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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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MichaelN said...

Fogbow Foggy said...

"Loren at Fogbow asks:

'There have been at least 8 attempts in recent years to amend the Constitution to allow naturalized citizens, such as Arnold Gropinator, to be eligible for the presidency.

But there has never been any attempt to amend the Constitution to specify that citizens who are jus soli only, but not jus sanguinis, may be eligible. Why not?'
"

Because all the jus soli only, US citizens, come under the category of "naturalized".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

Very good response to Lauren and Fogbow Foggy.

Of course, anyone who is a “citizen of the United States,” either at birth or after birth, not being a “natural born citizen,” is necessarily a naturalized citizen. So, if the Constitution were to be amended to allow naturalized citizens to be eligible to be President, it would include as eligible to be President, “natural born citizens” and all “citizens of the United States,” at birth or after birth. Since Representatives and Senators who are naturalized citizens need seven and nine years of citizenship, respectively, some comparable requirement would be needed for those "citizens of the United States" after birth. So the amended Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 would read like this:

“No person except a natural born citizen or a citizen of the United States for at least ____ [to be decided] years shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.”

I am not suggesting that the Constitution should be so amended. The point here is that the Constitution as presently written does not allow "citizens of the United States" at birth or after birth to be eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. It only allows "natural born citizens" to be eligible for those offices.

Stranger said...

The Obamunist version:
"No person except a native-born citizen, -or any citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible..."

The Apuzzian version:
"No person except a native-born natural citizen, -or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution who was either naturalized at birth or thereafter, -whether native-born or foreign born) shall be eligible..."

Both are wrong because both rely on the bastardization of the English language to contort the meaning of the words of the eligibility clause to mean what they want them to mean, justifying their perversion of language by the high-minded fiction that either or both terms "natural born citizen" and "citizen of the United States" constitute terms of art and thus do not mean what those words mean because what they mean does not support the embraced dogma of either native-birth-alone eligibility, or native birth-plus-natural inheritance, -both of which are wrong.

There is no term of art meaning. A born citizen is not one defined by a term of art. A natural citizen is not one defined by a term of art. A born natural citizen is not one defined by a term of art, and a natural born citizen is not someone defined by a term of art but by what those words together mean. "One born not just a citizen, but born a natural citizen."

Natural citizen 1787: one born of can American father. ~end of story~

A. Nash


Unknown said...

If that was established law, Mario, then thousands and thousands of lawyers, especially Republican lawyers, would agree with you and we'd have a case worthy of being taken up by the Supreme Court, instead of ten separate decisions from all across this great land of ours explaining that you're wrong, while you hide here in your lonely little blog declaring victory over reality again and again and again.

Very cute, though, intentionally misspelling Loren's name. Not the sign of an educated man, of course, but cute nonetheless.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

I just left this comment at Cafe Con Leche Republicans:

Slartibarfast,

(1) You ascribe to me the thoughts of Phil Berg regarding an alleged Indonesian passport even though I told you that I never said Obama had an Indonesian passport and that I could not make such a statement because with Obama never having released to the American people any passport, I am in no credible position to make such a statement. But then in defending yourself regarding your failed Agnew argument, you distinguish me from "many birthers." The inconsistency of your thoughts in this connection proves the dishonesty with which you argue.

(2) You further continue with your erroneous thinking. You say that the law of nations has nothing to do with defining an Article II "natural born Citizen." Parroting what I said in my response to you, you add that every nation has a right to determine who shall be its citizens. First, the law of nations has a lot to do with defining a "natural born citizen," for that law is based not only on nature's reason, which is the law of nature itself, but also on what the great number of civilized and political societies consider and accept that reason to be and which they translate into acceptable rules and conduct, not only for their respective societies, but also as between themselves.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Second, when a civil or political society or nation accepts and incorporates the law of nations into its laws, that law becomes the positive law of the nation. The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did just that when it comes to the definition of a "natural born citizen." Natural law as modified by the law of nations defined a "natural born citizen" based on reason as a child born in a county to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth. This is the universal definition that was incorporated into American national common law and which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers accepted as being in force in the new nation. This is the natural law, reason-based definition that they incorporated into the Constitution which made that definition the supreme law of the law, subject to change only by constitutional amendment. The Constitution also gave to Congress naturalization power to make other "citizens" (members) of the new nation (not to be conflated and confounded with state citizenship and domicile which status is many times was needed to enjoy privileges, immunities, and rights existing under state law). So, the new constitutional republic did, indeed, decide for itself, based on the law of nature and reason, who were going to be not only its "natural born citizens," but also based strictly on positive law its other national "citizens" which the Constitution calls the "citizens of the United States."

(3) On Ted Cruz, first, your erroneous position on the definition of a "natural born citizen" forces you to take the absurd position that Cruz "is a natural born citizen of Canada, Cuba, and the United States." Just try telling the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers that based on the law of nature's reason and the law of nations, a person could be a "natural born citizen" of two or three nations all at the same time. Second, you call him Rafael rather than Ted, but took great umbrage at Americans calling Mr. Obama " "Hussein." I know why you call him so. You just want to make his eligibility all about race, like you did with Obama. I know how low your kind is and will reach to any length just to win.

(4) All your other irrelevant little commentary on the state of political things along with your personal opinion about the meaning of a "natural born citizen" which is not based on either reason or positive law is not worthy of a serious response. When you are ready to argue along those lines, we can debate the matter further.

Stranger said...

I've uncovered something of some significance which is similar to what I discovered a couple years ago in the INS Interpretations which listed "...whether naturalized citizen, native or natural born." (which was subsequently hidden by changing its url...which I re-discovered)
It's from the 1960 Census which differentiates between the native born and natives of foreign parentage. Those who cling to the faith that all natives are natural born citizens are delusional as seen by these categorizations:

~Native

...persons born in the United States, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or a possession of the United States. Also included in this category is the small number of persons who, although they were born in a foreign country or at sea, have at least one native American parent.
[NOTE: FOREIGN-BORN AMERICANS ARE CATEGORIZED AS NATIVES!]

The native population is further classified on the basis of the country of origin of parents into the two groups, native of native parentage and native of foreign or mixed parentage, described below.

Table A - Characteristics of the Population, by Nativity: 1960

Parentage

This category comprises native persons both of whose parents are also natives of the United States.[Natural born citizens]

~Native of foreign or mixed parentage.
This group consists of native persons, one or both of whose parents are foreign born. [14th Amendment citizens]

~Foreign Stock

The foreign-born population is combined with the native population of foreign or mixed parentage in a single category termed the "foreign stock."
This category comprises all first and second generation Americans. [Note: neither are natural born citizens]
Third and subsequent generations are described as "native of native parentage."

Native persons of foreign parentage whose parents were born in different countries are classified according to the country of birth of the father.

NOTE: ACCORDING TO THE U.S. GOVERNMENT DEFINITION, BARACK OBAMA IS OF "FOREIGN STOCK", SO HOW CAN ANYONE PRETEND THAT HE IS A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN?

Here's the data lay-out table: http://h2ooflife.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/1960-census-3b.jpg

A. Nash obama--nation.com

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Fogbow Foggy,

You complain that a name got misspelled and that doing so is:

"Not the sign of an educated man, of course, but cute nonetheless.

Too bad that the educated man that you are did not learn how to write whole sentences.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Fogbow Foggy,

Being the educated man that you proclaim to be (actually wish you were), I do not understand how you could believe that appealing to collective ignorance can prove what the definition of a "natural born citizen" is or any other point asserted.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of III

Slartibartfast says at Café Con Leche Republicans that both MichaelN and I are wrong in maintaining that a person who gains U.S. citizenship strictly by jus soli (not being born to two U.S. citizen parents) was not in need of any naturalization. Here is my response to him:

Slartibartfast,

This is what I said in reference to MichaelN’s comment (“Because all the jus soli only, US citizens, come under the category of ‘naturalized’”).

“Of course, anyone who is a “citizen of the United States,” either at birth or after birth, not being a “natural born citizen,” is necessarily a naturalized citizen. So, if the Constitution were to be amended to allow naturalized citizens to be eligible to be President, it would include as eligible to be President, “natural born citizens” and all “citizens of the United States,” at birth or after birth. Since Representatives and Senators who are naturalized citizens need seven and nine years of citizenship, respectively, some comparable requirement would be needed for those "citizens of the United States" after birth. So the amended Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 would read like this:

“No person except a natural born citizen or a citizen of the United States for at least ____ [to be decided] years shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the United States.”

I am not suggesting that the Constitution should be so amended. The point here is that the Constitution as presently written does not allow "citizens of the United States" at birth or after birth to be eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. It only allows "natural born citizens" to be eligible for those offices.”

Now you say that I am wrong because there is no such thing as a jus soli citizen needing naturalization. Well, you are wrong again.

You err on how you treat the meaning of the word “naturalization.” What you are doing is limiting naturalization only to a time period after birth, which by law requires the person to go through a legal process of naturalization. But your limited view of the meaning of naturalization is erroneous.

Alienage is being born with allegiance to a foreign power. One is born with allegiance to a foreign power when one is either not born in the country (thereby gaining through jus soli alienage to the foreign power on whose soil one is born) or not born to two citizen parents (thereby gaining through jus sanguinis alienage to the foreign power by birth to parents who are its citizens or subjects). Anyone born with alienage is in need of naturalization in whatever form it may come.

The historical and legal record of both 17th and 18th century England and the colonies shows that Parliament and the colonies were naturalizing children born in the King’s dominion or colonies at birth to be English and colonial Americans. Even though they were naturalized, they still called them “natural born subjects.” Vattel recognized that these children, while born in the country, were still naturalized at birth. Emer de Vattel long ago explained that citizenship based on jus soli alone is naturalization. He stated in Section 214 of The Law of Nations (1758): “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstances of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner.” Here we can clearly see how Vattel explained that jus soli alone (with birth to alien parents) in England was nothing more than naturalization at the moment of birth.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers were the first naturalized U.S. citizens. Most of them were born in the English colonies as English “natural born subjects,” and they became through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution “citizen of the United States.” So, even though they may have been born in the colonies, they naturalized through the condition of the Declaration of Independence and the Revolution.

Under the Constitution, the United States did not follow the English common law model for its national citizenship. Under the early naturalization acts of Congress (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855), any child born in the United States (jus soli) to alien parents was treated as an alien and needed of naturalization. The James McClure citizenship case of 1811, about which I have written at length in my legal briefs to the courts and on this blog, interpreted and applied the Naturalization Act of 1802.

The Naturalization Act of 1795 had provided in pertinent part:

“SEC. 3. And be it further enacted, That the children of persons duly naturalized, dwelling within the United States, and being under the age of twenty-one years, at the time of such naturalization; and the children of citizens of the United States, born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States.”

And the Naturalization Act of 1802 provided in pertinent part:

“SEC. 4. And be it further enacted, That the children of persons duly naturalized under any of the laws of the United States, or who, previous to the passing of any law on that subject, by the government of the United States, may have become citizens of any one of the said States, under the laws thereof, being under the age of twenty-one years, at the time of their parents being so naturalized or admitted to the rights of citizenship, shall, if dwelling in the United States, be considered as citizens of the United States."

The McClure case interpreted the 1802 Act. That case, decided by the James Madison Administration, yes I said James Madison, more than clearly proves that the Obots are not telling us the truth. “Publius” (probably James Madison who was President then) on October 7, 1811, commenting and applying the Naturalization Act of 1802 (which was the same as the Naturalization Act of 1790 and 1795 in the particular at issue) in The Alexandria Herald, concerning the “Case of James McClure,” stated:

“Mr. Rodman hints, that it would have been sufficient for James McClure to have been born in the United States—he is mistaken. The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. The law of Virginia, of 1792, does—for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen, but the U. States’ act does not go so far. A man must be naturalized to make his children such.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

Publius, in 1811, living when the acts were passed by Congress, and the James Madison Administration would know what the First, Third, and Seventh Congresses intended when they passed the early naturalization acts. In that connection, Publius tells us that it did not matter where a child was born. Regardless of where the child was born, if the child’s parents were aliens, the child was alien born. Regardless of where the child was born, the child’s parents had to naturalize in order to make their minor children citizens or the child upon reaching the age of majority had to naturalize on his or her own. The historical record tells us that Secretary of State, James Monroe, who was serving the James Madison Administration, eventually declared McClure alien born, but a “Citizen of the United States” (not a “natural born citizen”), not because he was born in South Carolina on April 21, 1785, but because a few months after he was born, his British father naturalized as a “citizen of the United States.” I will take Publius’ and the James Madison’s Administration’s word in 1811 on what the acts meant and who was a “natural born citizen” rather than the Obots’ today.

As I have explained for some time now, the early naturalization acts are incontrovertible proof of how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizen.” These acts conclusively prove that our nation did not adopt the English common law jus soli rule, but instead the law of nation’s jus sanguinis rule. These acts prove that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers deemed a child born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. Accord Minor v. Happersett (1875). They prove that they defined a “natural born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

For more information on the James McClure case, see my brief filed in the Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama Ballot Challenge in the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania, accessed at http://www.scribd.com/doc/83104811/Kerchner-Laudenslager-v-Obama-Ballot-Challenge-Brief-on-Behalf-of-Objectors-Filed-28Feb2012 .

As the U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) informed, under the “common-law” the nomenclature with which the framers were familiar, a child born in a country to alien parents was alien born and in need of naturalization. Clearly, this “common law” was not the English common law, but rather American national common law.

Indeed, Wong, being born in the United States to alien parents, was not and could not be a “natural born citizen” like Virginia Minor was. Hence, if he was going to be at least a “citizen of the United States,” he needed naturalization. But Wong could not naturalize under Act of Congress, either at birth or after birth. So, the Court naturalized him as of his birth under the Fourteenth Amendment.

Even Wong Kim Ark and Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) inform how children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents are under an Act of Congress naturalized at birth to be “citizens of the United States” at birth (Earth to Ted Cruz). Hence, naturalization is not limited to just naturalization after birth, but also includes naturalization that can occur under positive law in effect at the time of one’s birth.

In short, naturalization of persons born in the United States can come in different forms, i.e., by condition (the Founders) , by Act of Congress (James McClure), or even by court decision (Calvin’s Case and Wong Kim Ark).

We are at the end and you know what I am going to say, Slartibartfast. You have failed again.

ajtelles said...

Declarationism...

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declarationism

"Declarationism is a legal philosophy that incorporates the United States Declaration of Independence into the body of case law on level with the United States Constitution.

"It holds that the Declaration is a natural law document and so that natural law has a place within American jurisprudence.

"Its main proponents include Harry V. Jaffa and other members of the Claremont Institute."

[...]

"Though philosophically conservative, Declarationists such as Jaffa have been outspoken critics of originalist construction jurists including Robert Bork, Antonin Scalia, and William Rehnquist, likening them to legal positivists.

"Bork and legal scholar Lino Graglia have, in turn, critiqued the Declarationist position, retorting that it is single-mindedly obsessive over the Dred Scott decision and resembles a theology rather than a legal doctrine."

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, after reading the Wikipedia very short 3 paragraph article about 'Declarationism,' an 'ism' in a nascent stage of cell division, with supporters such as Harry V. Jaffa, at the bottom left of the article I then linked to Declarationism.com and after reading about it's purpose and intent, I immediately thought of our new thought friend, your nemesis Stranger/Adrien and his unique way of going beyond the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, aka the original birthers, and articulating a view of birth and soil reality that the original birthers NEVER talked about.

And then I read this 'reality' response to a commenter by the founder of Declarationism.com.

- - - - - - - - - -

Anthony Dream Johnson February 28, 2013 at 7:02 pm #

Hey Rob

"Furthermore, I reject your basic premise that a proper state cannot exist in reality.

"I am convinced a legal philosophy can be derived from reality, and once derived, used to permanently chain government, to reality, freeing mankind from unjust, violent governments.

"This does not create a “utopia”, but it does leave man categorically better off than his current state of affairs.

"All of this is not dependent on a document.

"It is dependent on man’s ability to derive from reality a proper legal philosophy, much the same man’s life depends on his mind to grow/collect/hunt food.

"No such philosophy currently exists, which in my opinion, is what leaves men so desperate and hopeless as to believe no good government can exist (and not on the brink of turning to tyranny).

"This is not a personal attack, I sincerely believe many men turn to various forms of anarchy because of the current lack of legal philosophy.

"(What I’m saying is, the turn to anarchy is logical at this point given the complete absence of a proper legal philosophy)."

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, it seems that your articulation of the common sense original intent of the original birthers, or, as you accurately call them, the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers, who wrote the original words of the original birther document of the republic, the U.S. Constitution regarding POTUS eligibility, specifically 'natural born Citizen,' it seems that your voluble articulation of original intent 'reality' in response to the POTUS eligibility 'utopia' wing at CafeConLecheRepublicans.com and Squeeky Fromm at BirtherThinkTank.wordpress.com, might be heading somewhere where no man has gone before.

A new frontier with a new definition of 'original intent' as a new 'reality' is developed.

Maybe Stranger/Adrien can serve a useful purpose and clarify what Anthony Johnson means by his response to Rob,

"I reject your basic premise that a proper state cannot exist in reality.

And,

"All of this is not dependent on a document. ..."

- - - - - - - - - -

Wow, Mario, I never knew that discussing 'original intent' and the 'original birthers' could be so much fun.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo said.....

"The historical and legal record of both 17th and 18th century England and the colonies shows that Parliament and the colonies were naturalizing children born in the King’s dominion or colonies at birth to be English and colonial Americans. Even though they were naturalized, they still called them “natural born subjects.” "

Here's proof from Sir Edward Coke in his report of Calvin's case...

" Calvin the Plaintiff naturalized by procreation and birth right,..."

"But Calvin was born under one natural ligeance and obedience, due by the Law of Nature to one Sovereign; ergo he is a natural born subject."

Read it for yourself here....

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=911&chapter=106337&layout=html&Itemid=27

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

Just so it is clear as to what you and I disagree on, you maintain that any child that is born to a U.S. citizen father, regardless of the citizenship of the mother and where the place of birth may be, is a "natural born citizen." On the contrary, I maintain that in order for a child to be a "natural born citizen," he or she must be born, not only to a citizen father but also to a citizen mother, and also be born in the United States or its jurisdictional equivalent.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

I of II

As you know, I have always maintained that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers rejected the definition of a “natural born subject” as the definition of a “natural born citizen.” As Vattel said in Section 214 of The Law of Nations, and as I have explained, among other things, both in England and the colonies, children born in those dominions to alien parents were naturalized at birth and called “natural born subjects.” Hence, naturalized subjects were considered “natural born subjects.” But the Framers, Founders, and Ratifiers, rejected the “natural born subject” model for citizenship in the United States, and especially for persons to be eligible to be President and Commander in the future. They rejected the “natural born subject” model for at least three reasons.

First, the Framers could not use a “natural-born subject” as their model for a “natural born citizen,” for it was membership in a form of government ruled over by a hereditary monarch and not a freely elected President and included naturalized subjects.

Second, they saw citizenship under natural law and the law of nations as a status that someone voluntarily acquired by choice and consent, express or tacit, and not imposed upon the individual by government for the life of the individual. This natural law law of nations citizenship was expressed by John Locke and Emer de Vattel, who both provided great influence and guidance to the Founders and Framers in the American Revolution and Constitution.

Third, they were concerned with preserving and protecting the new constitutional republic and office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military from foreign and monarchical influence. They wanted to make sure to constitutionally provide that a naturalized citizen or any person born in allegiance to a foreign power was not eligible to be President in the future.

Hence, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers chose a “citizen” as the more appropriate name to call the new members of the constitutional republic. The Framers in Article I and Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, also distinguished between a “natural born Citizen” and a “Citizen of the United States.” The Framers specifically carved out of the U.S. citizens a class of citizens they called “citizen of the United States,” who they provided would no longer be eligible to be President if born after the adoption of the Constitution. They specifically required that in the future only a “natural born citizen” (not a “natural-born subject” who Jefferson obliterated out of the Declaration of Independence) could be eligible to be President. So, they set out separately the “natural born citizens” and the “citizens of the United States,” including in the latter all the U.S. citizens who were not “natural born citizens.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Thus, as Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained, as written into the Constitution, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizens” under the “common- law” the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. Minor further informed that under that common law, they were defined as the children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor explained that at common law all the rest of the people were born “aliens or foreigners,” and could be made “citizens of the United States” by Congress under its naturalization powers. Hence, Minor informed that the “citizens of the United States” were all the rest of the U.S. citizens who were not “natural born citizens.” In fact, Minor explained that Congress through its naturalization acts created these “citizens of the United States.” Before the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 had provided that children born in the United States to alien parents could become “citizens of the United States” only by naturalization after birth which occurred automatically upon the parents naturalizing when the children were still minors and dwelling in the United States. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), creating a new birthright citizenship, explained that Congress, through the Fourteenth Amendment, also created a class of “citizens of the United States” who by birth in the United States and even if born to alien parents, provided they were born “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” gained their U.S. citizenship status at birth and under the Constitution rather than after birth under an Act of Congress. Treaties also gave “citizen of the United States” after birth status to those who qualified thereunder. But adhering to the original intent of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, all these “citizens of the United States” under these laws are just that and not “natural born citizens,” who continue to be defined under American national common law as children born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

I just left this comment for Bob at Café Con Leche Republicans:

Bob,

Here is a short chronology of the events surrounding the Chester Arthur “natural born citizen” controversy:

It is currently reported that Chester A. Arthur was born in Fairfield, Vermont on October 5, 1829. Attorney Arthur P. Hinman, hired by the Democrats, had argued that he was born in Ireland. After speaking to witnesses, he maintained he was born in Dunham, Lower Canada (in present day Quebec) on either the 16th or 18th of March 1828 (it had been reported that Arthur’s grandfather said that if he had been born on the 17th he would have insisted on calling him S. Patrick, “as he was a half Irish baby”-see Inman’s below cited book at page 9) and therefore not eligible to be Vice President.

New York attorney, Arthur P. Hinman wrote a letter to U.S. Senator T.B. Bayard in January 7, 1881.

By letter dated January 10, 1881, Senator Bayard responded to him.

There was no law suit filed by anyone challenging Arthur’s eligibility to be Vice-President on the ground that he was not a “natural born Citizen.”

Arthur served as Vice President from March 4, 1881 to September 19, 1881.

When President Garfield was assassinated, Arthur became President, serving from September 19, 1881 to March 4, 1885.

Chief Justice Morrison R. Waite swor Arthur in as President on September 22, 1881.

Hinman published his book, “How a British Subject Became President of the United States,” in 1884 before the Republican National Convention.

In his letter to Senator Bayard, Hinman asked him what was the “construction” of the “natural born Citizen” clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. The Senator’s reply was published in Hinman’s 1884 book: How a British Subject Became President of the United States. Here is the letter exchange:

New York, January 7th, 1881.

Hon. THOS. F. BAYARD, U. S. Senator.

DEAR SIR:--What is the construction of Article II., Sec. I,
Clause 5, of the Constitution of the United States--that
“ No person, except a natural-born citizen, etc., shall be
eligible, etc." ***

Yours respectfully,

A. P. HINMAN

***********************************

Senate of the United States.

City of Washington, January 10th, 1881

A. P. HINMAN, Esq., New York.
DEAR SIR :--In response to your letter of the 7th instant-
the term” natural-born citizen,” as used in the Constitution
and Statutes of the U. S., is held to be a native of
the U. S.

The naturalization by law of a father before his child
attains the age of twenty-one, would be naturalization of
such minor.

Yours respectfully,

T. F. BAYARD (emphasis in the original)”

A.P. Hinman, How a British Subject Became President of the United States 89 (1884).

***********************************

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

In responding to the construction of the “natural born Citizen” clause, the Senator first stated that the child had to be a “native of the U.S.” He then also included in his answer the citizenship status of the child’s father. He explained the then-existing naturalization law that applied to minors which would have been the Naturalization Act of 1855 (which on the specific topic carried forward the same law as stated in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855). In his explanation, Senator Bayard did not mention whether the son was born in the United States or abroad. This shows that place of birth of the child was not relevant, for whether the child was born in the United States or abroad, the result would be the same. If the father was not born in the United States and not a U.S. citizen at the time of his child’s birth, the son, whether born in the United States or abroad, was also born a non-U.S. citizen and remained an alien until the father naturalized which by derivative right also made his child a U.S. citizen but only if the father so naturalized before the child turned 21 years old and if the child was then dwelling in the United States. We know that under naturalization laws, after turning the age of majority, the child had to naturalize in his or her own rights and not derivatively through his or her father. Since Senator Bayard had prefaced his answer with the need that a child needed to be “a native of the U.S.,” we can concluded that the Senator was telling Hinman that a child born to an alien father who became a U.S. citizen only upon his father’s naturalization or on his own if done after his or her majority was a naturalized citizen and not a “native of the U.S.” That child was therefore not a “natural born Citizen” under Article II. In short, any child who was born in the United States to an alien father would need naturalization and could be a naturalized citizen but not a “natural born Citizen.” That all explains why the title of Inman’s book is, How a British Subject Became President of the United States.

If according to Bayard a president had to be a “native of the U.S.” and if as Obama eligibility supporters maintain the naturalization act only applied to children born out of the United States, there would have been no reason for Bayard to include a discussion of the naturalization statue when defining a “natural born Citizen,” for the element of birth out of the country, necessary to make the statute applicable, would have been missing, making the statute irrelevant and discussing the statue not necessary. This shows that the understanding was that a child born in the United States to alien parents was alien born and only became a citizen upon the naturalization of the parents. I have been arguing this very point with respect to the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. This is additional evidence that my argument that the acts also applied to children born in the United States and not only to those born out of it is correct.

The Obots maintain that the public knew about the alien citizenship status of Arthur’s father when Arthur was born. You fail to tell us who knew it, when did they know it, and how did they come to know it. Other than the reference in Hinman’s letter, Bayard’s response, and Hinman’s book, please provide any evidence that the public knew of and when they knew that circumstance. Era newspapers and other publications would be appreciated.

Stranger said...

Adrien Nash writes:

The mother of an American citizen must be an American or else her child cannot be a natural citizen of her nation. The same can and must be said regarding the father. Neither can be foreigners or else you produce a nationality hybrid, - dual citizen. No dual citizen is a natural citizen unless the second citizenship was due to the gift of a government that bestows membership in its nation to all born on its soil.
Dual citizenship by soil is irrelevant to natural citizenship but dual citizenship by blood is totally relevant and produces a child who is not a natural citizen of either nation since its origin is not uniform and singular. [e.g. a North Korean husband and a Nigerian wife cannot produce a natural citizen of either nation. Vietnamese Amer-Asian children of U.S. military personnel produced children who were not natural members of either nation.]

Only blood connections can produce alienage since it is the product of parentage, and not national borders. Neither alienage nor "allegiance" is attached to a child born on soil other than that of his parents' homeland. The attachment of alienage only results from inheritance from a foreign parent. Just like a child inherits traits from the DNA of both parents, it also inherits national connections from two nations. Such a child is not a natural member of either nation because it is not a pure-blood member of either nation. It is instead only half-blood to both nations. No half-blood citizen is a natural citizen, and is ineligible to be President.

From the perspective of 1787 and long afterward, the citizenship of the wife of an American was automatically the same as her husband via naturalization by marriage, so from that perspective, mentioning her citizenship is redundant since it could not be anything other than American. No American man, until recent times, could be married to a foreigner so if the husband was an American, then so was the wife and mother.

Unknown said...

that was a interesting letter by Sen Bayard and more proof that a child of a alien was not even a citizen much less a natural born citizen. He also mentioned a native as did the SC cases in 1800s. Anyone that can rub together 3 brain cells can figure out a child of a foreinger is not a native but can be a citizen at some point. If article 2 was actually enforced the whole administration would be out the door along with any law he signed being meaningless.

Stranger said...

Nash writes: Since he was elected as Vice-President, only a lone individual like Hinman would have taken notice. It wouldn't have mattered to the rest of the apathetic and unfocused population, and their kind populating the Congress.
No Congresses other than the earliest ones felt that that buck stopped at their desk. Like today, none of them would have felt any responsibility to vet the origins of the President and VP since such a role is not explicitly spelled out in the Constitution.

So the Obots tactic of conflating apathy and confusion with consent and approval is absurd and baseless, but even if it was given regarding Arthur, that cannot therefore be deemed to not be a mistake, -as if they all were incapable of the same kinds of errors, misconceptions, and stupidity as all Congresses are.

