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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

We provide this same exception to jus soli citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment, with children born in the United States under such circumstances, not accepted as being born “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States and therefore not “citizens of the United States.”

People have free will. That includes the free will to determine where to have their babies. If a mother goes abroad to have a baby, she knows that, except for the cases provided for by Vattel and others that may exist under modern international law (babies born in airplanes, balloons, etc.), it will be born in a foreign nation and upon birth, given that the baby is born on the territory of a foreign sovereign nation, will be under that nation’s positive and municipal laws subject to that nation’s laws and political and military allegiance and therefore its jurisdiction. Even if those parents are U.S. citizens, that baby, born with allegiance to a foreign nation (subject to a foreign power), may be a “citizen of the United States” at birth under U.S. Acts of Congress, but that child is not and cannot be a “natural born citizen,” who is defined not under positive or municipal laws, but rather under American constitutional national common law. This is not unjust, given that the parents gave their consent for the child to be born in a foreign land and the foreign nation also gives its consent to have that child accepted as a citizen of the foreign nation.

ajtelles said...

Ai ya yai - redux...


Mario, March 18, 2014 at 4:05 PM, in paragraph 7, A.R.Nash invented another shudda woulda coulda definition for the use of the 14th amendment by the late 1800s SCOTUS regarding the mid 1800s SCOTUS intention for the 14th amendment.

Citizenship Clause - 14th Amendment, §1

and

Naturalization Clause - 14th Amendment, §1

>> http://lib.law.washington.edu/ref/consticlauses.html

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. ...."

It says "born or naturalized ... are citizens...."

A.R.Nash said -

>>"To repeat myself,
>> "the 14th Amendment was misconstrued by the Supreme Court
>> "but its accepted effect was not to naturalize alien-born children,
>> "but to citizen-ize them at birth."

It seems to me that the 14th amendment is referring to natural birth on U.S. soil followed by the newborn cry announcing presence, and naturalization after birth on foreign soil, with the oath on U.S. soil announcing presence, and both the “born” and the “naturalized” are ONLY citizens, since the "naturalization clause" does not refer to an A2S1C5 nbC either explicitly OR implicitly.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, I think I've changed my mind about Stranger/h2ooflife/A.R.Nash/a.r.nash.

He seems to serve a useful purpose, and I mean that in a friendly sense, as if a classroom full of students is listening to an erudite professor who is challenged by a student who does not want clarification but presumes to instruct the professor, since on your public forum, nash's stream of consciousness inventions, such as "citizen-ize them at birth" sometimes helps readers of your forum, with nash's comments and your tutorials, to see more clearly the original intent of the actual words used by the original birthers and the later SCOTUS opinions.

Well, at least, I learn something from your exchanges with Stranger/h2ooflife/A.R.Nash/a.r.nash.



Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

MichaelN said...

Stranger is using this blog as a testing-ground, sounding-board and as a source for gathering ideas for use on his own blog and to develop his proposed hard-copy and e-book publications.

He just keeps bouncing back ad nauseam, with his multi-page barrages of his la-la-land re-invented pro-rata theories, no matter how many times he is shown and it is proven that per US laws, BOTH native-birth AND birth to US citizen parents are REQUIRED & ESSENTIAL qualities to make a US Constitutional Article II "natural born Citizen".

@ Stranger.
It is proven fact and you know it!.... that US laws require BOTH native-birth and parental citizenship to make an Article II "natural born Citizen".

If you don't like it, then too bad.

Kindly spare us your multi-page ad nauseam, nonsense drivel, spewing your denial and distaste of these FACTS over everyone else.

Go find a park and a soap-box, and give us a break!

ajtelles said...

Oops - mistake...

Correction -

The "shudda woulda coulda definition for the use of the 14th amendment by the late 1800s SCOTUS regarding the "mid 1800s SCOTUS" intention for the 14th amendment" should read "mid 1800s U.S. Congress" intention for the 14th amendment.

Art

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"There are several things wrong with you argument. First, Unknown has not responded to your argument so she must accept it."

Does that same rule apply to you, Mr. Apuzzo? Consider all the blog comment threads in which you have participated. Is it the case that whenever you have not responded to an arguments, whether addressed to you or not, you accept that argument?

I don't take a position on whether George Washington was an Article II natural-born citizen. I remember hearing, long before I had heard of Obama, that the Article II grandfather clause was specifically aimed at Alexander Hamilton, and perhaps others who, like Hamilton, were not natural-born British subjects. I've not investigated as I don't see any particular relevance. Nor do I see any chance of resolving whether the natural-born Founders qualified as Article II natural-born citizens, because the grandfather clause eliminated any need to consider the issue.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Not only are you a terrible reader, but you are also a terrible chef."

Left a bitter taste in your mouth, did I?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It does not matter how you cut and slice the White House bread, today a 'citizen of the United States' is not eligible to be President, for only a 'natural born citizen' is."

You *still* don't get it? An article II natural-born citizen *is* a citizen of the United states, though the converse is not universally true. *Some* citizens of the United States are not eligible. Also, some article II natural-born citizens are not eligible.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here is the wording of the controlling constitutional provision which can be found at Article II, Section 1, Clause 5:
'No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.'"

And here, Mr. Apuzzo, is you own presentation of your statement at issue:

"You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President." -- Mario Apuzzo Esq., this thread.

No, Mr. Apuzzo, that's not what the grandfather clause said.

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Mario, it is irrelevant what a government's policy is toward the birth of its citizens' children on the soil of other nations. What government policies are has no connection to the laws of nature.

It does not matter that the parents are the ministers or soldiers of the king or are criminals.

If they are not domiciled within a foreign land then they remain subject to the government of their homeland where they have their domicile.

The law of natural belonging does not disappear merely because they traveled to some temporary foreign location and happened to give birth there.

They are still subject to their sovereign. They must still obey the laws of their nation.
They are not a part of the foreign society and have no roots in it, and no obligation toward it.

Their child is a natural new member of their country and government policy has no relevance to that natural fact.

Notice I do not say "legal fact" since legal facts are irrelevant to natural facts.
If the government passed a law saying that your children do not belong to you, that would be a legal fact, but not a natural fact.

So it is with natural citizenship. it is not provided, granted, bestowed, allowed, nor transmitted via anything legal. It comes via natural inheritance, just like the membership of your children in your own personal family.
Its the same with the national family.
It's beyond the authority of government to regulate.

That regulatory authority begins and ends with the membership of foreigners, outsiders, -not insiders, not members, -not natural natives nor natural citizens.

Those outsiders that government must and can regulate constitute only about 2-4 percent of the nation's population. The other 96-98% are outside of the authority of the government they established. They are above the government, not beneath it as its slaves or subjects.

Is this really over the heads of everyone here?

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

quoting Mario regarding foreign-born American children: "Even if those parents are U.S. citizens, that baby, born with allegiance to a foreign nation (subject to a foreign power), may be a “citizen of the United States” at birth under U.S. Acts of Congress,..."

Mario, come down from your delusional ivory tower to the ground of reality so you can grasp the fact that no baby can ever be
"born with allegiance to a foreign nation".

Allegiance is loyalty and obedience willfully given. That's all it is. It is not subjection to the martial power of the State. Subjection can be either voluntary or involuntary. There is no such thing as involuntary allegiance.

Why do you insist on conflating the two?

"~but that child is not and cannot be a “natural born citizen,” who is defined not under positive or municipal laws, but rather under American constitutional national common law.

So you define natural citizenship by a definition of your own creation by an interpretation that is your own misinterpretation.

That is not what any rational mind would consider to be the basis of establishing a foundation for your nativist theory that marries competing origins of nationality.
"Jus Soli and Jus Sanguinis, I now pronounce you man & wife."

No! Never! They are brother and sister, or more like brother and brother. They cannot be married. They are forever separate and apart.

"This is not unjust," WRONG! That is the poster child of what is unjust.
The unnatural, unconstitutional disenfranchisement of natural children of American is absolutely unfair, and that is precisely why the framers in the first Congress tried to rectify their oversight regarding foreign-born Americans.

They wanted, and did protect the natural birthright of the sons of American Ambassadors' to be equal members of their nation with their brothers and peers, and equally eligible to be President.

You nonsense continues further but isn't worth responding to.

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

MichaelN said...

"Stranger is using this blog as a testing-ground, sounding-board and as a source for gathering ideas..."

Who the hell is "Stranger"?

If you do not know my name by now, then you can't be fixed.

"that US laws require BOTH native-birth and parental citizenship to make an Article II "natural born Citizen"

If you do not know by now that there are no such laws, then you cannot be fixed. You are possessed of a political quasi-religion of nativist origin, and it's founded on nothing but pure imagination and contrary to fundamental American principles, which I have explained to those who have a brain that is capable of independent thought.

I would be silent if anything had been "proven". To think that the truth has been "proven" is more evidence that you can't be fixed.

Have a nice day!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Poor Unknown/NotLinda, there are so many things that she still does not understand.

She still does not understand that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that for those born before the adoption of the Constitution, satisfying the 35-year age and 14-year residency requirements, being a “citizen of the United States” was sufficient to be President.

She still does not understand that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, no person who is not a “natural born citizen” is eligible to be President.

She still does not understand that THEREFORE, for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, being a “citizen of the United States” is not sufficient to be eligible to be President.

She still does not understand that THEREFORE, for Obama and Cruz to be eligible to be President, they have to prove they are “natural born citizens,” and not only “citizens of the United States.”

She still does not understand that essential to demonstrating that they are natural born citizens and eligible to be President, Obama and Cruz have to THEREFORE identify a constitutional law (not a statute) which makes them natural born citizens and not just citizens of the United States.

She still does not understand that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) informed that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment, which defines a “citizen of the United States,” defined a natural born citizen.

She still does not understand that the same Minor v. Happersett Court informed that the Framers of the Constitution defined a natural born citizen under the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution.

She still does not understand that the same Minor v. Happersett Court said that that common law defined a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth (paraphrasing from Emer de Vattel in Section 212 from his The Law of Nations (1758)).

She still does not understand that THEREFORE, the Fourteenth Amendment, neither through its text nor its intent, changed this common law definition of a natural born citizen.

She still does not understand that U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, which explained how the colonies and states early defined their citizens under the English common law and which used that experience to define who was “subject to the jurisdiction” of the United States and therefore a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” (which we have already seen is not sufficient to be eligible to be President), did not disagree with Minor’s national definition of a natural born citizen and say that the Framers defined a natural born citizen under the English common law (which relied upon birth in the country and did not require citizen parents) or by some other law.

She still does not understand that Acts of Congress do not and cannot amend the Constitution and in any event, did not depart from this common law which the Framers used to define a natural born citizen, but on the contrary, have all been, since 1790, consistent with the common law definition of a natural born citizen.

She still does not understand that neither Obama nor Cruz can satisfy this American constitutional national definition of a natural born citizen because Obama, assuming he was born in the United States, was born to a U.S. citizen mother, but to a non-U.S. citizen father, and Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and a non-U.S. citizen father.
And finally, she still does not understand that since Obama and Cruz are neither natural born citizens nor citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, neither of them are eligible to be President.

So, all in all, it looks like Unknown/NotLinda has a lot of understanding to do.

ajtelles said...

Clarity vs. Confusion...

Mario, on March 15, 2014 at 7:48 PM you clearly responded in part 1 of a 3 part tutorial to Unknown a/k/a NotLinda -

>> "Our early Congress in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 confirmed for us who were the natural born citizens.

>> "In these acts, Congress naturalized qualifying adults who were born out of the United States to alien parents.

>> "As is confirmed by the James Madison Administration in the James McClure Citizenship Case of 1811, in these acts Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born.

>> "It also naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents.

>> "In short, Congress naturalized all qualifying adults and children, except those who were born in the United States to citizen parents.

>> "Congress did not provide for their potential naturalization because, being natural born citizens, they did not need to be naturalized either at birth or after birth."


On March 19, 2014 at 2:50 AM, Unknown, you said to Mario something that is confusing -

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:

>> "[...]

>> "You *still* don't get it?

>> "An article II natural-born citizen *is* a citizen of the United states, though the converse is not universally true.

>> "*Some* citizens of the United States are not eligible.

>> "Also, some article II natural-born citizens are not eligible."

- - - - - - - - -

Huh, Unknown?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

ajtelles said...

Who is "Stranger"...

Today, March 19, 2014 at 5:50 AM, A.R.Nash, you, h2ooflife, asked MichaelN,

>> "Who the hell is "Stranger"?

>> "If you do not know my name by now, then you can't be fixed."


On March 12, 2014 at 2:00 PM, you said,

>> h2ooflife said...
>> a.r.nash expounds:

On March 12, 2014 at 6:00 PM, you said,

>> Stranger said...
>> a.r.nash writes:

On March 14, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Mario addressed you as

>> Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...
>> Stranger/Adrien Nash,

- - - - - - - - -

So Stranger, since you did not correct Mario's connection of "Stranger" with "Adrien Nash", then you Stranger must be Adrien Nash, aka a.r.nash who "writes" and who "expounds," and aka h2ooflife.

If "Stranger" is not you a.r.nash/A.R.Nash, aka h2ooflife, then who do you think you are?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ajtelles,

Unknown/NotLinda concedes that "[so]me citizens of the United States are not eligible” to be President. With that benign concession, Unknown implies that some citizens of the United States are eligible. But the constitutional problem for Unknown is that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, no one who is not a “natural born citizen” shall be eligible to be President. What that means is that Unknown’s word game with “citizen of the United States” does not help her, for being a citizen of the United States is insufficient to establish eligibility. Rather, given the exclusionary command of Article II, she has to demonstrate that Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens. And the best part is that she has to produce a law which allows them to be natural born citizens given their birth circumstances.

I already know that she has no law which makes Obama and Cruz natural born citizens and she will therefore produce no such law. Rather, she will just keep playing her word game with “citizen of the United States.”

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

FYI, if you are not signed in with any openID service when posting, the blog labels you "Stranger" automatically.
It is not a name that one selects for one's self.

ajtelles said...

Whew...

On March 19, 2014 at 8:17 PM h200flife posted -

>> "h2ooflife said...
>> "A.R.Nash writes:

>> "FYI, if you are not signed in with any open ID service when posting, the blog labels you "Stranger" automatically.

>> "It is not a name that one selects for one's self.


- - - - - - - - -

Whew (said while wiping brow).

Well, at least WE now know that YOU know that "Stranger" IS A.R.Nash and h2ooflife, so your question to MichaelN on March 19, 2014 at 5:50 AM was intended as rhetorical and not personal.

Right?

>> "Who the hell is "Stranger"?

>> "If you do not know my name by now, then you can't be fixed."

If your question and statement was rhetorical, a response to your "you can't be fixed" personification is not required.

If what you wrote was personal, an apology would be appropriate and cordial, since you have indicated that you DID know that YOU are the "stranger" who wrote on March 19, 2014 at 5:50 AM

>> "h2ooflife said...
>> "A.R.Nash writes:
[...]
>> "Have a nice day!

- - - - - - - - -


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

ajtelles said...

Unknown’s word game...

Mario, today at 7:38 PM you clarified Unknown's word game:

>> "I already know that she has no law which makes Obama and Cruz natural born citizens and she will therefore produce no such law.

>> "Rather, she will just keep playing her word game with 'citizen of the United States.' "+

- - - - - - - - -

Maybe Unknown will remove her cloaking device and clarify with credible sources, or even just one source, what she means with what I quoted today at 9:37 AM:

>> "Also, some article II natural-born citizens are not eligible."



Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"You invent stuff when you say that Minor said that Congress has the 'constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were its citizens.' That question was not before the Court.”

As I already proved with direct quotation, you tell not the truth when you say I invented stuff. You are right that it was not the question before the Court in Minor, and if you can quote me ever saying it was then I will retract. What's more, looking at the issue before the Court, we see that you, Mr. Apuzzo, are the one trying to use dicta as precedent.


Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"In any event, Congress can consider such children as 'natural born citizens,' which is what it did in 1790. But that means nothing, for I can consider you as my brother, but that does not make you my brother in fact."

Can you point to where the Court recognized your power to make such a provision? Or are you assuming your own power is generally analogous to that of Congress and the Supreme Court?


Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"Hence, Congress surely then also has the power to consider such children no longer 'natural born citizens,' which is what it specifically did starting in 1795 and so continuing to today."

Then you should be able to cite Congress saying specifically that they are no longer natural-born citizens. You cannot, because you and not I are the one inventing stuff.


Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"It is also contrary to fundamental constitutional law that you would suggest that Congress can amend the meaning of a 'natural born citizen,' which is amending the Constitution, with a statute rather than with a duly ratified constitutional amendment."

I ask that you stop making up positions for me, particularly ones contrary to those I've actually taken. I've explained to you over and over that my position, and that of a broad consensus of legal scholars, is that "natural born citizen" means citizen from the moment of birth. Can you cite me ever saying that Congress changed it, or could change it? Or are just inventing stuff again?

ajtelles said...

The cloaking device is off ...

Mario, today at 10:36 AM, Unknown adduced "... a broad consensus of legal scholars, ..." to buttress her position that " 'natural born citizen' means citizen from the moment of birth."

>> "I ask that you stop making up positions for me, particularly ones contrary to those I've actually taken.

>> "I've explained to you over and over that my position, and
>> "that of a broad consensus of legal scholars,

>> "is that "natural born citizen" means citizen from the moment of birth.

>> "Can you cite me ever saying that Congress changed it, or could change it?

>> "Or are just inventing stuff again?"

- - - - - - - - - -

Point 1 -

Mario, Unknown should adduce at least ONE "legal scholar" by name and sources, only ONE, just ONE, legal scholar who has defined and defended an A2S1C5 "natural born Citizen" as a "...citizen from the moment of birth" with the intent of suggesting that the 1787 original birthers like John Jay and George Washington and Alexander Hamilton ALSO meant what Unknown and ALL other Democratic Obirthers and Republican "Obirthers" by association are suggesting.

The Obirthers are suggesting that birth on U.S. soil with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent (Democrats = BHO), or birth on foreign soil with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent (Republican = Sen. Cruz), and either scenario is sufficient to be Article II eligible to be POTUS and commander of the military.

Point 2 -

A second question for Unknown is, does she know of at least ONE scholar in the core of or in the penumbra of "... a broad consensus of legal scholars, ..." who will, with their own comprehensive sources that substantiate their erudition, contend with your erudite definition and defense of 'natural born Citizen' as meaning born ONLY on U.S. soil and born with TWO U.S. citizen parents who are, in 1787 America when the husband's citizenship determined the wife's citizenship status if she is foreign born and their children's consequent citizenship, married to each other BEFORE the child is born, and BOTH parents are U.S. citizens BEFORE the child is born?

The two points are clear.
Considering the 1787 original intent of the 1787 original birthers, the two points imply, in 1787 America for them and for their posterity, from generation to generation, election to election, POTUS to POTUS, the 'origian intent' is ONLY born on U.S. soil and ONLY born with two U.S. citizen parents who are married to each other BEFORE the child is born to them.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

Anonymous said...

A.R. Nash writes:

Mario wrote;
“A law born citizen of the United States is any child who by the Fourteenth Amendment (aided by an Act of Congress which is 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a))….”

thalightguy pointed out; "8 U.S.C is not an Act of Congress. (8 U.S.C is merely non-positive law.)
There are currently 26 positive law titles in the Code [which] are identified with an asterisk, but Title 8 does not have an asterisk.”

It is a misunderstanding of law to fails to grasp that not all legal code is actual legislated act by constitutional authority.

Elements of legal code, as well as individual acts, are written for the purpose of stating facts for the record, -of illuminating truth and clarifying questions, -not of making new legal facts by legislative authority.

Anyone who can understand that Title 8 was written solely to bring together in one place all American laws dealing with citizenship, should also be able to understand that the first Congress inserted into the first Naturalization Act in 1790 language which served the exact same purpose as Title 8.

Statements were written into it for clarifying confusion and misconceptions; -not to make new facts, but to state existing facts.
What were the existing facts? Children take after their father and born with his membership in his nation.
By stating that the children of naturalized foreigners were to be considered as U.S. citizens, was not an exercise of citizenship authority, but merely a codification of natural law.

Also, clarifying that ALL children of Americans are U.S. citizens by nature, was no more than a similar codification or affirmation of natural law.
American children are Americans by their inherited political nature, -not by the intervention of lawmakers.
Even little children know that they belong to their parents naturally, and to whatever group they belong to as well because the two are naturally inseparable.

Anonymous said...

Art wrote to me: "If your question and statement was rhetorical, a response to your "you can't be fixed" personification is not required."

You misquoted me, albeit unintentionally. I did not say "you can't be fixed", which would be a personification.
I said "IF". No "if statement" is personal because it is not conclusive nor accusatory.

It's great when Mario puts Unknown in his place, and equally great when Unknown does the same to Mario, as with this:
Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"Hence, Congress surely then also has the power to consider such children no longer 'natural born citizens,' which is what it specifically did starting in 1795 and so continuing to today."

Unknown replied: Then you should be able to cite Congress saying specifically that they are no longer natural-born citizens. You cannot, because you, and not I, are the one inventing stuff.

Yes, Mario is quite the inventor. He has to be to try to make his Earth-centered solar system-like theory credible. So much to explain that can't be explained.
But that goes for Unknown as well. He proffers that consensus opinion says that any one with citizenship from birth is a natural citizen by birth. Well, that is asinine on its face because of the word "natural".

My problem is that both sides invent and embrace the baseless alsehood that the words "natural born citizen" are a term of legal artifice and can therefore be defined anyway their dogma desires.

With that as their basic mind-set, you can't convince the Kool-aid drinkers on either side that they are both wrong.
All that is real is natural citizenship. Everything else is the invented fiction of clever minds operating under bias blindness while worshiping at the alters of Consensus Opinion and Positive Law.

thalightguy said...

All naturalized citizens are citizens by naturalization. But, are all persons who are not “born in the U.S. and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” who acquire citizenship at birth by “8 U.S.C. 1401(b-h)” also naturalized citizens?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

You just love making straw man arguments.

You asserted that the Court in Minor said that Congress had the power to make natural born citizens.

To prove you wrong I said two things: Minor did not say Congress had such power. To support my statement I also said that the issue of such Congress’s power was not before the Court. I did not say that you said that the issue of Congress’s power was before the Court.

Thus, whether you said or did not say that the issue of Congress’s power was before the Court changes nothing, for the bottom line issue is whether Congress has the power to make natural born citizens which it does not. It is that aspect of the argument which you do not address. Rather, you try to get around your failure by telling us that I accuse you of making some statement, which we know you did not make, but at the same time I did not accuse you of making. So, I never said that you made any such statement and you still lose for saying that Congress has the power to make natural born citizens.

So, you coming on here and trying to fake your way through this thing like Stranger/Adrien Nash is a real laugh.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda likes to spread the Obot lie that Minor was about voting and not about citizenship. I feel comfortable saying that it is a lie given the following.

Virginia Minor, a woman, was born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of her birth. Missouri’s constitution and laws prohibited women from voting. Still, she tried to register to vote in Missouri, but the state registrar, Reese Happersett, denied that right. She then sued Happersett.

Minor argued that since she was a citizen, the Fourteenth Amendment gave and protected her right to vote which Missouri could not deny her. So, the first issue that Minor analyzed was whether Virginia Minor was a citizen. It started with that question because only citizens enjoyed privileges and immunities under the Constitution. Even though the parties conceded that Virginia Minor was a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court set out to prove that she was a citizen without the need to resort to that Amendment, which the Court said did not define a natural born citizen. The Court proved she was a citizen by showing that she was a natural born citizen under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution.

Upon looking at the decision, we can easily see that almost the first half of the decision is devoted to explaining all aspects of American citizenship, including who the original citizens and who the natural born citizens were. The Court also goes into explaining how Congress made more citizens through its naturalization powers. After its thorough historical and legal analysis of American citizenship, it held that Virginia Minor was a citizen without any doubt (being a natural born citizen, of course she was a citizens). But the Court ultimately held that neither being a citizen nor the Fourteenth Amendment brought with them the constitutional right to vote. So, it said that Missouri was within its rights to deny women the right to vote, if that is what its legislature wanted to do.

From what the Court explained, we can see that there was no doubt that Virginia Minor was a citizen because, based on the definition of natural born citizen given by the Court, i.e., a child born in a country to citizen parents, she was a natural born citizen which necessarily made her a citizen. So despite the Court having explained all those aspects of American citizenship, Unknown tries to tell us that Minor was not about citizenship, but rather only about whether women had the right to vote.

Can Unknown/NotLinda tell us one truth? What else do I have to say about her?

ajtelles said...

One truth...

Mario, today at 11:14 PM, in the last sentence you asked,

>> "Can Unknown/NotLinda tell us one truth?"

One "truth" that I am still waiting for is for Unknown to reveal what she means with what she posted on March 19, 2014 at 2:50 AM, and which I quoted on March 19, 2014 at 11:12 PM:

>>>>>>>>>> "Also, some article II natural-born citizens are not eligible."

Now, if Unknown engages in nuanced word play about what "some" is referencing, well, "people get ready, there's a train a comin'" of intellectual cachucha, an Andalusian solo dance in 3/4 time.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

Unknown said...

Mario, if the unananimous supreme court case minor v happersett said all people born in the US are natural born citizens then rest assured the unknown liar would say the case was about citizenship and not voting rights. Barry and cruz were foreign citizens at birth because their fathers were foreign citizens which automatically eliminates them from being US CiC under the NBC clause. Being called a liar by a liar like unknown only means you are on the right track

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thalightguy,

I of II

You said and asked:

“All naturalized citizens are citizens by naturalization. But, are all persons who are not “born in the U.S. and subject to the jurisdiction thereof” who acquire citizenship at birth by “8 U.S.C. 1401(b-h)” also naturalized citizens?

+++++

Naturalization is any process by which a person who is not born with the citizenship status of the state or nation that is doing the naturalization is by that entity given that status as of a certain time which could be as early as from the time of birth or anytime thereafter. The final effect of naturalization is to remove by whatever process is applied a person’s alienage which otherwise prevents that person from being a member or citizen of the naturalizing nation. The effect of naturalization can occur informally as if when done through condition (e.g. revolution or secession), loosely as if when done through judicial decision (e.g. Calvin’s Case (1608) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)), or formally as if when done through application of statutes (e.g. 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a) to (h)) aided by administrative regulations (Code of Federal Regulations) or treaties. For those naturalized after their birth, it also includes the person taking a legally prescribed oath with renunciation of foreign allegiance in all its forms.

Children who are not born in the U.S., or its jurisdictional equivalent, being born beyond the nation’s borders, are not “born in the United States.” Additionally, they are not born only subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Rather, being physically present in a foreign nation as of the time of birth, they are also subject to the jurisdiction of that foreign nation which includes being under the control and power of that nation’s laws and government and under its legal, political, and military obligations and protection. If that child is born to U.S. citizen parents, the U.S. can extend extra-territorial jurisdiction over that child by asserting that it is a U.S. citizen and entitled to the protection of the U.S. But as long as that child remains in the foreign nation or any other nation that is not the U.S., and remains there under internationally accepted norms, the U.S. cannot assert any authority or power over that foreign nation so as to impact upon that child’s life.

Being born under such circumstances and thereby not meeting the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen, i.e., born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth (Minor v. Happersett (1875)), such a child born out of the U.S. is alien born. It is alien born by being born in a foreign nation (by application of jus soli) and in the case of being born to one or two alien parents, also by being born to one or two non-U.S. citizen parent (by application of jus sanguinis). Being alien born, the child is born with allegiance and citizenship to a foreign power.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Congress passed the Act of Congress that is codified at 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(b) to (h) pursuant to its constitutional naturalization powers and nothing more. The statute makes children born out of the U.S. to one or two U.S. citizen parents “citizens of the United States” at birth. This naturalization act is needed to make such persons citizens at birth or what I call law born citizens, because they are not and cannot be natural born citizens. This means that these otherwise alien born children are treated by positive or municipal law as if they were born as citizens of the U.S. and considered as such. But they are not in nature so born, i.e., they do not meet the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen, and therefore need a positive or municipal law to rid them of alienage with which they were born.

The inescapable conclusion to be drawn from this reality is that children, who are born out of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents, who do not meet the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen and who are made “citizens of the United States” at birth by an Act of Congress, cannot be other than naturalized at birth by an Act of Congress and thereby given the legal status of and considered as “citizens of the United States” at birth. As such, these children are not and cannot be natural born citizens.

A corollary from these principles is the inescapable conclusion that children, who are born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction, who do not meet the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen (born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth) and who are therefore made “citizens of the United States” at birth only by the Fourteenth Amendment and 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a), cannot be other than naturalized at birth by these positive laws and thereby given the legal status of and considered as “citizens of the United States” at birth. As such, these children, like those born out of the United States, are not and cannot be natural born citizens.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"You disagree with me as to when persons first became 'citizens of the United States.' While both of us agree as to the retroactive effect given to the status of a 'citizen of the United States,' your error is in not keeping separate that effective date from the date the status of a 'citizen of the United States' was actually created. Allow me to explain."

Allow you? Even if I wanted to, I could not stop you from posting another prolix essay. I'll just point out that my little correction to your little mistake should not require a discursive multi-part response.

You wrote, "Citizens of free and independent states formed after July 4, 1776 became 'citizens of the United States' at the time the Constitution was ratified, retroactive to its adoption."

I responded, "Close, but not quite. Our legal tradition has been to retroactively date the United States beginning at the signing of the Declaration of Independence."

Where did you get that the retroactive date of citizenship was that of the Constitution's adoption?

No need for any long-winded lecture on the difference between the effective date and the date of actual creation. I agree there was a retroactive grant of U.S. citizenship. Unless I misread you, Mr. Apuzzo, you said that the retroactive date was that of the adoption of the Constitution. I think it was earlier, at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. Slartibartfast argues that, at least in the context of the larger question here, the date is even earlier.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I see that your understanding of the word “prolix” is as good as your understanding of the meaning of a “natural born citizen.”

You have not understood what I wrote regarding the creation and start date of national U.S. citizenship. As I already explained in my prior comments, while national U.S. citizenship was created as of the date the Constitution was ratified (not adopted) on June 21, 1788, that national character was given a retroactive effective date of July 4, 1776. In other words, while we created national citizenship in 1788, our national citizenship is considered as having started on July 4, 1776. Need I state the point any simpler?

I know that Slartibartfast believes that President George Washington had to be 14-years a citizen in order to be eligible to be President and so he maintains that he was a citizen of the United States from the time of his birth on February 22, 1732. He uses that argument as proof for this theory that all born citizens are natural born citizens. In other words, he says that being a born citizen is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen. As it applies to Washington, he argues that Washington being a born citizen was sufficient to make him a natural born citizen. Close analysis refutes his theory.

First, the clause is natural born citizen, not born citizen. Second, anything before July 4, 1776 was pure English colonies. At that time there was neither a United States nor citizens thereof, both necessary conditions for the creation of a natural born citizen. Third, there was no need to make U.S. citizenship go back before that date. Fourth, he confuses residency “within the United States” for “a Citizen of the United States.” I am still waiting for either him or you to respond to what I explained to him.

Anonymous said...

A NASH writes:

Mario wrote: "At that time there was neither a United States nor citizens thereof, both necessary conditions for the creation of a natural born citizen."

Mario, as I've explained to you more than once, you are reading words that do not exist. You are imagining the words that you have planted in everyone's mind when they have never existed, and those words are; "natural born citizen of the United States".

For once, get off of your soapbox and explain where those final four words are located.

The founders & framers used no such term, and yet you keep insisting that a phrase that they never used was a phrase that they did use.

Understand this: they NEVER connected being born a natural citizen with the union of the STATES.

With the exception of Hamilton and such, they were ALL natural born citizens of their home country, -the colony where they were born and raised.

That made all who were so born eligible to be President as natural born citizens. That term absolutely referred to themselves.

They were subjects of the Crown but also citizens of their home country, all of which were attempts at self-governance and self-reliance (the two characteristics of societies of citizens). They had elections, they voted, they served on juries, grand juries, militias, held elected and appointed offices, etc.

No one with a brain can claim that they were not citizens. The big fat error enters when one conceives that the word "citizen" MUST be connection to the words "of the United States". That is absolutely a false idea.

Before the Constitution's ratification, they were all citizens of the united STATES; -after they were also citizens of the UNITED STATES. (two completely different meanings)

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

Your statement is full of straw man arguments and misappropriations of my arguments.

I did not say “natural born citizen of the United States.” That is something that you said. In any event, your point is really asinine. I guess the natural born citizens were citizens of some unknown place. It was the United States, foolish one. You cannot find “of the United States” and tell us that the Founders never used those words. Try looking in the Constitution. You might be surprised at what you find there, silly one.

You said: “No one with a brain can claim that they [the Founders and Framers] were not citizens.” No one with a brain can claim that I ever made any such statement. I did not say that the Founders and Framers were not citizens. I have always maintained that they were citizens, but not natural born citizens, and made eligible to be President through the grandfather clause of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 (“. . . or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President”).

Regarding your point about the “united States” and the “United States,” first, it is something which you appropriated from my comments on this thread. Now you act like you invented the distinction. If you claim that you did invent it, provide for me here a link which shows when you wrote it and we will compare that writing with when I wrote my comment.

Second, there were no citizens in the colonies. There were only subjects. Citizens applied to republics, not monarchical societies that were under the allegiance and obedience of Great Britain. The colonies were not republics. They became free and independent states constituted as republics on July 4, 1776. It was only then that the nomenclature “citizen” applied to the members of those states.

Third, your argument is really absurd. Based on what you maintain, the Framers required Representatives and Senators to be at least 7 years and 9 years, respectively, a “citizen of the United States,” but the President to be just a “natural born citizen” of any one colony which did not ever apply to the colonies. Do you not realize what junk you write?

Fourth, your little sprinkles of feel good stuff like “self-governance and self-reliance (the two characteristics of societies of citizens). They had elections, they voted, they served on juries, grand juries, militias, held elected and appointed offices, etc.,” is totally irrelevant and changes absolutely nothing.

Fifth, you have no evidence from the Founding that the Founders and Framers saw themselves as natural born citizens. Rather, as you do with all your positions, you just make stuff up with your license to write historical fiction. Provide some historical or legal evidence that they considered themselves as natural born citizens. On the other hand, I have plenty of evidence that they saw themselves as just “citizens of the United States” and no more, and that they saw their children born in the United States as the first natural born citizens.

