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Monday, March 25, 2013

Senator Ted Cruz Is Not a “Natural Born Citizen” and Therefore Not Eligible to Be President


Senator Ted Cruz Is Not a “Natural Born Citizen” and Therefore Not Eligible
                                               to be President

                                           By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
                                                 March 25, 2013

It is pretty amazing to see to what lengths some will go to convince us that their favorite political candidate is eligible to be President. Greg Conterio has written an article in which he concludes that Senator Ted Cruz, who was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and non-U.S. citizen father, is eligible to be President. The article can be read at http://www.westernfreepress.com/2013/03/23/birtherism-and-the-tyranny-of-ignorance/?hubRefSrc=email#lf_comment=65580535 .

I do not object to Mr. Conterio having a view that is different from mine on the definition of a "natural born Citizen." What is most objectionable is how he goes about attempting to prove that he is correct and others are wrong. In referring to those who do not agree with him, Mr. Conterio uses language such as “ ‘Birtherism’ and the Tyranny of Ignorance,” (the title of his article), “resurgence of the ‘Birther’ phenomenon,” “depth of ignorance,” “false assertions,” “sort of thing,” “completely wrong,” “nonsense,” and “twist themselves into knots.” What is really amazing is that he also tells us that it only took him “a few minutes to do a quick internet search” to come up with the correct answer on the meaning of a “natural born Citizen” and how Ted Cruz meets that definition. And how could I not mention that he tells us that “[s]ome guy with a blog, or some attorney with some bizarre sounding legal theory are NOT authoritative sources.” I wonder what attorney Mr. Conterio has in mind.

Mr. Conterio’s sole source for his definition of a “natural born Citizen” is Congressional statutes (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401 et seq.). He cites and quotes those statutes and while conceding that they at most only declare persons to be “citizens of the United States” at birth, he says that Congress’s expression has the equivalent constitutional meaning as a “natural born Citizen.” There are several problems with Mr. Conterio’s argument.

First, given that the Founders and Framers inserted the “natural born Citizen” clause into the Constitution and they must have had a purpose for doing so, the clause had to have a specific meaning. As we shall see below, that meaning was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. The fact that there was in the Constitutional Convention no debate on the meaning of the clause gives us more evidence that the clause must have had a settled meaning. We also know that the Founders and Framers relied upon the clause to keep foreign influence and royalty out of the office of President and Commander in Chief. The historical record shows that the Founders and Framers were most concerned about foreign influence invading the administration of our new government. So, while they did have a concern with royalty occupying the office of President, the purpose for using the “natural born Citizen” clause was broader. As John Jay stated in his famous July 25, 1787 letter to then-General George Washington, he proposed that the Commander in Chief of the Military be a “natural born Citizen” so as to provide a “strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government.” The historical record contains statements from other Founders, Framers, and commentators as to the need to keep foreign influence out of the Office of President and Commander in Chief. Moreover, even assuming that the purpose was only to keep royalty out of the White House, the Founders and Framers would have required that a child be born to parents who were U.S. citizens to make sure that their child at the moment of birth did not inherit from either one of his parents titles of royalty or nobility.

So, we can see that the “natural born Citizen” clause, by requiring birth in the country to citizen parents, served a great purpose for the Founders and Framers. It not only was designed to keep foreign influence out of the Office of President and Commander in Chief. But it was also designed to make sure that those high and powerful civil and military offices would never end up in the hands of royalty or nobility. In short, the Founders and Framers through the clause sought to preserve the new constitutional republic not only for the present, but also for Posterity.

The historical record also shows that at first, the Framers were going to allow Congress to appoint the President. But they decided against that idea because they feared the foreign influence running rampant in Congress would spill over onto the office of President and Commander in Chief. So they decided on the Electoral College, a group of electors who would come together only once every four years to elect the President and then disband. The process was explained by Hamilton in Federalist No. 68: The Mode of Electing the President (Hamilton). In referring to the President, Alexander Hamilton described him as the “person to whom so important a trust was to be confided. . . .” He described the Office of President as “so important an agency in the administration of the government . . .” “Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union?” Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 68, 457-61 (12 Mar. 1788). So we can see why the Framers took it out of the hands of Congress to elect the President and why they gave that task to the Electoral College.

Yet, Mr. Conterio wants to give Congress the power, not to confirm what that settled meaning of a “natural born Citizen” was, but to actually change it as it wishes and when it wishes. On the contrary, Congress through Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 only has the power to make uniform the laws of naturalization. It would not only be contradictory to give Congress the power to change the meaning of “natural born Citizen” through its naturalization powers, but would also fly in the face of the Framers having taken away from Congress the power to elect the President and the reason for doing so.

Second, Mr. Conterio does not realize that by giving Congress the power to define a “natural born Citizen” as it wishes and when it wishes he is giving Congress the power to amend the Constitution without constitutional amendment. I wonder what Mr. Conterio would say if he knew that from 1802 to 1855, any child born out of the United States, even to citizen parents, was considered by Congress to be an alien. What does that do to Mr. Conterio’s thesis of Congress deciding by statute who is a “natural born Citizen?” What did Congress’s 1802 statute do to Ted Cruz’s eligibility to be President? We know that the citizens made the Constitution and not vice versa. But yet, Mr. Conterio would have Congress decide who is a “natural born Citizen,” even giving to it the power to deny that status to a child who inherits by nature from his or her parents the right to be born in a free and independent republican America.

Third, Mr. Conterio assumes without proving that a “citizen at birth” or “citizen from birth” is the constitutional equivalent to an Article II “natural born Citizen.” I have argued at length that the clause is “natural born Citizen” and not any other variation. I have also argued at length and historical sources, Acts of Congress, and U.S. Supreme Court precedent support me, that the phrases do not have the same constitutional meaning. Being a “citizen at birth” or “citizen from birth” is only one of the necessary conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.” The other two necessary conditions are birth place and birth parents. All three of these conditions, birth time, birth place, and birth parents are necessary and sufficient conditions to be a “natural born Citizen.” See Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758) (explained that the “natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/vattel/vatt-119.htm .; Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875) (“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners”); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898) (same). Contra Ankeny v. Daniels; Tisdale v. Obama; Fair v. Obama (appeal pending); Farrar v. Obama; Galasso v. Obama; Jackson v. Obama; Paige v. Obama (appeal pending) (all found that mere birth in the United States is generally sufficient to make one a “natural born Citizen;” none of these Obama cases are decisions of our U.S. Supreme Court).

Fourth, Mr. Conterio totally discounts the source to which the Founders and Framers would have looked for their definition of a “natural born Citizen.” When the Framers adopted the Constitution in 1787, there were no acts of Congress in place. Hence, the Framers could not have possibly looked to Congressional Acts which came later in time for the meaning of the clause. They had to have looked somewhere else for their meaning. Minor told us what that source was. It said it was the common law. And under the definition that Minor gave us of a “natural-born citizen,” a concept that belonged to the nation to define and not to any one individual state, we know that that common law was not the English common law, which had application only in the states and which the U.S. Supreme Court many times when interpreting terms in the Constitution consulted on matters that affected state local issues, but rather American national common law which had its source in the law of nations as found in Vattel’s Section 212 of The Law of Nations.

Fifth, Mr. Conterio does not realize that all expressions of U.S. citizenship found in the positive laws such as the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, and treaties are nothing but exceptions to the American national common law definition of a “natural born Citizen.” It is telling that none of these laws include within their text the words “natural born Citizen.” Rather, they all use “citizen of the United States.” As Minor also explained, at common law, anyone who did not meet the definition of a “natural-born citizen” was an “alien or foreigner.” Hence, citizens made through these other positive laws are not “natural born Citizens,” but rather “citizens of the United States,” either at birth or after birth. They are given that status by positive law creating exceptions to the American national common law rule. Those exceptions do not drive or become the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Rather, they only allow the making of more “citizens of the United States" and in the end prove through the exceptions themselves what the correct definition actually is. See Wong Kim Ark (which created another exception under the Fourteenth Amendment to the general national common law definition of a “natural-born citizen” by distinguishing a child born in the country to alien parents from a “natural born” child born in the country to “citizen” parents and finding that the former, because of being born in the country was as much a “citizen” as the latter, found Wong, who was born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents who were “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States, to be a “citizen of the United States” at birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment (not to be conflated and confounded with a “natural-born citizen”)).

So, now we have Mr. Conterio trying to convince us that any argument on the meaning of a “natural born Citizen” that does not fit well with him can only come from someone or something that is not only not an “authoritative source,” but also a “tyranny of ignorance.” On the other hand, he tells us that he is an “authoritative source” and well-informed on the “natural born Citizen” clause. Readers can decide for themselves what are the authoritative sources, what is logical and based on reason, and from all that what is the correct meaning of an Article II “natural born Citizen.” A thoughtful and thorough analysis of all the historical and legal sources should lead the critical thinker to the unshakable conclusion that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in a country to parents who were it “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Since Ted Cruz was not born in the country (he was born in Canada) and he was not born to “citizen” parents (his father was not a U.S. citizen at the time of his son's birth), he is not and cannot be a “natural born Citizen.” Under an Act of Congress (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g)), he is a "citizen of the United States" at birth. This means for him that he is eligible to be a Senator, who at a minimum only has to be a “citizen of the United States” for nine years, but not eligible to be President, who must be a “natural born Citizen.”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
March 25, 2013
http://puzo1.blogspot.com
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349 comments:

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Anonymous said...

Primal Bonds, Duties, and Rights: continued further down...
~The implication of these facts is that when the Supreme Court ruled that domestically born children of immigrants were subject to federal authority (even though it was only latent authority until they reached adulthood, and flowed only through their father or widowed mother), it did not simulaneously rule that domestically born children of non-immigrants were also born under that subjection. It could not rule that because that is a violation of the 14th Amendment citizenship clause since non-immigrant fathers bear no responsibility to defend a nation that is not theirs. Their visit to America, along with their pregnant wife, did not obligate them to defend America because they would not have a primal bond to America, nor a primal duty to defend it. And America would have no primal right to force them to. They remained subject to their duty to their own nation, and their son born in America would inherit that same duty as a latent obligation to serve in the defense of that nation one day if called.
That would be a natural obligation of all sons of their nation, -the one in which they also would be raised and attached.
The result of these facts is that the 14th Amendment did not grant citizenship to children of non-immigrants because they, like their fathers, were exempt by primal law, as were U.S.-born children of immigrants. But the Supreme Court imposed the principle of primal duty on native-born children of immigrants, while not imposing it on native-born children of non-immigrants. That is the clear limit of their opinion, the boundary that it did not cross, but unfortunately for the nation during its last several decades, that was a boundary that the Attorney General (John Griggs) did cross in interpreting their opinion. And now the belief that any child born in America is a citizen via the authority of the 14th Amendment is an institutionalized error that is assumed by all to be a fundamental element of American law when in fact it has no basis whatsoever in actual law. He made that erroneous conclusion because he had no clue about what the subjection requirement of the amendment meant. But without it, no child is born a citizen of the United States, even if the incorrect and ignorant policy of the government since then has assumed that the opinion and resulting policy of Attorney General Griggs is the law of the land. But actually, it is only the policy of the land. By that policy Barack Obama is a citizen of the United States, but not by any actual law or court opinion.



Anonymous said...

"the SCOTUS favorably cited to Horace Binney's recognition of TWO types of born US citizens,
i.e. one being "the child of an alien, if born in the country" and the other being "the NATURAL BORN child OF A CITIZEN".

Wow! Where has that quote been hiding all this time? The obomunists love to quote authorities, well let them quote that one. What could be more unequivocal?

Unknown said...

It is quite a stretch to say a 14th amd citizen of the us is the same as a natural born citizen of the us. As far as being native born, i do not think the Founders wouldve considered children of a alien terrorist father, like tamerlin, citizens at birth just because they were born here. If he had lived and never been caught i am pretty sure he wouldve raised his children to hate usa just like he did.It is not a God given right one can become a citizen, it should be earned by alien children either as a adult or as their parents being accepted as citizens. If you are trying to protect the country like the Founders were then this is what you would do

Unknown said...

Teo Bear wrote:
"While not a constitutional check on Obama's power, we have in our own way increased the national resistance to his usurpation of power to the point that over 1/2 of the people have some doubts about Obama's birth narrative, with 35% out right believing he is not a natural born citizen and only 25% swearing he is.

It may come down to our efforts which apply a sort of speed break to any attempt to impose martial law or strip away our God given rights. We have established enough of a question about Obama's eligibility that we will not go gently into the night.

For all your hard work, determination and support a very sharp sword representing 35% of America hangs above his head."


Sword of Damocles? Not so much. Prominent American conservatives never wanted anything to do with this fringe nonsense. After Obama won reelection, their serious question was how much it hurt the conservative cause and whether they should have done more to condemn it and distance themselves from you.

Teo, those poll numbers are in line with what 9/11 kooks can cite. A significant fraction of the American public though that the neo-cons of Bush administration either made the attack happen on purpose or let it happen on purpose. If we include "have some doubts" responses, the 9/11 whack-job conspiracy cranks out-polled you eligibility deniers.

Despite the poll numbers, President G. W. Bush faced no serious trouble from the 9/11 kooks. Likewise, President Obama faces no serious challenge from eligibility deniers. For all the problems with our system, we don't turn the controls over to the know-nothings. All the cranks do is embarrass their own side.

Look what we're seeing here now: denials that Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley, or Ted Cruz could be president. It's not coming from liberals trying to preempt the highest prospects of these talented conservatives. It's Obama-haters boxed into a stupid position because they vehemently, albeit uselessly, argued it when when they thought it could advance their interests.

Carlyle said...

@ Unknown -

I don't have a "side".

I have said many times that I do not know The Truth. But then, neither do you. Because of the active suppression of information, Truth is hard to come by. This is further aggravated by the absolute refusal of the MSM to do any investigative journalism. (Yet, if, say, Ms. Palin were involved, the MSM would be turning over rocks from here to Siberia!).

My point is, at bottom, simply this. We The People deserve our day in court. At least three major issues need to be heard and decided ON THEIR MERITS - which has yet to happen.

1. Definition of NBC, especially as applied to multiple citizenships.

2. Fraudulent eligibility documents.

3. Social Security (and Draft Registration?) fraud.

Then let the chips fall where they may.

The only thing that causes me to "take a side" is the deep and steadfast fear one side has in getting to the bottom of this.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Apuzzo,

Were you at the Vermont Supreme Court hearing today?

If so anything you can share with us?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

4zoltan,

I did not attend the H. Brooke Paige Barack Obama eligibility hearing today in the Vermont Supreme Court.

I do know that the hearing went well. The Justices gave Mr. Paige's case the respect that it deserves. Mr. Paige did an excellent job presenting the arguments. Apart from the procedural and justiciable issues, he was able to present his argument on the meaning that the Founders and Framers gave to the "natural born Citizen" clause.

We are now waiting for a decision.

MichaelN said...

Unknown said ....

"Look what we're seeing here now: denials that Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley, or Ted Cruz could be president. It's not coming from liberals trying to preempt the highest prospects of these talented conservatives. It's Obama-haters boxed into a stupid position because they vehemently, albeit uselessly, argued it when when they thought it could advance their interests."

Interesting theory, there are zillions of theories out there, hard to tell where they are coming from, but you have a problem by relying on fallacy.

Go here for help...
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

What's your problem with Article II's "natural born Citizen" meaning both native-born and natural born, as a security measure to reduce the risk of foreign influence and allegiance from infecting the office of the POTUS?

Why do you want so much for lower standards of security?

Your whole stupid argument is based on the absurd notion that the Framers were negligent in their duty of care, or they were so blind and believed that "natural" really meant "native".

That the Framers didn't give a shit about who could be POTUS.

I don't think so!

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I did not attend the H. Brooke Paige Barack Obama eligibility hearing today in the Vermont Supreme Court.

I do know that the hearing went well. The Justices gave Mr. Paige's case the respect that it deserves. Mr. Paige did an excellent job presenting the arguments. Apart from the procedural and justiciable issues, he was able to present his argument on the meaning that the Founders and Framers gave to the 'natural born Citizen' clause."


You know it went well based on what?

This was an appeal of the Washington (Vermont) Superior Court's decision to dismiss. The primary reason for dismissal was that Paige lacked standing. Secondly, the Superior Court had heard Paige on the definition of "natural born citizen" and concluded, "Mr. Paige's argument on the merits fails." Each of the Superior Court's reasons was by itself sufficient to dismiss.

Yesterday the Vermont Supreme Court heard Paige's appeal. The Burlington Free Press reported on the hearing. According to the article by staff writer Sam Hemingway, justices of the Vermont Supreme Court questioned two more issues: "How can the court issue an order when he (President Obama) is not a party to the case", and "whether it was necessary for the court to make a ruling now that the election was over."
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20130423/NEWS03/304230018/Vt-Supreme-Court-hears-case-challenging-legality-Barack-Obama-s-run-re-election


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"We are now waiting for a decision."

I predict the decision will go against Mr. Paige. From the two courts I count four reasons for Paige to lose: Lack of proper service, mootness at this point in time, lack of standing, and failure on the merits. The standing issue ties to others which could also be dispositive against Paige, such as why deciding this federal issue is up to the great state of Vermont.

What issue(s) will ground the Vermont Supreme Court's dismissal of Paige? Alas, clearly as the obot crystal ball foretells Paige's defeat, it's cloudy on some of those specifics. We obots can predict that *if* the Court reaches the definition of "natural-born citizen" the Court will take our side and not Mr. Apuzzo's. Big if.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Apuzzo,

You may not know the answer to this, but why didn't Mr. Paige serve Candidate Obama in the same way you did in New Jersey?

Teo Bear said...

Unknown,

You wrote in response to me "Blah, Blah Blah ... Likewise, President Obama faces no serious challenge from eligibility deniers."

If this is not a serious issue raising concern with the likes of you and other obots then the question is, why waste your efforts here. Arn't you needed by OFA pushing gun control, immigration reform or what ever the Obomanation and Desolation wants you to do? The truth is this still worries you obots.

Of course I might be wrong and your left hand is in a cast, thereby preventing you from jacking off and you can only use your right hand to hunt and peck a few letters at a time hoping to amuse yourself.

Love

Teo

Unknown said...

Teo Bear wrote:
"If this is not a serious issue raising concern with the likes of you and other obots then the question is, why waste your efforts here."

It's a hobby.

Teo Bear wrote:
"Arn't you needed by OFA pushing gun control, immigration reform or what ever the Obomanation and Desolation wants you to do? The truth is this still worries you obots."

You have me all wrong. My thing is conspiracy theories, not the Obama agenda. When I was refuting the 9/11 inside-job kooks, many wrote that I was a neo-con agent, and some asserted that I was well paid. The perpetual-motion crowd thinks giant energy cartels employ me to suppress their innovations. Nope. A hobbyist.

Teo Bear wrote:
"Of course I might be wrong and your left hand is in a cast, thereby preventing you from jacking off and you can only use your right hand to hunt and peck a few letters at a time hoping to amuse yourself."

Yeah, I get a lot of that. No one ever says, "Thanks for debunking me."

MichaelN said...

@Unknown

Let's see if you can show precisely where in 17th century English law it was expressly held or ruled that native-birth sufficed to make a natural born subject without regard to the subject status of the father of a native-born.

Let's pretend Justice Gray in the Wong Kim Ark was correct, and the Framers followed the English rule, then where precisely is it to be found, in the face of the following excerpts from Gray's favorite English law case, where the local ligeance of a friendly alien made that alien a subject and as a consequence, any native born children to that alien were natural born subjects, because they would be born "under the ligeance of a subject" father.

"There be regulary (unlesse it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born.
1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the king.
2. That the place of his birth be within the king’s dominion.
And 3. the time of his birth is chiefly to be considered"

and

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

Where could Justice Gray possible have got the notion that native-birth alone was sufficient to make a natural born subject?

For the English rule to apply to the US, then a native-born child would have to be "born under the ligeance" of a US citizen father to be a natural born citizen.

Just saying that others have followed an error by citing court opinions and dicta which followed error, doesn't make the error right, but you should already know about fallacies.

Where in English law?

Unknown said...

If this was actually judged on the merits then no court would say the child of alien has ever been a NBC but they can be a citizen of the US. You do not need to be SC Chief Justices like John Marshall or Morison Waite to figure out Congress has no say or power to deny citizenship to children of american citizens born on US soil. Btw, after studying this fiasco the past year i have also looked into JFK, watergate and 911 and all 3 the US Govt has lied about and covered up the real reasons. I go by the evidence and no one can tell me that wtc 7 magically collapsed without anything hitting it and 100 k of interconnected steel girders in WTC 1 and 2 somehow turned to dust because of a fire. Read Dr Judy Woods book "where did the towers go"? We all saw the pictures of the dust tsunami on 911 and the tiny rubble pile of buildings 1/4 mile high

Teo Bear said...

