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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Unknown said...

So Lincoln and Reagan were only citizens of the US obot? They were also natural born citizens being born in US to americans. My wife and i are citizens of the US but unlike me she was not born in US to american citizens. A citizen only like her is not eligible. She was a natural born citizen of the Philippines and is now a citizen of the US after renouncing all allegiances to foreign countrys and despite taking a oath solely to the US Constitution she is barred from being CiC in article 2. Barry is still a british citizen to this day and yet even though he has multiple allegiances he would be eligible in the mind of George Washington? That is a joke

ajtelles said...

Help...

Mario, how can you tolerate the fluff stuff from Stranger/a.r.nash like what he wrote March 3, 2014 at 4:13 PM?

I'm not even going to start to respond to any of it directly to him, so I will direct the response to you, "Mr. Speaker," as they say in the House of Representatives, what he directed at me, such as "ajtelles is in la-la land it seems."

His response is incoherent without a sensible intro, with an ambiguous body that does not answer anything about my previous comments directed at him on March 3, 2014 at 10:22 AM about "marriage" in 1787 America, and his response has an inconclusive end.

He answered nothing about the 1787 understanding of "marriage" and the societal and local community blessing on the union of two heterosexual persons (male and female in 1787 America and for future generations too, unless the Constitution is amended in an Article V convention of states), a union of two heterosexual persons to produce at least one child, and the union producing a child being a prerequisite for the child being a 'natural born Citizen' because the union was of two U.S. citizens.

I wonder, Mario, are you writing a book and getting, uh, unusual quotes for it from various sources that do not understand or can not admit that they are wrong about the original intent of the original birthers who authored the permanent three word unit "natural born Citizen" and the temporary words "... or a Citizen"?

Just wonderin'... Mr. Speaker.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

MichaelN said...

What "common law" was SCOTUS referring to in the Minor v Happersett case?

Why would the SCOTUS in the MvH case recognize doubts as unsolved, where it was doubted that native-birth to alien parents made a citizen at all?

Kev?

Unknown?

Other cockroaches?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Leo,

I asked Unknown to give me an example of someone in recent times who was a “citizen of the United States” and also eligible to be President. Notice that she gave us as examples Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush. Notice that while she was very “proud” to tell us what positions they held and that they were constitutionally eligible for those positions, she also did not tell us that they were natural born citizens. What she does not want the reader to focus on is that what made them eligible to be President was not that they were citizens of the United States, but rather natural born citizens.

People like Unknown attempt to mislead people with the “citizen of the United States” angle, conflating and confounding them into natural born citizens, because that is all Obama (if born in the United States) and Cruz can be. As I have demonstrated, they may be citizens, but they are not and cannot be natural born citizens.

Presidential eligibility by being just a citizen sunset with births before and up to the adoption of the Constitution in 1787. So both Obama and Cruz are a little too late. In an Article II constitutional sense, Obama and Cruz are neither a “natural born Citizen, [n]or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.” Hence, they are both not eligible to be President.

Unknown said...

You know the obots like linda are running out of lies mario when she says reagan was a citizen of the US and yet he was still CiC, as if he was not a NBC too. Some obot on western journalism told me i was WRONG about the child of a alien being a citizen only at best and ed meese using the ECL to (haha) define a NBC as well as orrin hatch saying anyone born within US jurisdiction is a NBC. Orrin should read the 14th for once or actually any part of the Constitution. I am sick of hearing about some judges interpretaion too of the US C when anyone can read the plain language in it, not that all of it is easy to understand without some research into the "nomenclature" that the Framers were familiar with.

MichaelN said...

To those who are lurking in the shadows and/or those just interested to know the truth of the matter of eligibility for POTUS.

To be a native-born "citizen of the United States" one must be born in US and "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" (14th Amendment).

"subject to the jurisdiction thereof" has been interpreted by the SCOTUS as not only native-birth, but also some degree of allegiance to the US on the part of the parents of the native-born.

Ergo: Two qualities are required to make a 14th Amendment native-born "citizen of the United States"; native-birth alone is not enough.

Then we have an eligibility criteria to be met by those who would ALREADY be native-born "citizens of the United States" to be President of the United States, where, besides age and residency requirements, the eligible native-born "citizens of the United States" must also be "natural born Citizens" of the United States.

The question is......

What makes one native-born "citizen of the United States" a
"natural born Citizen" of the United States and thus eligible to be POTUS, and yet another native-born "citizen of the United States" NOT a "natural born Citizen" of the United States?

They were both native-born, so it can't be that.

The answer is, that it is the different degrees of allegiance on the part of the parents of the native-born "citizen of the United States".

One native-born "citizen of the United States" may be born to non-citizen alien parents, who have a weak and uncertain allegiance to the United States, and another native-born "citizen of the United States" may be born to US citizen parents, who have a strong and certain allegiance to the United States.

It is certain that allegiance of parents was and is a major deciding factor in determining the citizenship status of their children, as can be seen with a reading of the US naturalization acts.

Native birth alone was NEVER opined or held to make a natural born subject in English law, nor was native-birth alone sufficient to make a "citizen of the United States" let alone an Article II "natural born Citizen" of the United States.

Carlyle said...

What think you of this scenario?

Let us say that in the near future, conclusive facts emerge that prove (even by obot standards) that Obama is not NBC.

I believe the following would happen, and that the paperwork/process is already prepared and in the hip pocket ready to be trotted out if needed.

The US Senate will "deem" him to be NBC for the purposes of the constitutional requirement.

They of course will be stepping way outside their lawful authority in doing this but perhaps everybody will just roll over and accept it.

Should anybody file a suit, it will take years to work it's way through the courts. At which point his term will have expired and the action will be moot or "not timely".

At some point, you might even find a high court that - in the spirit of liberal activism - upholds the Senate declaration. Then the USSC could choose to refuse to hear the case.

In short, I am pretty sure that The Putative President will never fall over this particular issue.

However, I remain reasonably convinced that he is no kind of citizen at all. In which case it would be hard for him to stay afloat in the face of that kind of proof.

My 2¢ worth - - -

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN., in free republics comprised of free citizens, "allegiance" is not "owed" to anything except the foundational charter of the nation.

It is not owed to government, nor to its leaders, so there is no analogy in America to British allegiance "owed" to the dictator on the throne based on the Divine Right of Kings.
No such allegiance is an element of a society of free men who owe each other allegiance, -which means they owe each other their service in the defense of their nation, regardless of the cost to them.

In place of allegiance to the King is one's natural duty to one's own. All who are able, are obligated by natural and national bonds to defend the old and the young, the female and the disabled from foreign conquest and subjugation, or worse.

Allegiance is nothing other than faithful loyalty. Loyalty is not "owed" by free men, -it is theirs to give or not give, -a personal devotion or choice, just like nationality, -which can be switched.

In free republics, citizens are not measured by degrees of loyalty as if under a king. They are instead obligated by their co-responsibility for the survival (in freedom) of the nation.

The chosen laws of free nations include, when required, the mandatory participation in national defense. One's sense of loyalty is irrelevant.
One's duty under law is all that is. Shirk that duty and you go to prison.
That duty springs from birth as a member of one's parents' society. That membership binds one to their shared duty.
Only those born of members are naturally under that duty. And no one not born of natural members is allowed to command the armies of the nation because of the risk of secret loyalty to a foreign power.

~please learn more via my just posted new exposition:

How "The Ring of Power" and a Traitor Shaped Presidential Eligibility
It shares how history, -from Caesars to Kings to traitors influenced the thinking of the framers.
http://h2ooflife.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/how-rome-limited-presidential-eligibility2.pdf

Stranger said...

a.r.nash shares...

an excerpt from "How The Ring of Power and a Traitor Shaped Presidential Eligibility"

"There was not enough military might in Britain to provide full assurance of peace with ambitious and aggressive European neighbors, so to ensure peace & security, -and a sense of fraternity between nations, it was necessary for heirs to the throne to marry foreign royals.
Thus, once that was established as the custom, the Queen, the woman that the King of England married, was inevitably a foreigner. One hundred percent not British.
That was worse than a case of a one or two term President’s wife being say... Russian, -or Chinese.

Now far worse than that was the case in reverse, -where there was no male heir to the throne and so a daughter of the King had to be installed as the Queen of all England or all Britain.

According to royal custom, she must marry outside of England to maintain bloodline-ties to the royalty and aristocracy of Europe and Russia.
Well! That was something highly conducive to producing great danger for the nation, since she would be married for life to a loyal royal from a foreign nation.
-And a woman by custom was viewed as subject to her head, -her husband who she swore to obey with a sacred marriage vow.

What possible status quo situation could be more fraught with more potential for foreign plots against the sovereignty of the nation?

Imagine a female President for life married to Vladimir Putin. That was the situation when a British Queen married a foreign royal.

Stranger said...

a.nash writes:

excerpt 2.

Human ambition, when placed in a role of unquestioned authority and power, could never be trusted to do the right thing and remain subject to the law instead of superior to it. Power corrupts, and absolute power....

The satanic spirit of desiring to be an almighty God over everyone else is too powerful and irresistible when a man is placed in a position of such great control that he can become a god on Earth.

That fact has been well illustrated in many films involving a satanic villain. We’ve seen it is the Lord of the Rings, -influencing Sauroman, -and in the end even Frodo, and everyone that came close to it.
It is an irresistible influence since the human psyche has nothing but a welcoming attitude toward it, -resisting only if, like Gandolf, one knows that they are highly susceptible to the crack cocaine of the human ego and thus avoids any contact with such power. (he would not even touch the Ring of Power)
He knew that when it counted the most, “the strength of men failed”, and he was no less human than all others.

Another great example is that of Xerxes in “The 300”, “a generous god” who was totally satanic, -a deity in his own mind, and those of others.

If the Romans could not trust the very finest of their own people, (Julius Caesar) how could they possibly trust the sons of their conquered lands to be Chief Commander of the Armies of Rome?

They couldn’t and didn’t. He had to be Roman born, not just subject-born, -but not necessarily born in Rome, -although that was very preferred.

MichaelN said...

@ Stranger.

Thanks, but no thanks.

In other words, I for one don't come here to read your three and four page essays with your ad nauseam theories, fantasies and lectures about off-topic stuff, where you are using Mario's blog as a platform to attract people to your own blog with your theories and opinions, which generally and for the most part have no foundation whatsoever in US Constitutional law, history, practice, etc.

This blog here is Mario's blog and it's basically about the US Constitutional meaning of "natural born Citizen" of the United States.

The point is that native-birth AND parental allegiance are and were BOTH essential and REQUIRED qualities to be weighed when determining basic US citizenship and to determine eligibility of US citizens for the office of POTUS........ PERIOD!

I don't wish to go to your blog and I haven't been to your blog and won't be going to your blog. I for one am not interested in your unsubstantiated theories, which for the most part are completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

For the last time......

It is proven fact that, in the case of those native-born in the US, BOTH native-birth in US AND parental allegiance were and are essential qualities which were and are weighed when determining US citizenship and also for determining which native-born US citizens are Article II "natural born Citizens".


MichaelN said...

"According to the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), an alien is an individual who does not have U.S. citizenship and is not a U.S. national.

The INA defines a national of the United States as one who, while not a citizen, owes permanent allegiance to the United States.

One owes personal allegiance to the United States if that person has taken an oath of naturalization.....

In return for the U.S. granting temporary residence, these aliens owe "temporary allegiance" to the United States....."

http://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/alien

Ergo: Per US laws, aliens and US citizens owe allegiance to the United States.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash responds:

"One owes personal allegiance to the United States if that person has taken an oath of naturalization

In return for the U.S. granting temporary residence, these ALIENS owe "temporary allegiance" to the United States....."

Ergo: Per US laws, aliens and US citizens owe allegiance to the United States

Michael, Wake up! ALIENS are not CITIZENS. There is no mention of Americans owing allegiance to anyone or anything other than the Constitution and their citizenship duty. Foreigners do and must in order to be one of us. Americans do not takes oaths of allegiance unless assuming positions of authority. Then their allegiance is to the Constitution and the rule of law.

Americans do NOT owe their government allegiance. The government owes us allegiance, along with the Constitution.

You talk like the government is king. American citizens are never told that they must show or prove their allegiance. What they are told is that if they fail to appear for military induction when ordered then they will be subject to arrest and imprisonment.
The government does not deal with its own with high concept talk. It just tells you the law and the consequences of breaking it.

By law every male owes his nation a duty of national defense. That is our role in life, -as defenders.

Immigrants are subject to that same duty (even though they have no citizenship privileges) because of WKA and because they are members of American society.

The real-world trade off is: citizenship for their children but military service obligation for all foreign premanent-resident men.

It's best to get in touch with the real world, -where life is lived.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Carlyle said... Let us say that in the near future, conclusive facts emerge that prove (even by obot standards) that Obama is not NBC.

I'm not sure you grasp the real inference of your words. Obots do not have a standard for NBC other than children of ambassadors and naturalized citizens are not it.

I just posted a new exposition titled: How Obama Jr. Makes Hitler Jr. Eligible
In it I shine a spotlight on the incredible position of the obots than ANYONE born in the U.S. can be President as long as their father isn't a foreign ambassador.

I share how my thinking was always influenced by the factor of his American mother, but I strip her from the picture and substitute Hitler's pregnant wife.
Result: a natural born American citizen in their deluded eyes.

What kind of a standard is that? Native birth = Presidential eligibility. Period.

Nothing else will legitimize him, even naturalized citizenship given to children of immigrants per WKA since his father was not an immigrant and thus wasn't subject to America's full sovereign authority.
By it, he is not even a citizen even if born in the White House, -so they can't go by it. They have to go by a fantasy that the 14th Amendment bestows natural citizenship and that the second of its two requirements does not exist as written.

The delusion is that required subjection is automatic except for foreign ambassadors, -with children of all other foreigners being automatically American. FALSE!

Children weren't subject, women weren't subject, immigrants and their children weren't subject until the Wong court declared that they were. Then BINGO! Citizenship for all immigrant-born children.

But A.G. John Griggs changed that into a policy not that just immigrants were subject, but all aliens were subject, although many aliens are not immigrants and are thus excluded. But not in the obots Bizarro world where even alien-born children are natural born citizens because natural means native.

Carlyle said...

@stranger -

Yeah, sure, I get it - obots have no consistent defensible theory other than whatever makes their messiah eligible - but that was not my real point.

I was interested in comments upon my scenario. If you wish, you can begin the story differently:

Suppose The Obama were born in Kenya, or Canada. Or suppose he were a foundling with unknown origins. Then - - -

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The position of the Obots and Anti-Obots on the definition of an Article II “natural born citizen” may be summarized as follows: the Obots tell us that Buffalo wings came from buffalo. The Anti-Obots tell us they came from Buffalo, New York. Now, you decide who is buffaloing who.

Unknown said...

I think we all know by now that barry is bulletproof because we have too many spineless, immoral people in Congress and courts.. i do not know what his story is but i do know real us citizens have real birth certificates, legit socials and selective service registrations so i would say he is not a NBC or citizen of the US. The guy is definitely a serial liar. Honest historians will vindicate the birthers. The warren commission has already been blown out of the water

Stranger said...

a.nash writes;

Mario, that reminds me of a recent thought that I haven't written down yet, which follows this misspelling: whitch.
Which word is that meant to be; "witch" or "which"? It's ambiguous if actually used.

It's like the creation of the term "natural born subject" to refer to the Scots in the Calvin decision.

In 1600, everyone knew what a born subject of England was, as well as a natural subject of England.
All who were subject-born were natural subjects of England, but the court mashed the two terms together and created an equivalent of whitch. A "natural born subject" -not of England but of the King.
That way, the foreign Scotsmen could bypass English law and inherit English land as "natural born subjects" of the king, instead of the correct legal designation of Englishmen, aka, natural members of the nation. Linguistic gymnastics have been used far and wide to legitimize the illegitimate by bastardizing language. e.g.; Penalty = Tax.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution, former English subjects and aliens became through a naturalization by condition “citizens” of the states in which they resided. Citizens of free and independent states formed after July 4, 1776 became 'citizens of the United States' at the time the Constitution was ratified, retroactive to its adoption."

Close, but not quite. Our legal tradition has been to retroactively date the United States beginning at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. For proof that the Founders and Framers thought there to be Citizens of the United States from before the adoption of the Constitution, observe:

* The Constitutional Convention adopted the Constitution in 1787.

* The First United States Congress convened in 1789.

* According to Article I, no Person shall be a Representative who shall not have been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and no person shall be a Senator who shall not have been nine Years a Citizen of the United States.

Had United States citizenship began with adoption of the Constitution, no one would have been eligible to be a representative nor senator in the First Congress.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Clearly, how Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 sets 'natural born citizens' apart from 'Citizens of the United States,' none of these 'citizens of the United States' were nor could they be 'natural born citizens.'"

That's wrong in multiple ways. All Auricle II natural born citizens are citizens of the United States. Article II recognizes two sets meeting the citizenship requirements for the presidency: "natural born Citizen(s)" and "Citizen(s) of the United States at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution". Some people have been both, some neither, some natural-born citizens but not citizens of the United States at the time of the Adoption of the Constitution, others were citizens of the United States at the time of the Adoption of the Constitution but not natural-born citizens.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote, to Slartibartfast:
"Yet you speak about some 'citizen of the United States' who is supposed to be also a 'natural born citizen' at the time that the Constitution was adopted and ratified."

Did he? He could have -- there must have been some -- but I missed where he spoke of them.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I have asked you, Unknown/NotLinda, and Stranger/Adrien Nash for a source in which this mysterious citizen may be located. None of you have yet to provide me with that source."

You keep changing your question, and some of your formulations mixed in nonsense, but over and over I've met your cchallege and provided you with examples of citizens that disprove the statement of your at issue. Your wrote, "You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."

No; I love that statement of yours. It's so easy to debunk. If "any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President", then how come I have such an easy time naming people born after the adoption of the Constitution who were citizens of the United States that, contrary to your claim, Mr. Apuzzo, were still eligible to be President?

ajtelles said...

Very clear...

Mario, your third paragraph comment to Leo on March 4, 2014 at 9:33 AM about the non-response by Unknown is very clear.

[...]

"So both Obama and Cruz are a little too late.

>> " 'In an Article II constitutional sense,
>> Obama and Cruz are neither a “natural born Citizen,
>> [n]or a Citizen of the United States,
>> at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.'

"Hence, they are both not eligible to be President."

- - - - - - - - - -

It is soooooo clear what "at the time ... Adoption ..." meant to the 1787 original birthers.

At AND From the time of the 'adoption' of the constitution on September 17, 1787, BOTH a 'natural born Citizen' "citizen" AND an '... or a Citizen' "citizen" were "... eligible to the Office of the President."

However, since the LAST '... or a Citizen' died sometime in the 1800s, ONLY a 'natural born Citizen' citizen is eligible.

Since there was no 'natural born Citizen' who had resided on U.S. soil for at least 14 years by the age of 35 who could ONLY fulfill the 14 year residence requirement by FIRST being born on U.S. soil to two U.S. citizen married parents since July 4, 1776 and up to September 17, 1787, about 11 years and 2 months, well, ONLY an "...or a Citizen" citizen who had been born BEFORE July 4, 1776 to two 'married' to each other British America "subjects" and naturalized by independence, ONLY that “citizen” was "... eligible to the Office of of the President" 'at' AND 'from' September 17, 1787 UNTIL the LAST “... or a Citizen” citizen died sometime in the 1800s.

Yep, 'national health care commune organizer' Obama and my home state Texas and favorite U.S. Senator who opposes Obama's national commune policies, Rafael Edward 'Ted' Cruz, BOTH are “too late” and, in an Article II constitutional sense, BOTH

>> “… are neither a “natural born Citizen,
>> [n]or a Citizen of the United States,
>> at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.'

And I really really REALLY like Sen. Cruz's common sense constitutional conservatism, but he is simply not eligible according to the birth on U.S. soil to two married U.S. Citizen parents implications and the explicit 14 years residence on the SAME U.S. soil by the age of 35 explicit words of Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

Mario, it's a 'pain in the brain' being honest when 'MY GUY' is not eligible to the Office of POTUS, but honesty is definitely fulfilling.

Art
OribinalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

I said:

"Through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution, former English subjects and aliens became through a naturalization by condition “citizens” of the states in which they resided. Citizens of free and independent states formed after July 4, 1776 became 'citizens of the United States' at the time the Constitution was ratified, retroactive to its adoption."

You replied:

“Close, but not quite. Our legal tradition has been to retroactively date the United States beginning at the signing of the Declaration of Independence. For proof that the Founders and Framers thought there to be Citizens of the United States from before the adoption of the Constitution, observe:

* The Constitutional Convention adopted the Constitution in 1787.

* The First United States Congress convened in 1789.

* According to Article I, no Person shall be a Representative who shall not have been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and no person shall be a Senator who shall not have been nine Years a Citizen of the United States.

Had United States citizenship began with adoption of the Constitution, no one would have been eligible to be a representative nor senator in the First Congress.”

My reply:

You disagree with me as to when persons first became “citizens of the United States.” While both of us agree as to the retroactive effect given to the status of a “citizen of the United States,” your error is in not keeping separate that effective date from the date the status of a “citizen of the United States” was actually created. Allow me to explain.

The Declaration Independence, signed on July 4, 1776 by the representatives of the “united States of America,” absolved the English colonies “from all Allegiance to the British Crown” and severed “all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain.” Hence, the Declaration broke the political allegiance and tie that existed between the English colonies and Great Britain. Upon that political separation, the colonies became “Free and Independent States,” and joined the nations of the world as individual republics guided by the law of nations. Therefore, the separation did not create the nation called the “United States of America.” In order for that separation to have any real and lasting effect, the individual states of America, united together and went to war against Great Britain. had to win that war with Great Britain which they did.
The subjects of the colonies, through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution, become “citizens” of their respective states as of July 4, 1776. At that time, there was no nation called the United States of which to be a citizen.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

The individual states saw themselves as too weak to compete militarily with the powerful nation states of Europe. So they decided to join forces again. These states adopted the Articles of Confederation and Perpetual Union on Nov. 15, 1777, and ratified them on March 1, 1781. The Articles created a loose confederation of states, or what the Articles called “a firm league of friendship.” The framers gave that confederation a name, declaring: “The style of this confederacy shall be “THE UNITED STATE OF AMERICA” (capitalization in the original), adding that “the Union shall be perpetual.” But under that confederacy, the states retained their sovereignty, freedom, and independence, power, jurisdiction, and rights, except to the extent they were delegated to “the United States, in Congress assembled.” The states gave up some of their sovereignty only in matters affecting international relations and military defense. Congress needed the consent of at least nine states to act on matters of military defense and financial affairs that affected all the states. And there was no separate nation called the United States of America, but rather only the United States, in Congress assembled. Congress was only a government entity which allowed the states to come together and act on their mutual interests and to provide the states with military defense in the international arena. But Congress was not given any power to force the states to pay any money to any central power or to supply it with troops to be used for their mutual defense. Moreover, the Articles made no mention of any national citizens, but rather only of “free citizens in the several States.” Hence, the Articles did not create the United States as we know it today as a federal power with membership by its people in any national entity.

Because the union of states was about to collapse, delegates from five states again got together “in Order to form a more perfect Union,” at Annapolis, Maryland, where they agreed to have a constitutional convention in Philadelphia. The Constitution, adopted in Philadelphia on September 17, 1787, and called “The Constitution of the United States of America,” when it was ratified in 1788 created for the first time the United States as a nation separate from the states. But even though the United States as a separate nation was not actually created until 1788, it has in our tradition been given a retroactive starting date of July 4, 1776. Hence, we can see that the United States as a nation was created on one date, but given a starting date on an earlier date.

Similarly, our national U.S. citizenship also has two starting dates. Through the Constitution, state citizens for the first time became “citizens of the United States” when the Constitution was ratified. But their status as “Citizens of the United States” would have been effective as of the adoption of the Constitution, if they were state citizens on that day, which was needed for Presidential eligibility purposes under the grandfather clause, and also as of July 4, 1776, when the states were created and state citizenship began, again if they became state citizens on that day. So, the status of a “citizen of the United States” was first recognized as of the ratification of the Constitution because that is when the United States as a separate nation was created, but the status was given effect as of July 4, 1776, when there existed only states.

With the status of a “citizen of the United States” given effect as of July 4, 1776, and the first U.S. Congress convening in 1789, there would have been persons in being at that time who would have been “citizens of the United States” for 13 years which was more than enough for eligibility for the House (minimum of 7 years a “citizen of the United States”) and for the Senate (minimum of 9 years a “citizen of the United States).

So, the date on which persons first became “citizens of the United States” is one thing. That on that date that citizenship was given a retroactive effect is another.

thalightguy said...

Mario,

I have a question regarding the SCOTUS Petition for Paige v. Vermont.

Found within are the two phrases, “natural born Citizen” and “natural born citizen”; What is the significant difference between the two, other than the first being the exact Constitutional wording?

Unknown said...

If obots had any integrity and pride they would not keep coming here embarrassing themselves. The Founders risked everything and wouldve been executed by the King if they had lost that war and yet we cannot get one member of Congress, ted cruz and rand paul included, to say anything about usurpers forgerys and ineligibility. None of them are worthy to tie George Washingtons shoes. Thanks mario for another history lesson on when citizens of the states became citizens of the US

Slartibartfast said...

Part 7 of nine,


Well, let's see how everyone did in my little encore:

Mario unleashed a typical gout of logorrhea, but he failed to address why he thinks that dicta from an overturned voting rights case which articulates a sufficient condition for natural born citizenship but expresses doubts about the necessary condition should be taken as a precedential definition rather than the holding of a later case on citizenship where both Binney and Calvin's case were cited favorably and where the eligibility of the subject for the presidency was implied by arguments made in court.

Mario,

I don't know what you are looking for in your constant requests for a "citizen of the United States" eligible to be president---the fact is that all those who are eligible to be president are citizens of the United States. In other words, being a citizen of the US is a necessary (but not sufficient) condition for eligibility. Every time the Constitution refers to a "Citizen of the United States" it includes natural born citizens. The grandfather clause is not an exception to this---while our first few presidents were eligible under it, they were also natural born citizens (the Declaration of Independence having made citizens of subjects, but not having effected their natural born status). This is clear from the discussions in the Constitutional Convention. St. George Tucker suggested that the grandfather clause be added to grant eligibility to people such as himself or Alexander Hamilton---no one ever thought that Washington, Jefferson, or Monroe (all of whom were French citizens, by the way) needed it to be eligible (indeed, it wasn't in the first draft).

Slartibartfast said...

Part xlii of one:

MichaelN, to the surprise of no one, chose to rinse and repeat. He keeps making statements like "I have already proven my point, i.e. allegiance was the paramount consideration on the part of the Framers" without providing any evidence at all that shows this to be the case.

In his point #1, he fails once again to acknowledge that the allegiance of a foreigner traveling in the country, even though temporary and local, is sufficient to make a child natural born.

Point #2 seems to intentionally muddy things---he can't just say that "natural born citizens" are a subset of "citizens" because he's trying to suck up to Mario and his argument that the two sets are somehow disjoint (even though "citizens" seems to include "natural born citizens" in every single instance in which it is used in the Constitution). I guess that's just what a lickspittle does...

With point #3 he begins a gallop where he weaves all these threads together with half-assed semantics---presumably to try to obscure has avoidance of the real obot position: Barack Obama Sr. was subject to the jurisdiction of the United States and the State of Hawai'i and thus had sufficient allegiance to produce a natural born son. Not to mention that it has never been doubted that the child of an American mother born on American soil was an American citizen (as opposed to the child of an American mother born overseas, which may become a citizen by statute).

To address another of his oft-repeated points, while native birth isn't sufficient to make someone natural born, it is perfectly clear what is needed in addition: subjection to the jurisdiction. Both Calvin's father and Barack Obama Sr. were subject to the jurisdiction in which their children were born and thus both had sufficient allegiance to make their sons natural born. The fact that he doesn't even acknowledge this possibility is just another example of how dishonest his argument is and how little credibility he has.

But most of all he completely ignores my pointing out that the link which he cherry picked a quote from completely trashes his entire argument.

MichaelN,

You referenced http://www.constitution.org/abus/pres_elig.htm favorably* in one of your comments. Does this mean that you agree with their clear argument that President Obama, if born in the US, is a natural born citizen? Or did you find the site by googling birther key words and ignore everything but the quote you cherry picked (which was itself taken out of context to mislead)? Or maybe you read the whole page and were just dishonest enough to just lift something which looked like it agreed with you from a lengthy blog that tears your argument to pieces. Either you just implicitly admitted that your argument is completely without merit or you showed that your credibility is extremely suspect. Or do you think it's both?

* Which, according to Mario, seems to mean that you completely embrace everything they said.

Slartibartfast said...

Part a5g66 of several,

Mr. Nash completely ignored me in favor of continuing to produce his frothing lunatic drivel. Possibly the only point on which birthers and obots agree is that the theories of Mr. Nash are idiotic.

Adrien,

Nothing you say is of the slightest significance (or even coherence). I'll waste no more time on it than to point out that you misspelled "Saruman" and "Gandalf", that Gandalf, being essentially a demigod, was pretty much less human than anyone else and that Rome adopted the principle of jus soli for the entire empire in 212 AD (from the link that MichaelN believes to be a credible source).

Slartibartfast said...

Part II of a lot:

As for ajtelles, he makes a straw man out of my point on the Confederate Constitution and then congratulates himself for beating the straw man. The point was that the birther interpretation of "natural born" is inconsistent with the wording in the Confederate Constitution as applied to those born in the US before 1860. To illustrate this point, assume that the Confederacy had lasted and consider the following scenario:

A Kenyan and his wife are traveling in New York and have a son (born in a hospital with a souvenir birth certificate with footprints and everything) in 1859. The man sends his wife and son back to Kenya and goes to Atlanta where he marries a southern belle and has another son in 1861. The man then returns to Kenya and raises his first son all Kenyan and such while his second wife raises his second son as befits a member of the confederacy. In 1880, #1 son moves to the Confederacy and naturalizes. As someone born in the US before 1860 who became a Confederate citizen, he would become eligible for the presidency for the 1896 election by the Confederate version of the grandfather clause.

Now #2 son, who clearly has more allegiance to the Confederacy than #1 son, was born on the soil to a citizen parent and an alien parent---according to the obots, this is sufficient to make him a natural born citizen and he could run against his half-brother in '96. On the other hand, the birthers believe, ...well, a whole bunch of different things. Some (like Phil Berg or the website that MichaelN linked to) would agree that he is unquestionably a natural born citizen (his footie BC being beyond reproach). Some, like Mr. Nash, argue that #2 son is a Kenyan come hell or high water regardless of what any stinking laws or Constitutions say. Then there is Mario and the rest of the Vattelites who agree that he isn't natural born albeit by reasoning based on a mistranslation of a passage by Vattel which said that, in countries like France, the indigenous people were those born in the country who were blood relatives of citizens (he elsewhere said that, in countries like England, pretty much anyone born in the country was a citizen).

Slartibartfast said...

Part yada yada yada...

Art,

Since you clearly believe that #2 son would be ineligible, why do you think that the writers of the Confederate Constitution chose to protect themselves against #2 son but not #1 son? Do you think that inconsistencies like this make it more or less likely that your reasoning is correct? An interesting side note---if the races of the parents were the same as in the case of President Obama, then #1 son would be black and #2 son (the analogue of President Obama) would be considered white as back then a child was considered to be the same race as its mother.