The Bayard reply illustrates the position of the federal government from day one; it being separate and apart from the citizenship policies of the States. A few States bestowed their citizenship on immigrants' native-born children, but like is seen in the table from the 1960 Census that I shared, such children were considered of "Foreign Stock", -being included in the same category as the foreign-born children of immigrants as was plainly stated.

Thus they were native-born foreign stock and not pure-blood American natives.

The implications are inescapable. Since 1787 to 1960 and beyond, alien-born natives and alien-born Americans (post WKA) could never have been categorized with natural born American native children.
The problem always is that these facts are never spelled-out in plain terms relating to presidential eligibility because the words "natural born citizen" are never used. One must deduce that "a native of the United States" means something other than what the opponent wants it to mean, and therein lies the fog and obfuscation.

The obamunists will claim that birth in the U.S. makes one a native, but the quoted text from the 1960 Census Definitions demolishes that claim.
It states in effect that natives are all who were born of citizen parents, -excluding native-born immigrant children, -and illegal immigrant children are not even up for discussion.

Say, that brings a question to mind; -has anyone ever read an obamunist claim that children of illegal aliens are eligible to be President due to native-birth alone? If so, then they need to explain why naturalized legal immigrants cannot also be President anymore. Why not, if illegal alien-born children can?
Their position reveals that their position is totally without any principle or logic whatsoever.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I just left this comment for NotLinda at Café Con Leche Republicans (as corrected):

NotLinda,

I of II

So let's see, NotLinda a/k/a Unknown, how many ways have you attempted to fool us on the meaning of a "natural born citizen."

(1) First, you have tried your hand at repeatedly appealing to authority (hint, hint), rather than to rational evidence. This approach is as absurd as trying to prove that one negative number, multiplied by many other negative numbers, can give us a negative number.

(2) You have invalidly argued (as Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell does) that since all "natural born citizens" are citizens at birth, and Obama and Cruz are citizens at birth, they are "natural born citizens." This argument is as invalid (actually as stupid) as arguing that since all poodles are dogs, and Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle. You may claim that neither you nor Maskell has made this invalid argument. (Of course you would given that I have unmasked and consciously exposed the error of your way.) Then your only other alternative is another argument which, although logically valid, is logically unsound (false).

(3) You unsoundly argue (again as Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell) that since all citizens at birth are "natural born citizens," and Obama (assuming he was born in Hawaii) and Cruz are citizens at birth, Obama and Cruz are "natural born citizens." With this informal fallacy, while your form may be valid, your content is false. But the content of your argument is false. With this argument, you have the burden to prove that the major premise, all citizens at birth are "natural born citizens," is true. While you assert the major premise to be true, you fail, although having been given ample opportunity, to provide historical and legal evidence demonstrating it to be true. So, while the form of this argument may be true, its content, i.e., that all citizens at birth are natural born citizens and therefore Obama and Cruz are "natural born citizens," is false.

(4) Now you want to convince us on your definition of a "natural born citizen" by appealing to ignorance (argumentum ad ignorantiam), arguing that since the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not tell us how they defined a "natural born citizen," i.e., today we do not have any evidence as to its meaning, we can just make up whatever pleases our political fancy. From there you provide us with your feel-good, good-guy definition of a "natural born citizen" because as you allege, since we do not know what one is, anything goes until a court (which you also say has no jurisdiction) says otherwise. I note that this approach has been in vogue of late, especially within the high halls of academia.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Well, I hate to burst your Obot air balloon (for the Obot Wizard of Oz time travelers), but turning a blind eye to the extant historical and legal evidence on the meaning of a "natural born citizen" gets you no cigar (for the Obot smokers). Nor does it get you to first base (for the Obot sports enthusiasts). Your selective investigation of the meaning of a “natural born citizen” is a fraud through and through. On the contrary, the historical and legal evidence which I have produced demonstrates that the universal definition of a "natural born citizen," a definition that is based on nature's reason and incorporated into the law of nations, is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth. As the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained in Minor v. Happersett (1875), during the Founding this universal definition, which given its content did not have its source in the English common law, was adopted as part of American national common law. In other words, the definition of a “natural born citizen” specifically and national U.S. citizenship generally had nothing to do with English common law. As further explained by Minor, the Framers adopted this universal definition as their constitutional definition of an Article II "natural born Citizen," thereby making the definition part of the supreme law of the land and subject to change only by duly passed and ratified Article V constitutional amendment. And as further explained by Minor, under this common law, persons not meeting this definition were "aliens or foreigners" and needed naturalization by an Act of Congress or by treaty in order to be a "citizen of the United States."

And Congress responded appropriately and consistently with the Framers’ understanding of the meaning of a “natural born citizen” when it passed the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, wherein it treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization. Congress, with the aid of, among other Founders and Framers, George Washington and James Madison, in the 1790 Act, even retroactively extended "natural born citizen" privileges, immunities, and rights to children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who did not enjoy those rights under the Constitution. Again with the aid of Washington, Madison, and other Founders and Framers, Congress in 1795 nullified such treatment for children born out of the United States, providing that such children shall enjoy only the same privileges, immunities, and rights enjoyed by any other "citizens of the United States," under naturalization acts of Congress, whether at birth or after birth.

So this was and has been the settled definition of a "natural born citizen," requiring that such a child be born in the United States to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child's birth. This definition has never been changed throughout American history, not even by the Fourteenth Amendment, which defines a “citizen of the United States” and not a “natural born citizen,” or U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), which was a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” case and not an Article II “natural born citizen” case. Hence, this is the definition of a "natural born citizen" which under the Constitution and the word of the U.S. Supreme Court still prevails today. I said "under the Constitution and word of the U.S. Supreme Court" because they trump all your authorities and fallacious arguments that erroneously maintain otherwise.

Stranger said...

Mario ironically wrote and I re-wrote this: "With this informal fallacy, while your form may be valid, your content is false. With this argument, you have the burden to prove that the major premise; -only native-born citizens with American parents are "natural born citizens, is true.
While you assert the major premise to be true, you fail to provide historical and legal evidence demonstrating it to be true. So, while the form of this argument may be true, its content is false.

Arguing with minds that stray from unbiased true logic and provable fact never leads to one arriving at the destination of convincing them. They always fall back to their embraced position regardless of convincing evidence to the contrary. A. Nash

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes;

By Mario's stated theory and logic:
"A Citizen of the United States" is a citizen of the United States. A "natural born Citizen" is also a citizen of the United States, therefore a "natural born citizen" is not a "Citizen of the United States".
A Poodle is a dog. Bubbles is also a dog, therefore Bubbles is not a Poodle. [There is no proof or logic that that conclusion is true]

Mario's theory is based on the unfounded assertion that "a natural born citizen" is a term of art, but worse is the assertion that the accompanying "a Citizen of the United States" is also a term of art which excludes all natural born citizen, -separating them into two distinct groups.
The fallacy of that belief is easily seen in the qualifications for Congress, which require that one be a citizen of the United States. By the theory's erroneous logic, no natural born citizen could be a member of Congress since they are not "citizens of the United States".

Speaking of Congress and the ambiguity of reference to those who serve in it, if one refers to a Congressman, are they referring to a member of Congress or solely to a member of the House of Representatives, -excluding Senators who also are members of Congress?

Similarly, if one refers to a born citizen, are they referring to anyone who was a citizen from birth or solely to one was a natural born citizen, -excluding the alien-born who are deemed 14th Amendment citizens from/at/upon birth?

Ambiguity people! All of the disagreement over nbc is due to ambiguity in the minds of the biased along with the human capacity to twist that which doesn't conform to one's embraced dogma.
How does Congressional statute refer to both together? Answer: "a person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization" What it should state is: "~whether by birth, at birth, or naturalization."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash at October 7, 2013 at 10:50 PM

Your parroting my work and simply saying that I have not provided any evidence for my position as I ask of others is ridiculous. Where have you been since the end of 2008?

Seeing that you have a losing position, you are now getting desperate.

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:

It's all about logic, Mario. Not all logic is equal in quality since some is defective, flawed, -false.

The assertion isn't that you have provided no evidence but that what you've provided is in fact not evidence because it is the fruit of defective logic which you are unwilling or unable to recognize.

Something only fits the description of "evidence" if it is true. False logic does not arrive at anything that is true unless it is by shear coincidence.

I've asked you to share the proof, the evidence, that what John Jay wrote to General Washington was a description meaning something other than what the words meant as he wrote them. Where is there any evidence that his use of the words natural, and born, and citizen was a legal term of art rather than the simple expression of a natural philosophical phenomenon resulting from natural membership?

You have not shared any such proof that John Jay was writing in legalese, and that would be because no such proof exists, and you know it. You can't provide what doesn't exist but you sure can pretend that it does.

Also, why did you not address my illustration of your defective logic in the example: "A Citizen of the United States"(a Poodle) is a citizen of the United States (a dog).
A "natural born Citizen"(Bubbles) is also a citizen of the United States (a dog), therefore a "natural born citizen"(Bubbles) is not a "Citizen of the United States" (a Poodle).

Please explain why Bubbles is necessarily not a Poodle, and why "a natural born citizen" is necessarily not "a citizen of the United States" (and thus can't serve in Congress).

You can't answer that request because it has no answer, and yet you stand on it as unquestioned fact. Why? It's totally illogical and unworthy of being argued.

And why have you avoided acknowledging what I shared regarding the United States government's declaration that all non-native-born Americans are categorized as "Natives" of the United States.

You've avoided addressing that fact because it is "evidence" that they are all natural born citizens just like their domestically born brothers, and that destroys your pointless assertion that native-birth is somehow intrinsic to natural citizenship when it is not.
It is pointless because it is pointless in regard to Barack Obama since his place of birth is unprovable, while his parentage is fact.
His ineligibility rests entirely on his alien father, his alien-blood inheritance, his ALIENAGE (which is only acquired via parentage, not via soil).

MichaelN said...

@ Stranger.

The Framers were extremely conversant with the English law, particularly landmark cases such as Calvin's case.

Here is what was held in Calvin's case....

"An alien born is of foreign birth or foreign allegiance..."

http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=911&chapter=106337&layout=html&Itemid=27

As you can see PLACE of birth, i.e. "foreign birth", was an important consideration, in determining alienage.

Place of birth therefore was considered to affect one's allegiance.

The Framers expressed an imperative to exclude foreign influence, persuasion, allegiance and claim from affecting the office of POTUS.

To do this they required those US citizens who might be eligible for the office of POTUS to have as far as possible, NIL inclination for foreign allegiance.

Hence USC Article II "natural born Citizen" (as was recognized by the SCOTUS in the Minor court and in the other cases cited by Mario Apuzzo)meant and still means one who is born of US citizen parents AND in the land of the parents devoted citizenship.

Learn to live with this FACT.

"An alien born is of foreign birth (i.e.PLACE) or foreign allegiance (PARENTS)..."

or BOTH.

Stranger said...

MichaelN, you are interpreting key words according to your embraced theory about their meaning, but the interpretation that you attach to them is mistaken at a maximum, and ambiguous at a minimum.

"An alien born is of foreign birth or foreign allegiance..."

1. What is "an alien born?"

Let's see...it includes the word born so it must refer to place of birth. That reflects your thinking but it is flat out backwards. Born does not refer to location but to the event of birth to alien parents.

2. "of foreign birth"
Let's see...it includes the word "birth" so it must not refer to the event of birth nor to the natural source of birth but to invented national borders within which birth might occur. But let's assume it refers to foreign location, as it very likely might, it nevertheless is countered by the "or" that follows it.

3. "born of foreign allegiance"
Allegiance or loyalty or obedience or responsibility is passed from father to son, -not from soil to son. Allegiance is NOT synonymous with territory.

You fail to grasp that those who are foreign born are born of foreigners (generally speaking) because they are alien born and not American born. Americans are born in America (generally speaking).
Being alien born is unrelated to place of birth. One can be born in America and yet be alien born. Alien means foreigner, not foreign.

It's not that complicated although it can be a bit ambiguous. A. Nash

Carlyle said...

Wow, I have been quiet for so long that now I am ready to burst. Most of the stuff posted on this blog is INSANE! Mario, I don't know how you can be so long suffering or why you give so much space to repeated losing arguments.

I heard Mike Zullo say something profound the other day. It needs to be repeated here.

"OBOTS ARE IRRELEVANT"

MichaelN said...

@ Stranger.

Further to my last prior post and in response to your theory.

Here is the complete text of what was said by Sir Edward Coke per Calvin's case, in the matter of "foreign birth" etc.

"An alien born is of foreign birth or foreign allegiance, and is also called peregrinus (foreigner), alien, exotic, stranger, etc.

A stranger is a subject who is BORN OUTSIDE THE LAND, that is, outside the king’s power."


Learn to live with the FACT that the Framers, who were extremely conversant with the 17th century English law, particularly landmark cases such as Calvin's case, considered place of birth to be an important factor in determining alienage and allegiance.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

I of III

You said:

“1. What is an alien born?’

Let's see...it includes the word born so it must refer to place of birth. That reflects your thinking but it is flat out backwards. Born does not refer to location but to the event of birth to alien parents.

2. ‘of foreign birth’

Let's see...it includes the word ‘birth’ so it must not refer to the event of birth nor to the natural source of birth but to invented national borders within which birth might occur. But let's assume it refers to foreign location, as it very likely might, it nevertheless is countered by the ‘or’ that follows it.

3. ‘born of foreign allegiance’

Allegiance or loyalty or obedience or responsibility is passed from father to son, -not from soil to son. Allegiance is NOT synonymous with territory.

You fail to grasp that those who are foreign born are born of foreigners (generally speaking) because they are alien born and not American born. Americans are born in America (generally speaking).
Being alien born is unrelated to place of birth. One can be born in America and yet be alien born. Alien means foreigner, not foreign.”
*********************

(1) The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court decision of Minor v. Happersett (1875) demonstrates that you are wrong. From Minor, which confirmed what the Framers’ definition of a “natural born citizen” was, we have:
“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

The Court said “born in a country.” The Court explained that at common law, if the child was not born in the country, the child was an “alien or foreigner.” Hence, at common law, to be not only a “citizen,” but also a “natural born citizen,” the child had to be born not only to citizen parents, but also be born in the country. Minor also explained that Congress could through a naturalization act change that if it so chose by making such children “citizens of the United States” either at birth or after birth. It did not say that any of those acts could make any child a “natural born citizen.” We know that Congress has always used its naturalization powers to make children born out of the United States to citizen parents to be “citizens of the United States” (in the 1790 Act is said “natural born citizen” which it changed to “citizen of the United States” in the 1795 Act), either at birth or after birth.

(2) The following sources, most of which were cited and quoted in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), also demonstrate that you are wrong in contending that place of birth is irrelevant to making one a “natural born citizen.”

(a) Commenting on the Code Napoleon of 1807, which rejected the jus soli rule of citizenship and adopted the jus sanguinis one, a commentator observed that the code’s framers “appear not to have wholly freed themselves from the ancient rule of France, or rather, indeed, ancient rule of Europe -- de la vielle regle francaise, ou plutot meme de la vielle regle europienne -- according to which nationality had always been, in former times, determined by the place of birth.”

1 Demolombe Cours de Code Napoleon (4th ed.) no. 146.

(b) In Dred Scott v. Sandford, Justice Curtis said in dissent:
The first section of the second article of the Constitution uses the language, "a natural-born citizen." It thus assumes that citizenship may be acquired by birth. Undoubtedly, this language of the Constitution was used in reference to that principle of public law, well understood in this country at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, which referred citizenship to the place of birth.
Dred Scott v. Sandford, 19 How. 393, 576 (1857). Actually, Justice Curtis was referring to the English common law rule that was adopted by the states, but not by the federal government.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

(c) In 1869, Attorney General Hoar wrote to Mr. Fish, the Secretary of State:

“while the United States may, by law, fix or declare the conditions constituting citizens of the country within its own territorial jurisdiction, and may confer the rights of American citizens everywhere upon persons who are not rightfully subject to the authority of any foreign country or government, it is clear that the United States cannot, by undertaking to confer the rights of citizenship upon the subjects of a foreign nation who have not come within our territory, interfere with the just rights of such nation to the government and control of its own subjects. If, therefore, by the laws of the country of their birth, children of American citizens born in that country are subjects of its government, I do not think that it is competent to the United States, by any legislation, to interfere with that relation or, by undertaking to extend to them the rights of citizens of this country, to interfere with the allegiance which they may owe to the country of their birth while they continue within its territory, or to change the relation to other foreign nations which, by reason of their place of birth, may at any time exist. The rule of the common law I understand to be that a person "born in a strange country, under the obedience of a strange prince or country, is an alien" (Co.Lit. 128b), and that every person owes allegiance to the country of his birth.”

13 Opinions of Attorneys General 89-91.

(d )In 1871, Mr. Fish, writing to Mr. Marsh, the American Minister to Italy, said:

“The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution declares that ‘all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.’ This is simply an affirmance of the common law of England and of this country so far as it asserts the status of citizenship to be fixed by the place of nativity, irrespective of parentage. The qualification, ‘and subject to the jurisdiction thereof’ was probably intended to exclude the children of foreign ministers, and of other persons who may be within our territory with rights of extraterritoriality.”
2 Whart.Int.Dig. p. 394. Mr. Fish was actually referring to the English common law and its use by the states to define state citizenship. This rule, not relying upon the citizenship of the child’s parents, was not and could not be the national rule for “citizens of the United States” status.

(e) Dicey explained:

“[A]t common law nationality or allegiance in substance depended on the place of a person's birth, it in theory, at least, depended not upon the locality of a man's birth, but upon his being born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the King of England, and it might occasionally happen that a person was born within the dominions without being born within the allegiance, or, in other words, under the protection and control of, the Crown.”

Dicey Conflict of Laws, pp. 173-177, 741 (cited and quoted in Wong Kim Ark).

So, under English common law, place of birth was necessary but not sufficient for acquiring “natural born subject” status. Rather, it was being born not only within the jurisdiction of, but also under the allegiance of the King. So, under English common law, first, one had to be physically born in the King’s dominion. Second, one had to be born subject to the jurisdiction of the King. And third, one had to be born in the allegiance of the King. English common law viewed a child born in the King’s dominion to alien parents as being born “within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, the jurisdiction of the English Sovereign.” Wong Kim Ark. Hence, English common law naturalized such children at birth as “natural born subjects.” See Calvin’s Case (1608); Vattel, Section 214, The Law of Nations (1758). But the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not adopt such a rule for the new republic.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

(f) U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1989) explained that under the English common law, only children born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance and protection were “natural-born subjects.” It further explained that Parliament used its naturalization powers and passed statutes to make children born out of the King’s dominions to English subject parents, “natural-born subjects.” It explained that these foreign-born children became “natural-born subjects,” not under the common law, but rather under acts of Parliament. Wong Kim Ark also confirmed that any child who is born out of the United States to citizen parents and who obtains U.S. citizenship status at birth does so only by the naturalization grace of Congress, and not by way of any constitutional right.

(3) The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers saw citizenship as an absolute and unqualified bond to the political and civil society, created and maintained by an individual’s consent. For minors, the consent was given for them by the parents, at the time of their birth and during their minority. Once children became adults, they were free to express, expressly or tacitly, their own consent to be bound to the society in which they were born. British subjecthood, which had its roots in feudal society and monarchical government, was alien to this Lockean/Vattelian Enlightenment view of citizenship.
The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers understood that one could be born in the King’s jurisdiction, but not in his complete and absolute control and allegiance if the child was born in the King’s dominion of alien parents. The law of nations avoided this problem by defining a “natural born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The law of nations also provided that upon reaching adulthood, the child was free to cast off the citizenship with which the child was born and take on a different one. See Vattel, Section 212-217, The Law of Nations (1758). This is the definition that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used for the “natural born citizen” clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. With the President and Commander in Chief of the Military, because of his involvement with foreign nations in time of peace and war and to protect that office for foreign and monarchical influence, they required that he have absolute and sole allegiance to the United States. They saw the “natural born citizen” clause as satisfying this need. For sure, they did not see any child born to an alien father as a “citizen,” let alone a “natural born citizen,” unless the father naturalized during the child’s minority or the child upon reaching adulthood naturalized on his or her own to become a “citizen of the United States.” This law of nations view of citizenship was incorporated by early Congress, many of whom were Founders and Framers, into the Naturalization Acts of 1790 and 1795. The same law of nations/jus sanguinis notion of citizenship was carried forward in the Naturalization Acts of 1802 and 1855.

All this demonstrates that the definition of a “natural born citizen” has been and continues to be a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Both of these conditions, i.e., birth in the country and birth to citizen parents, are necessary and sufficient conditions to be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.”

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:

The founders did not have nor require having a definition of what a natural born citizen is because those words did not exist as a term of art in need of a definition but as common words commonly used in conjunction.
It is a pure fantasy to argue otherwise since such an argument is unsupportable by anything in American law or history.

Mario has put together a notable collection of presumptuous suppositions by uncertain men mouthing what they'd always heard from ignorant men who preceded them, none of whom grasped the fundamental underlying principles on which the membership of free men in a democratic republic was based.

All of those pathetic quotes were from the perspective of monarchists, and related to men who were slaves to their sovereign, as his subjects for life, while in the new free republic of the united Colonies / States of America, the CITIZENS were the sovereigns, and the government owed them allegiance, -not the other way around. The sovereign Citizens of the united States of America owned the government, not the other way around. It had no authority over their natural membership in their own country and self-established enterprise of government.
If you and some wealthy friends establish a private club, does the club secretary or grounds-keeper have the authority to tell any of you that you are not a member because of his or her arbitrary rules?
Place of birth is a totally arbitrary rule based on no principle whatsoever, but instead on an invented, artificial, abstract, invisible line claimed by monarchs based on conquest, purchase or treaty.

It has nothing more to do with natural membership than the borders of your parents' property had anything to do with who your parents and siblings are.

When is the light of reality ever going to penetrate your thinking? It can't as long as you exist in the little legal box you call home.

PS I've just completed an almost 10,000 word exposition on the clear and irrefutable reasons why Obama was born in Vancouver, British Columbia. I'll be posting part 1 this weekend. It's an eye-opener.

Stranger said...

Mario wrote: "Wong Kim Ark also confirmed that any child who is born out of the United States to citizen parents...obtains U.S. citizenship status...only by the naturalization grace of Congress, and not by way of any constitutional right."

That is trash talk. Wong confirmed only one thing, Wong Kim Ark being a U.S. citizen per the 14th Amendment, -nothing more. All else is dicta, and as likely to be wrong as to be right.
When even the opinions-holding can't be assumed to be right, it's for sure that the dicta can't.

As for "constitutional right" related to citizenship, THERE IS NONE so why use that term in regard to it?
Natural national membership, (natural citizenship), is not dependent on the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Rights of Man nor the Magna Carta. It is a fundamental element of the basic nature of sentient life.

It is the basis of cohesive societies and nations, being an upward extension of the principle by which people belong to their own family.
By that same principle they also belong to their own nation. Law has nothing to do with it.
Nothing that is connected to Law is Natural.
Instead it is man-made, arbitrary and legal. Nothing that is legal is natural, and nothing that is natural is legal. Two different universes, but one exists inside of the other. The legal realm exists as a human sub-construct within the natural universe, -from which it draws its natural rights.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

I of II

John Locke considered life, liberty, and property to all be “property.” He said that God gave man, living in a state of nature, those rights through natural law. Hence, those rights were natural rights and unalienable. Locke further said that when man joined together to form civil and political society which he did for his advantage, he enacted positive laws to better and more conveniently preserve and protect those rights. Having to live under those positive laws, man no longer had absolute freedom to do as he pleased as he did in a state of nature, but rather had to conform his conduct to the dictates of his own laws. With the violation of those laws, those same laws called for third party punishment of the transgressors, all done in the name of every member of the society, to deter both the violator and others from breaking those laws, and thereby protecting and preserving the civil and political society.

The Declaration of Independence also recognized the people's natural and unalienable right to life, liberty, and happiness which it said God gave to them through natural law.

The Constitution, as enlightened by the Declaration of Independence, is a compact or contract among the people of the United States of America who adopted and ratified it. It was written to bind the present and all future generations, unless duly amended. The Constitution, being a legal document to guide a nation, expressed the God-given natural rights in concrete terms, calling them life, liberty, and property.

The purpose of the compact was to confirm that the people have under natural law given to them by God the unalienable right to life, liberty, and property, to establish what type of government the people desired to protect and preserve those rights, to document what duties and concomitant powers the people gave to that government to accomplish that purpose, and to proclaim that all powers and rights not given to that government the people retained.

To better protect and preserve those natural rights, the people gave that government the duty, to be accepted by oath, to preserve and protect the people's natural right to life, liberty, and property, but only as may be necessary and proper for that purpose So, the people gave to that government all the power reasonably necessary and proper for that government to exercise, but only for the limited purpose of best preserving and protecting the people's right to life, liberty, and property. Hence, limited only by what was necessary and proper for the government to exercise its duties so spelled out, the people preserved for themselves to the maximum degree conceivable by man their natural rights to life, liberty, and property.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

To accomplish that goal, the people included, among other things, in their government the singular and all-powerful civil and military Office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military. To assure for the safety of those offices and insulate them from foreign and monarchical influence, which the people perceived as inimical to their life, liberty, and property, and thus their happiness, they prescribed certain eligibility requirements to be met by anyone aspiring to take on the powers of those offices. In Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, the people required that future presidents and commanders (those born after the adoption of the Constitution) be not only at least 35 years old and at least 14 years residents of the United States, but also "natural born Citizens” (those born before the adoption of the Constitution only had to be “Citizens of the United States). Given that these were eligibility requirements for such critical offices, there is no doubt that the people knew quite well what the meaning of these requirements were. What is even more telling in this regard is that there is no recorded debate in the Constitutional Convention or state ratifying conventions on the meaning of a "natural born citizen," a fundamentally different phrase from the old "natural-born subject" (subjects were members of monarchies, but citizens mere members of republics). This can only mean that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers were guided by a definition of a "natural born citizen" which was well established and accepted by them.

Given the genesis of the American Revolution being grounded on Lockean political philosophy, the Enlightenment, natural law, and the law of nations, and the law of nations being adopted expressly by the Constitution, the definition of a "natural born citizen" could only have had its source in that political philosophy, natural law, and the law of nations, and not in the English common law, which the states adopted for their local purposes until abrogated by their legislatures, but which the national government did not. And given that Emer de Vattel was the Founders', Framers', and Ratifiers' favorite writer on the law of nations, it was his definition of a "natural born citizen" as found in Section 212-217 of his The Law of Nations (first published in French in 1758 with numerous other printings and English translations down to the time of the drafting of the Constitution) which they used, confirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court in The Venus (per Chief Justice John Marshall), Inglis, Shanks, Dred Scott (per Justice Daniels), Minor (per the unanimous Court), and Wong Kim Ark (per the majority and dissent).

So, Stranger/Adrien Nash, your position that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, when drafting and ratifying the Constitution, did not operate with a specific definition of a "natural born citizen," which as I have maintained contained the necessary and sufficient conditions of a child being born in a country to parents who were its citizens (as so defined by Vattel in Section 212 of The Law of Nations), just does not stand up given what gave birth to the American Revolution, which was natural law and republican government as acknowledged and conceived by the ancient Greek and Roman civilizations, John Locke, the law of nations, and Emer de Vattel, and the Founders,’ Framers,’ and Ratifiers’ insertion of that clause into the eligibility requirements of the most critical offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

Carlyle said...

Mario -

That was a beautiful essay. Toward the end, upon referencing Vattel, etc., you get down the the business at-hand.

But up to that point, it is the best general introduction to The Theory of Government I have ever read. That ought to be in high school and college civics courses instead of the drivel they now teach.

Well done, sir!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Carlyle,

Thank you very much for your kind words. They are appreciated.

Stranger said...

Nash writes;

I too salute almost everything that Mario wrote and would like to see it taught to students nation-wide, except for the one element of false presumption which smoothly but inaccurately conveys that "a natural born citizen" requires a definition as a unitary phrase when it is not unitary but triune (three words with three meanings).

Being as it is not a term-of-art phrase it requires no definition, and hence the lack of discussion during adoption regarding what the non-existent term-of-art meant. One does not need to discuss words which everyone understands.