Sixth, President George Washington in 1795 through the Naturalization Act of 1795 (removed "shall be considered as natural born citizens" and replaced it with "shall be considered as citizens of the United States") made it clear that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were at most to be considered a citizens of the United States, and not to be considered as natural born citizens. So, you are telling me that he was not willing to considered children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents as natural born citizens, but he viewed his own generation born in the colonies (not a state) to non-U.S. citizen parents as natural born citizens? Do you honestly believe that your positions make any sense?

So, Mr. Nash, when are you going to write something that makes any sense?

Unknown said...

George Washington was not a natural born citizen of the US or a citizen of the US when he was born in 1732 because the country did not exist until 1776. I will go out out on another limb and say even though the Framers did not specify which country one had to be a NBC of to be president i think the country they were talking about was the US. I also have good reason to believe GW was a british colonial subject from 1732 until Declaration in 1776. On a side note, GW and Robert E Lee are 2 of the most famous figures in US history and both were from Virginia. Lee could not bring himself to fight against his home state but if he had been of military age at the time of American Revolution i am sure he wouldve been one of the first to fight against the King of England. This country used to produce great men but all i see now are backstabbing, power hungry lying weasels in DC.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

You're right that I misspoke regarding George Washington---he was unquestionably considered a resident of the United States in 1775 rather than a citizen, but that just puts you in the position of making a "god of the gaps" argument to say that somehow his residency was considered to have predated the revolution but his citizenship didn't. In turning away from the simple explanation (that, Constitutionally speaking, President Washington was a natural born US citizen) you have done exactly what Ockham's razor warns against---complicated your assumptions.

In order to avoid the simple assumptions that the definition of "natural born" never changed and that the subjects of the colonies became citizens of the US but retained their natural born or naturalized status as well as the date from which their citizenship was effective, you are forced to come up with abstruse explanations that the founders changed the definition of the term without explicitly saying so and that somehow their intent is encoded in an after-the-fact mistranslation of a tract by a Swiss writer discussing citizenship practices in countries like France and Germany which has exactly one citation on the subject of citizenship---by the majority in one of the worst decisions the SCOTUS has ever made. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of assumptions that you try to bury in your waves of logorrhea.

Sorry Mario, but correcting my simple misstatement doesn't really harm my argument at all---unlike you bolting on another epicycle to explain how George Washington was resident in the US in 1775 but not a (natural born) citizen.

Going after the misstatements of honest people is really a fool's errand---we just admit our mistake and amend our statements as necessary and end up in a stronger position than before forcing you to continue multiplying entities beyond necessity (to paraphrase Ockham). The obot theory requires only one simple assumption: the meaning of "natural born" did not change, while every assumption the birthers make seems to either contradict a previous assumption or beg a question which requires further explanations or assumptions.

To illustrate what I mean, if you assume that the definition of "natural born" changed, then it begs the question of when it changed which is a problem since you can't show it explicitly being changed anywhere nor come up with an explanation of when it changed that is consistent with Constitutional, statutory and case law nor can you come up with a counter-example (such as the naturalization documents for someone born in the US). On the other hand, if we assume that the definition never changed, we can take Madison's statement at face value, consider the reference to a poorly translated edition of Vattel produced after the Constitution was written in Scott v. Sandford to be faulty legal reasoning from an overturned case, take the unanimous SCOTUS in Minor at their word when they said they had doubts and found it unnecessary to resolve them and assume that all of the parties to the controlling case on citizenship---Wong Kim Ark---were correct when they made it clear that Mr Wong was a natural born citizen by arguing that the ruling made him eligible for the presidency, by saying that he was as much a citizen as the natural born child of citizens by operation of the same principle and by the fact that Mr. Wong could not, by law, have been naturalized at birth or any other time due to the Chinese Exclusion Act.

Face it, any birther theory requires innumerable additional hypotheses to explain how it works in various contexts while us Monty Obots merely assume that birther legal arguments are completely without merit---something supported by rulings in several court cases... including yours.

Anonymous said...

Nash replies:

Mario said: I did not say “natural born citizen of the United States.”

And I did not say that you did. Your comprehension is abominable. I said that you READ it where it doesn't exist, -you see it where it isn't implied, you presume it is intended when it was NOT intended.

All citizenship was STATE citizenship until the Constitution was ratified and adopted by the States.

You wrote: "Provide some...evidence that they considered themselves as natural born citizens. On the other hand, I have plenty of evidence that they saw themselves as just “citizens of the United States” and no more, and that they saw their children born in the United States as the first natural born citizens.

Talk about making straw men. I agree with that statement because it is true about THE UNITED STATES, Not true about the several STATES.

You continue to conflate the two like there's no difference. Your brain can't grasp that they were first and foremost CITIZENS of their home countries.

And what kind of citizens were they? They were natural citizens because they were born of citizens.
What did that make them? Natural born citizens (Notice... -no "of the United States")
I didn't say they were natural born citizens of the United States. I said that the Constitution did not require them to be that.
The natural citizenship it required was natural STATE citizenship or it would have included the four missing words that would impart a national context instead of a State context.

Now do you understand?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibarfast,

I of II

You did not misspeak. You knew that Article II required only 14-years a residence, but yet made Washington not only a citizen for 14 years but also one from birth. Additionally, you argue in contradiction saying that Washington “was unquestionably considered a resident of the United States in 1775 rather than a citizen,” but then at the same time say that his U.S. citizenship predated the American Revolution and that he was a natural born citizen. Again, Washington was a “Citizen of the United States,” not a “natural born citizen,” for he became such a citizen through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution. He could not become a natural born citizen, for he was not born in a state (later considered born in the United States) to parents who were its citizens.

I have already explained that virtually all of the Founders were born as British natural-born subjects. Of the Founders who were not so born, many had naturalized in the colonies to be citizens of those colonies. These Founders cast off their allegiance to Great Britain, whether obtained at birth or after birth, through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution. They became citizens of their respective states on July 4, 1776. With the ratification of the Constitution in 1788, those state citizens became “citizens of the United States,” retroactive to July 4, 1776, who Article II grandfathered to be eligible to be President. Those state citizens were the original citizens. They never became the natural born citizens. Rather, it was their children born in the United States who became the first natural born citizens.

There is no clause in the Constitution such as “natural born.” You truncate the clause “natural born citizen” to “natural born,” as did New Jersey ALJ Masin in Purpura and Moran v. Obama, so as to equate the clause “natural born citizen” to “natural-born subject.” But what you have produced is not equality, but rather misleading semblance. Your “natural born” is missing the subject “citizen,” which is critical to understanding under which system of laws the clause takes on its meaning. The English and the English common law used “natural-born subject.” The Americans and the American common law used “natural born citizen.” The former included children born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance and obedience to alien parents as “natural-born subjects.” The latter did not include as “natural born citizens” such children. Rather the American natural born citizen was only that child who was born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

I have not mistranslated Emer de Vattel. The 1797 anonymous English translator of The Law of Nations, along with all the U.S. Supreme Court cases that touched upon the meaning of a natural born citizen, credit him with providing the definition of the clause which he provided under the law of nations. From the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875), we know that the Framers adopted his law of nations definition of the clause and incorporated it into the common law of the time.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

It is funny telling me that you are an “honest person.” I have not seen you argue an honest position yet. Even now, you feign having misspoken regarding Washington’s citizenship, when it was your clear intention to say that Washington was a citizen for at least 14 years and actually from the time of his birth.

Concerning you point about coming up with “naturalization documents” for someone born in the United States, I have already provided my answer to your Obot colleague on this thread. Simply stated, no such documents were needed and therefore none exist.

As I have told you and other Obots many times, James Madison’s statement about place of birth being a certain criterion for citizenship applied only to determining who were subjects in the colonies, who became citizens of the states and eligible to be either members of Congress (Smith wanted to be a Representative), and if not born after the adoption of the Constitution, also eligible to be President. It did not apply to defining natural born citizens. It also did not have any further effect in the United States after Congress passed the 1790 Naturalization Act which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. The James Madison Administration confirmed the new meaning of citizenship by birth in the United States in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811, a case which I have already written upon at length.

The doubts that Court expressed in Minor were about who could be a “citizen” by birth in the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment, not about who could be a “citizen” under the “natural born citizen” clause. Wong Kim Ark resolved those doubts and held that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of his birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. It did not nor did it need to hold that he was a "citizen of the United States" because he was a “natural born citizen.” It is true that Wong could not be naturalized because of the Chinese Exclusion Acts. But did not stop the Court, for it used the Fourteenth Amendment to naturalize him at birth.

Face it, you have no evidence or facts which prove your theory that the Framers defined a natural born citizen the same as the English and colonists defined a natural-born subject. On the other hand, the totality of all the facts and evidence that I have produced proves beyond any doubt that the Framers defined a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Any cases in which I was involved either did not reached the merits of the question of what is a natural born citizen or if they did, did not address these facts and this evidence.

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Slarti prophesied the citizenship truth against Mario's invented fiction, but pointing out Mario's illogical transubstantiation of a statement by the esteemed Vattel in no way validates his own false assumption.
He wrote: "The obot theory requires only one simple assumption: the meaning of "natural born" did not change,"

That is false in two ways but he conveniently failed to trace the term back to when it was bastardized by the Calvin case, or in its wake.
Before that case, everyone understood plain English, by which everyone born of an Englishman was naturally a born Englishman also, i.e., a natural born Englishman and subject of the crown, -a natural born subject by blood-connection to a subject English father.

After Calvin, the focus shifted from England and its laws and people, to the King and his dominion.
Thereon after anyone born of anyone under the king's dominion, whether Englishman or foreigner, was viewed as being or equal to a natural born subject because the law applied equally to all, even though of very different origins.

The England-born child of a foreigner was "naturally" born in subjection to the king of the kingdom, and so it came to be in time that they were even referred to as "natural" born subjects, even though they were only alien born subjects. That was change number one. cont...

Anonymous said...

A.Nash continues:

The mind-set of the bastardized language of the English common law then became the mind-set within the colonies up until the early 1770s when the mind-set of many began to change drastically.

In time, they completely overthrew the oppression of the British monarchy and its Parliament, along with its basis of national membership, which was the plantation model by which anything born on my plantation belongs to me, the king, whether plant or animal or person.

Instead of an artificial criterion (birth location) determining one's national membership and subjectship for life, free consent, -willful choice, and a sacred vow of allegiance made all traitors to the crown into blood-brothers in a new enterprise of freedom and self governance.
They made themselves the semi-united members of 13 new sovereign nations, and they ceded to no one and no thing the right of their children to inherit that membership as the natural born citizens of the new nations.

That was the second time that "natural born" changed, and that fact is illustrated by something that John Jay did which could not be done with "natural born subject", -he underlined the word "born".
That had never, ever been done before because the term had devolved into a term of legal artifice with a unitarian meaning.

His emphasis was so that only one born as a natural citizen would receive the Command in Chief position, and all men made into natural citizens via the fiction of law known as natural-ization would be barred.
Both you and Mario drink the same Kool-Aid of the erroneous assumption that nbc is a term of art that you can redefine according to the erroneous opinions of men of the past or the mischaracterization of words that meant something different from that claimed about them.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

It is quite evident as to why you are on my blog. You take my analysis and ideas of all that is natural born citizen and then just rewrite them into you own words. Then to cover you tracks, you claim that I am wrong in what I write and never agree with me on anything. But the only difference between us that you contend that birth in the country is not necessary to make a natural born citizen while I do.

Mr. Nash, just know that I have been on to you for quite some time and that anyone who operates as you do is a despicable human being.

Unknown said...


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here is the Jack Maskell's logically valid but logically unsound natural born citizen argument:
All born citizens are natural born citizens.
Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are born citizens.
Therefore Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are natural born citizens."

Mr. Apuzzo, could you please cite Jack Maskell mentioning Ted Cruz? I was unaware.

You have already cited the Memorandum and the Report on presidential eligibility that Maskell authored for the Congressional Research Service, dating from 2009 and 2011 respectively, but those don't mention Cruz. In them Maskell surveyed the legal and historical evidence available at that time. He clearly endeavored to kept his advice consistent with judicial opinion, and succeeded to the point that every time *later* court cases reached the matters, the resulting verdicts and opinions supported Maskell's analysis.

Prescient as Jack Maskell proved to be, he had no magic crystal ball. In 2009 and 2011 Maskell arrived at the principle that we can now apply to see that Ted Cruz is Article II eligible. Cruz emerged on the national stage in 2012. There was no way Maskell could have foreseen Cruz becoming the mainstream test case we see today.

Now our host, Esquire Apuzzo, brings up points of which I was unaware. In some other work, Maskell named Ted Cruz. Lets see what that is.

Anonymous said...

A.R. Nash responds:

"But the only difference between us [is] that you contend that birth in the country is not necessary to make a natural born citizen while I do."

That is true, but the difference is worse than that. I contend, based on American principles, that your view about the nature of citizenship is not only non-American but is in fact anti-American.

You cannot respond by illuminating American principles that require native-birth because there are none. Native-birth as a criterion of national member never was and never can be defined as a principle because it is purely an imposed factor and requirement derived from imperial fiat.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with anything natural. It is an arbitrary artificial criterion based solely on artificial borders.

Before you go accusing me of stealing your ideas and passing them off as my own, you really ought to read with an open mind what I've written and posted to my blog, but what am I saying? For you that is impossible since everything you read gets filtered through the matrix of concepts that constitute your view of citizenship reality, -a view based on an ignorance of fundamental American principles.

I suggest you re-read the Ramsay Dissertation on citizenship, -or wait until my exposition of it is posted sometime this week. It will blow the subject wide open and discredit your view about native-birth and its non-connection to natural citizenship.
As soon as it's online, I'll be done trying to school you in the truth. It will be the final word.

PS. read "The Secret Obama's Mother Could Never Tell Him" at h2ooflife.wordpress.com

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

It appears that you do not understand the purpose of my presentation. Jack Maskell provides two possible arguments:

All natural born citizens are born citizens.

X is a born citizen.

Therefore, X is a natural born citizen.

This argument is not valid because no one established that being a born citizen is sufficient to be a natural born citizen.

Next:

All born citizens are natural born citizens.

X is a born citizen.

Therefore, X is a natural born citizen.

This argument is valid, but not sound. It is unsound because the major premise is false which makes the argument's conclusion false. There is no evidence that all born citizens are natural born citizens. Just on the face of it the argument fails, for the clause is natural born citizen, not born citizen. We have born citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment which it calls “citizens of the United States” and not natural born citizens. Wong was born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents, the Court held he was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth under the Fourteenth Amendment, and it did not say he was a natural born citizen under the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar and which they used to define a natural born citizen. Also, qualifying people born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents are naturalized as born citizens and Congress does call them natural born citizens. From 1802 to 1855, we even had children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who Congress treated as aliens.

It does not matter whose name we use for X. The logic and reason are the same for everyone.

Senator Ted Cruz happens to fall into the class of persons who are excluded from natural born citizen status. He knows that he does not meet the definition of a natural born citizen. He just simply wants to run for President and pull one over the voters like DF President Barack Obama did.

ajtelles said...

Logotherapy v. Logorrhea...

Mario, after reading your responsive two page tutorial to Slartibartfast today at 1:04 PM, I was thinking of commenting on one point of S...fast's logorrhea, but instead I thought that a quick comment about your logotherapy tutorial would be more productive than simply commenting about S...fast's logorrhea.

One quote from S...fast to set this up -

>> :And that's just the tip of the iceberg of assumptions that you try to bury in your waves of logorrhea."


What is logorrhea?

>> http://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/logorrhea

Definition of LOGORRHEA

":pathologically excessive and often incoherent talkativeness or wordiness that is characteristic especially of the manic phase of bipolar disorder."


Who is Viktor Frankl?

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Frankl

>> "... a Holocaust survivor. Frankl was the founder of logotherapy, which is a form of existential analysis, ...

>> "His best-selling book Man's Search for Meaning (published under a different title in 1959: From Death-Camp to Existentialism,

>> "and originally published in 1946 as Trotzdem Ja Zum Leben Sagen: Ein Psychologe erlebt das Konzentrationslager,

>> "meaning Nevertheless, Say "Yes" to Life: A Psychologist Experiences the Concentration Camp)

>> "chronicles his experiences as a concentration camp inmate, which led him to discover the importance of finding meaning in all forms of existence, even the most sordid ones, and thus, a reason to continue living."


What is logotherapy?

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherapy

>> "Logotherapy is based on an existential analysis

>> "focusing on Kierkegaard's will to meaning

>> "as opposed to Adler's Nietzschean doctrine of will to power

>> "or Freud's will to pleasure."

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, simply put, your emphasis on the original intent of the original "meaning" to the original birthers of 'natural born Citizen,' and your defense of original "meaning" and your meaningful tutorials to Obirthers S...fast, Unknown/not Linda and other Obirthers who defend BHObama's obfuscation about his lineage, heritage and nativity, "logotherapy," the discovery of meaning, is the cure for S...fast's "logorrhea."

- - - - - - - - - -

PS. This is the third request to Unknown/not Linda to explain what she means with what she posted on March 19, 2014 at 2:50 AM, and which I quoted on March 19, 2014 at 11:12 PM, and again on March 20, 2014 at 11:58 PM:

>>>>>>>>>> "Also, some article II natural-born citizens are not eligible."

Again, if Unknown engages in nuanced word play about what "some" is referencing, well, get ready for intellectual cachucha, an Andalusian solo dance in 3/4 time.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

I have not yet read your essay on David Ramsay, who I already wrote on and posted my essay at this blog. I know that you are going to say that he only required citizen parents and made no mention of being born in the country. That is nothing new.
Being born to citizen parents is only one of the two necessary and sufficient factors adopted by the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers to make a natural born citizen. Birth in the country is the other.

Read and understand the early naturalization acts. They tell the whole undeniable story that a natural born citizen is a child born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.
Just think, now you can go back and fix your essay before you publish it.

Regarding you appropriating my ideas and analysis on a natural born citizen, not giving me any credit for them, and making as though they are you own, I do not have to read your blog to show myself that I am wrong. Rather, I only need to read my own blog and your comments to see that I am right.

Slartibartfast said...

ajtelles quoted:

"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest."

This is pretty ironic considering that anyone questioning the eligibility of President Obama can be honest only to the extent that they are ignorant.

How many of the following are you willing to admit to being mistaken about?

1. Techdude's analysis claiming that the COLB was a forgery was incompetent b.s.

2. Polarik's analysis claiming that the COLB was a forgery was incompetent b.s.

3 Martha Zebest's analysis claiming that the LFBC pdf was a forgery was incompetent b.s.

4. Garrett Pappit's analysis claiming that the LFBC pdf was a forgery was incompetent b.s.

5. The New Jersey courts called Mario's argument frivolous.

6. Administrative Law Judge Malihi, after listening to the best arguments that three different birthers lawyers could muster against an empty chair, said their evidence was of "little to no probative value".

7. Wong Kim Ark was not a naturalized citizen.

8. Terms not explicitly defined in the Constitution are defined by English common law.

9. It is logistically impossible for Dr. Dunham to have given birth in Kenya.

9b. Not to mention that the idea that she would travel alone to Kenya late in her pregnancy is absurd.

10. The Indiana Supreme Court said that President Obama was a natural born citizen in Ankeny.

11. Justice O'Conner said that President Obama was eligible.

12. The Heritage Foundation said that the US is a jus soli nation.

13. President Madison said that the US is, first and foremost, a jus soli nation.

14. Wong Kim Ark and Virginia Minor have equivalent citizenship by operation of the same principle---jus soli.

15. John Woodman showed that the very notion that the LFBC is a forgery is utter nonsense.

16. Mario's case in Vermont will be denied cert by the SCOTUS without comment because there is no Constitutional issue at bar (he's trying to appeal a dismissal on the grounds of mootness and the Constitution doesn't allow the SCOUTS to second guess the Vermont courts on this matter).

17. President Obama hasn't spent a dime to "seal" his records. His records are sealed by the same laws that seal your records or my records.

18. Whatever foreign citizenships a person may acquire or be entitled to at birth has no impact on that person's US citizenship (Spiro Agnew was a natural born Greek and a dual citizen for his entire life).

19. The President hasn't spent any significant amount on defending himself against eligibility cases. There are very few in which he was a named defendant and even fewer in which he had representation present and the plaintiffs were ordered to pay the costs of the defense in several of those. Certainly your claim that he spent $3.4 million on it is outright false.

20. Orphans of unknown parentage are eligible for the presidency---Tom Villsack, for instance, was a foundling and no one objected to his presidential run.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

cont...


21. Never in the history of our country has a candidate's eligibility been questioned due to his parentage (before the frivolous attempts to delegitimize President Obama). In particular, the location of Chester A. Arthur's birth was questioned, not his father's citizenship.

22. A proper translation of section 212 of Vattel would say that the natives or indigenous peoples of a nation were those born in the nation with citizen blood relatives.

23. Section 212 of Vattel refers to countries like France and Germany---he explicitly says that they do things differently in countries like England.

24. Our national legal system, as well as that of every state save Louisiana, is based on English law.

25. Vattel was a staunch monarchist.

26. The Founders never referred to Vattel on citizenship---only on matters of international law.

27. The only reference to Vattel on citizenship by the SCOTUS is by the majority in a case that the 14th Amendment was written specifically to overturn (Scott v. Sandford).

28. Vattel said that nations had the right to kidnap women from other countries if necessary to maintain the population.

29. The State of Hawai'i has officially verified that President Obama was born there.

30. The Constitution guarantees this action be given full faith and credit.

31. President Obama's eligibility was successfully vetted by his opponents, the electorate, Congress and the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS. Twice.

32. Chief Justice Fuller said that the ruling in Wong Kim Ark would allow "mongrels" (meaning those like Mr. Wong) to become president in his dissent.

33. It was stated in arguments before the courts that ruling in Mr. Wong's favor would make him eligible for the presidency.

34. The SCOTUS in Minor v. Happersett gave a sufficient condition for natural born citizenship but expressed doubts as to a necessary condition.

35. The 14th Amendment did not change the citizenship status of anyone, it merely extended the rights under the Constitution as originally written to former slaves.

36. Standing is a Constitutionally mandated merit of legal cases.

37. No civics texts say that citizen parents were required for presidential eligibility.

38. Countless civics texts say that native birth (under the jurisdiction) is sufficient for presidential eligibility.

39. Barack Obama Sr. was under the jurisdiction of the US when his son was born.

I suspect that you were ignorant or mistaken on most if not all of these points Art. Now you get to choose whether you would rather be honest or mistaken.

Slartibartfast said...

In the time I've been here I've given nothing but my honest opinion and a view completely consistent with the Constitution, court rulings both past and contemporary, and all credible authority in the past two centuries. In return, I've been met with specious legal reasoning, baseless attacks on my patriotism, outright lies and other misinformation. At this point, there is no hope that any of you will entertain the possibility that you are wrong, it is extremely unlikely that any of you will convince even a single other person that President Obama is ineligible and there is no chance at all that President Obama will suffer even the slightest political hit on the eligibility issue, let alone be removed from office as a result. Unless someone can convince me that I'm wrong on these points, I see no reason to engage anymore with people unwilling to participate in honest debate.

If you would like to prove that I'm wrong about your willingness to engage in good faith discussion, then you can start by explaining why none of the following remedies were successful or in most cases even attempted with something more than everyone was in on/bought off by/controlled by a massive conspiracy.

Why did no legal scholar argue that the children of aliens were not natural born citizens between the Wong Kim Ark ruling and 2004?

If President Obama (or anyone else) ever learned that two citizen parents are required for natural born citizenship, where is the textbook where he learned it from? There are any number of texts at every level which say that one must be native-born to run for president or something like that, but none have come to light that use the definition many birthers claim to have learned in school.

Why did no one publicly raise the issue of the president's parentage between 2004 and 2008? It was clear in 2004 that President Obama was a potential presidential candidate and his parentage was a matter of public record (from his book).

Why didn't his rivals raise the issue of his parentage? The Clinton campaign didn't think there was any "there" there---why would they ignore what you think is such a surefire way to disqualify their only significant opponent?

Why didn't any opponent on the Democratic ticket file a ballot challenge in one or more states? This would have been the best time for a small-time candidate to argue standing to challenge President Obama's eligibility.

Why didn't anyone raise the issue of President Obama's parentage to Democratic voters? Hillary Clinton was clearly a viable alternative to Democrats and the primary was close---if even a small number of Democrats could have been convinced there was a problem with President Obama, she probably would have won. Where were the PUMAs?

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

cont...

After President Obama released his (now verified authentic) COLB and the birth-certificate birthers first appeared with their (quickly debunked) claims of forgery, why didn't anyone object to these baseless charges damaging the credibility of the entire eligibility movement? Phil Berg has always been clear that he thinks the two citizen parent thing is crap, but I don't recall any Vattelite ever saying that birthers should drop the birth certificate argument because it makes you all look bad.

John McCain was desperate enough to pick Sarah Palin as his running mate and in extremely solid shape on eligibility politically being that he was the child of an active-duty military officer and had a Senate resolution proclaiming his eligibility for which President Obama had voted. He looked into the issue, why didn't he pursue it?

Why weren't birthers able to convince moderate voters that President Obama was ineligible? If your position is as strong as you seem to think, why couldn't you sell it to enough people in the center to change the outcome of the election?

Why wasn't a challenge made to the certification of the election? All that would have been required is a single Senator and a single Representative and the issue would have been debated in Congress for everyone to hear. It's not like this was an unheard of procedure---it was last used in 2005 to challenge the certification of President Bush's reelection.

Why didn't Chief Justice Roberts refuse to swear in President Obama?

Once President Obama was inaugurated, why didn't birthers accept that the only Constitutional recourse for removing him was impeachment and focus either on that or attempting the above mentioned remedies in the 2012 election cycle?

Why have I wasted so much time on people that have nothing but their hate for President Obama?


ajtelles said...

Um Um Gooooooood...

Mario, the fish are jumpinnnnnnn' tonight!

Today, March 24, 2014 at 7:15 PM, Slartibartfast said...

>> "ajtelles quoted:

>> "'When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest."

- - - - - - - - - -

PS. S...fast, the author is named Anonymous, and I found the quote on the YouTube video "Thrive."

The quote on the "Thrive" movie as at about 1h. 9m. 40s.

The main website is http://www.thrivemovement.com/

The free Youtube video is http://youtu.be/lEV5AFFcZ-s

Then S...fast expressed some logorrhea with an ad hominem slap.

>> "This is pretty ironic considering that anyone questioning the eligibility of President Obama can be honest only to the extent that they are ignorant."

- - - - - - - - - -

Since there is no there there in that "ignorant" dig, let's focus on point #20.

>> "20. Orphans of unknown parentage are eligible for the presidency---Tom Villsack, for instance, was a foundling and no one objected to his presidential run."

Mario, here on your Puzo1 forum, has S...fast or any other Obirther ever adduced evidence, such as Congressional amendments or SCOTUS opinions, de jure or dicta, that definitively assert that the lineage, heritage and nativity of a child is NOT requisite to certify a child is a 'natural born Citizen' and eligible to be POTUS?

Logotherapy, the discovery of meaning, to the rescue to deal with the logorrhea from the Obirthers.

Patriotic American Obirther friends, that isn't an "ignorant" comment, is it?

- - - - - - - - - -

PS. Mario, for our patriotic American Obirther friends who might not know what "Obirther" means, it is simply a designation to distinguish between a defender of BHObama's lineage, heritage and nativity which they defend as born on U.S. soil, maybe, with ONLY one U.S. citizen parent, definitely, and a "birther" who is a defender of the original intent of the 'original birthers' who wrote the "natural born Citizen" three word unit with the original meaning of absolutely being born ONLY on U.S. soil with ONLY two parents married to each other BEFORE their child was born and BOTH were U.S. citizens BEFORE their child was born.

Both are simple definitions, right, patriotic American "Obirther" friends?

Thanks, S...fast for your previous post accusing Mario of logorrhea, inaccurately attributing intellectual logorrhea to Mario's erudite tutorials to any Obirther who wants to contend for a 'natural born Citizen' having the meaning of being born on U.S. soil with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, in this case a mother, who is NOT married to the child's father before the child is born.

U.S. soil & only ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent who is not married to the father BEFORE the child is born.

vs.

U.S. soil & only TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents who are married to each other BEFORE the child is born.

See, logotherapy, the discovery of meaning, existential and original, IS the cure for logorrhea.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

ajtelles said...

An excellent question...

Mario, today at 7:23 PM, Slartibartfast asked a substantive question.

>> "If President Obama (or anyone else) ever learned that two citizen parents are required for natural born citizenship,

>> "where is the textbook where he learned it from?

S...fast, the last part of the paragraph from which the above quote is found heads off into the weeds, obvious when you add "... or something like that," because if you knew, you would state exactly what "that" is.

So, the answer for a very pertinent question is very simple, requiring first an equally simple question to you building on your question.

>> "If President Obama (or anyone else) ever learned that two citizen parents are required for natural born citizenship,

>> "where is the textbook where he learned it from?

S...fast, where is the textbook where ALL of the Obirthers learned that ONLY one (1) citizen parent is required for "natural born citizen" citizenship?

See, your BHObama "Obirther" common sense meter and my original birther "birther" common sense meter are in synch here.

But, for some reason, the Obirthers choose birth on U.S. soil with ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent.

Why is that?

When 1787 America original intent common sense implies birth on U.S. soil with ONLY two (2) U.S. citizen AND married parents, why do Obirthers choose to infer that the 1787 America original intent common sense implies birth on U.S. soil with ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent?

Why?

Common sense is not chaotic about original existence absolutely requiring ONLY two (2) persons, male and female, to generate their posterity the original intent way, before in vitro fertilization was a gleam in ANY scientists eye, so why do Obirthers choose to infer and limit the U.S. citizenship requirement to ONLY one U.S. citizen parent?

Why?

Yep, S...fast, you asked an excellent 'original intent' question.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Unknown said...

If someone like cruz is a nbc then why did George Washington call children of citizens born outside of US citizens of the US in NA 1795? Do you sleazebots have a higher authority than GW or 14th amendment? If children of us citizens born outside of us are not eligible why would the child of a alien and a citizen be eligible? Dual citizens have never been eligible and even a citizen of the US with sole allegiance to US C is not allowed ( at least in article 2) to be CiC. There is nothing in the ecl about a natural born citizen. Only a shady judge would look there and ignore minor and the 14th amendment. Masin could not even get the ecl natural born subject right according to michael ns research.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It is amazing that dunstvangeet thinks that the requirements to be a 'natural born citizen,' who owes the nation the highest form of allegiance, faith, and loyalty known to man ('ligeantia naturalis' or natural allegiance) and in whose hands the Founders and Framers entrusted the political and military survival of the republic, should be the same as the requirements to use a community swimming pool."

That's another of your acts of fabrication, Mr. Apuzzo. What Dunstvangeet thinks to be the same are the rules of when the pluralize words. You could use the lesson. Dunstvangeet was commenting a tread about Brooke Paige's ballot challenge, in which the original court read your arguments from your own brief.

"While the court has no doubt at this point that Emmerich de Vattel's treatise /The Law of Nations/ was a work of significant value to the founding fathers, the court does not conclude that the phrase -- 'The natives, or natural born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.' -- has constitutional significance or that his use of the 'parents' in the plural has particular significance."
Paige v. Obama, No. 611-8-12 WNCV (Vt. Superior Ct., Sept. 21, 2012)


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It is a self-evident truth and intuitive that both parents need to be of the same allegiance and citizenship in order to produce a natural born citizen. The clause 'natural born citizen,' using the word 'natural born,' and 'citizen' in the singular, implies that the child is the citizen of only one nation from the moment of birth. The only way that a child can be born the citizen of only one nation is to be born in the nation of his parents to those parents who are both citizens of that nation at the time of the child’s birth."

Here's now well you did on that:

"In fact, the most comprehensive decision on the topic, Ankeny v. Governor of Indiana, examines the historical basis of the use of the phrase, including the English common law in effect at the time of independence, and concludes that the expression “natural born Citizen” is not dependent on the nationality of the parents but reflects the status of a person born into citizenship instead of having citizenship subsequently bestowed. The distinction is eminently logical." [ibid]


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Maybe dunstvangeet should try his hand at fables rather than analogies."

Maybe dunstvangeet prefers legal theories that win in court, which is to say, not yours.

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash demands:

Slarti; you think you have a slew of damning questions, many or half of which I agree with, but you are still completely intellectually dishonest and incapable of answering three simple questions:

1. Why did the Demoncrat party alter the 2008 Certification of Nomination by removing the previously existing statement certifying the presidential candidate to be constitutionally qualified?

2. Why did John Jay underline the word "born"?
And how in anyone's universe can any single word within a "term of art" be singled out when their meaning in total is a unitary meaning and not based on the meaning of individual words?

3. Why did the framers not simply accept Hamilton's suggestion that the President only be one born a citizen? According to your erroneous view, that is all that is required, so then why did the framers add the crucial word "natural"?

Please explain the difference between a born citizen and a natural born citizen.
By your delusional consensus opinion they are one and the same, so why the need for "natural", and what does it imply?

Could it possibly be referring to something conferred only naturally and not legally? -conferred by inheritance and not statute or British common law? Do tell.

Or admit that you don't really know what you are taking about, nor any of your ignorant vaunted experts who've been schooled in the same institutionalized error that has been extant since John Griggs made it the new law of the land in 1898.

You appeals to "authorities" are pathetic. Authorities have been wrong about almost every major discovery in history.

Unknown said...

Adrien Nash had written:
"Unknown/NotLinda's position is very simple: WKA determined that the alien-born are not aliens but Americans by the high court's decree, and that all Americans are eligible to be President."

When I objected, Adrien Nash wrote:
"I think you will agree after the addition of 'native-born' to 'all Americans'. I overlooked the naturalized and their children."

Ah, well, much closer. Thanks for that, Mr. Nash.

I hold that all native-born citizens are natural-born citizens -- you state my position correctly that far -- but I try to be more careful about who is eligible to be president. Not all natural-born citizens are eligible. When our host, Esquire Apuzzo, asked me explain, "how does a 'citizen of the United States' continue to be eligible to be President today", I answered:

"By being born with that citizenship at least 35 years ago, and being 14 years a resident (and with Amendment XXII not having already served two terms)."


