Donate

Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   1601 – 1800 of 3179   Newer›   Newest»
MichaelN said...

You might need to watch your blood-pressure Kev.

I know it must really piss you off to be wrong all the time on this, but just stay cool and gracefully accept the truth for a change.

It makes for a better US of A to weed out the lying fake Obama.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The Article II clause is 'natural born citizen,' not born citizen. Why do you act as though the Constitution uses the latter and not the former?"

The truth is that I've been explaining to you, for months now, that the legal consensus on "natural born citizen" meaning citizen from birth is fairly recent. That's nothing remotely like acting as though the Constitutional term literally were "born citizen".


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You have to provide us with the definition of a natural born citizen as used by the Framers when they adopted the Constitution."

There's no record of them agreeing on one. Scholars have settled on "citizen from birth" as the closest we can get, and it clearly has the strongest case. Clearly the term came from the English, "natural-born subject". The Constitution is in English, including the language of English law.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"The question arises to what common law was the Court referring? There are many sources in the world that produced common law."

I don't see why it should confuse you so. For a case *never* to have been doubted it has to mean all which the Framers were familiar. Obviously it includes English law.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) resolved those doubts and held that a child born in the United States and 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof' was a citizen from the moment of this birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Wong Kim Ark did not hold that such a child is a natural born citizen under the common law relied upon by the Framers."

It's still right there, as ALJ Masin told you:
"All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens. Such is the rule of the common law, and it is the common law of this country, as well as of England." NJ Office of Administrative Law in Purpura v. Obama, quoting U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, quoting U.S. v. Rhodes.

Unknown said...

the minor court had doubts about who is a citizen but never about who was a native or natural born citizen. Only a simpleton or a liar would think the child of a foreigner is a native by virtue of birthplace. The 14th amendment is "controlling" now and the term natural born citizen is nowhere to be found in 14th.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Unknown/NotLinda likes to spread the Obot lie that Minor was about voting and not about citizenship. I feel comfortable saying that it is a lie given the following."

I don't recall saying it was not about citizenship. Could you quote me doing so?

I did quote what the Court itself said was the issue before it:

"The question is presented in this case, whether, since the adoption of the fourteenth amendment, a woman, who is a citizen of the United States and of the State of Missouri, is a voter in that State, notwithstanding the provision of the constitution and laws of the State, which confine the right of suffrage to men alone. We might, perhaps, decide the case upon other grounds, but this question is fairly made. From the opinion we find that it was the only one decided in the court below, and it is the only one which has been argued here. The case was undoubtedly brought to this court for the sole purpose of having that question decided by us, and in view of the evident propriety there is of having it settled, so far as it can be by such a decision, we have concluded to waive all other considerations and proceed at once to its determination." -- Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875)

ajtelles said...

Puzo1.blogspot.com … at about 11:45 pm … 04-02-2014
>> page 8

Day 4...

Mario, I have noticed that the Obama Obithers who hang out at Ken Davidson's ObamaConspiracy.org/ have not nit-picked... yet?... my March 29 at 9:50 PM analysis-exposition of Ken's "natural born Citizen" "theory" which tacitly, since he does not offer an exposition of the "theory," posits the notion that "natural born Citizen" means that ONLY one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS.

Ken's “theory” is that BHObama definitely IS eligible to "OCCUPY," my emphasis, not his, the oval office BECAUSE nobody has been able to "prove" that, first, BHO was NOT born on U.S. soil and, the real hit-job on the U.S. Constitution, which is the essence of Ken's tacit “theory”, BECAUSE he had ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent.

Still waitin'... birds chirping happily... waitin' waitin' waitin'.

Only “theory” 1a remains to to be considered.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

An example of your cherry picking? Where do I start? Your misrepresentations are legion and pulling quotes out of context is one of your favorite ways of accomplishing this.

Here are some examples of things that you ignore or distort along with paraphrased versions so you can understand why I believe they undermine your arguments.

From Minor v. Happersett:

For convenience it has been found necessary to give a name to this membership. The object is to designate by a title the person and the relation he bears to the nation. For this purpose the words 'subject,' 'inhabitant,' and 'citizen' have been used, and the choice between them is sometimes made to depend upon the form of the government. Citizen is now more commonly employed, however, and as it has been considered better suited to the description of one living under a republican government, it was adopted by nearly all of the States upon their separation from Great Britain, and was afterwards adopted in the Articles of Confederation and in the Constitution of the United States. When used in this sense it is understood as conveying the idea of membership of a nation, and nothing more.

Simply speaking, subject and citizen are interchangeable terms. This is, of course, important since the question at bar is whether or not suffrage is a privilege of citizenship---they needed to establish that references to subject-hood were applicable to citizenship. In other words, the "unanimous Supreme Court" in Minor seems to have just flat out contradicted the idea that the Founders were making a profound statement in switching from "subject" to "citizen".

SCOTUS 1, Mario 0



Additions might always be made to the citizenship of the United States in two ways: first, by birth, and second, by naturalization. This is apparent from the Constitution itself, for it provides that 'no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President,' and that Congress shall have power 'to establish a uniform rule of naturalization.' Thus new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.

So the only way to get new citizens is for a person to be born a citizen under the Constitution (in which case they are eligible for the presidency) or for a new citizen to be created under the naturalization power of Congress. Not only does this strengthen the argument that there are only two classes of citizen: naturalized and natural born, it implies that President Obama, a citizen under the Constitution, is natural born. This actually leaves the door open to attack Rafael Cruz's eligibility since his citizenship is due to an act of Congress. In light of comments below, I think this is a losing argument in the courts, but at least it isn't a frivolous argument like the one against President Obama.

SCOTUS 2, Mario 0

Slartibartfast said...

The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.


This, of course, contains Mario's "money quote", which he never seems to present with all of the context. First off, while there are nuances to be argued about English common law and American common law, it is clear that they both use the same nomenclature. Thus, it is absolutely appropriate to look to the English common law for definitions of terms in the Constitution and, since we saw above that "citizen" and "subject" are interchangeable, the Constitutional definition of natural born citizen must be equivalent to the English common law definition of natural born subject.

Looking further, we see a class being "distinguished from aliens or foreigners"---the class which Virginia Minor belongs to and another class about which doubt was expressed (as to whether or not it is distinguished from aliens or foreigners). Since doubt was expressed, an honest person must admit that it is possible that this other class is included in the natives (remember that natives are not naturalized by an act of Congress and are thus natural born). The unanimous SCOTUS goes on to say that they will not settle the doubts---leaving open the possibility that "natural born" includes everyone born under the jurisdiction without regard to parentage.

SCOTUS 3, Mario 0


Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided 'that any alien, being a free white person,' might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, and that the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under twenty-one years of age at the time of such naturalization, should also be considered citizens of the United States, and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens.8 These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since.

This tells us that not only did the Naturalization Act of 1790 make (at least some) children born overseas to American parents natural born citizens, but that later naturalization acts, even though the language was different, made children natural born as well.

SCOTUS 4, Mario 0



Slartibartfast said...

Other proof of like character might be found, but certainly more cannot be necessary to establish the fact that sex has never been made one of the elements of citizenship in the United States. In this respect men have never had an advantage over women. The same laws precisely apply to both. The fourteenth amendment did not affect the citizenship of women any more than it did of men. In this particular, therefore, the rights of Mrs. Minor do not depend upon the amendment. She has always been a citizen from her birth, and entitled to all the privileges and immunities of citizenship. The amendment prohibited the State, of which she is a citizen, from abridging any of her privileges and immunities as a citizen of the United States; but it did not confer citizenship on her. That she had before its adoption.

Here we see that the 14th Amendment didn't affect the citizenship of anyone (save making the citizenship of the former slaves explicit). In other words, the Amendment didn't change the citizenship status of anyone except those effected by the Dred Scott decision. Which is exactly what Art quoted Binney as saying.

SCOTUS 5, Mario 0


So, taking a closer look at the case that Mario claims to support his position, we see that is only true when small passages are taken out of context and misrepresented.

While each of these excerpts individually sinks Mario's argument, it is when you starting looking at the issue in the context of all of them that it becomes clear just how frivolous the legal theory expounded by Mario is.

Let's take a look at the controlling case on birthright citizenship and see just how bad an awareness of context is for the birthers...


From Wong Kim Ark

"The common law principle of allegiance was the law of all the States at the time of the Revolution and at the adoption of the Constitution, and, by that principle, the citizens o the United States are, with the exceptions before mentioned,"
(namely, foreign-born children of citizens, under statutes to be presently referred to)
"such only as are either born or made so, born within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States or naturalized by the authority of law, either in one of the States before the Constitution or, since that time, by virtue of an act of the Congress of the United States."
P. 20.
"The right of citizenship never descends in the legal sense, either by the common law or under the common naturalization acts. It is incident to birth in the country, or it is given personally by statute. The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle. "


There is no doubt about the common law principle of allegiance that was the law at the time of the Revolution---that would be the principle of jus soli codified in Calvin's case. This understanding is reinforced by the explicit reference to those born within the US and under its jurisdiction being born citizens. Finally, we are told that neither the common law nor the common naturalization acts allows citizenship to be passed from parent to child, but rather, a person's citizenship derives either from native birth or an act of Congress. Putting this all together with the final sentence, we see that President Obama and Mr. Wong are as much citizens as Virginia Minor and for the same reason. This reason could not include citizen parents as Mr. Wong didn't have any nor could it include naturalization by an act of Congress as it was illegal for Mr. Wong to be naturalized and we know that Ms. Minor was natural born. The only possible condition that could make all three citizens would be the principle of jus soli. Since Ms. Minor derived her natural born citizenship from being born on the soil, it only stands to reason that Mr. Wong and President Obama are natural born citizens due to their birth in the US as well.

SCOTUS 6, Mario 0

Slartibartfast said...

IV. It was contended by one of the learned counsel for the United States that the rule of the Roman law, by which the citizenship of the child followed that of the parent, was the true rule of international law, as now recognized in most civilized countries, and had superseded the rule of the common law, depending on birth within the realm, originally founded on feudal considerations.

Losing counsel admitted that the common law rule made native birth sufficient for citizenship, but argued that in most countries the citizenship of the child followed that of the parents. This was referred to as the rule under international law (or, as the Founders would have said, the law of nations). Unfortunately, this doesn't square with Mario's mistranslation of Vattel, but either way the court said...

SCOTUS 7, Mario 0



But at the time of the adoption of the Constitution of the United States in 1789, and long before, it would seem to have been the rule in Europe generally, as it certainly was in France, that, as said by Pothier, "citizens, true and native-born citizens, are those who are born within the extent of the dominion of France," and


... that the general rule in Europe at the time was that of jus soli.

SCOTUS 8, Mario 0


"mere birth within the realm gives the rights of a native-born citizen, independently of the origin of the father or mother, and of their domicil;"

Uh oh... "mere birth within the realm" is enough to confer citizenship (not to mention that "natural born" and "native born" were frequently used as synonyms in the Founders' generation and after). Worse yet, not only is the nationality of either parent irrelevant, but so is their domicile. Kind of makes you think that while the domicile of Mr. Wong's parents was mentioned in the ruling, it wasn't necessary to make Mr. Wong a citizen, doesn't it?

SCOTUS 9, Mario 0


and children born in a foreign country, of a French father who had not established his domicil there nor given up the intention of returning, were also deemed Frenchmen, as Laurent says, by "a favor, a sort of fiction," and Calvo, "by a sort of fiction of exterritoriality, considered as born in France, and therefore invested with French nationality." Pothier Trait des Personnes, pt. 1, tit. 2, sect. 1, nos. 43, 45; Walsh-Serrant v. Walsh-Serrant, (1802) 3 Journal du Palais, 384; S.C., S. Merlin, Jurisprudence, (5th ed.) Domicile, § 13; Prefet du Nord v. Lebeau, (1862) Journal du Palais, 1863, 312 and note; 1 Laurent Droit Civil, no. 321; 2 Calvo Droit International, (5th ed.) § 542; Cockburn on Nationality, 13, 14; Hall's International Law, (4th ed.) § 68. The general principle of citizenship by birth within French territory prevailed until after the French Revolution, and was affirmed in successive constitutions from the one adopted by the Constituent Assembly in 1791 to that of the French Republic in 1799. Constitutions et Chartes, (ed. 1830) pp. 100, 136, 148, 186.

Once again we see that, under the common law of France, the right of citizenship does not descend, in the legal sense, but only by a "sort of fiction of exterritoriality" by which the child born overseas is "considered as born in France". This is completely contrary to both the argument which the counsel for the US was making as well as the argument that Mario has made.

SCOTUS 10, Mario 0

Slartibartfast said...

The Code Napoleon of 1807 changed the law of France and adopted, instead of the rule of country of birth, jus soli, the rule of descent or blood, jus sanguinis, as the leading principle; but an eminent commentator has observed that the framers of that code
"appear not to have wholly freed themselves from the ancient rule of France, or rather, indeed, ancient rule of Europe -- de la vielle regle francaise, ou plutot meme de la vielle regle europienne -- according to which nationality had always been, in former times, determined by the place of birth."


So it appears that the idea of descent by blood didn't take hold until nearly two decades after the Constitution was ratified and it didn't totally replace the idea of jus soli citizenship even then.

SCOTUS 11, Mario 0



Finally, we have this gem:

112 U.S. 1114.
The decision in Elk v. Wilkins concerned only members of the Indian tribes within the United States, and had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian, African or Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.

The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, "All persons born in the United States" by the addition "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country. Calvin's Case, 7 Rep. 1, 18b; Cockburn on Nationality, 7; Dicey Conflict of Laws, 177; Inglis v. Sailors' Snug Harbor, 3 Pet. 99, 28 U. S. 155; 2 Kent Com. 39, 42.


This neatly refutes arguments such as those made by MichaelN that Barack Obama Sr. was not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, meaning that President Obama has 14th Amendment citizenship, which we now know means that he would have been a natural born citizen under the Constitution as originally written.

Final Score: SCOTUS 12, Mario 0


That's an even dozen examples of context from Wong and Minor that you avoid. There were many other appropriate quotes which I didn't use. The fact is that while any number quotes that contradict your argument can be found in the context you ignore, what is truly devastating is how the entire context weaves together into a single tapestry clearly supporting the conclusion that you are trying desperately to deny: President Obama is a natural born citizen. No honest person who reads and understands the Wong Kim Ark decision can fail to see this implication.

So, Mario, will you acknowledge that the court in Minor was sure that "citizen" and "subject" meant essentially the same thing, but they had doubts about what you call a definition? Or that Barack Obama Sr. was subject to US jurisdiction? How about the notion that the English common law and the American common law shared the same nomenclature? Or the idea that all citizens of the United States are either naturalized or natural born? Would you agree that citizenship is not transmitted by blood according to the common law?

I'm guessing that you'll just ignore all of those questions or answer straw man versions of them, declare victory and keep pulling quotes out of context and misrepresenting them to serve your Quixotic quest to incite sedition against the lawful President of the United States.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Doctor Conspiracy's first name is Kevin and the obot position is that either native birth OR one citizen parent* is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both. You might find more people willing to respond to you if you didn't make straw men of their positions.

* possibly subject to statutory qualifications.


Leo,

As Binney told us, the 14th Amendment didn't change the law which prevailed under the Constitution as originally written and it is clear that the idea that the child of foreigners born on the soil was a native citizen prevailed throughout Europe at the time of the Founding. Only a simpleton or a liar would deny that such a child would have been a natural born subject of England or France at the time or that the terms "subject" and "citizen" were interchangeable.

MichaelN,

When I'm wrong about something, I'll let you know if it pisses me off (generally I just acknowledge my mistake and move on---you should really try it some time). How does it feel to hate President Obama as much as you do while knowing that you are completely incapable of affecting the president in any way with your foreign sedition, let alone "weed him out"?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Your whole exposition does not prove that your position on a natural born citizen is correct and my position thereon is wrong. The issue is what is a natural born citizen, not what is a citizen of the United States or state citizen. You have done nothing more than conflate a citizen with a natural born citizen. You have presented arguments that have been made historically and in the legal community for what ought to be a citizen of the United States or a state citizen, including a born citizen of the United States, not what is a natural born citizen. In all your quotes, there was never a question of who was a natural born citizen, but rather only of who was a citizen. There has never been any doubt who is a natural born citizen. The doubts have arisen regarding who is a citizen of the United States or of a state.

By winning the American Revolution, America broke its political ties with Great Britain, including being bound to its common law on the national level. To continue to maintain a civil and political society, the free and independent states continued to selectively apply the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures. That state law, whether based on its statutes or its common law, could make state citizens, but after Congress passed its first Naturalization Act of 1790, it could no longer make citizens of the United States. Also, the national government did not adopt the English common law. Rather, it developed its own national common law. That American national common law (not English common law) determined and continues to determine who is a natural born citizen.

Of course a citizen and a subject are analogous terms. They both represent membership in a nation or a state. But that is as far as the analogy goes, for each sovereign country or state is free to determine the means by which one becomes one of its members. In the United States, by our Constitution, on the national level, we have chosen the nomenclature citizen (which applies to republics) rather than subject (which applies to monarchies) and made a critical distinction between a citizen of the United States and a natural born citizen. And each of these different types of citizenships has its own means by which one obtains those status. Under our Constitution, because of the highly national security implications inherit in the offices (nothing to do with your claims of sedition), for those born after its adoption, only the President and Commander in Chief of the Military and the Vice-President have to be natural born citizens (not just citizens of the United States) in order to be eligible for those offices.

The Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, and treaties determine who is a citizen of the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment also determines who shall be a state citizen. A natural born citizen, as universally understood among the civilized nations of the world, is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The Founding generation adopted this universal and immutable rule as part of American common law. This rule was also adopted by the Framers when they incorporated Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 into the Constitution. Hence, under our Constitution, a natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This rule recognizes all the natural born citizens of the world and allows each such child to be born in allegiance and therefore a citizen of only one nation. As applied to the United States, this means that under American constitutional national common law a natural born citizen of the United States is a person born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

The Anti-Obots 100 The Obots 0

Anonymous said...

Today's history lesson:

* What was background of the title: The United States? It was not an original title entirely since the word "united" had been employed by the British in the beginning of the 1700's.

On 1 May 1707, the kingdoms of Britain united, and thus the united kingdom came into being, the result of Acts of Union being passed by the parliaments of England and Scotland to ratify the 1706 Treaty of Union and so unite the two kingdoms. The united Kingdoms of GB, plural,
Here's the several possible ways of labeling the new joint kingdom: 1.) the united kingdoms of GREAT BRITAIN, plural; 2.) the United Kingdoms of G.B. -also plural; 3.) The united Kingdom of G.B.; singular; and 4.) THE UNITED KINGDOM of GREAT BRITAIN.

Well!, the Americans wanted no less of an impressive title for their proud new country, so they had to pick how to label it in print; 1. the united STATES of AMERICA 2. The United States of America 3. THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 4. The united States 5. The United States. They chose the last one and always printed it that way because it gave an appropriately modest but nicely weighty sense of national sovereignty, -which our people felt somewhat inferior in compared to Great Britain and France and Spain.

As the new little upstart on the block, our national pride required a prestigious name that carried the combined weight of the entire nation even when actually referring to the individual states and not the entire nation as a whole under a central government.

Thus instead of writers and printers using a small-case "U" for "united" (as in The united STATES of AMERICA, or The united States), what was almost always written in reference to only "the several States", illogically and improperly employed a capitalized "U", thereby forever confusing everyone into thinking that what was written was in reference to the aggregate nation instead of the individual States of the union. The truth is often seen in the reference to "these" and "their" rights (plural) rather than "its" (singular).

If you want to understand the Constitution and the laws of the first century, you need to bear that fact in mind. The statists had not yet won and usurped most power to the federal government away from the mostly independent States, -although they had a strong advance toward that goal.

Anonymous said...

Slarti, you are arrogantly ignorant, -a pot calling the kettle black.

You wrote: "Barack Obama Sr. was subject to US jurisdiction".

I challenge either side here to show exactly how he was subject. Don't bother, you'll unavoidably be wrong.
He was subject in the same way that foreign ambassadors, -foreign invaders, -alien Indians, -alien Gypsies, and alien guests are subject: NOT AT ALL!!! THEY CANNOT BE DRAFTED!

They are exempt from American sovereignty because they are subject to that of their own government.
Just because you are ignorant of what sovereignty entails when it comes to the men of a nation, does not result in you knowing what you are talking about.

Only men were subject to the full sovereign authority of government needed for 14th Amendment citizenship for a native-born child because only citizen and immigrant men were responsible for national defense.
Inexperienced men who have never known that sovereignty do not know what the hell they are talking about.
If you cannot be required to actually face cannon fire for your country, then you are not a citizen who is fully subject. You are either exempt or in a protected class, or both.

No foreign guest in history was ever in the subject class. Ambassador's sons can't be drafted.
Foreign visitor's can't be drafted. Why? They are not subject, and thus neither is any child born to them unless it grows up to adulthood in America, as a member of American society.

But that evolution to subjection is separate from the status with which they were born. They were born not subject and they thus were born as aliens by American law, -but not by brain-dead American policy.

The policy is a bastardized broad expansion of the Wong opinion, perpetrated by Attorney General John Griggs but even at that, it only provides citizenship, and does not make natural citizens of anyone.
Nash

Anonymous said...

"Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...
Slartibartfast,
Your whole exposition does not prove that your position on a natural born citizen is correct and my position thereon is wrong."

That is totally true, but in both directions. Neither of you can disprove totally each other's position because you both rely on the same fiction; a natural born citizen means what some people thought it meant and not what other people thought it meant.

ZERO resort to principle. Total resort to opinion.

"It means what my term of art defines it to mean."

"No,no, it means what my term of art has always understood it to mean according to the British.

You are both just wallowing in a bog of opinions of fallible men and failing to pull yourselves out by the rope of natural law.

If you want to stand on solid ground and not the quicksand of opinion, then you must resort to the principle of nature. Natural membership. IT ACTUALLY EXISTS!! and every nation on Earth recognizes that fact.

They can't avoid it anymore than avoiding recognizing that a mother's baby belongs to her and no one else. It is an unalienable right of humanity.

"Natural" really means "native-born"

"No, "natural" really means native-born PLUS citizen-born."

"No, it means either / or."

"No, you fools! It simply means citizen-born." -national membership conveyed solely by blood connection, -the sole basis of inheritance.
THAT is even the basis of granting citizenship to a child of an American parent and a foreign parent beyond U.S. borders.

Blood; nothing else. Prove it or your child is not a citizen. Prove it and your child is a citizen by inheritance from you, -NOT by a gift of government.

Only citizenship by naturalization is a gift of government.
Even derivative citizenship is derived from a blood connection to new citizen parents.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

I of II

I see that you are making stuff up again about what is the United States when that phrase is used in the Constitution and what is a natural born citizen.

The Declaration of Independence says: “We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America. . .” That makes perfect sense since there was no nation called the United States yet. Rather, what we had was thirteen free and independent states.

The states got together to form a confederacy or league to better protect themselves. They wrote the The Article of Confederation and Perpetual Union, which at Article 1 said: “The style of this confederacy shall be, ‘THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA’” (capitalization in the original). So now we had the start of what would eventually become a nation with that name.

The whole purpose of the Constitutional Convention was to create a stronger central government. The Constitution, a product of that Convention, created the United States of America, a nation separate and apart from the states. The nation called the United States was comprised of the united states. The nation was still seen as made up of the free and independent states. For example, Article III, Section 3 states: “Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies.” Here we can see that the Framers still saw the nation as made up of the separate and individual states. But all the states united became the nation called the United States.

The Constitution in its preamble says that the Constitution is established for “the United States of America.” It refers to “a Congress of the United States;” the “Senate of the United States;” the “Office of President of the United States;” a “President of the United States of America;” the “Vice President of the United States;” the “Authority of the United States;” “any Office under the United States;” “general Welfare of the United States;” duties, imposts, and excises “shall be uniform throughout the United States;” “Bankruptcies throughout the United States;” “coin of the United States;” the “Service of the United States;” “the Seat of the Government of the United States;” the “Government of the United States;” [n]o Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States;” “Office of Trust or Profit under the United States;” “which Day shall be the same throughout the United States;” “a resident within the United States;” the President “shall not receive within that Period any other Emolument from the United States, or any of them;” [t]he President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States;” the President “shall Commission all the Officers of the United States;” “all civil Officers of the United States;” the “judicial Power of the United States;” the judicial power shall extend to cases in law or equity arising under “this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties;” “the United States shall be a Party;” “[t]reason against the United States;” “Property belonging to the United States;” “Claims of the United States, or of any particular State;” “[t]he United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion;” debts “shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation;” all Senators, Representatives, “Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution;” “Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States;” “Unanimous Consent of the States;” and “Independence of the United States of America.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

The Constitution refers to a national citizen which it distinguishes from a natural born citizen as a “citizen of the United States.”

When the Framers wanted to refer to the individual states in the Constitution they said “the States,” “particular States,” “or any of them,” and “the several States.”

With all this evidence staring you right in the face, it is absurd for you to say that the Framers referred to the individual states when they said “the United States” rather than to the new nation called “the United States of America.”

Finally, I see that you still do not understand that you do not get to make up your own personal definition of a natural born citizen. Your personal opinion of what a natural born citizen ought to be counts for zero. If you are going to persuade anyone, you have to cite and quote relevant historical and legal sources which support your position. To date, the only evidence that you have cited and quoted is your own belief of what a natural born citizen ought to be rather than evidence as to what a natural born citizen is.

ajtelles said...

oops...

1of2

I made a mistake in Davidson's first name, it's not Ken, it's Kevin, and Slartibartfast corrected me with a finger-wag today, April 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM.

As I have told friends for years, when I discover that I have made a mistake, as soon as I admit I am wrong I am right... again.

Yep.
An Obama Obirther rose by any other name is still...

- - - - - - - - - -

S...fast said -

>> "Art,

>> "Doctor Conspiracy's first name is Kevin
>> "and the obot position is that
>> "either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> "is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both."

>> "You might find more people willing to respond to you
>> "if you didn't make straw men of their positions."

>> "* possibly subject to statutory qualifications."

Well, S...fast, at least you didn't sling gutter language this time along with your finger wag, although the mild and silly “straw men” comment without articulation to any Obama Obirther positions that I may have made “straw men” of is border lyin', uh, I mean, border line.

- - - - - - - - - -

Now, S...fast, I'm still watin' and the birds are still happily chirpin' while I'm waitin'... waitin'... waitin'... for a coherent response to my post on March 29, 2014 at 9:50 PM -

>> "That leaves only “theory” 1a to consider."

S...fast, since you've made your Obama Obirther finger-wag, doncha also have substance, at least one teeny tiny sliver of substance, in addition to

>> "and the obot position is that
>> "either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> "is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both"
>> "* possibly subject to statutory qualifications."

to add about Kevin Davidson's "theory" about ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen was the original intent of "natural born Citizen" and NOT TWO (2) U.S. Citizen parents?

S...fast, doncha have anything more than an either/or appetizer with an *asterisk?

Instead, S...fast, you finger-wag for what? For not agreeing with you and the Obama Obirthers who persist in positioning, aka "framing," BHO as a "natural born Citizen" with ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent whether OR not he was born on U.S. soil?

Is THAT your either/or point?

>> "and the obot position is that
>> "either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> "is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both."

S..fast, are you absolutely sure that the "theory" of "either ... OR ... not both" expresses the 1787 original intent of John Jay in his suggestion to George Washington that, to add a buffer to protect control of the executive office and control of the military from FOREIGN influence, access to the presidency should include a higher and more difficult hurdle to contend with than a simple ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?

cont.

ajtelles said...

oops...

2of2

Since your comment is not expository, I'll need to ask three additional questions.

1 - Does "native birth" mean ONLY birth on U.S. soil, or does it ALSO mean maybe, could be, birth on foreign soil?

2 - Does "OR one ... not both" mean ONLY one U.S. citizen parent and NOT two U.S. citizen parents?

3 - Does "OR one ... not both" mean ONLY one U.S. citizen parent and NOT "native birth" on U.S. soil?

What does the *asterisk mean?
>> "* possibly subject to statutory qualifications."

Does the *asterisk mean that the Obama Obirther "theory" of ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent is contingent on, what, the 1787 original intent as implied by the original birthers in Article II, or the 2008 "original intent" as defined by an Obama Obirther judge?

Just wonderin' 'cause your response will draw you into giving a coherent response on behalf of Kevin Davidson to my post on March 29, 2014 at 9:50 PM -

>> "That leaves only “theory” 1a to consider."

S...fast, can you, Kevin Davidson and other Obama Obirthers handle the truth and finally admit that you are wrong, so that as soon as you admit that you are wrong, you too will be right... again?

See how easy it is for the truth that has no agenda to make you free?

As soon as you admit that you are wrong you are right.

Now, say it with me.

The 1787 original intent of the 1787 original birthers, the 1787 original Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and the 1789 Electoral College Implementers, understood "natural born Citizen" as having the higher hurdle meaning of ONLY birth on U.S. soil to ONLY TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents.

Yes! Both.

Birth ONLY on U.S. soil AND, to fulfill the "higher hurdle" aspect, absolutely it MUST be birth to TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE their child was born on U.S. soil.

S...fast. See how easy that was to admit the TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents "higher hurdle" truth that has no agenda, other than to protect WE the Posterity of 21st century America from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic?

- - - - - - - - - -

PS. Maybe, S...fast, instead of nit-picking this post, why not instead nit-pick and then make a coherent response to my post on March 29, 2014 at 9:50 PM regarding Kevin Davidson's “theory” about ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent is “sufficient to make one a natural born citizen.”

>> "That leaves only “theory” 1a to consider."

And if you choose to not respond to “theory 1a”, we will simply have to assume that something I have written here on this long, comprehensive and coherent post includes some “straw men” that you do not like.

Is that the Obama Obirther game you and others are playing?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Unknown said...

Mario has already proven that the child of a alien was not even a citizen at birth at the time of the Founders and for most of 1800s as well until wka. Binney does not trump the US Constitution, law of nations, NA 1795, minor etc. Get it into your head that a "citizen of the US" is not eligible now and that includes anyone who was allowed to become a "citizen" by a act of Congress since 1787. The only people whose definition matters is those who were in the room in philadelphia who wrote the US C. If you were not a nbc back in 1787 then you are not one now, nothing has changed

ajtelles said...

The "obot position" in one "either/OR ... not both" comment...

Mario, the Obama Obirther goose is cooked, and today, April 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM, Slartibartfast revealed how cooked it is.

Today, April 3, 2014 at 11:38 PM, I responded to an S...fast finger-wag at me, a short segment is included below, followed with S...fast's excellent 7:27 AM "Obama Obirther goose is cooked" quote.

>> "S...fast, doncha have anything more than an either/or appetizer with an *asterisk?

>> "Instead, S...fast, you finger-wag for what? For not agreeing with you and the Obama Obirthers who persist in positioning, aka "framing," BHO as a "natural born Citizen" with ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent whether OR not he was born on U.S. soil?

>> "Is THAT your either/or point?

Next is S...fast's excellent articulation of the Obama Obirther position.

>> "and the obot position is that
>> "either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> "is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both."


My question to S...fast -

>> "S..fast, are you absolutely sure that the "theory" of "either ... OR ... not both" expresses the 1787 original intent of John Jay in his suggestion to George Washington that, to add a buffer to protect control of the executive office and control of the military from FOREIGN influence, access to the presidency should include a higher and more difficult hurdle to contend with than a simple ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, with the common sense original intent presupposition that "higher hurdle" also includes birth on U.S. soil as preferable to birth on foreign soil for an aspirant to the office of POTUS, the simple question that S...fast and all Obama Obirthers need to answer is simple.

Which is the "higher hurdle" that will help to protect the Chief Executive and Commander-in-Chief office from FOREIGN influence?

ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent. [ ]Yes ... [ ]NO

or

TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents. [ ]Yes ... [ ]NO

I don't think that John Jay was suggesting to George Washington that ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent was Jay's “highr hurdle” preference.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Anonymous said...

"The Constitution refers to a national citizen which it distinguishes from a natural born citizen as a “citizen of the United States.”

That is a perspective that resides in the mind and not on the page. It resides in your mind, not mine any longer because I've come to understand that unless shown by context, the word "State" when used in conjunction with "united" refers to the union of the STATES and not the to-be-created central government.
After the Declaration's uncapitalized "united", the meaning did not change but the capitalization did, hence the reference to a citizen of the united States (or United States) refers to a citizen of any of the united countries of America.

One country composed of 13, each with their own citizens and Constitutions. No federal or national citizens could exist until the Federal District of Columbia was created and someone was born in it.
Such a child was a citizen of his parents' State first, and a conceptual citizen of the national government if it chose to recognize native-birth as conferring U.S. nationality. But it did not do that. So all citizens were citizens of the States, not the nation by its lonesome.

Read the 13th Amendment if you believe this that you wrote:

When the Framers wanted to refer to the individual states in the Constitution they said “the States,” “particular States,” “or any of them,” and “the several States.”
It disproves it in substance. "-within the United States or any place subject to THEIR jurisdiction."
It was applied to the States only,-not the federal gov. Slavery is still legal in D.C. and within federal lands.
Nash

Anonymous said...

"leo derosia said...

Mario has already proven that the child of a alien was not even a citizen at birth at the time of the Founders and for most of 1800s as well until wka"

The blindness afoot here is in part the result of thoughtless and dogmatic thinking. When will people learn that you canNOT use the term "citizen" this or that without any reference as to what the context is.

What the heck are you talking about??? STATE citizenship or National citizenship? STATE government or federal government?
State law or national law? (-or policy?)
THEY ARE NOT THE SAME! They are not interchangeable. That is why doubts existed!

Some States had jus soli laws for immigrant's native-born children while the federal government recognized only one nationality; not two. American or foreign; -not both!
Hence a Dichotomy. A Divergence. A Disharmony. A conflict. A confusion. Which one was supreme?
There was no Constitutional provision to make the federal policy dominate over State laws, and that is why it remained unsettled on up to 1898, -over a century.
It was settled the by high court for children of immigrants, no one else.
Children of NON-immigrants are NOT U.S. citizens by Wong nor the 14th Amendment on which it was supposedly based.

Their presumed citizenship is based purely on policy, not law. When will sheepish people finally get that through their heads?
Obama is not a U.S. citizen by the 14th Amendment.

Is everyone here to big of a coward to acknowledge what is staring you in the face?
It seems you all are. And not worth the time it takes to try to pry open your tightly closed turtle shells.
Nash

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Your continued harping about "only one citizen parent" is clearly a poor attempt to conflate President Obama's eligibility with that of Rafael Cruz. While both are eligible, it is for entirely different reasons. Questioning President Obama's eligibility is ridiculous on its face while an argument could be made against Mr. Cruz although it would ultimately be unsuccessful.

As to the asterisk in my comment, the citizenship of children born outside the US to citizen parents is due to statutes and the parents must satisfy the appropriate statutory requirements. For instance, Rafael Cruz's mother satisfied the requirements while Dr. Dunham wouldn't have unless she was considered unmarried due to her husband's bigamy.

Fortunately for President Obama, he was born in Hawai'i so it isn't a relevant issue. I'll give you a coherent explanation as to why in another comment.

Slartibartfast said...

Ignore or misrepresent. Pretty much what I expected from you Mario.


Your whole exposition does not prove that your position on a natural born citizen is correct and my position thereon is wrong.

As a mathematician, "prove" is a big word to me, but I gave a dozen examples (and could easily have picked out another dozen) which show your position to be in conflict with the SCOTUS while you've ignored these contradictions and merely repeated your fallacious positions.

The issue is what is a natural born citizen, not what is a citizen of the United States or state citizen.

Yes. I've established (based on citiations in my last series of comments) that citizens come in two flavors---natural born and naturalized. There is simply no support for the third class of "14th Amendment citizen" that you are so desperate to create.

You have done nothing more than conflate a citizen with a natural born citizen.

Not true. I've been clear that I believe the class of "citizens of the United States" includes both naturalized and natural born citizens (and nothing else).

You have presented arguments that have been made historically and in the legal community for what ought to be a citizen of the United States or a state citizen, including a born citizen of the United States, not what is a natural born citizen.

On the contratry, my arguments follow the holding in Wong Kim Ark, the controlling case on birthright citizenship. Unless and until the SCOTUS (or an Amendment) overturns the case, that ruling is the law whether you like it or not.

In all your quotes, there was never a question of who was a natural born citizen, but rather only of who was a citizen.There has never been any doubt who is a natural born citizen. The doubts have arisen regarding who is a citizen of the United States or of a state.

Wrong. The court in Minor said that there was no doubt that Virginia Minor was a natural born citizen and the court in Wong Kim Ark said that President Obama was as much a citizen as Ms. Minor and for the same reason---settling the case that the Minor court expressed doubts about in a manner consistent with what James Madison said about place of birth being the primary consideration in determining citizenship. For your assertion to be true, not only does it mean that the Father of the Constitution didn't understand the intent of the Founders, but you need to create a class of non-naturalized, non-natural born citizens which, according to a quote from the SCOTUS above, doesn't exist. If one takes the Supreme Court at its word, all of your arguments collapse.

Slartibartfast said...

By winning the American Revolution, America broke its political ties with Great Britain, including being bound to its common law on the national level.

Once again, you ignore my point and that of the SCOTUS in Minor, which is that they did not break ties with the English language in general nor the language of English jurisprudence in particular. Why do you think the meaning of every single jargon term and every normal English word remained the same except for "natural born"?

To continue to maintain a civil and political society, the free and independent states continued to selectively apply the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures.

Actually, that's a problem for you since you can't show a single state abrogating the natural born citizenship of the native born and at least one (Virginia) actually explicitly wrote it into the law. Which means...

That state law, whether based on its statutes or its common law, could make state citizens, but after Congress passed its first Naturalization Act of 1790, it could no longer make citizens of the United States. Also, the national government did not adopt the English common law. Rather, it developed its own national common law. That American national common law (not English common law) determined and continues to determine who is a natural born citizen.

...that the common law of the several states never diverged from the English common law on this matter, so neither did the American national common law. Thus the only time that "natural born" could have been redefined would have been in the Constitution and even you have admitted that it wasn't.

Of course a citizen and a subject are analogous terms. They both represent membership in a nation or a state. But that is as far as the analogy goes, for each sovereign country or state is free to determine the means by which one becomes one of its members. In the United States, by our Constitution, on the national level, we have chosen the nomenclature citizen (which applies to republics) rather than subject (which applies to monarchies) and made a critical distinction between a citizen of the United States and a natural born citizen. And each of these different types of citizenships has its own means by which one obtains those status.

Unfortunately, that's not what the SCOTUS said in Minor. They seem to feel that "citizen", while more suited to members of a democratic republic, is functionally the same as "subject". What does it feel like to be hoist on your own petard?

Under our Constitution, because of the highly national security implications inherit in the offices (nothing to do with your claims of sedition), for those born after its adoption, only the President and Commander in Chief of the Military and the Vice-President have to be natural born citizens (not just citizens of the United States) in order to be eligible for those offices.

Attempting to usurp the lawful government of a country (or incite others to do the same) is sedition. While you may not have advocated this personally, it is the explicit goal of many in the birther movement.

