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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

We have proof that the English common law was not incorporated into the Constitution to provide the rules of decision on national matters from Article I, Section 8, Clause 10 which gave Congress power “[t]o define and punish . . . Offenses against the Law of Nations.” Congress was to define and punish national offenses. Those national offenses were to be found in the law of nations and not in the English common law. There is no mention of the English common law. Proof that American national common law was used to define a natural born citizen rather than the English common law is provided by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett which explained in 1875:

“The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.”

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875).

If the English common law defined our national citizenship, the Court would not have included citizen parents in its definition of a natural born citizen, for the English common law did not require citizen parents. Additionally, the Court would not have said that “there have been doubts” whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was a citizen, for under the English common law jus soli rule, there was no doubt that a child born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance was an English natural-born subject. Finally, the Court would have at least once cited and quoted the English common law in a decision in which it engaged in a thorough and thoughtful analysis of American citizenship, from the Founding to the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment. But there is not even a hint of the English common law throughout the Court’s decision.

Hence, the “common-law” to which Minor referred was American national common law and that common law defined a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The Court also told us that the Framers looked to that common law when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. Hence, the correct definition of an Article II natural born citizen comes from that American national common law and not the English common law and is therefore defined as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

On the other hand, U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) did look to the English common law as an aid for interpreting the Fourteenth Amendment which defines a “citizen of the United States,” not to be conflated and confounded with an Article II “natural born citizen.” Wong was born in the United States, but it was to alien parents. Hence, he could not be a natural born citizen. But, as Minor had suggested, maybe he could be a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment. Wong Kim Ark held that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents who were neither foreign diplomats nor military invaders was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court did not rely on the common law which Minor said defined a natural born citizen, for the Court only had to decide whether Wong was a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, not a natural born citizen under that American national common law.

So today, under Minor, a natural born citizen is still a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This definition exists under constitutional national common law. This definition is part of the supreme law of the land and can be changed only by duly ratified constitutional amendment or by some other U.S. Supreme Court decision.

ajtelles said...

"what makes you think ... investigate and expose the conspiracy"...

Mario,
Andrew McCarthy's question below about impeachment of BHObama, "what makes you think ... scrupulous lawyer to investigate and expose the conspiracy," is applicable in a constitutional sense to why ALL defenders of Article II Section 1 Clause 5 since 2008 are not successful in exposing the "conspiracy" to maintain the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth of the Obama birth narrative.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Archive - National Review Online June 24, 2014
>> http://www.nationalreview.com/author/andrew-c-mccarthy

"No Special Counsel for the IRS Scandal—Just Impeach the Corrupt Officials

"Congress doesn’t have prosecutorial power, but it can act to remove those responsible.

"For all my friends who continue to call for a “special counsel” — meaning an independent prosecutor — for the IRS scandal, I have one simple question:

"If you believe, as I do, that President Barack Obama and Attorney General Eric Holder are corruptly covering up the conspiracy by the executive branch and congressional Democrats to violate the constitutional rights of conservative groups, what makes you think they would appoint a scrupulous lawyer to investigate and expose the conspiracy?

"The question answers itself, so much so that some members of Congress, in their understandable outrage and frustration, are proposing unconstitutional solutions to the Obama administration’s unconstitutional lawlessness. Exhibit A: Senator Pat Roberts (R., Okla.), ... .

"Senator Roberts says:
"At this point, only a Congressionally appointed and separately funded special counsel, with full subpoena power, can get to the bottom of this matter. Congress has longstanding and broad authority to both investigate allegations of wrongdoing within the federal government and to delegate its investigatory powers to other entities. It’s time to put this authority into action.

"The italics are mine, in order to highlight the problem. Yes, Congress has investigative authority in connection with its important oversight function — i.e., overseeing the activities of executive-branch agencies such as the IRS that Congress establishes and underwrites with taxpayer funds. What Congress does not have, however, is prosecutorial authority.

[...]

"Nor do we want lawmakers to have such powers. As I recount in my new book on presidential lawlessness, Faithless Execution, “The Framers saw the separation of the power to prosecute from the power to legislate as essential to preserving individual liberty.” [....]

"Judge Kavanaugh stressed James Madison’s admonition, during the debates over the Constitution, that “the accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.” It is as true today as it was in 1787.

[...]

So, Republicans: Impeach them now, worry about prosecuting them later...and please stop whining as if you are powerless to do anything.

— Andrew C. McCarthy is a policy fellow at the National Review Institute. His latest book, Faithless Execution: Building the Political Case for Obama’s Impeachment, was released by Encounter Books on June 3.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Mario, the historical record is definitely on your side, as you have fully expounded here on your blog since December 20, 2008, but the Obama birth narrative MUST be maintained to protect BHObama, the transformer leader and 2000s-Myth-Maker-in-Chief.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

Excellent Exposition & Article V...

Mario, your 3 part tutorial on is so coherent in defining the difference between state use of English common law and federal use in 1787 of American common law and how it was informed by the law of nations before the first naturalization act in 1790.

Sure, Dr. Conspiracy may believe that English common law informed state law and also informed the federal law, specifically Article II Section 1 Clause 5, but where are the 1700s American sources, such as original birther John Jay, who will add credence to the Obama-birther 2000s belief, the 2000s implication, the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth of ONLY "one-U.S.-citizen-parent"?

And where are the naturalization act of 1790 to the immigration and nationality act of 1952 adding credence? Where are the congressional acts or ScotUS decisions today in 2014 that add credence to the Obama birth narrative that only "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" was implied in the underlining of the word "born" in "natural born Citizen"which by natural law obviously demands TWO U.S. citizen parents, not ONE?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

>> "So today, under Minor,
>> a natural born citizen is
>> still a child born in a country
>> to parents who were its citizens
>> at the time of the child’s birth.

>> "This definition exists under constitutional national common law.
>> This definition is part of the supreme law of the land
>> and can be changed only by duly ratified constitutional amendment
>> or by some other U.S. Supreme Court decision."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Mario, the only words that I would rephrase is the last few words, specifically "... supreme law ... changed ... U.S. Supreme Court decision."

>> "This definition
>> is part of
>> the supreme law of the land
>> and can be changed
>> only by duly ratified
>> constitutional amendment
>> or by some other U.S. Supreme Court decision."


Allowing for your accurate previous clarification about the use of the word "change" and how the ScotUS can "change" a constitutional amendment or an Article and it's meaning, such as the meaning of "natural born Citizen" in Article II for example, which the 1868 court did not do in the 14th Amendment, from my layman's perch here in El Paso, Texas, since the ScotUS can NOT change a thing in the constitution or an act of congress, whether anything indicative of positive law or indicative of natural law, a preferred word might be "interpret," or maybe "reinterpret," or some words similar which do not imply a "change" and denial of natural law, i.e., birth, but can imply a "change" of positive law, i.e., birth on U.S. soil OR birth on foreign soil, AND also a "change" of TWO positive law "citizen" parents to ONE positive law "citizen" parent.

ajtelles said...

Excellent Exposition & Article V...

2/

THAT possibility of a "change," a decision by reinterpretation by the ScotUS before a law is passed, as Chief Justice John "call it a tax" Roberts demonstrated when he helped Barack "it's right there, we want single-payer health care" Obama pass Obama-care, THAT is why we need an Article V "... States ... Convention for proposing Amendments" amendment to put a positive law amendment hedge around the 1700s common law original intent and the 1700s natural law original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" as being "STILL" in 2000s America "... still a child being born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth."

As you wrote in the last sentence of part 3 -

>> "So today, under Minor,
>>a natural born citizen
>> is still
>> a child born in a country
>> to parents who were its citizens
>> at the time of the child’s birth."

Since the ScotUS can not "change" but the court CAN "reinterpret" the original intent and original genesis meaning as understood by my new best friend John Jay who coined the PotUS eligibility words "natural born Citizen" with the 1700s common law meaning, the 1700 original public meaning, the 1700s "unity of citizenship and allegiance" meaning that birth demands being by the physical union ONLY on the soil of the U.S. "citizen" parents and ONLY of TWO "citizen" parents and NOT one "citizen" parent, an Article V "... States ... Convention for proposing Amendments" is definitely a "hedge" idea whose time has come—again., as in 1787.

As the original intent for inserting Article V in the 1787 Constitution is "still" relevant in 2014, it is time for "WE the Posterity" of the 1787 "WE the People," the 1787 original birthers, the original Founders, Framers and Ratifiers to answer the call to arms, political and constitutiona Article V arms, to come to the defense of their country.

One way to "come to the defense" is to take control of the language with 2000s original intent.

Take control of the language,
to take control of the conversation,
to take control of the debate,
to take control of and redirect the progressive "lean forward" direction,
to take control of individualist liberty against collectivist tyranny,
to take control against ALL enemies, foreign OR domestic.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

Excellent Exposition & Article V #2...

Mario,

I just read for the 5th time your June 24, 2014 at 8:54 PM excellent exposition in response to Dr. Conspiracy about English common law and American common law, and how, before the first naturalization act of 1790, the federal government used the law of nations to inform the 1787 common law, the public meaning presuppositions implicit in "natural born Citizen' in Article II, that the original intent was that the original genesis of a U.S. "citizen" child was to ONLY be birth in the U.S. (also implying jurisdiction) to TWO U.S. "citizen' parents.

Mario, my observation today is about what you worte in the penultimate paragraph, partially quoted below.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

>> "Wong was born in the United States, but it was to alien parents.
>> Hence, he could not be a natural born citizen.

>> "But, as Minor had suggested,
>> maybe he could be a “citizen of the United States”
>> under the Fourteenth Amendment.

>> "Wong Kim Ark held that a child born in the United States
>> to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents
>> who were neither foreign diplomats nor military invaders
>> was a “citizen of the United States”
>> from the moment of birth
>> by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment."


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

My observation is about the child who is born in the U.S. to alien parents and so, because the ScotUS said so, the child is a U.S. "citizen" although, correctly so, not a U.S. "natural born Citizen."

My observation naturally leads an original intent constitutionalist to the sensible conclusion that the Article V provision that allows the bi-cameral congress AND the several states legislatures to convene to propose amendments is the best constitutional way to correct the absurdity of the ScotUS decision in U.S. v Wong Kim Ark and it's detrimental effects on U.S. sovereignty that allows children born in the U.S. to be considered "citizens" even when the alien parents are NOT citizens and are simply "permently domiciled and resident" in the U.S.

THAT is why we need an Article V constitutional amendment to permanently turn off the green light and put up a permanent red light to the "break and enter" the U.S. and "plop and drop" an anchor baby surge since the 1960s that is only helping the progressive Democrats and Republicans to "transform" America. We need a hedge amendment that will identify ONLY a child born in the U.S. to at least ONE U.S. citizen parent to be a "citizen" child. It was absurd for the Wong Kim Ark court to declare that the 14th Amendment implied, because, as you wrote, "... as Minor had suggested" that a child born on U.S. soil might be considered a U.S. "citizen" even though BOTH parents are NOT U.S. "citizens."

How did the court justify getting ONE U.S. "citizen" from TWO alien "citizen" parents?
The court did NOT justify how to get a citizen from non-citizens.

THAT is why we need an Article V convention of states to propose an amendment to correct the absurdity of the U.S. v Wong Kim Ark Supreme Court decision that has been converted into a flood of aliens into America under the authorigy of the 14th Amendment.

Mario, with a Article V convention of states to propose amendments, the state legislatures can put a stop to the ScotUS and Congress from playing around with who is a "citizen" and to clarify who is a "natural born Citizen" for ourselves and for our posterity.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

The Obots, which includes but is not limited to Dr. Conspiracy, Slartibartfast, and Bryan Gene Olson (Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon), have only two answers to any question regarding the meaning of a natural born citizen: provide a false answer and when that does not work, provide no answer at all.

Unknown said...

For those out there who hang their hat on the English Common Law definition of natural born subject to define natural born citizen, here's a shocker for you.

Blackstone was wrong.

He said "The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such."
They may have been, generally speaking, natural born subjects, the same as any other naturalized subject is considered a natural born subject.

Even though Calvin was considered an English subject because he was born within the King's dominions, he was considered naturalized by birth since his parents were considered aliens in England.

"First, The King hath the Crown of England by Birthright, being naturally procreated of the Blood Royal of this Realm: Secondly, Calvin the Plaintiff naturalized by Procreation and Birthright, since the Descent of the Crown of England:..."
The reports of Sir Edward Coke Kt. In English (1727)

"...yet was it resolved, That all those that were born under one natural Obedience, while the Realms were united under one Soveraign, should remain natural-born Subjects, and no Aliens; for that Naturalization due and vested by Birth right, cannot by any Separation of the Crowns afterward be taken away: nor he that was by Judgment of Law a natural Subject at the Time of his Birth, become an Alien by such a Matter ex post facto. "
The reports of Sir Edward Coke Kt. In English (1727)

So, Calvin was a natural born subject by birthright naturalization under common law.


The children of aliens were not actual Common Law natural born subjects under the definition given:
"“All those are natural born Subjects whose Parents, at the Time their Birth, were under the actual obedience of our King, and whose Place of Birth was within his Dominions.”

In Coke's report on Calvin's case ;
"2. There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances; the first is, ligeantia naturalis, absoluta pura, et indefinite, and this originally is due by nature and birth-right, and is called alta ligeantia, and he that oweth this is called subditus natus."
This is actual ligeance or obedience. The other three types of ligeance are acquired or by law.

Other authorities than Blackstone appear to have it right -

"For it is not much to make a subject naturalized by the law of England: it should suffice, either place or parents. If he be born in England it is no matter though his parents be Spaniards, or what you will: on the other side, if he be born of English parents it skilleth not though he be born in Spain, or in any other place of the world. In such sort doth the law of England open her lap to receive in people to be naturalized; which indeed sheweth the wisdom and excellent composition of our law."
Francis Bacon (1730)

" Finally there are states, as for instance England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalizes the children of a foreigner "
The Law of Nations: Or, Principles of the Law of Nature, Emer de Vattel, ‎Joseph Chitty - 1844

If the writers of the constitution were following English common law when they came up with the phrase "natural born citizen", then natural born citizen means one who is born in the country of citizen parents, that is, by nature (descent) and birth-right (place of birth).

ajtelles said...

Something in Common...

Mario, after reading your June 24, 2014 at 8:54 PM 3 part tutorial, and now in reading the quotes that Wilted Rose adduced from Coke, Blackstone, de Vattel, I noticed something that I have noticed before in reading what you have written here on your blog.

What do you have in common with Coke, Blackstone, and de Vattel, and other BIG Thinkers of history?

From the Online Library of Liberty
>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/people

_Sir Edward Coke,
>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/people/sir-edward-coke

_Sir William Blackstone
>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/people/sir-william-blackstone

_Emer de Vattel
>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/people/emer-de-vattel

I'll put it this way.

Mario, you are writing about an important topic, and expounding with such coherency, about a topic that has national security implications for our generation today in the first quarter of the 21st century and for OUR posterity from generation to generation.

No, that language is not excessive, it is spot on.

Mario, if you do not write a book from which historians in the future will quote about the difference between a "citizen" and an Article II "natural born Citizen", somebody else will write a book and in their book THEY will quote what YOU have written here on your Puzo1 blog.

Quotability is what you have in common with Coke, Blackstone and de Vattel and other BIG Thinkers of history who have written on citizenship and national security matters.

I even have a tentative title for your book, "Natural Born Citizen: The Unity of Citizenship and Allegiance" or something like that.

Have you thought about writing a book about the natural born citizen topic?
PS.

For Obama-birthers who are disrespectful to Mario, your Obama-birther negativity is irrelevant, and your disrespectful words will only be relevant to future historians as examples of the nonsesnse associated with the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth, the Obama birth narrative that ONLY "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" was sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be PotUS, for the silly reason that just because a child is born ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen, THAT is the 1700s meaning of a natural born citizen, and NOT the the common sense natural law original genesis meaning of birth to only TWO U.S. citizen parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

For sure, in our relative world one can better understand the meaning of a word by understanding its opposite. This fundamental rule of interpretation can be applied to understanding the meaning of a natural born citizen. Allow me to explain.

There are many who do not understand what “natural born” means as it is used in “natural born citizen.” After all, all births are eventually necessarily natural, so why do we even need the qualifier natural? These persons therefore treat the word “natural” as mere surplusage and unnecessary, replacing it with simply a litmus test of time which for them is when someone is "born." Among these persons we find Jack Maskell, who has put forth a thesis that all born citizens, persons who by whatever means become citizens at the time of their birth, are natural born citizens. Basically, Maskell maintains that the two are equivalent simply because they both become citizens at the time of birth. Maskell does not give any relevance to how those citizens become citizens at the time of birth. I have maintained that Maskell’s thesis has no basis in history or law because not only does it write out of the natural born citizen clause the qualifier “natural,” but it also does not come to grips with the one and only definition of a natural born citizen that has ever been recognized in American history and jurisprudence which is a child born in a country to parents who are its citizens. Maskell’s thesis cannot be correct, for it gives us various definitions of a natural born citizen. It cannot be correct, for he makes no attempt to tell us by what means or mechanism the Framers saw one becoming a born citizen which made him or her a natural born citizen. It cannot be correct, for he does no more than conflate and confound a born citizen with a natural born citizen. It cannot be correct for he simply substitutes the element of time and no more for the means or mechanism by which the Framers saw a natural born citizen coming into being.

The Framers gave us in Article II, Clause 5, Section 1 “natural born citizen” and “citizen of the United States.” Since they juxtaposed “natural born citizen” with “citizen,” this means that not all citizens can be natural born citizens. This signifies that natural born citizen can only mean one very specific thing which set is aside from other citizens. This means that natural born must have been used the same as its opposite, the phrase natural death, would have been used in history, which is not a death by law (a law under proper circumstances could consider persons dead when in fact they were not dead in nature), but rather a death by nature; hence natural born was not born by law (considered or deemed born by law), but rather born by nature (born by and only by nature). It follows a fortiori that just as there can only be one and only one death by nature (one is truly dead only if dead in nature and no other way), there could be only one and only one natural born citizen (one is truly a natural born citizen only if so born in nature). Given how the Framers juxtaposed citizens and natural born citizens, for them the only citizen that existed by nature was a natural born citizen and there could not be any other just like there could be only one natural death regardless of how one arrives to it (by law, by presumption, some required medical definition, etc). And given the reality of nations, with their various allegiances,

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

populating the world, the only means or mechanism by which one could be a natural born citizen of any one specific nation and be in allegiance only to that one nation was for one to be born to citizen parents in the country of which they were both members, or otherwise stated, a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. All the rest of the citizens, whether taking on that status at birth or after birth, were citizens by law (by statute or the common law), promulgated one way or another (by the King, Parliament, Congress, or a court). This is confirmed by ancient English common and statutory law, the law of nations, founding-era American common law, early naturalization Acts of Congress, and subsequent U.S. Supreme Court decisions such as The Venus, Inglis, Shanks, Dred Scott, The Slaughterhouse Cases, Minor, and Wong Kim Ark.
Again, Maskell has conflated and confounded a legal born citizen with a natural born citizen. What he has done is no different from one conflating and confounding one being considered or deemed dead by law and not by nature, with one really and truly being dead by nature.

I will provide evidence and more commentary on understanding “natural born” by understanding “natural death” in later comments.

ajtelles said...

In other words- Immutable Opposites...

Mario, using your exposition about "opposites" to introduce a related thought, here is my way of expressing a statement that is irrefutable about immutable natural law that is the original genesis of the original intent of positive law that could inform Jack Maskell and clear thinking Obama-birthers.

It's not intended to be definitive, but simply food for thought about why my new best friend John Jay, who knew the common law nomenclature of the 1700s, why he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with obvious 1700s "unity of citizenship and allegiance" original genesis original intent.

The repitition of the opposites in the "table-talk conversation" below is a mnemonic device, for emphasis.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

It is obvious that two persons is the natural law number required to generate a birth and NO positive law can change that natural law.

Right?

In the law of nature, ONLY the union of TWO can produce ONE.

Right?

THAT natural law is immutable.

An immutable natural law is the original genesis of the original intent of positive law that is immutable.

Positive law that is immutable?

Yes.

Two singular citizenship U.S. positive law “citizen” parents can ONLY produce a singular citizenship U.S. positive law “citizen” child.

Right?

Two singular citizenship U.S. positive law “citizen” parents can NOT produce a dual citizenship positive law “citizen” child.

Right?

Two dual citizenship positive law "citizen" parents can ONLY produce a dual citizenship positive law "citizen" child.

Right?

Two dual citizenship positive law “citizen” parents can NOT produce a singular U.S.positive law “citizen” child.

Right?

That is how immutable natural law is the original genesis of the original intent of positive law that is immutable.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And the "table-talk conversation" can continue into different directions, such as a discussion of "opposites" as you wrote in the first sentence -

>> "... in our relative world one can better understand the meaning of a word by understanding its opposite."

Both natural law "birth" and natural law "death" are, well, immutable opposites.

TWO parents produce ONE child.
TWO U.S. citizen parents produce ONE U.S. citizen child.

Both parents.

Only natural law death can separate the natural law U.S. "natural born Citizen" from being a U.S. "citizen" from birth.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

Hey, I noticed that things get awfully slow in this sad little corner of the internet when Byron and I aren't around, so I thought I'd stop by. Art, who hasn't achieved the intellectual maturity of the average 5-year old, keeps harping about the original intent of the Founders and then either ignoring my responses or saying the equivalent of "I know you are, but what am I?" before asking questions of the form "when did you stop beating your wife", so I thought I would answer that question specifically while things were slow to make his inevitable petulant and childish response more obvious.

Here are some "original-intent" questions for you, Art (you can play along too, Mario, if you like [no one cares what you do or say MichaelN]):

If the 14th Amendment had been included in the Constitution as originally ratified, would President Obama be a natural born citizen?

If the Framers had also made clear that their intent was to explicitly include the common law rule of jus soli in the Constitution, would that be sufficient?

Since every Constitutional Amendment takes precedence over prior Amendments and the Constitution itself, should not the intent of each Amendment's writers take precedence over that of the previous Amendments and the Framers?

That being the case, and since the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli which was in effect under the Constitution as originally written (what they believed the Framers originally intended, by the way), doesn't this mean that they considered all "14th Amendment citizens" to also be citizens under the Constitution as originally written?

Wasn't the 14th Amendment written, in part, to overturn the very case that Mario quoted, Scott v. Sandford in support of his argument because they believed said decision to be repugnant and wrong on the law?

Finally, are you willing to accept that the Framers (all of them) intended President Obama to be considered natural born or are you unwilling to consider their original intent?

ajtelles said...

Wormwood and Elementary Math...

For those who have read "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S.l Lewis, you know who Wormwood is.

On June 28, 2014 at 3:49 PM, Slartibartfast, aka Kevin, aka highly educated wise guy, uh, I mean, highly educated Phd. mathematician, aka S..., wrote words of wisdom in a way that historians of the distant future will probably never record them.

>> "Hey, I noticed that things get awfully slow in this sad little corner of the internet
>> when Byron and I aren't around,
>> so I thought I'd stop by.


[S..., Bryan is probably wondering who "Byron" is.]

>> "Art, who hasn't achieved ... so I thought ... ."

[S..., your Wormwood verbiage is so childish, so off to the shallow end of the intellectual pool for you.
Sheesh, S..., your uncle Screwtape must be proud of you.]


[...]

[S..., as for your "if ... would" questions, which you probably culled from your Obama-birther cohorts on ObamaConspiracy.org or on TheFogbow or on Cafe Con Leche Republicans, only one needs to be considered to reveal the irrelevancy of the other 2000s Obama birth narrative questions, the 2000s theory, the 2000w myth, that Obama-birthers want to impose on the 1700s original intent and original genesis meaning of the 1700 common law that was known to the Framers before the first naturalization act was passed in 1790.]

>> "If the [1868] 14th Amendment
had been included in the Constitution as originally ratified,
would President Obama be a natural born citizen?


[That "if ... would" hypothetical question is just too silly.]

[...]

S..., as for the rest of your constitutionally irrelevant hypothetical questions, readers can read them on your June 28, 2014 at 3:49 PM post.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

S..., the rest of your 14th Amendment "if ... would" questions are irrelevant to 1700s oiginal intent and original genesis. Does the irrelevancy need to be spelled out for you?

The SCOTUS would NEVER consider your questions if an Obama-birther lawyer were defending the Obama birth narrative at the Court.

S..., your uncle Screwtape would probably say that you made a valiant try at obfuscating about 1700s original intent and original genesis as understood by John Jay when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washington.

The Obama birth narrative of "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" was not part of the 1700s common law, the original public meaning of "natural born Citizen" with the obvious natural law demand of two persons uniting to produce one child, and the concomitant demand of the singular citizenship of two U.S. citizen parents to produce a singular citizenship U.S. citizen child.

TWO produce one.
TWO parents produce one child.
TWO U.S. citizen parents produce ONE U.S. citizen child.

Two dual citizenship "citizen" parents can NOT produce a singular citizenship "citizen" child.

A U.S. singular citizenship "natural born Citizen" is a U.S. citizen of only the two U.S. citizens who are singular citizenship "citizens" of only ONE nation, the U.S., BEFORE the child is born.

S..., THAT is elementary math, can you dig it?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Doublee said...

The 14th amendment says this:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

The key phrase is subject to the jurisdiction thereof...

Words in the Constitution are intended to have effect. What is the effect of those words?

Is someone born on U.S. soil to parents who are here
(a)illegally
(b)as tourists
(c)as diplomatic personnel
excluded from being a citizen of the United States?

On what basis would those words discriminate among any of the choices listed above. For example why would (a) and (b) become citizens and (c) would not?

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...
" That being the case, and since the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli which was in effect under the Constitution as originally written (what they believed the Framers originally intended, by the way), doesn't this mean that they considered all "14th Amendment citizens" to also be citizens under the Constitution as originally written?"

Could you provide a citation to back up the idea that "the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli "?

Where was that stated?

Link please.

ajtelles said...

"link please"...

Wilted Rose, fellow American and Obama-birther nemesis Slartibartfast, aka Kevin, aka PhD. mathemathican wise guy, uh I mean, "I've got my opinion" and that's good 'nuf, aka S... has no links.

Never has, never will.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

See "What President Abraham Lincoln said about the “Union”"
at
>> http://originalbirtherdocument2.blogspot.com/

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of IV

Here are my answers to your questions. Below is my reasoning for my answers.

If the 14th Amendment had been included in the Constitution as originally ratified, would President Obama be a natural born citizen? No.

If the Framers had also made clear that their intent was to explicitly include the common law rule of jus soli in the Constitution, would that be sufficient? No.

Since every Constitutional Amendment takes precedence over prior Amendments and the Constitution itself, should not the intent of each Amendment's writers take precedence over that of the previous Amendments and the Framers? No.

That being the case, and since the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli which was in effect under the Constitution as originally written (what they believed the Framers originally intended, by the way), doesn't this mean that they considered all "14th Amendment citizens" to also be citizens under the Constitution as originally written? No.

Wasn't the 14th Amendment written, in part, to overturn the very case that Mario quoted, Scott v. Sandford in support of his argument because they believed said decision to be repugnant and wrong on the law? No.

Finally, are you willing to accept that the Framers (all of them) intended President Obama to be considered natural born or are you unwilling to consider their original intent? No, their original intent.

Here is my reasoning and support for my answers:

The English common law jus soli rule was anathema to the Framers who after the grandfather period, excluded from being President anyone who was not a natural born citizen.

The simple reason for that is that the English common law, by mere birth in the dominion and under the King’s allegiance, considered all so born “natural born subjects.” The problem is that some of those persons were truly natural-born subjects while others were only considered or deemed as such. The only ones who were truly natural-born subjects were children born in the dominion to English subject parents. Those who were born in the dominion to alien parents were also called natural-born subjects. But these latter persons were naturalized at birth as natural-born subjects through the power of being born in the dominion. So, these latter persons under the English common law were really denizens or at best naturalized subjects, but called natural-born subjects. See both the reports of Lord Coke and Francis Bacon in Calvin’s Case (1608) (they both explain that Calvin, while born to alien parents, but born in the King’s dominion, had under the ancient English common law the birthright to be naturalized at birth and so was naturalized at birth to be an English natural born subject). Lord Coke’s report on Calvin’s Case can be read here: http://www.constitution.org/coke/Calvins_Case-7_Coke_Report_1a_77_ER_377.html . Francis Bacon’s report on Calvin’s Case can be read here: 7 The Works of Francis Bacon 637-79 (eds. J. Spedding, R.L. Ellis, and D.P. Heath 1879), accessed at http://books.google.com/books?id=yjo1AAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false .

I have already commented at length on this blog how Lord Coke naturalized Calvin at birth to be an English natural born subject. Given Wilted Rose’s reference to and quote from Francis Bacon, now I want to address what Bacon said in Calvin’s case. As Bacon explained in Calvin’s Case, there were four classes of people under English law: “alien enemy;” “alien friend;” “denizen, using the word properly, (for sometimes it is confounded with a natural born subject”); and “natural born subject,” “by birth or by act of parliament.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of IV

Id. at 648-49. He said that “there be but two conditions by birth, either ‘alien,’ or ‘natural born.’” Id. at 650. He continued that Calvin’s situation was one of “naturalizing subjects by descent . . . and that is the union in the person of the king.” Id. at 663. He then concluded that “the post-natus of Scotland is by the law of England natural,” based on “law,” . . . “reason and authorities of law,” . . . [a]nd . . . “former precedents and examples.” Id. at 663. Bacon further argued:

“Furthermore as the law of England must favour naturalization as a branch of the law of nature, so it appears manifestly, that it doth favour it accordingly. For it is not much to make a subject naturalized by the law of England: it should suffice, either place or parents. If he be born in England it is no matter though his parents be Spaniards, or what you will: on the other side, if he be born of English parents, it skilleth not though he be born in Spain, or in any other place of he world. In such sort doth the law of England open her lap to receive in people to be naturalized; which indeed showeth the wisdom and excellent composition of our law, and that it is the law of a warlike and a magnanimous nation fit for empire. For look, and you will find that such estates have been ever liberal in point of naturalization: whereas merchant-like and envious estates have been otherwise” (footnote omitted) .

Id. at 664-65.

Bacon saw a natural born subject created either by birth or act of Parliament. He also saw one created by naturalization at birth or what he called “a subject naturalized by the law of England.” He explained “either place or parents” produced naturalization at birth under the law of England. He explained that under English common law, a child born in the King’s dominions to alien parents (place) or under an Act of Parliament a child born out of the King’s dominion to English subject parents (parents) was naturalized at birth. But even though naturalized, English law considered and deemed that child to be a natural-born subject. So even children born in the King’s dominion, if born to alien parents, were naturalized, although automatically at birth. So, in the case of children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents, the English common law jus soli rule was in reality one of naturalization and nothing more. It is an irrefutable conclusion that follows from Bacon’s rule of naturalization that a child that was born in the King’s dominion and born to English subject parents, i.e., place and parents united as one in England at the time of birth, did not need to be naturalized.

The English common law jus soli rule did not work for the Framers who under the Constitution set up, not a monarchy, but a constitutional republic, and who did not create a King, but rather an elected president who was also to be the commander in chief of the military. In order for them to best provide for the preservation and survival of the republic, they sought for those born after the adoption of the Constitution to exclude from those offices anyone who was born subject to a foreign power. To accomplish their goal of having the President and Commander be in allegiance only to the United States, they inserted the natural born citizen clause in Article II eligibility. By doing so, they incorporated into the Constitution the law of nation and its definition of a natural born citizen, which was pure and immutable in nature and did not produce conflicting allegiances as did that of the English common law jus soli rule. That definition provided that in order to be a natural born citizen, one had to be born in the

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Only those who were so born did not need any form of naturalization, whether at birth or after birth, to become citizens. Not needing any form of naturalization, one was not born subject to any foreign power and therefore solely in allegiance to the United States. The law of nations definition of a natural born citizen was also consistent with the Framers’ idea that persons had to consent to be citizens and ultimately to be governed.

The English common law jus soli rule was never adopted under the Constitution as part of our national law. Rather, that rule only had continuing effect in the states until abrogated by their state legislatures. Hence, a person made a state citizen under jus soli may have been a citizen of that state. But that person, unless he or she satisfied the common law rule of who shall be a natural born citizen or some Act of Congress as to who shall be a citizen of the United States, remained an alien as to the United States of America. Since the common law controlled who shall be a citizen by birth in the United States, and that law tied the right to satisfying the definition of a natural born citizen, no one born in the United States could be a citizen of the United States by naturalization at birth. Since the common law did not apply out of the jurisdiction of the United State but Acts of Congress did, Congress naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, calling them “citizens of the United States” at birth.

With the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, our nation for the first time passed laws that allowed for the naturalization at birth of children born in the United States to alien parents. The Civil Rights Act, while not requiring birth to citizen parents, still required that the child be born in the United States and “not subject to a foreign power.” Other than natural born citizens, only the children of freed slaves could satisfy this standard. The Fourteenth Amendment, ratified in 1866, as interpreted by Wong Kim Ark, introduced a lax standard similar to that which existed under the English common law jus soli rule (the English common law demanded allegiance to the King and not to England and Wong Kim Ark said we needed allegiance to the laws of the United States and not to the nation). It allowed children born in the United States to alien parents to be considered as “citizen of the United States” at birth, which we saw is nothing more than naturalization at birth. But because the standard is not that of a natural born citizen, its framers did not call the born citizens that it produces natural born citizens, but rather only citizens of the United States. This amendment now also allowed children of alien white Europeans and other non-slave children born to them in the United States to be “citizen of the United States” at birth. So, while the Fourteenth Amendment created another class of person who could be citizens of the United State at birth by birth in the country, a person who was born in the United States to alien parents, it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s natural born citizen clause.

So through all this historical, constitutional, Congressional, and U.S. Supreme Court development, a natural born citizen continued to be defined as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth which, never having been changed by constitutional amendment or U.S. Court decision, is what the definition is still today.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

Does the natural born citizen clause as so defined have a useful purpose for our nation? Being born a natural born citizen as so defined means that a person is born with sole and absolute allegiance only to the United States. In time of war for personal and national survival, all positive and municipal laws are cast aside. The law of nature takes over with its first law being self-preservation and survival, which can only successfully occur through the undivided allegiance of the people. Indeed, the undivided allegiance of the people will be critical to their survival and preservation and that of their nation. With allegiance being such a critical driving force for survival and self-preservation, should not the Commander in Chief of the Military, who is the highest military authority in time of such war, be solely in natural allegiance to the people he or she is duty bound to protect and preserve? I believe the answer to this question is self-evident and that therefore the natural born citizen clause serves a critical purpose for the survival and preservation of our nation.

So, Slartibartfast, are you for once going to defend what your write here rather than just write it and then run to Fogbow after writing it to show them how smart you are by what you wrote here, but not posting there what the responses to your drivel here are?

Unknown said...

The stated intent of the Framers of 14th was to naturalise the slaves you liar. Mario has already schooled you on this many times

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/h2ooflife/Adrien Nash,

I of III

From your confusing and incomprehensible comments, I see that you missed the simplicity of my point. The point of my birth/death analogy is to show that there are conditions in human affairs which exist in nature and that for special reasons, sometimes it becomes necessary to create those same conditions by the fiction of law.

As I explained, birth and death are opposites in the natural life cycle, the former being the beginning and the latter being the end of life for one human being. In the English language, we find instances in which we have qualified both of these words. We have used natural born and natural death. The fact that we are qualifying the words in such a manner denotes that we have created a means by which we can look at these natural life cycle elements in some artificial way. In the context of citizenship, again, there is natural born and made born by operation of law (law born.) As to the natural born, one is a natural born citizen without the aid of any law. As we have seen, a child who is born in a country to parents who are its citizens at the time of the child’s birth needs no law to make him or her a citizen and is therefore a natural born citizen. As to law born, a child can also be made a born citizen by operation of law. In our nation that would be by the Fourteenth Amendment or an Act of Congress.
With respect to death, we have situations wherein a person is natural dead, meaning there is undeniable evidence that the person is dead and not to be confuse with what caused the death. But we can also have a situation wherein the law, because of special circumstances, presumes a person to be dead. In that case, the person is not natural dead that we know of, but by law made to be dead. After a certain amount of years have passed (well beyond the person’s life expectancy), we can then safely conclude that that person is truly dead (natural dead).

