by law but by nature.
By U.S. law he wouldn't because it applied to foreign birth and she was a few months too young for that law to apply to her child whom she claimed was not foreign born.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote: "Article II...is a measure aimed to have the least possible foreign ties bear upon those who might be POTUS."

That is false. The least possible foreign ties would be only those whose ancestors came to America on the Mayflower and other such early settlers' ships. That would be "the least possible".
Instead, it was about preventing any direct ties through foreign parents. That means that parents can be former foreigners who became new natural American citizens via natural-ization.

It would be asinine to claim that naturalized parents have no direct ties to their homeland and yet their sons could become the Commander in Chief & President.

If what you claim and believe were true then no child of a naturalized citizen could be President, but they can. Why? By one thing and one thing only; a principle of Natural Law. If the parents are Americans then the children are Americans also just like them, -natural Americans, -born with their parents' national membership.

"that's why the US Congress and Senate changed the second US naturalization act of 1795 so as to exclude children who were born off-shore to US citizens from being considered as natural born citizens, instead declaring them to be "citizens of the United States".

That is equally false. Presidential eligibility language was removed by a later Congress because it was ignorant of the purpose for that language having been inserted by the founders, -which was to insure that foreign-born American sons could serve as President, just like their native-born brothers and fathers.

That was probably thanks to Thomas Jefferson and/or John Adams who were serving a U.S. Ambassadors when the Constitution was written, and thus would have lacked any input about whether or not hypothetical European-born American sons were disenfranchised while sons of foreigners (born after naturalization) were not.

Their hypothetical sons (real or non-existent, I know not)would have had nothing but the influence of their American fathers who were founding fathers and future-Presidents. While sons of naturalized Englishmen or Europeans were raised by men who were born and raised as foreigners with allegiance to a foreign king.

So don't talk to me about which sons were born and raised with more natural connection to America.

cont...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote: "the US Congress and Senate changed the second US naturalization act of 1795 so as to exclude children who were born off-shore to US citizens from being considered as natural born citizens, instead declaring them to be "citizens of the United States".

Everything about that statement is wrong. First, American sons born abroad were not "excluded from being considered as natural born citizens". The language contains not one single little word of exclusion of any sort other than being excluded as being considered foreigners.

The language was about differentiation between those children born as Americans and those born as foreigners needing naturalization.
If you are born as an American then you are born as "a citizen of the United States". The presidential eligibility language was later removed because the author(s) of the revised version didn't understand why it had been inserted by those who were the founders of the nation and who wanted all natural American sons to be treated equally. Inequality was unjust.

If you had four sons, then became an Ambassador, and your 5th son was born abroad, then you returned home after a few years of serve and fathered four more sons, how is it that the lone 5th son should be rejected from the same right as all of his brothers? He might be the brightest and most patriotic of all of them and perhaps even a Justice of the Supreme Court, and yet he's ineligible while an immigrant's son (born after his father's naturalization) would be eligible to be President regardless of all of his foreign baggage?

Please explain how your patriotic theory about allegiance plays out in the real world. It doesn't.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You have made two concessions that put you in check mate."

Another self-awarded victory to add to your vast collection.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You concede that you do not know how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a 'natural born citizen.'"

I'll concede even more: Not only do I not know how they defined the Article II term, "natural born citizen", I have no good evidence that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did define it.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You also concede that Minor v. Happersett (1875) said that a child born in the country to parents who were its 'citizens' at the time of the child’s birth is a 'natural born citizen'"

Right again, and again I'll go farther: Minor v. Happersett said that no authority had expressed any doubt that a child born in the country to parents who were its 'citizens' at the time of the child’s birth is a 'natural born citizen', and Minor v. Happersett was correct to so say.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"(that is the order you insist on)."

Yes, for it is the direction of implication that actually appears.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You claim that what Minor said about a 'natural born citizen' is only one description of that clause and not its definition."

Close enough.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Now, if you want to prove that a “natural born citizen” has some description other than this one, the burden of proof is on you. People like Jack Maskell and you have failed to meet this burden."

Hahahaha... Oops, almost swallowed my gum.

"Burden of proof" brings us back, once again, to fantasy versus reality. In the real world, courts, from whom you sought rulings, found not only that you failed to meet your burden, but that your theory is without merit. In the real world your efforts played out just as those you now call "Monty Python Obots" had hold you. In the real world we have the counter-examples to your theory: two actual U.S. presidents.

On the fantasy side we have, or somewhere I have, recordings of Internet-radio shows featuring you and Charles Kerchner. Your client, with the benefit of your advice, said that in your case the burden would be on Obama to prove he is eligible for the office he already at the time held. I laughed and laughed.

In what body of law is determining who has the burden and whether they carried it decided by attorneys who lost all their cases?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Telling us what the Naturalization Act of 1790 said without at the same time telling us that the Naturalization Act of 1795 repealed that Act is downright fraudulent."

I'll respond to that, if you will permit me, in a separate comment.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"What is ironic about this is that you and others like you play the ignorance game with the hopes of gaining license to define a 'natural born citizen' any which way that suits your end."

In our time there was never any doubt that the native-born were Article II natural-born citizens, not until a certain hateful faction needed reasons why Barack Obama cannot be president. If I'm the one trying to define the term to suit my ends, how come you are the one that only started telling the rules different when you did not like who was winning?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

You said:

"Nationality flows from the head of the family to the children. The father is subject to the full jurisdiction of the national government, -not the mother. She cannot be drafted and sent to her death in war."

Do you really believe that if the nation really needed women's service in time of war for the sake of our national survival, that women would not be drafted to fight alone side men in any war?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes;

Unknown wrote: "In our time there was never any doubt that the native-born were Article II natural-born citizens."

That is an astonishingly incorrect claim. The statement in Minor regarding "others" about whom there were doubts made that perfectly plain, but...it probably has a great deal of validity because it is couched in "In our time".

Understand this, our time is an abysmally ignorant time, so whatever is the consensus view must be viewed with serious suspicion and questioned as to its legitimacy.

But our time is irrelevant and you should realize that. The only time that matters is the time before ignorance became so widespread. And that was back in the beginning of the nation.

Back then, it has been claimed and not refuted, only four States granted automatic naturalization at birth to children of foreign immigrants. They were their native-born "sons of the soil" as opposed to sons of Americans, i.e., State citizens.
Sons born of aliens were never considered to be natural born Americans and were never considered to be eligible to be President because they were born ineligible, -born subject to a foreign power.

It's analogy for most of American history was the son of a Catholic. Catholics were not to be trusted with the office of the President because they were subject first and foremost to the the "Vicar of Christ" -the Pope, and sons born to them were also, just as sons of foreign settlers were still subject to the monarch under whose reign they were born and raised.

No one born subject to a foreign power was ever considered to be a natural citizen of the United States because natural citizens have no divided obligation to their government and to another government as well.

Citizenship, whether American or foreign, involved inherited obligations to one's nation.

No one who inherits dual obligations to two nations is a natural citizen or either. He is a hybrid and his citizenship is complicated and his allegiance is compromised by direct foreign connections.

No one with direct foreign connections can be entrusted with the position of Command in Chief. He must be born as an American and nothing else.
Otherwise he is in the same category as naturalized citizens; being American but with foreign baggage. Only those without baggage are exceptions to the rule that "NO PERSON EXEPT...".

"No person" includes everyone not born of Americans. THAT is Natural Law.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Telling us what the Naturalization Act of 1790 said without at the same time telling us that the Naturalization Act of 1795 repealed that Act is downright fraudulent."

That was the U.S. Supreme Court. What I did, Mr. Apuzzo, was quote from your favorite case, Minor v. Happersett, just the next paragraph past where you stopped. I elided part, but nothing relevant to the issue here. Again:

"Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided ‘that any alien, being a free white person,’ might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, [...] and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since." Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875) at 168.

The Court told us of what the 1790 act said, literally including the provision, "the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens." About the acts that replaced it, including the repleal so important to you that you describe failure to tell of it as "fraudulent", the Court said: "These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since."

Got that? The Court says that the later acts retained the substance of the provision considering foreign-born children of citizens to be natural-born citizens. Mr. Apuzzo, you've written a great deal on how the rewording in the 1795 act that removed the term "natural born citizen" was a major correction. Wrong. It was a change in wording, but not, according to the Court, a change of substance.

You've told us that Minor v. Happersett informs us on the meaning of "natural-born citizen", so, Mr. Apuzzo, be informed: a provision considering foreign-born children of citizens as citizens retains the substance of a provision considering such children natural-born citizens.

"Natural-born citizen" must therefore mean citizen upon birth, for if it meant anything more, then the change between the 1790 act and the corresponding provisions of the later acts would not have retained the substance of the provision.

MichaelN said...

@ Stranger, who said...
"Please explain how your patriotic theory about allegiance plays out in the real world. It doesn't."

Reply:

But it DOES, it's just that you refuse to accept and face the truth, so you rant and rave ad nauseam the same drivel.

Now try to accept the FACTS, rather than get all caught-up in your fantasy-land ego-trip.

Document 6

James Madison, House of Representatives
22 May 1789Papers 12:179--82

"It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance.
Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion;...."

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_2_2s6.html

["James Madison, Jr. (March 16, 1751 – June 28, 1836) was an American statesman, political theorist and the fourth President of the United States (1809–1817). He is hailed as the "Father of the Constitution" for being instrumental in the drafting of the United States Constitution and as the key champion and author of the United States Bill of Rights.[2] He served as a politician much of his adult life."]

It was Madison who was responsible for the nationality act of 1795, where "natural born citizen" was dropped as being descriptive of any child born abroad of US citizen parents, instead they were born as "citizens of the United States".

It is obvious that the FACT that PLACE of birth as one very important element in weighing allegiance and it was the essential reason for the change away from the wording of the act of 1790.

MichaelN said...

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Telling us what the Naturalization Act of 1790 said without at the same time telling us that the Naturalization Act of 1795 repealed that Act is downright fraudulent."

That was the U.S. Supreme Court. What I did, Mr. Apuzzo, was quote from your favorite case, Minor v. Happersett, just the next paragraph past where you stopped. I elided part, but nothing relevant to the issue here. Again:

"Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided ‘that any alien, being a free white person,’ might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, [...] and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since." Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875) at 168.

The Court told us of what the 1790 act said, literally including the provision, "the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens." About the acts that replaced it, including the repleal so important to you that you describe failure to tell of it as "fraudulent", the Court said: "These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since."

Got that? The Court says that the later acts retained the substance of the provision considering foreign-born children of citizens to be natural-born citizens. Mr. Apuzzo, you've written a great deal on how the rewording in the 1795 act that removed the term "natural born citizen" was a major correction. Wrong. It was a change in wording, but not, according to the Court, a change of substance.

You've told us that Minor v. Happersett informs us on the meaning of "natural-born citizen", so, Mr. Apuzzo, be informed: a provision considering foreign-born children of citizens as citizens retains the substance of a provision considering such children natural-born citizens.

"Natural-born citizen" must therefore mean citizen upon birth, for if it meant anything more, then the change between the 1790 act and the corresponding provisions of the later acts would not have retained the substance of the provision.

-----------------------

Unknown, you are being dishonest still; here from the Minor court....
"These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since.
In 1855, however, the last provision was somewhat extended, and all persons theretofore born or thereafter to be born out of the limits of the jurisdiction of the United States, whose fathers were, or should be at the time of their birth, citizens of the United States, were declared to be citizens also. [n9]

As early as 1804 it was enacted by Congress that when any alien who had declared his intention to become a citizen in the manner provided by law died before he was actually naturalized, his widow and children should be considered as citizens of the United States, and entitled to all rights and privileges as such upon taking the necessary oath;"


Get that?

It says that the children of aliens are themselves aliens until such time as the father naturalizes or if the father dies after expressing intention to naturalize.

You lose again Unknown, you just can't accept the truth can you?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of II

You said:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You have made two concessions that put you in check mate."

Another self-awarded victory to add to your vast collection.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You concede that you do not know how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a 'natural born citizen.'"

I'll concede even more: Not only do I not know how they defined the Article II term, "natural born citizen", I have no good evidence that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did define it.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You also concede that Minor v. Happersett (1875) said that a child born in the country to parents who were its 'citizens' at the time of the child’s birth is a 'natural born citizen'"

Right again, and again I'll go farther: Minor v. Happersett said that no authority had expressed any doubt that a child born in the country to parents who were its 'citizens' at the time of the child’s birth is a 'natural born citizen', and Minor v. Happersett was correct to so say.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"(that is the order you insist on)."

Yes, for it is the direction of implication that actually appears.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You claim that what Minor said about a 'natural born citizen' is only one description of that clause and not its definition."

Close enough.
**************
Reply:

So as can be seen, you concede that you do not know how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizen.” You also concede that there is no doubt that a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural born citizen.” You also argue that both Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are “natural born citizens.” But it is plain to see that they do not satisfy the description of a “natural born citizen” to which you concede. I asked you to provide your evidence that there exists some other description of a “natural born citizen” that allows Obama and Cruz to be “natural born citizens” and you laugh at me, saying that I have the burden of proof to show that they are not. Well, it seems that you have a serious reading comprehension or integrity problem.

I just showed you that there is only one description of a “natural born citizen” to which you concede, which description without any doubt neither Obama nor Cruz meet. So what else do you want me to prove? Do you not think that it is now up to you to provide us with the evidence which demonstrates that there exists some other description of a “natural born citizen” which supports your position regarding Obama and Cruz? I do not understand how you want to escape your obligation to provide proof for what you assert by telling us about what some lower courts have done, especially when you do not contend that and demonstrate how those lower court provided the historical and legal evidence of this other theoretical description of a “natural born citizen.” You are losing the little credibility that you had by engaging in such behavior. If you think you are right, then show us. Don’t just tell us that you do not have to present proof of this other theoretical description of a “natural born citizen” because the courts did it already when we know they did not. Evading you obligation to provide evidence for what you contend does not get you anywhere in the arena of truth.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

You said:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Telling us what the Naturalization Act of 1790 said without at the same time telling us that the Naturalization Act of 1795 repealed that Act is downright fraudulent."

I'll respond to that, if you will permit me, in a separate comment.

*************
Reply:

Be sure to address also that the change in the Nationality Act of 1795, from "natural born citizen" found in the Naturalization Act of 1790 to "citizen of the United States" found in the 1795 Act, not only proves that our early Congress (with James Madison leading the effort and with President George Washington’s approval) considered place of birth necessary in the "natural born citizen" equation, but also proves that our early Congress did not view any such child as a “natural born citizen,” but rather only as a “citizen.” Congress was well aware that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, it was not sufficient to be a “citizen” to be President, for no person except a “natural born citizen” could be President.” The Third Congress calling those foreign-born children “citizens” rather than “natural born citizens” and knowing without any doubt that only a “natural born citizen” could be President, speaks volumes about how early Congress defined a “natural born citizen.”

So the First Congress, only because of birth to U.S. citizen parents was willing to provide through a naturalization act that those foreign-born children “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” But this was naturalization language and did not mean that those foreign-born children were true “natural born citizens.” The Third Congress decided that because they were not born in the United States and to avoid any confusion regarding Presidential eligibility, those foreign-born children born to U.S. citizen parents could be “citizens,” but not “natural born citizens.”

On top of all this is the fact that early Congress, in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.

So, we can conclude from this Congressional activity that our early Congress, which included many Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, with the approval of President George Washington, defined a “natural born citizen” as a child born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents and that there was no other definition or description of the clause. This evidence is incontrovertible since it comes from President George Washington and our early Congress.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

Your quote of Minor’s treatment of the 1790 Act is dishonest. Here is what Minor said:

“Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided "that any alien, being a free white person," might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, AND THAT THE CHILDREN OF SUCH PERSONS SO NATURALIZED, DWELLING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, BEING UNDER TWENTY-ONE YEARS OF AGE AT THE TIME OF SUCH NATURALIZATION, SHOULD ALSO BE CONSIDERED CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES, and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. [n8] These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since. In 1855, however, the last provision was somewhat extended, and all persons theretofore born or thereafter to be born out of the limits of the jurisdiction of the United States, whose fathers were, or should be at the time of their birth, citizens of the United States, were declared to be citizens also. [n9] ”

Minor at 168.

The language that you left out in your quote (under the guise that it is not relevant to our discussion) which I have produced in all caps shows that Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as aliens and in need of naturalization. This is incontrovertible proof that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers considered a child born in the United States to alien parents at the time of his or her birth not even a “citizen,” let alone a “natural born citizen.” Unknown, you are really at the bottom of the bottom.

I’ll address your Minor “word” versus “substance” argument in a separate post.

Unknown said...

Carlyle said:
"It seems to me that the Founders had every reason to be exclusionary and would have easily and obviously believed that NBC had an element of ‘soil’. But I am willing to let that rest - IF we can all agree and go kill the dragon, so to speak.”

Stranger/Adrien Nash replied,
“Amen to that. I've never seen any reason to beat a dead horse when Obama's ineligibility results from foreign paternity alone, regardless of where he was born.”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. followed:
"But then in great Adrien Nash style, you missed Carlyle’s point, which is that there is no need to continue to debate whether place of birth is a necessary element of being a 'natural born citizen' ('let that rest') for regardless of where Obama was born, he is still not a 'natural born citizen' because he was not born to U.S. 'citizen' parents (his father was not a U.S. 'citizen' when Obama was born), you tell us that the place of birth debate is a 'dead horse' (as though you are the victor), and you still continue trying to convince us (after just telling us that the debate was a 'dead horse') of your theory that place of birth is not a required element of being a 'natural born citizen.'"

You guys are a hoot. The one horse you all want to ride has been dead since before any of us were born. Whether birth in the U.S. is necessary has been debated in our time, but its sufficiency was clear and settled. We Monty Python Obots get to say that as though we are the victors. We are. Told you so.

You are peddling a dead parrot.

Unknown said...

The Naturalisation act of 1795 said that children of US citizens born outside of US are citizens of the United States, not natural born citizens and seeing as though George Washington signed off on NA 1795 then i will take his word for it that such children are citizens only and not eligible for CiC or VP but eligible to serve in Congress according to the US Constitution. Why dont you obots go by what NA 1795 and A2 say instead of what you think it means or more likely lying about it.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote @ a.r.nash, who said...
"Please explain how your patriotic theory about allegiance plays out in the real world. It doesn't."

Reply:

But it DOES, it's just that you refuse to accept and face the truth, so you rant and rave ad nauseam the same drivel. ~ ~ ~

How pathetically juvenile. I asked you to EXPLAIN!!! how it plays out, -not stoop to the insults of one with NO explanation whatsoever but plenty of venom.

One cannot have an intelligent argument with one who cannot even defend his own position with any sort of explanation. Saying "It DOES." is NOT an explanation of anything.

If you cannot explain how native-birth vs. foreign birth plays out in real-world differences, and also cannot explain in the slightest why the founding fathers included the presidential eligibility language in the 1790 Act, then you need to excuse yourself from the discussion as one with nothing at all to offer.

About Madison's statement; you need to grasp three important facts: (1) His view as a Representative of Virginia was not a pontification on Natural Law and its principle of natural membership. It was nothing more than a personal impression of (2) someone who was a Virginian!

The viewpoint of Virginians was British, NOT American. Virginia had long considered children of immigrants to be colonial subjects and State citizens as "sons of the soil".

That was not the practice in most of America but it was ingrained in the thinking of Virginians, until, that is, one became President. Then they learned that no child of an immigrant is a natural born citizen and eligible to be President. They learned that native-birth was irrelevant to natural citizenship, and they changed their tune, as he did when writing as Publius during his presidency regarding national policy about natural citizenship.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Your response to Unknown is disingenuous. The clause to which you refer:

AND THAT THE CHILDREN OF SUCH PERSONS SO NATURALIZED, DWELLING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, BEING UNDER TWENTY-ONE YEARS OF AGE AT THE TIME OF SUCH NATURALIZATION, SHOULD ALSO BE CONSIDERED CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES

clearly deals with the foreign-born children of such immigrants (it certainly doesn't specifically include native born children). The native born children of immigrants are citizens at birth by the 14th Amendment and, by extension, the Constitution as written (as you referred above to the discussions regarding the drafting of the Amendment, I assume that you are aware that it merely extended the existing rule to cover the former slaves). This being the case, Unknown's exclusion of the clause as irrelevant was perfectly reasonable, while your claim that the clause wouldn't have applied to anyone under the obot theory (also known as the US Constitution) is invalid on its face. Which means that you have in no way impeached Unknown's argument that subsequent naturalization acts didn't change the substance of the 1790 act. Which is pretty devastating to your overall argument.

But you already knew that.

Just like you know that once the court in Minor established that native-born children of citizens were citizens, the rest of the discussion on citizenship was just dicta. All the court needed to determine was that Virginia Minor was a citizen in order to rule on her case.

Just like you also know that Wong Kim Ark, to the extent it differs from Minor, supersedes it.

Just like you are aware that all of the parties to Wong were aware that Mr. Wong was either a natural born citizen or not a citizen at all.

Just like you know that if you argued your frivolous theories in court you would be running the risk of sanctions.

Just so you know I'm a "Monty obot"...

Watching Mr. Nash and Mario debate is like watching two black knights go at each other:

"Your arm's off!"

"Tis but a scratch. You've got no legs!"

"It's just a flesh wound. Come over here and I'll gnaw your ears off!"

"..."

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

You said: "It is obvious that the FACT that PLACE of birth as one very important element in weighing allegiance and it was the essential reason for the change away from the wording of the act of 1790.", yet this was not what the quote from Madison which you used to support your argument said. The "Father of the Constitution" said that place of birth was the most certain criterion and what we use in the US. Doesn't Madison saying that there is no need to consider parentage if we know someone was born in the country kind of destroy your theory?

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

As near as I can tell, every theory that you've presented can be proven wrong by assuming that it is true. Congratulations, that can't be easy to do.

For example, you made the argument that since naturalization was the legal fiction of making someone "natural", that "born" was the operative term. In other words, anyone born a citizen (by whatever means they became natural) is a natural born citizen. Nice job, Obot!

Or your claim that no one can be the natural born citizen of two (or more) countries or be President with dual allegiances, when, by your own arguments, the child of US citizens born in England would be a natural born US citizen as well as (by Calvin's case) a natural born subject of the UK. As for the presidency, Jefferson had French citizenship as did several other Founders, Chester Arthur had English citizenship (although it may have expired), and Spiro Agnew was a natural born Greek citizen every day of his life. None of these cases caused a disability to the eligibility of these men.

I do find your critiques of Mario's theories highly entertaining, however. You effectively debunk Mario's ridiculous arguments only to replace them with even more ludicrous theories of your own.

Oh, by the way, it wasn't 4 states which recognized jus soli citizenship---it was 13.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario, your brain is becoming addled. You completely mischaracterized the Minor quote:
"AND THAT THE CHILDREN OF SUCH PERSONS SO NATURALIZED, DWELLING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES,..."

To which you responded: " This is incontrovertible proof that the Founders,..considered a child BORN in the United States to alien parents at the time of his or her birth..."

When exactly did "dwelling within the U.S." (as an immigrant child) become synonymous with "born in the U.S..."?

Accept the fact that the Act makes no direct reference whatsoever to children born in the U.S. Instead, it seems to make no distinction between children born abroad under a foreign monarch and those born in one of the States. It treats them equally as being foreigners because they came from a foreign father.

That absence of any differentiation supports your position that those "born within the U.S." (while not specially mentioned) were no different from those born in foreign lands.
One cannot just assume that the founders were too dumb to considered both circumstances of birth and thus overlooked one or the other. They must have been fully aware of both and yet lumped them in together because by American policy American citizenship for foreigners only came via naturalization, regardless of where they were born.

Unknown made a leap of false logic with:
"Natural-born citizen must therefore mean citizen upon birth,".

"Upon" means "at birth". No person who is a citizen upon birth is eligible to be President because they are a naturalized citizen thanks to the Wong opinion.

Only those (the 97%) who are citizens BY birth are eligible. That means citizens by the Law of Nature and not by human law and its allowance.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario, your brain is becoming addled. You completely mischaracterized the Minor quote:
"AND THAT THE CHILDREN OF SUCH PERSONS SO NATURALIZED, DWELLING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES,..."

To which you responded: " This is incontrovertible proof that the Founders,..considered a child BORN in the United States to alien parents at the time of his or her birth..."

When exactly did "dwelling within the U.S." (as an immigrant child) become synonymous with "born in the U.S..."?

Accept the fact that the Act makes no direct reference whatsoever to children born in the U.S. Instead, it seems to make no distinction between children born abroad under a foreign monarch and those born in one of the States. It treats them equally as being foreigners because they came from a foreign father.

That absence of any differentiation supports your position that those "born within the U.S." (while not specially mentioned) were no different from those born in foreign lands.
One cannot just assume that the founders were too dumb to considered both circumstances of birth and thus overlooked one or the other. They must have been fully aware of both and yet lumped them in together because by American policy American citizenship for foreigners only came via naturalization, regardless of where they were born.

Unknown made a leap of false logic with:
"Natural-born citizen must therefore mean citizen upon birth,".

"Upon" means "at birth". No person who is a citizen upon birth is eligible to be President because they are a naturalized citizen thanks to the Wong opinion.

Only those (the 97%) who are citizens BY birth are eligible. That means citizens by the Law of Nature and not by human law and its allowance.

Stranger said...

Every President in history has been a Citizen of the United States with the exception of Barry Obama.

Every President in history has been a natural born citizen of the United States except Chester Arthur and Barry Obama.

Every natural born citizen is a CITIZEN of The United States, but not every Citizen of The United States is a natural born citizen (about 3-4% are not).

Nationality Acts dealt with the differentiation between those who are not citizens of the U.S. and those who are. Those who meet the requirements are CITIZENS of THE UNITED STATES, while those who don't are aliens.

In no act ever written by Congress are American children born outside of the U.S. declared to be foreigners and not American citizens. Any presumption that any act denoted such an position is illogical, unfounded, and erroneous.

Naturalization acts are not the place for dealing with the issue of presidential eligibility since they are not about the presidency but about CITIZENSHIP alone.
The language of all U.S. naturalization acts, in ordering that all foreign-born American children be recognized as American Citizens, contains not a single hint that recognizing them as "CITIZENS of THE UNITED STATES" indicates that they are naturalized children of foreigners (among the 2-3%) and not natural American citizens via their American parents.