There is nothing in the writings of the Founders that suggests that a native birth requirement would fail to meet the standard of security that the Founders sought. John Jay said that a "strong check" was needed, not "the strongest possible check". A requirement of native birth prevents the only scenario which the Founders discussed---out-of-work foreign royalty taking over the government (or control of the military).

Slartibartfast said...

The Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, and treaties determine who is a citizen of the United States. The Fourteenth Amendment also determines who shall be a state citizen. A natural born citizen, as universally understood among the civilized nations of the world, is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

No, a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens is universally understood to be a natural born citizen, but the converse isn't true. In fact, today their are countries like Greece for which blood descent is the rule and areas, such as all of the Americas where jus soli prevails. It seems that, according to the SCOTUS, the countries of Europe generally held to jus soli in the time of the Founders.

The Founding generation adopted this universal and immutable rule as part of American common law.

Except for the fact that the rule was neither universal nor immutable nor ever a part of American common law, this statement is totally accurate.


This rule was also adopted by the Framers when they incorporated Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 into the Constitution.

Except you yourself have admitted that the Founders didn't define this rule in the Constitution and the common law hadn't been changed by the time it was ratified. The reasonable assumption is that they intended "natural born" to mean the same thing it had meant for centuries.

Hence, under our Constitution, a natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This rule recognizes all the natural born citizens of the world and allows each such child to be born in allegiance and therefore a citizen of only one nation.

Nations do not consult other nations in order to decide whom they consider their citizens. It is entirely possible for someone to be a natural born citizen of more than one country. In fact, Rafael Cruz is undeniably a natural born citizen of Canada and a born citizen of the US. You should really avoid making statements with obvious counter-examples...

As applied to the United States, this means that under American constitutional national common law a natural born citizen of the United States is a person born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Since all of its underpinnings have been demolished, this statement is just meaningless fluff.

Slartibartfast said...

Since I know you like formal logic, I thought I would give you a proof. The axioms are all justified by quotes in my comments above.

Axiom 1: All citizens are either "natural born" or "naturalized".

Axiom 2: The 14th Amendment is declaratory of the law under the Constitution as originally written.

Axiom 3: All persons in a country save foreign officials and enemy soldiers are subject to its jurisdiction.

Claim: President Obama is a natural born citizen.

Proof:

1. Mr. Wong was born a citizen under the 14th Amendment (SCOTUS holding in Wong Kim Ark

2. Mr. Wong was not naturalized (Chinese Exclusion Act)

3. Mr. Wong was a citizen under the Constitution as originally written (Axiom 2 and (1) )

4. Mr. Wong was a natural born citizen (Axiom 1 and (2))

Conclusion (Lemma 1): 14th Amendment born citizens are natural born citizens under the Constitution as originally written.

5. Barack Obama Sr. and Dr. Dunham were subject to the jurisdiction of the United States in August 1961 (Axiom 3)

6. President Obama was born a citizen (14th Amendment to the US Constitution)

7. President Obama is a natural born citizen under the Constitution as originally written (Lemma 1)

QED

It is clear that President Obama's eligibility follows from the three axioms, and while I'm sure you will disagree with them, it is your word against that of authorities like the SCOTUS or Mr. Binney and the weight of your own authority is little more than that of what the voices in his head are telling Mr. Nash.

Slartibartfast said...

Leo,

The guy that was standing at the front of that room in Philadelphia disagrees with you. He said that location of birth is the primary determining factor in US citizenship.

It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other.

James Madison

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You like all other Obots like to throw around the clauses “natural born” and “naturalized” in your effort to prove what a natural born citizen is. But your argument is incorrect for two fundamental reasons.

First, we are examining “natural born citizen,” not “natural born.” You use natural born so as to equate the meaning of a natural born citizen to a “natural-born subject.” But that is not how it works, for we have to interpret the Constitution first textually. Looking at it we find “natural born citizen,” not "natural born" or “natural-born subject.”

Second, your arguments are based on a misconception of the meaning that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers gave to these expressions. The key to understanding what a natural born citizen is lies in understanding the meaning that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers gave to a “natural born citizen” versus a “naturalized citizen.” Simply, anyone who they considered to be a naturalized citizen was not a natural born citizen. So, by examining who they saw as needing naturalization and through a process of elimination, we can arrive at the meaning that they gave to a natural born citizen.
Incontrovertible evidence of who the Framers and Founders included as naturalized citizens may be found in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. Who did Congress include in those Acts as needing naturalization in order to be a citizen? Did they provide in these Acts for naturalization at birth and after birth?

As to a child born in the United States, Congress treated a child born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization. That child could become a naturalized “citizen of the United States” upon the naturalization of the parents if done during the child’s minority and when the child shall be dwelling in the United States. So as to these children, not being born to citizen parents, Congress considered them as potential citizens of the United States only as of after birth.

As to a child born out of the United States, Congress considered a child born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, first as a natural born citizen (1790 Act), and then as a citizen of the United States (1795 Act and all that followed to the present). So, regardless of whether Congress considered them as natural born citizens or citizens of the United States, these children acquired citizenship at birth by Congress naturalizing them at birth. So, as to these children, being born to U.S. citizen parents, Congress considered them as natural born citizens or citizens of the United States at birth. As to children born out of the United States to alien parents, Congress provided through its naturalization acts that those children or upon becoming adults could also become citizens of the United States but only after birth. So, as to these children, being born out of the United States to alien parents, Congress considered them, like it considered children born in the United States to alien parents, as citizens of the United States only as of after birth. So we can see that it was not the place of birth that gave a child the best citizenship advantage, but rather whether he or she was born to U.S. citizen parents.

This Congressional scheme exhausts all the possibilities of the children that Congress naturalized, either at birth or after birth. The only children that Congress did not include in its naturalization acts as needing naturalization either at birth or after birth were children born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents. It therefore follows a fortiori that these children were the natural born citizens, for they did not need naturalization either at birth or after birth.

So there you have your answer as to who were not the naturalized citizens and who therefore were the natural born citizens. These were children born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

ajtelles said...

We're getting there...

Slartibartfast, your short and cordial response April 4, 2014 at 5:05 AM is getting the Obama-birthers closer to the original intent of the original birthers, the 1787 Founders, Framers, the 1788-1790 Ratifiers, and the 1789 Electoral College Implementers.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "Art,

>> "Your continued harping about "only one citizen parent"
>> "is clearly a poor attempt to conflate
>> "President Obama's eligibility with that of Rafael Cruz."


Nope. While it is accurate that both BHO and Sen. Cruz had only one U.S. citizen parent at their birth, conflation is not implicit in pointing out that the 1787 original intent of "natural born Citizen" implicitly included the 'higher hurdle' of TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents and NOT only ONE U.S. citizen parent.

Yes, it's accurate to say that the Obama-birther meme and the Cruz-birther meme have one thing in common, only ONE U.S. citizen parent, but the John Jay inspired and prescient Article II Section 1 Clause 5 implicit "higher hurdle" requires TWO U.S. citizen parents in addition to birth ONLY on U.S. soil (all jurisdiction included).

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "While both are eligible, it is for entirely different reasons.

Nope. Both are not eligible, for only ONE reason. And I say that even about my own favorite common sense conservative U.S. Senator, Rafael Edward 'Ted' Cruz, from my own state of Texas, in which state I was a precinct judge in the March, 2014 Texas primary.

Both Pres. BHO and Sen. Cruz do not meet the John Jay "higher hurdle" because both were NOT born on U.S. soil (all jurisdiction included) to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "Questioning President Obama's eligibility is ridiculous on its face while an argument could be made against Mr. Cruz although it would ultimately be unsuccessful."

Nope. It is ridiculous to implicitly and tacitly assert, as Obama-birthers do, that birth on U.S. soil to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is a 'higher hurdle' than birth on U.S. soil to TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "As to the asterisk in my comment, the citizenship of children born outside the US to citizen parents is due to statutes and the parents must satisfy the appropriate statutory requirements."

>> "For instance, Rafael Cruz's mother satisfied the requirements while Dr. Dunham wouldn't have unless she was considered unmarried due to her husband's bigamy."


Yep. Naturalization statutes are important to consider, but they do not affect the original intent of Article II.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "Fortunately for President Obama, he was born in Hawai'i so it isn't a relevant issue."

Yep. Unfortunately for Pres. Obama and Obama-birthers, the alleged birth in Hawaii, even if true, does not meet the John Jay 'higher hurdle' implicit in Article II, TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents.

- - - - - - - - - -

Why is the 1787 John Jay 'higher hurdle' that is implicit in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 so important?

Well, just because the Democratic 'GUY,' aka 'YOUR GUY,' managed to 'OCCUPY America' and the oval office with subterfuge and obfuscation, does NOT mean that the Republican 'GUY,' aka 'MY GUY,' should try to 'OCCUPY America' and the oval office the SAME way.

John Jay's 'higher hurdle,' my word, not Jay's, was prescient.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Carlyle said...

Mario -

With all due respect, don't you think this has gone on long enough.

You have been an excellent and patient teacher but all the students who are capable of learning have "done been learned".

Your website is piling up with "dirt" and it makes it hard for people who come here to find "diamonds".

I would like to return to something I have said before many times. The only interesting arguments and analyses are from people who are not trying to pound square pegs into round holes. I only care what an objective observer without an agenda would conclude. Trying to bend facts and analysis to allow your guy to win is a particularly despicable practice.

We may never know EXACTLY what The Framers meant by the phrase NBC, but it is obvious that they went to all the trouble because they meant it to be exclusionary rather than inclusionary.

So for a start, you could get rid of vast amounts of "dirt" by refusing to publish anybody promoting an inclusionary interpretation.

Finally - It is painfully obvious that parentage is the key. Probably both, but if only one, it must be the father. There is perhaps legitimate debate as to what role the location of birth plays into this. That is all. The rest is pure poppycock.

SIGH

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Carlyle,

You said:

“Finally - It is painfully obvious that parentage is the key. Probably both, but if only one, it must be the father.“

+++++

At the Founding, there was not mixed allegiance and citizenship for parents. The reference to the father was only to convey the means by which both parents became citizens (the wife, like the children, followed the condition of the husband/father). But the point is that they were both either citizens or aliens.

The reality of both parents being either citizens or aliens is confirmed by the early naturalization acts (only provided for naturalization to children born out of the United States if both parents were citizens), Minor v. Happersett (1875), and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (both only provided for scenarios where both parents were either citizens or aliens). Also, it was not until the Cable Act of 1922 that wives were able to have their own allegiance and citizenship separate from their husbands. After the act went into effect and wives could have a different citizenship from their husbands, Congress introduced into its naturalization acts the rule of one or two U.S. citizen parents applicable to children born out of the United States. But surely, the Cable Act could not nor did it amend the Constitution as to the requirement that a child be born in the country to two U.S. citizen parents in order for the child to be a natural born citizen.

You also said:

“There is perhaps legitimate debate as to what role the location of birth plays into this. That is all. The rest is pure poppycock.”

+++++

Apart from Minor telling us that a natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, an analysis of the early naturalization acts leaves no doubt that to be a natural born citizen, a child had to not only be born to U.S. citizen parents, but also born within the jurisdiction of the United States. What evidence do you have which casts any doubt on that?

Anonymous said...

" Whether or not the law has or will continue to treat corporations as "persons" in particular legal contexts, there is clearly an established legal difference between the rights of "natural persons," and those of "artificial persons.""

"A human being is a natural person, and thus possesses the full scope of inalienable rights as articulated in the Declaration of Independence and detailed in the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution."

"A corporation is an abstract and artificial construct, a mere "creature of the law."
"[with only] artificial personhood".

Natural persons, and artificial persons, are twin-like to Natural citizens and artificial citizens via law, -but with both being human.

But only one is natural. The other is a construct of the law. No citizen whose American nationality is the product of law is eligible to be President.
They may be citizens artificially but not naturally.
The law cannot naturally transmit anything. It cannot make anything. All it can do is acknowledge what is and recognize what has become.

A foreigner has become am American via the Oath of Allegiance & Renunciation. Nothing can reverse that except having lied.

The government does no make it so. The person makes it so by his oath. The power is in the pledging and binding of the oath, not the law. Bound by oath = bound by honor.

Just like marriage vows. If you speak them then you are married, with or without someone pronouncing it to be so.

The vows marry two souls, and the citizenship vow marries a foreigner to America.
There is no provision of government power to make it so other than administering the oath. That is the power behind naturalization.

It makes new "natural citizens", just as does the 14th Amendment, but that natural citizenship is in fact artificial fiction-of-law citizenship, and not citizenship by birth.
nash

Unknown said...

I have read what President Madison wrote as publius concerning the james mcclure citizenship case so even though he was a citizen of the state of Virginia he was not a citizen of the US until alien father naturalised. If he became a citizen of the US after adoption he would be eligible for Congress but not CiC. Children of aliens if dwelling within the US became citizens after parents naturalised. Citizens only, not natural born citizens. Hamilton reccomended citizen of the states at time of adoption be eligible but it was voted down. Maybe sfast can explain why the Founders wanted a foreign citizen at birth to be CiC of US Army. The NBC clause was put in to prevent that...if General of the Armies of the US George Washington came back there would be hell to pay for this blatant violation of Article 2

Anonymous said...

Slarti burped: "There is nothing in the writings of the Founders that suggests that a native birth requirement would fail to meet the standard of security that the Founders sought."

Question: What founders' writings exist discussing a "standard of security"?
What security are they known to have sought?
If there's no writings, what presumption can one make without error on the dangerous side?

As I point out in part 3 of "400 Years of Bastardized Citizenship Ideas" (pt. 1 now online) your presumption was very costly when made by Indira Gandhi. Her Prime Minister Protection Service native-born guard failed to provide the "security" you are so quick to offer to the US President.

He was not a natural born member of her ethnic group and so he chose to "settled" some ethnic scores with her using his machine gun. So much for her egalitarianism of inclusiveness. RIP

THAT is just what you are advocating for America. But the Secret Service isn't buying it. Nor is the nuclear weapons command authority. Nor did the British entrust their crucial military command posts and secret intelligence positions to native-born subjects who were labeled as natural born subjects, but weren't.
No one was given those posts who was not born of an Englishman.

And no one is allowed to guard the President or control nuclear weapons who is not a natural born citizen, i.e., born of and raised by American parents.
Those who write the rules for security clearances know the difference between the native-born and the natural citizens of America.
And they enforce the rules by rejecting those with alienage. They can't let the President end up like Indira Gandhi, -as you would be willing to risk.

Anonymous said...

The Brain-Dead stance of the obamunists:
"Any person, -including every son born within US borders of any alien or any background, -or a natural born citizen... shall be eligible...

How's that for security folks! Wouldn't you just love and feel secure about a Sky Marshall with such a stringent background?

Classified / Security Clearance Guidelines:

Guideline B: Foreign Influence

The Concern:

Having close ties with individuals who are not citizens of the United States could create the potential for foreign influence that could result in the compromise of classified information.
Contacts with citizens of other countries or financial interests in other countries could also create vulnerability to coercion, exploitation, or pressure.

Conditions that could raise a security concern and may be disqualifying include:

An immediate family member, or a person to whom the individual has close ties of affection or obligation, is a citizen of, resident of, or present in, a foreign country;

Sharing living quarters with a person or persons, regardless of their citizenship status, if the potential for adverse foreign influence exists;

Relatives, cohabitants, or associates who are connected with any foreign government;
Failing to report, where required, associations with foreign nationals;

Obama's background SCREAMS: SECURITY RISK!!!

Anonymous said...

Both Obots & nativist Birthers face multiple conundrums of conflicting facts.

FACT 1. By the 1866 Civil Rights Act, those born subject to a foreign power are not citizens.

FACT 2. U.S. born children of foreign ambassadors and foreign guests are subject to their father's foreign government, -just as he is.

FACT 3. Those subject to a foreign government are NOT subject to the U.S. government.

FACT 4. The U.S. military draft laws of the Civil War exempted those foreigners subject to a foreign power, whether they were immigrants or their unnaturalized native-born sons.

FACT 5. The U.S. Government did not recognize dual-citizenship nor dual allegiance. It was akin to bigamy. One could not be responsible for the defense of two different nations. That is unnatural and was unacceptable.

FACT 6. American families were unitarian units with a single nationality; that of the father.

FACT 7. Wherever an American father's children were born, their nationality was inherited from him and was none other than the family nationality.

FACT 8. No U.S. Ambassador, with children born in multiple countries, had a family of divided nationalities because they all had his nationality.

FACT 9. No American, with children born in other countries, had a family of divided nationalities because they were all his nationality from the perspective of the U.S. Government. See Fact 5.

FACT 10. The nationality laws of foreign nations could not confer a second allegiance or recognized nationality to one born of an American father. An American by blood was first and last an American, -unless his father never lived in the United States and was not born there either.

FACT 11. Every other son of every American father was born with a birthright that held open every office in America to him.

FACT 12. The unalienable right by the American blood of every American son was the qualification to one day be eligible to serve as President.

Taken as a whole, these facts can't be refuted nor disputed. They pop every imaginary eligibility balloon.

Nash

Anonymous said...

The high court in the Wong case produced a very limited expansion of the original meaning of the 14th Amendment's nationality clause.
They expanded it to count as subject to U.S. sovereignty children who had previously been excluded by the national government.
They ended the division between jus soli permitting States and the federal policy.

But they did so in a strictly limited manner applying only to children of domiciled members of American society; immigrants of Chinese descent.
They knew that the Attorney General's job was to interpret their opinion for application by the executive branch, and that he would rightfully extrapolate it to include children of other races.

Why would they assume that? Because it was a basic American principle that all who were fully CITIZENS (adult men only) ARE EQUAL.

The 14th Amendment made discrimination unconstitutional, so the policy regarding male citizens was codified as law.

There was no allowance by those who abolished nobility and aristocracy for unequal classes of citizens to exist, like a White Citizens class, and a Black Citizens class.

There was also no Natural-ized Citizens class. There was only one class; and that was natural citizens.
Via the process and oath of natural-ization, foreigners joined the only class of equal citizens recognized by American principles; natural citizens.
Also added by the Wong opinion were those thenceforth deemed to be State and national citizens although alien-born; namely the native-born children of immigrants.

They did not become natural citizens until they were born on U.S. soil.
Before then they were alien. Then at birth they became citizens by law.
If someone was charged with manslaughter for killing an immigrant woman's unborn child, he could not be viewed nor charged for killing an American child because U.S. citizenship did not attach until birth.

Nash continues...

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You asserted that the Court in Minor said that Congress had the power to make natural born citizens."

I had written, "Minor notes that Congress was within its constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were citizens." You claimed that I invented stuff when saying that. To show you were not telling the truth, I quoted the Minor Opinion noting what I said they did:

Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided "that any alien, being a free white person," might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, and that the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under twenty-one years of age at the time of such naturalization, should also be considered citizens of the United States, and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. -- Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), at 168.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"To prove you wrong I said two things: Minor did not say Congress had such power. To support my statement I also said that the issue of such Congress’s power was not before the Court. I did not say that you said that the issue of Congress’s power was before the Court."

You falsely accused me of inventing stuff. I did not invent that the Court noted Congress was within its Constitution power because they did: "Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization [...]" I did not invent that the power of Congress was before the court because I did not say that power of Congress was before the court. So what did I invent?

Anonymous said...

A child of immigrants was not conceived as an American but as an alien.

U.S. citizenship was not imputed until that alien child emerged into the American world on American soil.
Only then did citizenship attach by operation of federal court opinion and an Attorney General interpretation of their opinion.

Both followed ancient custom and not eternal principle.
By eternal principle, off-spring can be nothing other that what the parents are that produce them. That is the immutable law of nature; aka Natural Law.

Assigning nationality based on birth location was man's law that emerged from the Calvin case, -not from Nature's God. It was incapable of producing an actual natural citizen.

U.S. corporations have been deemed by the Supreme Court to be "legal persons" as well as U.S. citizens. Are they natural citizens or "artificial citizens" as so labeled?

Were they born as members of the natural citizen class or merely made as members of the artificial legal-fiction-citizens class?

Are not man-made artificially-produced citizens merely deemed to be fellow "natural citizens" by legal fiction?

Just as artificial persons known as corporations are "artificial citizens", so are those described by the federal government as "foreign stock", -regardless of being real persons,

Combined, they constitute the demographic class of un-natural, law-made "Americans", none of whom had American parents.

No such citizen fits the description that comes from outside of the realm of law, -that comes from the real world of sociological distinction, namely; natural born citizen.

As such, no man-made, jus soli, 14th Amendment, Supreme Court, artificial, legal fiction citizen is eligible to be President of these United States because they are not "natural" born citizens (-even if born in the Lincoln bedroom).

Nash obama--nation.com

Anonymous said...

The Attorney General (John Griggs), who construed the Supreme Court's construence of the 14th Amendment, (in order to apply it to federal policy & action) made a gigantic error or a deliberate distortion of the limited reach of the high court's opinion.

He created a class of citizens that did not exist and did so out of thin air.

The legality of classifying citizens by race ended with the 14th Amendment civil rights protections against discrimination. Thus if children of Chinese immigrants were citizens, therefore children of all immigrants were also citizens.

Although the citizenship of European immigrants may have been contested by no one, it was not established by any federal law or court opinion.
The Wong opinion resulted in the tail (the native-born Chinese) wagging the dog (the native-born of Europeans) by the extrapolation of the Attorney General that the court's opinion made the citizenship of both legally established.

Plus, just as Chinese children were equal to European children, so also were immigrant children equal to American children by legal fiction.

BUT!!! -a class of children who were NOT equal to Americans were those born of foreign ambassadors & foreign guests. Both subject to their own homeland.

But that idiot A.G. split the unsplittable and declared children of guests to be Americans anyway!

He understood they were born on U.S. soil, but he was totally ignorant (like the Supreme Court, but worse) of what it means to be "subject to the jurisdiction" of a government.

He failed to grasp that such children are not "subject" and thus are not citizens; -much less natural born citizens. So thanks to him, they now can be President!!??? finis.

Nash

Anonymous said...

Slarti prevariated thusly:

"-a citizen and a subject are analogous terms. They both represent membership in a nation or a state. But that is as far as the analogy goes, for each sovereign country or state is free to determine the means by which one becomes one of its members."

You fail to grasp what "ONE" means. Does it include dogs? How about cats? How about the dead? How about those who are ALREADY members?

How about those BORN AS MEMBERS? FREE MEN retain forever their rights of membership, and that RIGHT is inherited by their progeny.

Only FOREIGNERS are subject to the whims of government. NOT NATIVES you numbskull.


In fact, today their are countries like Greece for which blood descent is the rule and areas, such as all of the Americas where jus soli prevails.

Your mind-set leads you astray. You don't understand the truth behind your word "prevails".
How does it prevail? Does it prevail over the eternal law of nature by which one belongs to their own, to their own kind, their own people & nation?

That is not even possible! All it does is exist as a recognizable physical factor by which one's nationality can be assumed and ascribed.
It exists solely for children of outsiders born within the nation and allowed by law to be members. That is NOT prevailing.


nash; continued...

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Concerning you point about coming up with 'naturalization documents' for someone born in the United States, I have already provided my answer to your Obot colleague on this thread. Simply stated, no such documents were needed and therefore none exist."

No, you did not go that far when you answered our Obot colleague Adam Kennedy. You hold -- correct me if I'm wrong on this -- that from the time of the adoption of the Constitution until shortly after the Civil War, children born in the U.S. to alien parents were born aliens in need of naturalization.

There is no record of such a native-born person naturalizing.

Your previous explanation was that minor children were naturalized upon the naturalization of their parents and women who married citizens were implicitly naturalized, and thus had no naturalization records of their own. That covers many.

Now you tell us, "no such documents were needed and therefore none exist." That is a truly incredible claim, Mr. Apuzzo. In all that time, every single child born here to aliens was covered without needing naturalization of his own, or was never a citizen at all.

Have you thought that through? If *any* alien parents had a son in the U.S., and did not naturalize by the time their son was 21, then that son remained an alien for life. If he subsequently had children in the U.S., they were the children of an alien and thus, according to you, not citizens. Those children would never be naturalized by the naturalization of their parents, and without any naturalization record of their own -- you tell us none exist -- any males among them were also aliens for life. The cycle would continue as long as the family had sons to carry its name.

Anonymous said...

Slarti's false logic continued thusly:

Axiom 1: All citizens are either "natural born" or "naturalized".

That premise is false. There are three kinds of citizens. 1. By blood. 2. by oath. 3. by law.

Those who acquire citizenship by law are neither natural citizens by blood/ descent/ inheritance, nor by the oath of Allegiance & Renunciation.
They are law-made citizens only; -not nature-made, and not oath-made.

Repeal the law and no more such citizens would exist even though native born.


Axiom 2: The 14th Amendment is declaratory of the law under the Constitution as originally written.

You fool. What "law"? The King's law? State law? Federal law? Constitutional citizenship law (which didn't even exist)?

Axiom 3: All persons in a country save foreign officials and enemy soldiers are subject to its jurisdiction

Says who, and by what incontestable divine authority? By what LOGIC? By what PRINCIPLE? crickets...

Only by taking the lazy man's mental, conceptual shortcut requiring no contemplative thought whatsoever was that thought ever uttered.

It fails to take into account the rare additional exception of women who were not English, were not immigrants, were not domiciled in England but only visiting. Their husbands were subject to their own king and country, to which they and their child would shortly return, and perhaps never step foot in England again.

Their child was a subject of its father's king, -not the king of England, -regardless of his bastardized policy and the simpleton sycophants promulgating it.


finis. A.Nash

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

Anyone with the slightest bit of understanding of how jurisprudence works (which, I admit, does not include you) knows that the applicability of a ruling does not depend on the specifics of the case at bar, but rather on the prerequisites necessary to apply the reasoning used.

This gets you both coming and going as the SCOTUS made clear that the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction" included people in the situation of Mr. Obama, Sr. and the action of the 14th Amendment could not have naturalized Mr. Wong (and hence President Obama) because that would have violated the Chinese Exclusion Act.

Slartibartfast said...

Leo,

Which citation should be afforded greater credibility?

A comment made under a pseudonym that the President of the United States, as well as others, had used more than a decade before.

---or---

James Madison, The Founders’ Constitution Volume 2, Article 1, Section 2, Clause 2, Document 6 (1789)

Slartibartfast said...

Mario said:

"The key to understanding what a natural born citizen is lies in understanding the meaning that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers gave to a “natural born citizen” versus a “naturalized citizen.” Simply, anyone who they considered to be a naturalized citizen was not a natural born citizen."

Yes, that was my first axiom. I would point out that this implies that Mr. Wong was a natural born citizen as he could not, by law, have been naturalized. From there, a SCOTUS statement I quoted above makes it clear that Barack Obama Sr. was under the jurisdiction of the US (regardless of what the voices in his head tell Mr. Nash), and that's the whole ballgame.

Maybe you should have stuck with desperately repeating that Minor says that a natural born citizen was a child born on the soil to citizen parents and hoping none of your readers understand that your statement doesn't follow from what the SCOTUS in Minor said: that children born on the soil to citizen parents were natural born. I can't believe that you don't understand that a statement doesn't imply its converse, but the only other explanation is that you're being disingenuous.

I guess I really shouldn't be surprised, though. ignoring my formal reasoning was a dead giveaway that you're not interested in honest discussion. There are only three responses to such an argument---at least for anyone who has integrity. You can accept the claim as true---and we all know that there is no standard by which birthers will accept that they are wrong (which, ironically, prevents them from being right most of the time). You can find an error of logic in the reasoning---and we both know that there isn't one. Or you can dispute the axioms---something you are most likely loth to do because I made them very specific statements supported by impeccable authority, so you can't use your standard straw man tactic nor can you find equal authority (or even much lesser authority) which contradicts those statements.

Let's revisit my axioms:

Axiom 1: All citizens are either "natural born" or "naturalized".

Axiom 2: The 14th Amendment is declaratory of the law under the Constitution as originally written.

Axiom 3: All persons in a country save foreign officials and enemy soldiers are subject to its jurisdiction.

Since any conclusion of formal logic is only as strong as the axioms which underlie it, the only question is whether or not these axioms are true. Even though Mario is unwilling or unable to question any of these assertions, it still behooves us to investigate their support.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont


Axiom 1: All citizens are either "natural born" or "naturalized".

This has now been confirmed by the highest possible authority: Mario himself.

Axiom 2: The 14th Amendment is declaratory of the law under the Constitution as originally written.

This is true according to Mr. Binney---pretty much the guy who wrote the 14th Amendment.

Axiom 3: All persons in a country save foreign officials and enemy soldiers are subject to its jurisdiction.

The SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark had this to say:

112 U.S. 1114.
The decision in Elk v. Wilkins concerned only members of the Indian tribes within the United States, and had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian, African or Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.

The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, "All persons born in the United States" by the addition "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country. Calvin's Case, 7 Rep. 1, 18b; Cockburn on Nationality, 7; Dicey Conflict of Laws, 177; Inglis v. Sailors' Snug Harbor, 3 Pet. 99, 28 U. S. 155; 2 Kent Com. 39, 42.


Let's boil this down:

The decision in Elk v. Wilkins had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of African descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.

The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in the words, "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," [was] to exclude the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country.


Which is exactly what Axiom 3 says.

Where does this leave us? If you want to dispute my axioms, then you must either:

1) Explain why your own statement was wrong in the face of an "admission against interests" (even then you would have to explain why the SCOTUS in Minor was wrong in a place where they expressed certainty and right in a place where they expressed doubt).

2) Explain why the chief architect of the 14th Amendment didn't understand its function. I would also note that the conclusion that "President Obama is a natural born citizen" only depends on the other two axioms, not this one.

3) Get the SCOTUS to overturn Wong Kim Ark at least to the point of specifically contradicting this very clear passage (which wouldn't make President Obama retroactively ineligible in any case).

Short of showing that my reasoning is fallacious (which you and I both know is not possible), these are the only honest options to dispute my conclusion.

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth.

Mario... loses.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

You quote Wong Kim Ark:

The decision in Elk v. Wilkins concerned only members of the Indian tribes within the United States, and had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian, African or Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.

The real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, "All persons born in the United States" by the addition "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country. Calvin's Case, 7 Rep. 1, 18b; Cockburn on Nationality, 7; Dicey Conflict of Laws, 177; Inglis v. Sailors' Snug Harbor, 3 Pet. 99, 28 U. S. 155; 2 Kent Com. 39, 42.

I make three points:

First, there are many misstatements and omissions by Justice Gray in his opinion. Here are two:

No. 1: Calvin’s case has been misunderstood since it was published in 1608. Justice Gray and legal scholars look at Calvin’s case as confirming the rule of jus soli. I look at it as a case that in essence arrived at its result through a sort of jus sanguinis. Calvin was born in Scotland, not in England. (So much for jus soli). He was born neither subject to the laws nor the government of England. (Again, so much for jus soli). The English Parliament refused to naturalize him as an English subject. (Again, what happened to jus soli?). So, the English court and Lord Coke naturalized him at birth as an English “natural-born subject.” (I thought we did not need naturalization if jus soli was sufficient to make one a natural-born subject). But it was not the place of birth (jus soli) that made Calvin what Lord Coke called an English “natural-born subject.” Rather, it was Calvin’s relationship and natural allegiance owed to a King (Lord Coke said it was a relationship and natural allegiance based on the law of nature) who was not only the King of Scotland, but who also became the King of England before Calvin was born. (It sounds more like jus sanguinis to me.) Hence, by analogy, it was as though the natural King of England was Calvin’s blood father and as though Calvin had been born to a father who was an English subject (the King) which by the law of nature made Calvin owe natural allegiance to the King, for which he received in return the King’s protection, and which made Calvin an English “natural-born subject.” So, is Calvin’s case really a case about jus soli or is it really a case about natural allegiance owed to the natural King of England who imposed himself into Calvin’s life as his English sanguinis (natural) father who protected him from the moment of birth? I think that the case is about nothing more than the latter.

No. 2: Gray cites Inglis as though the decision supports him. What Gray did was refer to Justice Story’s minority opinion there which was rejected by the majority of the Court. In fact, Justice Story in the case of Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830), changed his position that citizenship was established by jus soli and adopted the majority opinion of Inglis that it was established by jus sanguinis. Justice Gray did the same with Dred Scott, quoting the dissent from a case that disqualified slaves as citizens only because it said they were not part of and therefore did not descend from the original citizens nor could they be naturalized under the then-naturalization laws of Congress.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Second, you said:

“Let's boil this down: The decision in Elk v. Wilkins had no tendency to deny citizenship to children born in the United States of foreign parents of African descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.”

-----

You intentionally left out parents of Caucasian and Mongolian descent in your question so as to hide the fact that yours is a losing argument. If as you and other Obots contend “children born in the United States of foreign parents of Caucasian . . . [and] Mongolian descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country” were and are natural born citizens, then why would there even exist a debate on whether the Fourteenth Amendment was designed to deny them citizenship? Clearly, the amendment protected rights. It would be foolish to argue that it took rights away. The only logical answer is that such children were not only not natural born citizens, but also not citizens. If there should exist a question of whether they were citizens, then they surely could not be natural born citizens which never presented any doubts as to their status. You recognize this contradiction and weakness in your position and tried to hide it by focusing only on the question of the citizenship status of “children born in the United States of foreign parents of . . . African. . . descent not in the diplomatic service of a foreign country.” You intentionally left out of your question parents of Caucasian and Mongolian descent so as to hide the fact that there was a question of whether their U.S.-born children were citizens which destroys you claim that such children were and are natural born citizens.

Third, you also say that there is a need to overturn Wong Kim Ark in order to arrive at my definition of a natural born citizen. This is false. I will admit that I maintain that Justice Gray committed various errors in Wong Kim Ark in how he reached his conclusion that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. But Justice Gray’s errors in Wong Kim Ark only go to how the Fourteenth Amendment and “subject to the jurisdiction” should be interpreted. That is only a question that affects who should be a “citizen” by birth in the United States. It is not a question of who should be a “natural born citizen” which question was asked and answered by the Framers, who according to Minor v. Happersett (1875) answered that question by applying the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. Minor said that, apart from the original citizens who acquired their status by adhering to the American Revolution, under that common law they defined a common law citizen and natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Despite the various errors committed by Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark, his opinion did not alter the meaning of a natural born citizen. So, there is no need for the U.S. Supreme Court to overturn Wong Kim Ark in relation to the question of who is a natural born citizen.

Finally, on your point that I have not addressed your axioms, I have. I explained to you that your entire argument is wrong because it conflates a citizen with a natural born citizen. You have not presented any evidence for what a natural born citizen is. Rather, your evidence is all about what a citizen is. Additionally, it would be much more devastating for you if I took the time to show you how each one of your axioms is wrong either as stated or wrong in your application or both.

MichaelN said...

Kev, you really must learn to acknowledge and accept the truth gracefully.

You have the problem solved if you look at both the Minor and Wong Kim Ark opinions.

Here I will point out the parts you continue to avoid addressing in your pathetic denial of the truth.

The SCOTUS majority in the Minor case recognized a type of born US citizenship which did not rely on the 14th Amendment

Ergo: the Scotus recognized TWO types of born citizenship, i.e. those who were such per the 14th Amendment, and those (like Virginia Minor) who were held to be such WITHOUT reliance on the provisions of the 14th Amendment.

The court described such a born US citizen of Virginia's ilk, as a natural born citizen of the US.

The Minor court also said that the 14th Amendment did/does not say who shall be a natural born citizen of the US.

The Minor court also said that it gave credibility to doubts whether those who were native-born to non-citizen parents were citizens at all (let alone natural born citizens), by saying that the doubts had yet to be solved.

The WKA court cited to the Minor court's majority opinions (as pointed out above) WITHOUT OBJECTION and furthermore cited also to Binney's recognition of two type of born US citizens, where it was said that "the child of an alien, if born in the country is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen".

Ergo: the WKA court recognized the use of the term "natural born" was solely pertinent and exclusive to US citizen parents in matters of citizenship.

Wong Kim Ark was held to be a 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States", with the court's recognition that the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be a natural born citizen and also the court's recognition of TWO TYPES OF BORN US CITIZENS.

Kev, YOU LOSE!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

I of II

You said:

“By eternal principle, off-spring can be nothing other than what the parents are that produce them. That is the immutable law of nature; aka Natural Law.”

-----

This statement by you is based on your position that being a natural born citizen is only about a child being born to citizen parents (jus sanguinis) and nothing to do with place of birth (jus soli). You have repeatedly argued that being a natural born citizen is only about the citizenship of blood parents (which you call natural) and nothing to do with borders (which you call “artificial”). I have already discredited your position with historical and legal evidence, reason, and logic. But allow me to show you further by a simple hypothetical how wrong you are.

Let us assume that a child (let us call him Jack) is born in China to U.S. citizen parents. According to you, Jack is a natural born citizen of the United States. Let us assume that Jack stays in China and reaches the age of majority. Having reached the age of majority, Jack marries a woman (also an adult and who we will call Jill) who was born in China under the same circumstances as Jack’s (born to U.S. citizen parents). According to you, Jill is also a natural born citizen of the United States. Jack and Jill have a child who is born in China and according to you is a natural born citizen of the United States. Let’s call him Kim Ark. Jack and Jill never step foot in the United States and eventually die in China. Repeat the same process that applied to Jack and Jill to their son, Kim Ark. Repeat the process for 500 years (or more or less). Neither Jack nor Jill nor any of his or her decedents that came into being for those 500 years (all natural born citizens of the United States according to you) ever stepped foot in the United States. Then one day, one of those decedents (let’s call him Amabo) decides to come and live in the United States (according to you Amabo does not even have to immigrate since he is a natural born citizen). He arrives when he is 21 years old. He resides continuously in the United States for 14 years. So, based on your logic, Amabo is not only at least 35 years old and at least a resident within the United States for at least 14 years, but also a natural born citizen of the United States. Again based on your blood theory and logic, Amabo would be constitutionally eligible to be President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the Military. But does your blood theory make sense? Do you really think that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers intended that Amabo, having been the only person from generations of family before him to ever step foot in the United States and having entered the United States for the first time at the age of 21, should be eligible to be President and Commander? How can you continue to defend your position that place of birth is not relevant to making one a natural born citizen in light of such compelling facts and circumstances which demonstrate the absurdity of your position?

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

You said:

“Assigning nationality based on birth location was man's law that emerged from the Calvin case.”

-----

Like I just told Slartibartfast, Calvin’s case has been misunderstood since it was published in 1608. Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark and legal scholars look at Calvin’s case as confirming the rule of jus soli. I look at it as a case that in essence arrived at its result through a sort of jus sanguinis. Calvin was born in Scotland, not in England. (So much for jus soli). He was born neither subject to the laws nor the government of England. (Again, so much for jus soli). The English Parliament refused to naturalize him as an English subject. (Again, what happened to jus soli?). So, the English court and Lord Coke naturalized him at birth as an English “natural-born subject.” (I thought we did not need naturalization if jus soli was sufficient to make one a natural-born subject). But it was not the place of birth (jus soli) that made Calvin what Lord Coke called an English “natural-born subject.” Rather, it was Calvin’s relationship and natural allegiance owed to a King (Lord Coke said it was a relationship and natural allegiance based on the law of nature) who was not only the King of Scotland, but who also became the King of England before Calvin was born. (It sounds more like jus sanguinis to me.) Hence, by analogy, it was as though the natural King of England was Calvin’s blood father and as though Calvin had been born to a father who was an English subject (the King) which by the law of nature made Calvin owe natural allegiance to the King, for which he received in return the King’s protection, and which made Calvin an English “natural-born subject.” So, is Calvin’s case really a case about jus soli or is it really a case about natural allegiance owed to the natural King of England who imposed himself into Calvin’s life as his English sanguinis (natural) father who protected him from the moment of birth? I think that the case is about nothing more than the latter.