Unk,

You wrote "Yeah, I get a lot of that. No one ever says, "Thanks for debunking me.""

In your wildest, wet dreams you debunked me or anyone here. All you do is shovel the same $hite trying to sell it to the obots as chocolate, but it stinks and the only thing that sticks to it are the flies from the Lord of the flies. I never say thank you to a person who pi$$e$ on my leg, and tells me its raining. Nor do I buy umbrellas from such a person.

By the way when are you going to explain to us how WKA decision made him a NBC? We are still waiting. ... Oh perhaps that is an other unknown.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Teo,

The problem with people like Unknown is that they know quite well they went through a red light but have the nerve to keep telling the cop, their family and friends, and ultimately the judge their dastardly story that it was green or at least yellow.

Another problem with the Unknown ilk is that they tell us that when it comes to nation building, “Maximum Strength Protection” only applies to deodorant, not to the Office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

Carlyle said...

I hate conspiracy theories and conspiracy theorists - and maybe it's just me - but I don't see any CTs here. I don't see anything that needs to be debunked.

All I see is some legitimate questions:

1. Who is Obama and where did he come from (and what does he want)?

2. What is the complete and correct definition of NBC (and does Obama fit)?

Also people offer their opinions ranging from pure speculation on one end to very thoroughly researched conclusions on the other. Mostly, we just want our day in court. A chance to clear up these issues.

ON THE OTHER HAND

Maybe there is a big conspiracy here and the most despicable sorts of conspiracy theorists?

Doesn't it take a truly twisted mind to believe that none of Obama's background matters? That none of the forged documents or other lies matter? Don't you end up having to believe that Obama is "the only virgin in the w-house"?

Again, maybe it's just me, but I find it far easier to believe that Aliens are stacked like cord wood at Area 51 than to believe that Obama is remotely American, an NBC, or even a citizen of any kind.

js said...

The US Constitution makes no mention of the definition of what a Natural Born Citizen is. There must have been a reason behind that omission. It would have been an obvious fact to the Founding fathers, which they had no conscious need to dispute, debate, or define.
That being said, a child born of a foreign citizen, in the borders of the USA, still has a right, a duty, and an obligation, to his father’s nation. If the father were to leave the USA, taking the child home with him, the USA has no authority to force that child to remain in the USA, nor any authority to demand his/her return for certain obligatory duties, like say, to draft him/her into the service of the US Military in time of war.
This is in opposition to the child whose citizenship gives the government that complete authority without any dispute. Any child that is born in the USA, and when the USA has jurisdiction, that is, complete jurisdiction, then that child is born a Natural Born US Citizen. There is no question as to the citizenship, to the rights of the child to that citizenship, or the rights of any foreign nation to any form of jurisdiction over the child. Children born as dual citizens can never be natural born citizens because foreign nations do have jurisdiction over the child as well. The recognition of dual citizenship at birth represents a protection of that Childs rights, as well as recognition of foreign government’s rights, to jurisdiction over the children of its citizens.
The 14th amendment provides indisputable citizenship to children born in this nation, providing that it has jurisdiction, as in, simple custodial due to location, as has been adjudicated by our courts. This is not a form of natural born citizenship, as the jurisdiction over the child may be shared with that of another nation at birth. A natural born citizen can hold absolutely no citizenship type relationship with any foreign nation at birth or the entire concept of a natural allegiance is without purpose.

Unknown said...

My wife is from philippines and if she gave birth to our child over there then i do not care what anyone says, that kid is a american citizen period and he would also be a filipino citizen if my wife had still been one herself. It is a natural right for children to inherit citizenship from their parents and according to the minor court the parents have to be citizens of same country for their children to be considered a NBC. The President is most powerful man in the country and the current frauds campaign spent well over $1B in the last 2 selections making sure he won and we can only imagine where a liar and crook like him got that money, i bet a lot of it came from saudi and other foreign sources who hate USA. To think that the Framers wanted anyone born a foreign citizen to be eligible for most powerful office in country is silliness.

Unknown said...

"The problem with people like Unknown is that they know quite well they went through a red light but have the nerve to keep telling the cop, their family and friends, and ultimately the judge their dastardly story that it was green or at least yellow."

Darn! People like me lose yet another of your imaginary cases.

Could reality be more different? The things that "people like Unknown" keep telling various parties -- not your make-believe ones but what we actually say -- the things we keep telling you keep getting confirmed in real cases decided by real judges on the benches of real courts.

Mr. Apuzzo, you've ridiculed lots of mainstream obot positions and sometimes accused us of lying. Remember writing:

"Putative President Obama's supporters are out and about arguing that the Kerchner v. Obama/Congress case is exactly like the Berg v. Obama case and therefore the Third Circuit Court of Appeals should affirm the District Court's dismissal of the case for lack of standing. This is not only an incredible statement but an outright lie."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/06/kerchner-v-obamacongress-case-is-not.html

How did that turn out? The Third Circuit Court of Appeals not only affirmed the District Court's dismissal for lack of standing, they found that in light of their precedential opinion in Berg v. Obama, 586 F. 3d 234 - 2009, your appeal was frivolous. What people like me were "out and about arguing" correctly foretold the actual outcome. Turned out we had *understated* our point. You, Mr. Apuzzo, had called our correct predictive analysis "an outright lie", and -- correct me if I'm wrong on this -- you never retracted nor apologized for that.

I could go on. Mr. Apuzzo, as you were composing that story about people like me running red lights and then lying about it to police, family and friends, "and ultimately the judge", did it not dawn on you that I might respond with the factual record? I can cite you lying in a "verified complaint" to a federal court. You signed that complaint and your client, with your advice, swore to it. You are *lucky* that the District Court never reached the merits. As reality is, you just get beaten up on blogs, but if you want to play the imaginary case game, try imagining what would happen in court were President Obama's best AV-rated counsel to go after your claim, "we know that at the time such travel was prohibited to Americans using an U.S. passport".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

You are such a lightweight.

By the way, I am still waiting for you to show us how you get "natural born Citizen" out of "citizen of the United States." Would you care to amuse us.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

H. Brooke Paige asked the Obots on Dr. Conspiracy’s blog why was it necessary for the Constitution to create two categories of “citizens,” the “natural born Citizens” and the “citizens of the United States.” Obot Dave B answered that it was necessary ‘[b]ecause ‘citizens of the United States’ also includes naturalized citizens.”

Now that is a rich answer. So let me understand this logic. We have category A and we have category B because category B also includes category C. This is Obot logic in action. Simply stupendous, isn't it?

Unknown said...

I would like to ask obot unknown what country is obamao a natural born citizen of, the UKC, USA or both?He would have to be both, he is as much a citizen of the UKC as he is of USA and i was wondering what makes him think the GW and company wanted a foreign citizen as CiC? The 14th amendment has nothing to do with a natural born citizen of the US so that proves to me the best a child of a alien could ever be is a citizen of the US even if born in US. I do not think the Founders wouldve automatically granted citizenship to children born in US of alien parents who had low character and i also believe the alien parents not allowed to naturalize wouldve been kicked out of country along with their children. I would not want children raised by foreign terrorists to be given citizenship just because they are born here, what sense does that make?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

I have maintained that under colonial English common law, children born to alien parents in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance and obedience were naturalized at birth to be “natural born subjects.” Such naturalization at birth was done by Lord Coke in Calvin’s Case (1608) and recognized and confirmed by Emer de Vattel in The Law of Nations, Section 214 “Naturalisation,” where he stated: "Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalizes the children of a foreigner," and by English common law Vinerian Professor, Richard Wooddeson (1777–1793), as explained in 1 William Blackstone, Commentaries on the Laws of England, Book I, 373, n.9, 1765 (with notes and additions by Edward Christian, Esq. 1809) (“The late Vinerian professor informs us, that, ‘in this respect there is not any difference between our laws and those of France. In each country, birth confers the right of ‘naturalization.’ 1 Woodd. 386”).

I have also maintained that after July 4, 1776, the United States did not follow this English common law jus soli rule on the national level and therefore did not grant automatic naturalization at birth to children born in the United States to alien parents. Rather, those children would have to go through a different process than just be born in the United States to gain U.S. citizenship at birth or after birth.

I have maintained that American national common law defined a “natural-born citizen” as any child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth and that both this American national common law and early naturalization statutes treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization. This proves that in the eyes of the Founders and Framers, a child born in the United States to alien parents was not a “citizen of the United States” at birth, let alone a “natural born Citizen.”

I have maintained that Minor v. Happersett (1875) confirmed the definition of a “natural-born citizen” as existing under that American national common law and that under that same common law children born in the United States to alien parents were alien born and in need of naturalization.

I have also maintained that this American national common law rule was reflected in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.

Finally, I have maintained that the Fourteenth Amendment, as interpreted and applied by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), made an exception to that common law and statutory rule by including children born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents as born “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States and therefore “citizens of the United States” at birth. In effect, the Fourteenth Amendment rule as established by Wong Kim Ark, for those who were not born in the United States to “citizen” parents, actually reintroduced in the United States naturalization at birth which had existed under the English common law jus soli rule for children born to alien parents in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance and obedience, modified by requiring domiciled and resident parents. A “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment is not to be conflated and confounded with the Founders’ and Framers’ Article II “natural born Citizen” the definition of which Wong Kim Ark did not alter.

Scientist, at Dr. Conspiracy’s blog, says that I am wrong. He wants to see naturalization records of children born in the United States to alien parents before the Fourteenth Amendment. He says that since no such records exist, such children were not naturalized after birth. He concludes that since no such children were ever naturalized after birth, they have always been “natural born Citizens.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Scientist does not understand some basic facts about how our citizenship and naturalization laws that existed prior to the Fourteenth Amendment and Cable Act of 1922 worked. Prior to that law, alien women who married U.S. citizen men automatically became “citizens of the United States” upon their marriage. This was derivative citizenship which did not require any naturalization proceedings by the wife. The marriage certificate itself was proof of U.S. citizenship for the formerly alien spouse. Such formerly alien women who wanted to prove they were U.S. citizens could finally in 1929 obtain a “Certificate of Derivative Citizenship.” But this was not naturalization as we know it today. It was not until after the Cable Act of 1922 that alien women had to go through an individual naturalization process of their own to obtain the status of “citizens of the United States” which produced naturalization records which were their own.

This same rationale applied to children born either in or out of the United States to alien parents. If they were born to alien parents, they automatically became “citizens of the United States” derivatively through their parents’ naturalization. The proof of their U.S. citizenship was their birth certificates and their parents’ naturalization papers. Again their mothers would not have any papers other than the marriage certificate. Children who were born out of the United States who became “citizens of the United States” derivatively through their parents’ naturalization simply entered the U.S. without going through any naturalization process other than providing their birth certificates and proving the naturalization of their parents. And children who were born in the United States to alien parents also automatically became “citizens of the United States” upon the naturalization of their parents and without going through any naturalization process.

So, the simple answer to Scientist’s question about where are the naturalization papers of all these children who were born in the United States to alien parents is that there simply were none because none were needed. Children born in the United States to alien parents automatically became “citizens of the United States” upon the naturalization of their parents. The children did not have to do anything to become so naturalized other than be under 21 years of age and be dwelling in the United States at the time that their parents naturalized. They were naturalized derivatively through their parents which did not generate any “naturalization” records for them.

So, the Obots are wrong again.

Robert said...

Every child, whether a citizen or not, who was born in any major hospital anywhere in the USA, its territories or possessions in 1961, many years prior, and every year since can easily document his citizenship and that of his parents without resorting to forgery. So, why can't Obama?

Obviously, because he can't. He wasn't born here. He was born where he claimed he was born in his biography that he used and published for 14 or so years prior to his entering presidential politics. He was born in the Republic that allowed him Fulbright Scholarships to attend school here. He was born in the nation that granted him a passport allowing him to travel to areas restricted to US citizens. He was born exactly where his grandmother claimed to have witnessed his birth and so testified. Obama was born in Kenya where his legitimate birth documents have been sealed by government order. (Obots: Haven't you ever wondered what it is that Kenya has sealed if Obama was not born there? Do we have some sort of secret arrangement where they keep our birth records, too? Maybe just Hawaii's?)

So, while discussion of Ark and Minor are appropriate for Cruz, Jindal, Rubio, et al, neither applies to Obama. He is completely foreign to this country other than through his mother who was too young at the time of his Kenyan birth to provide him the privilege of US citizenship without naturalization. Just as Obama has stipulated in an extremely rare truthful moment, he was born under British jurisdiction to a British/Kenyan father.

Whatever Obama's citizenship/subjecthood and/or allegiance is now, it's clearly not USA. Our Declaration of Independence and Constitution are obviously repulsive to him.

Just wondering: Can any nation argue a better claim on Obama's allegiance and subject-hood better than the nation within a nation of Islam? If so, please provide documentation - uh, no forgeries, please.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The Obots love to misrepresent what the U.S. Supreme Court analyzed and held in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). They say that the Court spent a great amount of time analyzing the meaning of a “natural born Citizen” and held that Wong was an Article II “natural born Citizen.” The truth of the matter is that, since Wong was born to alien parents and therefore was not a “natural-born citizen” as defined by Minor v. Happersett (1875), i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time the child was born, the Court, in order to determine if Wong could at least be a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment which was passed 81 years after the Constitution was adopted, was compelled to interpret and apply that Amendment and not Article II’s “natural born Citizen.” It, like Minor, said that the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” was not to be found in the Constitution which then already included the Fourteenth Amendment.

As an aid to interpreting and applying that amendment’s “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, it spent a lot of time analyzing what an English “natural born subject” was under colonial English common law, not what an Article II “natural born Citizen” was. It then distinguished a natural born child born in the country to “citizen” parents from a child born in the country to alien parents. But it also concluded that both children were “citizens” by the sole fact of being born in the country. It then held that Wong, being born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents, was born “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States and therefore a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. But it did not hold that he was a “natural born Citizen” under common law which Minor v. Happersett in 1875 said and to which Wong Kim Ark even agreed was the law upon which the Framers relied to define a “natural-born citizen.”

So clearly, if both Minor and Wong Kim Ark agreed that it was the common law upon which the Framers relied which defined a “natural-born citizen,” that common law already existed at the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified, and Wong Kim Ark relied upon the Fourteenth Amendment to determine Wong’s citizenship status and not that common law, Wong Kim Ark could not possibly have analyzed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and found that Wong was a “natural-born citizen.”

MichaelN said...

Jack Maskell's deliberate misleading the Congress with his false definition of "natural born Citizen" must be publicly exposed for the lie that it is, and at the same time the Congress must be put under the spot-light, so they must go public and choose one or the other.

They (the govt.representatives)can save face by throwing Maskell under the bus, but for them to do so we have to give them the true meaning of NBS which they couldn't or dare not deny.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The Obots over at Dr. Conspiracy's blog thread concerning the Paige v. Obama ballot challenge are exploding with rage. They are calling everything under the sun that is anti-Obama racist. There are some sick people there.

MichaelN said...

Fact is that English law has never ruled or held that native-birth sufficed to make a natural born subject..... that's why the Wong Kim Ark court's decision was that Wong was a "child of an alien, if born in the country" and not "the natural born child of a citizen".....

He could only be one or the other.

The SCOTUS majority, particularly Chief Justice Horace Gray, knew there was never any doubt that children who were recognized as "natural born", must be born "under the ligeance of a subject".

The English law is clear on that.

Wong was native-born but lacked being "born under the ligeance of a subject"/US citizen parents, he lacked being "the natural born child of a citizen".

Two options only, i.e. "the child of an alien, if born in the country" or "the natural born child of a citizen".

Therefore Wong must be "the child of an alien, if born in the country", simply because he was not "the natural born child of a citizen"......... Wong could only be one or the other, and we knew what he wasn't..

There's no way that Horace Gray would have cited English law, then ignore it's established settled law principles.

The English rule was clear, that native-birth did not suffice to make a natural born subject and it was clear that any person, native-born to non-subjects "is no subject" because "he was not born under the ligeance of a subject"

If it were true that the Framers entertained the English rule, then for a US native-born child to be a natural born citizen, the child would by necessity have to be "born under the ligeance of a subject"/citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of III

The confusion with understanding U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1875) rests with the Court’s interpretation and application of the Fourteenth Amendment’s “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause. We have to understand that the only thing that the Court did was interpret and apply the Fourteenth Amendment’s “citizen of the United States” type of “citizen.” To accomplish that, the Court interpreted and applied the amendment’s “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause. As an aid to doing that, it relied upon the colonial English common law. But none of that has anything to do with changing the definition of an Article II “natural born Citizen,” which has always been defined under American national common law and has never depended upon any “jurisdiction” analysis.

To understand what Wong Kim Ark did we have to understand some basic points:

-Article I, Section 2 and 3, and Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 contain “natural born Citizen” and “Citizen of the United States.” Anyone born prior to the adoption of the Constitution could be a “Citizen of the United States” and not be disqualified from being President and Commander in Chief of the Military. But because of the unique, singular and all-powerful civil and military Office of the President and Commander in Chief of the Military, which carry with them the need for the highest allegiance to the people of the United States (requiring from birth legal, political, and military allegiance only to the people of the United States), and the desire of the Founders and Framers to preserve the new constitutional republic for Posterity, a “Citizen of the United States” who is born after the adoption of the Constitution, is disqualified from holding that high office. Indeed, for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, only the “natural born Citizens” may be future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military. The Twelfth Amendment, ratified on June 15, 1804, reaffirmed the critical constitutional importance of the “natural born Citizen” clause when it comes to the highly sensitive constitutional offices of the President and Commander in Chief of the Military, and also requires Vice-Presidents (who stand next in line to become President) to be “natural born Citizens.” Hence, there is absolutely no doubt that “natural born Citizen” and “Citizen of the United States” have a separate and distinct constitutional meaning.

-When the Framers drafted the Constitution, the definition of a “natural born Citizen” came from common law which we know could not be English common law because the definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). With this definition, that common law could only be American national common law which on citizenship and other international matters was based on the law of nations. Since this was the definition of a “natural born Citizen” used by the Framers, this is the Constitutional definition of a “natural born Citizen” which is the supreme law of the law and which can be changed only by constitutional amendment. Being part of the supreme law of the land, it cannot be later changed by application of Congressional Acts, the colonial English common law, or the law of any state which are all trumped by the Constitution.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

-Congress never defined by statute what persons born in the United States were “natural born Citizens.” It did from 1790 until 1795 use the clause “natural born citizen” to describe the status that it bestowed through the Naturalization Act of 1790 (an act under its naturalization powers) upon a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents. But Congress since 1795, when it passed the Naturalization Act of 1795, which repealed its 1790 Act, never again used the clause “natural born citizen” in any of its laws, including in its drafting of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, always leaving it up to the Constitution, i.e., American national common law to define the term. In fact, after 1795, Congress has never again mentioned the “natural born Citizen” clause in any of its Acts. Also, Congress through the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 always treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization. This treatment of children born in the United States reconfirmed the American national common law definition of a “natural-born citizen.”

-Neither the Constitution nor any Act of Congress ever recognized any person present in the United States who was an alien as “not subject to any foreign power.” Congress’s naturalization acts (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855) confirmed this.

-The Civil Rights Act of 1866 granted the status of a “citizen of the United States” to children born in the United States, provided they were “not subject to any foreign power” and not Indians not taxed.

-The Fourteenth Amendment was passed to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act. It did not repeal or amend the “natural born Citizen” clause. The Fourteenth Amendment text defines a “citizen of the United States” at birth, not a “natural born Citizen.” Also, rather than making any reference to the citizenship of parents, which was also implicated under the Civil Right Act’s “not subject to any foreign power,” the amendment uses the more liberal “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause.

-The U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1872) said in dicta that a child born in the United States to alien parents, being born subject to a foreign power, was excluded from the “subject to the jurisdiction” clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and therefore not a “citizen of the United States” thereunder. Minor in 1875 then confirmed that there were doubts whether such a child was a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment.

-The Slaughterhouse Cases” dicta and the doubts confirmed by Minor were addressed by Wong Kim Ark in 1898. Using the colonial English common law as an aid to interpret the clause, Wong Kim Ark construed the “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause to mean only subject to the laws of the United States and not also subject to its political and military jurisdiction. This interpretation does not require that either the U.S.-born child or his or her parents not be “subject to any foreign power.” Such a looser interpretation allows for dual allegiances at birth which is prohibited by the Constitution as it involves the “natural born Citizen” clause and the highly sensitive Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

-Wong Kim Ark’s reliance upon the English common law and its “natural born subject” is also not to be interpreted to mean that the “natural born Citizen” clause is to be defined under that law and form of subjecthood. While the states selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by their state legislatures, we know that the Constitution never adopted the English common law as part of Article III’s “Laws of the United States.” We also already saw that the Constitution rests upon American national common law for purpose of defining a “natural born Citizen.” Moreover, the English common law, through naturalization at birth, considered a child born in the King’s dominion to friendly alien parents, even though born “subject to a foreign power,” as a “natural born subject.” Again, the Founders and Framers did not consider a “natural born Citizen” as needing any type of naturalization, for he or she was not born “subject to any foreign power.”