Only foreigners and their children can be natural-ized, -NOT Americans and theirs.
American parents produce American children, -naturally, -by the Law of Nature.

Any and all assertions that being recognized as a CITIZEN of THE UNITED STATES means one cannot therefore be a natural born citizen of the United States is brain dead and unworthy of reply.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown, a/k/a NotLinda,

How can we tell that you have lost the "natural born citizen" debate? Rather than being able to defend your position on the meaning of a "natural born citizen" and to base your opinion on relevant historical and legal evidence, you tell us that some lower court judges and some law professors have already decided the matter based on how a "natural born citizen" is defined "in our time." Apart that you apply the wrong time period for interpreting the Constitution, what you say would apply only for Barack Obama and Ted Cruz who I have shown, based on the correct time period for interpreting the Constitution, are both not "natural born citizens.'

We have seen from what flows naturally and logically from the American Revolution and the historical and legal record that the only consensus definition of a “natural born citizen” of the United States that has ever existed in our nation is the one that is found at common law which is a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. See among other authorities, Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Upon their birth, these children are not only “citizens” themselves like their parents, however their parents may have acquired that status prior to their children’s birth, but also “natural born citizens.” This does not mean that a “citizen” of the United States cannot be a “natural born citizen” of the United States, for all “natural born citizens” of the United States are “citizens” of the United States, just like all sheep dogs are dogs. Rather, it is that positive laws that define “citizens” of the United States and which do not also define a “natural born citizen” of the United States simply do not define a “natural born citizen” of the United States, but rather only other “citizens” of the United States, just like laws that define dogs and which do not also define a sheep dog simply do not define a sheep dog but rather only other dogs. It is in this latter sense that a “citizen” of the United States, who is so specifically defined by some positive law, who does not also satisfy the constitutional common law definition of a “natural born citizen” of the United States, is not a “natural born citizen” of the United States. From this it follows a fortiori that all “natural born citizens” of the United States are “citizens” of the United States, but not all “citizens” of the United States are “natural born citizens” of the United States.

De facto President Barack Obama may be a “citizen” of the United States (if born in the United States) under the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress, and Senator Ted Cruz is a “citizen” of the United States under Act of Congress, but since those positive laws define only a “citizen” of the United States and not also a constitutional common law “natural born citizen” of the United States (the Fourteenth Amendment could have changed the constitutional common law definition of a “natural born citizen” of the United States but it did not, and an Act of Congress, not being a constitutional amendment, cannot change that definition), and they satisfy only the requirements of these positive laws and not also the requirements of the constitutional common law which is the only source of the definition of a “natural born citizen” of the United States (even if Obama was born in the United States, he was born to a U.S. “citizen” mother and a non-U.S. “citizen” father and Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. “citizen” mother and a non-U.S. “citizen” father), they are not also “natural born citizens” of the United States. Simply stated, Obama and Cruz may be “citizens” of the United States under positive law, but they are not also “natural born citizens” of the United States under controlling constitutional common law.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/ Adrien Nash,

So I see that you agree with me that the early naturalization acts did not differentiate between children born in or out of the United States if those children were born to alien parents. The acts treated those children as alien born in either situation. Again, this is incontrovertible proof that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not view a child born in the United States to alien parents at the time of his or her birth as a “citizen” of the United States, let alone a “natural born citizen” of the United States.

But you are a bit confused here.

You said:

“Mario, your brain is becoming addled. You completely mischaracterized the Minor quote:
"AND THAT THE CHILDREN OF SUCH PERSONS SO NATURALIZED, DWELLING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES,..."

To which you responded: " This is incontrovertible proof that the Founders,..considered a child BORN in the United States to alien parents at the time of his or her birth..."

When exactly did "dwelling within the U.S." (as an immigrant child) become synonymous with "born in the U.S..."?”
***************

My reply:

I never said that “dwelling within the U.S.” is synonymous with “born in the U.S.” The dwelling part becomes important for minors who were born either in or out of the United States. Those minors became “citizens of the United States” by naturalization upon the naturalization of their parents, but only if the minor child was dwelling within the United States at that time. See the James McClure citizenship case (1811) and the James Madison Administration resolution of that case upon which I have written at length.

“Publius” (probably James Madison who was President then) on October 7, 1811, commenting and applying the Naturalization Act of 1802 (which was the same as the Naturalization Act of 1790 and 1795 in the particular at issue) in The Alexandria Herald, concerning the “Case of James McClure,” stated:

“Mr. Rodman hints, that it would have been sufficient for James McClure to have been born in the United States—he is mistaken. The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. The law of Virginia, of 1792, does—for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen, but the U. States’ act does not go so far. A man must be naturalized to make his children such.”

Publius, in 1811, living when the acts were passed by Congress, would know what Congress intended when it passed the naturalization acts of 1790, 1795, and 1802. In that connection, Publius tells us that where a child was born was not controlling when it came to U.S. citizenship. Regardless of where the child was born, if the child’s parents were aliens, the child was alien born. Regardless of where the child was born, the child’s parents had to naturalize in order to make their children citizens. The historical record tells us that Secretary of State, James Monroe, who was serving the James Madison Administration, eventually declared McClure alien born, but a “Citizen of the United States,” not because he was born in South Carolina on April 21, 1785, but because a few months after he was born, his British father naturalized as a “citizen of the United States” and McClure was dwelling in the United States at that time. I will take Publius’ and the James Madison’s Administration’s word in 1811 on what the acts meant rather than Unknown’s and the Obots’ today.

For more information on the James McClure case, see my brief filed in the Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama Ballot Challenge in the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania, accessed at http://www.scribd.com/doc/83104811/Kerchner-Laudenslager-v-Obama-Ballot-Challenge-Brief-on-Behalf-of-Objectors-Filed-28Feb2012 .

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

The obamunists love to quote all sorts of non-authoritative sources but keep themselves blind and deaf to the McClure statement by Publius.

They cling to State laws like that of Virgina which allowed automatic naturalization for their immigrants' native-born children, while deliberately trying to remain ignorant of Federal policy regarding citizenship.
TIt was in conflict with the laws of such States. Guess which one held authority regarding national recognition of citizenship and presidential eligibility?

National policy viewed children of aliens as aliens via their alien father. When he renounced all allegiance to his foreign monarch and nation (openly naming him), and swore allegiance to the Constitution, he could become an American, and his children through him. Even if not present in the U.S. at naturalization, his foreign children became citizens upon arrival in America, but only his children born after naturalization were considered natural born U.S. citizens and eligible to be President.
That was because they were born with no direct foreign political roots. They were naturally Americans because they were born of American. That's Natural Law.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash, -you made the argument that since naturalization was the legal fiction of making someone "natural", that "born" was the operative term. In other words, anyone born a citizen (by whatever means they became natural) is a natural born citizen."

That is a form of logic, but it is juvenile logic that ignores reality.
"Born" is not identified by me as "operative". It is one of two needed words, words which combine natural citizenship with the concept of being born with citizenship.
Understand this; natural citizens are not born "with" citizenship but instead as born "as" citizens. It's all about origin. The natural citizen's origin is citizenship via nature, (natural transmission via parentage), while the citizenship of a "citizen AT/FROM/UPON birth" is via law, -not Nature.

Natural born citizens are not citizens by law, they are citizens by conception, by blood connection, -by the immutable "Principle of Natural Membership". That is Natural Law. Human law is NOT Natural Law.
97% of Americans are citizens by no U.S. law whatsoever because they are citizens by inheritance.

The President can be neither a "natural citizen" nor a "born citizen" because both are ambiguous terms since they have a natural version and a legal version.

The legal version is disallowed from consideration for President by the requirement that one be born as a natural citizen. That is in contradistinction to being considered a natural citizen by legal fiction.

Aliens' native-born children are not "natural citizens" BY birth but by instead the American & British citizenship equality fiction-of-law.
They are not citizens BY birth but citizens by law. They are not natural citizens by birth but by a fiction of law.
My challenge to all: explain why John Jay underlined the word "born".

There is no explanation other than the one that occurred to me after three years of this journey.

If you cannot put forward any explanation then you should acknowledge that you are in the dark and have no way to refute or dispute what I've written as to his reason. It stands as the only explanation.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slartibartfast said...
"The native born children of immigrants are citizens at birth by the 14th Amendment".

First; "immigrants", YES! Second; Non-immigrants...NO!

As originally conceived, the amendment left both as non-citizens. But your claims became true following the Wong opinion which itself is the reason that they are citizens, -not the Amendment. The court changed the original meaning of the Amendment.
The court made them citizens. By the amendment, they were not citizens.
That is revealed by the conscription act of 1862 which exempted all alien immigrants and their native-born children from the draft for the Civil War. They were both classified as aliens, -including the native-born sons.

Why? Because they were subject to a foreign power and had not sworn allegiance to the U.S. Constitution nor renounced their allegiance to their foreign sovereign. THEY WERE NOT AMERICANS BY FEDERAL POLICY.
A few years later the Civil Rights Act of 1866 was written, followed by the 14th Amendment, -written in the same era and almost by the same Congress.

You and your ilk believe the 14th Amendment reads: "All persons born in the United States, -within the jurisdiction thereof, is a citizen..." Guess what? It DOES NOT SAY THAT!

Place of birth is only one of two necessary criteria for citizenship. The other one is that the father be fully subject to the authority of the national government in the same manner as a citizen is subject.
Immigrants were not so subject when the 14th was written, and only became subject after the Wong opinion.
The interpretation then became that if the child is subject, then the father must be subject also because subjection to the duties of citizenship flows through him.

After that, all alien immigrants and their alien children could be drafted and sent to war.

But non-immigrants (like Barry's father), could not because they were/are guests of the U.S. government. Guests are exempt, and subjection to the duties of citizenship does no flow through them to their American-birthed children.
That is why Barry is not even a U.S. citizen. The 14th Amendment only applies to children of immigrants, -not to guests, whether foreign diplomats, Native Americans (before 1920) tourists, students, and every other type of foreign visitor.

Without subjection there is no citizenship. THAT is the 14th Amendment, numbskull (regardless of the ignorant consensus opinion of the last century).

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...
MichaelN,

You said: "It is obvious that the FACT that PLACE of birth as one very important element in weighing allegiance and it was the essential reason for the change away from the wording of the act of 1790.", yet this was not what the quote from Madison which you used to support your argument said. The "Father of the Constitution" said that place of birth was the most certain criterion and what we use in the US. Doesn't Madison saying that there is no need to consider parentage if we know someone was born in the country kind of destroy your theory?"

----------------
Reply:

The point is proven that to the Framers and Founders, place of birth was/is a measure of allegiance as was/is also parents' citizenship/allegiance.

Madison did not say "there is no need to consider parentage if we know someone was born in the country".

Madison was speaking in the context of a person who was claiming eligibility as a "citizen of the United States" who was aiming to gain a seat in the US house of representatives; in this matter there was no consideration of Article II "natural born Citizen" or eligibility for the office of POTUS.

To be eligible for the office of POTUS, one must not only be a "citizen of the United States", but such a one must also be one who is a "natural born Citizen".

"Place" and "parents" were/are both certain criteria, but Madison says that place is the "most certain", (incorrect grammar when comparing only two criteria, i.e. should be said as "more") but this was in the context of measuring allegiance of a "citizen of the United States", NOT as a measure of allegiance for the office of POTUS, which we know, by the distinction made in Article II of the USC, is of a higher allegiance than a mere "citizen of the United States".

Madison states that BOTH "place" and "parents" are "certain" criteria in weighing allegiance, to determine citizenship, opining that "place" is MORE ("most")certain and suffices to establish allegiance of a "citizen of the United States" without any reference to "natural born Citizen".

[You use “more” when comparing two things.
You use “most” when comparing three or more things]

Now what do you say about how "certain" allegiance must be in consideration for eligibility for the office of POTUS, where BOTH "place" AND "parents" are combined to weigh allegiance?

Highest allegiance?

i.e. "place" may be more certain to measure allegiance for "citizen", but BOTH "place" AND "parents" are the more/most certain measure of a higher allegiance.

Why do you have such a problem grasping the fact that the Framers' common-sense imperative was to have only US citizens with the highest possible allegiance with the least possible foreign ties, be eligible for the office of POTUS?

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...
"Mario,

Your response to Unknown is disingenuous. The clause to which you refer:

AND THAT THE CHILDREN OF SUCH PERSONS SO NATURALIZED, DWELLING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, BEING UNDER TWENTY-ONE YEARS OF AGE AT THE TIME OF SUCH NATURALIZATION, SHOULD ALSO BE CONSIDERED CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES

clearly deals with the foreign-born children of such immigrants (it certainly doesn't specifically include native born children). The native born children of immigrants are citizens at birth by the 14th Amendment and, by extension, the Constitution as written (as you referred above to the discussions regarding the drafting of the Amendment, I assume that you are aware that it merely extended the existing rule to cover the former slaves). This being the case, Unknown's exclusion of the clause as irrelevant was perfectly reasonable, while your claim that the clause wouldn't have applied to anyone under the obot theory (also known as the US Constitution) is invalid on its face. Which means that you have in no way impeached Unknown's argument that subsequent naturalization acts didn't change the substance of the 1790 act. Which is pretty devastating to your overall argument."

--------------------
Reply:
It DOES NOT "clearly deals with the foreign-born children of such immigrants", no distinction is made.

Without any distinction between place of birth, it means ALL children of aliens.

Furthermore the nationality/naturalization acts of 1790, 1795, etc, predated the 14th Amendment of 1868, so your feeble, pathetic argument is not supported by your desperate reference to the 14th Amendment.

Here's what the US Citizen & Immigration Service had to say on the matter of two types of born US citizen per research on the part of Leo Donofrio....

"Interpretation 324.2 (a)(3) provides:

“The repatriation provisions of these two most recent enactments also apply to a native- and natural-born citizen woman who expatriated herself by marriage to an alien…” (Emphasis added.)

Then, Interpretation 324.2(a)(7) provides:

“(7) Restoration of citizenship is prospective . Restoration to citizenship under any one of the three statutes is not regarded as having erased the period of alienage that immediately preceded it.

The words “shall be deemed to be a citizen of the United States to the same extent as though her marriage to said alien had taken place on or after September 22, 1922″, as they appeared in the 1936 and 1940 statutes, are prospective and restore the status of native-born or natural-born citizen (whichever existed prior to the loss) as of the date citizenship was reacquired.” "



And again, Interpretation 324.2(b) provides:

“The effect of naturalization under the above statutes was not to erase the previous period of alienage, but to restore the person to the status if naturalized, native, or natural-born citizen, as determined by her status prior to loss.”....

Kev, what do you suppose this means? (from Minor v Happersett)

"As early as 1804 it was enacted by Congress that when any alien who had declared his intention to become a citizen in the manner provided by law died before he was actually naturalized, his widow and children should be considered as citizens of the United States, and entitled to all rights and privileges as such upon taking the necessary oath;"

Well?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote; "Here's what the US Citizen & Immigration Service had to say on the matter of two types of born US citizen per research on the part of Leo Donofrio..."

To set the record straight, Donofrio was only the messenger. He was referring to what I had discovered via extended research. The unacknowledged source was linked to on the top of his article. It linked to my site.
You would know that if you bothered to read my blog. It's right there on the home page, and a whole lot more. But don't expand your knowledge. You already have all of the answers.
http://obama--nation.com

Unknown said...

Children of aliens dwelling in the US became citizens of the US after alien father naturalised so now we know when children of aliens became US citizens. We already know that children born in US and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are 14th amd citizens of the US and not 2nd amd natural born citizens. The slaves became citizens only under the 14th.

Unknown said...

Children of aliens dwelling in the US became citizens of the US after alien father naturalised so now we know when children of aliens became US citizens. We already know that children born in US and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are 14th amd citizens of the US and not 2nd amd natural born citizens. The slaves became citizens only under the 14th.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
[quoting Minor v. Happersett quoting the Naturalization act of 1790]
AND THAT THE CHILDREN OF SUCH PERSONS SO NATURALIZED, DWELLING WITHIN THE UNITED STATES, BEING UNDER TWENTY-ONE YEARS OF AGE AT THE TIME OF SUCH NATURALIZATION, SHOULD ALSO BE CONSIDERED CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES,

The language that you left out in your quote (under the guise that it is not relevant to our discussion) which I have produced in all caps shows that Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as aliens and in need of naturalization."

*****

That's nonsense. Those are the words I elided, but they just plain do not say what you claim. You're making it up.

Native birth is one of several ways that children, under 21, could already be U.S. citizens at the time their parents naturalize. The children could even be natural-born citizens meeting your criteria of having been born in the U.S. to parents who were both citizens at the time. The parents could expatriate and repatriate.

That's no problem for the statute, because it nowhere says that the children cannot already be citizens. You made it up.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown is evading and deflecting the truth that is staring him in the face. This is what his defensive mind is reading as opposed to what was actually written:

"AND THAT THE CHILDREN OF SUCH PERSONS SO NATURALIZED, born outside of the United States, BEING UNDER TWENTY-ONE YEARS OF AGE AT THE TIME OF SUCH NATURALIZATION, SHOULD ALSO BE CONSIDERED CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES,"

In his detoured mind, the differentiation regarding the children is between those who were native-born and those who were foreign born.
But, if you read what is actually written, you find no differentiation between children nor mention of their birth place.

Why does unknown accuse Mario of seeing something that isn't there when he is the one inventing a dichotomy that doesn't exist? Answer: to protect his deeply embrace ideological stance. It's a case of the campfire pot calling the porcelain teapot black.

Unless an American man was born and raised in one of the few states that allowed "sons of the soil" citizenship, in the mind of the men of that time, aliens were aliens no matter where they were born.

Those other American minds were warped by their State laws and they didn't grasp the truth about the American nation as a whole and its fundamental historical original policy regarding alien-born children.
THEY WERE ALIENS LIKE THEIR FATHER. No one owing allegiance to a foreign sovereign could be an American nor be born as an American.

Children were produced from the mold of their father, inheriting his nationality. And dual nationality was an abomination just like BIGAMY.
Note: Naturalization did NOT involve merely an oath of allegiance to the Constitution. It also involve the total abject rejection of all foreign authority over one's life and loyalty.

Children born to men who had not done that were not Americans because they belonged to and were the product of their father, made in his foreign image.
It was also U.S. policy for American children no matter where they were born. It was ONE policy worldwide for both. Children were what their father was, whether Foreigner or American.

It is a form of mental blindness to think that foreigners produced foreign children in America but Americans produced foreign children outside of America rather than American children like their father.
THERE WAS ONLY ONE POLICY FOR BOTH! LIKE FATHER, LIKE SON.

Stranger said...

a.r. nash writes:

An Analogy:

All plants = all humans
All trees = all "U.S. persons"
All fruit trees = all U.S. Citizens
All Apple trees = all Natural born Americans

The UNITED STATES is an orchard having 97 apple trees (the natural born citizen population percentage) along with one orange tree (domestically-birthed alien-born citizen children of Green Card immigrants)
It also has one small cherry tomato plant (the children of NON-immigrant foreigners who were NOT born "SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION THEREOF" and are NOT U.S. citizens per the 14th Amendment.

Barry Obama is of that bush. He is not an apple and he is not an orange. He is a foreigner since he has never been naturalized, -or has he? Since all information regarding his past is secret, we can't be certain. But it would only make him eligible for offices other than the presidency.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

An Analogy:

All plants = all humans
All trees = all "U.S. persons"
All fruit trees = all U.S. Citizens
All Apple trees = all Natural born Americans

The UNITED STATES is an orchard having 97 apple trees (the natural born citizen population percentage) along with one orange tree (domestically-birthed alien-born citizen children of Green Card immigrants)
It also has one small cherry tomato plant (the children of NON-immigrant foreigners who were NOT born "SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION THEREOF" and are NOT U.S. citizens per the 14th Amendment.

Barry Obama is of that bush. He is not an apple and he is not an orange. He is a foreigner since he has never been naturalized, -or has he? Since all information regarding his past is secret, we can't be certain. But it would only make him eligible for offices other than the presidency.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Apuzzo,

"For more information on the James McClure case"

I read your brief on the McClure case. Interesting that he wasn't arrested until 1810 considering that the case of the "American" ship Horizon was resolved in 1807 (Armstrong letter to Madison, 11/12/1807). Perhaps there was more to the case than a simple shipwreck.

Armstrong to Madison, Sept, 1807

"Being on the subject of consuls ...is Aron Vail of L’Orient. I will say nothing of this man’s bankruptcy both of fortune & character (which have been long known) but of an Act of recent date which ought alone to remove him."

[skip]

"There is now at Madrid a naturalized American, with respect to whom and his business, it becomes my duty to put you on the alert. This Man’s name is McClure. ,,,He is at once the Cap. of an American registered Ship and a proprietor in East Florida, ...he organized (as I am credibly informed) while here, a society for the purpose of out-bidding the U. S. in the purchase of the Floridas ...This information was given by A. Vail, a consul of the U. S. for the port of L’Orient, to a person of respectability whom he invited to join in the Speculation & who communicated it to me. Vail is the Agent of McClure in prosecuting a prize cause here. You will best know, what use can be made of this discovery at Madrid."

Anonymous said...

Mr. Apuzzo,

In a update from Armstrong to Madison on Oct 1st, Armstrong writes:

"I have received an answer to my letter of the 31st. of August from Mr. Erving, by which it appears, that the speculating land Company of which Vail is a member & McClure an Agent, is made up of Liverpool merchants. The Paris branch, consists only of American Renegades. One of their objects was to establish in the Floridas a great depot of Slaves, to be smuggled into our Southern & western country."

Why was McClure arrest in L'Orient when the ship ran aground in Morlax? Could it be because Vale was the consul in L'Orient and McClure and Vale were trying to buy the Floridas? Was this why Armstrong helped the French to arrest McClure? to eliminate the competition?

BTW, Armstrong was later accused by Fulwar Skipwith of also being invlived in land speculation in the Floridas

"I have just been informed that M. Bowdoin (before he left Paris) in conjunction with M. Skipwith & by means which I shall take care to investigate, did obtain from an Irish ex-priest of the name of Somers a deposition, in which an attempt is made to implicate me in a land Speculation, connected with the then intended purchase of the Floridas, and conducted by Mess. Parker, OMealy and le Ray de Chaumont." May, 1810

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

The first Congress of the United States had to correct a deficiency in the Constitution after it was pointed out to them, probably by Thomas Jefferson or by John Adams, or both. They were at the time of its authoring serving as American Ambassadors in Paris and London, accompanied by they wives and children.

One or both of them may have had a son while serving abroad, and if so, they would have wondered what the Constitution would say about their political nature and eligibility to serve their country. Would it recognize their right to serve in the legislature of the United States? Would it recognize their right to serve in the judiciary of the United States? Would it recognize their right to serve as top executive of the executive branch?

The answers to the first two questions was clearly answered in the Constitution, but the answer to the third question was missing because it required something more than simple citizenship. It required natural citizenship by birth but did not make it clear that that which made an American a natural citizen was blood, and not borders. So the Constitution had a deficiency of silence on that ambiguous issue.

The first Congress knew of this and intended to, and did, correct that deficiency by stating in the clearest language possible that American children were all natural citizens by birth regardless of where that birth took place. It mandated that children of U.S. citizens, born beyond our borders, "shall be considered as natural born citizens".

It didn't say they were to be recognized as simply citizens of the United States because of that there was absolutely no doubt. Children inherited their father's nationality whether they were foreigners or Americans. That was the principle of Natural Law that was a fundamental America State policy. That was never questioned by anyone.
The question was whether or not everyone would realize that fact then and in the future. Some people might not grasp the fact that those born as Americans were Americans by nature, by blood, by inheritance, and not by legal allowance of government.

continued...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues:

Those possessed of the misconception that their nationality was dependent on the acquiescence of government would erroneously presume that foreign-born Americans might be some sort of citizen other than what the Constitution required in order to serve one's country as its top executive.
To prevent such erroneous thinking, it was decided to spell out the fact in explicitly constitutional language by stating that foreign-born Americans were to be recognized as that which they were born being, i.e., natural born citizens.

They were not mentioned in the Naturalization Act of 1790 to assure that they would be recognized as citizens and not aliens. Rather, they were mentioned solely for the purpose of making it clear to all in the most permanent way they could that American children born of American citizens were all the same; -equally eligible to serve as head of the executive branch and U.S. military.

It had to be made clear for those people who might have position of authority and who were indoctrinated with the British imperial policy regarding who was born as a subject of the king, that natural born citizens were all persons born of citizens.

They thought that after they inserted that clarification into their Naturalization Act, that the matter would be settled permanently, but a later Congress was ignorant of their purpose for inserting that reference and so they assumed that the correct issue wasn't presidential eligibility but was simply asserting that foreign-born American children were Americans and not foreigners.

Their assumption was wrong, and their alteration to the first nationality act passed by a Congress composed of many of the founding fathers, completely undid the purpose for mentioning foreign-born American children. That purpose was solely because of the issue of presidential eligibility and the silence regarding it in the Constitution.
It was a correction of an over-sight.

Nationality law is only written to deal with foreigners and their children. If the father was a foreigner then law was required to make it possible for him and his family to become Americans.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/01/10/citizenship-and-foreign-born-presidents/

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"So as can be seen, you concede that you do not know how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a 'natural born citizen.'"

So think how ignorant I would look were you to respond by citing the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defining the Article II term.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You also concede that there is no doubt that a child born in a country to parents who were its 'citizens' at the time of the child’s birth is not only a 'citizen' like them, but also a 'natural born citizen.'"

Your phrasing is not far off, but your history of messes with extraneous words and weirdly placed quote marks cautions me against straying into novel linguistics.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You also argue that both Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are 'natural born citizens.'"

There's more to it, but O.K.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I asked you to provide your evidence that there exists some other description of a 'natural born citizen' that allows Obama and Cruz to be 'natural born citizens' and you laugh at me, saying that I have the burden of proof to show that they are not."

Ah, no. I laughed at your hilarious suggestion that we obots have a burden of proof that we have not met. Of course I laugh. You guys are a national joke and President Obama is almost a year into his second term. Plus, Mr. Apuzzo, you sought a rulings on the merits, and in so doing made feather-light the bufden of showing your theory to be without merit.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I just showed you that there is only one description of a “natural born citizen” to which you concede, which description without any doubt neither Obama nor Cruz meet. So what else do you want me to prove?"