There is simply no basis to assert that Vattel "defined" "Les naturels" in any way whatsoever. Those words had common meaning not "defined" meaning, and simply meant the natural inhabitants. They, (the natives, or "les indigenes") are the natural members of a country as well as the natural citizens of the nation that is composed of the country and its government & laws. Their natural membership flows from parentage and blood inheritance.

Vattel asserted repeatedly that natural membership and national citizenship were the natural inheritance from one's father.

He was quite clear about that in his writings, but he never once asserted that one must be both a natural citizen and a native-born citizen in order to be a native.
You won't touch that fact with a ten-foot pole.
Nor the fact that the United States government (like all governments) recognizes all children of its citizens as natives regardless of where in the world they are born.
[Any government that does not is stuck in an antiquated, medieval monarchical system not based on natural individual rights.]

I showed you that fact in writing as found in the 1960 Census, yet you continue to pretend that there are no cracks in your theory and it is perfectly flawless.

I will further expose its flaws in my next exposition which will examine all three theories. Now I need to proof-read it further and prepare it for release tomorrow.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

The problem with your argument is that while Vattel (the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ favorite writer on natural law and the law of nations), early Congress (which included many Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers), the U.S. Supreme Court (the ultimate judicial authority on the meaning of the Constitution), and others (who expressed their opinion sufficiently close to the time of the making of the Constitution) defined a “natural born citizen” and applied that definition to mean a child born in a country to parents who were both citizens at the time of the child’s birth, no one has defined the clause and applied it as you do to mean simply a child born to a citizen father, regardless of the citizenship of the mother and the child’s place of birth.

You are, of course, free to express your personal opinion regarding what in your vision of the world you deem the definition of a “natural born citizen” to be. But your personal opinion is just that and no more, unless you can produce historical and legal sources and reason to support your position. Your writings are filled with your personal opinion, but they are wanting in sources and reason that support your conclusions.

Again, based on the historical and legal record and reason which I have produced, a “natural born citizen” is under American national common law a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. These factors or elements are both necessary and sufficient to make a “natural born citizen.” These factors are not simply illustrative and not required; hence, they are necessary. These factors are also exhaustive, meaning that no more needs to be proven; hence, they are sufficient. Since they are necessary, any child missing one or both of these factors (not born in the country and/or not born to two citizen parents) is not and cannot be a “natural born citizen.” Such a child can be a Fourteenth Amendment or Congressional Act “citizen at birth,” whom the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress call “citizen of the United States” at birth, if he or she satisfies the requirements of those laws (born in the United States and “subject to its jurisdiction, or born out of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents, respectively), but not a “natural born citizen.” Since these factors are sufficient, any child who demonstrates that he or she satisfies those factors is, not only a "citizen at birth,” but also a “natural born citizen. “

Stranger said...

A Nash asks: Mario, are you suffering from Alzheimer's? I told you explicitly, directly, clearly just a couple posts back that no one is a natural born citizen who is not born of an American mother. What's wrong with your short-term memory?

As usual you avoid the fact that Vattel's writings have no connection to the words "natural born citizen". In fact the only thing connected to them is natural born subject. You stating from Mount Olympus that they did is pure unfounded imagination.
I understand your certainly regarding the wide adoption of Vattel's definition of nbc. It makes perfect sense, or it would if only he had actually deliberately "defined" "Les citoyens naturels" as being persons born in their parents' homeland, but since he did not do that, nor characterize his observation as a definition (i.e. "The definition of les citoyens naturel is the following;...") the root basis of your theory is without any ground to stand on.

He wasn't in the defining business but in the observing and describing business. And so your theory's problem isn't in its logic but in its premise, -the premise on which the whole thing is based.

It only has one leg to stand on (naturels) when it needs at least three.

The flaws in your premise are these:
1. De Citoyens et Naturels means:
Of Citizens & Natives (not Of Citizens & Natural-born-Citizens

2. "Les Naturels" means native inhabitants and thus is not a synonym for "citizen" (and "born" also is completely missing).

3. He used the phrase "The natives or indigenous population" to describe the inhabitants of nations and the countries they occupy. Nothing more.

4. He did not "define" citizens, born citizens, nor natural born citizens.

5. He "defined" the source of natural membership in a nation as being one's father's nationality (like father, like son).

6. With it being the sole source of natural inherited national membership, the location of the birth transition was rendered irrelevant from the standpoint of natural law.

7. Vattel NEVER offered, suggested, nor endorsed your unnatural hybrid concept that natives are only those whose birth met the criteria of jus soli AND jus sanguinis.

If such a concept was legitimate, historical, and enshrined as law there would be a record of it, and yet there is none. No nation in history had a legal requirement that those it recognized as natural natives must be born on national soil.

Its equivalent would be if a nation like China had a law that defined natural born Chinese citizens as only those born in China of ethnic Chinese parents.
Such a combination of criteria (blood and borders) is unnatural and non-existent in every civilized society on Earth.

Plus, natural born citizen should not be in quotes unless quoting the Constitution directly, unless it is a term of art, which it isn't.

Carlyle said...

Stranger:

Methinks you are hoist on your own petard. If the definition of NBC is so vague as you prefer, there is essentially no point of including it in the constitution.

CLEARLY - the Framers thought the term (call it a phrase, or a term of art, no matter) NBC meant something very specific.

CLEARLY - the Framers meant to exclude candidates of potential split loyalty.

While we may not know EXACTLY what the term meant to them, it is all for certain that it meant something strong and exclusionary. Therefore, the only logical explanation is for it to mean something as exclusionary and protective as the term can reasonably mean.

Surely it is important to parse the words and to look for legal precedent. But it is surely equally important to put yourself in the mindset of the Framers and think about what they were trying to prevent and how then went about it.

Given the further fact that they did not bother to define or elaborate, the term NBC must have seemed unambiguous to them.

All this leads you to only one conclusion.

Now, of course, we can claim we are living in modern global times and that such exclusions against the presidency should no longer be in effect. That is a debate that could be had, and a potential amendment undertaken. But it is worse than disingenuous to twist the concept to one's own political agenda.

The only true test would be to divest oneself of political agendas - step back to another time when the issue did not have any immediate political implications - and only then ask, what does it mean? Again, the answer is clear.

Stranger said...

"If the definition of NBC is so vague as you prefer,.."

A. Nash replies:

There is no "if". The definition is NOT vague. It is crystal clear. Natural citizenship is the inescapable result of being born to parents who are citizens.

"the term (call it a phrase, or a term of art, no matter)"

No, it is a huge matter since Mario's entire theory is founded on the false assumption that it IS a term of art and the words don't mean what they mean but instead what the term of art means. But they are NOT a term of art.
They are simple common words which together mean one born of citizens.
They are born as natural citizens by nature and not by the fiction of law known as the doctrine of citizenship equality.

"the Framers meant to exclude candidates of potential split loyalty."
National loyalty is instilled by loyal parents, not by the location where one happened to have been separated from their mother's womb.

"While we may not know EXACTLY what the term meant to them..." I can't join you in that uncertainty because there is no ambiguity about the principle of natural membership.

"it is all for certain that it meant something strong and exclusionary." It means what the words mean and what they mean covers about 97% of the population who are born of Americans and not of foreign or mixed parentage.

To graft the concept of native-birth onto the principle of natural blood inheritance is to create a monster that exists no where on Earth. That is why it only flies if it is a term of art since native-birth is unrelated to natural citizenship.

Check again what I shared from the 1960 Census.
ALL children of Americans are considered NATIVES regardless of where on Earth they are born (because of American parentage). No logic can thwart that fact.

All of the founders with a few exceptions (Alexander Hamilton) were natural born citizens as natives of their home colony-nation-state.
Sons born abroad of American Ambassadors and Citizens were also NBCs as proclaimed by the 1790 Naturalization Act, and eligible to be President like their native-born brothers. Congress declared that fact because it was missing from the Constitution.

see: Why baby Obama was Born in Vancouver (at obama--nation.com)

Carlyle said...

Stranger -

I have no problem with emphasis on parent(s!) having an extremely strong role in determining NBC. But why would you exclude location of birth. Since time immemorial location has also been a strong component. BirthPLACE is a common and strong indicator.

In fact, it is so strong that most moderns seem to think it is perhaps the only significant attribute. Of course they may be wrong, but any definition of NBC that does not at least include location seems DOA.

I think the major contribution of Mario is not so much the blood and dirt completeness but in raising awareness that dirt is not enough. It also takes parentage.

You two seem headed in the same direction - so why you continue to pound on him is a puzzlement.

Further, as I have stressed before, the Framers meant to be exclusive. It is hard to envision that PLACE was not important to them.

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:
You fail to grasp that throughout history and throughout the world there are only two basis for citizenship. It is either jus soli or it is jus sanguinis. There is no such system as a combination of the two. There never was and never will be because one applies to natives and blood, and the other applies to aliens and borders.
No nation has ever adopted a hybrid synthesis of the two in regard to individuals.
Today I wrote in a new exposition "Native-Born Aliens & the Wong Perversion" which I'll post in a day or two: "The policy of the United States had been since the beginning that aliens give birth to aliens, and Americans give birth to Americans. Aliens did not give birth to Americans and Americans did not give birth to aliens."

Mario's perversion of that truth has Americans giving birth to aliens. He must maintain that fantasy in order to support the dogma that nbc is a term of art meaning that native-birth & borders must be married to natural membership via blood.

That doctrine declares non-native-born Americans to be aliens, which is an egregious violation of Natural Law.
Again, quoting today's writing: "From the viewpoint of law & logic, all children born within a man’s estate or home who are fully and naturally subject to him can be assumed to be his natural children, while those not born subject to him can be assumed to be children of visitors, guests or tenants, but the Supreme Court took that logic and rewrote it to state that all children born within the estate to its adult residents, including tenants, were subject to his authority and were thus also his children, -making such children adopted children and thus no longer unrelated alien children. The estate owner / father was now their father was well, albeit not their natural father.
The Law of the Estate is that only natural sons have the birth right to inherit the position of head of the estate. Thus, adopted children are not in line for consideration, just as native-born children of aliens are not in line to be President

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

I of II

I have repeatedly told you that you present a view of a “natural born citizen” that is based on purely your personal opinion of what the world is and should be. At first, you argued that any child who was born to a U.S. citizen father, regardless of the citizenship of the mother and the child’s place of birth, was a “natural born citizen.” Now you argue that any child who is born to a U.S. citizen father and U.S. citizen mother, regardless of the child’s place of birth, is a “natural born citizen.” You do not present or discuss any historical or legal sources that support what you say. Hence, what you say holds very little weight. On the contrary, what you say can be easily demonstrated to be wrong given how the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court said in Minor v. Happersett (1875), which was also confirmed in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Both of those Courts said that a “natural-born citizen” was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Clearly, both Courts said that place of birth was a necessary factor for one being a “natural-born citizen.”

Additionally, your either/or argument (either place of birth or citizen parents) that no nation of the world has adopted a rule which requires both jus soli (right by the soil) and jus sanguinis (right by the blood) as both being required to make a citizen applies only to the various means by which one can become a “citizen of the United States” at birth. It does not apply to the one and only means by which one can become a “natural born citizen.” Allow me to explain again to you.

The United States is not like other nations. Under our Constitution, we have “natural born citizens” and “citizens of the United States.” Under the Constitution, the President must be an Article II “natural born citizen.” Being a “citizen” is not sufficient. This means that being a Fourteenth Amendment or statutory “citizen of the United States” is not sufficient. Given the unique singular and all-powerful civil and military offices represented by the office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers saw those offices to be occupied in the future (after the Founding generation had passed away) by a person who would have unwavering allegiance and faith solely to the United States from the moment of birth. They therefore provided for the future a “strong check” (John Jay) on foreign and monarchical influence making its way into those offices.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Hence, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers saw a “natural born citizen” as having a more stringent allegiance standard than did a “citizen of the United States.” To make that allegiance standard as high as they could and to provide that “strong check” on foreign and monarchical influence, they tied the inheritance of that allegiance to the natural act of father and mother giving birth to their child on the soil of the nation of which they were both member citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Being so born (unifying jus sanguinis and jus soli), the child was born with allegiance and faith only to the United States, meaning that no foreign nation could lay legitimate claim under the law of nations to that child’s allegiance. Indeed, such natural birth circumstances produce in the child at the moment of birth unity of citizenship and allegiance to the United States.

Your either/or argument (either place of birth or citizen parents) does not apply to the one and only means by which one can become a “natural born citizen,” which the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority in Wong Kim Ark confirmed to be by being born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

So, until you can present both historical and legal evidence that supports your position that place of birth is not a necessary factor in the definition of a “natural born citizen,” I cannot agree with you and must still insist that being born in the country to parents who were both citizens at the time of the child’s birth are both necessary and sufficient conditions to be met for one to be an Article II “natural born citizen.”

Unknown said...

the Framers definition is the only one that matters and that can be found in minor or vattel. bill o reilly said a foreign born person is eligible and so is the child of a foreigner. It does not take much to be a NBC nowadays. A dual citizen is not mentioned as being eligible in A2 (which the child of a citizen and alien would be) but i am just splitting hairs. Instead of amending A2 lets just ignore it and insist 1 plus 1 equals 3 and call birthers ridiculous and delusional for calling obots out for their outright lies and nonsense.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

leo,

What is funny is that Bill O'Reilly with great confidence said that he "researched it this morning" to conclude that Ted Cruz, born out of the United States to a U.S. citizen mother and Cuban father is a "natural born citizen." Before his recent heavy research, again with great confidence, he said he did not think that, having been born out of the United States, he was a "natural born citizen." Mr. O'Reilly is sure one fast and absorbing reader.

What is interesting in the initial exchange on Fox is that O'Reilly said that "under law you have to be born in the America to be President." Juan Williams agreed. Mary Katherine Ham, rather than using the brain and reason that God was so generous to gift to her, played the "birther" card. She even said that she did not want to take a position on the eligibility issue as it pertains to Obama that "would get me in trouble."

This kind of stuff just goes to show you how much credibility these "news" people have and how much reliance we can place upon them. With these types of stunts, one wonders how well-supported their books are. Buyer beware!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

An Article II "natural born citizen" is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause. It is an expression of constitutional legal significance. The significance that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers gave to the clause, unless rejected or modified by subsequent constitutional amendment or U.S. Supreme Court decision, is that which should control today. What should not control is special-interest-motivated personal opinion as to what that meaning should or is wished to be.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Certain professors, politicians , and media keep telling us that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen.” They rely, not on how the Constitution has been and can be interpreted to define a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth (Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)), but rather on how Congress, an institution that under the Constitution only has naturalization powers, defines a “citizen of the United States” in one of its naturalization acts which made Ted Cruz a “citizen of the United States” at birth (a born citizen) when he was born in 1970 in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and non-U.S. citizen father. Surely, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers knew nothing of Congress’s 20th Century naturalization acts when they passed and ratified the Constitution. In fact, the Constitution was passed in 1787 and ratified in 1789. Congress did not come into existence until after it was ratified and did not pass the first naturalization act until 1790. It defies logic and common sense to argue that a law of Congress passed in the 20th Century would control the original meaning of a “natural born citizen” upon which the Framers relied in 1787.

So what do these individuals do to hide such a nonsensical position? They tell us, merely by way of sound bite and because it has a superficial appeal, that any person who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.” Of course, they do not tell us that they are relying on that 20th Century Act of Congress for that born citizen status. They also fail to address the pesky fact that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”

Again, the historical and legal record demonstrates that the original meaning of a “natural born citizen” is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Being born in Canada to a non-U.S. citizen father, Ted Cruz was not born in the country (the United States or its jurisdictional equivalent). Nor was he born to citizen parents (U.S. citizen father and U.S. citizen mother). He is therefore not and cannot be a “natural born citizen.”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

We will often hear from Obama/Cruz eligibility supporters that nowhere will we find in the four corners of the Constitution a “natural born citizen” defined as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. But given that the clause was inserted into the Constitution as a “strong check” (John Jay to George Washington) on foreign and monarchical influence makings its way into the Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military, giving the clause any other meaning can only subvert the policy goals of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers. Allowing persons who are claimed to be “natural born citizens” of more than one nation does not serve those policy goals or reason for the clause. Such persons would be any person who at the same time is born a citizen of the United States and of one or more other nation. Therefore, any definition of a “natural born citizen” which would allow a person either not born in the United States or not born to U.S. citizen parents must be rejected.

Stranger said...

eMario wrote:
"An Article II "natural born citizen" is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause. "

Nash writes:

Article 1. Sec. 2, "The People of the several States" is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause which means the native peoples and not the descendents of foreign English settlers.

That is clear to me because I wish it to be so, and therefore I proclaim it to the world unbacked by any historical documentation whatsoever because I know I can't supply any since none exists.

So, those who would be my faithful followers must simply take it as an article of questioned faith, relying on my august reputation for validation which I'm unable to supply.

They are supported by the reasoning that it is only fair that it be so since they were here first.

I asked Mario for proof of his term of art claim and all we've heard is crickets.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

You have some nerve asking me for "historical documentation" and "proof" of my position when you go about the internet just writing whatever strikes your imagination without providing any historical, legal, or other source for what you say.

Nevertheless, I have provided my historical and legal evidence on the meaning of a “natural born citizen” since when I first started to write on the subject in late 2008. I do not know where you have been and I surely do not intend to repeat myself here for you. Suffice it to say that the “natural born citizen” clause has three types of meanings. First, it is a word of art with a technical meaning. John Jay used the exact clause “natural born citizen” in his letter of 1787 to George Washington. He did not define the clause in his letter. George Washington wrote back to Jay, thanking him for the suggestion and did not ask Jay what the meaning of the clause was. Nor was there any debate of which we know on the meaning of a “natural born citizen” in the “secret” Constitutional Convention. There also was no debate in the open state ratifying conventions. The First Congress used the “natural born citizen” clause in the Naturalization Act of 1790. It did not discuss the meaning of the clause. The anonymous English translator of the 1797 English edition of The Law of Nations also used the exact clause, “natural-born citizen,” in Section 212 and even credited the clause and its meaning to Emer de Vattel. The clause was used by Congressman Bingham during the debates on the Civil Rights Act of 1866 with no debate in Congress as to the meaning that Bingham gave to it. He said it meant “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866)). Hence, the clause had a well-known meaning among those skilled in the art of law and the law of nations such as jurists, lawyers, and the writers on the law of nations. That makes the clause a word of art.

Second, the clause also had an ordinary meaning. Since there was no debate in the state’s ratifying conventions, the clause also had an ordinary meaning among the people.

Third, the clause also has a fixed meaning in law. The clause was incorporated into American national common law and so confirmed in decisions of the United States Supreme Court such as Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Hence, the clause also has a fixed meaning in constitutional law.

All this demonstrates that the meaning of a “natural born citizen,” whichever one you prefer to use, is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Stranger said...

A CITIZEN: A member of a nation.

A NATURAL CITIZEN: A member of a nation by natural descent, by blood inheritance.

A BORN CITIZENS: A member of a nation from birth or by birth; by the 14th Amendment and one or two alien parents, -or a natural citizen, -all of whom are conceived with citizenship as their automatic destiny.

A BORN NATURAL CITIZEN: A redundant phrase were it not for the fiction of law (the doctrine of citizenship equality) which converts all natural-ized foreign citizens into natural American citizens. They are considered natural citizens but are so by legal fiction and not by birth.

A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN: same thing.

None of those terms are "terms of art". The only term of art is the phrase "term of art". These also are not terms of art:

LES NATURALS ou LES INDIGENES: The natural inhabitants or indigenous population.

LES CITOYENS NATURELS: The natural members or citizens of a nation.

THE THREE BLIND MICE: "BLIND MICE" alone is not a term of art, but add "three" and it instantly and magically becomes one. With the three-word term being a term of art, clearly the use of the word "three" implies something other than what the word means, such as "three or more", or "at least three".

A WISE OLD MAN: "Old man" alone is not a term of art, but add "Wise" and it becomes one. "Man" is understood to exclude women, and "old" is understood to excluded the young, but "Wise" is different. Since the phrase is now a term of art we can define it as implying and requiring that wisdom also includes experience and education rather that mere common practical horse sense with which one can teach important lessons of life.

The key is this: if only one or two words is involved, we must'n assert that a phrase is a term of art, but add a third descriptor and that makes it a prime target for redefinition.

That's The TERM OF ART rule according to the prophet of Blood & Borders who declares American children to be aliens if foreign soil taints the ground on which their mother delivers them from the womb.
Sure,...there's no conceptual problem with that. After all, "natural" no longer means natural because now, as a term of art, "natural born citizen" actually means "natural native-born citizen".

Incompetent me, I just can't seem to locate where the framers wrote that down. (I know Vattel never did.) Anyone else have a clue?

A. Nash

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

You little poetic display adds nothing to the weight of your unsubstantiated position.

Stranger said...

"Nevertheless, I have provided my historical and legal evidence on the meaning of a “natural born citizen”.

A Nash replies: I didn't ask you to give your definition again for the thousandth time. I asked you to give documentation that the fundamental premise of your thinking is valid, and that premise is that the three words constitute a term of art.

You cannot in a thousand years give any evidence for what you accept as a given because none exists since the phrase is NOT a term of art.
"Presumptuous dogmatic dreamer". Is that a term of art? No one is known to have discussed or contested its meaning, and therefore it must be a term of art.

How on earth could you write these words: " Hence, the clause had a well-known meaning...That makes the clause a word of art."

If one were to call me "a pompous old windbag", would that be a term of art in need of a definition? If not, why not? If lawyers understand its plain language meaning, does that make it a term of art as you inanely argue?

Understand this: its common language meaning is its only meaning because the words only mean what they mean, not what you proclaim that they mean.
You, the obamunist, and the Maskellites all agree on one foolish thing, and that is the those three common words are a term of art. Without that characterization, all of your imaginary theories instantly evaporate.

Only the meaning conveying a natural law form of natural membership is free from human machinations and arbitrary assignment of distorted and erroneous meanings.

Unknown said...

Bill o and his heavy research haha. I will hold my breath until Fox or any major news mentions minor v happersett. 9 supreme court justices in 1875 all agreed on what a native or NBC ( 9 agreeing on anything is rare) is so i would say that is a slam dunk, esp after a little investigating. If children of americans born outside of the US were temporarily considered as NBCs in NA 1790 then i wonder what children of americans born in the US were considered by the Founders? Maybe stranger can answer that without his typical gibberish

Unknown said...

Bill o and his heavy research haha. I will hold my breath until Fox or any major news mentions minor v happersett. 9 supreme court justices in 1875 all agreed on what a native or NBC ( 9 agreeing on anything is rare) is so i would say that is a slam dunk, esp after a little investigating. If children of americans born outside of the US were temporarily considered as NBCs in NA 1790 then i wonder what children of americans born in the US were considered by the Founders? Maybe stranger can answer that without his typical gibberish. Seriously though, it is quite worrisome that our controlled major media will not mention vattel/minor or have someone like mario on to explain the history and evidence of what a article 2 natural born citizen really is. Barrys fake BC image has been ignored too.

bdwilcox said...

Leo Derosia,

In reference to the obot parentage requirements for NBC, lease look at the second to last Obot merit badge here.

Obots: they are a discerning and insightfule bunch, aren't they? Heh.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

bdwilcox,

Simply fantastic! Yes, indeed, the Obots merit all those merit badges and more. Theirs is a NBC tale of denial, artifice, invention, twisting, distortion, manipulation, contrivance, and deceit.

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:
The badges are an accurate revelation of the deliberate and wicked dishonesty of the obamunists. A person who is crooked in so many ways is likely inherently crooked in all ways that affect and threaten his realm and security.

I made a mistake in my recent exposition "Why baby Obama Was Born in Vancouver" by referencing and explaining three theories that explain "natural born citizen", but I overlooked the fourth put forth by Jack Maskell. So here they are all together.
A natural born citizen is one whose citizenship is:
1. Natural citizenship
2. Legal citizenship via "common law" (14th Amendment jus soli)
3. Both natural and legal citizenship combined
4. Either natural citizenship OR legal citizenship.

The last three theories are all grounded on the false assumption that the words nbc are a term of art, but each with a different interpretation of what its definition is.
They are all false because the words and concept describing being born a natural citizen are not a term of art, and cannot be shown to mean anything other than what their common language meanings convey.

Those three theories all begin with the term of art foundation, and then construct their false houses upon it.
The purveyors of each theory see the flaws in the others but not the flaws in their own. A case of bias blindness.
But natural citizenship does not depend on a theory, nor a term of art definition since it is grounded on the natural principle of natural membership by which one is a replica of their parents.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Obots and Cruz supporters argue that a child born out of the United States to “citizen” parents is a “natural born citizen.” They point to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for their source. What is interesting about this position is that these supporters implicitly concede that Congress has the power exercised through a naturalization act to make one a “natural born citizen.” But Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1795 took away the “natural born citizen” status and replaced it with “citizen of the United States” status, which under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 is not sufficient to be President. So, if these supporters concede that Congress can make “natural born citizens,” it at the same time cannot deny that Congress would have the power to take that status away. What is devastating for both Obama (if not born in the United States) and Cruz (who admits not being born in the United States) is that Congress never again bestowed upon any person born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents the status of “natural born citizen.” So it definitely looks like the Obama and Cruz supporters have been hoisted with their own petard.

These supporters also argue that any child who is a citizen at birth is a “natural born citizen.” In this argument, they have actually re-defined a “natural born citizen.” This is a real easy way for these supporters to arrive at their desired result, i.e., that Obama and Cruz are “natural born citizens.” All they have to do is find any law that makes Obama and Cruz citizens at birth and they are home free. We know that both the Fourteenth Amendment (only if born in the United States and hence no help for Cruz) and Acts of Congress (regardless of place of birth and hence helpful for Cruz) make qualifying persons citizens at birth. Even though these laws do not make anyone by their express text a “natural born citizen,” that does not stop these supporters. After all, they have changed the definition of a “natural born citizen” to be any person who is a citizen at birth. Hence, it does not matter what these laws call the person that the laws make “citizens.” Under the supporters’ position, all that matters is that these laws make these persons citizens at birth which is the magic word for them to be declared “natural born citizens.” The Constitution’s text and the historical and legal record demonstrate this argument to be erroneous. As I have argued, Article II says “natural born citizen,” not born citizen. Also, there is no U.S. Supreme Court decision that ever defined all citizens at birth as “natural born citizen.” Finally, it is not reasonable to think that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers would have given Congress the power to make “natural born citizens” at it pleased though statutes and without doing so through a constitutional amendment.

The only reason that these supports maintain that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” is that if Obama were born out of the United States to a U.S. citizen mother, like Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother, he would like Cruz be a “natural born citizen.” This argument is not legally correct because Obama’s mother was not old enough to transmit her U.S. citizenship to him, which is not the case for Cruz. Nevertheless, the argument has superficial appeal for the Obots. Also, Minor v. Happersett (1875) said that children born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” were not only “citizens” like their parents, but also “natural-born citizens.” Hence, the Obots will never concede that someone who is a “citizen” at birth is not a “natural born citizen,” because to do so brings them too close to having to explain how that could be and how Obama, a possible “citizen” at birth (if he was born in Hawaii), is also a “natural born citizen.” As far as the Obots are concerned, the more the merrier.

Unknown said...

Cruzs father was a alien so he would not have been a US citizen of any kind in NA 1790. Obama would not have been a citizen either with a foreign father in 1790 and the best he couldve been in 1961 was a dual citizen and duals are not mentioned in a2 as being eligible. These shady, spineless state judges can twist and BS all they want but a2 clearly says no person except a NBC is eligible now which makes barry a fraud being a dual citizen at birth. A2 is not difficult to understand, esp after a little bit of research.

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:

Doing some research I came across this from Wikipedia:

The Citizenship Clause (also known as the Naturalization Clause ) refers to the first sentence of Section 1 in the Fourteenth Amendment...[http://lib.law.washington.edu/ref/consticlauses.html]
Wow! No obamunist every admitted the clause had that as a descriptive label. Their dogmatic doctrine is as Mario stated, that there is no differentiation between born citizens with American parents and those with alien parents.

But aliens cannot produce something natural which they themselves are not. They can only produce that which they are. Any other designation given to their child is a legal designation, not a natural inherited political nature. Native-born legal citizens can't serve as President since their citizenship is via automatic naturalization.