Another contributor here, "ajtelles", was utterly baffled by my statement, "some Article II natural-born citizens are not eligible." I grant that the Twenty-Second Amendment point is subtle, but is the Article II eligibility clause really too big to fit in his head all at once? I don't get that.


Thanks for the adjustment, Mr. Nash. I had previously written that I never called you a liar, and I when I read you claiming that my position is, "that all Americans are eligible to be President", I thought I might have to reverse. Nope, just an oversight and/or misunderstanding. You and I still disagree, to put it mildly, but at least we do so sincerely.

ajtelles said...


A "cachucha"....

Well, Unknown, on March 25, 2014 at 4:02 AM gave a non-answer answer.


In fact, there is no substance in the cachucha answer by Unknown -

>> "Another contributor here, "ajtelles", was utterly baffled by my statement,

>>>>>>>>>> "some Article II natural-born citizens are not eligible."

>> "I grant that the Twenty-Second Amendment point is subtle,
>> "but is the Article II eligibility clause really too big
>> "to fit in his head all at once?

>> "I don't get that."

- - - - - - - - - -

Unknown, complete sentences with clarifying words would be appreciated to avoid another cachucha answer to the simple original question about the word "some."

_Unknown, what "subtle" point are YOU making by connecting the 1781 Article II to the 1951 Twenty-Second Amendment?

_Unknown, what "subtle" point are YOU making by saying that the Twenty-second Amendment is "subtle?"

_Unknown, what does "really too big" mean to YOU?

_Unknown, what does the word "that" mean to YOU in the 2nd part of the quote?

_Unknown, what does "some" mean to YOU in the original quote?

_Unknown, to whom is "some" referring in the context of the 1787 Article II? -

>>>>>>>>>> "some Article II natural-born citizens are not eligible."

- - - - - - - - - -

The cachucha, is, well, slow, with incomplete and inarticulate sentences.


American Heritage Dictionary

An Andalusian solo dance in 3/4 time.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

~to whom it may concern; available now online in pdf format only is my completed opus magnun entitled:
UNDERSTANDING THE NATURE OF NATIVE-BIRTH; -EXPOSING THE ERRORS of NATIVE-BIRTH CITIZENSHIP STATEMENTS

(21 pages)

It dissects many of the most important native-born = natural born statements going back over two centuries and reveals the misconceptions that led to them, exposing their fallacies and basic failure to understand the nature of native-birth and natural citizenship.

http://h2ooflife.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/understanding-the-nature-of-native-birth-b1.pdf

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ajtelles,

Unknown/NotLinda prides herself on what she believes is being witty and on being with the “in” crowd.

She has no legal argument other than her little water-carrier comments. Now she tries to be cute with her reference to the Twenty-Second Amendment which has absolutely nothing to do with defining a “natural born citizen,” which is the issue at hand. (She could have also told us about the 35-year age and 14-year residency requirement but she did not.) She even believes that her wit is beyond your comprehension.

May I suggest to Unknown/NotLinda that some natural born citizens are not eligible to be President because they are not mentally competent to take the oath of office.

Anonymous said...

A.Nash writes:

In the young U.S. less than 1% of the population was electable to the presidency.

The nation was founded on the principle of equality, which meant there was no royal class of citizens, nor a noble class.

There was only the natural class and the natural-ized class, and it wasn't even really separate from the natural class, as is seen in the Pennsylvania Constitution.

It does not even use the word "citizen" because after a year of residence, foreigners had all of the civic rights of natives. All were equally invested in the enterprises of self-goverance and financial progress.

But when it came to the one unique position of Command in Chief of the nation, instead of being all about inclusion, Americans were all about exclusion, beginning with the opening words: "NO PERSON...".

That's quite an opposite spin from "Any person". So who was excluded literally and sociologically?

About 99% of the population, beginning with all foreigners (about 2% of inhabitants) since they were not natural born citizens; and then all American women (about half of the remaining 98%.

Then about half of the 49% of American men for being too young,and perhaps 20% too old to be ambitious and energetic enough to run, leaving between 15-20%.

Eighty percent of them (or more) were not college educated, leaving 4% or less, of which some were not of Anglo-Saxon background, had stains on their moral character (divorce, adultery, graft, financial corruption, etc.), were Catholic, or were not known patriots but perhaps suspected loyalists or sympathizers; and also those who were passive, unknown, unremarkable, unaccomplished and unendowed men with nothing to recommend them to voters.

Leaving less than 1% both eligible and electable. People are picky, especially when it comes to wielding the ultimate power of the nation.
Roadblock #1? subjection from birth to a foreign power through a foreign father.
"Not all natural born citizens were eligible."

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash ruminates:

I'll bet that you are an unconstitutional American.

Were your mother and father American citizens? If so, then you are not covered by the protections of the Constitution and the 14th Amendment. Your citizenship is unconstitutional. Therefore you are eligible to be President.

Do you understand? If not then you need a concept paradigm shift.

If your citizenship was granted by the 14th Amendment, -or any statute, then you are a legal citizen of the United States, while only natural citizens are persons eligible to be President under the Constitution's lone perennial exception for natural born citizens. Everyone else is banned.

"Amendment? We don't need no stinking amendment!" We qualify without any permission of law because we are the natural natives of the country and our kind were the ones that made the nation and its laws and amendments.

We didn't have to give ourselves permission to be part of our own national family.

Our rules of allowing outsiders to join us were not rules written for us but for outsiders and their children.
We don't need no stinking rules because we are the people who made the rules.

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash ruminates further:

The Bahia faith is a mish-mash combo of other faiths, just like Christlam, -a melding of Islam and Christianity.

Combining original religions into manufactured new religions is a bridging of two disparate worlds.

It's been done also in the political sphere of citizenship ideology, and the result is just as unnatural and fabricated.

Male is a natural gender, as is female, but combine the two and what do you get? Something natural or something unnatural?

Hybrids and hermaphrodites are not natural, and neither is the soundness of combining jus soli with jus sanguinis.

Combining them produces a hermaphrodite freak that's part everlasting Natural Law and part Imperial British law justified for the benefit of royal dictators.

And what justifies such an unholy wedding of opposites? Only a feel-good neo-nativist patriotic nationality religion based on nothing concrete at all. No Pope-like authority established it, no officially-appointed philosopher blessed, promulgated or originated it.
It's just a high-concept, "visionary principle" that sounds really, really good but like a rose, has the awful thorns that cannot avoid hurting some innocent Americans who lost the citizenship lottery by having the misfortune to be born to a mother who wasn't able to give birth on hallowed American soil.

Oh well, if you're gonna make an omelet... So just slap a big fact label of "ALIEN!" on their babies and make their natural born American children dependent on the merciful beneficence of government to grant permission to become a citizen just like their mother and father already were.
Sure, seems fair, don't cha think?

Who are you to question the limitless power of government over the children of its own citizens?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v Happersett (1875) told us how the Framers defined a natural born citizen. It said that they defined it under the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. It also explained that under that common law, a natural born citizen was defined as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. So, that is the definition of a natural born citizen, not anything else which is nothing more that the product of your fancy. That, indeed, is the definition, not what you say it ought to be.

That definition of a natural born citizen is what is incorporated into our Constitution. If you do not like it, get a constitutional amendment passed to change it or you can always try to start a new society like the Founders did and define a natural born citizen of that society any way your heart desires. The problem that you will have trying to start a new society with your definition of a natural born citizen is that you are going to run into those pesky borders of which you are not so fond. But then if you should encounter any problems crossing those borders, just tell your resisters that those borders are artificial and that under natural law there are no borders. That should convince your resisters to turn over to you all the land that you want and need to set up your new society. The Founders should have had it so easy.

ajtelles said...

What the ...

Mario, can you make heads or tails of this?

On March 25, 2014 at 7:51 PM, Stranger, A.R.Nash ruminates:

>> "I'll bet that you are an unconstitutional American.

>> "Were your mother and father American citizens?

>> "If so, then you are not covered by the protections of the Constitution and the 14th Amendment.

>> "Your citizenship is unconstitutional.
>> "Therefore you are eligible to be President.
>> "Do you understand?
>> "If not then you need a concept paradigm shift."

Just wonderin' on a rainy night here in El Paso, Texas.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

ajtelles said...

Compassion...

Marion, today at 10:47 PM, you clarified the confusion of Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

>> "The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v Happersett (1875) told us how the Framers defined a natural born citizen.

{...}

>> "... a natural born citizen was defined as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

[...]

>> "That, indeed, is the definition, not what you say it ought to be.

[... ]

>> "If you do not like it, get a constitutional amendment passed to change it

>> "or you can always try to start a new society like the Founders did

>> "and define a natural born citizen of that society any way your heart desires.

>> "The problem that you will have trying to start a new society with your definition of a natural born citizen is that you are going to run into those pesky borders of which you are not so fond.

[...]


Mario, your compassionate words to Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife will hopefully germinate and fructify... someday... into something wonderful in defense of the original intent of the original words of the original birthers.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

Unknown said...

Natural citizens are not eligible, only natural born citizens are in a2. The vermont court said vattels quote about the natives or NBCs has no (haha) constitutional significance and yet the unananimous SC MvH case said this quote came from the common law of the Framers and that the NBCs were never in doubt. I would say a quote out of the common law of the Framers of US Constitution to describe the natives or natural born citizens would have constitutional significance. To say otherwise is a blatant lie. Those judges are a joke and should be removed for ignoring A2 and knowingly lying

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash responds to Art:

If you are a natural born citizen, then nothing in the Constitution was written for the purpose of granting you citizenship because you were born with it automatically via blood-connection inheritance.

And it pre-dates the Constitution.

The Constitution did not cause a paradigm shift in citizenship. That occurred due to the Declaration of Independence, but it did make possible citizenship in a new nation, -not just a new country comprised of 13 nations, -each with its own citizenship and Constitution.

The federal Constitution did not infringe on the right of States to control their own citizenship and immigration. It only authorized Congress to make the naturalization rules uniform nation-wide.

It did nothing to impact the state or national membership of natural citizens of the states and of the new union of states.

Anonymous said...

Mario said: " It also explained that under that common law, a natural born citizen was defined as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth."

Problem #1. The court did NOT define anything. It labeled children of natives with a non-defining label, meaning non-exclusionary.

Problem #2. In English common law there was no such thing as a natural born citizen, because there were no citizens; there were only subjects of his majesty.

Problem #3. Countries do not have citizens; they have members. Only nations have citizens. A nation is a country plus its created government. Without established government it is not a nation.

Problem #4. (Eastern) America was a country comprised of 13 colonies / nations just as ancient Greece had been a country comprised of independent City-States. By that reasoning, the founders were all natural born citizens of their own home-nation and thus eligible as natural born citizens to be President of the union of states.

The national Constitution did not require one to be an nbc of the union, -of the new semi-unified nation. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe were all natural born citizens of the semi-sovereign commonwealth of Virginia and thus eligible to be President of the union of the States.

Is any of this even beginning to sink in with anyone other than Mario who is incapable of any flexibility of thinking?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Obot 'Keith March' boldly proclaims at Dr. Conspiracy’s:
'That 1898 definition makes it abundantly clear that precisely ZERO citizen parents are required to make the child a natural born citizen.'

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/03/apuzzo-reading-scotus-appeal-in-paige-case/

The Obots are really smart, or at least they think they are. First, dunstvangeet tells us that one country club member parent is sufficient for kids to go swimming in the club pool. And now we have Obot Keith March telling us that no parent members are needed."

---

No, no. None of that was "first". In the earliest post in the archives of this belong, dated 20 December 2008, you wrote:

"Some argue that the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898) is the final word on 'natural born Citizen' and that under that decision, as long as Obama was born on U.S. soil, he is a 'natural born Citizen.'"

You, Mr. Apuzzo, chose to go to court. Getting rulings on the merits of your legal theory took you years, but eventually you got them. Dunstvangeet and Keith March are not disagreeing. They're showing that you are wrong in multiple ways. Your own results confirm what obots told you all the way from 2008 to the current thread at Doc C's.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The Obots are running so scared that they are even compelled to argue that the Founders and early presidents were also natural born citizens when they could not possibly be."

The way you guys tell it we've been running scared since 2008. We should be in really good shape by now. As things turned out, so far, we didn't really have anything to fear. Eligibility deniers brought hundreds of cases and appeals, and lost every single one.

Ah, but your petition to the U.S. Supreme Court in Paige v. Vermont is still pending. Maybe this is the one that should have us obots cowering and quaking. Or maybe insanity consists of doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The Obot are in a box out of which they cannot escape. History, law, reason and logic destroys them. Only politics can save them."

Well then, good for your petition for certiorari, Mr. Apuzzo. The Constitution protects federal judges from politics. Firing them requires impeachment in the House and Trial in the Senate. Cutting their pay is unconstitutional. The justices of the U.S. Supreme Court have the top jobs in the judicial branch for as long as they live and choose to hold them. With history, law, reason and logic on your side, you should do great.

We obots see things a bit differently. Over at Doc C's, same link as above, "Ricky" delivered our predictions:

"Here is what will happen with your SCOTUS petition. Sometime between now and April 9 the State of Vermont will waive its right to respond. Not a single justice will be interested in your case, so the petition will be 'dead listed' and scheduled for a conference. A few days after the conference (at which your petition will not even be mentioned) a formal denial of your petition will be issued."

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash inquires:

Slarti... in reference to the first of my three questions to your honest heart and soul, I add this:

Although it is customary for the parties to certify the eligibility of their candidates under Article II, Section I, Clause 5 of the Constitution, the Democrat Party chair, Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA), made that certification in 2008 only to the State of Hawaii, which has a statutory requirement that such Constitutional certification be made. The remaining 49 states received no such certification in support of the eligibility of Barack Obama.

Allegedly Pelosi prepared two different certifications verifying the eligibility of Barack Obama for the Presidency, which were both prepared on the same day, August 28, 2008, and notarized by the same individual.

The Certification of Nomination sent to the state of Hawaii mentioned the Constitutional requirement:

"THIS IS TO CERTIFY that at the National Convention of the Democrat Party of the United States of America, held in Denver, Colorado on August 25 through 28, 2008, the following were duly nominated as candidates of said Party for President and Vice President of the United States respectively and that the following candidates for President and Vice President of the United States are legally qualified to serve under the provisions of the United States Constitution.. "

The Certification of Nomination sent to the other 49 states did not mention the Constitutional requirement:

"THIS IS TO CERTIFY that at the National Convention of the Democrat Party of the United States of America, held in Denver, Colorado on August 25 through 28, 2008, the following were duly nominated as candidates of said Party for President and Vice President of the United States respectively.. "

We are asking nicely. Nancy, why the two certifications? We can handle the truth.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said......

"We qualify without any permission of law because we are the natural natives of the country and our kind were the ones that made the nation and its laws and amendments."

Reply:
You contradict yourself once again; you have been saying all along that native-birth should not be and is not a factor in determining who shall be an Article II "natural born Citizen", now you flip flop again.

Here ....... the proven facts, once again...

An Article II "natural born Citizen" is one who is born in the US to US citizen parents, using your terms is, a "natural native of the country" .......... right?

The constitutional term is "natural born Citizen" of the US, not "natural born", not "native born", not "born" and not "natural native of the country".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of II

As you so graciously point out, Vermont state judge, Robert Bent, in Paige v. Obama, made the following statements there:

"While the court has no doubt at this point that Emmerich de Vattel's treatise /The Law of Nations/ was a work of significant value to the founding fathers, the court does not conclude that the phrase -- 'The natives, or natural born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.' -- has constitutional significance or that his use of the 'parents' in the plural has particular significance."
Paige v. Obama, No. 611-8-12 WNCV (Vt. Superior Ct., Sept. 21, 2012).

He also said in the same decision:

"In fact, the most comprehensive decision on the topic, Ankeny v. Governor of Indiana, examines the historical basis of the use of the phrase, including the English common law in effect at the time of independence, and concludes that the expression “natural born Citizen” is not dependent on the nationality of the parents but reflects the status of a person born into citizenship instead of having citizenship subsequently bestowed. The distinction is eminently logical."

I would like to see Judge Bent explain his statement that “the court does not conclude that the phrase – ‘The natives, or natural born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.' -- has constitutional significance or that his use of the 'parents' in the plural has particular significance." In particular, he needs to address why every U.S. Supreme Court decision that ever mentioned natural born citizen, when doing so provided in one form or another Vattel’s definition of a natural born citizen (The Venus [Chief Justice John Marshall cites and quotes Vattel], Inglis [relies on Vattel’s partus sequitur patrem concept of citizenship], Shanks [relies on Vattel’s partus sequitur patrem concept of citizenship], Dred Scott [Justice Daniel cites and quotes Vattel], Minor [unanimous U.S. Supreme Court paraphrased Vattel], and Wong Kim Ark [cites and quotes Minor and its Vattel paraphrased definition]), including the use of the plural word “parents.”

While he is on “parents,” he needs to tell us if before the Cable Act of 1922, there was such a thing as one parent of a U.S. citizen child having citizenship from the United States and another parent having it from a foreign nation.

Again while on “parents,” he also needs to tell us why Ankeny, the very decision that he cites for authority, said that Minor v. Happersett (1875) only provided for cases where both parents were either citizens or aliens and not for the case like Obama’s wherein one parent is a U.S. citizen and the other is not. I would like

Judge Bent needs to explain why Congress from 1790 until today in all its naturalization acts has set up different rules of naturalization based on whether a child has one or two U.S. citizen parents.

Judge Bent needs to address whether the Framers’ purpose for requiring only the President and Commander in Chief of the Military to be a natural born citizen is served by requiring that the child at birth is born to one or two U.S. citizen parents or none.

Finally, given his Maskell citizenship at birth theory of the natural born citizen clause, he needs to explain why the Framers would have written “natural born citizen,” and not just born citizen.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Regarding his second statement, Judge Bent needs to address the Framers including in the Constitution a reference to the law of nations, but no reference to the English common law.

He needs to provide historical and legal evidence specifically linking the Framers’ definition of a natural born citizen to the English common law. This exercise is not satisfied by simply saying that it is so without providing relevant sources that support one’s position.

He also needs to explain the fact that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor told us what common law the Framers relied upon in defining a natural born citizen, and it was not, as Ankeny said, the English common law. A simple reading of Minor will reveal that, for it said under that common law, children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the children’s birth were not only citizens like their parents, but also natural born citizens, and that the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners,” and even added on its own that “there have been doubts” whether children “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents were citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. Surely, none of this was any confirmation that the English common law jus soli rule of citizenship prevailed in the United States. We need to learn from Judge Bent how a state law judge can decide to take the word of another state decision over the word of the U.S. Supreme Court.

Finally, since he so heavily relied upon Ankeny and Wong Kim Ark, he needs to explain Ankeny’s statement that Wong Kim Ark did not hold that Wong was a natural born citizen, but that the Fourteenth Amendment made him so. In this connection, it is critically important that he explain what evidence Ankeny provided which demonstrates that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a natural born citizen.

For Judge Bent’s decision to have any credibility, he needs to come to grips with and provide reasonable explanations on these points (and there are so many others which I am not stating within this response).

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Of course we know that the common law to which Minor referred did not have its source in the English common law."

That's ludicrous. Minor identifies the relevant law thus: "At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted [...]". Do you think the framers were not familiar with the language of English common law?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Rather, it had its source in the law of nations."

The framers were familiar with a variety of legal systems and theories. There's no serious doubt of the fact that the one they knew best was the English.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here is Ex parte Reynolds, decided after Minor, explaining [...]"

Ex parte Reynolds probably never applied outside the question of whether one was an (American) Indian, and certainly not after U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. The Circuit Court invoked the law of nations because it found that Indian tribes have the status of foreign nations even though located within the U.S.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor explained that this is the definition of a 'natural born citizen' that the Framers used when they adopted the Constitution. It said that definition was found in the 'common-law' the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they adopted the Constitution. That definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth."

You can keep telling that falsehood, but you just keep losing when judges read the opinion. Minor states that children born in a country to parents who were its citizens are unquestionably natives or natural-born citizens, but it declines to resolve other cases. In the very next paragraph the Court acknowledges that Congress was within its power of naturalization to consider as natural-born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were citizens, so clearly the Court did not adopt your definition of "natural born citizen". Actually the one definition of "natural-born citizen" that is entirely consistent with the Minor opinion is "citizen from birth".

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Any competent lawyer should understand that the Constitutional mention of "the law of nations" is referring to international law, not Vattel's book. Furthermore, this reference has absolutely nothing to do with citizenship. It's a good thing that the SCOUTS will deny your case cert without comment and prevent you from (further) embarrassing yourself by making such juvenile and frivolous arguments.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,
There is no way in nature (reason), history, policy, law, and logic that you can shake the truth of what I have written."

What I enjoy is how you keep confirming what I've written. In your head you bat a thousand. In reality, zero. I've cited and quoted you lying, over and over, yet you still post another self-righteous proclamation of your own truth.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The only thing that you can do is just throw out here and there little silly, trite comments [...]"

I grant that some of my remarks are silly. You bestowed upon me the title of "Monty Python Obot". I ran with it.

Which of my comments would you say are sillier than your one about Buffalo wings? (This thread, March 6, 2014)


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"[...] that do not address the substance of anything that I demonstrate regarding the original and continuing meaning of a natural born citizen, and to appeal to the shallow and unsupported decisions of some lower courts."

You seem to keep forgetting which of us chose to make those courts the deciders.

My point is not that judges Bent and Masin are the ultimate authorities. It's that your case is such utter crank nonsense that you lose even where you picked the fights. You are a BV rated attorney. The lower courts are your wheelhouse. You face-planted in your own back yard.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I see that you just keep telling the two Minor lies that it referred to the English common law when defining a natural born citizen and left open some question as to what a natural born citizen was. Too bad for you that your position is on its face contradictory. After clearly defining who the natural born citizens were, i.e., children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, telling us that those children were not only citizens like their parents, but also natural born citizens, and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners,” it showed how Congress could abrogate that common law when it came to citizens (not to be conflated and confounded with the natural born citizens) by acting upon them through its naturalization powers, and left open the question of whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was also a “citizen” (again not to be conflated and confounded with a natural born citizen) from the moment of birth by way of the Fourteenth Amendment. Anyone who knows anything about the English common law will tell you that the English common law provided that children born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance and obedience were “natural-born subjects” without any doubts. So, if Minor was relying upon the English common law, there would not have been any reason for it to say there were any doubts about whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was a “citizen,” or who you fabricate to say “natural born citizen.” The truth is that Minor was not and could not have been referring to the English common law, for it said that “there have been doubts” whether those children “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents were even “citizens” and that when it wrote “citizens,” it meant exactly that “citizens,” and not “natural born citizens.”

You continue to tell another lie that Minor said that Congress had the power to make natural born citizens. I already showed you how you just make things up and that such a question was never even before the Court.

You simply insist on telling us that the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress define a natural born citizen when they clearly do not. Article I and II clearly distinguish between a “natural born Citizen” and a “Citizen of the United States.” The First and Third Congresses also clearly made the distinction in the Naturalization Acts of 1790 and 1795. The text of the amendment and Acts of Congress defines a “citizen of the United States,” not a “natural born citizen.” Additionally, recent case law has confirmed that the amendment neither amended nor repealed Article II’s natural born citizen clause by implication.

Finally, you pawn off Jack Maskell’s theory that all born citizens are natural born citizens. I have been through that one in many different ways, showing that it is a theory just made up by Maskell, for which he does not provide historical and legal evidence.

So, Unknown/NotLinda, do you have something substantive that backs up what you write other than your repetitive comments which I have already debunked many times over?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I see that you have not made yourself enough of a jackass here. I never said that “Law of Nations” in Article I, Section 8, Clause 10 referred to Vattel’s The Law of Nations. So, you still believe that George Washington had to be 14-years a citizen in order to be eligible to be President. You are one pathetic being.

ajtelles said...

Part 1
1787 original intent defended on December 20, 2008...

Mario, on March 26, 2014 at 2:57 AM, Unknown reminded you of your very first post on December 20, 2008, of which a few paragraphs follow Unknown's “... you are wrong in multiple ways” finger wag.

Mario, it looks like the Obama Obirthers are stuck in an intellectual cul de sac of denial about original sources, as the few paragraphs from your December 20, 2008 comments reveal.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> Unknown said...
>> Mario Apuzzo, Esq. Wrote:
>> "Obot 'Keith March' boldly proclaims at Dr. Conspiracy’s:

>> 'That 1898 definition makes it abundantly clear that precisely ZERO citizen parents are required to make the child a natural born citizen.' [ajt to Mario, this statement looks like Obama Obirther premeditated DISinformation, NOT innocent MISinformation.]

>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/03/apuzzo-reading-scotus-appeal-in-paige-case/

>> The Obots are really smart, or at least they think they are.

>> First, dunstvangeet tells us that one country club member parent is sufficient for kids to go swimming in the club pool.

>> And now we have Obot Keith March telling us that no parent members are needed."

>> ---

[Unknown's limited info response is -]

>> No, no. None of that was "first". In the earliest post in the archives of this belong, dated 20 December 2008, you wrote:

>> "Some argue that the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898) is the final word on 'natural born Citizen' and that under that decision, as long as Obama was born on U.S. soil, he is a 'natural born Citizen.'"

>> You, Mr. Apuzzo, chose to go to court. Getting rulings on the merits of your legal theory took you years, but eventually you got them.

>> Dunstvangeet and Keith March are not disagreeing.
>> They're showing that you are wrong in multiple ways.
>> Your own results confirm what obots told you all the way from 2008 to the current thread at Doc C's.

- - - - - - - - - -

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 2

Unknown responds with opinion while you, Mario, have substantive commentary with common sense and articulate analysis, what I like to call analysis of the “common sense original intent by the birthers who were the original birthers,”, and common sense analysis that the Obama Obirthers have NOT been able to refute with original sources that have legislative or judicial authority, either de jure, ipso jure or dicta authority, since your substantive original post on Saturday, December 20, 2008 titled THE TWO CONSTITUTIONAL OBSTACLES OBAMA HAS TO OVERCOME TO BE PRESIDENT.

As Unknown's response to your comment, "Obot 'Keith March' boldly proclaims at Dr. Conspiracy’s,” and the comments on ObamaConspiracy.org reveals, ALL of the Obama Obirther refutations are based on the authority of their creative de facto wishes and ipso facto wishes, while their “wishes” are not supported with ANY de jure or ipso jure authority that affected the implicit original intent of Article II Section 1 Clause 5 as referring to being born in 1787 America ONLY on U.S. soil as ONLY the result of the physical union of two persons who were married to each other BEFORE their child was born, and BOTH parents were U.S. citizens, either by birth or by naturalization or a combination of the two, BEFORE their child was born on U.S. soil.

I used the word “implicit” deliberately because the “original intent” of 'natural born Citizen' is either implicitly ONLY born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents, OR implicitly ALSO born on U.S. soil with ONLY one U.S. citizen parent, OR implicitly ALSO being born on foreign soil with ONLY one U.S. citizen parent.

The original birthers were not chaotic in their original intent, or what is “original intent” for? And, for how long is “original intent” expected to last?

Original intent in 1787 America absolutely could NOT be, with reference to BHObama, BOTH positions, ONLY birth on U.S. soil with two (2) U.S. citizen parents OR birth on U.S. soil with ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent.

And, with reference to my favorite Texas Senator, Rafael Edward 'Ted' Cruz, original intent in 1787 America absolutely could NOT be BOTH positions, ONLY birth on U.S. soil with two (2) U.S. citizen parents OR birth on foreign soil with ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent.

- - - - - - - - - -

The comments about the writ of certiorari to the SCOTUS on ObamaConspiracy.org, and Keith March's comment #226 that is referenced here is -

>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/03/apuzzo-reading-scotus-appeal-in-paige-case/

>> THE TWO CONSTITUTIONAL OBSTACLES OBAMA HAS TO OVERCOME TO BE PRESIDENT.

>> http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2008/12/two-constitutional-obstacles-obama-has.html

[The quote marks “ ” for the ten paragraphs, 26-35, from the original December 20, 2008 post, are not supplied for the paragraphs which I have opened up for quick scanning.'

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 3

>> There are also subsequent Congressional acts that give us insight into what the Framers of the Constitution meant by “natural born Citizen.”

>> The 1790 Congress, many of whose members had been members of the Constitutional Convention, passed the Naturalization Act of 1790 (1 Stat.103,104) which provided that “And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens.”

>> It is interesting to note that George Washington was president of the Constitutional Convention and President of the United States when this bill became law and if he disagreed with this definition, he could have vetoed this bill.

>> One would then at first think that this legislation strongly suggests that the Framers of the Constitution understood this phrase to refer to citizenship acquired from the child’s parents at birth, regardless of whether or not that birth had taken place on U.S. soil.

>> But Congress changed this law in 1795 by removing the words “natural born” from the term “natural born citizen” and just leaving it “citizens.”

>> This change in the law gives us a clear understanding of what the Congress perceived to be what the Framers of the Constitution understood “natural born Citizen” to mean.

>> This legislative amendment by many members of Congress who had been members of the Constitutional Convention also shows that they recognized that there was a critical distinction between “natural born Citizen” and “citizen, ” a distinction important enough to have to pass a Congressional act to amend a prior law that was ill conceived in their eyes.

>> It is also questionable whether the 1790 act is constitutional given the language of Article 2 which makes “natural born Citizen” one of the requirements to be President and distinguishes that status from mere citizen of the United States.

[Mario, since the Obama Obirthrs NEVER contend that the 1790 act WAS constitutional “given the language of Article 2, they obviously agree with your analysis.]

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 4

>> In 1795 the Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1795 which removed the words “natural born” from the previous 1790 law.

>> Hence, the new law meant that such children born to citizens beyond the seas are citizens of the U.S., but are not legally to be considered “natural born Citizens” of the U.S.

>> It seems that this was done to clarify for those living at that time who was and who was not a “natural born Citizen” per the Framers intent at that time, since the 1790 Act had introduced confusion into that subject regarding the use of those words in the Constitution.

>> It is again important to note that George Washington was also President in 1795, making him aware of this change. If he disagreed with the clarification and change in the wording in the new 1795 act, he would have vetoed the Naturalization Act of 1795.

>> The 1795 amendment clearly suggests that the Framers wanted a child to be born on U.S. soil and of parents who were U.S citizens in order to be considered a “natural born Citizen.”

>> It appears that at first (1790) the Congress was willing to sacrifice the sanctity of a "natural born Citizen," for children born abroad, provided that both parents were U.S. citizens. They probably figured that with both parents being U.S. citizens, the child had a better chance of acquiring the values of the parents and were willing to waive the connection to the soil.

>> But by the time 1795 came along, the Congress must have realized that they could not diminish the exacting standard of an Article II "natural born Citizen," which required for natural born citizenship status that the child be born on U.S. soil to a mother and father both of whom were U.S. citizens at the time of the child's birth.

>> Hence, to further protect the new Nation, the Congress realized that if a child is not born on U.S. soil and if that child is born to U.S. citizen parents, he/she can still be a U.S. citizen, but not an Article II "natural born Citizen."

>> Hence, it is clear from the actions of these Founders/Framers that when it came to a "natural born Citizen" as it >> applied to the President, they mandated that the child be born on U.S. soil to a mother and father who were themselves U.S. citizens at the time of the birth.

>> This latter standard gave the greatest protection to the nation and is what Article II mandates.

cont.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Your lies are getting pretty thin. You said:

"Judge Bent needs to address the Framers including in the Constitution a reference to the law of nations, but no reference to the English common law. "

and I replied:

"Any competent lawyer should understand that the Constitutional mention of "the law of nations" is referring to international law, not Vattel's book."

If you were using the term "law of nations" as a synonym for "international law", then your statement is a non sequitur, otherwise my statement applies.

I would also point out that trying to tie me to a statement that admitted was wrong and corrected is a particularly obvious and pathetic type of straw man. George Washington was 14 years a resident of the US and (by the reasoning I gave above) I believe this implies that he was considered a citizen of the US from birth. It is incumbent on you to explain why General Washington was considered a resident of the US but not a citizen before it existed without having any authority whatsoever to support your argument. I don't believe that you can come up with any such scenario consistent with the known evidence.

ajtelles said...

Part 5

>> I would also add that it could be argued that the 1790 Act was unconstitutional, for Congress was attempting to amend Article II of the Constitution by way of an Act of Congress.

[Mario, this must be “original intent common sense” analysis. Since the Obama Obirthers NEVER contend that the 1790 act WAS constitutional since it is obvious that “... Congress was attempting to amend Article II … by … and Act of Congress” as you wrote 5 years and 3 months ago, well, the Obama Obirthers obviously agree with your 5 year old 'common sense original intent' analysis.]

>> Finally, it does not matter whether 1790 or 1795 is closer in time to the enactment of the Constitution.

>> At that time, we still had many of the Founding members in our legislature. Washington was still President. The act that is last in time is the one that counts and the one that has the power of law.

>> Further support for the two-parent requirement can be found in the Fourteenth Amendment itself which provides that a person born on U.S. soil or naturalized in the U.S. and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” is a citizen of the U.S.

>> I submit that that jurisdiction must be complete and not partial, and both territorial and political.

>> “To be ‘completely subject’ to the political jurisdiction of the United States is to be in no respect or degree subject to the political jurisdiction of any other government. Now, I take it that the children of aliens, whose parents have not only not renounced their allegiance to their native country, but are forbidden by its system of government, as well as by its positive laws, from doing so, and are not permitted to acquire another citizenship by the laws of the country into which they come, must necessarily remain themselves subject to the same sovereignty as their parents, and cannot, in the nature of things, be, any more than their parents, completely subject to the jurisdiction of such other country.” Wong Kim Ark (Chief Justice Fuller dissenting).

>> Hence, to be completely subject, we would need that both parents give the child U.S. citizenship and no other allegiance.

[Mario, “... both parents … child U.S. citizenship...” is perpetual “original intent common sense” that was in 1787 America, is today in 2014 America, and forever will be as long as America is free, relevant from generation to generation, election to election, POTUS to POTUS.]

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 6

>> Rep. John Bingham of Ohio, considered the father of the Fourteenth Amendment, confirms the construction the framers used in regards to birthright and jurisdiction while speaking on civil rights of citizens in the House on March 9, 1866:

>> " ... I find no fault with the introductory clause [S 61 Bill], which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents [plural, meaning two] not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen..."