Have I been unclear? The more nonsense you prove to yourself the more fun I get to make of you. The ruling in the ballot challenge Purpura and Moran v. Obama, your own case, will describe for you how Obama qualifies as a natural-born citizen.

Carlyle said...

Prior to 2008, Obama was not an American Citizen at all, let alone a NBC. He got adopted by those Indians as a tricky way of getting naturalized, or at least bolstering a claim to be a citizen.

Hey! You got a better explanation for that bizarre event? Another one of those things where the MSM totally dropped the ball.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Publius, in 1811, living when the acts were passed by Congress, would know what Congress intended when it passed the naturalization acts of 1790, 1795, and 1802. In that connection, Publius tells us that where a child was born was not controlling when it came to U.S. citizenship."

No, Mr. Apuzzo, the author writing as "Publius" thinks that where a child is born determines what law applies. As you just quoted, "The law of Virginia, of 1792, does—for, 'all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,' is deemed a citizen."

At early naturalization acts said nothing either way about birthright citizenship of children born within the states. The Annals of the First Congress inform us that Congress saw the need to provide for children of American citizens born out of the United States (1121, 1125). There was no need to address the case of children born within the jurisdiction of the states.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I will take Publius’ and the James Madison’s Administration’s word in 1811 on what the acts meant rather than Unknown’s and the Obots’ today."

Your problem is that you do not have their support. You have your own fantasies based on demonstrable incompetence in this area. You also have the First Amendment right to keep proclaiming yourself correct but people expect more from an attorney.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"For more information on the James McClure case, see my brief filed in the Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama Ballot Challenge in the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania"

Yeah, how'd that go?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You pawn yourself off as someone who knows something about a “natural born citizen.” But in reality you have been and continue to be nothing more than either an Obot cheerleader or water carrier. Your claim to fame is pointing to (not even discussing) what some lower court judge (what you dress up to be “real world authorities”) did and that is it. If you were anything other than that, you would have known that the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania in the Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama ballot challenge never ruled on my “natural born citizen” argument contained in my brief. What it said was that it did not have jurisdiction to decide the matter in the first instance.

If you were anything other than that you would also provide us with real legal arguments rather than just you little cute commentary (what you perceive to be witty) on the state of the Obot twisted world.

Finally, if you were anything other than that you would have enough common sense not to believe that you won the “natural born citizen” debate after telling us that you do not know how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizen,” but regardless of how they might have defined one, “in our time” Obama and Cruz are “natural born citizens.”

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown wrote: "The Annals of the First Congress inform us that Congress saw the need to provide for children of American citizens born out of the United States."

I see you have not yet, and won't address what I wrote in my previous comment. You have no answer to it because your view regarding it is vaporous.
You need to pipe-down until you can and do respond to my argument about the purpose for addressing foreign-born American children in the N.A. 1790.
I won't hold my breath waiting.

He added: "There was no need to address the case of children born within the jurisdiction of the states."
While true, that statement misses the point, which is that Congress possessed no authority to address the case of natural born citizens since their national membership was before, beyond, beneath, and above the authority of Congress.
It's only authority was to make a uniform rule for the States to apply in their naturalization law and policy.
Naturalization only applies to foreigners, -not Americans, so the only legislative authority they possessed was in regard to the citizenship of those born without it and with no natural right to it.
Geographical coordinates do no supply one with an inherent unalienable right of membership in their parents national group. Only parentage is the source of that natural right, -not government permission.

and..."the author writing as "Publius" thinks that where a child is born determines what law applies."

If a law applies to one's citizenship then one is a legal citizen and not a natural citizen. No law applies to natural citizens and no legal citizen is eligible to be President because they were born of an alien father. It was for them that laws were written. That was the status quo of 1788 and far beyond.

But you will remain ignorant until you absorb the reality shared in my graphic illustrations, like my latest: http://h2ooflife.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/nbc-citizenship-color-66.jpg
Exposes the truth about the three competing theories of citizenship.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"A Monty Obot is an elitist Obot who thinks he or she is superior in intellect to Anti-Obots because of his or her knowledge of Monty Python episodes and their placing the Anti-Obots into the losing side of those episodes."

Announcer: Now all they have to do here to win the title is to shoot themselves. Simon has a shot. Bad luck, he misses. Nigel misses. Now there's Gervaise, and Gervaise has shot himself! Gervaise is Upperclass Twit of the Year! There's Nigel, he's shot Simon by mistake, Simon is back up and there's Nigel -- Nigel's shot himself! Nigel is third in this fine and most exciting Upperclass Twit of the Year Show I've ever seen!
--Monty Python's Flying Circus, 1970.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I guess we should also discount the Old Testament [...]"

God: It's like those miserable psalms. They're so depressing. Now knock it off.
--Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975)


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote::
[...] and the New Testament because it was originally written in Greek, and today in 2300 languages other than English."

Man in crowd: I think it was "Blessed are the cheese makers".
Woman: What's so special about the cheese makers?
Another man: Well, obviously it's not meant to be taken literally. It refers to any manufacturers of dairy products.
--Monty Python's Life of Brian (1979)


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Are you saying that the Framers would have allowed children born to British subjects (not U.S. citizens”) parents to be eligible for President in the future?. Also, explain [...]"

Vikings: Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam...
--MPFC (1975)


And now for something completely different: a *real* Monty Python Obot:

I'm pretty obsessionally interested in this election. I think it is so important that Barack Obama is elected because the world is treating America now a little bit like the village idiot of the international community.
[...]
When the Americans really put their foot in it was re-electing Bush. I mean the rest of the world was flabbergasted. And I think it can be almost fixed like that (finger snap) by electing Obama.
--John Marwood Cleese (2008)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KkMDKh3xUU

Unknown said...

I wrote:

Vikings: Spam spam spam spam spam spam spam spam...
--MPFC (1975)

Correction: 1970.

Unknown said...

a child of a alien was not even a citizen until child or alien father naturalised at the time of Framers and was never a natural born citizen, unless you are into the monty python (for lying snakes) obot theatre of the absurd.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"How can we tell that you have lost the "natural born citizen" debate?"

We can tell by who is entering as the U.S. Marine Band plays "Hail to the Chief".

Oops, sorry, rhetorical question.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Rather than being able to defend your position on the meaning of a "natural born citizen" and to base your opinion on relevant historical and legal evidence, you tell us that some lower court judges and some law professors have already decided the matter based on how a 'natural born citizen' is defined 'in our time.'"

Do you remember, when this blog was young, what a big deal you preported your litigation to be? Do you recall citing the book, /America's Constitution: A Biography/ by Yale Law Professor -- and at the time Harvard visiting Professor -- Akhil Reed Amar? Next, Esquire Apuzzo, remember the period when it was maniacally important to you that no court had reached what you call "the merits" of your arguments? Then, do you remember standing before the Appellate Division of the Superior Court of New Jersey and saying of your loss in the Administrative Court: "Right now we have a precedent saying that Mr. Obama is a natural-born citizen"?

You used to be all big into those authorities. But then you lost your case. You lost your appeal. You lost more cases, more appeals. You lost on standing and you lost on "the merits". On your home turf, where you make your living practicing law, courts where you chose to take your argument listened to you and found your argument to be without merit. That book about the Constitution that you cited as an authority to the federal court says that the Article II term "natural-born citizen" means citizen from birth (page 164).

Your problem with my citations is not based on principle. Most of them were your own. Your problem, Mr. Apuzzo, is that you are pitching such utter nonsense that you are refuted even by the authorities that you yourself chose.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

How can we really tell that you have lost the "natural born citizen" debate?

You get cornier by the minute (just like your peanut gallery over at the FogBrain) and you just keep recycling your "real world authorities" speech.

By the way, are you still trying to figure out a way how to get out of having been proven wrong by the plain language of the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855? I can imagine how saddened and frustrated you must feel at having such incontrovertible evidence demonstrate that the Anti-Obots have been right and the Obots and your handful of law professors and lower court judges have been wrong.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Are you forgetting the fact that the plain language of the 1790 Act shows that the First Congress (and President Washington) felt that they had the power to add to the class of natural born citizens (in exactly the same manner that England had added to the class of natural born subjects, I might add) and, as Unknown showed, the later acts were held to be functionally the same as the 1790 Act? (in other words, they all make children of citizens born overseas natural born although the later ones don't say that explicitly)

In what way have we possibly lost? Is President Obama still in office?

Yes.

Do the birthers have any prospects of a mechanism that might provide them with a glimmer of hope for removing President Obama from office over his eligibility?

No.


You can say "I win" all you want, but it isn't in any way distinguishable from a complete and utter failure to achieve your stated goals.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You pawn yourself off as someone who knows something about a 'natural born citizen.' But in reality you have been and continue to be nothing more than either an Obot cheerleader or water carrier."

The water has been carried. The cheers lead. It ain't over till it's over but it's over.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Your claim to fame is pointing to (not even discussing) what some lower court judge (what you dress up to be 'real world authorities') did and that is it."

If they're not real world authorities, why did you take your cases there? I did not choose them. You did. Mr. Apuzzo, you complain that I'm repetitions, but apparently you need even more reminding.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"If you were anything other than that, you would have known that the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania in the Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama ballot challenge never ruled on my 'natural born citizen' argument contained in my brief. What it said was that it did not have jurisdiction to decide the matter in the first instance."

First, losing attorneys' briefs are a poor source regardless of their excuse for losing.

Second, you made the same argument in your amicus brief to the United States Court of Appeals for the the Fourth Circuit in the Tisdale v. Obama appeal. You used that same quote of "Publius" from the Alexandria Herald.

The district court had dismissed Tisdale sua sponte for failure to state a claim on which relief can be granted, writing, "It is well settled that those born in the United States are considered natural born citizens." Tisdale v. Obama, No. 3:12-cv-00036-JAG (E.D. Va. Jan. 23, 2012). If the Circuit Court disagreed with District Court on that, it would be sufficient to overturn, as the Forth Circuit reviews dismissal for failure to state a claim de novo. Slade v. Hampton Roads Regional Jail, 407 F.3d 243, 248 (4th Cir. 2005).

The Circuit Court affirmed, writing, "We have reviewed the record and find no reversible error. Accordingly, we affirm for the reasons stated by the district court." There was no dissent. Tisdale v. Obama No. 12-1124 (4th Cir. Jun 5, 2012).

That's how your argument did on the merits, Esquire Apuzzo.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slartibartfast said...
"the First Congress (and President Washington) felt that they had the power to add to the class of natural born citizens"

That is ignorant idiocy. No Congress in U.S. history was more acutely aware of the constitutional prerogatives of Congress since many of those elected to it were founding fathers and co-framers of the Constitution. They DID NOT take any license with its limitations. They wrote a rule to make uniform the various State requirements for naturalizing foreign men and their dependents.

That was where the authority of Congress began and ended, and they knew that perfectly well and adhered to it.

Their inclusion of mention of American children born abroad had nothing whatsoever to do with naturalization and everything to do with correcting an omission in the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

That omission was a failure to protect a right of natural born Americans born beyond U.S. territorial jurisdiction.

What right? The right to serve in every capacity within the new government, including as chief executive, -just like their domestically-born brothers, and the sons of naturalized foreigners.

Both your ilk and Mario cling to the delusion that NBC is a "term of art" which you can define by any twisting of fact that suits you. But neither of you have any proof for your foundational premise that those three words are anything more than common words in ordinary usage.

But you'll remain ignorant and stupid by refusing to read anything that would reveal the truth to your mind's logic center.
i.e.;
CITIZENSHIP & FOREIGN-BORN PRESIDENTS
http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/01/10/citizenship-and-foreign-born-presidents/

AMERICAN FOREIGNERS & NATIVE-BORN ALIENS
http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/01/11/american-foreigners-native-born-aliens/

Don't read either of those if you don't want your twisted mind to have to do gymnastics in trying to evade the truth they reveal.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"How can we tell that you have lost the "natural born citizen" debate?"

We can tell by who is entering as the U.S. Marine Band plays "Hail to the Chief".
~~~
Are you stupid naturally or do you have to work at it?

The "debate" is not about what anyone thinks, including the judiciary. It is about what the actual truth is.

You don't give a damn about the truth. All you care about is victory for your treasonous decepticrat party and its unconstitutional champion.

Here's a thought...why not just shut the hell up aside from actually debating the real issues regarding citizenship facts. But then you lose on the facts so that's not such a great approach for you...

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"Are you forgetting the fact that the plain language of the 1790 Act shows that the First Congress (and President Washington) felt that they had the power to add to the class of natural born citizens (in exactly the same manner that England had added to the class of natural born subjects, I might add)"

Reply:
Are you forgetting the fact that the 1790 act was a NATURALIZATION act?

Are you forgetting the fact that a naturalized person is not a natural born citizen?

Are you aware or forgetting the fact that the English natural born subjects, born to those with "local ligeance" were actually naturalized?

(Calvin's case - "Calvin the Plaintiff naturalized by procreation and birth right..."

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=911&chapter=106337&layout=html&Itemid=27

Slartibartfast said...
"...and, as Unknown showed, the later acts were held to be functionally the same as the 1790 Act? (in other words, they all make children of citizens born overseas natural born although the later ones don't say that explicitly)"
-------------------------

A load of Crap!........ you are full of it.

They DO NOT "make children of citizens born overseas natural born although the later ones don't say that explicitly"

You are desperately making this idiotic stuff up ...... again.

Here, the 1790 act...
"the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens: Provided, that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States:"

The 1795 act...
"the children of citizens of the United States, born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons, whose fathers have never been resident of the United States:"

The act was changed, so that the children born abroad of US citizens were "citizens of the United States" and no longer "considered as natural born Citizens".

Ergo: a US "natural born Citizen" was more than a born citizen and could not be created by legislation.

The majority decision of the US Supreme Court in the Wong Kim Ark case, makes this very clear; with all the talk in the case, of "natural born" this and that, Wong was ruled to be a "citizen of the United States" according to the court's interpretation of the 14th Amendment, which, by the way, was seen by the SCOTUS MAJORITIES in BOTH the Minor court and the Wong court, to NOT SAY who shall be a "natural born Citizen".

It was only Wong's parents long time US residency and business contributions to the US which barely got Wong over the line.

Seeing as you like to refer to the English law, what about this....?

Lord Coke - Calvin's case...
"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

English law bites you on the arse.

Try again, traitor.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN, among others, quotes the 1795 NA but fails to notice something significantly different between it and the 1790 act. The 1795 act quoted begins mid-clause, preceded by the first and primary subject, i.e., children of naturalized foreign men. In essence it says:
"these children and those children are both citizens of the United States as opposed to being foreigners due to either a foreign father or foreign birth location."


The 1795 Act does no such thing. It mentions them both separately! It doesn't associate them nor their origins.

~Space aliens land on earth. They are being explained what dogs are as compared to cats. One person points to the one canine present and says: "that's a poodle and that over there is a cat."
A second person says: "-to be clear, that's a dog, and that is a cat."
Do the aliens "correctly" assume that the corrected version means that a poodle is not a poodle but is only a dog instead? Do they "wisely" assume that since what looks like a poodles is a dog it can't be a poodle since it is only a dog?

Please people, show your God-given intelligence and accept the obvious! A fourth grader can easily comprehend what is staring you in the face.

The sole purpose in addressing foreign-birthed Americans was the issue of the nature of their citizenship, not whether or not they had citizenship. That they were Americans was not contested. What needed to be made clear was what sort of Americans they would be; -the sort that is eligible to be President? Or something else?

The Act answered that question, with the intent of it remaining answered for all time, -but a future Congress was unaware of their motive and simplified it to what it seemed it should be. That's all. It's not complicated.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

except from: "Transcendent,Inviolable, A Prior Citizenship" @ obama--nation.com

The foundation of nations is the society upon which the nation is formed. Societies exist with or without the additional structure of government & written law which may be built upon them. Within that legal structure of Law & Government there is an allowance for people who are not natural members of the society but wish to join it and be accepted as members. They constitute less than 5% of most nations, -perhaps less than 1-2% with many nations.
They are a creation of the structure of law build upon the foundation of the society which constitutes the nation.
The society itself is not a part of that structure but pre-dates it, -existing as a primal entity just like the herds and flocks seen in the rest of nature.
Their membership in their group is primal also, transmitted, conveyed, inherited by birth, -by blood connection to parents who are members.
As such, their membership is an element of the fundamental structure of the society and not dependent on the legal structure of government which is built upon it.

That structure only deals with the membership of those who are outsiders, aliens, foreigners.

They become legal members. On the other hand, the native society itself is composed purely of natural members because their membership in the society is a natural thing.
In the legal structure (built atop the society of natural members) that membership is recognized as natural CITIZENSHIP.
It is natural national membership and nothing else.
It is not legal membership because the built-up legal structure does not support the foundation which it is built upon and which instead supports it.

Legal members are a creation of the legal structure. Natural members are a creation of the natural foundation. They do not required the acquiescence of the legal structure in order to be members of the society into which they were born as members, rather, the legal structure recognizes that the 97 +/- % of the nation’s members are the natural foundation on which it is built and its creator.
As such, they do not need the permission of their creation to be members of its foundational society nor the nation it has created.

Adrien Nash 2013

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"By the way, are you still trying to figure out a way how to get out of having been proven wrong by the plain language of the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855?"

No.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I can imagine how saddened and frustrated you must feel at having such incontrovertible evidence demonstrate that the Anti-Obots have been right and the Obots and your handful of law professors and lower court judges have been wrong."

You can imagine anything you want.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I see that you do not really have anything of any value to say so you just figured you would saying anything just to make it look like you are still in command. You are looking more and more like that black knight.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I see that you do not really have anything of any value to say so you just figured you would saying anything just to make it look like you are still in command."

The Commander in Chief is in command.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You are looking more and more like that black knight."

What are you going to do, bleed on me?

Carlyle said...

Once a topic has gone full circle a great number of times, nothing is left but name calling.

Can we declare a moratorium on old/repeated information.

Let's keep it fresh. Thank you so very much. Some of us are seriously worried and concerned. We depend on sites like this for up-to-date and topical information.

SIGH

MichaelN said...

Stranger said...
a.r.nash writes:
"MichaelN, among others, quotes the 1795 NA but fails to notice something significantly different between it and the 1790 act.
The 1795 act quoted begins mid-clause, preceded by the first and primary subject, i.e., children of naturalized foreign men.
In essence it says:
these children and those children are both citizens of the United States as opposed to being foreigners due to either a foreign father or foreign birth location.

The 1795 Act does no such thing. It mentions them both separately! It doesn't associate them nor their origins.
---------
Reply:
1790 act
" And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States.
And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens"

1795 act
"the children of persons duly naturalized, dwelling within the United States, and being under the age of twenty-one years, at the time of such naturalization, and the children of citizens of the United States, born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States"

BOTH the 1790 and 1795 acts, NATURALIZE BOTH the children of naturalized aliens AND children born abroad of US citizens.

That's what the acts were,i.e. legislative act to NATURALIZE people as opposed to those who did not need naturalization.

Now who do you suppose at the time had no need to be naturalized?

The only persons, at that time (1790-1795) who had no need to naturalize were those who had joined the revolution for independence AND those who were born in the US to non-naturalized parents.

The 1790 act was changed, because the Congress had no power to naturalize those who were already naturalized.

You have been shown that eligibility for POTUS was based on an imperative to eliminate as far as possible any foreign ties for those who could be eligible for the office of POTUS, i.e. only those with the highest possible allegiance to the US.

The USC Article II was not eligibility for citizenship, it was eligibility for one who had to be ALREADY a US citizen and one who was non-naturalized.

You have also been shown that place of birth was/is one of TWO essential elements when weighing allegiance.

Being born abroad to US citizens may well make one who might be called a "natural citizen", but it did not make one an Article II "natural born Citizen", because there was/is a higher allegiance required.

Born abroad to US citizens = born a natural citizen.

Born in US to non-citizens = originally, born an alien, then after Wong Kim Ark, born a native citizen.

Born in US to US citizens = both born a native and born a natural citizen, recognized as one with the highest possible allegiance.

The FACT remains, that the US Congress DOES NOT RECOGNIZE children born abroad to US citizens as "natural born Citizens" .......... period.

Furthermore the US Congress recognizes such people as born as "citizens of the United States", thus ineligible for the office of POTUS.

It makes no difference if you see it as unfair or inconsistent with your lovely theory of the law of nature, etc. it's simply just the way it was/is.

Learn to accept the truth of this matter.



Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

In other words, a statement made under a pseudonym which Mario attributes to James Madison because he (along with others) once used it years before is more authoritative than a statement made by... James Madison. I would very much like to see you try to make that argument in court---in fact, I would pay to see you or Mario given the chance to argue the merits of your theories before a valid court and against competent opposing counsel (preferably counsel racking up plenty of billable hours for the motion for sanctions).

You really don't seem to understand what's going on here---you've lost and some of us are still hanging around to laugh at you and because we are curious as to what drives a person to stray as far from the course of rationality as you have. We have nothing left to prove. President Obama won the election, was certified by Congress and sworn in as president. Twice. There is no chance that he will be impeached, let alone convicted or otherwise removed from office due to his eligibility. We win merely by preserving the status quo which you are powerless to effect in any way.

What would you expect to happen if, for instance, an honest member of Congress received on of the Cold Case Posse's "sheriff kits"? I would think that they would (if they were legitimately concerned about President Obama's eligibility) ask their own researchers to find out more. Which would result in them being given the two well-written reports on presidential eligibility by Jack Maskell. They would never even know about Mario's objections to these reports, but, even if they did, any mildly objective and rational reader can easily distinguish the quality of Mr. Maskell's work from Mario's specious objections.

Maybe someone would ask a current or former SCOTUS justice like Sandra Day O'Connor or Antonin Scalia.

Maybe someone would look at recent court cases that specifically addressed President Obama's eligibility like Ankeny.

Maybe someone would look at the holding of Wong Kim Ark, the relevant SCOTUS case on citizenship and consider the reasoning that led the justices to declare that the native-born child of an alien was "as much a citizen" as the class of citizens about which Minor had no doubts and "by operation of the same principle".

Maybe someone would see how the SCOTUS traced that reasoning back to Calvin's case and the principle of jus soli (the same principle which James Madison said prevailed in the United States).

Maybe someone would consider how Calvin's case says that the "legiance" of aliens sojourning in the country, even though it is "temporary and local", is strong enough to make their child natural born.

The court in Minor had doubts. The holding in Wong Kim Ark settled those doubts clearly and completely---at least until some dishonest people needed to make up a reason to unConstitutionally usurp the lawfully elected POTUS.

That's more than enough authority for any objective person to conclude that your theories are wrong (although any rational person can determine that just by looking at them), but there's one other gigantic problem with your theory: if this was all a mistake made by the Attorney General over a century ago (and reading the text of the holding makes it clear that the AG didn't misconstrue anything), then President Obama didn't do anything wrong as he would have every reason to think that he was eligible for the presidency due to his Hawai'ian birth. This pretty much destroys any claims of fraud or wrongdoing on the part of the president.

Slartibartfast said...

Carlyle,

Fresh? There hasn't been anything fresh here in ages (aside from the fresh manure of Mr. Nash, of course). You wont find any up-to-date topical information here---you'll just find Mario pimping the same tired, long-debunked nonsense he's been peddling for years, his lickspittle MichaelN chiming in with his "me too" and some cherry picked quotes from Calvin's Case (a particularly tired gambit), a few other sycophants (like yourself) who occasionally grovel at the altar of Mario, and Mr. Nash trashing Mario's arguments while spouting some of the most ridiculous nonsense that birtherstan has ever produced. There's no need to be worried---President Obama was born in Hawai'i and is a natural born citizen of the United States who was lawfully elected and assumed the presidency through the Constitutionally mandated process (twice) and will be leaving that office soon (in January of 2017). There is nothing you can do to change any of that, so why not give up your irrational hatred and do something productive, like trying to elect the candidate you want?

You all really should give up this unhealthy obsession for your own good. You don't have to like President Obama, but he's not ineligible, he's not a fraud, he's not a liberal (I wish he was), he's not a socialist, he's not a muslim, he's not a communist, he's not a fascist, and he's not the anti-christ or whatever other labels you care to use to try and make him seem different. The fact is that President Obama's story is far more of a quintessential American story than the pathetic tale that is your life. While your virulent hatred could have festered anywhere, President Obama's saga could only have happened in America.

John Wayne, when asked about the then newly-elected President Kennedy, replied, "I didn't vote for him, but he's my president and I hope he does a good job." That's the attitude of a real American, unlike the dishonesty and sedition that hateful birthers continue to spread.

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN said:

Lord Coke - Calvin's case...
"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

English law bites you on the arse.

Try again, traitor.


Actually, if you look at the highlighted part of your quote here, you'll see that it is saying that the children of enemy invaders are not born "under the ligeance of a subject". However, as you well know, it says elsewhere that the ligeance of an alien sojourning in the country, while temporary and local, is strong enough to produce a natural born subject. It's amazing that years later you're still flogging the same fallacious analysis of Calvin's case---endlessly repeating lies doesn't change the truth.

As for me being a traitor, as long as you (and the other birthers) judge people based solely on whether or not they agree with you, you are completely incapable of recognizing and correcting mistakes. One of the many reasons that any effort that you or the other birthers attempt is doomed to failure.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"How can we tell that you have lost the "natural born citizen" debate?"

Unknown said...

We can tell by who is entering as the U.S. Marine Band plays "Hail to the Chief".

~~~

a.r.nash writes:

Are you stupid naturally or do you have to work at it?

I've always believed that Mario was dishonest rather than stupid---he was smart enough to realize that he risked sanctions for any further birther actions. You, on the other hand, are clearly a natural born idiot---and that common phrase doesn't mean that your parents were idiots any more than the eponymous characters in the movie Natural Born Killers were the children of murderers. Once again we see that if we accept one of your assumptions (i.e. that the meaning of the term "natural born citizen" comes from the plain meaning of the words), we are inevitably led to the contradiction of your conclusion.

The "debate" is not about what anyone thinks, including the judiciary. It is about what the actual truth is.