I do find your attempts to portray Mario as wise and your and yourself as honest to be amusing, though. While I'm sure that Mario will become birtherstan's "Great White Hope" for appealing the decision of the Vermont Supreme Court to the SCOTUS (especially as birthers will be becoming disillusioned with Mike Zullo this month, one way or the other), it will lead to nothing more than some furious goal-post moving once the SCOTUS denies cert without comment.

As for you, Art, I'll concede that arguing against the eligibility of Rafael Cruz makes you consistent, but honest? Not even close---first off, you try to cast a false equivalence between Rafael and President Obama. President Obama is natural born by the fundamental principle of jus soli. Never before, in the history of our republic, has the eligibility of a native born person been questioned and it has been settled law for over 100 years and is supported by four centuries of jurisprudence. All of the arguments against President Obama's eligibility are utterly frivolous and most of the court cases have been incompetently litigated as well. Rafael, on the other hand, received his citizenship at birth via statute (well, his US citizenship anyway---no one can argue that he is not a natural born Canadian and he may be a natural born Cuban as well). While I don't believe that any US court, let alone the SCOTUS would rule against his eligibility any more than it would have against John McCain, there is a non-frivolous case to be made against him.

Sorry, but for you, as for any birther, the only path to honesty and integrity lies in admitting that, whatever you think of him, President Obama is the lawfully elected POTUS and the legitimate leader of the country. Unfortunately, I don't think you will have admitted this and begun to move on with your life when President Obama's eligibility truly does run out in 2017.

Slartibartfast said...

Unknown,

I certainly did speak of natural born citizens when the Constitution was ratified and one of them utterly destroys Mario's newest argument: George Washington.

Accepting Mario's suggestion that US citizenship, whenever it was bestowed, was granted retroactively, when was General Washington's citizenship backdated to and what sort of citizenship was it?
We know that he had to be "14 years a citizen" when he was inaugurated in 1789, which means that he must have been granted citizenship from at least 1775. Clearly, the only reasonable date prior to 1775 would be the date of his birth, so President Washington must have been considered a citizen of the United States from birth. As he was also unquestionably natural born (he was certainly a natural born Virginian every day of his life), he would have qualified as a natural born citizen in addition to his obviously being a citizen of the United States when the Constitution was ratified.

While, on the face of it, this is very bad for Mario's theories, it gets worse when you think about the implications. We know that the native born children of aliens were natural born subjects of the Colonies---Calvin's case tells us that even the temporary and local allegiance of foreigners traveling in the country is sufficient to make their child natural born. Therefore, we know that such a child would be a natural born citizen of the US had they been born in any of the 13 Colonies before July 4, 1776. The question then becomes when did this change and why---a question that Mario cannot possibly answer in a manner consistent with the facts, the law and his theories. We know that Virginia, at the very least, wrote jus soli into their citizenship law, so the change couldn't have come in Virginia before the Constitution was ratified and we know that the Constitution didn't explicitly define "natural born citizen", so it could not have changed the meaning. Furthermore, while other states didn't embrace jus soli implicitly like Virginia, neither did any of them revoke it either by statute or judicial ruling.

In other words, jus soli presumably held in all of the Colonies until the Constitution was ratified and wasn't changed by the Constitution (or afterwards). You did a great job exposing Mario once again misunderstanding the difference between a necessary condition and a sufficient condition regarding the grandfather clause, but I think that the argument that the grandfather clause wasn't needed to make the Founders eligible leads to a much stronger case that Mario's legal flights of fancy are completely wrong.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Finally, how could I not mention your other big snow job, Jack Maskell."

Ludicrous as is your "snow job" conspiracy theory, what's even more laughable, Mr. Apuzzo, is you crediting ownership to me. *My* other big snow job? That's the Congressional Research Service. You seem to have me confused with the Article I Congress.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"While you are not able to find any law upon which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers would have relied that supports your phantom definition that any born citizen is a 'natural born citizen,' you pass off Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell as the final authority on what is a 'natural born citizen.'"

The CRS is not the final authority. Their memos and reports are advice that Congress is free to take or ignore. That said, I expect Congress listens to their own research service and there is a strong argument that Congress is the final authority on presidential qualifications. Some courts have held that Congressional certification of a president's election is not subject to judicial review. See, for example, Kerchner v. Obama, 669 F. Supp. 2d 477 - 2009.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You and Maskell fail to demonstrate... You fail to show... you have failed to present a winning argument... You fail to realize..."

But when you ventured out of your blogsphere world of make-believe, the arguments that failed, every time, were yours.

Each and every court that reached the merits of the Donofrio/Apuzzo/Taitz theory -- that Obama is ineligible because his father was a foreigner -- rejected it. The first to do so was the Court of Appeals of Indiana in November of 2009 (Ankeny v. Daniels, 916 N.E.2d 678). The earlier CRS memo dates from April 2009, months before. If Maskell's work is the fail you claim, Mr. Apuzzo, how come his conclusions bore out so well? Not all have yet met their test in court, but as of now we're looking at a perfect record.

Mr. Apuzzo, you never understood the CRS memo and report. Maskell did not try to prove his own pet theory with Aristotelian syllogisms. He surveyed the legal landscape. His major agenda was, obviously, to keep his advice to Congress consistent with judicial opinion. You Obama deniers want to make a constitutional crisis out of not getting your way, but, in case you haven't noticed, that's not working out for you.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

I just amended my main article of this thread to include more discussion on Minor and Wong Kim Ark. While my treatment is not intended to be exhaustive, here is what the article says now:

7. Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875): The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained: “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens." Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause. The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment. We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment. Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption.

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68.

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not. Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court also sua sponte stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens" children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents. The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens." So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens." But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

alien parents. So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents. Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens." Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents. So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship. The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question. See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark.

***

11. United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898): Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment. It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."

***

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The Madison Administration is very clear on this given its ruling in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811, which interpreted and applied the Naturalization Act of 1802, which contained the same language as existed in the Acts of 1790 and 1795, i.e., children born to parents who naturalize and who shall be dwelling in the United States. Indeed, that decision clearly shows that birth in the United States alone was no longer sufficient to make one a 'citizen of the United States.'"

No, for that you would need a case where a native-born person (other than slaves, American Indians, and children of either ambassadors or invaders) was ruled *not* to have been a citizen. McClure unarguably qualified for citizenship under the Naturalization Act, and thus there was no need to reach the question of whether jus soli had already made him a citizen.

Until the Supreme Court decision in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) there was doubt among respectable authorities as to whether jus soli held in the United States. Wong settled those doubts from the 14'th Amendment forward. Wong and also opined that jus soli had been the rule in the U.S. from the time of the Constitution as originally established, as you must know, Mr. Apuzzo, because in your own case a judge read it to you right out of the Majority Opinion. There's video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JohAu0BR_w0 ~39 minutes in


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Rather, a child born in the United States to alien parents became a 'citizen of the United States' only upon the naturalization of his or her parents if done during the child’s minority and at the time the child shall be dwelling in the United States. If such naturalization did not occur within that time and circumstance, that child upon becoming an adult needed to naturalize on his or her own under a naturalization act of Congress in order to become a 'citizen of the United States.'"

So where are those cases? Where are the records of the native-born children of foreigners that naturalized on their own? Or failed to do so and had their citizenship denied?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
Rawle proclaims his definition of a 'natural born citizen' by saying, 'Therefore,' indicating that his definition follows from what he explained earlier in his paragraph.

No; Rawle does not proclaim, nor even state, the definition of "natural born citizen". He assumes his readers know it means citizen from the moment of birth:

"[...] and he who was subsequently born the citizen of a State, became at the moment of his birth a citizen of the United States. Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution, and entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining to that capacity." -- William Rawle, /A View of the Constitution of the United States of America/, 1825.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:
~from yesterday's exposition; "HOW OBAMA Jr. MAKES HITLER Jr. ELIGIBLE"
page 3 of 3: to all obots...

By their demented assertion, ALL native-born persons who aren’t ambassadors’ children are all natural born Americans regardless of whether or not their father and mother were aliens, Indians, hostiles, transients, nomads, Gypsies, Martians, or sons of foreign military commanders with whom we are at war.

By their pathological reasoning, EVERYBODY CAN BE PRESIDENT! (almost)
The Founding Fathers didn’t care!

They suffered enormously for Liberty, but were unwilling to protect it with even a simple little precaution that would have excluded less than one percent of the population.

Why not allow both the citizen-born and the alien-born?

Let’s just open the doors of the White House wide to every son of every foreigner as long as their father isn’t an ambassador.

Is your father the brother or first cousin of King George III? No problem! You qualify!
Just be a presumed American citizen by exiting your mother’s womb on American soil.
Can’t you grasp that that is a perfectly rational measure to determine who should be allowed to take the reins of America’s Armed Forces and all of her nuclear weapons? What could go wrong?

Would you be a panty-waist who wouldn’t put equal access for all U.S. born persons ahead of national security?

What right do you or the founding fathers have to worry about a slim possibility that disloyalty might threaten it?

[Alexander Hamilton’s writing in Federalist No. 68:
“Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption.
These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils.

How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union?” -

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:
Pt.2 ~from yesterday's exposition; "HOW OBAMA Jr. MAKES HITLER Jr. ELIGIBLE"
to all Donori-puzzians...

What’s this “No person” crap? What gave them the right to discriminate? Oh, I know! They meant no person who was a foreigner by birth on foreign soil. Yeah, that’s it!
No son of a President (who was also a son of a President) but who was born just across the Canadian border in a nearby hospital, can be assumed to not be a traitor and disloyal to a country that he wasn’t even born in. Yeah, I’ll salute that. Run it up the flag pole!
If you aren’t a citizen by soil, then you have little attachment to a land that’s not where your mother’s womb was when you exited it. Right?
All talk about being a citizen by blood is just hooey.

Borders trump blood any day.

You know full well that if you were not born on your parents’ property, then you are not their natural off-spring. You are just an adopted child thanks to the generous permission of the law.

Only if THE LAW says that you are their “natural” child can you be viewed as being that.

Born in a hospital? Tough luck. You are an alien to your family cause the hospital was not on your parents’ sovereign property.
It was foreign territory, so you are a foreigner. That’s life, chump. Get used to it. You’re adopted.

~finis

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You said to Unknown:

“Accepting Mario's suggestion that US citizenship, whenever it was bestowed, was granted retroactively, when was General Washington's citizenship backdated to and what sort of citizenship was it?

We know that he had to be "14 years a citizen" when he was inaugurated in 1789, which means that he must have been granted citizenship from at least 1775. Clearly, the only reasonable date prior to 1775 would be the date of his birth, so President Washington must have been considered a citizen of the United States from birth. As he was also unquestionably natural born (he was certainly a natural born Virginian every day of his life), he would have qualified as a natural born citizen in addition to his obviously being a citizen of the United States when the Constitution was ratified.”
My reply:

There are several things wrong with you argument. First, Unknown has not responded to your argument so she must accept it. I do not know what version of the Constitution you are both using, but my Constitution says that future President (those born after the adoption of the Constitution) have to be at a “natural born citizen,” not as you say “14 years a citizen.” To be a “natural born citizen,” it is necessary but not sufficient that one be a citizen from the moment of birth. So your argument is totally devoid of any merit and my position stands un-refuted. You better get Unknown to bail you out of this one with one of her lame arguments, like for example, what the courts that I selected have told me.

Second, the Founders were the creators of a new political and civil society. That is why they are called the Founders. Under long established principles of natural law and the law of nations, founders of new such societies are its first members and become “citizens” (in republics). They are not “natural born citizens,” for they were not born in the country to citizen parents. Only their children born to them in the new country and other children born in the future in that country to future citizens may be “natural born citizens.” So, George Washington and our other early Presidents were all “Citizens of the United States” and grandfathered to be eligible for the Office of President through Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. They could not be “natural born citizens,” for they were not born in the new country nor were they born to parents who were its citizens. They were not even citizens from the moment of their birth.

I know your game. Just make everyone a “natural born citizen,” including Senator Ted Cruz, so Obama can just slide right on by with everyone else.

Unknown said...

Wka, the child of a alien father born in the US, went from not even being a citizen the day he was born to being a natural born citizen according to these state cases over 140 years later. 6 SC justices said he was a citizen and 3 said he was not a citizen and yet somehow wka being ruled a citizen of the us by SC is exactly the same as being a NBC so obviously the ruling of the court is dicta just like the qoute in minor about the natives or natural born citizens is dicta. Certainly jus soli would apply to children of americans born outside of us and us govt would have no say even if the mother and child only spent 2 days in a foreign hospital.

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

Slartibartfast said....

"MichaelN, to the surprise of no one, chose to rinse and repeat. He keeps making statements like "I have already proven my point, i.e. allegiance was the paramount consideration on the part of the Framers" without providing any evidence at all that shows this to be the case.

In his point #1, he fails once again to acknowledge that the allegiance of a foreigner traveling in the country, even though temporary and local, is sufficient to make a child natural born."

Kev, besides you running and hiding in hope it goes away, you avoid and fail to answer my prior questions regarding ....

#1 what was the "common law" referred to by the SCOTUS in the MvH case where the SCOTUS gave merit to doubts whether native-birth alone even made a citizen at all, let alone a natural born citizen.???

#2 why would parental allegiance be put aside when considering parental allegiance of those native-born to US citizens, when those native-born to aliens IS considered, as also is parental allegiance of those born off-shore to US citizen parents.???

The evidence I have provided to prove my points, i.e. is the MvH case itself, which you are already familiar with and which I have quoted numerous times.

The evidence is also found in Article I & II of the USC with the differentiation made between a COTUS and a NBCOTUS; the distinction was based on levels of eligibility of those who would ALREADY be native-born "citizens of the United States" amongst whom the native-born COTUS with the higher allegiance was, because of the higher allegiance, also a "natural born Citizen" of the United States" and eligible for the office of POTUS.

Some native-born 14th Amendment "citizens of the United States" would be eligible for POTUS and some not, all because of degrees of parental allegiance.

Further evidence of parental allegiance is also found in the naturalization acts.

And of course it was with precedent, given the Framers and Founders were observant of and conversant with the English law, wherein it was not native-birth alone that made the subject born, but the allegiance of the father, who, in the case of a friendly alien father, was considered a subject, and thus his native-born children would be natural born subjects because they would be born under the ligeance of a subject.

Unlike the English, where everyone visiting England was a subject except enemies and diplomats, in the US enemy invaders and diplomats were and are not the only exemptions from automatically being US citizens, in US, NO ALIENS were accepted without first naturalizing.

Earth to Kev ...... unlike the English the US does not accept friendly aliens as citizens/subjects, they must become naturalized to be US citizens, and given that, according to the SCOTUS in the WKA case cited to this.....

MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 2
The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law,

and given that the US Constitution, according to the SCOTUS in the WKA case said.....

In this as in other respects, it must be interpreted in the light of the common law, the principles and history of which were familiarly known to the framers of the Constitution. Minor v. Happersett, 21 Wall. 162; Ex parte Wilson, 114 U.S. 417, 422; Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616, 624, 625; Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 465. The language of the Constitution, as has been well said, could not be understood without reference to the common law. Kent Com. 336; Bradley, J., in Moore v. United States, 91 U.S. 270, 274.

and given that the SCOTUS in the WKA case cited to the English common law case Calvin's case, where it was said.....

And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born: for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King.

Given also Kev, earth to Kev, are you still with us?

....that the English embraced and accepted all aliens as subjects save diplomats and enemies, but the US did and does not accept any aliens as US citizens unless they naturalize.....

then we have this, in the US situation, in accordance with the SCOTUS recognition that subject and citizen are precisely analogous.....

"And it is to be observed, that it is not native-birth, but allegiance that makes the born US citizen."

"that issue is no citizen of the US, though he be born upon US soil, and under US meridian, for that he was not born under the allegiance of a US citizen"

Epic fail for you again Kev...... keep squirming......what a joke you are.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

As I have told you many times before, your natural law positions are ludicrous. You think that you have a license to do whatever you please by simply wrapping yourself around the word “natural law.” It is people like you that give natural law a bad rap.

What goes on in a state of nature, someone’s family, or a nomadic tribe is not the same as what goes on in a civilized nation. We also do not live in a one-world order. Rather, the world is populated with nations each of which has duties to each other under their treaties and the law of nations, which today is called international law. These nations also have physical limits to their nations imposed by what we call boundaries. Those boundaries determine during time of peace what the territorial jurisdiction or power is of each nation. Subject to its constitution, each nation has the sovereign right to determine for various reasons through its positive and municipal laws whether persons born inside or outside its territorial boundaries shall be its members and what kind of members they shall be. In republics like the United States, these members are called “citizens.” In monarchies, they are usually called “subjects.”

The United States adopted the law of nations rule, which became the American common law rule, that defines a “natural born citizen” as a child born in a country to “citizen” parents. This common law rule defined both citizens and natural born citizens. Under this common law rule, all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners.” So, if a person is a natural born citizen, meaning he or she was born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the person’s birth, that person does not need any law to be a citizen or a natural born citizen. But things are different for persons who are not born as natural born citizens. For those born in the United States to one or two alien parents and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” they are “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment and do not need any act of Congress (although Congress has passed 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) confirming that those persons as “citizens of the United States” at birth). For those born out of the United States, only if Congress passes a naturalization statute or treaty allowing those children to be “citizens of the United States” can they be citizens. With such statutes and treaties, Congress can convert through its naturalization powers the alien born into citizens at birth (by statutes) or allow them to naturalize after birth (through statutes or treaties). Without such statutes or treaties, such children remain alien born.

You will remember that the First Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1790 said children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens” (not meaning that they were in fact natural born citizens). Then in the Naturalization Act of 1795, the Third Congress changed it to “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Also, under the Naturalization Act of 1802, Congress treated children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who acquired that status after 1802, like children born out of the United States to alien parents, as alien born. Congress decided to allow children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, no matter when they acquired that status, to be citizens of the United States again with the passage of the Naturalization Act of 1855. This all shows how Congress can decide how to treat children who are born out of the United States, not only to alien parents, but also to U.S. citizen parents. The gamut has been from considering them as natural born citizens, to citizens of the United States, to aliens, and back to citizens of the United States, where it has remained to this day.

So, all your talk about parents’ sovereign property is plain and simple nonsense which fits nowhere as a legal concept in the grand scheme of all things citizen.

Anonymous said...

a.nash writes:

Mario, -a most excellent re-eluciation of the facts of citizenship in Minor and WKA, making the issue quite clear, but unfortunately, ending with a tiny but highly significant error.

The Minor court in no way "provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."
All it did was to note that a certain type of citizen was undoubtedly a citizen, undoubtedly a native, and born as a natural citizen.
It applied a label to such citizens, but it did NOT define the label itself.

Rather, it defined the type, -the class, the group by using a label applicable to them. THAT is not a definition of anything.
It was merely a labeling, a "describing" using common language terms which incorporated three words into a single term. "natural born citizen" (or synonymously "born natural citizen") Those words are no more a term of art than is the word "native".

There were four States that labeled themselves as "the Commonwealth of...", and I suspect that since two of them were the jus soli States of Virginia and Pennsylanvia, that the other two were also jus soli States.

The lawyers and "authorities" in such States would have been indoctrinated with the soil-based human-ownership doctrine of royal dictators, and erroneously attached the word "natural" to all native-born souls in violation of the meaning of natural membership.

Such a view would certainly have been a source of "doubts" not only about who is a citizen at the national level, but also who is a citizen naturally.

The court in Wong settled the doubt about the alien-born being citizens but did so by violating the established policy and legislative precedent of the conscription acts of the Civil War which exempted all aliens and their children from being drafted since they were subject to a foreign power.

The high court threw the national definition of "subjection" in the toilet and flushed it.
It down-graded it from the full sovereign authority of the federal government over all citizens to merely a civil sort of jusidiction which was always a given since all are required to obey the law.

It went further and equated being "within the jurisdiction" to being "subject to the jurisdiction" thereby rendering the amendment's language redundant, as if being born within the jurisdiction was equivalent to being under and subject to the sovereign national authority in every manner, INCLUDING the duty of all CITIZENS to defend the nation by Bearing Arms, -or an equivalent.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown wrote: "No, for that you would need a case where a native-born person (other than slaves, American Indians, and children of either ambassadors or invaders) was ruled *not* to have been a citizen."

No, both you and Mario are wrong when you silently agree that no other persons were party to the group you listed. That view is absurd and contrary to all logic.

You cannot, nor can anyone else, possibly defend it. It is purely asinine since there were others who by the very same criterion, were members of that group.

Who were they? Anyone and everyone who was subject first and foremost to a foreign power, who was subject solely (from a national perspective) to a foreign power and not to the national authority that the government had a right to exercise over all citizens.

Are your eyes so blind, your mind so numb, your thinking so stunted that you are incapable of grasping that foreign guests could NOT BE CONSCRIPTED? THEY WERE NOT SUBJECT! They were under subjection to their home country, nation, government, -not to a land they were merely visiting.

If you cross the border into Canada or Mexico, do those nations thereby have a right to conscript you into their military service? No?
Why the heck not? Aren't you fully subject to their sovereign authority? Or are you under the law of nations and how nations treat each other's citizens? For God's sake, think about it for once in your life.

"Until the Supreme Court decision in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) there was doubt among respectable authorities as to whether jus soli held in the United States."

That is a meaningless statement because it is totally ambiguous. You have no, and provided no definition of what the hell "held" even means.

It means this or it means that or it means whatever you want it to mean, which flies in the face of reality.

That type of linguistic ambiguity creates the conundrum that's at the heart of this dispute.
Understand this; nothing changed regarding the natural inherited national membership of those born of Americans.
They were about 96% of the population in 1898, and their natural citizenship was unaddressed.
The ONLY thing addressed was the national membership of the alien-born delivered in the U.S., who constituted maybe 2% more or less.
The high court opined in effect that jus soli, which the 14th Amendment was not written to establish for them, did in fact cover them.
Them only, NO ONE ELSE! The natural transmission of an American father's nationality was unaddressed, and unaffected.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash continues:

Unknown also wrote:

"So where are those cases? Where are the records of the native-born children of foreigners that naturalized on their own? Or failed to do so and had their citizenship denied?"

Because you don't know where in the archives of America those State records exist, -that means that they are non-existent? What stupidity.

"...and had their citizenship denied?" Denied by whom and for what reason? Give us a hypothetical, like the one in which the entire government ignored the fact that Obama had no proof of where he was born nor any justification for even being viewed as an American ctitzen by America law?
I say "LAW", not consenus, institutionalized erroneous Attorney General policy dating back to John Griggs in 1898.
Regarding such native-born persons and the perception of their nationality; NO ONE CARED! Who the heck was there to sue a person born and raised in America, even if by actual original, natural, fundamental national American policy, they were not technically citizens because they were not allowed to hold dual-citizenship and they were born with that of their foreign father?

As for the Rawle quote; it would be quite significant if it were quite substantiatable, but it is not, as I explain in a huge but not yet online exposition titled: Understanding the Nature of Native-birth.
After being autopsied, it is seen to be quite understandable that he would erroneously think that way, but without actual justification.

Remember, he was NOT from the founders' generation, nor one of them. He was raised under the still established British system of law and tradition and thinking, and did not have his thinking transformed by the prospect of a noose awaiting him. His priority was understanding Law & legal tradition, -not understanding Liberty and the principles of the Revolution.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stanger a/k/a Adrien Nash/a/k/a h2ooflife,

Your position that there is no such pre-established clause as “natural born citizen” is absurd. Read Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. You will see the clause there whether you use glasses or not.

Also, for the benefit of the reader, why do you not provide for us what your definition of a "natural born citizen" is. I know that you will not do it and give me some song and dance about natural law which will only confirm that you have no credibility here.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

"Since there was no 'natural born Citizen' who had resided on U.S. soil for at least 14 years by the age of 35... since July 4, 1776 "

I once assumed that to be true, until one day, after having written hundreds of thousands of words on citizenship over a few year, I had a new insight from the founders' perspective in 1787.

I realized they were writing about themselves when they required that one be a natural born citizen. I had previously always had an unwritten presence in my thinking, and that was that the words "...of the United States" were used, when in fact they were absent.

That changes the calculation dramatically. It reveals that what their words actually meant was what would not have been conveyed to our minds because of the proclivity to capitalize the word "united" when a proper reading requires that it NOT be capitalized.
Their reference was not to a citizen of the nation but to a citizen of the united, independent STATES of the union.

The capitalization, on paper or in one's mind, creates a false impression due to ambiguity.

Unless one knows otherwise, you should make the default assumption that when the word "united" is attached to the word "state" it refers to "the united STATES and not "THE UNITED STATES".

So..., the founders all fit the label of being natural born citizens of... the united independent STATES of America and were thus eligible to be President.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

mario wrote:

Your position that there is no such pre-established clause as “natural born citizen” is absurd. Read Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. You will see the clause there..."

Your frame of reference is undefined. "pre" what? "Pre" the Constitution?
You can't pointed to the Constitution for proof that the words pre-dated it. You have to point to usages that pre-dated the Constitution, which no one does and for good reason.
They will find essentially nothing which can be construed as being "established".

You hold up high the hallowed doctrine that those three words constitute a "pre-established term" of legal artifice, yet no evidence of such a thing has ever existed.

That's true because there was never a single reason for it to exist, nor any logical basis to establish such a concept that marries natural national belonging to a doctrine of dictators who declared they owned every soul born within their property.

How could any son of Liberty justify or legitimize in any way such an anti-American, anti-Liberty dogma?
We are the sons of Nature's God, and the children of citizens. Our nationality springs 100% from them, and nothing else.

Neither they nor we require the permission of a land-based dogma in order for us to be recognized as the members (citizens) of our own society and nation. We are natural members.

Please explain how that is completely nonsense from a perspective of Natural Law (which is the sole determinant of nationality, -aside from legal citizenship)

Alien-born, aka, Legal-born citizen; never nbc
Citizen-born citizen; always nbc

notice that "native-born citizen" isn't mentioned since it alone is not a determinant of anything.

Anonymous said...

a.nash writes:
Mario wrote: Subject to its constitution, each nation has the sovereign right to determine...whether persons born inside or outside its territorial boundaries shall be its members and what kind of members they shall be."

Everything is subject to a nation's constitution. No one disputes that, and I never have. But you err in thinking that any people of any country would have agreed to a Constitution with language giving agents of the government that is meant to serve them, authority to decree that they, the natural members of the country and the creators of the constitution, were anything other than the natural members of the new nation.

No constitution on Earth gives such authority to any body. The natural members of a society, a country, and a nation formed by the members of the country are all natural members of the new nation which they create.

That is a natural fact that no government or constitution possess authority to alter.
It would be in total violation of the law of nature regarding membership. That law applies at ALL levels. Nations are not exempt from the fundamental laws of life.

Their authority begins and ends solely with those who are outsiders or half-outsiders, -regardless of birth location. The law of nature has no recognition of the location of the fleetingly brief event of womb-exit.

If you wish to argue with someone, argue with nature. I didn't make her rules.

"The United States adopted the law of nations rule" Sorry to have to correct you, but there was no "The United States", nor any "adoption" nor any "law of nations" as you define it.

There was only, in everyone's thinking, the united, independent sovereign STATES of America.

Thirteen nations with each deciding for itself what its nationality rules would be, until the rules for aliens were made uniform nation-wide by the first Congress.

THAT is not an adoption of anything related to the native, natural members of the new nation.

Their national nationality was the extension of their State nationality.

Your clever claim that the nation adopted something is very acceptable to the mind, but also totally wrong. It had NO SUCH AUTHORITY! It was given NO SUCH AUTHORITY! It exercised no such authority either.
Nationality was first and foremost a STATE matter, -as was immigration. Haven't you learned that by now?

Robert said...

According to our British Nationality Act young Obama was born a British/Kenyan subject.

So, when Barrack Hussein Obama, Sr. repatriated to Kenya, had he wished to take his son with him, what would our laws have allowed? And, what nation's passport would he have traveled under? Surely his father had a British/Kenyan passport under which he could take his family wherever they wished and were legally allowed to go.

Not having computer images or photoshop at the time, what birth document was used?

Of course the answers to these simple questions will show clearly that Jr. is not a natural born citizen of the USA, and probably not even a citizen. He is a British/Kenyan subject just like his Dad.

Children follow the nationality of their fathers. A natural born citizen is one born in the country to two citizen parents. Mr. Obama is not a natural born citizen of the USA. Instead, he is a subject of Kenya.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "Congress can convert through its naturalization powers the alien [foreign] born into citizens at birth (by statutes) or allow them to naturalize after birth. Without such statutes or treaties, such children remain alien born."

"the Nat Act of 1790 said children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens” (not meaning that they were in fact natural born citizens)."

You can't not know that the "considered as" language was uniformly used for the RECOGNITION of existing citizenship and written not as an exercise of non-existent authority, but as an official elucidation of a nationality FACT.

Congress had no authority to naturalize anyone. All naturalization authority was invested in judges and magistrates of the States, along with federal judges when federal courts were established in local jurisdictions.

Those "considered as" citizens or natural born citizens were exactly what Congress was asserting, and were to be recognized as such by all agents of every State and federal agency, -or lawyer who presumes to declare that such persons were not exactly what Congress described.

Congress merely stated the facts. They did NOT make the facts.

Nationality was conveyed by blood or by the naturalization vow, -not by Congress.
It had no say in the matter under the 9th and 10th Amendments once it had established a uniform rule.
I'd love to see you attempt to quote actual U.S. law to refute those facts. I know that's impossible.

Anonymous said...

a.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "This all shows how Congress can decide how to treat children who are born out of the United States, not only to alien parents, but also to U.S. citizen parents."

IT SHOWS NOTHING! -other than mistaken presumption about what the dynamics at work actually were.

Congress's view of their authority is irrelevant to what their authority actually is. Who doesn't know that?

It exercises authority it doesn't have all of the time,... most of the time in fact.

Congress thought it had authority over the citizenship of naturalized citizens, just as you think.
They learned they were totally wrong via Supreme Court cases that smashed their authority to dust because all citizens ARE EQUAL!

Congress CANNOT discriminate (by its non-existent "authority" against naturalized citizens.

Have you learned nothing from Afroyim v Rusk and cases following it?
Citizenship, once obtained, is out of the purview of Congress.

The high court trashed 80 years of official, accepted, "legal" and proper treaties because they violated a fundamental principle of the United States, and that is the doctrine of equality, including citizenship equality.

ALL CITIZENS ARE CONSIDERED AS NATURAL CITIZENS. EQUALS IN RIGHTS AND EQUALS IN NATURE.

Other nations do not embrace that equality, but the United States does because we were born in revolution and many of our rebel fighters were not native-born Americans.
But they were accepted as brothers-in-arms, brothers-in-liberty, and brothers-in-national standing.

The Marquis de la Fayette was a brother of the revolution and equal in every way to his American companions.
After FREEDOM, the revolution was about ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.

Please explain how that is "ludicrous".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

"Since there was no 'natural born Citizen' who had resided on U.S. soil for at least 14 years by the age of 35... since July 4, 1776."

This is an erroneous statement. The first Presidents were not expected to nor could they be “natural born citizens.” Also, you are wrong that they were “natural born citizens.” I already wrote on this in my previous comment to Slartibartast just published, responding to his erroneous statement that President George Washington had to be “14 years a citizen.”