As another example of the nature v. law dichotomy, we also have a natural child and adopted child, natural father and father-in-law, etc., and natural person and corporation, with all the latter so made not by nature, but rather by operation of law.

So, these examples help us to understand what the Framers meant when they wrote citizen and natural born citizen. When the Framers wrote the natural born citizen clause into the Constitution, there did not exist any Acts of Congress which defined who were the citizens and the natural born citizens. What existed then was the English common law and English and colonial statutes that defined natural born subjects. But the Framers did not rely upon any of those laws for their definition of a natural born citizen. Rather, they obtained their idea of who was a natural born citizen from natural law and the law of nations. Emer de Vattel was their favorite source for learning what the law of nations provided. Under the law of nations as explained by Vattel in Section 212 of The Law of Nations, a citizen was simply a member of a nation, regardless of how the person may have obtained and have been officially recognized by the nation as having that status. On the other hand, a natural born citizen was one who inherited his or her citizenship and allegiance without the aid of any law, inheriting them from his or her parents at the time of birth by being born to them in the nation in which they were members. In other words, a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. So, a natural born citizen needed no law for his or her coming into being while a citizen could only come into being through a law. Given that Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained that the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution so provided, we can reasonably conclude that the Founding generation incorporated the law of nations rule as explained by Vattel into American common law.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

As far as the Framers were concerned, all the rest of the national citizens were ones so made by operation of law made by Congress (not to be conflated and confounded with state citizens so made under state statutory or common law). Since the early naturalization acts of Congress provided for who were to be the “citizens of the United States,” who were not natural born citizens, the Framers did not foresee the courts making any citizens of the United States through the common law like the English courts made natural-born subjects by application of the English common law. Vattel explained in Section 214, which he called “Naturalisation,” that England naturalized at birth children born to alien parents in the King’s dominion and allegiance. As we have seen from Calvin’s Case (1608), they naturalized at birth such children through application of the English common law, considering them as natural-born subjects. See my previous comments on Calvin’s Case as reported by both Lord Coke and Sir Francis Bacon. Hence, Vattel was correct. But the English common law jus soli rule of naturalizing children of aliens at birth did not have any application in the new America. Under the new national rule of citizenship, only citizen parents could beget a natural born citizen child (as declared by American common law) or cause an alien born child to become during his or her minority a citizen through naturalization (so made by naturalization Acts of Congress).

We know that Congress knew who the true natural born citizens were and distinguished citizens made by operation of law from natural born citizens, calling the former “citizens of the United States,” and not “natural born citizens.” Only in the Naturalization Act of 1790 did Congress provide, like the English did in their statutory laws (under acts of Parliament these children were aliens naturalized and for all intents and purposes were considered and deemed the same as natural born subjects) that such naturalized citizens “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” So these children were not really natural born citizens, but given the privileges, immunities, and rights of one, except the privilege of being President which was reserved only to a person who met the Constitution’s definition of a natural born citizen. The Naturalization Act of 1795 repealed the 1790 Act and replaced that language with “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Hence, we can see that Congress knew well the difference between a natural born citizen and a citizen so made by operation of law and that one made by law was really a citizen and not a natural born citizen. So, if one did not qualify to be a natural born citizen, one could be a citizen only if one satisfied an Act of Congress.

The problem for many persons born in the United States to alien parents was that the then-existing Acts of Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization after their birth. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 allowed children born in the United States to freed slaves to become “citizens of the United States” automatically at birth. But because they were born “subject to a foreign power,” children born in the United States to European or other alien parents did not find any relief in the Act.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

The Fourteenth Amendment, which was ratified 81 years after the Constitution was adopted, changed the rule that either one was a natural born citizen under the common law or satisfied an Act of Congress in order to be a citizen of the United States. The amendment allowed persons who were born in the United States but not to U.S. citizen parents to become “citizens of the United States” automatically from the moment of birth and without having to be naturalized by Congress. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) extended the reach of the Amendment to children born in the United States to Chinese alien parents who were subjects of a foreign power and therefore also such children born to European alien parents. But in making that change, it did not change the definition of a natural born citizen. Rather, what it did, under the interpretation given to the amendment by Wong Kim Ark, was make children born in the United States to qualifying alien parents “citizens of the United States” at birth, just like the English common law naturalized such children as natural-born subjects. Hence, the amendment in effect naturalized those children at birth to be citizens of the United States just like the English common law naturalized at birth children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents to be natural-born subjects. Needing naturalization, those Fourteenth Amendment citizens fall in the class of citizens who the Framers would have seen as citizens and not natural born citizens, for those citizens do not satisfy the Framers’ common law definition of a natural born citizen. Hence, the amendment, other than creating more potential parents (making them citizens of the United States) who may go on to procreate natural born citizens, had no impact upon the meaning of a natural born citizen.

Without the definition ever having been repealed or amended by a constitutional amendment or reinterpreted by the U.S. Supreme Court, a natural born citizen today continues to be defined as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. All other citizens, whether made by operation of law at birth or after birth, are just citizens and not natural born citizens. Hence, all natural born citizens are born citizens, but not all born citizens are natural born citizens. With the sets not being equal, natural born citizens is a proper subset of born citizens. This means that of the born citizens, only those who are not so made by operation of law and whose natural birth status is so recognized by American common law are the natural born citizens. And since only those who are born or reputed born in the United States to parents who were both either natural born citizens or citizens of the United States at the time of the child’s birth are born citizens by virtue of no law (not the Fourteenth Amendment, Act of Congress, or the English common law), and are recognized as born citizens by American common law, they are the only persons who are Article II natural born citizens.

Unknown said...

Yoo Hoo, Slartibartfast!

"Wilted Rose said...

Slartibartfast said...
" That being the case, and since the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli which was in effect under the Constitution as originally written (what they believed the Framers originally intended, by the way), doesn't this mean that they considered all "14th Amendment citizens" to also be citizens under the Constitution as originally written?"

Could you provide a citation to back up the idea that "the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli "?

Where was that stated?

Link please.

June 28, 2014 at 7:36 PM"

Come on, man, don't you have something?

If it is just your opinion, say so.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

Given your amply demonstrated bias (and my belief that the only documents birthers deserve to see are the papers authorizing their deportation), I wont provide you with quotes or links until we establish what would constitute sufficient evidence of the intent of the writers of the 14th Amendment.

I'm sorry this is necessary, but birthers have an extensive history of goalpost moving. In any case, this is a question you should be happy to give a reasonable answer to if you are interested in an honest discussion, right?

Mario,

According to you, if a response does not address the issues as posed, the original argument stands unchallenged. Therefore, we may assume the answers to all of my questions were "yes" since you never answered what was asked.

As for your implicit contention that my citing someone else's argument (such as Mr. Maskell's reports for the CRS) instead of coming up with my own variation on the same reasoning somehow makes my position less credible, that is one of the more inane ideas you've ever expressed. Arguments stand or fall on their merits, not on their authors (although credible and relevant expertise adds to the merits of an author's words).

In this case, "my" opinion is completely consistent with the holding in Wong Kim Ark (and Minor v. Happersett, for that matter), it has been cited by courts ruling the way that I wish them to (i.e. ruling President Obama to be eligible) and whenever a member of Congress asks about presidential eligibility, their own researchers give out my opinion as an authoritative discussion on the subject.

In contrast, every time your opinion or something similar has appeared in any court (save Scott v. Sandford) it has been rejected for reasons consistent with my position. While I know that this is a great victory, by your reckoning, you are welcome to all of the "Apuzzos" you can get.

Slartibartfast said...

Adrien,

I'll respond to you over at the Fogbow rather than here, since you are the only one with the courage to debate in a forum unprotected by moderation or censorship. Maybe some of the others here will find the courage to join you over at The Fogbow (I linked the thread on Mario as someone must register and join the birther engagers group or get put in FEMA Camp 7 1/2 in order to see the thread you've been posting on), but they are probably too scared to comment in a place where people want links to facts and references to credible and relevant authority.

Art,

Sorry, but you have become far too boring to be worth responding to. Instead of trying to use words and phrases that you don't really understand in an attempt to sound more educated than you really are, why don't you try to adduce a single piece of evidence that supports your Byzantine theory regarding John Jay's intent in his letter to General Washington? While I'm sure my words wont stop you, your inane arguments reveal your cargo-cult understanding of the Constitution and the law and will never convince a single soul to change their mind and agree with you.

dick head,

Most slaves, even by Mario's definition, became natural born citizens under the 14th Amendment. Those born under the jurisdiction to parents who were born under the jurisdiction are unquestionably children born on the soil to parents who were (retroactively made) citizens at the time their birth, right?

Doublee,

There is a simple rule of thumb to determine whether or not someone is subject to a given jurisdiction: Do the authorities of said jurisdiction have the power to arrest that person? If the FBI can arrest you, then you are under US jurisdiction, just like you are under Sheriff Arpaio's jurisdiction if he can arrest you (President Obama isn't, by the way) or under English jurisdiction if Scotland Yard can say "You're nicked!" On the other hand, if someone from Scotland Yard wants to apprehend a fugitive in, say, New York, they must get the locals involved and then extradite the person once they're in local custody.

The FBI clearly has the authority to arrest illegal or transient aliens along with immigrants and citizens. They cannot arrest a foreigner with diplomatic immunity, although they can arrest a US diplomat overseas. This provides a clear basis to discriminate amongst the cases you listed, and any others that might come up as well, using the clear meaning of the word "jurisdiction" that has existed undisputed for centuries.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Do you realize that you are a complete fraud? Do you really think that you provide any convincing responses to any comments directed to you on this blog? Yours is all just going in your useless circles of saying nothing. You are a naïve and immature dreamer who finds comfort only at the Fogbow.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast,

You said:
" I wont provide you with quotes or links until we establish what would constitute sufficient evidence of the intent of the writers of the 14th Amendment."

As you said,
"since the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli"

...then show that intent through the statements of the framers of the 14th amendment, like you said.
The debates and statements of the framers are most likely available in the Congressional Globe.

Agreed?

Unknown said...

The 14th only says citizen of the US and wilted has asked you to provide the link to back up your other gibberish. Maybe the 14th has been rewritten and sfast is only one aware of it......sf gives barry every benefit of the doubt too btw and probably believes the irs emails were lost haha

Slartibartfast said...

Justifying his response to my questions, Mario said:

"The English common law jus soli rule was anathema to the Framers who after the grandfather period, excluded from being President anyone who was not a natural born citizen. "

First you say that jus soli was anathema to the Framers. While this is an assertion made without a shred of evidence (and with substantial evidence to the contrary), the real problem with this is that it completely ignores the question which was based on what would be true IF the Framers embraced jus soli. You continue with a non-sequitur (which you use to implicitly beg the question) saying that they restricted the presidency to natural born citizens---clearly trying to imply your assumed definition of "natural born citizen", which would then confirm your first assumption and bootstrap your argument. Unfortunately, you got caught in a logical fallacy and lost the argument by your own standard by failing to address my position.

Better luck next time.

Mario said:

"Do you realize that you are a complete fraud? Do you really think that you provide any convincing responses to any comments directed to you on this blog? Yours is all just going in your useless circles of saying nothing. You are a naïve and immature dreamer who finds comfort only at the Fogbow"

I don't think that anyone who hasn't already made up their mind ever reads this blog. Wilted Rose tried to project a facade of objectivity, but after a while her extreme skepticism with regard to some arguments and non-existent skepticism with regard to others gave her away.

I am naive enough to believe that a scientific methodology is the best way to make accurate predictions about the universe and I dream of a day when all those with a conspiratorial mindset are either laughed at, or, even better, ignored.

Anyway, at least I'm not naive (or ignorant) enough to think that I could use logical fallacies in every aspect of my arguments and convince intelligent, unbiased people (and judges) that I am correct.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast,

I do my own research.

If it doesn't support your point of view it isn't my fault. It is what it is.

By the way, children of Aliens born in England were not natural born subjects - they were denizens.

The Law dictionaries have said:

"...that if one born out of the king's allegiance come and dwell in England, his children, begotten here, are not aliens, but denizens."

It is in...

Nomo-lexikon: A Law-dictionary : Interpreting Such ...
Thomas Blount - 1670


Nomothetēs, the Interpreter: Containing the Genuine ...
John Cowell, ‎Thomas Manley - 1684


A Law Dictionary: or the interpreter of Words and Terms,1708


Cyclopaedia, Or an Universal Dictionary of Arts and ...
Ephraïm Chambers - 1741


A New Law Dictionary Containing the Interpretation and ... - Page iii
Giles Jacob - 1750


Lex Mercatoria Rediviva: Or, The Merchant's Directory: ... - Page 276
Wyndham Beawes, ‎Jacques Savary des Brûlons - 1773


Use Google books and search the phrase. They are there.



Blackstone, one of the favorite authorities, quoted quite often recently, was wrong.

That is the problem with appeal to authority. Sometimes the authority is wrong, and others build upon that error a house of cards that can be blown down with the slightest breeze of truth.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Hey Slartibartfast, here’s some question begging for you:

We just happen to have these precious words by Vattel who was the Framers’ required reading:

§ 212. Citizens and natives.
The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.

Emer de Vattel, Section 212, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797).

And then we have this gem from the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor:

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875).

As you see, I do not have to beg for anything. On the other hand, I surely would not say the same for you.

Regarding your mathematical genius and how you can use it to solve all problems in the universe, I have not yet seen your mathematical equation or formula which proves what the Framers’ intent was when they made the natural born citizen clause one of the three presidential eligibility requirements and how they defined the clause. Please do show all your work.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

First, how do you explain that both Lord Coke and Sir Francis Bacon found that Calvin, born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance to alien parents was a natural-born subject? They did not say he was a denizen.

Second, William Blackstone said: "The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such." You said that Blackstone got it wrong. But Blackstone never said that those children were not naturalized at birth as natural-born subjects. In fact, he said that they were “entitled to all the privileges of such,” suggesting that there were other natural-born subjects with whom they were being compared and equated. Also, you made a point about Blackstone saying “generally speaking.” But what he meant by the qualification was that not all persons born in the King’s dominion were natural born subjects. They also had to be born under his allegiance. So, if a child was born in the King’s dominion to parents who were foreign diplomats or military invaders, the child was not a natural-born subject. So please explain how Blackstone was wrong?

Please provide your response to these two points.

ajtelles said...

too silly...

Slartibartfast, aka Kevin, aka PhD wise guy, uh, I mean Phd mathematician, aka S..., on June 29, 2014 at 8:47 PM, you made a molotov cocktail drive-by and said something to

_Wilted Rose
_Mario
_Adrien
_dick head
_Doublee
_Art

>> "Art,

>> Sorry, but you have become far too boring to be worth responding to.
>> Instead of trying to use words and phrases that you don't really understand
>> in an attempt to sound more educated than you really are,
>> why don't you try to adduce a single piece of evidence
>> that supports your Byzantine theory
>> regarding John Jay's intent in his letter to General Washington?


S..., you are just too silly, dude.

When John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen," was he implying that the 1700s common law, the 1700s public meaning meant born in the U.S. or in a foreign country?

U.S. or foreign?

Did John Jay mean that "born" meant ONLY born to one U.S. citizen parent?

ONLY One?

Did John Jay mean that "born" mean ONLY born to two U.S. citizen parents?

ONLY Two?

Did John Jay mean that "born" meant ALSO born to two U.S. citizen parents?

ALSO Two?

S..., if your answer is ONLY two U.S. citizen parents or ALSO two U.S. citizen parents, you lose the debate dude, and you know it.

That is why you have NEVER answered that simple question.

Is it ONLY 1 or ONLY 2 or ALSO 2?

The Obama birth narrative of only "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is NOT supported by the 1700s common law understanding of the "unity" part of "unity of citizenship and allegiance" and it never will be, and you know it.

S..., your Obama birth narrative that one U.S. citizen parent is as good two U.S. citizen parents is your achilles heel, 'cause it takes TWO to produce ONE child, and it takes TWO U.S. citizen parents to produce ONE U.S. citizen child.

Why?

'Cause two dual citizenship parents can NOT produce a singular citizenship child for the same natural law AND positive law reason that two singular citizenship parents can NOT produce a dual citizenship child.

It is NOT natural law OR positive law possible, deal with it.

While I'm sure my words wont stop you from being "hoist by your own petard", your inane arguments reveal your cargo-cult understanding of the Constitution and the law and will never convince a single soul to change their mind and agree with you.

S..., do you know what "hoist by your own petard (or petar)" means?

I asked you the same question on June 23, 2014 at 12:18 AM -

Here is the Wikipedia definition -
>> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hoist_by_one%27s_own_petard

Adjective
hoist by one's own petard

1. (idiomatic)
To be hurt or destroyed by one's own plot or device intended for another; to be "blown up by one's own bomb".

He has no one to blame but himself; he was hoisted by his own petard.

See also the French 'péter' at "The Phrase Finder" -
>> http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hoist%20by%20your%20own%20petard.html

Meaning
Injured by the device that you intended to use to injure others.

S..., the 'péter' residual effect of your insulting verbiage is not pleasant; control yourself, please.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Mario,
(snip)
Even though Calvin was considered an English subject because he was born within the King's dominions, he was considered naturalized by birth since his parents were considered aliens in England.

"First, The King hath the Crown of England by Birthright, being naturally procreated of the Blood Royal of this Realm: Secondly, Calvin the Plaintiff naturalized by Procreation and Birthright , since the Descent of the Crown of England:..."
The reports of Sir Edward Coke Kt. In English (1727)

"...yet was it resolved, That all those that were born under one natural Obedience, while the Realms were united under one Soveraign, should remain natural-born Subjects, and no Aliens; for that Naturalization due and vested by Birth right , cannot by any Separation of the Crowns afterward be taken away: nor he that was by Judgment of Law a natural Subject at the Time of his Birth, become an Alien by such a Matter ex post facto. "
The reports of Sir Edward Coke Kt. In English (1727)

So, Calvin was a natural born subject by birthright naturalization under common law.
(snip)

"For it is not much to make a subject naturalized by the law of England: it should suffice, either place or parents. If he be born in England it is no matter though his parents be Spaniards, or what you will: on the other side, if he be born of English parents it skilleth not though he be born in Spain, or in any other place of the world. In such sort doth the law of England open her lap to receive in people to be naturalized ; which indeed sheweth the wisdom and excellent composition of our law."
Francis Bacon (1730)

June 27, 2014 at 3:10 PM


Both Coke and Bacon were speaking in the generic sense that Calvin was a natural born subject. Natural born subject was a catch-all term for all of the King's subjects whether they were naturalized, denizens, or born subjects under the common law rule of born in the realm of subject parents.

When Blackstone said "generally speaking" I think he was saying that children born to alien parents were also subjects because they were naturalized by birth in the realm. "Natural born subject" covered a lot of territory.

I think that people are interpreting Blackstone wrong, not that he was necessarily wrong in what he said; he was just imprecise.

You can see from the quotes above that Coke and Bacon knew that a child of an alien was naturalized or made a denizen at birth. Back in 1604 natural born subject and denizen were often conflated.

Unknown said...

Also,

The Bacon quote emphasizes that, in England, jus soli alone resulted in naturalization of the child, and jus sanguinis alone resulted in naturalization of the child.

"For it is not much to make a subject naturalized by the law of England: it should suffice, either place or parents. If he be born in England it is no matter though his parents be Spaniards, or what you will: on the other side, if he be born of English parents it skilleth not though he be born in Spain, or in any other place of the world. In such sort doth the law of England open her lap to receive in people to be naturalized; which indeed sheweth the wisdom and excellent composition of our law."
Francis Bacon (1730)


All that was left to make a true natural born subject was jus soli and jus sanguinis together.

Just like the common law said:

“All those are natural born Subjects whose Parents, at the Time their Birth, were under the actual obedience of our King, and whose Place of Birth was within his Dominions.”

Anonymous said...

I've just written an explanation of the impact on citizenship that was spotlighted in the Dred Scot v. Sandford opinion. Very strange.

~That illumination reveals a few rather clear but surprising facts: Each State remained sovereign over the citizenship within its own borders, -State citizenship. It was separate from the citizenship entitled to all members of the union of the States under the Constitution.

What existed under the Constitution was a situation of there continuing to be the individual independent countries within a greater country. Membership in any of the component countries was independent of membership in the greater country since it followed different rules.

The Constitution insured the rights of all State citizens being respected in each of the other States but only to the extent of State citizens being of a type of person universally accepted by all of the other States of the union.

The character of citizen that was recognized under the Constitution as being a citizen nationally and universally accepted in all States involved standards that could not be exceeded by any individual State and still have their citizen accepted in the national family of citizenship.

That was an unwritten agreement and understanding between the independent sovereign republics that formed the union.

So in effect it said that they all understood that all of their standard citizens would be taken as equal citizens in all other States and equally members of the aggregate nation. But their non-standard citizens would not, and would remain solely citizens of the State that made them into a citizen.

What would conceivably be a non-standard citizen (as I'm labeling such citizens)? It could have been persons from a particular area of Europe that had ethnic groups that were particularly unacceptable to most Americans, and no doubt there were plenty of them, -none of them with a British heritage, nor English language background.
Foreigners who were truly foreign. And that was just foreigners from Europe (Eastern, Southern, Catholic, Muslim, etc.) without even getting to the truly alien areas of the world such as Asia.

A State with a large percentage of very foreign foreigners would want to naturalize them as able, but the other States would not want to accept them as fellow Americans because they would never cease being foreign to them, and so they would be among those with a non-standard character that was not universally accepted and understood to be what an American is under the agreement of the Constitution.
cont...

Anonymous said...

non-standard citizens continued...

It was all about sovereignty. The States retained their independent right to naturalized foreigners by their own rules, but under the Constitution, there was a new nation-wide standard written by Congress first in 1790 for re-making foreigners into American citizens, -citizens of the new nation of the United States.

It was very simple, dealing with length of residency prior to naturalization, character; -it had to be "good", and race; it had to be "white", -with white not being defined but meaning in reality Caucasian. That was ambiguous as white immigrants from India once found out.
Were they also what the Anglo-Saxons considered white? [I think that occurred in Britain though] Inadequate language terms never make for clearly understood law.

States had always existed previously as separate chartered self-governed monarchical republics which had their own rules about whom to naturalize and how, and that independence continued up to and beyond the Constitution, but with each of the new States coming under a new national authority over national citizenship in addition to their own authority over intra-state citizenship.

They could still adopt and follow naturalization rules separate from the new uniform national rule but if they did so, the citizen that they recognized would not have to be recognized by the other States nor the national government.

Such citizens may have included free African-Americans, or American Indians, or Asians, or Catholic Latinos, or religious groups rejected by all other Americans, such as the Mormons or Muslims.

Anonymous said...

Mario erred thusly:

" Only in the Naturalization Act of 1790 did Congress provide, like the English did in their statutory laws (under acts of Parliament these children were aliens naturalized and for all intents and purposes were considered and deemed the same as natural born subjects)"
CORRECTIONS:
1. Congress, unlike almighty Parliament, had limited authority, and none over American children.

2. American children were automatically natural born citizens by inheritance of their father's political character via blood relationship. Per Vattel.

3. Parliament could consider British children to be aliens or Martians because it could do anything it needed to rationalize its making alien-born babies into Englishmen for life.

4. Labeling British children aliens, and then on the other hand magically deeming them British, had no connection to America because, as you well know, a "natural-born subject" was NOT the political equivalent to a natural born citizen since the former was defined by common law convention as meaning simply a subject, while the latter is defined by natural law and means one is more than simply "a citizen".
STOP IGNORING THAT FACT! NO EQUIVALENCY!

continued...

Anonymous said...

"that such naturalized citizens “shall be considered as natural born citizens.”
Mario continued...

"So these children were not really natural born citizens, but given the privileges, immunities, and rights of one, except the privilege of being President which was reserved only to a person who met the Constitution’s definition [No, not the Constitution's definition but yours!] of a natural born citizen."


That has to be one of the least thought-out statements he could make.
1. Natural born citizens have only one privilege that legal citizens do not; eligibility to be President.
2. Mario proclaims that the fools in the first Congress, founders and authors of the BILL OF RIGHTS protections, declared American children to be ALIENS!!! just like almighty Parliament had done to its children, -but then deigned to make them pseudo-citizens, quasi-citizens, make-believe citizens!

3. But that idiot Congress didn't stop there, no,no... It instead leaped far ahead into the fantasy of labeling them natural born citizens just for the hell of it!!!
What was that??? Feel-good language serving no purpose whatsoever???

4. Pretend citizens do not exist. Pretend natural citizens don't either. The most serious and constitutionally aware Congress in American history was not exercising its authority to order everyone to pretend anything.

5. Mario incredibly declares that Congress "gave" them everything under the American sun EXCEPT the right to be President, when in fact, that is the ONLY right that natural citizens possess that other legal citizens do not.

So, Mario, what exactly did Congress give them that required ordering them to be recognized as natural born citizens?

Answer: NOTHING!!!

6. The Constitution has no definition of a natural born citizen or else a million words explaining the term would not have been authored, -with half of them having been authored by yours truly.

Anonymous said...

Slarti wrote: "Do the authorities of said jurisdiction have the power to arrest that person? If the FBI can arrest you, then you are under US jurisdiction."

Dear Slart., you could hardly have written anything more stupid than that. You first error is in using the word "power" instead of authority.

Authorities all have Power and can use and or abuse it. That is not relevant to what the jurisdiction is that one must be subject to in order for citizenship to attach to one's alien-born children under the 14th Amendment as written.

Both the power and authority to arrest have nothing to do with national political sovereignty and the jurisdiction that it imposes on members of a country. The jurisdiction that it imposes is that on which the nation's survival depends.

You already know what I'm about to write next and yet you skip on like an ignorant child pretending that you don't know what you actually do know, it having been explained to you over and over.

Your pretend ignorance is not ignorance but deliberate deceit because no one could be as stupid as you pretend to be.

The "power to arrest" is irrelevant to national survival since everyone in the nation may be law abiding, and everyone may have guns and aren't afraid to use them against lawbreakers if need be.

But a nation without any military, in the world in which the United States was born and still exists, could and would be overrun, as all of human history attests, and destroyed by foreign forces.

What use is the power to arrest civilians going to be against an invading army, genius? Pray tell.

The jurisdiction under which one must be born is the authority of the national government, not to arrest, dummy, but to conscript.

Mandatory military service is the bedrock of national authority needed to survive. If one is exempt from that authority then one is not subject to the nation's full authority and the 14th Amendment would not apply to one's child.
Similarly, the authority to tax is also an element of that jurisdiction.

How many foreign ambassadors are immune from arrest? None! If one is driving very drunk, will he be given a pass or taken into custody? If one is committing a murder...? Being immune from prosecution is a whole other matter.

Now, how many ambassadors are subject to U.S. taxes? To conscription? How many foreign guests, tourists, and visitors are subject to conscription and U.S. taxes? NONE!! They ARE NOT SUBJECT!!!

Stop running away from and ignoring the truth, you deceitful, lying coward.

Anonymous said...

Slarti wrote: "I dream of a day when all those with a conspiratorial mindset are either laughed at, or, even better, ignored."
You are not only naive, but are flat-out ignorant. The mind-set of the founders was wholly conspiratorial.
Read the Declaration Independence and try to deny that they saw and understood a powerful conspiracy was being waged by Parliament against the sovereign rights of the colonial citizens.

Read the warnings of Churchill during the 1930s and try to deny that his conspiratorial mind-set was not fearful of the "gathering clouds" of aggressive military conspiracy by the Nazi and Fascist regimes against all of Europe.

What god has concluded that perception of conspiracy is not usually correct?

What fool ever says:"Don't go with your gut, it's always wrong. Don't go with reason either, it can't be trusted. Just go with what is most childlike and innocent."?

Anonymous said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

"First, how do you explain that both Lord Coke and Sir Francis Bacon found that Calvin, born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance to alien parents was a natural-born subject? They did not say he was a denizen."
It is because Time failed to stand still. Thus... views and language and opinions and rulings and statutes EVOLVED over time.
What was said in one century was not said in the next. Including now.
No one in Britain uses the term natural-born subject anymore. It's meaningless today. Evolution. That explains the change.

"First, The King hath the Crown of England by Birthright, being naturally procreated of the Blood Royal of this Realm: Secondly, Calvin the Plaintiff naturalized by Procreation and Birthright , since the Descent of the Crown of England:..."

Note the maximal expanse of the meaning of "naturalized", which is used for both natural subjects and made subjects.

The natural subjects are naturalized (or made natural) by Nature, (not man) via Procreation while the alien-born are made fictionally natural by "birthright" custom of common law dating, no doubt, back to William the Conqueror.

The term "birthright" had been bastardized to refer not to its real root of a right by inheritance, but a right by native-birth, with blood being replaced by birth-place.
It's strictly correct form would have been the cumbersome: "birth-place right" or "native-birth right" instead of birthright, which was misappropriated.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

I do not need a lecture from you that Calvin was naturalized at birth to be an English natural-born subject. I have been saying that for years and did not just recently learn that. Search my blog and you will find it. MichaelN has also been saying that for years on this blog.

On the other hand, I do agree that things do evolve, but that does not prove that Blackstone was wrong in his definition of an English natural-born subject.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

In your usual style, you complain much but have no evidence to demonstrate either that what I said is wrong or to support your own position.

I have two simple questions for you to which I hope you will provide a clear answer:

1. Why did the First Congress say in the Naturalization Act of 1790 that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens” rather than just say that they “are natural born citizens? As an example for such language as it applies to being a citizen of the United States, see the Fourteenth Amendment (“are citizens of the United States”) or 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401 (“shall be nationals and citizens of the United States”).

2. Why did the Third Congress remove “shall be considered as natural born citizens” and replace it with “shall be considered as citizens of the United States?” In answering this question keep in mind that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 provides that citizens of the United States were eligible to be President if they had that status as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution and for those persons born after the adoption only a natural born citizen was so eligible. Surely, Congress was well aware of what Article II provided and how it distinguished between natural born citizen and citizen of the United States.

Your answers to these two questions will be highly appreciated and will help me understand the merits of your position.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "Mr. Nash,

"In your usual style, you complain much but have no evidence to demonstrate either that what I said is wrong or to support your own position."

Mario, stop pretending, or lying, that what I wrote is NOT irrefutable evidence.
You prevaricate that no evidence was presented when nothing but evidence was presented.

And that is clearly established by the fact that it is so toxic to your dogma that you refuse to even quote a single sentence of the facts I convey, for the umpteenth time!

I know you cannot address those facts but can only obfuscate and deflect as you have once again done for the second or third time with this diversion:

1. Why did the First Congress say in the Naturalization Act of 1790 that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens” rather than just say that they “are natural born citizens?"

You know damn well that I've written a boatload of posts explaining that very thing, (for well over a year) and the last time just a week or so ago I stated that if I answered you yet another time that you would pretend to forget and soon ask the same questions again!

~And Lo and Behold!
Now stop running away from the facts right in front of your face, and face them for once, and pretend that something in your dogma can explain them which you have the courage to share.

But nothing can. So, no answer. Just more rote recitation of your totally disproven dogma, -and same with Slarti.
Two peas in the same delusional doctrinal pod, both refusing to address the reality that I've pointed out to you.
Why so obstinate? Because if jurisdiction means what it actually means then Obama is not a U.S. citizen.

And if "considered as" means what it actually means, then out goes the delusion that natural citizenship is not the consequence of descent and descent alone, and Congress is recognized as having only the authority given to it by the Constitution, not some damn consensus legal opinion that foolishly assigns to Congress the power of Parliament.

Anonymous said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

"I do not need a lecture from you that Calvin was naturalized at birth to be an English natural-born subject. I have been saying that for years and did not just recently learn that."

As too often is the case, your reply is a total fraud and addresses something that I did not write.

1. I did not address you.
2. I did not address the Calvin case.
3. What I did address has never, ever been addressed by you and that was why I shared it.

4. If you actually read what I wrote instead of merely pretending to having done so, you would know these things.
5. You avoided addressing anything that I wrote because to do so would require that you agree with it, which you can't do because that would make it clear that you learned something that you did not know, and...
6. -you did not refute anything I wrote because it is not refutable by anything that you know or conclude.
Instead you stoop to lecturing me about me lecturing you when you know that that was not the case.
That is very devious and dishonest.

Anonymous said...

"For it is not much to make a subject naturalized by the law of England: it should suffice, either place or parents.

If he be born in England it is no matter though his parents be Spaniards, or what you will;

on the other side, if he be born of English parents it skilleth [matters] not though he be born in Spain, or in any other place of the world.
Francis Bacon (1730)

Wilted Rose wrote:
All that was left to make a true natural born subject was jus soli and jus sanguinis together.

Just like the common law said:

“All those whose Parents, at the Time their Birth, were under the actual obedience of our King, and whose Place of Birth was within his Dominions, are natural born Subjects.”

Wilted Rose, you failed to take into account two essential words: "or" and "all".
"either place OR parents" ~NOT BOTH!!!

“ALL...are nbss."
"ALL" does NOT mean "ONLY". The foreign-born English children were also natural born subjects, -by natural law even though not by British common law or statute.

Our federal government dropped the common law "alien" designation ascribed to British children and retained ONLY the natural law fact of membership being passed naturally via descent.

Consult Vattel, he explains the significance of a father's nationality on his children and say not a word about any necessity of native-birth to naturally produce children of one's nation.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

Thank you for confirming that you can neither support your arguments against me nor your own position with any sources, reason, or logic.

All you do here and elsewhere is just blather about your personal opinions which do not amount to a hill of beans.

And no, you are not some genius that the world will soon discover.

MichaelN said...

There is no precedent in English common law which describes, defines or provides for a person who is ALREADY a citizen to be eligible for the elected off of president of a republic.

When the term "natural born subject" is used in English common law, it is to describe a person who is or is considered to be at birth, a subject of a sovereign monarchy.

It is an absolutely ABSURD notion that the learned and wise founders and framers of the US Constitution, with their extremely high degree of education and knowledge of English common law, sourced the term to describe a US citizen's eligibility for POTUS, from the English term which described a subject to a sovereign.

ajtelles said...

huh...

Mario, your conversation with Mr. Nash is interesting, although your patience and coherence is not being reciprocated by Mr. Nash.

It would be nice if constitutional scholars like Mark Levin or Rob Natelson or whomever could add some substance about original sources and their erudite insights about nuances of law as you do, but your erudition and informed insight, Mario, it seems to be wasted on Mr. Nash.

Although, your patient responses to Mr. Nash have produced some clarifying statements about the original intent of the original birthers and which historical works they used to inform themselves about establishing "... a more perfect Union" for themselves and for their posterity, it seems that some of our fellow American "posterity" are more argumentative than they are insightful, and are not very agreeable in their opposition to your defense of the original intent of the original birthers, the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...



Slarti apparently inspired me. The result was this, which I posted in my quarantined thread at the fogblows (total postings now around 1200, most of which are infantile):

My subconscious presented a new fact to my mind that renders Barry an alien. It is probably a silver bullet straight through his unconstitutional socialist heart.

It's basically very simple. It explains the far reaches of what jurisdiction really is.

Do you know what they are? No, you don't. But you will now.
It is the sovereign authority of government to accuse, try, convict, and execute a person for TREASON.

NO ONE WHO IS EXEMPT FROM THAT AUTHORITY IS SUBJECT TO THE FULL JURISDICTION OF THE UNITED STATES!
Obama's father was not subject. He could not have committed nor been accused of treason because America was not his country, -and he was not subject to its political, nor military, nor taxing authority. Thus, neither was any child born to him. Thus no child of his would be covered by the 14th Amendment.