>> Additionally, and putting aside the debate as to what “subject to the jurisdiction” means, the Fourteenth Amendment tells us that if you are born in the United States or naturalized there, and subject to its jurisdiction, you are a U.S. citizen.

>> Additionally, the Fourteenth Amendment in no way amended the requirements of an Article II "natural born Citizen," for it was passed to secure the citizenship rights of former slaves who may have been born on U.S. soil and to keep the Supreme Court from declaring the Civil Rights Act of 1866 to be unconstitutional for lack of Congressional authority to pass such a law or a future Congress from altering it by a simple majority vote.

>> Finally, the amendment uses the word “citizen.”
>> In other word even a naturalized person is also a citizen, just as one who is born on U.S. soil.

>> But we know that a naturalized citizen is not eligible to be President because he or she was not a “natural born Citizen” (i.e., did not acquire U.S. citizenship at the time of birth).

>> Hence, there must be a difference between the meaning of “citizen” and “natural born Citizen.”

>> If there were no difference, a naturalized person could maintain that he or she is a citizen of the U.S. under the Fourteenth Amendment and being a citizen is eligible to be President.

>> But we do not accept that.
>> Some have called for a constitutional amendment to change this.
>> Hence, the difference between the two terms must exist.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 7

[Next is the 1898 Wong Kim Ark reference on which Unknown focused and “expert” Obama Obirthers think posits and defends the Obama Obirther position that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS.]

>> Some argue that the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898) is the final word on “natural born Citizen” and that under that decision, as long as Obama was born on U.S. soil, he is a “natural born Citizen.”

>> It should be acknowledged that the concept of a person not being a U.S. citizen even though he was born on U.S. soil because his or her parents are not U.S. citizens was rejected by Wong Kim Ark. But this holding, which only tells us what a “citizen” is, has nothing to do with what a “natural born Citizen” is as that term is used in Article II of the Constitution.

>> Any reference in the decision to the term “natural born Citizen” is mere dicta.

>> Note: President Chester Arthur appointed Justice Horace Gray who wrote the opinion. Arthur, who was initially elected Vice-President, went to great lengths, including lying about when his father arrived in America from Ireland and burning his family papers, apparently to keep secret from the American public the fact that when he was born his father was not a U.S. citizen. Arthur then became President when a close Arthur supporter assassinated President Garfield.

>> Hence, the American voters never knew about Arthur’s true citizenship status and his presidency is no precedent on the issue.

>> In any event, and despite what the dissenting opinion said about the majority view allowing U.S. born children of foreigners to run for President, the Wong Kim Ark case, which had nothing to do with interpreting what “natural born Citizen” means as that term is used in Article II of the Constitution, only defined what a U.S. “citizen” is, not what a U.S. “natural born Citizen” is as that term is used in that Article.

>> In other words, all the case law and arguments as to what a “Citizen” is or is not do not answer the question of what is a “natural born Citizen.”

>> These arguments only go to the question of what is a “citizen.”

>> Finally, Section 301(g) INA has different requirements when conferring U.S. citizenship of a child born abroad, depending on whether the parents of the child are married and whether they are both U.S. citizens.

>> For those parents who are married and both U.S. citizens at the time of birth, there is no minimum age requirement for the parents nor is there any minimum time requirement of U.S. residency.

>> This category is the most liberal in granting the foreign-born child U.S. citizenship.

>> Hence, it can be seen that even our own Congress has recognized the profound impact on a child, regardless of where he/she is born in the world, of being born to one or two parents who are U.S. citizens.

>> We must keep in mind that citizenship under Congressional Acts is just that and not citizenship under the Constitution which at Article II prescribes the eligibility requirements to be President.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 8

“The Immigration and Nationality Act, or INA, was created in 1952.

“Before the INA, a variety of statutes governed immigration law but were not organized in one location. The McCarran-Walter bill of 1952, Public Law No. 82-414, collected and codified many existing provisions and reorganized the structure of immigration law. The Act has been amended many times over the years, but is still the basic body of immigration law.

INA: ACT 301
“Nationals and Citizens of the United States at Birth

Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401]

“The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

“[b...f]

(g) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was … .”


>> http://originalbirtherdocument18.blogspot.com/

or

>> http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/SLB/HTML/SLB/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-29/0-0-0-9696.html#0-0-0-375


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

It looks like you do not know that the law of nations is a body of law that existed since the Roman Empire (the Romans called it “jus gentium” and believed it had its source in the law of nature) and is not just the name of Vattel’s treatise which he wrote in 1758? You also do not know that the Founders and Framers did not view the law of nations as “international law,” a term that came into common use after the Framers adopted the Constitution. The Romans used the expression “jus inter gentes” to describe law that today we call international law. The law of nations had its source in natural law. It was natural law applied to the affairs of nations. Both natural law and the law of nations were in the eyes of the Founders and Framers universal and immutable. The natural law principles (principles of reason) upon which the law of nations was based were thought to apply to all civilized nations and therefore common to all such nations.

Following the Founding generation, the Founders and Framers wanted future presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military to be citizens only of the United States. Hence, they had to look to a law that assured them of that. That law was not positive or municipal law, which created dual allegiances and citizenships, but rather a law that would decide the matter of citizenship for all nations and produce a citizenship of just one nation. Hence, they looked to the law of nations for a definition of that citizen who would assure that the President and Commander was a citizen only of the United States. The universal citizenship concept that existed in the law of nations was “natural born citizen.” Indeed, a natural born citizen, being born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, was recognized by all civilized nations as the citizen of only one nation. If the child was born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, that child was a citizen of only the United States.

But then I should not be surprised at you not knowing these things, for you also believe that Washington was at least a “citizen of the United States” for 14 years and even from his birth in 1732. I missed that history lesson in school about the United States being around since that time.

Your Washington citizen vs. resident comment also demonstrates further lack of knowledge on your part. A person can be 50 years a resident of a nation, but one year a citizen thereof. This is fundamental immigration and naturalization law.

Anonymous said...

MichaelN asked: "An Article II "natural born Citizen" is one who is born in the US to US citizen parents, using your terms is, a "natural native of the country" .......... right?"

Michael, everything I've been trying to share has made it clear that nothing in that statement is correct. All natural natives of a country are natural born citizens.

It does not follow that the inverse is also true. SOME natural born citizens were not native-born but were foreign-born.

Your approach to what you read was to 1. draw 2. fire 3. aim.

You read a hypothetical quotation by children born-in-the-USA of citizen natives, all of whom were natural born citizens. The quote does not represent the foreign natural born citizens nor the native-born 14th Amendment citizens.
When it seems my words are contradictory, you should rethink them for what they actually say and don't say. ~

~Mario's response to Unknown via a series of questions for thoughtless state judges, hit the ball out of the ball park. I doubt the obots can answer a single one of them, nor even tried.

Their entire house of cards is a house of consensus opinion, and opinion based on not thinking about what they are adjudicating. Broad sweeping and unsupported assertions are the discourse tactics of little, lazy, or corrrupted minds.

Anyway, I adapted Mario's remarks into a two page two-column pdf;
http://h2ooflife.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/questions-for-native-birth-eligibility-judges.pdf

Pass it around.

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Mario illuminated the law of nations but erred about the natural law:

"The natural law principles (principles of reason) upon which the law of nations was based..."

It is erroneous to conflate principles of reason with the laws of nature. They are not connected.

The law of nature is defined by opposite camps in opposite ways. One is the law of the jungle; the strong have a natural right to dominate and rule the weaker; superior strength deserves superior power over others. That's the autocratic atheist's view.

The other is the law of equality. It does not respect strength but respects each individual's God-given natural rights.

Reason is not involved in the actual laws of natural rights because they are intrinsic to man's deepest consciousness, and extend to all social animal groups as well, in particular; the right of natural membership or the right to belong.
Human association considerations and membership laws assign that right primary importance, -with its priority second only to the right to live.

"a natural born citizen...was recognized by all civilized nations as the citizen of only one nation."

That sounds true but is false. Citizenship is not relevant; only blood citizenship is relevant. Natural born citizens are those born of parents who are citizens of only one nation.

Where their child is born is meaningless, as is any jus soli citizenship automatically bestowed by law by another nation because it cannot instill loyalty. Only parents and mentors can do that.

If you were born in hell, would that make you loyal to Satan? Hell no! Same with North Korea and other such hell-holes.
Loyalty does not come by citizenship but by parenting. Otherwise there'd be no need to instill patriotic values. They would be "built-in", which they aren't.

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

The pot calls the kettle black.

Mario rightfully exposes the Maskell fantasy (nbc means born of citizens parents, but can also mean born on U.S. soil) while he maintains his own fantasy that it requires not A nor B but A+B.

He can't accept the law of natural membership because it boots out any assigned relevance for borders.

I've spent the day on a new exposition clearly dismantling the view of citizenship that he ascribes to "natural law" but which is absolutely human creation.

It will be posted in a few days, but the pdf is online by itself and it completely dissolves the basis of the nativist doctrine, -both obot and birther.

I would ask for counter-arguments, but I know there aren't any. It would be like arguing against yourself.

The Damnable Doctrine of Nativist Citizenship

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/the-damnable-doctrine-of-nativist-citizenship/the-damnable-doctrine-of-nativist-citizenship-pt/

ajtelles said...

A universal concept...

Mario, today, March 26, 2014 at 9:02 PM, you gave Slartibartfast a brief and excellent tutorial, brevity being an example of what Shakespeare said is the "soul of wit," in which you mentioned -

>> "The universal citizenship concept
>> "that existed in the law of nations
>> "was “natural born citizen.” "


Mario, if you were having a "table talk" conversation with Vermont Judge Bent, how do you think he would answer the question that you asked Unknown/NotLinda on March 26, 2014 at 9:31 AM, included below?

And after his response, how would you clarify the one parent or two parent issue for him, using as your presuppositional starting point "The universal citizenship concept that existed in the law of nations?"

Your point to Unknown/NotLinda was -

>> "While he is on “parents,”
>> "he needs to tell us if before the Cable Act of 1922,
>> "there was such a thing as one parent of a U.S. citizen child
>> "having citizenship from the United States
>> "and another parent having it from a foreign nation."


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Slartibartfast said...

Mario said:

"It looks like you do not know that the law of nations is a body of law that existed since the Roman Empire (the Romans called it “jus gentium” and believed it had its source in the law of nature) and is not just the name of Vattel’s treatise which he wrote in 1758?"

On the contrary, my comments make it clear that I was saying that you appeared to be using it in the latter sense (which is ridiculous), and if you were using it in the former sense, then your argument was a non-sequitur. In other words, you once again misrepresent me---straw men, the mark of a weak argument.

" You also do not know that the Founders and Framers did not view the law of nations as “international law,” a term that came into common use after the Framers adopted the Constitution. The Romans used the expression “jus inter gentes” to describe law that today we call international law."

Yes, I know that---I was pointing out that the reference to "the law of nations" in the Constitution was what we now call "international law", not Vattel's book, which is what your comments seemed to imply.

" The law of nations had its source in natural law. It was natural law applied to the affairs of nations. Both natural law and the law of nations were in the eyes of the Founders and Framers universal and immutable. The natural law principles (principles of reason) upon which the law of nations was based were thought to apply to all civilized nations and therefore common to all such nations. "

Which has nothing to do with citizenship---the determination of who a country's citizens are is done without regard to the laws of other nations.

"Following the Founding generation, the Founders and Framers wanted future presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military to be citizens only of the United States. "

An unsupported assumption on your part. You are "begging the question"---assuming that your definition of "natural born citizen" is correct in order to establish that the founders didn't want people with dual citizenship to be president. At the very least, Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Monroe, Arthur and Vice President Agnew are counterexamples to this theory with the latter two having dual citizenship at birth.

"Hence, they had to look to a law that assured them of that. That law was not positive or municipal law, which created dual allegiances and citizenships, but rather a law that would decide the matter of citizenship for all nations and produce a citizenship of just one nation. Hence, they looked to the law of nations for a definition of that citizen who would assure that the President and Commander was a citizen only of the United States. The universal citizenship concept that existed in the law of nations was “natural born citizen.” Indeed, a natural born citizen, being born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, was recognized by all civilized nations as the citizen of only one nation. If the child was born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, that child was a citizen of only the United States. "

Not true. Any country that recognized citizenship by descent (something which the Constitution as originally written doesn't do) and didn't recognize expatriation would view the child of one of their citizens who had emigrated to the US and naturalized as a citizen. This is exactly the situation of Spiro Agnew.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

cont...

"But then I should not be surprised at you not knowing these things, for you also believe that Washington was at least a “citizen of the United States” for 14 years and even from his birth in 1732. I missed that history lesson in school about the United States being around since that time. "

Every time you willfully misrepresent me you just demonstrate that you are afraid to address my arguments on their merits. There wasn't a United States for President Washington to be a resident of in 1775, yet he was obviously considered one (unless you are arguing that the Founders wrote a Constitution which made George Washington ineligible for the presidency). A reasonable assumption is that, for purposes of Constitutional eligibility for the presidency, George Washington was considered to have been both a resident of and a (natural born) citizen of the US since his birth. Certainly he was a natural born Virginian. If you don't agree with this, then you need to explain when President Washington's residency in the US was considered to have started (and it must be prior to the Declaration of Independence) and why.


"Your Washington citizen vs. resident comment also demonstrates further lack of knowledge on your part. A person can be 50 years a resident of a nation, but one year a citizen thereof. This is fundamental immigration and naturalization law."

You really love your non-sequiturs, don't you. This one actually bites you in the ass. If it is possible for someone to have been considered resident in a nation before it existed, then it is possible for them to have been considered a citizen of said nation as well.

By the way, did you notice how your new lickspittle ajtelles just blew a hole in the center of your argument in his latest 8 part sycophantic opus?

Anonymous said...

Nash writes:

Just finished and online; 5 pages:

Obama, and Hawaiian DoH Director Fuddy’s Convenient Death

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/fuddys-convenient-death/

It begins...
All cold-blooded killers like to leave no loose ends that point back to them. Consequently, witnesses or hired underlings end up being dispatched to the next life so that they can never give testimony against secret criminals that could put those criminals on death row.
That danger to them is why the witness protection program was created. There are plenty of people who will kill other people for reasons of hate or profit. They have to be kept away from their would-be targets or they will end up dead.
But people in the public eye cannot just enter the witness protection program and disappear into a new identity in a new unknown location. They have to continue living their lives in the public eye and hope that secrets that they know, -which it would be better to not know, won’t eventually cause wheels to be put in motion that will figuratively drop a meteor on their head.

The sword of Damocles hangs over their head, which they have to live under everyday. Until it drops.
Sometimes it drops in very suspicious ways, like a “suicide” by shooting oneself in the back or some such unbelievable circumstances. But more often it drops in very, very subtle and believable ways.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/fuddys-convenient-death/

Ray said...

(1 of 2)

Talbot v. Janson, 3 Dall. 133 (1795), provides insight to then prevailing views regarding allegiance and citizenship.

What makes this particularly noteworthy is the background of the justices of the Supreme Court: Chief Justice Rutledge, and Justices Paterson, Wilson, Iredell, and Cushing.

John Rutledge – Continental Congress, delegate Constitutional Convention, signer of Constitution

William Paterson – delegate Constitutional Convention, signer of Constitution, framer of Judiciary Act of 1789

James Wilson – signer of Declaration of Independence, twice elected to the Continental Congress, delegate Constitutional Convention, signer of Constitution, leader of Pennsylvania Ratification Convention

James Iredell – leader of North Carolina Ratification Convention

William Cushing – Vice Chairman of the Massachusetts Ratification Convention

They are all variously Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers.

Excerpting points of interest from the case:

On the law, the following positions were taken in favour of the Appellant (Talbot).

But the abstract right of individuals to withdraw from the society of which they are members, is recognized by an uncommon coincidence of opinion; by every writer, ancient and modern; by the civilian, as well as by the common-law lawyer; by the philosopher, as well as the poet: It is the law of nature, and of nature’s god, pointing to ‘the wide world before us, where to chose our place of rest, and Providence our guide.’

With this law, however, human institutions have often been at variance; and no institutions more than the feudal system, which made the tyranny of arms, the basis of society; chained men to the soil on which they were born; and converted the bulk of mankind into the villeins, or slaves of a lord, or superior.

From the feudal system, sprung the law of allegiance; which pursuing the nature of its origin, rests on lands; for, when lands were all held of the Crown, then the oath of allegiance became appropriate: It was the tenure of the tenant, or vassal. Blac. Com. 366. The oath of fealty, and the ancient oath of allegiance, were, almost the same; both resting on lands; both designating the person to whom service should be rendered; though the one makes an exception as to the superior lord, while the other is an obligation of fidelity against all men. 2 Bl. Com. 53. Pal. 140. (ed. see “The Manner of Doing Homage and Fealty”, 17 Edw. 2 stat. 1., Ruff.)

Ray said...

(2 of 2)

Hence arose the doctrine of perpetual and universal allegiance. When, however, the light of reason was shed upon the human mind, the intercourse of man became more general and more liberal; the military was gradually changed for the commercial state; and the laws were found a better protection for persons and property, than arms.

But even while the practical administration of government was thus reformed, some portion of the ancient theory was preserved; and, among other things, the doctrine of perpetual allegiance remained, with the fictitious tenure of all lands from the Crown to support it. Yet, it is to be remembered, that whether in its real origin, or in its artificial state, allegiance, as well as fealty, rests upon lands, and it is due to persons.

Not so, with respect to Citizenship, which has arisen from the dissolution of the feudal system; and is a substitute for allegiance, corresponding with the new order of things.

Allegiance and citizenship, differ, indeed, in almost every characteristic. Citizenship is the effect of compact; allegiance is the offspring of power and necessity. Citizenship is a political tie; allegiance is a territorial tenure. Citizenship is the charter of equality; allegiance is a badge of inferiority. Citizenship is constitutional; allegiance is personal. Citizenship is freedom; allegiance is servitude. Citizenship is communicable; allegiance is repulsive. Citizenship may be relinquished; allegiance is perpetual. With such essential differences, the doctrine of allegiance is inapplicable to a system of citizenship; which it can neither serve to control, nor to elucidate.

On the points of law, the Counsel for the Appellee (Jansen), held the following doctrines:

I. That Ballard and Talbot were Americans by birth, and had done nothing which could work a lawful expatriation. It is conceded that birth gives no property in the man; but, on the principles of the American government, he may leave his country when he pleases, provided it is done bona fide, with good cause, and under the regulations prescribed by law. 1 Vatt. B. 1 c. 19.s. 220. 221. 223. 224. Grot. B. 2. c. 5.s.24. Puff. B. 8. c. 11. p. 872, and provided, also, that he goes to another country, and takes up his residence there, under an open and avowed declaration of his intention. Thus, the rule is fairly laid down in 2 Heinec. B. 2. c. 10. s. 230.p.220; requiring from the emigrant not only an act of departure, with the design to expatriate, but the act of joining himself to another state.


What is interesting and informative is that none of the Justices, all of whom were variously Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, took any issue with the clearly stated natural law/law of nations assertions of the Appellant (Talbot). Indeed their opinions echoed those ideas. Regarding expatriation they did not give an opinion, their concern in that regard was that a “statute of the United States, relative to expatriation is much wanted”

ajtelles said...

Softball...

Mario, today, March 27, 2014 at 1:22 AM, in part one, Slartibartfast lobbed a "non-sequitur" "straw men" hardball to you. Or, was it at you, and was it really softball?

After quoting your reference to the Roman understanding of “jus gentium,” they

>> "{... believed it had its source in the law of nature)
>> "and is not just the name of Vattel’s treatise which he wrote in 1758..."

S...fast then accused you of a non-sequitur and of raising a straw man if you were referring to the "former sense" and not the "latter sense" -

>> "then your argument was a non-sequitur.

>> "straw men, the mark of a weak argument."


Well, Mario, S...fast's "straw men" reference is itself a "weak argument" straw man finger wag at you, his 1st hardball slow pitch that didn't cross the plate.

His 2nd straw man is in his finger wag in his 2nd comment.

>> "I was pointing out that
>> "the reference to "the law of nations"
>> "in the Constitution
>> "was what we now call "international law",
>> "not Vattel's book, which is what your comments seemed to imply."

In reading your comment, Mario, it seems to me that the original intent point is that the 1787 understanding of the original birthers was THEIR 1787 understanding of the "law of nations," NOT the 2014 "now" understanding about "international law" that S...fast prefers to emphasize.


S...fast's "now" emphasis is the 2nd hardball that also did not cross the plate because it is a digression from 1787 to 2014 and it does not refute your main point.


Mario, it looks that S...fast did not like your tutorial.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Ajtelles and Unknown,
Professor Robert G. Natelson does a good job explaining how to interpret the Constitution."

Natelson was explaining how to interpret the Constitution when, as we both noted:

"Natelson states:
''Most importantly, the President and Vice President had to be natural-born citizens or citizens at the time of ratification. We know exactly what the Founders meant by the phrase 'natural born citizen' because they adapted it from the English legal term, 'natural born subject,' which in Britain defined who could serve in Parliament or the Privy Council. Essentially, a natural born citizen was one who met either one of two requirements. First, a person qualified if born in within the United States or within American territory, even if the person's parents were aliens. Alternately, an individual qualified even if born outside the country if the individual's father was an American citizen not then engaged in traitorous or felonious activities.''"


Natelson's book is *your* reference, Mr. Apuzzo. He doesn't have the stature of Amar, Olson, or Tribe, but you were not wrong to cite him. He was a law professor. We can learn from Natelson. What's weird is that you take losing all your cases and getting refuted by your own authorities as *teaching* opportunities. Who do you think wants to enroll in Failure 101?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"That is for what I cited him. Regarding his position on the meaning of a 'natural born citizen,' that is a much different story."

Here's how you cited him:

"The Founders and Framers studied and were greatly influenced by Vattel. R.G. Natelson, The Original Constitution 49 and 69 (2010) ('Vattel was probably the Founders’ favorite authority on international law . . . .' and his, treatise, The Law of Nations, was their favorite)."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2012_11_01_archive.html

Mr. Apuzzo, obots have been explaining that very issue to you for years. I was far from the first when I wrote, in a comment here on 8 Aug 2013, "The law of nations pertains to international accord and has nothing to do with who can be president." Slartibartfast re-explained it here just yesterday. Your own reference confirms what we've been telling you. So do the results of your own lawsuits.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"He said that we know exactly what the Founders meant by the natural born citizen clause. Yet, Unknown tells us that she does not know how the Framers defined a 'natural born citizen.' But yet Professor Natelson tells us that we know 'exactly' how they defined one. Maybe Unknown can explain this difference of opinions for us."

That's the active refusal to learn that keeps you in perpetual defeat. The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not define "natural born citizen". I've already explained that to you, multiple times, and much better sources than myself have explained it. Professor Natelson did not disagree. Remaining ignorant is your own choice.

Can we nevertheless determine what the Founders' phrase means? We kind of have to. You are free to rag on your own cited source, but really you're just making another excuse for not learning anything. First thing, before we get to Natelson's use of "exactly", we must recognize that the Article II term "natural-born citizen" came from the English "natural born subject" and not from Vattel's French "naturels ou indigènes".

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I am also suspicious about why Natelson would have stuck his neck out like he did without any explanation. If you will note, he wrote the book in 2010, which is after Obama was elected and when the debate on whether he is a 'natural born citizen' was already raging."

As you now cast these aspersions on your own source, how about you cite some of the legal scholars that actually took your side in what you call a raging debate? I think the closest you can get are Herb Titus, Jerome Corsi, and half a dozen lawyers who are noteworthy only for losing all their cases.

Or let's embrace your suspicion and look to sources written before Barack Obama was the issue. I grant that until U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) there were respectable doubts on jus soli. Ruling out sources so old that they were considering the time before Wong, or so new that Obama was the issue, still leaves us with over a century of American legal scholarship. What have you got? Feel free to turn the question around on me.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of IV

1. I said:

"It looks like you do not know that the law of nations is a body of law that existed since the Roman Empire (the Romans called it “jus gentium” and believed it had its source in the law of nature) and is not just the name of Vattel’s treatise which he wrote in 1758?"

To which you responded:

“On the contrary, my comments make it clear that I was saying that you appeared to be using it in the latter sense (which is ridiculous), and if you were using it in the former sense, then your argument was a non-sequitur. In other words, you once again misrepresent me---straw men, the mark of a weak argument.”

+++++

There is absolutely nothing which could lead any reasonable reader to conclude that, when I wrote that Article I, Section 8, Clause 10 refers to the law of nations and that the original Constitution makes no reference to the English common law, especially given my years of writing and speaking about the law of nations as a body of law about which Vattel wrote and of which the Founders and Framers were so very much fond, I was implying that the Framers were citing Vattel’s treatise, The Law of Nations, rather than the general body of law called the law of nations. So what does that say about you? As to your point that my intended argument is a non-sequitur, I would love to hear your silent argument.

2. You said:

"Any competent lawyer should understand that the Constitutional mention of "the law of nations" is referring to international law, not Vattel's book."

To which I responded:

"You also do not know that the Founders and Framers did not view the law of nations as “international law,” a term that came into common use after the Framers adopted the Constitution. The Romans used the expression “jus inter gentes” to describe law that today we call international law."

To which you responded:

“Yes, I know that---I was pointing out that the reference to "the law of nations" in the Constitution was what we now call "international law", not Vattel's book, which is what your comments seemed to imply.”

+++++

Clearly, you are feigning to know when in fact you did not know. You believed that the law of nations is the equivalent of international law. You and other Obots like to equate the two, for it gives you the chance to trash the law of nations as “international law,” which you add is so un-American (when it suits your political agenda).

3. I said:

"The law of nations had its source in natural law. It was natural law applied to the affairs of nations. Both natural law and the law of nations were in the eyes of the Founders and Framers universal and immutable. The natural law principles (principles of reason) upon which the law of nations was based were thought to apply to all civilized nations and therefore common to all such nations. "

To which you responded:

“Which has nothing to do with citizenship---the determination of who a country's citizens are is done without regard to the laws of other nations.”

+++++

It is evident that you do not understand what the law of nations was to the Founders and Framers. They did not view it as “the law of other nations,” but rather the law of all nations which included their own.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of IV

You also do not understand the difference between being citizens, who after the original citizens were made by positive and municipal law, and being natural born citizens, who were made by natural law and the law of nations. After the original citizens were created by the American Revolution, the Framers left it up to Congress to make more citizens through positive and municipal law (laws of naturalization). But as to a natural born citizen, they did not give Congress any such power, for that status belonged by natural inheritance to children born in the country to parents who were its citizens. That was a status that was as universal and immutable as the law of nature and the law of nations. No positive or municipal law was needed or allowed to create that status. Minor v. Happersett (1875) (children born in “a” country to citizen parents) demonstrates the universality and immutability of this principle.

The concepts of citizen and natural born citizen are illuminated by Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857). The problem that Dred Scott had was proving that slaves were part of the people who voluntarily associated together to break the political bands with Great Britain and to form the free and independent states which then became the United States. The Court (and Minor) explained that those people were the original citizens. For Dred Scott, it was a matter of showing that his ancestors going back to the Founding were citizens, not that they were natural born citizens. If he would have succeeded in proving his ancestors were citizens, then he would not have needed any naturalization (to which neither he nor his ancestors were entitled under then-existing laws), for he would have inherited the status of a citizen from his parents. But he would have been more than a citizen, for he would have also been like Virginia Minor a natural born citizen. He would have been born in the country to not only parents who were citizens, but also have demonstrated that he was the U.S.-born heir of U.S.-born citizen ancestors and therefore a natural born citizen.

4. I said:

"Following the Founding generation, the Founders and Framers wanted future presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military to be citizens only of the United States."

To which you responded:

“An unsupported assumption on your part. You are "begging the question"---assuming that your definition of "natural born citizen" is correct in order to establish that the founders didn't want people with dual citizenship to be president. At the very least, Presidents Washington, Jefferson, Monroe, Arthur and Vice President Agnew are counterexamples to this theory with the latter two having dual citizenship at birth.”

+++++

I am not begging any question. The historical and legal record demonstrates that the Founders’ and Framers’ purpose for relying upon the natural born citizen clause was to keep out of the highly sensitive Office of President and Commander in Chief foreign and monarchical influence and that they expected and needed future person who were to be President and Commander to be in allegiance, loyal, and faithful from the moment of birth only to the United States. Additionally, that record also shows that a natural born citizen excluded anyone “subject to a foreign power.” See, among other sources, the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and Rep. John Bingham’s comments on what a natural born citizen was. Moreover, the Founders and Framers did not believe in dual allegiance and citizenship. This reality leads to only one reasonable conclusion which is that they expected future Presidents and Commanders to be from the moment of birth in allegiance and therefore the citizen of only the United States.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

As to the early Presidents, I have long ago explained that being grandfathered by Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, they did not have to be natural born citizens, but rather just “Citizens of the United States.” This special dispensation allowed people from the Founding period, who could not possibly be natural born citizens, to be eligible to be President. Both Chester Arthur and Barack Obama (and Spiro Agnew, even if he was not a natural born citizen which you do not demonstrate) are no legal precedents on the meaning of a natural born citizen, for the merits of their alleged natural born citizen status have never been ruled upon by the U.S. Supreme Court.

5. I said:

"Hence, they had to look to a law that assured them of that. That law was not positive or municipal law, which created dual allegiances and citizenships, but rather a law that would decide the matter of citizenship for all nations and produce a citizenship of just one nation. Hence, they looked to the law of nations for a definition of that citizen who would assure that the President and Commander was a citizen only of the United States. The universal citizenship concept that existed in the law of nations was “natural born citizen.” Indeed, a natural born citizen, being born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, was recognized by all civilized nations as the citizen of only one nation. If the child was born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, that child was a citizen of only the United States. "

To which you responded:

“Not true. Any country that recognized citizenship by descent (something which the Constitution as originally written doesn't do) and didn't recognize expatriation would view the child of one of their citizens who had emigrated to the US and naturalized as a citizen. This is exactly the situation of Spiro Agnew.”

+++++

You do not understand that when historically it was said (Horace Binney and Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark) that the United States did not recognize citizenship by descent alone (hence needing birth in the country or a naturalization law), what was meant was that one could not establish to be a “citizen” (not to be conflated and confounded with a natural born citizen) only by being born to a citizen. Rather, what was needed was either birth in the country or a naturalization Act of Congress to acquire that status. This was the English common law rule under which birth in the country, without the aid of a naturalization Act of Parliament, was sufficient for acquiring the status of a “natural-born subject” from birth (which applied to make a subject of a colony and later a citizen of a state), not the American national common law rule under which birth in the country alone was not sufficient for acquiring any type of citizenship status (which applied to make two types of national citizenship which the Constitution calls “natural born citizen” and “citizen of the United States”). Additionally, the English common law rule has no application to natural born citizens, who inherit their status from a combination of being born in the country (jus soli) to citizen parents (jus sanguinis). Moreover, under American common law, the means by which one became a citizen was tied to the means by which one became a natural born citizen, i.e., only by birth in the country to citizen parents. Birth in the country alone was not sufficient to make a citizen, let alone a natural born citizen. Only birth in the country to citizen parents would do. This strict common law rule presented citizenship problems for children born out of the United

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

States to U.S. citizen parents and for children born in the United States to former slaves and alien parents. Congress abrogated that common law through its naturalization Acts (for children born out of the United States), including the Civil Rights Act of 1866 (for children born in the United States), and eventually through the Fourteenth Amendment (again for children born in the United States), as interpreted and applied by Wong Kim Ark.

6. I said:

"Your Washington citizen vs. resident comment also demonstrates further lack of knowledge on your part. A person can be 50 years a resident of a nation, but one year a citizen thereof. This is fundamental immigration and naturalization law."

To which you responded:

“You really love your non-sequiturs, don't you. This one actually bites you in the ass. If it is possible for someone to have been considered resident in a nation before it existed, then it is possible for them to have been considered a citizen of said nation as well.”

+++++

While you claim that you misstated when you wrote that Washington had to be a least a 14-year citizen of the United States in order to be eligible to be President, you still insist that he was a citizen of the United States from the time of his birth in 1732. You fail to understand that the fact that one is a resident does not make one necessarily a citizen. Again, a person can be 50 years a resident of the United States, but only a one-year citizen thereof. You do not properly understand Article II’s 14-year residency requirement. If you read it carefully, you will see that it says that one has to be “fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.” It uses the word “within” the United States, not “of” the United States. Within only requires that someone was in a certain physical place. It does not mean that one had a relationship to any specific political entity such as being the citizen of a nation or its resident. So, George Washington was a resident of the physical place, a colony, which became the state of Virginia and eventually a part of the United States. That is where he grew up, subjected to and reared in its customs and way of life which, other than the political relationship with Great Britain, did not change with the Revolution. He did that since his birth in 1732. Article II’s residency requirement was written with the word “within” so Founders like Washington could satisfy its 14-year requirement. Again, his residency requirement had nothing to do with his citizenship requirement which necessitated a commitment to an existing political movement or entity and which he satisfied by adhering to the American Revolution. So, Washington’s residency started with his birth in 1732, but his state citizenship started on July 4, 1776, and his U.S. citizenship started when the Constitution was ratified in 1788 and made retroactive to July 4, 1776.
So, Slartibartast, I have addressed all the merits of all your arguments. As you can see, your arguments all fail.

Unknown said...

Slarti bartfasted:
"Why have I wasted so much time on people that have nothing but their hate for President Obama?"

A hobby?

ajtelles said...

An example of Obama Obirther hate...


Slartibartfast asked the universe on March 24, 2014 at 7:23 PM -


>> "Why have I wasted so much time on people that have nothing but their hate for President Obama?"


On March 27, 2014 at 1:23 AM, S...fast expressed specific malice and hate...


>> "By the way, did you notice how your new lickspittle ajtelles just blew a hole in the center of your argument in his latest 8 part sycophantic opus?"


S...fast, what is Mario's "argument?"

S...fast, what is the "center?"

S...fast, can you articulate Mario's argument without resorting to intellectual "cachucha?"

- - - - - - - - - -

American Heritage Dictionary
ca-chu-cha n.

"An Andalusian solo dance in 3/4 time."


Cachucha in context is expressing an opinion as if talking to oneself, and being more garrulous than voluble.