You asked:

“Are not man-made artificially-produced citizens merely deemed to be fellow "natural citizens" by legal fiction?”

-----

Apart from the Third Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1795 changing the status to read “shall be considered to be citizens of the United States,” this is exactly what the First Congress did in the Naturalization Act of 1790 with children born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to U.S. citizen parents. It deemed them to be natural born citizens (“shall be considered as natural born citizens”). So, were those citizens not “man-made artificially-produced citizens?” Did not Congress declare them to be “considered as natural born citizens” through a naturalization law which created a legal fiction as to their birth status? I do not mean to suggest that I do not know the answers to these questions, for the answer is “yes.”

In light of what I have already explained on this blog and elsewhere and what I said above, why do you not simply admit that you have been wrong all along on considering the place of birth as irrelevant in the definition of a natural born citizen? Why do you not admit that the one and only universal and immutable definition of a natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth?

Finally, I am the one who wrote: “Of course a citizen and a subject are analogous terms. They both represent membership in a nation or a state. But that is as far as the analogy goes, for each sovereign country or state is free to determine the means by which one becomes one of its members.” See Mario Apuzzo April 3, 2014 at 8:05 AM. You erroneously said that Slartibartfast wrote it.

MichaelN said...

Kev, you really must learn to acknowledge and accept the truth gracefully.

You have the problem solved if you look at both the Minor and Wong Kim Ark opinions.

Here I will point out the parts you continue to avoid addressing in your pathetic denial of the truth.

The SCOTUS majority in the Minor case recognized a type of born US citizenship which did not rely on the 14th Amendment

Ergo: the Scotus recognized TWO types of born citizenship, i.e. those who were such per the 14th Amendment, and those (like Virginia Minor) who were held to be such WITHOUT reliance on the provisions of the 14th Amendment.

The court described such a born US citizen of Virginia's ilk, as a natural born citizen of the US.

The Minor court also said that the 14th Amendment did/does not say who shall be a natural born citizen of the US.

The Minor court also said that it gave credibility to doubts whether those who were native-born to non-citizen parents were citizens at all (let alone natural born citizens), by saying that the doubts had yet to be solved.

The WKA court cited to the Minor court's majority opinions (as pointed out above) WITHOUT OBJECTION and furthermore cited also to Binney's recognition of two type of born US citizens, where it was said that "the child of an alien, if born in the country is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen".

Ergo: the WKA court recognized the use of the term "natural born" was solely pertinent and exclusive to US citizen parents in matters of citizenship.

Wong Kim Ark was held to be a 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States", with the court's recognition that the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be a natural born citizen and also the court's recognition of TWO TYPES OF BORN US CITIZENS.

Kev, YOU LOSE!

ajtelles said...

1/4

Nine 'Lower Hurdle' Resolutions by Congress to Define-Redefine “Natural Born Citizen"

Mario, I know that you are already aware of the resolutions to redefine "natural born Citizen," but the effort, starting in 2003 and ending in 2008, suggests to this informed observer that there was a premeditated effort to position, aka to "frame" a possible 2008 aspirant for POTUS, so the effort which was initiated in 2003 and concluded in 2008, reveals that the Democratic Party altruistically came to the defense of Republican Party presidential candidate Senator John McCain from Arizona.

To mention the effort is not a conspiracy theory observation, but to do it with others, THAT is a conspiracy.

Go to each individual url link below, or see the resolutions at http://originalbirtherdocument19.blogspot.com/.

- - - - - - - - - -

#1 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/hjres59
H.J.Res. 59 (108th): Jun 11, 2003
108th Congress, 2003–2004

"Mr. SNYDER (for himself, Mr. ISSA, and Mr. FRANK of Massachusetts) introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary"

"JOINT RESOLUTION

"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 35 years, to be eligible to hold the offices of President and Vice President."

"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States after the date of its submission for ratification:
"‘Article --
"‘A person who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 35 years and who has been a resident within the United States for at least 14 years shall be eligible to hold the office of President or Vice President.’."
My comment -

The implicit and tacit understanding of the 108th Congress is that a 20th and 21st century "natural born Citizen" and a 20th and 21st century "citizen" are not the same thing, whether a "citizen" by birth on U.S. soil or birth on foreign soil not under US jurisdiction. See the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act, INA: ACT 301, Nationals and Citizens of the United States at Birth. Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401]. Paragraph (g) applies to Sen. Cruz, and paragraph (a) applies to Sen. Obama, before usurping the oval office with subterfuge.

- - - - - - - - - -

#2 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/hjres67
H.J.Res. 67 (108th): Sep 03, 2003
108th Congress, 2003–2004

Mr. CONYERS introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

"JOINT RESOLUTION
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 20 years, to be eligible to hold the Office of President."

"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein),

"SECTION 1. CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.
"The following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States:

"‘Article --
‘"A person who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 20 years shall be eligible to hold the Office of President.’."

ajtelles said...

2/4

Nine 'Lower Hurdle' Resolutions by Congress to Define-Redefine “Natural Born Citizen"

My comment -

This means that even a 20 year old Muslim fundamentalist, aka, a "stealth" extremist Islamic jihadist who believes that the Quran contains the actual, verbatim, words of their god Allah, words which condemn "people of the book" Christians as misguided and Jews as pigs, could qualify to be eligible by age 40 and pursue stealth jihad from the White House someday.

This September 03, 2003 proposed resolution by Representative Conyers is definitely a "lower hurdle" beneficial to his Islamic constituency in Michigan that would weaken the Executive Office and the Office of Commander-in-Chief.

- - - - - - - - - -

#3 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/s2128
S. 2128 (108th): Feb 25, 2004
108th Congress, 2003–2004

"Mr. NICKLES (for himself, Ms. LANDRIEU, and Mr. INHOFE) introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

"A BILL
"To define the term ‘natural born Citizen’ as used in the Constitution of the United States to establish eligibility for the Office of President.

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
"SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
"This Act may be cited as the ‘Natural Born Citizen Act’.
"SEC. 2. DEFINITION OF ‘NATURAL BORN CITIZEN’.
"(a) IN GENERAL- Congress finds and declares that the term ‘natural born Citizen’ in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States means--

"(1) any person born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof; and

"(2) any person born outside the United States--
"(A) who derives citizenship at birth from a United States citizen parent or parents pursuant to an Act of Congress; or
"(B) who is adopted by 18 years of age by a United States citizen parent or parents who are otherwise eligible to transmit citizenship to a biological child pursuant to an Act of Congress.

(b) UNITED STATES- In this section, the term ‘United States’, when used in a geographic sense, means the several States of the United States and the District of Columbia.

My comment -

John Jay is STILL spinning in his grave over the absolutesy atrocious "lower hurdle" language proposed by the two conservative Republicans, Sen. Don Nickles from the Pres. Reagan era, and Sen. Jim Inhofe from the Pres. Clinton era.

Don Nickles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Nickles
Jim Inhofe - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senator_Inhofe

- - - - - - - - - -

#4 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/108/hjres104
H.J.Res. 104 (108th): Sep 15, 2004
108th Congress, 2003–2004

"Mr. ROHRABACHER introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

"JOINT RESOLUTION
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who is not a natural born citizen of the United States but has been a United States citizen for at least 20 years.

"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:

"‘Article --
"‘A person who is a citizen of the United States, who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 20 years, and who is otherwise eligible to hold the Office of the President, is not ineligible to hold that Office by reason of not being a native born citizen of the United States.’."

ajtelles said...

4/4

Nine 'Lower Hurdle' Resolutions by Congress to Define-Redefine “Natural Born Citizen"

"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states within seven years after the date of its submission for ratification:

"`Article --

"`A person who is a citizen of the United States, who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 20 years, and who is otherwise eligible to hold the Office of the President, is not ineligible to hold that Office by reason of not being a native born citizen of the United States.'."

My comment -

Again with a "lower hurdle" resolution language, and "natural born citizen" being replaced with "native born citizen" and the same ambiguous language as before.

The same "lower hurdle" gobbledgook.

What's up with the "lower hurdle" ambiguous language, GHWBush era conservative Republican Representative Dana Rohrabacher?

- - - - - - - - - -

#7 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hjres42
H.J.Res. 42 (109th): Apr 14, 2005
109th Congress, 2005–2006

"Mr. SNYDER (for himself and Mr. SHAYS) introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

"JOINT RESOLUTION
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 35 years, to be eligible to hold the offices of President and Vice President.

"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States after the date of its submission for ratification:

"`Article --

"`A person who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 35 years and who has been a resident within the United States for at least 14 years shall be eligible to hold the office of President or Vice President.'.

My comment -

Ho hum, more lower hurdle" silliness by educated elected persons.

- - - - - - - - - -

#8 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/s2678
S. 2678 (110th): Feb 28, 2008
110th Congress, 2007–2009

"Mrs. MCCASKILL introduced the following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

"A BILL
"To clarify the law and ensure that children born to United States citizens while serving overseas in the military are eligible to become President.

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

"SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

"This Act may be cited as the `Children of Military Families Natural Born Citizen Act'.

"SEC. 2. DEFINITION OF `NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'.

"Congress finds and declares that the term `natural born Citizen' in article II, section 1, clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States shall include: `Any person born to any citizen of the United States while serving in the active or reserve components of the United States Armed Forces'.

ajtelles said...

5/6

Nine 'Lower Hurdle' Resolutions by Congress to Define-Redefine “Natural Born Citizen"

My comment -"lower hurdle" chicanery, aka subterfuge, by a Democratic Senator from Missouri. Now, why would a Democratic Senator propose early in 2008 amending Article II Section 1 Clause 5 with a resolution that would benefit ONLY Arizona Republican Senator John McCain in the 2008 primary (see resolution #9 next) and NOT a Democratic presidential aspirant? That is not a conspiracy theory question, but to actually do it with others, THAT is a conspiracy.

Claire McCaskill - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claire_McCaskill

- - - - - - - - - -

#9 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/sres511
Res. 511 (110th): Apr 10, 2008
(110th Congress, 2007–2009

“IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

"April 10, 2008
"Mrs. MCCASKILL (for herself, Mr. LEAHY, Mr. OBAMA, Mr. COBURN, Mrs. CLINTON, and Mr. WEBB) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

"April 24, 2008
"Reported by Mr. LEAHY, without amendment

“April 30, 2008
"Considered and agreed to

"RESOLUTION
"Recognizing that John Sidney McCain, III, is a natural born citizen.

"Whereas the Constitution of the United States requires that, to be eligible for the Office of the President, a person must be a `natural born Citizen' of the United States;

"Whereas the term `natural born Citizen', as that term appears in Article II, Section 1, is not defined in the Constitution of the United States;

"Whereas there is no evidence of the intention of the Framers or any Congress to limit the constitutional rights of children born to Americans serving in the military nor to prevent those children from serving as their country's President;

"Whereas such limitations would be inconsistent with the purpose and intent of the `natural born Citizen' clause of the Constitution of the United States, as evidenced by the First Congress's own statute defining the term `natural born Citizen';

"Whereas the well-being of all citizens of the United States is preserved and enhanced by the men and women who are assigned to serve our country outside of our national borders;

"Whereas previous presidential candidates were born outside of the United States of America and were understood to be eligible to be President; and

"Whereas John Sidney McCain, III, was born to American citizens on an American military base in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936: Now, therefore, be it

"Resolved, That John Sidney McCain, III, is a `natural born Citizen' under Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution of the United States."

ajtelles said...

6/6

Nine 'Lower Hurdle' Resolutions by Congress to Define-Redefine “Natural Born Citizen"

My comment

See, the educated elected persons DO know what a "natural born Citizen" is even though nbC "is not defined in the Constitution ...," because the educated elected persons DO know what "... the purpose and intent of the 'natural born Citizen' clause," is because "... previous presidential candidates were born outside" of the U.S. "... and were understood to be eligible to be President," so that means that Republican Sen. John McCain is being promoted by 5 Democratic Senators (Claire McCaskill, Patrick Leahy, BHObama, Hillary Clinton, Jim Webb) and ONLY 1 Republican Senator (Tom Coburn) to promote ONLY the interests of the Republican Party in the 2008 primary without ANY thought, conspiriatoral or otherwise, and totally honest, sincere, altruistic (cough cough hack hack) about the benefit to the Democratic Party, REGARDLESS of WHO the Democratic candidate might be.

Yeah, right.

That is not a conspiracy theory observaton, but to ACTUALLY do it with others, THAT definitely IS a conspiracy.

Oklahoma Republican Sen. Tom Coburn - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senator_Tom_Coburn

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, this conspiracy by the educated elected persons in the U.S. Congress is one for the history books.

I'm not a constitution scholar, just a “regular” guy with an opinion about what I observe.

I'll leave it to the educated elected persons, and the educated staff of the educated elected persons, and the educated lawyers of the educated elected persons, and the educated constitution scholars who give counsel to the educated elected persons, to all agree with the ambiguous language in the Article II resolutions. As educated lawyers tend to do, for good reasons, good and tactical “weasel word” reasons, ambiguous weasel words are used because they work, regardless of the counsel of the educated constitution scholars.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

MichaelN said...

Kev,

Wong Kim Ark majority opinion.....

"The language of the Constitution, as has been well said, could not be understood without reference to the common law.....

In Minor v. Happersett, Chief Justice Waite, when construing, in behalf of the court, the very provision of the Fourteenth Amendment now in question, said: "The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens.

The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law"


English common law, per Calvin's case.....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under THE LIGEANCE OF A SUBJECT, nor under the protection of the King."

Given that "subject and citizen ate precisely analogous", then in US, for a native-born to be a US citizen/subject, he must be born "under the ligeance of a subject".

Now I know you are going to say that this only applied to enemy invaders in occupation.

The answer to that is UNLIKE the English, the US DOES NOT EMBRACE ALL aliens as citizens, who are not enemy invaders or diplomats.

In US, ALL aliens are not US citizens unless they are granted naturalization.

Kev loses again.

ajtelles said...

Oops – I missed #5 and #6...

[#4 "lower hurdle" is at April 5, 2014 at 9:44 PM]

3/6

My comment -

Another "lower hurdle" example of gobbledgook by educated elected persons, educated staff of elected persons, educated lawyers of elected persons, and etc., who use ambiguity and "weasel words" to promote their expressed intent.

Their intent is to enable a "citizen" who was, what, naturalized by oath(?), naturalized at birth by the 14th Amendment(?), naturalized at birth by the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act(?), so, take your pick, they are a naturalized "citizen" for at least 20 years, and so are eligible to be POTUS, but NOT if they were NOT a "natural born citizen" of the US and NOT if they are NOT a "native born citizen" of the U.S.

Can anybody make sense of this joint (what were they smokin') resolution?

Well, what IS a "native born citizen" of the U.S.?

1a - Does "native born citizen" ONLY mean "nativized" by birth on U.S. soil to TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents?
1b - Does "native born citizen" ALSO mean "nativized" by birth on U.S. soil to ONE (1) U.S. Citizen parent?
1c - Does "native born citizen" ALSO mean "nativized" by birth on U.S. soil to ZERO (0) U.S. Citizen parents?

So, if the aspirant is NOT eligible because they are NOT a "natural born Citizen" and also NOT eligible because by "reason" (by "reason" of what, of continual brain burps in the synapse gaps?) "... of NOT being a native born citizen," then they are eligible if they are simply a naturalized "citizen" for 20 years.

What's up with the "lower hurdle" ambiguous language, GHWBush era conservative Republican Representative Dana Rohrabacher?

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dana_Rohrabacher

- - - - - - - - - -

#5 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hjres2
H.J.Res. 2 (109th): Jan 04, 2005
109th Congress, 2005–2006

"Mr. CONYERS (for himself and Mr. SHERMAN) introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

"JOINT RESOLUTION
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 20 years, to be eligible to hold the Office of President.

"Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States:

"`Article --

"`A person who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 20 years shall be eligible to hold the Office of President.'."

My comment -

A "lower hurdle" resolution in which Democratic Representative Conyers was proposing amending the U.S. Constitution just in case the Democratic party might need to position, aka "frame" a future aspirant as eligible to be POTUS. I wonder who Rep. Conyers what thinking about in 2005?

To ask that innocent question is not an expression of a conspiracy theory, BUT to actually plan ahead with others, THAT is a conspiracy.

- - - - - - - - - -

#6 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/109/hjres15

H.J.Res. 15 (109th): Feb 01, 2005
109th Congress, 2005–2006

"Mr. ROHRABACHER introduced the following joint resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

"JOINT RESOLUTION
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who is not a natural born citizen of the United States but has been a United States citizen for at least 20 years.

#6 continues at April 5, 2014 at 9:47 PM

MichaelN said...

Still with us Kev?

Or are you gonna run away again?

Unknown said...

so you had to be born under the ligeance of a subject to be a subject of the King according to the ECL in calvins case but i am sure Kings and Queens wanted as much land and subjects as possible and did not care how they got them. The Founders were sick of being subjects of the King which is why they revolted and wouldve been tortured for their treason if they had lost. US citizens can leave this country any time they wish but subjects could only do so with the Kings permission so it is blatantly dishonest to say they are exactly the same...one of the main purposes of the US Constitution is to prevent anyone from gaining total power, esp a evil liar like barry. We the People are supposed to have final say and we are also entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness which are all natural rights given to us by our Creator.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The Obots say that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizen” the same as the English and colonists defined an English “natural-born subject” under the English common law. They rely upon William Blackstone as the most immediate primary source and United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898). According to the Obots, under that English common law definition, any child born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction, regardless of the citizenship of the parents, is a natural born citizen.

I, along with other Anti-Obots, maintain that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a natural born citizen the same as the law of nations defined one, which definition became incorporated into American common law. We rely upon Emer de Vattel as the most immediate primary source and Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875). Under that American common law definition, only a child born within the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth is a natural born citizen.

Let us ask ourselves, which of the two camps has sufficiently established a nexus between a natural born citizen and the source of the definition of the clause? In other words, have the Obots established through sufficient credible evidence (historical and legal evidence, reason, and logic) a nexus between the natural born citizen clause and Blackstone and the English common law? Have the Anti-Obots established through sufficient credible evidence a nexus between the natural born citizen clause and Vattel and the law of nations turned American common law? The answer to the first question is “no” and the answer to the second is “yes.”

What this means is that historically and still to today only a child born within the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth is a natural born citizen.

ajtelles said...

1/2

Kevin vs. a commenter...

Mario, over at ObamaConspiracy, Kevin, Dr. Conspiracy April 5, 2014 at 10:24 pm asked "Is there a point here?", after commenter Fuzz T. Was posted content similar to my post here on Puzo1, see Fuzz T. Was April 5, 2014 at 9:10 pm.

>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/04/an-open-letter-to-the-sonoran-news/

Fuzz's post was a duplicate of my "natural born Citizen" #9 "lower hurdle" resolution post that I posted here yesterday, April 5, 2014 at 9:49 PM, but without my comment.

I've had the original 9 resolutions on my OriginalBirtherDocument page for almost 2 years, and yesterday was the first time I posted it here or anywhere, and that same day Fuzz posted the exact content on ObamaConspriracy Fuzz T. Was April 5, 2014 at 9:10 pm, even the way I edited it for posting here on your forum.

- - - - - - - - - -

Nine 'Lower Hurdle' Resolutions by Congress to Define-Redefine “Natural Born Citizen"

>> #9 "lower hurdle"
>> http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/sres511
Res. 511 (110th): Apr 10, 2008
(110th Congress, 2007–2009

>> “IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

>> "April 10, 2008
>> "Mrs. MCCASKILL (for herself, Mr. LEAHY, Mr. OBAMA, Mr. COBURN, Mrs. CLINTON, and Mr. WEBB) submitted the following resolution; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary

>> "April 24, 2008
"Reported by Mr. LEAHY, without amendment

>> “April 30, 2008
"Considered and agreed to

>> "RESOLUTION
>> "Recognizing that John Sidney McCain, III, is a natural born citizen.

- - - - - - - - - -

See the rest of resolution #9 at April 5, 2014 at 9:49 PM and 9:52 PM, or see ALL of my 9 unedited resolutions with original URLs at

>> http://originalbirtherdocument19.blogspot.com/


My comment at the end of #9 “lower hurdle” resolution.

"See, the educated elected persons DO know what a "natural born Citizen" is even though nbC "is not defined in the Constitution ...," because the educated elected persons DO know what "... the purpose and intent of the 'natural born Citizen' clause," is because "... previous presidential candidates were born outside" of the U.S. "... and were understood to be eligible to be President," so that means that Republican Sen. John McCain is being promoted by 5 Democratic Senators (Claire McCaskill, Patrick Leahy, BHObama, Hillary Clinton, Jim Webb) and ONLY 1 Republican Senator (Tom Coburn) to promote ONLY the interests of the Republican Party in the 2008 primary without ANY thought, conspiratorial or otherwise, and totally honest, sincere, altruistic (cough cough hack hack) about the benefit to the Democratic [correction, Republican] Party, REGARDLESS of WHO the Democratic candidate might be.

"Yeah, right.

"That is not a conspiracy theory observation, but to ACTUALLY do it with others, THAT definitely IS a conspiracy.

"Mario, this conspiracy by the educated elected persons in the U.S. Congress is one for the history books.

"I'm not a constitution scholar, just a “regular” guy with an opinion about what I observe.

"I'll leave it to the educated elected persons, and the educated staff of the educated elected persons, and the educated lawyers of the educated elected persons, and the educated constitution scholars who give counsel to the educated elected persons, to all agree with the ambiguous language in the Article II resolutions. As educated lawyers tend to do, for good reasons, good and tactical “weasel word” reasons, ambiguous weasel words are used because they work, regardless of the counsel of the educated constitution scholars."

ajtelles said...

2/2

Kevin vs. a comment...

Yes, Kevin, there is a point here.

There's a conspiracy goin' on and the Obama-birthers are still saying in a monotone, “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”... 'cause their guy ONLY had ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent, and he has convinced his defenders that he WAS born in Hawaii, and was NOT born in Kenya as his book stated, about which the publisher initially said that the authors always supply the biography.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, the ObamaConspiracy Obama-birther Obots are lurkin' here, so keep on writin', 'cause we're winning the debate.

Yes, you, we, are winning the debate with original intent common sense about the original words written by the original birthers, the 1787 Founders and Framers, the 1787-1791 Ratifiers, and the 1789 Implementers, starting with the seating of the first Congress, followed by the Electoral College Electors who unanimously "elected" George Washington the first President, who knew that “natural born Citizen” had original birther John Jay's inspired and prescient constitution “higher hurdle” (my words, not Jay's) buffer of ONLY birth on U.S. soil (and jurisdictions) and ALSO of TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents.

Mario, the defenders of the common sense original intent of the original birthes are winning the debate, because the Obama-birther definition of “natural born Citizen” as meaning ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent and MAYBE birth on U.S. soil OR MAYBE NOT birth on U.S. soil, 'cause, it depends, you see, on who is the Democratic candidate, THAT is a constitution “lower hurdle” that is simplistic and silly, on the good side, and dangerous to the 21st century liberty of WE the Posterity of the 18th century WE the People, on the bad side.

It is dangerous, because if usurpation of the Executive Office of the President happened once in the 21st century, the 21st century progeny of the 20th century anti-christian and anti-semitic Islamic jihadists who supported Hitler during WW2 and the Jewish final solution, who want to destroy the U.S. Constitution and impose Shariah law uber alles, they will definitely try it themselves, especially if “natural born Citizen” were to be made irrelevant with only a 20 year “citizen” requirement (see #2 “lower hurdle” April 5, 2014 at 9:41 PM) -

"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 20 years, to be eligible to hold the Office of President."

Yes, Kevin, there IS a point here.

When are you and the Obama-birthers going to WAKE UP and get in touch with original birther John Jay's original intent reality about protecting the Executive Office from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic? When are you going to reject BHO's collectivist and “lean forward” claptrap implicit in his “...we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America” hit job on the original intent of the entire U.S. Constitution, and specifically Article II Section 1 Clause 5?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

ajtelles said...

1/2

Just for comparison...

Mario, having free time between projects, I looked at December 2008 articles at Kevin's ObamaConspiracy -

>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2008/12/natural-born-citizen/

What got my attention was Kevin's innocent sounding words written "By Dr. Conspiracy on December 17, 2008 in Citizenship" about the meaning of "natural born Citizen" in the "Concise Oxford English Dictionary."

This is nothing new, but it is a relevant example of the "ancient" lack of deep thought about the 1787 original intent of the original birthers, the original Founders, Framers, Ratifiers and Implementers, by the Obama-birthers since 2008.

Here is the 2nd paragraph.

- - - - - - - - - -

I hit the Concise Oxford English Dictionary for the “old meaning” of the term,
and it provided a very simple definition:
“having a position by birth”,
so “natural born citizen” means being a citizen at birth.

There’s nothing new here,
and indeed this is what is usually understood by the term.

If you look at all the uses of “natural born”,
it means “born with” some characteristic, "e.g.

natural-born storyteller,
natural-born swimmer,
natural-born athlete,
natural-born mathematician,
natural-born musician,
and on and one.

A natural born citizen is just someone born with the quality of being a citizen.

- - - - - - - - -

There it is, Mario.

THAT is what "natural born Citizen" means since 2008, "born ... a citizen," 'cause the “Concise Oxford English Dictionary”.

Whatever has been learned by Kevin and other Obama-birthsrs about John Jay's prescient "higher hurdle" (my words, not Jay's) understanding of "natural born Citizen" as meaning (1) ONLY birth on U.S. soil, and (2) with TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents, is irrelevant to the Obama-birthers 'cause the "lower hurdle" of (1) birth on U.S. soil, well, maybe, maybe not, it depends, you see, with ONLY (2) ONE (1) U.S. citizen, is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS, but "not both", 'cause, you see, only ONE (1) U.S. citizen is the best that BHO could offer the American electorate in 2008 and 2012, so the Obama-birthers are stickin' to that narrative. PERIOD.

ajtelles said...

2/2

Just for comparison...

Here is S...fast's comment which I quoted April 4, 2014 at 1:49 AM -

>> "and the obot position is that
>> "either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> "is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both."


My question to S...fast -

>> "S..fast, are you absolutely sure that the "theory" of "either ... OR ... not both" expresses the 1787 original intent of John Jay in his suggestion to George Washington that, to add a buffer to protect control of the executive office and control of the military from FOREIGN influence, access to the presidency should include a higher and more difficult hurdle to contend with than a simple ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?"

We're still waitin'... waitin'... waitin'... with birds chirpin' happily... waitin' for a coherent rebuttal and correction about the historical significance of Jay's suggestion to Washington of "natural born Citizen" being inserted into Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

What does Jay's underling the word “born” mean to the Obama-birthers?

Does it mean being “born” ONLY on U.S. soil?
Does it mean being “born” ALSO on FOREIGN soil?
Which is the “higher hurdle” and which is the lower hurdle” to protect the office of president?

To the Obama-birthers, which has Jlhn Jay's “higher hurdle” original intent significance?

Born to ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?
Born to TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents?

It's been 8 days, we're still waitin' for a coherent response to the “higher hurdle” post on March 29, 2014 at 9:50 PM.


Art
U.S.Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (Ajtelles),

That was great of you to post all the attempts by members of Congress to change the definition of a natural born citizen. The posting is important for at least two reasons.

First, it shows that only by constitutional amendment can the definition of a natural born citizen be changed and Congress knows that. It is simply wrong to think that an Act of Congress can make a natural born citizen. All the talk that Senator Ted Cruz is a natural born citizen by virtue of the old Naturalization Act of 1790 and the new 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(g) is pure nonsense.

Second, step in the sell-out Obots whose mission it is to legitimize the Presidency of Barack Obama and as part of that effort and for political expediency to give their support to the eligibility of Senator Ted Cruz and that of any other human being who has a pulse. Closing their eyes to the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ purpose for inserting the natural born citizen requirement into presidential and commander eligibility, they tell us that being a citizen of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress is sufficient to be a natural born citizen, even though there are many persons made citizens of the United States at birth under such laws who are from birth in allegiance and citizens of foreign powers. They add that no one cares about dual allegiance, loyalty, and citizenship from birth in a would-be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. They argue that under these laws, a person becomes a citizen at birth and that a natural born citizen is no more than that. But the very laws that they rely upon only define a citizen of the United States and not a natural born citizen. These amendment efforts show that just being a citizen of the United States is not sufficient to be eligible to be President. This realization follows correctly from the wording of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 which says that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, being a citizen of the United States was no longer sufficient to be eligible to be President and Commander and that only being a natural born citizen would do. Note how these Congresspersons want to make a citizen of the United States eligible by attaching to the status a certain number of years of citizenship like the Framers did for the eligibility of Representatives (at least 7 years a citizen of the United States) and Senators (at least 9 years a citizen of the United States). Also, the resolutions do not say “naturalized citizen of the United States.” Rather, they only speak about “citizen of the United States.” Here we have solid evidence that simply being a citizen of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress is not sufficient to be a natural born citizen. But what the Obots are doing, saying that a natural born citizen is simply any citizen of the United States at birth, is changing the definition of a natural born citizen without constitutional amendment. On the contrary, the only definition of a natural born citizen that has ever been recognized by the U.S. Supreme Court is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898).

It is a real disgrace to see politicians and Obots sell their souls for the sake of some political expediency and attachment to some politician. Why would anyone in his or her right mind want to lessen the security standards for one to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military? Is it that we do not have enough qualified natural born citizens to be President? All their nefarious efforts are outright treason to the nation and the Constitution.

MichaelN said...

Mario said...

"All their nefarious efforts are outright treason to the nation and the Constitution."
-------------------

Exactly!

Anonymous said...

In the kingdom of Nash, all subjects are considered "human". But many of them consider persons from the kingdom of Apuzzo to be sub-human.

One day an Apuzzonian arrives in Nashland and seeks permission to live in and be a part of the realm of King Nash. King Nash issues a proclamation, a decree, (a naturalization statute) that orders all officials of his government, in particular those supervising his border entry points, recognize that all Apuzzonians are human.

That is written to protect their right to be seen as that which they are, -that which they were born being.

Natural born citizens are born being just that, just as humans are. No statement of illumination of the truth of what they are is an act of executive or congressional or constitutional authority making something to be so when it is already so naturally, -but not recognized as such by those with ignorant and distorted ideas about the origin of one's political nature.

If a statute declared that all African-Americans were humans (as apposed to sub-humans as was how millions of Americans once viewed them) that statute would make nothing to be true. It would merely state for those of a different view just what the truth is.

Was Wong Kim Ark a natural born citizen?
"Mr. Wong, as the head official in charge here of the S.F. harbor federal immigration service, I declare you to NOT be a natural born citizen, therefore I bar you from running for President of your country."

Mr. Wong replies: "I am definitely a natural born citizen and demand my right to run for President. I demand that you release me at once so that my lawyer can sue the government for my natural right to seek the presidency!"

The Supreme Court hears his case and rules: "We find Mr. Ark to be a natural born citizen and eligible to run for President, therefore he must be allowed to remain in the United States."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash.

May I recommend some bed rest?

Anonymous said...

Slarti farted: "This gets you both coming and going as the SCOTUS made clear that the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction" included people in the situation of Mr. Obama, Sr."

So much brain but so little brain-power! "SCOTUS made clear..." What statement could be more absurd? EVERYTHING the court members write apart from their holding, is purely biased, -or unbiased, opinion; the reader decides the truth.
And even the holdings themselves, even if nearly unanimous, may be even more biased and distorting of the truth.
So stop asking us to kiss the backsides of the very flawed minds that pontificate from the bench of the high court.
Nothing is more dangerous to freedom than a sycophantic attitude like yours.

"the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction" included people in the situation of Mr. Obama, Sr...."

How do you "make clear" something that is false? I've already destroyed that assertion many times over in irrefutable ways, -ways that no one yet has even dared to attempt to rebut.
The silence of both sides is because you haven't a clue where reality lies.

Please explain just how a cabal of ignorant, isolated, and insulated men on the bench would have a clue as to what jurisdiction is when none of them were ever under it?

THEY HAD NO CLUE! And neither do you or anyone else here expressing opinions about a reality that has never once entered their protected lives. You've all lived you lives in the same class as the women of the nation: the protected class, and never served a day in the Citizen class. You have no grasp of reality.

The reality of human history is the reality of War. Not peace. Not civility. Not pampered and protected living.

It's the reality of swords & spears; arrows & axes; bullets and bombs. What do any of you know of that primal reality of life? What do you know of "subjection" unto death? Nothing.

You are all just a bunch of intelligent children playing in the sandbox of ideas. Courage not required. Nor intellectual honesty.

Anonymous said...

Slarti wheezed:

"...and the action of the 14th Amendment could not have naturalized Mr. Wong (and hence President Obama) because that would have violated the Chinese Exclusion Act."

You are confusing an amendment to the United States Constitution with a different act of Congress; the Civil Rights Act of 1866.

Also, you ignorantly refer to the Chinese Exclusion Act when you should have referred to the treaty with China which was superior to a mere act of Congress, requiring a two thirds vote.
That treaty could over-ride the Civil Rights Act, NOT a constitutional amendment.
That is elementary stuff. Apparently you have a higher estimation of your own "understanding" than is warranted by such an uninformed statement.

Mario misstated:
"Jack and Jill have a child who is born in China and according to you is a natural born citizen of the United States.
How can you continue to defend your position that place of birth is not relevant to making one a natural born citizen...?"

That which is natural in relationship to national membership exists as a spectrum or continuum from maximum to minimum.

John Adams and his progeny are examples of the maximum, -having only American forefathers back to the Puritans.

A child born to newly naturalized parents are the minimum of natural.

Those born abroad of parents also born abroad are not natural born citizens because there is nothing natural about their relationship to their grandfather's nation. They are natives of another country, and that's why the Americans adopted almost verbatim the language barring them from citizenship, -as seen in all naturalization acts from the first one.

You know that. Why would you assume that I would not? Remember, I am not your student. I stopped being that the day I had the realization that the founding fathers were natural born citizens and not simply citizens of the United States.
Nash.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote:
Also, the resolutions do not say “naturalized citizen of the United States.” Rather, they only speak about “citizen of the United States.”

No resolution will ever say "naturalized citizen" because under the American fiction of law, they do not exist. All citizens are natural citizens.
By the oath of natural-ization, they become new natural citizens.

If that were false, we'd be talking about the oath of citizenization.

There is only ONE CLASS of U.S. citizens! The Natural Class. But not all of them were born into it. Some were processed into it under the doctrine of citizenship equality's legal fiction.

"But what the Obots are doing, saying that a natural born citizen is simply any citizen of the United States at birth, is changing the definition of a natural born citizen without constitutional amendment."

They aren't the first. I've read their position stated by an "authority" as far back as the tail end of the founder's generation. If you don't know and understand the history and philosophy of citizenship then you are left without a response to their "authoritative" quotes.

I've spent considerable time and a couple dozen pages climbing the mountain of all the ancient American obotic authorities and casting them all down with irrefutable logic and fact.

It was a monumental chore but it needed to be done. Now it is and they have all been posted to my blog within the last month.

Any quote that supports them has been debunked by natural law; not human opinions, not court holdings, -just truth.
Arm yourselves with the sword of truth and you will be equipped to slay their unchallenged dragons. Otherwise... you won't.
For every authority you quote, they have a counter-authority. What they can't counter is straight-forward reason and facts. And they have never yet tried.

Nash.

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

Mario, your 2nd paragraph, which I opened up below, nails it.

The Obama-birthers argument is not only with you and others on the front lines, in court and elsewhere, but with their own Democrat friends in Congress, and their joint (what are they smokin') resolutions to amend the meaning of "natural born Citizen" or to circumvent the obvious original intent with, for example, a "lower hurdle" of a 20 year "citizen" requirement that the first U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay would vehemently reject as shallow, thoughtless, silly, and ultimately dangerous to the liberty and stability of America.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "... all the attempts by members of Congress to change the definition of a natural born citizen."
>> "... it shows that only by constitutional amendment can the definition of a natural born citizen be changed and Congress knows that."
>> "It is simply wrong to think that an Act of Congress can make a natural born citizen."
>> "All the talk that Senator Ted Cruz is a natural born citizen by virtue of the old Naturalization Act of 1790 and the new 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(g) is pure nonsense."

- - - - - - - - - -

Another person on the front lines is Lawrence Sellin, Ph.D., a retired colonel with 29 years of service in the US Army Reserve and a veteran of Afghanistan and Iraq, taking a hit from Kevin Davidson who wrote a letter to the editor of the SonoranNews.com condemning Sellin's thesis, somethin' fishy happened in 2008, the same somethin' that I referred to as a conspiracy of the educated elected persons in the Congress.

Ken's short article -
>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/04/an-open-letter-to-the-sonoran-news/

Sellin's April 2, 2014 article is here - "The strange 2008 McCain-Obama Presidential eligibility debate"
>> http://www.sonorannews.com/archives/2014/140402/guested-sellin.html


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The Obots argue that the Fourteenth Amendment and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), which both came over 80 years after the adoption of the Constitution, define what a natural born citizen is. The logic of such an argument is to say that a natural born citizen is an evolving concept which has changed from when the Founders and Framers first inserted it into the Constitution in 1787. Ask yourself a simple question: did the Founders and Framers look at a natural born citizen as a concept that did not have a specific meaning and which needed to be defined as time went on? If natural born citizen was so vague and still needed to be defined, would they have even used it for presidential and commander in chief eligibility? If that were the case, would they not have given Congress the power to define it like they gave to Congress in Article I, Section 8, Clause 10 the power “[t]o define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations?”

Of course, we know that the Framers did use the concept for the highly sensitive singular and all-powerful civil and military offices of president and commander in chief and they did not give Congress, an institution which they did not trust when it came to selecting the person to be president, any power to define it. Hence, the only logical answer is that they had a very specific definition for the clause, a definition which did not present any doubt. In fact, the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) told us that the Framers got their definition of the clause from the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution and that the definition under that law was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Accord Wong Kim Ark. Such a definition is universal, immutable, clear, concise, and distinct and needs no further explanation. Such a definition presents no doubts. Such a definition is the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ only definition of a natural born citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Both Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) said that the Fourteenth Amendment did not define a natural born citizen. Minor, explaining that the Framers defined a natural born citizen under the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution, clearly and specifically defined an Article II natural born citizen under that common law. It said that that common law defined a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Wong Kim Ark, after favorably citing and quoting Minor and its definition of a natural born citizen, interpreted and applied the Fourteenth Amendment, which came over 80 years after the adoption of the Constitution and which did not expressly nor by implication amend or repeal the natural born citizen clause. Yet the Obots, ignoring the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court case of Minor, which did define a natural born citizen, maintain that Wong Kim Ark is the U.S. Supreme Court case that confirms that DF President Barack Obama, who does not meet Minor’s common law definition of a natural born citizen (even though he may have been allegedly born in the United States, he was born to a U.S. citizen mother and a non-U.S. citizen father), is a natural born citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Some have asked why did John Jay underline the word “born” when he recommended in his famous 1787 letter to then-General George Washington that the Commander in Chief of the Military had to be a “natural born citizen.”