Wrong again. While the actual truth is important, the findings of the judiciary are the law (happily, the judiciary has been making rulings based on the actual truth as regards eligibility). That's right, all of your "natural law" nonsense is irrelevant unless you can get a judge to issue a ruling saying otherwise. Good luck with that.

You don't give a damn about the truth.

I have far more respect for the truth than you do.

All you care about is victory for your treasonous decepticrat party and its unconstitutional champion.

Calling your opponents names is petty and juvenile. Also, if you have so much respect for the Constitution, why don't you accept the official acts of the State of Hawai'i like it says you should?

Here's a thought...why not just shut the hell up aside from actually debating the real issues regarding citizenship facts.

Because you (like all other birthers) are unwilling to engage in honest debate regarding the facts of citizenship.

But then you lose on the facts so that's not such a great approach for you...

Well, currently the facts as we see them have over 200 wins in court with no losses, so I'm thinking that our approach is working just fine. As opposed to the approach we see here where Mario declares that he has won, MichaelN tells him how great he was, you rip apart his arguments only to offer irrational drivel that wouldn't convince anyone with a modicum of critical thinking ability, which Mario then debunks and declares victory (repeat ad infinitum). How is that working out for you? How is it going to get President Obama frogmarched out of the Oval Office? Face it, the birther movement has failed in every way possible and is completely incapable of getting President Obama removed from office due to his eligibility.

MichaelN said...

MichaelN said:
Lord Coke - Calvin's case...
"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

English law bites you on the arse.

Try again, traitor.

Slartibartfast said...

"Actually, if you look at the highlighted part of your quote here, you'll see that it is saying that the children of enemy invaders are not born "under the ligeance of a subject". However, as you well know, it says elsewhere that the ligeance of an alien sojourning in the country, while temporary and local, is strong enough to produce a natural born subject. It's amazing that years later you're still flogging the same fallacious analysis of Calvin's case---endlessly repeating lies doesn't change the truth."

Reply:
Actually, garbage!

You really need to get your reasoning corrected.

It goes like this, the enemy invader is not such because he is not a subject, rather, he is not a subject BECAUSE he is an enemy invader; if he was not an enemy invader, then he would be a subject due by local ligeance.

The native-born child can be no subject, BECAUSE he " was not born under the ligeance of a subject".

If subject and citizen are analogous, (see majority opinion of the Wong Kim Ark case, where it was held that....

"The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law",

.....then for a person to be a NBC of the US, that person must be "born under the ligeance of a citizen".

Here is the holding of the English common law, per Lord Coke - Calvin's case which the Wong court observed and which resulted in Wong being held to be a "citizen of the United States" and NOT a NBC for good reason....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

Subject and citizen are "precisely analogous", so what is it about "not born under the ligeance of a subject/citizen" that you fail to acknowledge?

It is completely irrelevant as to WHY a person is not a subject/citizen, it is the FACT that they are not a subject/citizen which renders that person's native-born children not a subject/citizen.

Furthermore, the majority opinion in the Wong case cited favorably to the Minor court's majority opinion, that the US Constitution (which INCLUDED the 14th Amendment) does NOT SAY who shall be a NBC.

Ergo: the 14th Amendment says who shall be a born "citizen of the United States", but does NOT SAY who shall be a NBC.

Ergo: The majority opinion in the Wong case recognized two types of born US citizens.

You fail again, try again, traitor.

MichaelN said...

MichaelN said:
Lord Coke - Calvin's case...
"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

English law bites you on the arse.

Try again, traitor.

Slartibartfast said...

"Actually, if you look at the highlighted part of your quote here, you'll see that it is saying that the children of enemy invaders are not born "under the ligeance of a subject". However, as you well know, it says elsewhere that the ligeance of an alien sojourning in the country, while temporary and local, is strong enough to produce a natural born subject. It's amazing that years later you're still flogging the same fallacious analysis of Calvin's case---endlessly repeating lies doesn't change the truth."

Reply:
Actually, garbage!

You really need to get your reasoning corrected.

It goes like this, the enemy invader is not such because he is not a subject, rather, he is not a subject BECAUSE he is an enemy invader; if he was not an enemy invader, then he would be a subject due by local ligeance.

The native-born child can be no subject, BECAUSE he " was not born under the ligeance of a subject".

If subject and citizen are analogous, (see majority opinion of the Wong Kim Ark case, where it was held that....

"The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law",

.....then for a person to be a NBC of the US, that person must be "born under the ligeance of a citizen".

Here is the holding of the English common law, per Lord Coke - Calvin's case which the Wong court observed and which resulted in Wong being held to be a "citizen of the United States" and NOT a NBC for good reason....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

Subject and citizen are "precisely analogous", so what is it about "not born under the ligeance of a subject/citizen" that you fail to acknowledge?

It is completely irrelevant as to WHY a person is not a subject/citizen, it is the FACT that they are not a subject/citizen which renders that person's native-born children not a subject/citizen.

Furthermore, the majority opinion in the Wong case cited favorably to the Minor court's majority opinion, that the US Constitution (which INCLUDED the 14th Amendment) does NOT SAY who shall be a NBC.

Ergo: the 14th Amendment says who shall be a born "citizen of the United States", but does NOT SAY who shall be a NBC.

Ergo: The majority opinion in the Wong case recognized two types of born US citizens.

You fail again, try again, traitor.

Unknown said...

wka was ruled a citizen of the us, not a NBC. The 14th amendment says if born in US and subject to the jurisdiction thereof then one is a citizen of the US, not a natural born citizen. A citizen of the US has not been eligible since the time of adoption of US Constitution.

MichaelN said...

Says nothing here of these people being NBC, merely "citizens of the United States AT BIRTH"

Now if it was so common and settled law, blah, blah,blah, for such a long time that native-birth alone sufficed to make a US NBC then why do we have "citizens of the United States AT BIRTH?

"NA: ACT 301 - NATIONALS AND CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AT BIRTH

Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401] The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;

(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;

(d) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year prior to the birth of such person, and the other of whom is a national, but not a citizen of the United States;

(e) a person born in an outlying possession of the United States of parents one of whom is a citizen of the United States who has been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for a continuous period of one year at any time prior to the birth of such person;

(f) a person of unknown parentage found in the United States while under the age of five years, until shown, prior to his attaining the age of twenty-one years, not to have been born in the United States;

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years: Provided, That any periods of honorable service in the Armed Forces of the United States, or periods of employment with the United States Government or with an international organization as that term is defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act (59 Stat. 669; 22 U.S.C. 288) by such citizen parent, or any periods during which such citizen parent is physically present abroad as the dependent unmarried son or daughter and a member of the household of a person (A) honorably serving with the Armed Forces of the United States, or (B) employed by the United States Government or an international organization as defined in section 1 of the International Organizations Immunities Act, may be included in order to satisfy the physical-presence requirement of this paragraph. This proviso shall be applicable to persons born on or after December 24, 1952, to the same extent as if it had become effective in its present form on that date; and

(h) a person born before noon (Eastern Standard Time) May 24, 1934, outside the limits and jurisdiction of the United States of an alien father and a mother who is a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, had resided in the United States. 302 persons born in Puerto Rico on or after April 11, 1899"

MichaelN said...

Then we have this....

Why not call them natural born citizens, if it was always the case that native-birth alone sufficed to make a natural born citizen?????

Why call them "citizens of the United States at birth?????

INA: ACT 324 - FORMER CITIZENS OF UNITED STATES REGAINING UNITED STATES CITIZENSHIP

"(c) (1) A woman who was a citizen of the United States at birth and (A) who has or is believed to have lost her United States citizenship solely by reason of her marriage prior to September 22, 1922, to an alien, or by her marriage on or after such date to an alien ineligible to citizenship, (B) whose marriage to such alien shall have terminated subsequent to January 12, 1941, and (C) who has not acquired by an affirmative act other than by marriage any other nationality, shall, from and after taking th e oath of allegiance required by section 337 of this title, be a citizen of the United States and have the status of a citizen of the United States by birth, without filing an application for naturalization, and notwithstanding any of the other provisions of this title except the provisions of section 313 ......."

and this....

"(d) (1) A person who was a citizen of the United States at birth and lost such citizenship for failure to meet the physical presence retention requirements under section 301(b) (as in effect before October 10, 1978), shall, from and after taking the oath of allegiance required by section 337 be a citizen of the United States and have status of citizen of the United States by birth, without filing an application for naturalization, and notwithstanding any of the other provisions of this title except the provisions of section 313"

So there you go desperate lying traitors, you fail again....... better scurry off and have this scrubbed from the internet...... as you do when something shows how wrong you are.

Here's the original interpretation of the USCIS, per Leo Donofrio at http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/ which has been scrubbed from the USCIS web-site, since it was revealed some time back.

"Interpretation 324.2 Reacquisition of citizenship lost by marriage.”

Interpretation 324.2 (a)(3) provides:

“The repatriation provisions of these two most recent enactments also apply to a native- and natural-born citizen woman who expatriated herself by marriage to an alien…” )

Then, Interpretation 324.2(a)(7) provides:

“(7) Restoration of citizenship is prospective . Restoration to citizenship under any one of the three statutes is not regarded as having erased the period of alienage that immediately preceded it.

The words “shall be deemed to be a citizen of the United States to the same extent as though her marriage to said alien had taken place on or after September 22, 1922″, as they appeared in the 1936 and 1940 statutes, are prospective and restore the status of native-born or natural-born citizen (whichever existed prior to the loss) as of the date citizenship was reacquired.”

And again, Interpretation 324.2(b) provides:

“The effect of naturalization under the above statutes was not to erase the previous period of alienage, but to restore the person to the status if naturalized, native, or natural-born citizen, as determined by her status prior to loss.”


Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

I mistyped "the 1790 Act" as "the 1795 Act", -shocking! but unalterable once entered.
I'll repeat: The 1790 Act mentions them both separately! It doesn't associate them nor their origins.

It's a significant logic error to not recognize the context; "And the children of such person so naturalized,!!!

"Such persons" are foreigners. Only foreigners need to become Americans. When they do, their children become Americans through them via natural law, -codified in the Act.

American parents are not "such persons so naturalized", and thus they, and their children, need no naturalization. American children are citizens through their parents. If the father naturalized, so did his children. All children followed the status of the father. Read Vattel.

The 1790 Act does NOT include American children in the same sentence as children of naturalized foreigners. That was a mistake made later by the 1795 Congress, which combined them both in one statement as being citizens of the United States.

The intent of the 1790 Congress was solely to tell everyone (especially in government) that foreign-born American sons are eligible to serve as President just like their brothers. Otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned them at all.

All need to understand that the NAs did NOT naturalized any children. Their purpose was to state for the record what the citizenship automatically is of minor children of naturalized citizens. Only the father was naturalized into citizenship. The children then became what he was via the principle of Natural Law. Like father, like son.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote...
"That's what the acts were,i.e. legislative act to NATURALIZE people as opposed to those who did not need naturalization."

Your thinking needs a huge amount of reorganizing. Congress possessed NO AUTHORITY to naturalize anyone! It's authority began and ended with writing a uniform rule by which State officials would naturalize foreign men. Read it for God's sake.

Naturalization was by the authority of sovereign State magistrates and judges per State statutes that conformed with the national rule. Congress possessed no authority to naturalize nor to administer nor regulate State immigration. Both were State matters.

You need to seriously rethink the disrespect you are showing to the founding fathers and framers of the Constitution in thinking that they were dunces for writing something in the 1790 Act that never should have been written, was improper, and for which they had no authority.
The problem isn't what they did. The problem is that you are possessed of an incorrect doctrine which has warped your perspective so strongly that you can't even think straight anymore. They were not the ones suffering from an error in their thinking. That would be those who cling to what you cling to.

Answer me this; how is the allegiance "higher" in a son of Bin Laden born on U.S. soil, than that of a son of a President who was a son of a President but was born on the other side of the border in a Canadian hospital because it was closest?

Your entire "allegiance" thinking needs to be rethought. Birth location imparts nothing into one's psyche. That would be magic, not reality.

There is no difference between a natural citizen and one born as a natural citizen, i.e. a born natural citizen, or a natural born citizen. You are seeking an escape in words that mean the same thing. You should stop letting your pride get in the way of your thinking.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slartibartfast said..
"and reading the text of the holding [WKA] makes it clear that the AG didn't misconstrue anything),"
So...why do you lie with so little shame? Do you just make up what "the holding" means to suit your ideology? "the holding" states plain enough for any child to comprehend that it applied to a child of domiciled permanent resident immigrants.
Obumer's father did not fit any of those descriptions. He was a non-immigrant alien Domicile, in American and British law, is always a prerequisite to the grant of citizenship to native-born children of foreigners.
You know that for a fact and yet continue your lame attempts to sweep it under the rug since it totally invalidates the legitimacy of our non-citizen President.

If he was born in Vancouver as I've shown he must have been, or born in Hawaii, either way, he is not a citizen of the United States by American law. His presumed citizenship is via nothing other than a policy adopted by that duffus Attorney General in 1898 in flagrant disregard of the Supreme Court's holding regarding immigrants' children only.

"then President Obama didn't do anything wrong as he would have every reason to think that he was eligible for the presidency due to his Hawai'ian birth."

The first time he read the eligibility clause, he knew instantly; "hmmm, that doesn't include me, -I'm no natural born citizen. I'm an alien-born citizen at best."

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"Face it, the birther movement has failed."

Look at that hare run! That tortoise doesn't stand a chance. He might as well quit 'cause he's a slow loser. Run hare, run! You are my champion and I support you unconditionally, no matter what you do.

I wrote:
The "debate" is not about what anyone thinks, including the judiciary. It is about what the actual truth is."

Stupibartfast replied inanely:
"Wrong again. While the actual truth is important,.."

Dingbat, I didn't say that the truth was important. I said the DEBATE is about what the actual truth is.

"Mr. Nash trashing Mario's arguments while spouting some of the most ridiculous nonsense..."
"you are unwilling to engage in honest debate regarding the facts of citizenship."

"Unwilling"? When have you ever debated me regarding the facts of citizenship? By my recall, that would be never because you know you have no way to refute the facts I've presented, and so you haven't even tried.
Instead, what do you do? You refute those beliefs that I also refute. But you don't refute mine. I challenge you to refute this: by no law or amendment or court opinion is Obama a U.S. citizen. There is nothing in American law that provides citizenship to native-born children of foreign guests who are not subject to the political authority of the U.S. government, -who are not immigrants and are not subject to military service.

That is the fact that scares you and keeps you coming back, coming back, coming back to stamp out the final embers of the eligibility fire still smoldering. Yet nothing can give you the security you seek in the lies you hold dear.

MichaelN said...

Hey Kev, Unknown....

.....read this and tell me how all the of suspicions of Obama are merely unsupported hate-charges of disgruntled conspiracy-theorists.

"Doc Dump: Obama Family File Released; Skip-Tracer Releases
Database Pulls On Obama-Family Social Security Number(s)"

http://www.birtherreport.com/2013/04/skip-tracer-releases-obama-database-pulls.html

check this as well....

" Full Account: Rep. Steve King Says Obama's Kenyan
Aunt & Uncle Should Testify Before Judiciary Committee"

http://www.birtherreport.com/2014/01/full-exchange-rep-king-targets-obama.html

Kev, read my lips............. you have a liar and a fraud usurping the office of POTUS............. and he does not qualify as an Article II NBC neither, as has been shown to you.

Give it up Kev, you know he is a crook.

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

It's really too bad that Mario can't find a better lickspittle. Or that you haven't moved beyond the same cherry picked arguments that you used (and were roundly debunked) years ago.

Yes, when enemies come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, such a child is not born under the ligeance of a citizen, but it is well established that even the children of aliens in the country illegally ARE born under such ligeance. While many people don't think anchor babies should be citizens, only an idiot would argue that they are not natural born citizens, just like the children of citizens born under US jurisdiction and by operation of the same principle---the democratic principle of jus soli.

Go ahead and keep calling me names like traitor---it's just another sign that you are nothing but a whack job spouting nonsense.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote: "Here's the original interpretation of the USCIS, per Leo Donofrio at http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/ which has been scrubbed from the USCIS web-site, since it was revealed some time back."

I repeat, it was NOT "per Donofrio". He merely repeated what I "revealed" to him. Did you forgot me pointing that out to you already?
Also, it has NOT been scrubbed from the site, as I also shared. It has instead been hidden, -moved, but the new url can be found on my homepage because I managed to relocate it. Don't force me to have to repeat myself.

As for Calvin, both Unknown & MichaelN get it right and wrong. The monarchy imposed an interpretation that mere birth within his dominion, even to foreign visitors, was sufficient to make their native-born child his subject.
There's two things to consider: (1)the Crown bastardized the word "natural" by attaching it to such children, disregarding Natural Law by which attachment and belonging that is natural is only through one's parents, not soil. The government began calling alien-born subjects "natural born subjects" also, just like children of Englishmen, -even though there were not.
(2) Those born within the King's dominion were his subjects, but if they were only born within his domain but not his dominion, then they were aliens.
The royal dominion included the power and authority of the King. Children born of invaders were not within or under that power and authority and thus were not his subjects though born within his domain.
...coming soon..."NATURAL NATIONALITY; U.S. & BRITISH. ~a revealing expose.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"the status of a citizen of the United States by birth,"

What exactly does that mean? That question can't be answered because the statement contains an omission that results in an ambiguity.

Does it imply: "by birth in the United States"? or "by birth to American parents"?
What ambiguous statements mean is unknowable, otherwise they wouldn't be ambiguous.

Those who are born with "the status of a citizen of the United States by birth in the United States" are 14th Amendment constitutional citizens and are therefore ineligible to be President because their national membership is a gift of American law and not an inherited political nature via Natural Law.
Only those citizens who are citizens by Natural Law are eligible to serve as President of the American people and Commander in Chief of the American military.

MichaelN said...

What about this?

How come, if it has always been that native-born really means natural born, that the INA uses "native-born" to describe the native-born, shouldn't they be using "natural born" by now?

Tell me about it Kev.

"INA: ACT 349 - LOSS OF NATIONALITY BY NATIVE-BORN OR NATURALIZED CITIZEN"

http://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-10446.html#0-0-0-473

MichaelN said...

Stranger said....
"Only those citizens who are citizens by Natural Law are eligible to serve as President of the American people and Commander in Chief of the American military."

Reply:
They must also be born in US, as you have been repeatedly shown, i.e. that place of birth is an important measure of allegiance (that's why the 14th Amendment gives citizenship due to place of birth) to ensure the highest possible allegiance and least foreign ties.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said ....

"(1)the Crown bastardized the word "natural" by attaching it to such children, disregarding Natural Law by which attachment and belonging that is natural is only through one's parents, not soil. The government began calling alien-born subjects "natural born subjects" also, just like children of Englishmen, -even though there were not."

Reply:
According to Lord Coke per Calvin's case, The Law of Nature did not only pertain to man+woman+child and/or soil, it also had to do with the natural order of people in social community.

Here, this might help you understand....

"And Aristotle 1. Politicorum proveth, that to Command and to Obey is of Nature, and that Magistracy is of Nature: For whatsoever is necessary and profitable for the preservation of the society of man, is due by the Law of nature: But Magistracy and Government are necessary and profitable for the Preservation of the society of man; therefore Magistracy and Government are of Nature. And herewith accordeth Tully lib. 3. de legibus, Sineimperio nec domus ulla, nec civitas, nec gens, nec hominum universum genus stare, nec ipse denique mundus potest.125 This Law of Nature, which indeed is the eternal Law of the Creator, infused into the heart of the creature at the time of his creation, was two thousand years before any Laws written, and before any Judicial or Municipal Laws. And certain it is, That before Judicial or Municipal Laws were made, Kings did decide causes according to natural equity, and were not tied to any rule or formality of Law, but did dare jura"
http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=911&chapter=106337&layout=html&Itemid=27

MichaelN said...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

" "the status of a citizen of the United States by birth,"

What exactly does that mean? That question can't be answered because the statement contains an omission that results in an ambiguity.

Does it imply: "by birth in the United States"? or "by birth to American parents"?
What ambiguous statements mean is unknowable, otherwise they wouldn't be ambiguous."

Reply:
In the context of the USCIS.

It means what it says, i.e. all those who are citizens of the United States by birth, which INCLUDES those given that status due to being born in the US and those given that status due to being born to US citizen parents.

MichaelN said...

@Stranger

According to the Framers, the US Congress and the SCOTUS, place of birth is definitely a measure of allegiance, that's proven by the 14th Amendment, where place of birth in the US is the criteria for US citizenship along with being "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"MichaelN,

Yes, when enemies come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, such a child is not born under the ligeance of a citizen, but it is well established that even the children of aliens in the country illegally ARE born under such ligeance. While many people don't think anchor babies should be citizens, only an idiot would argue that they are not natural born citizens, just like the children of citizens born under US jurisdiction and by operation of the same principle---the democratic principle of jus soli."

Reply:

Geez Kev, get your act together, you start out speaking of English and morph it into US principles.

The enemies coming into the English realm are not subjects because they are enemy invaders, it's not the other way around, i.e. they are not enemy invaders because they are not subjects.

In England the child is no subject at all because he was "not born under the ligeance of a subject".

Furthermore Lord Coke specifically stated that native-birth DID NOT SUFFICE to make a natural born subject.

Here, again.....

"it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born....."

It is irrelevant as to why the parent is not a subject, it's the fact that the parent is not a subject.

It's not a "democratic principle" it is a common law principle, and it is merely to establish "citizen of the United States.
SCOTUS held in both Minor and Wong, that the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be NBC.

Wong only just scraped through as a "citizen of the United States" per the 14th Amendment (which the SCOTUS recognized did not say who shall be a NBC), due to Wong's parents long-time domicile and business contribution to the US.

This was clear in the Wong court's opinion.

Since the WKA court's opinion, the principle has been watered-down and mis-applied by those who were/are ignorant and/or deliberate in doing so.

It's all about the ligeance of the parents.

Kev, if the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be NBC, it says who shall be US citizens at birth, but who are NOT NBC.

Try again, traitor.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Kevin wrote: "but it is well established that even the children of aliens in the country illegally ARE born under such ligeance."

Please define "ligeance". And define "well established". Be warned, whatever nonsense you come up with will be clearly and plainly exposed.

Does it include the authority to draft those who are not subject to the full duties of citizenship? Are they required by law to register with Selective Service at 18 yoa? Or are they invisible to the Federal government?

How can invisible people be considered to be natural citizens of any nation other than their parents' nation?

It's guessimated that of the 4 million babies born every year in America, a tenth are born to illegal immigrants. Their children grow up as Americans but are in fact Mexicans by birth via Natural Law & Mexican law.

They are NOT Americans by American law since they are not born subject to U.S. jurisdiction. Unlike the 14th Amendment, Mexican law follows pure jus soli for children of foreigners, -NOT requiring subjection to federal jurisdiction, but then they are not citizens, but are instead only "nationals" until the age of 18.

MichaelN said...

Denial is all the Obama supporters have.

Basically they expect people to believe that being born in the US to US citizen parents, has zero weight and is no measure of allegiance to the US.

Now why would the parents' status as US citizens have weight, and be the only measure of allegiance for children born abroad to US citizen parents, but have no weight at all for children born in US to US citizen parents?

Especially in light of the Framers' serious (almost to the extent of paranoid) concerns of foreign infiltration into the new republican executive and judiciary, etc.

The whole reason for the descriptive term "natural born Citizen" only to be eligible for the office of POTUS, was/is that it's meant to be descriptive of one with highest possible allegiance was the only acceptable standard.

Now that we have established that BOTH place and parents' status carry weight and are both measures of allegiance.

Let's take a look.

Allegiance Gauge
(on a scale of 1-2):

Born native to the place = 1

Born to citizen parents = 1

Born both native to place of citizen parents = 2

Highest Allegiance = 2

So the highest allegiance belongs to one who is born in US to US citizen parents, hence the Framers' use of the term "natural born Citizen", a unique term with no precedent, created by the Framer's to describe highest allegiance.

Given that the Founder and Framers were hungry for any good ideas and guidance for nation shaping and building that was out there at the time, the Framers would have been aware of these snippets from English law which specifically addressed allegiance....

" Ligeance is a true and faithful obedience of the subject due to his Sovereign.

This ligeance and obedience is an incident inseparable to every subject; for as soon as he is born he oweth by birth right ligeance and obedience to his Sovereign."

"There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances:

the first is, ligeantia naturalis, absoluta, pura, et indefinita,42 and this originally is due by nature and birthright, and is called alta ligeantia42a and he that oweth this is called subditus natus.43"

[42. ][Ed.: natural, absolute, pure and unlimited allegiance.]

[42a. ][Ed.: high allegiance.]

[43. ][Ed.: subject born.]

Natural, absolute, pure, unlimited and high allegiance was not a new criteria to either the English and the Framers.

It was all just normal stuff in those days.

Obama has demonstrated his true nature, he is of LOW allegiance (possibly lowest allegiance) to the US constitutional republic.

Obama is (by his own admission)NOT eligible for the office of POTUS, due to his father not being a US citizen.



Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Your reliance upon Calvin’s Case (1608), the colonial English common law, and the Fourteenth Amendment (1868), to define an Article II “natural born citizen” and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark to define a “natural born citizen” any differently than how Minor defined one is misplaced, as are all of your “natural born citizen” arguments. None of those sources define an Article II “natural born citizen” and Wong Kim Ark did not define a “natural born citizen” differently than did Minor.

As is confirmed by both Minor and Wong Kim Ark, what defines a “natural born citizen” is constitutional American national common law which provides that a “natural born citizen” is a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. See, among other authorities, Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 211-217 (1758) (1797); Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898).

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
Your reliance upon Calvin’s Case (1608), the colonial English common law, and the Fourteenth Amendment (1868), to define an Article II 'natural born citizen' and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark to define a 'natural born citizen' any differently than how Minor defined one is misplaced, as are all of your 'natural born citizen' arguments."

"Misplaced"? If you mean misplaced in trying to convince you, MichaelN and Stranger, well, yeah, but I'm not convinced that's actually Slartibartfast's goal. If the place at issue is connected to the real world, well, here in reality people told you, Mr. Apuzzo, that U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark was the case that refuted your theory. You didn't believe it. You took it court.