Only American citizens and legal permanent resident immigrants are subject to a charge of treason.
No ambassador, no guest, no visitor, no tourist, no foreign student. They all are outside of American sovereign political authority.

Bottom line is that Barry Jr. was not born as an American citizen regardless of any ignorant presumption that he was.
He may be deemed to be one by executive branch legal authority over policy, but that is not the same as law.
By law, he is an Alien.

Last I checked, no alien is eligible to be President since they are not natural born citizens.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

I of II

We have these quotes from Justice Story in Levy v. McCartee. 31 U.S. 102 (1832):

Lord Coke, in his First Institute, Co. Litt. 8, a, says, that "if an alien cometh into England and hath issue two sons, these two sons are indigenæ, subjects born, because they are born within the realm.
Id. at 113.

For instance in lineal descents; if a father be attaint or be an alien, and hath issue a denizen born, and dies in the life of the grandfather, the grandfather dies seised; the son shall not take, but the land shall escheat. In collateral descents, A. and B. brothers; A. is an alien or attainted, and hath issue to a denizen born;[*] B. purchaseth lands and dies without issue, C. shall not inherit; for A., which was the medius ancestor, or medium deferens of this descent, was incapable. And this is very apparent in this very case; for by this means Patrick, though a denizen born, and the son of an elder brother, is disabled to inherit the earl. A. and B. brothers; A. is an alien or person attainted, and hath issue C. and dies, and C. purchaseth lands and dies without issue; B., his uncle, shall not inherit for the reason beforegoing; for A. is a medius, which was disabled. And if in our case Patrick, the son of Nicholas, although a denizen born, had purchased lands and died without issue, John, his uncle, should not have inherited him, by reason of the disability of Nicholas; and yet Nicholas himself, had he not been an alien, could not immediately have inherited to his son, but yet he is a block in the way of John."Collingwood v. Pace, 1 Vent. 415, 416; S.P. Id. 419, 423. See also S.C. 1 Keble, 671, &c.

Id. at 117

Lord Hale takes notice of this distinction in another part of his argument, in speaking of the disability of an alien, which is general or original to himself in reference to inheritance; and where it is a consequential or consecutive disability, that reflects to an alien from one that must derive by or through him, though he perchance be a natural born subject. Thus he says, "in respect to this incapacity (personal), he doth resemble a personal attaint; yet with this difference. The law looks upon a person attaint as one that it takes notice of; and therefore the eldest son attaint, overliving his father, though he shall not take by descent in respect of his disability, yet he shall hinder the descent of the younger son. But if the eldest son be an alien, the law takes no notice of him; and therefore, as he shall not take by descent, so he shall not impede the descent to his younger brother. A consequential consecutive disability, that reflects to an alien from one that must derive by or through him, though he perchance be a natural born subject (doth impede).[*] As in our case, though Patrick the son of Nicholas be a natural born subject, yet because Nicholas his father was an alien, there is a consecutive impediment derived upon Patrick, whereby he is consequentially disabled to inherit John his uncle: and this consecutive disability is parallel to that which we call corruption of blood, which is a consequent of attainder.

Id. at 118.

But the same doctrine will be found fully recognized by Mr Chancellor Kent in his learned Commentaries, with the additional declaration, that the statute of William III. had never been adopted in New York; though he very properly admits that the enlarged policy of the present day would naturally incline us to a benignant interpretation of the law of descents, in favour of natural born citizens; who were obliged to deduce a title to land from a pure and legitimate source, through an alien ancestor. 2 Kent's Comm. 47, 48, 49. See also Jackson v. Lunn, 3 John. Cas. 109, 12.

Id. at 121.

[*] The word "denizen" is used in the common law in a double sense. It sometimes means a natural born subject; and sometimes a person who, being an alien, has been denizenized by letters patent of the crown. Co. Litt. 129, a. Id. 8 a. Com. Dig. Alien, D. Bannister's Rep. 433.

Id. at 123.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

So, under English common law, children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents were “indigenæ, subjects born.” But they were really “denizen born” and they only “perchance be a natural born subject[s].” Also, a denizen, who was a naturalized subject, was also called a natural born subject. All this shows that the English common law naturalized children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents and it did so at birth, calling them either denizens or natural born subjects. There is no doubt that these denizen born natural born subjects were not true natural born subjects, but only considered and deemed as such by the English common law. Now we can understand why the old dictionaries quoted by you called children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents “denizens.” Nomo-lexikon: A Law-dictionary : Interpreting Such ... Thomas Blount – 1670 ("...that if one born out of the king's allegiance come and dwell in England, his children, begotten here, are not aliens, but denizens."). Posted June 30, 2014, at 12:01 AM.

Justice Gray in his Wong Kim Ark distinguished two classes of citizens. Justice Gray told us twice of this distinction. The first time he said:

“The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle.' Page 22, note. This paper, without Mr. Binney's name, and with the note in a less complete form, and not containing the passage last cited, was published (perhaps from the first edition) in the American Law Register for February, 1854. 2 Am. Law Reg. 193, 203, 204.”

Wong Kim Ark, at 665-66.

Later in his opinion, Justice Gray, in speaking about a child born in the United States to alien parents again said that an alien’s

“child, as said by Mr. Binney in his essay before quoted, 'If born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle.'”

Id. at 694.

Having read what Justice Story told us in Levy about the denizen born natural born subject, who was perchance a natural born subject, we can better understand what Horace Binney and Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark meant. Indeed, children born in the country to alien parents being just as much citizens as natural born citizen children born in the country to citizen parents, were through naturalization at birth considered or deemed to be natural born citizens, but they were not true natural born citizens, for the former needed naturalization at birth while the latter did not. The English common law called these naturalized subjects at birth denizens or natural born subjects. American common law did no such thing, for under that law they were aliens and in need of naturalization by Acts of Congress or treaties or later by the Fourteenth Amendment. Minor v. Happersett (1875). See also the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 (Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization after birth).

Unknown said...

I agree, Mario.

Well done.

ajtelles said...

In other words...
dittos & whew...

Thanks Wilted Rose for your previous Blackstone comments, and thanks Mario for your current July 1, 2014 at 8:57 PM 2 part tutorial on July 1, 2014 at 8:57 PM.

Now, Mario, can you put the following into "...what does THAT mean" language so that the majority of readers can understand the essential point?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

>> "Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

I of II

We have these quotes from Justice Story in Levy v. McCartee. 31 U.S. 102 (1832):

Lord Coke, in his First Institute, Co. Litt. 8, a, says, that "if an alien cometh into England and hath issue two sons, these two sons are indigenæ, subjects born, because they are born within the realm.

Id. at 113.

For instance in lineal descents;
if a father be attaint or be an alien,
and hath issue a denizen born,
and dies in the life of the grandfather,
the grandfather dies seised;
the son shall not take,
but the land shall escheat.

In collateral descents,
A. and B. brothers;
A. is an alien or attainted,
and hath issue to a denizen born;[*]
B. purchaseth lands and dies without issue,
C. shall not inherit;
for A., which was the medius ancestor,
or medium deferens of this descent,
was incapable.

And this is very apparent in this very case;
for by this means Patrick,
though a denizen born,
and the son of an elder brother,
is disabled to inherit the earl.

A. and B. brothers;
A. is an alien or person attainted,
and hath issue C. and dies,
and C. purchaseth lands and dies without issue;
B., his uncle, shall not inherit for the reason beforegoing;
for A. is a medius, which was disabled.
And if in our case Patrick,
the son of Nicholas,
although a denizen born,
had purchased lands and died without issue,
John, his uncle, should not have inherited him,
by reason of the disability of Nicholas;
and yet Nicholas himself,
had he not been an alien,
could not immediately have inherited to his son,
but yet he is a block in the way of John."

Collingwood v. Pace,
1 Vent. 415, 416;
S.P. Id. 419, 423.
See also S.C. 1 Keble, 671, &c. "


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Of course, most of us can probably understand the gist of the first paragraph that I opened up above, but I mean, can you put it in a way that a person sitting across the kitchen table from you would say, "oh, yes, NOW I understand" what Justice Story meant in quoting Lord Coke and and the "A. and B. Brothers" references and etc.

Thanks,

PS.

Wilted Rose, this kind of coherent response is what I ALWAYS expect from Mario, and some day the rest of the legal world will recognize not just the historical accuracy but also the relevancy to this generation of "WE the Posterity" of the 1787 "WE the People.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

"American common law did no such thing, for under that law they were aliens and in need of naturalization by Acts of Congress or treaties or later by the Fourteenth Amendment."

And yet there was no national common law. There was only State common law since only the States determined citizenship and they each had their own provisions.
It may be true, and i suspect it is, that they all continued with the never-changed native-birth citizenship rule but they were not under some national-umbrella rule controlling their individual authority.

"Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization after birth."

That is one interpretation of the nationality acts, but not the most logical one since it extrapolates what was not said rather that recognizing the limitation of what they did say.

They said the children of the naturalized, if dwelling in the U.S., were citizens. And who was that distinction drawn against?

-The foreign born children who, as young people, did not want to emigrate to America and so stayed behind with their grandparents or aunts and uncles.

As written, no other conclusion can be made, -only that just such a contradistinction was being draw against the children in the U.S. and those still living in Europe.

That distinction does not address whether or not their children in America, if born here, were in need of the father's naturalization in order to be citizens.
If it was universal accepted as it had always been, that native-birth conferred citizenship, then those children, not being foreign-born aliens, were already naturalized at birth and not in need of their father's naturalization for citizenship.

Thus they were not separately addressed by the distinction drawn since they were already citizens.
Who can disagree with such a clear and evident fact?

"naturalization by Acts of Congress"
No one in any State was naturalized by Acts of Congress until the Civil Rights Act.
They were naturalized by State or federal magistrates in a court of record, having nothing to do with Congress.

“The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle."

We note that he was correct to say "just as much a "citizen" and not "just as much a natural born citizen as a natural born citizen"
That would have been insane.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

I of II

You continue to exhibit your pathetic ignorance time and time again with no mercy for your audience.

At the ratification of the Constitution in 1788, state citizens also became citizens of the United States. After Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, the states no longer had any authority to make citizens of the United States. Rather, they continued to make just state citizens of persons born on their territory. Those state citizens were not citizens of the United States, unless they also satisfied the requirements of Acts of Congress. The James Madison Administration in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811 made this point more than clear, but you just have a reading comprehension problem. I have been through this at length. With the states not having authority over national citizenship, it is only expected that either national common law or Acts of Congress would apply to define that national citizenship.

Under our Constitution, national common law defined a natural born citizen while statutory law of Congress and treaties defined a citizen of the United States, either at birth or after birth.

You insist that there was no national common law, but only state common law. This is a ridiculous statement in many way. Just to highlight one of those ways, would you please entertain us by telling us which state provided the common law of which Minor spoke and which it said defined the natural born citizens as the children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the children's birth and that all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners?" Now this should not be a difficult question for you to answer, for there were 37 state in the Union then. Surely you will be able to identify at least one of those states whose common law was the common law mentioned by Minor. Please do tell all.

You said regarding my interpretation of the early naturalization acts which is that they treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization after birth: “That is one interpretation of the nationality acts, but not the most logical one since it extrapolates what was not said rather that recognizing the limitation of what they did say.” You should learn how to read. The Act “did say” that the children of aliens so naturalized shall also be considered as citizens. That is a universal statement covering all children of aliens so naturalized. There is no need to read into the statute or expect more as you and your Obot pals like to do. Do you really think that Congress was so stupid like you that they just forgot to tell us that they were only talking about children born out of the United States? Sure, Congress just forgot that little detail. But they did not forget the detail of place of birth when they told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were considered as citizens. Do you not understand that as far as Congress was concerned, it did not matter where the child was born if the child was born to alien parents? Congress accepted the ancient rule that children followed the condition of their parents regardless of where they were born (partus sequitur patrem).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

You again said, regarding the naturalization acts: “Thus they were not separately addressed by the distinction drawn since they were already citizens. Who can disagree with such a clear and evident fact?” This is really good. You make as much sense as the court in Lynch v. Clarke. Talk about begging the question. So the act did not apply to children born in the United States because they were already citizens. And by what authority may that be? Additionally, if the acts by their very text told us that such children could not be citizens unless their parents first naturalized, how can you make such an absurd statement? Furthermore, how can you make such a ridiculous statement in light of Minor telling us that under the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution, children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth were not only citizens like their parents, but also natives or natural born citizens, and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” in need of naturalization after birth under Acts of Congress or treaties? In light of the new Fourteenth Amendment which did not exist when early Congress passed its naturalization acts, Minor added that “there have been doubts” whether children born in the United States to alien parents were citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment, clearly a reference to The Slaughterhouse Cases (1872) which said that such children were not citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment (so much for your “they were already citizens” memo which the Supreme Court did not receive from you). If those children born in the United States to alien parents “were already citizens” as you and Lynch said, then what The Slaughterhouse Cases said and what the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor explained make absolutely no sense which tells me that you again are the one who makes no sense and never will unless you abandon your family agenda.

You keep repeating your same comment that Congress did not have the power to naturalize anyone and that only the states did. Your statement is so pathetically ignorant that I am tired of looking at it and reading the words that you type here.

Now I know that you will not address anything that I said here in any real way. You will just ignore it, whine about how I misrepresented your imbecile position, or that you have already answered it all, but I just do not understand you.

MichaelN said...

h20oflife said....
"No one in any State was naturalized by Acts of Congress until the Civil Rights Act.
They were naturalized by State or federal magistrates in a court of record, having nothing to do with Congress."
-------------------
Garbage!

First US Civil Rights Act = 1866

First US Naturalization Act = 1790

The first naturalization act of 1790 was BEFORE the first Civil Rights Act of 1866

United States Congress, “An act to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization” (March 26, 1790).

Here is where people in states of US of A were naturalized by an act of Congress.
Quote:
"That any Alien being a free white person, who shall have resided within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States for the term of two years, may be admitted to become a citizen thereof .....

....and thereupon such person shall be considered as a Citizen of the United States. And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States."

You are WRONG AGAIN!

i.e. EVERY alien who was naturalized in the US prior to 1866 and as at and after 1790, was by way of an act of the US Congress.

Just accept it!

Unknown said...

h2ooflife,

Instead of struggling with your own interpretations, find out what it actually meant at the time.

Judge Samuel Roberts' "Digest of Selected British Statutes..." (Roberts' Digest) On page 26 he says, "The children of aliens, born within the U.S. are aliens; they do not acquire citizenship by birth". (1817)

The Congress in 1845:
Congressman Saunders, in his report on Naturalization said:
"First, the act of 1802, which repeals all former acts, ... It further provides for the children of aliens, whether born within or out of the United States ..."
The Congressional Globe [Appendix., 28th Cong., 2d sess., House, p. 129]. (1845)

Children of aliens, born in the US were aliens. If they were living in the US at the time of their father's naturalization (if they hadn't been sent back to the "old country" for education or whatever) then they became citizens too. They remained aliens if they weren't living in the US.
If they came back to the US before they reached the age of 21, then they were considered citizens at that point because they were then "dwelling in the United States".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

And let us not forget Nathan Dane (December 29, 1752 – February 15, 1835). Nathan Dane is the Father of American Jurisprudence. He was an American lawyer and statesman. He was a central figure in drafting the Northwest Ordinance and introduced an amendment to that ordinance which prohibited slavery in the Northwest Territory. In February 1787, Dane proposed a resolution which authorized the Convention in Philadelphia to amend the Articles of Confederation which resolution was adopted and which Convention produced the Constitution. Dane also played an important role in getting the State of New York to ratify the Constitution, informing that there would be later amendments to it which we know became the Bill of Rights. He served as a Senator of the state of Massachusetts from 1790 to 1792 and from 1794 to 1797, and even served on a commission that reviewed and codified that state’s laws.

Dane clearly explained in 1824, which is when the Naturalization Act of 1802 was in effect, that a child born in the United States to alien parents was alien born and followed the citizenship of the father:

“And now if an American citizen goes abroad and marries an alien wife, and have a child by her in a foreign country, that child is not alien, but may inherit his estate in the United States. But if an American woman, a citizen, go abroad and marry an alien husband, and have a child by him, so born, that child is an alien, and cannot inherit her estate in the United States. And upon the same principles, if an English subject comes into the United States, and marries an American wife, and has a child by her born here: it cannot inherit her estate here, because this child follows the allegiance of its father, and may inherit his estate in England.”

4 Dane’s Abridgement, ch. 131; art. 2, § 8, 701 (1824).

So, apart from how the James Madison Administration interpreted and applied the Naturalization Act of 1802 in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811, in Dane we have the word from another Founding era authoritative source publishing his Founding era understanding in 1824. What Dane described in his Abridgement was the American national common law rule, as reflected in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, and 1802, and that rule was that a child born in the United States to alien parents was alien born and in need of naturalization.

As I said numerous times before, this evidence completely destroys Jack Maskell 2012 Congressional Research Service report that he presented to Congress in which he argues that the Framers would have considered a child born in the United States to alien parents a natural born citizen because such a child was a born citizen and not in need of naturalization after birth. First, we can see sources such as the James Madison Administration and Nathan Dane that such a child was not a born citizen in the minds of the Framers. Second, we can see that such a child needed naturalization after birth in order to become a “citizen of the United States,” which by Maskell’s own concession, means that the child was not a natural born citizen. Check mate for Jack Maskell.

This leaves us with the one and only definition of a natural born citizen found under that same national common law which confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Unknown said...

h2ooflife said...

It may be true, and i suspect it is, that they all continued with the never-changed native-birth citizenship rule ..."


Find out for sure.
New York definitely did not follow English Law.

"By an act of the legislature of New York, passed on the 27th of February 1788, chap. 90, sect. 38, it is enacted, 'that none of the statutes of England or Great Britain shall be considered as laws of this state."
Levy v M'cartee 31 US 6 (1832)
(US Supreme Court)

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

I do not believe you have properly understood the case of Levy v. M’Cartee, 31 U.S. 102 (1832). The court explained that New York by its constitution of 1777 selectively adopted the common and statute law of England until abrogated by its legislature. Such adoption brought into New York the English statute 11 and 12 William III, chap. 6 which was favorable to the lessors of the plaintiffs who wanted to establish that they could inherit lands located in New York.

New York in 1786 passed a statute that provided that in all cases of descents not covered by that act, “the common law shall govern” (act of 23rd of February 1786, chap. 12). The court ruled that since the statute did not refer to any particular common law, the legislature meant the common law of England.

In 1788, New York passed a statute in which it provided that no English statute would have any further effect in New York (act of 27th of February 1788, chap. 90, sect. 38). The court explained the clear distinction between the common law of England and the statutory law of that nation. The court ruled, contrary to the argument of the lessors of the plaintiff, that New York’s repeal of the English statutes did just that and no more, meaning that those English statutes and their substantive content were gone as part of the law of New York and their contents did not somehow make their way back into the common law of New York. This was a major blow to the lessors of the plaintffs because, while they would have been able to inherit under the content of the English statute 11 and 12 William III, chap. 6, they were not able to inherit under the ruled of inheritance existing in the English common law.

The court then applied “purely local law” which the court explained was the English common law. Under that common law, the court ruled that the lessors of the plaintiff were barred from inheriting because they did not take directly from any citizen, but rather would have taken directly from an alien which was not allowed under the common law of England.

Hence, while the statute law of England had no further effect in New York, its common law did and under that common law, the lessors of the plaintiffs lost the case, meaning they did not get the inheritance of lands located in New York.

But do not misunderstand me. New York could have continued to apply the English common law in resolving matters of state citizenship. But any state citizen so made under that English common law was not necessarily recognized as a national natural born citizen or even a citizens of the United States, unless the person also satisfied the national common law which defined a natural born citizen or an Act of Congress which defined who were the citizens of the United States. The James McClure citizenship case of 1811 (referring to Virginia) and the Dred Scott case contain very good quotes which I posted here which explain the difference between a state citizen and a federal citizen and that being the former did not necessarily make one the latter.

Unknown said...

Yes, Mario, I think I did understand Levy v. M’Cartee.

My position is that, in England, birthright subjects (children of aliens born in the realm) were "naturalized" and born denizens, made so by a general letter patent of the King, and not by common law.

Any statement of the King could be declared his letter patent. Denization didn't require that each person had to receive denization individually. Denization could be done in a general form, similar to our naturalization statutes that naturalize a person at birth.

No. XLV. First Charter of King Charles I.

"...as of the said denizens born, or to be born within the power or allegiance of us, our predecessors, heirs or successors, whose father is, or shall be an alien..."

"In witness whereof, we have caused these our letters to be made patents. Witness ourself at Westminster, the fifth day of September, in the sixteenth year of our reign."
(1640-41?)

http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=46786&strquery=denizen%20born

Denizens could Only be made by the Crown's letter patent. Since the children of aliens born in the realm were considered denizens, the statement making them so has to be in the Crown's statements/charters/letters patent somewhere, and not in the Statutes of the Realm.

Denization is the granting of Subject status, in a limited way, to those born aliens.

Example:
"If an English Merchant that lives beyond Sea, marries there, and has a Child by his Wife, and afterwards dies, this Child is born a Denizen, and shall inherit, notwithstanding the Wife was an Alien. Cro. Car. 605 March 91."
http://books.google.com/books?id=4s4DAAAAQAAJ&pg=PT13&dq=%22born+a+denizen%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=hWazU-fND5CNqgbCu4L4CQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBjgU#v=onepage&q=%22born%20a%20denizen%22&f=false

The children of aliens, born in the realm, were denizens, and in my opinion were not subjects under the common law. They couldn't be, and still be referred to as denizens.

Denizens had to pay the same duties as aliens did. This tells me that they were still somewhat considered aliens, but had been granted limited rights by the Crown.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

In my comment of July 1, 2014, 8:57 PM, I posted a quote from Justice Story in Levy v. McCartee. 31 U.S. 102 (1832):

“Lord Coke, in his First Institute, Co. Litt. 8, a, says, that ‘if an alien cometh into England and hath issue two sons, these two sons are indigenæ, subjects born, because they are born within the realm.’”

Id. at 113.

This quote is important not only in seeing and understanding the difference between English common law and American national common law in how they defined subjectship and national citizenship, but in also additionally confirming that the Framers used Emer de Vattel as a source upon whom they relied for their definition of an Article II “natural born citizen.”

The ancient rule of partus sequitur patrem (children follow the condition of their parents), which was the natural law/law of nations rule was adopted by Samuel von Pufendorf in, The Whole Duty of Man According to the Laws of Nature (William Tooke trans., Ian Hunter & David Saunders, eds., Liberty Fund 2003) Book II, Chapter 6 (1691)(calls the children of the citizens “natives or indigenous”) and Emer de Vattel in Section 212 of The Law of Nations (1758)(calls the children of the citizens in French, “Les naturels, ou indigenes” which in 1760 was translated into English as “The natives, or indigenes” and in 1797 was anonymously translated to “natives, or natural-born citizens”). Hence, under Vattel, citizen parents’ children born to them in their own country became not only “citizens,” but also “natural born citizens.”

The Obots insist that Vattel’s writings are not relevant to interpreting the natural born citizen clause because the Framers wrote the Constitution in 1787 and the English translation which for the first time uses the clause “natural-born citizen” did not come out until 1797. There is much evidence that shows that their position has no merit. Here we have even more such evidence. Given Lord Coke writing “indigenae, subjects born,” we can see that they are mistaken. Coke used the Latin plural of indigenous which is indigenae, which is a noun (masculine) which also means native. See http://www.latin-dictionary.net/definition/23407/indigena-indigenaer for the meaning of indigenae. Indigenae can also be used as an adjective, but then it would take on a feminine meaning. See http://www.latin-dictionary.net/definition/23407/indigena-indigenae . (Coke was referring to sons.) The French word for the Latin plural indigenae is “indige’nes” which is what Vattel wrote in French. See http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0444182/ .

Coke separated indigenae from subjects born with a comma. This separation and the context of the statement demonstrate that the words had an equivalent meaning. In other words, indigenae meant the same thing as subjects born and they were both used as nouns to represent a person. The early English translators translated Vattel to say “[t]he natives, or indigenes.” Coke told us that indigenes (is equated to the Latin indigenae) also meant subject born. Hence, natives and indigenes had the same meaning and they both meant subject born. Vattel called membership in a nation with a republican form of government “citizen” and not subject. The new states and the Framers chose to call members of the states and of the new republic “citizens” and not “subjects.” Hence, when the English translators at first used indigenes, they were saying the same thing as natives or subjects born or given that in America we now had citizens and not subjects, the same as natives or natural born citizens.

Many of the Framers’ generation were fluent in French. They could read Vattel in French. They could also read it in English. Regardless of what language they read it in, they knew that Vattel in Section 212 defined the natives, or indigenes, or natural born citizens, which all meant the same thing, the children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Unknown said...

"Declarations of the Stamp Act Congress
October 24, 1765

Resolutions of the Virginia House of Burgesses

(snip)

Resolved, That by two royal Charters, granted by King James the First, the Colonists aforesaid are declared entitled to all Liberties, Privileges, and Immunities of Denizens and natural Subjects, to all Intents and Purposes, as if they had been abiding and born within the Realm of England."


http://oll.libertyfund.org/pages/1765-resolutions-of-the-stamp-act-congress

I am trying to find those royal charters. I want to determine the difference between "denizens" and "natural subjects" who were born there.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

In your comment to Mr. Nash, you said: “New York definitely did not follow English Law. ‘By an act of the legislature of New York, passed on the 27th of February 1788, chap. 90, sect. 38, it is enacted, 'that none of the statutes of England or Great Britain shall be considered as laws of this state.’ Levy v M'cartee 31 US 6 (1832) (US Supreme Court).”

You said that New York did not follow “English law.” You did not distinguish between statutory law and common law. I explained to you that New York only rejected the English statutes, not English common law. My comments to you have nothing to do with the difference between denizens and natural born subjects and how the Levy v. M’Cartee decision shows that children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents were “denizen born,” . . . “perchance natural born subjects. You and I both agree on my interpretation of that aspect of the Levy case.

Now you made another statement. You said that a person could be made a denizen only by the King’s letter patent. You also said: “The children of aliens, born in the realm, were denizens, and in my opinion were not subjects under the common law. They couldn't be, and still be referred to as denizens.” I do not agree with these statements. Levy also explained that denizen was used in the common law in a double sense. It said it meant both a natural born subject and a person who was an alien and denizenized by the King’s letters patents. In fact, the Court referred to children born in the dominions to alien parents as both “denizen born” and as “natural born subjects.” The point is that these children were alien born and made by the common law into natural born subjects and by the King’s patent into denizens. So it was not only the King’s patent which gave these children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents subject status, but also the common law which did more than the King’s patent, for it called them natural born subjects, although they were still denizens.

The next questions that we have to investigate is when did a child born in the King’s dominion to alien parents come under the benefit of the common law and thereby become called a natural born subject and when did he come under the benefit of the King’s patent and become called a denizen? After all, that child was still alien born but in one case called a natural born subject and in the other case called a denizen. Why did the common law call that child a natural born subject, but the King called him a denizen? What also has to be kept in mind is that it was Parliament that naturalized aliens to be natural born subjects, not the King’s patent. It appears that Parliament came into the picture only if the child was not able to gain the status of a subject born through the common law. What needs to be understood is that if a child born in the dominion to alien parents fell under the King’s patent, he was called a denizen, and given the limited rights that such patent gave him. Under such circumstances, he would prefer to be naturalized by Parliament which gave him more rights. But if he fell under the common law he was called a natural born subject and thereby did not need Parliament to naturalize him. By what mechanism did such a child fall under the common law or under the King’s patent?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Like I said here, Slartibartfast is a fraud. Clearly, so are some of his pals at Fogbow. They have posted there in response to what I have asked Slartibartfast here the Third Circuit Court of Appeals ordering in the Kerchner v. Obama and Congress that I show cause why I should not have to pay defense counsel fees for appealing to that higher court the lower court’s dismissal of the complaint on the issue of standing. When I filed my brief to the appeals court in response to its order to show cause, explaining that there was no U.S. Supreme Court precedent on the issue of whether someone like my clients had standing to file an action based on Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 (the natural born citizen clause) and that standing is such a controversial doctrine with the issue many times resolved (not resolved) by 5-4 decisions by the U.S. Supreme Court, it discharged its order to show cause and assessed no damages against me.

So why are the Fogbow posters frauds like Slartibartfast? They refer to a case that dismissed my clients’ action on standing and never got to the merits of the matter. They also do not tell the public that the court, after hearing from me, did not assess any damages. Now, can anyone tell me what any of that has to do with the questions that I asked Slartibartfast here? Nothing. I rest my case.

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose said...

New York definitely did not follow English Law.

"By an act of the legislature of New York, passed on the 27th of February 1788,... it is enacted, 'that none of the statutes of England or Great Britain shall be considered as laws of this state."

nash wrote: "It may be true, and i suspect it is, that they all continued with the never-changed native-birth citizenship rule ..."

Notice that I did not say "law". I didn't address any law. I referred to unwritten law, a customary "rule" dating back over 500 years. Native-birth was accepted as being grounds to be deemed a citizen.
But not a natural citizen since that required being a citizen by descent. But the alien-born of immigrants were accepted as born citizens by the customary "rule" of the common law.

The New York law was not in 1790 but 1831, forty years, two generations later. The common law continued, as I said, until altered by State laws or Constitutions.

"Judge Samuel Roberts' "Digest of Selected British Statutes..." (Roberts' Digest) On page 26 he says, "The children of aliens, born within the U.S. are aliens; they do not acquire citizenship by birth". (1817)"

Your mistake is in not knowing if he was a State judge or a federal judge. His attitude could not possibly be true in regard to all States but could be, and I've always asserted it to be, true regarding the policy of the executive branch of the national government which rejected dual-citizenship and dual-allegiance.

The States did not reject dual citizenship universally since that was an international matter and not an intra-State matter that concerned them.

"Congressman Saunders, in his report on Naturalization said:
"First, the act of 1802, which repeals all former acts, ... It further provides for the children of aliens, whether born within or out of the United States ..."

I don't recall off-hand the wording of the act, but believe it was the same as the earlier act which mentioned nothing about native-born children. My presumption is that they were ignored as already being citizens since the common law citizenship continued in most or all of the States.

No one can reasonably look at the statute's language and presume that there was not a hint of ambiguity which resulted in uncertainty in today's era.

But some clarity can be gained by looking at original State Constitutions. I've read three, and they all included native-birth common law citizenship. To suppose that in 1789, over a century of tradition of native-birth citizenship vanished off the face of the North American continent would be the height of absurdity.

Unknown said...

Frtfest is a liar and propagandist. A nash is just in love with his own opinion, a small brain and massive ego...i do not need to interpret the early naturalisation acts as they speak for themselves,born outside of us to us citizens equals a citizen of the us. Born in us to us citizens equals a us natural born citizen, the only ones eligible for office of President after adoption. I do not know mario can read their junk comments over and over again

Anonymous said...

Mario opined: "At the ratification of the Constitution in 1788, state citizens also became citizens of The United States."

Yes and no. They became citizens of a new and improved United States, with a more powerful central government. What that government did not have was any authority over citizenship.
What it did have was the obligation to write a new rule to make the nationalization rules of the several States uniform nation wide.
And what did the new rule require be applicable nation-wide? Being white, being good, and being a resident for s certain number of years. Nothing more.

All of the rest flowed from natural law. Derivative citizenship for the children of the naturalized was citizenship via descent by the natural law of membership. They became what they father had become; an American.

"After Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, the states no longer had any authority to make citizens of the United States."

"No longer"??? When exactly did they previously have that authority? Never! Their citizens entered into a compact of unity, a Union. In it, all States recognized the citizens of all other States as long as they comported with the national standard rule. "Whites only, and of good character." Any citizen recognized by all of the States was a national citizen as well, -a citizen of the union.

But the U.S. Justice and State Departments were not constitutionally required to honor State citizenship that included dual-citizenship due to native-birth and foreign parentage.
That divergence affected essentially no one except a few rare exceptions who were transported out of the US as babies or young children and raised abroad. Otherwise, no one cared since it impacted no one.

"Rather, they continued to make just state citizens of persons born on their territory. Those state citizens were not citizens of the United States, unless they also satisfied the requirements of Acts of Congress."

Your perspective is backwards. I'll rephrase: Those (naturalized) state citizens were citizens of the United States, unless they did not satisfied the requirements of the uniform naturalization rule."

A "rule" is not a law. It is a guideline for the States to follow. It is not an exercise of national authority over the citizenship of foreigners.
They naturalize themselves via their oath. No power of government can do that for them. Like marriage vows, the officiator does not make two people married. Their vows do.

All Congress could do was make a rule as to who would be allowed to take that vow and swear that oath. They had no authority to force foreigners to do so, nor to force the States to force them to do so. It was 100% voluntary.

The foreign man naturalized himself via his pledge of full allegiance and total renunciation. He became a new political creature via that renunciation and pledged loyalty & obedience.

Anonymous said...

"...the Court referred to children born in the dominions to alien parents as both “denizen born” and as “natural born subjects.” The point is that these children were alien born and made by the common law into natural born subjects and by the King’s patent into denizens."

Having looked up the meaning of denizen some time back, I learned that it simply means inhabitant in common vernacular.
That seems to mean that immigrants were inhabitants but not in possession of the legal rights of subjects, inheritance in particular.
The King's letters patent could bestow such a foreigner with a minimum of rights but not the full rights of subjects. Only almighty Parliament could do that, -at a steep price.
The children of denizens were denizens also via habitation but were more, being subjects also as Mario points out, via common law.

"the Court referred to children born in the dominions to alien parents as both “denizen born” and as “natural born subjects.”
That meant that they were inhabitant-born and not foreign-born. That was not a reference to any political status, just residency.

"The point is that these children were alien born and made by the common law into natural born subjects and by the King’s patent into denizens."
Almost. The fathers were made denizens by the King's patents, not the children. The fathers, being foreigners, had no natural rights as Englishmen, but their endenization gave them some rights. Their children inherited that status and more via common law.
"The next questions that we have to investigate is when did a child born in the King’s dominion to alien parents come under the benefit of the common law and thereby become called a natural born subject"

As I've previously suggested, it must stem from the conundrum resulting from the Norman conquest of England in 1066-1068. How do you unify Frenchmen's children with Englishman's children?
Only through the commonality of both being born within the King's expanded realm. Native-born, instead of subject-born. As like what happened with Scotland.

At that point, they had to abandon nationality based on descent, -based on the national blood of the father since France & England were not like identical sisters but quite foreign to each other.

But they both had native birth in common, and thus it must have become the common law.

Unknown said...

Mario, I think our hint may be here ...

Blackstone said:
"The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural born subjects (8), and entitled to all the privileges of such." The (8) is a citation to Coke on Calvin's case. 7 C. 18a which states:

""... Now what a subject born is, appeareth at large by that which hath been said de ligeantia (allegiance) : and so likewise de subdito dato ( subject made), of a donaison(gift): for that is the right name, so called, because his legitimation is given unto him; for if you derive denizen from deins nee(born within), one born within the obedience or ligeance of the King, then such a one should be all one with a natural-born subject. And it appeareth before out of the laws of King W. 1. of what antiquity the making of denizens by the King of England hath been."

To me, it looks like Coke is saying that denizens who are born within the realm should be considered natural born subjects.

Could that be where the conflation of denizen and natural born subject came from?

Slartibartfast said...

This is my final post here (well, it's about 4 or 5 posts, but you know what I mean). Say what you want about me, I'm done. If I've got anything to say to you (or more likely about you) it will be on the "Mario Apuzzo" thread at the Fogbow.