First, we have to understand that the Founders and Framers had an unshakable faith and trust in God and in His nature which he gave to man. They believed that God gave us nature which in turn provided man with the true universal and immutable principles of reason by which man was to lead his life. Hence, if nature made it, it came from God and therefore had to be true.

Second, since Jay was referring to the qualifications of the Commander in Chief of the Military, the last line of defense that a nation has to preserve and perpetuate itself, when Jay wrote natural born citizen, Jay was conveying to Washington the highest form of allegiance that a person could have to his nation. This allegiance was natural allegiance. In Jay’s mind, born citizen could only mean truly born a citizen by nature and not made a born citizen by man’s positive or municipal law. So, one had to be a true born citizen and not one made a born citizen by man’s law. Hence, by underlying the word “born” which he preceded with the qualifier “natural,” Jay emphasized that one had to be a natural born citizen, which is what he wrote, and not just a born citizen, which is what he did not write and which is what Alexander Hamilton had proposed which was rejected.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of IV

You are looking for naturalization records of children born in the United States to alien parents before the U.S. Supreme Court decided U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark in 1898. You contend that since no such records exist, such children had to be natural born citizens.

-1. I guess founder historian and doctor, David Ramsay, did not get your memo before he explained that after July 4, 1776, birthright citizenship as a “natural right” was preserved only for a child born to citizen parents, that such “[c]itizenship is the inheritance of the children of those who have taken part in the late revolution; but this is confined exclusively to the children of those who were themselves citizens….” Id. at 6. He explained that there is an “immense” difference between a British “subject” and a United States “citizen.” He added that “citizenship by inheritance belongs to none but the children of those Americans, who, having survived the declaration of independence, acquired that adventitious character in their own right, and transmitted it to their offspring….” Id. at 7. Ramsay did not look to English common law but rather to natural law. As we can see, Ramsay required the future “natural born citizens” to be children of citizens.

-2. Representative William Smith did not get your memo before citing to Emer de Vattel and saying in the House of Representatives in 1789:

"Vattel says: 'The country of the father is that of the children and these become citizens by their tacit consent.' I was born a Carolinian [before the Declaration], and I defy the Doctor to say at what moment I was disenfranchised. The revolution which took place in America made me a citizen, though then resident at Geneva…. There was never a moment when I was a citizen of any other country.”

-3. Supreme Court Justice, James Wilson, signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, also did not get your memo before he told us in 1791:

“English law has its roots in Anglo-Saxon customs, which were too firmly established to be completely broken by the Norman Conquest and still form the basis of their common law today. In 1068, having at last reduced the country to submission, William set to work to establish a Roman government on a firm and lasting basis. Roman law, the legal system of ancient Rome is now the basis of civil law, one of the main European legal systems.

***

I know that the term citizen is often applied to one of the more numerous party—to one of the people: and I shall be obliged to take the description of a citizen from the character which he supports as one of the people. But you will easily perceive, that the same person may, at different times, act or be viewed in different characters; and though his description be taken from one of them, the account of his duties and of his rights too may, on a particular occasion, be referred to the other. This I have chosen to do, rather than to introduce an unknown phrase, or to use a known phrase in a new signification. Besides, the expression is frequently employed also in the sense in which I now use it. 'Generally speaking,' says the great political authority, Aristotle, 'a citizen is one partaking equally of power and of subordination.'

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of IV

A citizen then—to draw his description as one of the people—I deem him, who acts a personal or a represented part in the legislation of his country. He has other rights; but his legislative I consider as his characteristic right. In this view, a citizen of the United States is he, who is a citizen of at least some one state in the Union: for the members of the house of representatives in the national legislature are chosen, in each state, by electors, who, in that state, have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature. In this view, a citizen of Pennsylvania is he, who has resided in the state two years; and, within that time, has paid a state or county tax: or he is between the ages of twenty one and twenty two years, and the son of a citizen.

***

You will be pleased to hear, that, with regard to this as well as to many other subjects, we have renewed, in our governments, the principles and the practice of the ancient Saxons.”

-4. Also, founder and legal scholar and judge, St. George Tucker, also did not get your memo before he wrote:

“3. Civil rights, taken in a strict and confined sense, as contradistinguished from natural and social rights, are such as appertain to a man as a citizen or subject, of this, or that, particular state or country; in his private and individual capacity as a free agent, and member of the body politic or state, in respect to the state or body politic; and contradistinguished from such as might be due to him as a magistrate, legislator, judge, or other public agent, character, or functionary. The right of electing, and being elected to, any public office or trust, may be considered as among the most important of these rights. These civil rights may be inherited, or acquired, in the United States: they are acquired by a foreigner who is naturalized; they are inherited by all whose parents, at the time of their birth, were citizens.

***

Persons naturalized according to these acts, are entitled to all the rights of natural born citizens, except, first, that they cannot be elected as representatives in congress until seven years, thereafter. Secondly, nor can they be elected senators of the United States, until nine years thereafter. Thirdly, they are forever incapable of being chosen to the office of president of the United States. Persons naturalized before the adoption of the constitution, it is presumed, have all the capacities of natural born citizens. See C. U. S. Art. 1, 2.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

-5. I guess the James Madison Administration did not get your memo. Here is what Publius (probably President James Madison) wrote in 1811 regarding whether James McClure, who was born in South Carolina on April 21, 1785 to a British natural born subject father, was a “citizen of the United States” (not to be conflated and confounded with a “natural born citizen”):

“Mr. Rodman hints, that it would have been sufficient for James McClure to have been born in the United States—he is mistaken. The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. The law of Virginia, of 1792, does—for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen, but the U. States’ act does not go so far. A man must be naturalized to make his children such.”

By Secretary of States Monroe’s letter of November 27, 1811 to Joel Barlow, Esq. we learn that the McClure matter also involved Representative Langdon Cheves and U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson. This is how Cheves, who became Speaker of the House of Representatives, defined a natural born citizen before the House of Representatives in 1814:

“The children have a natural attachment to the society in which they are born: being obliged to acknowledge the protection it has granted to their fathers, they are obliged to it in a great measure for their birth and education. … We have just observed that they have a right to enter into the society of which their fathers were members. But every man born free, the son of a citizen, arrived at years of discretion, may examine whether it be convenient for him to join in the society for which he was destined by his birth”

(citing and quoting Vattel, Book 1, Chapter 19, Sec. 220).

It is clear from what Cheves wrote that his view of what a natural born citizen was comes from John Locke and what Vattel wrote in Section 212 and 220 of the Law of Nations (“We have observed above (§212), that they have a right to enter [104] into the society of which their fathers were members. But every man is born free; and the son of a citizen, when come to the years of discretion, may examine whether it be convenient for him to join the society for which he was destined by his birth.”)

See below under Shanks how Justice Johnson viewed American citizenship.

-6. It looks like the U.S. Supreme Court in Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, also did not get your memo before it held:

If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.”

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830).

-7. The Justice Story in the U.S. Supreme Court case of Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) also did not get your memo. Justice Story, providing Vattel’s concept of citizenship without citing him, said:

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

Furthermore, the opinion of James McClure’s citizenship was also rendered by U.S. Supreme Court Justice, William Johnson. Justice Johnson rendered the dissenting opinion in Shanks (he dissented because he did not believe that under the presented circumstances Shanks could throw off her American allegiance and become British). He said there:

“By an act of the state passed in 1712, the common law of Great Britain was incorporated into the jurisprudence of South Carolina. In the year 1782, when this descent was cast, it was the law of the land, and it becomes imperative upon these appellants after admitting that their parent was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of South Carolina, to show on what ground they can escape from the operation of these leading maxims of common law. Nemo potest exuere patriam -- and proles sequitur sortem paternam.”

Id. at 252. Proles sequitur sortem paternam is equivalent to “partus sequitur patrem” (children follow the condition of the parents).

-8. It looks like the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) also did not get your memo before it said:

“At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children, born in a country of [p680] parents who were its citizens, became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further, and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class, there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens.”

And let us not forget the U.S. Government and Chief Justice Fuller and Justice Harlan in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (in dissent), who maintained that Wong, even though born in the United States, was alien born because he was not born to U.S. citizen parents. It looks like they also did not get your memo.

Unknown, historical and legal evidence, reason, and logic are really stacked up against you. You have nowhere to run except to quid pro quo establishment politics.

ajtelles said...

1/2

"... why did John Jay underline the word “born"...

For a long time I have been trying to come up with a "higher hurdle" way of expressing the ONLY born on U.S. soil to TWO (2) U.S. Citizen parents implicit meaning, the ONLY implicit meaning, of “natural born Citizen,” that could help common sense busy citizens makes sense of the point/counter-point discussion associated with Article II Section Clause 5 and the perpetual relevance of “natural born Citizen” for WE the Posterity of WE the People.

Mario, I think that your April 7, 2014 at 7:11 PM comment in paragraph 3, which is included below and which you have expressed before, "natural allegiance" as being "the highest form of allegiance that a person could have to his nation," contains the kernel of truth that, to mix metaphors, hits the sweet spot of "higher truth."

I expect that the “higher hurdle” of “higher truth” will be agreeable to ALL 21st century "birthers," the principled common sense "birthers" who adhere to the 1787 original intent of the 1787-1789 original birthers (Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, Electoral College Implementers), the principled Obama-birthers (they've gotta exist, they can't ALL be “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”... cadre Obots), the principled Cruz-birthers, the principled Rubio-birthers, etc., and the principled nebulous "birthers" of any persuasion who are on the 'fulcrum of the see-saw' and are still not sure of the validity of the speculative proposition that the original intent meaning of "natural born Citizen" is an evolving ipso facto meaning of circumstance, depending on who the candidate may be (Obama, Cruz, Jindal, Haley, Rubio, etc.), or who in Congress may propose an Article II Section 1 Clause 5 ”lower hurdle”amendment to “clarify” the meaning of “natural born Citizen,” or who in Congress may propose the eligibility “lower hurdle” of being a U.S. “citizen” for 35 years or 20 years, regardless of where the POTUS aspirant was born and regardless of the citizenship status of one or both parents.

For those who are not aware of the nine resolutions proposed by Congress, which started in 2003 and stopped abruptly in 2008 after five Democrats and only one Republication passed a “simple resolution” (words found in the text) resolving that Arizona Senator John McCain was a “natural born Citizen,” below is a shorter version of a previous post here on Puzo1.blogspot.com, and all nine resolutions are available at http://originalbirtherdocument19.blogspot.com/ with URLs to the original government pages.

- - - - - - - - - -

Article II Section 1 Clause 5 -
“No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of the President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

1 – JOINT RESOLUTION Jun 11, 2003 - 108th Congress, 2003–2004
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 35 years, to be eligible to hold the offices of President and Vice President."

ajtelles said...

2/2

"... why did John Jay underline the word “born"...

2 – JOINT RESOLUTION Sep 03, 2003 – 108th Congress, 2003–2004
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 20 years, to be eligible to hold the Office of President."

3 – A BILL Feb 25, 2004 = 108th Congress, 2003–2004
"To define the term ‘natural born Citizen’ as used in the Constitution of the United States to establish eligibility for the Office of President.

"Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

"SEC. 2. DEFINITION OF ‘NATURAL BORN CITIZEN’.
"(a) IN GENERAL- Congress finds and declares that the term ‘natural born Citizen’ in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States means--

"(1) any person born in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof; and
"(2) any person born outside the United States--
"(A) who derives citizenship at birth from a United States citizen parent or parents pursuant to an Act of Congress; or
"(B) who is adopted by 18 years of age by a United States citizen parent or parents who are otherwise eligible to transmit citizenship to a biological child pursuant to an Act of Congress.

(b) UNITED STATES- In this section, the term ‘United States’, when used in a geographic sense, means the several States of the United States and the District of Columbia.

4 – JOINT RESOLUTION Sep 15, 2004 - 108th Congress, 2003–2004
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to make eligible for the Office of President a person who is not a natural born citizen of the United States but has been a United States citizen for at least 20 years.

5 – JOINT RESOLUTION Apr 14, 2005 – 109th Congress, 2005–2006
"Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to permit persons who are not natural-born citizens of the United States, but who have been citizens of the United States for at least 35 years, to be eligible to hold the offices of President and Vice President.

6 – SEC. 2. DEFINITION OF `NATURAL BORN CITIZEN' Feb 28, 2008 – 110th Congress, 2007–2009
"Congress finds and declares that the term `natural born Citizen' in article II, section 1, clause 5 of the Constitution of the United States shall include: `Any person born to any citizen of the United States while serving in the active or reserve components of the United States Armed Forces'.

- - - - - - - - - -

First, here are some “higher hurdle” questions for ALL “birthers.”

Which do Obama-birthers and Cruz-birthers think represents the John Jay original intent and the “highest form of allegiance,” the “higher hurdle which is the highest hurdle”, for a POTUS aspirant?

1a – A POTUS aspirant MUST be born to TWO (2) U.S. citizen parents?
1b – A POTUS aspirant CAN be born to ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?
1c – A POITUS aspirant CAN be born to ZERO (0) U.S. citizen parents?

2a - A POTUS aspirant MUST be born ONLY on U.S. soil (and jurisdiction)?
2b - A POTUS aspirant CAN be born ALSO on foreign soil?

ajtelles said...

3/4

"... why did John Jay underline the word “born"...

Paragraph 3 - "... why did John Jay underline the word “born"...

3a – A POTUS aspirant MUST attain the age of 35?
3b – A POTUS aspirant CAN

“Second, since Jay was referring to the qualifications of the Commander in Chief of the Military, the last line of defense that a nation has to preserve and perpetuate itself, when Jay wrote natural born citizen, Jay was conveying to Washington the highest form of allegiance that a person could have to his nation. This allegiance was natural allegiance. In Jay’s mind, born citizen could only mean truly born a citizen by nature and not made a born citizen by man’s positive or municipal law. So, one had to be a true born citizen and not one made a born citizen by man’s law. Hence, by underlying the word “born” which he preceded with the qualifier “natural,” Jay emphasized that one had to be a natural born citizen, which is what he wrote, and not just a born citizen, which is what he did not write and which is what Alexander Hamilton had proposed which was rejected.”

1 - >> "Second, since Jay was referring to the qualifications of the Commander in Chief of the Military,
“qualifications” = requires a “higher hurdle”

2 - >> "the last line of defense that a nation has to preserve and perpetuate itself,
“preserve and perpetuate” = “higher hurdle” expectations

3 - >> "when Jay wrote natural born citizen,
“natural born citizen” = a “higher hurdle” for 3 reasons inherent in the three word unit itself

1 - “natural” = conception, gestation, presence, the “higher hurdle” ONLY way to be born.
2 - “born” = the “higher hurdle” presence that is the result of the physical union of 2 persons.
3 - “citizen” = the “higher hurdle” result of the physical union of the “higher hurdle” TWO (2) parents who are BOTH “higher hurdle” U.S. citizens.

4 - >> "Jay was conveying to Washington the highest form of allegiance that a person could have to his nation.
“highest form” = “higher hurdle”

5 - >> "This allegiance was natural allegiance.
“natural” = “higher hurdle”

The birth “natural allegiance” of the child is to the nation of the two parents who physically produced the child.

The citizen “natural allegiance” of the child is to the nation of the two parents who both possess the same citizen status.

If one parent is a U.S. citizen, the child, by U.S. amendment and statute, is a “citizen” of the U.S. but not an Article II “natural born Citizen,” and the citizen “natural allegiance” of the child is to the nation of the one U.S. citizen parent.

If one parent is a foreign citizen, the child is also a “citizen” of that parent's nation, but the child is not a U.S. “natural born Citizen” because the foreign citizen parent can not convey what the foreign parent does not possess, the “higher hurdle” of U.S. citizenship. This dual citizenship means that the citizen natural allegiance of the child is ALSO to the nation of the one foreign citizen parent.

For the same reason it takes two “persons” to tango and produce a child, it takes two “citizens” to produce a “natural born Citizen.” The same reason is, it takes TWO (2).

It takes the minimum of TWO “persons” to produce a child and TWO U.S. citizen parents to produce a child who is also, by the “higher hurdle” of birth WITH 2 parents and citizenship FROM 2 parents, a “natural born Citizen” with “natural allegiance” to the nation of the two natural parents who are BOTH U.S. citizens.

ajtelles said...

4/4

"... why did John Jay underline the word “born"...

U.S. natural born citizenship is the John Jay “higher hurdle” because it is (a) by “nature,” the physical union of 2 persons, (b) by natural law conception, gestation and “birth,” after the physical union of the 2 persons who are parents, and (c) by positive law “citizenship,” which is derived by birth to 2 U.S. citizen parents.

To accept any other definition of “natural born Citizen” is to accept the “lower hurdle” of BHObama and his Obama-birthers, ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent is sufficient and good 'nuf, even though 2 persons are by nature necessary to produce a child.

To reject the “higher hurdle” of John Jay, TWO (2) U.S. citizens are minimum, and anything less, ONE (1) or ZERO (0) U.S. is NOT good 'nuf.

6 - >> "In Jay’s mind, born citizen could only mean truly born a citizen by nature
“nature” = “higher hurdle”

7 - >> "and not made a born citizen by man’s positive or municipal law.
“made … by … law” = “lower hurdle”

8 - >> "So, one had to be a true born citizen and not one made a born citizen by man’s law.
“born … not … made” = “higher hurdle”
“made … by ... law” = “lower hurdle”

9 - >> "Hence, by underlying the word “born” which he preceded with the qualifier “natural,”
“born … natural” = “higher hurdle

10 - >> "Jay emphasized that one had to be a natural born citizen,
“be” = a “higher hurdle” by birth, not law

11 - >> "which is what he wrote, and not just a born citizen,
“just a born citizen” = “lower hurdle”

12 - >> "which is what he did not write and which is what Alexander Hamilton had proposed which was rejected.”
[“what Alexander Hamilton ... proposed [“born citizen”] … rejected” = “lower hurdle” was rejected]

- - - - - - - - -

John Jay 2, Alexander Hamilton 0.
John Jay 2, Obama-birthers 0.
John Jay 2, Congress 0.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (Ajtelles),

Another way to look at John Jay’s underlying the word “born” when he wrote “natural born citizen” is the following: John Jay, being very familiar with the English common law knew that the English naturalized children born in the King’s dominion to aliens as “natural-born subjects.” In fact, Lord Coke and the English court in Calvin’s Case (1608), after the English Parliament refused to do it, naturalized Calvin. Calvin was born in Scotland to Scottish parents. Hence, he was born out of England to alien parents and therefore not born subject to the laws or government of England. Lord Coke, based on what he considered to be Calvin’s natural relationship to the new English King, naturalized the postnati Calvin (born after King James IV of Scotland became King James I of England, Ireland, and Scotland and therefore born within the King’s dominion) at birth to be an English “natural-born subject.”

Emer de Vattel in Section 214 of The Law of Nations explained this English practice: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstances of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner.” Again, while Calvin was not born in England, he was born in the King’s dominion.

Jay, being an avid reader and student of both the English common law and William Blackstone and the law of nations and Vattel, understood that generally under English common law a child born in England was by the mere fact of birth in the country, if occurring to alien parents, naturalized as of the time of the child’s birth to be an English subject. Hence, Jay meant to convey to then-General George Washington in the surest way that the Commander in Chief of the Military had to be a born “natural born citizen,” who, being so “born,” required no positive or municipal law or Congress or court to make him or her so, and not a “natural born citizen” made by such law, Congress, or court (if anyone believed that a natural born citizen could be so made).

We also know that our early Congress rejected the English common law jus soli model (which was really based on a relationship to the King and not just being born in the country) which allowed mere birth in the country to naturalize from the moment of birth an alien’s child born in England. Our early Congress (many members of the First and Third Congress were Founder and Framers), through the Naturalization Act of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, allowed children born in the United States to alien parents to be naturalized only upon the naturalization of the alien parents if occurring during the child’s minority and if dwelling in the United States, or upon the child reaching the age of majority, only upon duly presented naturalization petition of the adult. So, Congress, in the case of minors, when determining whether a child should be a “citizen of the United States” (or a “natural born citizen”) looked to the child’s relationship with his or her parents and whether those parents were citizens or aliens and not simply to the child’s place of birth which was not sufficient to produce either a citizen or a natural born citizen (Lord Coke also looked to Calvin’s relationship to the English King rather than to the fact that Calvin was born in Scotland rather than England.) So, we also have the word of our early Congress as a guide to what John Jay meant when he wrote “natural born citizen” to General Washington. And that word is that a natural born citizen could only be a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

All this is incontrovertible evidence that a natural born citizen, in the eyes of John Jay and other Founders and Framers, had only one definition and that was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Anonymous said...

Art wrote: Jay was conveying to Washington the highest form of allegiance that a person could have to his nation. This allegiance was natural allegiance.

That is not correct. Your focus on allegiance is blinding you to the real nature of human relationships. It is not based on what allegiance is, -which is loyalty & obedience. It is based on human bonds.

Parents and children have a bond of blood that binds them together. That bond extends to the larger groups of which they are a part, from clan to nation.

John Jay's concern was that one born with foreign bonds of attachment and devotion could not be trusted with the American military power.
It was not a matter of whether or not one had a higher or lower allegiance to his nation, but had a singular bond to his American family, -both immediate and national.

Someone with no bonds to any people or sovereign or nation what was not American is naturally going to have zero allegiance toward such foreign things.

So don't look to measuring allegiance. Look to measuring the purity of one's bonds. Are they purely American or are they mixed, diluted, bifurcated, dual, hybrid?

As for "natural allegiance"; the North Koreans would not feel any such thing if it were not for a lifetime of fear and indoctrination. Otherwise they would have zero allegiance to their own government and would all be actual traitors in its eyes (to the extent they could manage without being shot).
But they do have a bond to their own people and country via their blood connection. That bond is not determined by where they were born but to whom they were born.

Borders alone are not relevant to the formation of natural bonds, but familial and group connections are, and they are primal.
A mother grizzly doesn't care where her cub was born, and neither does the cub.
Nash

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "Jay meant to convey...that the Commander in Chief ...had to be a born “natural born citizen,” who, being so born, required no positive or municipal law...to make him or her so, and not a “natural born citizen” made by such law, Congress, or court..."

Mario, you cannot use a word being explained to explain itself. You have to use other words and not insert the word needing clarification to produce clarification.

Again, You cannot inserted the word to be illuminated into the illumination of the word. The purpose and meaning of "born" is separate and apart from the meaning of the other two words is was used with. Using born in conjunction with them to explain born is sophistical logic.

Bottom line is that "born" denotes a born citizen. Nothing more. A citizen from birth. Born with citizenship, or born by nature as a citizen.

How can one tell which of the two the term "born citizen" refers to to eliminate the ambiguity?

One must add the word "natural" to denote citizenship by natural inheritance and not legal citizenship via permission of law.

So why didn't he underline the word "natural" instead?
Because referring to a natural citizen is also ambiguous due to the American fiction of law that makes foreigners into new natural citizens like all other Americans.

Hamilton floated the ambiguous "born a citizen". Jay was avoiding floating the equally ambiguous "natural citizen".

The ONLY means to disambiguate the intent he wished to convey was to emphasize that the CoC must not only be a natural citizen but must be one from birth, -born as a natural citizen, -not made a natural citizen via natural-ization.

He could have, and unfortunately didn't, reversed the order of the words by writing "a born Natural Citizen".

Nash

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

Mr. Nash,

There are concepts that cannot be explained by anything more than the concept itself. For example, define God. After you define God, define the material elements of the definition. You will come to a point that you will no longer be able to define the parts that you have included in your definition. If you try, you will just go in circles or will not have any more words in our language or any other language to be able to further define your element. Is that what you call “sophistical logic”?

Your statement that Jay’s underlining “born” meant a born citizen, citizen from birth, or born with citizenship is rubbish. Jay wrote “natural born citizen.” Does that not alone sufficiently suggest that he was talking about not only a “born citizen,” but a particular type of born citizen?” So your theory does not account for Jay not only writing “natural born citizen,” but also underlying the word “born.”

Then you say that his underlying the word born meant “born by nature as a citizen.” Well, where do you get “nature” from the simple act of underlying the word born? You cannot get there unless you also bring into the formula the qualifier “natural.”

My use of the expression a “born natural born citizen” follows exactly from what Jay wrote and emphasized. First he wrote “natural born citizen.” Then he underlined the word “born.” The unitary clause natural born citizen with born underlined means a born natural born citizen or a natural born citizen by nature or a true natural born citizen and not a natural born citizen by positive or municipal law (which is what the English common law and statutes produced).

You ask “[s]o why didn't he underline the word "natural" instead?” Did it not occur to you that Jay wanted to emphasize the one producing cause which sealed one’s fate regarding whether one was or was not eligible to be Commander in Chief of the Military. “Natural,” which is nothing more than a state of being, is not a producing cause, but “born,” which exists in the natural state of being, is. Saying that one is “born” says a lot, for it conveys the result of what a man and a woman create in nature which manifests itself at a specific moment of immutable time.

I am also tired of reading your “American fiction of law that makes foreigners into new natural citizens like all other Americans.” American laws (the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaties) naturalize the alien born to be either a citizen at birth or after birth. They do not make anyone, even the citizens at birth created thereunder, a natural anything. You should know even from your fictional account of natural law that positive or municipal naturalization law cannot make anything natural.

Your constant use of “natural citizen” has also gone beyond what is tolerable. Natural citizen in the end means nothing. It means as much as a natural athlete.

What all this means is that I am correct when I say that the clause “natural born citizen” is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause that cannot be interpreted or understood by defining its individual parts, but rather only by finding the definition of the whole clause. That definition can exist only in some source to which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers looked. That source is the common law. In fact, the definition of the whole clause may be found in the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. Under that very law, the definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 211-233 (1758); Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898).

So, Mr. Nash, your attempt to distinguish what you write from what I write in your further attempt to show that I am mistaken is nonsense. In how we agree, which you never concede, your efforts are nothing more than making it look like you are the inventor of all things natural born citizen.

ajtelles said...

1/2
Another way...

Mario, I made some comments on what you wrote on April 8, 2014 at 2:46 PM about John Jay and the "higher hurdle" implications for his underlining "born" in "natural born Citizen."

Maybe S...fast and Unknown can refute the "higher hurdle" aspect of ONLY birth in the nation of the TWO U.S. citizen parents to posthumously help John Jay clarify his implicit meaning. Did John Jay implicitly mean ALSO birth in the nation of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, or did he implicitly mean ONLY birth in the nation of TWO U.S. citizen parents?

- - - - - - - - - -

“Another way to look at John Jay’s underlying the word “born” when he wrote “natural born citizen” is the following: John Jay, being very familiar with the English common law knew that the English naturalized children born in the King’s dominion to aliens as “natural-born subjects.” In fact, Lord Coke and the English court in Calvin’s Case (1608), after the English Parliament refused to do it, naturalized Calvin. Calvin was born in Scotland to Scottish parents. Hence, he was born out of England to alien parents and therefore not born subject to the laws or government of England. Lord Coke, based on what he considered to be Calvin’s natural relationship to the new English King, naturalized the postnati Calvin (born after King James IV of Scotland became King James I of England, Ireland, and Scotland and therefore born within the King’s dominion) at birth to be an English “natural-born subject.”

“[...] naturalized the postnati Calvin (born after King James IV of Scotland became King James I of England, Ireland, and Scotland and therefore born within the King’s dominion) at birth to be an English “natural-born subject.”

“Emer de Vattel in Section 214 of The Law of Nations explained this English practice: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstances of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner.” Again, while Calvin was not born in England, he was born in the King’s dominion.”

“[...] the single circumstances of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner. [...]”

“Jay, being an avid reader and student of both the English common law and William Blackstone and the law of nations and Vattel, understood that generally under English common law a child born in England was by the mere fact of birth in the country, if occurring to alien parents, naturalized as of the time of the child’s birth to be an English subject. Hence, Jay meant to convey to then-General George Washington in the surest way that the Commander in Chief of the Military had to be a born “natural born citizen,” who, being so “born,” required no positive or municipal law or Congress or court to make him or her so, and not a “natural born citizen” made by such law, Congress, or court (if anyone believed that a natural born citizen could be so made).”

ajtelles said...

2/3

Another way...

Sentence 1 of paragraph 3 -

“Jay, [...] understood [...] a child born in England was by the mere fact of birth [...] naturalized [...] to be an English subject.”

Sentence 2 of paragraph 3 -

“… Jay meant to convey [...] Commander in Chief of the Military had to be a born “natural born citizen,” [...] and not a “natural born citizen” made by such law [...].”

Jay's “higher hurdle” of being, by nature, a “BORN” natural born Citizen vs. the “lower hurdle” of being, by law, “MADE” a natural born citizen distinction is exactly the “higher truth” which I have been trying to clarify and simplify for the “principled” birthers, original intent birthers, Obama-birthers and the nebulous birthers who are still not sure and so are still open to factual and implicit persuasion.

“We also know that our early Congress rejected the English common law jus soli model (which was really based on a relationship to the King and not just being born in the country) which allowed mere birth in the country to naturalize from the moment of birth an alien’s child born in England.”

“[...] our early Congress rejected the English common law jus soli model (which was really based on a relationship to the King and not just being born in the country) which allowed mere birth in the country to naturalize from the moment of birth [...].”

The “lower hurdle” of a “relationship” was a “lower hurdle” because this “relationship to the King” could be abrogated by law in the future, while the “higher hurdle” of being “born” could NEVER be abrogated by ANY King.

"Our early Congress (many members of the First and Third Congress were Founder and Framers), through the Naturalization Act of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, allowed children born in the United States to alien parents to be naturalized only upon the naturalization of the alien parents if occurring during the child’s minority and if dwelling in the United States, or upon the child reaching the age of majority, only upon duly presented naturalization petition of the adult."

"Our early Congress [...] allowed children born [...] to be naturalized […] ."

The early Congress understood the distinction between the "lower hurdle" of "allowing" naturalization, and that the "higher hurdle" of being born was beyond the control of Congress.

"So, Congress, in the case of minors, when determining whether a child should be a “citizen of the United States” (or a “natural born citizen”) looked to the child’s relationship with his or her parents and whether those parents were citizens or aliens and not simply to the child’s place of birth which was not sufficient to produce either a citizen or a natural born citizen (Lord Coke also looked to Calvin’s relationship to the English King rather than to the fact that Calvin was born in Scotland rather than England.)"

ajtelles said...

3/3

Another way...

"... Congress, in the case of minors, [...] child’s relationship with his or her parents [...] not simply to the child’s place of birth [...] not sufficient [...] a citizen or a natural born citizen [...].

The "child's relationship with ... parents" was a by birth immutable "higher hurdle" whereas the "relationship" with the King was a by law mutable "lower hurdle" that could be abrogated because it was by declaration of mutable law, not by immutable nature.

"So, we also have the word of our early Congress as a guide to what John Jay meant when he wrote “natural born citizen” to General Washington. And that word is that a natural born citizen could only be a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth."

"... we also have the word of our early Congress as a guide to what John Jay meant [...] only [...].

The early Congress did NOT in any way indicate, not even a "smidgen" of contrary discussion, that what Jay meant was NOT sufficient, which means that the early Congress DID agree that Jay's "higher hurdle" (my word, not Jay's) of being born in the nation of the parents who were it's citizens before the child was born WAS superior to a tacit "lower hurdle" of being "made" by declaration to be a "natural born citizen," a "made" declaration which could be abrogated by declarations of future Congresses.

"All this is incontrovertible evidence that a natural born citizen, in the eyes of John Jay and other Founders and Framers, had only one definition and that was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth."

- - - - - - - - -

Mario, John Jay's prescient suggestion about "born" to George Washington meaning, as you wrote recently,
>> "natural allegiance" as being "the highest form of allegiance that a person could have to his nation," contains the "kernel of truth" that hits the sweet spot of "higher truth."

If he were here, John Jay would probably say "dittos" to "only one definition."

Yes, ONLY ONE implicit definition, NOT TWO implicit definitions, to "natural born Citizen."


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

Mr. Nash,

Simply repeating the same thing over and over without addressing all the points that have been made which go to demonstrate that what you contend it not correct does not get you anywhere.

What is also absurd is your point that it is not allegiance, but rather "human bond." Your use of the word "human" is hilarious, for what other kind of bond could it be. Do you really think that we should let you go down in history as the person who replaced allegiance with bond? Do you not realize that they both mean the same thing which is tie? If you knew anything about the word allegiance, you would know that allegiance means nothing more than tie. Jefferson, in the Declaration of Independence, called allegiance "the Political Bands which have connected them [the American People] with another [the English people]." He even said that the "Free and Independent States... are absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political Connections between them and the State of Great-Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved." Again, nothing more than political ties or political allegiance.

So, Mr. Nash, why do you not for once stop trying to show us that you are smarter than anyone else. You really are a failure at it.

MichaelN said...

Well Kev, what have you to say about the SCOTUS majority, in both the Minor and WKA cases, recognizing TWO types of born US citizens?

i.e. Virginia Minor was recognized by the SCOTUS majority as a natural born citizen without reliance on the provisions of the 14th Amendment, AND it was held that the 14th Amendment, as a part of the US Constitution, does not say who shall be a natural born citizen.

You've gone all quiet again Kev, run away again Kev?

Unknown said...

Mario says the law of nations goes all the way back to roman times and my guess is that the term natural born citizen or something similar was around even then. I was watching some of the movie "Gladiator" and i would be shocked to learn that children of slaves or any other non roman citizen would be considered a citizen of Rome by virtue of merely being born in Roman territory. I do not think anyone should be automatically granted citizenship just by being born here until they prove they have high character as a adult or their parents are allowed to naturalise when they are minors, just like most of 1800s. We have enough NBCs who are sleazebags as it is.

ajtelles said...

1788...

Mario, you probably are already aware of the New York "natural born Citizen" text, found on the Avalon Project site.

>> http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/ratny.asp

"Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New York; July 26, 1788."

"WE the Delegates of the People of the State of New York, duly elected and Met in Convention, having maturely considered the Constitution for the United States of America, agreed to on the seventeenth day of September, in the year One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty seven, by the Convention then assembled at Philadelphia in the Common-wealth of Pennsylvania (a Copy whereof precedes these presents) and having also seriously and deliberately considered the present situation of the United States, Do declare and make known."

[...]

>> "That no Persons except natural born Citizens, or such as were Citizens on or before the fourth day of July one thousand seven hundred and seventy six,

>> "or such as held Commissions under the United States during the War, and have at any time since the fourth day of July one thousand seven hundred and seventy six

>> "become Citizens of one or other of the United States, and who shall be Freeholders,

>> shall be eligible to the Places of President, Vice President, or Members of either House of the Congress of the United States."


[...]

"Done in Convention at Poughkeepsie in the County of Dutchess in the State of New York the twenty sixth day of July in the year of our Lord One thousand seven hundred and Eighty eight.

"By Order of the Convention.

"Attested- GEO: CLINTON President

"JOHN McKESSONN

"ABM B. BANCKER Secretaries-

"(1) Reprinted from Documentary History of the Constitution, Vol. II (1894), pp 190-203."


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It appears that you do not understand the purpose of my presentation. Jack Maskell provides two possible arguments"

Your purpose is plain. The only plausible reason for your fabrications is that you don't have anything real.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It does not matter whose name we use for X. The logic and reason are the same for everyone."

What do mean "we"? If you or I propose an argument for discussion here, then we are free to chose the particular X. What actually happened is that you falsely attributed an argument to Jack Maskell:

"Here is the Jack Maskell's logically valid but logically unsound natural born citizen argument:
All born citizens are natural born citizens.
Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are born citizens.
Therefore Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are natural born citizens."

No, Mr. Apuzzo, that's not Maskell's argument. What you put as the primary premise was actually his thesis. He argued the weight of legal and historical evidence. He did not exhort to prove his conclusion by Aristotelian syllogism, and he didn't even mention Ted Cruz. If I'm wrong please cite and quote Maskell making the argument you attributed to him.

Remember accusing me, "You invent stuff", when I wrote, "Minor notes that Congress was within its constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were citizens"? My response was to quote the Minor Opinion noting what I said it noted, which is the best way -- pretty much the only way -- to refute a charge of fabrication.

Mr. Apuzzo, I'm saying that you invented stuff when you attributed the argument, quoted above, to Maskell. Your previous response was to say that I appeared to misunderstand your purpose. That is not a defense. An ideal defense would be to quote Maskell making the argument you said he did, but of course you are free to respond as you see fit.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I wrote:

"It appears that you do not understand the purpose of my presentation. Jack Maskell provides two possible arguments.

***

"It does not matter whose name we use for X. The logic and reason are the same for everyone."

You respond:

“What do mean 'we'? If you or I propose an argument for discussion here, then we are free to chose the particular X. What actually happened is that you falsely attributed an argument to Jack Maskell:

‘Here is the Jack Maskell's logically valid but logically unsound natural born citizen argument:

All born citizens are natural born citizens.

Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are born citizens.

Therefore Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are natural born citizens.’

No, Mr. Apuzzo, that's not Maskell's argument. What you put as the primary premise was actually his thesis. He argued the weight of legal and historical evidence. He did not exhort to prove his conclusion by Aristotelian syllogism, and he didn't even mention Ted Cruz. If I'm wrong please cite and quote Maskell making the argument you attributed to him.”

-----

Here is Maskell's argument which shows that I am correct in maintaining that he is arguing that all born citizens are natural born citizens:

“The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term ‘natural born’ citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship ‘by birth’ or ‘at birth,’ either by being born ‘in’ the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship ‘at birth.’ Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an ‘alien’ required to go through the legal process of ‘naturalization’ to become a U.S. citizen.”

Jack Maskell, Qualifications for President and the “Natural Born” Citizenship Eligibility Requirement, Congressional Research Service, November 14, 2011. http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf .

What Maskell is basically arguing in his conclusion is that all born citizens are natural born citizens. But he fails to provide historical and legal evidence from the founding period, confirmed by later U.S. Supreme Court case law, which supports his thesis.

Furthermore, what destroys Maskell’s argument is the contradiction that is contained in his argument. The contradiction exists between the statement,

“the term ‘natural born’ citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship ‘by birth’ or ‘at birth,’ either by being born ‘in’ the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents”

and the statement,

“[s]uch term, however, would not include a person who was not a U.S. citizen by birth or at birth, and who was thus born an ‘alien’ required to go through the legal process of ‘naturalization’ to become a U.S. citizen.”

The contradiction is that Maskell presents these statements as being both true. The problem with Maskell’s position is that the truth of his second statement destroys the truth of his first statement. The historical evidence shows that the Founders and Framers treated a child born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and requiring the legal process of “naturalization” to become a “citizen of the United States” (not to be conflated and confounded with a “natural born citizen”). Hence, by Maskell’s second statement, such a child could not be a natural born citizen, which contradicts his first statement that such a child was a natural born citizen.

So, Unknown, Maskell’s CRS Memo only has the appearance of something convincing (it is a Congressional Research Memo). But upon close analysis, it is just a lot of bits and pieces of information thrown together with nice footnotes which all together do not prove Maskell’s thesis that all born citizens are natural born citizens.