Your lost every time, at every level. When the courts reached what you call the "merits" of your NBC theory, they relied on Wong to reject it. Your own experience in the real world shows Slarty's reliance on Wong to be well-placed, if that's the place we're talking about.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"See, among other authorities, Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 211-217 (1758) (1797); Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)."

I think, for the most part, the courts declined your invitation to see Vattel; some had a look at Minor and were unimpressed; and all of those that reached the merits found that U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark disposes of your theory.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda

Do you really think that you can gain any points by simply recycling your same statements about how some lower courts prove that you are correct without providing any meaningful analysis from those courts that supports either what those courts concluded or your position? If you must simply rely on court conclusions without providing the reasoning that supports those conclusions, I repeat, you lose by default.

Unknown said...

wong kim ark had nothing to do with a natural born citizen, only a citizen of the US and going by the wording of the 14th he probably was not even a citizen. Anybody can read the Georgia and NJ ballot challenges and see the judges were a farce. Has any case ever reached the SC questioning the citizenship of a child born in US to american citizens?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Do you really think that you can gain any points by simply recycling your same statements about how some lower courts prove that you are correct without providing any meaningful analysis from those courts that supports either what those courts concluded or your position?"

If I cannot score points with them, why do you have to lie about what my lines are? "Some lower courts" is *your* line, that *you* keep recycling.

Obots gave you the analysis years ago, Mr. Apuzzo. In your first article in the archives of this blog you wrote:

"Some argue that the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898) is the final word on 'natural born Citizen' and that under that decision, as long as Obama was born on U.S. soil, he is a 'natural born Citizen.'" -- Mario Apuzzo, Esq. 20 Dec 2008.

Turns out that those "some" were correct to so argue, at least on the eligibility of the native-born such as Obama. Had you listened you could have avoided heaping failure and defeat upon yourself and upon those who accepted your advice.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"If you must simply rely on court conclusions without providing the reasoning that supports those conclusions, I repeat, you lose by default."

I and other have provided it over and over. We cannot get it through your walls of invincible ignorance, but that's not the same thing.

On 10 April 2012, the Office of Administrative Law of the great state of New Jersey heard the Purpura and Moran v. Obama ballot challenge. ALJ Jeff S. Masin read aloud from U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark and asked you, Mr. Apuzzo a pointed question about its use of common law to define "natural born citizen".

You had had years to prepare for this moment. You had practiced on blogs arguing the very point. You seemed ready for it. Standing before the ALJ you responded:

“With all due respect to the United States Supreme Court, and to Justice Grey, there’s no support for what he says.” -- Mario Apuzzo, Esq., 10 April 2012

You can find the Administrative Court's reasoning in ALJ Masin's opinion, which the Superior Court of New Jersey Appellate Division later called "thorough and thoughtful". Masin did not make up that quote from U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark that includes, "all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens."

Why did Wong prove to be "the final word on 'natural born Citizen'" just as some had told you back in 2008? One reason, Mr. Apuzzo, is that the New Jersey Office of Administrative Law does not review whether decisions of the United States Supreme Court include sufficient support.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

There are two issues. The obamunists only want to focus on one and that is what fallible men in black robes think, -men with erroneous consensus viewpoints who do not understand the citizenship issue when it comes before them. They do not have a single original thought on the subject and therefore can only parrot what some pseudo-expert said in the past.

That is the result of there being no knowledge or education of the subject and its history and nature.

So if some judge in the past got it wrong, his error was carried forward to subsequent generations because no one in them could possibly know that what he thought was in error. Thus error becomes institutionalized.

The other perspective is not about what judges think but about what the truth actually is, for good or for bad, for orthodoxy or for heresy, is support of or in denial of one's embraced beliefs.

Since few people put the truth ahead of their own motives, few will ever find it because it does not belong to any side. It just is what it is.
Each side thinks that it is the one with the clear and correct understand of the Wong opinion, when in fact it begins and ends with the final holding and nothing else is anything but dicta, -and entirely subject to multiple errors of thinking, reason, facts, and interpretation. Or deliberate lies.

If you are really hungry for the truth about the 14th Amendment you will have to read what I've published today at obama--nation.com

If you think you understand Wong and NBC, you will discover that you do not because you do not know enough to be able to comprehend what is involved in it and the 14th Amendment. When the eyes of your mind have been opened, you will witness you previous concepts crumble into dust.

Our Asinine U.S. Citizenship Perversion

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/01/17/our-asinine-u-s-citizenship-perversion/

MichaelN said...

@ Unknown.

After all the hoo har in the Wong court about English "natural born subject" and US "natural born citizen", the majority opinion of the court was this.

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (No. 18)

Argued: March 5, 8, 1897

Decided: March 28, 1898

"The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination the single question stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parent of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States. For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.

Order affirmed."


http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649#writing-USSC_CR_0169_0649_ZO

Anyone in lower courts who says the opinion of the Wong court was that Wong was a US NBC is WRONG, and if they were/are recognized as a legal authority, then such recognition is misplaced.

MichaelN said...

@ Unknown.

After all the hoo har in the Wong court about English "natural born subject" and US "natural born citizen", the majority opinion of the court was this.

United States v. Wong Kim Ark (No. 18)

Argued: March 5, 8, 1897

Decided: March 28, 1898

"The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination the single question stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parent of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States. For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.

Order affirmed."


http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649#writing-USSC_CR_0169_0649_ZO

Anyone in lower courts who says the opinion of the Wong court was that Wong was a US NBC is WRONG, and if they were/are recognized as a legal authority, then such recognition is misplaced.

MichaelN said...

@ Unknown, who said ...
"You can find the Administrative Court's reasoning in ALJ Masin's opinion, which the Superior Court of New Jersey Appellate Division later called "thorough and thoughtful". Masin did not make up that quote from U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark that includes, "all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens." "

Reply:

"Born in the allegiance" is not a reference solely to native birth.

Here this quote is also not made up, and it too is from the Wong Kim Ark opinion....

"To create allegiance by birth, the party must be born not only within the territory, but within the ligeance of the government."

Then we have what the WKA court relied on as a measure of "common law", i.e. Calvin's case, where not only was native-birth alone REJECTED as sufficient to make a natural born subject, but a native-born had to be born under the ligeance of a subject, to be a natural born subject.

Which proves that the reference to the "common law" principle which you quoted from the WKA court, i.e. "all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens",
actually is a reference to the subject/citizen status of the parents, under whose allegiance the native-born child is born.

Ergo: "born in the allegiance" in the context of the quote from WKA actually means native-born AND born under the allegiance of a US citizen.

Here's the part from Calvin's case that the Wong Court got it from....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:"

" that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject"

Seems like your New Jersey Admin Law people have a lot to learn, but that's a problem these days, people in jobs which they aren't qualified or competent to hold.

Then of course we have this quote from the WKA court where it was observed that....

"The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law,"

No wonder WKA was only ruled a "citizen of the United States", Wong was "not born under the ligeance of a subject"/citizen.

You lose again traitor, try again.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

There are a slew of reasons which overwhelmingly demonstrate that Wong Kim Ark is a case about determining what is a "citizen of the United States" "at" birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment and not a case about determining what is an Article II "natural born citizen" “by” birth by virtue of American constitutional national common law, and in answering that former question, that the Court did not alter Minor's common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” but rather only expanded the class of persons who are also included as “citizens of the United States” “at” birth under the Fourteenth Amendment.

Let me know if you are interested in me providing you with those reasons.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN's quote of the actual opinion of the court it the most vital approach to dismissing its significance because its literal words destroy the false interpretation attached to it by the obamunists who declare that it makes all alien-born Americans-by-law into constitutionally eligible nature born citizens.

I'll give a million dollars to the obamunist that can point out the words in the opinion, -the holding, the decision of the court which do that.
I'm inclined to exclaim "Wow" when reading: "for determination the single question "whether a child born in the United States, of parents of Chinese descent....!!
One cannot exaggerate the insignificance of the Wong opinion when you take those words into account. They mean that it only applies to the question of the nationality of native-born children of Chinese immigrants.
What percent of annual births did they constitute, less than 1%? If 96% of births were to Americans,...

No other immigrant children are covered by it. No natural citizens are covered by it. No slave children were covered by it. No Native Americans were covered by it. Only a sliver of a sliver were covered.
That's laughable, and of course it's compounded by the requisite characterization of their majority view as being merely an opinion, "this court is of opinion that..."

Their opinion is nothing more than an a bias in favor of citizenship for immigrant children regardless of the constitutional authority of the Congress to determine who they considered to be "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" as a legislative issue, and not a constitutional issue.
The court bastardized their proper role and place and usurped authority that was not given to it. It was not an issue between the States nor over a constitutional issue. It was a policy issue and the court has no authority to make policy. That belongs to the Congress and the executive branch.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote: "No wonder WKA was only ruled a "citizen of the United States", Wong was "not born under the ligeance of a subject"/citizen."

He was ruled to be a citizen based on ignorance, indifference, or deceit on the part of the majority which attached an inaccurate and false meaning to what jurisdiction entails.

They excluded from it the absolute right of governments to require the nation's male members to fulfill their most fundamental duty of citizenship and serve in the military to defend the nation.

By declaring Wong a citizen, they were declaring that he was subject...to something, -to some jurisdiction, but that jurisdiction was totally nondescript and undefined.
As I state in my next exposition, that was decided by the government a generation later during World War I. "Section 5: That all male persons between the ages of 21 and 30, both inclusive, shall be subject to registration in accordance with regulations to be prescribed by the President:"...And any person who shall wilfully fail or refuse to present himself for registration...shall be guilty of a misdemeanour and shall, upon conviction...be punished by imprisonment..."

Unlike the Civil War conscription which excluded foreigners and their adult sons, the Wong opinion was taken to mean that the foreign fathers of native-born citizenized children were subject also, -just like their children.
Not all men who are subject to US jurisdiction are imbued with the privileges and rights of citizens. They are, in effect, subjects or nationals by federal policy, but not citizens unless born on US soil.

Natural citizenship was not an issue in the Wong case and was not addressed.
It is only an issue in presidential eligibility. Nothing else.
In all other regards, all citizens are equal by the American doctrine of citizenship equality (which other nations lack).

MichaelN said...

USC Article II "natural born Citizen" was/is the Framers' description of a "citizen of the United States" with a higher allegiance than the rest of the US citizens.

Given that all those who are native-born in US are "citizens of the United States", there can only be one other quality which can result in a higher allegiance, i.e. born to US citizen parents.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"There are a slew of reasons which overwhelmingly demonstrate that Wong Kim Ark is a case about determining what is a 'citizen of the United States' 'at' birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment and not a case about determining what is an Article II 'natural born citizen'[...]".

First, repeating your losing arguments in no way justifies your false claims that courts and obots did not present the reasoning that defeats you.

Second, Minor v. Happersett is a case about whether women had have a constitutional claim to equal suffrage as of the Fourteenth Amendment. Minor was not about determining what is an Article II natural-born citizen; Wong was not about an Article II natural-born citizen; Lynch v. Clarke was not about an Article II natural-born citizen.

Purpura and Moran v. Obama -- now that was about an Article II natural-born citizen. You wanted a ruling on that. Be careful for what you wish.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Let me know if you are interested in me providing you with those reasons."

No, but should I meet people who want to lose all their cases I will refer them.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

President Woodrow Wilson's Proclamation Establishing Conscription
"Section 5: That all male persons between the ages of 21 and 30, both inclusive, shall be subject to registration in accordance with regulations to be prescribed by the President:" "...And any person who shall wilfully fail or refuse to present himself for registration..."

Ladies & Gentlemen...Witness the wisdom and competence of our Government at work. It unmistakeably ordered ALL PERSONS (between 20 & 31) to register for the draft (Selective Service). Did it say what it meant and mean what it said? Hardly.

No one in government was competent enough to grasp what its thoughtless wording meant. It required that all crippled, all blind, all insane and all incarcerated men within a ten year range were to register on registration day.

That also included all foreign representatives and military personnel, all foreign guests and tourists, as well as all Native Americans who also were not citizens.

Yes sir-ee. Government never displays any incompetence in its written mandates, in its executive policies and judicial opinions. It is populated by infallible angels.

What I've been pointing out for a few years now is the situation of a consensus status quo that is based on errors of the past that were never challenged nor corrected.

To correct them would required first admitting the incompetence or misfeasance of their prior elite members who were guilty of what requires an apology. It took a century for a proud Congress to finally apologize to all Native Hawaiians for the American part in the over-throw of their sovereign independent republic.
Entrenched institutionalized stupidity can't be corrected except by very brave and intelligent souls, and we don't have any of them in control of any of the branches of our government.

Unknown said...

how can you be born in the allegiance of the US if your father is a alien? New citizens of the US all renounce any allegiances to foreign countrys at naturalisation ceremonys. If one of your parents is a alien then you are a dual citizen at best and not eligible.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Leo Derosia,

I of II

Unknown, a/k/a NotLinda, just likes to repeat things. Like a parrot, she has no understanding of the things she parrots. Providing no reason or understanding to support her positions, she is a mere flatterer of authority and those in power who serve her self-interest.

She ascribes to New Jersey ALJ Masin dispositive powers when he quoted U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) quoting United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir. Ct. Ky 1866) (Justice Noah H. Swayne). She repeats Justice Swayne’s quote: “all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens." But like I have several times told her in the past, neither Justice Swayne, nor Justice Gray, nor ALJ Masin defined what “born in the allegiance of the United States” means within the context of defining a “natural born citizen.” Actually, the historical and legal record demonstrates and Justice Swayne himself later confirmed what it means. It means being born not subject to any foreign power under natural law and the law of nations. That describes a “natural born citizen.” America adopted this rule of natural law and of the law of nations as part of its national common law (not to be conflated and confounded with the colonial English common law that after the Revolution was selectively adopted in the states and which may have been used to determine state citizenship and which per Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark served as an aid for interpreting the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction” and ultimately a “citizen of the United States” “at” birth under the Fourteenth Amendment). The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, did not rely upon any English common law rule, but rather the law of nations/American national common law rule to define an Article II “natural born citizen.”

John Jay recommended the “natural born citizen” clause to then-General George Washington in his 1787 letter to him. He thereby suggested to him that no person born subject to any foreign power be Commander of the military. Given the nation’s national security and safety needs and the highly sensitive singular and all-powerful civil and military offices held by the President and Commander in Chief, the Founders and Framers agreed with Jay and demanded, they themselves not being “natural born citizens,” that all future Presidents and Commanders be born a “natural born citizen” as defined under American national common law, i.e., not born subject to any foreign power. The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers also accepted that under natural law and the law of nations, hence under this common law rule, the only way for a person to be born not subject to any foreign power was to be born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. And this was in the minds of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers the definition of a “natural born citizen.”

Hence, upon the adoption and ratification of the Constitution, this law of nations rule became constitutional national common law and part of the supreme law of the land which subsequently could be changed only by constitutional amendment.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

By being born in the United States, no foreign country could claim the allegiance and citizenship of such a child through jus soli. By being born to U.S. “citizen” parents, no foreign country could claim the allegiance and citizenship of such a child through jus sanguinis. By satisfying this common law rule, one was born both in the allegiance of (politically and militarily tied to) and with obedience to (obligated to obey the laws of) the United States. See the Civil Rights Act of 1866 (by requiring that a person born in the United States to be a “citizen of the United States” “at” birth be born “not subject to any foreign power” and thus equated such a statutory “at birth “citizen” to a “natural born citizen” under national constitutional common law). This common law rule was also confirmed in Minor v. Happersett (1875), a decision joined by the very Justice Swayne, who had also not objected to this rule in his dissent (for other reasons) in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873).

The only way or means by which (the mechanism) a would-be president could satisfy this rule was to be born in the United States to parents who were U.S. “citizens” at the time of his or her birth. No positive or municipal law, whether foreign or domestic, could defeat this rule, for positive or municipal law neither makes nor destroys a “natural born citizen.” Hence, neither our U.S. Congress, through any of its naturalization acts, nor any foreign nation through any of its municipal laws, can created or defeat a “natural born citizen” under American national constitutional common law.

So, Unknown/NotLinda really does not know much about what a “natural born citizen” is. She just keeps repeating her inane comments and quotes and relying on her “real world authorities,” who I have long ago demonstrated do not address let alone refute anything that I have maintained about what a “natural born citizen” is and do not change the reality that even if de facto President Barack Obama was born in the United States (a fact that he has not yet conclusively proven), being born to a British father and a U.S. “citizen” mother, he was still born under American law and the British Nationality Act of 1948 also subject to the power of Great Britain and therefore subject to the laws of the United States (in obedience) but not within its sole and absolute allegiance (in allegiance), and that given that Senator Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a Cuban father and U.S. “citizen” mother, he was still born under American law and Canadian and Cuban law also subject to the power of both Canada and Cuba and therefore not even born in obedience to the laws of the United States let alone within its sole and absolute allegiance. With Obama needing the Fourteenth Amendment (which does not like the Civil Rights Act of 1866 equate its “citizen of the United States” “at” birth with an American national constitutional common law “natural born citizen”) and Cruz needing a naturalization Act of Congress (which can never constitutionally make a “natural born citizen”) to make them both a “citizen of the United States” “at” birth, and not meeting the stringent requirements of the American national constitutional common law rule as to who is a “natural born citizen,” neither Obama nor Cruz are “natural born citizens,” which makes them both not eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"She ascribes to New Jersey ALJ Masin dispositive powers when he quoted U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) quoting United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir. Ct. Ky 1866) (Justice Noah H. Swayne)."

I don't know where you got that idea. The dispositive ruling on your case was the NJ Secretary of State accepting Masin's initial decision. If you mean dispositive of the general issue of the eligibility of the native-born, that was clear and settled long before your cases.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"But like I have several times told her in the past, neither Justice Swayne, nor Justice Gray, nor ALJ Masin defined what 'born in the allegiance of the United States' means within the context of defining a 'natural born citizen.'"

The context of Wong did not require a definition of natural-born citizen, but the Wong court clearly did mean that Wong was "born in the allegiance of the United States" and did say that such persons are "natural-born citizens".

And when you write things such as, "like I have several times told her in the past..." do you forget that I am familiar with your record? I'm glad I knew better than to believe you.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"John Jay recommended the 'natural born citizen' clause to then-General George Washington in his 1787 letter to him. He thereby suggested to him that no person born subject to any foreign power be Commander of the military."

Mr. Apuzzo, you put John Jay on a position he did not take. You claim that "natural-born citizen" is a term of art, a unit that in court papers you called a "word" in the singular. Were that correct it would make no sense for Jay to emphasize the one word "born". On the other hand, once we understand that there are just two classes of citizens, natural-born citizens and naturalized citizens, it makes perfect sense to underline the word that distinguishes them.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"So, Unknown/NotLinda really does not know much about what a 'natural born citizen' is.

I know what a crank theory is.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"She just keeps repeating her inane comments and quotes and relying on her 'real world authorities,' who I have long ago demonstrated do not address let alone refute anything that I have maintained about what a 'natural born citizen' is and do not change the reality [...]"

The net is full of cranks demonstrating their own theories to their own satisfaction, utterly immune to refutation. That's not the standard for an attorney. You chose to take your case to those real world authorities and you objectively failed to demonstrate the merits of your theory when it was literally your job to do so.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You and your Foggy pals really have a silly story in your definition of a “natural born citizen.” You want us to believe that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, when they wrote and accepted “natural born citizen,” really meant to write and accept “born citizen.” That is as stupid as trying to convince us that when Santa Claus asked for a "red-nosed reindeer" to lead his sleigh that special night, he really meant to ask for just a “nosed reindeer.” Santa surely would not have pick Rudolph to lead his sleigh that night if he did not have that bright red nose to lead the way.

So, Unknown or NotLinda, whatever name you need to go by, maybe you can get into your Obot time machine and go back into the past and rewrite the Rudolph story so that Santa has his sleigh led by a “nosed reindeer.” And while you are in your Obot time traveler, you might as well get your dime’s worth and go back ever further into the past and convince John Jay that instead of just underlining “born,” he should also leave out “natural.”

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"neither Justice Swayne, nor...defined the meaning of “(all persons) born in the allegiance of the United States (are natural-born citizens)."

Mario wrote:
"It means being born not subject to any foreign power under natural law and the law of nations."

No, you do not define something with a negative, -by saying what it is not. You must define it positively. How? It means you were the issue of a father who was shouldering an innate natural responsibility to defend his nation.

That responsibility is inescapable and every male citizen shoulders his share. Every son born to him grows up with that latent duty awaiting him as his inherited responsibility to his society, country, and nation.
"Born in the allegiance" is an inappropriate reference to a monarchical system in which one supposedly "owes" the sovereign loyalty and obedience.
Understand this; Americans do NOT owe anyone loyalty, and obedience is first and foremost to the U.S. Constitution, and then to the government that operates under its authority.
American sons are born under the duty (not allegiance) of citizens (not subjects); -the duty to defend, to bear arms, to bear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution.

Foreigners' native-born sons were NOT born under that duty until the Wong court's ruling dictated that they were, -thereby usurping the role of Congress to decide such a matter. That meant that their fathers were also subject and could be drafted into the military just like citizens.

That made them the equivalent of American subjects, and made their son's therefore naturalized citizens at birth. Not by nature but by law.

In Mexico, no immigrant nor naturalized citizen can serve in the military, as a policeman, legislator or judge.

That is because they have two classes of citizens; natural and naturalized.

Unknown wrote: "On the other hand, once we understand that there are just two classes of citizens, natural-born citizens and naturalized citizens,.."

There is no such class as "natural-born" in America. The hyphen reveals that you know nothing about natural citizenship.
Even worse, there is no such class as naturalized citizens in America. There is only ONE class, and it is the natural class. One becomes a natural citizen either by birth or by natural-ization.

By both means, one becomes a natural citizen. ONE CITIZENSHIP, ONE PEOPLE, ONE CLASS, ONE EQUALITY, ONE NATIONAL FAMILY, NO ADOPTEES.

It took the SCOTUS a century almost to finally acknowledge a fundamental American principle of equality and end all discrimination against the rights of natural-ized citizens who are now protected by the DOCTRINE OF CITIZENSHIP EQUALITY.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown wrote: "the general issue of the eligibility of the native-born, that was clear and settled long before your cases."

Either you are lying, stupid, or ignorant of the meaning of the word "settled". This entire debate is because it is decidedly NOT settled.
And why do you disingenuously prevaricate that any court other than the supreme court can "settle" the issue of who is not eligible to be President.

Please educate me as to when exactly they issued a holding, a ruling, an opinion of the court that stated in writing that ALL native-born citizens are eligible?

I've got a million dollars laying around somewhere to give you as soon as you can show me the case in which they did just that.
If you can't, that makes you a lying liar.

and "the Wong court clearly did mean that Wong was "born in the allegiance of the United States" and did say that such persons are "natural-born citizens"."

First, that is a lie since the court never said any such thing, and
Second, even if they had, it still would have been a falsehood, and
Third, even if they had "said" such a thing, that means nothing if it is not included in the actual holding in the case.
In the Wong case, the holding is crystal clear, -though you are determined to bury its very plain and unambiguous wording, that the question before the court, -namely: is the native-born son of permanently domiciled Chinese parents a citizen of the United States? is that he is a citizen regardless of being born in the US of Chinese immigrants.
THAT is the FULL judgement of the Wong opinion (aside from its implications for immigrant fathers).

You need to read by last two expositions: Our Asinine Citizenship Perversion; and NATURAL NATIONALITY; BRITAIN, US, & MEXICO.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

I've had some recent thoughts about Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer that should be shared, so since Mario opened the door, here goes;

"Rudolph with your nose so bright..."

When the hell did "shiny" and "bright" become synonymous with "glowing"? If you have a bright shiny red Christmas ornament, does it glow when you turn off all of the lights?
Frosted light bulbs glow, but they do not shine or gleam with reflectivity. There is no real connection between shine and glow, -between reflection and emission.

The lame song was possible only because of an ambiguous overlap of language by which things that glow brightly are also said to shine brightly.

That lame ambiguity is the same as that with "born citizen". Only stupid children are incapable of recognizing that being a citizen by law from birth is entirely different from being a citizen by birth, from conception by Natural Law.

What is inherited is distinctly different from what is received as a gift. The former is an entitlement, a right, while the latter is a benevolence, a gift, a legal allowance.
Confusing the two is as common and "natural" as is confusing the "shining" of a slick red reindeer nose with the "glowing" of anything just because it is reflective.

Stupidity, and the ignorance that attends it, is far, far, far to common and widespread. Thus we are all probably wasting our "breath".

MichaelN said...

" In 1866, Senator Jacob Howard clearly spelled out the intent of the 14th Amendment by stating:

"Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States.
This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country."


This understanding was reaffirmed by Senator Edward Cowan, who stated:

"[A foreigner in the United States] has a right to the protection of the laws; but he is not a citizen in the ordinary acceptance of the word..."

The phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was intended to exclude American-born persons from automatic citizenship whose allegiance to the United States was not complete.

With illegal aliens who are unlawfully in the United States, their native country has a claim of allegiance on the child. Thus, the completeness of their allegiance to the United States is impaired, which therefore precludes automatic citizenship."
.....

"In 1889, the Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court case10,11 once again, in a ruling based strictly on the 14th Amendment, concluded that the status of the parents was crucial in determining the citizenship of the child.

The current misinterpretation of the 14th Amendment is based in part upon the presumption that the Wong Kim Ark ruling encompassed illegal aliens.

In fact, it did not address the children of illegal aliens and non-immigrant aliens, but rather determined an allegiance for legal immigrant parents based on the meaning of the word domicil(e).

Since it is inconceivable that illegal alien parents could have a legal domicile in the United States, the ruling clearly did not extend birthright citizenship to children of illegal alien parents. Indeed, the ruling strengthened the original intent of the 14th Amendment."
http://www.14thamendment.us/birthright_citizenship/original_intent.html

So the allegiance of the parents MATTERS.

The SCOTUS in the Wong Kim Ark case relied on the allegiance of Wong's parents and thus per the 14th Amendment, Wong just scraped in, and Wong was ruled to be a "citizen of the United States".

So what about the allegiance of US citizen parents?

Sure this allegiance makes their native-born children also "citizens of the United States".