Wilted Rose,

I was working on a response when the blog gods demanded it as a sacrifice (lost it in a crash), but suffice it to say that while the Framers of the 14th Amendment don't state their intent as clearly as I might like, I still feel that what I said was in keeping with the spirit of their words. You say you do your own research, so I will let you research their intent yourself and I challenge you to read it with a view to how it can be used against your own position (I always try to do this---it's a good way to sharpen your arguments and avoid mistakes) before you make up your mind.

At one point, you seemed to have an open mind, so let me ask you this: how many of the charges I making in my following posts can you refute with arguments that would convince an objective observer? Do you really think that someone who's arguments are so constantly and thoroughly dishonest has any credibility at all?

MichaelN,

I seriously doubt you will ever do a single thing of any significance whatsoever unless you give up birfing. If you don't, I can only hope your karma comes back to you tenfold.

Art,

Grow up.

Adrien,

Have you learned anything about how doing research strengthens your arguments and prevents you from looking foolish in your time at the Fogbow?

Mario,

Once again, you have misrepresented things. This was posed on the Fogbow:

"Because we have decided that this appeal is frivolous, we will order counsel for Appellants to show cause why just damages and costs should not be imposed. Federal Rule of Appellate Procedure 38 provides that “[i]f a court of appeals determines that an appeal is frivolous, it may, after a separately filed motion or notice from the court and reasonable opportunity to respond, award just damages and single or double costs to the appellee.” “The purpose of an award of attorneys' fees under Rule 38 is to compensate appellees who are forced to defend judgments awarded them in the trial court from appeals that are wholly without merit, and to preserve the appellate court calendar for cases worthy of consideration.” Huck v. Dawson, 106 F.3d 45, 52 (3d Cir.1997) (internal quotation and citation omitted). “Damages [under Rule 38] are awarded by the court in its discretion ․ as a matter of justice to the appellee.” Beam v. Bauer, 383 F.3d 106, 108 (3d Cir.2004) (internal quotation and citation omitted). An “important purpose [of a damages award] is to discourage litigants from unnecessarily wasting their opponents' time and resources.” Nagle v. Alspach, 8 F.3d 141, 145 (3d Cir.1993)..... Appellants had ample notice that this appeal had no merit. They should have been aware that we rejected almost identical claims in Berg, as have courts in other jurisdictions.... Examination of this precedent would have made it “obvious to a reasonable attorney that an appeal from the District Court's order was frivolous, [as no] law or facts ․ support a conclusion that the District Court judge had erred.

It was not in response to anything written here or elsewhere, but on the anniversary of its issuance. You are, of course, right that you ultimately were not sanctioned, but that doesn't change the fact that, while you didn't get fined, the court clearly and unequivocally called your appeal "frivolous" (using the word 11 times, in fact). In other words, you didn't convince the court that your appeal wasn't frivolous, you convinced the court not to sanction you for your frivolous appeal. Also, a lawyer like yourself should understand that "standing" IS one of the merits of a legal case even if you aren't good enough to figure out how to file a case that you have standing to argue.

Part I

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

Part II

cont...

As for my response to anything you ask, why should I bother? You are just going to misrepresent what I said and generate a prolix response filled with begging the question, cherry picked quotes, logical errors, other fallacies and outright lies. Every single argument you have made on this site (and anywhere else I've seen) contains at least one, and usually several, logical fallacies. Both Bryan and myself have pointed many of them.

You deny the plain words of James Madison while attributing words to him based on a pseudonym he used years before. It would be the equivalent of claiming President Obama commented on your blog because someone posted here using the pseudonym Barry Soetoro.

You deny that a definition requires both a necessary and a sufficient condition because the justice you are quoting expressed doubts as to the former.

You make false statements and misrepresent what I've said regarding set theory, heedless of the fact that I've proven that several of the things you've said are incontrovertibly false.

You deny that Minor was a case about voting rights while Wong Kim Ark was the seminal case on citizenship because that would completely devalue the authority you've chosen to misrepresent as the centerpiece of your argument.

You ignore that Wong Kim Ark quoted the piece of Minor about which doubts were expressed (instead characterizing Wong as citing Minor "approvingly") before proceeding to rule that those same specific doubts were well founded.

You ignore that Wong came after Minor and therefore supersedes it (in particular, in the area in which the court in Wong noted that the court in Minor expressed doubts).

You ignore that the court in Wong (as well as the court in Lynch v. Clark) specifically studied the issue of how citizenship is acquired in depth while the court in Minor clearly did not---otherwise they would not have expressed "doubts".

You ignore the court in Minor equating the words "subject" and "citizen". Something the express much greater certainty about than your money quote, not to mention it being critical to establish they are the same to validate the citations of legal authority necessary to explore the privileges of citizenship (to determine if voting was one of them). This is something, in contrast to the acquisition of citizenship (which was not at issue in Minor), that the court would have researched in great detail.

You have consistently and willfully misrepresented my arguments---at one point going so far as to say that I wasn't allowed to correct an error I had made and admitted to.

You ignore the dissent of Chief Justice Fuller, which makes it clear that he believed Mr. Wong to be eligible to the presidency.

You ignore the argument of the State of California, which clearly implies that they believed Mr. Wong to be eligible to the presidency.

You ignore all of the many instances when you are proven wrong. Such as when you said the child of transient aliens was never considered a citizen and I provided an indisputable counterexample (Jessica Lynch and the ruling of Lynch v. Clark which explicitly considered such children eligible for the presidency).

You ignore all of the lower court precedents declaring President Obama to be a natural born citizen and saying things like "frivolous" and "little to no probative value" in regard to birther cases.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

Part III

cont...

You constantly refer to the Minor decision as unanimous, knowing full well that it derives no additional legal authority thereby, and, in fact, has less legal authority (by virtue of being older) than the split decision in Wong.

You shamelessly refer to the concurrence to Scott v. Sandford, regardless of the fact that the ruling is considered one of the worst in the history of the SCOTUS and was later overturned by Constitutional Amendment (as, in addition, was Minor v. Happersett).

You assert that the Founders interpretation of Vattel (or the mistranslated, cherry picked piece of it you want to exalt) was that of an English translation (and a poor one, according to a French lawyer and translator) made a decade after the Constitution was ratified, rather than a more accurate translation of the original French in which the Founders would have read it. You simply refuse to admit that the Founders would have read Vattel as saying "blood relatives" rather than parents (making it clear that the group plural did not mean all blood relatives) rather than "parents" or "indigenous" rather than "natural born citizen".

You assert that Vattel was a significant reference for the Founders on matters of citizenship when, in fact, the only citation to Vattel on the subject of citizenship ever made by the SCOTUS was in a concurrence to one of the most egregious rulings the court ever made---a ruling which was overturned by Constitutional Amendment---not to mention that it was ascribing the words of a poor translator written a decade after the Constitution was ratified to the Framers.

You misrepresent the arguments of Jack Maskell to avoid dealing with the meat of his well-researched case that agrees with every legal authority for the past century or so in saying that you are completely wrong.

You refuse to accept that President Obama was born in Hawai'i. This is a legal certainty---it cannot be disproven in any US court, including the SCOTUS. Not only that, but the assertion weakens your primary argument---if President Obama has a fraudulent birth certificate, why wouldn't he have made one that makes him eligible if your standards were the ones that "everyone" knew.

Any of these would be enough to rouse my suspicion---all of them make a crystal-clear pattern. It is nearly impossible to believe that anyone who attended a brick and mortar law school could make all of these errors out of stupidity and ignorance and that leaves only one possible explanation: dishonesty. Everything I've said here, right or wrong, has reflected my honest understanding and beliefs. Why should I continue to interact with someone who has proven himself dishonest with stunning regularity and frequency?

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

You say that I should be worried about President Obama's legacy or some such---again I ask you why? How will anything you might do impact President Obama's legacy in any way? Why should I want any more than that his legacy reflects what he did (rather than the straw man version of President Obama that birthers always seem to hold as the gospel truth)?

President Obama will serve out his term and the extent of the impact of the birthers on the remainder of his administration will probably be a couple of jokes in his remaining correspondent's dinner speeches. You don't understand (or wont admit) that all I want is for the status quo (on the eligibility issue) to continue and the birthers are incapable of effecting that status quo in any way whatsoever.

Responding to you doesn't really seem to be worth a single picosecond of my time (although I've enjoyed writing this comment, to be sure), so unless you can explain to me what possible reason I have for answering the questions of a dishonest DUI attorney who stiles himself a Constitutional scholar despite all evidence to the contrary on a year-old blog post about an article by a satirical blogger on an official report from the Congressional Research Service. An article which you use to smear an innocent person with integrity, intelligence and legal acumen---three things which you have never shown the slightest inkling of---for the sole reason that if, Mr. Maskell is honest and merely did the job he was given to the best of his obviously considerable ability, then the entire house of cards that is your argument against President Obama's eligibility collapses completely. To me, this is despicable behavior, why should I reward it with the slightest bit of attention?

It is bad enough that birthers have no compunction whatsoever with regard to making the most vile (and completely baseless) smears against President Obama and his family, but the willingness of yourself and others to cast aspersions on innocent people in a desperate attempt to bolster your thoroughly debunked delusions is truly shameful and disgusting. The fact that you consider yourselves to be patriots while spewing this type of bile is appalling to any decent American---or any decent human being---who reads your garbage.

Now, it's your choice as to whether or not you allow this through the moderation on your blog, and, just to be clear, whether you post it or not, I win. So long as I never post again on your blog, I win. You can either allow me to have the final say (by posting this on the Fogbow) and I win or you can try to respond to my anti-Gish gallop (running roughshod over you with the truth instead of lies) in which case you will fail to honestly refute even a fraction of the points I've made and I win. If you never submit another eligibility case in your life, I win. If you submit a case and have it denied all the way to the SCOTUS, I win. If you (or any other birther---looking at you Orly) gets sanctioned for your vexatious litigation, I really win. If President Obama leaves office in January of 2017, I win. If birthers never have any impact on politics again, I win. If birthers manage to associate themselves with a few tea party Republicans and taint them in the process, I win. If you try to question the eligibility of Marco Rubio, Rafael Cruz or Piyush Jindal, I win. If you fail to question their eligibility, I win. If you or any of your sycophants stops being a birther, I win (and so do they). The only way I lose is if I ever respond to your dishonest tripe on your insignificant blog again. Starting.....



NOW.

Anonymous said...

"Denization is the granting of Subject status, in a limited way, to those born aliens."

As I said, that seems wrong unless referring to foreign-born aliens (i.e., foreigners). Endenization was similar to naturalization of foreigners. It was the granting to an adult foreign immigrant or resident certain English rights.

His native-born children were denizens by the natural meaning of the word (inhabitants) but were not limited to inheriting only the father's limited status, but were deemed full subjects via common law.

"If an English Merchant that lives beyond Sea, marries there, and has a Child by his Wife, and afterwards dies, this Child is born a Denizen, and shall inherit, notwithstanding the Wife was an Alien."

That grant was via Parliamentary statute, not via the king. It was a fiction of law that gave the child of a mixed nationality marriage semi-equal rights, but not full rights.
I presume that if the father was living, the child would have full subject rights if born in the right era. (after 1350 I believe, the "Ditus Ultra Natis Mare" Act.)

Anonymous said...

Dane wrote: "if an English subject comes into the United States, and marries an American wife, and has a child by her born here: it cannot inherit her estate here, because this child follows the allegiance of its father, and may inherit his estate in England.”

That sure sounds like an alternate reality and not the real world. His error was in equating the national law of Britain with an American practice which was actually determined by the laws of individual American States.
He spoke only of the gender-based custom of British common law or statutory law which was never codified by Congress since land ownership and inheritance was purely a State issue, not a federal issue.

He was so thoroughly steeped in British law that he was essentially programmed like a computer, and could not think outside of that British doctrinal box. That is almost astonishing, and yet not all the uncommon.

It reminds me of how after I've taken my sunglasses off of the top of my head and set them down, ten minutes later I reach up to take them off again because I can still feel them on my head.
His head was so stuffed with British doctrine that even when it was taken off of him, it still left its sensation in his mind and thinking.

Anonymous said...

"You insist that there was no national common law, but only state common law. ...which state provided the common law of which Minor spoke and which it said defined the natural born citizens"

That was the common law extant since about 1070 AD, brought to the Americas by the colonists.

"...that all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners?"
Please, show us where we find the words "all the rest of the people were aliens or foreigners"??
NOWHERE! except in your fertile imagination. It did not address native-born common law citizens.

You should learn how to read.
"The Act “did say” that the children of aliens so naturalized shall also be considered as citizens. That is a universal statement covering all children of aliens so naturalized."

That's false and you know it. It included the caveat of the requirement of dwelling in the U.S. Why did you fail to mention that? You mind running in over-drive?

There is no need to read into the statute or expect more as you and your Obot pals like to do.

Wow! What a sign of desperation! That's the equivalent to calling Custer an Indian lover! That's how low you have to go to discredit your implacable discreditor?

You know my position. It is that both you and the Obots are nuts, -dogmatic Kool-Aid drinkers, clinging to delusional doctrines not based in reality.

"Do you really think that Congress was so stupid like you that they just forgot to tell us that they were only talking about children born out of the United States?"

Is your Alzheimer's coming back?

I told you, Congress forgot nothing. They ignored native-born children because they were Americans by British common law going back to the founding of each of the colonies.

"Congress accepted the ancient rule that children followed the condition of their parents regardless of where they were born (partus sequitur patrem)."

Not Congress. The Justice & State Departments. It was executive policy in an international context.

But thanks for shooting your own feet off! "the condition of their parents regardless of where they were born"
Thank you Mario, for confirming what I have been hammering you about for years. Yes! Vattel! Fathers nationality rules! Everywhere on Earth! Regardless of foreign birth.

Anonymous said...

"So why are the Fogbow posters frauds like Slartibartfast?"

Because they have nothing but losing, lame fantasies to defend their Dear Leader. They are all corrupt and maniacal when it comes to normal thinking and reasoning.

You can't begin to imagine the devious, demonic, demented and delusional responses I've had to wade through in the thread devoted to my Vancouver birth scenario. Brains would be flying if they didn't have skulls.

Over 1,100 posts of slime and infantile stupidity that I've slogged through, ever astonished at the new lows that they sink to, -unprintable anywhere in the world.
They make dogs and pigs look like geniuses in comparison.
All in their desperate attempt to defend the great Lord Barackula.

MichaelN said...

You are a loser Kev, besides that you are a traitor and an embarrassment to your friends and family.

The crux of your entire argument is the absurd notion that native-birth sufficed to make one a "natural born subject" of England, and that the founders and framers of the US and it's constitution used the English definition, re-wording it to "natural born Citizen".

Well here it is again Kev, here's what your English common law has to say....

Lord (Sir) Edward Coke, per Calvin's case....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

Ooops, so if daddy not a subject, then his native-born kid is not a subject..... you lose Kev.

Here's another from Calvin's case...

"There be regulary (unlesse it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born.
1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the king.
2. That the place of his birth be within the king’s dominion.
And 3. the time of his birth is chiefly to be considered;"


Oooops again Kev, place of birth was not enough for the English......... so you lose again Kev.......... like I pointed out, you are a loser Kev.

It has always been about parental allegiance.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...
" That being the case, and since the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli which was in effect under the Constitution as originally written (what they believed the Framers originally intended, by the way), doesn't this mean that they considered all "14th Amendment citizens" to also be citizens under the Constitution as originally written?"

Wilted Rose said...
Could you provide a citation to back up the idea that "the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli "?"

Slartibartfast said...
I wont provide you with quotes or links until we establish what would constitute sufficient evidence of the intent of the writers of the 14th Amendment."

Wilted Rose said...
As you said,
"since the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment was to make explicit the common law principle of jus soli"
...then show that intent through the statements of the framers of the 14th amendment, like you said.
The debates and statements of the framers are most likely available in the Congressional Globe.

Slartibartfast said...
I was working on a response when the blog gods demanded it as a sacrifice (lost it in a crash), but suffice it to say that while the Framers of the 14th Amendment don't state their intent as clearly as I might like, I still feel that what I said was in keeping with the spirit of their words.



Is this the kind of junk you guys have been putting up with for years? Pompous pronouncements with no basis in fact, no citation to anything except "Because I said so"?

I really tried not to laugh, but this was too much.

I think I hurt myself.

Unknown said...

h2ooflife said...

"If an English Merchant that lives beyond Sea, marries there, and has a Child by his Wife, and afterwards dies, this Child is born a Denizen, and shall inherit, notwithstanding the Wife was an Alien."

That grant was via Parliamentary statute, not via the king. It was a fiction of law that gave the child of a mixed nationality marriage semi-equal rights, but not full rights."


I don't think so. The citations are to court cases, not parliamentary statutes.
A New Abridgement of the Law, (1736) Page 77

http://books.google.com/books?id=hho2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA77&dq=aliens+common+law+statute+natural+born+subject&hl=en&sa=X&ei=agRfU87FDM-xyAT0vIDoBw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=aliens%20common%20law%20statute%20natural%20born%20subject&f=false

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

I of II

You quoted Blackstone thus:

"The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural born subjects (8), and entitled to all the privileges of such."
Then you said that “the (8) is a citation to Coke on Calvin's case. 7 C. 18a which states:

"’... Now what a subject born is, appeareth at large by that which hath been said de ligeantia (allegiance) : and so likewise de subdito dato ( subject made), of a donaison(gift): for that is the right name, so called, because his legitimation is given unto him; for if you derive denizen from deins nee(born within), one born within the obedience or ligeance of the King, then such a one should be all one with a natural-born subject. And it appeareth before out of the laws of King W. 1. of what antiquity the making of denizens by the King of England hath been.’"

I do not believe that the reference to Coke in that footnote is to Coke talking about denizens, but rather to Coke talking about that being born in the dominion was not sufficient, for one had also to be born in the allegiance of the King. Here is the source of my understanding:

“The children of aliens, born here in England, are, generally speaking, natural-born subjects (8), but their being born within the allegiance, and under the protection of the king. 7 Co., 18. a.], and entitled to all the privileges of such. In which the constitution of France differs from ours; for there, by their jus albinatus, if a child be born of foreign parents, it is an alien.” (9) (Blackstone’s footnotes omitted).

“8 Unless the alien parents are acting in the realm as enemies; for my Lord Coke says, it is not caelum nec solum [climate nor soil], but their being born within the allegiance, and under the protection of the king. 7 Co. 18. a.”

“9 The late Vinerian professor informs us, that, ‘in this respect there is not any difference between our laws and those of France. In each country, birth confers the right of ‘naturalization.’ 1 Woodd. 386.”

William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England, Book I, 373, n.9, 1765 (with notes and additions by Edward Christian, Esq. 1809). Note that Christian wrote footnote 8 and 9.

So, footnote 8 refers to one of the common law exception to jus soli, i.e., birth to military invaders. As I mentioned to you in one of my earlier comments, this exception along with the foreign diplomat parents one is the reason that Blackstone qualified his definition of a natural-born subject with “generally speaking.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

But what is more important in this quote is what Christian said about Wooddeson in footnote 9.
What is critical to understand about Christian’s reference to Wooddeson is that he demonstrated that Wooddeson maintained that in England, a child born to alien parents became a “natural born subject” by naturalization at birth and that France also allowed the same under its naturalization laws. In both countries, birth in its territory conferred the right to naturalization at birth. Hence, Christian showed that Wooddeson believed that there really was no difference between the English common law and the French Constitution which treated children born in France to alien parents as aliens, but French laws like the English common law then allowed those children to be naturalized at birth. Hence, the laws of both nations allowed children born in their territories to alien parents to become “subjects” or “citizens” by naturalization at birth. Professor Wooddeson’s comment, which Christian cites and quotes approvingly in his footnote 9, shows that England, France, and eventually the United States, all provided for naturalization at birth for children “born within the jurisdiction” to alien parents. So, both Lord Coke in Calvin’s Case and Professor Wooddeson considered a child born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance to alien parents to be a “natural born subject” by naturalization at birth.

Wooddeson was a Venerian Professor of the English common law at Oxford University. The Venerian Chair was established at Oxford University for the purpose of studying English common law. Blackstone was the first Venerian Professor. Wooddeson was the third. For further information on the Venerian Chair and Wooddeson, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinerian_Professor_of_English_Law and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wooddeson .

As you can see, Wooddeson was an authority on the English common law. His statement that children born in the dominion to alien parents were naturalized at birth as natural born subjects goes pretty far in proving my point that any child born in the dominion to alien parents was alien born, but under the English common law naturalized at birth to be a natural born subject. The Framers knew that, but for such children being born in the United States after July 4, 1776, they did not accept that they were naturalized at birth by mere birth in the country. Rather, they saw them as alien born and in need of naturalization by Acts of Congress, which naturalization occurred after birth. See the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 (early Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization after birth.) Hence, while the English common law may have considered children born in the dominion to alien parents as alien born, but naturalized at birth to be natural born subjects, American common law considered those children alien born and in need of naturalization by Act of Congress. Minor v. Happersett (1875). Later, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment, and how Wong Kim Ark imposed the English common law into the Amendment, those same children became naturalized at birth under that Amendment just as if those children had been born under the English common law, except for the Court requiring unlike the English common law that the parents be permanently domiciled and residents. So, since these children were alien born either under English common law or American common law, and under American common law they were not naturalized at birth but remained alien born and in need of naturalization which could only occur after birth through an Act of Congress, the Framers simply could not have accepted those children born in the country to alien parents as natural born citizens.

ajtelles said...

Right and Wrong...
Win and Lose...
Truth and Consequences...

In a 4 parter of around 13,833 words, Slartibartfast, aka Phd wise guy about "set" "subset" "proper subset", uh, I mean Phd mathematician, aka Kevin, aka S..., made a whole lotta points and then he said he's taking his bat and glove and ball and going to play somewhere else.

Mario, it looks like your exposition of historical truth relative to Article II Section 1 Clause 5 and the permanent and perpetual POTUS eligibility words "natural born Citizen" as having ONLY the meaning of birth in the U.S. to TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents has political consequences that Obama-birthers like Kevin, aka S... can not rebut and refute.

After all these years, Kevin, aka S... still thinks that John Jay was implying ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent was sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

He certainly has never refuted the "unity" of the phrase "unity of citizenship and allegiance" as understood in the 1700s common law and how the common law informed the 1875 Minor v Happersett court and the 1898 U.S. v Wong Kim Ark court.

He has never touched with a 10 ft. pole the 1900s explicit definition in the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act (clause "g") that a child born on foreign soil to an "alien" parent and a U.S. "citizen" parent (like Sen. Cruz) is ONLY a 1952 INA U.S. "citizen" and NOT a 1787 Article II "natural born Citizen."

He has never never never EVER never answered the quesion of what John Jay was implying when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washington, so I'm asking it again below.

Oh well, Mario, it looks like you win.

You won when Dr. Conspiracy agreed with you that "natural born Citizen" is a proper subset of "born citizen." The sets are not equal, and EVERY "natural born Citizen" obviously IS a "citizen" BUT not EVERY "citizen" is a "natural born Citizen" also.

As a refresher for Kevin, aka S... and his Obama-birther true-believers, here is your response to me on June 23, 2014 at 4:40 PM about your June 23, 214 at 3:07 PM clarification about "sets" "subsets" and "proper subset" questions that non-mathematicians and some PhD mathematicians have.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

See what President Abraham Lincoln said aboaut the "Union"
>> http://originalbirtherdocument14.blogspot.com/

ajtelles said...

Wilted Rose,

>> "Pompous pronouncements with no basis in fact, no citation to anything except "Because I said so"?

Yep, that's Kevin, aka S...

He never has, he never will produce original intent sources,'cause he can't, AND 'cause the Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is good 'nuf for true-believer "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama... Obatized Obama-birthers who know what they believe so don't confuse them with historical facts and true truth.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose replied to my comment: "That grant was via Parliamentary statute, not via the king. It was a fiction of law that gave the child of a mixed nationality marriage semi-equal rights, but not full rights."

"I don't think so. The citations are to court cases, not parliamentary statutes."

You very likely are correct then, but I believe that the rulings were sooner or later incorporated into the next nationality statute revision.

MichaelN quoted: "There be regulary (unlesse it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born.
1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the king.
2. That the place of his birth be within the king’s dominion.

I strongly suspect that your American interpretation of "actual obedience" means the equivalent of being a U.S. citizen, but it may not. It very well may mean nothing more than anyone within the king's realm who is not an enemy, which would include friendly aliens who are subject to the national authority.

I America, friendly immigrants are deemed subject to American jurisdiction, but are not citizens, yet give birth to citizens via 14th Amendment common law. So your focus is off the target of what constitutes a *natural born citizen* or subject, not just a legal or fictional natural subject or citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The petulant children over at the Foggybrain are whining that I did not win when I got the Third Circuit to discharge its order to show cause on whether I should be made to pay defendants’ attorney’s fees for having appealed the District Court’s decision to dismiss the Kerchner v. Obama and Congress. The lower court had dismissed the case on the ground that the question of what is a natural born citizen is a political question and not a legal one for a court to decide and that the plaintiffs did not prove that they were damaged by having to live under a President who they maintained was not an Article II “natural born citizen.” The court in essence said that there was no basis to what John Jay told then-General George Washington in his July 1787 letter regarding keeping foreign influence out of the office of Commander in Chief of the Military. The infants insist that even though I won on the order to show cause, it still stands that the court said that the appeal was frivolous. This is really an idiotic statement by these juveniles. The statement is like saying that even though a defendant who is accused of having committed a crime wins his case in court, he still loses because the state had accused him of committing the crime. What is also amazing is that with all the information that has been published on this blog concerning the meaning of a natural born citizen, the best that these toads can do is talk about a case that never reached the merits of what is being discussed here, but rather dismissed the complaint because according to the court, the plaintiffs did not prove that they were damaged by having to live under a President is not a natural born citizen. (When deciding the motion to dismiss for lack of standing, the court was supposed to assume the truth of plaintiffs’ argument that Obama was not an Article II natural born citizen.)

By the way, the fake, phony, fraud, Slartibartfast, is back home with company in that pit of idiocy. Here is the sort of garbage that the Ph.D Mathematician, "Super Set," dumps there:

“The thing that has always fascinated me about Mario is where to place him on the scale from stupid/ignorant/incompetent true believer to dishonest/incompetent grifter. I guess we shouldn't be surprised that the judge had the same trouble and gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was incompetent due to stupidity rather than dishonesty.”

And this is coming from someone with a Ph.D in Mathematics who, as we can see from the best that he could do at this blog, does not know the difference between a subset and a proper subset, let alone have any clue as to what a natural born citizen is.

Anonymous said...

Well! Today sees two terminations. One by Sloppyfartface and one by me at the fogblow.
I think you might appreciate my final post, number 1,377 (55 pages)

(thread) A. R. Nash: Barack Obama was born in Vancouver, B. C.

by obama--nation » Thu Jul 03, 2014

BillTheCat wrote: We're giving him a free platform to perform in and he gets responses every single day - Not just Mario and one or two of us, but a big group of people.

He will never go away unless he is banned. And frankly, IMHO, he's overstayed his welcome, even in FEMA camp. Having a debate is one thing. When it becomes yelling at a brick wall, it's time to stop. IMHO.
my reply:
Well guess what? It's is time to stop when I say it's time, -and it is time to stop, (unless you can't resist carrying on without me). I think I've shared enough truth with those here who have a half-honest soul.

Like I already stated earlier, tomorrow is my independence day from this retarded toilet. Can't you comprehend plain English? Is your memory shot from too much smack?

Time for all of you losers to get a life, instead of faithfully consigning yourselves to cleaning up Obama's piles for life. That should be below even your dignity, but the problem is that none of you have any since dignity comes only with honesty.

Some of you fancy yourselves as intellectually honest, but fail to grasp that your presumed honesty does not keep you on the straight and narrow path of the truth since your thinking is so distorted by deep ingrained bias in favor of an unconstitutional fraud of an American.

Wait! I take that back.

Yes, Obama is an American, just like the so-called Dreamers brought here as children and raised as Americans. They and Obama are Americans!
But neither are United States citizens. And last I checked, only a *NATURAL BORN CITIZEN* is eligible to be President.

To even be a citizen requires meeting certain obligations and requirements: SUBJECTION to The Full Depth of National Sovereign Jurisdiction:

Financial Obligation Americans are obligated to pay U.S. income taxes on taxable income world-wide while living abroad.

Military Obligation: from conscription age up to 25 years old, American men are required to register with Selective Service.

Loyalty Obligation: -full allegiance required and expected vs disloyalty up to and including treason.

Barack Hussein Obama, foreign student from Kenya, a guest of the U.S. on a 1 yr. student Visa; NOT SUBJECT!!!! His son born subject to only British jurisdiction as his own website declared: also,... NOT SUBJECT!!!

OBAMA Jr.: ~NOT A UNITED STATES CITIZEN!!!

~Accept it, it's the LAW of these UNITED STATES. Why do you not respect the law??? (U.S. v Wong Kim Ark, 1898).

When will you start showing some respect for the opinion of the SUPREME COURT OF THESE UNITED STATES?

(I know... never!)

and that's all she wrote.... toota lu, traitors!

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose pondered Lord Coke's words: "because his legitimation is given unto him; for if you derive denizen from deins nee (born within), [NOT A BELIEVABLE DERIVATION] one born within the obedience or ligeance of the King, then such a one should be *all one with* a natural-born subject. And it appeareth before out of the laws of King W. 1. of what antiquity [origin] the making of denizens by the King of England hath been."

"To me, it looks like Coke is saying that denizens who are born within the realm should be considered natural born subjects. Could that be where the conflation of denizen and natural born subject came from?"

The conflation came about because of human intellectual laziness. It was burdensome to always have to distinguish that they were not actually natural born subjects; they were merely their equivalent, although totally different; -one subject by borders at birth, the other subject by inherited obligation via blood (descent).

In time, seeing no difference between them, since they had identical rights and obligations, why bother to distinguish their differences? Take the easy way, the lazy way and don't give a damn about an inconsequential distinction.

Inconsequential because they did not have an elected King nor elected national military commander nor Prime Minister. It only mattered in America when the office of President was created.

And thus one considered "
*all one with* a natural-born subject" was eventually simply labeled as one as well, but with the unspoken understanding that that label was fictional in nature, a legal fiction, -a "subject made" via common law applying to all denizens, even the alien-born (as apposed to "a subject made by Procreation".

Anonymous said...

Sloopyfartface said: "You refuse to accept that President Obama was born in Hawaii. This is a legal certainty---it cannot be disproven in any US court, including the SCOTUS."

Notice how he does not say it is a certainty. That is different from a "legal" certainty. But his legal certainty is equivalent to a visual certainty that the sun rises in the morning and is seen to revolve around the Earth.
Such certainty does not necessarily reflect reality.

"-if President Obama has a fraudulent birth certificate, why wouldn't he have made one that makes him eligible if your standards were the ones that "everyone" knew."

And that, ladies & gentlemen, reveals the true degree of his stupidity.
His rationality is bent, distorted, and defective to ask why Obama did not do something that was impossible (claim a non-Kenyan American father) and do so for the asinine reason of qualifying under a national assumption of eligibility that supposedly Mario asserts is the normal universal assumption when he has never made such a claim about what everyone assumes.

Just exactly when did Mario claim that "everyone knew" that his eligibility doctrine is the law?

My guess; never. So why did his off-the-rails mind come up with such a fiction? Because he lives in a fictional Matrix version of reality. Whatever pops into his head is worthy of him sharing, even when its flat-out asinine on its face. Which describes most of what he has written.
"The delusion runs deep with this one, my fellows. Be cautious of his fantasizing."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of III

I want to wish not only all Americans, but the whole world a Happy Fourth of July, better known as Independence Day. The American Revolution is a testament to the potential of all human beings to achieve freedom of thought and economic and social condition, all co-existing within the bounds and needs of the civil and political society. In other words, the Revolution was a catalyst for world independence of thought and condition balanced in such a way as to create a civil and political society most conducive to the happiness of man and woman. The event should therefore be a world celebration.

Art,

In your comment at July 3, 2014 at 10:15 PM you said to me: “You won when Dr. Conspiracy agreed with you that ‘natural born Citizen’ is a proper subset of ‘born citizen.’ The sets are not equal, and EVERY ‘natural born Citizen’ obviously IS a ‘citizen’ BUT not EVERY ‘citizen’ is a ‘natural born Citizen’ also.”

You did a good job in understanding the difference between a subset and a proper subject, identifying the central element of inequality between a set and a proper subset and as applied to citizenship, that all natural born citizens are citizens, but not all citizens are natural born citizens. But you made a small (big) error in your comment which from what I gather from the complete context of you statement was an inadvertent one (like when from the context we can see that the fingers typed a word of which the mind was not conscious). In your statement, you conflated citizen with born citizen. Dr. Conspiracy conceded that natural born citizens is best described as a proper subset (not only a subset) of “citizens” (what Ph.D Mathematician Slartibartfast refused to admit), but he does not concede that natural born citizens is a proper subset of “born citizens.”

In order for Obama to have established that he had a potential constitutional legal right to the Office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military, he must have first demonstrated that, not only could he win the election for those offices, but that he had satisfied his constitutional duty of being not only at least 35 years of age and at least a 14-year resident within the United States, but also an Article II “natural born citizen.” In order for the Obots to constitutionally legitimize the usurper Obama (he could be a born citizen, if he was born in the United States, but he is not a natural born citizen, which means that the devolution of executive and military powers to him is repugnant to the Constitution and therefore void), they have to maintain that all born citizens are natural born citizens (this is the Jack Maskell mantra which we have debunked at this blog and elsewhere). In other words, they argue that the subsets are equal, and that being equal, natural born citizens cannot be a proper subset of born citizens.

So how do Maskell and the Obots arrive at their thesis? Maskell and the Obots, in interpreting the meaning of a natural born citizen, play down that the Framers used the clause specifically in reference to the President and Commander in Chief. They come up with some fairy-land tale that they were only afraid of some rich and powerful European Prince coming to America and just taking over everything. By so ridiculing the clause, they attempt to convince people that the clause really is not important and has served its useful life for modern-day America.

But they go further and they have to, for we still have a written Constitution, the fundamental and supreme law of the nation, with which they have to deal. They have come up with the thesis that all born citizens are natural born citizens. As I have explained, the Maskell/Obot thesis that all born citizens are natural born citizen (born citizen=natural born citizen) reads the word “natural” out of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. In the famous words of Chief Justice John Marshall which ring very true today:

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

If it had been intended to leave it in the discretion of the Legislature to apportion the judicial power between the Supreme and inferior courts according to the will of that body, it would certainly have been useless to have proceeded further than to have defined the judicial power and the tribunals in which it should be vested. The subsequent part of the section is mere surplusage -- is entirely without meaning -- if such is to be the construction. If Congress remains at liberty to give this court appellate jurisdiction where the Constitution has declared their jurisdiction shall be original, and original jurisdiction where the Constitution has declared it shall be appellate, the distribution of jurisdiction made in the Constitution, is form without substance.

Affirmative words are often, in their operation, negative of other objects than those affirmed, and, in this case, a negative or exclusive sense must be given to them or they have no operation at all.

It cannot be presumed that any clause in the Constitution is intended to be without effect, and therefore such construction is inadmissible unless the words require it.

Page 5 U. S. 175

If the solicitude of the Convention respecting our peace with foreign powers induced a provision that the Supreme Court should take original jurisdiction in cases which might be supposed to affect them, yet the clause would have proceeded no further than to provide for such cases if no further restriction on the powers of Congress had been intended. That they should have appellate jurisdiction in all other cases, with such exceptions as Congress might make, is no restriction unless the words be deemed exclusive of original jurisdiction.

When an instrument organizing fundamentally a judicial system divides it into one Supreme and so many inferior courts as the Legislature may ordain and establish, then enumerates its powers, and proceeds so far to distribute them as to define the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court by declaring the cases in which it shall take original jurisdiction, and that in others it shall take appellate jurisdiction, the plain import of the words seems to be that, in one class of cases, its jurisdiction is original, and not appellate; in the other, it is appellate, and not original. If any other construction would render the clause inoperative, that is an additional reason for rejecting such other construction, and for adhering to the obvious meaning.