Anonymous said...

Maskell wrote: “The weight of legal and historical authority indicates..."

He went wrong right from the start by appealing to "authority" for a factual matter and not an opinion matter.
I've just read an amazing report about the 94 yr. old Guru of the Green Movement, and author of a powerful global warming scare book (Dr. James Lovelace?) that polarized everyone into action. Well, he recants it all now, relating that everyone was WRONG! That data and absence of change destroys what has become a religion.

Opinions can all be wrong, but opinions were all that he consulted. He did not consult the meaning of the words themselves or else he would have recognized that any opinion that failed to recognize the meaning of the word "natural" was inherently wrong.

"-that the term ‘natural born’ citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship ‘by birth’ or ‘at birth,’

He deceptively employed a word that has no defined meaning, the word "entitled", which raises the question; entitled by what? By Natural RIGHT? or by human tradition? or common law? or statutory law? or constitutional law? or what exactly?

He did not address that issue because his entire exploration was a mile wide but only an inch deep.

It was superficial, -shallow, involving zero principles that determine the boundaries of human life within civilization.

Vattel addressed the entitlement he referred to, and it was birth to a father who was a member of a nation. Mario's listing on April 7th of a whole slew of statements all supported that entitlement of every American father, -one which does not stop at the water's edge.

Nash continues...

Anonymous said...

Maskell wrote: "...‘natural born’ citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship ‘by birth’ or ‘at birth,’"

So... by that logic, Frankenstein is "a human being" by birth or by creation. Let's see... "by creation", just like "at birth" implies something is produced, effected, something which (without intervention), would not come to be.

So that which would be naturally produced, "by birth" is equated as indistinguishable from that which is the result of human volition and action of law. So Frankenstein is just another human being.

-So in the Terminator future, humans produced by humans and machines produced by machines are essentially identical in nature. What's the difference? They exist "by birth" or by creation. Hard to see a difference, right?

"either by being born ‘in’ the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; [or]by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents;"

So you have two completely unrelated circumstances; the alien-born in America and the American-born anywhere, and like dogs and cats, they are of the same citizenship species???

Correlation does not equal Causation. Natural citizens are citizens by inheritance, not native-birth, but he avoids that fact,lumping them in with those for whom native-birth is absolutely essential, -the alien born.

His logic was so absent that he failed to notice that those born abroad of Americans were citizens by the very same principle as those born in the parents' homeland; by a natural blood connection which produces inherited national membership in the young of US citizens.

He failed to explain why and how the correct term of "born citizen" was not what he was actually referencing as common between dissimilar citizens.
Everything he wrote applied simply to "born citizen", so his implication is that the founders added the word "natural" for no discernible reason. After all, it was only the CONSTITUTION! And written for all the ages to come.

Why avoid throwing in an occasion superfluous word here and there? After all, no one would ever come to a dispute about the difference between a born citizen and a natural born citizen, would they?
Hamilton's suggestion must be considered to have been adopted, only with a slight, inexplicable, linguistic embellishment ("natural").

Nash

Anonymous said...

Unknown wrote: "Here is Maskell's argument which shows that I am correct in maintaining that he is arguing that all born citizens are natural born citizens:"

That should be framed more accurately; what Maskell is saying is nothing more than that it is his opinion that the word "natural" adds no meaning to the words "born citizen".

You can't say that he is arguing that one is the other when he is merely saying that it appears by historical opinion, that people were of two opinions, and the truth need not be ascertained because we can all just have a Kumbaya consensus by simply accepting and embracing both diametrically opposed opinions.

Why determine which opinion was correct? That takes too much time and thinking. The low road, the short cut, is far preferable when one can be doing something else requiring payment of prevailing Attorney's fees.

"or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship ‘at birth.’"
So his short-cut understanding of citizenship takes the position that natural citizenship is legal citizenship and legal citizenship is natural citizenship.

Get this straight; nothing produced by Nature (like natural membership) is a legal thing, and nothing that is a legal thing is a natural thing. Two different universes!

Natural membership is from the same realm as the power of juries to nullify laws, -the power of judges to hold people in contempt and strip them of their freedom without trial. Where the heck is that found in the Constitution or Bill of Rights?

It's a matter of sovereignty. It rests with the People and with their judges. Neither authority can be questioned by anyone (other than a superior court, which avoids doing such a thing if possible).

Such natural authority, like natural membership, is antecedent to government authority, like the right to natural resources appropriated by the first souls to populate a new land. Their rights precede the rule of law and are superior to it.
So is the Right of all American parents to pass their national membership to their children. Government does not make their children Americans. Natural inheritance does. Government has no say in the matter of the membership of those who created it, -nor their progeny.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

You said:

"Unknown wrote: 'Here is Maskell's argument which shows that I am correct in maintaining that he is arguing that all born citizens are natural born citizens.'"

Unknown did not write that. I wrote it.

Unknown said...

I watched most of the NH ballot challenge yesterday with orly back in dec, 2011 and even though she showed them that barry has a BC image that is a cheap forgery and a social that failed e verify on govts own web site they still let him on ballot. The asst AG of NH was right there too and saw all the evidence and did nothing about it, he just cited a few NH statutes that supposedly made barry eligible to be on ballot and totally looked the other way with a smarmy look on his face. These people make me sick and i thought orly really put the AG in his place by telling him that by ignoring obamas forgerys and lack of eligibility it would make him complicit in fraud. I was dissapointed no one pointed out minor but some state reps were furious with the commission hacks, the asst AG and they asked them why a NH statute would override the US Constitution. I live in NH and that was a nauseating display. Neither the AG or commission would say why the child of a alien is a NBC

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

I of II

You posted thus:

"Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New York; July 26, 1788."

"WE the Delegates of the People of the State of New York, duly elected and Met in Convention, having maturely considered the Constitution for the United States of America, agreed to on the seventeenth day of September, in the year One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty seven, by the Convention then assembled at Philadelphia in the Common-wealth of Pennsylvania (a Copy whereof precedes these presents) and having also seriously and deliberately considered the present situation of the United States, Do declare and make known."

[...]

"That no Persons except natural born Citizens, or such as were Citizens on or before the fourth day of July one thousand seven hundred and seventy six, or such as held Commissions under the United States during the War, and have at any time since the fourth day of July one thousand seven hundred and seventy six become Citizens of one or other of the United States, and who shall be Freeholders, shall be eligible to the Places of President, Vice President, or Members of either House of the Congress of the United States."

[...]

"Done in Convention at Poughkeepsie in the County of Dutchess in the State of New York the twenty sixth day of July in the year of our Lord One thousand seven hundred and Eighty eight.”
-----

The New York proposed constitutional amendment put forth during the New York ratifying convention demonstrates the critical constitutional distinction between a natural born citizen and a citizen.

We can see that the proponents saw only one type of natural born citizen. At the same time, they saw different types of citizens. These classes of citizens became relevant given the grandfathering that the proponents provided for specific persons who were made eligible for the listed offices, which were not only for President and Vice-President, but also for Representative and Senator. Here is the scheme:

1. The amendment grandfathered as eligible persons who were citizens as of on or before July 4, 1776. This would have included for eligibility those who were born on or before July 4, 1776 and who became citizens of one of the colonies on July 4, 1776 and retroactively to before that date. These persons would have become citizens of their respective colony under the then-prevailing English common law or some state other common law or statute. The citizen status was grandfathered and would have expired after all those who qualified at that time died off in the future.

2. The amendment grandfathered those commissioned during the Revolutionary war and who became a citizen of one of the states or of the United States after July 4, 1776. Given that such persons had to have had a commission during the revolutionary war, these persons would have included persons who were born before July 4, 1776, but who did not become a citizen of one of the states or of the United States until after July 4, 1776. So if one was not a natural born citizen, but rather became a citizen of one of the states or of the United States after July 4, 1776, that person had to also have a commission during the war in order to be eligible for the listed offices. Hence, the proponents of this amendment wanted, for those who became a state citizen or a citizen of the United States after July 4, 1776, the additional requirement that the person also have had a military commission during the revolutionary war. Being a state citizen or a citizen of the United States was not sufficient if that status was acquired

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

after July 4, 1776. The only way that the proponents trusted a person who became a citizen after July 4, 1776 was if that person was also an officer in the Revolutionary War. Like those persons who became citizens on or before July 4, 1776, these persons also would have become citizens of a state (made citizens of the United States when the Constitution was ratified) under the then-prevailing English common law or other state common law or statute. Additionally, even if one qualified under the status, the status was only grandfathered and would have expired after all those who qualified at that time died off in the future.

The proponents also required that would-be office holders be freeholders (land holders). It is not clear from how the amendment was written to which class of citizens (all of them or only the last one listed before the requirement was introduced) this additional requirement attached.

What is telling from this proposed amendment is that after the grandfather period expired, being a citizen was no longer sufficient for one wanting to be President, Vice-President, Representative, or Senator. Then, only a natural born citizen was eligible for those offices. This means that one could have been a citizen of one of the colonies or states, but that status was only grandfathered. The grandfathering was tied to being born on or before July 4, 1776 and being a citizen at that specific time. If one was not a citizen by July 4, 1776, one could be eligible only if one had a commission during the revolution. So, all these persons who became citizens of their colonies or states by virtue of whatever law may had applied to their situation (the English common law or a state’s common or statutory law), were grandfathered to be eligible for office. But that citizen status was no longer sufficient for those born in the future. For those born after July 4, 1776, they had to be natural born citizens whose definition could not have been the same for one to become a citizen of a state or of the United States. Indeed, as we saw from Minor v. Happersett (1875), the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution provided the specific definition of a natural born citizen. And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

This scheme demonstrates that the New York amendment proponents did not see for those born after the grandfather period expired a citizen as eligible for the offices of President, Vice-President, Representative, or Senator. So it did not matter how and under what law a citizen was defined. What only mattered post-grandfather period was that one had to be a natural born citizen. So, for those born post-grandfather period, under this New York constitutional scheme and under the Constitution as actually ratified, the English common law rule that Justice Gray in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) said survived the revolution would have made persons citizens of their respective states. That rule did not control anything when it came to eligibility for these offices, including the Office of President, for that rule would have made state citizens who became “citizens of the United States” when the Constitution was ratified. On the other hand, the common law of which Minor spoke was critical, for it was by that law which the Framers defined who were the natural born citizens and thus eligible to be President in the post-grandfather period. And under that common law, only children who were born in the country to parents who were its citizens were the natural born citizens.

ajtelles said...

1/1

Dittos, Mario...

Your comments on April 12, 2014 at 9:08 PM are relevant for the September 17, 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 language, for the July 26, 1788 New York U.S. Constitution ratification language, and for the March 11, 1861 Confederate Constitution Article II Section 1 Clause 7 language written 73 years later, which I previously posted here on February 25, 2014 at 7:58 PM, and about which the Obama birth narrative defenders, aka the Obama-birthers, have been silent.

- - - - - - - - - -

You wrote -

>> “We can see that the proponents saw only one type of natural born citizen.
>> “At the same time, they saw different types of citizens.

>> “These classes of citizens became relevant given the grandfathering that the proponents provided for specific persons who were made eligible for the listed offices, which were not only for President and Vice-President, but also for Representative and Senator.

>> “Here is the scheme:

>> “1. The amendment grandfathered as eligible persons who were citizens as of on or before July 4, 1776.

>> “This would have included for eligibility those who were born on or before July 4, 1776 and who became citizens of one of the colonies on July 4, 1776 and retroactively to before that date.

>> “[...] The citizen status was grandfathered and would have expired after all those who qualified at that time died off in the future.

>> “2. The amendment grandfathered those commissioned during the Revolutionary war and who became a citizen of one of the states or of the United States after July 4, 1776.

>> “Given that such persons had to have had a commission during the revolutionary war, these persons would have included persons who were born before July 4, 1776, but who did not become a citizen of one of the states or of the United States until after July 4, 1776.

>> “So if one was not a natural born citizen, but rather became a citizen of one of the states or of the United States after July 4, 1776, that person had to also have a commission during the war in order to be eligible for the listed offices.

>> “Hence, the proponents of this amendment wanted, for those who became a state citizen or a citizen of the United States after July 4, 1776, the additional requirement that the person also have had a military commission during the revolutionary war.

>> “Being a state citizen or a citizen of the United States was not sufficient if that status was acquired after July 4, 1776. The only way that the proponents trusted a person who became a citizen after July 4, 1776 was if that person was also an officer in the Revolutionary War.”

- - - - - - - - - -

#1 - 1787 U.S. Constitution, Article II Section 1 Clause 5 -

“No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of the President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

- - - - - - - - - -

ajtelles said...

2/2

Dittos, Mario...

#2 - "Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New York; July 26, 1788."
>> http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/ratny.asp

[…]

>> "That no Persons except natural born Citizens,
>> or such as were Citizens on or before the fourth day of July one thousand seven hundred and seventy six,
>> "or such as held Commissions under the United States during the War,
>> and have at any time since the fourth day of July one thousand seven hundred and seventy six
>> "become Citizens of one or other of the United States, and who shall be Freeholders,
>> shall be eligible to the Places of President, Vice President,
>> or Members of either House of the Congress of the United States."


- - - - - - - - - -

#3 - March 11, 1861 Confederate Constitution, Article II Section 1 Clause 7 -

Clause 7 in the Confederate Constitution of 1861 helps to clarify the original intent of the original birthers who wrote the Federal Constitution that was ratified 73 years earlier in 1788.

See the entire “Constitution of the Confederate States of America March 11, 1861” at The Avalon Project.
>> http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp

(7) No person except a natural-born citizen of the Confederate States, or a citizen thereof at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, or a citizen thereof born in the United States prior to the 20th of December, 1860, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the limits of the Confederate States, as they may exist at the time of his election.

The clarity is in the historical fact that the 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 three word unit “natural born Citizen” was understood by the Confederate Constitution authors 73 years later in 1861 to mean the SAME thing that it meant to the 1787 original birthers who were the original authors.

“Natural born Citizen” meant ONLY born on U.S. soil with two parents who were married to each other BEFORE the child was born, and BOTH parents were citizens of the United States of America by either birth or naturalization BEFORE the child was born on U.S. soil, birth on the U.S. soil being the common sense prerequisite to residing for 14 years on U.S. soil by age 35.

The Confederate Constitution grandfather phrase “… or a citizen thereof born in the United States prior to the 20th of December, 1860, shall be eligible …,” with the independence and naturalization cut-off date of December 20, 1860, helps informed students of the U.S. Constitution, that was ratified 73 years earlier in 1788, to understand the original intent of the original birthers who did not insert their own independence and naturalization cut-off date of July 4, 1776 into Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

The value of the July 26, 1788 New York U.S. Constitution ratification language is that it helps to clarify the original intent of the September 17, 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 original authors.

The value of the March 11, 1861 Article II Section 1 Clause 7 language in the Confederate Constitution is that it ALSO helps to clarify the original intent of the original authors of “naturtal born Citizen” in Article II Section 1 Clause 5.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

In a speech he made to the National Action Network convention in New York City on April 11, 2014, DF President Barack Obama, in speaking about the Affordable Care Act, said: [6:44 to 7:02 in the Video , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FYpcoGzH0s]:

“We have states who just out of political spite are leaving millions of people uninsured that could be getting health insurance right now. No good reason for it. If you ask them what’s the explanation, they…they… can’t really tell you.”

Well, it sure looks like DF President Obama knows my feelings when I say that the American people have not received any “good reason” why he should be ruled to be an Article II “natural born citizen.”

ajtelles said...

"... leaving millions of people uninsured ...."

The "commune(ity) organizer" vs. "WE the Posterity of WE the People" of independent and FREE America,
_aka FREE individuals of America,
_aka FREE individualists of America,
_aka FREE to self-insure or to NOT self-insure.

The collectivist commune ideologue can NOT allow freedom to NOT do what the ideologue dictates MUST be done... for the good of the collectivist commune, of course.

THAT is why

>> “We have states who ... are leaving millions of people uninsured
>> "that could be getting health insurance right now."

FREE America to BHObama.

BHO, you do NOT have the Article II Section 1 Clause 5 moral authority to dictate to FREE America, and if you DID have Article II moral authority, you would NOT TRY to dictate ANYTHING to ANYBODY.

I did now know George Washington, an Article II "... or a Citizen," I did not know Abraham Lincoln, an Article II "natural born Citizen," I did not know Ronald Reagan, an Article II "natural born Citizen," and I do not know everything about everything to know everything about any one thing, but one thing I DO know is that it is obvious that Barack Obama, who is still trying to finish his "... we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America" stealth hit job on the U.S. Constitution, Obirther-in-Chief Obama is NOT an Article II moral man.

BHO said that "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it."

Yeah, right!


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

Notice that in his National Action Network speech, DF President Obama spoke only about needing a birth certificate and that he has one. Obama can talk to his audience with the smugness, arrogance, and conceit that we see in his presentation only by suppressing the constitutional issue of also needing to be born to U.S. citizen parents to be a natural born citizen. He knows that he has publicly conceded and that well-informed people throughout the world know that he was born to a father who was not even an immigrant to the U.S., let alone a U.S. citizen. Hence, being a loser for him, Obama, like television, radio, internet, newspaper, university, etc. spokespersons for the quid pro quo political establishment, will never publicly address the Article II U.S. citizen-parents constitutional requirement. Rather, they will just simply ignore the issue and act as though such a constitutional requirement does not exist. It is a targeted audience’s political and/or economic self-interest (which come in many forms), lack of alternative communication resources, or ignorance which allows Obama and these presenters to suppress public discussion of the U.S. citizen parents issue.

ajtelles said...

Voter fraud – passports – birth certificates...

That's BHO, Mario. To mix metaphors, you pegged the pinata donkey, and there's nothin' in it.

>> “He knows that he has publicly conceded and that well-informed people throughout the world know that he was born to a father who was not even an immigrant to the U.S., let alone a U.S. citizen.

>> “Hence, being a loser for him, Obama, like television, radio, internet, newspaper, university, etc. spokespersons for the quid pro quo political establishment, will never publicly address the Article II U.S. citizen-parents constitutional requirement.

>> “Rather, they will just simply ignore the issue and act as though such a constitutional requirement does not exist.

- - - - - - - - - -

YouTube - http://youtu.be/6FYpcoGzH0s -
Starting at about 10 min. 50 sec., to 13 min. 35 sec. – about the Voting Rights Act -

As the current administrator of our government, BHObama spoke at the National Action Network's 16th Annual Convention, April 11, 2014, and conflated passports and birth certificates. He obfuscated... again, and he created confusion... again.

- - - - - - - - - -

“In other places, folks may learn that, without a document like a passport or a birth certificate, they can't register.

“About 60% of Americans don't have a passport.

“Just because you don't have the money to travel abroad doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to vote here at home (applause).

“And, just to be clear, I know where my birth certificate is.
“But, a lot of people don't.
“A lot of people don't. (applause)
“Ha.
“I think it's still up on a website, somewhere.
“Ha ha ha ha.
“You remember that?
“That was crazy. (applause)
“That was some crazy stuff.
“Ha ha ha.
“I haven't thought about that in a while.
“Ha ha ha.

“Now, I want to be clear.
“I am not against reasonable attempts to secure the ballot.
“We understand that, there has to be rules in place.
“But, I am against requiring an I.D. that millions of Americans don't have.
“That shouldn't suddenly prevent you from exercising your right to vote.

“The first words put to paper in our American story tell us that all of us are created equal, and we understand that it took a long time to make sure that those words meant something. But, 50 years ago we put laws in place because of enormous struggles that vindicate that idea, to make our democracy truly mean something. And that makes it wrong to pass laws that make it harder to make any eligible citizen to vote.

[…]

“We're right to be on guard against voter fraud.
“Voter fraud would impinge on our democracy as well.
“We don't want folks voting that shouldn't be voting.
“We all agree on that.
“Let's stipulate to that, as the lawyers say. … ”

- - - - - - - - - -

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Congressional Legislative Attorney, Jack Maskell, argues in his, “Qualifications for President and the “Natural Born” Citizenship Eligibility Requirement, dated November 14, 2011, accessed at http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42097.pdf , that any born citizen, regardless of where born, to whom born, and by which law so made, is a natural born citizen. He arrives at his thesis by manipulating, distorting, omitting, and misstating historical and legal evidence. The absurdity of Maskell’s thesis can be readily seen by the following.

Maskell’s theory does not explain or provide any evidence on how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a born citizen. Rather, his is one that is based on what the definition of a natural born citizen ought to be today. He argues that when the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court said in Minor v. Happersett (1875) that children born in a country to parents who were its citizens were not only citizens like their parents, but also natural born citizens, and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners,” that the Court’s statement was mere dicta. He adds that Minor left open a question about who were the “natural born citizens,” when in truth, saying that “there have been doubts” whether such was true, it only left open the question of whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment. But there is more and so much more which I am not including in this short comment).

On the other hand, when Maskell tells us about U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), not only does he not consider anything which the Court might have said about an Article II “natural born citizen” as dicta (clearly Wong only needed to be and could only be a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, not an Article II “natural born citizen”), but he even invents that the Court held that Wong was a “‘natural born’” citizen” (Maskell’s words). Maskell must believe that we are foolish enough to accept him as an intellectually honest person because he said that the Court held Wong to be a “natural born” citizen, not a “natural born citizen.” Apart from all his intellectually dishonest tactics, Maskell does not explain by what means or mechanism the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers saw a person become a born citizen. In fact, Maskell’s theory ignores and suppresses, as the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained in Minor, the Framers’ requirement that under natural law (not naturalization law), which became incorporated into American common law, in order to be a born citizen, one had to be born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

We are all familiar with the saying: “I was born at night. But I was not born last night.” Maskell suppressing the truth and turning a blind eye to the means or mechanism by which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers required under the common law one to become a born citizen, is the equivalent to Maskell wanting us to believe that we were all born under the same circumstances and that therefore “born at night” (which includes natural born citizens) has the same meaning as “born last night” (which includes born citizens). Now, many Americans were born at night. But that does not mean that they were born last night as Maskell has assumed.

Anonymous said...

Mario does an excellent job of pointing out the flaws in Maskell's asinine logic, but unfortunately, he is guilty of his own asinine logic.

Exhibit #1. Aliens give birth to aliens. Natural born citizens give birth to natural born citizens. Aliens do not give birth to natural born citizens and natural born citizens do not give birth to aliens.

But in the church of Mario, natural born citizens DO give birth to aliens!
If the son of a President who was the son of a President who was the son of a President was born on the Canadian side of Niagara Falls he would be an alien in need of naturalization even though he was born with ancestors who were all natural born citizens going back ten generations and more.

In the Apuzzonian dogma such a son has no natural right to be recognized as being an American and is dependent on the benevolence of government in order to be allowed to be a naturalized U.S. citizen.

He is thus barred forever from his unalienable birthright to serve as leader of his country like his ancestors.

That is what Mario believes and teaches and he justifies it not by Natural Law but by the invented legal fiction he calls "American common law".

In colonial and post-colonial America, the common law remained what it had always been; English. But by claiming that the common law of nations was what America switched to, he then redefines that non-existing world-wide rule of citizenship/subjectship to be something that no "authority" on earth had ever claimed or authenticated.

But regardless, citizenship that is natural is NOT defined by citizenship which is legal, -with his definition based not on a natural principle but on human rules defined by him.

So, do NBCs give birth to aliens by Natural Law? or human dogma?

How can a child naturally be something different than his parents?

How can foreigners and their children visiting the U.S. (even born here) be naturally still subject to their own foreign nation and yet American babies born abroad are NOT naturally subject to the U.S. government? If they are naturally subject then they are by definition natural citizens of the U.S. and not aliens.

By what constitutional authority can the U.S. government block citizenship from American children when their parents are natural born citizens?

How does the issue of naturalization apply to anything other than aliens and their children, and NOT Americans and theirs?

By what mechanism does the political nature with which one is born get determined by an incidental transient factor such as geographical location and man-made borders?

Can the mechanism by which a human is human and a "Terminator" is non-human be combined into a new natural mechanism?

That is exactly what the unholy combining of the King's jus soli with nature's jus sanguinis results in; -something unnatural.

A Frankenstein kind of citizenship.

ajtelles said...

1/2

The unknown is explained by the known.

Mario, here is a simple question about the “unknown” for Jack Maskell and Democratic Party defenders of the Barack Obama birth narrative, aka Obama-birthers, aka Obirthers, who tend to avoid responding with an Ockham's razor simple answer to Article II Section 1 Clause 5 'original intent' questions for some obtuse, not sharp and to the point, reason.

It is also a simple question for Republican Party defenders of the Ted Cruz birth narrative, aka Cruz-birthers, defenders of the Marco Rubio birth narrative, aka Rubio-birthers, and etc., defenders who talk often about the U.S. Constitution, but who do NOT define and defend with a simple Ockham's razor answer THEIR understanding of the original intent of “natural born Citizen” in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, again, for some obtuse reason.

Also, with the same lack of an Ockham's razor simple answer, it is also a simple question for, as you wrote on April 13, 2014 at 8:48 PM,

>> “... television, radio, internet, newspaper, university, etc. spokespersons for the quid pro quo political establishment,
>> “will never publicly address the Article II U.S. citizen-parents constitutional requirement.
>> “Rather, they will just simply ignore the issue and act as though such a constitutional requirement does not exist.
>> “It is a targeted audience’s political and/or economic self-interest (which come in many forms),
>> “lack of alternative communication resources,
>> “or ignorance which allows Obama and these presenters to suppress public discussion of the U.S. citizen parents issue. “

Here is the dictionary definition of “Ockham's razor” to clarify the point for those who do not have access to a dictionary while reading this.

American Heritage Dictionary
Ock-ham's razor also Oc-cam's razor … n.
>> “A rule stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly,
>> “meaning that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable
>> “and that the unknown should first be explained in terms of the known.”

>> The simplest answer is best, and the unknown is explained by the known.

- - - - - - - - - -

Natural Born Citizens

What was 1787 constitutional convention delegate and 1783 Paris Peace Treaty signer John Jay's original intent for “natural born Citizen” in 1787, only four years after the 1783 Paris Peace Treaty was signed by John Adams, Benjamin Franklin and John Jay, and which was ratified by the American Confederation Congress on January 14, 1784?

To all birth narrative defenders, when John Jay underlined “born” in the three word unit “natural born Citizen” in his note to George Washington in 1787, which of the following 4 possibilities did John Jay intend as his ONLY intention ONLY four years after war and independence as a way to avoid foreign influence in the nascent U.S. government?

Did John Jay intend for ONLY 1 possibility—four years after war and independence?
Did John Jay intend for 2 possibilities—four years after war and independence?
Did John Jay intend for 3 possibilities—four years after war and independence?
Did John Jay intend for 4 possibilities—four years after war and independence?

1a - Birth ONLY on U.S. soil to ”2” U.S. citizen married parents?
1b -Birth ONLY on U.S. soil to ”1” U.S. citizen parent who was married to a foreign citizen?
1c -Birth ONLY on U.S. soil to ”1” U.S. citizen parent who was not married to anybody?
1d-Birth ONLY on U.S. soil to ”0” U.S. citizen parents?

ajtelles said...

2/2

The unknown is explained by the known.

2a - Birth ONLY on FOREIGN soil to ”2” U.S. citizen married parents?
>> (“ONLY...FOREIGN?” Definitely NO!)
2b - Birth ONLY on FOREIGN soil to ”1” U.S. citizen parent who was married to a foreign citizen?
2c - Birth ONLY on FOREIGN soil to ”1” U.S. citizen parent who was not married to anybody?
2d - Birth ONLY on FOREIGN soil to ”0” U.S. citizen parent who was not married to anybody?

3a - Birth ALSO on FOREIGN soil to ”2” U.S. citizen married parents?
>> (“ALSO...FOREIGN...two?” Definitely NO! Not after the 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” designation.)
3b - Birth ALSO on FOREIGN soil to ”1” U.S. citizen parent who was married to a foreign citizen?
3c - Birth ALSO on FOREIGN soil to ”1” U.S. citizen parent who was not married to anybody?

- - - - - - - - - -

My Ockham's razor, “unknown … explained … [by the] known” common sense original intent choice is simple.

1a - Birth only on U.S. soil to two U.S. citizen married parents.

The “unknown” about soil and birth that is implicit in “natural born Citizen” as understood by John Jay is explained by the “known” of John Jay's wanting to prevent “foreign influence”, both foreign soil birth and foreign citizenship of the parents, in the Executive office and the concomitant control of the U.S. military as explicitly stated by John Jay in his note to George Washington.

John Jay was prescient in the 18th century.

How wise are defenders of the Obama birth narrative, the Obama-birthers, the Obirthers, and how wise are defenders of other birth narratives of possible Republican POTUS aspirants in the 21st century to ignore and ridicule defenders of the original birth narrative implicit in the three word unit “natural born Citizen?”

How wise are the American BIG Media on television and the national radio BIG Talkers and internet BIG Bloggers, who continue to ignore Article II Section 1 Clause 5 in the U.S. Constitution. It seems that they do not even know that they are ignorant of the original intent of John Jay who insisted on, and George Washington agreed to, inserting into Article II Section 1 Clause 5 the word “natural” along with “born Citizen” AND underlining the word “born” with definitive and perpetual intent to protect WE the Posterity of the original WE the People?

John Jay was prescient and wise in the 18th century.

WE the Posterity includes the BIG Talkers and the BIG Bloggers.

What's with our BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers, our wise guys in the 21st century, who don't know or seem to not care that they are ignorant about the original intent implicit in “natural born Citizen” to prevent foreign influence in the Executive office that was written and adopted by the original birthers, the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, specifically John Jay, the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States?

So where are these BIG Kahuna wise guys and gals, and why do they stay willingly ignorant of Article II Section 1 Clause 5, but they are willing to talk about Article V and the “convention of state legislatures” to amend the constitution?

- - - - - - - - - -

PS.
The Obama-birthers have been silent after ONLY ONE Obirther, Slartibartfast (aka S...fast), huffed and puffed on February 28, 2014 at 5:40 AM and at 5:41 AM... and then sat back down, or went into cloaking device stealth mode here. We've been waitin' since April 4, 2014 at 5:05 AM when S...fast said that he would “... give you a coherent explanation ... in another comment” about “only one citizen parent” being sufficient since BHO was born in Hawaii, which the Obirthers still choose to believe is true 'cause BHO said so.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

ajtelles said...

Have you heard...

h2o said to Mario,

>> “If the son of a President who was the son of a President who was the son of a President was born on the Canadian side of Niagara Falls he would be an alien in need of naturalization even though he was born with ancestors who were all natural born citizens going back ten generations and more.

>> “In the Apuzzonian dogma such a son has no natural right to be recognized as being an American and is dependent on the benevolence of government in order to be allowed to be a naturalized U.S. citizen.

>> “He is thus barred forever from his unalienable birthright to serve as leader of his country like his ancestors.

[...]

>> “How can a child naturally be something different than his parents?

- - - - - - - - - -

Hey, h2o, have you heard of, and have you read the 1795 Naturalization Act with the “citizen” designation that agrees with part of your sentence, “he is thus barred forever from his unalienable birthright to serve as leader of his country like his ancestors.”

Yes, h2o, “he is thus barred forever.”

Obviously, h2o, “his unalienable birthright” IS alienable since the 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” designation says so. A 1795 “citizen” naturalized by the “benevolence of government” and a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act “citizen” naturalized by the “benevolence of government” are NOT eligible to be POTUS or Vice POTUS.

So, h2o, the language in both naturalization acts refutes your thesis.
You are wrong, Mario and the naturalization acts are right.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Anonymous said...

Along with the Ramsay Dissertation, the Civil Rights Act of 1866 stops the "born citizen" doctrine in its tracks.

Their sham is based on interpreting the subjection requirement of the 14th Amendment nationality clause as meaning something quite different from the related clause of the Civil Rights Act, and yet they are just different angles on the same subject.

The focus was shifted from not being subject to any Foreign Power to being subject to U.S. authority because of American Natives who were not subject to any foreign power and yet were not subject to American authority either.
The wording of the amendment excluded them from citizenship regardless of native-birth.

It was not aimed at sons of foreign ambassadors or invaders. The former were of numbers so small as to be invisible, while the latter were non-existent.

These facts elicit several crucial questions which have profound answers for Obama.

1. How can one claim that one is no longer subject to their government simply by crossing beyond its border?

2. How can one claim that the U.S. government did not view foreigners as being subject to their foreign government when they excluded them from the Civil War conscription laws because of that very reason?

3. How can one claim that a man could be subject to two different nations, like having two different sets of parents, when the authors of the two pieces of legislation expressly stated the being subject to U.S. jurisdiction meant not being subject to a Foreign Power?

4. How can one claim that without taking the oath of Allegiance & Renunciation a foreigner would be viewed as being subject solely to U.S. authority and not to that of his own nation?

5. How can one claim that merely by living abroad one is exempt from his citizenship obligation to answer the call of duty if issued?

6. How can one claim that a foreign citizens obligation to answer his nation's call of duty somehow disappears based purely on his external geographical location on the globe?

7. If governments of the world view their citizens as bearing a natural obligation to defend their nation in emergency, how and when and where and why does that obligation terminate other than by renunciation of one's citizenship?

8. What government on Earth has ever passed a law stating that their citizens' obligation to defend their nation ends when they flee across the border into a neighboring nation?

9. What nation on Earth does not recognize the sovereign authority of other governments over their citizens who are not rightfully seeking asylum?

10. If one born subject to a foreign power (by being born of a subject father) is not subject to the American authority over those with citizenship, -and thus does not qualify under the Civil Rights Act of 1866 for U.S. citizenship, how on earth can they be claimed to be a natural born American citizen?

Anonymous said...

Art wrote; "So, h2o, the language in both naturalization acts refutes your thesis.
You are wrong, Mario and the naturalization acts are right."

That would be true if it were true, but it is false by the common sense that little children possess, but you seems to be lacking.

In MarioWorld's naturalization Act of 2010, children born abroad of white citizens are considered natural born white citizens.

Then in MarioWorld's naturalization Act of 2015, children born abroad of white citizens are considered human citizens.

How does being labeled a human make one no longer white?

The Constitution requires that one be a natural born citizen, -but of what nation? It doesn't say. Why not? Because citizenship was not tied to an as yet non-existing nation. It was tied to the sovereign State Republic to which one belonged via birth to its citizens.

By Natural Law their children belonged to them and to any and every group of which they were members; inherited membership.

How does any adult take a position that requires arguing like one with half a brain by claiming that no citizen of the United States is a natural born citizen? Or that no natural born citizen is a citizen of the United States? Such a twilight zone logic baffles the mind of anyone who has one.

The third Congress was oblivious to the purpose for the presidential eligibility language inserted in the first Nat Act, -just as you are.

They sought to prevent exactly the very error that you are making.

It's sole purpose was to protect the eligibility of Americans born abroad to be President. It had no other purpose, and neither you nor any other genius will ever come up with one. It was 100% about the presidency.

Just because the third Congress was unaware of that fact does not "prove" that Congress had any power to alter anything regarding children of Americans. IT HAD NO SUCH POWER!
SHOW ME THE AUTHORITY!!!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

I of II

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife does not understand the concept of nations having distinct borders and that when persons are born in a place, they are born subject to the jurisdiction, government, and sovereignty of the nation that claims and occupies that place. If a child is born in Canada, that child is born subject to the jurisdiction, government, and sovereignty of Canada. The U.S. Congress may choose for policy reasons to extend to that child the status of being a “citizen of the United States” at birth. But what Congress may choose to do does not and cannot deny Canada the right to treat that child, who was born in its sovereign territory, as a citizen of Canada.

Mr. Nash’s thesis of no borders would work only if the entire world operated under a system of one broad allegiance. That allegiance would have to be either to a world King or a world Congress or both. The British used such broad allegiance for the British Empire, with all persons born in the dominion of the King, i.e., in allegiance and under the protection of the English King, being declared English natural-born subjects, regardless of in which country they were born and even if born to alien parents. Remember that Calvin was born in Scotland to Scottish parents and therefore not born subject to the laws and government of England, but Lord Coke still declared him to be an English natural-born subject, simply because he was born in allegiance to and under the protection of the common King of England and Scotland.

With the American Revolution, America did away with the English notion of broad allegiance. After the Founding, American citizenship was based on being born in the specific country called the United States of America (born “in” the United States) to parents who were its citizens. The Americans did not view an alien present on its territory as being in allegiance to the United States as the English did with friendly aliens present on its territory being in allegiance to the King. This scheme promoted a system of allegiance only to the United States which is what the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers required in a natural born citizen. It was being a natural born citizen which gave the United States a perfect power over the allegiance of that person. For those who did not meet this rule of allegiance only to the United States, Congress was given power to naturalize them to be “citizens of the United States,” either at birth or after birth. But with the U.S. being part of the community of nations, Congress’s naturalization power was not a perfect power, for it was always subject to the right of other nations to exert their rights over the persons that Congress may have naturalized based on that person having been born in its territory or to its citizens or both. Furthermore, not meeting the common law definition of a natural born citizen, i.e., born in a county to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, these naturalized citizens were not and could not be natural born citizens.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

The questions (and implied answers) that Mr. Nash asks in his recent post regarding the Civil Rights Act of 1866 (“not born subject to a foreign power”) actually contradict his own thesis. He also exhibits severe confusion regarding the concept that all natural born citizens are citizens and citizens of the United States, but not all citizens or citizens of the United States are natural born citizens, and that when the Constitution calls for a natural born citizen, it does not call for a “citizen of the United States” who does not meet the common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” but rather a “natural born citizen,” who under that common law was also a citizen and “citizen of the United States” and due to later developments may also be considered a “citizen of the United States” at birth under some positive law like the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress.

So, Mr. Nash’s thesis that regardless of where a person is born, provided that the person is born to a U.S. citizen father simply does not work for the purpose for which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used a natural born citizen as being the only citizen eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. They required that a would-be President and Commander have a perfect, absolute, and sole allegiance to the United States from the moment of birth. Mr. Nash’s definition of a natural born citizen, which allows for the child to be born in allegiance and a citizen of the nation of the alien mother and of the place of foreign birth, does not accomplish that national security policy goal.

ajtelles said...

President George Washington vs. h2ooflife...

Earth to h2o... earth to h2o... earth to h2o...

You said

>> "The third Congress was oblivious
>> "to the purpose for the presidential eligibility language
>> "inserted in the first Nat Act, ... .

[No h2o, the third Congress corrected the error of the "first Nat Act"]

[...]

>> "It's sole purpose was to protect the eligibility of Americans born abroad to be President."

[No h2o, they changed the language from "natural born Citizen" to "Citizen" because the sole purpose was to DENY eligibility.]

[...]

>> "Just because the third Congress was unaware of that fact
>> "does not "prove" that Congress had any power to alter anything regarding children of Americans."

[No h2o, the third Congress WAS aware, AND it also had the constitutional "power" the alter ANY naturalization act.]

>> "IT HAD NO SUCH POWER!
>> "SHOW ME THE AUTHORITY!!!"

[No h2o, it DID have the power, and the "AUTHORITY" is the 1795 Naturalization Act "citizen" designation that President George Washington did NOT veto.]

So, h2o, “who you gonna call” as YOUR ghost buster authority if not Pres. Washington?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Anonymous said...