Also, the 14 years a resident “within" the United States would have taken it out to July 4, 1790. President George Washington was sworn in as our nations’ first President following the ratification of the Constitution, on April 30, 1789, at Federal Hall, in New York City, our nation’s first capital. Using July 4, 1776 as the start date for residency, his being a resident “of” the United States would have been short by 430 days, or 1 year, 2 months, and 4 days. Your theory that “the United States” meant in the states as united entities makes no sense, for it changes nothing. There were no states until July 4, 1776. Also, the Framers in the Constitution knew how to distinguish between the United States (the nation) and the individual states. See Article III, Section 2; Article IV, Section 2; Article V; Article VI; and Article VIII. What has caused you make this error is taking something that I said about when the nation, “the United States” began and trying to pawn it off as your own where it does not belong. See my comment below.

One explanation is that the Framers did not foresee the first president being sworn in so quickly and for the sake of the nation, everyone turned a blind eye to Washington’s residency deficiency since he had lived in Virginia for so many years earlier and counted that time also toward residency “within” the United States. Another explanation is that “within” the United State was meant to include time one lived in the colonies since they became the physical land which became the United States as a nation.

Also, note that 21 years plus 14 years equals 35 years, the minimum age to be President. John Locke, Emer de Vattel, and the Founders, among others, maintained that a child did not reach the age of reason, otherwise called the state of freedom, until he or she was 21 years old. After that time, real residency would have started during which real life accomplishments would have been achieved. So, counting those years takes one to the minimum 35 years of age to be President.

Finally, you come on here and tell us about how you had an epiphany about the difference between “the united States” and “the United States.” On March 7, 2014, at 7:57 PM, I posted this comment:

“The Declaration Independence, signed on July 4, 1776 by the representatives of the “united States of America,” absolved the English colonies “from all Allegiance to the British Crown” and severed “all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain.” Hence, the Declaration broke the political allegiance and tie that existed between the English colonies and Great Britain. Upon that political separation, the colonies became “Free and Independent States,” and joined the nations of the world as individual republics guided by the law of nations. Therefore, the separation did not create the nation called the “United States of America.” In order for that separation to have any real and lasting effect, the individual states of America, united together, went to war Great Britain. [They] had to win that war with Great Britain which they did.”

***

Right, Mr. Nash, you though it all up yourself, like all the rest of what you write here and on your blog.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

"Since there was no 'natural born Citizen' who had resided on U.S. soil for at least 14 years by the age of 35... since July 4, 1776."

This is an erroneous statement. The first Presidents were not expected to nor could they be “natural born citizens.” Also, you are wrong that they were “natural born citizens.” I already wrote on this in my previous comment to Slartibartast just published, responding to his erroneous statement that President George Washington had to be “14 years a citizen.”

Also, the 14 years a resident “within" the United States would have taken it out to July 4, 1790. President George Washington was sworn in as our nations’ first President following the ratification of the Constitution, on April 30, 1789, at Federal Hall, in New York City, our nation’s first capital. Using July 4, 1776 as the start date for residency, his being a resident “of” the United States would have been short by 430 days, or 1 year, 2 months, and 4 days. Your theory that “the United States” meant in the states as united entities makes no sense, for it changes nothing. There were no states until July 4, 1776. Also, the Framers in the Constitution knew how to distinguish between the United States (the nation) and the individual states. See Article III, Section 2; Article IV, Section 2; Article V; Article VI; and Article VIII. What has caused you make this error is taking something that I said about when the nation, “the United States” began and trying to pawn it off as your own where it does not belong. See my comment below.

One explanation is that the Framers did not foresee the first president being sworn in so quickly and for the sake of the nation, everyone turned a blind eye to Washington’s residency deficiency since he had lived in Virginia for so many years earlier and counted that time also toward residency “within” the United States. Another explanation is that “within” the United State was meant to include time one lived in the colonies since they became the physical land which became the United States as a nation.

Also, note that 21 years plus 14 years equals 35 years, the minimum age to be President. John Locke, Emer de Vattel, and the Founders, among others, maintained that a child did not reach the age of reason, otherwise called the state of freedom, until he or she was 21 years old. After that time, real residency would have started during which real life accomplishments would have been achieved. So, counting those years takes one to the minimum 35 years of age to be President.

Finally, you come on here and tell us about how you had an epiphany about the difference between “the united States” and “the United States.” On March 7, 2014, at 7:57 PM, I posted this comment:

“The Declaration Independence, signed on July 4, 1776 by the representatives of the “united States of America,” absolved the English colonies “from all Allegiance to the British Crown” and severed “all political Connection between them and the State of Great-Britain.” Hence, the Declaration broke the political allegiance and tie that existed between the English colonies and Great Britain. Upon that political separation, the colonies became “Free and Independent States,” and joined the nations of the world as individual republics guided by the law of nations. Therefore, the separation did not create the nation called the “United States of America.” In order for that separation to have any real and lasting effect, the individual states of America, united together, went to war [with] Great Britain. [They] had to win that war with Great Britain which they did.”

***

Right, Mr. Nash, you though it all up yourself, like all the rest of what you write here and on your blog.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

You can yell and scream your natural membership stuff on here all you want. It does not change one iota.

Anonymous said...

a.r. nash writes:

Do you have a natural right to be an American? According to the Apuzzian doctrine you do not.

By it, all national membership is legal membership. Natural membership does not exist. Natural citizens do not exist. All citizens are defined and determined by the dictate of government, not by natural inheritance.

In other words, ALL citizens are made, and can be unmade, by law. No citizen is safe from its authority.
Why are the children of Americans unsafe?
Because the only way they could be safe is if Congress and the Constitution do NOT have TOTAL authority over one's nationality, with NOTHING being inherited as a natural birthright.

The Holy Grail will be found before anyone finds such authority anywhere in American law.
By Mario gives it to the government anyway. Why? To support his embraced dogma that native-birth is an element of natural national membership.

By that dogma, without native-birth, no one has a right to be an American, -even by the law of natural membership (which must not exist).
In order to support the structure of his fantasy theory of citizenship, it must not be 100% natural, but must be mixed with the stinking clay of British brute-force nationality designation on behalf of the Crown (native-birth).
He draws only half-way away from that doctrine, but unlike our founders, fails to draw 100% away, instead combining it with the law of nature that they turned to.

There are two extremes; on one side is the pure native-birth (under dominion) of the British and the other is the pure natural inheritance of the founders who embraced the law of nature, and then there is Mario in the middle embracing both, together.


Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues:

To legitimize his nativist, nationalist doctrine supposedly derived from "definitions" that in fact do not exist, Mario has to contort facts that otherwise can't be explained.

He has to argue and declare that the first Congress was composed of framers and founders who were dunces and failed to recognize the correctness of his dogma, rather than question his own assumptions.

He has to declare that Congress exercised authority it did not possess nor employ in order to brush-away the clear unmistakeable statement of that Congress the ALL American children are natural born citizens and perfectly eligible to be President.

He has to declare that any son of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, George Washington, James Madison, etc who failed to exit his mom's womb on holy American soil would have been an ALIEN! Not an American via his father.

The right of descent, mentioned repeated by the founders, CAN NOT EXIST! because by natural inheritance, one is automatically the same as their father, race-wise, species-wise, and nationality-wise.

Mario dismisses all natural inheritance and must do so because it could not be limited by national boundaries.
If you are abroad when your surviving parent dies, does that mean you have no natural right of inheritance?
By Mario's reasoning, natural rights don't exist, -the right of citizenship (natural national inclusion) is only determined by government rules, not NATURAL BONDS!

I can't comprehend having to defend that position, and yet that is what he is forced to do.
And why? For no good reason other avoiding having to back-track his authoritative assertions.

The odds of him "seeing the Light" are slim to none, it's time I gave up hope.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

but one more stab...

I'm waiting for the day when Mario will see and acknowledge the light, not mine, -not natural light, but the light of Vattel who clearly explained what a natural citizen is.

If you have something explained with two separate statements, and one is ambiguous, while the other is not, you must go by the non-ambiguous statement.

Vattel made both an ambiguous statement and unambiguous ones. The ambiguous one is the one that Mario always quotes, while he avoids the ones that are unambiguous because they neutralize his interpretation of the ambiguous statement which includes the unnatural element of place of birth along with the natural element of blood conveyance, or natural inheritance.

the unambiguous statements are:

"The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children, and they become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Pure patrilineal descent.

"each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children THE RIGHT of becoming members of it."
-that's blood-right, birth-right MEMBERSHIP (the term I use a lot also as evidence of the influence of the law of natural belonging)

"in order to be of the country it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen," -necessary and also sufficient. Pure patrilineal descent, -native-birth irrelevant.

"for it he is born there of a foreigner, it will only be his place of birth and not his country."

"not his country" because his country is naturally that of his father, even if he IS NOT BORN THERE.
That is Natural Law. That is not Nash's Law. I'm not Nature.

Natural belonging is not via human rules or laws or opinions. All such stuff is irrelevant.
Just ask your daughter's eyes next time you look into them.

Or do you have one? I don't, but if I did, I know what I'd see.

Unknown said...

I am sure all parents would consider it natural for their offspring to inherit citizenship from them but it does not make them a nbc if born outside their country. GW considered such children citizens in 1795, not natural born citizens. Until a2 is amended it only matters what the Framers definition is. Of course it does not matter to congress or any judge so far and as John the Baptist said "i am a voice crying in the wilderness" because the nbc clause will never be enforced

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

Slartibartfast said...
"Point #2 seems to intentionally muddy things---he can't just say that "natural born citizens" are a subset of "citizens" because he's trying to suck up to Mario and his argument that the two sets are somehow disjoint (even though "citizens" seems to include "natural born citizens" in every single instance in which it is used in the Constitution). I guess that's just what a lickspittle does..."
--------------------------
Reply:

Kev, there is a means by which people become native-born "citizens of the United States", i.e. 14th Amendment tells us, native-birth AND parental allegiance.

But because it is the native-born who are being considered, then all that is required of a native-born person to be a COTUS is to be born to parents with some degree of allegiance.

Both alien (non-citizen) parents and US citizen parents have different degrees of allegiance and a weak allegiance is all that is required to make a native-born person the basic COTUS, so the higher allegiance of the US citizen parents is not needed to make a native-born COTUS.

Now, given that the Founders and Framers were observant of the English law, we can conclude that the Founders and Framers recognized that there were different types and degrees of allegiance on the part of parents of those who would be subjects/citizens.

The evidence is found in the English law, Articles I & II of the USC (i.e. the differentiation between a COTUS and a NBC OTUS) and the US naturalization acts (i.e. children born off-shore to US citizens)

It is an established and proven fact that parental allegiance was and is the deciding factor when determining English subject status and US citizen status.

Because of the different types and degrees of allegiance, the English provided different types or degrees of rights, benefits and privileges.

Articles I & II of the USC also recognized and required different types and degrees of allegiance and provided for eligibility for different rights to offices in US government.

One example of the English principle can be seen where if a subject's ligeance was local (e.g. an alien friend), then their obligation to serve the king as a subject was different to that of a natural born subject.

Go to the part “Where natural legiance is due.” and see for yourself, it can be found here...
http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=911&chapter=106337&layout=html&Itemid=27

There are numerous other examples in the English law where the different types and degrees of allegiance were measured to give different rights and privileges, e.g. inheritance, etc

Sir Edward Coke per Calvin's case....
"There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances:
the first is, ligeantia naturalis, absoluta, pura, et indefinita,42 and this originally is due by nature and birthright, and is called alta ligeantia42a and he that oweth this is called subditus natus.43
-[42. ][Ed.: natural, absolute, pure and unlimited allegiance.]
[42a. ][Ed.: high allegiance.]
[43. ][Ed.: subject born.]-
The second is called ligeantia acquisita,44 not by nature but by acquisition or denization, being called a denizen, or rather donaizon, because he is subditus datus.45
-[44. ][Ed.: acquired allegiance.]
[45. ][Ed.: a subject made by gift.]-
The third is ligeantia localis46 wrought by the law, and that is when an alien that is in amity cometh into England, because as long as he is within England, he is within the King’s protection; therefore so long as he is there, he oweth unto the King a local obedience or ligeance, for that the one (as it hath been said) draweth the other.
-[46. ][Ed.: local allegiance.]-
The fourth is a legal obedience, or ligeance which is called legal, because the municipal laws of this realm have prescribed the order and form of it; and this to be done upon oath at the Torn or Leet."


MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 2

As you can see, different types of allegiance, and if you have a good look into the English law you will find that the different types of allegiance warranted different rights and privileges.
The criteria to be met to be an English NBS, if born to an alien, was to be born in the realm to a subject with local allegiance.
This was not a criteria to be met to qualify for a high office in England, it was merely entry –level into the general body of subjects/citizens.
Yet in the US, one who is native-born to a non-citizen alien with local allegiance, at best is much the same, i.e. merely an entry-level COTUS.
We can see from the majority decision in the Wong Kim Ark case that the term “natural born” was used in reference to parents of a native-born, i.e. Horace Gray’s citing to Binney’s recognition of “the natural born child of a citizen” and the absence of the use of the term “natural born” in the case of a native-born to an alien.
We can also see from the Minor V Happersett case, also cited by the WKA court, where the SCOTUS gave merit to doubts whether a native-born to alien parents was even a citizen at all, let alone a natural born; the SCOTUS holding that the doubts had yet to be solved.
Now with all of this, we can see it is proven fact that in US law, parental allegiance was a consideration in determining whether a native-born was a COTUS, it was also a consideration in determining whether a child born off-shore to US citizen parents was a COTUS, so why do you suppose it should not be a consideration when determining which native-born COTUS should be a “natural born Citizen” OTUS?
And, what “common law” was it which the SCOTUS majority in the Minor v Happersett referred to when the court held that a natural born citizen was one who was native born and to US citizen parents, and (in the very same paragraph) gave merit to doubts whether a native-born to aliens was even a citizen at all?

Kev, you are basically a very dishonest person, you run away and hide like a cockroach at the thought of these proven facts and avoid like the plague answering these questions put to you, then you come back when you think that the heat is off you and sling-off at those who pose these valid questions, desperately mining to dig-up whatever feeble piece of nonsense you think that you can cling to.
You are an EPIC FAILURE Kev, and what a joke you are................... you have sold your soul.
Anyway, let’s see if you can muster some semblance of decency and find it in yourself to answer these questions.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said ...

"it's time I gave up hope."

Good!

MichaelN said...

What "common law" was SCOTUS referring to in the Minor v Happersett case?

Why would the SCOTUS in the MvH case recognize doubts as unsolved, where it was doubted that native-birth to alien parents made a citizen at all?

Kev?

Unknown?

Other cockroaches?

MichaelN said...

What "common law" was SCOTUS referring to in the Minor v Happersett case?

Why would the SCOTUS in the MvH case recognize doubts as unsolved, where it was doubted that native-birth to alien parents made a citizen at all?

Kev?

Unknown?

Other cockroaches?

MichaelN said...

We have an eligibility criteria to be met by those who would ALREADY be native-born "citizens of the United States" to be President of the United States, where, besides age and residency requirements, the eligible native-born "citizens of the United States" must also be "natural born Citizens" of the United States.

The question is......

What makes one native-born "citizen of the United States" a
"natural born Citizen" of the United States and thus eligible to be POTUS, and yet another native-born "citizen of the United States" NOT a "natural born Citizen" of the United States?

They were both native-born, so it can't be that.

Higher degree of parental allegiance perhaps?

We have parental allegiance as a factor when determining citizenship of those who are native-born to aliens, and when determining citizenship of those born off-shore to US citizen parents.

So why not also as a factor when determining which US citizens may be eligible for the office of POTUS?

ajtelles said...

Part 1 of 2

Yada Yada Yada Zero Zip Nada from Slartibartfast...

At March 8, 2014 at 1:57 AM

Slartibartfast said...
Part yada yada yada...

Art,

"Since you clearly believe that #2 son would be ineligible, why do you think that the writers of the Confederate Constitution chose to protect themselves against #2 son but not #1 son?"

Huh?
#2 son and #1 son... ?????
S...fast, to what are you referring?

No, don't tell us.
It is obvious that you are going off on a tangent into utopia, the land that does not exist.

- - - - - - - - - -

S...fast, you concede that I am honest about my own home state of Texas and favorite senator Sen. Cruz not being eligible because he is neither implicitly or explicitly an Article II 'natural born Citizen,' but Sen. Cruz IS explicitly only a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act (301(g)) 'citizen,' but you can not adduce ANY ACT of Congress or Amendment to buttress BHO's POTUS eligibility so that I can concede as to your integrity and honesty about BHO.

Here is a common sense Naturalization Act example from the 1700s.

Both the 1790 Naturalization Act and the 1795 Naturalization Act reveal the original birther requirements of birth on U.S. soil AND two (2), yes, S...fast, two (2) U.S. Citizen parents are BOTH as important as the Article II Section 1 Clause 5 requirement of 14 year residence on the SAME U.S. soil by the age of 35 to be eligible to be POTUS.

Both the 1790 and the 1795 Naturalization Acts explicitly reference two (2), that means BOTH parents of a child that might be born on foreign soil are called U.S. citizens, with the 1700s common sense implication that they are married to each other BEFORE the child is born on foreign soil.

Right? Yes, right.

cont.

OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

ajtelles said...

Part 2 of 2

Yada Yada Yada Zero Zip Nada from Slartibartfast...


For Sen. Cruz, BOTH parents were NOT U.S. citizens AND he was born on foreign soil.

For putative President Obama, he claims to have been born on U.S. soil and has spent more than $3.5 million dollars to make the claim in court, AND he admits that ONLY one (1) parent was a U.S. citizen who was NOT married to his foreign born father when BHO was born some 'when' some 'where.'

Who IS that guy?

So, S...fast, what common sense reason is there to assert with an honest mind that just because BHO says that he was born on U.S. soil but with ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent, contrary to the Article II 'natural born Citizen' designation that was mirrored by the 1790 Naturalization Act 'natural born Citizen' designation and birth with two U.S. citizen married parents, and the 1795 Naturalization Act 'citizen' designation and birth with two U.S. citizen married parents, how can you assert with an honest and straight face and your integrity intact, S...fast, that BHO is ipso facto a 'natural born Citizen' of America because BHO says he was born on U.S. soil and the best you can do is to ipso facto assert that only one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient and you do not adduce de jure support?

Well, S...fast, you can not admit that you are not honest about BHO not being eligible because you obviously know that BHO is ONLY a 'citizen,' explicitly a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act (301(a)) 'citizen,' since BOTH of his parents were not married to each other and BOTH of his parents were not U.S. citizens before he was born on either U.S. soil or on foreign soil, some 'where' and some 'when' to some 'who' whomever that was.

Who IS that guy?

BHO is definitely NOT a 1790 Naturalization Act 'natural born Citizen' with two (2) married to each other parents who were BOTH U.S. citizens BEFORE the child was born on foreign soil before that 1790 'natural born Citizen' designation was repealed and replaced by the 1795 Naturalization Act 'citizen' designation for a child born with two (2) married parents who were BOTH U.S. citizens BEFORE the child was born on foreign soil. Right?

Who IS that guy?

S...fast, do you know who he is, and do you with an honest heart say that you believe 'that guy' who has managed to 'OCCUPY' America without clear and unadulterated Article II papers?

If you do believe BHObama, S...fast, you are either blinded by the hope and change collectivist vision that wants to transform America into a national health care commune or you are a paid or unpaid shill for 'that guy,' whomever he is.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"If what I said is so laughable, why have you not been able to give me one example of a 'citizen of the United States,' who Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 grandfathered to be eligible to be President, and who was at the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified, also a 'natural born citizen?'"

Because that's not what you asked me.

It's also not directly relevant to your claim at issue. Slartibartfast has taken up that tangent, and I missed his point at first. He argues that the Founders considered most of themselves to be natural-born citizens, even though born before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. I think he's probably right, but it's beside any point of mine.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Not only do you not have the mental capacity to understand what a 'natural born citizen' is, but you also lack in basic logical skills. I never said that a 'natural born citizen' cannot also be a 'citizen of the United States,' for clearly 'natural born citizens' also satisfy [...]"

You said exactly what I quoted you saying. You yourself presented it as: ''You and Unknown do not like my statement: "The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."''

No, I love that statement of yours. Contrary to what you now pretend, it does imply that a 'natural born citizen' cannot also be a 'citizen of the United States' in the context of Article II. I agree that clearly 'natural born citizens' also satisfy the criteria for being citizens of the United States, and that's what makes your statement so clearly nuts.

And if you knew that 'natural born citizens' are also 'citizens of the United States', then why did you ask, "how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You invent stuff when you say that Minor said that Congress has the 'constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were its citizens.'"

Here's how inventive I was there:

Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided "that any alien, being a free white person," might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, and that the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under twenty-one years of age at the time of such naturalization, should also be considered citizens of the United States, and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens.
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), at 168.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You derisively tell us that everyone knows that at the time of the adoption of the Constitution being a 'citizen of the United States' as of the time of its adoption was sufficient to be President. But what is missing from your snark is you demonstrating how being a 'citizen of the United States' continued to be sufficient after its adoption."

So my snark is missing a falsehood.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You state that you have proven me wrong because you have been able to give me examples of persons who became 'citizens of the United States' after the adoption of the Constitution who were not only eligible to be President but actually served in that capacity. As examples, you have named past Presidents, Abraham Lincoln, Ronald W. Reagan, and George H. Walker Bush."

Specifically that proves you wrong when you wrote: "The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You only told us that Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush were 'citizens of the United States.' Are you suggesting that they scammed the Framers and the People of the United States by being 'citizens of the United States' after the adoption of the Constitution and still serving as President?"

No; I make no such suggestion.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You fail to appreciate what it means that the Civil Rights Act, the Fourteenth Amendment, and Acts of Congress, which defined citizenship, did not exist at the time of the adoption of the Constitution.
[...]
The simple point that you continue to miss is that people like Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush are not only 'citizens of the United States' at birth under the Civil Rights Act of 1866, the Fourteenth Amendment, and Act of Congress (8 U.S. Sec. 1401(a)), but also 'natural born citizens'"

What a mess. Lincoln did not fall under the Civil Rights Act of 1866, nor the Fourteenth Amendment, nor 8 U.S.C. Sec 1401(a). One of us does clearly "fail to appreciate what it means that the Civil Rights Act, the Fourteenth Amendment, and Acts of Congress, which defined citizenship, did not exist at the time of the adoption of the Constitution".

One of us also seems to have missed that people such as Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush were/are both citizens of the United States and Article II natural-born citizens at the same time. One of us asked, "how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?" The other of us thinks that question laughable.

MichaelN said...

To be eligible for the office of President of the United States, one must first be a native-born "citizen of the United States".

One does not need to pass the test as a native-born "citizen of the United States" all over again, rather, one must prove to be already a native-born "citizen of the United States" who would be eligible for the office of POTUS, by having a higher allegiance than that which was required to be to first be a native-born "citizen of the United States".

This higher allegiance for the higher position in the executive (i.e. as the president) than what would be achievable by being a mere native-born "citizen of the United States" (i.e. as congressman or senator) makes a native-born "citizen of the United States" also an Article II "natural born Citizen".

The only difference between a native-born "citizen of the United States" who is an Article II natural born Citizen and one who is not, is a higher degree of parental allegiance, i.e. being born to US citizen parents, rather than being born under the weak allegiance of alien (non-citizen) parents.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"If Obama was born in Hawaii (a fact that he has yet to conclusively prove in any court of law)"

Out of 43 U.S. Presidents (counting Cleveland just once) I can find only one that any court of law specifically concluded to be born in the United States. That one is President Obama.

Our of 44 Presidencies (counting Cleveland twice) I know of just one case where the person showed a legal record of birth in the United States in the course of attaining the office. That one, again, is President Obama.

That said, there are other interesting cases:

As Dwight D. Eisenhower was running for his first term, in 1952, at least one newspaper noted his birth certificate. I cannot find any record that he released it, and if anyone can, please cite. What was interesting about Eisenhower's birth certificate in 1952 was that it did not exist until that time. His older brother, Arthur, signed it, attesting to younger brother Dwight's birth 62 years prior.

There's a blow-up of Ronald Wilson Reagan's birth certificate on display at his Presidential Library. The great state of Illinois issued the copy in 1991, after Reagan was out of office. The original dates from 1942, and Reagan was born in 1911. So Reagan got a birth certificate at just about about half the age Eisenhower got one.

Those are the only presidential birth certificates I've heard of. Maybe someone can point to more, but until then, as best we can tell, there's no public record of any birth certificate for any but three U.S. presidents. Eisenhower first got one in his 60's; Reagan in his 30's; Obama at zero years zero months zero weeks and four days. As a candidate, Obama showed an official state record to prove it. As President, Obama obtained a certified copy of the original, and showed that too.

The way a certain hateful faction tells the story, one might think Obama is the only U.S. president who did not show his birth certificate to prove he is eligible for the office. The truth is the opposite. Obama is the only one who did.

As we go into why the Donofrio/Apuzzo/Taitz theory failed every time in courts of law, we can easily lose sight of why the public reacts to Obama deniers with utter revulsion and disgust. It's not about a technical legal point. Mr. Apuzzo, you may naively think that adding on reasons why Obama cannot be president could only help help your case, but in reality it just makes your deal more obvious.

Unknown said...

Hack masin would not even look at the computer generated forgery BC because he had no idea where it (haha) came from and also ignored article 2, minor and 14th amendment which obviously have less authority than the english common law and a natural born subject. Despite seeing no evidence of where chronic liar was born or who his parents masin still said he believed barry was born in hawaii. Barrys smarmy lawyer said mickey mouse could be on nj ballot and even though little leaguers need a legit bc to play obama sure as hell did not need one to get on nj ballot

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of III

Not only are you a terrible reader, but you are also a terrible chef. It does not matter how you cut and slice the White House bread, today a “citizen of the United States” is not eligible to be President, for only a “natural born citizen” is. You also cannot shake the incontrovertible truth that since DF President Barack Hussein Obama and Senator Ted Cruz are neither “a natural born Citizen, [n]or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution,” they are not eligible to be President.

Here is the wording of the controlling constitutional provision which can be found at Article II, Section 1, Clause 5:

“No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

The natural born citizen clause has application only for determining eligibility for the Office of President and Vice-President (by way of the Twelfth Amendment). All other citizens in the United States, regardless of how that status was obtained, are equal in their privileges, immunities, and rights.

The insertion of the “natural born citizen” clause into the Constitution was probably due to a letter dated July 25, 1787 that John Jay wrote to then-General George Washington in which he stated:

"Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and reasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Command in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen”(underlying “born” in the original).

See the handwritten Jay letter here: http://wwwapp.cc.columbia.edu/ldpd/jay/image?key=columbia.jay.10627&p=1&level=1

Jay wanted a “strong check” to the admission of foreigners into the national government in general and that only a “natural born citizen” be allowed to be the Commander in Chief of the Military. So, while Jay wanted members of the government to be Americans, he recommended that the Commander of the military satisfy even a higher citizenship standard which was being a natural born citizen.

There is other historical evidence that the Framers used the natural born citizen requirement to keep out of the Office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military foreign and monarchical influence. Alexander Hamilton clearly explained the Framers’ purpose:

“Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union? But the convention have guarded against all danger of this sort, with the most provident and judicious attention. “

Alexander Hamilton, "The Federalist Papers No. 68, "The Mode of Electing the President"" (March 14, 1788).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

Delegate Charles Cotesworth Pinckney of South Carolina said in a speech before the U.S. Senate in 1800:

“It was intended to give your President the command of your forces, the disposal of all the honors and offices of your Government, the management of your foreign concerns, and the revision of your laws. Invested with these important powers, it was easily to be seen that the honor and interest of your Government required he should execute them with firmness and impartiality; . . . “to insure experience and attachment to the country, they have determined that no man who is not a natural born citizen, or citizen at the adoption of the Constitution, of fourteen years residence, and thirty-five years of age, shall be eligible. . . .”

Farrand, Max. "Charles Pinckney in the United States Senate". The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Vol. 3.

And St. George Tucker, America’s Blackstone, explained in 1803 in his famous commentaries on the common law of England, that the clause is "a happy means of security against foreign influence", and that "[t]he admission of foreigners into our councils, consequently, cannot be too much guarded against.”

Tucker, St. George (1803). "St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries 1:App. 316–25, 328–29".

By cutting off any acquisition or inheritance of foreign allegiance and citizenship through jus sanguinis (inheritance from alien parents) or jus soli (acquisition from birth in a foreign nation), the “natural born citizen” clause was seen as serving to advance the goal of keeping foreign and monarchical influence out of the Offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military by requiring future presidents to be born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, which produced allegiance, loyalty, and faith only to the United States from the moment of birth. Indeed, any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was born with allegiance to any foreign power was to be excluded by the natural born citizen clause from being eligible for the Office of President and Commander of the U.S. military.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

What made Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush eligible to be President under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 is that they were “natural born citizens,” not that they were also “citizens” under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they adopted the Constitution or under some colonial or founding era state naturalization statute, making them under the Constitution also “citizens of the United States,” and also happened to be “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress, positive and municipal laws which did not exist when the Framers adopted the Constitution. If they had not satisfied the common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth (the only definition that is constitutionally relevant when applying the “natural born citizen” clause) and had been only “citizens” or “citizens of the United States,” like DF President Obama, who gained that status only under the Fourteenth Amendment and 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) (assuming he was born in the United States) and Senator Ted Cruz, who gained that status only under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g) (becoming a “citizen of the United States” by the skin of his teeth), laws which came into existence many years after the Constitution was ratified and which are therefore not relevant in defining a “natural born citizen,” they would not have been eligible to be President. Rather, what carries the day for them is not that they were post-Constitution “citizens of the United States” like Obama and Cruz, who are “citizens of the United States” (but not “Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution”), but rather that they were, under the one and only relevant common law definition of a “natural born citizen” relied upon by the Framers when they adopted the Constitution, what neither Obama nor Cruz can ever be, “natural born citizens.” Unlike Obama and Cruz, who were born with dual and conflicting allegiances (Obama born in allegiance to the United States [if born in the United States], Great Britain, and Kenya, and Cruz born in allegiance to Canada, Cuba, and the United States), Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush were born with allegiance, loyalty, and faith only to the United States, assuring that they were born free of any foreign and monarchical influence. So, unlike Obama and Cruz, who are neither “a natural born Citizen, [n]or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution,” and therefore not eligible to be President, they were “natural born citizens” and, also satisfying the age and residency requirements, eligible to be President and Commander.

Unknown and NotLinda, your commentary is not only trite, but also filled with historical, legal, and logical errors. On the other hand, what I have written is not only well supported by historical and legal evidence, but also reasonable and logical. So, all the laughter is mine and all the tears are yours.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You quote me out of context thus:

"You invent stuff when you say that Minor said that Congress has the 'constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were its citizens.'"

Then you provide this snarky reply:

“Here's how inventive I was there:

Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided "that any alien, being a free white person," might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, and that the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under twenty-one years of age at the time of such naturalization, should also be considered citizens of the United States, and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens.

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), at 168.