Marbury v. Madison, 5 U.S. (1 Cranch) 137, 174-75 (1803).

What Chief Justice Marshall is telling us here is that words in the Constitution have meaning and cannot simply be written out of it without any reason. He is also saying that clauses in the Constitution have to have an effect and operation in a real sense and not rendered meaningless by some interpretation. He is also saying that whatever powers the Constitution gives to Congress cannot simply be expanded beyond what the Constitution says those powers are. Article II uses the clause “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.” This clause has to have a real effect and operation. And the Constitution only gives to Congress the power to naturalized persons, not to make them natural born citizens. Hence, reading “natural” out of the Constitution so as to give Congress a power to make through naturalization what the Constitution calls “natural born citizens,” or equating a "citizen of the United States" at birth with a natural born citizen reads the word “natural” out of the Constitution so as to render the whole clause meaningless and gives Congress a power which the Constitution does not give to it. Such an interpretation of the natural born citizen clause is constitutionally inadmissible. Furthermore, to argue as the Obots do that Minor v. Happersett (1875) told is who is a natural born is, but did not tell us who is not is an inadmissible interpretation of what the Court said.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

By pooh-poohing the natural born citizen clause and reading the word “natural” out of the clause, Maskell and the Obots just want us to forget or simply dismiss what the Framers had in mind regarding how born citizens, who later in life were supposed to be trusted with the survival and preservation of the nation and with the singular civil and military powers of the Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military that come with it, came into being and how they were most likely to be reared and educated. They want us to ignore how the Framers saw future presidents and commanders developing their political character and conscience prior to being given the constitutional privilege to be eligible for those offices.

As Chief Justice Marshall explained in Marbury, the Constitution is a written expression of the people of the founding generation who had the original right to constitute their government in such a manner as to best provide for their happiness and having been adopted and ratified by them is the supreme law of the land. Id. at 176. Whatever the Constitution provides remains the paramount law until amended by duly ratified amendment. You are correct that under our Constitution, natural born citizens is a proper subset of born citizens, for not all born citizens are natural born citizens, who are children born in the United States to parents who were both its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Hence, the only correction to your statement is that Jack Maskell, Dr. Conspiracy, and the other Obots just fail to see or refuse to admit these fundamental truths.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "the Maskell/Obot thesis [is] that all born citizens are natural born citizen [which] reads the word “natural” out of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5."

"What Chief Justice Marshall is telling us here is that words in the Constitution have meaning and cannot simply be written out of it without any reason. ... that clauses in the Constitution have to have an effect and operation in a real sense and not rendered meaningless by some interpretation."

"Article II uses the clause “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.” This clause [WORD] has to have a real effect and operation."

Now you've hit the bull's eye. You perfectly point out the fact that "natural" is not some superfluous, unneeded appendage but a vital element of the phrase as the founders were not given to adding meaningless or redundant words just for the heck of it.

The fact that "natural" has real meaning is a silver bullet to the heart of the obot dogma which stands or falls on the doctrine that the nbc phrase has no literal meaning at all, -only a legal term of art meaning, -one by which the words "natural born" carry the same sense as under British doctrine of the common law.

But that doctrine does not use the words as separate words but joins them by a hyphen, rendering them one single, indivisible, unitary phrase in which neither word is defined independently.

Thus their term of art meaning can mean less than what the words mean, i.e., the sum is less than the parts since natural loses all meaning.
That was fine in a nation without an elected Commander-in-Chief, but not in the new U.S.A. which had the only one in the world.

The downside of your illumination being correct on that point is that it not only invalidates the obot doctrine of requiring a term-of-art interpretation, but it also invalidates your own as well.

Either the words have individual meaning and "natural" CANNOT be dismissed as meaningless, or they do NOT have individual meaning and the word "natural" can simply be ignored as it was under the British system.

You have an unresolvable conundrum of conflicting doctrine and must some day deal with it, picking the one you just shared and thereby invalidating the obots, or clinging to the opposite of what you shared and thus validating their "term-of-art" labeling of the phrase.

It can't be both a term-of-art and also *not* a term of art but instead simply common words used in conjunction in a natural way, not a fictional "legal" way.

I hope you choose wisely.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

You were doing just fine when following along. But you went off on the deep, deep end when you stuck your own two cents into it.

There is no conundrum on my part. Natural born citizen is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause. It means a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875).

All of what you wrote after the part wherein you said you agreed with me, to the degree that anyone can even understand what you are talking about, is pure jumbled up fantasy designed to continue to promote you family agenda.

Anonymous said...

~Of Parentage & Subsets~

With a nation as the parent set, the States are subsets. Counties are subsets of the States. Cities & towns are subsets of counties. Clans are subsets of counties as well. Families are subsets of clans. Children are subsets of families.
In America, the proper order of governmental authority is upward, vertical, from smaller to larger, on up to national authority.
But not so for families. In the new union of States, families were subject directly to the State authority and essentially not at all to the new, limited national authority.
Membership in the aggregate nation was via membership in the component parts that constituted the Union; the States.
Unlike today, a family was subject to its State authority, and through it, (to whatever degree it was subject) to the national authority.
The point is two-fold. One is that minor children were not directly subject to either State nor national authority since they were under their father's family-head authority.
That fact illuminates the second point. That children were a subset of the parents, and did not exist outside of the family set. Thus their existence was due to them being part & parcel of their parents.
They could not be part & parcel of some set to which their parents did not belong since their personhood and existence and membership was tied to that of the parents who constituted a specific set within a nation.

Their children could not be natural members of a set completely unrelated and outside of the higher sets of which the parents were a part. Their membership was strictly hierarchically, -not horizontally determined.
They could not be natural subjects nor citizens of a foreign parent set because it was not within the hierarchy of which they were a part.
They naturally belonged to their parents' set and no other. Only artificial man-made rules and laws could assign them horizontally to a set of which they were not naturally a part, -making them by law a member of a subset to which they had no natural nor cultural nor historical connection.

That all relates to international assignment of national membership when birth is within foreign borders.

I continued it as a post to my own blog (about 1800 words):
Of Freedom & Subjection; Subsets & Citizens
http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/07/04/of-freedom-subsets-citizens/

ajtelles said...

"... because the sets are not equal" redux
or
Oh well, Mario, it looks like you win


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Mario,

This is the opening paragraph from your very appreciated 3 part tutorial on July 4, 2014 at 1:37 PM about set theory, "natural born citizens has to be a proper subset of not only citizens but also born citizens because the sets are not equal."

>> Art,

>> In your comment at July 3, 2014 at 10:15 PM you said to me:

>> “You won when Dr. Conspiracy agreed with you that ‘natural born Citizen’ is a proper subset of ‘born citizen.’ The sets are not equal, and EVERY ‘natural born Citizen’ obviously IS a ‘citizen’ BUT not EVERY ‘citizen’ is a ‘natural born Citizen’ also.”

>> You did a good job in understanding the difference between a subset and a proper subject, identifying the central element of inequality between a set and a proper subset and as applied to citizenship, that all natural born citizens are citizens, but not all citizens are natural born citizens.

>> But you made a small (big) error in your comment which from what I gather from the complete context of you statement was an inadvertent one (like when from the context we can see that the fingers typed a word of which the mind was not conscious).

>> In your statement, you conflated citizen with born citizen.

>> Dr. Conspiracy conceded that natural born citizens is best described as a proper subset (not only a subset) of “citizens” (what Ph.D Mathematician Slartibartfast refused to admit), but he does not concede that natural born citizens is a proper subset of “born citizens.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Mario,

Yes, it was inadvertent.

8- Simply stated,
9- natural born citizens has to be a proper subset
10- of not only citizens,
11- but also born citizens
12- because the sets are not equal.


I am getting closer to finally putting set theory language into non-mathematician and non-set theory aficianado normal people's "what does THAT mean" language that I understand so that I can convey it to a friend of mine who is also not a mathematician, so he can convey it to his father who is also not a mathematician, but who is a retired person who, when the FBI inquires about his redacted military history, is not allowed by secrecy agreements that he signed to tell them, other than to say that they should inquire of an appropriate authority. Maybe some Obama-birther mathematicians will learn something too. Fill in the "gaps" where needed.

First, here is your response to me on June 23, 2014 at 4:40 PM about your June 23, 2014 at 3:07 PM clarification about "sets" "subsets" and "proper subset" questions that non-mathematicians and some PhD mathematicians have. I numbered the lines for reference.

ajtelles said...

"... because the sets are not equal" redux
or
Oh well, Mario, it looks like you win


2/

Art,

1- "The set theory scam pulled by Slartibartfast and Byron Gene Olson is the following:

2- they concede that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens.
3- (I had to get Dr. Conspiracy to tell Slartibartfast that between subset and proper subset,
4- the latter is the best answer as to what type of set natural born citizens is.)
5- But they refuse to admit that natural born citizens is a proper subset of born citizens.
6- The reason that Slartibartfast wanted to stay away from proper subset in relation to citizens
7- is because it gets him too close for comfort to proper subset in relation to born citizens.
8- Simply stated,
9- natural born citizens has to be a proper subset
10- of not only citizens,
11- but also born citizens
12- because the sets are not equal.
13- All natural born citizens are born citizens.
14- But not all born citizens are natural born citizens.
15- Slartibartfast and Mr. Olson make all born citizens natural born citizens
16- so that they can include Obama and Cruz as born citizens and therefore natural born citizens.
17- It is simply absurd to argue:
18- if born citizen,
19- then natural born citizen.
20- Such an argument does not account for the qualifier “natural”
21- and thereby denies that it has any meaning.
22- Not giving words in the Constitution any meaning is not admissible.
23- Marbury v. Madison (1803).
24- Also, they have no historical or legal support for their Jack Maskell theory
25- that all born citizens are natural born citizens.
26- On the contrary, as I have demonstrated,
27- the historical and legal evidence contradicts their thesis.

Today, July 4, 2014 at 1:37 PM, you wrote a clairifying comment that is very helpful, about what Kevin, aka Dr. Conspiracy does NOT concede

28- Dr. Conspiracy conceded that natural born citizens
29- is best described as a proper subset (not only a subset) of “citizens”
30- (what Ph.D Mathematician Slartibartfast refused to admit),
31- but he does not concede that natural born citizens
32- is a proper subset of “born citizens.”

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In other words -

Mario – nbC is both
M – nbC IS a proper subset of "citizen"
M – nbC IS is a proper subset of "born citizen"
(#4 = "proper sutset" is "best type of set" / #29 = "not only a subset")

DR. C. – nbC IS a proper subset of "citizen"
(concession as to "type of set" / "#4 = proper subset is best type of set")
D – nbC is NOT a proper subset of "born citizen"
(#31 & #32 – Kevin, aka Dr. Conspiracy & Kevin, aka S...)

S... – nbC is NOT a proper subset of "citizen"
(#29 & #30 = original assertion of Kevin, aka S...)
S – nbC IS a proper subset of "citizen"
(#2 concession by Kevin, aka S... after #4 concession by Kevin, aka Dr. Conspiracy)
S – nbC is NOT a proper subset of "born citizen"
(#31 & #32 – Kevin, aka Dr. Conspiracy & Kevin, aka S...)

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

"... because the sets are not equal" redux
or
Oh well, Mario, it looks like you win


3/

So Kevin, aka Slartibartfast, aka S... AND Kevin, aka Dr. Conspiracy, BOTH do NOT concede that "natural born Citizen" is a "proper subset" of BOTH "citizen" AND "born citizen."

Kevin, aka Slartibartfast, aka S... AND Kevin, aka Dr. Conspiracy BOTH concede that "natural born Citizen" is ONLY a "proper subset" of "citizen."

Kevin, aka Slartibartfast, aka S... AND Kevin, aka Dr. Conspiracy BOTH do NOT concede that "natural born Citizen" is ALSO a "proper subset" of "born citizen."

So, if the Obama-birther mathematicians concede that "natural born Citizen" AND "citizen" are NOT equal to each other, on what philosophical or mathematical basis do the Obama-birther mathematicians assert that "natural born Citizen" AND "born citizen" ARE equal to each other?

If the Obama-birther mathematicians assert that "citizen" is NOT equal to "natural born Citizen" and "born citizen" IS equal to "natural born Citizen," then the Obama-birther mathematicians are asserting that "citizen" and "born citizen" are NOT equal to each other.

Right?

ajtelles said...

"... because the sets are not equal" redux
or
Oh well, Mario, it looks like you win


4/

So, on what philosophical or mathematical basis do the Obama-birther mathematicians say that "natural born Citizen" AND "born citizen" ARE equal to each other?

So, on what philosophical or mathematical basis do the Obama-birther mathematicians say that "natural born Citizen" AND "citizen" ARE NOT equal to each other?

Something is NOT computing using the Obama-birther calculator.

What is missing from the equation, if anything?

The Obama birth narrative that ONE (1) U.S. "citizen" parent is John Jay original intent and original genesis good 'nuf and is as good as TWO (2) U.S. "citizen" parents is the Obama birth narrative achilles heel and the achilees heel for future "one-U.S.citizen-parent" POTUS aspirants, 'cause it still and always will take the union of TWO persons to produce ONE child, and it takes TWO singular citizenship U.S. "citizen" parents to produce ONE singular citizenship U.S. "citizen" ("citizen" and "born citizen" AND "natural born Citizen") child.

Two dual citizenship parents can NOT produce a singular citizenship "natural born Citizen" child for the same natural law AND positive law reason that two singular citizenship parents can NOT produce a dual citizenship "natural born Citizen" child.

A singular citizenship child is NOT possible by natural law OR positive law from dual citizenship parents.

A dual citizenship child is NOT possible by natural law OR positive law from singular citizenship parents.

The simple math and physical reality is that TWO produce ONE.

The physical reality is that two persons produce one child, AND the political reality is that ONLY TWO singular citizenship U.S. "citizen" parents can EVER produce ONE singular citizenship U.S. "citizen" child who is a John Jay "natural born Citizen" child.

TWO parents, ONE child.
U.S. soil, not foreign soil.
TWO U.S. citizen parents, ONE U.S. citizen child.

Mario, not being a mathematician but understanding physical reality, how about this "the sets are not equal" answer for a "what does THAT mean" summation?

Since not every child is born to TWO U.S. citizen parents, and not every child is born to ONE U.S. citizen parent, "natural born Citizen" is a proper subset of "citizen" AND "born citizen" ONLY when birth in the U.S. is to TWO U.S. citizen parents, but NOT when birth in the U.S. OR on foreign soil is ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent.

To clarify "what does THAT mean" questions for non-mathematicians and PhD mathematicians, THAT is what a "natural born Citizen" means in John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" for himself and for his posterity.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

You said:

“Since not every child is born to TWO U.S. citizen parents, and not every child is born to ONE U.S. citizen parent, "natural born Citizen" is a proper subset of "citizen" AND "born citizen" ONLY when birth in the U.S. is to TWO U.S. citizen parents, but NOT when birth in the U.S. OR on foreign soil is ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent.”

I would say it this way:

A natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

A child who is born to one U.S. citizen parent in the U.S. is both a citizen and a born citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

A child who is born to no U.S. parents in the U.S. is a citizen and a born citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

A child who is born to two U.S. citizen parents out of the U.S. is a citizen and a born citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

A child who is born to one U.S. citizen parent out of the U.S. is a citizen and a born citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

A child who is born to no U.S. citizen parents out of the U.S. may be a citizen through naturalization after birth, but is neither a born citizen nor a natural born citizen.

Hence, all natural born citizens are citizens and born citizens and because being a citizen or a born citizen is not the equivalent to being a natural born citizen, natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens and born citizens.

Our subset and proper subset analysis leads us to these conclusions. Here is the Anti-Obot progression of U.S. membership, from the start of membership to the gold standard of membership, natural born citizen:

Citizen to

Born citizen to

Natural born citizen.

Notice that there exist three sets of memberships and that all natural born citizens are citizens and born citizens.

Here is the Maskell/Obot progression of U.S. membership, from the start of membership to the gold standard of membership, natural born citizen:

Citizen to

born citizen.

Notice that there are only two sets of memberships, with natural born citizen missing.

As you can see, the Maskell/Obots conflate a born citizen with a natural born citizen. They have substituted born citizen for natural born citizen, meaning that there is no need for the clause natural born citizen because born citizen has the equivalent meaning. They have written the qualifier “natural” out of the Constitution, meaning that they have written the “natural born citizen” clause out of it and put in its place the “born citizen” clause. As I explained in my previous comment, such an interpretation according to Chief Justice John Marshall is inadmissible.

The reason that the Maskell/Obots have written “natural” or “natural born citizen” out of the Constitution is that “natural born citizen” has only ever had one meaning which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of birth. Minor; Wong Kim Ark. By substituting “born citizen” in its place, they can then just point to various definitions of that truncated clause, either provided by the Fourteenth Amendment or Acts of Congress, and say that all persons who satisfy those definitions, being born citizens are therefore natural born citizens. What the Maskell/Obots have done is to attempt to amend Article II’s “natural born citizen” clause by removing “natural” from it and creating the Article II “born citizen” clause, all without duly ratified constitutional amendment. Through such unconstitutional amendment, they can make Obama a natural born citizen. (Now that’s funny, because first they tell us that born citizen is sufficient, but then they tell us that Obama is a natural born citizen; but what do you expect from Obot logic?) In order to sneak Obama through on their “born citizen” magic carpet, they are compelled to also maintain that Cruz, Rubio, Jindal, and Haley are also natural born citizens SIMPLY BECAUSE they are born citizens. The Obots are such nice people, arguing that these particular Republicans are natural born citizens.

ajtelles said...

John Jay Dittos "the sets are NOT equal"...

Dittos Mario, I like the varous ways of expressing the different citizenship scenarios. They look familiar.

My new best friend original birther and original BIG Thinker John Jay would probably say "dittos Mario" also to "I would say it this way" as you wrote on July 5, 2014 at 1:04 AM, because it encourages clarifying language based on 1787 era common law BEFORE there were congressional naturalization acts and amendments and SCOTUS decisions, and it allows clarifying language from them to be adduced as needed.

I also "would say it this way", and your very clear "a child who..." scenarios can also be made John Jay 1700s common law compliant at the same time that they, just as you wrote them, clearly are 2000s current law, 2000s positive law compliant, meaning in agreement with all current congressional naturalization acts, amendments and court decisions.

My new best friend original birther and original BIG Thinker John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" can also be very helpful for Article II BIG Thinkers in 2000s America. Maybe, before it's too late, maybe original birther and original BIG Thinker John Jay can become the new best friend of the Republican Party before they hug and kiss the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth that only "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is good 'nuf for their Republican "MY GUY," the nascent Republican "MY GUY" who will be defended by Republican "MY GUY" is good 'nuf- birthers who will replace the Democratic Obama-birthers.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

>> Art,
>> You said:

>> “Since not every child is born to TWO U.S. citizen parents, and not every child is born to ONE U.S. citizen parent, "natural born Citizen" is a proper subset of "citizen" AND "born citizen" ONLY when birth in the U.S. is to TWO U.S. citizen parents, but NOT when birth in the U.S. OR on foreign soil is ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent.”

>> I would say it this way:


Two One Zero – U.S. Soil & Foreign Soil

1- TWO U.S. Citizen Parents – U.S. soil
>> A natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Instead of my bringing the set theory language into my "since not every child is..." comment, it would have been better to simply state the obvious from John Jay's 1787 perspective about a child who is "natural born" to TWO U.S. citizen parents. In 1787 America Jay was definitely NOT implying that he considered birth to only ONE U.S. citizen parent to be his original intent with original genesis meaning, especially since in 1787 America there were not yet naturalization acts to distinguish between U.S. citizens and aliens.

To clarify what I mean, in explaining to others the struggle to control the words of the Article II debate (control the words, control the language, control the debate, control the conclusion), I'm trying to distinguish between what original birther and original BIG Thinker John Jay's original intent was in the 1700s, BEFORE there were any congressional naturalization acts and constitutional amendments, with the 2000s BIG Thinker perspective that can and must adduce naturalization acts, amendments and SCOTUS decisions to accurately convey the original intent of the 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 law, but also 2000s current law.

ajtelles said...

John Jay Dittos "the sets are NOT equal"...

2/

As an example, if the Democratic Party's "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is good 'nuf-birthers, the Obama-birthers, the Obots, and the developing Republican Party's "MY GUY" had only "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" and that is good 'nuf-birthers, if the good 'nuf-birthers do NOT concede that my favorite senator from Texas, Sen. Ted Cruz is NOT implicitly a 1787 Article II "natural born Citizen," and if they do NOT concede that Sen. Cruz IS explicitly a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act "citizen" ONLY, because he was born out of U.S. jurisdiction to ONLY one U.S. citizen parent and one "alien" parent, then the Democratic Party Obama-birthers and Republican Party nascent "MY GUY" is good 'nuf-birthers" are NOT John Jay original intent and original genesis meaning compliant and are NOT John Jay caliber BIG Thinkers.

2- ONE U.S. Citizen Parent – U.S. Soil
>> A child who is born to one U.S. citizen parent in the U.S. is both a citizen and a born citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

John Jay would probably say that according to the 1700s common law, a child who is born to one U.S. citizen parent "father" in the U.S. is BOTH a citizen AND a born citizen, but NOT a "natural born Citizen."

John Jay would probably say that according to the 1700s common law, a child who is born to one U.S. citizen parent "mother" and one foreign citizen father in the U.S. IS an alien, NOT a citizen and NOT a born citizen, and definitely NOT a "natural born Citizen."

John Jay would probably agree that since the first naturalization act in 1790 and up to the most current "controlling legal authority" naturalization act or amendment valid in 2000s America, a child who is born to one U.S. citizen parent mother and one foreign citizen father in the U.S. IS a citizen AND a born citizen, BUT definitely NOT a "natural born Citizen."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

John Jay would probably have similar comments for the other "a child who..." scenarios to help our Democratic Party good 'nuf-birthers, Obama-birther fellow Americans and our Republican Party nascent "MY GUY" is good 'nuf-birthers and fellow Americans become John Jay compliant and BIG Thinkers.

3- ZERO U.S. Citizen Parents – U.S. Soil
>> A child who is born to no U.S. parents in the U.S. is a citizen and a born citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

4- TWO U.S. Citizen Parents – Foreign Soil
>> A child who is born to two U.S. citizen parents out of the U.S. is a citizen and a born citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

5- ONE U.S. Citizen Parent – Foreign Soil
>> A child who is born to one U.S. citizen parent out of the U.S. is a citizen and a born citizen, but not a natural born citizen.

6- ZERO U.S. Citizen Parents – Foreign Soil
>> A child who is born to no U.S. citizen parents out of the U.S. may be a citizen through naturalization after birth, but is neither a born citizen nor a natural born citizen.

As you wrote, Mario,

>> Hence, all natural born citizens are citizens and born citizens and because being a citizen or a born citizen is not the equivalent to being a natural born citizen, natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens and born citizens.

>> Our subset and proper subset analysis leads us to these conclusions. Here is the Anti-Obot progression of U.S. membership, from the start of membership to the gold standard of membership, natural born citizen:

>> Citizen to
Born citizen to
Natural born citizen.

ajtelles said...

John Jay Dittos "the sets are NOT equal"...

3/

>> Notice that there exist three sets of memberships and that all natural born citizens are citizens and born citizens.

>> Here is the Maskell/Obot progression of U.S. membership, from the start of membership to the gold standard of membership, natural born citizen:

>> Citizen to
born citizen.

>> Notice that there are only two sets of memberships, with natural born citizen missing.
>> As you can see, the Maskell/Obots conflate a born citizen with a natural born citizen.

[...]


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

OLD

>> “Since not every child is born to TWO U.S. citizen parents, and not every child is born to ONE U.S. citizen parent, "natural born Citizen" is a proper subset of "citizen" AND "born citizen" ONLY when birth in the U.S. is to TWO U.S. citizen parents, but NOT when birth in the U.S. OR on foreign soil is ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent.”

NEW

Since not every child is born in the U.S. to
1- TWO U.S. citizen parents,
and not every child is born in the U.S. to
2- ONE U.S. citizen parent,
and not every child is born in the U.S. to
3- ZERO U.S. citizen parents,
and not every child is born on foreign soil to
4- TWO U.S. citizen parents,
and not every child is born on foreign soil to
5- ONE U.S. citizen parent,
and not every child is born on foreign soil to
6- ZERO U.S. citizen parents,
obviously,
"natural born Citizen" can NOT be the same as "citizen" OR "born citizen" OR, of course, "naturalized citizen."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Since "the sets are NOT equal," the "natural born Citizen" can ONLY be a proper subset of "citizen" AND "born citizen."

If a "citizen" child is not a U.S. "born citizen" with TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE the child is born, the "citizen" child can NOT be a "natural born Citizen" child and be John Jay original intent AND original genesis compliant and so is NOT "...eligible to the Office of President."

Not even my favorite Texas senator, Sen. Ted Cruz.

The 1700s common law understanding of the "unity" part of "unity of citizenship and allegiance" is still relevant in 2000s America, even after the 1922 Cable Act.

ONLY born in the U.S. to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

Defenders of John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" as birth in the U.S. to two U.S. citizen parents are absolutely NOT questioning the "allegiance" of Sen. Cruz to "We the People" of the "... more perfect Union" in 2000s America. What we are pointing out is simply that words mean things, and just because the Democrats chose to ignore John Jay's original intent does not mean that the Republicans can ALSO ignore John Jay's original intent.

In other words, just becuaswe the Democratic Party "MY GUY" with only "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" got away with usurping the office of President does NOT mean that the Republican Party "MY GUY" with only "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" should try it too.

If their "MY GUY" was not and still is not Article II compliant, then our "MY GUY" is also NOT Article II compliant.

John Jay, my new 1787 best friend, would probably say "ditto that" Art.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Art wrote: obviously,
"natural born Citizen" can NOT be the same as "citizen" OR "born citizen" OR, of course, "naturalized citizen."

Citizen + born = born citizen.
Citizen + natural = natural citizen.

wise + old = nothing (wise-old man)
natural + born = nothing specific (natural-born = a term of art referring to any British subject of any origin (by procreation or by common law or by naturalization).

natural born = nothing; two separate adjectives, -no term of art.
Natural + citizen = natural citizen, which = natural born citizen.

Natural citizen = citizen born of citizens.
Born citizen = natural citizen OR alien-conceived common law citizen.

The President must be a "born citizen". But which kind? Either? No. A natural "born citizen".

The President must be a natural citizen, but which type; a natural citizen by legal fiction or a natural citizen by birth?

He must be a natural citizen by birth, -he must be born as a natural citizen, -must be a born natural citizen, i.e., a natural born citizen.

It's strictly common sense; not doctrine.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Our U.S. Supreme Court has stated that we are to look to the common law to help us interpret the Constitution. When it comes to defining an Article II 'natural born citizen,' you automatically default to the English common law for its definition. But the common law of which the Supreme Court has spoken is not only the English common law, for we also have American national common law."

"There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes." "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history. -- United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 654 (1898), quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 478.

Thus we see that Dr. Conspiracy was correct to default to English common law to interpret the language of the Constitution. According the U.S. Supreme Court, your "American national common law" does not exist.

ajtelles said...

only 1 original intent...

Adrien, what you wrote on July 6, 2014 at 4:23 AM is interesting, but which of the 6 scenarios that the quote is associated with that I posted on July 5, 2014 at 6:18 PM, which of the scenarios does it answer?

NEW

Since not every child is born in the U.S. to
1- TWO U.S. citizen parents,
and not every child is born in the U.S. to
2- ONE U.S. citizen parent,
and not every child is born in the U.S. to
3- ZERO U.S. citizen parents,
and not every child is born on foreign soil to
4- TWO U.S. citizen parents,
and not every child is born on foreign soil to
5- ONE U.S. citizen parent,
and not every child is born on foreign soil to
6- ZERO U.S. citizen parents,
obviously,
"natural born Citizen" can NOT be the same as "citizen" OR "born citizen" OR, of course, "naturalized citizen."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

What was John Jay implying?

What was John Jay's common law implicit original intent and original genesis meaning in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" BEFORE there were ANY naturalization acts or amendments or court decisions, and there were only "citizens" and "aliens" BEFORE September 17, 1787?

It's a simple question, and the answer is just as simple, and does not require analysis of various words or extraneous concepts.

My choice is #1.
Born in the U.S. to Two U.S. citizen parents.

Since the 1700s common law understanding of citizenship was that the U.S. citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the singular citizenship of BOTH parents determined the singular citizenship of the child, John Jay was obviously ONLY implying birth in the U.S. ONLY to two U.S. citizen parents.

>> obviously,
>> "natural born Citizen" can NOT be the same as "citizen" OR "born citizen" OR, of course, "naturalized citizen."


My choice is #1.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Since "the sets are NOT equal," the "natural born Citizen" can ONLY be a proper subset of "citizen" AND "born citizen."

If a "citizen" child is not a U.S. "born citizen" with TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE the child is born, the "citizen" child can NOT be a "natural born Citizen" child and be John Jay original intent AND original genesis compliant and so is NOT "...eligible to the Office of President."

Not even my favorite Texas senator, Sen. Ted Cruz.

The 1700s common law understanding of the "unity" part of "unity of citizenship and allegiance" is still relevant in 2000s America, even after the 1922 Cable Act.

ONLY born in the U.S. to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

PS.

Adrien, although I did not read any of the comments at Fogbow forum, from what you wrote earlier here on Mario's forum, it seems that defenders of the Obama birth narrative, the only "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is good 'nuf-birthers, the Obama-birthers, the "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama... Obatized Obots are shallow thinkers who use shallow words as they skim the surface at the shallow end of the intellectual pool of pond scum.

Of course, I could be wrong.
They may be BIG Thinkers and deep substantive thinkers who simply prefer the shallow end.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

Finally—a great point...

Mario, you may respond to Unknown, aka Unknown #11, aka Bryan, before I post this, but Bryan has an excellent historical point on July 6, 2014 at 8:57 AM.

I just wonder if it his alone or did somebody else recommend to him the 1898 court comment about English common law so that Unknown #11's unknown cohort can communicate to you through Unknown.?

Whatever, it is still a great comment by the 1898 U.S. v Wong Kim Ark court writing about 1700s common law BEFORE there were any naturalization acts, amendments or court decisions.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
[...]

>> "There is no common law of the United States,
in the sense of a national customary law,
distinct from the common law of England
as adopted by the several States each for itself,
applied as its local law,
and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes."

>> "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement
that there is no national common law.

>> The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States
is necessarily influenced by the fact that
its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law,
and are to be read in the light of its history.

>> -- United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 654 (1898), quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 478.

Here is Bryan's cogent analysis.

>> Thus we see that Dr. Conspiracy was correct
to default to English common law
to interpret the language of the Constitution.

>>According the U.S. Supreme Court,
your "American national common law"
does not exist.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Mario, you've dealt with this before, so I'm not going to add a comment now.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Art asked: "Adrien, what you wrote is interesting, but which of the 6 scenarios that the quote is associated with does it answer?"

You fail to grasp what is outside of the box of your thinking. You must leave that box in order to understand the reality of what a natural citizen is.
Your scenarios are all connected to something that does not exist in Natural Law, and that is the insignificant factor of the location of a mother's body when her child exits it.
In nature and in political identification, all that matters is one's inherited political character via their parents.

Natural citizenship is about nothing other than the parents. Place of birth is only of legal significance for children born of outsiders, immigrants. Not of significance to natives.

If George Washington's wife gave birth to a child while visiting Maryland, to which colony would it have belonged? Maryland? -or Virginia where he was a native (or resident citizen)?

If Sitting Bull had a child that was not born on Sioux land, would it have been an alien to the Sioux nation? Or a possible future Chief based purely on native blood, on descent?

Art, here is a revision of your statement which contained a logical fallacy:

"Since the 1700s common law understanding of citizenship was that the U.S. citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the singular citizenship of BOTH parents determined the singular citizenship of the child, John Jay was obviously ONLY implying birth to two U.S. citizen parents.

What you added was logically extraneous and unrelated to anything preceding it. Like a second little head added to a Frankenstein creation.
You can't and don't logically connect place-of-birth to parentage, and neither did Vattel. He understood that natural membership was purely via patrilineal descent and nothing else. Not the nationality of the wife, nor grandparents, nor cousins, nor soil on which born. The father was EVERYTHING! He was the HEAD. His nationality was the Parent Set. All within his set were subsets of his nationality. If he was American then so was his wife and children. It all began and ended with him, not borders.
If born of Americans, then you were by nature an American also.

Anonymous said...

The Deep Waters of Full Jurisdiction.
The jurisdiction under which an alien-born child must be born in order for citizenship to attach at birth is understood by essentially no one.
The shallow thinking is that it merely refers to civil law, but that is pure folly as national sovereign authority far exceeds the authority of State and local civil law, and federal dept. regulations.
It can be compared to a swimming pool, with a shallow end and a deep end.
In the shallow end everyone is permitted and that's where most spend all of their time, whether they be natives or foreigners; native-born or foreign-born, ambassadors or illegal immigrants.

But in the middle only certain persons are allowed to swim. They are all adults, all citizens or permanent immigrants of both genders.
In the deep end, only those swimmers of the middle section who are male are allowed. THAT is the deep end of jurisdiction, and that is what the 14th Amendment refers to, -not the shallow end swimmers.

But in the era of Women's Rights, it must be presumed that those in the middle section are also under full jurisdiction and thus able to give birth to alien-born children who are deemed to be American citizens.
But no one from the shallow end, limited to it alone, is permitted in the middle section. That includes foreign ambassadors, visitors, guests and students. They cannot give birth to Americans because they are not under the fuller jurisdiction that is required in a sane world.


Unfortunately, we do not live in a sane world, nor a sane country and thus the child of a transient Visa Card student is viewed as being eligible to be President when in fact he is not even an American citizen by the real meaning of what jurisdiction is.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You and your Obot colleagues maintain that Minor v. Happersett’s definition of a natural born citizen is dicta because it was not necessary for the Court to inquire into the citizenship of Virginia Minor, for the parties had conceded her citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. But you are wrong, because a court always makes sure that it has jurisdiction and never assumes that it does simply because the parties say that it does."

Do you think Virginia Minor had to be a natural-born citizen for the Court to have jurisdiction? That sure isn't what the Court said. "It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens." [at 168] In some cases, determining what parts of a Court opinion are obiter dictum is difficult, but here we have an explicit statement on what is sufficient. The note on "natural-born citizen" was not necessary for what the Court had to consider and thus dicta.

What's more, Minor v. Happersett does not define natural born citizen, even as dicta. It says that children of citizens born in the country are undoubtedly natural born citizens, and that Congress was under its power to consider children of citizens born out of the limits of the United States to be natural born citizens. Neither of those is a definition.

-Bryan

ajtelles said...

no answer...

Adrien, aka h20oflife, aka h20, on July 6, 2014 at 2:57 PM you responded, but "you fail to grasp" a simple question, so, since you did not answer the simple question of which scenario you agreed with, there is no response that is to your non-response.

h20, your responses are simply impertinent.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

definition by stipulation...

Mario, on July 6, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Unknown, aka Unknown #11, aka Bryan wrote in complete sentences.

How do we know that this is only Bryan expressing his own thoughts since in the past he as merely copied and pasted your words with a few of his own finger-wags?

Unknown #11 wrote

>> "What's more,
Minor v. Happersett
does not define
natural born citizen,
even as dicta."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Well, of course the Minor court did not "define natural born citizen, even as dicta" 'cause it did not need to, since they stipulated that Minor was born in the U.S. to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

The stipulation is itself definition.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I will concede that I made a mistake if you can demonstrate Jack Maskell arriving at his conclusion [...]"