There are two kinds of jurisdiction. One is the authority of government combined with its power. The other is subjection to the obligations of citizenship.

The first is subjection to government, the second is to natural responsibility. Men and adults have natural responsibilities, and governments are authorized to require them to live up to their responsibilities.

Those responsibilities are not created by government. They are the result of natural bonds of connection and hierarchical obligation.

Babies are at the bottom of that hierarchy. They are not subject to government in any way since they are the beneficiaries of the protection of government. Only adults are subject, -not minors.

No legitimate government can require its minors to submit to military induction. THEY ARE EXEMPT. THEY ARE NOT SUBJECT.
The citizens in subjection are adults, particularly adult males up to middle age.

"...when persons are born in a place, they are born subject to the jurisdiction, government, and sovereignty of the nation..."

Please educate all of us ignorati as to exactly what that claim means in the real world.

If it referred to individual States, it could have a possible semblance of truth, but in regard to the national government, -it has no meaning whatsoever. IT IS A PURE FANTASY! Only parents are subject.

"Congress may choose...to extend to that child the status of being a “citizen of the United States”

No, Congress may not choose except by unconstitutional authority, which you are supporting.

Congress has ZERO say regarding the children of Americans and full say regarding children having one or two alien parents.

Show us how that is false. You can't.

You continue to falsely claim that it has such authority but you can never show a basis for it because there is none. Stop claiming that lie or prove it.

It is pathetic that one who so honors government authority and rule of law would claim an authority of government that cannot possibly be validated.

Anonymous said...

Mario proffered: "It was being a natural born citizen which gave the United States a perfect power over the allegiance of that person."

That is pie-in-the-sky talk. "perfect power over the allegiance"??? What the heck does that even mean? Nothing. Allegiance is loyalty and obedience. How does any government have power over that?

Understand this: Being a natural citizen is not about the allegiance that one has. It is about the allegiance that one does not have. One has no connection to any foreign power.

One might hate their own country, have no willingness to serve it, feel no allegiance to it and yet have zero devotion, or allegiance to any other country. With no connection to any other government, one cannot be subject to foreign influence. THAT is what the framers sought. A President could not betray his country like Benedict Arnold did if he has no other country. Arnold did, and it pre-dated his American nationality.

"For those who did not meet this rule of allegiance only to the United States, Congress was given power to naturalize them to be “citizens of the United States,”

You are in la-la land. Congress was given no authority to naturalize anyone. All immigration and naturalization was done by the sovereign State Republics. Congress had no hand in it other that making their rules all uniform.

Please show how that is false and you are right. You can't yet you are forced into that corner by the dogma that says Congress could naturalize American children who you call aliens. That is logic bent to the breaking point.

Anonymous said...

Mario's part II response is an obfuscation of evasion and false characterization.
When he can't bring himself to agree with one with whom he disagrees, he instead creates false characterizations of what they said or what they meant.
That way, the real issues are glossed over entirely in favor of false issues of his own invention.

He claimed "he actually contradicts his own thesis" and then he proceeds to totally ignore showing how in the world I did that.

It's like a red-flag tactic to distract from the truth of what was shared. He is a master at that.

He next says "He also exhibits severe confusion regarding..." and then proceeds to make the same point that I made, only from the opposite perspective. The only one who is confused and confusing is the one who misstates so much of what he reads.

"They required...a perfect, absolute, and sole allegiance to the United States from the moment of birth."

Again with the pipe-dream of babies having allegiance. From down here on the ground, Mario, not up there in your royal ivory tower, please explain, I BEG YOU!!!, how the hell does a baby have allegiance???

Are they fully cognizant from birth just like an adult? I'm confused. Please set me straight.
Get out your royal encyclopedia and teach us how babies are CITIZENS and have allegiance and responsibilities and loyalties.

"Mr. Nash’s definition of a natural born citizen, which allows for the child to be born in allegiance and a citizen of the nation of the alien mother and of the place of foreign birth, does not accomplish that national security policy goal."

I don't define an NBC, the English language does that just fine with no help from human pontification.
Plus, you know for a fact that I have stated multiple times that no American man could have an alien wife since she promptly became an American upon taking the wedding vows.
So what motivates you to claim that I take a position that you know I do not take?

Plus you make it worse by claiming that I claim a baby acquires the dreaded foreign "allegiance" by the power of the foreign birth which I totally reject and repeatedly state is irrelevant. BABIES DO NOT HAVE ALLEGIANCE! Geography does not change that fact.

Why must you mischaracterize everything that I write? For one reason; to discredit anything that fails to support your dogma. It must reign supreme.

Anonymous said...

Art, you provided not a single tiny bit of verification of the delusions that you believe to be true. You do not support your own claims because they are unsupportable by anything you will ever find or have found.

You childishly pretend that by merely stating your dogmatic doctrinal beliefs that they somehow are made substantial when they are as substantial as air.

You are unaware of how far from the truth you are because you believe in one falsehood on top of another, all reinforcing the others, like a Ponzi scheme. But your foundation beliefs are not only wrong, but they are supportive of totalitarian government authority by which the STATE is sovereign and the People are subject.

The Nat. Act of 1795 changed nothing except the open declaration of the truth about the presidential eligibility of all American children.
If Jefferson had a son in Paris, he would have been a natural born citizen of the Commonwealth of Virginia just like his father, and secondarily a national of the American union of State republics.

If you do not have the right to pass your American citizenship to your children, then you live in a country that is a nice bird cage.

The People in that country do not have unalienable rights. They have the rights that the government decides to allow them, beginning with national membership.

That is not our reality. We Americans are the equal of kings. We carry our sovereignty with us. Our natural rights to not end at the water's edge.
Like kings, it does not matter where our sons and daughters are born. They belong to us and to our people by their natural connection. They inherit our nationality. They are natural citizens of our nation. They are born that way and do not acquire their status by government permission.

Anyone who claims that American children have no inherent right of American citizenship is a traitor to American principles. May a plague be upon you, traitor. Repent and grasp the error of your dogma.

American Citizens are supreme over laws and government because we created them both. They are our servants and we can change both, but they cannot change us nor our God-given rights.

The right of national membership is more primal than any other right except the right to live, and yet you surrender it to Big Brother. Why the hell do you do that?

What right will you surrender next, the right to bear arms, or free speech?
It's a dangerous doctrine you're preaching.

ajtelles said...

A whole lotta nothin'...

Hey, h2o, you sure are knowledgeable about a whole lotta nothin'.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "OpenID h2ooflife said on April 15, 2014 at 2:46 AM -

>> "Art, you provided not a single tiny bit of verification of the delusions that you believe to be true.
>> "You do not support your own claims because they are unsupportable by anything you will ever find or have found.

[...]

>> "The Nat. Act of 1795 changed nothing
>> "except the open declaration of the truth about
>> "the presidential eligibility of all American children.


>> "If Jefferson had a son in Paris, he would have been a natural born citizen of the Commonwealth of Virginia just like his father,

>> "and secondarily a national of the American union of State republics ... ."

- - - - - - - - - -

Naturalization Act of Jan. 29, 1795
Repealed the Naturalization Act of March 26, 1790

Chap. XX—An Act to establish an uniform rule of Naturalization; and to repeal the act heretofore passed on that subject.

[...]

"Section 3"

>> "And be it further enacted, That the children of persons duly naturalized, dwelling within the United States, and being under the age of twenty-one years, at the time of such naturalization;

>> "and the children of citizens of the United States,
>> "born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States,
>> "shall be considered as citizens of the United States:


>> "Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons, whose fathers have never been resident in the United States: Provided also,

>> "That no person heretofore proscribed by any state, or who has been legally convicted of having joined the army of Great Britain, during the late war, shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid, without the consent of the legislature of the state, in which such person was proscribed."

- - - - - - - - - -

Hey, h2o,it is YOU who has NOT provided
>> "... a single tiny bit of verification of the delusions that you believe to be true."

Other than that, h2o, you are definitely creative... but there is no life in your creative writin' on April 15, 2014 at 2:46 AM about what "you believe to be true" because what you believe to be true is a whole lotta nothin'.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Anonymous said...

"and the children of U.S. citizens born abroad...shall be considered as natural born citizens,"

What we have here are three very distinct realities. The first is that the members of the first Congress of the United States were the most intelligent, honest, patriotic, philosophical and faithful (to the principles of Liberty that the Constitution & Bill of Rights sought to protect) of any body that was ever constituted.

They were the ones who passed the Bill of Rights to defend their American freedoms, and they were the ones to recognize that those freedoms were in jeopardy when outside of the boundaries of the States.
They recognized the absence in the Constitution of guarantees of their liberties and sought to redress the vulnerabilities that resulted from the lack of clear and unequivocal defense of their natural rights.

The first rights they protected were their rights and liberties within their own State republics and aggregate nation, and the second protection they secured (for their progeny) was their natural American right of national membership if one happened to enter the world within the borders of a sovereign foreign realm.

As emphatically as they defended their in-country rights via the Bill of Rights, they equally defended their external right to be recognized as natural born citizens of the united States regardless of birth location.

None of them were interested in seeing American sons denied their natural birthright of full citizenship, -which includes presidential eligibility, and hence their mandate that such American children be recognized as that which they are.
That language was specifically aimed at those with a jus soli mindset who were oblivious to the principles of Natural Rights and natural membership.

Who among you who pretends to have a brain can sit on your high horse and proclaim like a fool that that first Congress, and President Washington as well, were a bunch of ignorant idiots for failing to understand what you so clearly "understand" to be "true"?

Either those most admirable and intelligent of men were idiots or else you are idiots. There are no other options folks.

Who cares to explain why they were such idiots? Why and how did they go so "wrong"? EXPLAIN!!! -or else repent from your errant heresy.

ajtelles said...

You're funny h2o...
... is there something in the water?

On April 15, 2014 at 10:26 AM, h200flife said -

>> "Who among you who pretends to have a brain
>> "can sit on your high horse and proclaim
>> "like a fool that that first Congress,
>> "and President Washington as well,
>> "were a bunch of ignorant idiots
>> "for failing to understand
>> "what you so clearly "understand"
>> "to be "true"?"

>> "Either those most admirable and intelligent of men were idiots
>> "or else you are idiots.

>> "There are no other options folks."

>> "Who cares to explain why they were such idiots?
>> "Why and how did they go so "wrong"?
>> "EXPLAIN!!! -or else repent from your errant heresy."

- - - - - - - - - -

Hey, h2o, it is YOU who is calling the 3rd Congress "idiots" because it is YOU who does not accept the 1795 Naturalization Act "citizen' designation that repealed and replaced the 1790 Naturalization Act "natural born Citizen" designation.

Hey, h2o, what is YOUR source for declaring ipso facto that the wise 1795 3rd Congress members were "idiots" for correcting their OWN unintentional error that some of them made as members of the 1790 1st Congress?

Hey, h2o, your own words are appropriate, because,
>> "Either those most admirable and intelligent of men [of the 1st and 3rd Congresses] were idiots
>> "or else you are [an] idiot.

Yes, h2o,

>> "There are no other options folks."

So, h2o,

>> "Why and how did they [the 3rd Congress] go so "wrong"?
>> "EXPLAIN!!!
>> "-or else repent
>> "from your [own historical revisionism and ] errant heresy."

Other than that, h2o, you are very creative... but there are no life sustaining 'original intent' sources in your creative historical revisionism.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

I of II

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife’s attack on the Third Congress and President George Washington and its removal of “natural born citizen” and replacing it with “citizen of the United States” has no basis in reality or law.

In case Mr. Nash missed it, the Third Congress in making that change through the Naturalization Act of 1795 was led by then-representative James Madison (the “Father of the Constitution”), who headed the Congressional committee that studied the matter and made the surgical change from “natural born citizen” (existing in the Naturalization Act of 1790) to “citizen of the United States” (in the Naturalization Act of 1795). The new law was approved by President George Washington. Before approving this new law, Congress, Madison, and Washington knew quite well that Article II said that only natural born citizens were eligible to be future Presidents and Commanders in Chief.

After the 1795 Act, Congress continued to make things harder for aliens. If you will read the whole Naturalization Act of 1802, you will note that Congress made it harder for aliens to become “citizens of the United States.” It now required, in additional to what the previous naturalization acts required, that aliens declare an intention to become a “citizen of the United States” at least three years prior to being admitted as such a citizen and that they renounced forever by oath of allegiance, fidelity, and any title of nobility to a foreign nation or prince, having to specifically name the foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty; upon actual application to become a citizen they declare under oath to a competent court that they renounced forever all allegiance, fidelity, and any title of nobility to a foreign nation or prince, having to specifically name the foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty; increased residency in the United States prior to admission as a citizen from 2 years to 5 years, with having to provide objective evidence of such residency; required that aliens expressly renounce all titles or orders of nobility in the court to which they made application for citizenship; and that any alien wanting to become a citizen of the United States not be a native citizen, denizen, or subject of any nation at war with the United States. The act also grandfathered those aliens who were residing in and under the jurisdiction the United States before January 29, 1795 so as to grant them the benefit of having to satisfy the less stringent 2-year residency standards of the Naturalization Act of 1795, but with having to satisfy the new requirement to renounce all foreign allegiance and titles of nobility. Finally, the Act also established a system whereby each adult “free white person” alien (minors through their parents or guardians) upon arriving to the United States and wanting to become a citizen thereof was now required to register with a competent court the date of his or her entry into the United States and obtain from the court a certificate evidencing his or her registration which certificate the alien was now required to exhibit to the court to which he or she made application to be naturalized as evidence of when the alien arrived in the United States.
After Congress addressed how alien adults were to become “citizens of the United States,” it moved on to their minor children. Critically important is the fact that Congress did not exclude from its treatment children that may have been born in the United States to alien parents. Rather, it made specific requirements regarding those exact children. This proves that early Congress did not view children born in the United States to alien parents as citizens, let alone as natural born citizens. Rather, it viewed them as alien born and in need of naturalization along with their adult alien parents.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Congress continued the same language as contained in the Acts of 1790 and 1795 that “the children of persons duly naturalized . . . being under the age of twenty one years at the time of their parents being so naturalized or admitted to the rights of citizenship shall if dwelling in the United States be considered as citizens of the United States and the children of persons who now are or have been citizens of the United States though born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States be considered as citizens of the United States. . .”

So, as we can see, Congress continued to treat children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization just like their alien parents needed naturalization. For confirmation of this treatment, see the James McClure citizenship case of 1811 (the James Madison Administration explained under the Naturalization Act of 1802, children born in the United States after July 4, 1776 to alien parents were alien born and in need of naturalization).

It also now said that children of U.S. citizens “though born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States” were to be considered only as “citizens of the United States,” and not as “natural born citizens.” This change is entirely consistent with Congress becoming stricter with how it gave to aliens the right to become a “citizen of the United States.”

The Naturalization Act of 1795 by the Third Congress and those of 1790 and 1802 are incontrovertible evidence that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers viewed children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization (so much for Jack Maskell’s thesis). They also show that Congress viewed children born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to U.S. citizen parents also as needing naturalization which Congress provide through the act which made those children “citizen of the United States” at birth. (again, so much for Jack Maskell’s thesis). These acts also convincingly demonstrate that the early Congress, many of whom were Founders and Framers, defined a natural born citizen as a child born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This child was the only child who Congress did not seek to naturalize through its naturalization acts. No naturalization was needed of that child because that child was a natural born citizen (and again, so much for Jack Maskell’s thesis).

ajtelles said...

Easy to understand “explication de texte”...

Mario, the authors of the 1790 and the 1795 Naturalization Acts wrote words that were to be understood as THEY intended their words to be understood by their contemporaries AND their posterity, including you, me, h2ooflife, aka h2o, and Obama-birthers S...fast and Unknown and Dr. Conspiracy, and et alii.

An example of their understandable words being understood as THEY intended their common sense original intent words to be understood is your own explication of their words on April 15, 2014 at 5:07 PM.

However, your planting of "explication de texte" seed thoughts for h2o and Obama-birthrs seems to be having the same effect as if you were intentionally doing "fallow ground" preparation, i.e., as if you were plowing land without seeding it afterward.

For those who do not have access to a dictionary while reading this, here is the definition.

explication de texte ... n.
"A method of literary criticism in which aspects of a written work are analyzed in order to understand its structure and meanings." In simple "what does THAT mean" terms, the dictionary definition adds, "the explanation of (a) text."

So, Mario, since you definitely are planting "explication de texte" seed thoughts, maybe the problem is the ground itself.

However, this should be VERY easy to understand, even for h2o.

>> "The Naturalization Act of 1795 by the Third Congress and those of 1790 and 1802
>> "are incontrovertible evidence that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers
>> "viewed children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization
>. "(so much for Jack Maskell’s thesis).

>> "They also show that Congress viewed children born out of the jurisdiction of the United States
>> "to U.S. citizen parents also as needing naturalization
>> "which Congress provide through the act which made those children “citizen of the United States” at birth.
>> "(again, so much for Jack Maskell’s thesis).

>> "These acts also convincingly demonstrate that the early Congress,
>> "many of whom were Founders and Framers,
>> "defined a natural born citizen as
>> "a child born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

>> "This child was the only child who Congress did not seek to naturalize through its naturalization acts.
>> "No naturalization was needed of that child
>> "because that child was a natural born citizen
>> "(and again, so much for Jack Maskell’s thesis)."

- - - - - - - - - -

So, h2o, Obama-birthers and et alii, what is NOT clear about the first Congresses 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” designation that corrected the third Congresses 1790 Naturalization Act “natural born Citizen” designation error?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Anonymous said...

Art wrote: "what is YOUR source for declaring ipso facto that the wise 1795 3rd Congress members were "idiots" for correcting their OWN unintentional error that some of them made as members of the 1790 1st Congress?

Your dogmatic delusion has left your thinking ability as fluid as a rock. Only an idiot would assume that I considered the 3rd Congress to have idiotically erred. They DID NOT ERR.

I will repeat once again for those with an uptake handicap; they were unaware of the purpose for presidential eligibility protection being included in the first Nat. Act.
They assumed only that American children were mentioned in the first naturalization act in order to prevent boneheads working as government officers at American ports from doing to children of Americans what was done to Wong Kim Ark.
They didn't know that the first Congress intended to protect the unalienable right of all American children to be eligible to be President, because some special children were likely to result from American Ambassadors, as well as American merchants, scholars, and law students in Europe while they were abroad.

Why in God's name would they not want to protect against the ignorant disenfranchisement of the cream of the crop of American men? PLEASE!!! GIVE US JUST ONE GOOD REASON!

And also explain exactly how and why the first Congress was too stupid to recognize an error that is gigantic to those of the royal dogma of required native-birth.

I'm still waiting for your brilliant elucidation on how they, and President Washington, could have been so blind and ignorant.

A "mistake" you foolishly claim. Did they all just have a brain spasm? Were they smoking Crack? What explains your theory of a huge mental lapse by the most conscientious Congress in history?

You must be smoking crack to think that their attention to the wording of everything they authored and passed was any less than that devoted to the Constitution.

They were the first Congress EVER, -passing the first laws EVER! You can be damn sure that they were determined to get everything right and not leave the kind of pathetic legacy that you foolishly and disrespectfully ascribe to them.

ajtelles said...

Oooooops...

Correction.

This is not correct.

>> "... the first Congresses 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” designation that corrected the third Congresses 1790 Naturalization Act “natural born Citizen” designation error?"

This is correct.

>> "So, h2o, Obama-birthers and et alii, what is NOT clear about

>> "the third Congresses 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” designation that corrected the first Congresses 1790 Naturalization Act “natural born Citizen” designation error?"



Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "that early Congress did not view children born in the United States to alien parents as citizens, let alone as natural born citizens." That is 100% correct.

"Rather, it viewed them as alien born and in need of naturalization along with their adult alien parents."

As I've previously informed you, that is 100% incorrect.

The children of citizens were automatically the same as their father. Whatever citizenship he possessed, they did also. If he was an American then so were they. It's called jus sanguinis. Natural membership via blood connection to a parent member. Look it up some time.
Foreign children were NOT in need of naturalization. Their FATHER was in need of naturalization. Through him, his whole family became Americans, including his wife.

I've informed you previously of the fact that foreign wives are not mentioned in the Nat Acts. Why???? Did they remain foreigners 'though married to a new American?

Their citizenship didn't need any law to be acquired. They were naturally deemed to be Americans, like their husband, because families only had one nationality; that of the head of the family.

So why were children mentioned but not wives? Because half of the children were MALE! They would be endowed with full citizenship rights that deserved being protected by written law. They could be President even (if born post-naturalization). Wives had no civic rights to protect, nor daughters; only sons.

And what citizenship did the naturalized foreign father possess? STATE CITIZENSHIP in the sovereign STATE republic that naturalized him. That State was part of the Union, making him a U.S. citizen. But his sisters, mother, and minor brothers were NOT true citizens but were merely U.S. Nationals. Citizens have rights that nationals do not have.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "the less stringent 2-year residency standards of the Naturalization Act of 1795"

I seem to recall that it was 5 years, not two, although two were required before being allowed to submit an intent to naturalize, which would require waiting another 3 years.

"Congress did not exclude...children...born in the United States to alien parents. Rather, it made specific requirements regarding those exact children."

Come on Mario, you know that is false, -or simply incorrectly worded. The wording of the act makes NO SPECIFIC MENTION of place of birth, -only residency. So, -saying "exact children" is overblown.
But your point about them being aliens is correct and toxic to Obama, although obamunists will hang on by their fingertips to the fact that they are NOT specifically mentioned. They view is that they were not mentioned because some or several States regarded their native-born sons of the soil to be States citizens and thus they would not need to be "naturalized" since they were born being citizens.

What it all comes down to is one of two perspectives; that of a jus soli permitting State or that of the national government.
There was never anything put in writing by the national government which acknowledged the American citizenship of children of aliens, -regardless of recognition at the State level.
As we all know, Washington DC did not recognized dual-citizenship. Hence children of foreigners were foreigners until the father became an American; regardless of where they were born.
They were subject to their father who was subject to a Foreign Power, with the family having only one nationality, foreign.

Anonymous said...

Mario's doctrine of NBC native-birth necessity evaporates in the light of the actual truth about things he pontificates on. They reinforce each other but are all predicated on erroneous un-American notions.
He wrote:
"Congress viewed children born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to U.S. citizen parents also as needing naturalization which Congress provide through the act which made those children “a citizen of the United States” at birth."

Every assertion in that statement is incorrect.
1. Children do not need and cannot acquire naturalization. They need parents who are Americans so they can be Americans through them; -derivative citizens, -not naturalized citizens.

2. Congress provided nothing to alien-born children because Congress was not in the naturalization business, -and had no authority to enter it.

That was strictly a State matter and was under State sovereignty.
Once Congress had written and passed a rule to make the 13 State naturalization statutes "uniform" it was done. It was all then up to the States and localities to carry out the naturalization of foreigners.

That being true, Mario's claim of Congressional "power" dissolves, and it is seen as impossible that Congress could "provide through the act [that] which made those children “a citizen of the United States” at birth."

1. Congress had no authority.

2. American children needed nothing from Congress in order to be that which they were born being; namely natural born American citizens.

3. Even if Congress viewed them as aliens, which is false, it had no power to change that status except by a State naturalizing their American father!!!!

See the problem with that whole dogma? It falls apart when aligned with reality.

4. One must be brain-dead to believe that all natural born citizens are not citizens of the United States. When, oh when will someone explain exactly how addressing someone by the label of a group of which they are a member alters their status of membership in a sub-group?

I have a million dollars for the genius who can explain how that works.
Explain how those who complete the BUD/S (Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL) Training and who are considered as Navy Seals are then considered as no longer Navy Seals if addressed or referred to an members of the United States Navy.
Please, someone, anyone, step up to the plate and explain. You can do it, right? Give it a try. Or admit that the level of your mental dysfunction makes 1st graders look like geniuses in comparison.

Anonymous said...

In the jus soli universe in which Mario & company, as well as all obamunists live, pure jus sanguinis does not exist as the principle on which American citizenship has been based since the revolution. Both sides kowtow to the authority of decisively necessary or sufficient native-birth.

Mario's clan goes for full jus soli, which includes the added factor of full parental citizenship status in the national government under which their child was born.

But the obama defenders reject that historical requirement and worship only the golden calf of citizenship from birth by any means available.

In neither world does pure natural membership exist because if it does, then they would be required to acknowledge the true meaning of the word "natural" in natural born citizen.

That means that tribe-level relationships have no comparison to national membership. So... the people of Japan are not natural nationals of the nation of Japan. The people of the Philippines are not natural nationals of the Philippine nation. The natives of Hawaii were not natural nationals of the Kingdom of Hawaii.

Natural national membership cannot be allowed to exist. All citizenship is by human design, choice, selection, fiat, law, tradition, doctrine. No one is naturally a member of their parents' country. One cannot inherit their parents' membership. It must be bestowed by government authority, written or unwritten. No one has a natural right to it.

What purpose does that distorted view of reality serve? To validate a doctrine promulgated as an iron-clad, Supreme Court-approved means of being a national citizen.

Why is that considered important? Because it can be claimed that an inescapable truth, -an overarching principle of membership can be identified and defined and validated by the high court as the one and only meaning of the words "natural born citizen".

Such an authority clearly invalidates Obama, but it has a built-in added aside which puts up an impenetrable barrier to Americans who had the audacity to not get themselves born within U.S. borders. It tells them; "Tough luck, loser! You may be my brother, maybe even my twin, but you are NOT a natural born citizen nor eligible to be President, -in fact you are not even an American at all! -except by permission of Big Brother.
YOU ARE AN ALIEN because of the ground on which our mother delivered you.

You need the permission of Almighty Government in order for us to accept you as one of us, since you are basically, -perhaps "naturally" a foreigner (regardless of being born to parents whose ancestors date back to the Puritans).

And all of the sheep said: "Okay. As long as the government says so, or as long as Mario says that the government's authorities say so. Either way. We accept."

What a pathetic excuse for adult thought. So juvenile. But guess what? Natural actually does mean natural, regardless of ignorance and perverted logic.

ajtelles said...

1/1

You're silly h2o...

On April 15, 2014 at 10:44 PM, h2ooflife said...

>> "Art wrote: "what is YOUR source for declaring ipso facto that the wise 1795 3rd Congress members were "idiots" for correcting their OWN unintentional error that some of them made as members of the 1790 1st Congress?

- - - - - - - - - -

[...]

>> "Only an idiot would assume that I considered the 3rd Congress to have idiotically erred.
>> "They DID NOT ERR.

[YES, h2o,
"they", the third Congress, did NOT err when they correctly repealed the "natural born Citizen" designation language of the 1790 first Congress and replaced the “natural born Citizen” designation with the correct "citizen" designation. If the “citizen” designation was NOT “correct” they would NOT have replace “natural born Citizen” with “citizen.”

Right?

"Only an idiot would assume" that the 1795 third Congress erred when they inserted "citizen" in the place of the 1790 first Congresses “natural born Citizen” language.]


[...]

>> "they were unaware of the purpose for presidential eligibility protection being included in the first Nat. Act."

[NO, h2o,
"they", the 1795 third Congress, were NOT unaware, THAT is why they changed the 1790 first Congresses "natural born Citizen" language with the 1795 third Congresses "citizen" language.]


>> "They assumed only that American children were mentioned in the first naturalization act in order to prevent boneheads working as government officers at American ports from doing to children of Americans what was done to Wong Kim Ark."

[NO, h2o,
"they", the 1795 third Congress, did NOT assume that "... American children were mentioned" by the 1790 first Congress to "prevent" something in the 1800s, such as Wong Kim Ark.]


>> "They didn't know that the first Congress intended to protect the unalienable right of all American children to be eligible to be President, because some special children were likely to result from American Ambassadors, as well as American merchants, scholars, and law students in Europe while they were abroad."

[NO, h2o,
"they", the 1795 third Congress, DID "know" the intention of the 1790 first Congress, THAT is why the 1795 third Congress repealed the 1790 Naturalization Act and replaced it with the 1795 Naturalization Act.

The 1795 third Congress did NOT "know" what you assert, and the text itself has NO such explicit language that you assert is implicitly there]


>> "Why in God's name would they not want to protect against the ignorant disenfranchisement of the cream of the crop of American men?

>> "PLEASE!!!
>> "GIVE US JUST ONE GOOD REASON!"

[NO, h2o,
it is YOU who does NOT have "ONE GOOD REASON" for insisting that the 1795 third Congress did NOT know the original intent of the 1790 first Congress.]


>> "And also explain exactly how and why the first Congress was too stupid to recognize an error that is gigantic to those of the royal dogma of required native-birth."

[NO, h2o,
the first Congress was NOT "too stupid" when they inserted "natural born Citizen" in the 1790 Naturalization Act.

They were simply human and missed the implications and ramifications that would complicate the original intent of Article II Section 1 Clause 5. The 1790 first Congress simply did not notice the conflict with the explicit "natural born Citizen" constitutional requirement in Article II which was understood in 1787-1789 as requiring ONLY birth on U.S. soil and jurisdictions, and ONLY birth to two U.S. Citizen parents.

ajtelles said...

2/2

You're silly h2o...

THAT is why the 1795 third Congress, after they noticed the conflict with the Constitution language in Article II, they repealed the first Congresses 1790 Naturalization Act "natural born Citizen" language and replaced it with the third Congresses 1795 Naturalization Act "citizen" language.

As you know, h2o, by replacing the 1790 first Congresses “natural born Citizen” language with “citizen”, the 1795 third Congress did NOT alter the U.S. Constitution itself because an act of Congress can NOT amend the language, or the intent of the language, in the U.S. Constitution.]


>> "I'm still waiting for your brilliant elucidation on how they, and President Washington, could have been so blind and ignorant.

[NO, h2o,
"they", the 1790 first Congress, and President Washington who accepted the "natural born Citizen" language, were NOT "blind and ignorant".

Also, the 1795 third Congress, with President Washington's agreement, who repealed and replaced the three words "natural born Citizen" with the single word "citizen" were NOT "blind and ignorant" when they changed the language.

So, h2o, it is YOU who must elucidate why the 1795 third Congress and President Washington, who did not veto the change in language, erred in replacing the 1790 first Congresses "natural born Citizen" language with the 1795 third Congresses "citizen" language.]


>> "A "mistake" you foolishly claim.
>> "Did they all just have a brain spasm?
>> "Were they smoking Crack?
>> "What explains your theory of a huge mental lapse by the most conscientious Congress in history?"

[NO, h2o,
Your foolish "mistake" theory is just childish and silly, and it does not warrant a response]


>> "You must be smoking crack to think that their attention to the wording of everything they authored and passed was any less than that devoted to the Constitution."

[NO, h2o,
you are just simply silly, and no response is necessary to such silliness.]


>> "They were the first Congress EVER, -passing the first laws EVER! You can be damn sure that they were determined to get everything right and not leave the kind of pathetic legacy that you foolishly and disrespectfully ascribe to them.

[NO, h2o,
you are blind to the obvious, and your analysis of the text is not thoughtful.

It is obvious that the 1795 third Congress changed the language of the 1790 first Congress for a very good Article II Section 1 Clause 5 original intent reason, so until you get in touch with the original intent of "natural born Citizen" in Article II, your analysis of the differences in the language in the 1790 first Congress and the 1795 third Congress will remain unpersuasive and so not convincing. You are not only NOT convincing, you are also NOT persuasive.

Your argument, h2o, is with the 1795 third Congress, and President Washington who agreed with the 1795 third Congress, when the 1795 "citizen" language replaced the 1790 "natural born Citizen" language.]


- - - - - - - - - -

Other than all of that, h2o, you are very creative with your historical revisionism.

However, in promoting your historical revisionism, you do not adduce any original intent source to support your malaprop thesis that the 1795 third Congress did not know what it was doing when the 1795 third Congress repealed the 1790 first Congresses Naturalization Act, and the 1795 Naturalization Act "citizen" designation replaced the first Congresses 1790 Naturalization Act "natural born Citizen" designation.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

MichaelN said...

h2ooflife said...

"In the jus soli universe in which Mario & company, as well as all obamunists live, pure jus sanguinis does not exist as the principle on which American citizenship has been based since the revolution."
--------------------

Wrong! ................ again.

"....the children of citizens of the United States, born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States"

Repeatedly posting your nonsensical theories, does not make them true.

You have been repeatedly shown that you are WRONG......... just be graceful and accept the truth in this matter.

i.e. BOTH jus soli and jus sanguinis are ESSENTIAL and NECESSARY REQUIREMENTS for a "citizen of the United States" to be eligible for the office of POTUS.

No amount of your ad nauseam nonsense posted here or on your blog will ever change this PROVEN FACT.

Anonymous said...

A ridiculous fact about this blog's comments has just come to mind. It's a case of talking past each other, with Mario being the prime perpetrator.

Art has repeatedly belabored for the obamunists the fact that no child born in England was a natural born subject unless born subject to the king by birth to an obedient subject father, meaning one not in subjection to another ruler, with native-birth alone not being sufficient to produce a subject.

And what has been Mario's response? To totally ignore what everyone else agrees with. Why? Because he stands on the doctrine that jus soli only required native-birth alone, but he won't admit that.
Instead he says we must turn to the common law of nations and away from British common law to understand the term that has no connection to the actual words of Vattel.

Vattel espoused the view that children naturally inherit the nationality of their father (the family head) without regard to where they were born (though nearly all are naturally born where their parents live, and not in a foreign nation).

So... What Art points out is in fact identical to what Mario claims is only true of a law of nations doctrine; birth within the borders of the nation of one's subject parents. THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE! Comprendes?

Mario's invented law of nations citizenship is the same as the English royal subjectship! But Mario has jumped on the coincidence of Vattel's translated French writing containing the unrelated English phrase; natural born citizen, which Mario then "defined" as a "definition" of the law of nations which the Supreme Court "endorsed" in their dicta opinion as being post-revolution American law, and therefore we all can bow low in gratitude to the high court for "providing" us with a "definition" (that they did NOT provide) and so now we can all go home knowing with certainty that the U.S. Supreme Court says that Obama is not a natural born citizen and Mario has saved the day by discovering and disseminating this incontestable gospel truth.

The only problem is that this gospel is a fantasy, a false gospel based on false logic, false assertions, and erroneous conclusions.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

You do not like my saying that a child who becomes a “citizen of the United States” after birth derivatively through his or her parents is in effect a naturalized citizen. Well, I guess, you also disagree with U.S. Sen. Thomas F. Bayard.

Attorney A.P. Hinman challenged Arthur during his Vice Presidential bid saying that he was not born in the United States. No one argued that even if he were born in the United States, he was still not an Article II “natural born Citizen” because of his father’s foreign citizenship at the time of his birth which also made his mother an alien. Hence, the Chester Arthur example is not and cannot be treated as any precedent since the nation was not aware of the truth about his father’s and mother’s non-U.S. citizenship status at the time of his birth. See the article by Attorney Leo Donofrio at
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/urgent-historical-breakthrough-proof-chester-arthur-concealed-he-was-a-british-subject-at-birth/.

What is also important to note is that Hinman wrote to his senator in 1881, asking him what was the “construction” of the “natural born Citizen” clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. Here is the letter exchange:

New York, January 7th, 1881.

Hon. THOS. F. BAYARD, U. S.

Senator.

DEAR SIR:--What is the construction of Article II., Sec. I, Clause 5, of the Constitution of the United States--that
“ No person, except a natural-born citizen, etc., shall be
eligible, etc."***
Yours respectfully,

A. P. HINMAN

***
Senate of the United States.

City of Washington, January 10th, 1881

A. P. HINMAN, Esq., New York.

DEAR SIR :--In response to your letter of the 7th instant-
the term” natural-born citizen,” as used in the Constitution
and Statutes of the U. S., is held to be a native of
the U. S.

The naturalization by law of a father before his child
attains the age of twenty-one, would be naturalization of
such minor.

Yours respectfully,

T. F. BAYARD (emphasis in the original)”

A.P. Hinman, How a British Subject Became President of the United States 89 (1884).

In responding to a question about the meaning of a natural born citizen, the Senator first stated that the child had to be a “native of the U.S.” He then also included the citizenship status of the child’s father. He explained the then-existing naturalization law that applied to minors. In his explanation, Senator Bayard did not mention whether the son was born in the United States or abroad. This shows that place of birth of the child did not make a child a citizen when the child was born to alien parents. Whether the child was born in the United States or abroad, the result would be the same if the child was born to alien parents. If the father was not born in the United States and not a U.S. citizen at the time of his child’s birth, the son, whether born in the United States or abroad, was also born a non-U.S. citizen and remained an alien until the father naturalized which by derivative right also made his child a U.S. citizen but only if the father so naturalized before the child turned 21 years old and if the child was then dwelling in the United States. We know that under naturalization laws, after turning the age of majority, the child had to naturalize in his or her own right and not derivatively through his or her father. Since Senator Bayard had prefaced his answer with the need that a child needed to be “a native of the U.S.,” we can concluded that the Senator was telling Hinman that a child born to an alien father who became a U.S. citizen only upon his father’s naturalization or on his own if done after his or her majority was a naturalized citizen and not a “native of the U.S.” Indeed, he told Hinman that a child born in the United States or out of it to alien parents was not a "native" citizen. That child was therefore not a “natural born citizen.” In short, any child who was born in the United States to an alien father would need naturalization and could be a naturalized citizen but not a “natural born citizen.”

ajtelles said...

Silly...

ON April 16, 2014 at 5:51 PM, h2ooflife, aka h2o, wrote something silly, again.

>> "Art has repeatedly
>> "belabored for the obamunists
>> "the fact
>> "that no child born in England
>> "was a natural born subject
>> "unless born subject to the king
>> "by birth to an obedient subject father,
>> "meaning one not in subjection to another ruler,
>> "with native-birth alone
>> "not being sufficient to produce a subject."

- - - - - - - - - -

Hey, h2o, that's not historical revisionism that you are so good at.

What you wrote is totally, absolutely, 100%, fabricated rubbish, crapola, dung, a stinkin' and steamin' pile of cow pie on a hot day.

You're too silly to respond to as long as you are in fantasy land.

All your tripe (something of no value) deserves is a repeat of an earlier comment to your silliness, on April 16, 2014 at 11:40 AM.

>> [Your argument, h2o, is with the 1795 third Congress, and President Washington who agreed with the 1795 third Congress, when the 1795 "citizen" language replaced the 1790 "natural born Citizen" language.]

>> "Other than all of that, h2o, you are very creative with your historical revisionism.

>> "However, in promoting your historical revisionism,
>> "you do not adduce any original intent source
>> "to support your malaprop thesis
>> "that the 1795 third Congress did not know what it was doing
>> "when the 1795 third Congress repealed the 1790 first Congresses Naturalization Act,
>> "and the 1795 Naturalization Act "citizen" designation
>> "replaced the first Congresses 1790 Naturalization Act "natural born Citizen" designation."

- - - - - - - - -

Hey, h2o, what not try to simply do a point-counterpoint instead of traipsing into fantasy land and wondering why common sense defenders of the original intent of the original birthers who were the Founders, Framer, Ratifiers, do not go into la la land with you.

For example, did the 1795 third Congress, with President Washington's approval, repeal the 1790 Naturalization Act of the first Congress and replace "natural born Citizen" with "citizen" in the 1795 Naturalization Act?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

That is a simple question, h2o.