-Simply stated, all persons who are U.S. “citizens” and who are not “natural born Citizens” are “Citizens of the United States” either at birth or after birth. Concerning the at birth “citizens” who are not “natural born Citizens,” these persons, while recognized as U.S. “citizens” at birth, are born “subject to a foreign power” and therefore are not born with sole legal, political, and military allegiance to the United States. They cannot be “natural born Citizens.”

-Again simply stated, being born “subject to a foreign power” (with alienage), all “Citizens of the United States,” not being “natural born Citizens,” are either (1) per Wong Kim Ark and under the colonial English common law naturalized at birth by the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress, acquiring birthright citizenship automatically by birth in the country or by birth out of the country to one or two U.S. “citizen” parents, or (2) naturalized after birth by Act of Congress or treaty, by birth out of the country to alien parents and acquiring U.S. citizenship after birth through formal naturalization process or treaty.

-And finally, a “natural born Citizen,” being born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth, does not require either the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress for that birthright status. That type of “citizen” is not born “subject to any foreign power” and therefore does not need any type of naturalization. It is only that “citizen” who is born within the sole legal, political, and military allegiance of the people of the United States and who is therefore eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

MichaelN said...

In the case of Obama.

Lord Coke - Calvin's case....

"and so in case of an alien born, you must of necessity have two several ligeances"

According to English law, Obama was alien born.

MichaelN said...

I started this thread.....

"English Law Required a Subject Father to Make a Natural Born Subject"

at.....


http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/1852505-english-law-required-subject-father-make-8.html

js said...

English Common Law also required that all subjects were Christians. ANY non-Christians were considered enemies.

"The English common law was absolutely Christian, and their entire system of Government was based upon their unique view of natural law being issued directly from Jesus Christ as enforced by the English monarch....The English common law is in direct polar opposition to our Constitution, in that infidels were considered enemies of the state. In Calvin’s Case, which is universally recognized as having established the English common law with regard to the jus soli rule, the decision makes it perfectly clear that the English common law presumed infidels would never be converted to Christianity, and it specifically states that they are subjects of devils. Hence, one could be born on English soil, in the King’s castle even, to parents who loved the King, but if the parents weren’t Christian, they could not be natural-born subjects Instead, they were considered enemies of the King, because they refused to believe that the King was God’s monarch on Earth. "
(ref; Leo Donofrio)

Anonymous said...

MichaelN wrote:
Lord Coke - Calvin's case....

"and so in case of an alien born, you must of necessity have two several ligeances"
According to English law, Obama was alien born.
Obamunists rely on Calvin to support their heresy, and it in fact shoots them down. How fitting. Two ligeances means two nationalities and debts of allegiance to two monarchs.
Seems that the three-monkies media can't see the alien-born Obama for what he really is.

Read the extensive new exposition I just posted at http://obama--nation.com
The Law of Ascension & American Presidents;

The Marie Antoinette Electorate
& Their Cake President

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2013/05/02/the-royal-law-of-ascension/

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Here is a comment that I left for Bob Quasisus at his blog, Cafe Con Leche Republicans, http://cafeconlecherepublicans.com/is-ted-cruz-a-natural-born-citizen?replytocom=20106#respond , where he argues that Ted Cruz is a "natural born Citizen."

Only the unique and singular all-powerful constitutional civil and military office of the President and Commander in Chief, which carries with it a requirement of the highest allegiance of any other constitutional office, requires that today any person wanting to occupy those offices be an Article II “natural born Citizen,” and not just a “citizen of the United States.” Having to be a “natural born Citizen” means one cannot be alien born and in need of naturalization. At common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution, the only child that was not alien born and in need of naturalization at birth or after birth was a child born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875) (confirmed this American common law definition of a “natural-born citizen” and said that any other person who did not meet this common law definition was born an “alien or foreigner”). See also U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (using the colonial English common law, which naturalized at birth the children of a foreigner born in the King’s dominion to friendly, non-diplomatic alien parents to be a “natural born subject,” held Wong to be a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment [not to be conflated and confounded with a “natural born Citizen”], and also found that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents are subject to the naturalization powers of Congress and under that power are by a naturalization act of Congress naturalized at birth to be “citizens of the United States” at birth). This American common law definition of a “natural-born citizen” became the supreme law of the land when the people ratified the Constitution and has never been amended or altered, including by the Fourteenth Amendment which only defines a “citizen of the United States” and Wong Kim Ark which interpreted and applied that amendment.

Ted Cruz does not satisfy the constitutional common law definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Ted Cruz was not born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of his birth. Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and a Cuban father. Being born in a foreign country and to a non-U.S. citizen father, he was born with alienage (a jus soli citizen of and allegiance to Canada at birth and a jus sanguinis citizen of and allegiance to Cuba at birth) and therefore alien born and in need of naturalization. Minor. He was not born a U.S. citizen under American common law, but rather an Act of the U.S. Congress naturalized him at birth to be a “citizen of the United States” at birth. Wong Kim Ark. But being alien born and naturalized at birth by an Act of Congress, and therefore lacking sole legal, political, and military allegiance to the United State from birth, which is what the Constitution requires of all future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military, he is not nor can he be a “natural born Citizen.” Minor; Wong Kim Ark.

Anonymous said...

js, thanks for that posts, I've never seen that shared before. I thought there was little ammo left to be found in favor of the truth, but that is a freaking keg of dynamite.
Even the Divine Right of Kings had its standards and rejects. So much for universal jus soli natural subjects. Calling everyone that was always simply a fiction of law, not reality.
My bet is that the founders were pretty well ensconced in reality, and not fiction. A Nash

js said...

http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2012/01/24/the-english-common-law-definition-of-natural-law-is-not-part-of-the-law-of-nations/

Leo isn't active anymore but his web site is still up.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"By the way, I am still waiting for you to show us how you get 'natural born Citizen' out of 'citizen of the United States.' Would you care to amuse us."

Not sure what you are looking for there. The consensus of legal scholars is that the natural-born United States citizens are exactly the citizens of the United States that obtained their U.S. citizenship at the moment they were born. As close as I can get to answering your question is to say that I get 'natural born Citizen' out of 'citizen of the United States' by the acquisition of U.S. citizenship upon birth. I've explained that over-and-over before, and a breakthrough this time strikes me as unlikely. I suspect your question, Mr. Apuzzo, was actually just incoherent crank nonsense.

A better question would be how do you *avoid* getting 'natural-born citizen' from where ALJ Masin cited it in your own case: "All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. [...]" United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. (1898), quoting United States v. Rhodes, 1 Abbott, US 28 (Cir. Ct. Ky 1866).

MichaelN said...

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"By the way, I am still waiting for you to show us how you get 'natural born Citizen' out of 'citizen of the United States.' Would you care to amuse us."

"Not sure what you are looking for there. The consensus of legal scholars is that the natural-born United States citizens are exactly the citizens of the United States that obtained their U.S. citizenship at the moment they were born."
................

Let's fix it for you.

A consensus of SOME people say that.

The fact is that the majority decision of the SCOTUS held that the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be natural born citizens, but the 14th Amendment DOES say that people who are native-born in the US are citizens of the US.

Therefore the 14th Amendment says that people born in the US are native-born citizens of the US but are not natural born citizens.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

I of II

You said:

“Not sure what you are looking for there. The consensus of legal scholars is that the natural-born United States citizens are exactly the citizens of the United States that obtained their U.S. citizenship at the moment they were born. As close as I can get to answering your question is to say that I get 'natural born Citizen' out of 'citizen of the United States' by the acquisition of U.S. citizenship upon birth. I've explained that over-and-over before, and a breakthrough this time strikes me as unlikely. I suspect your question, Mr. Apuzzo, was actually just incoherent crank nonsense.”

I will answer your comment in two parts. Here is the first.

You argue that any “citizen of the United States” who acquires that status from the moment of birth is a “natural born Citizen.” You are simply repeating what some of our “constitutional scholars” have said on this subject, including Attorney Jack Maskell who wrote the CRS Memo in November 14, 2011. As I have previously explained on this blog, what you and these scholars fail to understand is that your argument is a classic fallacy, for it violates the rule of the undistributed middle. Here is what the fallacious argument looks like when broken down into its premises and conclusion:

-All Article II “natural born Citizens” are “citizens at birth.”

-All “citizens of the United States” “at birth” or “from birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment or Congressional Acts are “citizens at birth.”

-Therefore, all “citizens of the United States” “at birth” or “from birth” are Article II “natural born Citizens.”

From this you add that since Obama is a “citizen of the United States” “at birth’ or “from birth,” he must be an Article II “natural born Citizen.” But the conclusion does not follow from these two premises in the example above. The conclusion is false which makes the argument invalid. Since that conclusion is invalid, so is the conclusion that because Obama is a “citizen of the United States” “at birth” or “from birth,” he is necessarily a “natural born Citizen.” Consider this other argument which has the same logical form as your argument to see the invalidity of both of your conclusions:

-All humans have a heart.

-All dogs have a heart.

-Therefore, all dogs are human.

Here you can see clearly how fallacious your argument is. This conclusion is clearly false. We have arrived at a false conclusion because the logical form of the argument is incorrect. So like the first example, this argument is also invalid.

a. The fact that both humans and dogs share a common trait (having a heart) does not logically support the conclusion that the species are equivalent. Hence, the fact that a “natural born Citizen” and a “citizen of the United States” “at birth” or “from birth” are both “citizens at birth” does not logically support the conclusion that the two classes of “citizens” are equivalent.

b. You fail to provide any historical or legal evidence that all persons who are “citizens at birth” or “citizens from birth” are necessarily “natural born Citizens.”

c. You fail to provide us with any constitutional definition which our nation ever adopted which defines a “natural born Citizen” to be simply any person who is a “citizen at birth” or “citizen from birth.”

d. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained that a “natural-born citizen” is defined by common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. Relying upon that common law, which could only be American national common law (which had its basis in the law of nations) and not

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

e. The only way that a “citizen of the United States” “at birth” or “from birth” can be considered a “natural born Citizen” is if that class of “citizen” meets all the necessary and sufficient conditions of the definition of a “natural born Citizen,” not just one of its necessary conditions which in our example is being born a “citizen at birth.” Using my human/dog example, the only way something can be said to be human is if it has all the necessary and sufficient elements which go to define a human. Just having a heart, while necessary, is not sufficient to satisfy that definition. So it is plainly wrong to conclude that since Boxer is a dog, Boxer must necessarily be human or that since Obama is a “citizen of the United States” “at birth” or “from birth,” Obama must necessarily be a “natural born Citizen.”

f. Maskell’s “citizen at birth” argument also produces the following two corollaries which are also logically invalid. Here is the first corollary:

-All “natural born citizens” are “citizens at birth.”

-No “naturalized citizen” is a “natural born Citizen.”

-Therefore, no “naturalized citizen” is a “citizen at birth.”

Maskell wants us to conclude from this argument that since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is not a “naturalized citizen.” And since he is not a “naturalized citizen,” he must be a “natural born Citizen.” The conclusion above (No “naturalized citizen” is a “citizen at birth”) does not logically follow from the two premises, making the argument invalid. There is no way that we can say that a “naturalized citizen” cannot be a “citizen at birth” unless we first define what a “citizen at birth” is. Without a definition of this term, we simply cannot include or exclude a “naturalized citizen” from it. But Maskell does not give us any constitutional or statutory definition of a “citizen at birth.” Without that definition, his conclusion that a “naturalized citizen” is not a “citizen at birth” is simply invalid.

Here is the second corollary:

-No “natural born Citizen” is a “naturalized citizen.”

-Obama is not a “naturalized citizen.”

-Therefore, Obama is a “natural born Citizen.”

Maskell’s argument here is that because Obama is not a “naturalized citizen,” he must be a “natural born Citizen.” Basic logic dictates that we cannot have an affirmative conclusion (Obama is . . . ) when one of the argument’s premises is negative (Obama is not . . . ). We do not prove the existence of something by proving that something else does not exist. We simply cannot logically conclude that Obama is a “natural born Citizen” only because he is not a “naturalized citizen.”

So, as we can clearly see, you and Jack Maskell’s “citizen at birth” or “citizen from birth” is no constitutional definition of a “natural born Citizen” and produces nothing but fallacious and invalid arguments. In short, the Maskell arguments prove nothing and lead only to constitutional error.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here you can see clearly how fallacious your argument is."

That argument was yours, Mr. Apuzzo, not mine. Here's why I think "natural born" means from birth:

"'Natural-born British subject' means a British subject who has become a British subject at the moment of his birth." United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 657 (1898), quoting A. V. Dicey.

The quoted statement is not merely that natural-born subjects are subjects from birth. It is a definition. It says that natural-born subject *means* subject from birth.

Now consider a statement that you, Mr. Apuzzo, try to pass off as a definition. Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), says all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens are natural-born citizens. Does it say that *only* children born in a country of parents who were its citizens are natural-born citizens? It does not. Does it say that natural-born citizen *means* born in a country of parents who were its citizens? It does not.

Mr. Apuzzo, you cannot wish Minor v. Happersett into saying what it does not. You cannot wish U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark into not saying what it does. You can to write your essays and file your cases, but your arguments fall apart when the judges actually read the precedents.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

I of VI

You attempt to refute my argument by presenting what you contend is support for your position that the definition of a “natural born Citizen” is any person who is a “citizen at birth” or “citizen from birth.”

So you want a statement by A. V. Dicey made by him in 1896 in which he stated what a “natural-born subject” “means” to be authoritative on the question of what was the 1787 constitutional definition of an Article II “natural born Citizen.”
The Dicey statement is found in Wong Kim Ark wherein Justice Gray said the following about Dicey:

“Mr. Dicey, in his careful and thoughtful Digest of the Law of England with reference to the Conflict of Laws, published in 1896, states the following propositions, his principal rules being printed below in italics:
‘British subject’ means any person who owes permanent allegiance to the Crown. ‘Permanent’ allegiance is used to distinguish the allegiance of a British subject from the allegiance of an alien who, because he is within the British dominions, owes ‘temporary’ allegiance to the Crown. ‘Natural-born British subject’ means a British subject who has become a British subject at the moment of his birth.’ ‘Subject to the exceptions hereinafter mentioned, any person who (whatever the nationality of his parents) is born within the British dominions is a natural-born British subject. This rule contains the leading principle of English law on the subject of British nationality.” [sic with no final closing quote of what Dicey wrote]
The exceptions afterwards mentioned by Mr. Dicey are only these two:

‘1. Any person who (his father being an alien enemy) is born in a part of the British dominions, which at the time of such [p658] person’s birth is in hostile occupation, is an alien.

2. Any person whose father (being an alien) is at the time of such person’s birth an ambassador or other diplomatic agent accredited to the Crown by the Sovereign of a foreign State is (though born within the British dominions) an alien.’

And he adds:

‘The exceptional and unimportant instances in which birth within the British dominions does not of itself confer British nationality are due to the fact that, though at common law nationality or allegiance in substance depended on the place of a person’s birth, it in theory, at least, depended not upon the locality of a man’s birth, but upon his being born within the jurisdiction and allegiance of the King of England, and it might occasionally happen that a person was born within the dominions without being born within the allegiance, or, in other words, under the protection and control of, the Crown.’

Dicey Conflict of Laws, pp. 173-177, 741.

It thus clearly appears that, by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the Crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, the jurisdiction of the English Sovereign, and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign State or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born.”

Wong Kim Ark, at 657-58. There are many problems with using Dicey’s definition of a “natural-born subject” to prove the meaning that the Founders and Framers gave to an Article II “natural born subject.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of VI

1. You have taken the Dicey and Wong Kim Ark statements out of context. Dicey applied his statement only to an English “natural-born subject,” not to an Article II “natural born Citizen.” Justice Gray used that definition of a “natural-born subject” only as an aid in interpreting and applying the Fourteenth Amendment’s “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, not to define an Article II “natural born Citizen.” Before finding and analyzing the English common law, Justice Gray first cited and quoted Minor and its common law definition of the “natural-born citizen” clause, stating:

"Allegiance and protection are, in this connection" (that is, in relation to citizenship),

‘reciprocal obligations. The one is a compensation for the other: allegiance for protection, and protection for allegiance. . . . At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of [p680] parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class, there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.’

Minor v. Happersett (1874), 21 Wall. 162, 166-168. The decision in that case was that a woman born of citizen parents within the United States was a citizen of the United States, although not entitled to vote, the right to the elective franchise not being essential to citizenship.”

Wong Kim Ark, at 679-80.

We know from Minor that the Court did not only find Virginia Minor’s birth circumstances as entitling her to be as Justice Gray said a “citizen of the United States,” but also a “natural-born citizen.” We also know that Minor left open the question of what was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment, which question Wong Kim Ark did address. We can see that when it came to defining a “natural-born citizen,” “within the allegiance” meant being born in the country to parents who were its “citizens.” Justice Gray did not criticize that definition of “within the allegiance.” And he did not have to because he was not looking to find that Wong was a “natural born Citizen.” Rather, he had to find that he was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment which in the final analysis Justice Gray informed carried a different allegiance standard.

Hence, “within the allegiance” as it applied to define the “natural born Citizens” did not mean as Justice Gray eventually found just born subject to the laws of the United States, which was the standard that he applied to one wanting to demonstrate that one was born “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States and therefore a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment.

Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark defined what “born in the allegiance of the United States” meant in connection with defining the Fourteenth Amendment’s “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause and its “citizen of the United States” at birth. But Justice Gray did not define what “born in the allegiance of the United States” meant as it pertains to defining a “natural born Citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of VI

Hence, it is error to take what Justice Gray said about what it meant to be a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment and use it as though he were defining an Article II “natural born Citizen.” He simply did no such thing. On the contrary, he distinguished a “child of an alien, if born in the country” from “the natural born child of a citizen,” finding both to be, under the English common law jus soli rule, “citizens” by the force of being born in the country, but which shows that only the latter was a “natural-born citizen.” Id. at 665. So, the holdings and rationales of Minor and Wong Kim Ark demonstrate that there are different mechanisms at work for creating a “natural born Citizen” and a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. The mechanism for creating a “natural born Citizen” is birth in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. Under this mechanism, the child is born within the sole allegiance of the United States. In contrast, the mechanism for creating a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment is birth in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” which, since that clause has been interpreted to mean only being subject to the laws of the United States, allows children to be born in the United States to one or two alien parents which results in dual and conflicting allegiances that are not allowed for one needing to be a “natural born Citizen” so as to be eligible for the Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

2. Dicey made his statement in his book, Conflict of Laws, which was published in 1896, which is much after 1787. He was not around to know what the public common understanding of a “natural born citizen” was in 1787. In his work, he does not cite to any authorities of the founding period who explained what the definition of an American “natural born Citizen” was at that time. On the contrary, his work, which came just 28 years after the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment could be used as an aid in interpreting and applying that amendment which is what Justice Gray actually did.

3. Dicey defined a “natural-born subject,” not a “natural born Citizen.” The two clauses, which obtained their origins in different laws, are not the same thing. In looking for the law that defined a U.S. “citizen” and “natural born Citizen,” Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F.Cass. 785 (1866) said that the English common law did not define those clauses. He said:

“The constitution uses the words 'citizen' and 'natural born citizens;' but neither that instrument nor any act of congress has attempted to define their meaning. British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject . . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject.” Id. at 788.

We can see that the court said that while there had been other instances in which English jurisprudence served as the basis for American jurisprudence, that law provided no help when it came to defining either a “citizen” or a “natural born Citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of VI

4. Dicey is an English authority, not an American one. Dicey wrote on the English common law, not the American common law, which as we saw in Point No. 3 above did not define either a “citizen” or a “natural born Citizen.” If you want to read works of someone who wrote on the American common law, then read those of St. George Tucker, who is considered America’s Blackstone. “[T]he examination of a variety of legal and other sources to determine the public understanding of a legal text in the period after its enactment or ratification. . . is a critical tool of constitutional interpretation. District of Columbia v. Heller (2008) (emphasis in the original). In this regard, the Court said that St. George Tucker was an “important founding-era legal scholar[]” to who it would look to determine what “public understanding” was on the issue in question, i.e., whether the Second Amendment protected individual right unconnected with militia service.

Tucker showed how the English common law did not apply to defining a “natural born citizen.” Let us examine what St. George Tucker said regarding a "natural born Citizen:"

“3. Civil rights, taken in a strict and confined sense, as contradistinguished from natural and social rights, are such as appertain to a man as a citizen or subject, of this, or that, particular state or country; in his private and individual capacity as a free agent, and member of the body politic or state, in respect to the state or body politic; and contradistinguished from such as might be due to him as a magistrate, legislator, judge, or other public agent, character, or functionary. The right of electing, and being elected to, any public office or trust, may be considered as among the most important of these rights.