I showed that you fabricated the argument you attributed to Maskell. Getting you to admit a mistake was not and is not my goal.


On the same subject, Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You maintain at May 26, 2014 at 7:33 PM that I have erroneously presented Jack Maskell’s position, arguing that I cannot quote him saying exactly what I maintain his argument is."

So that's no, you cannot cite Maskell making the arguments you attributed to him. Not exactly, not in paraphrase, not even close.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Yet, when you and the Obots put forth their argument that Wong Kim Ark held that Wong was a natural born citizen, and that Maskell is correct in his position that that all born citizens, regardless of how they obtained their citizenship, are natural born citizens, when asked to produce a quote from the Wong Kim Ark or any other source that proves their position, you and the Obots are not able to produce that quote"

I've quoted it over and over. I quoted a court to which you took your case quoting it to you: "All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens." I understand you are tired of hearing it, but that doesn't make it go away. Putting your fingers in your ears and humming is your right, but it's not much a legal strategy.

-Bryan

Unknown said...

Irony.

Message of President Chester A. Arthur to the Congress of the United States, December 1884.

"'An uniform rule of naturalization', such as the Constitution contemplates should, among other things, clearly define the status of persons born within the United States subject to a foreign power (section 1992) and of minor children of fathers who have declared their intention to become citizens but have failed to perfect their naturalization."

A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents, Volume 6
http://books.google.com/books?id=-_EtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA4828&dq=%22subject+to+a+foreign+power%22+born&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cMC5U67NFIKWqAbj44KQCQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=%22subject%20to%20a%20foreign%20power%22%20born&f=false

Someone said that there was no evidence that Chester Arthur ever concerned himself with naturalization issues, and the status of the children of aliens.
It looks like they were incorrect.

Unknown said...

Ajtelles wrote:
"Finally-—a great point...
Mario, you may respond to Unknown, aka Unknown #11, aka Bryan, before I post this, but Bryan has an excellent historical point on July 6, 2014 at 8:57 AM."

Thanks, but I have a quibble with your first word, "finally". I've several times before used that same SCOTUS quote, "There is no common law of the United States [...]" to refute Esquire Apuzzo's notion of "American national common law". I did so over a year ago in comments on the Ted Cruz article.

Mr. Apuzzo complains that I'm repetitious. Yes, I am, just much less repetitious than Mr. Apuzzo. He calls me a "water carrier" for stating arguments that I heard other people make. I do that. I learn from other people. Which brings us to:


Ajtelles wondered:
"I just wonder if it his alone or did somebody else recommend to him the 1898 court comment about English common law so that Unknown #11's unknown cohort can communicate to you through Unknown."

I'd be happy to answer, but I don't remember. In the very first article in the archives of this blog, dated 20 Dec 2008, Mr. Apuzzo wrote, "Some argue that the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898) is the final word on 'natural born Citizen' and that under that decision, as long as Obama was born on U.S. soil, he is a 'natural born Citizen.'" I've already admitted that I was not among those explaining Wong in 2008. For me, it was not an easy read. I studied the Opinion and I learned from other people. Which way did I find the quote that so definitively dismisses Apuzzo's notion of "American national common law"? Sorry, don't remember.

Unknown said...

-Bryan/Unknown said...
What's more, Minor v. Happersett does not define natural born citizen, even as dicta. It says that children of citizens born in the country are undoubtedly natural born citizens, and that Congress was under its power to consider children of citizens born out of the limits of the United States to be natural born citizens. Neither of those is a definition.

Minor v Happersett -
"Congress shall have power "to establish a uniform rule of naturalization." Thus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization."

It said that Congress had control over naturalization.

Someone naturalized is not natural born, by definition.

Minor v Happersett -
At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.

These were citizens; these were natural-born citizens.
That is a definition.

Unknown said...

"It is manifest, then, that by international law, the political or national status of the father fixes that of the child and hence the universally adopted rule, prevailing primarily among all nations, that the children of citizens are citizens, although born in a foreign country. "

"With this principle of international law before it, the same Congress which framed and proposed the constitutional definition of citizenship, adopted section one of the Civil Rights Bill, - a measure designed to enforce the provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment, and therein defined citizenship as embracing, "All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed." 1"

" Thus in harmony with international law it was made a condition precedent to citizenship that a person born within the United States, be not subject to any foreign power at the time of his birth, and that contemporaneous exposition of the constitutional definition, emanating as it does from those who framed and proposed it, is clearly the most reliable, and proves conclusively that the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," which is the most important part of the definition found in the constitution, does not mean the territorial jurisdiction of the United States or, which is the same thing, the jurisdiction of the laws, but means the jurisdiction of the nation as such, - the political jurisdiction, and is but an affirmative method of expressing the proposition that a person born in the United States must not at the time of birth be subject to any foreign power: thus making it indispensable to citizenship by birth, that the parent be then an American citizen; for otherwise if he be an alien the child will be subject to the country of the father."


United States Law Review, Volume 29 (1895)
http://books.google.com/books?id=-oU2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA391&dq=%22subject+to+a+foreign+power%22+born&hl=en&sa=X&ei=r7y5U6ztDteXqAaM8oCACQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=%22subject%20to%20a%20foreign%20power%22%20born&f=false

Title 25, Revised Statutes section 1992, was passed by Congress in 1874, and confirmed what "subject to the jurisdiction" meant - "not subject to any foreign power."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson,

Please answer the following question with either a yes or no:

Is this a definition of a natural born citizen: The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens?

I am not asking you to agree or disagree with the statement. I only want to know from you whether it is a definition of a natural born citizen.

Please no evasive answers like our resident PhD. Mathematician, Slartibartfast, gives, like going to the Head of the Department to protest the question.

ajtelles said...

Finally—again...

Inquiring minds want to know why Unknown, aka Unknown #11, and Bryan, continues to post the 1898 court quote if he has received responses before?

Is there a specifice item in the previous responses by Mario that is not clear, that is error? What is it specifically? Reposting the same 1898 court quote with a short comment that does not articulate a rebuttal is not an answer.

>>>>> "There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct
from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law,
and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes."

>>>>> "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law.
The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions
are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.

>>>>>-- United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 654 (1898), quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 478.

>>>>>Thus we see that Dr. Conspiracy was correct to default to English common law to interpret the language
of the Constitution. According the U.S. Supreme Court, your "American national common law" does not exist.

>>>>>July 6, 2014 at 8:57 AM

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Mario, it is apparent from Unknow's friendly response that he appreciates intelligent point-counterpoint on your forum that is lacking on Fogbow's forum.

>>>>>Ajtelles wondered:
"I just wonder if it his alone or did somebody else recommend to him the 1898 court comment about English common law so that Unknown #11's unknown cohort can communicate to you through Unknown."

>>>>>I'd be happy to answer, but I don't remember.
In the very first article in the archives of this blog, dated 20 Dec 2008, Mr. Apuzzo wrote,
"Some argue that the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark,
169 U. S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898)
is the final word on 'natural born Citizen'
and that under that decision,
as long as Obama was born on U.S. soil,
he is a 'natural born Citizen.'"

>>>>> I've already admitted that
I was not among those explaining Wong in 2008.

>>>>>For me, it was not an easy read.
I studied the Opinion and I learned from other people.
Which way did I find the quote
that so definitively dismisses Apuzzo's notion of "American national common law"?
Sorry, don't remember.
July 6, 2014 at 6:12 PM

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Mario, it seems that consentious point-counterpoint is intended by Unknow, aka Bryan.

Of course, I could be wrong, since I've been wrong before when Obama-birthers have posted here before.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson,

I argue that Jack Maskell maintains, without historical and legal sources to support his conclusion, that all born citizens, regardless of by what means such status may have been obtained, are natural born citizens.

You said:

“So that's no, you cannot cite Maskell making the arguments you attributed to him. Not exactly, not in paraphrase, not even close.”

Try this:

"The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term “natural born” citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship “by birth” or “at birth,” either by being born “in” the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship “at birth.” Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an “alien” required to go through the legal process of “naturalization” to become a U.S. citizen.~~Jack Maskell.

http://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf

As I have demonstrated, Jack Maskell is in check mate given his last statement. We have produced a significant amount of evidence here that demonstrates that the Framers viewed a child born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization which could occur only after birth. Hence, by Maskell’s own concession, such a child cannot be a natural born citizen.

De facto President Barack Obama, allegedly born in the United States, but to a U.S. citizen mother and an alien father (making both parents aliens under the Framers’ standard that wives acquired the citizenship of their husbands and in any event under current law, one citizen and one alien parent and thus not born to two U.S. citizen parents), falls into that category of people who under the early naturalization acts of Congress was alien born and in need of naturalization after birth. Hence, Obama is a person who according to Maskell’s own statement is not a natural born citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson,

I asked you to produce for us evidence that supports Jack Maskell’s thesis that all born citizens, regardless of how they may have acquired such status, are natural born citizen and you produce a quote from Justice Swayne in Rhodes which is:

"All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens."

United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (No. 16,151) (C.C. Ky. 1866) (Justice Swayne on circuit).

Now that is funny. First, you have not provided how Justice Swayne defined “born in the allegiance of the United States” or that whatever his definition may have been also applied to an Article II “natural born citizen.” Second, here is the best part, Justice Swayne was on both Courts that decided The Slaughterhouse Cases (1872) (said that children born in the United States to alien parents were not citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment) and Minor v. Happersett (1875) (defined a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth and that “there have been doubts” whether a child born in the jurisdiction to alien parents was a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment).

So, Mr. Olson, where do you think you are going with your Swayne quote?

P.S. I am still waiting for you to answer my simple question with a yes or no:

Is this a definition of a natural born citizen: The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson,

You said that Minor said that “Congress was under its power to consider children of citizens born out of the limits of the United States to be natural born citizens.”

Provide a quote from Minor which demonstrates the truthfulness of your assertion.

Even if you can provide that quote, how do respond to the fact that if Congress has the power to consider children born out of the United States to be natural born citizens, then it has the power to repeal what it did earlier and consider those children only “citizens of the United States,” then aliens, and then “citizens of the United States.” See the early Naturalization Acts (in these Acts Congress did just that). The last time that I looked at the current Acts of Congress, Congress did not consider those children natural born citizens, but rather just “citizens of the United States” at birth. So how do you explain all this legislative activity? I would say that it does not look too good for your Congressional naturalization theory of a natural born citizen which can rescue Senator Ted Cruz, even assuming (which it does not) that Congress has the power to change by statute rather than by duly ratified constitutional amendment the definition of terms whose meaning exist under the Constitution. Congress simply has not exercised such power in any current naturalization act to which you can look for help for Senator Cruz.

ajtelles said...

Before or After 1700s Common law Era...

Mario,

Your last paragraph on July 6, 2014 at 9:11 PM hit the nail on the head.

>> De facto President Barack Obama,
allegedly born in the United States,
but to a U.S. citizen mother and an alien father
(making both parents aliens
under the Framers’ standard
that wives acquired the citizenship of their husbands
and in any event under current law,
one citizen and one alien parent
and thus not born to two U.S. citizen parents),
falls into that category of people who
under the early naturalization acts of Congress
was alien born and in need of naturalization after birth.

>>Hence, Obama is a person who according to Maskell’s own statement is not a natural born citizen.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

See, it does not matter if the discussion is about citizen and alien before OR after the first naturalization act in 1790 and ALL naturalizations act since then and ALL amendments since the first 10 amendments in 1791 and ALL Supreme Court decisions since the first one, an "alien" has NEVER been defined as a "citizen" OR a "born citizen" OR a "natural born Citizen" before OR after naturalization.

In the 1700s, July 25, 1787, when Joh Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the original intnet and original genesis meaning of birth in the U.S. to TWO U.S. citizen married parents, the original public meaning, the common law understanding of citizenship was that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

Since the 1700s an "alien" is STILL an "alien" and NOT eligible to be POTUS.
Since the 1700s an "alien" child is STILL and "alien" child and STILL is NOT eligible to be POTUS.

ONLY a child born in the U.S. to TWO U.S. citizen parents is a "citizen" who is a "born citizen" who is a "natural born Citizen" who is "...eligible to the Office of President."

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson,

I of II

I said to you:

"You and your Obot colleagues maintain that Minor v. Happersett’s definition of a natural born citizen is dicta because it was not necessary for the Court to inquire into the citizenship of Virginia Minor, for the parties had conceded her citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. But you are wrong, because a court always makes sure that it has jurisdiction and never assumes that it does simply because the parties say that it does."

You responded:

“Do you think Virginia Minor had to be a natural-born citizen for the Court to have jurisdiction? That sure isn't what the Court said. "It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens." [at 168] In some cases, determining what parts of a Court opinion are obiter dictum is difficult, but here we have an explicit statement on what is sufficient. The note on "natural-born citizen" was not necessary for what the Court had to consider and thus dicta.”

~~~~~

First, in the Court’s discussion of citizenship, citizen and natural born citizen are inextricably intertwined. The Court arrives at its conclusion that Virginia Minor was a citizen by first defining who were the original citizens and then natural born citizens. So your attempt to divide the Court’s thoughtful and careful analysis of American citizenship into citizen and natural born citizen, with the former being necessary and the latter not is absurd.

Second, as I said, the Court had to first decide whether it had jurisdiction and that required proving, and not just accepting the parties’ concession, that Virginia Minor was a citizen. Even though the Fourteenth Amendment was available for its analysis, the amendment uses the word “person.” The Court analyzed the historical basis of citizenship and proved that women, since they were “children” under the common law definition of a natural born citizen, were also “persons” under the Fourteenth Amendment and hence also citizens under that amendment. But it would not have been able to say the same if Virginia Minor had been born in the United States to alien parents, for as the Court explained, “there have been doubts” whether such children and hence “persons” were citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. All this shows that the Court’s discussion of citizenship and specifically what was a natural born citizen is not dicta, but rather one of the Court’s holding.

Third, even subsequent decisions of the Supreme Court considered Minor’s discussion on citizenship to be a holding and not just some dicta as you put forth. You insist that Minor holding is only about voting and not really about citizenship. On the contrary, in several cases that cited Minor, they recognized Minor as a case defining citizenship in the United States. In one case, the Court said that

“this court [Minor] held that the word ‘citizen’ is often used to convey the idea of membership in a nation, and, in that sense, women, if born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction of the United States, have always been considered citizens of the United States, as much so before the adoption of the fourteenth amendment of the constitution as since.”

In Re Lockwood, 154 U.S. 116 (1894).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

The other case is Wong Kim Ark. Wong Kim Ark also shows that Minor is not a case only about voting rights. Wong Kim Ark confirmed that Minor was a case about citizenship and not just about women’s right to vote. It cited and quoted Minor’s exact definition of a “natural-born citizen.” Here is what Wong Kim Ark said about the Minor decision as it relates to who may be “citizens” and who may be “natural-born citizens:”

“The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.”

Wong Kim Ark, 679-81. Note that for the Minor Court to conclude that Virginia Minor was a "citizen," it explained what factors under common law made one a “citizen” at birth, saying that those persons were not only “citizens,” but also “natural-born citizens.” Under the Court’s definition of birthright citizenship, Virginia Minor was both a “citizens” and a “natural-born citizen.” With Virginia Minor only needing to be a “citizen” to be entitle to the Constitution’s privileges and immunities, the Court held that she was a “citizen.”

So we can see that, apart from the many other cases that may have cited Minor v. Happesett as a citizenship case, Wong Kim Ark said that Minor decided the issue of whether Virginia Minor was a “citizen.” Again, in referring to Minor’s addressing the question of her citizenship, it said “[t]he decision in that case.” It said that Minor answered the question of whether Virginia Minor was a “citizen” in the affirmative, although it held that such citizenship status did not give her the right to vote.

So there should not be any question that, even as the U.S. Supreme Court in Wong Kim Ark instructs, Minor was a case not only about a woman’s right to vote, but as much a case about citizenship. Wong Kim Ark itself told us that Minor resolved a question about citizenship. Therefore, Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen” which it gave in the context of resolving the question of whether Virginia Minor was a “citizen” is one of the holdings of the case and binding precedent.

Fourth, it appears that you consider yourself as some expert on being able to understand what parts of a court’s opinion are dicta. You say that simply because it was not necessary for a court to decide some point makes the decision on that point dicta and therefore nonbinding. If understanding dicta was so simple as you suggest, then how do you explain that the U.S. Supreme Court in Marbury v. Madison at the end ruled that Congress’s judiciary act, which gave it original jurisdiction, was contrary to the Constitution’s grant of judicial power to the Supreme Court and that it did not have original jurisdiction pursuant to that act to issue the writ of mandamus because it only had under the Constitution, given the type of claim that was presented to it, appellate jurisdiction and not original jurisdiction, but yet it went through a lengthy discussion of how the defendants violated plaintiff’s rights to his commission and that he had a valid case of mandamus. It was not necessary for the Court to go through all that previous discussion when it knew all along that it had under the Constitution no original jurisdiction (power to decide the case) over the plaintiff’s claim. Would you also consider everything that the Court said prior to its ruling that it had no appellate jurisdiction to be mere dicta?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

I of II

You provided this quote from President Chester Arthur that he made in December 1884:

"'An uniform rule of naturalization', such as the Constitution contemplates should, among other things, clearly define the status of persons born within the United States subject to a foreign power (section 1992) and of minor children of fathers who have declared their intention to become citizens but have failed to perfect their naturalization."

A Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents, Volume 6
http://books.google.com/books?id=-_EtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA4828&dq=%22subject+to+a+foreign+power%22+born&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cMC5U67NFIKWqAbj44KQCQ&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q=%22subject%20to%20a%20foreign%20power%22%20born&f=false

Why did President Chester Arthur have any doubts about the status of persons born in the United States "subject to a foreign power?" Could it be that he did not know that he was in fact one of those persons? Why did he not tell the world that he was?
Arthur was born in 1829 and he was subject to the Naturalization Act of 1802. He was born 18 years after the James Madison Administration in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811, interpreting and applying that Act, ruled that a child born in the United States to alien parents was alien born and in need of naturalization, which could occur, making the child a “citizen of the United States” after birth, if the parents naturalized during the child’s minority and the child was dwelling in the United States.
Remember that the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1872) had said: “The phrase, ‘subject to its jurisdiction’ was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States." Slaughterhouse cases, 83 U.S. 36, 73(1873). So, children of citizens of subjects of foreign states born within the United States were not citizens of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment. That must have stung Arthur was a child of subjects of Great Britain allegedly born in the United States.

But then Arthur got insult added to injury just 2 years later. Remember that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett in 1875 or just 9 years before his address had said:

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens."

Id. at 167-68.

Continue . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Arthur became Vice-President and President in 1881, which was after McClure, The Slaughterhouse Cases, and Minor had been decided. Indeed, Chester knew before running for Vice-President from Minor how the Supreme Court defined the natural born citizens. He also knew that the Court said that there “have been doubts” whether “children born in the jurisdiction to alien parents (the equivalent to “persons born within the United States subject to a foreign power”) were even citizens. For sure, Arthur had one big secret to maintain and that was about his own birth circumstances which had been rejected as acceptable presidential material by the James Madison Administration and the U.S. Supreme Court. If what Minor said was wrong or had no support, and if the English common law had always prevailed in the United States, given that such law provided that children born to alien parents in the dominion and in allegiance to the sovereign were without any doubt natural-born subjects, there is no sound reason why the President of the United States would call upon Congress to rectify a problem which should not have existed. You would think that Arthur would have said that James Madison and the U.S. Supreme Court was off their rocker, for he was a child born in the United States to alien parents and he had been not only the Vice-President, but now was also the President. Imagine Arthur telling the people that, just like we can imagine Senator Cruz, who rather than telling us what a natural born citizen is and that Obama does not meet that definition, he tells us that he does not know whether he himself is a natural born citizen and that he is just going to leave it up to the voters to decide. What a nerve for Arthur to give such a message, as though it did not apply to him, who was supposed to be a natural born citizen, all after the James Madison Administration had spoken on the meaning and application of the Naturalization Act of 1802 which applied to him, the Supreme Court had spoken twice on the matter as to who were the natural born citizen, and he was a “person[] born within the United States subject to a foreign power (section 1992).”

Also, note that President Arthur appointed Horace Gray to the U.S. Supreme Court in 1881. Justice Gray is the author of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1875), in which he erased over 120 years of American history as it applies to defining U.S. citizenship and reinstituted colonial English common law as providing the rule of decision for interpreting our national citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. Query: what did Justice Gray know about Arthur, the person who appointed him to the high Court? Gray agreed with Minor that the Constitution, which then already included the Fourteenth Amendment, did not in words define what a natural born citizen was. Gray did not hold that Wong was a natural born citizen. He did hold that he was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. If Gray knew of Arthur’s little secret, one would think that Gray would have probably believed that it might look to obvious to hold that Wong was a natural born citizen.

Anonymous said...

United States Law Review, Volume 29 (1895);
"...but means the jurisdiction of the nation as such, - the political jurisdiction, and is but an affirmative method of expressing the proposition that a person born in the United States must not at the time of birth be subject to any foreign power: thus making it indispensable to citizenship by birth, that the parent be then an American citizen; for otherwise if he be an alien the child will be subject to the country of the father."

That sounds clear on paper but in real life it lost its clarity, and that is because of residency. Permanent residency changes everything.
It is a tacit statement that one has abandoned their homeland, their membership in it, and its authority over them and has assumed subjection to United States sovereign jurisdiction over them.
It is foolishness to think that such a real-world change of circumstance had no real implications as to which jurisdiction one was actually under.
Just because one has not yet publicly renounced their foreign citizenship and government authority does not mean that they are therefore under it and in subjection to it.
They have a right to choose a new homeland, a new society, and new nation to be their own, but cutting the umbilical cord to the old does not happen in full until the taking of the oath of Allegiance & Renunciation.
The permanent residency of immigrants is the middle staging ground for the final full push into a new political character (nationality) and the shedding of the old.
So his characterization was not accurate in the real world though it makes sense in the theoretical world. A.N.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

Do you ever drive a car on a road? Did you ever notice the colors of the lights when you come to an intersection? There are only three colors, red, green, and yellow. There are no other colors. If there are, it is all in your imagination.

MichaelN said...

Alien parents of native-born children were with a degree of allegiance sufficient to make a "citizen of the United States".

The same degree of allegiance was with US citizen parents of native born children, sufficient to also make their children "citizens of the United States".

The "natural born Citizen" requirement to be eligible for the office of POTUS, was a requirement for person who were ALREADY born "citizens of the United States".

Eligibility for "citizen of the United States" is measured by a degree of parental allegiance, but not necessarily the highest degree.

In the case of a native-born child of alien parents, parental allegiance was a factor (i.e. Wong Kim Ark's parents' permanent domicile, business activity and contribution, etc - see the Wong Kim Ark opinion and ruling)

In the case of children born off-shore to US citizen parents, parental allegiance was a factor, and subject to US residency criteria.

Question to the Obamatized..... why should the parental allegiance of US citizen parents not be a factor and be completely disregarded when determining who of the native born "citizens of the United States" shall be Article II "natural born Citizens"?

Why should parental allegiance count in some cases but not in the most important case?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

You keep telling us that place of birth is not relevant in defining a natural born citizen. Your position just makes no sense given what the Framers knew about how nations made their citizens or subjects.

Place of birth is a necessary factor of being a natural born citizen. The Framers knew that many nations followed jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from one’s parents) respecting children born of their citizens abroad. But they also knew that so many nations, including England, followed jus soli (citizenship acquired from one’s place of birth). Hence, they knew that children born in these jus soli nations who also became citizens of their parents’ nations through jus sanguinis were born owing allegiance to two different nations which was destructive of allegiance to only one nation. For example, there simply is no way that the Framers would have allowed a child born in England to U.S. citizen parents and therefore an English natural born subject to be eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. And do not tell me about the Naturalization Act of 1790, for that act only gave to those foreign-born children the privileges and immunities enjoyed by natural born citizens which could not under the Constitution include the privilege of being eligible to be President. And do not tell me that the Framers did not consider themselves bound by the municipal laws of England which attached their jurisdiction over a child born in its territory. Hence, as you can plainly see, your no-place-of-birth theory of a natural born citizen simply does not make any sense given what the Framers knew about the international arena, the law of nations, and how nations through their municipal laws made their citizens or subjects. They simply would not have allowed a President and Commander of the Military of the United States who, while being a U.S. citizen, was also natural-born subject of the King of England. How can you explain away the fact that the Framers simply would not have allowed such a scenario?

The same concern regarding children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents applied to children born in the United States to alien parents. If those children were made U.S. citizens by jus soli, they also would have been citizens or subjects of their parents’ nation. Hence, those children, too, would have been born owing allegiance to two different nations which was destructive of allegiance to only one nation.

The only conclusion to be drawn from this reality is that the Framers defined a natural born citizen as a child born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This was the child who was born with unity of citizenship and allegiance in the United States. It was only this child who was born without the possibility of foreign nations making claims to his or her allegiance through either jus soli or jus sanguinis. This was the only child that was born with sole allegiance to the United States. This was the child that the Framers saw becoming future Presidents and Commanders.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"He points out that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) (not Wong Kim Ark which is what you said), first quoted the Naturalization Act of 1790 and then said: 'These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since.'"

And don't forget the other United States Supreme Court case you cited that said much the same thing:

"1. The very first Congress, at its Second Session, proceeded to implement its power, under the Constitution's Art. I, § 8, cl. 4, to 'establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization' by producing the Act of March 26, 1790, 1 Stat. 103. That statute, among other things, stated, 'And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States . . . ." [ellipsis in Court Opinion]
"2. A like provision, with only minor changes in phrasing and with the same emphasis on paternal residence, was continuously in effect through three succeeding naturalization Acts." [Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815 (1971), at 823]

How could a change from considering such children natural born citizens to considering them citizens from birth be only a minor change in wording? There's really only one way. "Natural born citizen" must mean citizen from birth.

-Bryan

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson,

I of II

The issue is why would early Congress in its Naturalization Acts of 1790 and 1795 go from “shall be considered as natural born citizens” to “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” You conclude that Congress in the acts following the 1790 Act provided that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were “citizens of the United States” at birth, and therefore the two phrases mean the same thing. Your argument has no merit.

First, the threshold problem that you have is that Congress cannot by statute change the meaning of words stated in the Constitution. Minor itself told us how the Framers defined a natural born citizen. Congress cannot then change that meaning with a statute. The Constitution states that it can be changed only by duly ratified constitutional amendment.

Second, the Constitution gives to Congress in citizenship matters only the power to make uniform the laws of naturalization. That power does not include the power to make anyone a natural born citizen through a naturalization statute.

Third, your argument begs the question. You assume that all born citizens are natural born citizens. You have not provided historical and legal evidence that the Constitution so provides.

Fourth, Congress would not have taken its precious time and expended its limited resources to repeal the 1790 and make that specific change unless it meant to convey that the two phrases did not mean the same and that “citizens of the United States” at birth under the 1795 act were, indeed, not “natural born citizens.”

Fifth, you focus on what Minor and Bellei said about the acts rather than on what the text of the acts says. The Courts did not have some cache of secret knowledge that they used to interpret the acts. The Courts simply read them just like you and I can do and the rest of those who are interested in the matter. The text of the statutes speak for themselves.

Sixth, what Minor said about the acts, which was only a few words, to the degree that it can be interpreted to mean what Congress intended by the change in language, was said by it in passing and is dicta. Virginia Minor was born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents. The Court explained that, under the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution she was not only a citizen like her parents, but also a native or natural born citizen. There was no need for the Court to explore the fine details of a naturalization act that applied to persons born out of the United States. In fact, the Court did not engage in any such analysis. The case did not present facts which required the Court to explore what the intent of Congress was for making the change from natural born citizen to citizen of the United States.

Seventh, what Minor said regarding no substantive changes in the acts does not go to the issue of the change from natural born citizen to citizen of the United States. Rather, given that the Court was set out to discover if women were as much citizens as men, if anything, the Court was interested in looking at those naturalization acts for the sole purpose of determining if they said that naturalization was available only to men and not also to women. So the no-change-in-substance comment was only to signify that Congress since 1790, despite all the changes it made to its naturalization acts, always treated women as citizens. The same can be said about Bellei’s “minor changes” comment which was said within the context of only having to determine whether Bellei was a “citizen of the United States.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Eighth, when Minor said that the acts had not materially changed in substance, what it was saying is that our naturalization laws had not really changed in a fundamental way from one act to the next. Under the acts, children born in the United States to alien parents were still aliens in need of naturalization after birth. Children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were still citizens at birth, except for what the 1802 act did in considering them aliens which the 1855 Act amended to citizens at birth again. And children born out of the United States to alien parents where still alien born and in need of naturalization after birth. So, given that Congress had not changed the fundamental rules throughout those years, the Court felt comfortable saying in a very brief way that whatever changes Congress made through those years were only “minor changes.”

Ninth, a reading of all the Acts shows that they did in fact change in some significant details. A word for word analysis and comparison between each act shows that. Rather, what did not change are the fundamental citizenship and naturalization principles underlying the acts. After all, why would Congress set out to repeal acts and pass new ones with new information stated in them if all that it did really was in substance all the same or just minor changes? It is absurd to believe that the acts did not include some real substantive changes or included only “minor changes.” Hence, it is unreasonable to read Minor and Bellei as saying that the acts did not really change in some material ways.

Eight, Minor was decided in 1875 and Bellei in 1971. Hence, the Bellei Court could have easily read the Minor decision and basically repeated what Minor had said about the acts which I have demonstrated is not what you say it means.

THIRD REQUEST: P.S. I am still waiting for you to answer my simple question with a yes or no:

Is this a definition of a natural born citizen: The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson,

FOURTH REQUEST: P.S. I am still waiting for you to answer my simple question with a yes or no:

Is this a definition of a natural born citizen: The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens?

ajtelles said...

Which Common Law?

>> "FOURTH REQUEST: P.S. I am still waiting for you to answer my simple question with a yes or no:

>> "Is this a definition of a natural born citizen:
The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens?
July 7, 2014 at 9:28 PM

Mario, your simple common sense question to Unknown, aka Bryan, which he has not been able to answer, which is similar in original intent to my John Jay implication questions in a different post, MUST be pursued until it is answered. If Bryan refuses to answer it, it MUST be asked of others who try to use the words of the Minor v Happersett court and the U.S. v Wong Kim Ark court about English common law intrepreting the U.S. constitution against the American comon law original intent of the Founders such as John Jay intrepreting the Constitution. Your question, which is grounded in the original intent and the original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" authored by John Jay is a natural bridge question from the 1898 U.S. v Wong Kim Ark court back to 1787 because their comments, decisions AND dicta, are a tacit acknowledgement that the 1787 original intent of John Jay in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" was their guiding light, still shining from 1787 to 1898, 111 years.

Unknown, aka Bryan, because he knows that if his answer is yes OR no, he loses the debate about English common law determining the original intent that intreprets the U.S. Constitution, and he knows that you win the debate about American common law determining original intent.

This was his original U.S. v WKA quote and his comment.

>> "There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct
from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law,
and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes."

>> "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law.
The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions
are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history.

>> -- United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 654 (1898), quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 478.

>>Thus we see that Dr. Conspiracy was correct
to default to English common law to interpret the language of the Constitution.
According the U.S. Supreme Court, your "American national common law" does not exist.

July 6, 2014 at 8:57 AM

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

A Period and a Dash.
or
Rush Limbaugh Mentions Original Intent—FINALLY.


In a transcript of over 14,300 words, Rush Limbaugh talked about a period and a dash in the Declaration of Independence.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Liberal Scholar Claims a Period was Added to the Declaration of Independence

July 07, 2014

See the entire transcript here -
>> http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2014/07/07/liberal_scholar_claims_a_period_was_added_to_the_declaration_of_independence

""So I'm gonna read this to you again exactly as it was written and intended to be heard and read.
And something you know. You've read it yourself. You've heard it I don't know how many times.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident,
that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,
that among these are
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Period, dash.
"That to secure these rights,
Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed,"

"Well,
how in the world,
whether you're talking about a nonexistent period, a phantom period,
how in the world can you say
that the original intent of the paragraph without a period
is meant to connote a big government
when the last phrase of the sentence is
"deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"?

"Right there the role of government is subordinated to the people. But it doesn't matter to this scholar. It doesn't matter to this feminist who is attempting to claim that the original Founding Father Declaration of Independence was designed to establish a big government in order to secure and provide those rights.

[...]

"They knew these rights are massive: life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, never been spelled out before, they knew a big and compassionate and powerful government was necessary to provide and secure those rights. I just want to warn you. So we've gotta deal with this.

"But in doing it we win the argument.
"In dealing with it we end the argument,
except it's not about winning or losing the argument to the left.

"It is about creating a mind-set,
creating some doubt,
and to continue their illusion,
their effort to convince as many people as possible that a big government is necessary,
it was desired,
it was part of what the Founding Fathers originally intentioned,
and therefore we should not object to anything that's happening in America now
because it's exactly what the Founders intended.

Ladies and gentlemen, they tried this.
I don't expect too many of you will remember this.
They tried this with the Second Amendment a long, long time ago.

They tried monkeying around with punctuation and pauses in the Second Amendment
to try to change the meaning of "a well-regulated militia," comma.
"That's a sentence fragment,
nobody knows what that means."

They tried, the left did, to persuade as many people as possible the Second Amendment didn't say what it says.

The Supreme Court came and said, "Yes, it does. It does say that."
But they tried.

ajtelles said...

A Period and a Dash.
or
Rush Limbaugh Mentions Original Intent—FINALLY.


2/

Now, I'll tell you something else.

This assertion here that there should not be a period
and that that changes dramatically the whole sentence,
the whole paragraph.

It's completely incorrect grammatically without a period.
If you don't have a period in this paragraph
it is completely ungrammatical
and there is nothing else in the Declaration of Independence that is ungrammatical.
Nothing.
They were painstaking about that.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

In that one monologue on July 7, 2014, Limbaugh talked longer about the original intent of a few of the original words of the Declaration, " '... among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.' Period, dash. ", and the significance of a period and a dash, than he has talked about the original intent of the original words "natural born Citizen" and "...or a Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 in the U.S. Constitution.

He talked longer in one monologue in one day about a period and a dash than he has talked about Article II eligibility since November 2008, when BHObama was selected as the Democratic Party presidential candidate, until today, July 7, 2014.The implicit unity of citizenship and allegiance and the original intent of the Article II original words "natural born Citizen" has never been discussed by Limbaugh in the context of the Obama birth narrative that ONLY "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" was sufficient to be eligible to be president, and it was the original intent and original genesis meaning of John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen." Limbaugh has ignored the Obama birth narrative about presidential eligibility and the opposing original birther view, the original Framers view that, according to the 1700s common law about the unity of citizenship and allegiance, John Jay was implicitly referring ONLY to birth in the U.S. to two U.S. citizen parents. However, the original intent significance of a period and a dash, THAT is important enough to use more than 14,000 words to rebut and debunk the leftist effort to reinterpret the Declaration and by extrapolation the U.S. Constitution.

The previous paragraph is not a negative against Limbaugh, it is simply the reality from 2008 to today, July 7, 2014 which leads to this observation of Limbaugh's common sense analysis of the significance of a period and a dash. Limbaugh's common sense analysis of the original intent of the original words, " '... among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.' Period, dash. ", and the significance of the period and the dash works in clarifying the common sense original intent of the original words. THAT common sense as expressed by Limbaugh is what I see in John Jay. I refer to John Jay as my new best friend because his common sense is implicit in his underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" on July 25, 1787 in his note to George Washington.

ajtelles said...

A Period and a Dash.
or
Rush Limbaugh Mentions Original Intent—FINALLY.


3/

What was John Jay implying, Rush might ask if he took the time to analyze Article II Section 1 Clause 5 and why John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen?"

Here are two examples to help clarify for Rush and "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is good 'nuf-birthers about which birth narrative John Jay was implying in 1787. There are no trick questions, and ONLY one (1) right answer, NOT two (2).

2008 Senator Obama born in the U.S. birth narrative questions -

1- Was Jay implying birth in the U.S. to ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents?
2- Was Jay implying birth in the U.S. to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent?
3- Was Jay implying birth in the U.S. to ALSO two (2) U. S. Citizen parents?
4- Was Jay implying birth in the U.S. to ALSO one (1) U.S. citizen parent?

If birth in the U.S. and ALSO two (2) U.S. citizen parents is chosen, the birth in the U.S. and ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents position wins the debate.

If birth in the U.S. and ALSO one (1) U.S. citizen parents is chosen, the birth in the U.S. and ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents position wins the debate.

2014 Senator Cruz born outside the U.S. birth narrative questions -

1- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents?
2- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent?
3- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ALSO two (2) U. S. Citizen parents?
4- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ALSO one (1) U.S. citizen parent?

If anybody says that John Jay was implying that birth inside the U.S. AND outside the U.S. was his original intent, either John Jay was confused or the "-one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is good 'nuf-birther is confused.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Maybe somebody can encourage Rush Limbaugh to analyze the original intent of "natural born Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 before another "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is good 'nuf-birther tries to reinterpret Article II for their Democratic Party "MY GUY" or for their Republican Party "MY GUY" waiting in the wings.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

The Declaration is clear, govt is limited to whatever power the governed give it. There are so many criminals in power that we really have to clean house now but the elections are a joke and so are judges like jeff masin who screwed mario and the rest of us for that matter. The fed govt should be reduced by 40% and this country will be far better off. I would start with the cia, dhs, epa, energy, education and irs. Politicians have been notoriously corrupt throughout world history and the less influence they have the better

Unknown said...

I think the son of a british colonial subject would be born in the allegiance of the King. I wonder what the Founders wouldve thought of a son of a british colonial citizen being a US president even though article 2 has not changed at all since 1787. It is bad enough obama is a lying, sleazy, murderous sob but it would be easier to tolerate if he was a eligible lying, sleazy, murderous, crack addled imbecilic sob. Thankfully for the fraud our msm is controlled and much of the public is brain dead or indifferent...just keep drugs and beer flowing

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I guess you also maintain that James Madison, the Father of the Constitution and anonymously writing as Publius in The Federalist Papers, was off his rocker when [...]
"I guess you also maintain that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) was off its rocker when [...]"

You guess wrong; those are not who I maintain to be off their rockers. To show that US-born children of aliens were not considered citizens before the 14'th Amendment, you need cases where a US-born child was found not to be a citizen. McClure is no such thing. Minor is no such thing.

According to the United States Supreme Court:
"That all children born within the dominion of the United States of foreign parents holding no diplomatic office became citizens at the time of their birth does not appear to have been contested or doubted until more than fifty years after the adoption of the Constitution, when the matter was elaborately argued in the Court of Chancery of New York and decided upon full consideration by Vice Chancellor Sandford in favor of their citizenship. Lynch v. Clark, (1844) 1 Sandf.Ch. 583." [United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, at 664]


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"As to why minors’ naturalization records do not exist, as I explained before, no such naturalization records exists because minors born in the U.S. to alien parents did not need to do anything to show they were citizens if ever challenged as such other than present their birth certificates and their parents naturalization papers"

You seem to have forgotten what you conceded. The number of US-born children with naturalization records is, by your own admission, zero. The above might be a plausible explanation for why the number is not many millions. You don't have a single instance.

Also, back then many, probably most people did not have birth certificates. President Regan got one in his thirties; Eisenhower in his sixties.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Alien children who did not become naturalized and reached the age of majority did not see any need to naturalize."

How did you determine that *no* such person saw the need to naturalize? Seems awfully far-fetched, so let's see what you have.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryon Gene Olson,

I of III

-1. Your wrote: “To show that US-born children of aliens were not considered citizens before the 14'th Amendment, you need cases where a US-born child was found not to be a citizen. McClure is no such thing. Minor is no such thing.”

First, we do not interpret the Constitution only by case law. We also look to contemporaneous evidence from the Founding period which informs on what the Framers were thinking and how they eventually decided some constitutional issue. I have provided much evidence to support my position and you have provided none. For example, see John Locke, Samuel von Pufendorf, Emer de Vattel, Jacques Burlamaqui, Joh Jay, James Madison, David Ramsay, St. George Tucker, James Wilson, Nathan Dane, Chief Justice John Marshall, Rep. Langdon Cheves, and the early Congress, all discussed on this blog (the list is not exhaustive).

Second, you are simply wrong about what McClure and Minor mean. Those are cases which prove that a child born in the United States to alien parents was not a citizen unless naturalized after birth by an Act of Congress or treaty. Your proclaiming that they are not does not erase what those cases say. You can also add to the list Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830) (adopting the jus sanguinis rule of citizens or partum sequitur patrem (children follow the condition of their parents), the U.S. Supreme Court explained that the English common law no longer applied in the new America to decide national character and held that a child born in New York after July 4, 1776 when it was American territory and under American jurisdiction to British parents was an English natural born subject and not a citizen of the United States); and The Slaughterhouse Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1872) (the Court, not having to state that children born in the United States to citizens parents were both “citizens of the United States” and “natural born citizens,” said only 5 years after the amendment was ratified, again adopting the jus sanguinis rule, that the Fourteenth Amendment and the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction” were intended to include as “citizens of the United States” freed slaves born in the United States and to “exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States.”).

-2. You quoted Wong Kim Ark thus:

"That all children born within the dominion of the United States of foreign parents holding no diplomatic office became citizens at the time of their birth does not appear to have been contested or doubted until more than fifty years after the adoption of the Constitution, when the matter was elaborately argued in the Court of Chancery of New York and decided upon full consideration by Vice Chancellor Sandford in favor of their citizenship. Lynch v. Clark, (1844) 1 Sandf.Ch. 583."

United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, at 664.

Justice Gray is wrong. See the James McClure citizenship case of 1811. The McClure case interpreted the Naturalization Act of 1802. That case, decided by the James Madison Administration, yes I said James Madison, more than clearly proves that Justice Gray was wrong. “Publius” (probably James Madison who was President then) on October 7, 1811, commenting and applying the Naturalization Act of 1802 (which was the same as the Naturalization Act of 1790 and 1795 in the particular at issue) in The Alexandria Herald, concerning the “Case of James McClure,” stated:

“Mr. Rodman hints, that it would have been sufficient for James McClure to have been born in the United States—he is mistaken. The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. The law of Virginia, of 1792, does—for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen, but the U. States’ act does not go so far. A man must be naturalized to make his children such.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

We can see that the matter of who were citizens of the United States was a federal issue and not a state issue. Indeed, someone may have been a citizen of Virginia under Virginia law, but that did not make him or her a citizen of the United States under national law. National citizenship was a matter to be decided by national law, not state law. The national law came in the form of either national common law (not to be conflated or confounded with English or state common law), which applied to defining a natural born citizen, or Acts of Congress or treaties which defined all the other citizens of the United States who were not natural born citizens. The national common law which defined a natural born citizen was developed from general principles which had their origins in natural law and the law of nations. All of Congress’s naturalization acts, starting with the 1790 Act, reflected that national common law definition of a natural born citizen, acting with those Acts upon all children except those born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents who were the natural born citizens. Finally, the Fourteenth Amendment itself proves that national citizenship is a function of national law and not the constitution or laws of any one or several states. (The amendment says subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, not of any one state, and creates national citizenship which is then used to create state citizenship.).

Publius, in 1811, living when the acts were passed by Congress, and the James Madison Administration would know what the First, Third, and Seventh Congresses intended when they passed the early naturalization acts. In that connection, Publius tells us that it did not matter where a child was born. Regardless of where the child was born, if the child’s parents were aliens, the child was alien born. Regardless of where the child was born, the child’s parents had to naturalize in order to make their minor children citizens or the child upon reaching the age of majority had to naturalize on his or her own. The historical record tells us that Secretary of State, James Monroe, who was serving the James Madison Administration, eventually declared McClure alien born, but a “Citizen of the United States” (not a “natural born citizen”), not because he was born in South Carolina on April 21, 1785, but because a few months after he was born, his British father naturalized as a “citizen of the United States.” I will take Publius’ and the James Madison’s Administration’s word in 1811 on what the acts meant, who was a “natural born citizen,” and on the general state of our national citizenship rather than Obots’ today. See also Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830); and Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830). For quotes from these cases, see my article to this thread above.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

-3. You said: “You seem to have forgotten what you conceded. The number of US-born children with naturalization records is, by your own admission, zero. The above might be a plausible explanation for why the number is not many millions. You don't have a single instance.”

I stand on my explanation why there are no further existing naturalization records other than what I said existed of children born in the U.S. to alien parents (also for alien wives who become U.S. citizens by marriage to U.S. citizens). If your statistical analysis is any real basis for establishing the truth of the matter, all the courts that I have cited and quoted would all be wrong. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) said that “there have been doubts” whether children born in the United States to alien parents were citizens. For sure, if those naturalization records had the weight of evidence that you ascribe to them, the Court would have thought about those records and concluded like you do that their nonexistence meant those children were citizens. But it did no such thing. Additionally, if those missing records meant so much, Wong would have made in the lower court and in the U.S. Supreme Court the same argument that you are making here to show that such children had always been considered a citizen in the United States. No such argument was made. Again, all this shows that such missing naturalization records, over and above what I said existed, do not mean anything and surely not what you think they mean.

So, Mr. Olson, you still have not demonstrated that I have erred in some way in my position that the historical and legal evidence shows that a natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875).

FIFTH REQUEST: P.S. I am still waiting for you to answer my simple question with a yes or no:

Is this a definition of a natural born citizen: The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens?

ajtelles said...

does he or doesn't he...

Mario, Unknown/Bryan knows or doesn't know the answer to your question.

If Bryan knows the original intent definition of a natural born citizen as John Jay meant it in 1787, he knows that he has lost the debate and Dr. Conspiracy is wrong about 1700s English common law interpreting the 1700s U.S. Constitution.

If Bryan does not know the original intent definition of a natural born citizen as John Jay meant it, he's either not bright or not honest.

So, assuming that Bryan does know the original intent of John Jay, if he answers yes OR no, he loses the debate.

He can't be that dumb, other than being a defender of the Obama birth narrative that only "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" was Jays original intent and the English common law was the foundation of Jay's original intent.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Bryan wrote: How could a change from considering such children natural born citizens to considering them citizens from birth be only a minor change in wording? There's really only one way. "Natural born citizen" must mean citizen from birth."

Hey Bryan, what are you smoking? "citizens from birth"??? What pipe-dream did that come from?
Why or how could your mind possibly tell you that "citizens of the United States" implies native-birth?
Gee, I always thought that naturalized citizens were also citizens of the U.S. I must be wrong 'cause Bryan redefines those words to only mean born citizens. I don't know how in the world he manages to do that... -must be magical thinking.

Meanwhile, Mario is asserting that the truth is found in his doctrinal box when it is actually found in the view of neither of them.

Mario erroneously believes that the 1795 act changed the status of foreign-born Americans when in reality it changed nothing.
It only changed its mandate as to what they must be recognized as.

The 1790 Act ordered that they be recognized as being citizens eligible for the presidency, while the '95 act ordered they be recognized as citizens (as apposed to aliens).
Neither altered the reality of what they were by birth because Congress possessed no authority over the naturalization of any persons except foreigners and children of foreigners, not children of Americans.

American citizens retained all rights regarding their children and did not cede anything to government.

The flesh of their flesh were born as Americans and did not need permission to be that which they naturally were. But they needed to be recognized as that which they were because ignorant government officers might not recognize American citizenship reality and instead view them through the eyes of rejected British law.

Anonymous said...

Bryan wrote: "The number of US-born children with naturalization records is, by your own admission, zero. The above might be a plausible explanation for why the number is not many millions. You don't have a single instance."

The common law continued on after the war of independence began, with the native-born deemed to be new State citizens as long as the parents were not traitors to the revolution.
The native-born had what was erroneously labeled a "birthright", actually a legal right of membership in the country (colony) of their birth. They were not born as foreigners and thus had no need of naturalization although alien-born.
Only foreign men who took the naturalization oath had a record of taking the naturalization oath, so talk of any other naturalization records is purely asinine.

And what did native-birth bestow? State citizenship. Via it, national membership was obtained across all other States, but the federal government was not a State and did not have to recognize any and every State citizen as being also a citizen of the new nation.

It had its own internationally-oriented policy and it did not recognized dual nationality and dual allegiance.
That meant that the alien-born were not citizens of the federal entity known as "The United States of America" even though they were State citizens and thus citizens of the union of State republics.

They were 13 separate countries bound together by a central federal hub with its own nationality policy, -but no nationality Law, unlike the States which had their policy as part of their constitutions. The U.S.A. didn't.

He added "Also, back then many, probably most people did not have birth certificates. President Regan got one in his thirties; Eisenhower in his sixties."

EVERYONE had a birth certificate but with rare exceptions, including those two men. I have my grandparents' birth certificates from the turn of the last century.

The naturalization acts speak of the oath being given in any "Court of Record". What those courts were for included registering births and deaths.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"FIFTH REQUEST: P.S. I am still waiting for you to answer my simple question with a yes or no:
Is this a definition of a natural born citizen: The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens?"

I have once again granted your request. You can find it in your eponymous thread at the Fogbow.

Perhaps you could go back and answer some of my questions. For example, why did you think /The New Englander/ was a law review?

-Bryan

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: ""McClure and Minor...prove that a child born in the United States to alien parents was not a citizen unless naturalized after birth by an Act of Congress or treaty."

Again with the absence of any context for the word "citizen". You continue to fail to acknowledge that there was not just one single citizenship but two.
States remained sovereign over all persons within their borders, especially those born within them, whom they deemed to be new citizens regardless of their immigrant father not yet having had time or opportunity to complete his naturalization.

When will that fact sink into your thinking and stay there?
The federal government was a whole different world. Who the Departments of Justice & State deemed to be citizens of the nation was up to them and not up to the States, and they adopted a policy that rejected dual citizenship as repugnant to American sovereignty.

Two citizenships. Discussion is just a miasma of ambiguity when both sides continually fail to distinguish which it is that they are speaking of.
And that explains the talking past each other that has gone on for over 150 years.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

You really are dishonest. You have the nerve to tell me that I do not know that there was a difference between state citizenship and national citizenship, that people have been confused about it for 150 years, and that you are the person who recently discovered it. I have been saying that on this blog for years and that is where you learned it. Now you want to tell me about it. You really do need an all-points check-up with a competent authority.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryon Gene Olson,

You asked:

“Perhaps you could go back and answer some of my questions. For example, why did you think /The New Englander/ was a law review?”

Because the article I quoted reads and looks exactly like law review.

Please don't ask me about the price of bread on Thursday because I do not know the answer.

Anonymous said...

Publius wrote regarding the McClure case: The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. The law of Virginia, of 1792, does, —for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” are deemed a citizen.
The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil.
An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen, but the U. States’ act does not go so far. A man must be naturalized to make his children such.”

While I suspect that a sitting President of the United States would not write such a thing under a pen name since he would not feel any need to hide his identity as would perhaps John Jay who would not want to end up being murdered over a political opinion as happened to David Ramsay.

But after noting his reference to "the act" I had to reevaluate my previous assumption which was based not on the Nat. Acts but on policy alone.
After further consideration, it occurs to me that the view expressed by Publius, and promoted by Mario and Wilted Rose, has to be taken as accurate, and my suspicion that the native-born children of aliens were simply ignored by the acts can be seen to have a serious flaw.

The direct statement by Publius, along with the fact that the age of majority mentioned in the acts was not 18 but was 21, strongly suggests that the thinking of the authors of the acts in using the qualifier of only children of foreigners "dwelling within the United States", had in mind the very real possibility of very homesick teenage sons returning to their European homeland. I've seen that very up-close and personal in the case of my own adopted sister who was not an orphan but whose third-world mother was extremely poor. Adopted at age ten, as would be similar to many sons brought to America with their emigrating parents, the desire to return to their homeland might have been very strong for some if they had no love for their parents and few or no siblings or American friends.

So the acts was meant to bar American national citizenship from children who never left Europe and those who returned since they had chosen to not become Americans.

That understanding confirms Mario's assertion that the absence of any mention of native-born children was not due to some universal assumption that they were born as citizens since even though they were born as State citizens, the federal government was under no constitutional nor Congressional mandate to recognize the alien-born as American Nationals in the context of international relationships.

If a son of an immigrant traveled to Europe, it did not matter whether or not he was born in Europe or born in one of the States, he was viewed by the State Department as a foreigner because he was the son of a foreigner and inherited his father's nationality. Until the father became an American, his children remained foreigners.

But that distinction between State law and national law does not help solve the NBC debate because the eligibility clause does not require that one be a natural born citizen of the United States but merely a natural born citizen, period.
That language referred to a person's State membership, whether or not they were born of State citizens or born of aliens.

The debate needs to shift from what the definition of a national natural born citizen was to the definition of the States regarding their native-born citizens. Did the distinguish between them based on parentage or not? Did "natural" mean nothing at the State level?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

Congratulations to you on your having gained a better understanding of the early naturalization acts by taking the time to study the James McClure citizenship case of 1811 and its resolution by the James Madison Administration. As you can see from Publius, those acts acted not only upon children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents and alien parents, but also on those born in the United States to alien parents. The only children they did not act upon were children born in the United States to citizens parents, for these were the natural born citizens who did not need Congress’s naturalization grace.

Now you have to make another correction. You said:

“But that distinction between State law and national law does not help solve the NBC debate because the eligibility clause does not require that one be a natural born citizen of the United States but merely a natural born citizen, period. That language referred to a person's State membership, whether or not they were born of State citizens or born of aliens.”

Your statement is not correct. You cannot expect that after Congress entered the citizenship field by passing naturalization laws that national laws (Acts of Congress and treaties and not state law) defined citizens of the United States at birth and after birth, but national law had not already defined a natural born citizen. A natural born citizen, being the citizenship standard for the President, had to be uniform and certain throughout the land, not only at the time the Constitution was passed and ratified, but also going into the future. The definition of a natural born citizen applied to all the states and so the Framers would have needed a uniform definition that equally applied to all the states. Only a federal law could have provided that uniformity and certainty. That national law had its genesis in natural law and the law of nations whose citizenship principles were extracted and adopted into national common law, which is that common law of which Minor v. Happersett (1875) spoke. And that national common law defined a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...


Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryon Gene Olson finally answered my question. Here is my question and here is his answer:

My question: Is this a definition of a natural born citizen: The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens?

His answer: “I now grant Mr. Apuzzo's repeated request: Yes, it's a definition. I think it's a translation of Vattel's definition of Naturels or Indigènes. I've always thought trying to apply it here in the U.S. was silly, as for many years we didn't even grant citizenship to our indigenous natives.”

So, Mr. Olson concedes that the statement is a translation of Vattel’s definition of Naturels or Indigenes which the translator translated to natural born citizen. He adds, however, that that definition of a natural born citizen does not apply in the United States, for as he says we did not even use it to grant citizenship to American Indians.

For now I will just say that Mr. Olson’s comment about the American Indians has no merit given that the Founders did not see the American Indians as part of the people who formed the nation which would have made them original citizens and Congress did not pass an Act naturalizing them until it passed the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 which went into effect on June 2, 1924. If American Indians were not citizens and could not be naturalized, how does Mr. Olson expect Vattel’s definition of a natural born citizen to ever make them citizens? It was only after they became citizens in 1924 that they could then go on to procreated natural born citizen children and join the natural born citizens of the United States.

Mr. Olson’s comment that the American Indians, not being recognized as citizens until just recently, does not prove that Vattel' definition did not apply in the United States. Moreover, Mr. Olson denies the ton of historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that Vattel's definition of a natural born citizen did, in fact, apply in the United States. For example, see Minor v. Happersett (1875) whose definition of a natural born citizen is a paraphrase of Vattel's definition of the clause.

So, Mr. Olson answer proves nothing just like all his comments here. If you read Mr. Olson’s comments and that of his coterie at Foggybrain, one would think that he is some big winner here. LOL

ajtelles said...

John Jay says it's about time.

So, Adrien, aka h20oflife, aka h20 admits to a clarifying insight and then heads off into the weeds of "merely" nbC confusion.

Mario wrote to Adrien -

"The only children they did not act upon were children born in the United States to citizens parents, for these were the natural born citizens who did not need Congress’s naturalization grace.

Adrien wrote in response on July 8, 2014 at 1:40 PM -

"So the acts was meant to bar American national citizenship from children who never left Europe and those who returned since they had chosen to not become Americans.

"That understanding confirms Mario's assertion t... .

[...]

"But that distinction between State law and national law does not help solve the NBC debate because the eligibility clause does not require that one be a natural born citizen of the United States but merely a natural born citizen, period.

That language referred to a person's State membership, whether or not they were born of State citizens or born of aliens.

Here is when Adrien wanders into the weeds of nbC confusion,

"But that distinction
between State law and national law
does not help solve the NBC debate
because the eligibility clause
does not require that one be a natural born citizen of the United States
but merely a natural born citizen, period.


Adrien, John Jay, the author of the words "natural born Citizen" wants you as a new best friend, so why don't you check with the author and think about what HE was implying on July 25, 1787, and you will see that he had ONLY one original intent on his mind.

Jay was NOT implying "... merely a natural born citizen, period."]

Adrien, as with Kevin, aka S... and Bryan, aka Unknown, you have never replied to the simple question about what you think John Jay was implying, and why John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with ONLY one meaning, NOT two. Oh, you've responded, but you were so far into the weeds, that simple point-counterpoint was not possible.

So, here we go again.

Here are simple questions to help clarify for "... merely a natural born citizen, period" is good 'nuf-birthers about which birth narrative John Jay was implying in 1787. There are no trick questions, and ONLY one (1) right answer, NOT two (2).

1- Was Jay implying birth in the U.S. to ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents?
2- Was Jay implying birth in the U.S. to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent?
3- Was Jay implying birth in the U.S. to ALSO two (2) U. S. Citizen parents?
4- Was Jay implying birth in the U.S. to ALSO one (1) U.S. citizen parent?

If birth in the U.S. and ALSO two (2) U.S. citizen parents is chosen, the birth in the U.S. and ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents position wins the "merely" debate.

If birth in the U.S. and ALSO one (1) U.S. citizen parents is chosen, the birth in the U.S. and ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents position wins the "merely" debate.

1- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents?
2- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent?
3- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ALSO two (2) U. S. Citizen parents?
4- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ALSO one (1) U.S. citizen parent?

If anybody says that John Jay was implying that birth inside the U.S. AND outside the U.S. was his original intent, either John Jay was confused or the "... merely a natural born citizen, period" is good 'nuf-birther is confused.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

There's a huge self-contradiction in Mario’s theory of nationality.
It starts with his accurate insight into the effect of the naturalization acts in limiting U.S. citizenship in regard to the children of naturalized foreigners.
The acts state that citizenship is only extended to those “dwelling within the United States”. That means that all native-born persons born of aliens are aliens also regardless of being considered citizens of the State in which they were born per State constitutions or statutes.

That is crucial to Presidential eligibility since it shows that since the national government did not consider them to even be citizens, they could not possibly have been considered to be natural born citizens as the Constitution requires for the presidency.

That nails that issue and renders Obama an alien according to the founding generation of national leaders, -leaders who, in the first Congress, included founding fathers and framers of the Constitution itself, -leaders who wrote the Bill of Rights constitutional amendment.

But they also wrote something that is in direct opposition to Mario’s doctrine, and that is that the American children born abroad are to be considered natural born citizens, -just like their brethren back home, and thus equally eligible to one day run for the office of President.

But what has gone unrecognized is the fact that those two facts are directly related and are as inseparable as two sides of a coin.

Here’s why; the principle by which the native-born children of immigrants were deemed to be aliens just like their father was the principle of natural membership, i.e., jus sanguinis; membership by right of blood. They were aliens and not Americans regardless of birth within America because the national government did not honor jus soli citizenship.

Instead the founders and framers abandoned that imperial doctrine of life-long subjection to the Crown in favor the law of nature.
“Each species reproduces after its own kind” whether in the natural realm or the political realm of nations. By it, no child could be something totally different from his father. To be deemed a citizen of a nation of which the father was not a part would have been a gross intervention of government into the unity of the family, splitting it into two different nationalities, as well as imparting a form of national bigamy to a child native-born in a strange land.

To which nation would he owe his loyalty at adulthood? That was an inescapable conundrum since nations perhaps universally rejected dual citizenship and dual sovereignty and dual allegiance as an insult to national sovereignty.

continued...

Anonymous said...

pt. 2
So the problem for Mario is that the doctrine that he applies to children of foreigners in America is the same doctrine that he fails to apply to children of Americans born abroad. By jus sanguinis and the principle of the American naturalization acts, they would not be recognized as members of the foreign nation where born just as children of that nation born in the U.S. would not be recognized as Americans.

Nationality would have been assigned in both nations by patrilineal descent, via the inherited political nature of the family’s father.
But what does Mario’s doctrine dictate? That they are aliens in need of naturalization to even be mere citizens without any right to ever seek the Presidency, -regardless of who their American father might have been, including future or former Presidents.

So he has the U.S. born children of foreigners defined by U.S. law as aliens, per jus sanguinis, but also has their counterpart (American children) born abroad also being defined as aliens!!! -per jus soli.

Any thinking mind will scratch their head and ask where the hell did jus sanguinis disappear to when it came to American children? It only applied to foreigners’ children? How can that be?

If those children were natural members of their father’s foreign homeland via inheritance of his nationality, then by the same logic, the children of Americans born abroad would be natural members of their father’s homeland, the United States, -and yet he declares them to be aliens and forever ineligible to be the U.S. President.

That is the exact opposite of how he judges American-born children of aliens.

If they were deemed to be Americans, then Mario could argue that American children born abroad were deemed to be subjects of the monarch of the nation in which they were born. But the founders, framers, and the first Congress rejected such a view, defining such American children as Americans and not foreigners, and natural born Americans at that (via jus sanguinis).

Such a self-contradictory position is a form of self-check-mate. It is the end of the line for his doctrine. It has self-imploded.

While children of immigrants are totally dependent on being born in America, American children of citizens are totally independent of place of birth. They carry the right of national membership with them everywhere they go on Earth, and it is inherited by their children.

That is their American right, and no doctrine can take it from them.

Unknown said...

An oldie but a goodie ...


" It had been previously decided in America that natives of Great Britain were aliens there, and incapable of inheriting lands in the United States. Kent defines an alien to be "a person born out of the jurisdiction of the United States;" but this definition is not sufficiently strict, for the son of an alien, which son is born in the United States, is also an alien."

Arts and Sciences: Or, Fourth Division of "The English Encyclopedia", Volume 1 (1866)
Pg 209 under heading "Alien"
http://books.google.com/books?id=d8NPAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA206&dq=citizen+alien+children+born&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pIC8U8jZEafK8wHl94C4Cg&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=citizen%20alien%20children%20born&f=false

Anonymous said...

Art, you have a neurotic fixation on place of birth. John Jay gave it no thought whatsoever. His only thought was parentage. American only? or Foreign? Pure jus soli common law citizens? or only pure jus sanguinis citizens?

I could ask you what part of jus sanguinis relates to birth place, and what animal species in world history was altered due to the location of birth or hatching?

Can you answer? The answer is none because birth place is 1,000% irrelevant to the law of nature.
It is that same law that determines which nation a baby naturally belongs to, -not the arbitrary, conquest-determined artificial borders of nations.

They do not exist in the Natural Law that the founders adopted as American national policy.

Your belief in birth place has nothing to do with the founders. But it is like a religion to you.

Study my previous response about Mario's doctrine being debunked by the naturalization acts, -if he dares to post it.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

You concluded: “That is their American right, and no doctrine can take it from them.”

This is where you fail to understand a fundamental aspect of citizenship. The United States does not have jurisdiction over children born in a foreign nation. Children born in foreign nations are subject to that nation’s jurisdiction. Those nations, by making or potentially making those children citizens by jus soli as does the United States, by definition takes away their natural born citizen status in the United States. Simply stated, one cannot be a natural born citizen of two nations. Such a notion is a contradiction in terms. Even Coke and Blackstone said that no man can be born having to serve two masters, although the English common law created just that. Hence, there is a doctrine that can take away that child’s natural born citizen status and that is the municipal laws of that foreign nation which the United States recognizes as creating foreign citizenship and allegiance. Our early Congress recognized this and that is why in the 1790 Act said that those children “shall be considered as natural born citizens” and in the 1795 Act and in all that followed said they “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” As we can see, the first Congress saw those foreign-born children as needing its naturalizing grace. Second, it saw them not as true natural born citizens but only naturalized citizens at birth who enjoyed all the privileges and immunities possessed by natural born citizens less the privilege of being President, and then later substituting citizen of the United States at birth for their status and concomitant privileges and immunities which were the same as before given that they never had the right to be President in the first place.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

You said if I dare to post your comment. Please share with us here what comment you ever placed on by blog which I did not post.

If you find any, I would like to know about it.

Slartibartfast made the same comment. The same goes for him.

Both of you have a challenge.

Now, Bryan Gene Olson is a different story. He is a propaganda groupie and an Obot water carrier and I already told him what types of comments I will not post of his. The reading public will be happy to know that the comments of Mr. Olson that do not get posted have nothing to do with his substantive arguments in this debate.

thalightguy said...

Mario said, “It was only after they [Native Americans] became citizens in 1924 that they could then go on to procreated natural born citizen children and join the natural born citizens of the United States.”

I have to disagree.

Native Americans, born citizens of Native American Tribes, are still considered to be born in a foreign Nation and are only made citizens of the United States at birth by the Nationality Act of 1940. See: Sect 201: “(b) A person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;”

Thus, Native Americans like Ted Cruz are citizens of the United States at birth but are not natural born citizens. For one to be a
Constitutional “natural born Citizen” one must be born with sole citizenship to the United States. (No foreign
allegiance/divided loyalties) This is only accomplished by being born in the U.S. to parents who are not subject to any foreign power.

ajtelles said...

Simple Questions for Simple Answers

Adrien/h2ooflife/h2o, on July 8, 2014 at 9:04 PM you did not answer a simple question, and instead you headed into the weeds of nbC confusion again as you have done before.

h2o, if your non-response is typical of the comments you posted over at Fogbow where you got more than 1,000 insulting non-responses, no wonder most of the responses were ad hominem, since that is the way you insult others who ask a simple original intent question.

Your "neurotic fixation" verbiage is non-responsive and not substantive, similar to Slart..., aka Kevin, aka Phd mathematician.

>> "Art, you have a neurotic fixation on place of birth.
John Jay gave it no thought whatsoever.
His only thought was parentage.
American only? or Foreign?
Pure jus soli common law citizens? or only pure jus sanguinis citizens?


h2o, I will answer every one of your impertinent questions that you asked after the above "... his only thought was parentage" non-response, but you must first answer the simple question about John Jay's original intent, since intelligent point-counterpoint requires a starting point, and the first starting point is my questions to you.

Nowj, don't forget your questions, since I'm not going to reply to them now, only after you answer first. In other words, you first, then me, then you, then me, then you, etc., and I promise to stay out of the nbC weeds if you promise to stay out of the nbC weeds too.

Study my previous responses about the original intent of John Jay in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" to help you stay on point.

So, here we go again, if you can stay focused and on point. Remember, I asked you first, so your first duty is a simple answer, then one simple question instead of a group of non-responsive questions.

Here are simple questions to help clarify for "... merely a natural born citizen, period" is good 'nuf-birthers about which birth narrative John Jay was implying in 1787. There are no trick questions, and ONLY one (1) right answer, NOT two (2).

Birth Inside the U.S

1- Was Jay implying birth inside the U.S. to ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents?
2- Was Jay implying birth inside the U.S. to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent?
3- Was Jay implying birth inside the U.S. to ALSO two (2) U. S. Citizen parents?
4- Was Jay implying birth inside the U.S. to ALSO one (1) U.S. citizen parent?

Birth Outside the U.S

1- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen parents?
2- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent?
3- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ALSO two (2) U. S. Citizen parents?
4- Was Jay implying birth outside the U.S. to ALSO one (1) U.S. citizen parent?

h2o, if your answer is that John Jay was implying that birth inside the U.S. AND outside the U.S. was his original intent, either John Jay was confused or you are confused.

Inside the U.S. or ...
Two U.S. citizen parents or...

h2o, if you can handle the truth about original intent and original genesis, just what was John Jay thinking?

What is the John Jay truth about "place of birth" that you say he "... gave it no thought whatsoever."

What is your source for your unique thought that Jay "gave it no thought" to place of birth?

Simple questions for simple answers. Right?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thalighthouse,

You raise an interesting point. Here is the statute with more context:

8 U.S.C. §1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(b) a person born in the United States to a member of an Indian, Eskimo, Aleutian, or other aboriginal tribe: Provided, That the granting of citizenship under this subsection shall not in any manner impair or otherwise affect the right of such person to tribal or other property;

~~~~~

Upon examination, we can see that being born subject to the jurisdiction is tied not only to place of birth, but also to parentage. That is the reason that in (b) Congress allowed by statute birth to those parents from those groups to be accepted for citizen of the United States at birth status. What Congress said by including members of those groups as parents is that normally, birth to parents belonging to those groups would cause one not to be born subject to the jurisdiction of the United States or at least raise a doubt about it. That is interesting given the Obot argument that, for those born in the United States, we are supposed to be a jus soli nation.

The other question that I raise with you, in light of your disagreement with what I wrote, is are such children really born subject to some foreign power? What is the foreign power of the parents of an Indian, etc. child born in the United States? Are Indians, Eskimos, Aleutians, or other aboriginal tribes foreign powers today (not historically)? If they are to some degree such foreign powers today, what is that foreign power and is that foreign power sufficient to cause their children born in the United States not to be natural born citizens? Finally, note that Congress only recognized the right of such person to continue to enjoy tribal or other property. There is no mention of that citizen continuing to enjoy some citizenship or allegiance in some foreign nation.

Anonymous said...

"Adrien Nash,

You said if I dare to post your comment. Please share with us here what comment you ever placed on by blog which I did not post."

Well I replied to your post and others that you have read and posted later by that lightguy and yourself have appear but not my reply. Why do you suppose that is?

Anonymous said...

Art, the box in which you think is a box that the founders were never in. The system of assigning nationality that grips your mind is one that did not even exist in their thinking.
They never married jus soli to jus sanguinis. No nation ever has. It's almost like if a nation had two contests; one for who is the strongest man and the other for who is the smartest man, and then your new idea comes along that what is required is for a man to fit not either of those two criterion but that one who must fit both; strongest *and* smartest. Such a contest never existed and would not ever exist.

The founders completely left behind the perverted system of the British, a system in which place of birth was viewed as preeminent. They moved far away from it to the realm of natural law, while you are still stuck in it.

Being stuck in that rotting corpse leaves your thinking confused by facts which to your mind appear as "weeds" since they do not compute inside your common law oriented thinking.
You look for an answer to a question that should not be asked because it has no connection to the mind-set that the founders lived in, which was membership by descent alone.
Membership by descent or inheritance is totally devoid of any thought of birth place, yet every thought of yours begin with birth place.
So how can you possibly begin to comprehend what they were thinking when you begin with a false assumption about what they were thinking?
When you ask the wrong question you will not get an accurate answer if any answer at all.
If one were to ask you to please answer three simple questions, what would your answer be if those questions were these: 1. have you stopped beating your wife daily? 2. Have you stopped beating your wife weekly?
3. Have you stopped beating your wife monthly?

That is equivalent to what you are asking.

As to what I think that John Jay thought, I have almost excessively written in depth on that subject in over a dozen lengthy expositions, many of which are almost centrally focused on it. Do no ask me to keep repeating what I have already thoroughly explained.
The problem is not that I have not already done so, but that you are unable to receive what I have written since to you indoctrinated mind it is all simply "weeds".