Mario, I understand now why you go toe-to-toe with S...fast, but in a way it's like talking with 2 year old with limited vocabulary.

S...fast's methods in communicating reminds me of a book that I'm reading, the book by Romanian defector Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa called "DISinformation, Former Spy Chief Reveals Secret Strategies For Undermining Freedom, Attacking Religion, and Promoting Terrorism."

DISinformation is nefarious, while MISinformation is usually innocent, unless the MISinformation is persistent as a strategy to undermine and, as Pacepa explains, to "frame" an issue and a person, and "framing" in either a positive way, a guy is good, or a negative way, a guy is bad.

Mario, in your commentary, your are not saying that BHObama is "bad" as a person. You are saying that BHObama is NOT a 'natural born Citizen."

S...fast, however, and other Obama Obirthers, consistently try to "frame" BHObama as a "good" guy, and they try to "frame" you as a "bad" guy for simply expressing your erudite opinion that BHObama is not an Article II Section 1 Clause 5 'natural born Citizen' because he was not born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents and so he is consequently not "... eligible to the Office of the President."


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Anonymous said...

A.Nash writes:

Bravo to Ray for the excellent find regarding "allegiance" and its insignificance, (like I've been saying for a while now).

The nativist doctrine has completely infected both sides of the debate. Mario and the nativists+ are one side of the coin, while the obots are the tail side.
What do they both embrace in common? Ten falsehoods.

1. Natural national membership is tied to birth location.

2. Natural born citizen is a term of legal artifice.

3. The word "natural" does not modify the word "citizen".

4. The word "natural" had no decisive bearing on the meaning of the "term of art"

5. Ancient law determines the meaning of the words natural born citizen.

6. Natural Law alone is not preeminent and determinative of citizenship.

7. Human law and arbitrary definitions determine citizenship.

8. Humans are subservient to the authority of government over their natural right to belong to their own country.

9. John Jay underlined the word "born" for no necessary reason.

10. The word natural can be dropped from nbc and it would mean the same thing; which is determined by each side's doctrinal definition.

Both sides are wrong and stupidly clinging to their fallacious dogmas.

"It's easier to fool someone than to convince them that they've been fooled. Mark Twain.

find the truth at obama--nation.com

Anonymous said...

A. Nash writes:

Both obots and nativist birthers share the belief of native-birth being a prime factor in presidential eligibility, but Mario's side goes overboard on the side of caution, while the obots throw caution to the wind with virtually anyone born of aliens in America or born anywhere of at least one citizen parent being eligible to be president.

But they don't and can't border their belief with a requirement of native-birth alone because that is not to be found anywhere as a qualification. So they depend on its backup; citizenship from birth.

That requires that they part company with the birthers when it comes to foreign-born Americans who also are citizens from birth. But then that presents a problem of its own; which is: "What kind of citizens are they?"

Are they what the founders defined them as in the 1st Congress; "natural born citizens"? Or are they naturalized citizens only?

If the later, then how could they be eligible to be President? Aren't naturalized citizens barred?

In their world, 14th Amendment citizens can't be labeled as naturalized-at-birth, because no one will accept that any naturalized citizens are natural citizens.

Hence they are boxed into a corner and required to insist that they are natural born citizens because they acquired citizenship at the time they were born, -pay no mind to how they acquired it!

Thus by their distorted definition, foreign-born children of American couples have to be considered as natural born citizens. (which they are)

The heart of the matter is the question: What is the basis of the government's recognition of their citizenship? Is it merely recognizing that which naturally is, or is it making that which is not into that which it needs to be?

If the latter, then by what authority? There's none in the Constitution. Which makes the first possibility the only possibility.
A uniform rule of naturalization only covered the qualifications for the naturalization process, nothing else. All added statements are merely recognition statements of fact.

Anonymous said...

Unless you are me, you are likely to not understand the fundamental nature of citizenship. But no problem, that can easily be fixed. Simply read what you will read from no one else, anywhere, anytime, and it will open your eyes to all of the truth that has escaped your attention while in the fog of legal-minded doctrines.

It's right at your finger-tips; the dawn of a new understanding...
@ The Patriot Post;

The Damnable Doctrine of Nativist Citizenship, Part I
By Adrien Nash · Mar. 27, 2014

It begins....
In the view of Americans who honor the Constitution, Barack Obama is an on-going violation of its presidential eligibility restriction which bars all who are not natural born citizens, but while together in recognizing Obama's ineligibility, they are not together in recognizing what a natural born citizen actually is.

Natural citizens result from birth to citizens; new Americans result from birth to Americans without regard to any Earth coordinates or political boundaries, just as new family members result from birth to married parents without any regard for whether or not they were born in the home that the parents own, or born in a place that others own.

The place and time and duration and difficulty of birth are all irrelevant factors in the immutable right of the mother and father to own their own child. Owning one's own is a Natural Right – a right of nature by a law of nature; the law of natural membership. That is derived from the fact of how nature, including human nature, is intrinsically wired.

The right to own what is ours is as elemental to the nature of sentient beings as the physiological demand for air is to the nature of the lungs.

No one has a right to take from us that which is rightfully ours, whether it be our things, our children, or our lives.

Our innate sense of that right is not something that is acculturated into us. Rather, it is an element of our primal nature. It does not spring from the granted permission of government or laws. It springs from the core structure of our being.

So we humans innately recognize our right to own what is ours, while governments work to erode that right by making laws and regulations which take that which is ours from us. But that's another subject....

http://patriotpost.us/commentary/24393

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

Do you really believe that anyone could be so stupid to think that you say anything of value on this blog?

Like I have told you many times already, the best you do is kiss up to who you pass off as authorities who in the end say as much as you do.

Maybe you can apply to them for a job.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

Here is one of the authorities you have chosen. In his 2011 Congressional Research Service report, Jack Maskell concluded:

"The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term "natural born" citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship "by birth" or "at birth", either by being born "in" the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to foreign parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship "at birth". Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an "alien" required to go through the legal process of "naturalization" to become a U.S. citizen."

"Qualifications for President and the 'Natural Born' Citizenship Eligibility Requirement." Congressional Research Service report. November 14, 2011.

As I have previously explained, Maskell defeats himself by his own contradictory conclusion. Our early Congress in the early naturalization acts (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855) treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. Hence, by his own rule, Maskell would have to disqualify such children from being natural born citizens. But in the first part of his conclusion he contradicts himself when he says that such children are natural born citizens. So Maskell should tell us which way does he want it.

Another problem with Maskell’s conclusion is that he erroneously assumes that a person who was not born a U.S. citizen and therefore born an alien is required to go “through the legal process of ‘naturalization’ to become a U.S. citizen.” If what he wrote is correct, how do we explain that the Founders were not born U.S. citizens, but rather English natural-born subjects, and became U.S. citizens without going through Maskell’s legal process of naturalization? Also, persons are naturalized at birth and even after birth without having to go through any legal process of naturalization. These include children born in the United States to one or two alien parents (under the Fourteenth Amendment and 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a) they are “citizens of the United States” at birth), children born out of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents (under Acts of Congress they are “citizens of the United States” at birth), and children born out of the United States to alien parents who naturalize during the child’s minority (under Acts of Congress they are “citizens of the United States” after birth).

So, Unknown/NotLinda, these are the authorities that you have chosen.

Unknown said...

maybe maskell should read the 14th amendment of US Constitution and see what persons born in the US and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are called. If he can find a higher authority in the US than that then he should let us know. A honest, decent person would try to amend A2 to make a citizen eligible instead of trying to put a square peg in a round hole as mario has pointed out. As it stands now a federal janitor has to have a legit draft card and social security number but the fraud president does not.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Once again you resort to straw man attacks---this time against Jack Maskell.

If any naturalization act referred specifically to the naturalization of native-born children of aliens, then you would be right about the contradiction, however, as I'm sure you well know, none of them do that. We know that the clauses you refer to definitely apply to the foreign-born children of aliens, but it is only your erroneous supposition regarding the native-born children of aliens that conflicts with what Maskell says. Native-born children are clearly citizens by the 14th Amendment and, as the Binney quote which ajtelles posted states, the 14th Amendment is simply declaratory of the law under the Constitution as originally written. Thus the writers of the first naturalization acts would have understood the native-born children of aliens to be citizens, which is consistent with Maskell's interpretation but contradictory to yours. You could easily prove me wrong by producing the naturalization records for a native-born child, but you can't do that, can you?

As to your other point, you assume that the Founders were naturalized (by some unspecified act) rather than being considered citizens according to the laws of their individual states (i.e. George Washington was considered to have the same type and tenure of United States citizenship as Virginian citizenship).

Once again, we see that you can only establish your conclusion by begging the question---no wonder you haven't been successful in court.

To subject you to the same standard that you try to subject us, can you cite any legal authority which says that any natural born subject of one of the 13 colonies was ineligible for the presidency without the grandfather clause?

Can you explain why the first draft of the eligibility clause didn't include the grandfather clause? Do you think that the Founders were too stupid to realize that they were making themselves ineligible until St. George Tucker spoke up about those like himself and Alexander Hamilton who were not born in the colonies?

Slartibartfast said...

ajtelles,

As I pointed out above, the Binney quote is devastating to Mario's argument. If the 14th Amendment is declaratory of the law under the Constitution as originally written (and makes Wong Kim Ark as much a citizen as Virginia Minor and by operation of the same principle), then it couldn't have created Mario's ill-defined "citizen of the United States class" leaving us with naturalized citizens and natural born citizens together comprising the group of "citizens of the United States".

Not only does this imply that the native-born children of aliens were considered citizens from the day the Constitution was ratified (before, actually), but that they must have been natural born as well since Congress hadn't established uniform rules of naturalization at that point (not to mention that, by law, Mr. Wong could not have been a naturalized citizen).

Congratulations! If you are a stealth obot who has been trying to puff Mario up with your incessant toadying and make him believe himself to be an erudite scholar only to make statements which lay bare the flaws in his argument, well done! If, on the other hand, you are sincerely trying to do nothing more than supplant MichaelN as Mario's chief lickspittle, then you probably didn't do yourself any favors.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"All natural born citizens are citizens. Not all citizens are natural born citizens. Now let us just borrow a part from natural born citizen and add it to citizen, but use the same logic. We get: all natural born citizens are born citizens. Not all born citizens are natural born citizens. In other words, being a citizen and a born citizen is necessary to be a natural born citizen, but it is not sufficient. The simple reason for that is twofold and interconnected. First, we still have to account for and give meaning to the qualifier 'natural.'"

The term "natural" is from the Latin naturalis, from natura, meaning by birth. The Latin "nat" root also refers to birth in "native". Furthermore, the word "nation" shares the same root.

There are exactly two paths to citizenship discernible in the Constitution, and exactly two uses of "natural". The same two. Did you think that was coincidence? We have the naturalized and the natural born.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"As is confirmed by the James Madison Administration in the James McClure Citizenship Case of 1811, in these acts Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born."

The acts say nothing about the citizenship of children born in the U.S.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Second, while Congress has the constitutional power to make one a born citizen, it does not have such power to make one a natural born citizen."

The proclamations of losing attorneys to do not constitute legal or historical evidence.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Apart from Founders like David Ramsay and St. George Tucker and U.S. Supreme Court cases like Inglis (1830) and Shanks (1830), which confirmed that the United States did not follow the English common law jus soli rule"

There were credible doubts on jus soli up until U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. Wong settled it going forward, and opined that jus soli had been the rule in the U.S. from the time of the Constitution as originally established.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Wong Kim Ark even cited and quoted Minor and its common law definition of a natural born citizen without any criticism."

But Wong did not interpret Minor as you do, and the Supreme Court is authoritative in interpreting its previous rulings.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Chief Justice Fuller in dissent, joined by Justice Harlan, was not willing to find Wong a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment."

And was not willing to adopt your definition of natural born citizen. "In my judgment, the children of our citizens born abroad were always natural-born citizens from the standpoint of this Government." Furthermore, the dissent recognized that the majority opinion made native-born children of foreigners eligible for the presidency.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Regardless of what rule Wong Kim Ark applied to make Wong a born citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, it neither held that he was a natural born citizen nor did it change the definition of that clause."

Closing your eyes to why you lose does not mean you win. "All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens." -- NJ Office of Administrative Law in Purpura v. Obama, quoting U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, quoting U.S. v. Rhodes.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The problem for you is that you do not present Obama and Cruz as natural born citizens under the common law of which the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor spoke and which it said the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution."

The problem for you bad been that the judges actually read the cases.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Rather, you present Obama under laws that do not control on the question of who is a natural born citizen."

Every single court that reached the merits of your theory rejected it, and their citations all go to Wong as the controlling case.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

Do you really believe that you accomplish anything here by just saying "no" to everything that I say without providing your own sources, reasoning, and logic which together present a convincing argument?

It is abundantly clear that you are not able to put together a cohesive argument, supported by historical and legal evidence, reason, and logic. So you just have to keep repeating your little snarky negative comments with nothing of substance to support your position.

Unknown/NotLinda, so far you have lost this debate big time. Maybe you can still pull through. But please provide your position with proper support rather than the same old same old.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda and Slartibartfast,

I of II

Your and that of other Obots’ whole analysis regarding a natural born citizen is misplaced. While you recognize that the issue is who is a natural born citizen, you tell us who is a citizen and mistakenly believe you are telling us who is a natural born citizen.

Since the Founding and before, there has never been any doubt as to who are the natural born citizens. On the other hand, there have been doubts about who are the citizens. It is here that you err. You conflate and confound the question of who is a citizen with the question of who is a natural born citizen.

There is no question that the first citizens were the Founders. There is no doubt that they were citizens. But their status is unique, for it came about through the American Revolution. The challenge for our nation has been who shall be citizens after the first generation of citizens.

Congress, since 1790, has been addressing the question of who are the citizens, always changing who they are for one reason or another. In all its changes, Congress, because the Constitution not only refers to the natural born citizens, requires the President and Vice-President to be a natural born citizen, and gives Congress no power outside a constitutional amendment to change its meaning, has always had to respect who the natural born citizens are.

Congress has always been clear as to what persons born out of the United States are citizens. By telling us in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855that the children of naturalized persons became citizens upon the naturalization of their parents, it also informed us that children born in the United States to alien parents were alien born and could become citizens upon the naturalization of their parents if done during their minority and when dwelling in the United States. There is no doubt that Congress acted upon children born in the United States through this legislation. In this legislation, Congress basically adopted the ancient rule partus sequitur patrem (children follow the condition of their parents). A child born out of the country to U.S. citizen parents was a citizen like the parents. A child born to alien parents was an alien like the parents. A child being the child of an alien who naturalized did not change his or her circumstance by the place of his or her birth. In other words, it did not matter where that child was born. If the child was the child of an alien who naturalized, the child kept that status even if born in the United States. Again, the child simply followed the condition of the parents.

Under the common law, which followed the partus sequitur patrem maxim and also added birth in the country as an additional requirement, how a person became a citizen by birth in the country was tied to how a person become a natural born citizen. They both required birth in the country to citizen parents. The legal and political battle has been, for children born in the country, how to create a definition of a citizen that is different from that of a natural born citizen. In its practical sense, that battle has been how to get children born in the United States to alien parents to also become citizens. This battle has raged throughout our history because America was also populated by slaves, American Indians, and many children born here to parents who at the time of their birth were still citizens or subject of foreign nations.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

The Civil War and its liberation of the slaves provided the first major national impetus to address the question of who were the citizens by birth in the country. The Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, which were a product of that war and liberation, provided the first means that were different than those that applied to a natural born citizen for a person born in the United States to become a citizen. They both addressed who are citizens by birth in the United States. The former said children born in the United States and “not subject to any foreign power” (a negative) were citizens. As can be seen, it made no reference to citizen parents. The latter said children born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” (an affirmative) are citizens. Likewise, it also made no reference to citizen parents. By not making any reference to citizen parents, the Civil Rights Act allowed freed blacks born in the United States to alien parents (slaves) who were not subject to any foreign power to become citizens. The Fourteenth Amendment was not as clear as the Civil Rights Act. It created doubts because of its ambiguous “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause.

Minor v. Happersett (1875) told us the Fourteenth Amendment did not define a natural born citizen. It said it was defined under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. It said that under that common law, children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth were natural born citizens. It added that under that common law, all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners.” This is consistent with the fact that being a citizen by birth in the country was tied to being a natural born citizen. So, there could be no other citizens by birth in the country. Because of the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment, Minor added that “there have been doubts” regarding whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was a citizen. Minor did not have to resolve those doubts because, with Virginia Minor being a natural born citizen, there was no doubt that she was a citizen.

U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) resolved the Fourteenth Amendment “citizen” doubts left unresolved by Minor. Wong Kim Ark was a Fourteenth Amendment case, not an Article II natural born citizen one, pure and simple. Wong held that children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents were “citizens” by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment as interpreted by reference to the colonial English common law which, not only did not require that a child born in the King’s dominion to be born a subject had to be born free from being subject of any foreign power, but also made no requirement for citizen parents. Wong Kim Ark held that the Fourteenth Amendment removed the doubts regarding a citizen by birth in the country. So, Wong resolved a question regarding who are the citizens, not who are the natural born citizens.

As we can see, the original universal and immutable meaning of a natural born citizen has never been disturbed by any constitutional amendment, Act of Congress, or U.S. Supreme Court decision. What has changed over time has been the definition of a citizen. So, your whole presentation has been misplaced. While you believe that you are directing your energy and efforts toward the question of who are the natural born citizens, in reality your work is directed to who are the citizens, not who are the natural born citizens. Today, a natural born citizen is still what it was when the Framers and Ratifiers adopted and ratified the Constitution, i.e., a child born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. quoted:
"Consider the following as a useful tool for understanding the natural born citizen clause:
7 FAM 1131.6-2 Eligibility for Presidency (TL:CON-68; 04-01-1998)
'a. It has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person [...]'

And commented:
"While it errs in calling a person a 'natural born citizen' [...]
Here is what its paragraph d should look like if the State Department were commenting [...]"


Mr. Apuzzo, you call it a "useful tool", but rather than learning from it, you seek to instruct the State Department.

The manual dates from 1998 and notes the lack of definite judicial expression. Today we have more guidance from courts. Your changes would be completely inappropriate, as you would set the State Department against the decisions of every U.S. court that has reached the matters.

ajtelles said...

Part 1

How old are you...

On March 28, 2014 at 1:17 AM, Slartibartfast wrote something inane about the 14th Amendment and then finished with hate and malice... again... again.

Quote the last paragraph -

>> "Congratulations!

>> "If you are a stealth obot
>> "who has been trying to puff Mario
>> "up with your incessant toadying
>> "and make him believe himself to be an erudite scholar
>> "only to make statements which lay bare the flaws in his argument,
>> "well done!

>> "If, on the other hand,
>> "you are sincerely trying to do nothing more
>> "than supplant MichaelN as Mario's chief lickspittle,
>> "then you probably didn't do yourself any favors."

- - - - - - - - - -

_S...fast, how old are you?
_S...fast, are you still in college?
_S...fast, are you retired from full-time employment?
_S...fast, are you employed part-time?

_S...fast, are you getting paid by DARPA to shill for and to position, aka to "frame," BHObama as Article II eligible to be POTUS?

_S...fast, are you an independent contractor "framing" your Article II Section 1 Clause 5 inanity with innuendo, malice and hate?

S...fast, another word for innuendo is disinformation, the deliberate attempt to misrepresent an idea or a person, and to position, aka “frame,” an idea or a person, either positively or negatively.

S...fast, your presence on Mario's forum is for a reason, so what is YOUR reason?

S...fast, your effort here on Mario's forum to position, aka to "frame," BHObama as fulfilling Article II with ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent 'cause the 14th amendment implies that he fulfills the Article II requirement, well, that is inane.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 2

S...fast, why do you continue with what is obvious inanity?

S...fast, are you an intellectual supporter of the disinformation implicit in BHObama's carefully nuanced hit job on the U.S. Constitution, “... we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.”

S...fast, are you promoting the “hit job” on the U.S. Constitution that started with BHO's obvious obfuscation about his lineage, heritage and nativity and his obvious self-awareness about his lack of Article II Section 1 Clause 5 eligibility authority because he knows that he is NOT a 'natural born Citizen' because he was NOT born on U.S. soil with TWO (2) U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other before he was conceived or born?

S...fast, are you aware that even if BHObama could have claimed his Hawaii neighbor and communist mentor Frank Marshall Davis as his father, BHO would still NOT be a “natural born Citizen” because Frank and Stanley Ann Dunham, alleged to be BHO's mother, would not have been married to each other.

S...fast, since you like to traffic in inane hypotheticals that you think add credence to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent and one (1) foreign citizen parent can reproduce a citizen who is a 'natural born Citizen,” what would the “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirthers have done if BHO had claimed Davis as his own father and his alleged mothers mate?

S...fast, the Obama Obirthers, aka “shillers,” aka “swindlers” of accuracy and truth, would have shilled for BHO by saying that being “married” was not implied in 1787 America in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, a conclusion which would be as inane as saying that ONLY one (1) U.S. Citizen parent in physical union with a foreign “citizen” is sufficient to physically produce a child who is ALSO a “citizen” who is a Clause 5 “natural born Citizen.”

- - - - - - - - - -

S...fast, you also write something inane to support your understanding that "the Binney quote is devastating to Mario's argument."

S...fast, it is obvious that you did not read what you call my 8 page "opus" very carefully or you would have have been aware that the "Binney quote" was included in Mario's original and first ever post about BHO's lack of Article II authority, and I simply opened the paragraphs for quick reading.

S...fast, maybe you could read again Logotherapy vs. Logorrhea, posted on March 24, 2014 at 6:08 PM, which briefly explains that logotherapy, the study of meaning, is the foundation of healthy thinking, healthy speaking, healthy writing, and logotherapy is the cure for logorrhea.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Ray said...

A.R.Nash

Without a government there can not be citizens.

Without a government there is... - what? Tribes, clans, families. In all but the simplest and smallest societies the familial clan and tribal elder are obsolete governors of society. The multitudes of clans and tribes have long ago combined to form territorial states and established governments each of which have sovereign territorial jurisdiction and each of which issue law determining who shall be admitted into their society.

Each government has a right to sovereign territorial jurisdiction equal to that every other government has over its territory. All persons within that territory, foreigner and citizen alike, are obliged to obey the law. However, only the citizen has political ties, rights and responsibilities, to that country. Citizenship is the political tie between members of a society.

Societies have the right to determine who shall be admitted into their society. Societies establish governments, those governments issue law determining who shall be admitted into their society.

Without a government there can not be citizens, only tribesman with primitive organization and transient location.

ajtelles said...

Part 1

A few nationality related words...

_Hereditament – Hereditary – Heredity – Heritage
_Inhere – Inherent – Inherit – Inheritable – Inheritance
_Lineage
_Nationality – Nativity


- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, here is a dictionary search that I originally did for my own edification, having been inspired by Rob Natelson's book, “The Original Constitution – What it Actually Said and Meant,” and thought that it might also help Obama “Obirthers” and we original birther “birthers,” aka, in 2014 America, we who accept the honorable word “birthers” and as birthers we are trying to protect and defend the original intent of the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers who were the original birthers of 1787 America.

This is only a quick look at a few common nationality related words as understood today in 2014 America using the easily accessible American Heritage Dictionary. And since the 1787 original intent meanings of the words have not changed since the U.S. Constitution, specifically Article II Section 1 Clause 5, was debated, adopted, ratified and implemented by the original birthers, the original intent is inherent in the original words.

In my reading of your posts, Mario, it is THIS original intent Constitution and THIS original intent Article II clause which you have explicated thoroughly since your first prescient post on December 20, 2008 when you published ”The Two Constitutional Obstacles Obama Has To Overcome To Be President.”

For the Obama Obirthers who take the low road and ridicule as sycophantic and toady the giving of public kudos where public kudos are due for being seminal and prescient, only one question is necessary and which they will probably be true to form and ignore again, or maybe mention again Jack Maskell from the Congressional Research Service.

Can the Obama Obirthers name only 1 person, just 1, to whom the Obirthers would give THEIR public kudos to for being “seminal and prescient” in defense of the Obirther supposition and so inherent implication that BHObama was born on U.S. soil and he IS a “natural born Citizen” BECAUSE he ONLY had ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?

- - - - - - - - - -

For us who are not constitutional scholars, this is a quick look at important words associated with the original intent of the original birthers in 1787 America who wrote 'natural born Citizen' with ONLY ONE (1) “original intent” meaning.
To qualify as a 'natural born Citizen', the birth was to be ONLY on U.S. soil with two (2) U.S. citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE their child was born a U.S. Citizen.
In 1787 America, obviously, the child born would ONLY inherit the status of a living human being as the result of the physical union of two persons.
In 1787 America, obviously, the living human being would would ALSO be a U.S. Citizen child who ALSO would ONLY be able to inherit the status of a U.S. “natural born Citizen” as the result of the physical union of two persons married to each other who were BOTH U.S. Citizens BEFORE the child was born.

- - - - - - - - - -

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 2

American Heritage Dictionary

Hereditament
her-e-dit-a-ment … n.


Heritable property.
>> In America, the 'right of property' is heritable and the 'property of rights' is heritable, unless America is “transformed” from a free republic to a collectivist commune.

Hereditary
he-red-i-tar-y … adj.


1. Law a. Descending from an ancestor to a legal heir; passing down by inheritance.
1. Law b. Having title or possession through inheritance.
>> A foreign citizen parent can NOT pass down the status of a U.S. “natural born Citizen” to a child born on U.S. soil or on foreign soil for the same reason that a foreign citizen parent can NOT pass down the status of a U.S. Citizen to a child born on U.S. soil or foreign soil. The foreign citizen parent does not “own” simple U.S. “citizen” status.

2. Transmitted or capable of being transmitted genetically from parent to offspring: a hereditary disease.
3a. Appearing in or typical of successive generations.
3b. Learned from ancestors: a hereditary prejudice.
4. Ancestral; traditional.
5. Of or relating to heredity or inheritance.

_Heritage
her-i-tage … n.


1. Property that is or can be inherited; an inheritance.
>> The “property” in context can also include citizenship status.

2. Something passed down from preceding generations; a tradition.
>> Citizen status can also be “passed down.”

3. The status acquired through birth; a birthright.
>> U.S. “Citizen” OR “natural born Citizen” is a “birthright” status that is NOT “heritable” from a parent who is still a foreign citizen, so the foreign citizen parent can NOT pass on what is NOT “owned” by that foreign citizen parent.

Inhere
in-hir … intr. v.


To be inherent or innate.

Inherent
in-her-ent … ajd.


Existing as an essential constituent or characteristic; intrinsic.

Inherit
in-her-it … v.


1a. To receive (property or a title, for example) from an ancestor by legal succession or will.
1b. To receive by bequest or as a legacy.

2. To receive or take over from a predecessor.

3. Biology.
To receive (a characteristic) from one's parents by genetic transmission.

4. To gain (something) as one's right or portion.
– intr. To hold or take possession of an inheritance.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 3

Inheritable
in-her-it-a-ble … adj.


1. That can be inherited.
2. Having the right to inherit or the capability of inheriting.


Inheritance
in-her-i-tance … n.


1a. The act of inheritance
1b. Something inherited or to be inherited.

2. Something regarded as a heritage.

3. Biology.
3a. The process of genetic transmission of characteristics from parents to offspring.
3b. A characteristic so inherited.
3c. The sum of characteristics genetically transmitted from parents to offspring.
The “parents to offspring” = plural, 2 … = the 2 become 1, the minimum … = the TWO (2) U.S. “citizen” parents reproduce and the physical union of TWO (2) persons produces at least ONE (1) new person who is a living being in the ONE (1) nation of the TWO (2) U.S. “citizen” parents, and the “new person,” being by physical birth ALSO a new “citizen” of the ONE (1) nation of the TWO (2) U.S. “citizen” parents, is ALSO a 'natural born Citizen' of the ONE (1) nation of the TWO (2) U.S. “citizen” parents.

_Lineage
lin-e-age … n.


1a. Direct descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
1b. Derivation.

2. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.

_Nationality
na-tion-al-i-ty … n.


1. The status of belonging to a particular nation by origin, birth, or naturalization.
>> If one of the parents is still a foreign citizen because nationalization by oath has not taken place, citizenship by birth on U.S. soil results in the status of “citizen” by birth for ONLY that one (1) nation, not two or more nations. It is the other nation(s) that gives the status of citizen of that foreign nation to a U.S. “citizen” whose parents are of different nationalities.

>> U.S. citizenship by naturalization by oath on U.S. soil results in the status of “citizen” by oath in and for ONLY the one (1) U.S. nation.

>> Citizenship by birth on U.S. soil with two (2) U.S. Citizen parents results in the status of U.S. “citizen” by birth in and for ONLY that one (1) nation, with the inherent status of “natural born Citizen” by birth in and for ONLY that one (1) nation.

2. A people having common origins or traditions and often constituting a nation.
>> Two people, married or cohabiting, one of whom is a U.S. citizen and the other a foreign citizen, are NOT members of one nation.

3. Existence as a politically autonomous entity; national independence.

4. National character.
>> Two persons with two different nationalities can NOT have ONLY one (1) “national character” that can be “heritable.”

5. Nationalism.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 4

_Nativity
na-tiv-i-ty … n.


1. Birth, esp. the place, conditions, or circumstances of being born.
>> The “place, conditions, or circumstances” of BHObama's birth are still in dispute in 2014.

2. [3 references to the births of Jesus, paintings about his births, and Christmas.]
3. A. horoscope for the time of one's birth.
>> For people who are true believers in astrology and horoscopes and stars, aka suns, millions of miles away from earth supposedly having influence in a persons nativity on earth, there is obvious chaos in the stars which would make a BHO natal chart problematic because the natal charts would be in conflict with each other.

- - - - - - - - - -

The suggested reading assignment for our 'Obirther' friends of Obama, and for our 'birther' friends of original birthers Washington and Jay and Jefferson and et alli, is Rob Natelson's book, “The Original Constitution – What it Actually Said and Meant,” Chapter 2 on page 29, Interpreting The Constitution, specifically page 32, the section titled Finding The “Intent of the Makers” from the Text.

Here are two short sentences from the first paragraph on page 32.

“When reading the text of the Constitution to find the 'intent of the makers,' you must read as a member of the Founding Generation would have done.”

[…]

“You must read words to mean what they meant in the 1780s rather than what they mean today.”


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. quoted:
"I have been arguing for years that the Fourteenth Amendment, with respect to persons born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction, but who do not meet the common law definition of a natural born citizen, does nothing more than naturalize those persons at birth. The Obots say that I am nuts for making such an argument."

I haven't followed your discussions on that. Are you basically alone in it, or can you cite courts and scholars that agree?

As you know, obots can cite courts calling native-born children of aliens "natural born citizens" http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/01/natural-born-citizen-at-law/

Anonymous said...

A.Nash writes:

Ray said: "Citizenship is the political tie between members of a society."

That is not accurate. Citizenship is the membership status recognized by government concerning who is a member of the country and society that government serves.

The ties between members of a society are ethnic, racial, cultural, and ideological, -and often religious. Citizenship is not the tie. One can be a resident in the U.S. longer than any of one's associates and friends have been alive, and wholly Americanized, and yet not a naturalized citizen yet.

"Societies have the right to determine who shall be admitted into their society. Societies establish governments, those governments issue law determining who shall be admitted into their society."

I'm suspecting you aren't grasping the ambiguity of that statement. You left out one very central element: "who [FROM THE OUTSIDE] shall be admitted into their society..."
Governments do not, and can't, decide who from the inside can or will be rejected.
And I don't mean inside the borders. I mean inside of the common bonds of membership, -which are blood bonds of attachment to parents who are members.

Can parents decide which of their natural children they will reject? They don't have any right to do such a thing, and neither do governments.

"Without a government there can not be citizens," Exactly. But there can be members, as in members of the country, region, society, and tribe.
Membership is beyond the necessity of citizenship. It is antecedent to government.
Natural members become the natural citizens of the nation that societies form together.

MichaelN said...

Unknown said ....

"The manual dates from 1998 and notes the lack of definite judicial expression. Today we have more guidance from courts. Your changes would be completely inappropriate, as you would set the State Department against the decisions of every U.S. court that has reached the matters."
...................

You are such a whiner and so full of crap, you are a coward hiding behind your pseudonym, afraid to actually take responsibility for your pathetic nonsense drivel.

For starters, the State Department FAILED to "note definite judicial expression" ... it was actually there, staring them in the face, i.e. "definite judicial expression" appeared in all SCOTUS cases that touched on citizenship, particularly Minor and WKA cases.

The courts which you suggest provide "more guidance" are ALL trumped by the SCOTUS cases, they are unimportant and irrelevant and also wrong to boot.

What matters is what the SCOTUS has opined and held, and that is that a natural born citizen of the US is one who is native-born to US citizen parents, and these MAJORITY OPINIONS OF THE SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES has NEVER CHANGED since.

BOTH the Minor and the WKA courts held that the 14th Amendment (being a part of the US Constitution) does NOT SAY who shall be a NBC... PERIOD!

The MAJORITY opinion & decision in the WKA also case does NOT SAY who shall be a NBC, it says who shall be a born "citizen of the United States" an entity which according to Article I & II is eligible for congress, BUT NOT POTUS.

Even to be a native-born "citizen of the United States" one must also be under some degree of parental allegiance.

A native-born in US, with also some required degree of parental allegiance, is a "citizen of the United States", is NOT ELIGIBLE to be POTUS unless they also possess an EXTRA quality that would make them an Article II "natural born Citizen".

As a prerequisite to be eligible for the office of POTUS, one must first be a born "citizen of the United States" but not a naturalized "citizen of the United States", so we have those who are 14th Amendment born "citizens of the United States", have passed the first step, and because they are "citizens of the United States" they get to be eligible for Congress.

So what makes one 14th Amendment born "citizen of the United States" eligible for POTUS and another born "citizen of the United States" not eligible?

Answer: A higher parental allegiance than that which is required to make a born "citizen of the United States".

You're such a pathetic coward loser "Unknown".

Anonymous said...

A.Nash writes:

Art, here it is in simpler form: A natural born citizen is one born of an American couple.
Nothing else is natural. Any other definition is an adulterated definition with added elements that are not of nature.
You wish to pretend that life-long recognition and legal significance is attached to the human-only factor of border-recognition, (birth-place "worship") but they are irrelevant to nature.