These civil rights may be inherited, or acquired, in the United States: they are acquired by a foreigner who is naturalized; they are inherited by all whose parents, at the time of their birth, were citizens.

***

Persons naturalized according to these acts, are entitled to all the rights of natural born citizens, except, first, that they cannot be elected as representatives in congress until seven years, thereafter. Secondly, nor can they be elected senators of the United States, until nine years thereafter. Thirdly, they are forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States. Persons naturalized before the adoption of the constitution, it is presumed, have all the capacities of natural born citizens. See C. U. S. Art. 1, 2.”

See St. George Tucker, Blackstone’s Commentaries Volume 2, Book 1, Chapter 1 (1803) http://constitution.org/tb/tb2.htm .

So there you have it. Any child who was not born to “citizen” parents had to be naturalized in order to be a “citizen.” Any child who became a “citizen” and who was not born to “citizen” “parents” was a “naturalized” “citizen” and not a “natural born Citizen.” As a “naturalized” “citizen,” he or she was “forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States.” Hence, only if one was born to “citizen” “parents” could one be considered a “natural born Citizen” and therefore possessing the “civil right” to be elected President. So, satisfying the 1866 definition of a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment or that of Wong Kim Ark in 1898 does not make one a “natural born Citizen.” Rather, satisfying the 1787 definition of a “natural-born citizen” under Minor does.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

V of VI

5. Dicey explained that under the English common law place of birth was not the true test of being born a “natural-born subject.” Rather it was not only being born in the King’s dominion, but also being born “within the allegiance, or, in other words, under the protection and control of, the Crown.” England and the United States had two totally different views on what it meant to be in the allegiance of the nation. The English King considered non-diplomatic aliens in amity to be his “subjects” and as owing him allegiance, although only local and temporary. This was a notion of broad allegiance. But in the United States, an alien present in its territory could not become a “citizen” until he or she formally naturalized and by so doing swore off all foreign allegiances. Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120 (1830), had long established that with the American Revolution with England and with the new nation and society coming into existence, the English common law’s “broad doctrine of allegiance” and denial of “the right of expatriation” no longer applied in the United States. Even Justice Story in Shanks, decided right after Inglis, told us that children in America followed the citizenship of their parents. This new reality had already been confirmed by early Congress which passed the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802 (and 1855), which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization. The stringent test of allegiance only to the United States was again confirmed by Congress in 1866 when it passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866, in which it declared that a child born in the United States was a “citizen of the United States,” provided the child was born “not subject to any foreign power.” In Wong Kim Ark, Justice Gray loosened the strict rule of allegiance which allowed for allegiance only to the United States, finding that “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” only meant subject to its laws and thereby created a new form of birthright citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment, which is not to be conflated and confounded with an Article II “natural born Citizen,” which since that birth status applied to the unique singular and all-powerful constitutional civil and military Offices of President and Commander in Chief, always required the utmost degree of allegiance which was allegiance only to the United States from birth.

6. Minor did give us a definition of a “natural-born citizen.” Your point about it not using the word “only” when it defined a “natural-born citizen” is meritless given the historical record, prior case law, and the totality of what Minor said. The Court explained:

“At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

First, the Court was tasked with determining whether Virginia Minor was a “citizen.” Hence, it would have looked for any definition of the term and then applied that definition to Virginia. If there was some other definition of a “natural-born citizen” at common law, the Court would have stated it. And if the English common law, with its looser definition of a “natural-born subject, provided any such definition, it surely would have told us about it.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

VI of VI

Second, the statement that Minor gave about what a “natural-born citizen” was is a paraphrase of Vattel’s definition of a “natural-born citizen” in Section 212 of The Law of Nations. That same definition was accepted by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (relies on Vattel’s definition of “natives, or indigenes” which the English translator of Vattel’s The Law of Nations in the 1797 English edition changed from “indigenes” to “natural-born citizens”); Justice Daniels in Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. (19 How.) 393 (1856) (cites and quotes Vattel’s definition of a “natural-born citizen”); and some lower courts (Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879) (cites and quotes Vattel’s definition of a “natural-born citizen”); United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890) (cites and quotes Vattel’s definition of a “natural-born citizen”)). Our courts have never recognized any other definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Hence, this is the one and only definition of a “natural born Citizen.”

Third, the word “only” is clearly implied in Minor’s description of a “natural-born citizen.” It said that at common law, children who were not “born in a country of parents who were its citizens” were “aliens or foreigners.” It can only follow from that statement that such children did not “became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also” and that they could not be “natives, or natural-born citizens.” So, read in its entire context, including considering the previous sources which had specifically defined a “natural-born citizen” in the same manner, Minor’s statement as to who were the “natural-born citizens” informs that only those who were born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” were the “natural-born citizens.” There is therefore no doubt that this statement about a “natural-born citizen” by Minor is a definition of that very clause.

So, Unknown, you have failed again.






Ed said...

I am neither a lawyer nor an expert on the Constitution, but I am a veteran of many debates with the Left. Therefore, I can definitely assert that when the opposition's argument descends to name calling and snide dismissals, they have lost! The reason they resort to such debased tactics is that they realize their argument is weak and unpersuasive. And they have no other recourse than the equivalent of "Yeah, and so's your old man!

Comparing the scholarly argument of Apuzzo with the coarseness of "Fogbow Foggy's" provides a clear indication of Apuzzo's victory in that debate.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You attempt to refute my argument by presenting what you contend is support [...]"

No, I dismissed it with the sentence, "That argument was yours, Mr. Apuzzo, not mine." I did not, nor did Jack Maskell, put forth what you attributed to us.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You argue that any 'citizen of the United States' who acquires that status from the moment of birth is a 'natural born Citizen.' You are simply repeating what some of our 'constitutional scholars' have said on this subject, including Attorney Jack Maskell who wrote the CRS Memo in November 14, 2011."

Mr. Apuzzo, when I simply repeat something our constitutional scholars have said, I cite them. The quote I presented as my justification for "natural born" meaning from birth does not appear in Maskell's report.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You have taken the Dicey and Wong Kim Ark statements out of context. Dicey applied his statement only to an English 'natural-born subject,' not to an Article II 'natural born Citizen.''

Your idea that "natural born" means something different when applied to "subject" than when applied to "citizen" is laughable on its face. Even so, if you need more context to refute that idea, there's plenty in Wong:

"The term `citizen,' as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term `subject' in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government." At 664, quoting State v. Manuel (1838).

"Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives; and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land." At 665, quoting 2 Kent Com. 258.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The only way that a 'citizen of the United States' 'at birth' or 'from birth' can be considered a 'natural born Citizen' is if that class of 'citizen' meets all the necessary and sufficient conditions of the definition of a 'natural born Citizen,' not just one of its necessary conditions which in our example is being born a 'citizen at birth.'"

Already refuted. Note the word "means" in: "'Natural-born British subject' means a British subject who has become a British subject at the moment of his birth." Wong at 657, quoting Dicey. Are you familiar with the word? Do you need to look it up? Does it denote one necessary criterion possibility among several?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Hence, it is error to take what Justice Gray said about what it meant to be a 'citizen of the United States' at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment and use it as though he were defining an Article II 'natural born Citizen.' He simply did no such thing."

You got this bit quoted to you in your own case. "All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. [...]" United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. (1898), quoting United States v. Rhodes.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Dicey is an English authority, not an American one."

The authority is the United States Supreme Court, not Dicey, and not really even Gray. You've said Gray had no support for some things he wrote. He had the support that matters: A majority of the justices concurred. Unless and until reversed, a decision of the Supreme Court *is* common law in the United States.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Third, the word 'only' is clearly implied in Minor’s description of a 'natural-born citizen.'"

Implied by your desperate need to deny the Barack Obama presidency. The courts were not fooled.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"There are some sick people there."

Ed wrote:
"Comparing the scholarly argument of Apuzzo with the coarseness of 'Fogbow Foggy's' provides a clear indication of Apuzzo's victory in that debate."

You guys are a hoot. Check out Teo Bear's hypothesis, that got through Mr. Apuzzo's moderation to appear above, that my "left hand is in a cast, thereby preventing [...]".

Yet somehow, it's always those people over there that are sick and course. You guys are a hoot.

Teo Bear said...

Unk,

That's not a hypothesis, that is a fact! The majority of Americans polled do not have absolute certainty where Obama was born, and you are pi$$ing on our legs, swearing to us it is raining. And like a good little Obot you are trying to sell us a useless umbrella with holes in it. If anyone is throwing hypothesis' around here it is you. But I guess without your brain-farts you would have nothing to amuse us with.

Always with love and admiration

Teo T Bear

MichaelN said...

In English common law "born in the allegiance" aka "born under the ligeance of a subject" was with regard to the parents' allegiance, it had nothing to do with the child.

Robert said...

There are absolutely no Americans who know for certain where Obama was born. If there was even one, he would have certainly presented documentation by now.

And, in regard to the Obots posting here and on other blogs, there is no argument that can be made that they are also ignorant of the truth. Yes, for some unimaginably insane and self destructive reason they have been convinced that they must defend Obama. But, they are clearly not stupid; just grossly misdirected or simply not on the side of our Constitutional Republic.

Unfortunately for them they have been relegated to the process of shoveling fresh manure over old in the hopes that they can hide the smell. They have nothing else.

No hospital in Hawaii or Kenya has ever produced any verifiable documentation that Obama or his mother were ever admitted to their facilities. Neither have they ever produced any documentation showing that Jr. was born while under their care.

Neither the Kenyan or Hawaiian government has ever produced even a single document that supports Obama's birth within their jurisdiction. Kenya says they have sealed Obama's documents and Hawaii says (in a manner that places them in direct conflict with there own laws) they have Obama's documents but can't show them.

All of the documents produced by Obama and his enablers have been proven to be forgeries.

And, to further compound the difficulties of the traitorous fools supporting the Obama insurrection against our Constitutional Republic, there is not a single Supreme Court case or historical reference to support that a natural born citizen is anything other than one born in the country to two citizen parents. There is not even one Supreme Court case that allows for legitimate confusion of this definition. All lower court cases that have failed to support this definition have resorted to ridiculously shallow legal gymnastics and word twisting more suited to river boat con men.

So, only the extreme partisan hack politicians, the completely uniformed, the idiots and the traitors accept Obama as a legitimate president.

I never will. Instead, because it is necessary for the security of our free state, I will seek, and am actively pursuing through legal and just means the course of actions necessary to have the usurper Obama and all of his treasonous enablers removed from our Oval Office and all halls of government. My effort will not desist until the entirety of Obama's fraudulent presidency declared null and void and his cohorts in treason/insurrection are brought to justice.

Anonymous said...

"All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. [...]"
United States v. Rhodes.

"in the allegiance of" has no connection to territory, land or borders. It actually refers to being born into obedience as an inherited obligation, one inherited from one's father, along with his name, his station in life, and his nationality.

Every child of a subject and citizen inherits certain latent obligations and responsibilities. They, like a pupa that becomes a butterfly, come to fruition at adulthood, and then the allegiance into and under which one was born 18 years prior matures into formal and legal obligations and responsibilities, first and foremost of which is the defense of the nation.
If one is born of one who has no connection to the people and country and nation where birth occurs, then that latent responsibility is non-existent because the parents have no bond of allegiance and association with that society and government.

I speak of non-immigrant aliens of any and every sort without exception, -whether foreign diplomats, invaders, visitors, laborers, or students. They are under no obligation to the government of the nation in which they are temporary guests by permission.

But those who are permanent members of society and not just transients of various sorts, are under obligation to the society and nation which has accepted them as new members.

That obligation is manifested in the requirement that all of them who are male and between 18 and 25 must register with Selective Service. That is true even if not native-born because they are under the obedience of parents who are subject to America's full political authority since they are new members of the nation, albeit not full-fledged members since they are not citizens.

Anonymous said...

NEW! BORN to OBEY VS OATHS OF ALLEGIANCE ~ ~ The Origin of Nationality in Oaths, Obedience, Allegiance, and Action

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2013/05/08/the-origin-of-nationality/

The Truth about Vattel, Presidents, Citizens & Subjects

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/the-truth-about-vattel-presidents-citizens-subjects/

MichaelN said...

Robert said...

"There are absolutely no Americans who know for certain where Obama was born. If there was even one, he would have certainly presented documentation by now.

And, in regard to the Obots posting here and on other blogs, there is no argument that can be made that they are also ignorant of the truth. Yes, for some unimaginably insane and self destructive reason they have been convinced that they must defend Obama. But, they are clearly not stupid; just grossly misdirected or simply not on the side of our Constitutional Republic.

Unfortunately for them they have been relegated to the process of shoveling fresh manure over old in the hopes that they can hide the smell. They have nothing else.

No hospital in Hawaii or Kenya has ever produced any verifiable documentation that Obama or his mother were ever admitted to their facilities. Neither have they ever produced any documentation showing that Jr. was born while under their care.

Neither the Kenyan or Hawaiian government has ever produced even a single document that supports Obama's birth within their jurisdiction. Kenya says they have sealed Obama's documents and Hawaii says (in a manner that places them in direct conflict with there own laws) they have Obama's documents but can't show them.

All of the documents produced by Obama and his enablers have been proven to be forgeries.

And, to further compound the difficulties of the traitorous fools supporting the Obama insurrection against our Constitutional Republic, there is not a single Supreme Court case or historical reference to support that a natural born citizen is anything other than one born in the country to two citizen parents. There is not even one Supreme Court case that allows for legitimate confusion of this definition. All lower court cases that have failed to support this definition have resorted to ridiculously shallow legal gymnastics and word twisting more suited to river boat con men.

So, only the extreme partisan hack politicians, the completely uniformed, the idiots and the traitors accept Obama as a legitimate president.

I never will. Instead, because it is necessary for the security of our free state, I will seek, and am actively pursuing through legal and just means the course of actions necessary to have the usurper Obama and all of his treasonous enablers removed from our Oval Office and all halls of government. My effort will not desist until the entirety of Obama's fraudulent presidency declared null and void and his cohorts in treason/insurrection are brought to justice."
....................

Hear hear Robert!

There is no time like the present, keep the momentum, the net media in all it's forms is turning the tide of thinking and reasioning.

The target should be Jack Maskell's misleading of the US Congress with his incorrect definition of Artical II "natural born Citizen", this will force the legislators' hand to make a decision as to the correct definition.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

I of II

Both Jack Maskell and you support the notion that a “natural born Citizen” is simply any “citizen” “at birth” or “from birth” and now you want to deny that simple truth. You do not want to give away what you position is because you know it is not defensible. You just want to sound like you know what you are talking about by citing cases and making comments about them, but when it comes to the real deal, you run for the hills.

What is laughable on its face is your attempt to make a “natural born Citizen” into a “natural born subject” simply because both clauses share the words “natural born.” That is as laughable as someone telling us that a “red-headed man” is the same thing as a “red-headed woman.”

That “subject” and “citizen” are analogous when it comes to the names given to the members of a nation does not prove that a “natural born Citizen” has the same meaning as “natural born subject.” It is the definitions of those clauses that count for that, not what the members are called.

Your argument about “means” is ridiculous. So, we are to accept what English writer Dicey defined as “natural born subject” as the definition of a “natural born Citizen” simply because he used the word “means” when defining a “natural born subject,” but we are not to accept how the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) defined a “natural-born citizen” because the Court also did not use the word “means.” What a laughable argument.

Your United States v. Rhodes (1866) “all person born in the allegiance of the United States” quote does not prove either your point or that of ALJ Masin. Rhodes, a criminal case, had absolutely nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.” The case was whether Nancy Talbot, “of the African race, was a “citizen of the United States” under the Civil Rights Act of 1866. The Court found that she was such a “citizen,” “having been born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power.” If fact, Justice Swayne said that the Constitution uses the words “citizen” and “natural born citizens” and that neither the Constitution nor Act of Congress defined those words. He added that, while so much of our own law came from the English common law, that law did not define either a “citizen” or a “natural born citizen.”

Justice Swayne used the clause “born in the allegiance of the United States” when referring to a “natural born citizen,” but he did not define what the clause meant. In other words, he did not describe what one had to do to be “born in the allegiance of the United States.” He did refer to exceptions to the common law rule (children of ambassadors and of slaves), but without defining the meaning of “born in the allegiance of the United States, those exceptions could not be correctly applied. He did not explore the meaning of the “natural born Citizen” clause, and dedicated the rest of his opinion to defining “citizens,” stating that the Civil Rights Act of 1866 (which only defines a “citizen of the United States”) conferred “citizenship.” He then said that “under our constitution and laws” “citizens” meant “‘free inhabitants born within the United States or naturalized under the laws of congress’” (citing and quoting 1 Kent, Comm. 292 note). He added that this was a “great principle of the common law” and that this principle did not change in the United States despite the American Revolution.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

In judging the correctness of Justice Swayne’s statement, that this “great principle of the common law” did not change in the United States despite the American Revolution, it appears that he conflated and confounded U.S. national citizenship with state citizenship. We should keep in mind that most of the states selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by their legislatures, but that the nation on the national level did not do the same. Rather, as the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court would later explain in 1875 in Minor v. Happersett (which included Justice Swayne), the Framers relied upon “common law” which given the definition the Court gave of a “natural-born citizen” under that law (a child born in a country to “citizen” parents) could not have been the English common law, but rather American national common law which had its source in the law of nations. See Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797 (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758) (“The natives, or natural-born citizens,” are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens”). Furthermore, early Congress passed the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, which were consistent with the law of nations/American national common law rule of who was a “natural-born citizen.” These Acts abrogated any English common law on the national level as it might apply to national citizenship (not to be conflated and confounded with state citizenship). Furthermore, Chief Justice Fuller, joined by Justice Harlan, in Wong Kim Ark, in defining national U.S. citizenship, explained that the English common law jus soli rule of citizenship did not survive the American Revolution in that connection.

Justice Swayne also demonstrated how the Civil Rights Act of 1866, being “appropriate legislation” passed by Congress pursuant to Section 2 of the Thirteenth Amendment, was constitutional. Finally, the Civil Rights Act defined a “citizen of the United States.” Yet, Justice Swayne also said that the Act “gives only certain civil rights. Whether it was competent for congress to confer political rights also, involves a different inquiry. We have not found it necessary to consider the subject.” So, from the Rhodes decision, we never did learn how Justice Swayne defined “born in the allegiance of the United States.”

But Justice Swayne gave us further insight into how he defined “born in the allegiance of the United States” when he was part of the U.S. Supreme Court that decided The Slaughter House Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1873). The Court there said in dicta that a child born in the U.S. to alien parents was excluded from the “subject to the jurisdiction” clause of the Fourteenth Amendment from being a “citizen of the United States.” Justice Swayne, dissenting, did not include any criticism of the majority’s dicta in his dissenting opinion. Justice Swayne was also part of the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court that decided the Minor v. Happersett (1875) case. So, your reliance on Rhodes as a precedent on defining a “natural born Citizen” is misplaced.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

You can cite and quote all the "authorities" concerning what a "natural born subject" or "natural born Citizen" is. Those authorities basically just comment on what the English common law and state law provided on state citizenship and can go no further. And of those that comment what they believe our national law said on the definition of a "natural born Citizen," they are all trumped by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor which confirmed Vattel's definition of a "natural-born citizen" and ultimately what an Article II "natural born Citizen" is, which definition was even accepted without objection by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). And the definition of a “natural-born citizen” which Vattel, Minor, and Wong Kim Ark all confirmed is a child born in a country to “citizen” parents. See also Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and Justice Daniels in Dred Scott (1856) (both confirmed Vattel’s definition of a “natural-born citizen”). While you conveniently deny this American history, you cannot rid us of it.

You can spin Wong Kim Ark all you want, but the Court's holding was about interpreting and applying the Fourteenth Amendment, which neither repealed nor amended Article II's "natural born Citizen" clause. Consequently, Wong Kim Ark was about defining a "citizen of the United States" at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment which required the Court to define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof," not about defining an Article II "natural born Citizen" which, requiring both birth in the country to citizen parents, has never been defined by or subjected to any such "jurisdiction" analysis.

Again, my objection with Wong Kim Ark does not concern the “natural born Citizen” clause. Again, the Court did not define a “natural born Citizen” any differently than did Minor, for the Court cited and quoted Minor and its definition with no criticism. Rather, my objection has to do with the Court’s saying, when interpret and apply the Fourteenth Amendment’s “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause, that the U.S. adopted on the national level the English common law jus soli rule of citizenship when it did no such thing, which is evidenced by the Court not being able to produce convincing evidence that such a thing ever occurred. Using the colonial English common law and its notion of broad allegiance (any friendly non-diplomatic alien physically present in the King’s dominion was compelled to be a “subject” of the King), the Court took the “subject to the jurisdiction” clause and converted it into a clause of simple geographical jurisdiction, saying that it meant that any person who was physically present in the U.S. was subject to its laws which was the case in any event under the law of nations, when the framers of the amendment meant it to be one of political jurisdiction (not being subject to any foreign power).