+++++

My reply:

Here is what I said in context to which you have not responded:

"You invent stuff when you say that Minor said that Congress has the “constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were its citizens.” That question was not before the Court. In any event, Congress can consider such children as “natural born citizens,” which is what it did in 1790. But that means nothing, for I can consider you as my brother, but that does not make you my brother in fact. I can also through statute adopt a child, but that does not make that child my natural child. Moreover, assuming that Congress has such power, once you open the door and give Congress the power, that door must remain open for Congress to decline to exercise that power or to exercising that power as it deems reasonable and proper. Hence, Congress surely then also has the power to consider such children no longer “natural born citizens,” which is what it specifically did starting in 1795 and so continuing to today. So, you are not able to point to one Act of Congress on the books today in which is considers anyone a “natural born citizen.” Please do tell to what Acts of Congress that are still in effect today Ted Cruz and Obama, if he was not born in the United States, are looking in which Congress considers them as “natural born citizens?”

It is also contrary to fundamental constitutional law that you would suggest that Congress can amend the meaning of a “natural born citizen,” which is amending the Constitution, with a statute rather than with a duly ratified constitutional amendment.”

Again, the question of the extent of Congress's naturalization power was not before the Court. Minor never said Congress had the power to make anyone into a constitutional “natural born citizen.” It only said that Congress provided in the 1790 Act, a naturalization act, that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “should be considered as natural-born citizens.” The Court interpreted Congress’s “shall” to mean “should” which says a lot about this so-called power which you invent.

Additionally, you do not address my point that if Congress has any such power, it can exercise it however it deems necessary and proper and that Congress (with Rep. James Madison and President George Washington’s approval) would have again exercised that power in 1795 to remove the “natural born citizen” status and replaced it with the status of a “citizen of the United States,” which is not sufficient to be eligible to be President.

Moreover, Congress has never again exercised its naturalization powers to make anyone a “natural born citizen,” including when it got passed the Fourteenth Amendment.

So, Unknown, are you going to really address anything that I write or are you going to just simply continue with your little snippets of trite nonsense and continue to tell us about the courts that I selected for my cases?

ajtelles said...

Part 1 of 2

So clear...

Mario, even terrible readers should be able to understand the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act words in the two sections you cited in the part 3 large paragraph on March 9, 2014 at 7:00 PM,

>> 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) - applies to BHObama
>> 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g) - applies to Sen. Rafael Edward 'Ted' Cruz

Senator Cruz is my home state of Texas senator and, since the Texas primary on March 4, 2014 in which I was a precinct Judge, STILL my favorite Senator.

My hope is that some day Sen. Cruz will be shown your clear articulation of the 'natural born Citizen' issue and will declare himself not “... eligible to the Office of the President” according to the clear original intent of the 1787 original birthers and the original intent of the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act, specifically 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).

With one simple and low-key news conference, Sen. Cruz would elevate himself into international statesmanship status as an honest man and an honest politician who was true to his Constitution, true to his principles, true to his people who elected him and who decided to seek a higher calling by protecting and defending the U.S. Constitution from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic, including well-meaning TEA Party patriots who simply are either not informed, or if they are informed, do not use their BIG Talker mikes and BIG Blogger blogs to inform their listeners and readers about the original intent of the original birthers who wrote the original birther document of America, the U.S. Constitution, and specifically in context, the perpetual words 'natural born Citizen.'

cont.

Original Birther Document

ajtelles said...

Part 2 of 2

So clear...

I am referring to the BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers like

_Mark Levin
_Sarah Palin
>> (Sarah's March 8, 2014 CPAC keynote speech is one for the history books because she chastised the Republican establishment, but especially her Green Eggs and Ham "I do not like ... nope, nope, nope" rhyme)
_Glenn Beck
_Rush Limbaugh
_NRO.com (National Review Online)
_Breitbart.com
_HumanEvents.com
_PamelaGeller.com (formerly AtlasShrugs2000.typepad.com)
_Robert Spencer at JihadWatch.org
_David Horowitz at FrontPageMag.com

and etc., soooooooooooo many etc. too.

What you are doing with your writings and court cases, Mario, is for the history books. Yes, even the shallow reasoning by the judges who make foolish rulings and simply de facto assert that BHO is a 'natural born Citizen' simply because, at the physical union of two people who were not married to each other when they united and still not married to each other after the child was born, at least one party of the physical union, his mother, was a U.S. citizen.

Eventually, Mario, the true truth will come out and even the BIG Talkers and the BIG Bloggers will start asking themselves a simple question that you have already answered in court and elsewhere profusely.

Hey, who IS that guy?
How did he 'OCCUPY' the oval office without Article II Section 1 Clause 5 authority?

Art
Original Birther Document

MichaelN said...

@ Unknown and the other cockroaches....

Think of the Article II POTUS eligibility clause like, selection of a captain who is already a member of the team.

To be a "natural born Citizen" is not a criteria to be met to be a native-born "citizen of the United States", (that should already be met) rather it is a criteria for a person who is ALREADY a native-born "citizen of the United States" to be eligible for POTUS.

thalightguy said...

thalightguy said...

Mario,

Your logic is deductively sound.

1.The Framers of the United States Constitution understood the dangers of “foreign influence”.

2.The Framers knew Naturalized citizens could have “divided
allegiance”.

3.The Framers understood a person with “divided
allegiance” could be subject to “foreign influence”.

4.The Framers did not want the President of the United
States to have “divided allegiance”.

5.The Framers made it a Constitutional requirement that
only a “natural born Citizen” can be President.

6.A naturalized citizen cannot be a “natural born Citizen”.

7.A “natural born Citizen” is born with sole allegiance to the United States.

8.The United States Constitution can only be changed by Constitutional Amendment.

9.The Constitution has never been amended to change who
can be President.

10.The Congress does not have the power to add to or take away from who a “natural born Citizen” is.

11.A “natural born Citizen” today is the same as who a “natural born Citizen” was when the Framers inserted the term into the Constitution.

12.The U.S. Dept. of State defines a person who has “dual
nationality” as a person who has “divided allegiance”.

13.A "natural born Citizen" cannot be born with dual nationalities.

14.Obama's father was Kenyan; he was never a citizen of the United States.

15.At birth Obama inherited his father’s citizenship.

16.Obama at birth was a “dual national”.

17.Obama is not a "natural born Citizen".

18.Obama cannot be President of the United States.

19.The #1 Resident at the White House is the President of the United States.

20.Obama occupies the White House as #1 Resident.

21.Obama is usurping the Presidency.

22.The Constitution gives Congress the Power to establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization.

23.Persons born abroad do not acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if they do not fulfill the requirements established in the uniform Rule of Naturalization.

24.Prior to May 24, 1934 a person born abroad to a U.S. citizen mother and a non U.S. citizen father did not acquire U.S. citizenship at birth.

25.Persons born abroad may acquire U.S. citizenship at birth if they fulfill the requirements established in the uniform Rule of Naturalization.

26.Senator Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and a non U.S. citizen father; he acquired U.S. citizenship at birth.

27.Persons born abroad who acquire U.S. citizenship at birth are citizens by Naturalization.

28.Senator Ted Cruz is a U.S. citizen by Naturalization.

29.Senator Ted Cruz is not a “natural born Citizen”.

30.Senator Ted Cruz cannot be President.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "Moreover, assuming that Congress has such power, once you open the door and give Congress the power, that door must remain open for Congress to decline to exercise that power or to exercising that power as it deems reasonable and proper."
~ ~ ~
Mario bravely and authoritative pretends that the very basis of his "assuming" is not without any basis whatever in logic, or in the language of the words of the Constitution.
His entire approach is to simply rely on his own credibility as an attorney to bamboozle the unthinking, sycophantic followers into buying into his basic but false assumption.

NO Mario, I DO NOT ASSUME any such thing! PROVE IT! or go home!

His second utterly false assumption, supported by nothing but hot air, is that Congress "exercised" an "authority" which it did not possess, -did not claim to possess, and never relied on until the bastardization of American federal law by the federal high court unconstitutionally transferring power to where the Constitution forbids it (to Washington from the States) stealing the sovereign authority of the semi-sovereign STATES to control their own immigration and naturalization.

Mario complains about the bastardization of the meaning of natural born citizen, and yet in order to legitimize his nativist doctrine, he is a part of the problem by illegitimately ascribing to Congress authority that never existed, and still does not exist.

He will not explain where it came from. HE CAN'T!
Instead he simply demands that you gullibly assume, with him, that it did.
Turn off you brain and don't think! Trust Mario to think for you.
That's the same tactic that the lying obamunists resort to!

"Hence, Congress ***surely*** then also ***has the power*** to consider such children no longer “natural born citizens,” which is what it specifically did starting in 1795."
No, IT DID NOT! It labeled them accurately as citizens of the U.S. (as apposed to foreigners) NBCs, as a subset of "Citizens", were STILL NBCs. Nothing changed except the issue of presidential eligibility was removed from a naturalization bill.

Unknown said...

You cannot be a natural born citizen if you are in a naturalisation act but you can be a citizen. Name one act of congress in us history that said children of americans born in us are citizens. A real NBC never needed a nat act to become a citizen.

ajtelles said...

Part 1 of 2

S...fast, I was not going to respond to your March 8 post, but I decided that your “straw man” word twisting is an excellent opportunity.

Slartibartfast said on March 8, 2014 at 1:56 AM

>> “As for ajtelles,
>> he makes a straw man out of my point
>> on the Confederate Constitution
>> and then congratulates himself for beating the straw man.

No, not so fast S...fast.

Since I made the original point about the 1861 Confederate Constitution mirroring the 1787 Federal Constitution regarding the original intent of the original birthers when they wrote the three word unit 'natural born Citizen,' it is you who has made a straw man out of MY point on the Confederate Constitution and then you congratulated yourself for constructing your “Kenyan” Potemkin village utopia.

My point about the 1861 Confederate constitution takes precedence since I originated it, so it is not my obligation to go on your “Kenyan” with two wives and two children snipe hunt.

>> Ameican Heritage Dictionary, Fourth Edition
>> snipe hunt n.

>> 1. An elaborate practical joke in which an unsuspecting person takes part in a bogus hunt for a snipe, typically being left alone in the dark with instructions not to move until the snipe appears.

>> 2. A futile search or endeavor.

S...fast, it is up to you to stick with reality concerning BHObama and his lack of POTUS eligibility in the same way that I stick with reality concerning my home state of Texas favorite senator, Senator Ted Cruz.

Since the 1861 Confederate constitution mirrored the 1787 Federal constitution, the wording is obviously consistent, not inconsistent as you assert.

The 1861 Confederate constitution applied POTUS eligibility to those born in the US before 1860 that same way the Federal constitution “adopted” in 1787 applied POTUS eligibility to those bore before 1787. They grandfathered them into eligibility. Right? Yes, right.

Your “Kenyan” illustration is an utopian Potemkin village construction; it exists in your mind because you constructed it, sure, but it is utopian, a place that does not exist in the minds of others as an inhabitable place worth visiting.

You can construct innumerable utopias to illustrate whatever you want, but if you do not start with the original intent of the original birthers whom you denigrate as 'birthers' (and in doing so you denigrate yourself as an Obama birther), you will always find yourself heading off on a tangent into the land that does do not exist, utopia.

Remember, S...fast, your argument is not with me or Mario, your argument is with the original birthers.


Original Birther Document

ajtelles said...

Part 2 of 2

>> See Jay's July 25, 1787 handwritten letter to Washington with “born” underlined at
>> http://wwwapp.cc.columbia.edu/ldpd/jay/image?key=columbia.jay.10627&p=1&level=1
>> or at http://originalbirtherdocument3.blogspot.com

>> "Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and reasonable to provide a strong check
>> to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government;
>> and to declare expressly that the Command in Chief of the American army
>> shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.”
>> (“born” was underlined in the original)

So, S...fast, what do you think John Jay, who recommended the 'natural born Citizen' POTUS eligibility requirement to George Washington, the presiding officer of the Constitutional Convention, would say about your Potemkin village utopian illustration about a “Kenyan” and his two wives and two children and their allegiance?

Well, first Jay would blink, blink twice, and maybe blink a third time, and then ask you if you have read and understood Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

Jay would probably say that if you understand the original intent of the original birthers, your answer is right there in the sixth word “born” in the implied context of a “citizen” born to parents who are married to each other and who are both citizens of the Union before the child is born.

Jay was obviously NOT implying that ANY child born on foreign soil would be an nbC, was he? Right? Right.

Jay was obviously NOT implying that it would NOT matter if both, or one or zero parents were U.S. citizens before the child is born. Right? Right.

Jay was obviously NOT implying that ANY child born on U.S. soil would be an nbC if ONLY one parent was a U.S. citizen, or if zero parents were U.S. citizens. Right? Right.

S...fast, simply analyze the original intent of Article II Section 1 Clause 5 as the original birthers wrote it and you will be armed with all the explicit and implicit info you need to deal with ANY “Kenyan” Potemkin village utopian illustration you can construct here or in your “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirther dreams.

So, S...fast, instead of me wasting MY time analyzing your Kenyan snipe hunt hypothetical or any other hypothetical you can come up with, how about YOU defining and defending your own utopian “Kenyan” Potemkin village illustration and in doing so exposing the inconsistency of your own definition and defense of your allegiance question.

S...fast, for me to analyze your utopian “Kenyan” Potemkin village illustration would be an exercise in futility, but for you to define and defend your your own “Kenyan” Potemkin village illustration would be an exercise of enlightenment, because it would provide those who adhere to the original intent of the original birthers an opportunity to analyze YOUR consistent or inconsistent reasoning processes and point out your inconsistencies using your own definitions of your own words.

S...fast, that request for you to define and defend your conclusions is not a 'snipe hunt,' it is an honest invitation to a legitimate hunt for your defense of your definitions so that your conclusions can be used to understand your “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Potemkin village utopian dream that BHObama is a 'natural born Citizen' because at least ONE of his parents was at least a citizen of the U.S. BEFORE he was born some “when” some “where” or any “where” because where ever “where” is and which hospital he was born in, it is still not clear after all these years.

“O”bama... who IS this guy?

- - - - - - - - - -

Art
Original Birther Document

thalightguy said...

Mario,

Any comments regarding the following:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docketfiles/13-1076.htm

If evasion can be overcome, I know you can get the Job done.

Godspeed Sir.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ajtelles,

Slartibartfast is so confused that he thinks that George Washington had to be a “citizen of the United States” for 14 years in order to be eligible for the Office of President. He adds that only if Washington was a citizen from the date of his birth would he have met the 14 year citizenship requirement. Clearly, he is wrong because Article II requires the President to be either a “natural born citizen” or a “citizen of the United States” at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. He makes his erroneous argument to attempt to prove that I am mistaken in my position that after July 4, 1776 and before the Constitution was ratified, a state citizen was the only class of citizen existing in the states who came into being on July 4, 1776, and that the Constitution upon ratification made those who were state citizens into “citizens of the United States,” retroactive to July 4, 1776.

He and his Obot partners also think that persons born prior to July 4, 1776 could be “natural born citizens” of a state or the United States. I have already addressed this issue many times and demonstrated that someone cannot be a natural born citizen” of a nation that did not yet exist at the time of birth. Nor can someone be a natural born citizen of a nation if born on the soil of a different nation or to parents who were citizens of a different nation at the time of one’s birth. Additionally, his position is also not consistent with what the framers of the Confederate Constitution believed. I also note that Unknown a/k/a NotLinda has not been able to come to his aid.

Unknown said...

children of americans born outside of US were not "considered as" NBCs anymore in NA 1795 which is why George Washington called them citizens of the US. These children (going out on a big limb here) were naturalised by the Naturalisation Act of 1795. This is pretty much 2nd grade level connect the dots.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

thatlightguy wrote: "2.The Framers knew Naturalized citizens could have “divided allegiance”.

That stop too short. It should include all persons not born of citizens, which includes immigrants, their foreign-born children, their native-born children, and naturalized citizens.

You may not realize it but there's a whole can of worms in this one:

15. At birth Obama inherited his father’s citizenship.

Exactly. And how? By Natural Law. By Natural Membership. And what is the implication of that fact? It is that the son of an American couple born in Kenya inherits his American parents' American citizenship at birth and by birth.

He is not a naturalized citizen. He is a natural citizen via inheritance, -not via law.

That means that the founders were absolutely correct to label foreign-born American children what they are by nature; i.e., natural born citizens of their parents' country.
It is 100% UNnatural to label them as anything else other than Citizens of the United States since that is the parent set of the natural citizens subset. It's a total no-brainer.

MichaelN said...

leo derosia said...

You cannot be a natural born citizen if you are in a naturalisation act but you can be a citizen. Name one act of congress in us history that said children of americans born in us are citizens. A real NBC never needed a nat act to become a citizen.

March 10, 2014 at 3:44 PM

..................

Leo, this is so true!

Parental allegiance was and is mentioned as measurable consideration for all other instances in determining qualification for US citizenship (i.e. in The US Constitution, nat acts, statutes, rules and codes, etc)

The only US citizen entity which has no mention of parental allegiance in determining citizenship, is the "natural born Citizen" of the United States.

Even the parents of native-born to aliens get a mention, regarding allegiance, i.e. "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".

So why don't US citizen parents of native-born children, get a mention?

"subject to the jurisdiction thereof" gets these native-born children of citizens past the post as COTUS.

So, we have some COTUS with non-citizen parents and some with COTUS parents and we have some amongst them who would be eligible for POTUS.

Surely the Founders and Framers must have given consideration of US citizen parents in the scenario of native-born children born to them.

Who would the average reasoning person choose as a stand-out when weighing eligibility for the different levels of executive office?

It doesn't get any more obvious.

Absolutely absurd is the suggestion that the Framers didn't choose the highest and best option available in terms of allegiance.

In the Framing period it was so obvious that the highest allegiance through native-birth to citizen parents, it didn't need any explaining, it was a state of being to be recognized, impossible, in the context of the new constitutional republic, to be permitted or denied.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash informs:

An advanced search of the term "natural citizen" located this from the HARVARD LAW SCHOOL LIBRARY; -THE VEST POCKET LAWYER booklet c. 1919

418. The Constitution of the United States is the supreme law of the land.
419. The Constitution of the United States gives to every natural citizen, and guarantees to that citizen, political, religious, and civil rights.
420. Every NATURAL CITIZEN of the United States, is first, a citizen of the United States.

The use of the adjective "natural" to describe citizen is evidence of a form of citizenship which is outside of the legal realm, -pre-dating it, -existing as a natural extension of the natural realm which has (as a fundamental element of all social groups) the principle of natural membership (off-spring are the same as their parents).

In the realm of national membership we have the natural law of natural citizenship.

By that law, all children of citizens are citizens also, just like their parents from whom they inherit their national membership.

If one parent is an alien, then the off-spring of such a couple will be a hybrid, cross-breed citizen with dual citizenship.
Such citizens are not eligible to serve as President.

Obama is not such a citizen because he did not inherit the citizenship of his mother since, for domestic births within marriage, citizenship is inher-
ited
from the head of the family, which is the father.

NATURAL CITIZEN: a citizen-born citizen whose national membership is via inheritance, -not law.

Both obots and Apuzzians together turn a deaf ear to what truth is trying to tell them. They are both wrong. Citizenship passes from father to child in the absence of law, -just as Vattel described. Domestic-birth is irrelevant.

But dogmatic minds cannot accept the truth that is right in front of their faces.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Leo,

The Obot & Co. approach to the natural born citizen debate is telling us with plenty of snark that the status quo position has been the nation’s position since the Founding and that the Anti-Obots have the burden of proof to show otherwise, something is in a case or law when it is not, and something is not in a case or law when it is.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash informs:

leo derosia said...

"You cannot be a natural born citizen if you are in a naturalisation act...
A real NBC never needed a nat act to become a citizen."

Leo, your thinking is sadly stunted. You can be "in" any act of Congress if they wish to protect your natural rights from the very same viewpoint that you are holding and expressing.

Congress declared foreign-born American children to be natural born citizens because of the unAmerican mind-set of jus solians who mistakenly might assume that national membership is determined by borders and birth location. Those people are you.
Congress was attempting to defend the presidential eligibility of ALL American natural citizens from agents of state who might hold your view.
Since they were not protected by the Constitution, nor the Bill of Rights, they had to be protected in that very first act written to deal with aliens.

They were not included in the act because they were aliens but because they were foreign-born like aliens and the age-old British jus soli mind-set was still widely prevalent in commonwealth states.

That mind-set was oblivious to the American natural law principle of natural citizenship via inheritance of the father's political character.

That mind-set might attempt to block a natural born citizen from presidential eligibility merely because of the irrelevant first event of life, -birth into the world.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash ruminates:

~a new thought...

One enters the world as a living infant but with a certain political character invisibly attached.

That character is determined by who one's parents are. It is inherited. It determines one's citizenship.

Also, what they are determines what one is not.
From that standpoint, one can make an analogy of birth resulting in one of three possibilities in connection to presidential eligibility.

One is either born live, possessing the life and the political DNA of the American parents or a widowed American mother; or...
one is born adopted, -possessing the political DNA of a foreign immigrant father (via the political equivalent of a sperm-bank donor and/or egg donor with artificial insemination); or...
one is born dead, -with the political DNA of a non-immigrant foreigner who is the child of an ambassador, a hostile invader, or a guest of the U.S. government in the country on a temporary Visa instead of a Green Card which makes one a member of American society.

Born Live: one is a natural born citizen by being citizen-born.

Born adopted: one is a constitutional citizen via the 14th Amendment (as construed in 1898)by being immigrant-born.

Born dead: one is an alien and not a citizen by birth to a non-immigrant father.

That is the category in which Barack Obama was born.

(1) He was born British. uncontested.
(2) His mother's citizenship was not transmitted by U.S. law.

(3) His father's residence status was as a temporary guest so neither father nor son were subject to the full sovereign authority of Washington.

(4) Only those born subject (the citizen-born and the immigrant-born) are U.S. citizens.

(5) Obama Jr. was not born subject.

(6) Obama Jr. was not born a citizen.

(7) No non-citizen is a natural born citizen of the United States.

(8) No non-citizen is eligible to be President.

What could be clearer? It's natural logic and natural and national law.

Who can possibly disagree?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

Let me understand this. You maintain that the First Congress, which in the Naturalization Act of 1790 said that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens:”

“declared foreign-born American children to be natural born citizens because of the unAmerican mind-set of jus solians who mistakenly might assume that national membership is determined by borders and birth location. Those people are you.
Congress was attempting to defend the presidential eligibility of ALL American natural citizens from agents of state who might hold your view.

Since they were not protected by the Constitution, nor the Bill of Rights, they had to be protected in that very first act written to deal with aliens.

They were not included in the act because they were aliens but because they were foreign-born like aliens and the age-old British jus soli mind-set was still widely prevalent in commonwealth states.

That mind-set was oblivious to the American natural law principle of natural citizenship via inheritance of the father's political character.

That mind-set might attempt to block a natural born citizen from presidential eligibility merely because of the irrelevant first event of life, -birth into the world.”

+++++

But then the Third Congress, led by Rep. James Madison and with the approval of President George Washington, just 5 years later, in the Naturalization Act of 1795, changed that and said, not a “natural born citizen” (the only class of citizen to be eligible for those born after the adoption of the Constitution), but rather “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Would you care to explain to us all if Congress wanted to do all those nice things that you said it wanted to do in 1790, why it changed its mind about whether those foreign-born children were natural born citizens, deciding that they were only “citizens of the United States,” which if not natural born citizens, under Article II were no longer eligible to be President?

MichaelN said...

Stranger said ...

"Born Live: one is a natural born citizen by being citizen-born."
..............

Nonsense, garbage!

One is an Article II "natural born Citizen" by being citizen-born to US citizen parents and native-born in US.

Children born off-shore to US citizen parents, are NOT Article II "natural born Citizen"s, because they do not have the high degree of allegiance which is required; i.e. they lack the REQUIRED native-birth quality.

This has been shown and proven to you repeatedly and your la-la-land fantasies have been repeatedly proven wrong.

Whatever you are taking or smoking; I would return it, and ask for my money back.

It's plain to see that the US Congress at one time (i.e.1790) said that children born off-shore to US citizen parents were "considered as natural born citizens", then changed that to "citizens of the United States".

By doing this, the Congress virtually said that a child born off-shore is "citizen of the United States" by virtue of his/her birth to US citizens, i.e. the child would be a citizen born, aka a born citizen, but a child must also be native-born to be a "natural born citizen".

Ergo: If a "natural born citizen" of the United States exists, and off-shore birth to US citizens is NOT sufficient to make a NBC, then it can ONLY BE NATIVE-BIRTH to US citizens which makes a NBC OTUS.

thalightguy said...

Stranger,

The logical truth Mario presents is both valid and sound. Unlike your logic and the Obama loyalist logic which is valid but not sound.

Mario’s Logic:

1.“No Person except a natural born Citizen...shall be eligible to the Office of President….”
2.A “natural born Citizen” is born with undivided allegiance to the United States.
3.Rand was born in the United States to citizen parents.
4.John was born in Panama to parents who were serving in the defense of the United States.
5.George was born in Mexico to citizen parents.
6.Obama is assumed to be born in the United States to a non citizen father.
7.Rand and John are eligible to serve as President; George and Obama are not.

Stranger’s and Obama loyalist logic:

1.All things with wings can fly.
2.All birds have wings.
3.Ostriches are birds.
4.Therefore, Ostriches can fly.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thalightguy,

Your presentation on valid but unsound logical arguments is very good. Your ostrich argument is logically valid but unsound. It is valid because the conclusion does follow from the form of the argument. But it is unsound because the first premise, all things with wings can fly, is false (all things with wings do not fly), which leads to a false conclusion.

Here is the Jack Maskell's logically valid but logically unsound natural born citizen argument:

All born citizens are natural born citizens.

Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are born citizens.

Therefore Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are natural born citizens.

This argument is logically valid because the conclusion does follow from the form of the argument. But the argument is unsound because the first premise is false, which leads to the false conclusion that Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens.

Additionally, there is a logically invalid argument hidden in Maskell’s thesis. It goes like this:

All natural born citizens are born citizens.

Obama and Cruz are born citizens.

Therefore Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens.

This argument is logically invalid because it follows the form of the fallacy called affirming the consequent. Basically, the major premise only establishes that being a born citizen is a necessary condition of being a natural born citizen. It does not say it is a sufficient condition. But then from the second premises which only contains the condition of being a born citizen, we conclude that Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens. So what we have done is conclude that they are natural born citizens form the existence of only a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. So, the form of the argument is erroneous because it convents a necessary condition into a sufficient one.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thalightguy,

You might like this one, too. Here is a great example of an Obot called dunstvangeet trying to define a “natural born citizen” by an analogy that does not work. He asks:

“I am divorced from my wife, who lives across the country from me. She is a single mother, who I send child support from. We are legally divorced, so we are not considered part of the same family at all. We have one child. My wife belongs to the country club near her house.

Now, here comes the problem. The country club clearly says that “only children of members may use the pool.” I want my child to be able to use the pool. Now, it clearly says, “children” and it clearly says “members”. So, my question is two-fold. My ex-wife and I have only one child. Can this child still use the pool? Or do my ex-wife and I have to get together and have another child in order to get the ability to use the country-club pool? And secondly, my ex-wife is a single mom. Do I have to join the country club with a membership that I will never use in order to allow my child to use the pool? After all, the policy clearly states “parents”. My wife is a member, but she’s only one parent. Does this mean that I have to join in order for my child to use the pool?"

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/03/apuzzo-reading-scotus-appeal-in-paige-case/

It is amazing that dunstvangeet thinks that the requirements to be a “natural born citizen,” who owes the nation the highest form of allegiance, faith, and loyalty known to man (“ligeantia naturalis” or natural allegiance) and in whose hands the Founders and Framers entrusted the political and military survival of the republic, should be the same as the requirements to use a community swimming pool. Other than wanting to make more money, can anyone think of any good reasons why a community swimming pool would require that both parents be members in order for their children to use the pool? On the other hand, can we think of any good reasons why a child needs not only to be born in the country, but also to be born to parents who were both its citizens at the time of the child’s birth in order for their child to be a natural born citizen? It is a self-evident truth and intuitive that both parents need to be of the same allegiance and citizenship in order to produce a natural born citizen. The clause “natural born citizen,” using the word “natural born,” and “citizen” in the singular, implies that the child is the citizen of only one nation from the moment of birth. The only way that a child can be born the citizen of only one nation is to be born in the nation of his parents to those parents who are both citizens of that nation at the time of the child’s birth.

Maybe dunstvangeet should try his hand at fables rather than analogies.

Unknown said...

stranger, you can call children of americans born outside of US NBCs all you want but i know what GW called them in 1795. If i really thought GW considered such children NBCs i would say so. The only definition that matters to me belongs to the people who ratified US Constitution in 1787. I knew when i read minor 2 years ago that something was very wrong with congress, the msm, our courts and every secretary of state in US to allow someone blatantly ineligible on ballot. Self promoters in the media like al dershowitz say cruz is eligible and i would love for mario to put him in his place in a public debate. Mario, i would like to share your essays on facebook to my catatonic friends so maybe your site can do that at some point

Unknown said...

Stranger, A.K.A. Adrien Nash, wrote to Mario Apuzzo:
"DO NOT invent from your imagination what I wrote; quote it directly."

Previously, on 23 Feb 2014, Mr. Nash had written of me:
"Unknown/NotLinda's position is very simple: WKA determined that the alien-born are not aliens but Americans by the high court's decree, and that all Americans are eligible to be President.

I ask, Mr. Nash, that you live up the standard you suggest and directly quote me on that. I do not recall ever taking that position, and I've written quite a bit here that contradicts it.

thalightguy said...

Mario,

Thanks for the insight.

I don’t think I have heard the Obama loyalist present the latter argument. If I have, I must have missed it.

1.All living things that fly have wings.
2.Ostriches have wings.
3.Therefore, Ostriches can fly.

Stranger said...

Learn the truth about the Dunham-Obama divorce from a marriage that never existed.

"WHY OBAMA'S MOTHER NEEDED A FAKE DIVORCE"

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/12/why-obamas-mother-needed-a-fake-divorce/

UNKNOWN wrote: Previously, on 23 Feb 2014, Mr. Nash had written of me:
"Unknown/NotLinda's position is very simple: WKA determined that the alien-born are not aliens but Americans by the high court's decree, and that all Americans are eligible to be President.

I ask, Mr. Nash, that you live up the standard you suggest and directly quote me on that. I do not recall ever taking that position, and I've written quite a bit here that contradicts it.

I think you will agree after the addition of "native-born" to "all Americans". I overlooked the naturalized and their children.

ajtelles said...

"ONLY" Clarity...

Mario, the “only” last sentence of the “only” last paragraph on “only” March 12, 2014 at 12:25 AM nailed the “only” common sense original intent of the original birthers accurately, adequately, necessarily, sufficiently.

>> "The only way
>> that a child can be born the citizen of only one nation
>> is to be born [only] in the nation of his parents
>> to [only] those parents who are both citizens
>> of [only] that nation
>> at the time
>> of the child’s birth."

(my “only” emphasis supplied “only” for emphasis)

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, is there really “only” one way for a 'citizen' to be a 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 'natural born Citizen” of “only” one nation?

Well, a question that “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirthers need to answer for themselves is, how many “only” scenarios can apply?

Is there “only” one way to be a 1787 Article II 'natural born Citizen” or “only” more than one way?


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash responds:

Mario asked; "Would you care to explain to us all if Congress wanted to do all those nice things that you said it wanted to do in 1790, why it changed its mind about whether those foreign-born children were natural born citizens, deciding that they were only “citizens of the United States,” which if not natural born citizens, under Article II were no longer eligible to be President?"