I also came across my unfinished exposition "The DaVinci Code of American Citizenship which looks at the impact of Afroyim v Rusk and Schneider v. Rusk which led to the abolishment of four generations of Congressional statutes and international treaties (the Bancroft treaties) involving powers that Congress had no constitutional right to exercise regarding U.S. citizenship.
It might be ready during this weekend.
~~~
Four explanations for nbc:

1. No person except a native-born citizen...
2. No person except a natural born citizen...
3. No person except a native-born natural citizen...
4. No person except a native-born ORa natural citizen...

Only one can be right. Words mean what they mean and that tells us what they mean together. Only #2 admits to that rule.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The Washington Times is reporting that there are rumors that Arnold Schwarzenegger has been quietly lobbying lawmakers to amend the Constitution so that he can run for President in 2016. Schwarzenegger was born in Austria to two non-U.S. citizen parents and became a “citizen of the United States” in 1983.

The article says: “The loophole language could be the definition of ‘natural born citizen,’ legal minds have argued. Columbia University Law School professor Michael Dorf said, The Post reported: ‘The law is very clear, but it’s not 100 percent clear that the courts would enforce that law rather than leave it to the political process.’” Read more:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/18/arnold-schwarzenegger-lobbies-law-change-seek-pres/#ixzz2i5H9MHEZ .

This is a very disturbing statement and approach to respecting the Constitution. Professor Dorf is implying that Schwarzenegger should take the same approach as Ted Cruz has taken, which is to proclaim that he is a “citizen” and not worry about what the Constitution requires, leaving it up to the people when they vote.

Just what is wrong with this type of attitude toward the Constitution? The judges of our court, among all other public officials, take an oath “to support this Constitution.” Article VI. The President and Commander in Chief of the Military, before executive and military power of those offices can vest in him or her must take an oath to “preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.” Article II, Section 2. If “the law is very clear,” if that law is the supreme law of the land, and if judges of the federal government and every state are bound thereby, then how could the courts not enforce the law and the president-elect take such an oath when his occupying that office is a violation of the Constitution he is swearing to preserve, protect, and defend?

As we can see, the Constitution is being made a mockery by those who are supposed to support, preserve, protect, and defend it, all in the name of the “political process.”

Anonymous said...

Mr. Apuzzo,

Vermont Supreme Court says the election is over - get over it and get on with your lives.

http://info.libraries.vermont.gov/supct/current/op2012-439.html#_ftnref1

Unknown said...

Congratulations on winning Paige v. Vermont, et al. according to your definition of winning; in other words, the court ruled against you but your logic was far, far, far superior to anything the court wrote, so you won in your mind anyway. LOL!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

4zoltan,

The Vermont Supreme Court, not reaching the merits of the argument that Barack Obama is not an Article II “natural born citizen,” has dismissed the case of Brooke Paige v. Barack Obama based on mootness.

We know that the election is over. We also know that based on the current state of the Constitution, Obama cannot run for President again in 2016.

The Vermont Supreme Court has now ruled the question of whether Obama is a “natural born citizen” is moot because the election is over and he cannot run for President again.

So while the Vermont Supreme Court has decided to dismiss the case based on mootness because the election is over and Obama cannot run for President again, what the Supreme Court did not decide is whether Obama is a “natural born citizen.”

Stranger said...

Most people's thinking is all screwed up, with Bill O'Reilly as a good example; first he believes that native-birth is the determinant of eligibility, then he "learns" that "birth" is, next he'll learn that it is either the one or the other a la Jack Maskell's bs, or he might swallow the Vattelian dogma that both are required.
There's no clarity because of the absence of awareness of the principle of natural membership which is the mechanism of natural citizenship.
A. Nash

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Fogbow Foggy,

I see that since you were last here you still have not been able to learn how to read.

bdwilcox said...

Mario,

Let me paraphrase Flogblow and 2zoltar's argument:

"Dredd Scott, you lost, now get over it and move on with your life. The court ruled you're Sanford's property, so quit being an uppity negro, go home and rub your massa's feet."

Witch said...

This just in, yet another court, this time the Supreme Court of Vermont, disagrees with Mario Apuzzo.

Bookies taking bets as to whether Apuzzo will finally admit he's wrong, after five years of complete and utter failure.

Smart money is on "No"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Witch,

The Vermont Supreme Court said in its Paige v. Obama opinion:

“Plaintiff defined ‘natural born Citizen’ according to treatises and other writings preceding and contemporaneous to the Constitution’s founding, as a person born to two parents who were its citizens of the United States at the time of the person’s birth.”

Paige v. State of Vermont, James Condos, Secretary of State and Barack Obama (2012-439), 2013 VT 105, at p. 2.

It surely does not sound like the Court fell for the Obot mantra that my “natural born citizen” position is “crank conspiracy nonsense.” No, it said that the definition of a “natural born citizen” provided to the Court came from “treatises and other writings preceding and contemporaneous to the Constitution’s founding.” May I ask from where does your definition come? Now please, do not keep me waiting too long for your sources.

The Court dismissed the case because it said that it was moot (saying Obama cannot run again for President) and therefore it has no constitutional jurisdiction, and not because it disagreed with my “natural born citizen” argument.

So Witch, if you are going to comment here, you better be prepared to back up what you say. Maybe Reality Check can help you out a bit.

Unknown said...

I do not see why the usurper cannot run for president again, article 2 is already being ignored so why not the 2 term limit? Let cruz and arnold be on ballot as well, at least they are citizens which is more than we can say about barry and his fudged BC image. So this is all moot to vermont judges and we can hardly be bothered with a illegal president and blatant violation of article 2 so we will be cowards and jellyfish. The Founders were all dead men if revolution failed and yet not one judge or congressman will speak out about his 2 forgerys, fake social and a2 ineligibility. The last speeding ticket i recd is obviously moot because it already happened so there is no need to pay the fine, i am sure that argument would fly before a judge. I would respect them more if they just came out said we know barry is a fraud but we will not do a thing about it instead of insulting us like this.

Ray said...

The Vermont Supreme Court's claim that a determination of Obama's eligibility is moot, is unreasonable.

Article II commands that an ineligible person shall not be President. Article II does not distinguish between ineligibility prior to an election or after, a person failing to meet the requirements is at all times legally disqualified. Article II does not state "eligible to election", rather it states clearly and unambiguously "eligible to the office".

Eligibility is not a political question, it is a legal question. A Judicial determination of eligibility is proper, indeed it is solely for the Judiciary to determine. There is no role for the Legislature. To allow an ineligible person to remain in Office on the premise that the Legislature has not impeached would obstruct the purpose of Article II. For the Judiciary to refuse the question negates Article II and renders it meaningless.

Article II directs that an ineligible person shall not be President. Eligibility is a legal question resolved judicially. The question is most certainly NOT moot.

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:

I couldn't agree more with Leo and Ray's points, (well put) but have a quibble with the view that Congress has no role in determining eligibility.

The 20th Amendment is clear that a President and VP who have not "qualified" are to be replaced but does not say who shall determine if they have qualified.

It could be Congress or the Electoral College, or both, but it can't be neither since elections are political events which need to abide by the law.
The amendment adds "Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President nor a Vice-President shall have qualified, declaring who then shall act as President, and the manner by which one who is to act shall be selected,"

So, if Congress fails to legislate, fails to adjudicate, and the Electoral College fails to investigate, then the only avenues left for the law-abiding public's redress of grievance is the courts or revolution.

The former has failed due to partisanship and cowardice (or serious threats and/or bribes) and the latter isn't in the cards, so we are facing a brick wall through which there is no door since even the media is totally compromised and complicit in the crime of the century.

But the issue won't go away thanks to Rubio and Cruz, and Haley, and Jindhal. Arnold isn't a factor in any serious way since he is clearly and unambiguously ineligible.

PS. Doesn't it tick you off that Wayne Root mouths-off big-time about how confident he is that Obama was native-born and is a U.S. citizen when neither is true and there is no evidence whatsoever to support such a childish certainty?

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:

It's most unfortunate that courage is not a requirement for being a judge. We do not live in an age of brave men and so mediocre and spineless men rise to positions of authority in government and jurisprudence.
They lack the fortitude to make jarring rulings, rulings that slam on brakes and raise hackles to the heavens, rulings that are like a dozen cat's claws on blackboards to the statists who can't stand having their unconstitutional rule challenged.

"Let justice be done though the sky fall."

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:
One final exposition: Of Truth & Fiction; Power & Treason ~ What You Damn Well Better Know For Certain
http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2013/10/19/of-truth-fiction-power-treason/

The wording of the presidential eligibility clause could have been done differently, but no change would have resulted in the exact same meaning because different words have different meanings or they are ambiguous. It could have been written as:
“No citizen except a native-born citizen shall be eligible…”
Or, “No citizen except a citizen by place-of-birth shall be eligible…
Or, “No citizen except a native-born natural citizen shall be eligible…”
Or, No citizen except a native-born citizen OR a natural born citizen shall be eligible…”
Or, “Naturalized citizens shall not be eligible to the office of President...”

There are three other ways it could have been worded and yet still mean the same thing as the wording of the Constitution, and they are:
“No citizen except a born natural citizen shall be eligible…” Or,
“No citizen except a citizen by patrilineal descent shall be eligible… Or,
“No citizen except a citizen by right of blood shall be eligible to the office of the President.

Barack Obama is not such a citizen, -he was born not being such a citizen and can never become one.

Stranger said...

Hierarchy of American Citizenship when the Constitution was written:

1. a natural born citizen via natural citizen parents (born a citizen by parentage )

2. a foreign-born and raised natural citizen (born a citizen by natural citizen parents)

3. a native-born natural citizen born of naturalized parents. (the child is an American thanks to immigrant parents who became Americans before giving birth)

4. a foreign-born natural citizen born of naturalized parents. (the child is an American thanks to immigrant parents who became Americans before giving birth

5. a natural born citizen via matrilineal inheritance (native-born child whose father is unknown, or who died, divorced or
abandoned his mother before she gave birth. She becomes the head of the household.)

6. a natural born citizen via matrilineal inheritance (foreign-born child whose father is unknown, or who died or divorced his mother before she gave birth. She gives birth being the head of the household.)

7. a native-born natural citizen via patrilineal inheritance. (born of an immigrant wife & mother and an American father, -she having been automatically made a citizen via marriage to an American)

8. a derivative citizen, a minor who derives his or her citizenship from that of a naturalized father

9. a native-born citizen born within "holy matrimony" to an immigrant father and an American mother. (their child is a citizen in a few states, but an alien in most, -as well as in the view of the central government, -having been alien-born)

10. a native-born child of immigrants automatically naturalized at birth by the citizen-izing authority of the 14th
Amendment citizenship clause. (NOT a United States citizen in the time of the Constitution)

11. a non-native, non-natural citizen born of Puerto Rican or Guam-ian parents (~neither a citizen nor born in the United States in the era of the Constitution.)

12. a native-born child of an American mother and her foreign "non-immigrant-alien" husband. (e.g. Barack Obama; a non-citizen)

13. a native-born child of "non-immigrant aliens" not subject to Washington's political authority. (NOT a citizen per the
nationality laws of the States and the policy of the central government, as well as the later 14th Amendment)

A. Nash

Unknown said...

The Supreme Court of the U.S. has a big neon sign on the roof that says:

“NO, WE’RE NOT GOING TO DECIDE YOUR SILLY BIRFER CASES”.

New Jersey isn't that far away, Mario. Perhaps you should drive down to D.C. and see for yourself. It’s there, honest.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

The Framers in writing the Constitution believed in what we call today KISS. Simply, they used the natural law and law of nations universal and immutable definition of a "natural born citizen" which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth. As applied to the United States, this means that an American "natural born citizen" is a child born in the United States or its jurisdictional equivalent to a father and mother who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child's birth.

"In the country" means within the physical borders of the United States or its jurisdictional equivalent. Borders are a necessary element of being a "natural born citizen" because a nation is identified and asserts its sovereignty by its physical borders. Other than what it may consider to be a mere possession, the real land of a nation is contained within its physical borders and a nation exercises all its power over all things that are located on its land, requiring all those who may want to possess any of that land to subject to the laws of the nation. Finally, allegiance and citizenship are gained by being born on a nation's territory through jus soli (citizenship acquired by place of birth). Hence, no other nation may claim the allegiance and citizenship of any person born in another nation's soil from the mere act of being born on that nation's land.

Two citizen parents are also necessary elements of being a "natural born citizen." Both father and mother are the producing natural causes of the birth of a child. It is not naturally possible for one to produce a child without the other. Being both the natural cause of a child's birth, both father and mother have the duty and therefore the power to rear and educate their children. By the law of nature, that duty and power rests equally in both of them. Both of them teach their child the culture, language, and values of their nation. Finally, a child inherits allegiance and citizenship from either the father or the mother by jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited by one's parents). Hence, a nation may not claim the allegiance and citizenship of a child born to parents of a different nation from the mere act of being born to the parents of that other nation.

The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers understood and accepted this reality of nature and so they saw fit to require future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military, offices that were to wield singular and great power both civilly and militarily and therefore require the utmost allegiance and faith to the Untied States, that they be "natural born citizens."

The inescapable conclusion is that anyone who is either not born in the United States or its jurisdictional equivalent (e.g., maybe Obama and definitely Cruz) or not born to U.S. citizen parents (e.g, definitely Obama, Cruz, Rubio, Jindal, and Haley), is not and cannot be a "natural born citizen."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Fogbow Foggy,

Finally, you said something that is right. I just got back from Washington. Your are absolutely correct. The high Court does have that huge neon sign on its building. But really, having a neon sign on a building with those splendid Greco-Roman columns and architecture looks really tacky and out of place. It really cheapens the Court.

I left in the message box a suggestion that the Court put together an exploratory committee to find and hire a wise decorator who may find for them some better-suited sign, or better yet just to take the sign down. I added in my message that with such a little change, the building will once again shine the way its founders intended. We will have to see how they react to my recommendation for a better decor.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

I just visited the blog, Red State. Red State maintains in its blog that it is a conservative blog promoting conservative principles and Republican candidates. Yet, here is a commenting standing rule at the Red State web site:

"7. Promotion of certain theories and ideas contrary to site principles is not allowed. These ideas include, but are not limited to: . . . . Theories that Barack Obama is not eligible to the Presidency of the United States, or political movements based on that idea. Birthers must post their theories elsewhere."

Despite the Obama "natural born citizen" comment prohibition standing rule, there is an October 19, 2013 article published at the site by "goldwaterconservative," entitled, "Putting Ted Cruz Birtherism to Rest." It does seem a bit strange that the blog owner and moderators would allow this "natural born citizen" Ted Cruz article (surely much more than just a comment), but would not allow a mere comment discussing whether Barack Obama, surely not a conservative president, is a "natural born citizen." So, since "birthers" are banned from presenting their position on Red State, I will give here my brief objections to the writer's arguments and conclusion that Cruz is a "natural born citizen."

The writer argues that Ted Cruz is a "natural born citizen" and therefore eligible to be President. Here is the writer's reasoning:

First, the writer gives a scenario showing that it is unfair not to allow foreign-born children to be eligible to be President. The point does not need much comment, for we can talk about the fairness of many provisions in our Constitution and our citizenship laws until the cows come home.

Second, the writer tells us what the Founders', Framers', and Ratifiers' policy reasons were for their including the "natural born citizen" clause in the presidential eligibility section of the Constitution. He concedes that they had a special concern about foreign influence making its way into the office of President, citing and quoting Anti-Federalist No. 68 and Federalist No. 68. Rather than discuss what these documents said, the writer prefers to tell us what the Constitution and these papers did not say. He says that there is no mention in the Constitution or papers that someone has to be born in the United States in order to be President. Well, the writer fails to tell us that the Framers did not have to make such a statement in the Constitution or the papers because they used the word of art, "natural born citizen," which meant born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth. But even more grave is that the writer does not explain how his theory that a "natural born citizen" includes a person born under the birth circumstances with which Cruz was born (born in a foreign country to a U.S. citizen mother, but a non-U.S. citizen father) does not violate those foreign-influence concerns. This is a critical omission, for any argument about the meaning of a "natural born citizen" and who is included in the definition must include a discussion of what the Founders', Framers', and Ratifiers' policy reasons were for including the clause as part of presidential eligibility.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Third, having glossed over the policy for the "natural born citizen" clause, the writer then gives us his sources which he says prove that Cruz is a "natural born citizen." He first relies upon the First Congress's Naturalization Act of 1790 for his conclusion, saying that the act provided that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents "shall be considered as natural born citizens." But the writer forgets to tell everyone that the Third Congress in 1795, with the aid of then-Representative James Madison and President George Washington, repealed that 1790 act and replaced it with the Naturalization Act of 1795 which, with surgical precision, said that those same children "shall be considered as citizens of the United States." Now, such treatment of those foreign-born children by the Third Congress is most telling, given that Article II says that "Citizens of the United States" were eligible to be President only if born before the adoption of the Constitution and that those born thereafter had to be "natural born Citizens." So, the Third Congress, with Madison's push and Washington's approval, in effect, said that "citizens" at birth were not necessarily "natural born citizens" and that those foreign-born children were no longer eligible to be President. So even assuming without deciding that Congress could through a naturalization act make anyone a "natural born citizen" who was not, including bestowing upon that person without constitutional amendment but rather through statute the constitutional right to be eligible to be President, and that just one U.S. citizen parent was sufficient under the act when it called for citizen "parents," we must also accept that what Congress can give it can take away. What is most telling in this connection is that Congress never again bestowed upon any person born out of the United States the birth status of a "natural born citizen."

Fourth, the writer then goes on in his article to rely upon the the Nationality Act of 1940, which made a person born out of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents a "citizen of the United States" at birth. What the writer fails to tell us is that no where in this act do we find the words "natural born citizen." Rather, this act only makes persons "citizens of the United States." But we already saw that the Third Congress in 1795 decided that these children were no longer to be considered as "natural born citizens," but rather as "citizens of the United States." Since the Third Congress as early as 1795 made this specific change in the law and never used the clause "natural born citizen" again, this act simply is no basis to make Cruz a "natural born citizen."

Cruz was not born in the United States. Hence, he cannot look to the original Constitution or the Fourteenth Amendment to make him a "citizen," let alone a "natural born citizen." He must, therefore, look for a naturalization Act of Congress for his U.S. citizenship. The double problem for Cruz is that not only does the Constitution not make him a "citizen" or a "natural born citizen," but no naturalization Act of Congress, upon which he must rely for his U.S. citizenship, makes him a "natural born citizen," even if it could which it cannot. The most grace that Congress exercised in his behalf is to make him a naturalized "citizen of the United States" at birth, a status that as early as 1795 the Third Congress inserted into its naturalization act to replace the status of "natural born citizen." What the Third Congress did says it all for Cruz. Cruz is not nor can he be a "natural born citizen."

So, now we can more clearly see why Red State will not allow the Obama "natural born citizen" "birthers" to comment on its blog.

Unknown said...

It is lame to cite NA 1790 which says birth to citizens, not a birth to a citizen and a alien like cruz. If the writer thinks it is unfair then amend article 2 instead of spewing nonsense/propaganda.I would like to amend a2 to have any potential CiC pass a background check that other federal employees would have to undergo and results made public.

Carlyle said...

Leo, you hit a very key nail right on the head: background checks.

Something like "99.9%" of voters believe that presidential candidates ARE checked. In fact their strongest argument against those of us who question the very person and character of The Obama is: "With all the background checks, and media research, I'm sure that none of what you think can be true, because they would have told us".

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:

Background checks aren't in the realm of reality. The Dumbocrats don't even care that people claiming the right to healthcare subsidies be financially vetted. But even worse, even the Republicrats had no problem with an unconstitutional candidate running for and winning the presidency, nor do they even consult the Constitution for most of what they force on the American people.

If they called for and passed legislation for vetting Presidential candidates, then conservatives might call for vetting the background of Senators.

In Washington, mum is the word. See no evil, hear no evil. Don't look too close at me and I won't look too close at you. Secrecy is S.O.P., that's how pork gets inserted into bills, and how Obamacare got passed without reading it, and $600 million got "spent" to create a failed website.

On another subject, if you ask an obamunist this question: "To which animal family do mules belong? (Of which family are they natural members, -horse or donkey?)"; their answer invalidates Obama's eligibility.
Hybrid animals, like hybrid plants, cars, and citizens, do not belong to any natural group. They are the product of an unnatural alliance that violates the Natural Law of uniformity of origin.

All natural groups, including national groups, consist of sources that are the same. Citizens produce citizens, aliens produce aliens by natural law. Combining the two results in a hybrid creation that belongs to neither parent group alone.

With cars, the natural groups are gasoline-powered,or electric-powered. Combining the two does not produce a creation that naturally belongs to either of those two groups since it is a hybrid synthesis of both.

So it is with hybrid citizens, -not by natural origin but by naturalization law.
No hybrid(whose citizenship depends on law)is a natural citizen even if naturalized at birth.
Imagine this: the 14th Amendment states that citizenship is conveyed at the end of the first week of survival, or first month or year. Clearly, such alien-born children would then not be "citizens by birth", nor from/at/upon birth either.
So its naturalization isn't a matter of birth itself, but of timing, with the clock started from delivery instead of at a later point in time.
Move the point in time, and the claim that such citizens are natural born vanishes.
Yet real NBCs are predestined for citizenship from conception, and nothing can change that.

Carlyle said...

Stranger -

I agree with you that getting political candidates vetted and background checked is probably not going to happen.

But my major point is a little different. The public must be made aware that this is not happening.

In the case of The Obama, a background check would have instantly disqualified him because he has known issues that would have prevented him from obtaining even the lowest level of government clearance. But we don't need to go that far. If it were widely known that he has not been so vetted, it would not immediately disqualify him, but he would not have been elected. Without the widespread belief of "he can't be that bad or somebody would have told us", his giant bubble would have been burst.

I know many many conservatives and not just a few liberals who rely totally on that mistaken "fact". They cannot even remotely imagine that anybody could be allowed that close to grave government secrets (let alone, finger on the nuclear button) without being thoroughly backgrounded.

These people would lead the parade of those running around with their heads in their hands, screaming OMG OMG OMG.

Carlyle said...

Mario -

PLEASE don't not go so long between posts or releasing comments. I makes us very worried that you have been disappeared by the Thought Police. Seriously!

Stranger said...

Here's something I just wrote that's part of my final exposition; titled: "Transcendent, Inviolable, A Priori Citizenship" which I'm working on.

The foundation of nations is the society upon which the nation is formed. Societies exist with or without the additional structure of government & law which may be built upon them. Within that legal structure there is an allowance for people who are not natural members of the society but wish to join it and be accepted as members. They constitute less than 5% of most nations, -perhaps less than 1-2% with many nations.

They are a creation of the structure of law build upon the foundation of the society which constitutes the nation. The society itself is not a part of that structure but pre-dates it, -existing as a primal entity just like the herds and flocks seen in the rest of nature. Their membership in their group is primal also, transmitted, conveyed, inherited by birth, -by blood connection to parents who are members. As such, their membership is an element of the fundamental structure of the society and not dependent on the legal structure of government which is built upon it.

That structure only deals with the membership of those who are outsiders, aliens, foreigners. They become legal citizens but the native society itself is composed purely of natural members because their membership in the society is a natural thing.
In the legal structure (built atop the society of natural members) that membership is recognized as natural citizenship.
It is natural national membership and nothing else. It is not legal membership because the built-up legal structure does not support the foundation which it is built upon.
Legal members are a creation of the legal structure. Natural members are a creation of the natural foundation. They do not required the acquiescence of the legal structure in order to be members of the society into which they were born as members, rather, the legal structure recognizes that the 97 +/- % of the nation’s members are the foundation on which it is built and its creator. As such, they do not need the permission of their creation to be members of its foundational society nor the nation it has created.

Adrien Nash http://obama--nation.com

Stranger said...


The foundation of nations is the society upon which the nation is formed. Societies exist with or without the additional structure of government & law which may be built upon them.
Within that legal structure there is an allowance for people who are not natural members of the society but wish to join it and be accepted as members. They constitute less than 5% of most nations, -perhaps less than 1-2% with many nations.

They are a creation of the structure of law build upon the foundation of the society which constitutes the nation. The society itself is not a part of that structure but pre-dates it, -existing as a primal entity just like the herds and flocks seen in the rest of nature.

Their membership in their group is primal also, transmitted, conveyed, inherited by birth, -by blood connection to parents who are members. As such, their membership is an element of the fundamental structure of the society and not dependent on the legal structure of government which is built upon it.

That structure only deals with the membership of those who are outsiders, aliens, foreigners. They become legal members but the native society itself is composed purely of natural members because their membership in the society is a natural thing.

In the legal structure (built atop the society of natural members) that membership is recognized as natural citizenship.
It is natural national membership and nothing else. It is not legal membership because the built-up legal structure does not support the foundation which it is built upon. Legal members are a creation of the legal structure.

Natural members are a creation of the natural foundation. They do not required the acquiescence of the legal structure in order to be members of the society into which they were born as members, rather, the legal structure recognizes that the 97 +/- % of the nation’s members are the foundation on which it is built and its creator.
As such, they do not need the permission of their creation to be members of its foundational society nor the nation it has created.

Adrien Nash http://obama--nation.com

Stranger said...

now posted at obama--nation.com:

TRANSCENDENT, INVIOLABLE, A PRIORI CITIZENSHIP part 1

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/transcendent-citizenship/

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo Esq said....

"The point here is that the Constitution as presently written does not allow "citizens of the United States" at birth or after birth to be eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. It only allows "natural born citizens" to be eligible for those offices."

Now consider this majority decision of the SCOTUS in the Minor vs Happersett case, where it is made clear by the SCOTUS that the 14th Amendment (being part of "The Constitution") does NOT "say who shall be natural-born citizens"......

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens.

Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.

At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also.

These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."

Ergo: According to the SCOTUS, the 14th Amendment's saying that "all persons born", "in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof", is NOT saying who shall be natural born citizens.

just sayin'...

Stranger said...

That's a great counter-point to the distorters of the fact that the 14th Amendment is known as the Naturalization Amendment for a reason. The moment in time when naturalization begins (including at birth) does not changes its effect from being a legal process to being a natural process.
Remove the Wong opinion and what do you have? Children of aliens are aliens and children of citizens are citizens, -as it was for a century from the founding of the nation, with natural citizens still constituting over 98% of the population.
Being born a citizen is no guarantee of being born a natural citizen. Citizens-at-birth are via legal, Wong Kim Ark naturalization, while Citizens-by-birth are future citizens naturally, predestined from conception (with Time & Place (borders) being irrelevant).

One more point; "native" and "native-born" are NOT synonymous nor interchangeable. Natives can be born anywhere if born of natives (known as "native stock") while aliens can be native-born and are known as "foreign stock".

Adrien Nash obama--nation.com

MichaelN said...

Stranger said.........
"Citizens-at-birth are via legal, Wong Kim Ark naturalization, while Citizens-by-birth are future citizens naturally, predestined from conception (with Time & Place (borders) being irrelevant)."

Those US citizens, constitutionally eligible for President (of the US) are citizens-at-birth "via legal" based on PLACE, AND they must be first, citizens-by-birth "naturally", based on natural descent.

With unquestionable allegiance, loyalty and devotion, without any foreign ingredients.

Stranger said...

A.Nash writes:

You are imagining something that doesn't exist. All who are born as natural citizens are eligible. Natural citizenship is citizenship resulting from blood-connection alone. Artificial man-made borders have nothing to do with it whether in regard to members of families, or members of tribes or members of nations. Natural citizens are citizens by blood, NOT borders.

As for your imaginary "foreign ingredients", the geographic coordinates of your mother's location during your delivery from the womb impart zero "ingredients" into the psyche of any individual ever born. Don't try to argue that they do. That's a fools errand.

Allegiance does not spring from borders but from instilled patriotic sentiment. Foreign-born naturalized immigrant citizens can be far more protective of the United States and American citizenship than the native-born who take everything for granted.

Birth location is irrelevant or else the Constitution would read:
No person except a native-born natural citizen shall be eligible...

Those born as natural citizens are those born of citizens, period. That is Natural Law. That is the Law of Natural Membership. Nothing else is required.
Any argument otherwise is invented dogma.
There is no marriage of jus soli with jus sanguinis because there is no logical, practical, philosophical, nor psychological reason for such a marriage. None exists and none can be logically explained with actual facts about human psychology.

Imagination is the only basis for such an idea and the founding fathers were not into false assumptions about loyalty and location of birth.
They blew that idea out of the water with the Naturalization Act of 1790.
Or do you consider them stupid dunces for writing and passing as law an order for all government officers to recognize all natural citizens as Americans who not only are citizens, but are also eligible to be President (like the foreign-born sons of U.S. Ambassadors Thomas Jefferson and John Adams -if they had any)?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

You said:

“Those born as natural citizens are those born of citizens, period. That is Natural Law. That is the Law of Natural Membership. Nothing else is required.

Any argument otherwise is invented dogma.

There is no marriage of jus soli with jus sanguinis because there is no logical, practical, philosophical, nor psychological reason for such a marriage. None exists and none can be logically explained with actual facts about human psychology.”

*************
The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court does not agree with you. Here is how the Minor Court defined a “natural-born citizen:”