You repeat that “the authority is the United States Supreme Court.” Now it is time for you to stop being a hypocrite and live by your words. You are bound by Minor and Wong Kim Ark’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and under a proper interpretation and application of those decisions, you lose.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

An Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Being born under such circumstances produces in the child at birth allegiance and citizenship only to the United States and thereby makes the child at birth not subject to any foreign power. This is the birth quality that the Founders and Framers expected of future Presidents and Commander in Chief of the Military.

Being born in the U.S. to just one U.S. citizen parent does not produce at birth allegiance and citizenship only in the United States which is needed for the child not to be born subject to any foreign power. A child inherits at least one full foreign allegiance and citizenship from one foreign parent just as such a child would at a minimum inherit from two foreign parents. Under such a scenario, the child at birth acquires allegiance and citizenship to the U.S. by birth in the U.S. and by birth to the U.S. citizen parent, but also a foreign citizenship and allegiance by birth to the non-U.S. citizen parent. So, these birth circumstances produce double allegiance and citizenship at birth. This scenario describes Barack Obama, who if born in Hawaii, was born with allegiance and citizenship to the U.S. by birth in the United States and with allegiance and citizenship to Great Britain (which converted to that of Kenya at age 2) by birth to a British father.

If the U.S.-born child’s parents are both non-U.S. citizens at the time of birth in the United States, then the child can at best also be born with double allegiance and citizenship, if the alien parents were from the same nation. This scenario describes Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, and Nikki Haley, all of whom were born in the U.S. to alien parents who were from the same country. But if the U.S.-born child’s alien parents are each from different countries, then the child will be born with triple allegiance and citizenship (U.S. and that of two different nations).

And being born out of the United States to just one U.S. citizen parent can be even worse, given that one can be born with allegiance and citizenship to the foreign place of birth, born with allegiance and citizenship to the U.S. by birth to the U.S. citizen parent, and allegiance and citizenship in the nation of the alien parent. This scenario produces triple allegiance and citizenship at birth and describes Ted Cruz, who was born in allegiance and a citizen of Canada (place of birth), the U.S. (mother’s citizenship), and Mexico (father’s citizenship).

When the parents of a child who is born out of the U.S. are both U.S. citizens, the child is born with allegiance and citizenship to the foreign place of birth and to the U.S. from being born to U.S. citizen parents. This scenario produces double allegiance and citizenship at birth. This scenario does not describe John McCain because he was born in Panama to U.S. citizen parents who were serving the U.S. national interest and he is reputed born in the United States (even though born in Panama) to U.S. citizen parents.

So, as we can see, Barack Obama, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, and Nikki Haley are all not “natural born Citizens,” while John McCain is.

Unknown said...

article 2 should definitely be strenghened to include background checks and security clearances and we can see what has happened when someone who was born a foreign citizen becomes president. He is first CiC i am aware of who does not even like this country and has no problem selling us out or ruining currency. I know he is not first criminal in white house but he is only one i know of who would be happy if we collapse. The guy is a snake in the grass and his only talent is lying with a straight face.

Unknown said...

You have to be born with full allegiance to US and the only way that can happen is if your parents are american citizens at time of your birth. I do not need to go to law school to figure that out.

MichaelN said...

Even the English law in 17th century held.....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:"

Carlyle said...

@DH

I don't know if we could, or if it would be wise to change the constitution. More importantly. as long as there are educated and well-meaning people running around espousing widely different interpretations, we first of all need the confusion finally and definitively cleared up.

Second, we need some way to broadcast the truth. The problem is not so much that The Obama was not vetted, but that a vast majority think that he has.

There has been since at least mid 2008 a low hum of: "It is preposterous to believe that the government has never vetted him, that does not even pass the sanity test. Therefore all your 'eligibility' and 'foreign agent' concerns are patently foolish. There is no way that stuff could have been hidden during a thorough background check process."

There is also a related seemingly unassailable argument: "He can't be all THAT bad or someone would have told us".

I believe there is something far more sinister here than simple racism. Among other things, no one has ever given even a remotely plausible answer as to how the front-runner HRC folded at the last minute. Even in spite of the formidable political clout of the Clintons, and as against her hoards of fevered supporters.

Anonymous said...

Mr. Apuzzo,

I believe Senator Cruz's father was Cuban.

On another topic.

In the case of the United States v. Isaac Williams (a case about expatriation), Chief Justice Oliver Ellsworth wrote, "The common law of this country remains the same as it was before the revolution. The present question is to be decided by two great principles; one is, that all the members of a civil community are bound to each other by compact; the other is, that one of the parties to this compact cannot dissolve it by his own act."

http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a1_8_4_citizenships13.html

Oliver Ellsworth was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention and a member of the Committee of Five that prepared the first draft of the Constitution.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

4zoltan,

You are right, Ted Cruz's father was born in Cuba, not Mexico. In fact, in some of my ealier comments, you will see that I said that he was born in Cuba. I mistakenly typed Mexico on my latest comment. So, the paragraph for my comment of May 9,2013 at 11:24 p.m. should read:

And being born out of the United States to just one U.S. citizen parent can be even worse, given that one can be born with allegiance and citizenship to the foreign place of birth, born with allegiance and citizenship to the U.S. by birth to the U.S. citizen parent, and allegiance and citizenship in the nation of the alien parent. This scenario produces triple allegiance and citizenship at birth and describes Ted Cruz, who was born in allegiance and a citizen of Canada (place of birth), the U.S. (mother’s citizenship), and Cuba (father’s citizenship).

Unknown said...

carlyle, watch "we will not be silenced", the demomarxists gave nomination to obamao over hillary. Hill was real winner but they rigged the caucuses and convention for evil obama. bettina viviano is a producer who heard bubba say obama was not eligible, she was making a film about the campaign for the clintons i believe. bubba was hinting around barry was not eligible 5 years ago. I do not think obama is a us citizen of any kind with 2 forgerys and a fake social. Mario has certainly proven the child of a alien is not a NBC

js said...

Chief Justice Oliver Ellsworth wrote, "The common law of this country remains the same as it was before the revolution. The present question is to be decided by two great principles; one is, that all the members of a civil community are bound to each other by compact; the other is, <>>>"

That's the point. The fact that a child, born with 2 allegiance, holding both his fathers citizenship, and his mothers, gives that child the ability to chose between the 2. The compact of one of the nations that is passed down through natural inheritance will be dissolved at or before the age of maturity. This gives that individual the ability to dissolve that compact by choosing his/her nationality. A person who has that ability, is not a natural born citizen of either nation, even if they possessed a form of citizenship at birth.

Both the individual, and the civil community, have the power to dissolve any compact of citizenship that (a dual citizenship) child is born with. By choice of the child, by legislation of the government of the civil society.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Both Jack Maskell and you support the notion that a 'natural born Citizen' is simply any 'citizen' 'at birth' or 'from birth' and now you want to deny that simple truth."

I do not want, nor have I ever wanted, to deny that simple truth. You're just making stuff up, again.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"What is laughable on its face is your attempt to make a 'natural born Citizen' into a 'natural born subject' simply because both clauses share the words 'natural born.' That is as laughable as someone telling us that a 'red-headed man' is the same thing as a 'red-headed woman.'"

Does "red-headed" mean something different when applied to "man" than when applied to "woman"? Do you perhaps think that in one case it refers to a copper-like hair color, while in the other it means born in Readheadland to parents who were read-headed? Sounds silly, but what could you possibly be arguing? I'm not saying that "British subject" is the same as "U.S. citizen". I'm saying that "natural-born" is the same as "natural-born".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. went on:
"Your United States v. Rhodes [...] Justice Swayne used the clause [...] In judging the correctness of Justice Swayne’s statement [...]"

No one's eligibility depends on us "judging the correctness of Justice Swayne’s statement". The authority is Wong. When you pretend otherwise, all you do is demonstrate your own incompetence. You choose to go to court with ludicrous arguments, and you got schooled.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You are bound by Minor and Wong Kim Ark’s definition of a natural-born citizen, and under a proper interpretation and application of those decisions, you lose."

On this point you lose because judges actually read the precedents and find that what you say simply is not true. We all agree with Minor that children born in the country of parents who are citizens are natural-born citizens. For all your lecturing on logic, you face-plant on it yourself. From the inclusive statement in Minor you wrongly conclude the converse. That's a grade-school fallacy.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Furthermore, Chief Justice Fuller, joined by Justice Harlan, in Wong Kim Ark, in defining national U.S. citizenship, explained that the English common law jus soli rule of citizenship did not survive the American Revolution in that connection."

On our specific issue, the meaning of that Article II term in American law, the dissenting opinion of Fuller and Harlan states (at 714), "In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always natural-born citizens from the standpoint of this Government."

How does that comport with what you, Mr. Apuzzo, claim is *the* American definition of "natural-born citizen"? If what you've been writing is true, then Chief Justice Fuller was saying:

> In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always born in the country of parents who were citizens from the standpoint of this Government.

How can a child be born in the country and also born abroad? Mr. Apuzzo, I don't want to put you on a position you do not hold, but I don't see how you can get around the contradiction. Can you? Is there some plausible explanation for Chief Justice Fuller's statement consistent with what you've been telling us?

What about the definition I've been citing? Overall I disagree with Chief Justice Fuller's dissenting opinion, as did six out of eight justices of the United States Supreme Court, but not because of the particular definitional point at issue here. If the definition I've been citing agrees with Fuller, then the Chief Justice was saying:

> In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always citizens from the moment of birth from the standpoint of this Government.

That works.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

I of III

(1) I see that you do not want to tell us what the definition of a “natural born Citizen” is, even denying that both you, Maskell, and others put forth that the definition of a “natural born Citizen” is any person who is a “citizen at birth” or “citizen from birth.” What is the matter, are you ashamed to tell us what Maskell’s and your definition of the clause is? I can see why you are embarrassed to admit your error. Here is what you Maskell definition looks like:

All “natural born Citizens” are “citizens at birth.”

X is a “citizen at birth.”

X is a “natural born Citizen”

Which logically is the same as saying:

All poodles are dogs.

X is a dog.

X is a poodle.

So the absurdity of the Maskell thesis is easily unmasked, I have done so, and you now run from it.

(2) Now you too are performing miracles, turning red apples into red cars.

(3) Following your logic that an American “natural born” means the same as an English “natural born,” am I to conclude that an American “fanny” means the same thing as an English “fanny?” Run some more, Unknown.

(4) First you cite Rhodes as supporting your definition of a “natural born Citizen,” even telling us that New Jersey ALJ Masin relied upon Rhodes which he used to prove that I am wrong, and now you tell us that whether one is or is not a “natural born Citizen” is not controlled by Rhodes. I wish that you would make up your mind as to what are your sources that support your position. So, I will take your statement to mean that you accept what I have explained about Rhodes and that you no longer rely on Rhodes for your thesis that an American “natural born Citizen” has the same meaning as an English “natural born subject.”

(5) In the context of defining a “natural born Citizen,” you said that Wong Kim Ark is “the authority.” The problem with that statement is that Wong Kim Ark is “the authority” on what is a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. It held that under the Fourteenth Amendment, “citizens of the United States” at birth include only children born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” which includes children born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents and excludes children born in the United States to parents who are foreign diplomats or members of invading armies.

But Wong Kim Ark is not “the authority” on what is a “natural born Citizen” under Article II. Wong Kim Ark was not even an Article II case, so it surely could not be any authority on that subject. Rather, it confirms that Minor is “the authority” on the definition of a “natural-born citizen.” Like I said to you, stop being a hypocrite and apply the U.S. Supreme Court decisions which have provided us with a definitive definition of a “natural-born citizen.” Both Minor and Wong Kim Ark have confirmed that under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution, “natural-born citizens” were children born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. So “the authority” on the definition of a “natural-born citizen” is Minor, as confirmed by Wong Kim Ark, not Wong Kim Ark alone.

(6) If I got “schooled” by the courts on the definition of a “natural born Citizen,” why do you not just copy what the courts told me about that definition and copy it here. That should be easy enough for you. But yet, I see you do not present us with anything that the courts said that is any type of schooling. And if you get any idea of pasting anything here from the courts, make sure that what you paste includes the reasons for what the court said. After all, any real schooling informs as to what reasons supports any conclusion. We surely would not want to rely upon any net opinions as informing what the truth is.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

(7) At the same time that you do not want to commit to any definition of a “natural born Citizen” (because you know that you have no historical and U.S. Supreme Court support for it), you want us to believe that Minor v. Happersett gave a description of a “natural-born citizen” which included those who it mentioned as meeting that definition, i.e., children born in a country to citizen parents, but did not at the same time exclude anyone who does not meet that description. And you do all that without telling us from the beginning what the definition of the clause is. So, real nice, Unknown, not committing to any definition and giving us a source for that definition, yet wanting to speak with authority on whether Minor gave any limiting definition of the clause. Unknown, you are going to have to do better than that. We are no so easily fooled by your presentation.

For you to conclude that Minor only gave a description that includes and does not exclude who are “natural-born citizens” rather than gave a description that contains both necessary and sufficient conditions to be met by any person wanting to prove that he or she is a “natural-born citizen,” you must have a definition of a “natural born Citizen” which contains means other than those provided by Minor (birth in a country to “citizen” parents) by which one can be a “natural born Citizen.” Why do you not tell us what that definition is and from what source that definition comes? Be sure to define a “natural born Citizen” and not just a “citizen of the United States” which we know today is not eligible to be President. Be sure to tell us how the Founders and Framers knew about and accepted that other definition. So, Unknown, do tell us about how you come to your conclusion that Minor only gave an inclusive description of a “natural-born citizen” rather than one that contains both necessary and sufficient conditions to be met before one may be a “natural-born citizen.”

Contrary to your made up fancy of all these definitions of a “natural born Citizen” just floating in the heavens and ready for our picking when the exigencies of our political desires requires it, there only ever was just one and only one definition of a “natural born Citizen.” That definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. See Emer de Vattel, in The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758) defined a “natural-born citizen” thus: “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” This definition of a “natural-born citizen” was accepted by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) (concurring in the U.S. Supreme Court), Justice Daniels in Dred Scott (1856) (concurring in the U.S. Supreme Court), Minor v. Happesett (1875) (unanimous decision of the U.S. Supreme Court), and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (both majority and dissenting opinions). Let me help you understand the logic of this definition.

The power and logic of Vattel’s statement and definition can be easily missed. Here is what Vattel was actually saying. When he said “The natives, or natural-born citizens,” are those . . .,” he was really saying “All natives, or natural-born citizens, are those . . .” and only those who met the birth circumstances he described (“born in the country, of parents who are citizens”). In other words, his “born in the country, of parents who are citizens” were both necessary and sufficient conditions for being a “natural-born citizen.” Once we have identified “the” “natives, or natural-born citizens,” there cannot be any others and there cannot be any other means by which one can be “natural-born citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

There never has been any other definition of the clause ever recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court. This is the only definition which satisfies the Founders and Framers need for sole and absolute allegiance to the United States from birth by any person wanting to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. Any other birth circumstances (birth in the U.S. to one or two alien parents, or birth in the U.S. to just one U.S. “citizen” parent, or birth out of the U.S. to one or two U.S. citizen parents) produce double or triple allegiance and citizenship at birth, a condition that was not acceptable to the Founders and Framers for the unique, singular and all-powerful constitutional civil and military offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military, given the safety and national security requirements of those offices. This reality leads us to these logical statements.

Statement A:

All and only those persons who are Citizens at Birth and Born in the Country and Born to Citizen Parents are “natural born Citizens.”

X is a person who is a Citizen at Birth and Born in the Country and Born to Citizen Parents

X is a “natural born Citizen.”

Statement B:

No person who is not a Citizen at Birth and Born in the Country and Born to Citizen Parents is a “natural born Citizen.”

X is a person who is not a Citizen at Birth and Born in the Country and Born to Citizen Parents.

X is not a “natural born Citizen.”

Now let us apply these logical statement to eligibility to be President:

The Constitution at Article II provides in pertinent part: “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.” Since all the “Citizens of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution” have since died, today a “citizen of the United States” is not eligible to be President. Rather, today one must be a “natural-born Citizen” to be President.

Barack Obama (maybe born in Hawaii, but born to a U.S. "citizen" mother and a non-U.S. “citizen” father), Ted Cruz (born in Canada to a U.S. “citizen” mother and a non-U.S. “citizen” father), Marco Rubio (born in Florida to two non-U.S. “citizen” parents), Bobby Jindal (born in Louisiana to two non-U.S. “citizen” parents), and Nikki Haley (born in South Carolina to two non-U.S. “citizen” parents) are not Citizens at Birth and Born in the Country and Born to Citizen Parents.

Therefore:

Statement C:

No person who is not a Citizen at Birth and Born in the Country and Born to Citizen Parents is a “natural born Citizen.”

Barack Obama, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, and Nikki Haley are not Citizens at Birth and Born in the Country and Born to Citizen Parents.

Therefore, Barack Obama, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, and Nikki Haley are not “natural born Citizens.”

Which leads us to this inescapable conclusion:

Statement D:

No person who is not a “natural born Citizen” is eligible to be President.

Barack Obama, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, and Nikki Haley are persons who are not “natural born Citizens.”

Therefore, Barack Obama, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, and Nikki Haley are not eligible to be President.

Unknown, it looks like you have failed again and that the “face-plant[ing]” and “grade-school fallacy” are all yours.


Unknown said...

obots like to say minor was a incomplete definition haha. the 14th does not apply to nbcs, only to children of non citizens who are at least here legally. I think some judges have granted citizenship to children of illegals born here and i think that is a total violation of 14th "subject to the jurisdiction thereof". Rubios parents were permanent residents so i can see where he would be a 14th citizen of the us. The best children of aliens born here could ever be is citizens of the us,not nbcs of the us. They would be born with dual citizenship in many cases. To think our Founders would want someone not born with full alegiance to US to be CiC is insanity

MichaelN said...

According to the majority decision in the Minor v Happersett case, which was favorably cited in the Wong Kim Ark majority decision, the 14th Amendment (as a part of the US Constitution) does NOT say who shall be natural born citizens, but the 14th Amendment DOES SAY who shall be born citizens of the United States.

This is consistent with the majority decision in the Wong Kim Ark case, where the court favorably cited top Horace Binney's recognition of two types of born US citizens, i.e. one being "the child of an alien, if born in the country", and the other being "the natural born child of a citizen".

The majority decision in the Wong Kim Ark court held that the term "natural born" was tied exclusively to US citizen parents.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Furthermore, Chief Justice Fuller, joined by Justice Harlan, in Wong Kim Ark, in defining national U.S. citizenship, explained that the English common law jus soli rule of citizenship did not survive the American Revolution in that connection."

On our specific issue, the dissenting opinion of Fuller and Harlan states (at 714), "In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always natural-born citizens from the standpoint of this Government."

How does that comport with what you, Mr. Apuzzo, claim is *the* American definition of "natural-born citizen"? If what you've been writing is true, then Chief Justice Fuller was saying:

> In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always born in the country of parents who were citizens from the standpoint of this Government.

How can a child be born in the country and also born abroad? Mr. Apuzzo, I don't want to put you on a position you do not hold, but I don't see how you can get around the contradiction. Can you? Is there some plausible explanation for Chief Justice Fuller's statement consistent with what you've been telling us?

What about the definition I've been citing? Overall I disagree with Chief Justice Fuller's dissenting opinion, as did six out of eight justices of the United States Supreme Court, but not because of the particular definitional point at issue here. If the definition I've been citing agrees with Fuller, then the Chief Justice was saying:

> In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always citizens from the moment of birth from the standpoint of this Government.

That works.

Chief said...

Time for a class action lawsuit against Obama, and his entire adminstration for under the RICO Act, from the US Citizens United; if done would this fly or be shot down again? What's your opinion?

Anonymous said...

Here's a little preview of a something that I penned today:

LEGAL NATIVES & UNNATURAL CITIZENS

...So Reality is seen as being comprised of those two very different realms; -the Natural realm and its natural associations, and the Legal/ Political realm with its artifical associations; -artificial meaning man-made, and not nature made.

Those two realms are dissimilar enough to be comparable to oil and water. They don't naturally mix, but they can be forced to mix and remain together by the use of an emulsifier. The emulsifier in human society is fear.
The government has the power to punish and penalize, and so the fear of personal consequence for disobedience is the emulsifier that keeps individuals and natural groups in line. That was the case in unnatural nations such as Iraq under Saddam Hussein. Power kept conflict in check.

But in everyone's heart, there is no mistaking the difference between a natural mandate and a government mandate. You know that you must honor your mother on Mother's Day, and that you must honor the law and the IRS by paying your taxes, but you don't confuse the nature of those two requirements. One is from the natural realm while the other is from the legal realm.