Congress did NOT change its mind.
It was a different Congress, -different people populating it, people who did not understand the reason for the presidential eligibility protection added in the first Nat. Act.

Those new Congressmen did NOT "decide" that foreign-born Americans were an inferior variety of citizen. They simple simplified the act be removing the language whose purpose they didn't understand (since they had no part in writing it).

They failed to see any reason for the subject of presidential eligibility to be included in the act.

They also failed to understand that the first Congress ONLY included mention of foreign-born American children expressly for that purpose and not for the purpose assumed by later Congresses, -that being to protect their natural citizenship from not being recognized and acknowledged by government agents.

That was NOT the reason for their inclusion in that first act. The first Congress assumed that no one in government would assume that American children were aliens in needed of naturalization.

Rather, they assumed that some would not comprehend that native-birth was not an element of natural citizenship and that foreign-birth was not a disqualifier since natural citizens are produced solely by the natural factor of having a citizen father & mother. cont...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues:

Your view of this matter is skewed off-tracked by a misunderstanding of the categories involved. Natural born citizens (the citizen-born) were 98% of the population. Only the alien-born and the naturalized were not nbc.

Understand that the nbc label is like that for a natural son, while the tiny minority who were not nbc could be labeled like a step-son, or illegitimate son, or adopted son. Two different groupings. NBC and non-NBC.

If you, in one instance, refer to your son as your "natural born son", and then later refer to him as your "natural born child", have you thereby downgraded him into someone who is ineligible for inheritance as if he were an illegitimate or step-child?

Clearly not. His status has not changed by employing a more inclusive label to describe him.

I suspect you have a conceptual defect that causes you to conflate "a citizen of the United States" with "a citizen of the United States at the time of the adoption of this Constitution."

They are not the same thing. ALL NBCs are citizens, -of the United States. Attaching the label of the parent group to them did not alter the nature of the sub-group that they comprised, -the sub-group of the citizen-born.

It did not make them members of the sister sub-groups of the naturalized nor the native-but-alien-born.

It merely labeled them alternatively by the label of the parent group of the three: "Citizens" (akin to "children", -as apposed to "sons" or "daughters" or step-child or adopted child).

Not all children (citizens) are eligible to inherit, but all natural children (natural Americans) are eligible. Identical to presidential eligibility.

The first Congress of founders wanted to provide some form of protection for the unalienable right of all American children to serve their country in every capacity, especially if they were sons of America's best; her Ambassadors.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash explains:

MichaelN wrote:

"Children born off-shore to US citizen parents, are NOT Article II "natural born Citizen"s, because they do not have the high degree of allegiance which is required; i.e. they lack the REQUIRED native-birth quality."

There are multiple errors in how you view the matter. The first is in conflating the British royal feudal plantation model of membership with American natural membership, when they are different.

By the bastardization of terminology in Britain, a "natural born subject" is what you misconstrue as being also a natural born citizen, -by the very same criteria.

You mistakenly assume that we are still under the monarchical system, when our founders destroyed it via the treason of the revolution. It was for natural rights that they did that and justified doing it.

The element of native-birth was a necessity under the reign of the English dictators, but absolutely irrelevant under the freedom of natural law.
By it, one's family, society and country membership was inherited from the head of the family. It was all blood-connection membership.

That is the ONLY thing that is natural. The boundaries of the King's domain no longer determined one's national belonging.

One belonged to their parents and they belonged to their own people and nation, along with any child they brought into the world.

Any child born of Americans was a natural born member of the new nation.

You also err is believing that the words n-b-c are a term of legal artifice which can be assigned an arbitrary meaning which includes the factor imposed by the monarchy; birth with his borders.

That is NOT an element of the words themselves, and they mean nothing more than their common language meaning. No one can possibly show that they are a term of art. That is PURE DOGMA!
As I explain in a long exposition not yet online, one cannot underline an individual word within a phrase that is a term of legal artifice.
Such terms have a unitarian meaning and the individual words cannot be singled out as John Jay singled out "born" by underlining it. That is something never done with a term of art since individual words do not necessarily carry individual meaning.
And... there was no established definition of any such term of art in America. Citizens were NOT equivalent to subjects. All who failed to understand that had the British subject disease.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash expands:

Mario shared this false-logic assertion:
All natural born citizens are born citizens.

Obama and Cruz are born citizens.

Therefore Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens

His analysis is dead-on bull's eye. But I'd like to add to it some reinforcement.

The purpose of language modifiers is differentiation. "Born citizen" is thereby differentiated from "natural born citizen" by the addition of the modifier "natural".

Its addition to "born citizen" is to set the new term apart from it as something distinct from it. It they were identical then it would be unnecessary and meaningless to add it.
So... with the presence of the additional modifier, an unspoken, and assumed truth accompanies the statement; "All natural born citizens are born citizens"; and that truth is "but all born citizens are not natural born citizens because "natural" adds differentiation which indicates they are not identical."

The highly logical mind understands the unseen and unstated implication of the addition of "natural", but the logic-impaired mind fails to, and is thus susceptible to the logic error Mario described.

If one innately understood that although all "A"s are "B"s, it doesn't follow that all "B"s are "A"s, then conflating the two would not occur. For it to occur, one's mind must be oblivious to the presence of a differentiating modifier that reveals they are different.
It's near impossible to fix a logic-challenged mind.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash expounds:

Mario wrote:
"...a child needs not only to be born in the country, but also to be born to parents who were both its citizens"

The Light of understanding continually grows brighter, and by it we come to realize that there was no "country"!

Instead there were thirteen separate, individual sovereign nations. No country existed other than the one whose boundaries colonists were born within. That colony / nation / State was their only country before or in 1776 and 1787.
If a mother from one of those 13 countries gave birth in another one, her and her husband's child would be a natural member of their country via inheritance of their political character.
That is why all of the founders (almost) were natural born citizens. Natural born Virginian citizens, Pennsylvania citizens, etc.
Where their child might by circumstance be born was immaterial to its natural membership in their home country.
If your child was born in your sister's home, would that make it not yours? -not a natural member of your family? Would that make it hers? Such stupid questions do not exist in natural law. Nor do they exist in American natural principles of nationality.

The rebellious American traitors threw all of the native-birth human ownership garbage out when it came to their own children.
But they kept it in some states for their immigrant fellows.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash explains:

MichaelN wrote:

"Children born off-shore to US citizen parents, are NOT Article II "natural born Citizen"s, because they do not have the high degree of allegiance which is required; i.e. they lack the REQUIRED native-birth quality."
...............................

"There are multiple errors in how you view the matter. The first is in conflating the British royal feudal plantation model of membership with American natural membership, when they are different."

Reply:

There are no errors.

You are in denial, you are WRONG and you are annoyingly running interference for the traitorous Obama supporters, you are behaving like a PEST, all you do is buzz around dropping your mess, only to be swatted over and over again.

You have been shown and it has been proven beyond any doubt that US law REQUIRES BOTH native-birth in US, to US citizen parents to make an Article II "natural born Citizen" of the United States.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

~the ostrich analogy equivalent:
Post July 4th 1776;

1. All American "natural born citizens" were previously American native-born subjects. (All living things that fly have wings).

2. All alien-born American children were native-born subjects. (All Ostriches have wings.)

3. Therefore alien-born American children are natural born citizens.
(Therefore ostriches can fly.)

Children of all U.S. inhabitants are born citizens.
All natural born citizens are born citizens.

Also...

1. All living things that fly have wings. (All U.S. born children are born citizens.)

2. All birds have wings. (All natural born children are born citizens.)

3. All living things that fly are birds. (all born citizens are natural born citizens.)

ajtelles said...

Part 1 of 2

Two Parent Common Sense Original Intent vs. One Parent Theory...

Mario, at ObamaConspiracy, March 7, 2014 at 5:18 pm,
>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/03/apuzzo-reading-scotus-appeal-in-paige-case/

Dr. Conspiracy, whom I do not know, says,

>> “Ten courts … have rejected the theory that US Citizen parents are required, ….”

- - - - - - - - - -

Dr. Conspiracy is a voluble writer without being garrulous, so I wonder, Mario, in all of your communication with either Dr. Conspiracy or others, do you know if Dr. Conspiracy or any “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... 'one U.S. citizen parent is good 'nuf' Obirther has ever adduced explicit de jure sources such as the U.S. Constitution or Amendments of the U.S. Congress or Acts of the U.S. Congress or SCOTUS decisions that they try to use to define and defend the devoid of common sense theory that ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent is “required” for the child to be recognized as a 1787 'natural born Citizen” and the concomitant devoid of common sense theory that at least two (2) U.S. citizen parents are NOT “required” or necessary to produce a 1787 'natural born Citizen?'

Similar to the way in the following paragraphs that I define and defend the proposition that two U.S. citizen parents are implicitly “required” by original intent common sense, it would be enlightening if someday and somewhere Dr. Conspiracy could 'try' to explicitly or implicitly define and defend his 'one U.S. citizen parent is good 'nuf' “theory.” It would clarify his reasoning process and it would help those he wants to influence to accept BHO's Article II eligibility to analyze his reasoning processes and his de facto or de jure conclusions.

Dr. Conspiracy's de facto theory that 'one U.S. citizen parent is good 'nuf' is nonsensical and NOT explicitly or implicitly de jure 'good 'nuf' for this non-lawyer.

Yes, the “ten courts” that Dr. Conspiracy mentions did make 'one U.S. citizen parent is good 'nuf' de facto statements, but their de facto statements do not have explicit de jure authority. I have never read of any courts that have adduced explicit de jure sources that define and defend Dr. Conspiracy's de facto “theory” that ONLY one male or ONLY one female U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for the child to be a 'natural born Citizen.'

The “one U.S. citizen parent is good 'nuf' theory is as nonsensical as saying that with 21st century in vitro fertilization, ONLY one unmarried female or male U.S. citizen parent was implied in 1787 America to be sufficient for the child to be a 'natural born Citizen,' and in 1787 America it did not matter if the female surrogate 'mother' or if the male donor 'father' was known or not known.

In 1787 America, the two ideas of one physical parent and one U.S. citizen parent, in this 'natural born Citizen' context, both ideas were NOT explicitly or implicitly affirmed by original birther John Jay in his July 25, 1787 'natural born Citizen' handwritten note to George Washington, in which Jay underlined the word 'born,' and the two ideas were also NOT affirmed by original birther George Washington at the 1787 Constitutional Convention where he was the presiding officer, where the positive law three word unit 'natural born Citizen' was adopted so that it could be ratified in 1788.

cont.

OriginalBirtherDocument

ajtelles said...

Part 2 of 2

Two Parent Common Sense Original Intent vs. One Parent Theory...

So the original intent common sense implication of the 1787 positive law words 'natural born' that describe natural birth, which is a natural law activity requiring to persons, and the 1787 positive law word 'Citizen' that describes a positive law declaration by a legislature about citizenship requiring two U.S. citizen parents of the 'natural born' child, is that the positive law three word unit 'natural born Citizen' is obviously describing two implied related ideas:

(1) “Natural born” is a reference to the explicit natural law 'natural birth' that is the result of the physical union of two persons which was, is, and forever will be, necessary to produce a physical 'natural born' child (unless there is a 21st century Article V convention of states to amend the constitution to codify in vitro fertilization and homosexual “parentage” claims).

(2) “Citizen” is a reference to the explicit positive law U.S. citizen status of BOTH parents that was, is, and forever will be, necessary to produce a positive law 'Citizen' child who is declared by the positive law of the legislature to be a child citizen who is ALSO a 'natural born Citizen.'

If Obirthers do not adduce explicit de jure support in their writings, then their silence is tacit admission and submission to the proposition that two U.S. citizen parents ARE “required” by implication and it was the implicit common sense original intent of the original birthers, and the implicit original intent of the original birthers trumps the implicit and devoid of common sense theory that ONLY one U.S. citizen parent is “required.”

Also, explicit de jure silence and only and always de facto statements by Dr. Conspiracy and other Obirthers is also a tacit admission that the 'one U.S. citizen parent is good 'nuf' “theory” is as nonsensical as saying that the physical union of at least two heterosexual persons are NOT “required” in 21st century America to produce a 'natural born Citizen' child because in vitro fertilization is now possible, even though the technology was not possible in 1787 America and obviously it was NOT explicitly articulated and obviously NOT implied in the 'natural born Citizen' positive law three word unit.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ajtelles,

Nothing the Obots over at Dr. Conspiracy say about a natural born citizen is correct.

The Framers used the natural born citizen clause to make sure future Presidents owed the nation allegiance, loyalty, and faith only to the United States from the moment of birth. This was natural allegiance which created from birth the highest duty owed to the nation. The fact that the obligation was owed just to the United States made the obligation to the nation so strong, for the duty was not diluted by any allegiance to any foreign power. The highest degree of this obligation, being an undivided and absolute obligation, could only be achieved if a child was born not only in the United States, but also to two U.S. citizen parents. Under such birth circumstances, the child was born with unity of allegiance and citizenship to the United States, thereby cutting off any allegiance to any foreign power. Should the child be born either out of the country to one or two U.S. citizen parents or in the country to one or two alien parents, the child would acquire from the foreign place of birth (via jus soli) and inherit from one or two alien parents (via jus sanguinis) an allegiance to a foreign power and thereby dilute and weaken the obligation which had to be absolute. Additionally, even assuming that spouses could have their own separate citizenships, being born to one alien parent produced the same result as being born to two such parents, for the child inherited a complete foreign power whether he inherited from one or two alien parents. So, given this need for the highest obligation and duty to the nation, especially from the Commander in Chief of the Military, the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers saw the definition of a natural born citizen has requiring not only birth in the country, but also birth to two U.S. citizen parents.

Additionally, during the Founding and until the passage of the Cable Act of 1922, wives followed the citizenship of their husbands, like children followed the citizenship of their parents until Wong Kim Ark’s 1898 interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. This means that parents were either both citizens or aliens. The oneness of citizenship of spouses is confirmed by, among many sources, Sir Edward Coke, John Locke, Emer de Vattel, William Blackstone, Scott v. Sandford (1857), Minor v. Happersett (1875), and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898).

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ajtelles,

Here is another one for you which I am sure you will find compelling:

All natural born citizens are children born in the country to parents who were its citizens (Vattel).

All children born in the country to parents who were its citizens are natural born citizens (Minor).

All children not born in the country to parents who were its citizens are alien born and in need of naturalization (Minor).

Obama and Cruz were not born in the country to parents who were its citizens (conceded fact and not in dispute).

Therefore, Obama and Cruz are not natural born citizens (inescapable conclusion).

MichaelN said...

Stranger said ......

"Children of all U.S. inhabitants are born citizens."

WRONG AGAIN!......... ad nauseam.

To be a born "citizen of the United States" to an inhabitant of the US, one must be native-born to an inhabitant of the US who is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".

There are TWO essential qualities required to make a native-born "citizen of the United States". (see 14th Amendment)

One quality is native-birth, and the other is a degree of parental allegiance.

ajtelles said...

”Only One” Unity of Allegiance …

Page 1 of 1

Mario, earlier today, March 12, 2014 at 11:36 AM I made a play on the word “only” in your earlier post that I would like to repeat to add to your “highest degree” and “unity of allegiance” comment, also today, March 12, 2014 at 9:23 PM. The parenthetical [] words and bold emphases are mine.

First my previous quote describing your “only” comment.

Mario, the “only” last sentence of the “only” last paragraph on “only” March 12, 2014 at 12:25 AM nailed the “only” common sense original intent of the original birthers accurately, adequately, necessarily, sufficiently.

>> "The only way
>> that a child can be born the citizen of only one nation
>> is to be born [only] in the nation of his parents
>> to [only] those parents who are both citizens
>> of [only] that nation
>> at the time
>> of the child’s birth."

On March 12, 2014 at 9:23 PM you wrote,
[…]
>> The fact that the obligation was owed
>> just [only] to the United States
>> made the obligation [only] to the nation so strong,
>> for the duty was not diluted by any allegiance to any foreign power.

>> The highest degree of this obligation,
>> being an undivided and absolute obligation,
>> could only be achieved
>> if a child was born
>> not only in the United States,
>> but also [only] to two U.S. citizen parents.
[…]
>> So, given this need for the highest obligation and duty [only] to the nation,
>> especially from the Commander in Chief of the Military,
>> the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers
>> saw the definition of a natural born citizen …
>> requiring not only birth in the country,
>> but also birth to two U.S. citizen parents.

>> Additionally, during the Founding and until the passage of the Cable Act of 1922,
>> wives followed the citizenship of their husbands,
>> like children followed the citizenship of their parents
>> until Wong Kim Ark’s 1898 interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment.

>> This means that parents were either both citizens or aliens.
>> The oneness of citizenship of spouses is confirmed by, among many sources,
_Sir Edward Coke,
_John Locke,
_Emer de Vattel,
_William Blackstone,
_Scott v. Sandford (1857),
_Minor v. Happersett (1875), and
_U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898).

- - - - - - - - - -

OriginalBirtherDocument

ajtelles said...

”Only One” Unity of Allegiance …

Page 2 of 2

Mario, here is my 'only one' version of a Dr. Seuss' Green Eggs and Ham teaching aid, made comprehensible for fifth to seventh graders, the perennial age group to aim for to make a subject easily understood by all age groups.

There is “only one” point to make to clarify the “only one” unity of allegiance play on words and the 1787 implication of the three word unit 'natural born Citizen' and it's perpetual significance from generation to generation, election to election, POTUS to POTUS

There is
'only' ONE way
for a U.S. 'citizen'
to be a U.S. 'natural born Citizen'
of 'only' the U.S. nation.

(1) At birth the child must touch down 'only' on the U.S. soil of the U.S. 'nation.'

(2) At birth the child must be the product of the physical union of two U.S. citizen parents.

If the child is the product of the physical union of 'only' one U.S. citizen parent and 'also' one foreign citizen parent, the child is NOT the product of the union of 'only' two U.S. citizen parents of 'only' one U.S. nation.

The “only one way” is so clear that 'only' a true believer “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirther will pout and shout nonsense about 'only' one U.S. citizen parent is good 'nuf, aka “required,” for a child born on U.S. soil to be a 'natural born Citizne.'

Mario, there really is “only” one way for a U.S. 'citizen' to be a 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 U.S. 'natural born Citizen” of “only one” U.S. nation.

There is 'only one' way and it requires the baby touching down on the soil of the nation, aka birth, and it requires two U.S. citizen parents of 'only one' U.S. nation to physically produce a U.S. citizen of 'only one' U.S. nation, aka a U.S. 'natural born Citizen.'

There is 'only one' way.
There is not more than one way.

- - - - - - - - - -

PS. Mario, dittos to your March 12, 2014 at 9:39 PM comment about the “inescapable conclusion” about BHObama and my home state and favorite senator, Texas Senator Ted Cruz.

“Therefore, Obama and Cruz are not natural born citizens (inescapable conclusion).

PPS. It would be nice if somebody were to show Sen. Cruz your H. Brooke Paige v. Vermont Supreme Court ON PETITION FOR A WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE VERMONT SUPREME COURT that has been presented the SCOTUS.
>> http://api.ning.com/files/8KGb8vxx0YkHCICqENgDMDaO4Gbk1LIerQ1vLcqUqhxdfVXHlp*ZRF76OAhPmqeYaxdhLswi5JDS0aJfAaECwIMpLPNieziy/Petition_to_SCOTUS______H._Brooke_Paige_v._State_of_Vermont_et_al

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Unknown said...

A child of alien and a citizen is a citizen/ dual citizen but that is not good enough for the obots. Lets assume barry actually is the son of a alien and a citizen, him and cruz could still legitimately serve in Congress and do everything a NBC can do except be VP or CiC. Now that no one except a NBC is allowed to be CiC it is obviously more than just being born here to aliens/ a citizen or being born outside of the US to citizens or a citizen. Being a citizen only is clearly not enough. It is insanity to think the Founders wanted to hand the keys of US military to someone who was born a foreign citizen

Unknown said...

Art, you do not think cruz knows him and barry are not natural born citizens? I would say there is a 100% chance that they both know they are not NBCs. Cruz must be aware of the forgerys and fake social too yets says nothing like every other coward in Congress

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

I recently cut through all of the obamunist crap and exposed the foundation of their beliefs about eligibility, expounding on a fact that we've all been distracted from for too long, and that is that their belief is NOT that one American parent is sufficient to make a natural born citizen but that NO citizen parents are needed at all! They believe in pure jus soli makes a natural born citizen out of those born of pure aliens.

They base their delusion on the bastardization of English law that took place in the Calvin case when Scotsmen were declared to be natural born subjects, ...not of England but of the King who ruled both kingdoms.

After that, the terminology was corrupted in order to circumvent English law which forbid foreigners from inheriting English property.
Foreigners were declared to be natural born subjects and therefore qualified to inherit even though they were not natural born Englishmen.
By that linguistic diversion, all focus was placed on one's relationship to the king instead of one's origin and relationship to the nation of England.

Their bottom line of defense is in arguing that a natural born subject is equivalent to a natural born citizen, and a natural born subject was anyone who was born subject to the King via birth within his domain, even though born of foreigners,... pure jus soli. No English parent needed, -not one, not two, none.

That's what they believe and are certain is fundamental American law. Reason has no room in it, and that's why they always resort to appealing to the status quo view held by government people, -especially lawyers and judges.

How Obama Jr. Makes Hitler Jr. Eligible

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/05/how-obama-jr-makes-hitler-jr-eligible/

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Obot “Keith March” boldly proclaims at Dr. Conspiracy’s:

“That 1898 definition makes it abundantly clear that precisely ZERO citizen parents are required to make the child a natural born citizen.”

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/03/apuzzo-reading-scotus-appeal-in-paige-case/

The Obots are really smart, or at least they think they are. First, dunstvangeet tells us that one country club member parent is sufficient for kids to go swimming in the club pool. And now we have Obot Keith March telling us that no parent members are needed.

The Obots figure that if Vattel applies in defining a natural born citizen, they better say that birth in the country to only one citizen parent is needed to satisfy Vattel’s definition. Then they figure it is better to say that he has no application, because if he does, you might need birth in the country (bad for Cruz) and also at least birth to one U.S. citizen parent (bad for Rubio, Jindal, and Haley) or two U.S. citizen parents (bad for Obama). I mention these Republican presidential contenders not to suggest that the Obots really care for them. Rather, they make like they support their presidential eligibility only to cover for Obama’s lack of eligibility. The Obots will never admit anyone is not eligible to be President. That way they do not have to explain why that person is not eligible and defend Obama’s circumstances.

The Obots are running so scared that they are even compelled to argue that the Founders and early presidents were also natural born citizens when they could not possibly be.

The Obot are in a box out of which they cannot escape. History, law, reason and logic destroys them. Only politics can save them.

MichaelN said...

What "common law" was SCOTUS referring to in the Minor v Happersett case?

Why would the SCOTUS in the MvH case recognize doubts as unsolved, where it was doubted that native-birth to alien parents made a citizen at all?

Kev?

Unknown?

Other cockroaches?

ajtelles said...

Sen. Ted Cruz...

Leo, in response to your question to me on March 13, 2014 at 1:43 AM about whether or not Sen. Cruz knows that he is not an nbC, here is a quote from National Review Online on May 1, 2013 –

National Review Online -
>> http://www.nationalreview.com/article/347052/cruz-2016

>> “Cruz isn’t worried that his birth certificate will be a problem.

>> “Though he was born in Canada, he and his advisers are confident
that they could win any legal battle over his eligibility.

>> “Cruz’s mother was a U.S. citizen when he was born, and he considers himself to be a natural-born citizen.”

- - - - - - - - - -

Leo, a question for Sen. Cruz and any other POTUS aspirant that should be asked is in 2 parts.

1 - What "legal battle" is necessary for a 1787 Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 "citizen" who WAS born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents, aka a U.S. citizen who IS a 'natural born Citizen?'

2 - What "legal battle" is necessary for a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act "citizen" (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g)) who was NOT born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents, aka a U.S. citizen, sure, but a citizen who IS NOT a 'natural born Citizen?'

Advisers to Senator Cruz, those are simple questions, and the answer, "NO legal battle is necessary," costs nada, zip, zero $0 dollars to litigate.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

ajtelles said.."1952 Immigration and Nationality Act "citizen" (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g))[quote:"...of parents, one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States"] who was NOT born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents, aka a U.S. citizen, sure, but a citizen who IS NOT a 'natural born Citizen?'

What's with the straw-man assertion? paragraph g is not about a child with American parents, so why did you argue that he cannot be nbc? Not even the obots argue against that?

Why didn't you reference paragraph(c)?

"(c) a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person;"

Such children are natural born Americans who the 1790 Nat Act sought to protect from the erroneous and rejected British jus soli nationality view.

~Adviso: I've blown the lid off the issue of eligibility of foreign-born Americans in the exposition just made available online; it explores the unaddressed implications of the revived nativist doctrine, probably the same one that Madison label "visionary principles" of citizenship.

Foreign-born Presidents & the Native-birth Heresy at obama--nation.com -six pages.

If you are opposed to having your eyes opened to understanding that challenges your consensus birther beliefs, then it is not for you. If you seek the truth whatever it might be, you will find it highly enlightening.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

Of course we know that the common law to which Minor referred did not have its source in the English common law. Rather, it had its source in the law of nations.
Here is Ex parte Reynolds, decided after Minor, explaining how the law of nations could become part of our national common law.

In Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas.582 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879) (No. 11,719), the court said:

“Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”
Id. at 585, (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).

The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor explained that this is the definition of a “natural born citizen” that the Framers used when they adopted the Constitution. It said that definition was found in the “common-law” the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they adopted the Constitution. That definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This definition became upon the ratification of the Constitution part of the supreme law of the land, subject to change only by constitutional amendment.

Congress had a chance to amend this definition with the Fourteenth Amendment. It chose not to change it, rather only defining who shall be “citizens of the United States” at birth. Both Minor and Wong Kim Ark confirmed that the Fourteenth Amendment did not amend the definition of a natural born citizen, saying that the Fourteenth Amendment did not define the clause.

What is all telling about Ex parte Reynolds is that it ties the definition of a natural born citizen which Minor confirmed in 1875 to the law of nations and Vattel.

So, today the definition of a natural born citizen, as existing in the law of nations and then as adopted into our national common law, still stands as confirmed by both Minor and Wong Kim Ark. That definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

ajtelles said...

Page 1 of 1

a.r.nash, today March 13, 2014 at 8:03 PM

You said,

>> “ajtelles said.. "1952 Immigration and Nationality Act "citizen" (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g))
>> [quote:"...of parents, one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States"]
>> who was NOT born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents, aka a U.S. citizen, sure,
>> but a citizen who IS NOT a 'natural born Citizen?'

>> “What's with the straw-man assertion?
>> “paragraph g is not about a child with American parents,
>>so why did you argue that he cannot be nbc?
>> Not even the obots argue against that?”
>> Why didn't you reference paragraph(c)?
- - - - - - - - - -
a.r.nash, you accurately quote clause (g) and accurately reference my words, then you ask about what looks like to you to be a “straw-man assertion”, and then you ask about paragraph (c). It looks like you have not understood the purpose of including only clause (g) and not clause (c).
You are correct that “paragraph g is not about a child with American parents,” but (g) IS about a child born on foreign soil with ONLY one U.S. citizen parent, which is what Sen. Cruz is by his own public admission.
Remember, the header on my comment is “Sen. Ted Cruz,” and the response to Leo is only about Sen. Cruz's eligibility “legal battle” that Sen. Cruz's advisers said they were confident could be won in court.
- - - - - - - - - -

>> “Leo, a question for Sen. Cruz and any other POTUS aspirant that should be asked is in 2 parts.

>> “1 - What "legal battle" is necessary for a 1787 Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 "citizen" who WAS born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents, aka a U.S. citizen who IS a 'natural born Citizen?'

>> “2 - What "legal battle" is necessary for a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act "citizen" (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g)) who was NOT born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents, aka a U.S. citizen, sure, but a citizen who IS NOT a 'natural born Citizen?'

- - - - - - - - - -

a.r.nash, the point is that Sen. Cruz was NOT born on U.S. soil with “two” U.S. Citizen parents.

Since Sen. Cruz was born a U.S. citizen with ONLY one U.S. citizen parent, the question to Senator Cruz's advisers requires only one answer to both questions which is, “NO legal battle is necessary”--for an Article II Section 1 Clause 5 “natural born Citizen” OR for a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act “citizen.”

That is why I did not mention clause (c) and simply asked the advisers to Senator Cruz a two-part question which requires only one answer.

"NO legal battle is necessary," and since there is no litigation, it costs nada, zip, zero $0 dollars in a “legal battle” that does NOT need to happen.

- - - - - - - - - -

cont.
OriginalBirtherDocument

ajtelles said...

Page 2 of 2

It will not happen if some day soon Sen. Cruz steps up to a gaggle of mikes in a 'breaking bulletin' news conference and enters the history books with Gov. Sarah Palin as a statesman who, when he speaks, the whole world will listen because he relinquished 'possible' pursuit of the presidency in order to protect the Union, and says that since he was NOT born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents, he is not a 'natural born Citizen' and NOT “... eligible to the Office of the President,” AND he will continue to speak about the U.S. Constitution to protect it from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic.

Well that's my independent public request for my Texas Sen. Ted Cruz to “do the right thing” in 2014 and then to go on to speak with others, such as Mark Levin, Robert Natelson, Michael Farris, and others, in support of a grassroots Article V “convention of states” to amend the constitution, and one amendment to consider is to clarify the original intent of 'natural born Citizen' that was adopted and ratified by the original birthers in 1787.

If Sen. Cruz were to endorse an Article V “convention of states” as a 'free' man, 'free' to speak about Article II Section 1 Clause 5 and the original intent of a 'natural born Citizen, yes, the whole nation would indeed listen to America's newest statesman BECAUSE he would have given up SO MUCH for SO MANY of “WE the People.”

IF, and I know it is a BIG IF given the aspirations of politicians, if my Texas Senator Cruz were to do a “WAKE UP America” news conference, well, the “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirhters would go nuts with “tingle up the leg” incoherence because 'OUR GUY' did the 'RIGHT' thing while they continue to defend THEIR GUY, who they know in the innermost hearts when the lay their heads on their pillows, THEIR GUY did the 'WRONG' thing, and has spent more than $3.5 million dollars to obfuscate about his heritage, lineage, nativity and how he managed to 'OCCUPY' America and the oval office without Article II Section 1 Clause 5 authority.

So, a.r.nash, I wonder what the Honorable Senator from Texas Ted Cruz will do?

1 - What legal battle is necessary for a citizen who IS a natural born Citizen?
2 - What legal battle is necessary for a citizen who is NOT a natural born Citizen?
The answer is the same for both questions, “NO legal battle is necessary.”

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"Your analysis of the meaning of an Article II 'natural born citizen' has contained and continues to contain various errors."

Your analysis is without merit according to courts from whom you sought rulings.


Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"One of your fundamental errors is believing without demonstrating that someone who is born in the United States and 'subject to its jurisdiction,' who the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress define as a 'citizen of the United States' at birth, or born out of the United States and any of its outlying possessions to one or two U.S. citizen parents, who Acts of Congress also define as a 'citizen of the United States' at birth, are also necessarily 'natural born citizens,' simply because, as you have clearly demonstrated through your Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush examples, a 'natural born citizen' is also a 'citizen of the United States' at birth under these post-Constitution adoption laws or by believing without demonstrating that all born citizens are 'natural born citizens.'"