The word "natural" encompasses nothing outside of natural connections, -which are only blood connection.

You should learn that this position is NOT the obot position:

"...inherent implication that BHObama was born on U.S. soil and he IS a “natural born Citizen” BECAUSE he ONLY had ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent".

Their preposterous position is that NO American parents are needed. The German wife of Hitler, if delivered of a son on U.S. soil, he could be President one day. No membership in American society needed. Birth-place alone is sufficient in their demented minds.

Why do you and Mario add to their sense of validity by supporting the fallacy that is their foundation but which in no way is able to de-legitimize Obama without a foreign birth certificate being produced?
The ONLY matter that matters is that no alien father can father an American natural citizen. He can't even father a legal citizen if he is not even an immigrant because the 14th Amendment does not apply to foreign guests who are not subject to the full sovereign authority of the American government.
Result: Obama is not a citizen of the United States unless he was naturalized as an adult. No one can say he wasn't, -what with all records being hidden or altered.

See my debunking of Fuddy's death and autopsy at http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/27/fuddys-convenient-death/#comment-4822
More official BS, with unreleased portions of the autopsy kept from the public. God only know what they reveal.

Anonymous said...

A.Nash writes:

Unknown said to Mario:" Today we have more guidance from courts. Your changes would be completely inappropriate, as you would set the State Department against the decisions of every U.S. court that has reached the matters."

Only an ignoramus would toss in the word "inappropriate". What does that and everything surrounding it have to do with what the truth actually is? Answer: not a damn thing. EVERYONE CAN BE WRONG!

Just as both obots and birthers are both wrong about natural citizenship and native-birth. But at least Mario is half 100% right. Obots are just 100% wrong.

When it came to the Congressional "power" to regulate the citizenship of naturalized foreigners, the entire United States government made like a big fat arrogant ass for four generations until finally put in its place by a Supreme Court opinion that found the government hads no such authority.

Once someone becomes an American, they are in effect a new natural American and cannot be discriminated against for any reason.
That is an American fundamental philosophical position resulting from the doctrine of citizenship equality. ALL CITIZENS ARE EQUAL.

But not all are born being natural citizens even though they are born being citizens.
That hair is split when it comes to the command of the American military. But not for any other office.

People who look to authorities for what the truth is, will surely miss it because they are all possessed of opinions based on legal history and not on the immutable Natural Rights of Man, -including the right to belong to one's own country just as they belong to their own parents. The founders of our nation never ceded that right to government.
Any claim that Americans born abroad are not naturally Americans is an anti-American delusion and treasonous to the natural rights of all Americans.

Anonymous said...

Dr. Kryptonite brings death to all evil obamunist Kryptonians by saying:

Obama is not a U.S. citizen because of the truth about treason.

Immigrants, just like citizens, are required to be loyal to their adopted country. If they are not, they too can be charged with treason even though they are not Americans. It’s all about membership, -in their adopted society.
But, can foreign guests be charged with treason? (like Obama Sr.)
No, not ever, -because they are not members of American society. They are not subject to American jurisdiction as are citizens and immigrants.
For that reason, the 14th Amendment (which requires full subjection) does not apply to any child they deliver on American soil. That is why Barry O. is not a United States citizen from birth by American LAW even though viewed as one by American policy. (He might secretly be a citizen by naturalization though.)

A foreign guest can leave the country and sell banned nuclear materials to Iran and the U.S. government has no say in the matter, but a foreign immigrant could be charged with treason if we were at war with Iran, because he is subject to the full extent of the law. And that is what justifies granting his native-born alien child American citizenship by the 14th Amendment.

It's all about subjection, -who's under it and who is not. Obama Sr. was not; ergo, Obama Jr. was not either since he was water from that same foreign spring.
ARN

Anonymous said...

"Dr. Kryptonite" Nash writes:

Today (yesterday) I was shedding some light at Dr. Conspiracy's blog in numerous postings, and after I noticed and revealed a very significant fact, he proclaimed that he was deleting my comments and banning me "for general purposes".

What he prevented from posting was the fact that the vaunted letters from HDoH Alvin Onaka to three states not only were not valid since they contained no signature, but that the letters long list of confirmed "facts" failed to include the most important one of all: Place of Birth (!!!).

The list jumps from "Time of Birth" to "Name of Hospital" with "Place of Birth" missing from in between them.
That fact could not be allowed to see the light of day at that den of self-deceiving vipers.

Now hopefully everyone else will be made aware of what is missing, and which I had never noticed until it struck me while reviewing the three links to the "unquestionable" "evidence" of "verification by the STATE of HAWAII". Pure bull! Frauds. More proof of the conspiracy.

Can you believe the A.G.s accepting a verification that didn't even mention the place of birth when that was the central issue? Unbelievable. More Alice in Wonderland upside-downness.

ajtelles said...

Part 1

Natural law soil and borders...

OpenID h2ooflife said on March 29, 2014 at 1:01 AM

>> "A.Nash writes:

>> "Art, here it is in simpler form:
>> "A natural born citizen is one born of an American couple.

>> "Nothing else is natural.
>> "Any other definition is an adulterated definition with added elements that are not of nature.

>> "You wish to pretend that life-long recognition and legal significance
>> "is attached to the human-only factor of border-recognition,
>> "(birth-place "worship")
>> "but they are irrelevant to nature."

- - - - - - - - - -

You are getting closer to nature, A.Nash, so let's take a look at what comes naturally to produce a U.S. 'natural born Citizen' of the soil claimed by the two parents who are also U.S. citizens of the U.S. nation.

A.Nash, by asserting that “nothing else is natural,” you limit your vision and understanding that the "place" of touch down, aka the “soil” of birth, of the new born child is as much a part of nature as the air that is required to breath and live on the soil and unite in physical union.

The two persons who unite on soil somewhere, anywhere, to reproduce a new born child, and then 9 months later give physical 'cut- the-umbilical-cord' birth to that same child on the soil of the nation that the two parents claim as THEIR nation, those two persons require that the natural law soil be secure with positive law borders to protect them and their natural law new born child.

A.Nash, here it is in simpler form:

A 'natural born Citizen' is one born of two U.S. citizen parents on the soil that the U.S. citizen parents claim as THEIR national soil.

In context here regarding 'natural born Citizen,' the two parents are two U.S. citizen who are BOTH citizens of this ONE U.S. nation BEFORE the child is born on the soil of this ONE U.S. nation.

THAT is a 1787 and into perpetuity “natural born Citizen” of the United States.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 2

Since the 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” designation for a child born on FOREIGN soil with TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents rectified the error of the 1790 Naturalization Act “natural born Citizen” designation for a child born on FOREIGN soil with TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents, THAT child born ONLY on U.S. soil with TWO (2) two U.S. citizen parents is a 'natural born Citizen.'

The birth of a 'natural born Citizen' must be on the soil claimed by the union of people, aka the nation, which the two U.S. citizen parents of the child claim as THEIR national soil and they claimed it BEFORE their child was born to them on that same soil

Using other words and a way of phrasing that is fresh and innocent and has not yet been tied to arcane (known or understood by only a few) presuppositions about borders and native this and native that or native whatever, here is a brief look at the differences between natural law and positive law, between a law of nature and a law of a legislature.

The “law of nature” physical birth requires that the “law of nature” physical soil exist BEFORE a “law of nature” physical birth can happen on that “law of nature” soil.

A.Nash, it doesn't get any simpler and clearer than that. Does it? Right?

Sometimes, a union of people will by “positive law” claim the “law of nature” soil BEFORE a “law of nature” child is “law of nature” born on the “law of nature” soil of that union of people, aka a “nation,” who “positive law” claim the “natural law” soil.

In simple terms, A.Nash, the union of people claim the soil for the nation BEFORE any child is born on that same soil.

To be a 'natural born Citizen,' the birth of the new born U.S. "citizen" child MUST happen on the soil that is already the soil of the U.S. nation to which the parents belong as its U.S. "citizens" by either (natural law) birth on the (natural law) soil that is already there as a (natural law) act of nature, or by (positive law) naturalization by oath on the (natural law) soil that is already (positive law) claimed by the union of people, aka the U.S. nation, or a combination of the two, (natural law) birth for one parent and (positive law) oath for the other parent.

A. Nash, what is it about natural law, the law of nature, and positive law, the law of legislatures, that needs to be clarified and defined so that the borders are dissolved and dispersed into the natural law / law of nature air?

Nature and law, aka natural law, the foundation of positive law.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Anonymous said...

I started writing about a new perspective this morning, but it grew to three pages. It's titled:

Why No Visa-card Alien’s Child Can Be President -or How Foreign Women Prove Obama Is Not An American Citizen

It's a real eye-opener, revealing the truth that's entirely absent from American consciousness. It begins...

For two centuries American women, like indentured servants, were not citizens of the colonies nor the states nor the nation.

Whenever the subject of citizenship might have been raised in mixed American company, no man would have said so but they all would have thought so.
They would not have said so because they felt the need to be polite, diplomatic, and avoid the ire of women folk whose good graces they desired to be in.

What man who desired his wife's good cooking, obedience, and good sex would have uttered the truth in front of her; "women aren't really citizens at all; they're merely American nationals."?

That's the reality of the situation that couldn't be spoken. It reminds me of something Greg Guttfeld said about marriage. He said that no one has ever written an honest book about what marriage actually turns out to be and is like by comparison to the notions in single people's head before they've ever been married, -and...that no one ever will have the audacity to write one.

So there it is; the citizenship of American women, as well as children, was strictly a pretense of politeness maintain so as to not ruffle their feathers by making them seem unequal to men.

American principles rejected the existence of more than one class of citizens because they rejected one class being superior over others, and the rest being inferior -as was not the case in Europe with its despicable noble and aristocrat classes.
That fundamental American fact tells you that American women were not a lesser class of CITIZEN but were not actually citizens at all.
They were not inferior nor second-class because they were not in the class described by the title: "citizen".
They were in a protected and subservient class apart from citizens, -leaving only the label "American National" to accurately and respectfully describe them.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/29/why-no-visa-card-aliens-child-can-be-president/#comment-4826

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Art, where have you been? Not reading what I've been writing, apparently.
You said:
"The “law of nature” physical birth requires that the “law of nature” physical soil exist BEFORE a “law of nature” physical birth can happen on that “law of nature” soil."

I've repeated illuminated the fact that neither soil, nor gravity, nor the planet Earth are an element of life and the new life that it produces. Nothing is a part of natural life that is not living. Natural Law is about Natural Life, not natural matter.

Soil is not living and has no effect on life. Membership is not an element of matter nor borders but is an element of life.

Membership is either natural or artificial. It is artificial if conveyed by government. It is natural if conveyed by blood inheritance as an immutable, unalienable Right of Man.

Why can't you grasp that the Freeman of a liberated America would never, ever, ever, ever have surrendered their Natural Right of belonging to their families and to their people and to their country and to their nation.

That right was reclaimed from the bastardized British system of national membership, -which based it on subjection to the Crown at birth within sovereign British territory.

Americans threw out both parts of that system. They were Americans by choice, by volition, by allegiance to the revolution and the American principles of liberty and Natural Rights.

They never surrendered to the government they created any right for it to tell them if they were or were not citizens of their own state and nation, -NOR whether or not their children were either.
They were members by blood inheritance. No one could take that away from them, including the inconvenience of foreign borders.

They were Americans by nature, not by laws.

Time to smash your Golden Calf of US Soil and stop worshiping it. Life trumps law. Blood trumps borders. Natural born trumps native-born. Just ask the Kuwaitis circa the Iraqi invasion.
Natural membership trumps legal membership based on soil. It's high, high above it.

When you need government permission to be the father of your own children, then the government's soil will matter. Not until.

ajtelles said...

Part 1

Pick your favorite Obama Obirther U.S. or foreign soil number, 2, 1, 0...

Over at ObamaConspiracy.org, Ken Davidson, one of my favorite Obama Obirthers to read because he is voluble without being garrulous, and he's a kinda nice retired guy in a hat, made a page called “Intro to Birthers.”
>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/features/intro-to-birthers/

It starts with, “On March 1, 2008, a message appeared at the Free Republic forum:”

In the last paragraph he mentions without exposition that being “... born in the US to two US citizen parents” is a “theory” that was “created” by Leo Donofrio.

So, I analyzed Ken's comment and discovered, well, I really first discovered it by reading Mario who wrote about it December 20, 2008, and then later reading Leo Donofrio and others, that God, whom George Washington called “Sovereign,” blessed America in 1790, yes he DID, when wise and honorable original birthers of the first Congress made an unconstitutional error with the 1790 Naturalization Act.

I also discovered that George Washington's “Sovereign” God blessed America again in 1795, yes, he did it AGAIN, when the wise and honorable original birthers of the second Congress corrected their error with the 1795 Naturalization Act and repealed the 1790 Naturalization Act, specifically the three word unit “natural born Citizen,' and replaced the Article II Section 1 Clause 5 words with the single word “citizen,” since they were already a union of people with a constitution and NOT a monarchy with a monarch who called them “subjects” under authority to the monarchy.

Ken's entire last paragraph -

“The second prong of objection to Obama’s legitimacy is based on the fact that his father, Barack Obama Sr., was not a US Citizen. The theory, created by New Jersey attorney Leo C. Donofrio, says that the phrase “natural born citizen” in the Article II constitutional requirements for the President, means someone who was born in the US to two US citizen parents. Those who hold this legal theory largely base it on an 18th century legal treatise titled in English, The Law of Nations, by a Swiss jurist named Emerich de Vattel. While all the courts that have looked at this question deny any parental requirement for US Presidents, Donofrio’s theory is widely held by birthers to this day.”

Next is my very brief, because that is all that is needed, analysis and exposition of the last sentence, “... all the courts that have looked at this question deny any parental requirement for US Presidents, …” which reveals that the courts have obviously NOT looked at the “theory” of being “... born in the US to two US citizen parents” closely.

It is not necessary to take more than a very brief look at Ken Davidson's implicit presupposition that being “born in the US” to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent is the TRUE truth, the true “theory,” and it must be true BECAUSE only ONE U.S. citizen parent is ALL that BHObama had to offer to the American electorate in 2008 and 2012.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 2

SIDE BAR:
The Republican equivalent of an “Obama Obirther” is a “Cruz Cbirther” because, although Sen. Cruz is my favorite common sense conservative Constitutional scholar and my favorite Senator from my state of Texas, Sen. Cruz is also not a “natural born Citizen” as revealed next in “theory” scenario 2b.

- - - - - - - - - -

1a - Born in the US to two US citizen parents is a theory.
1b - Born in the US to one US citizen parents is a theory.
1c - Born in the US to zero US citizen parents is a theory.

2a - Born in a foreign country to two US citizen parents is a theory.
2b - Born in a foreign country to one US citizen parents is a theory.
2c - Born in a foreign country to zero US citizen parents is a theory.

To say that being born on US soil to two US citizen parents is a theory is tacit implication that all the other possible scenarios are theories also.

1b - Born on US soil to one US citizen parent is a theory.
1c - Born on US soil to zero US citizen parents is a theory.
2a, 2b, 2c - Born in a foreign country to 2, 1, 0 US citizen parents are three more theories.

Excellent.

Which “theory” is supported by the 1787 original intent of the 1787–1789 Founders, Framers, Ratifiers and Implementers, aka the original birthers who wrote Article II Section 1 Clause 5 and inserted it into the U.S. Constitution?

Which “theory” does NOT support the Obama Obirthers assertion that ONLY one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient and necessary to be eligible to be President?

_The 1790 Naturalization Act originally said that “theory” 2a WAS the correct “theory.”

_The 1795 Naturalization Act corrected the 1790 Naturalization Act and said that “theory” 2a was NOT the correct “theory.”

_The 1795 Naturalization Act and ALL subsequent naturalization Acts of Congress said that 1b and 1c are also NOT the correct “theories.”

_The 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act said that “theory” 2a, 2b, and 2c were NOT the correct “theories.”

_The SCOTUS has NEVER opined that “theory” 1b, 1c, 2a, 2b, 2c, are the correct “theories.”

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 3

That leaves only “theory” 1a to consider.

It looks like God blessed America in 1790 when the first Congress made a good-faith naturalization error and passed the 1790 Naturalization Act with the “natural born citizen” designation for a child born on FOREIGN soil to TWO (2) already U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE the child was born on foreign soil.

The error was corrected, repealed, and replaced with the 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” designation for a child born on FOREIGN soil to TWO (2) already U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE the child was born on foreign soil.

The error of the first Congress was in not realizing that the 1790 Naturalization Act or any Act of Congress, and for the 2008-2014 Obirthers, even a SCOTUS opinion, could NOT change the 1787 original intent of a constitutional article, specifically Article II Section 1 Clause 5, and the original intent meaning of “natural born Citizen” as implicitly referring ONLY to a child born on U.S. soil to TWO (2) U.S already U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE the child was born ONLY on U.S. soil.

Article II was implicit about the number of U.S. citizen parents required to give the status of “natural born Citizen” to a child born on U.S. soil. The implicit number was clarified by both the 1790 and the 1795 Naturalization Acts. BOTH Naturalization Acts were explicit about the number of U.S. citizen parents that were required in 1790 to give the status of 'natural born Citizen' to a child, and then corrected in 1795 to give the status ONLY of “citizen” to a child.

TWO U.S. citizen parents was the explicit and obvious original intent of both the 1790 and 1795 Naturalization Acts.

Thus, the correction by the God blessed second Congress when they replaced the 1790 Naturalization Act three word unit “natural born Citizen” with the 1795 Naturalization Act single word “citizen” clarifies that the implicit original intent of the 1787 three word unit “natural born Citizen” meant ONLY being born on U.S. soil with TWO U.S. citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE their child was born to them ONLY on U.S. soil.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes;

quoting Art: "A 'natural born Citizen' is one born of two U.S. citizen parents on the soil that the U.S. citizen parents claim as THEIR national soil."

Art; nbc is in and of the same family of phrases as "my natural born child".
What part of that phrase involves borders?
What part of the natural process of life is dependent on borders?
By what law are you NOT your children's father because of birthplace?
By what law ARE you your children's father?
None, -for both questions.
The matter is outside of the realm of government law. (So is natural citizenship.)
Why? Because you have a natural right to be their father since you are their source and mold.
You do not give up that right merely by crossing borders.
And neither does you unborn child. He or she is born with the right to belong to you and to yours, including your whole greater family and whole greater society. That belonging, that membership at the national level is known as citizenship.

You need to stop thinking of the supremacy of natural law as removing something precious. It removes nothing of value, but guarantees something of immense value, and that is the absolute right of all Americans to have none of their children disenfranchised of their natural right to be equal to all of their siblings and peers and equality eligible to seek the presidency one day.

If you cross over to the Canadian side of Niagara Falls while your wife is just a couple weeks away from delivery, you do not have to worry that the son or daughter for whom you have great hopes, will be forbidden to ever be allowed to rise above Congressmen or Judge.
You are FREE! because of American values of equality and natural membership.
By what logic could one label that phrase as "a term of legal artifice"?

Anonymous said...

A Nash continues:

repeating what Art said: A 'natural born Citizen' is one born of two U.S. citizen parents on the soil that the U.S. citizen parents claim as THEIR national soil."

That view embraces a factor that has no place in natural citizenship, and that is a love of country. It does not matter if you love your country or loath it. It does not matter if you are born on its soil or born in exile, as were babies born to Kuwaitis in exile. You are a member regardless of any factor if you were born of members.

No generation since the founders had an option to claim the soil of their birth as their own. Only the political upheaval of the revolution made that possible and necessary. They were forced to chose.

No one born of them was forced to chose because they were automatically Americans by inheritance of the national membership that their parents conveyed to them.

The loyalist never accepted their natural right and obligation to chose to be free and so they remained subject to the imperial rule which included no such natural right. They were serfs of the king merely by birth within his domain, even if born of aliens.

That was imperial ownership of one's children. Americans rejected that and embraced parental ownership of their children. That was not a right granted by government but by the immutable law of nature.

The full picture is explained in the exposition I wrote this morning: "Why No Visa-card Alien’s Child Can Be President,...
or How Foreign Women Prove Obama Is Not An American Citizen"

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/29/why-no-visa-card-aliens-child-can-be-president/

I beg you to read it and expand your viewpoint to include all of the facts about citizenship that currently you are not aware of.

Anonymous said...

A.Nash writes;

Four possibilities of native citizenship:

1. You are an American if born in America.
[either Legal citizenship or natural citizenship, depending on parentage]

2. You are an American if born in America to American parents. [natural citizenship]

3. You are an American if born in American OR are born of American parents. [a hybrid unnatural doctrine involving no principle of citizenship]

4. You are an American if born of Americans. [Natural Law citizenship producing natural born Americans]

Only #4 is a principle and is natural. Only it follows the principle of natural membership. Only it results in unadulterated natural citizens by natural principle. The others are not principles but arbitrary creations of the human mind.

Maskell's folly does not abide by any principle since it embraces both natural law and human contrivance (man-made membership by man-made borders.

The native-birth dogma embraces no principle either for the second reason.

The combo native-born + natural doctrine is at least half right but is also half wrong because it marries the natural with the unnatural and it rejects the right of citizenship by parentage.

That is the same thing that the apostate British did to pure unadulterated natural law in order to magnify the sovereignty of the crown over all souls born within the realm.
By it, actual natural born subjects gave way to alien-born subjects who were also labeled the same as natural born subjects, and then even called natural born subjects outright, without the qualifier of "equal to" or "the same as" even though they were not because they were not born of Englishmen but foreigners.
The founders did not adopt that bastardization of language, and yet birthers and obots are still embracing it today. It's a damn shame.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of III

I maintain that only a child born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth is a natural born citizen.
Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife maintains that place of birth is not relevant for making one a natural born citizen. Mr. Nash believes that a person who is born out of the U.S. to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, regardless of the circumstances as to why they were out of the United States, is also included as a natural born citizen. Mr. Nash’s theory of what is a natural born citizen fails, among other reasons that I have already provided here, for at least four other reasons.

First, Mr. Nash’s theory of what is a natural born citizen destroys the whole purpose of why the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers would have required future Presidents and Commanders to be natural born citizens. What he maintains cannot be correct given the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ purpose for requiring future Presidents and Commanders to be natural born citizens. We know that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers required only the President and Commander to be a natural born citizen. Those singular civil and military offices were the most sensitive, vulnerable, powerful and therefore dangerous of all the constitutional offices that they created. Hence, they expected the greatest allegiance, faith, and loyalty to the nation from any person who was to occupy and wield the great and singular civil and military power of those offices. Given what they expected of the persons who were to occupy those offices and that they required those persons to be natural born citizens, we can only conclude that in their mind a natural born citizen was born with the greatest degree of allegiance, faith, and loyalty to the United States.

The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers knew that if a child was born out of the United States, that child at the moment of birth also owed allegiance, faith, and loyalty to the nation on whose soil he or she was born. This result occurred because of the jus soli (right of the soil) means of acquiring allegiance and citizenship. Hence, such a child did not owe sole and absolute allegiance, faith, and loyalty to the United States. If it would have been acceptable to the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers for presidential purposes that a child born out of the United States had dual and conflicting allegiances, then it would not have mattered for that same purpose that a child born in the United States also had such dual and conflicting allegiances. As we can see, the foreign-born exception which Mr. Nash advocates would result in the exception swallowing the rule. Such a result is contradictory to the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ requirement that the President and Commander have sole and absolute allegiance, faith, and loyalty to the United States. Hence, Mr. Nash’s theory fails.

Second, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers would also have understood that the obligation of a natural born citizen’s allegiance to the nation only came about from the benefit of protection that the nation gave to a natural born citizen. And the nation’s obligation of protection to the natural born citizen arose only from the benefit of allegiance (political, social, and military support for the nation) that the natural born citizen gave to the nation. In other words, the two, allegiance and protection, were a quid pro quo for each other. Because a natural born citizen owed allegiance only to the United States, the nation owed him undivided and unqualified protection. No matter in what situation a natural born citizen may have found himself or herself, the United States could not expect another nation to come to the aid of a natural born citizen, for the natural born citizen did not owe allegiance to any other nation. Rather, the United States had an absolute duty to protect a natural born citizen because of the absolute allegiance that he or she owed to the United States.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

If a natural born citizen could come into being by being born in a foreign nation, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers would have known that he or she would also have owed allegiance to that foreign nation. Since that person would have owed allegiance also to a foreign power, the United States would not have been absolutely bound to provide that natural born citizen with protection, for the nation on whose soil he or she was born would also have had to provide that protection and claim that person’s allegiance for having provided that protection. So since the United States would not have owed an absolute degree of protection to that citizen, neither would that citizen have owed the United States an absolute allegiance. And there is Mr. Nash’s problem. The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers would not and did not envision future Presidents and Commanders in Chief as having any valid reason for not giving sole and absolute allegiance to the United States. Hence, Mr. Nash’s theory of what is a natural born citizen again fails.

Third, we have seen that the concept of being born in a place is intimately tied to the protection that one gets from the moment of birth. We have also seen that for that protection, one owes allegiance to the nation providing the protection. But there cannot be any protection without a place in which one receives that protection and in which that nation and government exist so as to be able to give that protection. The social order that contains the means of protection is located on a physical place. That physical place where one first received protection is the place of birth. Protection continues in the place of birth for all those who do not leave that place for a foreign place.

Protection starts with a child’s mother and father before he or she is born. The place of birth gave and continues to give protection to the mother and father who produced the new-born child on the place of birth. Protection then is given to the parents’ new-born ochild. The place of birth gives protection to the baby the moment it is born. Protection must then be continued to be given not only to the new-born baby, but also to the same mother and father so that they can nurture and rear the child and make sure the child is educated until he or she is old enough to fend for himself or herself. So again, Mr. Nash’s theory must fail, for it denies the relevancy of the place of birth and the protection that it provides to both the parents and their child.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

Fourth, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wanted a natural born citizen as President and Commander in Chief because that class of citizen was more likely than another to be reared and educated with American social, cultural, and political values. They knew that the place of birth provided the environment, values, and education for the child, during his or her years of minority and for the adult, during his or her years of majority. They knew that the child would learn to speak the language and adopt the culture of the place of birth. The also knew that eventually, the place of birth would also provide employment, cultural, and recreational activities for the adult. They also knew that the mother and father could guide the child on these matters through his or her minority years. But the mother and father could not guide their child through those life experiences without the place of birth producing the physical and moral objects that formed the foundation and reason for those experiences. The Framers provided for a minimum age of 35 years of age (life expectancy was not that high in 1787; for example, a 20-year old in 1850 could expect to live to 60.1 http://gcanyon.wordpress.com/2009/06/25/life-expectancy-in-the-1800s-not-as-bad-as-reported/ ) and a minimum residency within the United States of 14 years. That meant that they expected a natural born citizen to confirm his or her birth inheritance upon reaching the age of 21 years and continue to reside meaningfully in the United States for the next 14 years during years of majority. Those years would have taken him or her to the age of 35 years, which was the minimum age they set for one to be President and Commander. None of that would likely have been possible if the child was not born in the United States. So again, Mr. Nash’s theory fails.

Despite all the historical and legal evidence, reason, and logic that is stacked against him, Mr. Nash insists that his theory is correct. Apart from the bits and pieces of the good stuff that he appropriates from others, he incessantly writes the same thing over and over again, without providing any support for what he writes other than his fantasy-based personal opinion. If you have read one of Mr. Nash’s articles or comments here, you have read them all. So, seeing how wrong he is in one of his articles or comments will tell you how wrong he is in all of them.

ajtelles said...

Natural Law v. Natural Life...

OpenID h2ooflife on March 29, 2014 at 8:57 PM said

[...]

>> "... the fact that neither soil, nor gravity, nor the planet Earth are an element of life ...."

>> "… nothing is a part of natural life that is not living."

Adrian, the point is “natural law,” NOT “natural life” as you wrote.

The point is the 1787 understanding of the founders and how they understood the distinction between positive law and natural law, also called the law of nature.

Your arbitrary inclusion of "life" misses the point of how the founders understood the terms "natural law" and "law of nature" and "positive law."

The founders would not care about what you were talking about with “natural life,” because you do not know and or do not care what they were talking about with “natural born Citizen.”

Oh well, again, as I posted on March 29, 2014 at 3:32 PM -

>> "The “law of nature” physical birth
>> "requires that the “law of nature” physical soil exist
>> BEFORE a “law of nature” physical birth
>> "can happen on that “law of nature” soil."

A.Nash, it still doesn't get any simpler and clearer than that. Right?

>> "A.Nash, here it is in simpler form:

>> "A 'natural born Citizen' is one born of two U.S. citizen parents on the soil that the U.S. citizen parents claim as THEIR national soil."

The point Adrian, is what the parents claim as THEIR national soil, not what YOU claim SHOULD be THEIR understanding about your view about life, nature, borders, and that not even Earth is

>> "... an element of life and the new life that it produces.
>> "Nothing is a part of natural life that is not living.
>> "Natural Law is about Natural Life, not natural matter.”

You are confused and thus confusing, Adrian.

Natural law is about nature, the law that is nature itself, animate AND inanimate, life AND stuff, the law that can NOT be legislated out of existence by positive law, declarations of law to force compliance with the governing society.

For example, ONLY male and female union can reproduce after their kind.

Period.

THAT is a law of nature, life and stuff, animate and inanimate, that can NOT be legislated out of existence.

Common sense and socially productive positive law is about declarations about how to use natural law to form a safe and peaceful society.

For some odd reason, Adrian, you remain so self centered that you refuse to join the important conversation about the original intent of the original birthers, including John Jay who underlined "born" for an obvious reason to HIM, and it does NOT matter what you think Jay SHOULD have meant.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Mario is quite adept at dismissing the writing of others as incorrect, but in my case, he never takes any on my statements and shows how they are logically or factually incorrect.
Instead he just declares them to be wrong and that is that. Then he promulgates his amalgamated theory of citizenship in place of dissecting what I've written.

I can't blame him because there is no good way to refute what logic dictates is irrefutable.

He has no problem declaring "my theory" to be illogical, but he means illogical by the logic of his false assumptions, especially in particular:

"The Founders...knew that if a child was born out of the United States, that child...also owed allegiance, faith, and loyalty to the nation on whose soil he or she was born."

Everyone with a brain agrees that in a thousand years Mario could not possibly explain what the hell that means in the real world.

That is because it has no meaning in the real world, and as you know, the founders were definitely men living in the real world and not in Mario's fantasy philosophical ivory-tower world of ~AMERICAN LAW AND ALLEGIANCE~.

Please, somebody, ask Mario to explain how a baby "owes" a government anything. How????

I have to strongly suspect that Mario, like me, never had any children, nor many nieces & nephews. If he did, his mind would not think the way it does.

Babies owe no one anything. That is reality. Anything else is pure fantasy.

I can't even read his posts past that point because when you get the foundation premise totally wrong, what follows is bound to contain a gross distortion of reality.

And what is with this asinine manner of addressing me: Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife

Is that supposed to be a denigration of some weird sort?
Should I address you by your blogger website name?

Anonymous said...

AR.Nash asks:

Art, why did you construct the list of citizenship possibilities and leave out the only one that is actually natural?

You presented versions of those born in the U.S. and those born outside the U.S. but avoided mention of those who are citizens without regard to place of birth.

Why??? Do you just dogmatically insist such a possibility does not exist? No nation or people or tribe or clan or family has ever based their membership solely on blood? That is madness. It is the foundation of all of those groups and has been since man walked the earth.

Membership by natural connection is the only natural membership. Anything added is unnatural.

No one is a natural citizen by requirements that go beyond the natural requirement of nature because a natural relationship by blood is sufficient for natural membership.

As soon as you add anything to nature, what you get can no longer be called natural. Just because you want to call it natural does not make it so. That is why both the deluded obots and the deluded birthers have their perspectives skewed.
Neither side can dent the Custer Jr. analogy which demolishes the basis of their native-birth doctrines.

Please explain how George Custer Jr. can be considered a member of the Sioux nation and eligible to be chief just because his mother gave birth to him within sovereign Sioux territory. What does his birth location have to do with what people or nation he belongs to?

Does he "owe" allegiance, and faith and loyalty to the Sioux people and not his own alone?

Now you can substitute John Quincy Adams in his place, hypothetically born in London while his father was U.S. Ambassador. His ancestors were members of the original Pilgrims. His father would be President in a decade. He would also one day, but illegitimately by the native-birth doctrine. How asinine is that???

If you cannot explain the relevance of his birth location, you really need to rethink your whole basic approach to citizenship.
I'm done leading you to water and trying to make you think.

ajtelles said...

Original Intent Reality v. Inane and Arcane, uh, Stuff...

Adrian, on March 30, 2014 at 3:57 AM, you said something inane and arcane... again.

>> "Art, why did you construct the list of citizenship possibilities and leave out the only one that is actually natural?

>> "You presented versions of those born in the U.S. and those born outside the U.S.

>> "but avoided mention of those who are citizens without regard to place of birth."

Huh?

Those "... citizens without regard to place of birth."

Then why are there international borders if something as simple as place of residence is important?

BEFORE there can be a place of residence somewhere, anywhere, there has to be a place of birth, somewhere, anywhere.

Adrian, deal with it.

What you are focusing on is irrelevant to what the first and second Congresses did in the Naturalization Acts of 1790 and 1795.

- - - - - - - - - -

This is from my post on March 29, 2014 at 9:50 PM -

>> "That leaves only “theory” 1a to consider.

>> "It looks like God blessed America in 1790 when the first Congress made a good-faith naturalization error and passed the 1790 Naturalization Act with the “natural born citizen” designation for a child born on FOREIGN soil to TWO (2) already U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE the child was born on foreign soil.

>> "The error was corrected, repealed, and replaced with the 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” designation for a child born on FOREIGN soil to TWO (2) already U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE the child was born on foreign soil.

>> "The error of the first Congress was in not realizing that the 1790 Naturalization Act or any Act of Congress, and for the 2008-2014 Obirthers, even a SCOTUS opinion, could NOT change the 1787 original intent of a constitutional article, specifically Article II Section 1 Clause 5, and the original intent meaning of “natural born Citizen” as implicitly referring ONLY to a child born on U.S. soil to TWO (2) U.S already U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE the child was born ONLY on U.S. soil."

- - - - - - - - - -

Adrian, deal with it.

You are not coherent.