But the allegiance of a "citizen of the United States" (as a parent) must be higher than the allegiance of an alien (as a parent)when it comes to the allegiance of their respective native-born children, considering that the Framers recognized and provided for a higher measure of allegiance for the office of POTUS, beyond that of a mere "citizen of the United States".

If it was the alien parents' domicile which gave native-born Wong his "citizen of the United States" status, then is is the US citizen parent's higher allegiance which gives their native-born children their "natural born Citizen" status.

MichaelN said...

Interesting.

"
PREPARED STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE NATHAN DEAL, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF GEORGIA

Mr. Chairman, thank you for holding this important hearing to address the critical issue of birthright citizenship. I am the original sponsor of H.R. 698, the ''Citizenship Reform Act'' which aims to do away with birthright citizenship by amending the Immigration and Nationality Act. Specifically my legislation would deny citizenship at birth to children born in the United States of parents who are not citizens or permanent resident aliens. The bill grants citizenship to a child born out of wedlock in the United States only if the mother is a citizen or national of the United States or an alien who is lawfully admitted for permanent residence and maintains her residence in the United States. To date my bill has 45 cosponsors and has received widespread support from those groups serious about reforming our nation's immigration laws.

Page 83 PREV PAGE TOP OF DOC


As you know, any child born in the United States is granted automatic American citizenship regardless of whether or not the baby's parents are legal residents. This is a supposed ''right'' granted by the Fourteenth Amendment's citizenship clause which states that ''all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States.'' The original intent of this clause was to guarantee citizenship to all freed slaves but has since become an attractive incentive for illegal immigrants.

Some have contended my legislation is insufficient to address the birthright issue, as a restriction on citizenship would require a Constitutional amendment. I do not agree with this assessment. As Dr. John Eastman and numerous other outstanding legal minds have contended, current interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment is not only misguided but also has profound consequences for the democratic character of our federal government. While the Supreme Court has addressed the issue in passing, it has never squarely dealt with the question of birthright citizenship as understood within the bounds of the Fourteenth Amendment. In the very least, my legislation would force such a decision—a decision which I firmly believe would be found in our favor.

Beyond the legal arguments, it is important to understand the financial consequences of our birthright citizenship policies. An estimated 300,000 babies are born to illegal immigrants in this country each year. As we all know, these children are automatically granted citizenship. The cost of caring for these children is extremely high. For labor and delivery alone, excluding c-section deliveries and any pre- or post-natal care, the cost is between $1,500 and $1,800 per child. Under current law the government is often left no choice but to cover these costs. Despite the legal status of the baby's parents, the baby is entitled to all benefits that U.S. citizenship entails, including federal welfare benefits and the right to vote. When that child turns 21, he or she will be able to sponsor his or her parents, and other family members, to the United States under the family reunification provisions of the Immigration and Nationality Act. One quickly comes to realize the costs to our social infrastructure of such an ill-advised policy. It is my belief that in order to begin truly reforming our immigration and citizenship laws, we must start from the beginning by doing away with birthright citizenship."


http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju23690.000/hju23690_0.HTM

MichaelN said...

Another interesting article....

"Children of illegal aliens are not born "within the allegiance."

The essential elements of common-law birthright citizenship are not present for the U.S.-born child of an illegal-alien mother. It makes no sense to say that an illegal alien has a duty of allegiance, including full obedience, to the United States because the duty cannot ever be fulfilled. A person cannot at the same time be both an illegal alien and obedient to the U.S.

The disobedience of an illegal alien is fundamentally different from that of other lawbreakers, whether citizen or lawful alien. Except during the limited periods of time when the latter are engaged in committing particular criminal acts, they are in obedience to law. But the illegal-alien mother is disobeying the United States and its law by her very presence in the country and does so at every moment she is here. At no time does she, or can she, fulfill, even for an instant, the duty of obedience which is an essential component of allegiance.

In addition, the child is not born "under the protection and control" of the U.S. Government. The mother does not receive full protection not even that given to nonresident aliens if they are in a lawful status. For example, the protection provided to an illegal alien omits the most basic element enforcement of the right to be at liberty on the sovereign's territory, free to act at will within the law. With respect to the government's control that too is, of course, absent.

Finally, illegal aliens are not "in amity" with the United States. They are on U.S. territory against the will of the American people, in a continuous state of disobedience to U.S. law, and despite the efforts of the U.S. Government to apprehend them.

Thus, if the Citizenship Clause is interpreted as a codification of the common law, it is reasonable to argue that there is no constitutional requirement that the U.S.-born children of illegal aliens be granted U.S. citizenship."


http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc1602/article_1365.shtml

MichaelN said...

"In Wong Kim Ark the alien parents were in lawful status. Therefore, statements in the Court's opinion asserting that the U.S.-born children of all aliens are citizens at birth, unless one of the common-law exceptions applies, are not authoritative or binding."

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc1602/article_1365.shtml

MichaelN said...

"V. Conclusion

The current birthright-citizenship rule is harmful in many ways, but its most harmful and dangerous impact is to reduce the political power of current citizen-majorities. If the current rule is maintained, and illegal immigration continues to grow and spread to new areas especially if it is combined with the current practice of counting illegal aliens in the census for apportionment the decline in such political power will be increasingly likely to make a significant difference in legislative votes at the national and state levels, and in electoral votes for President.

This process threatens the ability of the majority of Americans today to ensure that political control at every level of government will always remain with them and their descendants plus those persons, and only those persons, to whom they have given their consent to join the American political community.

At stake is whether or not the current majority of Americans will have the democratic right to control the nation's future including, most fundamentally, whether the composition of the American people will be determined solely by them or instead will continue to be influenced to a significant degree by individuals whose very presence in this country is against the will of most Americans and against the law enacted by their representatives.

Every week, thousands more children of illegal aliens are born in this country, and each is now granted citizenship. The political impact of such individuals increases greatly when they reach voting age and when they begin to petition for the legal immigration of their spouse and their blood relatives, each of whom can naturalize, and hence vote, and each of whom can petition for additional immigrants, who may also become citizens and voters.

The needed change can likely be accomplished by statute. But if not, then a constitutional amendment should be pursued until ratification is achieved.
About the author

Charles Wood was Counsel to the United States Senate Judiciary Committee's Subcommittee on Immigration, 1995-97, 1985, 1987-82; Special Assistant, Office of Legal Policy, United States Department of Justice, 1986-89. This article is adapted from a larger paper, "Losing Control of America's Future The Census, Birthright Citizenship, & Illegal Aliens" published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy (Spring 1999), describing the harm caused by the current policies of counting illegal aliens in the Census and granting citizenship to their U.S.-born children and arguing that Congress has the Constitutional authority to change these policies. A copy of the paper is available at www.thesocialcontract.com/archives "
.
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/artman2/publish/tsc1602/article_1365.shtml

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

I of II

Senator Howard said in 1866, when recommending the Fourteenth Amendment be passed: "Every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States.” The Obots use this quote to suggest that jus soli citizenship was accepted in the United States as “natural law” and was already national law in the United States when the Fourteenth Amendment was passed. They add that Senator Howard’s statement actually defines a “natural born citizen.” They are mistaken.

First, Senator Howard’s reference to “natural law” could have been to how Lord Coke in Calvin’s Case (1608) ruled that any person born in the King’s dominion under natural law owed allegiance to the King. Such a statement is surely contradicted by the fact that certain interests had asked the English Parliament to naturalize Calvin and with its refusal, the court did it. But in any event, the historical and legal record shows that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not adopt this broad notion of allegiance. See Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830) (the English common law’s broad notion of allegiance and what was a “natural born subject” was rejected by the new nation that came into being after July 4, 1776).

Second, concerning “national law,” Senator Howard did not say that there had already existed prior to the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in the nation the English common law jus soli rule that made any child born in the United States to friendly alien parents a “citizen of the United States.” Senator Howard’s statement refers to what the Fourteenth Amendment would do for national citizenship in the future. This understanding follows from the rest of his statement, for he adds, “[t]his will not, of course, include . . ., but will included every other class of persons[,]” referring to the future after the Amendment is in place. We also know that he was not referring to the then-existing state of national law because he finishes by saying: “This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country." So he admits that there was no national law yet in place that provided for making “every other class of persons” a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of their birth through birth in the United States, and not “not subject to any foreign power,” but merely “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States. So, Senator Howard actually said that this big citizenship question had long existed in the history of the nation and no national law was yet in place to answer that question. Now that void would be filled with passage of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Third, Senator Howard was surely not speaking about who were the “natural born citizens,” since Minor explained and history confirms there never had been any doubts as to who they were. Rather, he was referring to whether there could be other “citizens of the United States” who acquired that status as of the time of their birth through birth in the United States who were not necessarily “natural born citizens.” Under constitutional common law, a “natural born citizen” had been defined as a “citizen” who became so “at” birth “by” birth in the country to “citizen” parents. But the “natural born citizen” clause applied only to the President and Vice-President. It made good sense to answer the question of whether there could be another class of “citizen of the United States,” who acquired that status also “at” birth, but not by satisfying the constitutional common law requirements to be met in order to be a “natural born citizen” which were “by” birth in the United States to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth, but rather “by” birth in the United States and while being only “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” Senator Jacob said that the Amendment answered that question in the affirmative, saying that the Amendment removed all doubt that a person born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction was a “citizen of the United States.” Critical is the fact that he did not say that these other persons were “natural born citizens.” He only said that they were to be “citizens of the United States.”

So, as we can see the Obots and their followers are wrong on all counts.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN and Stranger/Adrien Nash,

Wong Kim Ark was a fact-specific ruling which means that its holding must be limited by the specific facts which the Court used to come to its decision. The Court was very careful to point that out in both how it stated its “single question” in the beginning of its decision and how it stated its holding at its end. Despite this clear warning by the Court, the Obots and their followers want us to believe that the Court not only changed the constitutional national common law rule that, as Minor explained, since the beginning of our nation provided not only the Framers but also our nation with the definition of a “natural born citizen” and was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth, but also held or at least can be interpreted to hold that children born in the United States to “illegal” aliens, who are neither foreign diplomats nor military invaders, are also “citizens of the United States” “at” birth. The truth of the matter is that Wong confirmed Minor’s definition of a “natural born citizen,” being a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth, and distinguished that “citizen” from another “citizen” called a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment. Not relying upon the constitutional common law that defines a “natural born citizen,” but rather relying upon the colonial English common law as an aid to interpret “born . . . in the United States and subject to subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” it held that children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents were included as “citizens of the United States” “at” birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.

All this demonstrates that Wong did not alter or amend Minor’s definition of a “natural born citizen” and that that definition, not being changed by any subsequent constitutional amendment or U.S. Supreme Court decision, still prevails today.

MichaelN said...

Question for the obamatized.....

If it were true that it is "settled law", commonly held, a foregone conclusion, etc. and that the SCOTUS in the Wong Kim Ark case held or opined that native-birth was all that was required to make a "natural born Citizen", then how do you explain why a 2005 SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION,BORDER SECURITY, AND CLAIMS OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS was weighing whether native-born children to alien parents, should be at birth, US citizens at all????

Why even have the subcommittee hearing at all????

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju23690.000/hju23690_0.HTM

"This granting of automatic citizenship flows from a misinterpretation of the 14th amendment, as the Chairman pointed out in his opening statement.

It was drafted after the Civil War to guarantee that the recently freed slaves rightfully received full citizenship rights.

When it was enacted in 1868, there were no illegal immigrants in the United States because there were no immigration laws until 1875, so drafters of the amendment could not have intended to benefit those in our country illegally.

One law professor has referred to, "the offense to common morality and common sense of conferring citizenship on children whose only connection to the United States is that their mothers crossed the border in time to give birth here."

Legal experts disagree as to whether a constitutional amendment or a Federal statute is needed to eliminate birth citizenship.

However, there are three reasons why Congress can and should act.

Number one, no Supreme Court case has dealt directly with the offspring of illegal immigrants who have given birth in the United States.
Two, the Constitution expressly gives Congress the power to decide national immigration policies.
And three, during the debate on the 14th amendment in 1866 the Senator who was the author said it would, ''not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners.''

Congress is long overdue in making sure the 14th amendment is correctly interpreted.

Illegal immigration has become a crisis in America.

Our borders are overrun. More than 12 million people live in the United States illegally. Passing a law to eliminate birth citizenship would defer illegal immigration and reduce the burden on the taxpayer of paying for Government benefits that go to illegal immigrants."


If those who were/are native-born to alien parents were/are "natural born Citizens", then what on earth is a US House of Representatives subcommittee thinking, if they are considering clarifying the 14th Amendment, the result of which would strip citizen by birth status from these native-born people and further strip them of NBC status.?????

Hardly something the US legislators would even consider, if they really believed that it was always the case that native-birth sufficed to make a "natural born Citizen".

MichaelN said...

Jack Maskell of the US CRS has a partisan agenda and has deliberately mislead the US Congress and Senate.

Why don't you come out of hiding Jack and debate the matter......... you don't have the guts do you?

MichaelN said...

Read it again obotized traitors.

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju23690.000/hju23690_0.HTM

"This granting of automatic citizenship flows from a MISINTERPRETATION of the 14th amendment, as the Chairman pointed out in his opening statement.

It was drafted after the Civil War to guarantee that the recently freed slaves rightfully received full citizenship rights.

When it was enacted in 1868, there were no illegal immigrants in the United States because there were no immigration laws until 1875, so drafters of the amendment could not have intended to benefit those in our country illegally."


Well?

Unknown said...

obama and cruz were subject to foreign powers which is why they were foreign citizens at birth. Children of americans born in the US are natural born citizens of the US and no other country can lay claim to their citizenship unlike children of a alien or aliens. A child of a foreigner can only be a citizen of the US at best and is automatically ineligible for CiC and it really is that simple. Anyone who has studied Article 2, barrys fake/forged BC, SS# and draft card know the game is rigged. These judges take orders from the politicians just like in nazi Germany or Stalins USSR. Obots should be happy that the charade has been going on for 5 years. They should also be laughing knowing there is nothing any judge and the corrupt fed govt will do about it instead of going around spewing lies and gibberish

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

The supposed contradictions you see between someone arguing that the children of illegal aliens shouldn't be citizens and the obot position are all entirely due to your misrepresentations of our arguments and fallacious premises. Someone can argue that the children of illegals shouldn't be citizens while understanding that they are currently considered natural born citizens.

Just to be clear, we're arguing that the Founding Fathers defined "natural born" in the same manner that the British did. First and foremost was the principle of jus soli---the same principle which is affirmed in Calvin's case and was referred to by James Madison and in Wong Kim Ark. Once this principle was established, both added (children of citizens) to the class of the natural born via statute. In the case of the US, the Naturalization Act of 1790 and its successors (which, as notLinda pointed out, were all substantively the same as regards the children of US citizens born abroad being natural born citizens). This position, unlike any birther theory, is consistent with all US statute and judicial rulings as well as every credible authority. Here is a partial list of sources that are in agreement with the obot position: Justice O'Connor, Justice Scalia, James Madison, Wong Kim Ark, Minor v. Happersett, every available textbook, the Congressional Research Service, Emmer de Vattel, the Naturalization Act of 1790 and all of its successors, Ankeny v. Daniels, 110th US Congress, 112th US Congress, the Clinton campaign, the McCain campaign, the Romney campaign, Justice Roberts, a clear majority of US voters in 2008, a clear majority of US voters in 2012, every court which Mario has argued in front of, the US Constitution, US common law... well, you get the idea.

Birthers like yourself, on the other hand, seem to argue their case by misrepresenting their opponents, cherry picking sources, begging the question, non sequiturs, fallacious assumptions and outright lies but cannot come up with a single theory which is consistent with all of the evidence. The truth is clear to anyone with a modicum of objectivity and common sense and it's not what you and your ilk are peddling.

Given the general dishonesty of birthers and the complete lack of evidence to support allegations of bias, why should Jack Maskell do anything, even in the unlikely event that he knows about your baseless allegations?

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

That is completely irrelevant to the citizenship of President Obama (or Rafael Cruz, for that matter). Not to mention that something said in committee is neither guaranteed to be right nor anywhere near becoming law.

Here's a question for you: why do birthers always misrepresent John Jay by implying or outright stating that "natural born" must be the strongEST possible check against the admission of foreigners when anyone who actually looks up what Jay wrote knows that he only suggested a strong check to George Washington? How weak does an argument need to be before people resort to such an obvious straw man?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You presented three separate post here. I approved two out of the three. The first one which I did not approve is nothing more than a personal attack on me and misrepresentation of fact regarding how the courts have viewed my “natural born citizen” argument. You did not provide facts, analysis, or reasoning pertaining to the “natural born citizen” question which supports your personal attacks and misstatements.

You are welcome to comment here, as you can see by my allowing your past and other two postings to go through. Actually, I welcome any Obot or other person who wants to comment here in his or her effort to demonstrate that I am mistaken in my position. But I am not going to allow Monty Obots like you or anyone else to come here and say that I am wrong by simply saying that I am wrong and without providing a reasoned argument that supports his or her position and with personal attacks upon me to boot.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

1. “. . . they are currently considered natural born citizens.” Reply: By whom? You do not tell us who considers the children of illegal aliens to be “natural born citizens.”

2. “. . . we're arguing that the Founding Fathers defined "natural born" in the same manner that the British did.” Reply: You have no evidence that the Founding Fathers defined a “natural born citizen” the same way the British defined a “natural-born subject.”

3. “First and foremost was the principle of jus soli---the same principle which is affirmed in Calvin's case.” Reply: While Lord Coke gave importance to the fact that Calvin was born in his dominion, he still had to naturalize Calvin at birth in order to make him an English “natural-born subject.”

4. “. . . and was referred to by James Madison.” Reply: Whatever James Madison said about jus soli being sufficient to make anyone a “citizen” pertained to being considered a “citizen of the United States” for purposes of serving in Congress, not a “natural born citizen” for purposes of serving as President. His position is clearly stated in the citizenship case of James McClure, wherein his administration found that the U.S.-born McClure was not a citizen “by” or “at” birth, but rather only became a citizen after his British father naturalized to be a “citizen of the United States” and McClure was then dwelling in the United States.

5. “. . . and in Wong Kim Ark.” Reply: The jus soli rule relied upon in Wong Kim Ark (as modified by the Court when making material to its holding that Wong’s parents were permanently domiciled and residents of the United States) was only used to make Wong a “citizen of the United States” “at” birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment, not a “natural born citizen” by virtue of constitutional national common law.

6. “Once this principle was established, both added (children of citizens) to the class of the natural born via statute.” Reply: You insist that an Act of Congress can make a “natural born citizen.” First, the Constitution gives Congress in matters of citizenship only the power to make uniform the rules of naturalization. In fact, in the 1790 Naturalization Act, the First Congress only said that those children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” This act was also only retroactive and not prospective. And under the Naturalization Act of 1802, children who were born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents who obtained that status after 1802 where treated as alien born. A child cannot be alien born in one period of our constitutional history and then become a “natural born citizen” in another. Second, the very case that you rely upon, although mistakenly, Wong Kim Ark, along with Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (majority and dissent) inform that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents can be made “citizens” only by the naturalization power of Congress. It cannot be reasonably maintained with a straight face that a naturalized “citizen of the United States” is at the same time also “natural born citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

7. “In the case of the US, the Naturalization Act of 1790 and its successors (which, as notLinda pointed out, were all substantively the same as regards the children of US citizens born abroad being natural born citizens).” Reply: The early naturalization acts were substantially the same as Minor pointed out. But that was in how they all treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born, which is also consistent with Minor’s explanation that at common law children born in the U.S. to U.S. “citizen” parents were “citizens” like their parents and because they were “citizens” “by” birth alone also “natural born citizens,” and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners.” There was not a hint by the Court that that common law rule had ever been abrogated by any Act of Congress. Additionally, if these naturalization acts did not treat children born in the U.S to alien parents as alien born and jus soli had been so well settled as you maintain, the Court would not have said that “there have been doubts” whether children “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents were even “citizens” and that only “some authorities” (without even naming them) maintained that they were. Moreover, clearly these naturalization acts were not the same regarding the 1790 Act using the clause “natural born citizen” and the latter acts using “citizen of the United States.” You and Unknown/NotLinda’s position is as absurd as one arguing that there is no difference in Article I and Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 between a “natural born Citizen” and a “Citizen of the United States.”

8. “This position, unlike any birther theory, is consistent with all US statute and judicial rulings as well as every credible authority. Here is a partial list of sources that are in agreement with the obot position: Justice O'Connor, Justice Scalia, James Madison, Wong Kim Ark, Minor v. Happersett, every available textbook, the Congressional Research Service, Emmer de Vattel, the Naturalization Act of 1790 and all of its successors, Ankeny v. Daniels, 110th US Congress, 112th US Congress, the Clinton campaign, the McCain campaign, the Romney campaign, Justice Roberts, a clear majority of US voters in 2008, a clear majority of US voters in 2012, every court which Mario has argued in front of, the US Constitution, US common law.” Reply: Just parading statutes, persons, and lower court judges who you consider to be authorities on the “natural born citizen” question without providing the reasoning and understanding which supports their position does not prove your point or demonstrate that I am wrong.

9. “Birthers like yourself, on the other hand, seem to argue their case by misrepresenting their opponents, cherry picking sources, begging the question, non sequiturs, fallacious assumptions and outright lies but cannot come up with a single theory which is consistent with all of the evidence.” Reply: I have more than done so. Your simply saying that I have not without demonstrating it is of no value.

10. “The truth is clear to anyone with a modicum of objectivity and common sense and it's not what you [Slartibartfast] and your ilk [the Obots] are peddling.” Reply: I agree.

11. “Given the general dishonesty of birthers and the complete lack of evidence to support allegations of bias, why should Jack Maskell do anything, even in the unlikely event that he knows about your baseless allegations?” Reply: As far as Jack Maskell is concerned, I have more than adequately demonstrated that his theory on the definition of a “natural born citizen” is nothing more than his personal opinion based on made up and incorrect interpretation of historical sources and case law, all of which has no support in the historical and legal record, reason, and logic.

So, Slartibartfast, if you want to try your hand again, feel free to do so.

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"MichaelN,
Someone can argue that the children of illegals shouldn't be citizens while understanding that they are currently considered natural born citizens.

These people at the judiciary committee hearing are not just "someone", they are the top of the line, and their witnesses i.e.....

Dr. Stanley A. Renshon, Professor, City University of New York Graduate Center

Dr. John Fonte, Senior Fellow, The Hudson Institute

Dr. John C. Eastman, Professor, Chapman University School of Law

Mr. Peter Spiro, Associate Dean for Faculty Development and Dean and Virginia Rusk Professor of International Law, University of Georgia School of Law

..... also top of the line EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELD, way above the clowns in admin hearings and state and county courts which you prefer to rely on in denial of higher authorities who don't agree with your partisan biased and traitorous misinformation campaign.

They don't even talk about "natural born Citizen", all they are talking about is "birthright citizenship".

Now if ANY of the committee and/or the EXPERTS IN THEIR FIELD witnesses thought for a moment that those who have been GRANTED birthright citizenship (MISTAKENLY by MISINTERPRETATION of the 14th Amendment which, by the way the SCOTUS has held, does not say who shall be NBC)were "considered as natural born Citizens", it's for sure NBC would have at the very least got a mention.

But it didn't even get a mention by the LEGAL EXPERTS, not even a question on that matter from the committee and you know why?

BECAUSE NONE OF THE EXPERTS IN THIS FIELD NOR MEMBERS OF THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CONSIDERED THAT NATIVE-BIRTH AS SUFFICIENT TO MAKE A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN.

Bearing in mind that the Framers' imperative was to have those who may eligible for POTUS to have the least possible foreign ties, the term "natural born Citizen" was descriptive of that imperative.

It's for sure that dual allegiance was a big no-no to the Framers.

Here in the judiciary committee hearing, we have everyone already in agreement that native-born to aliens equates to dual-citizenship AND what's more, recognition on the part of the committee that the 14th Amendment has been misinterpretated.

The committee recognizes the LACK OF ALLEGIANCE TO THE US on the part of alien parents native-born children.

"It is not clear that the authors of the 14th amendment intended to confer citizenship to the children of persons who have no clear allegiance or connection to the United States."

Do you realize what is being said here?

Let's have a look.

Both the US Supreme Court cases of Minor and Wong Kim Ark, recognize that the US Constitution does not say who shall be NBC, this INCLUDES the 14th Amendment.

Ergo: the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be "natural born Citizens", but it does maybe, kinda, sorta, say who shall be "citizens of the United States".

The judiciary committee's observation ....

"Currently, the United States grants citizenship to nearly every individual born on U.S. soil. This policy—based on an interpretation of the 14th amendment is sometimes referred to as "birthright citizenship."

Why did they not say "natural born citizenship"?????

You do know that "natural born Citizen" existed BEFORE adoption of the 14th Amendment?..... yes?..... it didn't need to be spelled-out.

Now if the 14th Amendment doesn't say who shall be NBC, and NBC existed BEFORE the 14th Amendment, then it is obvious that NBC was/is /can't be "granted", it was a state of being a citizen of the US, with the undoubted highest allegiance.

This judiciary committee recognizes that native-born to aliens have dubious allegiance, that's what the hearing is all about.

MichaelN said...

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/judiciary/hju23690.000/hju23690_0.HTM

Mr. HOSTETTLER:
"Dr. Eastman, in your opinion what class of persons did the authors of the 14th amendment intend to include as being, ''subject to the jurisdiction,'' of the United States?
For example, what about the children of legal permanent residents, temporary visitors or tourists on tourist visas, temporary workers and illegal aliens."


Mr. EASTMAN:
"Mr. Chairman, I don't think, as an original matter, their understanding was that it would include any of those classifications, that subject to the full and complete jurisdiction, this allegiance-owing type of jurisdiction that we're talking about meant that they really could have only a single citizenship.

And the fact that they were children and therefore owed allegiance through their parents to a different sovereign, whether the parents were here legally or illegally, temporarily or permanently, did not alter the fact that that was the kind of sovereign jurisdiction that was envisioned in the 14th amendment.

And it came up, in particular, in the discussions, debates over ratification and the drafting of the 14th amendment with respect to Native Americans.