Mr. Apuzzo, the reasoning for the different cases has been explained to you over and over. Not once did I, nor the Congressional Research Service, take the "simply because" position you put us on.

As I've also explained, the eligibility of native-born children of foreigners, and that of foreign-born children of citizens, have significantly different legal histories. The former has been clear and settle for a long time, while the latter is a relatively recent consensus of the American legal community.


Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"Finally, your latest and greatest error, which leads you to make all the errors that I have listed above, is in not feeling bound by the Framers’ intent as gleaned from the original public meaning of a 'natural born citizen,' which Minor informs may be found in the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution, which Minor also explained defined a 'natural born citizen' as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth."

Wrong. I don't feel bound by your fabrication of the Framer's intent. Neither of us can cite the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers defining "natural born citizen". Nevertheless, the matter is pretty well settled, and for the native-born is entirely settled. All you have is invincible ignorance. You fail to learn even from your own experience. Telling part of Minor backwards and closing your eyes to the rest will not change reality.

Wong, not Minor, controls, on the eligibility of the native-born such as Obama. You have tried to refute critical points in Wong on the basis that they disagree with previous holdings or were insufficiently supported. That is incompetence, counselor. Obama is President under the law as it is, not necessarily as you think it once was or ought to be.

Unknown said...

Ajtelles wrote:
"Maybe Unknown a/k/a NotLinda should also read Rob Natelsons book The Original Constitution: What It Actually Said and Meant, in which Natelson takes the historical perspective."

Yes, maybe I should. Mr. Apuzzo, our host, has cited it in articles on this blog. I currently don't have time to read it all, so I just looked for any clear statement on the meaning of "natural born citizen" in Professor Natelson's book. Found one.

"Most importantly, the President and Vice President had to be natural-born citizens or citizens at the time of ratification. We know exactly what the Founders meant by the phrase 'natural born citizen' because they adapted it from the English legal term, 'natural born subject,' which in Britain defined who could serve in Parliament or the Privy Council. Essentially, a natural born citizen was one who met either one of two requirements. First, a person qualified if born in within the United States or within American territory, even if the person's parents were aliens. Alternately, an individual qualified even if born outside the country if the individual's father was an American citizen not then engaged in traitorous or felonious activities."
-- Robert G. Natelson, /The Original Constitution: What it Actually Said and Meant/, Second Edition, May 17, 2010, page 127.

Mr. Apuzz and Ajtelles, thanks for the reference. I've not actually read the book, but for now it seems as though you chose an authority that flat-out refutes your central theory. Have you noticed how often that happens to you? Have you any clue as to why?

Unknown said...

Mario said: "The Obots are running scared."

We're so scared that I'm inviting you to address us as a group. We're having a meetup of more than 35 Obots from Fogbow in Philadelphia on May 16-18. That's only an hour or so from Jamesburg, where you live. I'll reimburse you for turnpike tolls and buy your dinner, and you can explain to us in person all about how terribly scared we are. Email me at foggy@thefogbow.com and we can work out all the details.

Unless you're too scared to show up, of course.

Bill Bryan
Raleigh, NC

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"To be a born "citizen of the United States" to an inhabitant of the US, one must be native-born to an inhabitant of the US who is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".
There are TWO essential qualities required to make a native-born "citizen of the United States". (see 14th Amendment)

One quality is native-birth, and the other is a degree of parental allegiance."