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875).

The Court’s definition of a “natural-born citizen” contains the necessary and sufficient conditions of (1) born in the country and (2) born to citizen parents. The definition is a paraphrase of Vattel’s found in Section 212 of The Law of Nations. Also, of great significance is that the Court did not in any way refer to the English common law in defining a “natural born citizen.” Rather, its definition is grounded in natural law and the law of nations. These are undeniable facts which the Monty Obots simply refuse to admit.

Stranger said...

Nash writes:

1. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court does not disagree with the facts I stated.

2. The Minor Court did not define a “natural-born citizen”. The justice that wrote the majority opinion observed that native-born children of citizens are natural born citizens. That was not a definition nor a holding of the court.
3. It cannot be honestly claimed that the court issued a definition in its holding nor that what was stated constituted a definition of any sort.

4. "The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that."

That is a false statement. Resort need not be had to ascertain that. The falsity of the assertion is centered on the word "elsewhere". There is no elsewhere required nor existent. All that's required is knowledge of the English language and the understanding of words.

5. "These were natives or natural-born citizens," There is no hyphen between natural and born except in the minds of those with no understanding of what they convey (natural citizens and born citizens, combined).

6."These were natives or natural-born citizens," Yes, that they are, but where is the holding of the court that they are the ONLY natural born citizens?
Lacking such a definitive exclusion of all others, no definition can be claimed. It's Definition 101. You know this but continue to deny it because it explodes the fiction that place-of-birth is an element of natural citizenship.

Your entire dogma is grounded on two false claims:
1. the court "issued" a definition (the court is relied upon to legitimize the authority of the false claim)
2. an observation constitutes a definition (no definition = no dogma) If the court did NOT apply its imprimatur to any definition, then its authority can't be claimed to support one.
If its words regarding natural born citizens does not constitute a real definition, then the claim that they did and that their authority supports it falls apart.

Stranger said...

A. Nash writes:


The "definition" of "Human" is something like this:

All beings born of humans and having
male genitalia are defined as "natural born humans".

~Analogous to: All persons born of Americans and having an American birth location are defined as "natural born American citizens".

Both statements are true, but what is FALSE is the assertion that Mario makes, which is the inverse. It is NOT true that "natural born human" is defined as all persons born with male genitalia.

And it is NOT true that "natural born citizen" is defined as solely Americans having a native birth location. Just because the first statements are true does not make the reverse statements true also.

A child can understand this instantly; why is it necessary to point out such a simple truth to supposedly intelligent adults?

A Citizen; A born citizen; A natural citizen; a born natural citizen; a natural born citizen. None of these terms require quotation marks because they are self-explanatory, but not so in Mario's universe because a natural born citizen MUST be labeled as a term of art in order to apply a definition to it which he has invented by misconstruing the kind of statements equal to the first one regarding male genitalia.

As Lincoln said; "Calling a dog's tail a leg does not make it one." And calling an observation a definition also does not make it one.
When you ground a dogma on a false assumption, its conclusion will always be erroneous.
It is not necessary to surround NBC with quotation marks as Mario finds necessary because it is in fact NOT a term of art and therefore does not have to be used as a quote from the Constitution.

The rule of constitutional interpretation is that words carry their common meaning unless they have no common meaning (bill of Attainder, corruption of blood, etc.).
So it is not only incorrect to label NBC as a term of art, it is in fact improper because its meaning is easily deduced by the words themselves.

Mario stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the Obamunist in labeling NBC a term of art. They just differ in what their adopted definitions are, when in fact there is no "definition" because it does not need defining by any authority other than the rules of the English language.
obama--nation.com

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

I of II

Again, you repeat your same old bunk here, accusing me of living in some universe which in truth is exactly the place where you reside.

(1) Emer de Vattel in Section 215 of The Law of Nations tells us how important place of birth is to citizenship. He tells us that, while nature might give to a child a certain citizenship status, still the positive laws of a country on the matter must be followed. He earlier tells us in Section 212 that under the law of nations, both place of birth and birth to citizen parents is necessary to make one a “natural-born citizen.”

(2) A constitutional republic and especially the judicial branch of government are guided in their decisions by standing laws or maxims that have withstood the test of time and which have been accepted by civilized nations. That means that the decision maker looks for a preexisting rule that applies to the factual situation being examined. Legal problems are not resolved as you suggest, by just making up rules as you go along based on one’s personal opinion. You keep telling us what a “natural born citizen” is, but you have yet to provide any source from which you obtain your definition. Do you really think that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, defining eligibility criteria for the President and Commander in Chief of the Military to whom they gave great and singular powers over the preservation and survival of the constitutional republic, did not have a clear and distinct definition of the clause when they inserted it into the Constitution? Is it reasonable to believe that they expected more future definitions to develop as time went on? Do you think that they just assumed that everyone would just find its meaning from the heavens and everyone would just agree what that meaning was? What is worse is that you espouse your nonsense when we know that there was no debate in either the Constitutional Convention or state ratifying conventions on the meaning of the clause. So all those people just happened to accept your kooky idea that the clause had no specific meaning because it came down to us from the God of Nature who was supposed to somehow impart in us mortals the wisdom and knowledge to know what the clause means, which in your view of the world you are the only one to whom God was generous enough to impart that knowledge.

(3) There has only been one and only one definition of a “natural born citizen” ever recognized and confirmed by the U.S. Supreme Court and that is the one stated by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor. That definition is traced back to the most immediate authoritative, respected, and influential source in relation to the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers which was Emer de Vattel. Here is Minor’s definition again:

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875) (a paraphrase of Vattel’s Section 212).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Note that the Court said “who shall be natural-born citizens” and that the common law is where we look “to ascertain that.” In other words, the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar (nomenclature referring to “natural-born citizen” versus “natural-born subject”) tells us “who shall be natural-born citizens.” The Court then gave us one and only one definition of the clause, i.e., all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens . . . were natives or natural-born citizens.” If “born in a country” was not a necessary condition of being a “natural-born citizen,” the Court would not have had any reason to include it in its statement, especially when the Court was telling us “who shall be natural-born citizens.” If there were other definitions of the clause, the Court would have given them to us, for it earlier said that the common law told us “who shall be natural-born citizens” and it set out to tell us what that law said. If that law said someone else was also a “natural-born citizen,” the Court would have told us, for that law was supposed to tell us “who shall be natural-born citizens.” The reality is that the Court gave no other definitions of the clause and surely did not give any that satisfies your appetite, and so no other definitions existed which would dictate that some other person “shall be [a] natural-born citizen[].” There was no need for the Court to write that the definition it provided was the “only” one that existed, for what the Court wrote has the same effect as though it would have expressly used the word “only.”

Furthermore, Minor said that at common law persons not satisfying the only definition that it gave of a “natural-born citizen” were “aliens or foreigners.” If there were other birth circumstances under which persons could be citizens at birth the court would not have said that at common law all persons who did not meet that law’s definition of a “natural born citizen” were “aliens or foreigners.” The Court did go one to demonstrate how Congress through its acts of naturalization created more citizens, either at birth or after birth. The Court did not say that those statutory citizens were also “natural-born citizens.” Nor did the Court say that the Fourteenth Amendment defined a “natural-born citizen.” So, given the Court’s clear explanation, only persons satisfying the definition of the common law could be “natural-born citizens.” All the rest of the citizens were either citizens at birth or after birth, but made so by act of Congress.

When Minor said “common-law,” it surely was not referring to the English common law which, except for parents who were foreign diplomats or military invaders, placed no relevancy upon the condition of the child’s parents, but rather American national common law which did.

Finally, we also know that under its holding, Wong Kim Ark also recognized another class of persons, children born in the country to alien parents, to be “citizens” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. This was the class about which Minor said “there have been doubts” as to whether they were citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. But again, not satisfying the original common law definition of the clause, these other citizens at birth are not “natural born citizens;” and neither did Minor say that they could be nor did Wong Kim Ark say that they were.

(4) Even under the colonial English common law, birth in the country was necessary to make one a “natural-born subject.” Parliament got around that birthplace requirement by passing statutes which granted subjecthood to children born out of the King’s dominion to British “natural-born subjects.”

So, Mr. Nash, while you might talk a big game, you have nothing but your personal nonsense to support your position.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...


See Obama Fails Stool Test; Natural Born Citizens Need No Act Of Man,

by CDR Charles R. Kerchner, PE (retired),

accessed at http://cdrkerchner.wordpress.com/2013/11/17/obama-fails-stool-test-natural-born-citizens-need-no-act-of-man-reprinted-birtherreport-com-with-a-twist/

Carlyle said...

Mario -

Do you know, have you been involved with Sheriff Arpaio and Mike Zullo. It is been really quiet from that quarter for some months except for broad hints from Carl Gallups that "something universe-shattering" is afoot. Carl and Mike have been really coy as to the details for various reason/excuses.

On one hand I understand that it may be imprudent to release details in the middle of things. On the other hand I am less interested in details than I am the time frame.

We may know that The One is guilty of multiple heinous and otherwise anti-American crimes -- but if he can stall long enough it will be all over and his agenda will have been fulfilled.

So, in the end, my big question and big worry is -- Can he be stopped in time?

Robert said...

Obama will be stopped. The polls show that his approval rating has dropped to 37% and that he is fast losing the trust of the American people. Look for a groundswell of people to start waking up to the fact that Obama's eligibility rating has always been and remains at 0% and that they have been royally scammed on this, too.

We'll be seeing lots of rats jumping from Obama's sinking ship as more an more citizens wake up and start asking the right questions and start looking for the right answers. And, then, holding the right people accountable.

Don't be the least bit surprised if this list includes several of the Obama shills who post here when they find out that their master lied to them, too. And, that Obama has included them among his expendable assets from the beginning.

What we're about to witness will be the greatest CYA exhibition in human history and may very well be the death of both major political parties and the rebirth of our Constitutional Republic.

Thanks Mario. Your time is coming. Freedom and Truth will prevail. Our house will be cleaned.

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo said .....

" So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).

She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.

She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency."
-----------------

This still holds true Mario.

Even with all their cozy-corner back-slapping at her blog, "Squeeky" and her fellow traitors haven't got the guts or decency to acknowledge the truth you have pointed to and their error.

It's for sure Jack Maskell wouldn't dare to come here to debate the matter of Article II "natural born Citizen".

Jack Maskell is not only a liar, a criminal and a traitor, but he is also a coward.

MichaelN said...

Here's a link to traitor Jack Maskell's deception paper, which has given the US Congress and Senate a convenient cover (i.e. rock) to shelter (i.e. hide) under.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf

http://www.fas.org/about/index.html

MichaelN said...

Fogbow Foggy said...

"Loren at Fogbow asks:

'There have been at least 8 attempts in recent years to amend the Constitution to allow naturalized citizens, such as Arnold Gropinator, to be eligible for the presidency.

But there has never been any attempt to amend the Constitution to specify that citizens who are jus soli only, but not jus sanguinis, may be eligible. Why not?' "

I replied.......
"Because all the jus soli only, US citizens, come under the category of "naturalized"."

and to date....... no reply from Loren or Foggy.

Anyway, here's some more stuff for you to ponder.

Lord Sir Edward Coke - Calvin's case...
"If a man hath a Ward by reason of a Seigniory, and is Outlawed, he forfeiteth the Wardship to the King: But if a man hath the Wardship of his own Son or Daughter, which is his heir apparent, and is Outlawed, he doth not forfeit this Wardship; for nature hath annexed it to the person of the Father"

what about this? from Lord Sir Edward Coke - Calvin's case?.....

"Calvin the Plaintiff naturalized by procreation and birth right"

or this?..... Coke again..

" An Alien is a subject that is born out of the ligeance of the king, and under the ligeance of another, and can have no real or personal action for or concerning land; but in every such action the tenant or defendant may plead that he was born in such a Country which is not within ligeance of the king, and demand judgment if he shall be answered.

And this is in effect the description which Littleton himself maketh, lib. 2. cap. 14. Villen. fol. 43. Alienigena est alienae gentis seu alience ligeantiae, qui etiam |[16 b] dicitur peregrinus, alienus, exoticus, extraneus, &c. Extraneus est subditus, qui extra terram, i.e. potestatem regis natus est.151

[151. ][Ed.: An alien born is of foreign birth or foreign allegiance, and is also called peregrinus (foreigner), alien, exotic, stranger, etc. A stranger is a subject who is born outside the land, that is, outside the king’s power.]

And the usual and right pleading of an alien born doth lively and truly describe and express what he is.

And therein two things are to be observed; 1. That the most usual and best pleading in this case is, both exclusive and inclusive, viz. extra ligeantiam domini Regis, &c. et infra ligeantiam alterius Regis,152 as it appeareth in 9 Ed. 4. 7. Book of Entries, fol. 244, &c. which cannot possibly be pleaded in this case, for two causes; First for that one king is Sovereign of both kingdoms; second, One ligeance is due by both to one Sovereign, and in case of an alien there must of necessity be several kings, and several ligeances. Secondly, no pleading was ever extra regnum,153 or extra legem,154 which are circumscribed to place, but extra ligeantiam,155 which (as it hath been said) is not local or tied to any place."

In case you can't figure it out, it's saying that, if one is not born under the ligeance of a subject, then one is alien born.

Coke, again...
"issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject"

.

Carlyle said...

I have been reading a lot of history and literature that discusses and describes European (particularly British) history.

In such (as far back as 1100ad), it was taken for granted (i.e. a self-evident truth) that all rights, titles, and natures of citizenship (i.e. royalty, nobility, gentry, etc.) flowed through bloodlines of the father, and sometimes through the mother.

This seems to have been true at least through the 1700s, perhaps longer.

NEVER were such things determined by place of birth, ALWAYS by lineage.

This is the immediate and visceral history of our Founding Fathers. Where did anyone ever get the idea that allegiance or "quality" had anything to do with soil?

Granted, my research is not from definitive legal documents nor specific cases at-law, but the notions and the trends are clear.

Our Founding Fathers could never even remotely assumed that soil was the key discriminant. At most it would have been a part of a bigger qualification, not the sole qualification.

I continue to be amazed and bewildered by the seemingly large number of ignorant people blithely attempting to pound square pegs into round holes.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

I of II

Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell argues that a “natural born citizen” is any person who by whatever legal means (Fourteenth Amendment, Act of Congress, or any other means) can demonstrate he or she was born a citizen of the United States. There are several problems with Maskell’s position which I have presented at this blog. I will now just state some of those problems.

First, Maskell has not provided any historical or legal evidence that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers accepted such a broad and far-reaching definition of the clause. Rather, what he gives us is his unsubstantiated personal opinion of what the clause means.

Second, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers were very concerned with foreign and monarchical influence invading the offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military. They used the “natural born citizen” clause, in keeping with John Jay’s 1787 written suggestion to then-General George Washington that a “strong check” was needed to prevent the power of the Commander in Chief of the Military from devolving upon any person not a “natural born citizen,” as a safety and security measure for the nation and specifically for those singular and all powerful civil and military offices. They viewed the clause as the best means by which to preserve the nation and those offices. Hence, they would have had a clear and distinct definition of the clause which would have adequately satisfied their national security purpose for in the future wanting to limit those offices only to the “natural born citizens.”

Third, such an ill-defined statement as Maskell puts forth as the definition of the clause, not providing any description of any mechanism or means by which one becomes a born citizen, would not have provided the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers with any clear and distinct definition of who were the "natural born citizens." There was no debate at either the Constitutional Convention or the state ratifying conventions on the meaning of a “natural born citizen.” But such a vague description of the clause as Maskell espouses could not, given the critical importance to the Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military and need to best preserve the nation and those offices, have been accepted without any debate on the matter.

Fourth, such a vague definition, if we can call it that, would have subjected the definition of the clause to constant legislative adjustment without duly passed constitutional amendment. It would have made the clause subject to Congress’s naturalization powers which include, among other things, the power to make any qualifying person (not only those subject to its jurisdiction such as children born in the United States to alien parents, but also those not subject to its jurisdiction such as children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents) a citizen at birth. The Framers included “natural born citizen” as a constitutional requirement to be met by anyone wanting to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. They would not have subjected such an important eligibility standard to the mere political whims of Congress and the voting public or to depend upon politically-driven Congressional immigration policy.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Fifth, Maskell uses laws such as the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress to define the “natural born citizen” clause which did not exist at the time that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers adopted the Constitution in 1787 and had it ratified in 1789. These subsequently enacted laws are also not consistent with the laws which our early Congress passed with respect to citizenship and naturalization. The Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 all demonstrate that Maskell is mistaken in how he defines a “natural born citizen, for these laws together treated children born in the United States to alien parents as aliens and in need of naturalization, and those born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents as naturalized “citizens,” and not “natural born citizens.”

All this points to the conclusion that when the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers inserted the “natural born citizen” clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, they had a specific definition for the clause in mind. The historical and legal record demonstrates that the definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. See Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758) (“The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”); Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875) (“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 708 (1898)(cites and quotes Minor’s Vattelian/American national common law definition of a “natural-born citizen”). This definition did, indeed, clearly explain who were to be the “natural born citizens,” not leaving any doubt on that score, and best provide for the preservation of the nation and the Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military by assuring that such children were born with allegiance and citizenship only to the United States and not to any foreign nation on whose soil they were born or whose allegiance and citizenship any one of the child’s parents may carry at the time of the child’s birth.

Jack Maskell can get traction only among the misinformed and those like the Monty Obots who like to change our Constitution and laws and revise our history in order to suit their current political agenda. All those who truly respect our history, Constitution, and rule of law, and not just give lip service to them, must reject Maskell’s and the Monty Obot’s revisionist and dangerous definition of a “natural born citizen” and embrace the true and only definition of a “natural born citizen,” which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes: (pt.1)

"Where did anyone ever get the idea that allegiance...[and nationality] had anything to do with soil?"

The confusion as to what constituted the actual natural source of citizenship was endemic in both Britain and the colonies because of the attempt within Britain to make into subjects all children born within the King's domain to alien fathers (alien-born subjects) and have them recognized as equal to those born under his dominion (natural born subjects). Those born under his dominion were those born to his natural subjects (natives). They were born subject to his authority via inheritance of that relationship from their English father.
But those born within his domain, territory, kingdom, jurisdiction having an alien father were viewed as second-class Englishmen since they were alien born.
So we see two notable situations: "within" does not mean "under". One refers merely to national borders while the other refers to natural allegiance inherited from a father who was subject solely to the one sovereign, -having no foreign sovereign of a former foreign homeland.
A natural subject was one who inherited his nationality status from an English father while a naturalized subject was one who inherited his from a subject of a foreign sovereign. A child born *within* English territory to such a alien subject inherited dual allegiance (just as conflicted the allegiance of his father).

Was he fully an Englishman or a semi-Englishman? His father was both a subject of the King via living within his domain but he remained a subject of his homeland's king via being born under his dominion.
So complexity resulted which was not natural and simple. That complexity badly muddied the water of understanding citizenship in both Britain and the colonies.

I've read it stated that four states followed the "Virginia model" of colony character (purely agrarian?) and granted their citizenship to native-born sons of their unnaturalized immigrants. Unfortunately, Washington, Jefferson, and Madison, among other notable founding fathers, were from Virginia and thus grew up with the impression that native-birth and citizenship go hand-in-hand, while none of the other states had such a tradition.
In them, sons of foreigners were subject to the foreign sovereign of their father since subjection flowed through him to his children. They did not tolerate dual allegiance nor dual citizenship. You, and your children, were either an American or a foreigner. Not both. That was anathema to their American mindset, but to be accurate, many did not have an American mind-set but were steeped in the British subject mindset which accepted the legitimacy of a king ruling over everyone (as long as he ruled well and fairly).

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes (pt.2)

The British subject mind-set was confused by the British tradition of making the alien-born sons of foreign immigrants equal to the native-born natural subjects born of Englishmen. They imposed over time a doctrine of equality. All subjects being equal before the law.

The confusion that resulted from that policy was that people eventually failed to recognize that being equal does not mean being the same. Just as in the U.S., foreigners suspected or charged with a crime are protected by the same rights as American citizens because the Constitution does not extend those rights solely to citizens but to all persons. Yet all persons, though equal under the law, are not the same because some are citizens and some are aliens. Some are born of natives and some are born of foreigners.

Their parents are different and they are different as well. But that fact has been forgotten, ignored, obfuscated, distorted, or presumptuously suggested to not exist. That is what Maskell did. His "conclusion" was a fog of misunderstanding at best, and a deliberate knowing lie at worst.

All on the Left have eaten the fruit of his perverted perspective. That's the willful, biased, distorted opinion that they must embrace in order to defend the legitimacy of their clearly naked emperor with no constitutional clothing. ~~~

Coke, again...
"issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject"

Where has this quote been hiding all though the last 5 years? It's devastating to the Obamunists position and their claims about its backing by Coke. It ends the argument before it even begins.

It illustrates the dichotomy between "within" and "under" the allegiance to or jurisdiction of the national government. "born upon his soyl," is purely territorial in nature, and carries no implication of subjection to national authority, -which is an entirely different matter. Obama defenders rely on the ambiguity of language to legitimize him constitutionally. But the ambiguity only exists in the minds of the deliberately blind and biased.
A child born under my roof ("within" my jurisdiction) is not "subject" to me in anyway because it is not born "under" subjection to me but to its parents. Same with nations, -and guilds, and medieval cities. Membership was inherited, -not obtained by birth location.

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes (pt.3)

Patrilineal descent was the sole basis of natural membership, just as it has always been in all natural nations. Many nations are not natural because they are the off-spring of colonization. They are not original natural nations as are the nations of Japan or Korea. Their members are all related by race, language, and culture, unlike nations like Yugoslavia and South Africa.
They were very divided by ethnicity, religion, and/or race. Having to be "one people" was not natural because of stark differences. Same with natural citizenship.
It's difference isn't those factors but instead is the difference not in nativity but in the origin of one's source (one's parents). If born of an outsider one cannot be a natural member regardless of nativity because natural membership is conveyed by blood and not by law based on borders.

Membership by law is never natural, -just as membership by nature is not "legal". No law exists (nor ever will) granting or espousing the citizenship of natural citizens. It is "a priori" membership that precedes and supercedes the very foundation of government.

"Legal citizens" are those made citizens by law. They are not eligible to serve as President because they are not natural citizens but are merely man-made citizens.

Talk of "birthright citizenship" only came from those raised in states that went against nature and granted "sons of the soil" citizenship regardless of the foreigness of their immigrant fathers. They are the U.S.-born, alien-born citizens.

They are citizens "from" birth, but not citizens "by" birth. The soil did not give birth to them. Foreigners did, and foreigners can't produce natural citizens anymore than citizens can produce foreigners.
Nationality is only naturally conveyed via blood connection. Any other means in unnatural even though legal and universally accepted as traditional.
It is a perversion of truth to claim that natural citizenship results from anything other than citizen parents.

Carlyle said...

I am unsure if soil is part of the definition of NBC. However, I lean that way because Mario's research and logic makes sense to me and because I strongly believe that the Founding Fathers meant to be as exclusionary as possible.

My point is the following: It is ludicrous and incomprehensible to have a definition of NBC that does not depend strongly on lineage and blood.

Further the "soil only" argument is totally laughable.

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes

Nationality based on birth within borders is the bastard off-spring of colonization of property that belonged to a monarch. Such property was not a part of the king's nation just as U.S. territories were not a part of the United States (the Union), so the royal authority could toss aside national membership by descent and recognize instead nationality determined by nativity.

He held absolute authority in his foreign territories so no body of law-makers had to be consulted. Thus jus soli arose in the New World and other colonized territories.
The one big unanswered question I have is as to whether or not it was in effect in the colonies that rejected it when they wrote their Constitutions. Did they reject it or was it never in effect in them? Was it always and only jus sanguinis or did they switch to it after winning the War?
No one that I've read has ever addressed the issue so it remains as a black hole.
Jus sanguinis has no connection to jus soli and that is why those who espouse Mario's "term of art" "definition" of NBC must reject jus sanguinis as the basis of natural citizenship, and even worse, must reject the entire existence of natural citizenship. That is a bridge too far both in the realm of reason and historical fact.

Mario, like the Obamunists, holds fasts to the fiction that NBC is a term of art. He adds the requirement of jus sanguinis while they reject it as part of the definition. They are both wrong. It is neither jus soli, nor jus soli + jus sanguinis. It is jus sanguinis alone. Membership by descent, -just as in families.
obama--nation.com

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Mario points out an important consideration regarding the meaning of NBC, that being the total lack of discussion as to its meaning, -the total lack of ambiguity in the minds of the framers and ratifiers.

If "natural" was interchangeable with "native" in their thinking, and they required only native-born Presidents, then they certainly would have worded the eligibility clause to state that; "No person, except a native-born citizen..." -which the Obama defenders argue the clause actually means, while the interpretation that Mario attaches to NBC follows that fantasy but adds the element of natural citizenship: "No person, except a native-born natural citizen..."

But what it actually means is: "No citizen, except one born a natural citizen (a citizen-by-nature) shall be eligible...".

That meaning rejects those made natural citizens by the fiction of law known as natural-ization.
It's all a plain and simple straight-forward mandate for only a jus sanguinis citizen. Nothing more and nothing less.
Native-birth is irrelevant, and a foreign father is disqualifying.

Sons of American Ambassadors (like T. Jefferson and J. Adams) were eligible though born in Paris or London. American fathers were what produced natural American children, -NOT American soil nor American law, -neither of which produce anything naturally other than crops and crimes.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said A.R.Nash writes...
"Jus sanguinis has no connection to jus soli....."

Response:

Jus sanguinis has much to do with jus soli, when it comes to the natural born who is born in the land of the parents' allegiance.

In the context of the US Constitution, eligibility for the office of POTUS, was to be of the highest possible standard, with the least possible allegiance, loyalty, dedication, bond, influence, claim etc. to or by any other nation.

The Founders and Framers, with this imperative, and in their wisdom, were in part, duty-bound to ensure exclusion of those who in any way were "tainted" by any leaning toward foreign favor which might corrupt mono-national mind-set priority.

Whether the term "natural born ---------", outside the context of the US Constitution, describes one who at least is born to a citizen/tribal-member Father, without any regard to place of birth, is irrelevant.

Of course the Framers "saw" children born of US citizens as "natural-born citizens" (down-home meaning), the first naturalization act of 1790 is testimony........ but, with regard to Article II "natural born Citizen" the Congress and Senate radically changed the act in 1795, basically EXCLUDING the "natural-born citizen" (down-home meaning) from the Article II "natural born Citizen" (national security meaning), proving that PLACE of birth IS one essential quality required of one who would be a USC Article II "natural born Citizen".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

When speaking of who is eligible to be President, the general notion that we see in American history is that anyone wanting to be President had to be a "native" citizen of the United States. In its commonly understood meaning, a native citizen was one who was born in the United States and was a U.S. citizen from the moment of birth. So, historically, it has always been believed that birth in the United States is required in order to be President. In fact, it is believe by the American public that all our Presidents have been born in the United States. I say believed by the American public because there exist reasonable doubts whether de facto Presidents, Chester Arthur and Barack Obama, were born in the United States. As we will see below, like Obama, Arthur, even if born in the United States, was not a "natural born citizen," for he was born to non-U.S. citizen parents. I have yet to see any historical evidence that the American public knew of Arthur's birth to alien parents. If anyone, including the Monty Obots, has such evidence, I would like to see it.

This is not to say that birth in the United States is sufficient for presidential eligibility, for it is not. There does not exist any statement of our U.S. Supreme Court that birth alone in the United States makes one a "natural born citizen." Based on how the U.S. Supreme Court has defined a "natural born citizen" (for e.g., see the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875)), what is also needed in order to meet the constitutional standard of "natural born citizen" is birth to U.S. citizen parents. The historical record demonstrates that Founders such as James Wilson, Thomas Jefferson, David Ramsay, St. George Tucker, and John Marshall, among others, and our early Congress (see the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855), many members of which were Founders and Framers, all recognized and accepted that jus sanguinis was a required component of a "natural born citizen." Jus sanguinis was such a powerful element of allegiance that our First Congress, with the say of Representative James Madison and President George Washington, in the Naturalization Act of 1790 went as far as considering children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents as "natural born citizens." But this legislative grace (not sanctioned by the Constitution) only lasted for five years, for the Third Congress, again with the input of Representative Madison and President Washington, removed for such children the status of "natural born citizen" and replaced it with "citizen of the United States," who under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, were no longer eligible to be President.