The point of the post was the original intent of the original birthers and the mistake some of them made in 1790, but which was corrected in 1795.

THAT is the conversation. NOT citizenship without borders.

Try writing to the spirits of the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers and Implementers of 1787 and see what the response will be.

John Jay is starting to roll in his grave as I type, 'cause he's just waitin' to tell you to go fly a kite in a lightning and thunder storm and get in touch with original intent reality.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Robert said...

AJ
I appreciate much of what you write. Please also consider that our founders would have considered Mr. Obama completely as a foreigner as it was his father who gave him his nationality. At that time the wife surrendered her US citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner and assumed his citizenship.

So, as understood at the time, Mr. Obama was born to two foreign parents in an unestablished location. There is no way that they would have considered him to be anything other than a Britsh/Kenyan subject (Yes, I know Kenya wasn't established, yet. But, that really isn't relevant to the understanding held by our founders in this matter.) except in the case that, not having an established place of birth, he may have been considered as totally stateless (much like a gypsy) and would have absolutely no rights or privileges of citizenship - especially if his place of birth remained a mystery as he attained adulthood.

Anonymous said...

Not long after the discovery of Hawaii, the islands were united into a single Kingdom. Aside from transient whalers, the population was totally homogenous, descendents of peoples that had arrive 1,500 and 500 years prior.

All the people of Hawaii were natural members of the the Hawaiian community. After unification they were all natural citizens of the new nation. They all had the same background. None of them were outsiders nor born of outsiders. They were all Hawaiians and nothing else. That's what natural citizens are.
Yet the Apuzzian doctrine asserts that natural citizens by birth do not exist because if they do then they are competing with "natural born citizens" (quotation marks mandatory in the Apuzzian doctrine because the words cannot be considered to mean what they say and no more.
In fact they MUST mean more. They must mean that the native-birth factor is super-imposed on top of the natural factor of natural membership via blood descent.

By that doctrine, if a Hawaiian woman gave birth out at sea, her child would be a foreigner, an alien, and not Hawaiian since it wasn't Hawaii-born, even though it was Hawaiian-born and not alien-born.
Thus you have a paradox. The child is a natural Hawaiian citizen by birth and yet is not a natural born citizen of Hawaii if you add the quotation marks to those 3 words since that would make them a term of legal artifice which includes the required factor of birth on Hawaiian soil.

So you have to ask yourself which one represents reality; -a natural American citizen by birth or a "natural born citizen" of America?

Term of art? -or no term of art? That is precisely what it all boils down to. But the claim by both sides that the words mean something other than what they say cannot be proven by either side.

All we get is distorted interpretations of very simple things. "Natural means native!" "No, Natural means natural PLUS native!"
You're wrong!
No, you're wrong!
No, you are both wrong because you both live in Flatland and only see two dimensions. Well why not look up?!!! There is another dimension! And it is one in which there is no term of art. There are only natural citizens by birth, or Born Natural Citizens and citizens by legal permission, -including from birth. A. Nash

Anonymous said...

Art wrote:

"...the original birthers and the mistake some of them made in 1790, but which was corrected in 1795."

Your claim is a fantasy, even delusional. The founders, of all the Congresses that have ever convened, were far and away the most attentive to not violate the Constitution and Bill of Rights that they had help to write, -to not go beyond it in any way, shape, or form. TO MAKE NO "MISTAKES" WHATSOEVER!

And they did make no mistake. The mistake is in your unAmerican doctrine borrowed from the British dictator. "All souls born on my land belong to me, even if they are alien souls and not natural Englishmen. Natural Law is abolished."

Here's a thought. The Nat. Act of 1790 probably passed unanimously.

You dare to pontificate that "some of them" made a "mistake", when it is YOU who is making a gigantic mistake.
Presidential eligibility language was employed precisely to overcome the mistaken dogma that grips your unenlightened mind. When will you finally get it? It is all about NATURAL RIGHTS!

Every American man had, and kept, his natural right to pass his national membership on to his progeny.
HE DID NOT SURRENDER HIS RIGHT AT THE WATER'S EDGE!

Government is subservient to his natural rights. Were that not true, we would not have the BILL Of RIGHTS, nor the 9th and 10th Amendments.

"The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall NOT be (mis)construed (by you) to deny or disparage others RETAINED by the People."

One of us is completely wrong and the other completely right, and it's determined by RIGHTS, -not dogma.

Peace. A.R. Nash

Anonymous said...

Art wrote:

"John Jay is starting to roll in his grave as I type, 'cause he's just waitin' to tell you to go fly a kite in a lightning and thunder storm and get in touch with original intent reality."

What you are saying is that the simple three word combination means something other than what the words convey. You are saying that they are, as the obots insist, "a term of art".
Great, now you are both on the same page. Congratulations! You've managed to reinforce their dogma. And that helps your cause how????

If you were to assert that those words do not constitute a term of art, then you invalidate their entire fallacious structure, -with the word natural meaning nothing other than natural, -booting out the assertion that it also means native-born.
Without that logical and linguistic and legal distortion, their lie vanishes like smoke.

Why don't you do that? Why don't you ask them, as I'm asking you, to PROVE that a natural born citizen is truly not that but is instead a "naturalborncitizen" as interpreted via a nativist dogma?

No one can proven the foundational premise of your nativist religion. So why hang on to it? Why proclaim it as if it were Holy Writ?
IT IS UNPROVEN AND UNPROVABLE. All falsehoods are.
A.Nash

Anonymous said...

Art redefined and mis-defined Natural Law. The Law of Nature is the Law of Nature's GOD.

He made the universe for mankind, and then made mankind in his own image, -having certain unalienable rights, among which are the right of free will and natural belonging.

All rights and all relationships of belonging exist as elements of natural life. They involve only sentient beings, -not inanimate matter!

A multi-billionaire could create his own new nation in international waters, building on massive floating platforms. What role does soil play in his nation and its membership when there is none?

He might make a law that all who help to build his city-state will be the first generation of members, and all of their children will inherit their parents' membership. And none who did not help to build it will be considered natural members but only members by investment with Paid Membership which can be revoked for bad behavior.
That is akin to the foundation of the American nation. Soil was irrelevant, but the free-will stand of the parents was determinative for their off-spring.

In the future of The Terminator, the population is replaced by robots and cyborgs. They also have relationships to each other. They also are created on American soil. And yet they possess no natural life.

That is why the Laws of Nature do not apply to them because those laws are the laws of the Creator which govern the relationships of humans to each other, -not to inanimate matter.

In the distant future, Americans will be born in outer-space. Their nationality will be American by blood connection. They will still be Earthlings, although not born on Earth. Same with citizenship and foreign birth. It is not by legal permission but by NATURAL CONNECTION.
A. Nash

Anonymous said...

Robert wrote: "At that time the wife surrendered her US citizenship upon marriage to a foreigner and assumed his citizenship"

You are unaware that that was repealed with the Cable Act of 1922. From 1907 until then it was true. It hasn't been since. I've discussed that in over a dozen expositions at obama--natin.com
A. Nash

Ray said...

So h2ooflife (March 30, 2014 at 3:22 PM),

Robert said "as understood at the time" meaning the Framing, are you positing that the Cable Act modified the Article II meaning of "natural born citizen"?

ajtelles said...

Getting closer...

A. Nash, on March 30, 2014 at 3:14 PM, you said -


>> "h2ooflife said...

>> "Art redefined and mis-defined Natural Law.
>> "The Law of Nature is the Law of Nature's GOD."

- - - - - - - - - -

Adrian, in the first part, you are out of focus.

In the second part, by bringing nature's God into the conversation, you automatically get closer to nature and the heart of the "natural born Citizen" original intent of the original birthers.

The positive law declaration of "natural born Citizen" is founded in the natural law "natural born" words and the "positive law" single word "Citizen" as understood by the original birthers.

Adrian, it is easy to be coherent when God is part of the conversation.

Whether it is a theist or an atheist who adduces "natural law" to posit an idea, in the theists big "g" God of the "natural law of God" and in the atheists small "g" god of the "natural law of nature," natural law adds clarity to the positive law of the legislatures which is based on natural law.

Adrian, stay close to original intent reality and your stream-of-consciousness original ideas, although they are arcane ideas, will become more coherent.

I'm sure you are a nice guy and you mean well in your tutorials to Mario and others, but, sheese, man, sometimes you get way out there... somewhere.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

I of II

You continue to demonstrate your ignorance as to what a natural born citizen is. As I have told you many times over, the natural born citizen clause is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause which can be understood only through the definition of the whole clause and not its individual parts.

According to natural law and the law of nations, which in matters of citizenship was adopted as part of American common law, a child upon birth follows the condition of his or her parents. The ancient maxim that describes this rule of nature is partus sequitur patrem (children follow the condition of their parents). For your information, the condition of the parents is a product of both who the parents are and where they are located at the moment of birth. It is these rules of nature which when followed produces the life cycle which gives the society of which the parents are members the best chance of preserving itself through the parents and their future adult children. Relying upon this reality, the law of nations/American common law gave us the definition of a natural born citizen which is a child born in a county to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This means that any person who is either not born in the country or not born to citizen parents or both, may be a citizen under some positive or municipal law, but is not and cannot be a natural born citizen.

I said that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wanted future Presidents and Commanders to have sole and absolute allegiance, faith, and loyalty only to the United States from the moment of birth. In order to defend your position that place of birth is not relevant to the definition of a natural born citizen, you reply, without reconciling your objection with your own theory of what a natural born citizen is, that it is absurd to think that babies have allegiance to anything. If babies do not have, as you advocate, any persona which enables them to have allegiance, loyalty, and faith to the nation in whose membership they are born, why did the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers even include the natural born citizen clause in the Constitution? Do you not understand that a new-born baby’s “natural born citizen” status starts at the moment of birth through the person of the father and mother? If not, then what does “born” mean and why even use the term for presidential and commander eligibilty? Do you not understand that John Jay’s underlying the word “born,” when he wrote “natural born citizen” in his famous letter of July 25, 1787 to then-General George Washington, meant that a person had to be simply born a “natural born citizen” and not made one by operation of law and/or judicial process? Under your asinine and silly theory of natural membership, natural born citizens just spring up out of thin air at some undefined moment in time. I hate to inform you that John Jay and George Washington never got your memo.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Maybe this will help you understand how important place of birth is. In his Institutes of the Laws of England, Lord Edward Coke argued that the protections and rights provided by Magna Carta applied not just to nobles, but to all British subjects. He then expanded upon his grant of protections and rights when he wrote the Virginia Charter of 1606for King James I. There, he enabled the King to give children born in the colonies all rights and liberties as if they had been born in England. Did you see that, “as if they had been born in England?” Do you think that being born in England was not a big deal? Why was it necessary to publish a document that said that children who were not born in England would have the same rights as if born in England? Is it not self-evident that those children not born in England were not the same as children born in England and that they needed a legal proclamation to give them the same rights and protections as children born in England? Mr. Nash, does that not sound a lot like Congress’s naturalization acts (1790, 1795, 1802, 1855 and all that followed) in which it gave rights and protections to the degree that it could under the Constitution to children born out of the U.S. as though they were born in the U.S. (remember that pesky “shall be considered as”)?

Should you still not understand what the impact that the place of birth has on a new-born child, imagine a pregnant mother just having given birth to her new-born child on the sinking Titanic. Does this example not demonstrate to you that nature cannot produce any living thing without a place of birth and that that living thing which is born in that place cannot preserve and reproduce itself unless nature best preserves it while it continues to live in its most advantageous environment long enough to reproduce itself? Need I say more for you to comprehend the critical importance of the place of birth?

Your Adams hypothetical is as silly as everything that you write. John Quincy Adams was born in 1767 in the colony of Massachusetts. Through the Declaration of Independence and his parents adhering to the American Revolution, he became a citizen of the free and independent state of Massachusetts on July 4, 1776. He became a citizen of the U.S. on June 21, 1788, when the required ninth state (New Hampshire) ratified the Constitution, retroactive to July 4, 1776. If John Quincy had been hypothetically born out of the U.S. to a mother who had joined her husband who was an American ambassador, he would have been reputed born in the United States. In any event, it does not matter where John Quincy was born, for regardless of the place of his birth, he was a citizen and grandfathered to be eligible to be President by Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 (“. . . or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution”).

Your Hawaii example is as silly as all of what you write. If a Hawaiian couple gave birth to that child in the English King’s dominions and under his allegiance and protection, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, unlike you, would have known that that child was born a “natural-born subject” of England. Contrary to your theories of what a natural born citizen ought to be, a child is not and cannot be the natural born citizen of two counties.

Your floating new nation in international waters example is even more silly. If borders did not mean anything, why would your billionaire care to break away from his own nation and spend so much of his money to create a new one?

Mr. Nash, since you are such an earth treasures talker, you might enjoy this. I do not think you will find any free American bald eagles, whose intent it is to preserve and reproduce themselves as such, mating with vultures and/or laying their eggs in Europe.

P.S. The reason that I call you Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife is that you are fond of stealing as one and laundering as yours through another.

Robert said...

h20
I certainly understand and am aware of the Cable Act. However, this discussion is based upon what the founders believed at the time the Constitution was written and adopted.

As you have pointed out, the Cable Act was not in force at that time.

The clear understanding of the founders was that a natural born citizen is one born in the country to two citizen parents. It has also been shown that they accepted that the nationality of the child descended from the father (This, in fact, is an ancient principle that most nations acknowledge to this day.) and that the parents in question were expected to have been married at the time of the child's birth so that the child would be "legitimate".

As far as your contributions at Obama--nation.com are concerned, I've been there and won't be going back. What you post here is sufficient demonstration of the value of your arguments. And, while much of what you argue is spot on, your overall arguments are still quite importantly off the mark as Mario and other contributors have shown us all here.

Unknown said...

The civil rights act of 1866 is one of many things that blow obots out of the water. Children of aliens are subject to a foreign power so barry would not even have been a citizen and was never a natural born citizen

MichaelN said...

Stranger said.....
" It is all about NATURAL RIGHTS!

Every American man had, and kept, his natural right to pass his national membership on to his progeny."

Correct!

Natural membership to the citizenry is not necessarily eligibility to be POTUS which requires a higher allegiance.

That's WHY the US Congress changed the naturalization act in 1795 to say "citizen of the United States" instead of "natural born citizen".

The natural-citizens who were native-born in the very place their US parents would die for had a GREATER NATURAL RIGHT than those who were not native-born yet were natural-citizens via inheritance.

They had a higher NATURAL allegiance to the NATION, and because they had the highest possible allegiance to the nation, they were eligible for the highest office.

It's all about a person who is ALREADY a natural-citizen's eligibility to be POTUS.

It's not about an alien being eligible to be a "citizen of the United States".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...



Unknown/NotLinda,

You said: “As you know, obots can cite courts calling native-born children of aliens ‘natural born citizens’ http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/01/natural-born-citizen-at-law/ .”

It never dawned upon the minds of any of those lower courts that Tes cited that there is a constitutional difference between being a citizen at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment and being a natural born citizen under the common law, let alone one between being a born citizen and a natural born citizen. Those courts engaged in absolutely no historical and legal analysis on the question of what is a natural born citizen. They only assumed as part of their recitation of the facts without deciding as a matter of law that those children were natural born citizens. The cases are therefore of no value whatsoever on the constitutional question of what is a natural born citizen. If I am wrong, you should be able to quote one of the courts stating a rule of law with a source citation that defines what a natural born citizen is.

Unknown said...

I of II

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote, addressing Ajtelles:
"Your find is a good example of why in law school professors tell students of the law that you have to keep reading. Given your find, I am going to retract my point about the popular name of the Fourteenth Amendment being the 'Naturalization Clause.'"

While I'm glad to see you correct that misconception and endorse the 'keep reading' rule, Mr. Apuzzo, how can you be so blind to your situation? Where are your retractions for citing /The Original Constitution/ and that 1845 article in /The New Englander/ while clearly oblivious to what they actually say? They were your own references and they flat-out refute your theory. How could you possibly have read them and still cite them as you did?

You cited /The Englander/ as, "this prestigious law review". Where did you get that idea? It is a religious periodical for the Congregationalist community. The article you cited is about a matter of law -- and utterly trashes your legal theory -- but explains its appearance in a Congregationalist publication thus:

"The question is purely a legal one ; but under the peculiar circumstances of this controversy, we offer no apology for presenting in the pages of the New Englander a discussion which would otherwise be addressed more appropriately, if to any, exclusively to professional readers."
-- 3 The New Englander, Massachusetts and South Carolina, 414.

Did it not strike you as odd that a law review would need peculiar circumstances to discuss a purely legal question without apology? What did you think that meant? Or did you not even read the article you cited?

I have a theory on that. In Googling your reference, I found that other eligibility deniers had previously cited the article in much the same way. My theory -- and correct me if I'm wrong on this -- is that you took their word for it. You did not read the article. You did not know, and decided not to look up, what kind of publication /The New Englander/ was. That's my theory. Is there a more plausible explanation of how a professional attorney came to call a religious periodical, "this prestigious law review"?

Unknown said...

II of II

In the case of Robert Natelson's book /The Original Constitution: What It Actually Said and Meant/, I'm on weak ground espousing the "keep reading" principle, as I have not read it myself. Ajtelles told me I should read it, and not having sufficient time to do so just now, I merely searched for whether it says anything particularly relevant to the eligibility question. It does:

"Most importantly, the President and Vice President had to be natural-born citizens or citizens at the time of ratification. We know exactly what the Founders meant by the phrase 'natural born citizen' because they adapted it from the English legal term, 'natural born subject,' which in Britain defined who could serve in Parliament or the Privy Council. Essentially, a natural born citizen was one who met either one of two requirements. First, a person qualified if born in within the United States or within American territory, even if the person's parents were aliens. Alternately, an individual qualified even if born outside the country if the individual's father was an American citizen not then engaged in traitorous or felonious activities."
-- Robert G. Natelson, /The Original Constitution: What it Actually Said and Meant/, Second Edition, May 17, 2010, page 127.

Ajtelles subsequently admitted that the paragraph I quoted from page 127 is the only such reference in the entire book. If you disagree, Mr. Apuzzo, please tell what else the book says specifically about Article II eligibility.

You, Mr. Apuzzo, in an article on this blog, cited and quoted Professor Natelson's book thus:

"The Founders and Framers studied and were greatly influenced by Vattel. R.G. Natelson, The Original Constitution 49 and 69 (2010) ('Vattel was probably the Founders’ favorite authority on international law . . . .' and his, treatise, The Law of Nations, was their favorite)."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2012_11_01_archive.html

Does it not dawn on you how well your own citation supports what obots had been explaining to you right here? You pitch a line about obots being wrong to take the Constitutional use of the term "The Law of Nations" to mean international law. You want to apply it to Article II eligibility. Quite something that the source you chose to cite on the matter takes the obot side.

Anonymous said...

MichaelN errs thusly: Natural membership to the citizenry is not necessarily eligibility to be POTUS which requires a higher allegiance."

All natural members of the States and nation were those born of natives and naturalized citizens who were loyal to the revolution.

The were born as natural citizens. In English that translates by compression as meaning they were "born natural citizens", or "natural born citizens", depending on what you wish to focus on.

There is no mention of nor connection to a test of allegiance which natural citizens could fail or pass in order to be among the male population that was eligible to be President.

Any man born of citizens who was chosen by the population and electoral college could be President. Allegiance was not measured by anything other than the man's record and writings, -not his birthplace. Birthplace would be a cheap, pathetic excuse for real allegiance.

Was Washington's allegiance judged by where he was born? How about Jefferson, -and John Adams? How about his 10 year old eldest son, John Quincy Adams, -future President, who accompanied him twice to Europe and lived there with him for over a decade? Did he acquired foreign "allegiance" on foreign "soil"?

What if he had been born there?

Would his father, a future President himself, have felt he had absolutely no right to even think that his son was an American by nature and right?

You really, really need to put yourself in theirs shoes and answer that question. What did he think? How did he feel about his, and his son's natural rights? Did he kiss them goodbye at the water's edge?

If you think that the right to belong to your own people is not natural, then you can't grasp the truth.
He son, if born in Paris or Holland or London would not have been tainted by any attachment to those nations because he was connected only to his father, and through him to his country.

He would have been American by nature, as was his father who had no foreign blood going back to the Puritans. 100% American, -by blood alone.

98% of the population were natural born citizens but less than 1% were electable. Is that exclusive enough for you?
A.Nash

Anonymous said...

leo derosia said...

"The civil rights act of 1866 is one of many things that blow obots out of the water. Children of aliens are subject to a foreign power so barry would not even have been a citizen and was never a natural born citizen."

Add to that the military conscription laws of the Civil War which exempted foreigners and their of-age native-born sons from the draft because they were not citizens since they were subject to a foreign power.
It's conceivable that the language was ambiguous and native-born sons were not excluded, but you wouldn't know it by how they were worded.

The isolated and insulted members of the high court in 1898 failed to understand what "jurisdiction" involves, and thus misconstrued the 14th Amendment's requirement for it in order for citizenship to attach to the native-born.
By their re-interpretation of subjection to U.S. jurisdiction, Wong could have been drafted into the Army, but that was unthinkable to the U.S. military and U.S. government because of the Civil War conscription laws which codified U.S. policy towards aliens and the alien-born.

A.Nash

Anonymous said...

Mario said: "As I have told you many times over, the natural born citizen clause is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause which can be understood only through the definition of the whole clause and not its individual parts.

In fact, if that were true, John Jay could not have isolated a single word and underlined it, nor could you not prove your assertion, as I've challenged you to do, which you can't do because it is false, a fantasy, a delusion, a doctrine, a dogma. UNPROVABLE!!

Those words are common words and not a term of artifice, not a clause, and not an idiom. Just a phrase.

Does "Mario's natural born child" really mean Mario's cat just because he or I say it does? It doesn't matter what you or your obot allies say, it is not a term of art.
Convince me that it is and you will win the day and I'll quietly go away. Until then, I'll defend the simple truth because it would be great if you understood it.

"a child upon birth follows the condition of his or her parents." YOU ARE CORRECT SIR! Stick with that! The "condition" refers to the social and nationality status. Nothing else.

"If babies do not have, as you advocate, any persona which enables them to have allegiance, loyalty, and faith to the nation..."

-Now I know you do not have any children and never did. No father would ever write words so detached from reality unless he was totally heartless and divorced from his own progeny like a fetal alcohol victim unable to form human attachments.

"Do you think that being born in England was not a big deal? "

If you were born in England then you were an Englishman protected by English rights.

Americans were not Englishmen and had no natural right to those protections since they were not a part of the nation. They were living on the personal foreign property of the Crown.
All rights were apart from the rights of Englishmen except as given by charter. THAT'S WHY THEY HAD CHARTERS!

Like the rights of Puerto Ricans or Guamians or American Samoans. Their islands are not integral elements of the union of the STATES. They are foreign territories. The U.S. Constitution does not apply to them on their own soil except by extra-constitutional means.

A.NASH

Anonymous said...

Mario continued: "does that not sound a lot like Congress’s naturalization acts in which it gave rights and protections...under the Constitution to children born out of the U.S. as though they were born in the U.S.?"

No, it sounds nothing like that. Charters were for all generations to follow, -not for present Englishmen who were visiting America and their wife gave birth there. They and their child were under the protection of English law as free Englishmen. Their rights had nothing to do with the American native's charter rights as non-Englishmen.

As for foreign-born Americans, Congress gave them nothing but the recognition of their natural citizenship by blood connection.

In what dream world do you find in the Constitution any authority for Congress to grant to American fathers the natural right to pass their nationality onto their natural children? Show it to us or retract your false and unconstitutional claim.

As I've repeated shared, the ONLY REASON Congress mentioned such children was to PROTECT their natural right to "follow the condition of his or her parents" from people with your unAmerican, monarchical view.

There were plenty like you at the time of the founding because they had been indoctrinated all of their lives in the Kings system of human ownership based on birthplace.

The principles of the Revolution went right over their heads, as it seems they have with yours as well.

You enemies hold the same view. They are cheering you on with the native-birth fantasy because it is the very foundation of their fantasy.

Until you focus solely on parentage, you are doing them a favor.

Anonymous said...

Mario likes to have it both ways.

He valiantly defends (against the obot attack) the truth that fathers were viewed as the source of their children's national membership, and yet he adulterates that accurate message with the added fantasy factor of a requisite native-birth, thereby combining Natural Rights with the old policy of Royal Rights.

The question is; "How and by what does a father's natural right to convey his national membership to his progeny get terminated?

The neo-nativist doctrine declares that his natural right gets cancelled as soon as his pregnant wife crosses the border and gives birth on soil other than holy AMERICAN SOIL.

So then the question is "Cancelled? Cancelled by what, or who, or how????"

Mario PLEASE!!! explain to us how a father's unalienable natural right gets cancelled merely by his wife giving birth across some imaginary invisible boundary? I DON'T GET IT!! Please elucidate.

Also, please point out where in the Constitution the People of the United States agreed to surrender their God-given natural right to Almighty Government? I can't seem to find it. Maybe you could help. That sure would clear things up. Thanks.

I don't think it would help to refer to "American common law" being as there were actually 13 separate sovereign countries in America. Hard to show they all were in lock-step and not independent, especially in regard to a term that didn't even have a need to exist except in regard to the Command in Chief position.

Aside from it, just simply CITIZEN would suffice for everything. Would it not? I know we agree on that.

Nash

Anonymous said...

Mario said: "In any event, it does not matter where John Quincy was born, for regardless of the place of his birth, he was a citizen and grandfathered to be eligible to be President"

That is an utterly disingenuous response. You know very well that the point was the principle of natural rights and nationality by blood. It absolutely matters what the principle is of denying a foreign-born John Quincy the natural status of a natural citizen, regardless of when he was born.

What is the natural principle that does that? You can cite none, and yet you hold up high the certainty that one exists and is operative for some inexplicable reason.

"...an American ambassador, he would have been reputed born in the United States."

That is some wonderful royal horse manure. "Reputed"? Is that an American concept or hatched out of the back-side of royalist sycophants? IT IS ROYAL CRAP!

It follows natural law but by ignorant human misconception.

Foreigner with no attachment to a land that is not theirs (ambassadors and tourists and guests) are not subject to the government that is not theirs. Their subjection is tied to their homeland, not to a foreign power.

So,.. it would not matter whether or not his father was an ambassador. Only whether of not he was a permanently domiciled immigrant or not.

American Ambassadors, like tourists and guests, are not foreign immigrants, and that is why their children are not foreigners, just as Obama's father was a guest (and not an immigrant) and his son therefore was not an American.

When will you finally acknowledge that you've come to understand that Obama is not an American citizen?

You can't (because you would have learned it from me and God knows, the teacher can't be seen learning from his supposed pupil). Is that too out of line?
Now I need to find something else to steal from you...

ajtelles said...

It's pointless...

Mario on March 31, 2014 at 5:25 AM, h2ooflife, aka Nash, said -

>> "The neo-nativist doctrine declares that ...."

Huh, "neo-nativist?"

Who are the 1787 "neo-nativist" Founders?

Is "neo-nativist" an original birther word?

No.

Who were the 1787 Founders, Framers, Ratifiers and Implementers who may have used "neo-nativist" ideas to guide their debate with "non-neo-nativists" about the original intent meaning of "natural born Citizen" in 1787 before Article II Section 1 Clause 5 was adopted in 1787?

Mario, after your coherent, aka Nash, that means well thought out and articulated with continuity from start to finish, two-part tutorial on March 31, 2014 at 2:41 AM, Nash responded with finger-wag inanity.

it's pointless to have a coherent discussion with Nash because he always wants to go off on an arcane and self-centered tangent such as the arcane "neo-nativist."

Nash, look up "arcane" in the dictionary.

"Arcane ... adj. Known or understood by only a few. See Syn at mysterious."

"Neo-nativist?"

Huh?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "In any event, it does not matter where John Quincy was born, for regardless of the place of his birth, he was a citizen and grandfathered to be eligible to be President"

Since I failed to spell it out, Mario assumed a single hypothetical, but I'm postulating a double one.


Adams returned to America in 1788 but the Wikipedia source doesn't say which month. So suppose it was after June of that year, or even the next year, and even following the ending of his Ambassadorship.

The Constitution had been ratified so John Quinsy, being born after the month of June would not have been eligible to be President according to the nativist doctrine, and worse, would not even have been an America by birth.

So someone needs to explain why that scenario is irrelevant to real American values and principles. A man who was the United States President, son of a President, whose only ancestors were Americans going all of the way back to the Puritans, should be labeled as being... a foreign born natural alien? Or if a citizen, not a natural citizen by birth?

Exactly what category are you shoving him into and why? Is it some legal category and not the one and only natural born category?

How could that be since there was no law yet? There was no central government yet either. How would he not have been a natural son of Massachusetts by birth?
-Not by birth-location, not by dirt, not by borders, but by the blood of those who gave birth to him.
How would the month of his birth make him an alien in need of the statutory blessing and allowance of almighty government simply to be what he was born being by natural & Vattelian principles by which the son takes after the father and inherits ALL of his RIGHTS and privileges?

Please do explain. The world needs to know. You need to know. But you can't because that scenario reveals a big fat flaw in the Matrix of your imaginary nativist citizenship theory.

The Matrix wasn't real, and neither is the elaborate one that you've competently constructed. You have managed to convince everyone that it is real, but some know otherwise.

Likes Adams said: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

Nash

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,
I of II

You have not clearly presented your second Adams hypothetical and I am not going to waste my time trying to figure out what you are talking about. Whatever scenarios you wish to present, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers were guided by the following legal principles which still apply today. It is the proper application of these principles which gives us today the constitutionally correct answer as to who was and who is today eligible to be President.

The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers provided in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 that anyone born before or on the date the Constitution was adopted who was a citizen of any one state, which became citizenship in the United States upon the Constitution being ratified, satisfying the 35-year age and 14-year residency requirements, was eligible to be President . Citizenship could be acquired any way which was available and recognized by any state. Anyone born after the Constitution was adopted (which today includes DF President Barack Obama and Senator Ted Cruz) had to be a natural born citizen in order to be eligible to be President. A natural born citizen included only those persons who were born in one of the states after July 4, 1776 to parents who were citizens (of any state which then became citizenship of the United States) at the time of the person’s birth. After Congress entered the field of legislating who shall be the citizens of the United States and thereby abrogated any English common law rule that may have still prevailed in any state, only if parents satisfied an Act of Congress would they be citizens of the United States, which then put them in a position to give birth to children in the United States who would be recognized under the Constitution as natural born citizens. Remember that the Framers required members of Congress to be citizens of the United States and not just state citizens. They would not have accepted anything less from parents who wanted to give birth to natural born citizens.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Probably given the late troubles caused by the American Revolution, the First Congress declared retroactively through the Naturalization Act of 1790 that any child born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to parents who were citizens of the United States “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” This statute did nothing more than grant to those children to the constitutional degree that it could the rights, privileges, and immunities enjoyed by the natural born citizens. The Third Congress, led by then-Representative James Madison, recognized that there was either no longer any need or it was not appropriate for a naturalization Act of Congress to include such natural born citizen language and so through the 1795 Naturalization Act, with the approval of President George Washington, repealed the 1790 Act and put in its place that of 1795 which provided, among other things, that those same children born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to parents who were citizens of the United States “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Such a change put the act of Congress in line with the powers given to Congress by the Constitution, which in matters of citizenship is only to make through it naturalization powers citizens of the United States and not to make natural born citizens. Since Madison’s, Washington’s, and Congress’s change to the Act, Congress has never again attempted to declare explicitly who are the natural born citizens. But more important, the only right enjoyed by a natural born citizen not enjoyed by a citizen of the United States who was not a natural born citizen was the right and privilege to be President and later Vice-President. Hence, the Third Congress had no reason to taken the time and energy to change the language of the 1790 Act if it was not to specifically make it know that children born out of the jurisdiction of the United States even to parents who were citizens of the United States were not to be eligible to be President.

Congress could have changed the common law definition of a natural born citizen when it drafted and put forth to the people the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866. But Congress only chose to continue to define the citizens of the United States and not the natural born citizens, leaving the meaning of the latter as it had been since the Founding to be provided by the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. As we can see from both the text of the Amendment and from the legislative debates, the amendment does not at all mention the natural born citizens.

What this all means is that today, a natural born citizens is still defined under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. That common law, upon the ratification of the Constitution became constitutional national common law and part of the supreme law of the law, subject to change only by duly ratified constitutional amendment. The constitutional definition of a natural born citizen under that common law is a child born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to U.S. citizens parents (either natural born citizens or citizens of the United States) who had that status at the time of the child’s birth.

Both Obama and Cruz fail to satisfy this constitutional definition of a natural born citizen. They are also not “citizens of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.” Having neither of the only two citizenship status recognized by the Constitution for presidential eligibility, they are both not eligible to be President.

ajtelles said...

Article II and the 14th Amendment...

Mario, I wonder how the nit-pickers will deal with the 3rd to the last paragraph which you posted on March 31, 2014 at 12:58 PM?

>> "Congress could have changed the common law definition of a natural born citizen when it drafted and put forth to the people the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866. [ratified July 9, 1868]

["could have changed ... definition - bingo]

>> "But Congress only chose to continue to define the citizens of the United States and not the natural born citizens,

["only ... define ... citizens" - bingo]

>> "leaving the meaning of the latter as it had been since the Founding to be provided by the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution.

["meaning ... since the Founding" - bingo]

>> "As we can see from both the text of the Amendment and from the legislative debates, the amendment does not at all mention the natural born citizens.

["text ... debates ... mention" - bingo]

>> "What this all means is that today, a natural born citizens is still defined under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution."

["still defined ... drafted and adopted" - bingo]

- - - - - - - - -

PS. Mario, in a previous post on March 29, 2014 at 9:50 PM, I said that the "second" Congress corrected the 1790 error of the first Congress, but it was the "third" Congress which corrected the error in 1795.

PPS. I have noticed that the Obama Obithers who hang out at Ken's ObamaConspiracy.org/ have not nit-picked... yet?... my March 29 at 9:50 PM analysis, and very brief exposition, of Ken's "theory" about "natural born Citizen" meaning that, yes birth on U.S. soil is obvious, but ONLY one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS. Ken's “theory” is that BHObama definitely IS eligible to "OCCUPY" the oval office BECAUSE he was born on U.S. soil and, the real hit-job on the U.S. Constitution, with is basically the result of Ken's tacit “theory”, BECAUSE BHO had ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent.