You and I know that but the government, -as I've repeated proclaimed, does NOT. It follows the policy instituted by Attorney General John Griggs in 1898 which only acknowledges birth on U.S. soil. By that false policy, Obama is a U.S. citizen. Without it he is not a U.S. citizen by the 14th Amendment.
~~~
Art, I see the context of your questions, which I had glossed over.

Unknown wrote: "the eligibility of native-born children of foreigners, and that of foreign-born children of citizens, have significantly different legal histories.

The former has been clear and settle for a long time, while the latter is a relatively recent consensus of the American legal community."

If that were true then I, we, would have read all about it, and yet all that exists is opinions of men of old who had a warped view of American principles; views I've completely exposed in recent expositions, and a big one to come.

As for the "recent consensus" crap regarding foreign-born Americans, it was the consensus view in 1790 when the naturalization act was written, the one which declared for all of the ignorant, that American children born abroad are eligible via constitutional Art. II, Sec. I language to serve as President.

Your view of history is pathetically inaccurate. Read and learn from today's newest exposition: FOREIGN-BORN PRESIDENTS AND THE NATIVE-BIRTH HERESY

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/03/13/foreign-born-presidents-and-native-birth-heresy/

And while there, check-out the hottest new birther exposition online: WHY OBAMA'S MOTHER NEEDED A FAKE DIVORCE

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown claimed: We know exactly what the Founders meant by the phrase 'natural born citizen' because they adapted it from the English legal term, 'natural born subject,'

Well! That settles it then. Or maybe it's settled after you and Mario answer my question (which destroys both of your delusional concepts): "Why did John Jay underline the word "born"?

And just for good measure I throw in a second one equally devastating: "Why did the very first Congress of the United States proclaim that American children born abroad are natural born citizens if they are defined by native-birth?"

Why in the world would the first Congress have thought that they could completely ignore the Constitution that they had help write if that proclamation was in fact an exercise of authority that none of them thought they possessed?

How could the founders and framers have limited Congress so explicitly and then turn around and ignore those precious limitations by "making natural born citizens" by their own non-existent unconstitutional authority?

If you cannot answer those questions, then you should allow into your programmed mind the possibility that everything you believe is false. The whole Matrix of you status quo world is an invented reality and not the true reality. But you and Mario are cut from the same sort of dogmatic cloth. No light from outside shines in.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

There is no way in nature (reason), history, policy, law, and logic that you can shake the truth of what I have written. The only thing that you can do is just throw out here and there little silly, trite comments that do not address the substance of anything that I demonstrate regarding the original and continuing meaning of a natural born citizen, and to appeal to the shallow and unsupported decisions of some lower courts.

Face reality, Unknown. Yours is the losing argument from all points of view that are not purely politically based.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

You keep asking why John Jay in his famous letter of July 25, 1787to then-General George Washington underlined the word “born.” People like Unknown, closing their eyes to what Jay actually wrote (he wrote “natural born citizen” and tied it to the qualification to be the commander of the military), argue that since he underlined the word “born,” any born citizen qualifies as a natural born citizen. You take a position that is not consistent with your thesis on what is a natural born citizen. You agree with Unknown that by underlying the word “born,” Jay meant to communicate that a born citizen was eligible to be Commander and therefore President. But then you take the inconsistent position that children born in the United States to one or two alien parents, who are also born citizens under the 14th Amendment and 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a), are not natural born citizens. So as you do so well, you simply argue in contradiction.

So, if both you and people like Unknown are wrong, what is the correct answer? The first thing that we have to do when interpreting Jay’s text is to analyze what Jay wrote in its full context, and not just focus on his underlined word “born.” Jay wrote “natural born citizen,” not “natural-born subject” or born citizen. Not only did he write natural born citizen, but he also tied that birth status to the qualifications for one to be the chief military commander, which is the last and greatest line of defense for the survival and preservation of a nation. Hence, the clause natural born citizen has to have an allegiance, faith, and loyalty component to it which is critical to the survival and preservation of a nation, for that is what a chief military commander is expected to have.

Writing “natural born citizen” conveys that the person is a natural born citizen, not a law born citizen. Jay wrote “natural born citizen” and underlined the word “born” to convey that, first, the chief military commander would have to be a “citizen.” Second, and more importantly, that citizen would not only be a “born” citizen (required to be a born citizen and hence his underlining of the word “born” for emphasis), but also a born citizen by nature (reason which withstood the test of time and therefore long accepted by the law of nations) and not by positive or municipal law. Hence, he included the necessary qualifier, “natural” and added it to qualify the words, “born citizen.”

Jay was, like his Founding contemporaries, a faithful student of the law of nature, the law of nations, and Emer de Vattel. When Jay wrote natural born citizen, he knew that natural law and the law of nations, as explained by Vattel in Sections 212 to 217 of The Law of Nations, defined that clause as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. For Jay, that was a born citizen by nature. In contrast, being well versed also with the English statutes and common law, he also knew that a born citizen by law which the English Parliament considered as a “natural-born subject,” or one judicially naturalized as such at birth and which Lord Coke in Calvin’s Case also called a “natural-born subject,” did not have to satisfy such a strict standard and rather could be made so by positive and municipal laws or by naturalization at birth which unavoidably created in such citizens dual and conflicting allegiances at birth. Jay and the Founders placed their trust in nature and nature’s God. It was only in the born citizen by nature, who was born in the United States, the nation of his natural parents at the time of the child’s birth, who therefore satisfied the law of nation’s definition of a natural born citizen, and therefore born with undivided allegiance, faith, and loyalty to the United States, in whom, like the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, Jay placed his trust to lead and preserve the nation in time of war.

So, Mr. Nash, now you have your answer. The question is what are you going to do with it?

ajtelles said...

Part 1

Thanks...

Unknown, today, March 14, 2014 at 3:23 AM, you said...

Ajtelles wrote:

>> ' "Maybe Unknown a/k/a NotLinda should also read Rob Natelsons book
>> The Original Constitution: What It Actually Said and Meant,
>> in which Natelson takes the historical perspective." '

>> “Yes, maybe I should.
>> “Mr. Apuzzo, our host, has cited it in articles on this blog.
>> “I currently don't have time to read it all,
>> “so I just looked for any clear statement on the meaning of
>> "natural born citizen" in Professor Natelson's book.
>> “Found one.

>> ' “Most importantly, the President and Vice President had to be natural-born citizens or citizens at the time of ratification.

>> We know exactly what the Founders meant by the phrase 'natural born citizen' because they adapted it from the English legal term, 'natural born subject,' which in Britain defined who could serve in Parliament or the Privy Council.

>> “Essentially, a natural born citizen was one who met either one of two requirements.

>> “First, a person qualified if born in within the United States or within American territory, even if the person's parents were aliens.

>> “Alternately, an individual qualified even if born outside the country if the individual's father was an American citizen not then engaged in traitorous or felonious activities."

>> “-- Robert G. Natelson, /The Original Constitution: What it Actually Said and Meant/, Second Edition, May 17, 2010, page 127.”

- - - - - - - - - -

Unknown, thanks for quoting Prof. Natelson's ONLY reference in ONLY one paragraph on page 127 of a 281 page book. I was going to post it myself, but you did it first.

I was going to post it because the ONLY reference offers an excellent opportunity to comment that the one paragraph and ONLY reference to 'natural born Citizen' is obviously deficient analysis of the historical presuppositions about 'natural born subject' in contrast to 'natural born Citizen' as understood by the 1787 original birthers who, before July 4, 1776, were 'natural born subjects' of Britain, so they obviously knew the difference between the two phrases and deliberately chose 'natural born Citizen' with original birther intent.

Unknown, as you know, Mario has written about why 'natural born subject' was replaced with 'natural born Citizen' by the original birthers, so if Rob Natelson ever reads this and is inclined to expand or append his book, or write an Article II book to bookend with Mark Levins' excellent Article V book, Liberty Amendments, he can easily communicate with Mario.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Page 2
“Original Constitution” is an excellent book about the “original constitution” and what it said and meant in 1787 America and still means in 2014 America, in which Natelson presents the original intent of the original birthers and analyzes the original meanings of the original words in their original context as understood by the 1787 U.S. citizens, the original birthers who were the 'normal' people who were just living their lives trying to “form a more perfect Union”, and the original birthers who were the original authors of the original words in the preamble and in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, 'natural born Citizen' and “... or a Citizen,' and who knew that 'natural born Citizen' was a permanent eligibility requirement and “...or a Citizen' was a temporary eligibility requirement because it applied ONLY until the last “... or a Citizen” died, as we know now, sometime in the 1800s.

Hopefully, in future editions of his book or in a separate book on Article II, Natelson will thoroughly explain why 'natural born Citizen' is contrasted with “... or a Citizen' in the SAME sentence, in the SAME Clause 5, and why the first three word unit was, is, and forever will be permanent and the second three word unit was, is, and forever will be temporary.

For an example of Natelson's ability to clarify an issue, check out “Qualifications On State Sovereignty: The Ban on Bills of Attainder” on page 56, where in four short paragraphs Natelson does an excellent analysis from the historical perspective of the original meaning of “attainder”:

- - - - - - - - - -

>> “At common law, attainder was the passing of sentence on a person convicted or outlawed for treason or felony. Such a person was 'attained' (i.e., 'tainted' or out of grace), in the eyes of the law. Originally, an attained person was punished by the punishment forfeiture of all his lands, by a sentence of death, and by 'corruption of blood,' Corruption of blood meant that the person could not inherit land from another, nor transmit it to his heirs or his spouse.

>> “However, these were not necessary punishments for attainder, for by the time of the Founding, Parliament had abolished corruption of blood for many attainted persons. An attainted person lost only a life estate in his land rather than a fee simple—meaning that when he died, his family would inherent his property.

>> “In the Anglo-American tradition, the legislature had a recognized prerogative to enact a law declaring a specific person to be guilty of a crime and imposing punishment. This was not thought to be an invasion of the judicial power. Thus, a legislature could adopt a bill of attainder to outlaw and attaint a person for treason or felony, or adopt a bill of pains and penalties for other purposes. However, the Constitution barred both Congress and the states from passing bills of attainder. The Fifth Amendment Due Process Clause subsequently prohibited Congress, although not the states, from passing bills of pains and penalties.

>> “Neither Congress nor the states were prevented from imposing attainder as part of a general criminal code applicable to everyone. Indeed, the Constitution explicitly recognized attainder as a permissible punishment for treason, so long as it did not include corruption of blood or forfeiture for longer than the 'Life of the Person attainted.' The clear inference was that Congress and the states could adopt general statutes mandating attainder, even with corruption of blood, as the punishment for other felonies.”

- - - - - - - - - -
cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 3
Unknown, before I had read Natelson's book, I had read through his entire blog ( http://constitution.i2i.org ) and then I did a 'natural born Citizen' word search and found ONLY two references, so I sent an email to his address which is on his i2i.org contact page, asking him if he could briefly clarify 'natural born Citizen' as he understood it from the historical and original intent perspective.


From:
Sent: Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 11:49 pm
To: Rob@i2i.org
An historical understanding request...

[…]

When I bought Mark Levin's book 'Liberty Amendments' the week it came out August 2013, I was not aware of your previous writing about Article V and ….

- - - - - - - - - -

In reading the 'original birther document' of the 'We the People' republic, the U.S. Constitution of course, I have always read it to understand the 'original intent' of the 'original birthers' who were the 'original writers' of the 'original words' that were adopted September 17, 1787 and ratified in 1788.

I did a search for 'natural born' on your site and found 2 dates that reference 'natural born.'

One was related to the language of the Constitution, April 28, 2011 - "What A Little-Known Colonial Pamphlet Tells Us About the Constitution,."

The other was related to BHObama's reluctance to reveal his birth certificate, the article on July 11, 2012 - "The importance of being “natural born”."

Since the time that you wrote your 2012 article, the long form computer generated birth certificate has been exposed as a fraud, an impeachable 'high crime and misdemeanor' offense since it was condoned by the POTUS who verified it's veracity since he alone could authorize that it be posted on the Federal Government web site.

I also listened to your May 5, 2011 podcast about 'natural born' that repeats your comments in your article.

Your July 11, 2012 article comments about 'natural born' were my sentiments before reading your post and they are still my sentiments today.

- - - - - - - - - -

The Request

I am looking forward to your future articles, plural 'cause one definitely will NOT be enough, about the 'original intent' meaning in Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 of the words 'natural born Citizen' and '... or a Citizen' to the 'original authors' AND the 'original ratifiers,' since some ratifiers who were also delegates agreed to the final draft of the 'original words' that were adopted September 17, 1787.

I'm not a constitutional scholar, a historian, a legal researcher, and, although I do not know everything about everything to know everything about any one thing, one thing I do know Mr. Natelson is that the 'original intent of the 'original birthers' who wrote the 'original words' of the 'original birther document' of America, the U.S. Constitution and specifically the Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 words 'natural born Citizen' is a perpetual 'original intent' to 'form a more perfect Union' for the 1787 'We the People' and the We the Posterity of 'We the People.'

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 4

The 'original intent' did NOT including a community organizer transforming himself into a 'commune organizer' and then “... transforming the United States of America” from an individualist republic to a collectivist commune.

Mr. Natelson, I've listened to Mark Levin for a few years and I am aware that he does not think seriously about looking into BHObams birth certification and nativity.

Fair enough, at least Mark has made a stand about the nativity of BHO, although he is still does not sound clear about the historicity of the distinction between a 1787 'natural born Citizen' and a 1790 Naturalization Act 'natural born Citizen' designation that was repealed by the 1795 Naturalization Act 'citizen' designation.

Since the national naturalization date of July 4, 1776, only 11 years had passed and no child who had been born on the free soil of America to two 1776 naturalized citizens had been born who was at least 35 years old with 14 years residence on U.S. soil, so the 'original birthers' chose a 1787 Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5 '... or a Citizen' to be the first U.S. president.

What I am asking you for, Mr. Natelson, is the historical perspective, not of a specious and fraudulent birth certificate, but about the original intent of the original words 'natural' and 'born' and 'citizen' as understood by the original birthers, writers AND ratifiers.

- - - - - - - - - -

My layman's 'original intent' perspective is that the definition of 'natural born Citizen' is found in the sixth word 'born' itself.

It's right there in plain sight.

"No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen …"

Since the child has to be born on the soil that is already there, to the 1787 original birthers, the natural law word ‘born’ in 'natural born Citizen' either meant ONLY born on 1787 U.S. soil, OR ‘born’ ALSO meant born on 1787 foreign soil.

Also, 'citizen' in 'natural born Citizen' either meant ONLY that BOTH parents must have been U. S. citizens AND married to each other BEFORE their child was ONLY born on U.S. soil, OR 'citizen' ALSO mean that one parent [can] be a U.S. citizen and one parent can be a foreign citizen who is NOT naturalized BEFORE the child is born.

In the 2nd Washington term, the 1790 Naturalization Act designation of 'natural born citizen' for a child born on foreign soil with two U.S. citizen parents was corrected, repealed and replaced in the 1795 Naturalization Act designation of 'citizen' for a child born on foreign soil with two U.S. citizen parents.

Since the 1795 Naturalization Act there have been other Naturalization Acts but none have said that birth on foreign soil makes a child a 'natural born citizen' because a 'naturalization' act can NOT make a positive law naturalized child into a natural law 'natural born' child who is a positive law 'citizen' child of two married U.S. citizen parents.

The historical perspective is super important because my favorite U.S. Senator from my home state Texas is Sen. Rafael Edward 'Ted' Cruz who was born on foreign soil with one U.S. citizen parent and one foreign citizen parent who was NOT naturalized before their baby was born.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 5
If both of Sen. Cruz's parents were U.S. citizens by a combination of natural birth for his mother and naturalization by his father, Sen. Cruz would still be ONLY a positive law naturalized 'citizen' but NOT a natural law 'natural born [citizen and a positive law] Citizen.'

However, Sen. Cruz would definitely be a U.S. 'citizen' according to the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act, Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401 (g)], which says that a child born on foreign soil to one U.S. citizen parent and one foreign citizen is a U.S. 'citizen' only.
As you have mentioned in various posts Mr. Natelson, your conclusions are what they are based on the original historical intent, not on current day wishes.

And because the truth has no agenda, I also have to acknowledge that if 'their guy' is not eligible, well, 'my guy' is also not "... eligible [to] the Office of the President.'

The puppet masters of the commune organizer managed to get one of their own to 'OCCUPY' the Oval Office, but originalist constitutionalists must NOT try to "OCCUPY' the Oval Office with transformative language.

Mr. Natelson, there's so much to say to bring clarity to the 'natural born Citizen' vs. 'Citizen' eligibility to the Oval Office, hopefully your historical clarity will help to strengthen the political spines of We the Posterity of 'We the People' to reform America from Commun(ity)-Organizer-in-Chief Obamas distorted historical vision of a collectivist commune BACK to a constiutional individualist republic.

Since Natelson is a busy lecturer and traveler and I am not, I accepted his response directing me to his book as appropriate.

-----Original Message-----
From: "Rob Natelson"
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2014 9:10am
To:
Subject: Re: An Historical Understanding Request - Natural Born Citizen

>> “I discuss the original understanding of "natural born citizen" in my book, The Original Constitution.
>> “Thanks for writing.
>> “Rob

>> Rob Natelson
>> * Senior Fellow in Constitutional Jurisprudence,
>> Independence Institute & Montana Policy Institute
>> * Professor of Law (ret.), The University of Montana
>> * biography & bibliography: http://constitution.i2i.org/about/
>> * Tel: 303-279-6536 ext. 114; cell: 303-549-6339

Before buying and reading his book, I sent another email explaining my “original intent” understanding of the 1787 “original birthers” and asked him for a brief 'elevator talk' historical analysis and critique of his “original birther” understanding.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 6
3 Necessities of Natural Born Citizens

Thanks for responding.

As you said in the response email below, you discuss the original understanding of "natural born citizen" in your book.

I recently found out about your book, 2nd edition, so I will purchase it. I really liked reading your i2i articles and I like the way you write in simple terms.

So, can you respond to this email and put your 'natural born Citizen' explanation in your own 'kitchen table talk' and 'public meaning' voice as if you are giving a short version explanation to a neighbor or friend who is visiting you who may not have much time for a long explanation and simply asks 'what does THAT mean' and puts the water glass down to listen?

Since all I have to go on is the observation that you have not written about 'natural born Citizen' on your i2i site other than the two references I mentioned in the previous email, I will laser focus this point.

How do you as a person, not an historical scholar, understand the public meaning of 'natural born Citizen' in the constitution? Also, only the 1787 original intent of the original birthers, aka writers, and the 1788 original public meaning of the original ratifiers and not as a reference to any contemporary POTUS or wannabe POTUS.

Do you mention in your book that 'natural born Citizen' is a 'term of art' that needs to be explained like Lawrence Solum does in his long and excellent 2008 Originalism research paper and his short 2008 Michigan Law Review article (see the urls below)?

Or, perhaps Mr. Natelson, do you explain in your book in simple terms such as I put it below that 'natural born Citizen' means at least these 3 short and simple to understand necessities:

(1) 'Natural Born' means that the birth of the child on U.S. SOIL is the natural law necessity (i.e. natural law 'birth', the touchdown, MUST be on the natural law 'soil' that is already there) before the positive law requirement of residence of 14 years on the same natural law U.S. soil by age 35 can apply.

(2) 'Citizen' means that the child must be born with two (2) U.S Citizen parents who are BOTH U.S. citizens, either by birth or naturalization, BEFORE the child is born on U.S. soil.

(3) The two citizen parents must be married to each other BEFORE the child is born so that their citizenship status is passed on to the child.

Marriage?

In 1787 and 1788 America? Yes, of course.

2 points:

1-Positive law:

In 1787 America the citizenship status of the husband determined the citizenship status of the wife, and the citizenship status of both parents married to each other BEFORE the child was born determined the citizenship status of the child.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 7
2-Natural law:

In 1787 America and only 4 years after the 1783 Treaty of Paris when single young men returned to the homes of their parents BEFORE they got married, DEFINITELY marriage BEFORE they gave birth to a 'natural born Citizen' who would be "...eligible to the Office of the President."

An excellent 'term of art' example of an explanation by a scholar is Lawrence Solum in his short 2008 article on the Michigan Law Review site

>> http://www.michiganlawreview.org/articles/originalism-and-the-natural-born-citizen-clause

and also in his 2008 Georgetown Univ. Law Center research paper of 176 pages:

>> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1120244

Semantic Originalism
Lawrence B. Solum
Georgetown University Law Center
November 22, 2008
Illinois Public Law Research Paper No. 07-24

"Abstract:
Semantic originalism is a theory of ...."

This theory affirms four theses:
(1) the fixation thesis
(2) the clause meaning thesis
(3) the contribution thesis
(4) the fidelity thesis

See the difference between how some excellent scholars write [originalism and public meaning], such as Lawrence Solum and Mario Apuzzo, Esq. (see url below), and my layman's 'public meaning' definition about 'natural born Citizen' and the obvious, well, at least to me, common sense 'public meaning' understanding by the original birthers who wrote the original words in 1787 and ratified the original words in 1788?

So, Mr. Natelson, I am simply asking for your short version response to this email about what is YOUR informed 'WE the People' public meaning understanding of the three word unit 'natural born Citizen?'

And can you put it as if you are talking with someone on an elevator, or explaining it over the backyard fence, or sitting at your kitchen table talking with a visitor who does not have much time to talk and who knows absolutely nothing about 'natural born Citizen' and "... or a Citizen" who asks with original intent innocence 'what does THAT mean' in simple terms.

PS. Mr. Natelson, I suppose that if you had already written abundantly on your i2i site about the original intent of 'natural born Citizen' I wouldn't need to write these two email to you for clarification.

Hopefully you will be giving more detail about 'natural born Citizen' on your i2i site in the future, so you do not need to respond to this email if you do not want to, although I would appreciate a short, even a very short response if it briefly explains what 'natural born Citizen' meant in 1787 and 1788 of 18th century America and what 'natural born Citizen' should still mean today in 2014 of 21st century America.

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 8
Here in El Paso, Texas it is a nice day to have a nice day, so, have a nice day where you are Mr. Natelson.

Thanks for reading and responding... if not, I will still buy your book,

Art

-----Original Message-----
From: "Rob Natelson"
Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 2:50pm
To:
Subject: Re: 3 Necessities of Natural Born Citizen

>> The reason I responded as I did is that the explanations are all laid out there. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to write a new essay on the subject: It's not something that can be explained in just a few words.
>> Thanks for writing.
>> Rob Natelson
>> * Senior Fellow in Constitutional Jurisprudence,
>> etc.

Unknown, in my third and last email to Rob Natelson, I asked for page references where he discusses 'natural born Citizen,' not knowing that there was ONLY one inadequate paragraph reference in the entire book.


From:
Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 4:24 pm
To: Rob Natelson

Good enough.

Instead of an essay or even a 'table talk' style monologue, do you have a quick 'elevator talk' definition of meaning that can be shared with others?

Something like the 3 necessities that I listed below, 'natural born' means this, 'citizen' means that and the 2 marriage related points about natural law and positive law.

Or, maybe, can you list the pages in your book where these kinds of 'what does THAT mean' questions are answered?

Thanks again,

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

This is the final response from Prof. Natelson -

>> Re: 3 Necessities of Natural Born Citizen
From: Rob NatelsonAdd to Contacts
Sent: Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 10:48 pm
To:
>> I forget the pages (and I don't have the book where I am now), but check the index or look under the chapter on the President. R.
>> Rob Natelson
>> * Senior Fellow in Constitutional Jurisprudence,
>> etc.

- - - - - - - -

cont.

ajtelles said...

Part 9
Unknown, there are two reasons that I include the 3 emails to and from Prof. Natelson here on Mario's forum.

1- Prof. Natelson's i2i.org blog does not accept comments which can be read by others, so I had to use his public http://constitution.i2i.org/ contact email.

2 - By making public our friendly email exchange, the intent is to encourage Prof. Natelson, and others, such as Mark Levin, to protect and defend ALL of the Constitution, including Article II Section 1 Clause 5 as well as the “WE the People … to form a more perfect Union” Article V.

Unknown, when I suggested that you and other Obirthers, for instance, those at “Cafe con Leche” and “Obama Conspiracy Theories” and “Fogbow,” should read Natelson's book, I was speaking about the original intent of his entire book, not just the one inadequate paragraph reference to a 'natural born subject' of a monarch, and his skim the surface conclusion that the jus soli implication had the same 'original intent' meaning of a jus soli AND a sus sanguinis implication of a 'natural born Citizen' who MUST come, and can ONLY come from ONLY the SAME soil AND from ONLY the SAME national lineage of “WE the People” and NOT from “WE the People” AND a monarch or a president or a dictator of another nation.

Well, Unknown, that's my 2 cents worth.

Unknown, can you or the other “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirthers honorably explicate BHO's more that $3.5 million dollar obfuscation about his lineage, heritage and nativity as thoroughly as Mario explicates 'natural born Citizen' when he responds to the shallow and nonsensical ridicule from some Obirthers?

Just wonderin,' Unknown, 'cause your integrity and the integrity of the other Obirthers is on the line if you try to defend the I-I-I-OCCUPY-America duplicity of Barack “you-can-keep-your-health-care” Obama.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ajtelles and Unknown,

Professor Robert G. Natelson does a good job explaining how to interpret the Constitution. That is for what I cited him. Regarding his position on the meaning of a “natural born citizen,” that is a much different story.

Natelson states:

“Most importantly, the President and Vice President had to be natural-born citizens or citizens at the time of ratification. We know exactly what the Founders meant by the phrase 'natural born citizen' because they adapted it from the English legal term, 'natural born subject,' which in Britain defined who could serve in Parliament or the Privy Council. Essentially, a natural born citizen was one who met either one of two requirements. First, a person qualified if born in within the United States or within American territory, even if the person's parents were aliens. Alternately, an individual qualified even if born outside the country if the individual's father was an American citizen not then engaged in traitorous or felonious activities.

These birth and residency requirements were designed better to assure that these officers were truly 'sympathetic' to those they were to govern, and to guard against the risk that they might be 'sympathetic' to a foreign power." (footnote omitted).

Robert G. Natelson, The Original Constitution: What it Actually Said and Meant 127 (2nd ed. 2010).

This is all he wrote in his entire book on the meaning of a natural born citizen. He said that we know exactly what the Founders meant by the natural born citizen clause. Yet, Unknown tells us that she does not know how the Framers defined a “natural born citizen.” But yet Professor Natelson tells us that we know “exactly” how they defined one. Maybe Unknown can explain this difference of opinions for us.

Natelson states without any analysis, explanation, or sources that we know exactly how the Framers defined a natural born citizen and that they “adapted it from the English legal term, ‘natural born subject.’” In coming to this conclusion, he surely does not go through the analysis that he recommends in the beginning of his book for determining the “Intent of the Makers” on clauses not defined in the Constitution.

Natelson wrote a useful book on interpreting the Constitution. But it is not credible on the definition of a natural born citizen. He could never make such a bare statement in a court of law, for it would be stricken and ruled inadmissible as a net opinion.

I am also suspicious about why Natelson would have stuck his neck out like he did without any explanation. If you will note, he wrote the book in 2010, which is after Obama was elected and when the debate on whether he is a “natural born citizen” was already raging.

ajtelles said...

"All he wrote"...

Mario, if he had been more responsive, I would have liked to have asked Rob Natelson about why he did not make his book historically topical with current events.

As you wrote today March 14, 2014 at 5:08 PM in the last paragraph -

>> "I am also suspicious about why Natelson would have stuck his neck out like he did without any explanation.

>> "If you will note, he wrote the book in 2010, which is after Obama was elected and when the debate on whether he is a “natural born citizen” was already raging."

I guess it might be for the same reason that BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers like

_Mark Levin, and
_Rush Limbaugh, and
_Sean Hannity, and
_Glenn Beck, and
_Sarah Palin, and
_Rich Lowry and his coterie of Editors at NationalReview.com, and
_HumanEvents.com, and
_Breitbart.com, and
_David Horowitz at FrontpageMag.com, and
_PJMedia.com, and
_DrudgeReport.com

and so many etc. do not touch Article II with a hot mike or a hot keyboard to simply define and defend what they believe is the original intent of the original birther when they wrote the words 'natural born Citizen.'

They have obviously stopped thinking for themselves about a part of the Constitution that that they do not understand, so anybody who does talk about the eternal relevance of 'natural born Citizen' is ridiculed as a "birther" because they for some reason have been humbled by their peers to consider “birther” to be a pejorative with which they do not want to be associated.

That's why I decided to take control of the language and the conversation and use “birther” is a sensible way to defend the original intent of the original birthers, and describe the "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama... acolytes as Obirthers as well as Obots.

The Obirthers are not defenders of the 'original birthers' because "THEIR GUY" is an obvious usurper and they know it.

It is amazing to me, in a social sense, how so many informed people, for example Glenn Beck, choose to believe the silly meme that because Hillary Clinton's 2008 campaign initiated the eligibility question about BHObama, then BHO must be a 'natural born Citizen' and so the BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers refuse to do any research to become fully informed about the truth that does not have an agenda.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "Jay wrote “natural born citizen” and underlined the word “born” to convey that, first, the chief military commander would have to be a “citizen.”"

That's ridiculous. Almost as absurd as saying the CiC had to be human. Of course he had to be a citizen. That was not even an issue in anyone's mind. All that was up for deciding was what kind of citizen.
Hamilton had suggested he must be born a citizen. Jay might have known of that suggestion.

"Second, and more importantly, that citizen would not only be a “born” citizen (...hence his underlining of the word “born” for emphasis), but also a born citizen by nature."

Doubly wrong. There was no disagreement about the choice that he must be a born citizen and not a naturalized citizen, but not all born citizens are born of American fathers since some States allowed jus soli citizenship for children of foreigners. How do you distinguish the two? American born citizen and alien born citizen?

It is not by underlining the word "born" because the ambiguity still remains.
The word "natural" eliminates the ambiguity. So why was it not underlined instead?
Your false logic cannot account for underlining the seemingly "wrong" word.

"It was only in the born citizen by nature, who was born in the United States,... who therefore satisfied the law of nation’s definition of a natural born citizen,"

You are off the deep end. The location of birth has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with any principle or law of nature. They are based solely on blood. Not borders. There are no borders in nature. There is only life, and the natural belonging that results from it.
Plus, no "definition" needed to be "satisfied". Explain why something needed to be satisfied in what Jay wrote. It's impossible.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Lawrence B. Solum wrote:

"The notion of a "natural born citizen" was likely a term of art... "
[or NOT! "LIKELY" CANNOT BE MORE NON-DEFINITIVE, AND INCORRECT. THOSE WORDS ARE NOT A TERM OF ART.]

"John McCain, born to American parents in the Panama Canal Zone in 1936, had citizenship conferred by statute in 1937, (but there is dispute as to whether the statute granted retroactive naturalization or whether it merely confirmed preexisting law under which McCain was an American citizen at birth.)"

His ignorance of fundamental American principles is an almost universal ignorance. McCain did NOT have citizenship conferred by statute because he was a citizen by automatic natural inheritance. All that such statutes do is to openly affirm that fact, to state it, not to create it.

Congress has no authority over the natural children of members of the nation. It only has authority to keep the naturalization statutes of the States uniform regarding their criteria for foreigners becoming Americans.
Anyone supporting any other authority is standing in opposition to the Constitution. And that means all of you.

Congress has and does declare the facts of citizenship in order that there be no doubt in the minds of those who administer the executive branch agencies of government dealing with those who are not natural citizens. They did that the for first time in 1790 when they protected the right of American sons born abroad to be President.
If Holy Scripture states that the sun is the center of our planetary system, does that statement make it so, or merely state a fact for the enlightenment of the uninformed?

I rest my case.

ajtelles said...

Ai ya yai...

Mario, on March 14, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Stranger/a.r.nash made a statement about a point that has never been an issue.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "It is not by underlining the word "born" because the ambiguity still remains.

>> "The word "natural" eliminates the ambiguity.

>> "So why was it not underlined instead?

>> "Your false logic cannot account for underlining the seemingly "wrong" word.

- - - - - - - - - -

I have no input, other than mentioning the conundrum that you have been presented with by a.r.nash.

Well, I can't resist.

The word "natural" was obviously NOT underlined because John Jay was making a point about "birth," and the word "natural" is implied as what we are to infer from the word "born" which is to be ONLY on the soil of the nation that was already there before the birth could happen there.

Well, Mario, at least that deals with part of the "...why was it not underlined instead" part of a.r.nash's critique of your comment.


Art
OriginalBirthrDocument

Unknown said...

Natelson cannot seem to read the plain language in 14th amendment which says only citizen of the US if born in US etc and needs no interpretation. I think all the hacks in msm have been told to shut up about what a NBC really is

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Art wrote:
" The word "natural" was obviously NOT underlined because John Jay was making a point about "birth," and the word "natural" is implied as what we are to infer from the word "born" "

That's not correct. Jay was making no point about birth but was making a point about origin and nature.

Natural citizens acquire their predestined nationality and political character from conception, not via exit from the womb. Their natural political DNA results from parents of the same nature (same citizenship).

If they have different natures than their child will be "born" as a hybrid, -a citizen of two nations, -like a hermaphrodite of nationality; two things instead of one; -with a Siamese twin political nature.

The moment and place of birth are irrelevant. All that matters is the nature resulting from the union of the parents. Is it uniform or is it dual?
Only those with a uniform American political nature are eligible to be President.

"Natural" is not "implied" by the use of "born" or else it would not have needed to be even included.

It was needed because of the ambiguity of "born citizen". It has no uniform meaning since some souls are born as citizens by the permission of law and not by nature.

Now for the last time, both "born citizen" and "natural citizen" are ambiguous terms until they are combined, and born is underlined.

In America, by the doctrine of citizenship equality, all citizens are natural citizens. The fiction of natural-ization turns foreigners into natural American citizens so all are equal and the same. That way there are no "alien citizens", no "foreigner citizens", no "citizenized citizens"

That fiction makes the term ambiguous since origin isn't conveyed by it. But adding "born" makes it clear that only those who are born as natural citizens can be President.

And that was why Jay underlined "born".

Jack said...

Help support Vogt and make this the end of "The Kenyan's" Reign of Error and Terror.

The case that really calls into question the facts surrounding the death of Loretta Fuddy, as well as so many other mysterious deaths surrounding "The Kenyan".

Douglas Vogt is petitioning the SCOTUS for a Writ of Certiorari in regards to "The Kenyan's" eligibility.

Vogt went back to the beginning and is using a law and tactic that has been on the books for centuries in the USA, Misprision of Felony. Gone are the jelloesque rules of civil claims.

Vogt has a fantastic tactic for forcing the courts to take action against this illegal alien POTUS and the coup that has put it in place. You can read all about Vogt's strategy here:
http://obamaforgerybook.com/

You can hear Vogt layout the facts of his case on this web-radio show here:
Vogt Interview starts at approximately 17:30
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/cfp-radio/2013/12/05/douglas-vogt-exposes-obama-forgery

Help Vogt, and by all means Help save the USA from this coup.


Fuddy death after being named in Vogt's case. She was the only one of 9 passnegers to die. You'd think the rest were severly injured and went to the hospital? You're worng.

"What are the chances? The mysterious death of Loretta Fuddy"
http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/archives/10343


Some links for a refresher.

"Background check on Barack Hussein Obama"
("The Kenyan" is a Muslim. His wedding ring is a Muslim saying.)
http://www.science.co.il/arab-israeli-conflict/articles/Anonymous-2008-10-27.php

“Long-Form Birth Certificate of Obama is a Forged Document”
http://www.science.co.il/Obama-Birth-Certificate.htm

"Details of the Obama forgery exposed"
http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/archives/10097


The Hawaii Birth Certificate Scams.

"[§338-17.8] Certificates for children born out of State."
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol06_ch0321-0344/HRS0338/HRS_0338-0017_0008.HTM
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/histatutes/1/19/338/I/338-17.8

"Who is Eligible to Apply for the Issuance of a Late Birth Certificate in Lieu of a Certificate of Hawaiian Birth?"
http://health.hawaii.gov/vitalrecords/late-birth-certificate-in-lieu-of-a-certificate-of-hawaiian-birth/


Facts stated by persons involved in Hawaiian Government.
"Hawaii Senior Elections Clerk: “Barack Obama Was Not Born In Hawaii”"
http://www.westernjournalism.com/hawaii-senior-elections-clerk-barack-obama-born-hawaii/

"Hawaii State Registrar does not verify authenticity of President Obama's birth certificate"
http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/freedom-press-not-free/2012/may/24/hawaii-state-registrar-onaka-birth-certificate-/

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote, to Adrian Nash:
"You and I continue to disagree on what is the correct definition of a 'natural born Citizen.'
I do not think you understand how constitutional law works."

I expect you are right about Mr. Nash, but have you forgotten how your own efforts turned out, Mr. Apuzzo?

Who does understand how constitutional law works? Looking at your archives, in this blog's very first article, dated December 20, 2008, you wrote:

"Some argue that the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898) is the final word on 'natural born Citizen' and that under that decision, as long as Obama was born on U.S. soil, he is a 'natural born Citizen.'"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

You have neither shaken off nor addressed the contradiction that lies in your interpretation of why Jay underlined the word “born” when he wrote “natural born citizen” in his famous 1787 letter to then-General George Washington. You claim that Jay underlined the word “born” to inform that being born a citizen was sufficient for one to be a natural born citizen. You cannot in one instance claim as you do that those born as citizens in the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment of 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a), who do not satisfy your definition of a natural born citizen, i.e., born in or out of the United States to a U.S. citizen father, are not natural born citizens, but children born as citizens out of the United States to a U.S. citizen father are. The contradiction lies in the fact that both of those classes of children are born citizens, but for you the native born ones are not natural born citizens while the foreign born ones are.

Additionally, you and others like Unknown also fail to understand that Jay’s mark was mere redundancy and surplusage, for Jay’s “natural born citizen” already said it all.

ajtelles said...


That's not correct...

a.r.nash, after accurately quoting me on March 15, 2014 at 1:01 AM you wrote -

>> "That's not correct.

>> Jay was making no point about birth but was making a point about origin and nature."

Well, yeah about "origin and nature", THAT is why Jay underlined "born" and NOT "natural" as you incorrectly infer from Jay's underlining of the word "born," because the "origin" of the birth was to be ONLY on U.S. soil and did NOT include ALSO being born on foreign soil, and the "nature" of the birth was to be from, aka "origin" from, ONLY two U.S. citizen parents, aka from parents by "natural" birth, who were married to each other before the child was born on the SAME U.S. soil that of which the parents were already citizens.


a.r.nash, then you close with -

>> "That fiction makes the term ambiguous since origin isn't conveyed by it.

>> "But adding 'born' makes it clear that only those who are born as natural citizens can be President.

>> "And that was why Jay underlined "born".


Huh?



Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Unknown said...

Ajtelles wrote:
"By making public our friendly email exchange [...]"

Please do not take anything I write as encouragement to publish private e-mails. Also note that the replies you've shown make clear his level of interest in your writing.

MichaelN said...

Per English law, a "natural born subject" was one born in England to a subject father, i.e. if the father was not a subject, then the child, although native-born could not be a subject.

Ergo: TWO conditions were required to be met to make an English "natural born subject".

Unlike the English, the US doesn't accept friendly aliens as US citizens (they must naturalize first), and given the SCOTUS opinion that "subject" and "citizen" are precisely analogous" (see Wong Kim Ark case), and given the Founders and Framers high degree of knowledge of English law and studious acceptance of the citizenship principles of Vattel, then a "natural born Citizen" of the United States, must be one who is native-born to a US citizen/subject father.



Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"I asked Unknown to give me an example of someone in recent times who was a 'citizen of the United States' and also eligible to be President. Notice that she gave us as examples Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush."

Yes. Challenge met.


Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"Notice that while she was very 'proud' to tell us what positions they held and that they were constitutionally eligible for those positions, she also did not tell us that they were natural born citizens."

False. On Feb 5, I wrote, "Reagan was a citizen of the united states and a natural born citizen at the same time. All natural born citizens are." On Feb 10, I wrote, "the Constitution requires every member of Congress to be 'a citizen of the United States', and many have also unarguably been natural-born citizens. A fine pre-1866 example would be Abraham Lincoln." I presented G.H.W. Bush as a similar example that is still eligible today, and though I did not use the term I made it clear from context.

Can I expect an appropriate retraction?


Mario Apuzzo Esq. wrote:
"People like Unknown attempt to mislead people with the 'citizen of the United States' angle, conflating and confounding them into natural born citizens, because that is all Obama (if born in the United States) and Cruz can be."

Wrong again. The reason, as I made abundantly clear, to note Reagan, Lincoln, and Bush, was that they are direct counter-examples to your ludicrous claim. The claim at issue, again, is the one you self-quoted in:

"You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."

Citing them was also an attempt to answer your laughable question, "how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?"

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario misquoted me: "You claim that Jay underlined the word “born” to inform that being born a citizen was sufficient for one to be a natural born citizen."

No, I claimed no such thing, and I've never used the word "sufficient". Your reading skills are inadequate when reading the writing of people who disagree with something you believe.

What you fail to include in your claim was the word at the heart of the issue which is "natural".

I said that in order to be a CiC one must be born as a natural citizen.

You gigantic viewpoint problem is that you can't conceive that natural citizenship even exists because if people are natural citizens then their national membership is via the law of nature and not via human-ascribed criteria, -which is the added UNnatural factor of the recognized and registered Earth location for where a mother delivered her baby.
Please tell us what species has that as a factor in determining natural membership among its own kind?
With your "term of art" falsehood, you can claim that natural citizenship doesn't exist and instead only human-defined citizenship exists. Man becomes God. Government becomes King. Nature and Nature's laws become squat.
Do your minor children belong to you or to the government? If they belong to you, then by what law? Government law or natural law?

Their relationship to their father's nation is by the same authority. Human or natural. Which is it? It cannot be both.
You have to choose whether or not Man is the property of government or government is the servant of Man.

If the latter, then natural relationships govern who and what we belong to.
I've just completed a new exposition titled THE AMERICAN SPARTANS vs The NEO-XERXISIANS.
Your philosophy of national membership sides with the Xerxisians and not the Freemen of Sparta. It's what the government decides. Natural bonds are not supreme.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

Art pontificated: "...Jay's underlining of the word "born," because the "origin" of the birth was to be ONLY on U.S. soil and did NOT include ALSO being born on foreign soil, and the "nature" of the birth was to be from "origin" from ONLY two U.S. citizen parents, aka from parents by "natural" birth,"

Huh? "by natural birth" as apposed to Caesarian section? "ONLY on U.S. soil and did NOT include ALSO being born on foreign soil"

Only in La-La land would someone propose that John Jay and the framers had even a single tiny little thought about Americans born somewhere else and needing to be forbidden because they would have some treasonous streak inbred into them by the magic of non-American soil.

Did you even read what I wrote? Apparently not because anything that makes natural sense makes little sense in your catechism of native-birth doctrine.

You embrace native-birth as a semi-sacred, almost religious dogma that imparts a superior spiritual quality which the framers rejected.

American unity was not racially based, ethnically based, religion based, soil based or gender based. It was unity of a Natural Rights philosophy derived from the laws of Nature and the Rights of Man.

They were brothers by what they believed about the nature of Man, not by where their mother delivered them. That criterion was resorted to only for the alien-born, -not the natural born children of Americans.
It's true that one's home country plays a major factor in allegiance, but it is not a factor in citizenship. Citizenship is passed from generation to generation by blood.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

The only thing you know how to do is tell us how someone misquoted you without telling us what your quote was and mix in with your rambling arguments, straw man arguments about natural law which in some cases no one contests.

You hide what your position in all that big mess. You present nothing but confusion. I have said this before and I will say it again. I believe that you are a false flag and running interference for the Obots.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of III

Seen that you persist in your deceitful game, let me get to the real stuff rather than your trivialities. Allow me to demonstrate again that you are wrong in everything that you say about whether Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens.

All natural born citizens are citizens. Not all citizens are natural born citizens. Now let us just borrow a part from natural born citizen and add it to citizen, but use the same logic. We get: all natural born citizens are born citizens. Not all born citizens are natural born citizens. In other words, being a citizen and a born citizen is necessary to be a natural born citizen, but it is not sufficient. The simple reason for that is twofold and interconnected. First, we still have to account for and give meaning to the qualifier “natural.” We cannot simply write words out of the Constitution when interpreting it. Second, while Congress has the constitutional power to make one a born citizen, it does not have such power to make one a natural born citizen. That is so because Congress in matters of citizenship only has the power to naturalize, which includes taking a person who is alien born and treating him or her through the fiction of law as if he or she were a citizen from the moment of birth. So, Congress can through its naturalization laws make one a born citizen, but it cannot under those laws make one a natural born citizen. This is the reason that in the Naturalization Act of 1790, the First Congress said that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens,” not that they in fact were, and why starting with the Third Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1795 and all that followed, Congress only defines citizens and not natural born citizens.

Our early Congress in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 confirmed for us who were the natural born citizens. In these acts, Congress naturalized qualifying adults who were born out of the United States to alien parents. As is confirmed by the James Madison Administration in the James McClure Citizenship Case of 1811, in these acts Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. It also naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents. In short, Congress naturalized all qualifying adults and children, except those who were born in the United States to citizen parents. Congress did not provide for their potential naturalization because, being natural born citizens, they did not need to be naturalized either at birth or after birth.

Apart from Founders like David Ramsay and St. George Tucker and U.S. Supreme Court cases like Inglis (1830) and Shanks (1830), which confirmed that the United States did not follow the English common law jus soli rule when defining its national citizenship, but rather adopted the jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the U.S. Supreme Court in The Venus (1814) (C.J. John Marshall concurring and using a previous English translation of Vattel) and Dred Scott (1857) (J. Daniel concurring), citing and quoting Vattel and Section 212 of The Law of Nations, defined a “natural born citizen” as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens. This definition was consistent with the naturalization acts of Congress.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

Undeniably, a constitutional amendment can change Article II’s original definition of a natural born citizen. The only chance so far to do that was with the Fourteenth Amendment which was passed to constitutionalize the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and thereby change the rule of Dred Scott that freed blacks could not be citizens because, being slaves, they were not part of the people who associated together to create the United States. But neither its text nor its intent demonstrates that the amendment changed the common law definition of a natural born citizen. So, the original common law definition of a natural born citizen continued.