Unknown said...

ajtelles said...
What is your source for your unique thought that Jay "gave it no thought" to place of birth?


Thank you, that is my question as well.

If he gave no thought to place of birth, wouldn't he have said "natural citizen" instead of "natural born citizen"?

Anonymous said...

In regard to the identity of the author going by the pen name of Publius in the 1811 letter regarding native-birth and citizenship, we have these two factors from wikipedia:

Jay declined the Federalist renomination for governor in 1801 and retired to the life of a farmer in Westchester County, New York. Soon after his retirement, his wife died. Jay remained in good health, continued to farm and stayed out of politics.

The Jay Treaty (with Britain):the southern Democratic-Republicans denounced it. The failure to get compensation for many thousands of slaves liberated and resettled by the British during the Revolution "was a major reason for the bitter Southern opposition".

Jefferson and Madison, fearing a commercial alliance with aristocratic Britain might undercut republicanism, led the opposition.
Democratic-Republicans were incensed at what they perceived as a betrayal of American interests, and Jay was denounced by protesters with such graffiti as "Damn John Jay! Damn everyone who won't damn John Jay!! Damn everyone that won't put lights in his windows and sit up all night damning John Jay!!!"

Jay complained that he could travel from Boston to Philadelphia solely by the light of his burning effigies.

One newspaper editor wrote, "John Jay, ah! the arch traitor - seize him, drown him, burn him, flay him alive."
Such sentiment would certainly inspire a wish for anonymity when expressing a very controversial opinion, but after 10 years of retirement and living the life of a farmer, why would John Jay stick his nose into such an issue as citizenship and a current issue regarding it?
Madison as a sitting President would be far more interested in such a current controversy.

Also this: Jay wrote the second, third, fourth, fifth, and sixty-fourth articles. All except the sixty-fourth concerned the "[d]angers from [f]oreign [f]orce and [i]nfluence";...

I wonder what they contain relating to the presidency.

Anonymous said...

A note about the view of John Jay and foreign birth; Jay spent close to 40 months serving abroad in Spain, Paris, and London, accompanied by his younger wife. There is no reason so assume that she did not have a son or daughter or two or three during that long period of time.
How would they have perceived such children? As extensions of themselves, -as wholly and solely American? Or as Spanish, French, or English?
Would Jay have looked at his speculative foreign born sons and seen future foreigners? -a Frenchman or a Spaniard or an Englishman or only Americans?
If he had a son in New York and one abroad, would he have viewed the latter as non-American, less American, untrustworthy of the highest office of the land?

Or would his foreign delivery be an irrelevant factor and a non-existent memory for such a son?

Would he be "born with foreign allegiance"? or with a destiny to only be an American?

ajtelles said...

Place & Birth Citizenship in Simple Language

Mario, your wrote on July 9, 2014 at 2:05 AM in response to Thalighthouse,

>> "Upon examination,
we can see that being born subject to the jurisdiction
is tied not only to place of birth,
but also to parentage.


Dittos, "... tied to not only place of birth, but also to parentage."

>> "That is the reason that in (b)
Congress allowed by statute
birth to those parents
from those groups
to be accepted for citizen of the United States at birth status.


Your clear language looks the clear language in the following USCIS.gov pages listed below.

Maybe Adrien Nash, aka h2ooflife, can drink in and assimilate, to mix metaphors, the simple soil AND parent language from an official source, that tacitly supports John Jay's 1787 original intent and original genesis purpose for underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in the 1700s and which is still applicable today in the 2000s.

The same info can also be found on one page at my Original Birther Document blog.
>> http://originalbirtherdocument18.blogspot.com/

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

1952 Immigration and Nationality Act
[ http://www.uscis.gov/forms ]

“The Immigration and Nationality Act, or INA, was created in 1952.
“Before the INA, a variety of statutes governed immigration law but were not organized in one location.

"The McCarran-Walter bill of 1952, Public Law No. 82-414, collected and codified many existing provisions and reorganized the structure of immigration law.

"The Act has been amended many times over the years, but is still the basic body of immigration law.
“The INA is divided into titles, chapters, and sections.
“Although it stands alone as a body of law, the Act is also contained in the United States Code (U.S.C.).
“The code is a collection of all the laws of the United States.
It is arranged in fifty subject titles by general alphabetic order.
“Title 8 of the U.S. Code is but one of the fifty titles and deals with "Aliens and Nationality".
“When browsing the INA or other statutes you will often see reference to the U.S. Code citation.
“For example, Section 208 of the INA deals with asylum, and is also contained in 8 U.S.C. 1158.

“Although it is correct to refer to a specific section by either its INA citation or its U.S. code, the INA citation is more commonly used."


U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (forms)
[ http://www.uscis.gov/forms ]

1952 Immigration and Nationality Act
[ http://www.uscis.gov/laws/immigration-and-nationality-act ]

Immigration and Nationality Act
[ http://www.uscis.gov/iframe/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/act.html ]

Nationals and Citizens of the United States at Birth
[ http://www.uscis.gov/iframe/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/act.html ]

Citizenship Through Naturalization
[ http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-naturalization ]

Citizenship Through Parents
[ http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents ]

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

Place & Birth Citizenship in Simple Language

2/

PS.

As usual, Adrien, aka h2ooflife, aka h2o, did not respond to simple questions in his response on July 9, 2014 at 9:15 AM, so maybe he can educate himself with the official USCIS.gov naturalization info and apply it to his unique thoughts that NEVER adduce official sources that clarify what he thinks John Jay meant by underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" that was officially incorporated into the constitution in Article II Sectin 1 Clause 5.

What did the original birthers, the original 1787 Framers, think that John Jay meant?

Inside the U.S.

Birth inside the U.S. to ONLY Two U.S. citizen parents?
Birth inside the U.S. to ONLY One U.S. citizen parent?
Birth inside the U.S. to ALSO Two U.S. citizen parents?
Birth inside the U.S. to ALSO One U.S. citizen parent?

Outside the U.S.

Birth outside the U.S. to ONLY Two U.S. citizen parents?
Birth outside the U.S. to ONLY One U.S. citizen parent?
Birth outside the U.S. to ALSO Two U.S. citizen parents?
Birth outside the U.S. to ALSO One U.S. citizen parent?

Wilted Rose, on July 9, 2014 at 10:21 AM also asked Adrien a simple question.

ajtelles said...
What is your source for your unique thought that Jay "gave it no thought" to place of birth?


>> Thank you, that is my question as well.

>> If he gave no thought to place of birth, wouldn't he have said "natural citizen" instead of "natural born citizen"?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

Your John Jay example regarding his wife having children abroad does not prove your point. His children would have been born to a foreign ambassador and therefore under English common law, the law of nations, and American common law reputed born in the United States. All this children born to him and his wife in a foreign country while he was acting as an ambassador were reputed born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents and therefore natural born citizens.

Anonymous said...

Mario, you missed the point, which was the question of what nationality his children would be, but what he, as an American, would have thought of the very same sort of American children as his own, children of his peers, being deemed aliens?

You, as a non-parent, have no concept of what he would have felt about the matter, but I can say with certainty, it would not have followed your line of thinking.

What you state takes the view that his only attitude would be a matter-of-fact indifference. "I've got mine covered, tough luck about yours my friend, -there is simply nothing in the world that we free Americans can do about it, after all the doctrine and policy are handed down by God himself.

So just accept that the flesh of your flesh is an alien to all of the rest of your fellow Americans. An outsider. Not one of us, -a foreigner to the group to which you belong. May as well give him up for British adoption unless Congress is so benevolent as to grant children like him some form of inclusion as they may see fit.
Since your child inherited zero rights from you, you can't claim that he is automatically an American naturally. You have no unalienable rights regarding your children. The government decides and you just bow down to its decision as a subservient subject of its almighty will. ~ ~ ~

Mario, Wilted Rose shared a quote that showed that British subjects born in America could not inherit as they were viewed as aliens. That was written in 1866.
Do you not grasp that Britain would have long had the same policy toward American children born on its soil?
They would not have deemed them to be British subjects because of American sovereignty over them. They would have excluded them from the British common law native-birth policy and they would have been barred from inheriting British property as aliens.

I bet there's a quote somewhere that verifies that.

That would prove that they were not aliens by birth nor stateless persons but by birthright were born as American citizens, natural American citizens, without need of any government permission.

Anonymous said...

"If he gave no thought to place of birth, wouldn't he have said "natural citizen" instead of "natural born citizen"?

From tomorrow's exposition titled: The Full Depth of National Sovereign Jurisdiction

noun "Citizen" + adjective "born" = born citizen.
noun "Citizen" + adjective "natural" = natural citizen.

noun "man" + adjective "old" = old man
noun "man" + adjective "wise" = wise man
Man + wise + old = wise old man. Not an idiom nor term of legal artifice
Citizen + natural + born = natural born citizen. Not an idiom nor term of legal artifice

adjective "wise" + adjective "old" = nothing (wise-old)

adjective "natural" + adjective "born" = nothing, (natural-born) -not a term of art since it specifies nothing specific.

"natural-born" + "subject = two hyphen-linked adjectives, plus a noun; -it was a term of art since it specified a British subject by any origin. -whether by procreation or by common law or by naturalization).

"natural born" = two separate adjectives, -not a term of art since it also specifies nothing.

Citizen + natural = natural citizen by birth, which = natural born citizen.

Natural citizen = citizen born of citizens.
Born citizen = natural citizen or alien-conceived common law citizen.

The President must be a "born citizen", -but which kind? Either one? No. A natural "born citizen". Not an alien-born nor alien-fathered citizen.

The President must be a "natural citizen", but which kind; a natural citizen by legal fiction or an actual natural citizen by birth?

He must be a citizen-born citizen, -a natural citizen by birth, -born as a natural citizen, -a born natural citizen, i.e., a natural born citizen. (not an artificial law-made so-called "natural" citizen by legal fiction.

That is the only logical way to view his underline. But it seems to be totally unprovable. It is out on a limb, from out in left field, but it makes perfect sense because of the doctrine, both British and American, of citizenship equality, -as well as the root meaning of natural-i-z-a-t-i-o-n.

Plus the fact that membership by blood was the only membership that the national government accepted. Common law citizenship was rejected.
All citizens were equal, except when it came to the presidency. He had to born of American blood and no other.
Just like an heir to the throne had to be born of royal blood and no other.

ajtelles said...

John Jay vs Adrien Nash
or
U.S. Soil Is Necessary For Birth AND 14 Year Residence


Adrien, since you refuse to offer a simple answer to a simple question asked of you on July 9, 2014 at 1:39 PM as to what John Jay was implying when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washington, here is a hypothetical question from John Jay to Adrien Nash.

What do you think John Jay would agree with in your reply to Wilted Rose's question to you"

Wilted Rose to Adrien Nash -

'If he gave no thought to place of birth,
wouldn't he have said "natural citizen"
instead of "natural born citizen'? "


John Jay to Adrien Nash -

Mr. Nash, the "natural born Citizen" phrase that was inserted into Article II Section 1 Clause 5 had only one meaning, not more than one, only one meaning when I wrote it on July 25, 1787 in my note to General Washington, presiding office at the constitutional convention. My original intent and original genesis meaning was adopted without opposition by ALL of the the original birthers, the original Framers, on September 17, 1787.

So, Mr. Nash, since 1787 was so long ago, 227 years ago, a simple question is which of your 2014 words in your answer to Wilted Rose are in agreement with the possible scenarios about birth inside OR outside the U.S.? That is a very important question because birth can ONLY happen on the soil that is ALREADY the national soil of the U.S. citizen parents of the child.

"noun"
"adjective"
"man"
"wise"
"subject"
"citizen"
"alien-conceived common law citizen"
"natural citizen"
"legal fiction"
"actual"
"logical"
"totally unprovable"
"out on a limb"
"from out in left field"
"perfect sense"
"citizenship equality"
"root meaning of natural-i-z-a-t-i-o-n"
"membership by blood"
"common law citizenship"
"all citizens were equal, except"
"had to be born of American blood and no other"
"like an heir to the throne"

Mr. Nash, which of the possible scenarios are in agreement with your unique perspective expressed in your comment to Wilted Rose on July 9, 2014 at 1:39 PM?

Mr. Nash, which of the following scenarios are "logical" and "totally unprovable" and "out on a limb?"

Inside the U.S.

1-Do you think the child MUST be born ONLY inside the U.S. ONLY to two U.S. citizen parents?
2-Do you think the child MAY be born inside the U.S. ONLY to one U.S. citizen parent?
3-Do you think the child MAY be born inside the U.S. ALSO to two U.S. citizen parents?
4-Do you think the child MAY be born inside the U.S. ALSO to one U.S. citizen parent.

Outside the U.S.

5-Do you think the child MAY be born outside the U.S. ONLY to two U.S. citizen parents?
6-Do you think the child MAY be born outside the U.S. ONLY to one U.S. citizen parent?
7-Do you think the child MAY be born outside the U.S. ALSO to two U.S. citizen parents?
8-Do you think the child MAY be born outside the U.S. ALSO to one U.S. citizen parent.

Adrien Nash to John Jay -

Well, Mr. Jay, the answer is right there in every sentence, staring you in the face. Do I need to spell it out to you even more than I did to Wilted Rose? If you don't remember what you meant in 1787, why don't you ask General Washington who conveyed your suggestion to the 1787 convention delegates who also agreed with your original intent?

ajtelles said...

John Jay vs Adrien Nash
or
U.S. Soil Is Necessary For Birth AND 14 Year Residence


2/

Ok, Mr. Jay, here it is again, just as I wrote it today in response to Wilted Rose's question. Every word is purposeful, although you might pick on the words "totally unprovable" and "out on a limb" as not affirming your statement that "birth can ONLY happen on the soil that is ALREADY the national soil of the U.S. citizen parents of the child."

>> noun "Citizen" + adjective "born" = born citizen.
>> noun "Citizen" + adjective "natural" = natural citizen.

>> noun "man" + adjective "old" = old man
>> noun "man" + adjective "wise" = wise man
>> Man + wise + old = wise old man. Not an idiom nor term of legal artifice
>> Citizen + natural + born = natural born citizen. Not an idiom nor term of legal artifice

>> adjective "wise" + adjective "old" = nothing (wise-old)

>> adjective "natural" + adjective "born" = nothing, (natural-born) -not a term of art since it specifies nothing specific.

>> "natural-born" + "subject = two hyphen-linked adjectives, plus a noun; -it was a term of art since it specified a British subject by any origin. -whether by procreation or by common law or by naturalization).

>> "natural born" = two separate adjectives, -not a term of art since it also specifies nothing.

>> Citizen + natural = natural citizen by birth, which = natural born citizen.

>> Natural citizen = citizen born of citizens.
>> Born citizen = natural citizen or alien-conceived common law citizen.

>> The President must be a "born citizen", -but which kind? Either one? No. A natural "born citizen". Not an alien-born nor alien-fathered citizen.

>> The President must be a "natural citizen", but which kind; a natural citizen by legal fiction or an actual natural citizen by birth?

>> He must be a citizen-born citizen, -a natural citizen by birth, -born as a natural citizen, -a born natural citizen, i.e., a natural born citizen. (not an artificial law-made so-called "natural" citizen by legal fiction.

>> That is the only logical way to view his underline. But it seems to be totally unprovable. It is out on a limb, from out in left field, but it makes perfect sense because of the doctrine, both British and American, of citizenship equality, -as well as the root meaning of natural-i-z-a-t-i-o-n.

>> Plus the fact that membership by blood was the only membership that the national government accepted. Common law citizenship was rejected.

>> All citizens were equal, except when it came to the presidency. He had to born of American blood and no other.
Just like an heir to the throne had to be born of royal blood and no other.

>> July 9, 2014 at 6:36 PM

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Art Telles to John Jay -

Mr. John Jay, it's all right there, just staring you in the face.
Read it and learn something you didn't know in 1787.

Mr. Jay, if you are still not clear about your own 1787 original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen," just ask Adrien Nash, aka h2ooflife, aka h2o and he will flood your memory with your original feelings and also let you know what you should have meant.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

We have this from Bob Quasius at Café Con Leche Republicans:

“I don’t know Cuban law, but Ted Cruz is a natural born citizen of the U.S., and was a natural born citizen of Canada until he recently renounced his citizenship.

The term “natural born” comes to us from English common law, which was adopted by each of the 13 colonies when they became independent, except those provisions of English common law that conflicted with state constitutions. In some states, common law was written into their constitutions while in others common law was adopted by reception statute.

I have yet to see a birther provide a statute where a state or federal government has redefined “natural born” to be anything other than someone who is born a citizen, whether by birthright citizenship on U.S. soil or by statute, as is the case with Ted Cruz.”

~~~~~

Regardless of what Cuban or Canadian law might say about Ted Cruz’s citizenship, he is not an Article II natural born citizen under U.S. law. Also, the definition of a natural born citizen does not come from some statute, but rather from constitutional national common law. Congress had yet to pass any statutes when the Framers adopted and the People ratified the Constitution. Also, the Constitution does not allow that it can be changed by a statute, but rather only by a duly ratified constitutional amendment. So, from where does the definition of a natural born citizen come?

The definition of a natural born citizen in a national one, not a state-by-state one as you maintain. Who is eligible to be President needs a uniform and certain answer and not one which depends on interpreting and applying the divergent common law of the states which came from the English common law. Therefore, a natural born citizen is defined my national law, not by the English common law which the states selectively adopted until abrogated by their state legislatures. That national law took is citizenship principles from the law of nations. These were general principles which the Founding generation incorporated into its common law. That common law became American common law and was national in scope. Hence, it was national common law, not English or state common law, which never became our national common law, that defined an Article II natural born citizen.

The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) confirmed that the Framers use this national common law rather than the English common law to define a natural born citizen. The Court explained there that under the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they adopted and ratified the Constitution, a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were it citizens at the time of the child’s birth and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” who could be naturalized by Acts of Congress or treaties. Minor added that “there have been doubts” whether children “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents were even citizens, referring to citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. The Slaughterhouse Cases (1872) had said that children born in the United States to alien parents were not citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. Minor’s expression was not found in English common law, which did not consider the citizenship of the parents of children born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance and on the contrary, without any doubts, considered children born to alien parents in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance to be English “natural-born subjects.” Rather, this statement is an expression of citizenship principles found in the law of nations. See Emer de Vattel, Section 212, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797) (“The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

This national common law definition have never been changed by either a constitutional amendment, including the Fourteenth Amendment, or by a U.S. Supreme Court case, including U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (relying upon the colonial English common law (not the national common law to which Minor looked to define a natural born citizen) to interpret the Fourteenth Amendment (which both Minor and Wong Kim Ark said does not define a natural born citizen) and its “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause, held that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. Hence, today, a natural born citizen is still a child born or reputed born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents who were both its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

This being the one and only constitutional definition of a natural born citizen, de facto President Barack Obama, Senator Ted Cruz, Senator Marco Rubio, and Governor Bobby Jindal are all not natural born citizens. Because of their birth circumstances (all of them were not born in the United States to two U.S. citizen parents), none of them meet the national common law definition of a natural born citizen. Rather, except for Cruz, they are all citizens of the United States at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment (assuming Obama was born in the United States). Cruz is a citizen of the United States at birth under a naturalization Act of Congress, 8 U.S. Sec. 1401(g), which provides that “a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years” is a “citizen of the United States” at birth. With natural born citizen status being inherited only at the time of birth, Cruz cannot change his birth circumstances (make himself a natural born citizen later in life) by renouncing his Canadian citizenship after his birth. None of these persons are Article II natural born citizens and therefore none are eligible to be President.

Anonymous said...

wilted rose, I've just read chapter one of the most fascinating book freely available on the internet; titled A NATIONALITY OF HER OWN.

It details the history and repercussions of nationality laws on women, how they were treated in a manner that was both wonderful and terrible at the same time, -all based on male chauvinist concepts of male-husband supremacy.

Here's some chapter headings:
Chapter 1 Conscripted Allegiance: Marital Naturalization and the Immigrant Woman
Chapter 2 America's Prodigal Daughters and Dutiful Wives: Debating the Expatriation Act of 1907
Chapter 3 The Cable Act: Solutions and Problems
Chapter 4 Entangled Nets: Immigration Control and the Law of Naturalization

Once you start reading you won't be able to stop. It's epic from the standpoint of natural rights; who had them and who didn't.

http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft0g500376&chunk.id=d0e539&toc.id=&brand=ucpress

Anonymous said...

Regarding the nomenclature of the English common law, and its connection to the language of the Constitution, that simply refers to the words themselves, legal terms, but not to the definition of those words. A good example other than natural born citizen is that of treason.

The British had their own definition of treason, but the founders and framers rejected it along with perpetual allegiance and common law dual-nationality citizenship.
Instead, in the Constitution they substituted their own American definition of treason. So the nomenclature remained the same because there were no unique American terms to replace the British terms, but the definition of those terms were on American terms, so to speak.
The framers were bound by nothing of British origin since they were limited only by that which they, and the States could agree on, and they agreed to reject much of what accompanied British common law when it came to certain subjects, including nationality, and the meaning of the combined English words "citizen", "born" and "natural".

Those separate common words used together do not constitute a legal term but a sociological description of one born of citizens of the nation and not born of aliens.
It is all about natural citizenship by birth, i.e. by Right of Blood (descent).
Note these quotes:

By 4 Geo. II. c. 21, the statute of 7 Anne ins explained, to children whose fathers at their birth were natural subjects of Great Britain...

By the statute of 18 Geo. III. persons born out of the allegiance, whose fathers are entitled to the rights of natural subjects, shall also be natural subjects.

Resolved, That by two royal Charters, granted by King James the First, the Colonists aforesaid are declared entitled to all Liberties, Privileges, and Immunities of Denizens and natural Subjects, to all Intents and Purposes, as if they had been abiding and born within the Realm of England."

In America, per the Nat. Acts, the natural citizens of the nation did not include the native-born children of aliens, unlike in Britain where the natural subjects were viewed as all those born within the realm.
So similar common law terminology did not result in a similar meaning.

Anonymous said...

Bob Quasius at Café Con Leche Republicans:

“I don’t know Cuban law, but Ted Cruz is a natural born citizen of the U.S., and was a natural born citizen of Canada until he recently renounced his citizenship."
In other words, the words don't mean a damn thing, the term is just an imported legal term of artifice that actually is synonymous with nothing other than the simple word "citizen".

The means the framers were dummies who foolishly and unnecessarily used superfluous words in a meaningless fashion in the most important and well-thought-out document in America, ever.
In other words, what they reeeeally meant to say was that NO PERSON, except a citizen, shall be eligible...(!)
How can an intelligent person claim something so stupid?
Answer: superficial thinking, -i.e., non-thinking, mental echoing without any thought behind it.

"I have yet to see a birther provide a statute where a state or federal government has redefined “natural born”...”

And you won't because you cannot RE-define something that has no definition.
Someone recently related that in none of the legal dictionaries of the founders' era was "natural born" included, and that is because it had no meaning whatsoever, having been bastardized in Britain to such an extent as to be meaningless, -the reason it was eventually totally abandoned.

Anonymous said...

Mario quoted the basis of the citizenship of Ted Cruz: 8 U.S. Sec. 1401(g), which provides that “a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years” is a “citizen of the United States” at birth.

It is important to stress that no one whose citizenship is dependent on a naturalization statute, -who is a statutory citizen and not a citizen at all without that statute, can never be even associated with the origin and nature of those who are immutably natural citizens by birth and cannot be anything else.

Their citizenship is like a bicycle with only one wheel. Such a short-coming does not meet the definition in either case.

Anonymous said...

Mario, what is your understanding of when the end point was for the naturalization acts deeming children of naturalized fathers to be U.S. citizens but only if dwelling within the U.S.?
Did it persist in the 1855 Act and after and only end with the Wong opinion? I'm guessing that that is the case, since I can't find the 1855 act on the internet.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

Here is the pertinent language of the Naturalization Act of 1855:

"The children of persons who have been duly naturalized under any law of the United States, . . . being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of the naturalization of their parents, shall, if dwelling in the United States, be considered as citizens thereof; and the children of persons who now are, or have been, citizens of the United States, shall, though born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, be considered as citizens thereof."

Act of Feb. 10, 1855, 10 St.L. 604, Sec. 1, codified as Rev.St.U.S., §2172.

“This statute (§2172) is prospective as well as retrospective. It applies to cases arising since its enactment as well as to those which had then already arisen. The minor children, residing in this country, of persons naturalized, become citizens by the parents' naturalization.”

B.C. Moon, The Removal of Causes from the Courts of the Several States to the Circuit Courts of the United States, §118, p. 294 (1901) (this book has a lot of interesting materials in it).

§2172 corrected what was argued to be an injustice created by the Naturalization Act of 1802, which treated children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who acquired that status after 1802 as aliens. You will recall this was the subject upon which Horace Binney wrote and which Justice Gray commented upon in Wong Kim Ark.

As you can see, the 1855 Act carried forward the rule that children of aliens were aliens and became citizens of the United States upon the naturalization of their parents. This was the naturalization statute in place when the Supreme Court decided U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark in 1898. As we know, Wong Kim Ark changed that rule. Wong Kim Ark ruled that children born in the United States to alien parents who were permanently domiciled and residents and who were not foreign diplomats or military invaders were citizens of the United States from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. Hence, Congress had to adjust its future naturalization acts accordingly. As a result of Wong Kim Ark, today we have 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) which is a codification of Wong Kim Ark. This statute provides:

§1401. Nationals and citizens of United States at birth
The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof. . .

On page v of Mr. Moons book, there is a section devoted to “NOMENCLATURE.” You might want to take a look at how Mr. Moon uses the word nomenclature. Remember the Minor court used the same word when referring to the common law to which the Framers looked for their definition of a natural born citizen (not a natural-born subject).

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Here is something very interesting from Justice Gray in Lamar:

“An infant cannot change his own domicile. As infants have the domicile of their father, he may change their domicile by changing his own, and after his death, the mother, while she remains a widow, may likewise, by changing her domicile, change the domicile of the infants, the domicile of the children in either case following the independent domicile of their parent. Kennedy v. Ryall, 67 N.Y. 379; Potinger v. Wightman, 3 Meriv. 67; Dedham v. Natick, 16 Mass. 135; Dicey on Domicile 97-99. But when the widow, by marrying again, acquires the domicile of a second husband, she does not, by taking her children by the first husband to live with her there, make the domicile which she derives from the second husband their domicile, and they retain the domicile which they had, before her second marriage, acquired from her or from their father.

Page 112 U. S. 471

Cumner v. Milton, 3 Salk. 259; S.C. Holt 578; Freetown v. Taunton, 16 Mass. 52;School Directors v. James, 2 Watts & Sergeant 568; Johnson v. Copeland, 35 Ala. 521;Brown v. Lynch, 2 Bradford 214; Mears v. Sinclair, 1 W.V. 185; Pothier, Introduction Generale aux Coutumes, No. 19; 1 Burge Colonial and Foreign Law, 39; 4 Phillimore International Law (2d ed.) § 97.”

Lamar v. Micou, 112 U.S. 452, 471 (1884).

Justice Gray decided Lamar 14 years before he wrote the Wong Kim Ark decision. Given this quote, assuming a child who was born in the United States to alien parents who were not domiciled in the United States, under a liberal interpretation of Wong Kim Ark, the child would be a citizen of the United States, but with a foreign domicile. That sounds pretty strange. Now we know why Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark insisted that the alien parents be permanently domiciled and resident in the United States in order for their U.S-born child to be a citizen of the United States.

ajtelles said...

Clarity

Mario, your reply on July 10, 2014 at 9:18 PM to Adrien's question about the 1855 Naturalization Act is sooooo clear and coherent.

In spite of your clarity the "birth-to-one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is good 'nuf birthers fight you tooth and nail in defense of comments similar to Bob Quasius, "... Ted Cruz is a natural born citizen of the U.S., and was a natural born citizen of Canada until he recently renounced his citizenship.".

Your original intent clarity exposes their irrationality and unreasonableness so they NEVER adduce the original intent and original genesis of clear thinkers such as my 1787 new best friend John Jay, whose original intent informed ALL of the citizenship naturalization acts, citizenship amendments and court citizenship decisions.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

"and the children of persons who now are, or have been, citizens of the United States, shall, though born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, be considered as citizens thereof."

It would seem that the only "persons" that that could pertain to were American women who married foreign men and were considered to have switched nationality due to marriage. It nationalized their foreign-born children, even with no requirement that they be dwelling within the U.S.

It would seem that the rights of American women to pass their U.S. citizenship to their children trumped that of common law alien-born State citizen children who inherited their father's foreign citizenship only (from the federal perspective).

But if that is all true, then the act was providing to children of American women the very thing that the national government detested: a second (American) citizenship! ?

"Now we know why Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark insisted that the alien parents be permanently domiciled and resident in the United States in order for their U.S-born child to be a citizen of the United States."

That is true but is very toxic to your doctrine. Without residency there is no attachment to a foreign nation since one's attachment remains with one's home country while traveling.
Without attachment there is no obligation toward the nation that one visits. Thus there is no allegiance "owed" to that foreign land by parents nor native-born child, the child being under the allegiance and jurisdiction of the father and his government.

But with permanent domicile, that all changes. Attachment results, along with obligations (Selective Service registration, paying taxes, etc.) A native-born child is then born under the full jurisdiction that its domiciled parents are under. Then citizenship naturally attaches.

But the same is true of American babies born abroad to Americans who are transients and not permanent residents.
If transient foreigners' U.S. born babies are foreigners only, then the same is true of transient Americans' babies born abroad. They are not born with natural membership in that foreign nation because they lack domicile and its attachments.
They are aliens, being American only, -with national membership not attaching to them where they were born since the parents remain attached and subject to the jurisdiction of their homeland, the United States.

That is something that requires no statute to be true. It is naturally true, and such children are therefore naturally natural born citizens born of citizens and without any foreign nationality.

Looks like check-mate.

Anonymous said...

I came across a posting of about a dozen examples of Massachusetts personal naturalization statutes, with about half of them using the old "natural born subject" language. Example:

March, 1791, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING JOHN WHITE & OTHERS" in which it was declared that John White and others, “shall be deemed adjudged and taken, to be free citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, privileges, and immunities of natural born subjects.”

"Maybe on a practical level the founding generation weren't concerned about the conceptual differences between "subjects" and "citizens"."

That should have been rephrased: Maybe on a STATE level... They were not concerned because unless the State restricted the governorship to only natural born citizens, there was no distinction whatsoever.
In fact, the words "natural born" could have logically been dispensed with altogether:

"...and entitled to all the liberties, privileges, and immunities of citizens." (Period!)
But the legal minds were all habituated to using the superfluous excess verbiage, and the much older generation of lawyers that wrote such statutes, were totally programmed in the usage of "subject" alone.

Citizen never even came to mind as being attached to "natural born".
Those four decades younger were able to make the switch. But not the grand-dads of the legal profession.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

I of II

Your domicile example proves nothing and surely not my check-mate. First, children followed the condition of their parents (partus sequitur patrem). If their parents were permanent inhabitants (domiciled residents), their children inherited from them the birth status of permanent inhabitant. Second, the Obot thesis is that the Framers used the English common law definition of a natural born subject to define an Article II natural born citizen. But the English common law jus soli rule made no mention of parental domicile and did not require it in order for a child born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance to be a natural-born subject. So where do you come from throwing domicile into the equation in order to make persons born in the country to alien parents natural born citizens? Third, American citizenship was based on consent. Children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents could not inherit from them the status of citizen or natural born citizen, for the parents could not consent to transmit to their children something which they themselves did not possess. So, you have proven nothing with your domicile argument other than demonstrating in grand Adrien Nash style that you just shoot from the mouth without understanding the ramifications of what you are saying.

The Massachusetts naturalization statutes make my point that the Naturalization Act of 1790 did not “make” children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents true natural born citizens. As you can see from the Massachusetts acts, those persons were not citizens from birth. They were naturalized as state citizens after birth. Yet, the legislature said that they shall not only be “deemed adjudged and taken” to be citizens, but also given the “liberties, privileges, and immunities” of “natural born subjects.” Clearly, those naturalized persons became citizens, they did not become natural born citizens. Rather, they were only given the privileges and immunities of natural born subjects. (Having in the very same sentence declared that those persons were now “citizens,” the legislature really meant to say natural born citizen.”)

You will note from the language of the Naturalization Act of 1790 that Congress did not first say that the naturalized persons were now citizens and given the privileges and immunities of natural born citizens. It did not include a part regarding what privileges and immunities they had and simply declared that they “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” But since it used “shall be considered as natural born citizen,” it recognized that the true natural born citizens was another class of persons and was not really making true natural born citizens, but rather only citizens and giving them the privileges and immunities of natural born citizens.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

But our Constitution at Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 prescribes who is eligible to be President. Neither a state legislature nor Congress can change that by statute. Hence, those privileges and immunities given by the Massachusetts legislature could not include the privilege of being eligible to be President, a privilege which only the Constitution gives to persons born or reputed born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The Third Congress and the special committee that worked on the new legislation, under the leadership of then-Representative James Madison, had to have realized that only the Constitution can tell us who shall be eligible to be President and, knowing that children born out of the United States to alien parents were in need of naturalization and could therefore not be natural born citizens, therefore changed the language of the naturalization act from “shall be considered as natural born citizens” to “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” President George Washington approved the change. With that statutory change, Congress made clear that those children were citizens of the United States by having said so through its naturalization powers and enjoyed all the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States, except for the privilege of being eligible to be President which the Constitution gave only to a natural born citizen.

So, Mr. Nash, you have continued to strike out in the past, and now you strike out again with two more times at bat.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "Your domicile example proves nothing"

Quite the contrary, it proves everything, but your bias blindness prevented your firmly-entrenched mind from grasping the point, and instead it invented its own delusional straw man to counter the truth.
~ "If their parents were permanent inhabitants (domiciled residents), their children inherited from them the birth status of permanent inhabitant."

That is a fact, the result of which is that the child was thus born under the father's subjection and was thus deemed a 14th Amendment common law U.S. citizen.

If the parents were transients, then the child inherited no subjection from a non-subject, non-domiciled father, -born an alien with only his father's foreign nationality, -same with transient Americans who had a child born abroad, -NOT SUBJECT due to reciprocity.

Such an American child was born as an American, a born citizen via partus sequitur patrem, having no dual citizenship, no foreign "allegiance from birth", -born as a natural member of the American society and nation. Check mate.

~"So where do you come from throwing domicile into the equation in order to make persons born in the country to alien parents natural born citizens?"

Mario, if you made that 1000% false characterization by unintentional error, then you need to stop smoking whatever it is that you're smoking.
In order to not look like an ass, you should acknowledge that I made no such outlandish claim and you made a simple error of recollection.
Even that cannot explain how you managed to pull from the left field of some other ball park such a wild and baseless claim that flies in the face of everything that I've ever written.

~"Third, American citizenship was based on consent. Children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents could not inherit from them the status of citizen or natural born citizen, for the parents could not consent to transmit to their children something which they themselves did not possess."

WOW! You've just denied what you hold so dear! That government has the unlimited authority to ascribe or deny citizenship based on its own will.
Jus Sanguinis citizenship is not within the reach of government authority because it is natural membership, just like that within a family.
But government can deem anyone to be a citizen if its lawful authority allows it, and the Supreme Court in Wong assumed that it possessed such authority. That is seen in Congress naturalizing automatically foreign brides of American grooms.
THERE WAS NO CONSENT INVOLVED! (Nat. Act. 1855) You err grossly.

U.S. citizenship was a gift of America, just like its open immigration policy had been earlier. It was automatic due to native-birth alone following the executive policy of A.G. John Griggs.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

What you wrote and my response stand for themselves. Your after-the-fact spin on what you wrote or intended after receiving my response does not help you.

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