Even with respect to Native Americans, who in one sense clearly owed at least a derivative allegiance to the United States, their primary allegiance was to their tribe, and the discussion was that that was not sufficient for this mandatory citizenship of the Constitution.

And I'll take up an issue on that point to show what the confusion about citizenship and sovereignty, what impact it can have in light of Native Americans.

In California, for example, we have this great confusion about Indian tribes running gambling enterprises that are otherwise contrary to California law, and soliciting Government monopoly protections for that gaming by weighing in heavily in the State political process and then turning around and claiming exemption from California's campaign finance laws because they're a ''sovereign, independent nation'' and ought not be subject to those laws.

It creates a distorting factor in our politics. That's but one minor example.

The notion that the millions of illegal immigrants in California and Texas and elsewhere on our border are not going to have that same kind of distorting influence if we recognize citizenship here I think, to say that that doesn't give us any concrete arms, I think is to completely misunderstand the nature of the confusion that arises over citizenship questions."

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti says: "we're arguing that the Founding Fathers defined "natural born" in the same manner that the British did."

Hog wash. The founders did NOT define "natural born" because no such term existed. Only two terms existed in post-Revolution America: "natural citizen" and "born citizen". Neither of them needed a definition and neither can provide a definition because both are ambiguous.

NATURAL CITIZEN: one born of citizens or one who becomes a citizen by natural-ization, abandoning their former sovereign and government and becoming an American.

BORN CITIZEN: one born of citizens or one granted citizenship at birth by the benevolence of the natural citizens of an American nation-state (and later, by the Wong holding).

"Natural" does not and did not modify the word "born". It is entirely a modifier for the word "citizen". NATURAL CITIZEN, A BORN NATURAL CITIZEN, A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN.

If Starti cannot offer a rational explanation for why John Jay underlined the word "born" then he needs to shut the heck up until he can.
What is the explanation? The American fiction of political philosophy known as the doctrine of citizenship equality. By it all citizens are natural citizens and thus there are no inferior nor superior citizens. ALL ARE EQUAL!

But only those born as natural citizens are permitted to be Commander in Chief.

Wake the heck up and gets some new facts in your blind mind for once.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "And under the Naturalization Act of 1802, children who were born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents who obtained that status after 1802 where treated as alien born."

That is incorrect. They were never treated as aliens. All that happened was that after a few decades a legal nerd appeared who noticed and pointed out a possible interpretation of the language that would render it ambiguous, thereby making possible an unintended effect of the law.

That unintended effect has never been shown to have occurred, but nevertheless, Congress acted out of respect for the well-respected scholarly nerd and rewrote the language to remove the ambiguity.

No one can show an intent on the part of Congress that Mario has claimed was elemental to the 1802 act, -an intent to disenfranchise all American children born over the U.S. border. Such an absurd intent can never be shown because it never existed.

"A child cannot be alien born in one period of our constitutional history and then become a “natural born citizen” in another."

Exactly. American children were natural born citizens if born of citizens whether it was in 1790 or 1802 or after, whether born in Washington DC or born in Shanghai. Take your cue from the founders and framers who constituted a good segment of the first Congress.
The followed NATURAL LAW! By it, all off-spring are the same as the parents, and members of the same group.

I'd say off hand that they knew better what the fundamental principles of the republic were than the ambitious folks that followed them.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

The debate isn't over whether or not children of illegal aliens are US citizens per the 14th Amendment which only covered the native-born children of Chinese immigrants, rather it is the question of what kind of citizen the native-born children of aliens are.
Are they citizens by law, by jus soli allowance, by government permission, by adoption at birth, or are they citizens by natural transmission of national membership, by blood, by unalienable right, by inheritance?

You cannot arrive at the true answer unless you ask the right question and frame it in realistic terms, -not arbitrary philosophical terms that involve human caprice and choice.
There is no choice involved in natural citizenship. It is absolutely unavoidable unless the parents renounce their U.S. citizenship before birth occurs.

That is not the case with legal citizenship, jus soli citizenship, 14th Amendment citizenship. To avoid U.S. citizenship for their child, all the mother needs to do is walk across the border before delivery. Presto, her child is an alien and not an American, and definitely nothing even related to a natural born citizen.

Its NATURAL LAW, people!

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof..."

The 14th Amendment citizenship clause required something that could not be true of any native-born alien's female child.

No daughter, whether of citizen or of alien, was subject to the citizenship responsibility that American men were subject to.

American daughters nevertheless inherited their nationality from their fathers, but that did not make them full-fledged citizens, because citizens could vote, serve on juries, run for public office, serve in law and government, but women, like children, could not.

Citizenship and women were not a perfect match until they left the country. Then in an international environment, they were no different from American men.

By understanding the nature of full subjection to national authority over the brotherhood of American citizens who bore the responsibility to defend the women, children, disabled and aged of the nation in war, one comes to the realization that by the Wong opinion, U.S. citizenship could be ascribed to the sons of immigrants but not to the daughters.

They would retain their foreign father's citizenship only since they were not subject to the American sovereign authority over all her male members. They were exempt. They were a protected class.

No one could proclaim that native-born daughters of aliens were citizens per the 14th Amendment, but no one would even think to proclaim that they were not.
Their mothers and wives and daughters and sisters would not take lightly to such a proclamation by anyone. It would smack of discrimination.

But consider actual history. A pregnant foreign woman arrives in the United States long ago. Few or no State magistrate will accede to her request to naturalize since it would mean little to nothing as far has her legal rights are concerned.
But if she marries an American man, she immediately becomes an American just like him. "And the two shall be one flesh" (Genesis)

But for a single foreigner the daughter she bears will be born as a foreigner also since she will not be subject to the full crucial American sovereign authority over US citizens, -and following the Wong opinion, over immigrants' sons as well.

She might grow up in America as an American and yet not legally be a citizen of the United States. Instead she would only bear her grandfather's nationality.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Wong Kim Ark was a fact-specific ruling which means that its holding must be limited by the specific facts which the Court used to come to its decision."

That is naive in the extreme. For over a century U.S. courts have been applying United States v. Wong Kim Ark under varying sets of facts.

In Obama eligibility litigation, whenever courts reached the merits of the Donofrio/Apuzzo theory, they rejected it on the authority of US v. Wong Kim Ark. Is that a novel stretch by modern courts? Absolutely not. It was there from day one. The dissent by Chief Justice Fuller, joined by Justice Harlan, recognized the decision's application to Article II eligibility.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The Court was very careful to point that out in both how it stated its 'single question' in the beginning of its decision and how it stated its holding at its end."

That does not limit the applicability of its reasoning.

Note also that Minor v. Happerset waives all considerations but one:

"The question is presented in this case, whether, since the adoption of the fourteenth amendment, a woman, who is a citizen of the United States and of the State of Missouri, is a voter in that State, notwithstanding the provision of the constitution and laws of the State, which confine the right of suffrage to men alone. We might, perhaps, decide the case upon other grounds, but this question is fairly made. From the opinion we find that it was the only one decided in the court below, and it is the only one which has been argued here. The case was undoubtedly brought to this court for the sole purpose of having that question decided by us, and in view of the evident propriety there is of having it settled, so far as it can be by such a decision, we have concluded to waive all other considerations and proceed at once to its determination." -- Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875)


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Obots and their followers want us to believe that the Court not only changed the constitutional national common law rule that, as Minor explained, since the beginning of our nation provided not only the Framers but also our nation with the definition of a 'natural born citizen' and was a child born in a country to parents who were its 'citizens' at the time of the child’s birth,"

Nonsense. The Majority Opinion did not "change" your "constitutional national common law rule"; it said there was no such thing:

"There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes." "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history." -- United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) at 655, quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 456 (1888) at 478.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"So, Unknown or NotLinda, whatever name you need to go by, maybe you can get into your Obot time machine and go back into the past and rewrite the Rudolph story so that Santa has his sleigh led by a 'nosed reindeer.'"

You first, Mr. Apuzzo. Try erasing "natural-born subject" from the law John Jay studied at King's College. Try changing the reason for the Revolution so it was about removing redundancy from the language. Try getting Vattel's words into the Constitution so you wouldn't have to stand on the laughable notion that English terms were defined in French. Try getting the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers to actually take the positions you ascribe to them.

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

Slartibartfast said...

"MichaelN,
Just to be clear, we're arguing that the Founding Fathers defined "natural born" in the same manner that the British did."


Here's the manner of the British, bearing in mind this, per majority of SCOTUS, cited in the Wong Kim Ark case....

The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law"

Let's look at dual allegiance to begin with.

Lord Coke - Calvin's case.

"..and so in case of an alien born, you must of necessity have two several ligeances to two several persons."

Ooops, "subject to the jurisdiction" leaves no room for dual allegiance.

Sen. Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, author of the Thirteenth Amendment, and the one who inserted the phrase:

"[T]he provision is, that 'all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.'

That means 'subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.'

What do we mean by 'complete jurisdiction thereof?'

Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.


Sen. Howard concurs with Trumbull's construction:

Mr. HOWARD: I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word "jurisdiction," as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.[3] "


Let's revisit the British....

Lord Coke - Calvin's case.

"..and so in case of an alien born, you must of necessity have two several ligeances to two several persons."

Then we have TWO qualities that make a "subject born".

British, per Lord Coke Calvin's case, two qualities to make a "subject born", i..e. "nature and birthright"...

"There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances: the first is, ligeantia naturalis, absoluta, pura, et indefinita,42 and this originally is due by nature and birthright, and is called alta ligeantia42a and he that oweth this is called subditus natus.43

[42. ][Ed.: natural, absolute, pure and unlimited allegiance.]

[42a. ][Ed.: high allegiance.]

[43. ][Ed.: subject born.]"

SCOTUS majority in Wong Kim Ark, two qualities required to make allegiance by birth....

"To create allegiance by birth, the party must be born not only within the territory, but within the ligeance of the government."

(cont'd)

MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 2

British, per Lord Coke, Calvin's case, native-birth does NOT make a "subject born", at least three "incidents" are required
.....

"There be regulary (unlesse it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born.
1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the king.
2. That the place of his birth be within the king’s dominion.
And 3. the time of his birth is chiefly to be considered;"

"...any place within the king’s dominions without obedience can never produce a natural subject"

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born"

and this.....

"that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

SCOTUS majority in Wong Kim Ark case ......

"The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law"

Ok, now let's use "citizen" instead of "subject" in the British holding....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the born US citizen"

"that issue is no citizen of the United States, though he be born upon US soil, under US government control, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a US citizen, nor under the protection of US sovereignty."

Kev, it's all been primarily about the allegiance of the child's PARENTS, always has been.

Kev, you are selling your soul and embarrassing your family for the sake of the lying crook Obama...... he ain't worth it Kev.

MichaelN said...

The allegiance of a native-born to alien parents is not equal, and is less than the allegiance of a native-born to US citizen parents.

The eligibility criteria for the office of POTUS was for one with a higher allegiance than a mere "citizen of the United States".

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Calvin: "ligeantia naturalis, -this originally is due by nature and birthright,"

The birthright was by nature. By nature a son inherits the status of his father, including his nationality. That is his birthright inheritance.

Neither have anything to do with location of birth. That passing transient event is irrelevant to nature. Rather, any attention to it is due to the capricious reliance of man on artificial borders having nothing to do with reproduction.

"To create allegiance by birth, the party must be born not only within the territory, but within the ligeance of the government."

It is a gigantic mistake to think that British monarchy-dominated subjectship is a direct corollary to American citizenship.
In America there is no allegiance to a king, to a president, to U.S. soil, to U.S. borders, to the U.S. government. Why not? Because they are not SOVEREIGN! THE PEOPLE are Sovereign, and that fact is enforced by THE CONSTITUTION. All allegiance therefore is focused on it, and place-of-birth is thus irrelevant.
What is relevant is whether or not one is one of The People of the United States, or one of a foreign people.
Birth to foreigners makes one a foreigner. Birth to Americans makes one an American. Just as foreigners are not natural Americans though born within U.S. borders, so by the very same principle, Americans are not natural foreigners by birth outside of U.S. borders.

Borders are irrelevant to natural citizenship. Even the slow-to-understand British eventually codified natural law as the principle of national membership, recognizing that children of British fathers were British subjects no matter where born since they were subjects for life and the king's dominion followed them wherever they went.

Same with U.S. jurisdiction over the citizenship responsibility of American men anywhere in the world.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote: "The eligibility criteria for the office of POTUS was for one with a higher allegiance than a mere "citizen of the United States".

That language evokes an impression that doesn't reflect reality. It makes it seem as though being a natural born citizen is an exception to the common run-of-the-mill citizen when the opposite is true.
About one in thirty-three citizens in NOT a natural born citizen. That number is quite large but only because total population is quite large. But proportionally...? It is insignificant.
If you have 33 two dollar bills and a single one dollar bill, would there be any cause to talk about the superiority of two dollar bills when almost all of them are just that?
Bottom line; a "citizen of the United States" is almost without exception a natural born citizen. But they are not "legal citizens of the United States". Rather, they are "natural citizens of the United States".

Get the concepts and terminology right and everything begins to make sense. Then there is no need to be putting citizen in quotes.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Section 201, Public Law 402, 80th Congress

The White House April 5, 1951
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10232

AMENDING THE SELECTIVE SERVICE REGULATIONS

By virture of the authority vested in me by Title I of the Selective Service Act of `1948 (62 Stat. 604), as amended, I hereby prescribe the following amendments of the Selective Service regulations prescribed in part by Executive Order Number....

3. Section 1611.11, DUTY & RESPONSIBILITY TO REGISTER, is amended to read as follows:

Sec. 1611.11 ALIENS WHO ARE NOT REQUIRED TO REGISTER.
(a) A male alien who is now in or who hereafter enters the United States and who has not declared his intention to become a citizen of the United States shall not be required to be REGISTERED under seciton 3 of Title I of the Selective Service Act of 1948, as amended, and shall be RELIEVED from liability for training and service under section 4 (b) of said act provided:....

(6) He is a person who has entered the United States temporarily as a non-quota immigrant under the provisions of subdivision (e) of section 4 of the Immigration Act approved May 26, 1924, as amended...
(e) solely for the purpose of STUDY at an accredited school, college, academy, seminary, or university, particularly designated by him and approved by the Attorney General,...; or

(7) He is a person who has entered the United States temporarily pursuant to the provisions of section 201 of the United States Information and Education Exchange Act of 1948 (62 Stat. 7; 22 U.S.C. 1446; Public Law 402, 80 Congress), and continues to pursue the purpose for which he was admitted.
~~~
4. Section 1621.16 of Part 1621, "Preparation for Classification" is amended to read as follows:
Permit to leave the United States. Local Boards are authorized to issue to a registrant a permit to depart from the continental United States, the Territory of Alaska, the Territory of Hawaii, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands of the United States, Guam, or the Canal Zone to any place which is not within any of those areas, and should issue the permit unless it is found that the registrant's absence is likely to interfere with the performance of his obligations under the Selective
Service Act of 1948, as amended.
~~~~
Guests of the Foreign Visitor Program are NOT subject to U.S. jurisdiction over citizens, and therefore neither are any sons born to them within the U.S. But sons of permanent immigrants are subject so their sons are citizens.

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"MichaelN,

Here's a question for you: why do birthers always misrepresent John Jay by implying or outright stating that "natural born" must be the strongEST possible check against the admission of foreigners when anyone who actually looks up what Jay wrote knows that he only suggested a strong check to George Washington? How weak does an argument need to be before people resort to such an obvious straw man?"

Reply:
Use your common sense Kev, no one has deliberately or mistakenly misrepresented John Jay.

Why are you in denial of US citizen parents' certain and strong allegiance, but selectively recognize alien parent's uncertain and dubious allegiance???

Parental status was a recognized measure of allegiance, e.g. children born off-shore to US citizen parents ( Acts of 1790, 1795, etc), Wong Kim Ark's alien parents' long-term domicile and business contribution to the US; in both instances to qualify as a mere "citizen of the United States" (Constitutionally not enough allegiance for POTUS eligibility)

YOU have accepted that parental status is a measure of allegiance..... right?

So when it comes to a measure of "strong" allegiance for highest office, YOU prefer to have parental status ignored as if it is of no value, when there is clearly a need in the POTUS eligibility security imperative to measure a quality which can not be found in a mere "citizen of the United States" but recognizes a quality in some, which gives a measure of higher allegiance.

Why is that Kav?

It is clear from a reading of USC Article II that allegiance is a serious concern, is measurable and is required to be measured.

Why ignore the US citizen parents' status as a measure of allegiance in one instance, but embrace it in another instance of alien parents?

Geez Kev, it's ok that the alien parents' allegiance is measurable for the native-born child of an alien, so why not equal consideration for the native-born child of a US citizen????

Do you have some kinda prejudice against native-born children of US citizen parents Kev?

If you were John Jay, and you had an imperative to have a "strong" check against foreign influence in the top chief executive, and as John Jay, you were extremely conversant with English "common law", especially Calvin's case, would you ignore completely the "strong" allegiance that would be reasonably taken into account, i.e. the parental allegiance of a sovereign citizen when weighed against dual and dubious allegiance of an alien parent and his native-born child.

Did you notice that the English common law measures 4 types of allegiance and their differing degrees of strength?

Look at it this way.....

Measure Allegiance.

[1 point = "citizen of the United States"
2 points = "natural born Citizen"]

Born off-shore , US Citizen parents = 1 allegiance point

Born on-shore, alien parents = 1 allegiance point

Born on-shore, US citizen parents = 2 allegiance points

Do you think this is unfair Kev???

Obviously John Jay had thought about it, so why would he or any of the other Framers opt for a lesser allegiance????

Explain!

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown wants everyone to forget about the presence of the word "natural" in John Jay's suggestion. He wants everyone born with citizenship to be lumped in with, -not distinguished from, conflated with those born being citizens by nature and NOT merely due to a benevolent allowance of law which is unrelated to anything of a natural nature.

Legal citizenship is NOT natural citizenship.

The alien-born are not the natural born because of alien parentage and the alienage that comes with them and is inherited by their sons & daughters.
Natural Americans (the 97%) have no alienage, -no foreign roots, no foreign nationality, no foreign culture, no foreign rights, no foreign passport, no right to vote in foreign elections and no obligation to serve in a foreign military.
They are not two-headed citizens like the alien-born. No two-headed citizen is eligible to serve as President because he may be of two minds.
Natural Americans have only one mind, one allegiance, one origin, one nationality, one history, and one duty, and that is to the United States, its people, and its Constitution.
They are not hybrid citizens from two different origins.

If your father had an affair with a woman other than his wife and your mother, and she had a child, would it be considered a natural member of your family? Your full-blooded sibling just like your brothers and sisters? Would it have full inheritance rights or does natural Law prevail?

What if the child was born in your home but neither of its parents were your parents? What natural right would it have to anything in your home or your parents' estate?
Could it grow up to gain guardianship of anyone in your family, including your elderly parents? Could it become the trustee of their estate and control everyone's future?
The obamunists argue that it could and should be allowed to (base merely on where it was born).

Are they all insane? (that's a rhetorical question)

Robert said...

If the founders were as vague or as unsure of the meaning of "natural born citizen" as the Obama insurrectionists claim, then wouldn't it have been more consistent with the rest of the requirements for POTUS if they had written them more along the lines of "must have reached middle age" and "must have lived in a country for a good number of years"?

What I get from so many of the Obama insurrectionists is that they want us to believe that the founders created some sort of "mystery term" out of thin air and were so incompetent that they all agreed to put this term in our Constitution without any argument or dissent.

Perhaps these insurrectionists would suggest that the founders put it in as a big joke; i.e.

"Hey, George, we've been so clear and precise with this document that I think we need to relax a little. Why don't we jive it up a little and, just for fun, let's make up a citizenship term for the POTUS and CIC that no one's ever heard of or understands and just see what happens when your great, great Grandkids have to figure it out!"

"And what if we make is sound almost like some other terms, but not quite the same?"

"Yep, that'll be a real stumper"

"Yep, and a real knee slapper, too."

"I just wish I could see the looks on their faces."

"Yeah, I'll get the rest of the convention to go along without any debate or discussion so the little rascals won't have a clue."

"Yuk, yuk, yuk."

(I haven't figured out how they carried this prank through to get the unanimous consent of the Supreme Court in Minor quite a few years later. Probably another conspiracy among the super pranksters. I'll work on it.)

PUHLEEZE: GIVE ME A BREAK!!

A natural born citizen is one born in the country to citizen parents.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

In your argument on what is the meaning of a "natural born citizen," you maintain that there is no such thing as constitutional national common law which defined the clause. On the contrary, you argue that the clause is defined by English common law.

Now please do answer the following questions:

Why did Justice Swayne in Rhodes say that neither a "citizen" nor a "natural born citizen" was found in or defined by English common law?

Wong Kim Ark said:

“At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of [p680] parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Wong Kim Ark (1898), at 679-80 (citing and quoting Minor (1875), at 166-68).

Tell us to what “common law” Minor was referring?

Please spare me the “real world authorities” and just answer the questions.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Robert,

I think you are on to something there. I can definitely see a Monty Obot, I mean Monty Python episode explain it all as you so vividly presented.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"A natural born citizen is one born in the country to citizen parents."

Being double-faceted, that is twice as complicated as the actual truth.
The actual truth follows Natural Law alone and nothing else.
It is unmingled, untainted, unmixed with any other principle or practice; in other words, it contains no jus soli element. It is pure jus sanguinis.

Royal born = born as a royal.
Peasant born = born as a peasant.
Colonist born = born as a colonist.
Citizen born = born as a citizen.
Alien born = born as an alien.

One who is royal born cannot be a peasant and one born as a peasant cannot be royal born.

One born as a citizen cannot be one born of aliens, and one born as an alien cannot also be one born of citizens.

Royal born,...slave born...citizen born. What do all three have in common? Parentage.
The son is born in the image of the father, inheriting his status, position, and nationality. Where his mother was situated during his delivery was irrelevant if he was citizen born, but...was totally relevant if he was alien born.

Unlike the citizen-born who are predestined for citizenship, the alien-born are only predestined to possess the foreign citizenship of their father, and NOT American citizenship.
The citizen-born cannot come into the world as anything but an American, but the alien born cannot come into the world as an American unless they are located within U.S. borders.
That is a requirement of law. For the citizen born there are no requirements except submitting proof of birth and swearing as to parentage.

Border-based citizenship is completely unrelated to blood-based citizenship. Blood citizens are natural citizens, just like the newborns of early colonists were automatically members of the colony without need of any law declaring or permitting that membership. They were natural members. A century or more later, their great grandchildren were the natural citizens who founded a new nation.
obama--nation.com

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Robert said...

"If the founders were as vague or as unsure of the meaning of "natural born citizen" as the Obama insurrectionists claim,..."

Let's see what the framers "really" meant: No citizen except a citizen-born natural citizen, or an alien-fathered native-born "son of the soil" citizen, or a citizen of the United States before, during, and after the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible..."

Hmmmm, a great magnanimous American spirit of inclusion is thereby instituted, so it doesn't matter if your father was King George III, or Adolph Hitler, or Osama Bin Laden, as long as their wife or concubine made it onto U.S. soil in time for her delivery, her child could and should be free to one day command all of the American nuclear bombs even though he/she would not qualify to guard the President or VP or have any employment opportunity related to such bombs since all such personnel must be natural born American citizens.

But the President would of course be exempt from such precautions because....hmmmm....can't really think of any reason. Maybe he shouldn't be exempt. Maybe he should also have to be a natural born citizen...jus sayin'.

Unknown said...

new citizens of the US at naturalisation ceremonys renounce all allegiances and their citizenship to any foreign powers and take a oath to support the US Constitution and they are not eligible so what makes anyone think the Founders would consider a dual citizen at birth acceptable as Commander in Chief? It is clear in article 2 that a citizen is not eligible now, only a natural born citizen. What is laughable is saying the child of a alien is a natural born citizen when the best they have ever been is a citizen.

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

Stranger said...
a.r.nash writes:
"MichaelN wrote: "The eligibility criteria for the office of POTUS was for one with a higher allegiance than a mere "citizen of the United States".

"That language evokes an impression that doesn't reflect reality."

Reply:
The "reality" for the Framers was that that had an imperative to get it as "right" as possible..... what a responsibility they had indeed, with a brand-new world ahead for them to aim to set-off on the right foot.

Allegiance was a very important issue and of serious concern to the Framers.

It goes without saying that the Framers recognized citizenship status of parents as a measure of allegiance, the first naturalization act of 1790 and those acts that followed are testimony..

To the Framers, allegiance of a "citizen of the United States" lacked sufficient measure of allegiance, to be classed as "natural born Citizen"; Art.II is testimony.

Allegiance of a president of the new republic was a very important issue and a serious concern to the Framers, so much so that, to be eligible for the highest office as POTUS one had to have a higher allegiance than merely being a "citizen of the United States".

An allegiance higher than ALL the other, fellow "citizens of the United States" who lacked the extra degree of allegiance to the US; INCLUDING BOTH of those groups who were granted "citizen of the United States" either by birth or naturalization.

The POTUS eligibility clause of Article II makes no distinction between born or naturalized, when it speaks of "citizen of the United States"...... all "citizens of the United States" are included and/or excluded per mention in Art I & II.

It was ALL those "citizens of the United States", both born & naturalized, who were not endowed with this extra measure of allegiance, and thus not eligible for POTUS, they all were the ones who are being spoken of in Article I & II of the USC........ it wasn't only referring to the naturalized "citizens of the United States"...... they ALL .. ..... both born and naturalized ..... as "citizens of the United States", would be INeligible for the office of POTUS, due to them lacking that extra measure of allegiance.

(cont'd)

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

Stranger said...
a.r.nash writes:
"MichaelN wrote: "The eligibility criteria for the office of POTUS was for one with a higher allegiance than a mere "citizen of the United States".

"That language evokes an impression that doesn't reflect reality."

Reply:
The "reality" for the Framers was that that had an imperative to get it as "right" as possible..... what a responsibility they had indeed, with a brand-new world ahead for them to aim to set-off on the right foot.

Allegiance was a very important issue and of serious concern to the Framers.

It goes without saying that the Framers recognized citizenship status of parents as a measure of allegiance, the first naturalization act of 1790 and those acts that followed are testimony..