Understanding the clear difference between them clarifies the reason why the questions that open this exposition are unnatural questions. They improperly combine terms that are from the two different realms when they should be used only with the realm from which they spring.

Are you a legal native? Clearly, "legal" is not from the natural realm, and "native" is not from the legal realm. They should never be cross-associated. It's the same with the terms "country" and "nation".
One can be a "legal citizen" because citizens are the legal memers of the political entity known as a nation. But one cannot be a legal American because the term "American" refers to membership in a country.

It existed even before the creation of the unifying government and its legal structure. "America" as a country pre-existed "The United States" as a nation. The country had members before the nation had citizens because the members created the nation and thereby became its natural citizens.

So one can be a legal citizen of the United States or a native American / natural American but one cannot be both. Because the natives of the country did not need to give themselves permission to be citizens of the nation that they decided to create. And so they didn't. They wrote no rule into their foundational charter by which they were declared to be citizens of the nation...

Anonymous said...

Chief, Rico is criminal law. Class action lawsuits are civil law. The Attorney General can only bring Rico charges against persons and organizations, but not the government because what the administration does isn't for criminal benefit but for ideological and political benefit.

js said...

Unknown said:

"On our specific issue, the dissenting opinion of Fuller and Harlan states (at 714), "In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always natural-born citizens from the standpoint of this Government." "

Citizens is plural. He did not say that children born to foreign fathers in or out of the country were natural born citizens. He did not say that children born in foreign nations to mothers who married foreign nationals were natural born citizens.

He simply stated what was common knowledge, that a child, born to US citizens while they traveled in foreign nations were natural born citizens.

I can concur with that.

js said...

h2ooflife said...
"Chief, Rico is criminal law. Class action lawsuits are civil law. The Attorney General can only bring Rico charges against persons and organizations, but not the government because what the administration does isn't for criminal benefit but for ideological and political benefit."

Rico Statute;

Sec. 1964. Civil remedies
"(c) Any person injured in his business or property by reason of a violation of section 1962 of this chapter may sue therefore in any appropriate United States district court and shall recover threefold the damages he sustains and the cost of the suit, including a reasonable attorney’s fee, except that no person may rely upon any conduct that would have been actionable as fraud in the purchase or sale of securities to establish a violation of section 1962...."

Sorry to bust your bubble, but RICO charges are commonly pursued in Civil Court.

Anonymous said...

js wrote: "Sorry to bust your bubble, but RICO charges are commonly pursued in Civil Court."

I wrote: "The Attorney General can only bring Rico charges against persons and organizations, but not the government."

My statement is correct. The AG can only bring criminal charges but not against the government.

Civilians do not "bring charges" in the sense of criminal law. They file suits for damages which contain charges but not criminal charges. The government cannot bring civil charges (class action) against the government, itself. Though I wouldn't bet my life on it. But what kind of bizarre scenario would result in such a thing?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I see that you do not want to tell us what the definition of a 'natural born Citizen' is, even denying that both you, Maskell, and others put forth that the definition of a 'natural born Citizen' is any person who is a 'citizen at birth' or 'citizen from birth.'"

As I've written, I agree with the consensus of scholars that "natural born Citizen" means citizen from birth. If you think I ever denied it, I ask you to quote me denying it.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here is what you Maskell definition looks like:"

Only to those who wish not to see.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"First you cite Rhodes as supporting your definition of a 'natural born Citizen,' even telling us that New Jersey ALJ Masin relied upon Rhodes which he used to prove that I am wrong,"

ALJ Masin relied on Wong, not Rhodes. If I've told you otherwise, please quote me doing so. All my mentions of Rhodes have been within citations of Wong. Masin's one citation of Rhodes was a citation of the Supreme Court citing it in Wong. Jack Maskell's CRS report that you cited above mentions Rhodes twice: in a string cite that also includes Wong, and when he cites the same quote from Wong as Masin.

The authority is the United States Supreme Court in Wong, not an individual Justice or a Circuit court in Rhodes. There's only one person here pretending otherwise, and that's you, Mr. Apuzzo. And you know better. Word-search of your 10 April 2012 Exception to Masin's Initial Decision find "Wong" fifty-one times and "Rhodes" zero.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"But Wong Kim Ark is not 'the authority' on what is a 'natural born Citizen' under Article II."

On the eligibility of Ted Cruz, the subject of your article, you have an arguable point. In the case of a native-born candidate such as Barack Obama, Nikki Haley, Marco Rubio, or Bobby Jindal, your theory stands utterly debunked. Your efforts, Counselor, have done more to debunk it than have mine.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"If I got 'schooled' by the courts on the definition of a 'natural born Citizen,'why do you not just copy what the courts told me about that definition and copy it here."

Been there; done that.

Unknown said...

js wrote:
"Citizens is plural. He did not say that children born to foreign fathers in or out of the country were natural born citizens. He did not say that children born in foreign nations to mothers who married foreign nationals were natural born citizens.

He simply stated what was common knowledge, that a child, born to US citizens while they traveled in foreign nations were natural born citizens.

I can concur with that."


In your comment, JS, "fathers" is plural. Does that mean that a child must have multiple fathers to qualify? Obviously the pluralization is incidental, and obviously the same holds for the quote of the Wong dissent. How would Chief Justice Fuller's comment read were he to use the singular there?

> "In my judgment, the children of our citizen born abroad were always natural-born citizens from the standpoint of this Government."

Doesn't scan.

The plural issue received brief consideration in the decision on Paige v. Obama in Vermont, on which our host, Mario Apuzzo Esq, assisted the plaintiff, H. Brooke Paige. The Vermont Superior Court wrote, in part:

"While the court has no doubt at this point that Emmerich de Vattel's treatise /The Law of Nations/ was a work of significant value to the founding fathers, the court does not conclude that the phrase -- "The natives, or natural born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens." -- has constitutional significance or that his use of the "parents" in the plural has particular significance.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/113533939/VT-Paige-v-Obama-Et-Al-DeCISION-Vt-Super-Ct-Nov-2012

JS, thanks for concurring that children born abroad to US citizens are natural-born citizens. Even aside from the plural issue, that's enough to refute Mr. Apuzzo's theory.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

When Vattel said “parents,” he meant mother and father. In Section 212, he uses “parents.” Later in the section he uses “fathers.” Hence, if “parents” meant just one parent, it could have only meant “father.” But Vattel defines a “natural-born citizen” as born “of parents who are citizens.” If he meant to mean just one parent and that parent was a father, he would have defined a “natural-born citizen” as follows: “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of fathers who are citizens.” But he used “parents,” not “fathers,” which he used later in the section when he said: “The country of the fathers is therefore that of the chidren.” He used “fathers” later because both wives and children followed the citizenship of the husbands and fathers. Hence, if the husband (father) was a citizen, so was the wife. So, the child needed a father and mother who were citizens (“parents”) who became so through citizen “fathers.”

Even Ankeny agrees with me. In Footnote 12 of the opinion, the court said: “Note that the Court in Minor contemplates only senarios where both parents are either citizens or aliens, rather in the case of President Obama, whose mother was a citzen and father was a citizen of the United Kingdom.” If you will look to Minor to see to what Ankeny is referring, Minor said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.” Here we have the majority of the U.S. Supreme Court using “parents,” just like Vattel used “parents,” and Ankeny tells us that “parents” in Minor meant “both parents.” Hence, since Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen” comes from Vattel’s Section 212, and they both used “parents” in the same manner, according to Minor and Ankeny, Vattel’s “parents” also meant mother and father.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

I of II

You said that “Judge Bent from Paige v. Obama says “Vattel’s ‘natives or natural born citizens’ statement has no Constitutional significance.”

Would you care to explain for us:

1. By what coincidence these statements appear to be quite similar:

(a) Emer de Vattel, the Founders and Framers favorite commentator on the law of nations, said in Section 212 of his world-renowned treatise, The Law of Nations:

”The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”

Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, or Principles of the Laws of Nature, Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns, bk. 1, c. 19, sec. 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758).

(b) In The Venus case, Chief Justice John Marshall, who was the fourth Chief Justice of the United States and whose court opinions helped lay the basis for American constitutional law, joined by Justice Livingston, said:

“Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”

The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring as to this part of his decision).

(c) Justice Joseph Story, who historians agree reshaped American law as much or more than Marshall or anyone else, providing the same Vattelian definition without citing Vattel, stated in Shanks v. Dupont: “If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.”

Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

(d) Justice Daniels concurring in Dred Scott cited Vattel and The Law of Nations and provided his definition of natural born citizens and took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively, and stated: “The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.” Again: I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country. . . .”).

Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393(1857) (Justice Daniels concurring).

(e) The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. (21 Wall.) 162, 167 (1875).

Please explain how it is that all these statements coming from members of our U.S. Supreme Court seem to repeat the basic premise found in Vattel’s Section 212, i.e., that a “natural-born citizen” is a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

2. If these statements are quite similar and appear to have their basis in what Vattel said in Section 212, by what principle can we agree with Judge Bent that Vattel’s definition of a “natural-born citizen” has no constitutional significance?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

I of II

You said to JS: “JS, thanks for concurring that children born abroad to US citizens are natural-born citizens. ” Wrong again.

There is plenty of evidence that the Founders and Framers did not accept a child born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents as an Article II “natural born Citizen.”

1. Constitutional text and structure: We know from Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 that “Citizens of the United States,” born after the adoption of the Constitution, are no longer eligible to be President and that only the “natural born Citizens” are. This means that today, one must show that he/she is a “natural born Citizen” as defined at the time the Constitutional was passed and ratified and not only a “citizen of the United States.”

2. The purpose of the “natural born Citizen” clause: The “natural born Citizen” clause is designed to exclude from the constitutionally unique Office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military monarchical and foreign influence. Any child born in a foreign nation, even if born to two U.S. citizen parents, acquires at birth from being born on that foreign soil foreign allegiance and citizenship which is foreign influence or alienage. Such a child needs to be naturalized in order to be made a U.S. citizen.

3. Source of the definition of an Article II “natural born Citizen:” Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes (1866), decided before passage of the Fourteenth Amendment, explained that the definition of a “citizen” and “natural born citizen” did not exist either in the Constitution or in the English common law. As both Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) informed, the definition of a “natural-born citizen” does not exist in the Constitution, including the Fourteenth Amendment, but rather exists in “common law” with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. This common law definition became part of the Constitution by incorporation and is the supreme law of the land which cannot be changed without duly passed and ratified constitutional amendment.

4. Constitutional powers: On matters of citizenship and naturalization, Congress only has the power “[t]o establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization.” Article I, Section 8, Clause 4. This power does not include the power to make anyone a “natural born Citizen,” for that does not require naturalization. This means that Congress does not have the constitutional power to alter the constitutional common law definition of a “natural born Citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

5. Statutory construction: The First Congress, with the Naturalization Act of 1790, recognized that a child born out of the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents needed naturalization and with that naturalization act, which it passed under its naturalization powers, naturalized such a child and said that he/she “shall be considered as a natural born citizen.” This statute was designed to give through naturalization such children the same privileges and immunities as the “natural born Citizens,” which we know included all privileges and immunities except the right to be President.

The Third Congress, led by James Madison, wanted to remove any misunderstanding as to the birth status and rights of these children born abroad and removed the language “shall be considered as natural born citizens” and replaced it with “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” There is no reasonable explanation why the Third Congress and James Madison would have deleted the “natural born citizen” language and replaced it with “citizens of the United States” other than to demonstrate that such children were not eligible to be President. Congress never again used the clause “natural born Citizen” in any of its naturalization acts. Congress also did not use the clause in the Fourteenth Amendment.

In 1802, Congress, using its naturalization powers, declared through the Naturalization Act of 1802 that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who acquired that status after 1802 were aliens and needed naturalization in order to become “citizens of the United States.” If these children were “natural born Citizens,” Congress could never have denied them their birthright citizenship as it did. It was not until the Naturalization Act of 1855 that Congress again naturalized these children to be “citizens of the United States” at birth which is their birth status today.

6. Conclusion: Children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents are at best naturalized as having the same privileges and immunities as the “natural born Citizens” which we know does not include the privilege to be President. These children under current Congressional Acts are “citizens of the United States” at birth. They are not constitutional (national) common law “natural born Citizens.” Since they are “citizens of the United States” at birth by way of naturalization Acts of Congress and not “natural born Citizens” under constitutional common law, they are not eligible to be President. For these reasons, Ted Cruz, born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and Cuban father, is a “citizen of the United States” at birth under current naturalization Acts of Congress (he would have been alien born under the Naturalization Act of 1802), but he is not an Article II “natural born Citizen.” He is therefore not eligible to be President.

So, Unknown, you are wrong again on all points.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

You said: “As I’ve written, I agree with the consensus of scholars that “natural born Citizen” means citizen from birth.”

Hidding behind some “consensus of scholars” existing in the clouds, are we?

Now, please do tell us from where such a definition of a “natural born Citizen” comes. After all, you say that you agree with these scholars, so you must have somehow confirmed that what they say is correct. Please share with us the source of this definition. Please, no evasion by way of little snarky comments.

Unknown said...

How many of these scholars were supreme court justices involved in 1875 minor case? The Naturalization act of 1795 said children born to americans outside of US are citizens of the US, not natural born citizens of the US. George Washington signed this himself. Unknown is like obamao, jay goebbels and eric holdup in IRS, AP and benghazi scandals, he does not seem to know a lot. I have just about had it with these gangsters in white house and his lying obots but i do think the fraud might be next nixon.

js said...

Unknown Said;
"In your comment, JS, "fathers" is plural. Does that mean that a child must have multiple fathers to qualify? Obviously the pluralization is incidental, and obviously the same holds for the quote of the Wong dissent. How would Chief Justice Fuller's comment read were he to use the singular there?"

Actually, it is a class just like "citizens" is. The stupidity in your suggestion is apparent, a child can not have 2 fathers. And consequently, a child CAN have to CITIZEN parents. So the suggestion is moot. Is that the best ya got? Silly word games???

js said...

Unknown said;

"JS, thanks for concurring that children born abroad to US citizens are natural-born citizens. Even aside from the plural issue, that's enough to refute Mr. Apuzzo's theory."

More word games. You omit my statements inference of traveling to make a sweeping conclusion that all children born to US Citizens are NBC's. It was intentional through your omission to make that false conclusion.

This is the same type fault that your source made that you cited. Ignoring parts of the truth in order to force a conclusion that is invalid under weight of the whole truth is nothing more than a lie.

In your fantasy, those lie's might be your truth, but in reality, they do not hold any dignity in a valid system of justice because of omissions which, if included, would demand a different verdict. The use of such tactics is not justice, but it is a perversion of justice which cannot stand.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

js,

Unknown represents persons who make up their mind before or even the minute you walk into the room. They observe and listen to the parties’ presentation with a biased eye and ear for the person they favor. Then, no matter how absurd their reasoning is, they manipulate the facts or the rules or both to justify their decision which favors the party they like.

js said...

Mario said;

"they manipulate the facts or the rules or both to justify their decision which favors the party they like"

Its reprobate. Their conscience has become dull to moral and ethical behavior because they are used to violations of dignity. Their sense of justice is shot, they no longer seek to find the truth, as in the whole truth, but only in those parts that fit their preconceived conclusions. If the truth fails to agree with those conclusions, they attempt to ignore it.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"When Vattel said 'parents,' he meant mother and father."

My French-speaking friends tell me that the use of the plural is ambiguous as a matter of grammar, as it is in English, but as "Les Naturels ou indigènes" means the indigenous natives, Vattel probably meant ancestors or blood relatives in the plural. Vattel's concept simply does not translate to a nation that did not consider the land's indigenous natives to be citizens.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"He used 'fathers' later because both wives and children followed the citizenship of the husbands and fathers."

Which side are you arguing? If Vattel and the Minor Court meant both parents because mothers at the time could have no citizenship of their own, that doesn't make the use of the plural significant.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Even Ankeny agrees with me. In Footnote 12 of the opinion, the court said: 'Note that the Court in Minor contemplates only senarios where both parents are either citizens or aliens, rather in the case of President Obama, whose mother was a citzen and father was a citizen of the United Kingdom.'"

Where did they say that they get that from the use of the plural?

Mr. Apuzzo, adverse court decisions are an excellent learning opportunity. They're not a good teaching opportunity. Your job was to convince the judge, not the other way around.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Would you care to explain for us:
1. By what coincidence these statements appear to be quite similar:"

Not a coincidence.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"2. If these statements are quite similar and appear to have their basis in what Vattel said in Section 212, by what principle can we agree with Judge Bent that Vattel’s definition of a 'natural-born citizen' has no constitutional significance?"

Oh, I don't expect you to agree. Judge Bent, who had your brief, found more logical that, "the expression 'natural born Citizen' is not dependant on the nationality of the parents, but reflects the status of a person born into citizenship instead of having citizenship subsequently bestowed." You can disagree, but there is a clue in that your courts keep telling you what the obots have been telling you all along.

As for the principle, you might find it in the dissent you previously cited from U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. (1898). Chief Justice Fuller, joined by Associate Justice Harlan, quoted the familiar weak translation of Vattel (at 708), yet stated (at 714), "In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always natural-born citizens from the standpoint of this Government." Va tell is a historical authority, but not authoritative on this Government. His rules are not our rules and his language is not our language.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
You said to JS: 'JS, thanks for concurring that children born abroad to US citizens are natural-born citizens.' Wrong again.

Nope. JS wrote, "I can concur with that." The subject was the statement by Chief Justice Fuller, joined by Associate Justice Harlan, "In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always natural-born citizens from the standpoint of this Government." Am I wrong about any of that?

I understand that you, Mr. Apuzzo, do not concur with Fuller and Harlan on that. You had cited their dissent on different point, writing, "Furthermore, Chief Justice Fuller, joined by Justice Harlan, in Wong Kim Ark, in defining national U.S. citizenship, explained that the English common law jus soli rule of citizenship did not survive the American Revolution in that connection."

When you cite as an authority an opinion that flat-out refutes the core of your argument, you ought not be surprised when it gets cited back at you.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown @May 19, 2013 at 5:58 PM,

I of II

Vattel is written in both French and English. Your “French-speaking friends” are not more authoritative than members of our U.S. Supreme Court who have on several occasions (especially in Minor) used Vattell’s “parents” when defining a “natural-born citizen,” and who Ankeny tells us in Footnote 12 means “both parents.” Unknown, “[w]hen you cite as an authority an opinion that flat-out refutes the core of your argument, you ought not be surprised when it gets cited back at you.”

Ankeny’s Footnote 12 also has support in Wong Kim Ark where Justice Gray said that “[t]he child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle.” To understand this statement, we have to remember that in 1898 husbands and wives had just one citizenship. If the husband was a U.S. “citizen,” so was his wife. If the husband was an alien, so was the wife. Hence, husbands and wives always had the same citizenship which followed that of the husband. When referring to both classes of membership, the “citizen” and the “natural-born citizen,” Justice Gray used the singular case for the parent of the child, being either “an alien” or “a citizen.” The case of children born in the country to two U.S. “citizen” parents did not present any problem, for they could only be “natural-born citizens.” Similarly, the case of children born in the country to two alien parents also did not present any problem, for they could only be “citizens.” But if there was no unified citizenship between the husband and wife, a case of children born to one U.S. “citizen” parent and one alien parent would present a problematic situation.

The logical necessity of Justice Gray’s statement shows that regarding a “citizen,” in referring to “[t]he child of an alien,” he really meant born of a father who was “an alien,” which produced a father and mother who were “aliens” and regarding the “natural born citizen” being “the natural-born child of a citizen,” he really meant born to a father who was “a citizen,” which produced a father and mother who were “citizens.” If he did not mean this plural sense for the parents of a “citizen” and “natural-born citizen,” his two classes of members could not be distinguished from each other in the case of a child being born to a U.S. “citizen” parent and an alien parent. In the case of parents with such mixed citizenship, the same child would be both a “natural-born citizen,” by being born in the country to “a citizen” parent (and one alien parent), and at the same time also a “citizen,” by having been born in the country to “an alien” parent (with the other parent being either an alien or “citizen”). This mixture of citizenships between spouses would also violate the rule that the wife followed the citizenship of the husband.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

So that hypothetical child, born to parents of mixed citizenships, would in all such cases be both a “citizen” and a “natural-born citizen,” which would cause in such cases the “natural-born citizen” class, i.e., the children born in the country to two U.S. “citizen” parents, to lose all constitutional significance. The only case which would present a clear separation between a “citizen” and a “natural-born citizen” would be when a child’s parents were both aliens, for only in that case would the child not be born at the same time to “an alien” and to “a citizen” and therefore not at the same time a “citizen” and also a “natural-born citizen.” In such a case, the child could only be a “citizen.” The problem of parents with mixed citizenships not only existed for the one child of such parents, but also between different children of mixed citizen parents, with one child being considered a “citizen” (born of “an alien”) and another a “natural-born citizen” (born of “a citizen”), and their birth status could also be reversed. So as we can see, with parents with mixed citizenships, the constitutional distinction between a “citizen” and a “natural born Citizen” would disappear. As Chief Justice Marshall explained in Marbury v. Madison, construing the Constitution to cause any of its words or clauses to have no significance or effect is inadmissible, unless specifically required, which in the case of the “natural born Citizen” clause it is not.