Regarding the birth to citizen parents requirement, all our post early Presidents, except for Chester Arthur and Barack Obama, have been born to U.S. citizen parents.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...


II of II

As I have demonstrated in my court filings and on this blog, a "natural born citizen" has always had and continues to have despite the Fourteenth Amendment and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) one definition and that is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth. Applying this universal definition in the context of our Constitution, this means that only a child born in the United States or its jurisdictional equivalent to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child's birth is a "natural born citizen," and, also meeting the age and residency requirements of Article II, eligible to be President.

Both de facto President Barack Obama and Senator Ted Cruz do not meet this definition. Even if Obama was born in the United States (a fact which he did not prove in any court of law in which he has been sued on the issue), he was born to a U.S. citizen mother but not a U.S. citizen father. Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother, but a non-U.S. citizen father. So, since Obama and Cruz are neither "natural born citizens" nor "citizens of the United States" at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, they are both not eligible to be President.

Stranger said...

A.R. Nash writes:

Mario has caught himself in his own web with this:
"When speaking of who is eligible to be President, the general notion that we see in American history [NOTE: general notions are not equivalent to Truth] is that anyone wanting to be President had to be a "native" citizen of the United States. In its ***commonly understood*** meaning, a native citizen was one who was born in the United States and was a U.S. citizen from the moment of birth."

That description includes all "sons of the soil" citizens with alien-immigrant fathers. So in effect Mario has said that they were accepted as being eligible to be President since they were native-born citizens at birth.
Time to rethink and rephrase unless it is espoused that that was the actual view and "general notion" through-out all of the States as well as the central government.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

I did not say that born in the country is or ever has been sufficient for one to be a “natural born citizen.” Rather, what I said is that born in the country has been necessary for that status. I also explained that birth to citizen parents is also necessary for one to be a “natural born citizen.”

I also added that following our early presidents, other than Chester Arthur and Barack Obama, all our Presidents have been born in the country to citizen parents.

Stranger said...

Nash writes:

That is a totally disingenuous response. You don't need to re-state what you wrote in different words because I quoted you directly. By your words: "anyone wanting to be President had to be a 'native' citizen",
and: "a native citizen was one who was born in the United States and was a U.S. citizen from the moment of birth."

You erroneously defined what a true "native citizen" is by ambiguously not excluding children of foreigners who were born with citizenship thanks to WKA.

Your wording lacked precision but you are unwilling to acknowledge any error of wording on your part. Infallibility seems to be what you are attempting to retain for yourself.
You also wrote: "...and embrace the true and only definition of a “natural born citizen,”

You embrace the use of the word "only" in your "true and only definition" just as Vattel embraced it when he crafted his definition,..only he didn't. For a billion dollars you can't find his use of the word, and yet in the real world no definition of a category can exist without the use of the word "only" Even the word "all" is insufficient.

Anything and everything that lacks it is merely a description, and descriptions are NOT definitions, just as common words are not "terms of art".

"All children born under my roof to my wife are my natural born children."

Mario's take-away: any child not born under my roof (born in a hospital) is not my natural born child because it was not born within my jurisdiction. It can only become my child via some form of automatic adoption (a la automatic naturalization at birth).

Even a third grader can see the absurd and insane falsity of such reasoning. But Mario can't because it explodes his whole dogma on NBC.

Jus Sanguinis has no relationship to geography. It is 100% based on blood and biological descent. A jus sanguinis President is one born of an American father and an American mother. All jurisdiction is through them and not through soil, including foreign soil.

Soil is irrelevant. It's irrelevant to natural citizenship, to Barack Obama, and to presidential eligibility. Parents are everything because blood is everything. Blood is life and life and nationality are conveyed by it alone. Soil cannot convey life or citizenship. But law can grant it and does. Only it's not natural. It purely legal in nature.

Unknown said...

"As I have demonstrated in my court filings and on this blog [...]"

Yeah? How'd that go?

Mr. Apuzzo, the rules of the world in your head are simply different from the rules in A.R.Nash's. MichaelN imagines yet another set of rules. That's fine. There's no requirement that you agree. We obots too told the rules as we saw them.

There is a difference in that you, as a attorney, chose to put your theories to the test before real-world authorities. The forums to which you and your clients chose to take your arguments told, in no uncertain terms, which of the theories prevails. According to the authorities to which you and your clients chose to seek rulings, the obots were right; you, and Adrien Nash, and MichaelN were wrong.

There is no law on the books requiring acceptance of reality. Nevertheless, there is a mandatory aspect to the real world. Choosing the land of your imagination is your right, but not a winning strategy.

And then there's a famous bit of wisdom, oft called "the first rule of holes", and
commonly credited to Denis Healey: If you find yourself in hole, stop digging. Attorney Apuzzo, if you want obots to stop rubbing your nose in your failure, stop declaring victory. When you open part two of another repetition of your prolix losing arguments with "As I have demonstrated in my court filings," how, at this point, can you not grasp which side your results support?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

But I did demonstrate my position as to the correct definition of a "natural born citizen" in my court filings. My demonstration stands, unrefuted.

I also have not see anything of substance in your writings here. You have been nothing more than a Monty Obot cheerleader, cheering and giving cover to Obama so as to legitimize Cruz.

You are free to provide your argument showing that I am wrong. Then the readers, based on reason, can tell us who is right and who is wrong.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

You fail to understand that when I said “had to be a native citizen,” it means that born in the country is a necessary condition. It does not mean that it is a sufficient condition.

I have always given the same algorithm, which I have based on the historical and legal record, for defining a “natural born citizen,” not only in my comment that you criticize, but in all my writings, i.e. born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. These (i.e., birth in the country and birth to citizen parents) are the necessary and sufficient conditions to be met for one to be a “natural born citizen.”

MichaelN said...

Unknown said .....
"According to the authorities to which you and your clients chose to seek rulings, the obots were right; you, and Adrien Nash, and MichaelN were wrong."

So?

There has not been a SCOTUS "ruling" in the matter of USC Art. II "natural born Citizen", except for the SCOTUS majority opinion in the case of Minor Vs Happersett, which clearly (as Mario Apuzzo has repeatedly shown you) defines a "natural born citizen" as one who is born in the place of one's parents who are citizens of that place.

For you "Unknown"...

Quote:
"Fallacy: Appeal to Authority

Also Known as: Fallacious Appeal to Authority, Misuse of Authority, Irrelevant Authority, Questionable Authority, Inappropriate Authority, Ad Verecundiam
Description of Appeal to Authority

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:

Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S.
Person A makes claim C about subject S.
Therefore, C is true.

This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject. More formally, if person A is not qualified to make reliable claims in subject S, then the argument will be fallacious.

This sort of reasoning is fallacious when the person in question is not an expert.

In such cases the reasoning is flawed because the fact that an unqualified person makes a claim does not provide any justification for the claim.

The claim could be true, but the fact that an unqualified person made the claim does not provide any rational reason to accept the claim as true.

When a person falls prey to this fallacy, they are accepting a claim as true without there being adequate evidence to do so.

More specifically, the person is accepting the claim because they erroneously believe that the person making the claim is a legitimate expert and hence that the claim is reasonable to accept.

Since people have a tendency to believe authorities (and there are, in fact, good reasons to accept some claims made by authorities) this fallacy is a fairly common one."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
---------------------

When has the SCOTUS ever "ruled" that native-birth alone sufficed to make a USC Art. II "natural born Citizen"?

.

Unknown said...

Any American can see we have lost control of this great Nation/Country. We all know we lost the natural rights of our birth. How do we reclaim it is the question. Any person of reasonable logic can see we expected our leaders to be a Person with loyalties only from the Founding Fathers understandings. The Law of Nations definition was feverishly looked at it 1775.

Unknown said...

What would protect this Country better? The idea that its leader protects its sovereignty and its people or a person of unknown decent.

Unknown said...

Who is educated to care...Do we have knowledge to understand. The education in this Country is ?? They think they are doing a great job..they want more money for this????? Kill this system of education. Provide real knowledge and understanding. Leadership in this Country is compromised by greed and power just like all the leaders who rule over leading...

MichaelN said...

Jack Maskell has committed an act of deception in employing "color of office", to deceive the US Congress and Senate as to the true and proper US Constitutional meaning of Art. II's "natural born Citizen".

["Color of office refers to an act usually committed by a public official under the appearance of authority, but which exceeds such authority. An affirmative act or omission, committed under color of office, is sometimes required to prove malfeasance in office."]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_%28law%29

Jack Maskell has LIED to the US Congress, the Senate and the US Citizens.

A US Grand Jury inquiry into the case of Jack Maskell's treasonous act(s) would be appropriate and is well overdue for action.

["Any citizen could bring a matter before a grand jury directly, from a public work that needed repair, to the delinquent conduct of a public official, to a complaint of a crime, and grand juries could conduct their own investigations. In that era most criminal prosecutions were conducted by private parties, either a law enforcement officer, a lawyer hired by a crime victim or his family, or even by laymen. A layman could bring a bill of indictment to the grand jury; if the grand jury found there was sufficient evidence for a trial, that the act was a crime under law, and that the court had jurisdiction, it would return the indictment to the complainant. The grand jury would then appoint the complaining party to exercise the authority of an attorney general, that is, one having a general power of attorney to represent the state in the case."]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_jury

Unknown said...

Sorry to say the legal system failed long ago.Stand up and against this old and deliberate way to desieve the just. We are the free, the people of gods world.

Stranger said...

A.R. Nash writes:

I just read yesterday in a commentary by Burt Prelutsky that it's a shame that only native-born citizens are eligible to be President.(?)
Even those who totally oppose Obama are suffering from an almost universal delusion that connects the presidency with native-birth when in fact there is no such connection.
Inheritance of membership is via parents. Inheritance of kingship is via parents. Inheritance of citizenship is via parents. No other element will produce a natural member, monarch, or citizen.

When the teachers were taught by teachers who who were taught by teachers who suffered from a fallacious conception, then error is endemic.
No court can legitimately find that Obama inherited U.S. citizenship from either his mother or his father or his birth location.

Birth location has nothing to do with inheritance. It is purely a matter of naturalization law.

Obama's presumed citizenship is purely illusory, being based on the U.S. executive policy since 1898 or 1899. Policy is not law. The Iranian sanctions were purely a matter of executive policy until it was codified by Congress as statutory law. If you have violated them before codification, you had not violated any actual law.

Citizenship based on the fictional basis of native-birth to non-immigrant foreigners has never been codified nor endorsed as U.S. constitutional law by any Supreme Court case.
So one can say that Obama is a U.S. citizen according to long-standing U.S. policy but one cannot say that he is a U.S. citizen by any actual law or Supreme Court opinion based on the 14th Amendment.
That means that his citizenship is bogus since it is based on nothing other than presumption based on nothing. No one can justify it nor even explain why the policy even exists. Once everyone fell into lock-step with the opinion of the Attorney General John Griggs around 1899 (following WKA) no one thought to question it.

That is still the status quo and since it's been such for five generations, it is inconceivable to the sycophants of big government authority that a policy so old could be flat-out wrong. And yet it is. Obama is actually not a U.S. citizen since his father was not an immigrant but a mere transient Visa card guest still "domiciled" in Kenya. Not being subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. federal government, neither was the son born to him because instead he was born subject to the authority of the British government through his father.
So today, he is not a British, Kenyan, nor a U.S. citizen, and probably no longer an Indonesian citizen either. He a a stateless person by law.

Unknown said...

Is it correct to say, “The Constitutions 'No Bill of… ex post facto Law shall be passed' Clause prevents the ‘All persons born… in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof' Clause from adding to the definition of who a Article Two Section One ‘natural born Citizen' is”?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

Gaining or maintaining political and economic power through deceit and artifice, at the expense of truth and the rule of law, is the true story of the "natural born citizen" controversy.

Unknown, a/k/a NotLinda, like others in her camp, tries to convince us that she is correct by appealing to authority. But for political ends, she picks authorities who are not true authorities and tells us only a selective story. She denies the authorities from before, during, and after the Founding era who demonstrate that a "natural born citizen" was a child born in a country to citizen parents. She ignores or casts a false light over the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875), which clearly and without any doubt confirmed the same long-standing American national common law constitutional definition of a "natural born citizen." She attempts to create a controlling authority out of the Fourteenth Amendment and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), which they are not. The former defines a “citizen,” not a “natural born citizen,” and the latter defined a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment and in so doing did not define a "natural born citizen" differently than did Minor. When all else fails, she just turns a blind eye through various mechanisms to the meaning of a "natural born citizen."

Unknown does all that to arrive at a fraudulent interpretation and application of the "natural born citizen" clause which she needs and uses for her political end which is to make constitutionally legitimate the ineligible Obama, which spills over to her ultimate goal which is to make the ineligible Ted Cruz constitutionally eligible to be President.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"But I did demonstrate my position as to the correct definition of a 'natural born citizen' in my court filings. My demonstration stands, unrefuted."

What effective court filings to so convince the attorney that filed them.

The point of my previous comment was that anyone can proclaim his ideas correct and his arguments unrefuted. The standard one must meet to do that is nil. On the other hand you, Esquire Apuzzo, ventured out of your blogsphere world of make-believe and put your theories to the test in the real world.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I also have not see anything of substance in your writings here. You have been nothing more than a Monty [Python] Obot cheerleader, cheering and giving cover to Obama so as to legitimize Cruz."

That hits close to home, I confess. In my teens I memorized Monty Python sketches and I probably would have dated more had I not.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You are free to provide your argument showing that I am wrong. Then the readers, based on reason, can tell us who is right and who is wrong."

Anyone who could tell "then" would have by now. We are almost a year into Obama's second term and I can't even convince you to stop digging.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

“SHOULD THE requirement that the president of the United States be a natural-born citizen be changed?

That's the gripping question that the recently formed Rendell Center for Citizenship and Civics at Arcadia University asked schools throughout the region for its first citizenship essay competition. Last week, finalists presented their essays addressing that question at the National Constitution Center to a panel of judges including former Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell and Judge Marjorie Rendell. We're publishing the first-prize winning essay, by Mrs. Friedlander's fifth-grade class at Merion Elementary School, Lower Merion School District.

We the fifth-grade citizens of Mrs. Friedlander's class believe that the requirements for president, as stated in the Constitution, should remain as written. We feel that it is not necessary for the constitutional criteria for president to be amended.

We believe that the Founding Fathers' concerns are just as valid today as they were over 200 years ago. They strongly believed that the leader of our country should be a devoted patriot. To ensure this loyalty, they required that any president should be a natural-born citizen. They wanted future presidents to be completely loyal to the United States of America. Alexander Hamilton and John Jay were particularly concerned that foreign influence could cloud a president's judgment and place the U.S. in unsteady hands. Their compelling arguments helped shape the requirements for president and are still extremely important and relevant today.
More than 15 countries modeled their constitutions after ours and all of these new democracies believed that nationality requirements were well-founded and crucial components. Our country is not alone in requiring that a citizen be born in the country that they wish to govern. Fidelity to your country, understanding the people and their way of life, and being a part of the culture of this great nation can only occur if you have been born and raised here.

When a president is elected and then takes the oath of office, he or she is pledging to "faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States."

To truly understand what this means, a person needs to have lived the life of a free American citizen. Appreciating the freedoms of our democracy can only occur if you have participated in living this way your whole life. Being able to practice your religion, have freedom of speech and organize protests is all part of being an American. To be appreciated and understood, these important American ideals and freedoms must be ingrained into the hearts and minds of each citizen from birth.

For all of these reasons, we believe that the Founding Fathers' requirement that a president be a natural-born citizen are as compelling today as they were on Sept. 17, 1787.”

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/opinion/20131218_A_5th-grade_case_for_U_S_-born_presidents.html#bPgrfvGbp64IohU1.99

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

There is no need for me to dig anywhere.

You still have not provided any substantive argument in the “natural born citizen” debate.

You still have not refuted my demonstration as to what the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ definition of a “natural born citizen” is.

You only continue to provide your trite and inane comments.

You speak of standards, but fail to realize that the only standard when looking for the truth regarding any matter is evidence, reason, and logic. That standard exists whether one is in the “blogsphere world” or the “real world.”

You do not have any historical or legal evidence that supports your revisionist definition of a “natural born citizen.”
Therefore, you want to rewrite that definition by telling us that a “born citizen” is the equivalent of a “natural born citizen.”

First, the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) already told us that under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution, a “natural born citizen” is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens,” and that under that same common law, all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” who qualifying thereunder could be naturalized under Acts of Congress. Neither Minor nor any other U.S. Supreme Court case said anything about a “born citizen” being a “natural born citizen.”

Second, even a grade school student can tell you that 1 + 2 does not equal 1 + 2 + 3. Just think what the Framers would think if they knew that your were trying to write their words out of the Constitution when interpreting it. They surely would consider you incompetent at best and corrupt at worst.

Unknown, you’ll just have to try again.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

I received the following email regarding my essay entitled,
'The Law of Nations or Principles of Natural Law' as U.S. Federal Common Law Not English Common Law Define What an Article II Natural Born Citizen Is,
http://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=7466841558189356289#editor/target=post;postID=1835963730624068266;onPublishedMenu=posts;onClosedMenu=posts;postNum=244;src=postname , which I am quoting and posting here without the sender’s name:

To: Mario Apuzzo, Esq.:

In paragraph 10 of your blog with the aforementioned title, you cite precedents for determining who is and who is not a "natural born citizen". I refer to your citation of Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898). In this case, as I understand it, the presiding Judge, Justice Gray, ignored all existing law, when he granted Wong citizenship, even ignoring existing U.S. statute 22-14, and the existing Treaty with China, which both forbade the conferring of U.S. citizenship upon any person of Chinese descent. It is also my understanding that Justice Gray acted with bias, as to deny Wong U.S. citizenship, he would have arbitrarily nullified the Presidency of Chester A. Arthur, who was also not a "natural born citizen" as defined by Vattel or by the framers of the 14th Amendment, thereby making null and void his appointment to the bench, which Arthur was the President making his appointment. Gray even stated in his opinion for the majority in Wong Kim Ark, that the 14th Amendment, and the aforementioned Treaty and Statute were ignored in rendering their decision, which in effect would make Wong Kim Ark bad law, and a bad decision by the Court. Do you agree or not. I would also submit that in any matter of law, the intent of the framers of said law is paramount in the application of that law, and the intent of the framers of the 14th Amendment was to reiterate that a "natural born citizen" is one who owes allegiance solely to the United States of America, and is subject solely to its jurisdiction, as was argued by Senator Trumbull, and Rep. Wilson in the debates leading up to the passage of the 14th Amendment in 1866, resulting in its ultimate ratification in 1868.

Name withheld.

My response: The text of the Fourteenth Amendment only includes a “citizen of the United States,” not a “natural born citizen.” The Amendment did not in any other way amend the Article II “natural born citizen” clause.

Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark agreed with Minor v. Happersett (1875) that the Fourteenth Amendment did not define a “natural born citizen.” But he did find that it defined a “citizen of the United States.” He interpreted and applied the Fourteenth Amendment which he said trumped any Act of Congress or treaty to resolve the question of whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was a “citizen” under that Amendment. But in doing that, he only defined a “citizen” under that Amendment. He did not have to nor did he change the definition of an Article II “natural born citizen” as confirmed by Minor. Actually, he cited and quoted Minor’s American national common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, a definition which Wong, born to alien parents, did not meet. He also distinguished a “natural born citizen” from a child born in the United States to alien parents when he said that the latter is just as much a “citizen” as a “natural born citizen” by the fact of being born in the country. It is true that all U.S. “citizen” are equal in privileges, immunities, and rights, except that only a “natural born citizen” is eligible to be President. See Schneider v. Rusk, 377 U.S. 163, 165 (1964) ("We start from the premise that the rights of citizenship of the native born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the ‘natural born’ citizen is eligible to be President. Art. II, § 1").

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

What is also amazing is that the U.S. Supreme Court in neither Minor nor Wong Kim Ark, when addressing the issue of whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was a “citizen,” mentioned Chester Arthur who became both Vice-President and then President, positions which required that he be a “natural born citizen,” even though Arthur was born in the United States to alien parents. The Court’s silence regarding Arthur, along with silence by various commentators such as George D. Collins, http://www.scribd.com/doc/19071886/Are-Persons-Born-Within-the-United-States-Ipso-Facto-Citizens-Thereof-George-D-Collins, and Breckenridge Long, Is Mr. Charles Evans Hughes a “Natural Born Citizen” Within the Meaning of the Constitution? Chicago Legal News, Vol. 146, p. 220 (1916), proves that the public did not know that Arthur was born to alien parents.

Regarding the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ rationale for inserting the “natural born citizen” clause into the presidential eligibility requirements, they sought to preserve the new constitutional republic for the future the best that they could. Hence, they sought to keep out of the national government in general and out of the office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military in particular all foreign and monarchical influence. The House and Senate were collegial bodies and so they accepted that even “citizens” for a minimum of 7 and 9 years, respectively, could hold those positions. But the Office of President and Commander in Chief was a unique constitutional office, singular and all-powerful both civilly and militarily. They concluded that a would-be President and Commander needed to be not only a “citizen,” but a “natural born citizen.” With the “natural born citizen” clause, which as Minor confirmed required that a would-be President and Commander be born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, they would provide for a stronger check against that influence entering those offices and thereby best preserve the nation as they conceived it under republican principles, for a “natural born citizen” is born in the United States (cutting off any foreign nation’s jus soli claim) to U.S. citizen parents (cutting off any foreign nation’s jus sanguinis claim) and therefore with citizenship and allegiance only to the United States.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Here is a good one:

Christopher Strunk applied to the King’s County New York Supreme Court to re-argue his case, Strunk v. New York State Board of Elections. Judge Arthur Schack, denying his application, wrote:

"[T]he Fourteenth Amendment defines citizenship as '[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States.' Moreover, the United States Supreme Court held, in Miller v Albright (452 US 420, 423-424 [1998]), that:

There are "two sources of citizenship and two only: birth and naturalization." United States v Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 649, 702 (1898). Within the former category, the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution guarantees that every person "born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization." 169 US at 702.

Thus, anyone born in the United States is a natural-born citizen, irrespective of parentage.”

The problem with Judge Schack’s reasoning, apart that he did not exclude from Fourteenth Amendment citizenship children born in the United States to foreign diplomats and military invaders, is that the Fourteenth Amendment only defines a “citizen,” not a “natural born citizen.” Hence, to say that there are only two ways to be a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment, birth or naturalization, does not go to proving what the definition of a “natural born citizen” is and is no basis to conclude that any person who is a “born citizen” is a natural born citizen.”
Again, Article II says “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.” The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) defined a “natural born citizen.” Wong Kim Ark, a Fourteenth Amendment case, did not define a “natural born citizen” differently from how Minor defined one, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. In fact, Wong Kim Ark cited and quoted Minor and its definition of a “natural born citizen.” Note that Judge Schack does not even attempt to address Minor let alone reconcile it with Wong Kim Ark.

Hence, with all due respect, I must state that Judge Schack errs again.

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes:

~the 5th graders stated:
"Our country is not alone in requiring that a citizen be born in the country that they wish to govern."
The only problem is that our country does not require native-birth. It requires natural citizenship. The only people whose citizenship is derived from native-birth are children of aliens. The 97% of American citizens derive their citizenship naturally, -from their parents, -not from the benevolence of American law based on birth within U.S. borders.

"Fidelity to your country, understanding the people and their way of life, and being a part of the culture of this great nation can only occur if you have been born and raised here."

Correction: "can only occur if you have been indoctrinated with American values by American parents"
Medieval Jihadist Islamist parents will not inculcate American values into their U.S. born children.

"To be appreciated and understood, these important American ideals and freedoms must be ingrained into the hearts and minds of each citizen from birth."

Note that nothing is "ingrained" by U.S. "soil" or borders. Ingraining occurs solely due to teachers of American values, beginning with parents that appreciate them.

The President can be born anywhere as long as he or she is the off-spring of Americans, thereby being born as natural citizens, but 14 years of residency is also required. John McCain could have lived in Panama until his 50s, moved to the U.S. and run for the presidency 14 years later because he was born a natural citizen.

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Judge Arthur Schack is an idiot. How in the world can he not be aware that the nick-name of the 14th Amendment citizenship clause is "the Naturalization Clause"? It's the first thing your read when you look it up on Wikipedia. Geeze!

And again, how can he be a judge and not know that naturalization does not have to involve any naturalization process? The Vietnamese refugees, if memory serves me, were mass naturalized by Congress. That was over 100,000 souls.

And what does he think "naturalization" means? It means "made natural", i.e., made into a natural citizen just like one born of citizens. The United States does not have any naturalized citizens because all citizens are natural citizens by our fiction of law known as the doctrine of equality. Natural-ized means made natural. Citizen-ized means made a citizen. The U.S. doesn't have a citizenization practice that involves anything other than natural citizenship.

"Thus, anyone born in the United States is a natural-born citizen, irrespective of parentage.”

What stupidity! And if the parents were sovereign Native Americans, or foreign diplomats? Saying "anyone" is an asinine oversimplification, but then some people have overly-simple minds.
"irrespective of parentage"? What exactly is respective of parentage? Answer: Natural citizenship. What is natural citizenship dependent on? American parents. Birth is everything, iow; birth parentage. The momentary incidental location of birth is irrelevant to natural citizenship.

Just ask any Native American if they are considered aliens to their parent's tribe if not born on the reservation.
http://obama--nation.com

MichaelN said...

Stranger/A.R. Nash said...

"The President can be born anywhere as long as he or she is the off-spring of Americans,..."
-------------------

WRONG!

You are making this up.

There is nothing, from the US authorities which matter, that supports your wish.

A USC Article II "natural born Citizen" is, according to the SCOTUS, one who is born to US citizen parents AND native-born to the US.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

You are correct. Stranger/Adrien Nash just keeps repeating his made up stuff. He goes on and on with his natural membership theory without ever providing any legal support for his position.

The Monty Obots are no better. They put forth a manufactured definition of a "natural born citizen," i.e., any person who is a "born citizen," regardless how the status is obtained, is a "natural born citizen." At face value, that definition is mere nonsense, for it reads out of the Constitution the word "natural," which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers surely incorporated into the clause for a specific reason.

Based on the historical record, Acts of Congress, and U.S. Supreme Court case law, there has only been one definition of a "natural born citizen" and that is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens.

Unknown said...

art shack is a dishonest hackjoke of a judge. the 14th only talks about a citizen of the US and if had read article 2 he would know a citizen of the US has not been eligible since adoption of Constitution. If you do not believe me read it yourself. the 14th or any act of congress for that matter (besides NA 1790) have only described ways to become a citizen of the US.

Unknown said...

art shack is a dishonest hackjoke of a judge. the 14th only talks about a citizen of the US and if had read article 2 he would know a citizen of the US has not been eligible since adoption of Constitution. If you do not believe me read it yourself. the 14th or any act of congress for that matter (besides NA 1790) have only described ways to become a citizen of the US.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Gaining or maintaining political and economic power through deceit and artifice, at the expense of truth and the rule of law, is the true story of the 'natural born citizen' controversy."

Absolutely. What really offends people's sense of fair play and the rule of law is what a fringe-of-a-fringe tried to Obama with this two-citizen-parent nonsense. In our time there was never any question that the native-born were eligible until a certain faction needed reasons why Obama cannot be president.

Obots can cite scholarly articles, courts, civics textbooks and so on saying that the native-born are eligible. The twofers cannot even cite themselves holding their contrary view before about November of 2008. Their reverences are either so old that they were talking about a time before U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), or so recent that Obama is their issue.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Unknown, a/k/a NotLinda, like others in her camp, tries to convince us that she is correct by appealing to authority. But for political ends, she picks authorities who are not true authorities and tells us only a selective story."

And then we look at my favorite authorities to pick and stories to select: Esquire Apuzzo's own cases, the central subject of this blog. Earlier in this thread Apuzzo tells me, "your favorite is Judge Masin in Purpura and Moran v. Obama". Purpura and Moran are Apuzzo's clients. Apuzzo served legal papers on Obama to drag this dispute before *my* favorite judge. Does that not seem fantastically unwise?

Mr. Apuzzo, you are in poor position to say that your courts are not true authorities because you yourself chose to seek rulings from them. If I selected them it is only because you made them particularly relevant here by selecting them first.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You still have not refuted my demonstration as to what the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ definition of a 'natural born citizen' is."

Imaging my surprise to hear you proclaim yourself correct yet again.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"First, the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) already told us that under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution, a 'natural born citizen' is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens,"