To the Framers, allegiance of a "citizen of the United States" lacked sufficient measure of allegiance, to be classed as "natural born Citizen"; Art.II is testimony.

Allegiance of a president of the new republic was a very important issue and a serious concern to the Framers, so much so that, to be eligible for the highest office as POTUS one had to have a higher allegiance than merely being a "citizen of the United States".

An allegiance higher than ALL the other, fellow "citizens of the United States" who lacked the extra degree of allegiance to the US; INCLUDING BOTH of those groups who were granted "citizen of the United States" either by birth or naturalization.

The POTUS eligibility clause of Article II makes no distinction between born or naturalized, when it speaks of "citizen of the United States"...... all "citizens of the United States" are included and/or excluded per mention in Art I & II.

It was ALL those "citizens of the United States", both born & naturalized, who were not endowed with this extra measure of allegiance, and thus not eligible for POTUS, they all were the ones who are being spoken of in Article I & II of the USC........ it wasn't only referring to the naturalized "citizens of the United States"...... they ALL .. ..... both born and naturalized ..... as "citizens of the United States", would be INeligible for the office of POTUS, due to them lacking that extra measure of allegiance.

(cont'd)

MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 2

To anyone who respects the Framers' duty and obligations in that situation, it is reasonable to accept that the Framers did recognize that birth within the US republic to US citizens, carried two measures of weight of allegiance. i.e. place and parents

Normal stuff...... 1 + 1 = 2

High allegiance for POTUS was the "reality" sought in the Framing period, and BOTH parents' citizenship status AND place of birth were IMPORTANT measures of allegiance.

It has already been proven to you that BOTH PLACE AND PARENTS' were weighed and considered as important elements by the Framers in their imperative to maintain highest national security.

Your notion of how it was or should be in some utopian cave-man world is all very nice, but it is a dead-horse, you just keep on flogging ad nauseam.

The Framers set it out that to be POTUS one had to be a US citizen with an extra degree of allegiance.

The nationality acts of 1790 and onward show that BOTH place of birth and citizenship of parents were measures of allegiance......... PERIOD!

The Framers described the "citizen of the United States" with that extra degree of allegiance as "natural born Citizen" and since those who were not eligible for that class, had either (but not both) place of birth OR parents citizenship to be citizens, then that extra degree of allegiance can only be BOTH of the different measures of "citizens of the United States" combined.

Common law describes this as high allegiance.

It's not about what should happen in every down-town cave-man community in a state of nature past.

In the context of the Framing period......

Place = allegiance
Parents = allegiance
Both the above = high allegiance

Place = citizen
Parents = citizen
Both the above = natural born Citizen

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

You are, of course, free to practice any sort of censorship you wish on your blog, and I can see how you would rather avoid discussion of your history and techniques, but I was just trying to answer your comment to notLinda by explaining that I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything---I'm trying to entertain myself and others as well as explaining to you how citations are not limited to merely conclusions, but also admit the reasoning used to make those conclusions to the attention of the court.


As to your numbered points...

1. The children of illegal aliens are clearly citizens at birth which, according to all competent authorities, makes them natural born, just like everyone else who obtains their citizenship via their location of birth---the primary criterion of citizenship according to James Madison.

2. Read the opinion in Wong Kim Ark. You didn't think that all those references to Calvin's case had nothing to do with why Mr. Wong was a citizen, did you? I'm just assuming that the SCOTUS in Wong understood how the Founders defined "natural born"---although it is completely consistent with what James Madison said and the Virginia law that Thomas Jefferson wrote.

3. Looked at in that way, everyone is "naturalized" by some process. Those for whom that naturalization occurs at birth (such as President Obama) are known as natural born citizens while those for whom naturalization occurs after birth as provided by Congress are known as naturalized citizens.

4. What Madison said was clear and since that meaning is consistent with the SCOTUS ruling in Wong, statements by Justices O'Connor and Scalia, the official position of the Congressional Research Service, and recent court rulings in Indiana, Georgia, Alabama and, of course, New Jersey, among others, I think it is safe to assume that yours is just a "crank" interpretation rather than being reflective of US law.

5. The 14th Amendment recognizes only two types of citizens: (natural) born citizens and naturalized citizens. If it had changed the citizenship status of those born in the US to alien parents then you would be able to find an example of such a child naturalizing (i.e. someone with both a US birth certificate and a certificate of naturalization)---the fact that no birther has ever come up with such evidence speaks volumes.

6. In the 1790 Act, the Congress clearly exerts the power to add to the class of natural born citizens. Not only was this power never challenged (and, as notLinda has pointed out, the SCOTUS has said that they continued to exert this power in naturalization acts that didn't specifically include the term "natural born citizen"), but it is completely analogous to the manner in which the term "natural born subject" was defined and extended in English law.

continued...

Slartibartfast said...

7. The way you twist qualifications to say something quite different than the plain meanings of the words is rather obvious to any objective observer. It is clear that the court is referring to the whole of the acts rather than one particular part of it (a part which you are misinterpreting in any case---no naturalization act covers children born under US jurisdiction).

8. All of the authorities I mentioned have more relevant expertise on the subject than you do and several of the citations provide substantial reasoning to back up their statements.

9. So what, exactly, is your "theory of the crime" which is consistent with all of the known facts? In particular, how will you demonstrate mens rea on the part of President Obama when you can't find a single textbook which mentions citizen parents being necessary for natural birth while hundreds can be found which suggest that jus soli citizens are eligible for the presidency? The only reasonable assumption is that President Obama would have learned that he was eligible in both his high school civics class as well as Harvard Law. I can also provide examples of yourself and others at this site misrepresenting the position of anti-birthers, cherry picking, begging the question, using non sequiturs, making fallacious assumptions and lying if you wish...

10. My, aren't we witty? If your theories are true, why are you unable to get a judge to agree with them and rule in your favor?

11. By what standard have you "adequately demonstrated" anything as regards Jack Maskell? Even if someone who wished to educate themselves on the issue read your response as well as Maskell's reports, do you really think that they would be persuaded by your argument? I don't. I'm completely confident that any competent judge would favor Maskell's arguments over yours.

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

You claim you aren't misrepresenting Jay by misrepresenting him again? Ridiculous.

Did John Jay suggest a strong check against the admission of foreigners to the office of commander-in-chief?

Yes, that is exactly what he said.

Is a requirement that a person be born a US citizen a strong check against the admission of foreigners?

Yes, it is---it excludes everyone who received their citizenship after birth (as well as all non-citizens).

As I understand it, Jay was concerned that out-of-work foreign royalty would take control of the country---a common practice at the time for nations without royalty of their own. Does a restriction to only those who became citizens at birth prevent this?

Yes, it does.

Was the word "born" underlined by Jay as if to indicate that it was important that the CINC be a citizen at birth?

Yes, it was.

Face it, both of our positions are consistent with what John Jay wrote. On the other hand, only the position of the Monty Obots is consistent with the Constitution, statutes and judicial rulings (both past and contemporary) of the United States as well as the statements and actions of several SCOTUS justices.

The question here is not whether one allegiance is lesser or not, it is what allegiance was sufficient to accomplish the Founders' ends and the answer is that either standard would do the job---don't you think the Founders would be against excluding any more American citizens than they felt absolutely necessary to get the job done?

Slartibartfast said...

Robert and Mr. Nash,

The one thing you don't get to do in any honest discussion is to tell your opponent what their position is. This is known as the "straw man" fallacy---a dishonest tactic that both of you seem to favor (along with most birthers).

Robert,

We are not suggesting that the Founders used a casual and ill-defined term, but rather, they used a term that was very clear and familiar to those with a background and training in English jurisprudence. Furthermore, it was an easy way of defining a broad class of citizens (through the principle of jus soli) and allowing that class to be expanded later via statute. In other words, all we're suggesting is that the Founders though of the term "natural born" in the manner that they would have learned in law school. You, on the other hand, seem to think that they would have changed the meaning from the usage with which they were all familiar without mentioning it. It seems like you are trying to project the flaws in your own argument onto ours---sorry, but honest debate doesn't work that way.


Mr. Nash,

The court in Minor clearly stated that Virginia Minor was a natural born citizen and while it may have escaped your notice, she was a woman---which contradicts your sexist nonsense regarding female children. Some other points of fact which contradict statements you've made:

US statute provides for the citizenship (under certain conditions) of children born abroad to US mothers and alien fathers, but not for such children born in the US. The distinction makes no sense unless US born children of alien fathers and citizen mothers were already citizens under the Constitution so there was no need to address them via statute.

The Naturalization Act of 1790 (specifically the part which provides citizenship at birth to the children of citizen fathers born overseas) was completely unnecessary given your interpretation. If you are correct, then why would Congress make a meaningless law while failing to address children born on the soil to non-citizen parents?

The citation of Wong in, for instance, Ankeny shows that your interpretation that it applies solely to the children of Chinese immigrants is ludicrous.

These are but a few examples. Pretty much every statement you've ever made can be contradicted by appropriate citations of fact or law.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. asked:
"Why did Justice Swayne in Rhodes say that neither a 'citizen' nor a 'natural born citizen' was found in or defined by English common law?"

The British used "subject" where we use "citizen". U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark explains this issue well, quoting from Kent's Commentaries on American Law:

"And if, at common law, all human beings born within the ligeance of the King, and under the King's obedience, were natural-born subjects, and not aliens, I do not perceive why this doctrine does not apply to these United States, in all cases in which there is no express constitutional or statute declaration to the contrary." "Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives; and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land."

The Wong court also quotes the Supreme Court of the great state of North Carolina:

"The term `citizen,' as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term `subject' in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government. The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people; and he who before was a `subject of the king' is now `a citizen of the State.'"


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. asked:
"Tell us to what 'common law' Minor was referring?"

Minor was referring to all the law that the Framers would have known. Some followed jus soli; others jus sanguinis. Some granted either. Maybe some required both. The Minor Court focused on the one issue of the case, and thus found no need to resolve just what our law of birthright citizenship is.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. asked:
"Please spare me the 'real world authorities' and just answer the questions."

I've granted your request that I answer the questions. I previously answered essentially the same questions, but just in case I had left any gaps in my prior answers, I've taken this opportunity to fill you in.

As for sparing you the real world authorities, that is beyond my power. I did not advise you or your clients to go to court. You, not I, could have spared yourself the failure and defeat.

A couple weeks ago my fellow MPO Slartibartfast wrote, "I would pay to see you or Mario given the chance to argue the merits of your theories before a valid court and against competent opposing counsel". I do not join him in that. I don't know how seriously he meant it -- following up to the point that money changes hands strikes me as far-fetched -- but either way it's not something I'd propose. I'll bait cranks into e-tantrums, but not into real-world demise.

Carlyle said...

Robert is right again. CLEARLY the NBC phrase meant something particular and specific to the Framers. Otherwise, they would have used another phrase or spelled it out in more detail.

It should not be hard to figure out what they meant. For a start, one must use ONLY materials available to them at the time. Any "clarification" since that time is just muddying the water.

Most especially those who seek to impose a wide inclusive sort of definition are modernists and revisionists.

As I have said before - it is a valid argument, or at least a point of debate, that the old definition is outmoded and that in modern times of globalization, a more inclusive restriction is needed. In which case, one can talk about amending the requirement. But to 'wish' it were something else or to 'redefine' it is disingenuous and contrary to the spirit of the constitution.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti' wrote: "The court in Minor clearly stated that Virginia Minor was a natural born citizen and while it may have escaped your notice, she was a woman---which contradicts your sexist nonsense regarding female children."

You sir, have thereby confirmed how big a fool you are. You dare to negatively and falsely label what I've written and yet are totally incapable or refuting even a little speck of it and don't even dare attempting to do so.
Instead you erroneously shine the spotlight on the USSC with the false claim that their unrelated statements invalidate something I've written, when you are not able to show even a scintilla of nexus between the two. That is the self-validation of a scoundrel. Your pretense to logic and fact is despicable and pathetic.

also..."US statute provides for the citizenship...of children born abroad to US mothers and alien fathers, but not for such children born in the US. The distinction makes no sense unless US born children of alien fathers and citizen mothers were already citizens under the Constitution so there was no need to address them via statute."

"No sense"? I didn't say it made sense other than by the false presumption that all souls born within U.S. territory are granted citizenship. Well, some are and some are not. Those who are not are those born of "non-immigrant aliens" who are not subject to the jurisdiction that the U.S. government rightfully wields over U.S. citizens and immigrants.

Quoting from my previous post:
3. Section 1611.11, DUTY & RESPONSIBILITY TO REGISTER, is amended to read as follows:

Sec. 1611.11 ALIENS WHO ARE NOT REQUIRED TO REGISTER.
(a) A male alien who is now in or who hereafter enters the United States and who has not declared his intention to become a citizen of the United States shall not be required to be REGISTERED under section 3 of Title I of the Selective Service Act of 1948, as amended, and shall be RELIEVED from liability for training and service under section 4 (b) of said act provided:....

Such persons are NOT subject to any government's political authority other than their own. They cannot be ordered to not leave the country, to not visit nor trade with certain nations, to register with Selective Service.
They are GUESTS of the U.S. government and are thus EXEMPT from subjection to its political authority. This is grade-school stuff.

continued...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues...

Under the century old institutionalized error of Attorney General John Griggs, it is falsely presumed that US-born children of NON-immigrants are also citizens, and based on that falsehood, there was never a push to write a statute to provide citizenship through the mother for US-born children who were NOT born of a legal immigrant subject to the full political authority of the American government.
So children of male "Foreign Visitor Program" guests fell through the cracks of actual American law since the Wong opinion only covered native-born children of immigrants, -NOT non-immigrants as Griggs falsely or deceitfully declared.

He had no authority to make a giant leap beyond the court's opinion, and though his institutionalized error may be, and is, national policy, it nevertheless, is NOT national law.

The Attorney General and the President could overturn that error with their signature so ordering it since it is not the product of Congress nor the SCOTUS.

Thus, Obama is not a citizen through his mother, his father, nor through native-birth per the 14th Amendment. His national membership is non-existent except as a presumption based on ignorance and error.

you wrote: "The NA of 1790 (specifically the part which provides citizenship at birth to the children of citizen fathers born overseas)..."

You understand nothing. The NA provided no citizenship to anyone. It merely declared the citizenship that automatically already existed so that numbskulls like yourself would not misunderstand who are citizens and who are aliens.

continued...

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Robert, I think you are on to something there. I can definitely see a Monty Obot, I mean Monty Python episode explain it all as you so vividly presented."

I'm seeing something more like "The Office": awkward, uncomfortable humor. A character says the wrong thing then just keeps making it worse. Unlike you, Mr. Apuzzo, I'm not just imagining it. There's video:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Mario+Apuzzo+NJ+Ballot+Challenge

It's kind of long and slow -- you didn't actually intend to make a comedy -- but some bits are brilliant. The poor judge cannot understand why you are showing a photograph of Obama as a young man, and asks whether your are arguing that it is Barack Obama in the photo or that it is not. You say you don't know. You refer to the totality of your evidence after making painfully obvious that you don't have any.

My favorite part I've teased you about before. It's about 39:20 into the second video. ALJ Masin had done his homework. He reads a quote from U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark and asks you, "Doesn't that say that English common law -- whatever that was, whatever the definitions under English common law were -- that that was what was adopted in the Constitution?"

You responded: "With all due respect to the United States Supreme Court, and to Justice Grey, there's no support for what he says."

Esquire Apuzzo, the New Jersey Office of Administrative Law does not review whether decisions of the United States Supreme Court include sufficient support. My point there is not that you actually thought otherwise. You are a working attorney with a respectable BV rating from Martindale. My point is that the only plausible reason for you to lead with something so utterly useless is that you knew you had nothing better.

You are free to go right on with your Alinsky tactics. You can go right on making and approving personal attacks even as you decry and reject comments for lightly doing likewise toward you. Go ahead and ridicule us as "Monty Python Obots". Some Fogbowers feel insulted, but only because you belittle our appreciation of British comedy.

And -- fair is fair -- near as I could tell you directed "Monty Python Obot" at me. That was a read worthy of Dim of the Yard.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues:

Congress had no authority to naturalize nor control immigration. Both matters remained under the sovereignty of the individual nation-States of America.

All Congress was tasked with doing was to make the State laws uniform, -not to usurp State authority regarding the process of naturalization.

Understand this: all naturalization was State naturalization. All direct citizenship was State citizenship. U.S. citizenship was derivative in nature, -an extension of State citizenship. If one was not born a citizen or made a citizen of a State, then they were not a citizen of anything unless born in the future District of Columbia or within territory claimed by the new government.
Also, all male natural born citizens were natural born State citizens and thus eligible to be President.

Also, understand that the NA of 1790 did NOT "provide" citizenship to foreign-born American children. Rather, it DECLARED their citizenship -which was natural citizenship, with all such children being born as natural citizens just like their siblings and peers who happened to be native-born. They were national members by blood.

They declared them natural born citizens because they wanted all to understand that parentage, patrilineal descent, inheritance, blood connection, i.e., Natural Law, results in natural members of the nation.
AND...all natural sons of American fathers were eligible to serve as President because they, and their citizenship, were equal in every respect to their brothers.
They were NOT second-class citizens! There are no second-class citizens in America. That would be antithetical to American values.
Command of the American Military was the one lone isolated exception to total equality regardless of origin.

Soil meant absolutely nothing to the founders. That was the wicked system of King George who claimed all souls born on his soil.

That evil became a good in a few states that granted "son of the soil" citizenship to native-born children of foreign immigrants. But most states did not, nor did the national government. For them, one had to be citizen-born or one was alien-born and therefore an alien.
Prove me wrong or admit that you are.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti proclaims: "The citation of Wong in...Ankeny shows that your interpretation that it applies solely to the children of Chinese immigrants is ludicrous."

My point was that it was addressed to children of Chinese immigrants, but I see you chose to use the word "shows" instead of "proves" which shows me that you don't give a damn about what is true and provable, -especially since the truth disproves your embraced dogma.

You are not here to seek nor share the truth but to promote the erroneous opinions of ignorant men, -opinions you are incapable of defending with facts and logic, -opinions that support the false legitimacy of the Obamunist in the White House.

"Pretty much every statement you've ever made can be contradicted by appropriate citations of fact or law."

And yet you refrain from citing any!?? What facts have you submitted that contradict anything I've written? You make unsupported declarations as if the mere citation of them is authoritative.

Your absence of facts and logic regarding the facts I've shared is essentially total in nature.
I've been waiting four years for logical counter-arguments to the facts I've realized and shared but instead of a refutation or discussion all that is ever offered is a total dismissal without one single refutation based on facts.

That is not the approach of a man but of a child. You are an intellectual midget when it comes to answering my points. But I understand completely. It doesn't come naturally to answer facts with falsehoods that will fool most people, but you have developed quite a knack at doing so, until you run into the brick wall of truth that I've thrown in your face.

It's much easier to simply call an accuser a liar than to show that they are a liar, especially when they aren't a liar.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Carlyle wrote: "It should not be hard to figure out what they meant [regarding the meaning of NBC]. For a start, one must use ONLY materials available to them at the time."

That would be true if NBC was a conceptual term of art and not a literal English language description. If it was & is a literal phrase, as revealed by John Jay underlining the word "born", then no reference to "materials" is required because it would mean that common language and common logic explain what the words mean.

I've yet to see anyone demonstrate that there was any purpose to cobble those words together while emphasizing one of them until the creation of the combined position of Command in Chief and the presidency. Only then did it become necessary to emphasize that he must be a natural citizen by birth, i.e., citizen-born.

Unknown said...

A. R. Nash told Slartibartfast:
"That is not the approach of a man but of a child. You are an intellectual midget when it comes to answering my points. But I understand completely. It doesn't come naturally to answer facts with falsehoods that will fool most people, but you have developed quite a knack at doing so, until you run into the brick wall of truth that I've thrown in your face.

"It's much easier to simply call an accuser a liar than to show that they are a liar, especially when they aren't a liar."

Though I tend to side with Slarty, I never called you a liar, Mr. Nash. Nor did I suggest, or believe, that you lack skill in writing. You've pushed me to the ugly conclusion that you know full well what you saying, and mean it. For example:

"On another subject, if you ask an obamunist this question: 'To which animal family do mules belong? (Of which family are they natural members, -horse or donkey?)'; their answer invalidates Obama's eligibility.
Hybrid animals, like hybrid plants, cars, and citizens, do not belong to any natural group. They are the product of an unnatural alliance that violates the Natural Law of uniformity of origin."
-- Adrien R. Nash, AKA "Stranger", this thread, this blog, 22 Oct 2013.

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

Slartibartfast said....

" The 14th Amendment recognizes only two types of citizens: (natural) born citizens and naturalized citizens."

Garbage!

And YOU talk about misrepresenting.

What a joke you are Kev.

The 14th Amendment, as part of the United States Constitution, does not say who shall be "natural born Citizens.

SCOTUS on BOTH Minor v Happersett and Wong Kim Ark.....

"The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."

The English common law (which you desperately cling to) specifically rejected native-birth as sufficient to make an English natural born subject.

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:

There be regulary (unlesse it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born.
1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the king.
2. That the place of his birth be within the king’s dominion.
And 3. the time of his birth is chiefly to be considered;

....that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject"


Of those US citizens who are born as such, per the 14th Amendment, there are some with an extra degree of allegiance, and they are the "natural born Citizens", because no only are they native-born, they are also born to citizen parents.

There are two types of native born US citizens, i.e. those native-born to alien parents and those native-born to US citizen parents.

(cont'd)

MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 2

The SCOTUS in the WKA court recognized these two types of born US citizens....

" In McCreery v. Somerville, (1824) 9 Wheat. 354, which concerned the title to land in the State of Maryland, it was assumed that children born in that State of an alien who was still living, and who had not been naturalized, were "native-born citizens of the [p662] United States," and, without such assumption, the case would not have presented the question decided by the court, which, as stated by Mr. Justice Story in delivering the opinion, was

whether the statute applies to the case of a living alien ancestor, so as to create a title by heirship where none would exist by the common law if the ancestor were a natural-born subject.

9 Wheat. 356.

Again, in Levy v. McCartee (1832), 6 Pet. 102, 112, 113, 115, which concerned a descent cast since the American Revolution, in the State of New York, where the statute of 11 & 12 Will. III had been repealed, this court, speaking by Mr. Justice Story, held that the case must rest for its decision exclusively upon the principles of the common law, and treated it as unquestionable that, by that law, a child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject, quoting the statement of Lord Coke in Co.Lit. 8a, that,

if an alien cometh into England and hath issue two sons, these two sons are indigenae, subjects born, because they are born within the realm,

[Comment: "indigenae translates to "native" NOT NATURAL continuing....]

and saying that such a child "was a native-born subject, according to the principles of the common law stated by this court in McCreery v. Somervlle, 9 Wheat. 354."

Natives are all persons born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the United States."


So there you have it Kev.

Native-birth gives citizenship to all those who are native-born, and it gives natural born to those natives born to citizen parents.

SCOTUS majority opinion in WKA agrees...

" The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle."

Ergo: In the US context, the majority in US Supreme Court case of Wong Kim Ark clearly associates "natural born" exclusively to US citizen parents in recognition of TWO TYPES of born US citizens.

MichaelN said...

Slartybartfast said....

" In the 1790 Act, the Congress clearly exerts the power to add to the class of natural born citizens. Not only was this power never challenged (and, as notLinda has pointed out, the SCOTUS has said that they continued to exert this power in naturalization acts that didn't specifically include the term "natural born citizen"), but it is completely analogous to the manner in which the term "natural born subject" was defined and extended in English law."

More of your desperado garbage.

They also "didn't specifically" exclude native-born children of aliens from being included in the operation of ALL the naturalization acts, where said that minor native-born children of aliens, could only become naturalized US citizens if their alien parents did.

Here is what the SCOTUS in the WKA case said on this matter of perceived limitations and confinements that were neither expressed or implied....

"This court has no authority to interpolate a limitation that is neither expressed nor implied.

Our duty is to execute the law, not to make it
.

The protection provided was not intended to be confined to those of any particular race or class, but to embrace equally all races, classes and conditions of men.

16 Wall. 128, 129.

Mr. Justice Miller, indeed, while discussing the causes which led to the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, made this remark:

The phrase, "subject to its jurisdiction" was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States."

Equally the act of 1790, "did not exclude from its operation" the children native-born of aliens as mentioned here....

"That any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof on application to any common law Court of record in any one of the States wherein he shall have resided for the term of one year at least, and making proof to the satisfaction of such Court that he is a person of good character, and taking the oath or affirmation prescribed by law to support the Constitution of the United States, which Oath or Affirmation such Court shall administer, and the Clerk of such Court shall record such Application, and the proceedings thereon; and thereupon such person shall be considered as a Citizen of the United States. And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States.

These native-born children were INCLUDED, with no limitations, expressed or implied, as becoming naturalized, not at native-birth, but only if dwelling in the US at the time of their parents' naturalization.

Ergo: native-born children to aliens, were not US citizens until their alien parents naturalized.

For what reason did the act of 1795 change the 1790 act from deeming children born off-shore to US citizens as "natural born citizens" to be rather "citizens of the United States"?

Answer, not enough allegiance to be deemed as "natural born Citizens".

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 3

Slartibartfast said...

"MichaelN,

Did John Jay suggest a strong check against the admission of foreigners to the office of commander-in-chief?

Yes, that is exactly what he said.
Is a requirement that a person be born a US citizen a strong check against the admission of foreigners?

Yes, it is---it excludes everyone who received their citizenship after birth (as well as all non-citizens)."


Reply:
Typical obamatized garbage, i.e. playing with words and desperately mining for something to seemingly legitimize your biased nonsense.

It is also a "strong check" to require allegiance via place of birth and parents' citizenship to that place.

So we can have many strong checks, Jay spoke of one in his correspondence, he may have spoke of many in other instances, combining two strong checks into one.

It is a less strong check to ignore the allegiance of US citizen parents as a measure of allegiance.

There may be other strong checks to the point where one strong check might be seen as the strongest......... your silly argument is pathetic.

Now why would Jay completely ignore the allegiance of US citizen parents when weighing allegiance as a "strong check" in one instance of great national importance, yet embrace the allegiance of US citizen parents in the other instance of mere citizenship i.e. naturalization acts?

(cont'd)

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