If you can't handle the historical truth, h2o, your arcane (flying solo) historical revisionism will always be rejected by informed people who are original intent birthers, and by the Obamamunists who are the collectivist agenda driven Obama-birthers.

Man, h2o, you sure waste a lot of intellectual energy on a whole lotta nothin' but a steamin' pile of intellectual cow pies.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

Citizens are either (1) born natural as such or (2) naturalized as such, either at birth or after birth.

The Constitution gives to Congress the power to naturalize by statute aliens to be “citizens of the United States.” Because Congress can define who the “citizens of the United States” are, it can by statute indirectly determine who may be members of its own houses, the House of Representatives or the Senate. But the power to naturalize does not include the power to make anyone a natural born citizen. Hence, Congress cannot by statute determine who may be a natural born citizen, which would not only be an usurpation of power it does not have and a violation of separation of powers, but also be a change to the Constitution without constitutional amendment involving who may be President.

Prior to U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)’s interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment, Congress had always seen fit to naturalize after birth a qualifying child born in the United States to alien parents. Even until today, Congress has always seen fit to naturalize at birth a qualifying child born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to U.S. citizen parents. Clearly, Congress since 1790 never viewed either of those children as citizens who were born natural as such. Rather, it viewed them as children who were born alien and naturalized as “citizens of the United States” either at birth or after birth, as the case may be, by its own naturalization acts.

Your personal views, not based on law or fact or both, cannot change this reality. Can I ask you to simply not post repetitive comments that are just a repeat of your personal views without providing Founding era sources and confirming U.S. Supreme Court opinions or other authoritative sources that support your position?

MichaelN said...

Mario said to Stranger, Nash, h2ooflife

"..I ask you to simply not post repetitive comments that are just a repeat of your personal views without providing Founding era sources and confirming U.S. Supreme Court opinions or other authoritative sources that support your position"
-------------------

Ditto that!

Anonymous said...

T. F. BAYARD

"the term "natural-born citizen,” as used in the Constitution
and Statutes of the U. S. is held to be a native of the U.S."

Unlike others here, I'm no longer unaware of the fact that the term "native" is ambiguous. Being a native has nothing to do with an individual's birth location. It has EVERYTHING to do with his ancestry.

If you were the son of a Kenyan, and born in Hawaii, you WOULD NOT BE A NATIVE HAWAIIAN. No one with ancestors from somewhere other than Hawaii is a Native Hawaiian. Being a native is about one's family connections, connections that never change. The brief moment of exit from the womb is not something that never changes. It is here and gone in minutes, and totally incapable of producing a native. Only the blood of native parents can do that.

"The naturalization by law of a father before his child
attains the age of twenty-one, would be naturalization of
such minor."
NO, IT WOULD NOT. Verbal short-cuts fail the test of reflecting reality. Reality is that only one who takes the nationality-severing vow of Allegiance & Renunciation has been naturalized.

His family then become Americans by jus sanguinis. When his political "blood" became the blood of an American, then so did theirs.

They could NOT be something different from him (until after the 19th Amendment)


Anonymous said...

MA wrote: "any child who was born in the United States to an alien father would need naturalization"

That truly is a thought deprived of any meaning in the real world.

Children do not "need" "naturalization" because they do not need citizenship. Even adults don't need citizenship if they have a Green Card.

As for the common naturalization delusion, explain this: "All persons BORN in THE UNITED STATES, -OR NATURALIZED... are citizens..."

Now think for a change; those who are naturalized are NOT those who are born in the United States!!!!!!!!
Those born in the U.S. ARE NOT those who are NATURALIZED!!!!

TWO SEPARATE GROUPS. THINK! Children of aliens, born in the U.S. are viewed as citizens by magic.
You can define the magic anyway you want, -like jus soli magic, common law magic which deemed those born under the king's dominion to be his subjects, and likewise for those born under American dominion, EXCEPT to call it naturalization.

NATURALIZATION is not something other than the process of an adult severing all ties of obedience and allegiance to his former government, -cutting his umbilical cord to his homeland's sovereignty. Becoming a new natural citizen of America, reborn, as it were, by a legal fiction.

Women could not become naturalized Americans, -neither could minors, because neither could be real citizens because neither could swear on the Bible before Almighty God that they would BEAR ARMS, TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE (unto death if need be)for their new country.

Only MEN could become what was meant by the word CITIZEN.

Sloppy and inaccurate use of language always results in sloppy thinking and erroneous concepts, of which there are plenty in these here parts.

Anonymous said...

MA wrote: "
The Constitution gives to Congress the power to naturalize by statute aliens to be..."

Would you please "provide Founding era sources and confirming U.S. Supreme Court opinions or other authoritative sources that support your position" of an authority that can be found nowhere?

If you cannot, I would ask you to openly confess that it does not exist, cannot be found, and what does exist gives no basis for such a baseless, dishonest claim.

I know, and you know, that you can't do that because there is no there there. But you must assert that there is in order to support your theory of naturalization law and government power over all foreign-birth citizenship, with no such citizenship being natural and beyond government authority.

Otherwise, the Nat Act of '90 would NOT contain an "error" that miraculously protected the presidential eligibility of the sons of American Ambassadors who had the audacity to be born abroad.

We simply, absolutely can't have that because if foreign-born Americans are natural citizens, then your entire house of cards collapses.
I see the strings you pull and the cement you lay but it's all built on sand.

MN wrote: "BOTH jus soli and jus sanguinis are ESSENTIAL and NECESSARY REQUIREMENTS for a "citizen of the United States" to be eligible for the office of POTUS."
[What?? Don't tell Art that 'cause he knows that no lousy citizen of the U.S. can be President! Pathetic.]

You are failing to grasp that at common law, jus sanguinis is an element of jus soli.

British Jus soli required both native-birth AND parental subjection, i.e., born of a father who was subject, i.e., a subject of the king (with U.S. citizenship being analogous).
So your "requirement" is a redundant statement.

All you need to say is that one must be a citizen by jus soli, and not jus sanguinis (which doesn't include the factor of native birth).

ajtelles said...

Silly h2o...

On April 17, 2014 at 4:34, 5:02,5:42 AM, h2ooflife, aka h2o, wrote something silly, again.

5:42 AM -

>> "MN wrote: "BOTH jus soli and jus sanguinis are ESSENTIAL and NECESSARY REQUIREMENTS
>> "for a "citizen of the United States" to be eligible for the office of POTUS."

[YES, h2o, the truth as MichaelN wrote it is staring you in the face, and all you can say is "What??" Don't tell Art... ?]

>> "[What??
>> "Don't tell Art that
>> "'cause he knows
>> "that no lousy citizen of the U.S. can be President!
>> "Pathetic.]"

[YES, h2o, in your arcane and flying solo twisted thinking, the truth that YOU call a "lousy" citizen is ridiculed.

That is a "Pathetic" response, since you obviously refuse to acknowledge that you can read in the 1795 Naturalization Act of the third Congress, with President Washington's agreement, that the single word "citizen" replaced the three word unit "natural born citizen" that is in the 1790 Naturalization Act of the first Congress.]


>> "You are failing to grasp that at common law, jus sanguinis is an element of jus soli.

[NO, h2o,
it YOU who fail to grasp that jus sanguinis is NOT an "element" OF jus soli.

There IS a 'union' of the two terms but NOT a 'fusion' of the two terms.
There IS a 'distinction' of the two terms but NOT a 'separation' of the two terms.

The soil of the nation that the parents claim as their own has to be there BEFORE the birth to two U.S. Citizen parents can take place there.

It is YOU, h2o, who fails, with an unpersuasive and unconvincing cacophony of words, to grasp that jus sanguinis is NOT an "element" jus soli.]


[...]

>> "All you need to say is that one must be a citizen by jus soli, and not jus sanguinis (which doesn't include the factor of native birth)."

[HUH, h2o?]

- - - - - - - - - -

It's a good thing, h2o, that you do not have aspirations to elected office, 'cause you would definitely NOT be persuasive and convincing, not with your arcane and way out there historical revisionism that does not adduce original sources.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

Mr. Nash, like Unknown/NotLinda is all confused about “natural born citizens” and “citizens of the United States.” They still do not yet get it that under the clear and plain text of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, no citizen of the United States, born after the adoption of the Constitution and who is also not a natural born citizen, is eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. The reason they do not yet get it is because under that simple understanding, they cannot pass off a citizen of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment (which only defines a citizens of the United States) and/or a citizen of the United States under an Act of Congress (also, only defines a citizen of the United States) as eligible to be President unless they are able to prove that such a citizen is also an Article II natural born citizen. In order to do that, they have to satisfy the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen relied upon by the Framers when they drafted and adopted the Constitution which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizen at the time of the child’s birth. Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (1758) (1797); Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v Wong Kim Ark (1898). Neither DF President Obama nor any person born out of the United States not to U.S. citizen parents serving the national defense (Senator Ted Cruz) can meet that common law definition. At best, those persons, who meet the requirements of the applicable legal provisions, are citizens of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment (Obama, if he was born in the United States) or Act of Congress (Cruz). But also not satisfying the constitutional common law definition of a natural born citizen, they are also not natural born citizens. Hence, they are both not constitutionally eligible to be President.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Congressional Legislative Attorney, Jack Maskell, and the Obots argue that any “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress is an Article II “natural born citizen.” But to talk about a “citizen of the United States” when addressing the Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 requirements to be eligible to be President is a red herring because there is no definition of a citizen of the United States, whether found in the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress, which satisfies the one and only one controlling constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Anonymous said...

Art wrote: "in the 1795 Naturalization Act of the third Congress,... that the single word "citizen" replaced the three word unit "natural born citizen" that is in the 1790 Naturalization Act"

Your thinking is so bent that you can't see how twisted it is. How is it that you do not understand what you yourself write?

You claim that the sons of American Ambassadors born abroad were magically disenfranchised of their God-given natural RIGHT to recognition as natural born citizens by a Congress that had no authority over their citizenship.

Please quote me the words of the Constitution where its authors surrendered their inherent right to pass their American citizenship to their children and gave it to Congress with the belief that Congress would know better what to do with it than they would.

PLEASE! Just quote me your almighty authority, or back the heck down and admit your error.

THERE IS NO SUCH AUTHORITY ANYWHERE except in overly fertile and dogmatic imaginations.
Nor is there a scintilla of reason to swallow the dogma that an American father's right to imbue his sons with his national membership terminated at water's edge.
That is a traitorous dogma that makes Big Brother a God, -Lord Sovereign of all things Citizenship! No Natural Rights possessed by We, The People!

That's a great chain you've forged for yourself?

And, you claim, that 3rd Congress demoted them to mere... "citizens of the United States" -with your demented point being that no citizen of the United States is eligible to be President.

Please explain to me how if you call a Navy Seal a Navy man, then he stops being a Seal?

If you can't see what is wrong with your logic, then you can't be fixed (which apparently is the case).

You tenaciously cling to the lie that Americans born abroad are magically changed from what nature made them (natural Americans) into ALIENS!!!! because otherwise the whole Apuzzonian dogma collapses.

Anonymous said...

HEADS UP! Now Online;

The Asinine Errors of Maskell’s & Mario’s N-B-Citizen Bullsh*t

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/04/16/the-asinine-errors-of-maskells-n-b-citizen-bullsht/

A shocking eye-opener. A blindingly clear revelation of the disdained truth.
~All the things you never knew that you didn't know.

ajtelles said...

More from h2o...

On April 18, 2014 at 12:45 AM, h2ooflife, aka h2o, responded with more arcane silliness and without ANY original intent original sources.

Go to 12:45 AM and read it.

>> " h2ooflife said...

>> "Art wrote:
>> "in the 1795 Naturalization Act of the third Congress,...
>> "that the single word "citizen"
>> "replaced the three word unit "natural born citizen"
>> "that is in the 1790 Naturalization Act"

>> "Your thinking is so bent that you can't see how twisted it is.
>> "How is it that you do not understand what you yourself write?">


- - - - - - - - - -

H2o's incoherency does not meet normal standards that require a point-counterpoint response.

H2o does NOT ever respond to why the 1795 third Congress, with President Washington's second veto free agreement, changed the first Congresses 1790 Naturalization Act three word unit, a naturalization declaration, "natural born Citizen" designation, that was passed in 1790 with President Washington's first veto free agreement, with the 1795 Naturalization Act single word, a naturalization declaration , "citizen" designation.

H2o's argument is with President Washington and his veto free agreements with both the first Congress and the third Congress, not with anyone here on Mario's forum.

The naturalization acts, which are declaratory as the Congress expresses its intent, which President Washington accepted and did not veto, did not change the U.S. Constitution and the inherent and implicit original intent meaning of “natural born Citizen” in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 as referring, implicitly in the word “born”, to ONLY birth on U.S. soil (and jurisdictions) to TWO U.S. Citizen parents who claimed the soil of the U.S. nation as their national soil BEFORE their child is born on THAT soil, NOT foreign soil.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Your and that of other Obots’ whole analysis regarding a natural born citizen is misplaced."

It is not place here with expectation that you will like it.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"While you recognize that the issue is who is a natural born citizen, you tell us who is a citizen and mistakenly believe you are telling us who is a natural born citizen."

That makes no sense. What I've been telling you is that the natural-born citizens are the subset of citizens who received their citizenship at the moment of birth, and, as I've noted here before, it's a proper subset. That's not telling you who is a citizen.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"By telling us in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855that the children of naturalized persons became citizens upon the naturalization of their parents, (Congress) also informed us that children born in the United States to alien parents were alien born and could become citizens upon the naturalization of their parents if done during their minority and when dwelling in the United States.

You made that up. There's no "become" in the first Naturalization Acts. In fact, the first Naturalization Acts say nothing about births within the United States. The federal power would not be resolved until after the Civil War.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It never dawned upon the minds of any of those lower courts that Tes cited that there is a constitutional difference between being a citizen at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment and being a natural born citizen under the common law"

It didn't dawn on anyone else either until October or November of 2008 when a certain faction needed reasons why Barack Obama cannot be president.

I take your lack of an actual answer to mean that yes, you are alone in your theory, which you stated in: "I have been arguing for years that the Fourteenth Amendment, with respect to persons born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction, but who do not meet the common law definition of a natural born citizen, does nothing more than naturalize those persons at birth. The Obots say that I am nuts for making such an argument."

With zero courts or scholars on your side, I now have to concur with the obot opinion on your theory. The controlling precedent is clear on the matter:

"Citizenship by naturalization can only be acquired by naturalization under the authority and in the forms of law. But citizenship by birth is established by the mere fact of birth under the circumstances defined in the Constitution. Every person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, becomes at once a citizen of the United States, and needs no naturalization." U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) at 702

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"By the way, will you care to explain how it could be that as you concede you do not know how the Founders and Framers defined a natural born citizen, but Rob Natelson knows 'exactly' how they defined one?"

As best we can tell, the Founders and Framers did not define natural-born citizen, and Professor Natelson does not claim they did. Obviously the term comes from the English "natural-born subject", as your chosen reference there clearly explains.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Unknown/NotLinda, you are all talk and no action."

Blogs can be like that.

On the other hand, you combined talk with actual legal actions. Turned out your theories, according to the courts you chose, are without merit.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Would you care to demonstrate what evidence you have which proves that a child born out of the jurisdiction of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents was in the eyes of the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and early Congress a natural born citizen (I did not say considered as a natural born citizen)?"

Why would I demonstrate something that's not even my position? The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers were not of one mind. Until U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark there were respectable doubts on jus soli, and only recently has the U.S. legal community reached a broad consensus that those who received their U.S. citizenship upon birth outside the U.S. also qualify.

ajtelles said...

Subset...

Subset, subset, subset, what does that mean?

On April 19, 2014 at 4:50 AM, Unknown, aka “someone”, said to Mario,

>> "... What I've been telling you is that
>> "the natural-born citizens are the subset of citizens
>> "who received their citizenship
>> "at the moment of birth,
>> "and, as I've noted here before, it's a proper subset."


[Hmmm...
Whenever "someone", any Obama-birther "someone", says that "natural-born citizens" are a "subset" of "citizens", that could be construed as another way of saying that the U.S. Constitution is a "subset" of a naturalization act passed by the U.S. Congress.

Unless "subset" means something else, "subset", which means "a set contained within a set", means being subordinate to something else in which it is contained.

Right?

Is a "natural born Citizen", the correct phrase and spelling in the current Constitution, who alone is eligible to be POTUS, subordinate to a "citizen" who is NOT eligible to be POUTS?

Some "citizens" are NOT eligible to be POTUS, right Unknown, “someone”, anyone?

Yes, some “citizens” are NOT eligible to be POTUS.

So, if some "citizens" are NOT eligible to be POTUS, that means that some "citizens" ARE eligible to be POTUS.

Right?
Yes.

So, if some "citizens" ARE eligible to be POTUS, that means that "natural born Citizen" is NOT a "subset" of "citizen" but is rather John Jay's way of informing his Unknown "posterity" that ONLY a "citizen" who is a "natural born Citizen" is eligible to be POTUS.

By underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen", John Jay was informing his Unknown "posterity" and Obama-birthers that, implicit in the word “born”, is the common sense understanding that ONLY birth on U.S. soil (and jurisdictions), and ONLY birth to two U.S. citizen parents who claim the soil of the U.S. as their own national soil BEFORE their child is born, is eligible to be POTUS.

Right?
Yes.

It seems to me that what we have here from Obama-birther "someone" Unknown, is someone with "a failure to communicate" accurately, because the agenda is to defend "someone" else who "claims" to have been born on U.S. soil and who ONLY had ONE U.S. citizen parent, and so is NOT eligible to be POUTS.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"As I have repeatedly said, the Framers when they wrote the Constitution defined a natural born citizen."

Yes, you repeatedly say they defined it. You never quote them doing so.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Congress did not define it later through some naturalization act. Your theory would mean that Congress could at will change the Constitution with a naturalization act rather than a duly ratified constitutional amendment."

I have no such theory. I'm not big on the "you do not understand" thing, but I think in this case, you, Mr. Apuzzo, might be missing it. Perhaps I can explain the principle more effectively by looking at all our Constitutional eligibility requirements together.

The House, Senate, and Presidency each has an age requriement; they each have a residency or "inhabitant" requirement; and -- the point here -- they each have a citizenship requirment. House members must be seven years a citizen; Senators must be nine years a citizen; and the President must be a natural-born citizen which means a citizen from birth.

Congress has the power to change the rules of naturalization, but not to change the definition of "seven years a citizen", nor of "nine years a citizen", nor of "natural-born citizen". A change in a rule of naturalization will change the set of those who, at times in the future, qualify as a seven year, nine year, or life-long citizens, but will not change the eligibility requirements for elected office, nor change the meaning of constitutional terms.

Congress has another power or two that can change who qualifies to be president: The power over disposition of territory and admition of new states. Like the power of naturalization, the power of what land is part of the United States will partially determine who is eligible without changing the eligibility requirment.

ajtelles said...

An Unknown "citizen"...

On April 19, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Unknown said

>> "... and the President must be a natural-born citizen which means a citizen from birth."

For some obtuse reason, Unknown and ALL Obama-birthers insist that "a citizen from birth" means the same thing as a "natural born Citizen" from birth.

An 1868 14th Amendment "citizen from birth" did NOT negate John Jay's inspired and prescient suggestion to George Washington in 1787 that ONLY a "natural born Citizen" from birth be eligible to be POTUS.

John Jay's original intent meaning in the Article II Section 1 Clause 5 "natural born Citizen" from birth designation, meaning ONLY born on U.S. soil and ONLY to two U.S. citizen parents, did NOT include being born on U.S. soil ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent.

That is NOT original intent common sense.

If NOT two U.S. citizen parents but ONLY one U.S. citizen parent was John Jay's implicit meaning in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen", can any of John Jay's Unknown posterity adduce ANY common sense original sources to support the ONLY one implicit idea.

Implicit in the word "born" was BOTH birth on U.S. soil AND birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents that the parents claimed as their national soil BEFORE their child was born.

They would be two parents who would BOTH claim the soil of the U.S. nation as their national soil BEFORE their child was born on THEIR national soil.

They would be two parents who would BOTH be U.S. citizens BEFORE their child was born, and the citizenship status of BOTH U.S. citizen parents would be the citizenship status of their child.

If ONLY one parent was a U.S. citizen and the other parent was a foreign citizen when their child was born on U.S. soil OR born on foreign soil, the citizenship status of their child would be ONLY that of a "citizen" of the U.S. AND that of a "citizen" of the foreign nation, but NOT a U.S. “natural born Citizen” AND a foreign born “citizen”.

The citizenship status of their child could NOT be the status of a "natural born Citizen" because the foreign born "citizen" could NOT bestow on the child what the foreign born "citizen" did NOT own, which is U.S. citizenship.

THAT is why it takes two to tango and reproduce a child, AND it takes two to bestow the "natural born Citizen" status on their "citizen" child.

It takes TWO persons to tango to reproduce and give birth.
It takes TWO U.S. citizens to reproduce a "natural born Citizen" from birth.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Emer de Vattel said in Section 212 of The Law of Nations (1758) (1797):

“The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. . . . I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”

In his first sentence, Vattel said “are citizens.” That could mean that the parents could become citizens after the child’s birth. But Vattel, in his later sentence explained that the child had to be born to a citizen father (which Vattel explained meant parents).

The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happesett (1875) explained:

“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. . . .”

(also cited and quoted approvingly in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)).

As we can see, the Minor Court replaced Vattel’s “are citizens” with “were its citizens” so as to capture everything that Vattel said in both of his sentences. The Court also said that under that common law, all other people who were not born in a county to citizen parents were “aliens or foreigners.” So, there were no others other than natural born citizens who at common law could be citizens, let alone natural born citizens.

In Vattel’s and Minor’s definition, natives and natural born citizens are disjunctive elements. This means that whatever applies from the sentence to the natural born citizens also applies to the natives and vice versa. Hence, the words natives and natural born citizens have equivalent meaning.

There are many instances in which our courts and other authorities have said that the President must be a “native-born citizen.” Jack Maskell, Unknown, and other Obots, pollute the understanding of the meaning of a natural born citizen by using the expression “native-born citizen” as though these authorities said that being a “native-born citizen” is sufficient to be eligible to be President when actually they only said that being a native-born citizen was necessary for such eligibility. As used by our courts and other authorities in later years and especially after the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment with its emphasis on being born in the United States in order to be a “citizen of the United States” at birth, native-born citizen has been used to mean only born in the United States, which as we can see from Vattel and Minor, is only one of the necessary elements of being a natural born citizen. So, clearly if one is not a native-born citizen, or born in the country, one is not a natural born citizen and not eligible to be President. But as we can see, the use of native-born citizen in this limited sense does not mean native or natural born citizen in the Vattel/Minor sense. It does not mean that if one is a native-born citizen one is necessarily also a natural born citizen. But people like Jack Maskell, Unknown, and the Obots, despite the clear and plain words of the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor, lie to us and tell us that any “native-born citizen” is a natural born citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of II

Yours and Jack Maskell’s is a pathetic and losing position. Your and Maskell’s made-up revisionist theory that any born citizen is a “natural born citizen” is just that. In peddling your pet theory among the ignorant, you defy the Lockean/Vattelian reality of the Founding period, adopted by the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and early Congress, that children followed the condition of their parents (“partus sequitur patrem”). Indeed, if the parents were citizens so were their minor children born to them in the country of their membership and therefore not in need of any naturalization. If parents were citizens, but their children were not born in the country of which the parents were members, their children were alien born and in need of naturalization. And if the parents were aliens so were their minor children born to them regardless of whether born in or out of the country (“wheresoever born”) and in need of naturalization.

You and Jack Maskell think that you can prove your point that anyone who is born a citizen is a natural born citizen by continuing to demonstrate your ignorance of the simple Article II fact that being a “citizen of the United States,” whether at birth or after birth, is not sufficient to demonstrate that one is a “natural born citizen.”

You and Jack Maskell attempt to evade the clear and controlling word of our early Congress on who were the natural born citizens and who were the adults and children who needed to be naturalized to be “citizens of the United States,” either at birth or after birth.

You and Jack Maskell do not come to grips with the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court decision in Minor v. Happersett (1875) which said that the Framers defined a natural born citizen under the common law the nomenclature of which they were familiar and that that law defined one as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth and that all the rest of the people were “alien or foreigners.” You want us to turn a blind eye to unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor, telling us that its definition of a natural born citizen is mere dicta and that again in dicta it left open the question of who were the natural born citizens, two positions which are intellectually dishonest as seen from the thoughtful and thorough decision of the court on the meaning of U.S. citizenship and that any honest reading of the decision demonstrates that it left open the question of whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was a “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, not whether that child was an Article II “natural born citizen” who the Court had clearly and distinctly just defined in the same paragraph in which it left open that question.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Then you both pawn off U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) as providing us with a new definition of a natural born citizen, all the time not conceding that even if that were true, such definition would be mere dicta. Wong Kim Ark did nothing more than answer the Fourteenth Amendment question left open by Minor and yet you want to make the decision bigger than life. You think that you make some compelling legal argument by providing us with out-of-context, one-time shot quotes from Wong Kim Ark, which do not go to prove who is a natural born citizen, but rather only who is a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, which both Minor v. Happersett (1875) and Wong Kim Ark itself said did not define a natural born citizen.

Finally, you concede your ignorance on how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a natural born citizen and rather expect us to accept a definition of the clause based on a mythical modern “broad consensus” within the mythical “U.S. legal community,” without linking anything that these authorities have said today to how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a natural born citizen.

The Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and people inserted the natural born citizen clause in the Constitution as a requirement for eligibility to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. They saw it as a means by which to best assure that the nation would be lead in both time of peace and war by a person who the nation could trust with their survival and preservation. Your and Maskell’s made-up theory simply writes the natural born citizen clause out of the Constitution by taking all forms of naturalization at birth under either the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress and equating that status to an Article II “natural born citizen.” Such an approach is treason upon the United States, its people, and Constitution, for it is an attack on who is a natural born citizen, which determines who may be President and Commander in Chief of the Military and therefore ultimately an attack on our national security.

Unknown/NotLinda, you are simply a loser, regardless of what some post-Obama lower courts have said. Jack Maskell is even a bigger loser than you are, unilaterally giving himself license to add the words “‘natural born’ citizen” to what any court or authority in the history of the United States has ever said was a citizen of the United States and telling us that partus sequitur patrem (which the historical record demonstrates the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, people, and Congress accepted), was nothing but a dreadful concept out of the Dred Scott decision which was eventually repudiated by Wong Kim Ark which replaced it with the English common law (which under Lord Coke became the legal basis for slavery in the colonies).

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

I of II

Unknown/NotLinda loves to simply parrot things about which she knows nothing or very little.

First, Unknown/NotLinda still does not understand that all natural born citizens are citizens (being the universal set), but not all citizens are natural born citizens (being a proper subset-see below).

Second, it is wrong to say that a natural born citizen (NBC) is a subset of a citizen of the United States (COTUS), for while every NBC is in the COTUS set, not every COTUS element is in the NBC set. Simply stated, there are COTUS who are not NBC. Hence, since every NBC is in the COTUS set, but not every COTUS is in the NBC set, NBC is a proper subset of COTUS, not a subset of COTUS.

Third, arguing about set and proper subset theory is useful when analyzing the NBC proper subset versus the COTUS set. The common law describes what persons (objects) belong the NBC proper subset, telling us that it is comprised of those children who are born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The Fourteenth Amendment describes part of the COTUS set, which does not include defining the objects of the NBC proper subset, telling us that any person who is born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof belongs to the COTUS set (the former are COTUS at birth and the latter COTUS after birth). Congress, through its naturalization Acts, also describes all those who are part of the COTUS set, except it does not define by such laws the objects of the NBC proper subset. These are persons who are born in the United States under the same circumstances described by the Fourteenth Amendment and persons who are not born in the United States and born to one or two U.S. citizen parents (upon qualification made COTUS at birth) or to no U.S. citizen parents (upon qualification made COTUS after birth).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Fourth, people like Unknown use arguing about set theory (about which she knows nothing) as a subterfuge, for Unknown (and other Obots) stealthily conflate and confound a COTUS with a NBC. Jack Maskell even goes further and shamelessly takes the words of the courts which are “citizen of the United States” and just appends after them “‘natural born’ citizen,” creating the misconception that the court actually ruled that the person was a natural born citizen. Here is an example of Maskell’s deceit taken from Wong Kim Ark:

The Supreme Court of the United States, in its landmark opinion on birthright citizenship
authored by Justice Gray in United States v. Wong Kim Ark, citing both the common law and
numerous legal precedents in the United States, explained in 1898 that a child born of alien
parents within the country and subject to its jurisdiction (that is, whose parents are not diplomatic personnel representing a foreign nation or troops in hostile occupation) is considered a “natural born” citizen (in the United States) or subject (in England),(footnote omitted) as that term has been used over the centuries in England and the United States.

***

The Supreme Court in Wong Kim Ark thus concluded that the Fourteenth Amendment “affirms” the common law rule of “citizenship by birth within the territory,” even if one is born of alien parents in this country, and approved of the characterization of the children of such resident aliens
as “natural born” citizens of the United States. (footnote omitted).

***

The majority opinion of the Court clearly found, by any fair reading of its reasoning, discussion, and holding, that every person born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction (that is, not the child of foreign diplomats or of troops in hostile occupation), regardless of the citizenship of one’s parents, is a “natural born” citizen, and that the Fourteenth Amendment merely affirmed the common law and fundamental rule in this country that one born on the soil of the United States and subject to its jurisdiction is a “natural born” citizen.

As we can see, Mr. Maskell was quite busy inserting every chance he got the words “‘natural born’ citizen” into his reading of the Wong Kim Ark decision, even though the Court did not hold that Wong was a “natural born citizen,” but rather a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of his birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment and not by virtue of the common law of which Minor spoke and which it told us provided the Framers with their definition of a natural born citizen.

Fifth, a natural born citizen (NBC) is a child born in the country (BIC) to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth (CPs). This definition may be expressed as NBC = BIC + CPs. Therefore, if not BIC + CPs, not NBC. Regardless of in what set people like Unknown and other Obots want to place NBC, this reality does not change.

Unknown said...

Maybe unknown can explain why George Washington called children of US citizens born outside of US "citizens of the US" and not NBCs in NA 1795 and then tell us who in legal community would have more authority than article 2 and GW? A citizen of the US is plainly not eligible now. GW signed off on A2 and NA 1795. I had one cruz supporter telling me i was going back too far so i guess GW is meaningless.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq., addressing Adrien Nash, wrote:
"Regarding you appropriating my ideas and analysis on a natural born citizen, not giving me any credit for them, and making as though they are you own,"

The word "credit" makes me smile, but what there is goes primarily to Leo Donofrio.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I do not have to read your blog to show myself that I am wrong. Rather, I only need to read my own blog and your comments to see that I am right."

The real world, to the extent it pays attention at all, will read the verdicts of your cases. Where have you ever heard anyone counter a court citation with what the losing attorney proved to himself on his blog?

ajtelles said...

1/3

Subset redux...

Mario, on April 19, 2014 at 8:48 PM, First, you wrote -

>> “Unknown/NotLinda still does not understand
>> “that all natural born citizens are citizens (being the universal set),
>> “but not all citizens are natural born citizens (being a proper subset-see below).

>> “Second, it is wrong to say that
>> “a natural born citizen (NBC) is a subset of a citizen of the United States (COTUS),
<< “for while every NBC is in the COTUS set,
>> “not every COTUS element is in the NBC set.”


Dittos to “element” and to your “set” and “subset” tutorial, which led to a unique point of view explained below.

- - - - - - - - - -

On April 19, 2014 at 10:24 AM, knowing that Unknown, aka “someone”, does not respond substantively and prefers to nit-pick your comments, I asked Unknown if a "natural born Citizen", who alone is eligible to be POTUS, is subordinate to a "citizen" who is NOT eligible to be POUTS?

That was not a trick question, but I could have clarified that question by also asking if a "natural born Citizen" is to be included in a subset of a "citizen" who is NOT ALSO a "natural born Citizen"?

When I talk with other “normal people” non-scholars and non-lawyers, which is ALL of my close in proximity friends, I avoid the jargon and try to put scholarly type words and concepts, which I like to read and understand, into Ockham's razor (the simplest answer is best, and the unknown is explained by the known) simple terms to explain “what does THAT mean” questions.

So, to me and my “normal people” friends, to be in a "subset", which means "a set contained within a set", the “set” which is, as you accurately wrote, “being the universal set”, means being subordinate to something else in which it is contained, i.e., subordinate, for example, by importance, position, time. Time, which means preceding or following the other in coming into being, is my point here.

The Obirthers do not like the accurate comparison and contrast phrase, ALL “natural born Citizens” of the U. S. are ALSO “citizens” of the U.S., but NOT ALL “citizens” of the U.S are ALSO “natural born Citizens” of the U.S.

While the phrase is accurate, in the case of a “natural born Citizen” of the U.S. who is also a “citizen” of the U.S., and a “citizen” of the U.S. who is NOT also a “natural born Citizens” of the U.S., it seems to me that it is more accurate and clarifying to state that neither a “natural born Citizen” of the U.S. from birth OR a “citizen” of the U.S. from birth (born on U.S. soil to two “citizen” parents) is subordinate to the other.

Neither is a “subset” of the other in importance, position OR time. In a certain sense, they are both timeless to each other, there is no time that separates them, they came into being at the same time, and so are equal to each other in original intent importance, position, time, while maintaining the implicit distinctions that unite one to the other.

- - - - - - - - - -

I wrote something similar to h2ooflife, aka h2o, a few days ago on April 17, 2014 at 10:18 AM (to which he never and probably will never respond), that “jus sanguinis is NOT an "element" OF jus soli, and clarified with these words -

“There IS a 'union' of the two terms but NOT a 'fusion' of the two terms.
“There IS a 'distinction' of the two terms but NOT a 'separation' of the two terms.

“The soil of the nation that the parents claim as their own has to be there BEFORE the birth to two U.S. Citizen parents can take place there.”


There is a union not a fusion.
There is a distinction not a separation.

The uniting and distinct characteristics are ONE place and TWO persons who produce ONE person. ONLY birth on U.S. soil (and jurisdictions), and ONLY birth to two U.S. citizen parents.

ajtelles said...

2/3

Subset redux...

The union of the two parents produces a human being, and the union of the two U.S. citizens produces a child “citizen” from birth who is automatically a “natural born Citizen” from birth in the nation of the parents, and the “citizen” as well as the “natural born Citizen” come into existence at the same time and the same place, birth time on U.S. soil place.

An example that I find easy to understand and to relate to others who may ask “what does THAT mean”, is the two sides of a pane of glass. When the pane of glass is produced, BOTH sides come into existence at the SAME time, and neither is subordinate to the other in importance, position or time, the order of coming into being.

However, as to Unknown and the Obirthers, their “citizen” from birth is NOT always a “natural born Citizen” by their own definition of “citizen” from birth, which requires their adducing the 1868 14th amendment and the later Minor v Happersett and Wong Kim Ark court cases, but NEVER adducing and NEVER defining and defending their Obama birth narrative with the 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 words “natural born Citizen” as ONLY having their Obama-birther meaning of birth on U.S. soil AND also ONLY one U.S. citizen parent was the original intent of the original birthers, specifically John Jay.

Defenders of the original intent of the original birthers, the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, compare and contrast with the comparison, ALL 1787 Article II “natural born Citizens” from birth are ALSO “citizens” from birth because they were ONLY born on U.S. soil to ONLY two U.S. citizen parents, and with the contrast, but NOT all 1868 14th amendment “citizens” from birth are ALSO “natural born Citizen” from birth because they may have been born on U.S. soil, but some “citizens” were born to ONLY one U.S. citizen parent who may or may not have been married to one foreign citizen parent.

Now, the Obirthers never rebut with the opposite comparison and contrast phrasing, such as the comparison, ALL 1868 14th amendment “citizens” from birth are ALSO 1787 Article II “natural born Citizens” from birth, and the contrast, but NOT ALL 1787 Article II “natural born Citizens” from birth are ALSO 1868 14th amendment “citizens” from birth.

Why do the Obirthers NEVER rebut with a comparison or contrast like that? Because, while the comparison may “sound” sensible on the surface but not when analyzed, the contrast obviously does not make original intent common sense even to them according to their Obama birth narrative that ALL “citizens” from birth are ALSO “natural born Citizens” from birth.

The Obirthers are trying to defend the Obama birth narrative that he was born on U.S. soil to ONLY one U.S. citizen parent and one foreign citizen parent, 'CAUSE, aw, come on now, while two persons, yes, two persons ARE required to reproduce a child, however, ONLY one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to reproduce a child with dual citizenship, uh, we mean, with single… citizenship... or... something... like... uh, that.

The Obama-birthers do not seem to grasp that a 1787 Article II "natural born Citizen" by (implicit) birth on U.S. soil to two U.S. citizen parents is not less important or more important than a 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” by birth on foreign soil, or an 1868 14th amendment "citizen" by birth on U.S. soil to one U.S. citizen parent, or a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act “citizen” by birth on foreign soil to one U.S. citizen parent.

It's NOT a matter of importance, position or time. It IS a matter of union and distinction.

ajtelles said...

3/3

Subset redux...

A “natural born Citizen” is definitely subordinate to, in the sense of dependent on, the birth of the "citizen" child to two parents who are BOTH U.S. citizen parents before the birth of their child, but a “natural born Citizen” from birth (born on U.S. soil to two U.S. citizen parents) is NOT a subset of a “citizen” from birth (born on U.S. soil to two U.S. citizen parents), because the 1787 Article II “natural born Citizen” from birth and the 1787 Article II “citizen” from birth are two terms, two distinctive and inseparable terms, that define the SAME child at the SAME time and place, ONLY birth on U.S. soil, and ONLY to two U.S. citizen parents.

It seems to me that Unknown and defenders of the Obama birth narrative, Obama-birthers, Obirthers, seem to dwell in the shadows where the nomenclature found in the penumbra can mean whatever they need it to mean at the time they need it, while defenders of the original intent of the original birthers are standing on the shoulders of the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers with a bright light pointing to their original intent words to, with a hat tip to John Jay, to protect America with POTUS aspirants who were ONLY born on U.S. soil, including jurisdictions, and ONLY born to TWO U.S. citizen parent, NOT ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent.

- - - - - - - - - -

What's wrong with a ”higher hurdle” of ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents instead of the ”lower hurdle” of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, when there are foreign and domestic enemies of America who do NOT care about the original intent of the original birthers, specifically John Jay, who underlined “born” in “natural born Citizen” for an integral, inherent, intrinsic, and explicitly stated national security reason, to protect access to the dual office of the Chief Executive of the Federal government and Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military.

What's wrong with a ”higher hurdle”?
Absolutely nothing.
What's wrong with a ”lower hurdle”?
Absolutely everything.

The ”lower hurdle” of only ONE U.S. citizen parent denies common sense original intent.

Common sense requires protecting the office of POTUS and control of the U.S. military from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic, with a ”higher hurdle” of TWO U.S. citizen parents. Two U.S. citizen parents who claim as their national soil the soil of the nation that gave them BOTH the citizenship status of U.S. citizen so that they BOITH can pass on the SAME citizenship status of U.S. citizen to their child, a “natural born Citizen” from birth.