No, Mr. Apuzzo, they had it the other way: A child born in the country to parents who were its citizens is a natural-born citizen, without doubt. Yes, he or she is. But that an X is a Y does not imply that only an X is Y. You lost your cases not because of subtle weaknesses in legal interpretation, but because of grade-school level fallacies.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Just think what the Framers would think if they knew that your were trying to write their words out of the Constitution when interpreting it. They surely would consider you incompetent at best and corrupt at worst."

And in another comment Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The problem with Judge Schack’s reasoning [...]"

The pattern repeats. You imagine those who are not alive to speak for themselves siding with you, and another real judge says that you're wrong. In your head you bat a thousand. In reality, zero.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Leo and Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

What is amazing is that the Monty Obots and judges like New Jersey Administrative Law Judge Jeff S. Masin in Purpura/Moran v. Obama and New York State Supreme Court Justice Arthur Schack in Strunk v. Obama think that the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment did not have sense enough to know that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 expressly states that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, only a "natural born citizen" is eligible to be President and that a "Citizen of the United States" is not, and therefore being a "citizen of the United States" alone was not sufficient to be a "natural born Citizen," and that in the Amendment, like Congress did in all its naturalization acts, they chose to expressly define a "citizen of the United States" and not a "natural born Citizen."

The "natural born Citizen" clause is not some general constitutional concept which because of the passage of time, the current conditions of today's society, or social necessity needs to be adapted to modern conditions so as to satisfy some current need. Rather, it is a specific word of art whose meaning has not and need not change over time unless changed by constitutional amendment. Hence, there is no basis, if there ever is any, for calling for the "Living Constitution" when it comes to the "natural born Citizen" clause. Interpreting the clause by changing it to "native-born citizen" (meaning citizenship by birth in the country alone grants one the right to be eligible to be President) or taking words away from it by calling it "born citizen" (meaning all those who acquire citizenship at birth by whatever means are eligible to be President) are all a violation of what the people consented to when they expressly wrote and ratified their Constitution. These revisionist definitions of the "natural born citizen" clause, supposedly done without duly passed and ratified constitutional amendment and put forth by their current advocates without historical and legal evidence for their support, all violate the Constitution because the one and only constitutional meaning for the clause existed under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution which Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (distinguished a "natural born citizen" from a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment and held that under the colonial English common law tradition being born in the country to domiciled and resident friendly and non-diplomatic alien parents was sufficient to grant one the status of a "citizen of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment) told us was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Therefore, defining a 1787 "natural born Citizen" by using the 1868 Fourteenth Amendment or some current naturalization Act of Congress rather than its actual 1787 constitutional common law definition which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to define the clause and which Minor informed us was under that common law a child born in a county to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth, is either incompetence or corruption or both.

Finally, I do not know what planet people like Unknown/NotLinda come from. They would have us believe that when the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, after just fighting and winning a bloody revolution with England which broke the political tie between the colonies and England, and thereby earned them the right to be called U.S. citizens (not British subjects) and to conceive of and constitute the new constitutional republic according to their ideals, and having taken express, explicit, and calculated steps by requiring that future Presidents not only be U.S. "citizens," but U.S. "natural born citizens" so as to keep out of the government and offices of President and Military Commander foreign and monarchical influence, would give the constitutional right and privilege of being President and Commander in Chief of the Military to a child born to non-U.S. (British) citizen parents.

Unknown said...

if one of the parents is a alien then the child is a dual citizen at best which is why both parents must be citizens. the US govt and the King did not recognize dual allegiances back in 1790s and probably in 1800s as well so you had to be one or the other. It was a act of treason to renounce your british citizenship during time of King George which was a fact well known by the Founders. A newly minted "citizen of the US" takes a oath to US Constitution and renounces all loyaltys to any other country and even they are not eligible now and a dual has never been eligible in article 2. I am totally disgusted by these judges and congress. If the obamabots want a "citizen" to be eligible then amend article 2 and spare us the gibberish. I do not think this clown is even a citizen with a fake social and forged draft card

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Mario boldly goes where no rational mind follows: "Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 expressly states that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, only a "natural born citizen" is eligible to be President and that a "Citizen of the United States" is not,"

No, it does not expressly state that a citizen of the United States is NOT eligible after the Constitution's adoption. Why do you dare make such a clearly erroneous statement? It instead requires that only a citizen of the U.S. at the time of the adoption is eligible,..or a natural born citizen (without any conditions other than age and duration of residency).

That is equivalent to saying that only AKA-registered pure-bred dogs are eligible to compete in the first ever national dog show, or pure-breed dogs alive before the competition.
Fact: 98% of pure-breed dogs are AKA-registered.
(98% of citizens of the United States are born as natural citizens of the United States.)

Fact: Registered pure-bred dogs are also pure-breed dogs.
(Natural born citizens of the United States are also citizens of the United States.)

One has to have a tightly embraced ideology to assert that natural born citizens are not citizens of the United States, -and yet Mr. Apuzzo makes such an assertion.

He justifies it in his own mind by the fiction that the words "natural born citizen" are a "word of art", but then he compounds that illogical error by asserting against all common sense that "citizen of the United States" does not mean what it states but instead is also a "word of art" which excludes all natural citizens (the 98%).
A grown-up logical mind cannot unbend such twisted logic for him because he embraces it with a dogged determination. He is beyond correction. His dogma is perfect. Problem is that it is pure fiction.

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"First, the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) ...a 'natural born citizen' is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens,"

That is bass ackwards. Yoda says: "The cart before the horse puts such wording. True the reserve is."

Correct & True: "A child born in a country to parents who are its citizens is a natural born citizen."

Reversing the two segments completely alters the meaning of the statement and morphs it into a different statement. In the correct order, the thing being described is "a child born..." Such a child is labeled an nbc.

In the reverse order that changes and instead nbc is what is being described and it is labeled as "a child born..."

A key word is the word "a", as in "a child", -as opposed to "only children..."
You can correctly say that all children born...are nbc, but that only means what it means. It does NOT mean that ONLY children born...are nbc. (Not all pure-bred dogs are AKA registered pure-breds.)

NBCs are not distinguished from citizens of the U.S. It's the opposite. Citizens are distinguished from NBCs because mere citizens lack something that NBCs have (American parents) but NBCs lack nothing that mere citizens have (other than legal citizenship.

The citizenship of NBCs does not emanate from "legal" Law but from Natural Law. It pre-dates, supersedes, underlies and surrounds the puny realm of human law which is established upon it.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

I see that you have yourself all mixed up. Let me see if I can sort it out for you.

The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 allowed "Citizens of the United States" to be eligible to be President, provided they had that status as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution. That means that such persons had to be born on a date on or before the Constitution was adopted. For those born after the Constitution was adopted, Article II provides that no person who is not a "natural born citizen" is eligible to be President. Hence, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers gave us the "natural born citizen" clause and strictly tied it to future eligibility to be President. The Twelfth Amendment extended the clause to the Office of Vice-President.

Given this constitutional scheme, dividing citizens into "natural born citizens" and "citizens of the United States" is the only way to determine who among the citizens are constitutionally eligible to be President and Vice-President.

The Constitution calls a member of the United States a "citizen."

We can see from Article I and II, the Constitution recognizes only two classes of "citizens," "natural born citizens" and "citizens of the United States."

Note that the text of the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, and treaties only address who are to be "citizens of the United States." The legislative history of these laws also shows that they have never been intended to define what a "natural born citizen" is.

Of course, all citizens are citizens.

Some citizens are "natural born citizens" and some are not. Under the applicable constitutional common law definition of the clause, only those born in the United States or its jurisdictional equivalent to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of their birth are "natural born citizens."

Those citizens who are not "natural born citizens," being citizens, must be "citizens of the United States." These citizens who are not "natural born citizens" acquire their citizenship by any other means than by qualifying under the constitutional common law definition of a "natural born citizen." These other means can be by way of positive law such as the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaty.

All "natural born citizens" are citizens, but not all citizens are "natural born citizens."

All "citizens of the United States" are citizens, but not all citizens are "citizens of the United States," for they can be "natural born citizens."

Both being citizens, a "natural born citizen" has all the privileges, immunities, and rights that a "citizen of the United States" has and vice versa, except a "citizen of the United States," not being a "natural born citizen," is not eligible under the Constitution to be President or Vice-President.


thalightguy said...

The “Citizens of the Unites States” are the “Members” of the United States, as in “Everyone” who is a citizen.

At Adoption of the Constitution anyone who was a “Member” of the United States could become President.

After Adoption not everyone who was a “Member” could become President, only those Members who were “Members at Adoption” or those “Members” who were “natural born” after Adoption could become President.

Unknown said...

Mario is right, the last time a citizen of the US was eligible was at time of adoption so it is unlikely there is a 227 year old person out there who was a us citizen in sept, 1787. A2 does not specify what country a natural born citizen must belong to but i will go out on a limb and say the person must be a natural born citizen of the US. My wife is from the philippines and is now a citizen of the US but unfortunately she was not a citizen at time of adoption because she is only 43. She can serve in congress but not vp. We are both citizens of the US but i am a native or natural born citizen of the US because i was born in NH in 1965
to us citizens

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"What is amazing is that the Monty Obots and judges like New Jersey Administrative Law Judge Jeff S. Masin in Purpura/Moran v. Obama and New York State Supreme Court Justice Arthur Schack in Strunk v. Obama think that the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment did not have sense enough to know that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 [...]"

No, 'tis a different group we think not to have enough sense. Judges Masin and Schack are not outliers. The parts of their decisions that address our issue are exemplary of what you get *every* time courts reach the "merits" of your case.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"The 'natural born Citizen' clause is not some general constitutional concept which because of the passage of time, the current conditions of today's society, or social necessity needs to be adapted to modern conditions so as to satisfy some current need."

So read the early writings on the Article II NBC clause and your position is debunked, at least as far as concerns the native-born. That foreign-born citizens from birth are eligible (upon meeting the age and residency requirements) is a more recent consensus but not a reversal of previous holdings. The only faction I know of trying to change the meaning of the term is yours.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Finally, I do not know what planet people like Unknown/NotLinda come from."

You have plenty of clues. Remember the sphere where your excursions turned out just as obots had predicted? Who but natives would know a land so well?

Also, looking back at your opening, I recommend reading up on planet Strunk before placing yourself so close to its far-out, eccentric, and unstable orbit.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

The Monty Obots insist that any person who is a "citizen at birth" is a "natural born citizen." Apart from other historical evidence, the Constitution itself and the U.S. Supreme Court tell us that this position is erroneous.

Article I provides that even persons who are "citizens" at least 7 years and 9 years, and meeting the given age requirements, may be Representatives and Senators, respectively.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 provides that "citizens," meeting the 35-years age and the 14-years residency requirements, may be President, provided they had that status as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution. For those born after the Constitution was adopted, it provides that only the "natural born citizens" may be President.

The Constitution at Article V states that the Constitution may be changed only by duly passed and ratified constitutional amendment.

In matters of citizenship, the Constitution gives to Congress only the power to naturalize. Article I, Section 8 grants to Congress only the power to make uniform the rules of naturalization. This means that Congress can determine who shall be "citizens" of the United States which impacts upon who may be Representatives or Senators. On the other hand, one who is a "natural born citizen" does not depend upon the rules of naturalization for that status. Rather, that birth status is a product of the law of nature as applied to the affairs of nations which becomes the law of nations, and which when adopted by a nation as part of its rules of decision through usage and custom instead of statutory enactment, becomes part of its common law. This means that Congress has no power to determine who the "natural born citizens" are or to change the definition of that status. Only through constitutional amendment can the definition of a "natural born citizen" be changed. Under its naturalization powers, Congress has the power to make any person a "citizen at birth." If the Monty Obot position is correct, it would mean that Congress can at any time determine who the "natural born citizens" are. But we have just seen that Congress does not have such power.

The Monty Obot thesis would also produce a constitutional scheme whereby given whatever Congressional Act were in effect at any given time, a set of birth circumstances would lead one to be a "natural born citizen" and at a different time those same birth circumstances may not qualify one for that birth status. In other words, under the "citizen at birth" thesis, the definition of a "natural born citizen" would constantly change throughout time without constitutional amendment. An example of such anomaly is found in the Naturalization Act of 1802. Starting with the Naturalization Act of 1790, and continuing with the Naturalization Act of 1795, children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were "citizens at birth." In the 1802 Naturalization Act, Congress provided that children born out of the United State to U.S. citizen parents, who obtained their citizenship after 1802, were aliens and not citizens, let alone "citizens at birth." So, under the Monty Obot position, those children were at one time "natural born citizens," but then with the

Continued …

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

change in the Congressional Act, children born under the same circumstances were no longer "natural born citizens." Congress again changed the law in 1855 and once again made such children "citizens at birth" and under the Monty Obot thesis once again "natural born citizens." Such a constitutional plan just does not make any sense, especially given that the "natural born citizen" status is the status that the Constitution requires our Presidents and Commanders in Chief to have. The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers gave us three eligibility requirements for those offices, "natural born citizen," at least 35 years of age, and at least 14 years of U.S. residency. Under this formulation of eligibility, being a "natural born citizen" is as fixed in meaning as is 35 years of age and 14 years a U.S. residents. It makes no sense that Congress could freely change at any time the meaning of a "natural born citizen," but could not change either the 35 or 14 years requirements without a constitutional amendment. The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers would not have written and ratified a constitutional plan which had no fixed eligibility requirement for the singular and all-powerful civil and military offices of the President and Commander in Chief.

Our U.S. Supreme Court has informed us what the definition of a "natural born citizen" is. In both Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), the Court told us that under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar a "natural born citizen" is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth (the Court paraphrasing the definition of the clause provided by Emer de Vattel in Section 212 of The Law of Nations (1758) (1797)) and that all persons not meeting that definition were "aliens or foreigners" and in need of naturalization under Acts of Congress in order to become "citizens of the United States." This is the only definition of the clause that has ever been articulated by our U.S. Supreme Court. Never has the U.S. Supreme Court said that a "citizen at birth" is the equivalent of a "natural born citizen." With the Fourteenth Amendment constitutionalizing one definition of a "citizen at birth,' i.e., a child born in the United States while subject to its jurisdiction, and not amending the original constitutional definition of an Article II "natural born citizen," the original common law definition of a "natural born citizen" still prevails today. Any Congressional formulation of what a "citizen at birth" is has surely not changed nor can it change that original constitutional meaning of the clause.

So, as we can see from these historical and legal sources and plain reason, the Monty Obot revisionist definition of a "natural born citizen" is no definition at all and nothing more than a false flag flown to give cover to the ineligible Barack Obama for the Office of President and Commander in Chief and even so graciously extended by them to Ted Cruz as further cover for Obama.

Robert said...

The preponderance of evidence confirms that Mr. Obama is not even a citizen of the United States, much less a natural born citizen as required by Article II.

By his own admission he was born under British jurisdiction to a British/Kenyan father. Thus, he is not eligible by Amendment 14.

In his own professional biography, for which he personally provided his own data and used for 14 years, he claimed that he was born in Kenya.

His grandmother confirmed this without equivocation when she clearly stated that she attended his birth in Kenya. (She later lied when she was told the consequences of her truth and has been effectively sequestered since.)

In spite of his Constitutional responsibility to qualify prior to assuming office, Mr. Obama has never offered, much less produced, any documents other than proven forgeries to address this issue. Thus, Mr. Obama is ineligible also because of Amendment 20.

Minor v Happersett and Wong Kim Ark also establish that Mr. Obama is not eligible as do all other supreme court cases that address the term "natural born citizen".

Every Immigration and Naturalization Act and our current naturalization and immigration laws also disqualify Mr. Obama.

He is also disqualified by the British Nationality Act.

In fact, there has never been presented even a single shred of evidence that supports his assumption of the office of President of the United States.

We are suffering under the tyranny of a complete and total fraud - exactly of the sort whom our Founders had in mind when they decided to restrict the office of the President from all but those with complete and total loyalty to the United States and our Constitution - to only those who were born in the country under its complete jurisdiction to parents who were also citizens.

And, even if Obama were born on our soil to citizen parents, our Founders would be astonished and disappointed that a child raised by anti American, Socialist, Marxist parents and mentors was able to evade the scrutiny of his life that was intended by the age and residency requirements without even a single serious question or challenge and assume our highest office. Obama would have been to them at least as repulsive as Benedict Arnold or British General Charles Cornwallis. There is no way on earth that they would ever accept him in our highest office.

thalightguy said...

https://play.google.com/store/books/details/United_States_Congress_Congressional_edition?id=NEBHAQAAIAAJ

THE EXECUTIVE DOCUMENTS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FOR THE FIRST SESSION OF THE FIFTY-SECOND CONGRESS. 1891-'92.

Report of the Secretary of The Interior [John Willock Noble]

Report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs [Thomas Jefferson Morgan]

October 1st, 1891

“(after quoting Minor v. Happersett) The original citizens of the United States were those who were members or citizens of the States forming the same at the time the nation was established, and the natural-born citizens of the United States are the descendants of these, and of persons who have become naturalized pursuant to laws enacted by Congress in accordance with the Constitution. Citizens by naturalization enjoy the same rights, privileges, and immunities that are enjoyed by natural-born citizens, with the exception that, under the Constitution, they are not eligible to the offices of President and Vice-President.”

Stranger said...

a.r. nash writes:

"a citizen of the US has not been eligible since adoption of Constitution."

That is a brain-dead distortion of plain English. Exactly what citizenship did they possess if not U.S. citizenship? Were they citizens of Canada instead?

Citizens of the US are not barred from serving, rather citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution are barred.

You cannot use the words "citizen of the United States" alone when referencing the eligibility clause. You must include the expiration language along with them.

The Constitution does not say that no "citizen of the US" shall be eligible after its adoption. Get that manner of thinking out of your head. Instead it bars everyone from serving and then makes two exceptions; one includes all (white, educated, Protestant, male) citizens alive at the time of the ratification, while the other requires in addition that after that date only citizens who were born as natural citizens of one of the 13 allied sovereign nations would be eligible. That meant that only progeny of American parents would be eligible, -not "sons of the soil" made citizens at birth regardless of their foreign non-citizen father.

RE the ambiguous term: "citizen at birth"; -someone said "the difference between the right word and the almost-right word is the difference between lightning and lightning bugs."

No citizen AT birth is allowed to be President. The President must be a citizen BY birth (-not by law).
Naturalization at birth is still naturalization. That is why the 14th Amendment citizenship clause is labeled the Naturalization clause.
Those born being citizens via being born of citizens and being born male are under a latent obligation to fight and die for their country if it comes to that. Those born of immigrants are also but not because of a natural duty. Rather it is an imposed duty, -imposed by statute, not Natural Law. They are not natural citizens.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

While it's vital to understand why Obama is not an American citizen by American law, it is also important to understand that he is considered to be an American citizen based on the entrenched institutionalized error of the Justice Department that goes back to Attorney General John Griggs in 1898-99 when he "interpreted" the import of the Wong decision, but did so ignorantly or dishonestly.

His executive order for what the U.S. citizenship policy would be going forward incredibly included those born in the U.S. but NOT subject to the jurisdiction of the federal government (visitors, tourists, temporary workers, scholars, entertainers, illegals, etc.)

Once his policy was disseminated to the State Department it became the official policy of the United States and a form of de facto law. But it is not real law. Sanctions against Iran were at first just like that; simply policy with no force of Congressional statute. Griggs' policy has in a sense been codified but not by Congress nor the Supreme Court because the full meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction" has never been "decided" by the high court.

Thus the codified language is entirely ambiguous and the policy could be changed by the A.G. overnight -making Obama an alien not just by law but also by policy.

see http://obama--nation.com

Unknown said...

No person EXCEPT a natural born Citizen, or citizen of the US, at TIME of adoption, is eligible. Mario is not the one who is brain dead

Carlyle said...

CDR Kerchner - are you here?

Can you or Mario or any one else give a good synopsis of the McInnish-Goode case Larry Klayman has at the Alabama Supreme court? I understand you have been close to that.

I think I understand the nature of the suit - basically against SoS Beth Chapman for failing to do her job and check eligibility.

What I don't understand is how he "wins". Or more specifically, what does he get if he wins.

At most it seems he could get a slap on the wrist for SoS, but not much else. That election is done and over and it is not going to be invalidated by anything that happens in Alabama.

Again, what relief is this case asking?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

That is correct. What is brain-dead is omitting "at the time of adoption" and stupidly stating that "Citizens of the United States" are ineligible to be President according to Art. II Sec. I. It does not bar citizens of the United States ever, rather it requires that they be more than citizens, -that they be natural citizens following the adoption.

All natural citizens of the United States are citizens of the United States. Mario has said that they are not because he has ascribed a "term of art" designation to "citizen of the U.S." THAT is what is brain-dead.
By that reasoning, no natural born citizen is eligible to serve in Congress because it is reserved for "citizens of the United States" and they are not natural born citizens by his interpretation.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

"Brain dead" is when in one instance you argue that a “citizen of the United States” is not barred from being President and then at the same time you argue that one has to be more than a “citizen of the United States” in order to be eligible to be President. If one must be more than a “citizen of the United States” to be eligible to be President, isn’t a “citizen of the United States” barred from being President? Please explain how it could be otherwise.

It is also brain dead to insist that the “citizen of the United States” class includes the “natural born citizens” as a subset for the only reason that Article I provides that a “citizen of the United States” for at least 7 or 9 years can be a Representative or Senator, respectively. This is a Monty Obot argument. The argument is that the class “citizen of the United States” must include a “natural born citizen” and therefore a “citizen of the United States” could also be a “natural born citizen,” for if that were not the case, “natural born citizens” could not be eligible to be Representatives or Senators because Article I says, among other things, that those wanting to be members of Congress must be at least 7- and 9-year “citizens of the United States,” respectively. I have already addressed this argument many times.

First, as I have previously explained to you, a “natural born citizen” enjoys all the privileges, immunities, and rights that a “citizen of the United States” has. That would include the political right to be a member of Congress. A “citizen of the United States,” once that status is bestowed upon a person by the Constitution or any other law, also enjoys all the privileges, immunities, and rights that a “natural born citizen” enjoys except per Article II and the Twelfth Amendment the political right and privilege of being President or Vice-President.

Second, there simply is nothing in Article I to suggest that “natural born citizens,” as properly defined under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution (Minor) and as therefore belonging within their own exclusive class, are excluded from being eligible for Congress. Eligibility requirements for political office are minimums. Hence, it is absurd to argue that if a “citizen of the United States” could not also be a “natural born citizen,” a “citizen of the United States” is eligible for Congress, but a “natural born citizen” would not be because Article I says that a “citizen of the United States” for at least 7 or 9 years can be a Representative or Senator, respectively, and makes no mention of a “natural born citizen” being so eligible. It makes no sense that someone could be President, who must be a “natural born citizen,” but not a member of Congress. A “natural born citizen” has a higher allegiance standard than does a “citizen of the United States.” Why would we be able to trust someone to be President, but not also a member of Congress?

So, there is no need to amend the definition of a “natural born citizen” so as to include within that exclusive class “citizens of the United States” for the sole purpose of allowing “natural born citizens” to be eligible for Congress or to qualify for any privilege, immunity, or right that the Constitution, Congress in any statute, or treaty may say is granted to a “citizen of the United States,” but not also say that it is also granted to a “natural born citizen.”


Unknown said...

Back on planet earth A2 says natural born citizen, not natural citizen. A citizen of the US is eligible to serve in Congress but no person EXCEPT a natural born Citizen is eligible for office of President now.

Unknown said...

merry christmas to mario and all the patriots who would like to see control of our country given back to We the People!

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

There is no such class as "citizen of the United States", just as there is no such class as "human beings" (in juxtaposition to inhuman beings). There cannot be one class and one only; -there must be more than one in order for contradistinction to exist. The classes that exist include: 1. natural born, 2. alien-born, 3. mixture of both. Most sub-classes are in class 3.
All of the members of the American nation are known as citizens. Citizens of what? Answer: of the United States, -hence they are all citizens of the United States, but about 3 percent of them are not natural born citizens of the United States since they are children of immigrant aliens. They are the naturalized-at-birth.

They are not eligible to be President because they were not born as natural citizens but were born as naturalized citizens due to US v WKA.

One percent or less of American natural citizens are born beyond US borders, but zero percent of the alien-born outside of the US are US citizens at birth because their citizenship is dependent on native-birth by US law as interpreted by the high court.

All of the alien-born absolutely must be born on US soil to obtain citizenship from birth.
None of the natural born need be born on US soil in order to be Americans because they inherit their nationality from the head of their family. They are born subject to one who is subject to the jurisdiction of the American government.
Subjection and nationality are passed from the head parent to off-spring. That is the way it always was and will always be. It's fundamental US policy, but if the head is an alien, US law now allows the mother's nationality to be imputed to he child as well if born abroad, thus producing a dual-citizen.

No dual citizen is a natural citizen because that requires both parents having the same origin (ie: nationality).

If an alien father is not a Green Card permanent resident, then the native-birth of his child is irrelevant because he is not subject to US jurisdiction.

By US Law his child is not an American. By US Policy it is an American. US policy does not follow US law. That's been the case since John Griggs made it be so in 1898. No one has ever contested his perversion of the Wong opinion.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: A “natural born citizen” has a higher allegiance standard than does a “citizen of the United States.”

There is no standard and there is no allegiance. Neither exist in the United States. Citizens have a responsibility, in a democratic republic, to defend their nation and participate in the process of its governance. The source of one's nationality is irrelevant to those responsibilities.

It does not matter if you hate the military and conscription, you WILL serve if called or you will serve time in a federal penitentiary, -even if you are a foreigner.

All foreigners who are permanent US residents are fully subject to the authority of Washington if they are male, and they must register with Selective Service between the ages of 18 and 25. They may be called to service up to around the age of 40.
Allegiance is not a factor. What is a factor for the position of Command in Chief is having no direct foreign roots. Only third generation indirect roots are allowed (through grandparents, -NOT parents). He must be born of Americans, -be 100% American by blood. Soil is irrelevant and is a legal determinant, -not a natural determinant. Soil is actually a reference to sovereign borders, -few of which are ever natural.

Citizenship ascribed due to soil or borders is legal citizenship and no legal citizen is eligible to be President.
Only national membership inherited or conveyed by blood is natural membership. Natural national membership is known as citizenship. Citizenship is nothing other than membership in a nation. It can be natural membership or legal membership. It cannot be both. About 3 percent of Americans are legal citizens and are ineligible to be President.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

leo derosia,

Merry Christmas to you also and Happy Holidays to all the other patriots who do not celebrate Christmas but rather their own holiday, whether religious or non-religious.

Regarding We the People controlling our country, let us keep in mind that the people, exercising their natural rights, made the free and independent states and our Constitution which united those states into our constitutional republic. In our constitutional republic, either under our federal and state constitutions or under some other federal or state law, all elected political offices are occupied by individuals for only a limited time. The people can always replace their elected representatives. If those being elected to public office have developed an interest that is contrary to that of the people or the people’s courts have erected laws that are contrary to the wish of the people, the people can amend their federal and state constitutions to address those problems.

The true challenge is in our nation providing an environment and culture in which the people can make knowing, voluntary, and intelligent decisions when selecting their elected representatives. That process involves people being educated about the past, present, and what could happen in the future, having access to an uncontrolled and free flow of accurate and complete information, and applying that information for their best personal and common interest.

thalightguy said...

Stranger/a.r.nash,

You said, “One percent or less of American natural citizens are born beyond US borders”.

Abraham Lincoln said, “How many legs does a dog have if you call its tail a leg? Four, just because you call a tail a leg does not make it so.”.

At adoption the U.S. Constitution did not say who the "Citizens of the United States" were, it only gave Congress the authority to Establish a Uniform Rule of Naturalization.

After adoption before these rules were established there was only one way to become a citizen of the U.S., this was by being born within the U.S. to two U.S. citizen parents. These children are the ones who the Founders understood to be the "natural born Citizens".

Persons born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents are not "natural born Citizens", if they were Congress would not have needed to use the Authority granted to them by the Constitution to establish these children as "citizens of the United States".