To avoid this inadmissible result, Justice Gray had to have meant that a person can be a “citizen” even if born in the country to a father and mother who are both aliens and a “natural-born citizen” if born in the country to a father and mother who are both citizens. Justice Gray’s statement, “[t]he child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle,” proves that a “natural born Citizen” needs to be born in the country to parents who are both U.S. “citizen” or else under Justice Gray’s statement, there would be no way to distinguish a “citizen” from a “natural born Citizen” in the case of children born to one U.S. “citizen” parent and one alien parent. Given Justice Gray’s statement requiring birth to two U.S. “citizen” parents in order for a child born in the country to be a “natural-born citizen,” if it were possible for a child to be born in the country to one U.S. “citizen” parent and one alien parent, which is what happened with the Cable Act of 1922, that child could only be a “citizen,” and not a “natural-born citizen.”

As far as Ankeny understanding that when Minor (Vattel) said “parents” it meant “both parents,” the court clearly said so in Footnote 12. Also, there is no other reason for the court to have so concluded other than that Minor (Vattel) said “parents” rather than “parent.”

Those like Judge Bent and you who interpret the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark to make Wong, born in the United States to two alien parents (and it could have been one U.S. parent and one alien parent), a “natural born Citizen” rather than just a “citizen,” have done exactly what Justice Gray sought to avoid, read the “natural-born citizen” clause out of the Constitution.

js said...

@ Mario May 19, 2013 at 11:06 PM;

The distinction between the 2 parents with the same citizenship and the 2 with not the same citizenship is clear. One child holds a single citizenship at birth, while the other holds the citizenship of the birth nation and that of the foreign parents.

This distinct issue is all about limiting foreign influence into the government of the USA. Any child born with any allegiance to any foreign nation is a door to that ends, making the dual citizenship a non qualifier to become PoTUS under the intent of the founding fathers.

js said...

Unknown said...
Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
You said to JS: 'JS, thanks for concurring that children born abroad to US citizens are natural-born citizens.' Wrong again.

Unknown said;

"Nope. JS wrote, "I can concur with that." The subject was the statement by Chief Justice Fuller, joined by Associate Justice Harlan, "In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always natural-born citizens from the standpoint of this Government." Am I wrong about any of that?"

Absolutely. You are playing games with words again. Exactly what did I say I can concur with?

"He simply stated what was common knowledge, that a child, born to US citizens while they traveled in foreign nations were natural born citizens."

THAT.

What you said was a lie. Again.

MichaelN said...

Started this thread at City Data...

"Wong Kim Ark case - US Supreme Court Held there are Two Types of Born US Citizens"

http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/1869213-wong-kim-ark-case-us-supreme.html#post29681443

MichaelN said...

Here's what I posted at city-data. com forum, and after only a few posts in response the thread has been closed.

"In the majority decision of the US Supreme Court case Wong Kim Ark, the court cited favorably to a prior US Supreme Court case, i.e. the Minor v Happersett case where it was held that the 14th Amendment, as a part of the US Constitution "does not say who shall be natural born citizens", but the 14th Amendment does say who shall be born US citizens.

Ergo: a born US citizen is not necessarily a natural born citizen.

The majority decision of the US Supreme Court in the Minor v Happersett case also recognized unsolved doubts if native-birth on US soil was sufficient to make a US citizen at all.

This was also cited favorably by the US Supreme Court in the majority decision of the Wong Kim Ark case.

The majority decision of the US Supreme Court in the Minor v Happersett case, also favorably cited by the majority decision of the Wong Kim Ark case, held that a natural born citizen was a person who was not only native-born on US soil, but also born to US citizen parents.

The majority decision of the US Supreme Court in the Wong Kim Ark also favorably cited cited Horace Binney's recognition of two types of born US citizens.

One being "the child of an alien, if born in the country" and the other being "the natural born child of a citizen".

In essence the US Supreme Court has consistently held that native-birth on US soil does not suffice to make a natural born citizen of the US, but does in most cases suffice to make a born US citizen, and further the court held that the term "natural born" is exclusively peculiar to US citizen parents.

The US Supreme Court has never held or ruled that native-birth on US soil was sufficient to make a natural born citizen of the US.

WAITE, C.J., Opinion of the Court
SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES
88 U.S. 162
Minor v. Happersett

Argued: February 9, 1875 --- Decided: March 29, 1875

Quote:
"The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens.

Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.

At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.

Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first."

UNITED STATES v. WONG KIM ARK.

169 U.S. 649
United States v. Wong Kim Ark (No. 18)
Argued: March 5, 8, 1897
Decided: March 28, 1898

Quote:
"The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle."
The notion that native-birth on US soil is sufficient to make a person a natural born citizen of the US has no foundation or precedent in either English law (which many say is what the US law is based on) nor US Supreme Court decisions or holdings.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremeco...R_0169_0649_ZO

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/1869213-wong-kim-ark-case-us-supreme.html#ixzz2UAu6pPR2

Robert said...

I have some questions for those wishing to claim that English Common Law established everyone born in the country as a natural born subject regardless of parentage.

How did the British consider American slaves? Were they property here, but natural born subjects under English Law?

What about the native American Indian tribes?

What about all the people living in non-English settlements? French, German, Spanish, Scandinavian ....

What about gypsies?

How many of these groups received representation in the British House of Parliament merely because they were born on "British" soil?

Anonymous said...

"How many of these groups received representation in the British House of Parliament...?"

Whoa... The American Revolution was necessary because the colonist themselves were not represented in the House of Parliament. They were a form of chattel to the English, born on the King's plantation as a kind of foreign serf,- forever in a kind of nationality limbo due to the New World territory being a form of aloidal property owned outright by the king, along with all born in it. They were to the English similar in effect to the Chinese born in America in the eyes of Americans. Not really members of our group, and hence the colonists were not protected by English rights.

Anonymous said...

Justice Gray’s statement, “[t]he child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a natural-born citizen as the child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle,”

That is how the obamanauts read such statements even though the "natural-born" reference is attached deliberately to the wrong use of the word citizen.

It could have been worded even more plainly and yet still mean the same thing: "the child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the child of a citizen."
Adding "natural born" in reference to the child of a citizen is a form of redundancy because all children of citizens are natural born citizens. That is the nature of their political identity.
A foreigner has a child in his foreign land, then emigrates illegally to the U.S. with his alien child and wife, his wife has another child here which is a foreigner also. Then he obtains a Green Card and is an official permanent U.S. resident. A third child is then born and it is a 14th Amendment native-born citizen. The parents become naturalized and their children all become American citizens through them.
He becomes a father again and as a citizen his child is a natural born citizen who can serve as President, but his older siblings can't because they were born as aliens or as naturalized-at-birth citizens, -not natural citizens.

Anonymous said...

~a new exposition:
Class Presidents & U.S. Presidents; -the Eligible & Ineligible

Just as the nation elects a President, so also, the fictional College of Diplomatic Officers elects a student President. They both do it by similar rules and with a similar purpose determining those rules.

The President of the United States wields the authority of the Commander-in-Chief and so he must have the most unquestionable loyalty to the nation of all officers of the United States government.

The President of the Student Union goes on after graduation to become the chief deputy officer for diplomatic security under the Secretary of State, and so is entrusted with the lives of American diplomats around the world.

The rules for selecting the person voted to be President include the following considerations:

No person is eligible to be President of the Student Union except a student.
No person is eligible to be President of the United States except a citizen.

No alien-born student is eligible to be President of the S.U.
No alien-born citizen is eligible to be President of the U.S.

Only American-born students are eligible to be President of the S.U.
Only American-born Citizens are eligible to be President of the U.S.

But there's a problem. What the heck does American-born even mean?

Does it mean born in America or born of Americans?
Those are very different possibilities since not all students / citizens born in American are born of Americans.
Some are born of foreigners because their parents are a foreign Diplomat-&-spouse serving in the U.S.
cont. at http://obama--nation.com

Mick said...

“It is the state that speaks and acts through its agents; although such agents exercise powers they do not possess, or that the state does not possess, and although their action is illegal. Inspectors of elections represent the state. They exercise the whole power of the state in creating its actual government by the reception of votes and the declaration of the results of the votes. If they willfully and corruptly receive illegal votes, reject legal votes, make false certificates by which a usurper obtains an office, the act is in each case the act of the state, and the result must be abided by until corrected by the action of the courts. No matter how erroneous, how illegal or corrupt, may be their action, if it is upon the subject which they are appointed to manage, it binds all parties as the action of the state until legal measures are taken to annul it. They are authorized by the state to act in the premises, and if their act is contrary to their instructions or their duty, they are nevertheless officers of the state, acting upon a subject committed to them by the state, and their acts are those of the state. The legislature speaks; its officers act. The voice and the act are equally those of the state”. US v. Reese 92 US 214, 252 (1876) (dissent)

Mick said...

Ableman v. Booth, 62 U.S. 506 (1859), was a United States Supreme Court case in which the Court held that state courts cannot issue rulings that contradict the decisions of federal courts, overturning a decision by the Supreme Court of Wisconsin. The Supreme Court held that under the Constitution, the federal courts have the final power to decide cases arising under the Constitution and federal statutes, and that the states do not have the power to overturn federal court decisions. Thus, Wisconsin did not have the authority to nullify federal judgments or statutes.

Therefore these fraudulent state courts that attempt to circle jerk some kind of "precedent" from their own fraudulent rulings (after they have decided that no standing exists)have no power to overrule Minor v. Happersett.

Mick said...

“Within its legitimate sphere, Congress is supreme and beyond the control of the courts; but if it steps outside of its constitutional limitations and attempts that which is beyond its reach, the courts are authorized to, and when called upon in due course of legal proceedings must, annul its encroachments upon the reserved power of the states and the people”. US v. Reese, 92 US 214, 221 (1876)

A2S1C4 is a self executing Constitutional provision (like "freedom of speech"). No law or congressional action is necessary to enforce it. It is up to the courts to decide if A1S2C4 has been violated.

Mick said...

The question of Presidential eligibility is not committed to Congress. See A1S5:
"Each House shall be the judge of the elections, returns and qualifications of its own members." There is nothing in the Constitution that says that Congress judges the qualifications of the President.

Amendment 25 says in plain english that the President may be "REMOVED", and the Congressional law that gives that amendment, and Amendment 20 effect (3 US Code S. 19 (a)(2)) says that the person ACTING AS PRESIDENT, may be removed due to "INABILITY".

"INABILITY": lack of sufficient power, resources, or CAPACITY (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).
"CAPACITY":legal competency or fitness (Merriam-Webster Dictionary)

INABILITY can be "Lack of legal competentcy or fitness".

Amendment 25 S1:
"In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President."

Robert said...

h2ooflife,
I appreciate your comment.

It looks like the bar is even higher than I thought. Being a citizen is hugely different than being a subject. And, as you described the colonialists to be kind-of, sort-of subjects with no real rights or representation the gap is even bigger.

It's easy to see why the founders chose to be citizens and to separate themselves as far as possible and prudent from English Common Law as quickly as they could.

I would imagine that any reference to their being "subjects" of any kind would have been very offensive to them. Your illustration also reinforces, at least for me, their attraction to Natural Law and the Law of Nations.

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

It appears that the crux of the argument of the Obots is this opinion found in the decision of the SCOTUS in the Wong Kim Ark case....

"It thus clearly appears that, by the law of England for the last three centuries, beginning before the settlement of this country and continuing to the present day, aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the Crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, the jurisdiction of the English Sovereign, and therefore every child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject unless the child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign State or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born.

III. The same rule was in force in all the English Colonies upon this continent down to the time of the Declaration of Independence, and in the United States afterwards, and continued to prevail under the Constitution as originally established."


Here is how I responded.

"This quote you posted completely agrees with what I have pointed-out about the US Supreme Court decisions and holdings that native-birth has never been accepted as sufficient to make a natural born citizen.

The conclusion in the first paragraph of what you quoted, is based on the preceeding facts, which are merely a re-wording of the English law which simply and clearly held that native-birth was not sufficient to make a natural born subject and that native-born children to non-subject parents "are no subjects", because they would be "not born under the ligeance of a subject".

It doesn't change it's meaning because it's re-worded.

To the English, "aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the Crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, the jurisdiction of the English Sovereign" were in fact subjects by local ligeance.

(cont'd)

MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 2

Basically the parents of a "child of an ambassador or other diplomatic agent of a foreign State or of an alien enemy in hostile occupation of the place where the child was born." were not subjects, according to the English law, which was being referred to in the quote you posted.

Because they were not subjects, their native-born children could not be subjects.

It doesn't matter if they were butchers, bakers or candle-stick makers, the point is that those classes of people were NOT SUBJECTS.

What you quoted was a re-wording of this, taken verbatim from the benchmark English law case known as Calvin's case.

Quote:
"Concerning the local obedience, it is observable, that as there is a local protection on the King’s part, so there is a local ligeance of the subject’s part. And this appeareth in 4 Mar. Br. 32. and 3 and 4 Ph. and Mar. Dyer 144. Sherley a Frenchman, being in amity with the King, came into England, and joyned with divers subjects of this realm in treason against the Kingand Queen, and the indictment concluded contra ligeant’ suae debitum; for he owed to the King a local obedience, that is, so long as he was within the King’s protection: which local obedience, being but momentary and incertain, is strong enough to make a natural subject; for if he hath issue here, that issue is a natural born subject:"

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum, neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

"This word ligeance is well expressed by divers several names or synonymia which we find in our books. Sometime it is called the obedience or obeysance of the subject to the King,"

"There be regulary (unlesse it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born.
1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the king.
2. That the place of his birth be within the king’s dominion.
And 3. the time of his birth is chiefly to be considered;"
http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=c...html&Itemid=27

The "same rule" was that the English required a subject father to make a native-born child a natural born subject and that native birth was rejected as sufficient to make a natural born subject, and for this "same rule" to continue to prevail in the US, then a native-born child in US would need to be born to a US citizen father to be a US atural born citizen.

The US didn't and still doesn't embrace aliens as citizens/subjects like the English did, in US they must naturalize by due process to become citizens, renounce all other allegiances and swear an oath of allegiance to the US.

This is where you get mixed up."

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/1869213-wong-kim-ark-case-us-supreme.html#ixzz2UR7URoMn

Mick said...

Filed 4/29 in Fla Supreme Court. Petition for Writ of Mandamus to force the SOS of Fla., Ken Detzner, do his duty, as required by Fla. statute (97.012(14))and by US Code 3 S.5, to force the appeals court to issue an opinion asd to the eligibility of Barack Obama. That contest of eligibility is given explicitly, as a legal cause of action, to any Fla. voter, eligible to vote in the election, by Fla statute (102.168 (1)(3)(b). Any voter may challenge the eligibility of "ANY PERSON NOMINATED OR ELECTED TO OFFICE">

http://www.scribd.com/doc/139033117/In-the-Supreme-Court-of-Fla-Voeltz-v-Obama-Secretary-of-State-Ken-Detzner-Florida-ECC

Mick said...

No comment Mr. Apuzzo?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mick,

As I argued to the New Jersey Appellate Division in Purpura and Moran v. Obama, it is absurd to put forth a notion that we are to wait for Congress in Joint Session to tell us whether a President-Elect is a “natural born Citizen.” Such a position fails on two grounds, one constitutional and the other practical.

First, Congress does not have the constitutional power to interpret the Constitution and the “natural born Citizen” clause, for that is a judicial function. See Marbury v. Madison (1803) (early established that interpretation of the Constitution is a judicial function which under our form of tripartite republican government must be exercised when the court has jurisdiction). For the courts to abdicate their powers in this regard to the legislative or executive branches of government invites nothing but a violation of separation of powers for which the people pay the price in at best having ineligible candidates elected to national office and at worst creating serious safety and national security consequences.

Second, Congress does not have constitutional power to define the “natural born Citizen” clause. The clause already has a settled definition which exists under American national common law which informs that the clause means a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring); Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830); Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830; Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniels concurring); Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875); Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879); United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890); United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898) (all confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 of the The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758) definition of the “natural-born citizens” who “are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” For Congress to give us a different definition would be tantamount to amending the Constitution without constitutional amendment.

Third, the Constitution places it upon the states to protect the integrity of the electoral process. The election of the president involves 51 different elections. With the exception of the District of Columbia, whose exclusive jurisdiction rests with Congress, it is up to each state to make sure that its elections are conducted in accordance with the rule of law. This process includes making sure candidates, whether for local, state, or national office, are both constitutionally and otherwise legally eligible for the office they seek, for there is no federal mechanism to do so.

Fourth, can you imagine our nation spending billions in dollars and political commitment on an election, and then waiting for Congress in Joint Session to tell us if our selection is constitutionally valid? And what’s more, are we going to wait for Congress to nullify the vote of millions of Americans who would have been invited to vote for a constitutionally ineligible candidate, in effect disenfranchising them, should Congress belatedly declare the President-elect to be constitutionally ineligible? On the contrary, what could be easier than a state court ruling on whether a presidential candidate is a “natural born Citizen,” with the issue being fast tracked to the U.S. Supreme Court, all well in advance of great expenditure of dollars and political commitment.

Basic constitutional principles and good old common sense tell us that the question of whether a candidate is a “natural born Citizen” must be decided by the states early in the election process and not later with Congress, which in any event does not have the ultimate constitutional power to decide the issue and whose decision could wreak extreme havoc on the stability of our elections.

Anonymous said...

Mario asked: "Fourth, can you imagine our nation spending billions in dollars and political commitment on an election, and then waiting for Congress in Joint Session to tell us if our selection is constitutionally valid?"

How is that any worse than what happened in 2000 with the Scotus, in effect, deciding who would be president?
In addition, it's a sociological consideration that has no place in a situation meant to follow established rules. Sociological considerations are no more valid in a legal context than are religious considerations. You should be ashamed for having injected such irrelevant considerations into a legal discussion.

It's amazing how capable you are of totally ignore facts that are right in front of your face. The first of which is that native birth is not an element of any imagined definition of natural born citizenship because no definition has ever been formulated by any legally established authority. Descriptions are not definitions!

But perhaps more pertinent to your claim that Congress has no authority regarding the Constitution: ~that is precisely what they swear on all that is holy to protect, and defend. If the first president, being a member of no political party, had been found to be ineligible to serve, on whose shoulders would vetting him before qualifying him would the responsibility rest if not on Congress?
You erroneously argue that simply because state vetting is much preferable, it therefore is the only allowed or legitimate means to vet an election victor. That is false. In case you haven't noticed, the 20th Amendment does not speak about some conference of state political authorities, or state officers vetting the President. It's only point of focus is on the national body of representatives, which is Congress. Congress is the next-to-final stage in eligibility determination.
If Congress fails to do its job to vet the electee then the last line of constitutional fidelity rests with the Supreme Court. If all of the justices agree that the electee is ineligible, it is then their duty to not swear him in. No court below them has authority to over-ride their decision and therefore the electee could not assume the office since he could not be sworn in as constitutionally required since the oath can only be administered by a magistrate, and what magistrate would want to stick his neck out in opposition to a unanimous SCOTUS position?

"Congress does not have the constitutional power to interpret the Constitution and the “natural born Citizen” clause, for that is a judicial function"
That is nonsense. It was Congress that was tasked with interpreting the Constitution, and by its interpretation they were to create the United States government, including the Supreme Court, over which they have far more authority than the court will admit.
Like Bill Cosby's dad said to him: "I brought you into this world and I can take you out."
The Marbury v Madison case is not a constitutional foundation stone. It is something created by the court on top of the foundation of the Constitution, -which bestows no such authority to the SCOTUS.
The founding fathers feared the tyranny of an unaccountable and unlimited judiciary as much as any foreign tyrant. And now their worst fears have come true.
Paying obeisance to limitless SCOTUS authority is extremely dangerous, and yet here you are bowing down to that golden idol by arguing that the oath of office doesn't really mean what it says, instead it means swearing before God and man to preserve and protect the opinions of flawed and biased political hacks appointed by flawed and biased political hacks instead of swearing only to protect the Constitution that any or all of them may despise.

You should apologize for espousing such a position. All branches of government have a sworn duty to defend the Constitution, including Congress.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2013/05/24/class-presidents-u-s-presidents/

Anonymous said...

"the English law...clearly held that native-birth was not sufficient to make a natural born subject and that native-born children to non-subject parents "are no subjects", because they would be "not born under the ligeance of a subject".
To the English, "aliens, while residing in the dominions possessed by the Crown of England, were within the allegiance, the obedience, the faith or loyalty, the protection, the power, the jurisdiction of the English Sovereign" were in fact subjects by local ligeance."