Still watin'... birds chirping happily... watin' watin' watin'.

That leaves only “theory” 1a to consider.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

ajtelles said...

Unknown quotes Ajtelles then picks at figment of imagination nits and finger wags Mario...

On March 31, 2014 at 2:41 AM, Unknown said -

>> "In the case of Robert Natelson's book /The Original Constitution: What It Actually Said and Meant/,
>> "I'm on weak ground espousing the "keep reading" principle, as I have not read it myself.
>> "Ajtelles told me I should read it,
>> "and not having sufficient time to do so just now,
>> "I merely searched for whether it says anything particularly relevant to the eligibility question.
>> "It does:

- - - - - - - - - -

Unknown quotes Natelson -

>> ' "... We know exactly what the Founders meant by the phrase 'natural born citizen'
>> "because they adapted it from the English legal term, 'natural born subject,'
>> "... a natural born citizen was one who met either one of two requirements.
>> "First, a person qualified if born in within the United States or within American territory,
>> "even if the person's parents were aliens.
>> "Alternately, an individual qualified even if born outside the country
>> "if the individual's father was an American citizen
>> "not then engaged in traitorous or felonious activities."
>> "-- Robert G. Natelson, /The Original Constitution: What it Actually Said and Meant/, Second Edition, May 17, 2010, page 127.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "Ajtelles subsequently admitted that the paragraph I quoted from page 127 is the only such reference in the entire book.

>> "If you disagree, Mr. Apuzzo, please tell what else the book says specifically about Article II eligibility."

[...]

Then Unknown goes on a finger-wag jag that majors on minor “pickin' at nits” issues and minors on the major issue of the original intent of the original birthers, the Founders who wrote the original words 'natural born Citizen' for a very good John Jay inspired reason.

Unknown should read the Chapter 2 section titled “Equitable Construction” on page 36.

Paragraph #1 of the section -

“On rare occasions, Founding-Era legal interpreters resorted to a procedure called equitable construction. Courts applied equitable construction when faced with a document in which the literal wording conflicted with the makers' intent. The discrepancy between intent and wording generally was due to oversight or error during the drafting process, or a confluence of conditions the makers had not foreseen.”

cont.

ajtelles said...

Unknown quotes Ajtelles then picks at figment of imagination nits and finger wags Mario...

Part 2

>> “… a procedure called equitable construction.
>> “Courts applied equitable construction when faced with a document in which the literal wording conflicted with the makers' intent. “

It is obvious that, since the 1795 third Congress corrected the error of the 1790 first Congress, the “literal wording” and the “makers' intent” has NEVER been in conflict, at least, not until and since 2008 when the Obama Obirthers tried to position, aka to “frame,” BHObama as a “natural born Citizen” with birth on U.S. soil with ONLY one (1) U.S. Citizen parent BECAUSE BHO had ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, the sound of silence is pleasant, but since the 2008 words, “...we are five day away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America” became to be understood as a stealth hit job on the U.S. Constitution, silence is dangerous to “WE the Posterity” of the “WE the People” Founders who wanted freedom forever for their posterity.

When, if ?, Rob Natelson expands on “natural born Citizen” in a future edition of “The Original Constitution” or other books, articles or on online postings, hopefully he will consider what he has written in Chapter 2 in the section on page 36 titled “Equitable Construction” and the “intent” of the American Founders.

On page 127, Natelson explicitly says that the meaning of 'natural born Citizen” in a union of people, aka a republic with a republican form of government, means the same thing as “natural born subject” of a monarch. Hopefully the retired professor will consider the “intent” of the Founders in their use of “citizen” as applying ONLY to the union of people of the republic of America, and it did NOT meaning the same thing as a “subject” of a monarch.

Hopefully Natelson will correct his error in the same way that the 1795 third Congress corrected the error of the 1790 first Congress.

However, he may have limited his vision... maybe.

On page 40 Natelson says “In recreating the force of the unamended Constitution, therefore, this book generally does not rely on evidence dating later than May 29, 1790. The cut-off date for the Bill of Rights is the date of its ratification: December 15, 1791.”

“... For deducing the original force of the Constitution, I almost entirely exclude material later than 1796.”

Mario, if you write a book someday, write it first to keep 21st century America an Article II Section 1 Clause 5 free and common sense constitutional republic of “WE the Posterity” of the 1787 “WE the People”, and write it second to make a 'whole lotta' money in free enterprise as long as America is free.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Unknown said...

Please comment on Douglas Vogt's case before the US Supreme Court to be conferenced on April 27, 2014. Should we petition the high court to ask that a Grand Jury be appointed as forensic expert Vogt requests? I have followed your beautiful analysis of the "Obama Problem" for several years.

Thank you,

Eldon E. Bell, M.D.
eldonbell@gmail.com

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Poor Unknown/NotLinda, there are so many things that she still does not understand.

She still does not understand that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that for those born before the adoption of the Constitution, satisfying the 35-year age and 14-year residency requirements, being a 'citizen of the United States' was sufficient to be President.

She still does not understand that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, no person who is not a 'natural born citizen' is eligible to be President.

She still does not understand that THEREFORE, for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, being a 'citizen of the United States' is not sufficient to be eligible to be President."
--------------

Au contraire. When you write those things I get to make fun of you for lecturing on what everyone already knows.

What I'm laughing at is your theory that being a "citizen of the United States", in the sense of the Constitution, *excludes* one from being an Article II natural-born citizen. Remember writing: "You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.'"

In that statement of yours, you did not say "not sufficient", as you now pretend. You said "could no longer be". Now I could respond to your comment in kind and start claiming that you don't understand that obvious difference, but of course we know that's not true. You're just throwing e-tantrums, and that's fine with me. I say what you have is invincible ignorance, and you keep proving it for me.

Unknown said...

ar nash does not make a lot of sense sometimes but at least he does not post anonymously and hide behing the puter sucking his thumb like the obamabots do. It is pretty galling to think that our tax money goes to these weasels lying for the evil fraud currently desecrating the White House. I can see why Patriot ann barnhardt does not pay federal taxes to support the criminal regime

Unknown said...

If you are only a citizen and not also a natural born citizen then you are not eligible now you snake

Anonymous said...

ajtelles said... It's pointless... Huh, "neo-nativist?"
Art, just to remind you, everything is at our fingertips these days. It's easy to forget, and I often do, but answers are just a google away.

Mario wrote;
"you have not clearly presented your second Adams hypothetical"

Well allow me to clarify with this: How would the month of his birth [coming after the ratification of the Constitution which then ended the eligibility of all non-natural born citizens subsequently born] make him naturally ineligible on top of being an alien in need of the statutory blessing and allowance of almighty government simply to be what he was born being by natural & Vattelian principles [by which the son takes after the father and inherits ALL of his RIGHTS and privileges]?"

Your position is that John Quincy inherited nothing from his father nor any protection of his natural rights. He not only was not a natural born citizen but he was not eligible to be President as a citizen either because he was born after the Constitution's ratification and on foreign soil so he would be doubly ineligible and not even an American citizen.

That is what you are defending as the foundational policy and law of the freemen who founded the United States. The abrogation of unalienable rights at water's edge.
If government could cancel your Natural Right to pass your treasured American citizenship on to your sons and daughters if your pregnant wife happened to pass beyond U.S. sovereignty and gave birth to them there, then what was the legal mechanism that made such a cancellation possible?
How and why did you lose your rights at water's edge?

Are you declaring that an American father's right that his entire family be recognized as Americans as he was an American was somehow an alienable, impermanent, rescindible right because free citizens surrendered that right to Big Brother Government somehow, someway, sometime?

What is your stand on the unalienable rights of American fathers and families? Which founders mouthed the despicably unAmerican sentiment that Americans give up their rights at water's edge? Please name one.

Mario wrote: "Congress entered the field of legislating who shall be the citizens of the United States...". That's not well worded; it should be "who shall be able to be citizens..."

It was up to the sovereign STATES. They controlled both immigration and naturalization. All Congress was allowed to do was make their 13 separate rules uniform, not to make citizens on their behalf.

Under the 9th and 10th Amendments, the States retained the right to stop their immigration, and restrict the naturalization that it allowed, but in accordance with the rule. They were not required to admit foreigners to their citizenship, but if they did they could not follow a looser nor more strict rule than the national rule.

Surprisingly Mario wrote: "the Framers required members of Congress to be citizens of the United States and not just state citizens." Actually, those are the same thing, which you'll recognize just as soon as you de-capitalize the word "united".

I've advised you about the inherent ambiguity and confusion resulting from not doing that. In almost every instance where one finds "the United States", what is actually being referred to is "these united States" -plural. You know that but remembering it doesn't come naturally to anyone.
Nash.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of II

You are the one with “invincible ignorance” (your words). You think you are on to something. Do you think that you are dealing with brain-dead consumers that you just keep saying the same thing over and over again like some TV or radio commercial? Allow me to demonstrate your ignorance.

You wrote: “What I'm laughing at is your theory that being a ‘citizen of the United States’, in the sense of the Constitution, *excludes* one from being an Article II natural-born citizen. Remember writing: ‘You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.'"

+++++

First, like so many things that you do not understand, you do not comprehend what “could no longer be” and what no longer sufficient mean. You fail to see that the expressions can have the same meaning. If something was sufficient (being a citizen of the United States), but then is no longer sufficient (because now only a natural born citizen will do), it is no longer enough to bring about the desired result (to be eligible to be President). So, being a citizen of the United States “could no longer be” sufficient to be President.

Second, you also have a reading comprehension problem. Can you not see that I wrote a citizen of the United States “could no longer be President.” I did not write as you claim that being a citizen of the United States in the sense of the Constitution “excludes” one from being a natural born citizen. There is a difference between one having a constitutional burden to prove that one has a certain status in order to qualify for a benefit and one being excluded under all circumstances from qualifying for something. Allow me to explain with an example. An item costs $5.00 today. Tomorrow the same item costs $10.00. Tomorrow having $5.00 “could no longer be” enough (sufficient) to buy the item. Having only $5.00 does not necessarily exclude that person from buying the item. He might also have more money at home which makes his total money $10.00. But having the $5.00 alone surely is not sufficient to purchase the item. So, the person has got to do better than just have the $5.00. He better show that he has the $10.00 or else he cannot purchase the item. Thus, the person is not excluded from purchasing the item, unless he only has $5.00. But if the person eventually buys the item, it is not because he had $5.00 to offer in exchange for the item, but only because he had $10.00 to do so. We can conclude from this that a person with $5.00 is not eligible to buy the item because only a person with $10.00 is. If that same person with $5.00 can come up with $10.00, then he can buy the item. Likewise, being a citizen of the United States does not “exclude” one from being President. Rather, it is not sufficient. A person who is a citizen of the United States needs to demonstrate that he or she is also a natural born citizen or else he or she will not be eligible to be President.

Third, you concede (because you have no way to escape it given the plain text of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5) that being a citizen of the United States is not sufficient to be eligible to be President. But you take issue with my statement that a citizen of the United States is not eligible to be President. That can only mean that for you a citizen of the United States is eligible to be President. But if you concede that being a citizen of the United States is not sufficient, how can you then at the same time maintain that a citizen of the United States is eligible to be President? Evidently, you have got a problem with some bad wiring. That’s right, Unknown/NotLinda, today a citizen of the United States is not eligible to be President because only a natural born citizen is.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

By the way, will you care to explain how it could be that as you concede you do not know how the Founders and Framers defined a natural born citizen, but Rob Natelson knows “exactly” how they defined one?

Unknown/NotLinda, you are all talk and no action. Would you care to demonstrate what evidence you have which proves that a child born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents was in the eyes of the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and early Congress a natural born citizen (I did not say considered as a natural born citizen)? Now the answer requires real thinking and writing rather than just throwing pebbles.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "
"the Third Congress had no reason to taken the time and energy to change the language of the 1790 Act..."

Being as yesterday I spent a few hours reading the history of John Adams, let me inform you of why it was changed. Adams ran for President four times; twice against Washington himself, and won only once, but was elected after Washington over Jefferson.

The Federalists favored the British over the French, while the Jeffersonians favored the French over the British, and the rivalry was intense since the country was on the verge of a war with France, -one it could not win against Napoleon. Most immigrants were coming from France and voting against the Federalists and Adams (like they vote for Democrats today). That peaked when the federalist changed the residency requirement to 14 years (!) in 1802 I recall. Here's from wikipedia:

The 1795 Act differed from the 1790 Act by increasing the period of required residence from two to five years in the United States, by introducing the Declaration of Intention requirement, or "first papers", which created a two-step naturalization process,"

"Immigrants intending to naturalize had to go to their local court and declare their intention at least three years prior to their formal application. In addition to the declaration of intention and oath of renunciation, the 1795 Act required all naturalized persons to be "attached to the principles of the Constitution of the United States"

The increase in residency requirement helped to stem the increased, balance-shifting votes of immigrants which were bolstered by the populations of the southern slaves providing unnatural representation numbers in Congress in favor of the Jeffersonians and France.
You can see that changing the descriptor of those born of Americans in foreign travels or residence, (who were combined with those born of newly naturalized foreigners in a single sentence) to be a "Citizen of the United States" had nothing to do with why the previous act was rescinded.

It was merely an editing decision because after combining the two in one sentence, it could not be stated that they were natural born citizens because living children of naturalized fathers were not. So the descriptor of the parent group had to be chosen instead, which they both fit.
If I say in my will that my natural born children shall inherit my estate, then later adopt several children, I might change my will to say my children shall inherit. That change does not redefine my natural born children as adopted, or lesser than what they are, -they're still my natural born children. Nash.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: ""This statute did nothing more than grant to those children to the constitutional degree that it could the rights, privileges, and immunities enjoyed by the natural born citizens"

That is a prime example of how pie-in-the-sky theorizing his thinking can be. Why so? Because there is zero difference between citizens of any kind except when it comes to the position of Command in Chief residing in the presidency.

There are zero "rights, privileges, and immunities enjoyed by the natural born citizens" that are not "enjoyed" by ALL citizens, with the one single, isolate exception mentioned, -an exception that is available to almost no one in real life.
Ergo, the presidential eligibility language of the 1790 Act pertained strictly 100% to presidential eligibility and NOTHING else.

No one can argue that point and point out a single exception to it. Please try. Name a single right, privilege or immunity that natural born citizens enjoyed which all other citizens did not enjoy as well. ALL CITIZENS WERE EQUAL IN EVERY WAY! ...-except when it came to commanding the Army. The Chief Commander had to be a natural citizen by birth, -born of the blood of Americans only.

"Congress could have changed the common law definition of a natural born citizen when it drafted..."

It's hard to change what doesn't even exist. Why didn't it exist? Because no President existed under the British common law. No Citizens existed under the common law. No definition of either existed under the common law, and no national American common law of all the thirteen sovereign nations existed either, nor did any American Natives (Indians). THAT is reality.

But since Mario can't accept reality, I shall take my leave of this endeavor. Adios Amigos.

PS You'll all want to read this expose (which follows up on mine) regarding the fraud known as the Fuddy death cover-up and phoney autopsy. It stinks worse than the birth certificate.
Nash

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Everyone (except those who are dishonest or willfully ignorant) understands that there are three disjoint groups of people in the eyes of the Constitution: natural born citizens, naturalized citizens and aliens*. Members of the first two groups are known collectively as "citizens of the United States". There are no natural born citizens who are not ALSO citizens of the United States.

Thus "only citizens of the United States are eligible to be president" is a true statement and "any citizen of the United States is eligible to be president" is false.

Except for your sycophants, everyone reading this understands what you are trying to do by playing word games with Unknown: twist her words in an attempt to legitimize a third class of citizen never mentioned in the Constitution, statute or judicial rulings (well, maybe in Rogers v. Belli, but that's not relevant to the original meaning of "natural born citizen").


* It should be noted that aliens are people who are citizens of foreign nations, but rather those without US citizenship as US citizens who are also recognized by other nations as their own citizens are not aliens.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario said: "By the way, will you care to explain how it could be that as you concede you do not know how the Founders and Framers defined a natural born citizen, but Rob Natelson knows “exactly” how they defined one? "

Maybe because Professor Natelson is an expert and Unknown is a layperson. But it really isn't that hard---the definition of the terms used in the Constitution, except where otherwise specified, comes from the nomenclature with which the Founders were familiar: the language of the English common law.

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Bell,

Mr. Vogt's petition will be denied without comment by the SCOTUS (as will Mario's). They are not empowered to decide cases or provide the relief that he seeks. Nothing you can do will change this. Even if the SCOTUS heard the case, it would fail any test of merit it was subjected to. In particular, Mr. Vogt is not in any way a forensic expert (certainly he could never be certified as an expert by the court) and his analysis is almost unbelievably stupid. If you don't believe me, find someone with real expertise in electronic images and ask their opinion.

As for your comment about Mario's "beautiful analysis" of the "Obama problem", first off, it's nice to see you admit that this isn't about the Constitution, it's about your hatred of President Obama (and your desire to delegitimize him). Secondly, if truth is beauty then Mario's cherry-picked, fallacious and dishonest arguments are some of the least beautiful things in existence.

ajtelles said...

Original Intent Reality...

Part 1

On April 1, 2014 at 8:01 AM, Slartibartfast, in the context of his written text, "stood" next to commenter Eldon E. Bell, M.D., who had made a comment published on March 31, 2014 at 4:58 PM.

After telling "Mr. Bell" that

>> "Mr. Vogt's petition will be denied without comment by the SCOTUS (as will Mario's),"

and giving his opinion about what the SCOTUS can or cannot do, the merit of the case, Vogt's forensic ability, and suggesting that Dr. Bell get the opinion of electronic images experts, of course, preferably the "experts" that agree with the Obama Obats, aka Obirthers, S...fast made his usual low blow comment.

After make somewhat sensible comments of opinion, and still "standing" next to Dr. Bell, with Dr. Bell standing to S...fast's right, S...fast throws a sucker punch with a weak left fist.

>> "As for your comment about Mario's "beautiful analysis" of the "Obama problem",
>> " first off, it's nice to see you admit that this isn't about the Constitution,
>> "it's about your hatred of President Obama (and your desire to delegitimize him).

>> "Secondly, if truth is beauty
>> "then Mario's cherry-picked, fallacious and dishonest arguments
>> "are some of the least beautiful things in existence."

- - - - - - - - - -

So, true to Obatty Obirther malice and expressions of hate, S...fast tacitly accuses an innocent commenter of “hatred” concerning what? Race? Lying? Deception? Subterfuge? Obfuscation? Arrogance? Economic idiocy?

S...fast, which expression of “hatred” are you positioning, aka “framing,” Dr. Bell?

Well, what else can we expect from an everybody-is-a-hater-who-questions BHO's lineage, heritage, nationality, nativity?

What can we expect from Obatty Obirther nit-pickers when defenders of the original birthers express legitimate and honest opinions about BHO's lineage, heritage, nationality, nativity?

cont.

ajtelles said...

Original Intent Reality...

Part 2

Why are the Obirthers stuck in the "hatred" rut of responses to fellow Americans who simply express their legitimate opinions that BHObama made, to mention the most obvious from before being sworn in as POTUS, a stealth hit-job on the U.S. Constitution with his promise, aka a threat to the original intent of the original birthers, the Framers, Founders, Ratifiers and Implementers of the U.S. Constitution, "...we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America?"

Is it because the Obatty Obirthers know that being born on U.S. soil to TWO (2) U.S. Citizen parents is the implicit meaning of "natural born Citizen?"

Is it because the Obirthers know that being born on U.S. soil to only ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent is the best that BHO had to offer the American electorate in 2008 and 2012?

In conclusion on that thought with a paragraph published on March 31, 2014 at 4:07 PM with the header
>> “Unknown quotes Ajtelles then picks at figment of imagination nits and finger wags Mario...”

>> "It is obvious that, since the 1795 third Congress corrected the error of the 1790 first Congress,
>> " the “literal wording” and the “makers' intent” has NEVER been in conflict,
>> "at least, not until and since 2008 when the Obama Obirthers tried to position, aka to “frame,” BHObama
>> "as a “natural born Citizen” with birth on U.S. soil with ONLY one (1) U.S. Citizen parent
>> "BECAUSE BHO had ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent."

Yes, BECAUSE he had ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent is WHY the Obama Obirthers have defended ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent for BHObama since 2008.

The Obirthers aren't stupid about original intent, they are simply distance sycophants with a "fundamental transformation of America" from individualism to collectivism agenda. They are "lean forward" cadre.

S...fast, that's NOT “hatred,” THAT is Article II Section 1 Clause 5 original intent reality.

PS. Obirthers, would you defend Sen. Ted Cruz with the same persistence about his being born on FOREIGN soil to ONE (1) U.S. Citizen parent?

No? Why? Is it because, to Obama Obatty Obirthers, birth soil is more important than BOTH birth parents, who, BOTH being required for conception, only ONE is required for gestation and birth, so for that arbitrarily chosen natural law reason ONLY one, yest just ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for conveying positive law citizenship?

Art
U.S Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Virtually every one of your comments contains the word cherry-picked. Would you care to explain what I have cherry picked?

Also, you are the one who plays word games with your “natural born,” “citizen at birth,” “citizens by birth,” “born citizens,” “native-born citizens,” naturalized citizens,” etc. It is really much simpler than all that.
The Constitution says there are “natural born citizens” of the United States and there are “citizens” of the United States. That is it.

We start with the natural born citizens. Under the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution, they are children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This is the only relevant definition of a natural born citizen because this is the only one the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and people used to define the clause. Hence, a natural born citizen of the United States under that common law is a child born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Then we move to the citizens of the United States. All natural born citizens of the United States are necessarily also citizens of the United States. But not all citizens of the United States are natural born citizens because some are not. Some are not because they do not satisfy the common law definition of a natural born citizen. Of all the citizens of the United States, only those who were born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth are also natural born citizens. This being the definition of a natural born citizen, it follows a fortiori that any person who satisfies that definition would be a natural born citizen, regardless of whatever other type of citizen he or she may be. All the rest of the citizens of the United States who are not natural born citizens are simply citizens of the United States. These latter citizens of the United States who are not natural born citizens are those who are so made by the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, and treaties.

What this means is that not all people who are born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof are natural born citizens. Of these, those who are born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, thus satisfying the common law definition of a natural born citizen, are not only citizens of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress, but also natural born citizens under the common law. Of these, those who were born in the United States to one U.S. citizen parent (like DF President Barak Obama) or no U.S. citizen parents (like Senator Marco Rubio, Governor Bobby Jindal, and Governor Nikkie Haley), not satisfying the common law definition of a natural born citizen, are citizens of the United States, but not also natural born citizens.

What this also means is that persons like Senator Ted Cruz, who were born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to one U.S. citizen parent and who are citizens of the United States under an Act of Congress are citizens of the United States, but cannot also be natural born citizens, for those persons, not being born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, do not satisfy the common law definition of a natural born citizen.

So there you have natural born citizen 101.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I see that you just keep telling the two Minor lies that it referred to the English common law when defining a natural born citizen and left open some question as to what a natural born citizen was."

'Tis crank nonsense to exclude English law from: "At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted [...]" As could hardly be more obvious, it is talking about the undoubted case in all the bodies of law with which the Framers were familiar.

Minor did not define natural-born citizen. That's just the error of affirming the consequent.

In literally the next paragraph, the Minor Court writes:

"Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided [...] that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since." Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875) at 168.

You accused me inventing stuff when I pointed this out, but it's right there in Minor: Considering children born to citizens out of the limits of the United States to be natural-born citizens was under the power of Congress. Clearly the Court did not intend to define "natural-born citizen" as one born in the country to parents who were citizens. "Citizen from the moment of birth" is the definition of "natural born citizen" that is entirely consistent with Minor. Yours does not work.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You simply insist on telling us that the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress define a natural born citizen when they clearly do not."

I don't recall ever attributing the definition, which is "citizen from birth", to either Congress or the Fourteenth Amendment. That's the definition that consistent with our legal history, but neither Congress nor the Fourteenth Amendment is its source.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Finally, you pawn off Jack Maskell’s theory that all born citizens are natural born citizens. I have been through that one in many different ways, showing that it is a theory just made up by Maskell, for which he does not provide historical and legal evidence."

You mistook Maskell’s conclusion for a premise, and out outright fabricated a premise that Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are born citizens. Maskell never mentioned Cruz.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"As I have previously explained, Maskell defeats himself by his own contradictory conclusion. Our early Congress in the early naturalization acts (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855) treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born."

Your own false claims about the naturalization acts do not constitute a contradiction in Maskell's work.

The early naturalization acts say nothing about the citizenship of those born in the United States. You've tried that argument in court, Mr. Apuzzo, and I don't think the judges could even tell what you were talking about. I'm pretty sure I can.

You read in the 1790 act:
"the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States."

And you take it to imply:
The children of such person *not* so naturalized shall *not* be considered as citizens of the United States.

That's an "inverse error", or fallacy of denying the antecedent. Explanations of why it is invalid usually point out cases where the consequent could be true for other reasons, as is the case here. The children of aliens could themselves be citizens for various reasons.

You sometimes claim, incorrectly, that the first naturalization acts say such children "become" citizens when their parents naturalize. "Become" would arguably imply that they could not already have been citizens. No, that's not what the acts say.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of II

You said:

“'Tis crank nonsense to exclude English law from: ‘At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted [...]’ As could hardly be more obvious, it is talking about the undoubted case in all the bodies of law with which the Framers were familiar.”

You also said:

“I don't recall ever attributing the definition, which is "citizen from birth", to either Congress or the Fourteenth Amendment. That's the definition that consistent with our legal history, but neither Congress nor the Fourteenth Amendment is its source.”

+++++

The Article II clause is "natural born citizen," not born citizen. Why do you act as though the Constitution uses the latter and not the former? You have to provide us with the definition of a natural born citizen as used by the Framers when they adopted the Constitution. Just telling us that DF President Barack Obama and Senator Ted Cruz are born citizens does not get you there.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 informs us that the Framers distinguished between a citizen and a natural born citizen. Hence, the definition of a citizen cannot be used to define a natural born citizen. So, while all natural born citizens are citizens, not all citizens are natural born citizens.

We have evidence from the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) that your truncated definition of the clause which only defines a citizen is not the definition of a natural born citizen that the Framers used when they drafted the Constitution. Minor set out to determine whether Virginia Minor, a woman, was a citizen and if being a citizen Missouri could not deny her the right to vote simply because she was a woman. To determine whether she was a citizen, the Court sought to define a natural born citizen. It said that the Constitution did not define the clause, which meant that not even the Fourteenth Amendment, which was already then in effect, defined the clause. The Court then explained that the definition of the clause was to be found in the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution.

The question arises to what common law was the Court referring? There are many sources in the world that produced common law. One of these sources is natural law which applied to nations became the law of nations. Another source is the English courts. In what the Minor Court said regarding who was excluded from being a natural born citizen, it did not nor could it have defined the clause under the English common law. Rather, it could only be natural law and the law of nations.

It is not that Minor did not consider all common law or that it excluded consideration of the English common law when it said that the definition of a natural born citizen came from the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. By referring to the word “nomenclature,” the Court was referring to “citizen” v. “subject” and “natural born citizen” v. “natural- born subject.” So the Court in effect said that the Framers were familiar with these names which had been used to describe membership in a political and civil society. But then the Court also knew that the Constitution uses the clause “natural born citizen” and not “natural-born subject.” So it was only eminently reasonable that, since the Framers used natural born citizen and not natural born subject, the Court would go on to explain how the common law defined a natural born citizen and not a natural-born subject. It is there that the Court then said that under that common law, children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of their birth were the natural born

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

citizens. It added that under that same common law, all others were “aliens or foreigners.” The Court also sua sponte added that “some authorities” also included as “citizens” children “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents as “citizens.” But the Court said that “there have been doubts” whether children “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents were citizens.

Evidently, in the Minor’s Court’s statement of doubt, the Court (virtually the same Court that decided The Slaughterhouse Cases) expressed doubt whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court said “some authorities” would include those other children as citizen. Under the English common law, there was no doubt that a child born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance and obedience was a natural-born subject. But still, the Court did not go on to explain that those authorities could be correct if the English common law were to provide the rule of decision when defining national citizenship. So, if the Court was relying upon the English common law or what you call “our legal history,” it would not have said that there was any doubt that a child born in the United States to alien parents was a citizen.

The Court said that given the circumstances of the case presented to it, it was not necessary to resolve the Fourteenth Amendment doubts. Virginia Minor was born in the country to citizen parents. She was under the Court’s definition of the clause a natural born citizen. Being a natural born citizen, there was no doubt that she was a citizen and that is what the Court concluded. Since she was a natural born citizen and therefore a citizen, the Court left open the question of whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was a citizen of the United States under the then-new Fourteenth Amendment, an amendment which he Court itself said did not define a natural born citizen, but rather which defined a “citizen of the United States” by birth in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.”

U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) resolved those doubts and held that a child born in the United States and "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" was a citizen from the moment of this birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Wong Kim Ark did not hold that such a child is a natural born citizen under the common law relied upon by the Framers.

The totality of these explanations of inclusion and exclusion regarding the citizens and the natural born citizens leads to the inescapable conclusion that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor did not define a natural born citizen under the English common law, but rather under common law that had its source in natural law and the law of nations which on matters of citizenship was adopted at the Founding as American common law. How the Court defined national citizenship, it is abundantly clear that the Court did not believe that the English common law defined a natural born citizen, but rather American common law.

So, pursuant to both Minor and Wong Kim Ark, today the definition of a natural born citizen is a child born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child's birth. This definition excludes from being a natural born citizen any child not born in the United States or any child born in the United States to one or no U.S. citizen parents.

President Barack Obama was allegedly born in the United States. But while he was born to a mother who was a U.S. citizen, he was born to a father who was not a U.S. citizen. He does not satisfy the common law definition of the clause and is therefore not a natural born citizen. Senator Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and a non-U.S. citizen father. He also does not satisfy the common law definition of the clause and is therefore also not a natural born citizen. Both Obama and Cruz are therefore not eligible to be President.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

You said:

“You accused me inventing stuff when I pointed this out, but it's right there in Minor: Considering children born to citizens out of the limits of the United States to be natural-born citizens was under the power of Congress. Clearly the Court did not intend to define ‘natural-born citizen’ as one born in the country to parents who were citizens. ‘Citizen from the moment of birth’ is the definition of ‘natural born citizen’ that is entirely consistent with Minor. Yours does not work.”

As I have repeatedly said, the Framers when they wrote the Constitution defined a natural born citizen. Congress did not define it later through some naturalization act. Your theory would mean that Congress could at will change the Constitution with a naturalization act rather than a duly ratified constitutional amendment.

As I have also told you, even if Congress had the power to define a natural born citizen, then it would have the power to change its mind. And change its mind it did with the Naturalization Act of 1795 wherein it said that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were no longer to be considered as “natural born citizens,” but rather “citizens of the United States.” Without any doubt, the Third Congress knew what Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, being a citizen of the United States was no longer sufficient to be eligible to be President and that only the natural born citizens were so eligible. Knowing such consequences, the Third Congress still removed from the statute the natural born citizen language and replaced it with citizen of the United States. Congress to this day has never again treated any person in any of its naturalization acts as a natural born citizen.

You do not have any historical and legal evidence which shows that the Framers define a natural born citizen simply as a citizen from the moment of birth. On the contrary, I have produced more than sufficient evidence (one piece of evidence being Minor v. Happersett) that they defined one as the children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This means that all natural born citizens are children born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The inescapable conclusion that follows from this proposition is that any person who is not born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth is excluded from being a natural born citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

You said that I read in the 1790 act:

"the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States."

And you take it to imply:
The children of such person *not* so naturalized shall *not* be considered as citizens of the United States.

That's an ‘inverse error’, or fallacy of denying the antecedent. Explanations of why it is invalid usually point out cases where the consequent could be true for other reasons, as is the case here. The children of aliens could themselves be citizens for various reasons.

You sometimes claim, incorrectly, that the first naturalization acts say such children 'become' citizens when their parents naturalize. "Become" would arguably imply that they could not already have been citizens. No, that's not what the acts say.”

+++++

As per Minor v. Happersett (1875), under the common law, children born in the United States to aliens could not be citizens. Minor explained that Congress was free to abrogate that common law and make citizens of those children. But Congress did not abrogate that common law rule until it passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and got the Fourteenth Amendment ratified. So, at the time the Constitution was ratified, there was no other way for a child born after July 4, 1776 in the United States to alien parents to become a citizen of the United States. Logically, what this means is that if and only if the parents of a child born in the United States naturalized while the child was a minor and the minor was dwelling in the United States did that minor child become a citizen of the United States. So, your point that my argument suffers from the fallacy of affirming the antecedent fails. It is also correct that the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States, means that such minor children became citizens upon their parents’ naturalization as specified.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario said:

As per Minor v. Happersett (1875), under the common law, children born in the United States to aliens could not be citizens.

Actually, Minor expresses doubts about such children---in other words, the SCOTUS clearly admits the possibility that they may be citizens.

Minor explained that Congress was free to abrogate that common law and make citizens of those children. But Congress did not abrogate that common law rule until it passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and got the Fourteenth Amendment ratified.

Wrong again, as Binney made clear, the 14th Amendment is merely declarative of the law under the Constitution as originally written.

So, at the time the Constitution was ratified, there was no other way for a child born after July 4, 1776 in the United States to alien parents to become a citizen of the United States.

Untrue again. After the Declaration of Independence, the laws of the several states were controlling and none of them changed the prevailing rule which made the children of aliens natural born citizens. Some, such as Virginia, explicitly wrote the principle of jus soli into their law as well.

Logically, what this means is that if and only if the parents of a child born in the United States naturalized while the child was a minor and the minor was dwelling in the United States did that minor child become a citizen of the United States.

The 14th Amendment explicitly contradicts you, and since it didn't change anything, so does the law under the Constitution as originally written.

So, your point that my argument suffers from the fallacy of affirming the antecedent fails.

No, it doesn't. You are claiming that a statement applies to the native born children of aliens and therefore the native born children of aliens are covered by the statement.

It is also correct that the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States, means that such minor children became citizens upon their parents’ naturalization as specified.

Which in no way denies the possiblity that such children, if native born, were already considered citizens of the United States.

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