A person born in one generation cannot be a “natural born Citizen” if that same person born in another generation (past or present) under the same birth circumstances would not even be a “Citizen of the United States”.

Congress does not have the authority to add or take away from who a “natural born Citizen” is. The definition of a "natural born Citizen" is the same today as when it was inserted into the Constitution and it will remain so until and if it is ever Amended.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Carlyle 12/23/13 at 8:35 p.m.,

Generally, I do not comment on another lawyer's pending eligibility cases. I do not know what CDR Kerchner is willing to say about the case.

MichaelN said...

We are still where Jack Maskell has misled the US Congress and Senate, in an act of treason against the US constitutional republic.

It seems Jack hasn't got the guts to answer to the facts and truths which have rendered worthless his opinion/conclusion and exposed his treachery.

Come on Jack, where are you?

If you believe your opinion is correct, then you should have no problem.

Jack is just gonna hide behind color of authority and hope it goes away.

Jack Maskell, is a treasonous coward in hiding.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

Happy New Year to you and to all the readers of my blog.

Jack Maskell did not tell Congress what the Framers' definition of a "natural born citizen" of the United States was which Minor v Happersett (1875) told us was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth. Rather, what he told Congress was what he wants the definition to be, i.e., a person who is a "born citizen" of the United States by whatever means. In other words, his definition of a "natural born citizen" of the United States is a "born citizen." Apart that such a definition (if we can even call it a definition) looks pretty ridiculous on its face, Maskell has yet to provide any evidence that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a "natural born citizen" of the United States as any "born citizen" of the United States.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Jack Maskell did not tell Congress what the Framers' definition of a "natural born citizen" of the United States was"

The Congressional Research Service provides expert non-partisan analysis to our national government's legislative branch. Your theories, Mario Apuzzo, do not play at that level. The Framers did not provide a definition of "natural born citizen". Maskell is honest enough to deal with the legal and historical evidence we have, rather than fabricate whatever he wants like you do.

You choose to take your theories to court, Attorney Apuzzo, and thereby also tested Maskell's. Your results generally support Maskell's analysis and specifically refute your own. That's not just happenstance. It's not because you happened to draw my favorite Judges. The CSR reports did not please you and MichaelN, but by real-world standards they've proven solid.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"which Minor v Happersett (1875) told us was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth."

Do you think if you keep repeating that enough times the text will retro-actively morph into what you say? As has been pointed out to you multiple times before, Minor has it in the other direction: A child born in a country to parents who were its citizens is a natural-born citizen, undoubtedly. You are trying to argue that *only* such a child is a natural-born citizen, but if you know of some U.S. authority implying that, why have you not cited it already?

Happy New Year, but fair warning: Your stuff is unlikely to play any better in 2014.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You said:

“The Congressional Research Service provides expert non-partisan analysis to our national government's legislative branch. Your theories, Mario Apuzzo, do not play at that level."

So you are naïve enough to actually believe that any part of the government is non-partisan. My friend, as long as there will be political parties and interest groups vying for power and authority to make laws for political society and dolling out jobs in the government, anything that government does will always be partisan.

I also note that you are so small-minded that you believe that just because Jack Maskell is addressing Congress what he says is automatically correct.

You said: “The Framers did not provide a definition of ‘natural born citizen’. Maskell is honest enough to deal with the legal and historical evidence we have, rather than fabricate whatever he wants like you do.”

So, you concede that neither you nor Jack Maskell know of any definition of a “natural born citizen” that the Framers relied upon when they inserted the “natural born citizen” clause in the Constitution. Nice going Unknown. So, now I see why you call yourself Unknown. You simply tell the world that the definition of a “natural born citizen,” an eligibility standard that the Framers inserted into the Constitution for the singular and all-powerful civil and military Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military, is Unknown. But I see that does not stop you, Jack Maskell, some law professors, and a handful of lower-court judges from inventing your own definition and feeding it to Congress and the American people. Indeed, you actually believe that ignorance grants you license to invent anything that you want as long as it suits your political purpose. I see that not only are you misinformed on this topic, but you also fail in the common sense department. The historical record demonstrates that there was no debate on the meaning of the “natural born citizen” clause in either the Constitutional Convention or any of the state conventions. Do you really think that, if the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not have any definition of the “natural born citizen” clause, there would not have been any debate on its meaning in either the Constitutional Convention or state conventions?

So, Unknown, thank you for conceding that you and your lot are or play ignorant as to the definition of the “natural born citizen” clause that the Framers used and that you simply want us to accept your invented and politically motivated definition of the clause.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

You said:

“Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
‘which Minor v Happersett (1875) told us was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth.’

Do you think if you keep repeating that enough times the text will retro-actively morph into what you say? As has been pointed out to you multiple times before, Minor has it in the other direction: A child born in a country to parents who were its citizens is a natural-born citizen, undoubtedly. You are trying to argue that *only* such a child is a natural-born citizen, but if you know of some U.S. authority implying that, why have you not cited it already?”

I see that you keep playing your “reverse” and “only” game, telling us that Minor did not give us a definition of the “natural born citizen” clause because it said that a child born in a country to citizen parents is a “natural-born citizen” (not the reverse) and it did not say “only” a child born in a country to citizen parents is a “natural-born citizen.” Your commentary on the Minor decision is incompetent at best and downright fraudulent at worst.

First, Minor’s definition of a “natural born citizen” is a paraphrase from Vattel who in Section 212 of The Law of Nations said: “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” There you have the silly order that you so pathetically seek. That Minor reversed the order of Vattel’s definition of the clause does not change what Vattel said or make what he said anything less than a definition of the clause. Vattel’s definition was all inclusive and all exclusive. Neither he nor any other person presented any other examples of a “natural born citizen.”

Second, Vattel’s definition of a “natural born citizen” was accepted by, among other historical and legal sources, both Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1830) and Justice Daniels in Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857). Minor, virtually the same Court (expect for Chief Justice Chase who had since passed away) that decided The Slaughterhouse Cases (1872) (in explaining the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment citizenship clause, stated that “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” “was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States”) would have known that.

Third, it is absurd to think that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court, in a case in which it had to decide whether Virginia Minor was a “citizen,” would just give us an example of who was a “natural born citizen” (and therefore without any doubt a “citizen”) rather than a definition of the clause.

Fourth, the Court told us how the common law defined a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen.” It is absurd to think that the common law just provided an example of what a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen” were rather than providing definitions.

Fifth, the Court said that persons who did not meet that common law definition of a “citizen” and “natural born citizen” were “aliens or foreigners.” Hence, there were no more examples to be had of what a “citizen” or “natural born citizen” was, the Court including who the “citizens” and “natural born citizen” were at common law and excluding those who were not. At common law, those who did not meet its definition of a “natural born citizen” were “alien or foreigner.” The Court would not have said that if it was only giving one example of who was a “citizen” or “natural born citizen,” for there would have been other possibilities of people still being able to show that they were “citizens” or “natural born citizens.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Sixth, the Court even raised on its own that “some authorities” go further and include as “citizens” under the Fourteenth Amendment children born in the United States to alien parents. This was as far as the Court was willing to go regarding other examples to which you allude. You falsely claim that the Court was referring to another type of “natural born citizen.” Too bad for you that the Court was not referring to a possible other “natural born citizen” of the United States, but rather only to a possible “citizen” of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment, which is the type of “citizen” (not a “natural born citizen) that the U.S. Supreme Court in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) held Wong (born in the United States to alien parents) to be.

So, in definitively defining a “natural born citizen” of the United States, Minor did not have to say as you maintain that a “natural born citizen” is a child born in a country to citizen parents rather than a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is a “natural born citizen,” or “only” a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth is a “natural born citizen.” The Court clearly defined a “natural born citizen” and told us who is included and excluded from that birth status. In doing so, the Court did no more than Emer de Vattel did when he defined a “natural born citizen” in Section 212 of The Law of Nations as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens” and the Framers who adopted that definition of the clause.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

mario wrote:
"The Court clearly defined a “natural born citizen” and told us who is included and excluded from that birth status."

Making that claim does not make it true. It is pathetically juvenile to claim with no supporting language that they "told us" who is included and Excluded. Their statement was in no way whatsoever a definition nor included any exclusionary language regarding nbc.

It was instead a categorization and nothing else. Those so described can be categorized under a particular term; "natural born citizen". Others, not described, can be ascribed to that category as well (born abroad to Americans [NA 1790]).

"In doing so, the Court did no more than Emer de Vattel did when he defined a “natural born citizen” in Section 212 of The Law of Nations as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens” and the Framers who adopted that definition of the clause."

That is so backwards and wrong that it's astonishing! Vattel defined nothing but he did describe those born in a country of parents who are its citizens. He described them as the native inhabitants or indigenous population. [les naturels ou les indigenes]

You make one false statement after another. The framers didn't use his definition since he gave none. The English transmutation came after the Constitution was written.
There was no "clause" to define since the words are not a clause but common English.
Is "one born a citizen" a clause? Is "born a natural citizen" another clause too? Is a definition mandatory to understand the meaning? Who gets to make it? No one because no one gets to redefine the meaning of common words, including lawyers.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

A modern day Vattel writes that "a child born under my roof to my wife, -born within and under my jurisdiction, in my natural born child."

What is that? A definition or a description? What is the child if not born under one's own roof? A stranger because of a hospital birth? Definitions raise those questions but descriptions do not.

Mario takes such a description, labels it a "definition" and then claims that in order to be one's natural born child the baby must not only be born of your wife but must be born on your property, -otherwise it is not yours but is an outsider and can't become your child except by the grace of law allowing you to adopt it.

The is the essence of the dogma he peddles in the name of a higher form of national allegiance which not only applies to Presidents but to all of the millions of American babies born over the border while their mother was traveling or residing or serving abroad.

By that warped definition, U.S. Ambassadors, military personnel and diplomats attached to foreign government units accompanied by their wives who give birth abroad, produce a child that is not what they are (Americans) but is instead a flat-out alien! -A stateless person but for the grace of Congress, with no right to be an American just like those that birthed it.

No inheritance of nationality? That is not the law of nature. By it, off-spring are a natural reproduction of what their parents are, born into their group. It's the law of natural membership.

They are new members of their family and new citizens of their nation. I've written volumes explaining that fact but most prefer to remain ignorant. obama--nation.com

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"It is also brain dead to insist that the 'citizen of the United States' class includes the 'natural born citizens' as a subset for the only reason that Article I provides that a 'citizen of the United States' for at least 7 or 9 years can be a Representative or Senator, respectively."

Of course that's not "the only reason". That reason is sufficient to demolish your stupid notion that an Article II "Natural Born Citizen" is *not* a "Citizen of the United States", but it sure ain't the only reason.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"[...] there simply is nothing in Article I to suggest that 'natural born citizens,' as properly defined under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution (Minor) and as therefore belonging within their own exclusive class, are excluded from being eligible for Congress. Eligibility requirements for political office are minimums."

Article I Section 2 Clause 2 begins, "No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States". A person who is not a citizen of the United States cannot be seven years a citizen of the United States. Thus *if* article II Natural Born Citizens are *not* Citizens of the Untied States, then Article I excludes them from being Representatives.

Mr Apuzzo, you are correct that nothing in Article I suggests that natural-born citizens are excluded from serving in Congress. The brain-dead part is the premise of that *if*, and it is all yours. *You* put forth the ludicrous whack-job notion than an Article II Natural Born Citizen is *not* a Citizen of the United States.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"I have already addressed this argument many times."

I'm happy to acknowledge that you've written about it a whole bunch. I want to emphasize that you actually took the position that a Constitutional "Natural Born Citizen" is *not* a "Citizen of the United States". When I tell people that you claim Article II natural-born citizen are not citizens of the United States, they tend to think that I'm deliberately misreading you to put you on such an astonishingly stupid position.

Or did I misread you? If so, please clarify. I have you on the position that any and all Article II Natural Born Citizens are *not* Citizens of the United States. Is that actually what you hold?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"So, you concede that neither you nor Jack Maskell know of any definition of a 'natural born citizen' that the Framers relied upon when they inserted the 'natural born citizen' clause in the Constitution. Nice going Unknown."

Yeah, well, sure, there's this thing, that Jack Maskell and I do, that sometimes results in letting people like you make points like that. Yes, I concede: I cannot cite the Founders, Framers, and ratifiers of the Constitution clearly espousing a definition of "Natural Born Citizen" as the term is used in the eligibility clause of Article II.

Perhaps my case would look stronger were I to concede nothing and take you on lie for lie. To harsh? How about prevarication for prevarication? There's no shortage of Founder/Framer quotes I could pull out of context and spin, were I willing to descend.

Mr. Apuzzo, poor as you know me to be at net-debate skills such as spelling, grammar, and proof-reading, you have no chance of baiting me down to your level. No chance. You think you can score a point by saying I "concede" that I don't know a definition that the Framers relied upon? Well look above in this very thread: I was already honestly and accurately explaining what little we have from the time of the Founders and Framers.

Congrats on getting me to "concede". Once again you caught me telling the truth. I intend to go right on doing so, despite your efforts.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

A good way to get things wrong is to get the context wrong. The context of citizenship in 1790 was wholly a matter of State citizenship. There was no such thing as federal citizenship since there was no federal land on which a child could be born and granted citizenship.

Residents could only be U.S. citizens via their State citizenship.

All citizens were State citizens. I read that 4 States granted citizenship to native-born children of their immigrants, with Virginia being one of them.

The other States only recognized the children of citizens as being citizens (aside from those natural-ized into being new natural State citizens).

Those natural-ized citizens constituted 2% of the population. So, when the framers wrote about "citizens of the United States" they were referring to the 98% plus the 2%.
All (educated male) citizens could be elected to Congress, including native-born alien-fathered State citizens, but only those born as children of citizens could serve as President.

States were required by the Constitution to recognize the citizenship of people from other States, including the alien-born, even though they didn't recognize such persons as citizens if born within their own State.

Within States that didn't, all citizens were either children of State citizens or were the naturalized foreigners and their wife and children.
They had no native-born alien-fathered citizens-at-birth. Their laws did not allow "sons of the soil" citizenship, -nor did the new national government.

When the federal government acquired the D.C. and immigrants gave birth within its boundaries, their child was an alien also and could not grow up to serve in Congress unless naturalized. Also the presidency was permanently off-limits to them just as it is for Barry Obummer.

MichaelN said...

The US Constitution distinguishes between "citizen of the United States" and "natural born Citizen".

They are different entities when it comes to who may or may not be eligible for government representative or for the office of POTUS.

A "citizen of the United States" may or may not be a "natural born Citizen", whereas the latter must be "citizen of the United States".

A person born in the United States per 14th Amendment is a "citizen of the United States", not necessarily a "natural born Citizen".

So we have some people who may be born "citizens of the United States", and some others who may also be born "citizens of the United States" but with an extra quality which makes them eligible for the office of POTUS.

The SCOTUS, in majority opinion (Minor v Happersett), has made it clear that nowhere in the US Constitution is there to be found a definition of a "natural born Citizen",
ergo: THE 14TH AMENDMENT DOES NOT DEFINE A "natural born Citizen".

The SCOTUS, in the very same case, with majority opinion defined a "natural born Citizen" as one born in the land of which the parents were it's citizens, as DISTINCT from aliens and foreigners.

A subsequent sitting of SCOTUS (Wong Kim Ark case), in MAJORITY opinion cited to this definition and also to the distinction, favorably and without opposition; further in this MAJORITY SCOTUS opinion, the court recognized TWO TYPES of born citizens of the US, when Chief Justice Horace Gray favorably cited Binney's commentary, which made a clear distinction between the TWO TYPES of born US citizens, where it was said that "the child of an alien, if born in the land, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen".

In the face of these majority SCOTUS opinions, Wong Kim Ark, was recognized as a "citizen of the United States" under the US Constitution's 14th Amendment, which NOWHERE defines who a "natural born Citizen" shall be.

The ONLY possible difference between the TWO TYPES of born US citizens, can be the citizen or non-citizen status of the PARENTS, as the Wong Kim Ark majority opinion pointed out when it cited favorably recognizing Binney's distinction between the two types of PARENTS' status.

As we can see from the Wong Kim Ark MAJORITY opinion of the SCOTUS, born in the land was not enough to make Wong a "natural born Citizen" of the US, yet it was enough to make Wong a BORN "citizen of the United States".

MichaelN said...

Stranger said...
a.r.nash writes:

"A good way to get things wrong is to get the context wrong."
-------------------------
Here's the right context.

Article II eligibility for POTUS was NOT a citizenship eligibility clause.

It was aimed at those who were ALREADY born US citizens.

The responsibility and imperative on the part of the Framers was for the office of POTUS to be held by only those with the least possible foreign ties.

Eligibility for the office of POTUS, was different to eligibility for citizenship and different (in part) to eligibility for representatives in government.

Eligibility for representatives other than POTUS was "citizen of the United States", either native-born or naturalized alien-born.

Eligibility for POTUS was only for a "citizen of the United States" who ADDITIONALLY was natural born.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

There is no such thing as being "natural born" except in contradistinction to birth by Caesarian section or birth to a surrogate mother.

The word "natural" modifies the word "citizen", -NOT the word "born".
There are two types of born citizens; those born of citizens and those born of aliens but granted citizenship at birth.
There are two types of natural citizens; those born of citizens and those re-born as U.S.citizens via natural-ization.
By the American fiction of law inherited from Britain, the doctrine of citizenship equality renders all natural-ized citizens as new natural citizens, -equal in every regard, -except one: they were not born as natural citizens but instead were made into natural citizens by process, study, and the Oath of Allegiance & Renunciation.

By a fundamental American doctrine all citizens are natural citizens. That equality is the foundational philosophy of our nation.
The Supreme Court has slapped down nearly a century of Congressional usurpation of the citizenship rights of the natural-ized. [the Bancroft treaties]
They are now finally recognized as identical to those born as natural citizens except regarding the nature of their birth.
Congress had no constitutional authority over the citizenship of either, -only in the acquisition of it if born of non-American parents.

American parents produce American children aside from all law. That is why they are born as natural citizens and not legal citizens.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"A person born in the United States per 14th Amendment is a "citizen of the United States", not necessarily a "natural born Citizen"."

"All persons born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are citizens of the United States and the State in which they reside."

Is that written as and intended to be a "definition"? Does it provide the definitive definition of who a citizen of the United States is? No. Because it is not a definition but a statement of national law, -not natural law.

It avoids even touching on the matter of what principles are involved, how they operate, and on whom they operate. It is a mindless statement intended to stop all conversation on the subject. And it almost succeeded.

Just as Vattel's observations were not written as nor intended to be taken as a definitive definition but merely an observation of how the native-born children of natives are labeled (les naturels ou les indigenes). It was not an authoritatively issued rule regarding citizenship but simply and explanation of who are the typical natural members of a nation or country.

Binney wrote: "the child of an alien, if born in the land, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen".

Very flatulent words. "natural born child" is in contradistinction to either an unnatural born child or an adopted child. Either way, he was linguistically way off base.

He should have written: "the child of an alien...is as much a citizen as the child born of citizens", -or..."as the natural citizen (born of citizens).

No one has any authority to declare that the Supreme Court in Minor established a "definition" of anything because they did no such thing. Only 4th graders' logic is needed to see that fact. Even they know what a real definition is.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Here's some more context:

1. Alien vs. Citizen
2. Alien-born vs Citizen-born
3. Legal citizen vs natural citizen
4. Native-born person vs Natural born citizen
5. Legal immigrant vs illegal immigrant

6. Domiciled Immigrant vs. transient/guest/tourist/invader/diplomat/indigenous native

7. The jurisdiction of Territorial boundaries (within) vs. the jurisdiction of national authority (under, subject to)

8. State citizen vs Federal citizen
9. American citizen vs American National
10. Citizenship via fathers vs citizenship via mothers
etc., etc.
Confusion abounds, and clarity isn't getting any closer,...except at my blog of course; obama--nation.com

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You said:

“I'm happy to acknowledge that you've written about it a whole bunch. I want to emphasize that you actually took the position that a Constitutional ‘Natural Born Citizen’ is *not* a ‘Citizen of the United States’. When I tell people that you claim Article II natural-born citizen are not citizens of the United States, they tend to think that I'm deliberately misreading you to put you on such an astonishingly stupid position.

Or did I misread you? If so, please clarify. I have you on the position that any and all Article II Natural Born Citizens are *not* Citizens of the United States. Is that actually what you hold?”

***

A “citizen” of the United States may or may not be a “natural born citizen” of the United States. See Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. Hence, not all “citizens” of the United States are “natural born citizens” of the United States.

All “natural born citizens” of the United States are “citizens” of the United States. See Article I, Section 2 and 3.

Of all the “citizens” of the United States, under constitutional common law, only those who were born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” are “natural born citizens” of the United States. See Minor v. Happersett (1785). Of those who are not “natural born citizens” of the United States, at common law they are “aliens or foreigners” (Minor), but under positive law all are just “citizens” of the United States. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). The latter include “citizens” of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaties, none of whom are “natural born citizens” of the United States, for they do not satisfy the constitutional common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

So, under constitutional common law, a child who is born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” is not only a “citizen” of the United States, but also a “natural born citizen” of the United States. Minor. Any other “citizens” of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaties are just “citizens” of the United States and not “natural born citizens” of the United States. Wong Kim Ark.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

In the context of 1789 there was no such thing as a natural born citizen of the United States since that would be in contradistinction to a natural born citizen of some other nation.

Natural citizens were those born of State citizens; a natural born Virginian, a natural born Pennsylvanian, etc. All of the framers, with a few exceptions like Hamilton, were born of State citizens and thus were natural born citizens as required by the Constitution.
It doesn't require that the President be a natural born citizen of the United States since States remained sovereign.

It's erroneous to assert the imaginary idea of a grandfather clause for the founders & framers. Rather, the eligibility clause exceptions applied first to them and secondly to naturalized citizens. That makes perfect sense since they constituted about 98% of the men of the new nation.
Keep in mind that State citizenship was supreme since no federal government yet existed, and even after it did, citizenship, immigration, and naturalization remained under the purview of the States.
All Congress had the authority to do was to write a uniform rule so all of the States were on the same page when it came to allowing immigrants to become State citizens.

read more at obama--nation.com

MichaelN said...

Stranger said...
a.r.nash writes:
"There is no such thing as being "natural born" except in contradistinction to birth by Caesarian section or birth to a surrogate mother.

The word "natural" modifies the word "citizen", -NOT the word "born". "
--------------------------------
Reply:
In CONTEXT with the Framers' imperative to exclude as far as possible any foreign ties, the US Constitution, Article II eligibility requirement for the office of POTUS was for a "natural born Citizen", which was/is one who has the highest possible allegiance to the US.

You have already been corrected a multitude of times, where you were shown that BOTH place of birth AND citizenship status of parents were and are ESSENTIAL qualities in the make-up of a USC Article II "natural born Citizen".

No amount of your ad nauseam ranting and raving will ever change this FACT.

A USC Article II "natural born Citizen" is one who is BOTH native-born in the US (i.e. a born US citizen) and to parents who are both citizens of the US. (i.e. natural)

U.S. Supreme Court
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 21 Wall. 162 162 (1874)

" At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also.

These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."


Whatever might or might not make a 'natural born citizen' elsewhere and/or to others outside of the US Constitutional context is IRRELEVANT.


Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"A 'citizen' of the United States may or may not be a 'natural born citizen' of the United States. See Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. Hence, not all 'citizens' of the United States are 'natural born citizens' of the United States.

All 'natural born citizens' of the United States are 'citizens' of the United States. See Article I, Section 2 and 3."

Progress! Mr. Apuzzo previous claimed:
"A 'natural born citizen' is not a 'citizen of the United States' and a 'citizen of the United States' is not a 'natural born citizen'". [This thread, 13 Aug 2013]

He even wrote, addressing me:
"But the absurdity is all yours, reading a 'citizen of the United States' to include as a subset the 'natural born Citizens.'" [18 Aug 2013]

Indeed I do hold that the people Article II calls "natural born Citizens" are a (proper) subset of the citizens of the United States. Near as I can tell, Mr. Apuzzo now agrees, except I'm not clear on why he was quotation marks exactly where he does.

Mr. Apuzzo, I assume you do understand that "All X is Y" is equivalent to "Y includes as a subset X".


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Of all the 'citizens' of the United States, under constitutional common law, only those who were born in the country to parents who were its 'citizens' are 'natural born citizens' of the United States. See Minor v. Happersett (1785)."

I have seen Minor v. Happersett, and contrary to what you write, Mr. Apuzzo, it does *not* say *only* those. Of course you know that but write such things anyway.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...


Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

Your simplistic logic is just that and does not address the complexity of the issue at hand. You also get no credit for simply not understanding the depth of my argument.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that a person who had the status of a “Citizen of the United States” as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution was eligible to be President. It adds that for anyone born after the adoption, no person except a “natural born Citizen” was so eligible. Note that the Framers for the pre-adoption period did not say that a “naturalized Citizen of the United States” could be President. Rather, regardless of the meaning of “naturalization,” i.e., whether it could occur only after birth or even at birth, they said a “Citizen of the United States.”

That constitutional scheme tells us that one may be a “Citizen of the United States,” but not necessarily a “natural born Citizen.” It tells us that the Framers had a very specific definition of the “natural born citizen” clause, a fact supported by the knowledge that there was no debate in either the Constitutional Convention or state ratifying conventions on the meaning of the clause. Minor and Wong Kim Ark both tell us that that definition came from common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar which provided that a “natural born citizen” was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. This scheme, which included the clause “natural born citizen” and not “born citizen,” also tells us that even if one is as specifically defined, not by the same constitutional common law but by some positive law that does not have both the intent and the authority to amend the original definition of the clause, a “citizen of the United States” at birth and therefore not needing naturalization after birth, but not satisfying that original binding constitutional common law definition, one still is not a “natural born Citizen.” So, assuming there is a case wherein one is a “Citizen of the United States,” but not a “natural born Citizen,” which there must be given what the Framers specifically wrote (“natural born citizen” and not just “born citizen”) and what the “natural born citizen” clause means, it is an incorrect statement to say that universally a “natural born Citizen” is a “Citizen of the United States,” when there exist cases in which the latter does not qualify as a “natural born Citizen.”

So, a “natural born citizen,” as is a “citizen of the United States,” is in all cases a “citizen” of the United States, with a “citizen” meaning nothing more than a member of the United States. A “natural born citizen” is not a “citizen of the United States” when the latter membership is defined by some positive law such as the Fourteenth Amendment, Act of Congress, or treaty which gives a definition to that status that does not equate with the constitutional common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

The converse is easier to understand. Not all “citizens” of the United States are “natural born citizens” of the United States. Those who obtained the status of “citizen” by being born in the United States to “citizen” parents are not only “citizens” like their parents, but also “natural born citizens.” Those who obtained the status of “citizen,” not by satisfying the constitutional common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” which makes them without any doubt “citizens,” but by only satisfying some other citizenship definition provided by some positive law like the Fourteenth Amendment, Act of Congress, or treaty, which calls that status a “citizen of the United States,” are not “natural born citizens.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

With the “citizens’ making the Constitution, the only way to affect the “citizen” status of a “natural born citizen” is by Constitutional Amendment. Also note that Congress, having in matters of citizenship only the power to make uniform the laws of naturalization, has no power to affect the “citizen” status of a “natural born citizen.” But not being “natural born citizens,” Congress can always change the “citizen” status of a “citizen of the United States” created by its own positive naturalization laws.

You insist that Minor did not provide an inclusive and exclusive definition of a “natural born citizen.” As I have informed you numerous times, Minor did not have to say “only” as you demand. It said that at common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar all people who were born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of their birth were undoubtedly not only “citizens” themselves like their parents, but also “natural born citizens” and that all those who were not so born were “aliens or foreigners.” That is, indeed, language of inclusion and exclusion. That says it all and there is no need for the court to say that “only” children born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” are “natural born citizens.” A little reading comprehension informs that is what the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court actually said.

You are free to provide your unbiased and biased thoughts on these points.

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