It is false to claim that unnaturalized immigrants are within the faith, loyalty and allegiance of the Crown because those attributes were still owed to their own sovereign. All they were/ are within is the obedience, power, and protection. But those are temporal and local relationships, and NOT life-long subjecthood (as is the case with natural subjects).

Being a natural subject was like being a slave. It was for life with no escape. But being an immigrant subject was like being an indentured servant. Obedience is only owed until the debt is payed, just as obedience is owed to the Crown until one ups and leaves the jurisdiction of the Crown. Slaves can't do that but foreigners can.
No one born of one who owes only temporal obedience would be born owing life-long obedience since such a subject-monarch relationship would not be inherited.
It's not complicated. It's as plain as day. You are what you inherit. That's natural law.
If you are born of natural subjects, then you are one also, regardless of where you exit the womb. If you are born of aliens, then where you are born is of paramount importance because your national membership is then determined by the rule of law, and not the rule of nature.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash or h2ooflife,

The law does not exist in some vacuum. It is based on practical considerations which drive policy which drive law.

I cannot reasonably imagine as you espouse that the Founders and Framers put forth the “natural born Citizen” clause for presidential eligibility, received no debate on the matter, and there was no pre-established definition for the clause.

A description does, indeed, satisfy a definition when that definition calls for that description as necessary and sufficient conditions of the definition.

The rest of your presentation is a straw man. I never said that “Congress has no authority regarding the Constitution.” Rather, I said that the judicial branch of government has the constitutional function under our tripartite form of republican government to interpret the Constitution.

Of course, all branches of government have “a sworn duty to defend the Constitution, including Congress.” But protecting and defending the Constitution is not necessarily interpreting it. And it surely does not mean that Congress has the constitutional power to interpret the Constitution in a judicial sense.

Your first president example can hardly create the rule which you claim. I’m sure the Founders and Framers would have figured out who would have decided Washington’s eligibility. None of that, surely, establishes that Congress decides presidential eligibility to the exclusion of the states.

The 20th Amendment is there as a final federal legislative branch safety measure. It does not trump the states’ power and duty to protect the integrity of elections and to do so early in the electoral process for the reasons that I stated.

And yes, the U.S. Supreme Court is there as the final arbiter of presidential eligibility. Below you will see how you contradict yourself on this point.

Telling us how the federal government was initially set up does not prove your point as to what power each branch of government has. Your point is fallacious. After all, it was the people who set up the entire U.S. structure. Are you going to also tell us that the people possess the legislative, executive, and legislative functions to the exclusion of those branches of government?

Your point about Marbury v. Madison makes no sense.

Your attack on the authority of the U.S. Supreme Court also makes no sense, especially given that you earlier told us that the U.S. Supreme Court is the final arbiter of presidential eligibility.

Finally, in your comment to MichaelN, you said: “If you are born of aliens, then where you are born is of paramount importance because your national membership is then determined by the rule of law, and not the rule of nature.” With this statement you have put yourself in check mate with respect to your argument that a “natural born Citizen” is determined only by the father, to the exclusion of the mother and place of birth. But even though you have proven yourself to be wrong, at least you now show understanding of what a “natural born Citizen” is.

Mick said...

Thank you Mr. Apuzzo.

Have you seen this from US v. Reese, 92 US 214, 252 (1876)(at the time that the Electoral Count Act was being debated-- which sought to make the joint Congress' counting of the votes mainly ministerial, and keep controversies out of that body, and decided w/in the states' statutory framework)?

"It is the state that speaks and acts through its agents; although such agents exercise powers they do not possess, or that the state does not possess, and although their action is illegal. Inspectors of elections represent the state. They exercise the whole power of the state in creating its actual government by the reception of votes and the declaration of the results of the votes. If they willfully and corruptly receive illegal votes, reject legal votes, MAKE FALSE CERTIFICATES WHEREBY A USURPER OBTAINS AN OFFICE, the act is in each case the act of the state, and the result must be abided by UNTIL CORRECTED BY THE ACTION OF THE COURTS. No matter how erroneous, how illegal or corrupt, may be their action, if it is upon the subject which they are appointed to manage, it binds all parties as the action of the state until legal measures are taken to annul it.” United States v. Reese, 92 U.S. 214, 252 (1875)

Also can you comment on the filing for Writ of Mandamus in the link above (Fla. Supreme Court).

How about A1S5? (Congress is responsible for the "QUALIFICATIONS OF ITS OWN MEMBERS")

How about Federalist 68?
(Obama Sr was "an improper ascendant" (IMPROPER ANCESTOR, who gave IMPROPER FOREIGN INFLUENCE).

How about the fact the members of the Government are barred from making the choice, and their discretion only comes into play if both the President elect and VP elect "Shall have failed to qualify" (It is future perfect tense, and describes what action should be taken AFTER the determination of ineligibility-- not that they should determine eligibility--- see A20)

Also see US Code 3 S. 19:
The "PERSON ACTING AS PRESIDENT" can be removed due to "INABILITY"--- which can mean "not legally qualified".
Amendment 25 describes purely ministerial duty on the part of Congress in securing the line of succession, and never describes ANY discretion by that body in determining the eligibility of the President. Political questions involve discretion by a body of goverment or given to a public officer by statute.

Thank you for your time.

Unknown said...

i am happy to see that more people are seeing how corrupt the obama gangsters are which is not a surprise to anyone who has studied this crew. Can you imagine General of the Armies and our first President, George Washington, not doing everything humanly possible to save our people in benghazi? The obama gang ordered a stand down and then went around lying to us about it. We have lying psychopaths in power but i am hoping this fraud will be back in hawaii for good next year although prison would be better. The tea party and birthers have known for 4 years that barry is a serial liar and criminal

Anonymous said...

Mario, you use words too glibbly. You cannot say that policy drives law as if such words define reality. The words of laws "drive" law, -not policy choices that led to the laws.
The 14th Amendment is a perfect example. It did not mean when written what the Supreme Court later interpreted it to mean. But its words, not the policy behind them, was what the Wong opinion was based on. No one has any authority to look at the words of a law and say that they do not mean what they say because the policy behind the law intended something different.

What was intended is relevant in interpreting ambiguity, but if there is none, then the words themselves determine the meaning, and not sociological or policy considerations from long gone or recent eras.

As for the natural born citizenship clause, I do not believe there was any debate on the issue, nor any lack of universal understanding of what the words mean.
You erroneously search for a meaning to a phase, -but to the authors and the framers, there was no phrase, -there was only three common English words, the meaning of which was easily understood by all.
I've explained it in a thousands ways, -all without any need for legal adventurism to construe everyday words that are understood very easily by any mind not bent on contorting them into possessing solely a legal definition. Yes, I'm saying that your mind is bent by your purely legal perspective.

It's like the gravity of a giant sun that bends the straight and true path of light that passes near it. The light doesn't know it's path has been bent, but the invisible powerful gravity nevertheless has altered its natural course. So it is with your thinking. The law is the gravity that bends it.

As I advised previously regarding definitions, you do not even comprehend what a definition is. Wikipedia will greatly enlighten you if you are willing to be enlightened. A definition does not "call for" anything to "satisfy" anything. It merely follows the inviolable rules for establishing unmistakable clarity. No description does that because no description includes the language needed for complete disambiguation.

"But protecting and defending the Constitution is not necessarily interpreting it." It is every citizen's duty to read and remember the rights guaranteed by the Constitution and its amendments, especially the Bill of Rights. No American needs a court or judge to tell them what "shall not infringe" means, nor what the 9th and 10th Amendments mean.

You grossly misconstrue the role of the high court regarding the Constitution. Their only role is to arbitrate disputes as to what the words of the Constitution mean. It's not to tell Americans what they mean when there is no dispute. Plain English comprehension covers that, and it is the duty of all officers and representatives of the People to stand fast to the plain and obvious meaning of the words of the Constitution, even in the face of unconstitutional opinions of the high court, such as Roe v Wade, and Wickard v Filburn.

The nation often needs defending against the scurrilous rulings of the Progressive ideologues of the court. They are often traitors to the Constitution, and going along with their treason makes one complicit in it. Hence the requirements of the oath of office. It is an oath of Allegiance, -not to a King, nor a government, nor a court, nor a nation, but to the Constitution. That means knowing and understanding what it says, and not out-sourcing one's thinking to others, nor surrendering to bastardization of its clear meaning and limitations as passive sheeple.

Anonymous said...


"The 20th Amendment is there as a final federal legislative branch safety measure. It does not trump the states’ power and duty..."

Agreed. I didn't imply that it did otherwise. My point was to counter the impression you created that the States are the sole arbiters of office qualification. They are the first and foremost line of obedience to the Constitution, but usurpers always ignore the limitations of law, and so a federal line of defense was authored and ratified by the People. Congress is obligated to exercise that authority if a violation of the Constitution occurs and is allowed by the States. But Congress is derelict in its duty, and ignored it twice in the '08 and '12 elections. No one wanted to touch the issue of a minority President being unqualified, -not after what the nation saw following the death of MLK and the acquittal of the officers who beat Rodney King.

"And it surely does not mean that Congress has the constitutional power to interpret the Constitution in a judicial sense."
It depends on the limits one places on what "judicial" means. If it means judging what something means with no disagreement, then Congress absolutely has that authority and is obligated to exercise it. If it means judging in the face of serious disagreement, only then is the judiciary called on to settle the dispute.

"...it was the people who set up the entire U.S. structure". The people set up nothing. All they did was put a check next to the yes box or the no box. Congress was constitutionally charged with passing legislation to carry out the duties and authority given to the government by the Constitution. It did the establishing of the structure via the authority of the legislation they passed.

I wrote: “If you are born of ALIENS, then *where* you are born is of paramount importance..." Mario, you overlooked all the words preceding the word "where", -so what I actually wrote had nothing at all to do with natural citizens.

Anonymous said...

"the “natural born Citizen” clause. ..has a settled definition which exists under American national common law."

Mario, your stance is like an inverted pyramid. All of the structure is resting on a small tip, and in your case, the tip is the inherently flawed miscontruence of a couple of words that Vattel wrote. To expose your erroneous logic, all one need do as ask the simple question: "Under American Common Law, what exactly does 'les naturels' mean? Does it mean the same thing as "les indigenes"? Do they not simply mean "the natural inhabitants" (of a country)?

Honestly, you do your reputation no service by connecting the words "natural born citizen" to anything that Vattel wrote since he never wrote those words. So how can you turn to him for a "definition" of what a phase means when he never used it? That is such defective thinking.
If you want to define it you have to return to natural law and American Common English, not human law nor human opinion about a phrase that never existed until the ages passed and people lost perspective.

js said...

h2ooflife is just another Obot.

Playing games with words to deceive has no dignity h2o. Claiming that Vattel never wrote the words "natural born citizen" is like saying that the Jews in Israel never spoke the word "Jesus".

While both may be true, pandering your willful ignorance based on misinterpretation is, at the least, another lie. You omit to distinguish transliteration of the meanings you dispute, because if you did, you would not have a leg to stand on. At this point, the only thing obvious is that Billy Clinton was smarter than you, and he only disputed the meaning of "is".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

js,

Indeed, Adrien Nash or h2ooflife is like your typical Obot, so full of inconsistencies and contradictions that when they are brought to his attention they make his head spin. He responds by adjusting what he said and playing like that is what he said all along.

I have long ago maintained that Mr. Nash was really an Obot, a false flag. I see that you agree with me.

js said...

Absolutely.

It gets old seeing the same thing over and over from those critters. Sometimes ya just gotta smack em' in the head a few times, but they go away and make room for the next one to show.

They don't have that sacred honor that our founding fathers talked about. It goes a lot further than word games we catch them at, its in the persons soul!

Unknown said...

vattel never wrote that haha but he sure as hell wrote indigenes and as mario has pointed out the natives (indigenes) or natural born citizens are the same in minor, born in a country to parents who are its citizens. What else would they be? Is the child of a canadian tourist born in usa a native of US just because they happened to be born here? obots do major contortions and distortions to make the fraud look eligible

Carlyle said...

Serious Question:

It is looking more and more like Eric Holder will be proved to be, not only shady, but an actual criminal.

In which case what can be done about it? He can resign or be dismissed, and presumably impeached. But in a truly practical sense, can the highest law official in the land be convicted and punished?

Who would do it? How? Who would have jurisdiction. Besides, The Obama could pardon or commute any possible sentence or punishment.

On an even bigger scale, suppose The Obama himself were to be proved criminal? In the extreme case, suppose a current or future President were to commit blatant treason? What is the appropriate punishment and who could apply it?

The only answer that I can figure out - i.e. they are essentially and practically above the law - leaves me frightened for our future.

Carlyle said...

PS - do you think that is a key reason why congress, party officials, and other leaders refuse to even discuss The Obama's bona fides?

Do they KNOW that even if everything we surmise is true, that absolutely nothing can be done about it?

To apply an old Zen proverb: "If there is no solution, there is no problem".

js said...


in·dig·e·nous
Origin: 1640–50; < Latin indigen ( a ) native, original inhabitant ( indi-, by-form of in- in-2 (cf. indagate) + -gena, derivative from base of gignere to bring into being; cf. genital, genitor) + -ous

It would seem that being 0indigenous would require the child's parents to be native, as in original inhabitants of the region/nation/state for the child to be an indigenous, or natural citizen in accordance with Vattel.

The meaning of the word suggests that a child of a foreign parent cannot produce an indigenous citizen of the state the parent is foreign too.

js said...

I would suggest that the duty of the AG is to the US Constitution, and to the people of the US, not to the person in the Oval Office.

The Constitution gave the POTUS the ability to pick who would fill that position, but it does not allow the POTUS to require that person to omit enforcing the laws of this country. In fact, both are sworn to uphold our laws, and a breach of that solemn duty should be cause for removal. Both the POTUS and the AG can be removed for cause, for inability or their refusal to perform their duty in accordance with their oath of office.

Unknown said...

Mr Apuzzo. You are a very smart man.
SHEEPLE don't get it yet...NOBODY cares where Cruz was born!
Obama has made a President Cruz possible!
I am a Patriot who no longer cares, So What! Cruz told us the truth
unlike usurper Obama! Since America has suffered through usurper
pResident Obama's reign of terror it no longer matters where a potential
President was born until we elect President Cruz! SHEEPLE must be so
worried about Ted Cruz that they have become what they hated the most,
Birthers!
Payback is going to be so beautiful!

Jim Delaney said...

I was told that the term "natural born citizen" was excised from the 1795 Nationality Act? True? If so, what was the reason, context?

Jim Delaney said...

Which political entity, state or federal, is empowered to render an authoritative, binding decision regarding the meaning of "natural born citizen"? My understanidng is that courts lack jurisdiction and congress is reluctant to address the issue. It really needs to be timely, authoritatively, thoughtfully and properly resolved to the satisfaction of the citizenry. The lingering arguments and uncertainties need to be put to rest. What do you think?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Jim Delaney,

The Constitution does not define a natural born citizen. Rather, it is American national common law, borrowing its definition from the law of nations, which does. Under that common law, the term “natural born citizen” has always meant that being born a citizen is necessary, not that it is sufficient for one to be a natural born citizen. Under that common law, the necessary and sufficient conditions and therefore the means or mechanism by which to be a natural born citizen was being born in a country to parents who were its citizens. Minor v. Happersett (1875). Under this common law, all other persons were “aliens or foreigners.” Minor. Congress, as did the British Parliament, given that these children were aliens under American national common law as they were under English common law, wanted to provide for the citizenship of children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents. So, the First Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1790 provided that children born abroad of U.S. citizen parents (born to parents who were both U.S. citizens) "shall be considered as natural born citizens." This Act was a naturalization Act passed under Congress’s Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 naturalization powers and whose language meant no more than that these children were given through naturalization the privileges, immunities, and rights of the true natural born citizens, not that they were in fact natural born citizens. In any event and which is avoided like the plague by those who push the 1790 Naturalization Act as proof that Ted Cruz, born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and non-U.S. citizen father, is a natural born citizen, the 1795 Naturalization Act, passed by the Third Congress under the leadership of then-Representative James Madison and with the approval of many Founders and Framers still sitting in Congress and President George Washington, removed the natural born citizen language and replaced it with "shall be considered as citizens of the United States," which is the language that has remained in all of Congress's naturalization Acts to the present, including in the 1952 Naturalization Act which made Ted Cruz a citizen of the United States “at birth.” The 1795 Naturalization Act also still required that the child born out of the United States, to be a citizen of the United States, be born to parents who were both U.S. citizens.

Madison, Washington, and the other Founders and Framers were well aware that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, only a natural born citizen was to be eligible to be President. Hence, the fact that they specifically removed with such precision the natural born citizen language from Congress’s naturalization Act could only mean that they made it clear, if not in the 1790 Naturalization Act, that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were to be considered only as citizens of the United States and not as natural born citizens and therefore were not to be eligible to be President. Following the lead of the Third Congress, Congress has never again in any of its naturalization Acts, used the clause natural born citizen. Rather, it only uses citizen of the United States which standing alone is a status which under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 does not qualify one to be President. What this Founding era legislative activity proves is that one had to be born in the United States in order to be a natural born citizen. Moreover, the 1790 and 1795 Acts also treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. This understanding by the First and Third Congress was consistent with American national common law which provided that only children born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents were natural born citizens.

Jim Delaney said...

SO MUCH information and legalese, but to simplify the matter don't we have to look to original meaning and intent? For me, it comes down to this question: what did the framers actually (in their words) mean by "natural born citizen", and to what specific evidence can we point which manifestly, conclusively and precisely defines what the Framers meant and intended by that term? Was anything specifically written or otherwise recorded by the Framers regarding the meaning of NBC mentioned in Madison's notes, the Federalist papers, or the state ratifying documents? For me, everything else is hokum, extrapolation and interpretation. Deliciously erudite but subject to relentless counter-argumentation. If we really knew exactly and irrefutably what NBC meant to the Framers, the issue would be resolved. Well, at least for me it would be, and probably many others as well.

Jim Delaney said...

Mark Levin, with whom I agree nearly 70% of the time, is clearly a Cruz supporter. Since Trump broached the possibility that Cruz might not be eligible, Mark is going positively bonkers over the media's sudden "crazy", "kooky", "unfounded" discussion about Cruz's eligibility. Mark's extremely exercised over it, and judging from his commentary on XM 125 it is clear to me that he hasn't thought it through studiously and dispassionately. Constantly conflates citizen and NBC and is absolutely convinced he's right and everyone else is nuts.

Anyway, my point: he says he's willing to debate anyone on his show regarding this issue. So here it is: MY LIFE WOULD BE COMPLETE WERE EITHER YOU OR Dr. Titus to take him up on his challenge. Don't know if that's something which at least mildly attracts you, but, boy, it would be some show!!! And talk about a public service to boot! Wow! Would you consider it?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Jim Delaney,

I have accepted Mark Levine's challenge to debate him on the air on the meaning of a natural born citizen and whether Ted Cruz meets that definition. I have posted my comment at my most recent article at this blog. You can see my response there.

Jim Delaney said...

Not meaning to beat a dead horse, but did any of the Framers record in writing their understanding of what natural born citizen means? And did any of them ever, in writing, differentiate between citizen and NBC? Did any of them specifically refer to the "Law of Nations" in determining the meaning of citizen and NBC? (If there only there were tape recorders and videos in those days. Oh well.)

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Jim,

Have you asked Ted Cruz that question?

Jim Delaney said...

Don't know the guy, Mario. And in any event, am not confident his answer would be credible; thus, my reason for asking you, sir.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Jim,

"[D]id any of the Framers record in writing their understanding of what natural born citizen means?"

Minor v. Happersett (1875) said that the Framers got their definition of the clause from the "common-law" the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. Hence, that common law is the Framers record in writing which reveals their understanding of what natural born citizen means.

"[D]id any of them ever, in writing, differentiate between citizen and NBC?

Yes, see Article I and Article II of the Constitution. Also, see the Naturalization Acts of 1790 and 1795. These constitutional provisions and statutes clearly distinguish between a natural born citizen of the United States and a citizen of the United States.

"Did any of them specifically refer to the "Law of Nations" in determining the meaning of citizen and NBC?

The common-law definition of a natural born citizen per Minor is a paraphrase of the law of nations definition of the clause. Founder, Chief Justice John Marshall, in his concurring opinion in The Venus (1814) defined the natives or indigenes" of the United States by relying upon Vattel at Section 212 of The Law of Nations. Hence, the Framers must have referred to the law of nations on the meaning of a natural born citizen as they did for many other matters which needed to be resolved during the yearly years of the republic.

"(If there only there were tape recorders and videos in those days. Oh well.)"

We do not need tape recorders or videos to interpret the Constitution. Rather, we use the historical and legal record to do so.

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