Another way of saying it is, Two is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

Two persons are needed for birth, and two “citizens”, by either birth or naturalization, are needed for the SAME citizenship status as the parents to be passed on to their child. The two U.S. citizen parents produce ONE “natural born Citizen” from birth.

TWO is much better and more secure than One.
TWO is the only way to produce ONE.

Two U.S. citizen parents is much better for national security than only one U.S. citizen parent, and two U.S. citizen parents is the ONLY way to produce ONE “natural born Citizen” from birth.

That is Ockham's razor simplicity.

Can the Obama-birthers defend their “one U.S. citizen parent Obama birth narrative protects national security just as good as two U.S. citizen parents” with Ockham's razor simplicity?

Unknown, “someone”, anyone?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Slartibartfast said...

ajtelles,

I don't know if you did it on purpose, but your discussion of subsets is highly disingenuous. First, try to implicitly equate the terms "subset" and "proper subset". This falsifies a critical theorem---namely that every set is a subset of itself. A common way to prove two sets are equal is to show that they are both subsets of each other. Under your crazy logic, this would be impossible. You then introduce a new term, "subordinate", one which you do not define in context, and proceed to use it to draw a false analogy.

Sets are merely groups of elements of one sort or another. They can be defined by listing their elements (i.e. {1, 2, 5, 3.14159}) or by rule (such as "the set of all numbers greater than pi"). The rule for a (proper) subset is necessarily more restrictive than a rule which defines a given set. This does not make a subset in any (relevant) way "subordinate" to one of its supersets.

Don't even get me started on how badly you misunderstand Ockham's razor...

ajtelles said...

Here we go...

Mario, on April 20, 2014 at 7:45 PM, Slartibartfast, aka S...fast, said in the last sentence -

>> "Don't even get me started on how badly you misunderstand Ockham's razor..."

- - - - - - - - -

Hey, S...fast, it is you who obviously misunderstands Ockham's razor.

Since you did not define your (mis)understanding of Ockham's razor, here is the definition which I posted here on April 14, 2014 at 8:54 PM from the

American Heritage Dictionary

Ock-ham's razor also Oc-cam's razor … n.
>> “A rule stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly,
>> “meaning that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable
>> “and that the unknown should first be explained in terms of the known.”

S...fast, what that means is that the simplest answer is best, and the unknown is explained by the known.

That's sounds right on to me. How about you?

- - - - - - - - -

As for the sentences which preceded your rejection of the American Heritage Dictionary definition of Ockham's razor, well, your comments are obfuscatory, aka either intentionally or unintentionally confusing, with obviously obtuse original intent.

If you can put your thoughts in "normal people" language to explain your arcane "what does THAT mean" thoughts, well, we'll be getting somewhere.

Sure, I can spend valuable time to study your sentences and decipher your intent, but, why don't you do the synapse gaps thought work and simplify your own thoughts into "normal people" language, ok?

Also, why don't you clarify for point-counterpoint continuity your negativity in describing me as "disingenuous" with "your crazy logic", and my use of the word "subordinate" which I "... do not define in context, and proceed to use it to draw a false analogy."

S...fast, the definition is in the context.

- - - - - - - - - -

And while your at it S...fast, why not do something constructive and respond to the last part of my post on April 20, 2014 at 2:57 PM:

>> "Another way of saying it is, Two is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

>> "Two persons are needed for birth, and two “citizens”, by either birth or naturalization, are needed for the SAME citizenship status as the parents to be passed on to their child. The two U.S. citizen parents produce ONE “natural born Citizen” from birth.

>> "TWO is much better and more secure than One.
TWO is the only way to produce ONE.

>> "Two U.S. citizen parents is much better for national security than only one U.S. citizen parent, and two U.S. citizen parents is the ONLY way to produce ONE “natural born Citizen” from birth.

>> "That is Ockham's razor simplicity.

>> "Can the Obama-birthers defend their “one U.S. citizen parent Obama birth narrative protects national security just as good as two U.S. citizen parents” with Ockham's razor simplicity?

>> "Unknown, “someone”, anyone?"


How about it, S...fast?

With Ockham's razor simplicity, can you define and defend the Obama-birther narrative that the “lower hurdle” of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, whether born on U.S. soil OR on foreign soil, provides better security for the nation in the 21st century than the “higher hurdle” of TWO patriotic U.S. citizen parents, which is John Jay's 18th century implicit meaning when he underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” from birth, and suggested to George Washington that it was an excellent “higher hurdle” way to protect his Unknown and S...fast posterity from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Unknown said...

2 of the greatest players in NFL history are Jim Brown and Tom Brady but just because they are football players does not mean that they play the same position. Natural born citizens and citizens are both citizens but that does not necessarily make them the same. No sane person would say brady had the power and speed of Jim Brown just because they are both football players and no sane, honest (excluding obots of course) would say all citizens at birth are natural born citizens. Maybe Brady is as tough and savvy as Brown but that does not mean he could play rb just because he is a tough, savvy football player like JB

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Once again, your argument regarding the ratification of the Constitution by the state of New York fails due to begging the question and ignoring anything that contradicts your theories. In this case, you are assuming that natural born subjects of the New York colony needed the grandfather clause (just like you assume that native born children of aliens needed to be naturalized even though there is no record of this ever happening) and ignoring the fact that people are being considered to have been citizens before July 4, 1776 (just like you ignore that President Washington's residency before the Declaration implies that he was considered a citizen from birth).

Art has also put you on thin ice again by bringing up New York. You might remember a little case that came out of there called Lynch v. Clark. You know, the one that said that, due to the national law following the English common law, the native-born child of aliens temporarily sojurning in the US was a natural born citizen. Before the 14th Amendment. Which begs the question, when did the native born children of aliens stop being natural born? It is clear that, at least in the states of New York and Virginia (according to the naturalization law written by Thomas Jefferson), such children have been considered natural born citizens from the founding of the Colonies until the present day.

Going back to your response to my previous comment, you had two objections to the quote from the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark regarding jurisdiction. The first was that one of the citations in the string cite was to the dissent in a previous case. I would have thought that a lawyer would understand that when the SCOUTS agrees with the dissent in a previous case, it overturns the case. Such a citation in no way hurts the credibility of the claim and, in fact, elevates the dissent itself. Maybe you need to ask your law school for your money back.

Your second objection was that by removing the language which didn't apply to Mr. Obama Sr. I was somehow trying to hide something---even though I had quoted the entire passage in full in the previous paragraph. If that's the best counterargument you can come up with, I think we can safely assume that President Obama's father was subject to US jurisdiction when his son was born. Since you've admitted that all citizens are either natural born or naturalized (something that the SCOTUS in Minor agrees with), you've effectively admitted you were wrong regarding President Obama's eligibility.

Then there is your claim that any mention of natural born status in Wong Kim Ark is dicta. This is disingenuous in two ways. Firstly, the court in Wong had the option of declaring Mr. Wong a natural born citizen or declaring him an alien---the Chinese Exclusion Act prevented them from declaring Mr. Wong a naturalized citizen. Therefore, his natural born status was clearly an issue at bar and integral to the decision of the SCOTUS.

On the other hand, Minor was a voting rights case in which there was absolutely no reason to determine natural born status since it had absolutely no bearing on Ms. Minor's right to vote. Thus what you misleadingly characterize as Minor's "definition" of natural born citizens is unquestionably dicta.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

You have a lot to learn about Ockham's razor. It favors explanations which require the fewest assumptions---birthers favor explanations which require a myriad of assumptions, some of which are contradictory. I showed that President Obama's natural born status follows from two assumptions (both of which are backed up by clear statements from the SCOTUS and one of which Mario has stipulated to). Birthers like yourself, on the other hand, unquestionably embrace a myriad of assumptions which range from those unspported by the evidence to those explicitly contradictied by the facts.

Ockham's razor cautions against multiplying entities beyond necessity. In science, this is frequently intrepreted to mean that one should favor hypotheses with the fewest (and simplest) assumptions.

This argument boils down to two contradictory theories:

"President Obama is a natural born citizen"

vs.

"President Obama is not a natural born citizen".

I've shown that the former follows from two simple assumptions. The first is that all persons within a country save foreign diplomats and enemy soldiers are subject to its jurisdiction. This is supported by a clear statement from the SCOTUS in Minor v. Happersett. Not to mention pretty much every use of the term "jurisdiction" in both real and fictional law enforcement. The second, that there are only two types of citizens, naturalized and natural born, is not only supported by unambiguous statements by the SCOTUS, but by Mario as well.

From these assumptions, the US Constitution (specifically the 14th Amendment), US statute (the Chinese Exculsion Act), a SCOTUS holding (that Mr. Wong was a citizen) and some established facts (like Mr. Wong's Chinese descent) it can be proven that President Obama is a natural born citizen.

On the other hand, the birthers have different (and often contradictory) sets of assumptions for each of their myriad theories as to why President Obama isn't natural born. For instance, neither you nor the other Apuzzites can make your case without assumptions like these:

The SCOTUS defined "natural born citizen" in Minor (no court case arguing this point has ever been successful and no holding from SCOTUS or any other court has cited this as a "definition" of natural born)

In using the term "natural born citizen" in the Constitution, the Founders were referring to a passage in a version of Vattel's Law of Nations translated after the Constituion was written (a very tenuous assumption to begin with, not even mentioning that a more accurate translation of the passge in question from original French would be something like "the indigenous peoples of a nation are those that are born in the country and the descendents of citizens")

The term "citizen" has a completely different meaning than does "subject" (this is hard to reconcile with the very clear statement in Minor that, beyond one being appropriate to those living under a monarchy and another being appropriate to members a republic, the terms are equivalent)

None of you will even renouce the assumption that President Obama wasn't born in Hawai'i, even though it seriously undermines your argumnet that he wasn't natural born even if he was born in Hawai'i. In fact, all of your comments are positively littered with assumptions.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

cont...

Take your recent ravings about John Jay. Here are a few of the assumptions implicit in your assertions:

When Jay argued for "a strong check against the admission of foreigners" he meant "the strongest possible check" and he considered those born citizens of other nations in addition to the US "foreigners".

When Jay wrote the words "natural born" after the Revolution, they meant something different to him than they did every single time he encountered them in his legal training and practice before the Revolution.

When Jay underlined the word "born", it wasn't merely to emphasize the importance that a future Commander-in-Chief be a citizen from birth rather than obtaining their citizenship at some point later in life.

Alexander Hamilton's wording of "born a citizen" wasn't just his layman's interpretation of his friend and fellow New Yorker Jay's suggestion and that the subcommittee of the Constitutional Convention didn't just translate the concept into the legal nomenclature with which they were familiar.

As for explaining the unknown in terms of the known, did you forget to try to explain what "natural born citizen" means in terms of "natural born subject"? Or the common law of the several states in terms of the common law followed by the colonies?

Face it, your entire worldview depends on a series of implicit assumptions, each less reasonable than the last, which makes a complete mockery of the idea that Ockham's razor favors any of your theories. It's one thing to mouth the words and quite another to demonstrate that you understand them.reasonable than the last, which makes a complete mockery of the idea that Ockham's razor favors any of your theories. It's one thing to mouth the words and quite another to demonstrate that you understand them.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

When talking about areas of math, such as set theory, all of the terms that you use must be defined precisely. What is the set-theoretic definition of the term "subordinate"? In other words, what does it mean to say that "set A is subordinate to set B"? If you want to talk in the language of math (a language in which I am fluent, as I hold a phd in math), you need to be able to answer questions like this.

Unfortunately, you seem to be unable to understand me when I speak in language that is precisely and unambiguously defined (although I would note that my second sentence should have read "First, you try to implicitly equate..."), but I'll try again to explain.

You tried to say that the term "subset" only refers to proper subsets which, as anyone who has studied set theory knows, is not true. As can be seen from this quote from Wikipedia:

A derived binary relation between two sets is the subset relation, also called set inclusion. If all the members of set A are also members of set B, then A is a subset of B, denoted A ⊆ B. For example, {1,2} is a subset of {1,2,3} , but {1,4} is not. From this definition, it is clear that a set is a subset of itself; for cases where one wishes to rule this out, the term proper subset is defined. A is called a proper subset of B if and only if A is a subset of B, but B is not a subset of A.

On top of this absurdity, you try to add the loaded and un-defined term "subordinate" in order to make the straw man argument that we are somehow making natural born citizens "subordinate" to citizens.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

You've really outdone yourself with your comment that included Mr. Hinman's letter.


Mr. Nash,

You do not like my saying that a child who becomes a “citizen of the United States” after birth derivatively through his or her parents is in effect a naturalized citizen. Well, I guess, you also disagree with U.S. Sen. Thomas F. Bayard.


I would point out that you disagree with Senator Bayard as well since he defined a "natrual born citizen" as a native.

Attorney A.P. Hinman challenged Arthur during his Vice Presidential bid saying that he was not born in the United States. No one argued that even if he were born in the United States, he was still not an Article II “natural born Citizen” because of his father’s foreign citizenship at the time of his birth which also made his mother an alien. Hence, the Chester Arthur example is not and cannot be treated as any precedent since the nation was not aware of the truth about his father’s and mother’s non-U.S. citizenship status at the time of his birth.

If you actually read Mr. Hinman's book it would be clear that he was well aware of Mr. Arthur's citizenship status. It begins by detailing the family history of President Arthur, starting before his father's emigration to America and following his father's employment and his parents' movement between the US and Canada before and after the president's birth. As Mr. Hinman seemed as desperate to attack the eligibility of President Arthur as birthers are to attack the eligibility of President Obama, the only conclusion we are left with is that he did not believe that the father's alienage comprimised the son's natrual born status. In light of this, your comment that "the nation was not aware" of the citizenship of President Arthur's parents is disingenuous at best.

See the article by Attorney Leo Donofrio at
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/urgent-historical-breakthrough-proof-chester-arthur-concealed-he-was-a-british-subject-at-birth/.


I seem to recall that the Paraclete is no longer practicing law. I wonder why... I remember Leo having a great deal of difficultly defending his legal reasoning over at Professor Turley's Res Ipsa Loquitur blog. I hope he's a better poker player than he is a lawyer. Or that I have the chance to sit across a table from him someday...

What is also important to note is that Hinman wrote to his senator in 1881, asking him what was the “construction” of the “natural born Citizen” clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. Here is the letter exchange:

You neglect to mention that he was interested in the location of President Arthur's birth, not the citizenship of his parents. The fact that he doesn't raise the issue of his father's citizenship in his book can only mean that Hinman, like Presdient Madison, believed that birth on the soil was sufficient to make one a (natural born) citizen.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

Hinman's letter and Bayard's response:

New York, January 7th, 1881.

Hon. THOS. F. BAYARD, U. S.

Senator.

DEAR SIR:--What is the construction of Article II., Sec. I, Clause 5, of the Constitution of the United States--that
“ No person, except a natural-born citizen, etc., shall be
eligible, etc."***

I would note that we don't know what was exculded in the "***".

Yours respectfully,

A. P. HINMAN

***
Senate of the United States.

City of Washington, January 10th, 1881

A. P. HINMAN, Esq., New York.

DEAR SIR :--In response to your letter of the 7th instant-
the term” natural-born citizen,” as used in the Constitution
and Statutes of the U. S., is held to be a native of
the U. S.

This is much more clearly a definition than the statement in Minor (which isn't a definition at all but merely a sufficient condition). And, of course, completely contrary to what you've argued.


The naturalization by law of a father before his child
attains the age of twenty-one, would be naturalization of
such minor.

To Mr. Hinman, arguing that President Arthur was born in Canada, this fact would be important to establishing that he was not natural born (because he would have obtained citizenship when his father naturalized if he hadn't obtained it by native birth). In President Obama's case, it's irrelevant.

Yours respectfully,

T. F. BAYARD (emphasis in the original)”

A.P. Hinman, How a British Subject Became President of the United States 89 (1884).

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

Mario: In responding to a question about the meaning of a natural born citizen, the Senator first stated that the child had to be a “native of the U.S.”

Me: No, he defined "natural born" as a "native of the US", which is consistent with the statement of James Madison, the citizenship law written by Thomas Jefferson, Lynch v. Clark, the 14th Amendement, and, of course, Wong Kim Ark.

He then also included the citizenship status of the child’s father.

Making the point that someone who became a citizen because his father naturalized would not be natural born. Once again, this does not apply to native born children of aliens who are (and always have been), according to the SCOTUS, born citizens.


He explained the then-existing naturalization law that applied to minors. In his explanation, Senator Bayard did not mention whether the son was born in the United States or abroad.

The fact that he did not mention it doesn't seem to stop you from begging the question...

This shows that place of birth of the child did not make a child a citizen when the child was born to alien parents.

Only that contradicts the statement of James Madison, the ruling in Lynch v. Clark and the 14th Amendment (which was merely declaratory of the law under the Constitution as originally written). In logic, when an assumption leads to a contradiction (let alone several), it means that assumption is not true.

Whether the child was born in the United States or abroad, the result would be the same if the child was born to alien parents.

Then why did Hinman ignore the citizenship of President Arthur's father and focus on the location of his birth? If you are right, then he was a total idiot.


cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

Mario: If the father was not born in the United States and not a U.S. citizen at the time of his child’s birth, the son, whether born in the United States or abroad, was also born a non-U.S. citizen and remained an alien until the father naturalized which by derivative right also made his child a U.S. citizen but only if the father so naturalized before the child turned 21 years old and if the child was then dwelling in the United States.

Me: If this were true, you would be able to find a naturalization record of someone who was born on US soil and whose father either didn't naturalize or did so after their 21st birthday. The inability of birthers to do so is strong circumstantial evidence (in addition to the overwhelming direct evidence) that they are wrong regarding the law.

We know that under naturalization laws, after turning the age of majority, the child had to naturalize in his or her own right and not derivatively through his or her father.

Unless, of course, the child was a citizen due to native birth.

Since Senator Bayard had prefaced his answer with the need that a child needed to be “a native of the U.S.,” we can concluded that the Senator was telling Hinman that a child born to an alien father who became a U.S. citizen only upon his father’s naturalization or on his own if done after his or her majority was a naturalized citizen and not a “native of the U.S.”

There is absolutely no reason to assume that the second part applies to the native born. Certainly not if Senator Bayard understood what Mr. Hinman was interested in.

Indeed, he told Hinman that a child born in the United States or out of it to alien parents was not a "native" citizen.

Senator Bayard said nothing of the sort. He said that natives were natural born citizens and (foreign-born) children who gained citizenship via their father's naturalization were not natural born citizens. Since Hinman was trying to prove that President Arthur's citizenship was due to his father's naturalization (since Hinman alleged he was born in Canada), it makes perfect sense


That child was therefore not a “natural born citizen.” In short, any child who was born in the United States to an alien father would need naturalization and could be a naturalized citizen but not a “natural born citizen.”

This is completely wrong since we know that under the Constitution as originally written, the expressed intent of the Father of the Constitution, James Madison, the 14th Amendment, and the rulings in both Lynch v. Clark (which I would note doesn't use any reasoning particular to New York in its rationale) and Wong Kim Ark native born children of aliens, save those of foreign diplomats became citizens at their birth. There is simply no way to reconcile this fact with your interpretation.

Slartibartfast said...

Leo,

A better analogy would be that there are two types of NFL players: drafted players and undrafted players. Unfortunately, that wouldn't allow you to make whatever straw man point was intended by your comment. No one is saying that all citizens are natural born citizens anymore than anyone would say that all NFL players were drafted. However, all drafted players are NFL players and every NFL player was either drafted or undrafted. It really is simple... unless, of course, you are deliberately obfuscating things to argue a point that is contrary to the evidence.

Unknown said...

But you are saying all citizens at birth are NBCs which is not true. A child of a alien and us citizen is also a citizen of whatever country the alien parent is from

Slartibartfast said...

Leo,

Once again, your response is disingenuous. The analogy doesn't say anything about who is sorted into one class (drafted players/natural born citizens) or the other (undrafted players/naturalized citizens), just that all NFL players (and all US citizens) are sorted into one of the two classes.

As for your assertion that you can't be a natural born citizen of the US if another country claims you as a citizen at birth, Spiro Agnew and President Arthur are both counterexamples which prove you wrong.

ajtelles said...

1/3

Two is the ONLY way to produce ONE

Mario, it seems that Slartibartfast, aka S...fast, had a thought dump last night, April 21, 2014, from 4:30 AM to 4:56 AM.

- - - - - - - - - -

S...fast said to me about my “subset” comments -

>> "You tried to say that the term "subset"
>> "only refers to proper subsets
>> "which, as anyone who has studied set theory knows,
>> "is not true.

>> "As can be seen from this quote from Wikipedia:

>> "A derived binary relation between two sets is the subset relation, also called set inclusion.
>> "If all the members of set A are also members of set B, then A is a subset of B, denoted A ⊆ B.
>> "For example, {1,2} is a subset of {1,2,3} , but {1,4} is not.
>> "From this definition, it is clear that a set is a subset of itself;
>> "for cases where one wishes to rule this out, the term proper subset is defined.
>> "A is called a proper subset of B if and only if A is a subset of B, but B is not a subset of A.

>> "On top of this absurdity, you try to add the loaded and un-defined term "subordinate" in order to make the straw man argument that we are somehow making natural born citizens "subordinate" to citizens."


- - - - - - - - - -

>> "You tried to say that the term "subset" only refers to proper subsets...”

S...fast, you said that I said something, but I did not use the word “proper” in any sentence. It was Mario who used the word “proper” in the penultimate sentence in the third point of his “set” and “subset” tutorial on April 19, 2014 at 8:48 PM,

>> “... except it does not define by such laws the objects of the NBC proper subset. … .”

I did notice S...fast, that you tried to ridicule my point of view about how to look at “natural born Citizen” and “citizen” with a unique angle but without denying the definition of “citizen” as the “universal set” as commonly understood and as Mario wrote on April 19, 2014 at 8:48 PM,

>> “First, Unknown/NotLinda still does not understand
>> “that all natural born citizens are citizens
>> “(being the universal set),
>> “but not all citizens are natural born citizens
>> “(being a proper subset-see below).”


- - - - - - - - - -

American Heritage Dictionary v Wikipedia

Again, S...fast, here is the definition of “Ockham's razor” which I posted here on April 14, 2014 at 8:54 PM from the

American Heritage Dictionary
Ock-ham's razor also Oc-cam's razor … n.
>> “A rule stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly,
>> “meaning that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable
>> “and that the unknown should first be explained in terms of the known.”

S...fast, what that means is that the simplest answer is best, and the unknown is explained by the known.

The simple answer is that two U.S. citizens is better than one U.S. citizen parent for national security.

The unknown that is explained by the known is that it is known that it takes two persons to tango and produce one child, and THAT known natural law explains the positive law unknown about why it takes two U.S. citizen parents to produce one “citizen” from birth who is a John Jay “natural born Citizen” from birth.

It does take two to tango, and it does take two U.S. citizen parents to pass on to their child the one positive law thing that they BOTH have in common, the status of “citizen” of their nation. It does take TWO to produce ONE, ONE child AND ONE “citizen” who is, at the SAME time of birth on U.S. soil to two U.S. citizen parents, ONLY THAT “citizen” from birth is ALSO a “natural born Citizen” from birth.

ajtelles said...

2/3

That means that a 1787 Article II “natural born Citizen” from birth is not subordinate to a 1787 Article II “citizen” from birth in importance, position or time. Both terms express the SAME thing because both terms mean the same thing, a 1787 “natural born Citizen” from birth is a “natural born Citizen” from birth BECAUSE the 1787 “citizen” from birth child was ONLY born on U.S. soil, and ONLY born to two U.S. citizen parents. Like the two sides of a pane of glass, BOTH appear at the SAME time, and neither is subordinate or superior to the other in importance, position OR time.

The previous paragraph does NOT mean the same thing as the comparison and contrast phrase, ALL 1787 “natural born Citizens” from birth are ALSO 1787 “citizens” from birth, but NONE of the 1790, 1795, 1868, 1952 naturalization acts and amendments and SCOTUS decisions “citizens” from birth are ALSO 1787 “natural born Citizens” from birth OR 1787 “citizens” from birth.

S...fast, what that means is that TWO is better than ONE.
S..fast, what that means is that it takes TWO to produce ONE.

As I wrote on on April 20, 2014 at 2:57 PM, and then again on April 20, 2014 at 10:04 PM:

>> "Another way of saying it is, Two is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

>> "Two persons are needed for birth, and two “citizens”, by either birth or naturalization, are needed for the SAME citizenship status as the parents to be passed on to their child.

The two U.S. citizen parents produce ONE “natural born Citizen” from birth.

>> "TWO is much better and more secure than One.
>> TWO is the only way to produce ONE.

>> "Two U.S. citizen parents is much better for national security than only one U.S. citizen parent, and two U.S. citizen parents is the ONLY way to produce ONE “natural born Citizen” from birth.

>> "That is Ockham's razor simplicity.

>> "Can the Obama-birthers defend their “one U.S. citizen parent Obama birth narrative protects national security just as good as two U.S. citizen parents” with Ockham's razor simplicity?

>> "Unknown, “someone”, anyone?"


Also, S...fast, in contrast to the thoughtful Wikipedia definition of “subset”, here is a thoughtful and also a very, very, VERY simple definition of “subset”, also from the

American Heritage Dictionary
sub-set … n.
“A set contained within a set”.

That's all.
That's it.
That sounds right on to me.
How about to you, S...fast?
How about to you, Unknown?

S...fast, the Wikipedia definition is accurate for those who might want and need a definitive articulation about "a derived binary relation between two sets, and in which “is the subset relation, also called set inclusion.

After it is read, a “normal person” who is not as informed as we are and simply wants to know “what does THAT mean”, might still be confused by your Wikipedia reference because you did not clarify your point, and then you segued into ridicule about my use of the word “subordinate” in explaining a unique angle about clarifying the union and distinction between “natural born Citizen” and “citizen” in a way that you did not, and Obama-birthers can not refute, in defending the “lower hurdle” inherent in the Obama birth narrative that ONLY one U.S. citizen is what John Jay intended and meant when he included the word “natural” before the two word phrase “born Citizen” that was suggested by Alexander Hamilton, and then Jay underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” in his note to George Washington, which implies a “higher hurdle” of ONLY birth on U.S. soil, and ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

ajtelles said...

3/3

You said -
>> "On top of this absurdity, you try to add the loaded and un-defined term "subordinate" in order to make the straw man argument that we are somehow making natural born citizens "subordinate" to citizens."

S...fast, “subordinate” is not a “set” and “subset” term, but it definitely is helpful to explain to us “normal people” who are not logicians, statisticians, lawyers or scholars with many letters after their names, the union and the distinction between “natural born Citizen” and “citizen” that helps to clarify, NOT that Obama-birthers “... are somehow making natural born citizens ' “subordinate” ' to citizens” ', but that Obama-birthers are misinformed when they say that a “citizen” from birth is ipso facto a “natural born Citizen” from birth, and so is eligible to be POTUS.

Which “citizen” from birth?

A 1787 “natural born Citizen” from birth who is a 1787 “citizen” from birth, or a 1795 Naturalization Act “citizen” from birth, or an 1868 14th amendment “citizen” from birth, or a SCOTUS Minor v Happersett “citizen” from birth, or a SCOTUS Wong Kim Ark “citizen” from birth, or a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act “citizen” from birth?

S...fast, since I'm only a “normal person” here and not an expert, scholar, statistician, lawyer, etc., and you present yourself as knowledgeable on everything and Mario is ignorant about everything that you disagree with him about, why don't you get in the ring and go toe-to-toe with Mario about the definition of “set” and “subset” in the context of a 1787 “natural born Citizen” from birth and a 1787 from birth or an 1868 “citizen” from birth, instead of a nebulous monologue about a Wikipedia definition that looks to be accurate but does not add substantive content to clarify if John Jay meant the “higher hurdle” of ONLY birth on U.S. soil, and ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents, OR did John Jay mean the “lower hurdle” of ONLY birth on U.S. soil, and ONLY birth to ONE U.S. citizen parent.

So, how about it, S...fast?

With Ockham's razor simplicity as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary, can you define and defend the Obama-birther narrative that the “lower hurdle” of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, whether born on U.S. soil OR on foreign soil, provides better security for the nation in the 21st century than the “higher hurdle” of TWO patriotic U.S. citizen parents, which is John Jay's 18th century implicit meaning when he underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” from birth, and suggested to George Washington that it was an excellent “higher hurdle” way to protect his Unknown and S...fast posterity from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic.

We're still waiting for a substantive rebuttal to the post on April 20, 2014 at 2:57 PM and at 10:04 PM,
>> "Another way of saying it is,
>> Two is the ONLY way to produce ONE.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

You believe that Ockham’s razor favors the Obots, when in fact it favors the Anti-Obots.

Per the rule, let us keep things real simple. The Constitution mentions citizens, natural born citizens, and citizens of the United States. It does not mention any other classes of citizens. The Constitution also gives Congress the power to make more citizens in the future through its naturalization powers. This power only gave Congress legal capacity to make citizens, not to make natural born citizens. This power included the legal capacity to make more citizens either at birth or after birth.

What follows from this simple scheme is that citizens are either natural born citizens or they are not. Regardless of the means by which citizens are made, from this we have just two sets of citizens, the natural born citizens as one set and those who are not natural born citizens as the other set. As to the latter set, not being natural born citizens, they must be citizens of the United States at birth or after birth to which Congress can add through its naturalization powers which does not include the power to make natural born citizens. Our Constitution was amended by the Fourteenth Amendment. This amendment could have changed the definition of an Article II natural born citizen, but it did not. This amendment, as can be seen from its plain text and legislative history, also added, not to those who can be natural born citizens, but rather to those who can be citizens of the United States.

Certainly, the Framers had a definition of a natural born citizen. It does not make sense that in Convention they first proposed that the President had to be a citizen and then eventually provided that he had to be a natural born citizen unless they had a distinct and well-developed definition of a natural born citizen that was different from that of a citizen. It also belies common sense for one to believe that when they first proposed that a person had to be a citizen in order to be eligible to be President, that such citizen did not include someone being a citizen from the moment of birth. Undoubtedly, Congress was given the power to make citizens from birth. So, if they wanted to eventually distinguish citizens from birth from those after birth, they could have simply said that “any citizen” at the time of the adoption of the Constitution was eligible to be President, and that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, no person who was not a “citizen from birth” was eligible for the office. They did not make such a word choice, but rather demanded that those born after the adoption of the Constitution be natural born citizens. The historical record demonstrates that they used the natural born citizen clause to keep out of the Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military foreign and monarchical influence. Hence, the Framers’ language selection points to the simple point that the clause had a specific definition which satisfied their national security policy needs.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

With this backdrop, the nature of a natural born citizen evokes the thought that for the Framers the definition of the clause must have been universal and immutable, i.e., its definition did not need any extension, development, or change by later generations. The definition was seen as continuing to provide the highest standard to be met for one to be eligible to be President, unless such standard was changed by constitutional amendment.

The English common law did not contain the clause “natural born citizen,” let alone define one. See U.S. v. Rhodes 27 F. Cas. 785, 788 (Cir. Ct. Ky 1866) (“The constitution uses the words 'citizen' and 'natural born citizens;' but neither that instrument nor any act of congress has attempted to define their meaning. British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject . . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject”). Additionally, our U.S. Supreme Court has never defined a natural born citizen under the English common law. On the other hand, the law of nations, upon which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers relied heavily for their revolution and to constitute and operate the new nation, not only contained the clause but also specifically defined one. This law of nations definition was also consistent with how John Locke defined citizenship, basing it on the consent given by parents during a child’s years of minority with the child once reaching majority becoming free and thus able to cast off the citizenship he or she inherited from the parents from birth and take on another one.

The only definition of a natural born citizen that is consistent with the Framers’ mindset as described above is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, which is the definition of the clause as found in the law of nations and which definition was incorporated into American common law. We know that this is correct because the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875) told us so. (“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”) So, this common law defined both citizens and natural born citizens. Under this common law, all persons who were not born in the country to parents who were its citizens were “aliens or foreigners.” According to the original Constitution, if these persons wanted to become citizens, they would have to satisfy a naturalization Act of Congress or treaty which abrogated that part of the common law which made citizens and which again, under our federal system made them citizens of the United States and not natural born citizens. With the Fourteenth Amendment, they could also satisfy that amendment which like Acts of Congress, made those persons citizens of the United States, but not natural born citizens.

This is a much simpler explanation of how the Framers defined a natural born citizen than your invented torturous sets and subsets and Wong Kim Ark English common law one, with its myriad misstatements, omissions, and manipulations concerning the historical and legal evidence on the meaning of American citizenship after July 4, 1776. For sure, the Obots, like Justice Gray, have to drive large squares into small circles. On the other hand, the Anti-Obots put forth only free flowing small circles within larger circles.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

I looked back at your posts on set theory and apparently I was mistaken as to your equating subsets and proper subsets (in my defense, you are trying to use mathematical language to obfuscate rather than clarify your argument). My apologies.

However, my criticism regarding the term "subordinate" being undefined in terms of set theory is still valid. Please explain what "Set B is subordinate to set A" means in terms of set theory (in other words, without the use of an analogy). If you can't do this, your analogy to citizenship has no meaning.

ajtelles said...

Ockham's razor Bingo...

Mario, on April 21, 2014 at 6:24 PM, you wrote to Slartibartfast,

>> "You believe that Ockham’s razor favors the Obots,
>> "when in fact it favors the Anti-Obots.

>> "It also belies common sense
>> "for one to believe that
>> "when they first proposed that
>> "a person had to be a citizen
>> "in order to be eligible to be President,
>> "that such citizen
>> "did not include
>> "someone being a citizen
>> "from the moment of birth."


- - - - - - - - - -

Bingo.

Your comment quoted above is a preamble of common sense to what I said earlier to S...fast, TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

It takes TWO U.S. citizen parents to produce ONE U.S. citizen from birth who is eligible to be POTUS because that "citizen" from birth is ALSO, from the instant of touch down on U.S. soil, a "natural born Citizen" from birth.

In competing theories, the simplest common sense theory is preferable to the theory that is confusing and contrary to common sense.

The Ockham's razor simplicity is that the simple answer is that two U.S. citizens is better than one U.S. citizen parent for national security.

It does not make sense that one U.S. citizen parent and one foreign citizen parent can produce a U.S. “citizen” from birth who is ALSO a “natural born Citizen” from birth with the “citizen” status from ONLY one U.S. citizen parent. The foreign citizen parent can not bestow on the child what the foreign citizen parent does NOT own, the U.S. citizen from birth status.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

thalightguy said...

Petition 13-1076 was filed with the Supreme Court on 3/6/14. Waiver of rights by respondent was filed on 3/26/14. The Court has yet to release an order for the case.

Does anyone care to speculate as to why?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

The Obots have long conceded that all natural born citizens are citizens, but not all citizens are natural born citizens. Yet, the Obots for years have been arguing that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens. Clearly, they are wrong in making such a statement, for if the first statement is true which it is, natural born citizens can only be a proper subset of citizens.

Slartibartfast, you said that you have a Ph.D in mathematics. Do you admit that the Obots all these years have been wrong in arguing that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens?

Slartibartfast said...

What are you talking about Mario? The statement:

"Natural born citizens are a proper subset of citizens"

IMPLIES

"Natural born citizens are a subset of citizens"

You want me to admit that something is false because of a statement which proves it to be true? That's got to be one of the most twisted bits of logic I've ever heard.

Let me lay this out as precisely as possible.

Let C be the set of all citizens of the United States (also referred to as "citizens" in the Constitution)

Let B be the set of natural born citizens

Let N be the set of naturalized citizens

Then C is equal to the union of B and N, and the intersection of B and N is the empty set.

Thus B and N are both subsets of C and, since neither B nor N are empty, they are both proper subsets.

Do you disagree with any of this? If so, what, specifically?

Unknown said...

Arthur was the other illegal president. If agnew was not born in US to american citizens then he was not eligible for CiC or VP. Saying all citizens at birth are NBCs is not just disengenous but downright dishonest. NA 1795 and A2 speak for themselves...mario and the rest of us who go by minor and the actual acts of congress do not need to twist, distort and lie about citizens and natural born citizens, we merely go by what the Constitution and the highest authoritys say.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

You're missing the point about what "simple" means in Ockham's razor. In this context "simplest" is equivalent to "has the fewest assumptions". I have an argument (below) which depends on only two assumptions, both of which are solidly supported. You, on the other hand, spout nonsense about "two is the only way to produce one", somehow extracting talk about "high hurdles" and "low hurdles" from the phrase "strong check against the admission of foreigners" while making a straw man of the position of myself and other anti-birthers.

I have never argued that one citizen parent is necessary for natural born citizenship---that's your straw man. If you are unwilling to so much as honestly acknowledge your opponent's position, there is no hope that you can make any kind of credible counter-argument.

I believe that "natural born" means exactly the same thing when it modifies "citizen" as it does when it modifies "subject". In other words, anyone who would have been considered a natural born subject of a colony before the revolution was considered a natural born citizen of both that state and the United States afterwards. This persisted (except to the extent that it was explicitly changed, which didn't happen in any state) until the ratification of the Constitution. At that point, all children born subject to US jurisdiction were natural born citizens, and I suspect that children born citizens outside of the US according to state law would have been considered natural born as well, although once Congress exercised its power to make a uniform rule for naturalization, the question was moot. With the Naturalization Act of 1790, Congress established that it had the right to add to the class of natural born citizens (I don't believe it would have had the right to restrict jus soli citizenship). While later naturalization acts did not explicitly exercise this power, Unknown cited the SCOTUS as holding that the spirit of these acts remained the same. Therefore anyone born subject to US jurisdiction or born a citizen by statute is considered natural born in my opinion (not to mention the opinion of every US court that's ruled on the matter).

As a result of this, President Obama is a natural born citizen by the fundamental principle of jus soli which has been settled law for over a century. There has never been any question that everyone born under US jurisdiction is a natural born citizen since the SCOTUS ruled that Mr. Wong was a citizen. Any legal theory that argues otherwise is frivolous and any competent attorney realizes that they make such arguments at the risk of sanctions by the court (certainly Mario is aware of this since he was given an order to show cause why he shouldn't be sanctioned).

Rafael Cruz, on the other hand, is a natural born citizen by Congressional statute. While I don't think it would be successful, I believe that a non-frivolous argument could be made that Congress didn't have the right to extend the definition of "natural born". Certainly John McCain's potential opponents in the Senate made it clear that they would not raise the issue with the Senate resolution. While this argument is non-frivolous, I think that, since it would ultimately lose, it would do more political damage to the plaintiff than the defendant, so I don't expect any major party candidate to try it, although some birther candidate may try a ballot challenge in the Republican primary.

That's my position and I'll stand behind it. What I wont stand behind is any caricature or outright distortion of this position that you ascribe to me because you are unable to refute my actual argument.

Slartibartfast said...

thatlightguy,

What that means is that Mario's case will be scheduled for conference (sometime in early May, I believe) after which it will be denied without comment.

Even if 4 SCOTUS justices were interested in hearing the case, they would have to turn it down because Mario failed to identify a Constitutional defect in the ruling of the Vermont Supreme Court, so the SCOTUS has no jurisdiction.

I know you don't believe me, but just remember that I predicted this would happen when it turns out exactly how I said.

«Oldest ‹Older   1601 – 1800 of 3179   Newer› Newest»