Then in Minor v. Happersett (1875), the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court, without citing or quoting Vattel but undeniably paraphrasing him, and stating that the definition of the clause came from the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution, defined a natural born citizen the same way as Vattel, The Venus, and Dred Scott. It confirmed that the Fourteenth Amendment did not define a natural born citizen. Minor left open the question of whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was a born citizen (a “citizen of the United States”) under the Fourteenth Amendment. The fact that the Court sua sponte said that this question existed is solid evidence that the English common law jus soli rule, which made children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents but under his allegiance and obedience “natural-born subjects,” was not part of our national citizenship heritage.

The Fourteenth Amendment question left open by Minor finally reached the U.S. Supreme Court in 1898. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), being a Fourteenth Amendment case, only interpreted and applied that amendment and did not change Minor’s common law definition of a natural born citizen. On the contrary, Wong Kim Ark even cited and quoted Minor and its common law definition of a natural born citizen without any criticism. Chief Justice Fuller in dissent, joined by Justice Harlan, was not willing to find Wong a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment. He said that the English common law jus soli rule as a rule to define national citizenship did not survive the American Revolution. Regardless of what rule Wong Kim Ark applied to make Wong a born citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, it neither held that he was a natural born citizen nor did it change the definition of that clause. So, the original common law definition of a natural born citizen still prevailed, and with that definition never being changed by any subsequent development, it still prevails today.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

The problem for you is that you do not present Obama and Cruz as natural born citizens under the common law of which the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor spoke and which it said the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. Rather, you present Obama under laws that do not control on the question of who is a natural born citizen.
You present Obama under the Fourteenth Amendment and 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) and Cruz under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g). First, these laws did not exist when the Framers adopted the Constitution. Second, the Acts of Congress do not nor can they define a natural born citizen. Third, the Fourteenth Amendment could have done the job, but neither its text nor its intent helps you. Fourth, the very text of these laws does not declare Obama and Cruz to be natural born citizens (not to suggest that Congressional statutes could) nor is there any evidence that those laws were intended by their framers that they define a natural born citizen (again not to suggest that Acts of Congress could). Simply, these laws may make them born citizens, but they do not make them natural born citizens.

No one has ever contended that either Obama or Cruz satisfy the definition of a natural born citizen that was early confirmed by our U.S. Supreme Court and which Minor said existed at common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. Rather, the argument that you make is that they are both natural born citizens because Obama satisfies the Fourteenth Amendment as interpreted and applied by Wong Kim Ark and 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) and Cruz satisfies 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g). But your position and argument falls constitutionally short. Not satisfying the U.S. Supreme Court confirmed common law definition of a natural born citizen upon which the Framers relied, Obama (assuming he was born in the United States) and Cruz both satisfy only provisions of laws which define born citizens and not natural born citizens. These provisions and laws are missing a material element of being a natural born citizen. That element is “natural.” Missing the “natural” factor which is a critical component of a natural born citizen, these provisions and laws are not sufficient for Obama and Cruz to gain natural born citizen status thereunder. Since you, Obama, and Cruz place your total reliance upon these insufficient provisions and laws to prove Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens, you fail to demonstrate that they are natural born citizens. There not existing any other law upon which they can rely to show that they are natural born citizens, they simply are not natural born citizens.

So, Unknown, are you going to make a legal argument supported by relevant sources in reply to what I have just explained or are you just going to continue to tell us about the courts that I chose and to repeat your red herring and straw man argument that some “citizens of the United States,” in whose category neither Obama and Cruz fall, are also “natural born citizens?”

MichaelN said...

A born citizen is a 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States" who is not a naturalized alien.

i.e. a person who is born in the US AND "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"; such a person is recognized as a "citizen of the United States", who without any further qualifications is only eligible to be a member of Congress. (see USC Articles I & II)

A "natural born Citizen" of the United States, is a born "citizen of the United States" with a higher or complete allegiance, which is what distinguishes a "natural born Citizen" of the United States from a born "citizen of the United States".

Unknown said...

How could a constitutional amendment change the original definition of a nbc Mario? All they can do now is make a citizen eligible. As bill belichick says, it is what it is.If a2 is changed and allows a lying muslim choom smoking evil gay gangster non citizen as cic then barry would be eligible

Unknown said...

Stranger might be a obot. He certainly does not make a lot of sense

ajtelles said...

Is THAT all...

Unknown said on March 15, 2014 at 4:08 PM -

>> Ajtelles wrote:

>> 'By making public our friendly email exchange […]'

>> “Please do not take anything I write as encouragement to publish private e-mails.

>> “Also note that the replies you've shown make clear his level of interest in your writing.”

Is THAT all Unknown?

Your limited and unresponsive comment presents an excellent opportunity for me.

I definitely am not encouraged by anything you write, certainly not to publish private e-mails with a public figure who was responding to me after I sent the email to his public contact page at http://constitution.i2i.org/. Remember, Unknown, I said in part 9 that there are two reasons that I included the 3 emails to and from Prof. Natelson here on Mario's forum.

1- Prof. Natelson's i2i.org blog does not accept comments which can be read by others, so I had to use his public http://constitution.i2i.org/ contact email.

2 - By making public our friendly email exchange, the intent is to encourage Prof. Natelson, and others, such as Mark Levin, to protect and defend ALL of the Constitution, including Article II Section 1 Clause 5 as well as the “WE the People … to form a more perfect Union” Article V.

Unknown, “and others” in point #2 includes everybody, even “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirthers who are also encouraged to defend the original intent of Article II as well as the original intent of Article V, the article written by the same original birthers who wrote Article II, so that their posterity from generation to generation, election to election, POTUS to POTUS, could have constitutional input into the amendment process by conventions of states as needed.

Natelson's Constitution.i2i.org blog is very informative about an Article V 'convention of states' initiated by the legislatures of at least 34 states, as is Michael Farris's ConventionofStates.com blog.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

ajtelles said...

Touchdown...

a.r.nash, on March 15, 2014 at 6:27 PM, stumbled over my use of the words "natural" birth, and apparently thought that I was distinguishing "natural" birth possibly from Caesarian section birth.

No, a.r.nash, the point is the place of touchdown at birth, U.S. soil or foreign soil, AND with two U.S. citizen parents.

The "place" is the soil of the nation that is ALREADY the soil of the nation BEFORE touch down, before "natural" birth, which could also be by Caesarian section.

Sheesh, a.r.nash, that should be obvious without needing to be stated.

Have you ever heard of giving a speaker the benefit of the doubt if something is said that is not clear to you, and also giving a writer the benefit of the doubt and so reading between the lines if something is not clear to you?

In 1787 America, "natural" birth could only have been, and therefore it must have been, only the result of the physical union of ONLY two married to each other U.S. citizen parents who were BOTH already U.S. citizen BEFORE the child was born naturally, which is inferred from "natural" birth.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

ajtelles said...

False flag v. True believer...

March 15, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

[...]

>> "I have said this before and I will say it again.
>> "I believe that you are a false flag and running interference for the Obots."

- - - - - - - - -

Mario, I could accept a. is a false flag of the Obots, and may even be an Obirther, if I had not scrolled through his h2ooflife interminable home page.

WOW, and wow again, it's sooooooooooooooooooooooo long.

I think a. is a true believer... of something, but his manner of communicating here on your forum is so confusing about basic things that even Prof. Natelson, since retirement from from his 25 year teaching career, probably could not make heads or tails out of a.'s stream of consciousness cacophony.

Some of his comments on his site are interesting, but here on your Puzo1 forum, sheesh, his comments are more like a "cachucha," an Andalusian solo dance in 3/4 time, according to my American Heritage Dictionary.


Art
OriginalBirthreDocument

thalightguy said...

MichaelN,

You said, ‘A born citizen is a 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States" who is not a naturalized alien.’

I respectfully disagree.

Natural born citizens are the only persons born “citizens of the United States”. All other persons either acquire their citizenship at birth or after from the U.S. Constitution, the uniform Rule of Naturalization, or by Treaty.

If you are born in the United States and you are not a “natural born Citizen” then you are “alien born”. SEE: Minor v. Happersett “...all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

If you are “alien born”, to become a “citizen of the United States” you must first fulfill the requirements stipulated in the 14th Amendment. If the requirements are met, (as currently written) you would acquire U.S. citizenship at birth; if the requirements are not met, you can still become a “citizen of the United States” by fulfilling the requirements stipulated in the uniform Rule of Naturalization.

ajtelles said...

part 1

Repeat - until it sinks in...

Mario, your 4 paragraph response to me on September 22, 2013 at 11:13 AM which is below could be added to your March 15, 2014 at 7:48 PM three part tutorial to Unknown a/k/a NotLinda.

The Obot Obirthers and their Obirther State Judges, including the Vermont Judge who said on page 14a Appendix C, ON PETITION FOR A WRIT OF CERTIORARI TO THE VERMONT SUPREME COURT that BHO is a 'natural born Citizen,

>> http://api.ning.com/files/8KGb8vxx0YkHCICqENgDMDaO4Gbk1LIerQ1vLcqUqhxdfVXHlp*ZRF76OAhPmqeYaxdhLswi5JDS0aJfAaECwIMpLPNieziy/Petition_to_SCOTUS______H._Brooke_Paige_v._State_of_Vermont_et_al


>> "(4) the phrase “natural born Citizen” does not have the meaning attributed to it by Mr. Paige—Mr. Obama is a natural born citizen.",

the Obirther judges can't touch your comprehensive erudition of the original intent of the original birthers about THEIR 1787 understanding of the 1787 meaning of "natural born Citizen," and it's intended perpetual relevance.

The shallow thinkier comments of the Obirthers that the public compliments of myself and others here on your forum are sychophantic requires ONLY 1 question about the Obirther's scholar to whom THEY defer as to the deeper implications about issues that we "normal people" just don't have the time to delve into.

Can you Obirthers name one, ONLY ONE, just 1, scholar whom YOU Obirthers can adduce who can go toe-to-toe in the "erudition" heavyweight ring with Mario? The lightweight ring fluff stuff is boring.

Can you Obirthers Name ONE scholar who can contest Mario's historical definition and defense of "natural born Citizen" as requiring birth on the soil of two parents who are citizens of the nation that claims that soil before the child is born?

Is there at least ONE scholar or erudite Federal or State Judge who will claim with a straight face and with comprenhesive sources that "natural born Citizen" in 1787 America to the original birthers could ALSO have meant being born on foreign soil with TWO or even only ONE U.S. citizen parent?

Name ONLY 1.

- - - - - - - - - -

cont.
OriginalBirtherDocument

ajtelles said...

part 2

Repeat - until it sinks in...


>> "Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

>> "ajtelles,

>> "By nature alone, children born in a state of nature belong to the parents to whom they are born. They follow their condition until reaching the age of reason at which time they are old enough and free to change that condition. But regardless of how those children may change their condition upon reaching the age of reason, they can never cast off the natural circumstances under which they were born. In other words, they may gain new and different privileges, immunities, and rights, but they cannot rid themselves of what nature gave to them.

>> "When men decided to leave their state of nature and join together with like minded persons to form a civil society for the purpose of better preserving their life, liberty, and property, they at the same time had to create positive law by which that society had to be guided. With that positive law, the power to punish in order to preserve was given over to that positive law and those the positive law appointed to execute that law.

>> "With this positive law also came the designation of who were to be the members of that society. As to a "citizen" and a "natural born citizen," that positive law which had its origins in the law of nature could be found in the law of nations, which defined a "citizen" as simply a member of society and a "natural born citizen" as a child born in the country to parents who were its "citizens" at the time of the child's birth.

>> "The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, being students of the law of nature and the law of nations, chose this definition of a "citizen," and of a "natural born citizen" which they inserted into Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 for purposes of best preserving and protecting the new republic through the civil and military offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

- - - - - - - - - -

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

thalightguy wrote:
Natural born citizens are the only persons born “citizens of the United States”.
All other persons either acquire their citizenship at birth or after..."

The word "acquire" is vitally important. Natural citizens never acquire citizenship because they are born being citizens by nature, while those who are alien-born do acquire citizenship at birth and are not born being citizens.

Their citizenship can be prevented by merely stepping over the border and giving birth on non-American soil. Whereas for the natural born children of America, that factor is irrelevant.
In addition, such citizenship via legal acquisition exists in the realm of human control, since the high court could reverse the Wong decision, -or the 14th Amendment citizenship clause could be repealed, but nothing can prevent or negate natural citizenship since it is organic and innate. It is an element of one's political character inherited from natives or new citizens of the nation.

So "acquired" citizenship is doubly vulnerable, -to the mother's location when labor beings and ends in delivery, and to a change of American law.

That form of citizenship is not natural because it is not derived from a natural relationship, a blood relationship with parents who are members of the nation.

Instead it is the result of a legal mandate that produces a legal relationship and legal citizenship.
But no legal citizen is eligible to be President.

Natural citizens are born like healthy babies, but legal citizens are born like babies with HIV. HIV is not a natural element of babies. It is acquired, it is added to them and they are born with it just like Wong citizens are born with acquired citizenship.
Even though it is in their blood, that does not make it part of their nature.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN and thalightguy,

You are both correct. The confusion arises because MichaelN told us what a born citizen is and thalightguy told us what a natural born citizen is.

Again, all natural born citizens are born citizens. Not all born citizens are natural born citizens.

A natural born citizen is a born citizen by nature alone (when applied to nations it takes on the additional positive law factor of birth in the country). We can all agree that these persons may be called natural born citizens.

A born citizen who is not a natural born citizen is any person made a born citizen by positive or municipal law. I call these persons law born citizens.

The best way to keep it straight is to simply say that a natural born citizen is one thing and a law born citizen is another. Once the concept of natural born citizenship is understood, it is easy to know whether one is a natural born citizen or a law born citizen.

A natural born citizen is a child born in a county (when applied to the United States it becomes born in the country which is the United States) to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

A law born citizen of the United States is any child who by the Fourteenth Amendment (aided by an Act of Congress which is 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a)) or Act of Congress is made a citizen “at birth.” “At birth” is the language used by Congress in its legislative codifications of the citizen status which it bestows upon qualifying persons from the moment of birth. The positive or municipal law does two things. First, it removes alienage inherited by nature (the place-of-birth-based Fourteenth Amendment removes alienage inherited from one or two alien parents) and acquired by positive or municipal law (the U.S.-citizen-parent based Acts of Congress remove alienage acquired from being born in a foreign nation and thereby subject to its laws and jurisdiction).

Second, and this is where the conflation and confounding with a natural born citizen comes in, these positive and municipal laws remove the alienage as of a certain moment in time. As to the law born citizens, the alienage is removed as of the moment of birth, which allows the child to be born a citizen. A careful reading of the Fourteenth Amendment reveals that its text does not make anyone a born citizen. It is the complementary Act of Congress, 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a) which establishes that those qualifying Fourteenth Amendment citizens are citizens of the United States “at birth.” As we can see, it is a combination of positive and municipal laws which are needed to make that child born in the United States to one or two alien parents a born citizen.

So, both natural born citizens and law born citizens are citizens “at birth.” But the latter acquire their born citizen status under positive and municipal law while the former inherit their membership from nature (born to parents who are both members of a preexisting society) which when applied to nations (sovereign civil and political societies existing within given jurisdictional boundaries) converts that membership into citizenship and requires the additional positive law element of having to be born within the jurisdictional physical boundaries of a country. Hence, under the law of nations definition of a natural born citizen, which during the Founding and adoption of the Constitution, our nation adopted as our common law, only those born in a country to citizen parents are natural born citizens. The other class, while being born citizens, are not natural born citizens under this common law, but rather are alien born, but through the application of positive and municipal laws, are made law born citizens. Not being able to satisfy the common law definition of a natural born citizen, the latter class of citizens are law born citizens, but not natural born citizens.

ajtelles said...

Repeat – until it sinks in...

Mario, on September 20, 2013 at 5:15 PM, you responded to a.r.nash about how the first congress grandfathered foreign born children of U.S. citizens to be 'considered as natural born citizens' in the 1790 Naturalization Act, and the grandfathering was deliberately discontinued by the 1795 Naturalization Act.

I remembered your September 20, 2013 post after reading your comments to MichaelN and thalightguy today, March 16, 2014 at 5:06 PM. It is even more meaningful to me after reading it again almost six months later.

>> http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-constitution-rule-of-law-and.html?commentPage=2

I wonder if the Obirthers have some, three? two? one? quotes that they can adduce to rebut your ever relevant insights into the implications and nuances of what 'natural born Citizen' meant to the 1787 original birthers?

PS. “Birther” is a good label related to the 1787 “original birthers,” while “Obirther” is a pejorative related forever with Barack “if-you-like-your-healh-plan-you-can-keep-your-health-plan” Obama

I'm honored to be called a “birther” because it is related to “original birther” John Jay who suggested to “original birther” George Washington that “nautral” and “born” and “Citizen” should be encoded in the Constitution as the three word unit 'natural born Citizen' with eternal relevance as to all future Chief Executives and Commanders-in-Chiefs of the U.S. military.

The Obirthers seem to think that “birther” is a pejorative, and a label that should be shunned. However, since the “original birhters” like John Jay and George Washington were “birthers” who adopted Article II as well as Article V, the REAL pehorative is Obirther, a reference to the “Obama birther” who in an Obot trance simply regurgitates Obirther talking points for “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama...

- - - - - - - - - -

>> “Natural law is only one source where we find the meaning of a “natural born citizen.” As Vattel explained in Section 215, when defining the citizenship of a nation’s children born out of the country, nature alone does not decide that child’s national character, for a nation’s positive laws must also be followed. Hence, Vattel gives the universal law of nations definition of a “natural born citizen” which takes into consideration both natural law and positive law, i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court, among other decisions, in Minor v. Happersett confirmed that this natural law/positive law definition is the definition of a “natural-born citizen” (cited and quoted favorably in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark). You can argue that place of birth is not relevant when defining a “natural born citizen” all you want, but Vattel, the U.S. Supreme Court, Congress, and the historical record do not agree with you.

>> “If the First Congress was willing to consider those foreign-born children “as natural born citizens,” it was probably because many of those children were the children of Founders who were born abroad during the Revolutionary War. The First Congress was willing to grandfather those early children to be “considered as natural born citizens.” So, while the 1790 Act provided that a child born out of the United States to citizen parents was to be “considered as a natural born citizen,” it did so only retroactively. By 1795, there was not further need to continue to grandfather any children then born out of the United States. With the Revolutionary War well over, Congress also did not want the practice to be continued in the future. So, Congress stopped considering them as “natural born citizens.”

>> “All this means that in modern America, any child born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents is a naturalized “citizen of the United States” at birth, but not an Article II “natural born citizen.” '

- - - - - - - - - -

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

Anonymous said...

Fundamental rights do not need to be stated in legal documents because they are unquestioned and inviolable.

Government might write down in some act or statute that individual citizen rights exist, and has done so right from the beginning, (Bill of Rights and Nat. Act of 1790) but language written to protect natural rights is not the same as language designed to grant a right, -to institute a new legal right, -even though they both may sound identical as declaratory statements.

Declaratory statements written by Congress do not include a mention of the source of their authority, -whether it be the Natural Rights of Man or the authority given to Congress by the Constitution.

Consequently, those who are unaware of their natural rights fail to understand that they are not a child of government and what it gives but a child of their society and born possessing a natural right to be part of it in a mutual bond of belonging to parents who are members.

The children of immigrants acquire that natural right more and more as time passes and they grow-up in a society alien to their parents but of which they themselves become a part.
They also have a constitutional right to be considered as a citizen of the nation formed by that society.
But they do not have a right, -natural nor constitutional, to command all of the power and weaponry and nuclear bombs of the nation because that critical role is rightfully and wisely reserved only for the natural citizens of the nation, -and forbidden to the legal citizens.
So if you are a citizen by American law, then you are not eligible to serve as President. Only those who are citizens by no law whatsoever are eligible because only they are natural born citizens of America as the Constitution requires.

a.r.nash (page 6 of a new exposition)

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

It seems to me that Mario's concept of alienage is inaccurate although logically valid. He equates it to some invisible cloak that law removes.
That is a concept that one can imagine but is not based on reality.

Alienage can never be removed and need not be removed in order to become a citizen by law. Government can naturalize foreigners regardless of anything,including prior citizenship which has not been renounced to their own government.

The foreign ties with which foreigners were born and raised are with them forever, and are inculcated by their immigrant parents and relatives who raise them in the consciousness of their foreign homeland.

It is because of those ties, those bonds, that no naturalized citizen nor an alien-born citizen is allowed to be President. There must be no direct bonds from birth to any foreign land. Only American roots or American bonds are allowed.

When the naturalization oath was personal and individual, it meant the severing of those old attachments by one's sacred vow to America and her Constitution.

Children born to such Americans are presumed to be free of alienage because of the vow of Renunciation. So they are treated as natural born citizens even though their parents have no American roots of their own.

Being native-born is accepted as a reasonable substitute to birth to natives.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

thalightguy wrote:
(re-quoting again)
"Natural born citizens are the only persons born “citizens of the United States”. All other persons either acquire their citizenship at birth or after from the U.S. Constitution, the uniform Rule of Naturalization,.."

This statement overlooks what needs to be parsed. And that is the reality that for almost a century after July 4, 1776, all original citizenship was State citizenship. Immigrant-fathered people born in jus soli honoring States were born as citizens, and their State citizenship made them, by extension, citizens of the nation also.

So by the State supremacy over citizenship and immigration, both the natural citizen children and the jus soli born children were both born as citizens of the United States because there was no federal provision to not recognize the American nationality of alien-fathered children. (nor was there one to recognize them)

That was why there were doubts, as mentioned in Minor, since not all States allowed jus soli citizenship as they all had previously done before the revolution.

Wong resolved those doubts as it was extrapolated to all other immigrant parents and their domestically born off-spring.
But it did not create new doubt about the actual nature of such alien-fathered citizens by conflating them with natural born citizen children of American parents.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Consider the following as a useful tool for understanding the natural born citizen clause:

7 FAM 1131.6-2 Eligibility for Presidency (TL:CON-68; 04-01-1998)

a. It has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person who acquired U.S. citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens is a natural-born citizen within the meaning of Article II of the Constitution and, therefore, eligible for the Presidency.

b. Section 1, Article II, of the Constitution states, in relevant part that “No Person except a natural born Citizen...shall be eligible for the Office of President.”

c. The Constitution does not define "natural born". The “Act to establish an Uniform Rule of Naturalization”, enacted March 26, 1790, (1 Stat. 103,104) provided that, “...the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born ... out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided that the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States.”

d. This statute is no longer operative, however, and its formula is not included in modern nationality statutes. In any event, the fact that someone is a natural born citizen pursuant to a statute does not necessarily imply that he or she is such a citizen for Constitutional purposes.

U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual, 7 FAM 1131.6-2 Eligibility for Presidency (TL:CON-68; 04-01-1998).

+++++

While it errs in calling a person a “natural born citizen” who acquires the status of a “citizen of the United States” at birth under a current Act of Congress (not even the acts themselves call qualifying persons thereunder “natural born citizens”), it looks like the U.S. State Department at least knows the difference between a natural born citizen and a law born citizen when it comes to children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who are U.S. citizens at birth under an Act of Congress. Now the only other thing that is missing in its matrix of knowledge is to understand that the same analysis applies to a born citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, which the amendment does not define as a natural born citizen and who the amendment does nothing more than make a law born citizen.

Here is what its paragraph d should look like if the State Department were commenting on the status of persons born in and out of the United States who are citizens of the United States at birth (assuming it had jurisdiction to comment also on the citizenship status of persons born in the United States):

“In any event, the fact that someone is a born citizen pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment or a statute does not mean that he or she is necessarily a natural born citizen for Article II Constitutional purposes.”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I have been arguing for years that the Fourteenth Amendment, with respect to persons born in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction, but who do not meet the common law definition of a natural born citizen, does nothing more than naturalize those persons at birth. The Obots say that I am nuts for making such an argument.

But consider that the popular name of the Citizenship Clause, which refers to the first sentence of Section 1 in the Fourteenth Amendment, is the “Naturalization Clause.” Devotion Garner; Cheryl Nyberg. "Popular Names of Constitutional Provisions". Marian Gould Gallagher Law Library. http://lib.law.washington.edu/ref/consticlauses.html

ajtelles said...

The popular name ...

Mario, thanks for the Gallagher Law Library url, http://lib.law.washington.edu/ref/consticlauses.html.

Alphabetically -

1-Citizenship Clause - 14th Amendment, §1

2-Naturalization Clause - 14th Amendment, §1

>> "All persons born or naturalized in the United States,
>> and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,
>> are citizens of the United States
>> and of the state wherein they reside. ...."

Alphabetically located, first the "citizenship clause" and second the "naturalization clause" are both referring to a "citizen" by birth on U.S. soil or by naturalization by oath on U.S. soil.

NEITHER designation, "born" or "naturalized," is referring implicitly or explicitly to a 'natural born Citizen' by natural birth on U.S. soil with one or two U.S. citizen parents, OR to a 'natural born Citizen' by naturalization by oath on U.S. soil with one OR two U.S. citizen parents.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo said.....

"In any event, the fact that someone is a born citizen pursuant to the Fourteenth Amendment or a statute does not mean that he or she is necessarily a natural born citizen for Article II Constitutional purposes."

March 16, 2014 at 10:36 PM

Nice, and to the point Mario; many US citizens are ripe for educating on this point, it would make a good advisory/qualifying amendment.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ajtelles,

Art,

Thank you for looking a little further into "Popular Names of Constitutional Provisions" and finding the work’s reference to the Fourteenth Amendment “Citizenship Clause.” Your find is a good example of why in law school professors tell students of the law that you have to keep reading. Given your find, I am going to retract my point about the popular name of the Fourteenth Amendment being the “Naturalization Clause.” Nevertheless, my position that the citizenship part of the amendment, to the extent is does not define a natural born citizen, simply constitutionalized a naturalization provision of Congress (the Civil Rights Act of 1866) still firmly stands.

Born in the United States under its jurisdiction does not define a natural born citizen, but necessarily includes one. All natural born citizens are born or deemed to be born ("reputed born-Vattel)in the United States and under its jurisdiction, but not all those born in the United States and under its jurisdiction are by definition natural born citizens. The former persons, being the natural born citizens, do not need naturalization after birth or even at birth to be citizens. Therefore, a person born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, not being born with any alienage acquired from being born in a foreign country or inherited from being born to a non-U.S. citizen parent, needs neither the Fourteenth Amendment (as Minor explained) nor an Act of Congress nor a treaty to be a citizen.

I did not realize that the popular names work refers to the amendment as also containing the “Citizenship Clause.” What the work is saying is that there are two components to the amendment’s Section 1. One is citizenship by birth in the country with jurisdiction, which it calls citizenship. The other is naturalization in the country with jurisdiction, which it calls naturalization. What is not precise about this division and names is that naturalization is also citizenship and citizenship is also naturalization. Nevertheless, for sake of identifying and dividing the amendment’s concepts, the work has used these names.

I would like to make one other point about the popular names work. It also refers to the popular name “Natural Born Citizen Clause.” It cites Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. In this connection, it makes no reference to the citizenship clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The logical and correct conclusion is that citizenship that does not fall under the name “naturalization,” but falls under the name “citizenship” in the Fourteenth Amendment is still not necessarily Article II natural born citizenship. The reason I say under the name naturalization is because for convenience, we may separate citizenship (only meaning by birth in the United States) from naturalization (for those not born in the United States) in the amendment, but as I have pointed out, as they relate to a natural born citizen and nothing more, there is no difference between the two classes, which supports the conclusion that citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment is not necessarily natural born citizenship.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Out of linguistic convenience, we abuse the word "naturalization" and illegitimately expand its application to situations which are actually not naturalization.

The only real, actual naturalization is that which comes about by the Oath of Allegiance and Renunciation.
The children of naturalized parents are not citizens by naturalization but by statutes that honor jus sanguinis. The children of foreigners become Americans because they became children of Americans. From parents to young their new nationality is passed by blood connection.

Those born of foreigners who have not become Americans should not be described as "naturalized", but as something else because US citizenship nor does result from either parent taking the oath.

If born abroad such dual-nationality children can be labeled statutory citizens. And those born in the U.S. as constitutional citizens or 14th Amendment citizens, or WKA citizens, and both groups can be called legal citizens or law-born citizens.
Law has no application to natural citizenship because there is nothing natural about man-made law.

Instead of saying that WKA citizens are naturalized at birth, it would be far more accurate to say they are granted or provided citizenship from birth. ~


7 FAM 1131.6-2 Eligibility for Presidency
a. It has never been determined definitively by a court whether a person who acquired U.S. citizenship by birth abroad to U.S. citizens is a natural-born citizen...

It should have been worded with a presumption in favor of the description of the 1790 Act:
"It has never been determined definitively that a person born abroad to U.S. citizens is not a natural-born citizen..." THAT is the proper slant. Its opposite is groundless.

Ray said...

>> Stranger/ARNash - It should have been worded with a presumption in favor of the description of the 1790 Act: "It has never been determined definitively that a person born abroad to U.S. citizens is not a natural-born citizen..." THAT is the proper slant. Its opposite is groundless.

You jest - If foreign born children of US citizens where in fact "natural born citizens" there would have been no need for the 1790 statute!

That 1790 statute said the foreign born children of US citizens where, in law, "considered as" "natural born citizens". Every statute since 1795 specified various classes of persons to be, in law, "citizen".

ajtelles said...

An honest man...

Mario, I was watching again the "Thrive" movie on Youtube, produced by Foster Gamble and his wife Kimberly Gamble, when I saw a quote by Anonymous that I think is appropriate on your forum where many informed and uninformed opinions are presented.


"When an honest man discovers he is mistaken,
"he will either cease being mistaken,
"or cease being honest."
Anonymous


No names need to be mentioned here, since we are all wrong about something sometime. The difference between some people arises when a mistake is discovered.

For years I have told friends that when I discover I am wrong about something, well, as soon as I admit I am wrong, I am right, again, which is what I want to be and as we all want to be.

So, now, my partisan comment.

When will the Obirthers admit that BHO is NOT a 'natural born Citizen' since he was NOT born on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents who were married to each other before BHO was born... somewhere?

Still wonderin' after all these years of Obirther opinions without explicit or implicit Article II Section 1 Clause 5 support for “maybe” being born in Hawaii, AND definitely NOT born “somewhere” on U.S. soil with two U.S. citizen parents.

The quote on the "Thrive" movie as at about 1h. 9m. 40s.

The main website is http://www.thrivemovement.com/

The free Youtube video is http://youtu.be/lEV5AFFcZ-s


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument

thalightguy said...

Mario,

You said, “A law born citizen of the United States is any child who by the Fourteenth Amendment (aided by an Act of Congress which is 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a))….”

I humbly point out, 8 U.S.C is not an Act of Congress. (8 U.S.C is merely non-positive law.)

SEE: http://uscode.house.gov/codification/legislation.shtml “There are currently 26 positive law titles in the Code. Those titles are identified with an asterisk on the Search & Browse page”; and http://uscode.house.gov/browse/&edition=prelim “Title 8 does not have an asterisk”

Unknown said...

Washington definitively concluded children born outside of US to americans were citizens, not natural born citizens. The real NBCs have never needed any act of congress or Naturalisation act to become a citizen. Washington borrowed law of nations during his presidency from a NY library and never returned it so i know where i can get his definition

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Leo,

President George Washington and his contemporaries were well versed in Lockean natural law and Vattelian natural law and law of nations concepts of citizenship by consent with the natural right to cast off that citizenship upon reaching the age of reason, versus citizenship imposed for life by an all-powerful King upon virtually all those born in his dominions. Theirs was a true natural born citizen with sole allegiance from birth to the American revolutionary cause, with the natural right to cast off that birth condition and take on a different one upon reaching the age of majority, and not a natural-born subject, who, in addition to the King’s making, in some cases was a creature of judicial decision (Calvin’s Case-1608) or positive and municipal law (Acts of Parliament), and thereby compelled to be a natural born subject of England for life even though born with dual and conflicting allegiances to foreign nations.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

Show me a person, like you and an Obot, who denies the reality of naturalization at birth and I will show you a denier of what a natural born citizen is, a person who has the goal to expand without duly ratified constitutional amendment the class of persons who may be accepted as natural born citizens.

Stranger said...

A.R. Nash writes:

The American national history and policy regarding citizenship for foreigners is in three distinct periods. The second began when the new nation began in 1789, and the second began in 1898 with the Wong opinion.
Up until then foreign women could not become Americans except by marrying an American. Why not? Because they were under the headship of their father well into adulthood and carried his foreign nationality as their own.

They remained as a member of their own family, and that family was foreign. Only sons could step outside of the family and attach themselves to another nation and seek to become a member of it.

Doing so in America involved a serious severing of one's old loyalties and obedience to their own nation and government. The severing (via the taking of the sacred Oath of Allegiance & Renunciation) was akin to cutting an umbilical cord that attached them to their homeland and it's society, and rejecting the umbrella of protection of its government, -which was accompanied by an obligation of obedience.

To understand that second period of American history, one needs to think of the immigrant foreign family (like my own immigrant great, great grand parents and their four daughters) as a single unit, -headed by the husband & father, encapsulated within a placenta attached to an umbilical cord rooted in their foreign homeland, -to which they could return and continue their lives there as natural members and natives of their country.

The attitude of our national government was to view them as a single unit separated from all Americans by being surrounded by the barrier of foreign membership.

If a birth occurred within that foreign sphere, -within the placenta with a foreign attachment, it was as if it did not occur on American soil but on foreign soil because the foreign subjectship of the father surround him and his, the whole family unit.

That is exactly the same as the attitude toward a foreign minister or ambassador if his wife gave birth within one of the united States. He was alien, -as well as all within his family regardless of their birth location. continued...

Stranger said...

A.R. Nash continues...

The sphere that surrounded the immigrant family can be thought of as comprised of two hemispheres. One is the natural connection to his own kinsmen or countrymen, while the other is his location within the sovereign borders of his own nation. He and his own were "within and under the jurisdiction" of his own nation while living within it. But while living within the American States half of that sphere was no longer surrounding them. Within some States, that openness and closeness to American soil fostered the attitude and policy and law that any children that might be born to him in America would be considered as a citizen of the State into which he had emigrated.

But that was not consistent with the view adopted by the national government which was ultimately responsible for dealing with international relationships, including those regarding foreign subjects.
All as result of the two different approaches to national membership, there were unresolved doubts that such domestically born children were really American citizens.
The issue wasn't in regard to alien-born females because all females were in effect merely American subjects, but rather their brothers. If they are viewed as State citizens due to native birth, and are elected to office as adults, then are they also eligible for national office when the national government did not recognized their national citizenship?

So, under the rule of two separate governments, State citizenship was not the same as national citizenship, in particular as regards the right to serve in Congress and as President.

They were foreigners by birth to a foreigner, and the U.S. government rejected the notion of dual-citizenship, just as bigamy was rejected by American society.

Stranger said...

A.R. Nash pt. 3

What happened in 1898 was the Supreme Court deciding that the original and intended meaning of the words of the 14th Amendment's nationality clause... "and subject to the jurisdiction" [of the United States] would mean something else, something much less than what they meant as written and ratified.

That something that they dropped out of sight was one's natural obligation to defend one's own nation.
That obligation was invested in the men of the family, starting with the father, and inherited by his sons upon maturity.

Foreign men, by American law and policy, were not subject to that obligation as American men were because they were not citizens since they were all still within the remaining hemisphere of their foreign attachment and jurisdiction.

When the high court ruled that the native-born children of immigrants were Americans regardless of the families intact foreign attachment, then that opened the door to the view that if the child had American roots via its birth within American jurisdiction, then the father and sons also had connections to their new nation and thus shared the responsibility for national defense.
From then on, they were subject to military conscription, even though they were viewed as foreign nationals. And that remains the policy to this day. They must register with Selective Service.

In response to the court's opinion, the Attorney General adopted the policy that subjection to American sovereign authority was not a consideration, and in effect had no meaning as concerns the male responsibility in national membership.

He thus eviscerated the intent of the 14th Amendment, the concept of family unity under the father, and natural foreign attachments as a factor in determining American citizenship for any and every baby born within U.S. jurisdiction, -even though not subject to it as required.

Anonymous said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...
"Show me a person...who denies the reality of naturalization at birth..."

Your comprehension is inadequate. I did not in any way whatsoever deny what you and I recognize as being true.
My only point was that the word "naturalization" is a bad choice to describe it because using it abuses it into vague and undefined fuzziness.

Real naturalization is only something that is personal and by one's own volition. It is not something that happens to one without one's consent or knowledge.
Were that not literally true, then North Korea could "naturalize" anyone that steps foot on PRK soil.
Would you ever agree that people so "naturalized" were in reality naturalized according to what real naturalization is?

To repeat myself, the 14th Amendment was misconstrued by the Supreme Court but its accepted effect was not to naturalize alien-born children, but to citizen-ize them at birth.

My complaint about the sloppy use of the term is that it should only apply to the process of becoming an American citizen by one's own choice, and being thus made, by fiction of law, into a new natural citizen like all of the rest of the American people.

But being a natural citizen by a fiction of law is not the same as being a natural citizen by birth.

One must be born as a natural citizen in order to be eligible to be President, and that was the reason that John Jay underlined the word.

He would never have underlined a single word in a term of legal artifice because the meaning is unitarian, -and single words cannot be singled out.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

There you go again with your contradictions. Consent for naturalization is no different than consent for citizenship. Consent is given either through a child’s parents, when the child is born or after the child is born but before reaching the age of majority. After reaching the age of majority, that person than is free to give his or her own consent. In all cases, the nation also gives its consent.

By your answer to me, I can see that you are, indeed, a denier of naturalization at birth.

Your North Korea example is as nonsensical as so much of what you write.

Your expression, “a natural citizen by a fiction of law” finds no basis in any decision of the United States Supreme Court. We have all already established the point and your constant repeating it and attitude as if you invented the concept changes nothing.

Your point about why John Jay underlined the word “born” in “natural born citizen” proves nothing. The clause “natural born citizen” already tells us that one must be “born a natural citizen in order to be eligible to be President.” Jay did not have to underline the word “born” to convey that. In any event, there are natural born citizens and law born citizens. Hence, underlying born proves nothing. You are just making stuff up as you always do.

Stranger said...

A.R.Nash writes:

Ray said to me: "You jest - If foreign born children of US citizens where in fact "natural born citizens" there would have been no need for the 1790 statute!"

Dear Ray, where the hell have you been for the last month? I've explained multiple times what the reason was. Why do you pretend that no reason could have existed other than necessity when I've laboriously explained exactly what was the reason for their mention was?

They were ONLY mentioned in order to protect and declare their natural birthright as Americans to serve their nation in every capacity, including and particularly as President.

Their mention was NOT an exercise of non-existent authority.

It was instead entirely a declaration of natural fact so that people possessed of the dogma that grips your mistaken mind would not take the attitude that you take. -An attitude the greatly denigrates the breadth of what is included in the high privilege of American CITIZENSHIP.

What is included is THE RIGHT, as mentioned by Vattel, of CITIZEN fathers to pass their membership to their sons and daughters.

Now here you are proclaiming that Vattel was full of crap. American fathers have no such right and are merely subjects of the STATE and will take whatever it is willing to allow them.

Understand this: No founding father, no framer of the Constitution, would have taken their natural right to pass their natural national membership to their children and given it up to any government, including the one they were creating to serve them and their kinsmen.

They were not like Esau who frivolously give up his birthright to Jacob.
They would have considered any man holding your view to be a traitor to American principles and to their Natural Rights as freemen of a free country.

You need to stop viewing government as god!

Anonymous said...

A.R. Nash writes:

Mario's theory of citizenship is like a golden orb. It seems very solid and precious. But it consists of two halves. One half is his understanding that natural citizenship flows from parents to children, with their membership in their society and national family being their natural inheritance.

That half of his view is golden, pure, real, and solid. The problem is the other half. It consists of the invented view that the irrelevant factor of where one's mother's womb was located during the brief and inconsequential moment when they exited it is also vitally important to whether or not one can belong to their natural national family.

In other words, the earth location of a brief event in space and time determines who and what they are for the rest of their lives merely because that brief event happened to be the occasion of their entrance into the world.

That event had nothing whatsoever to do with nature because that event is defined not by its origin but its location, -as was the case under the dictatorship of the kings of England.

Their system of human ownership ("my people") was overthrown and rejected by the self-liberated Americans who only recognized the kinship of blood to be the basis of naturally belonging to their parents' country.

But Mario, and others before him going all of the way back to the mind-set of the Loyalists and the system by which they were indoctrinated, returns to the vomit of the royal dictatorship by embracing the King's criterion for national membership; i.e., -the birth event occurring within the nation's borders.

That half of Mario's golden orb of citizenship theory is not Gold, but is pyrite. Fools gold, and only fools willingly embrace it because it is the antithesis of the natural principles on which American freedom and independence are based.

Ray said...

Stranger/ARNash

Let's look at what you said:

"[The U.S. Department of State Foreign Affairs Manual] should have been worded with a presumption in favor of the description of the 1790 Act: 'It has never been determined definitively that a person born abroad to U.S. citizens is not a natural-born citizen...' THAT is the proper slant. Its opposite is groundless."

Your natural law view is correct in a "state of nature". It describes our nature as social animals to form families and larger groups.

As a social group becomes larger it forms a government which [among other things] issues law determining who shall be admitted into their society.

We do not live in a state of nature but within societies which have established governments each of which have sovereign territorial jurisdiction.

Your view dismisses this fact and it is here where you err.

If a country does not have laws governing citizenship there would be chaos. Every individual from another country would be subject to the laws of their home country, making the country they're visiting ungovernable.

The government of a society has a natural right to sovereign territorial jurisdiction equal to the natural right of the government of another society to sovereign territorial jurisdiction.

This can not be dismissed.

It has been determined definitively that a person born abroad to U.S. citizens is not a natural-born citizen - witness the existence of the 1790 statute. All that act did is make the foreign born children of US citizens, for purposes of law, "considered as" "natural born citizens". They were not in fact natural born citizens due to the conflicts which would arise between the rights of nations.

//

You impute statements to me that I did not make: "Their mention was NOT an exercise of non-existent authority." & "Now here you are proclaiming that Vattel was full of crap." Not having said or implied these things there's no point to addressing your words regarding them.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

I of II

It would be a big break to see you argue something that is based on some credible source rather than you pure imagination.

On the place of birth, for example, Emer de Vattel explains in The Law of Nations (1758) that by natural law alone, a child born in a foreign country is still a “citizen” of the same nation to which his or her parents belong (the parents not having quitted their nation and joined the one in which their child was born). Vattel, Section 215. He states that the child follows the condition of his or her parents. Id. But he cautions that a nation can through its civil or political laws (positive laws) decide to treat that child born in a foreign county to its citizens as it pleases. Id. He states that these positive laws must be followed. Id.

In Section 216, Vattel covers the situations of children born at sea. He explains that a child born in a ship in water of the nation is born in the country. He states that if a child is born on the open sea in a ship belonging to the nation, the nation retains jurisdiction over that ship and so the child is “reputed born in the country.” He goes further and says that even if that ship is in the waters of a foreign nation, that child is still reputed born in the country. He then explains that children born in a foreign vessel are reputed born in a foreign country, unless the birth took place in a ship that was in a port belonging to the nation. In that case, the child is “reputed born in the country” of the parents if the birth occurs on the vessel when it is in the port of their own nation and “she and her husband,” meaning the child’s mother and father, “have not quitted their native country to settle elsewhere.”

Vattel states in Section § 217. Children born in the armies of the state:

"For the same reasons also, children born out of the country, in the armies of the state, or in the house of its minister at a foreign court, are reputed born in the country; for a citizen who is absent with his family, on the service of the state, but still dependent on it, and subject to its jurisdiction, cannot be considered as having quitted its territory."

Vattel said in Section 217 that under the law of nations, which is based on natural law, a child born to citizen parents who are “serving the armies of the state” is “reputed born in the country,” as both the child and parents are still subject to the jurisdiction of the nation. That means that the child, even though physically born in a foreign country, is accepted as born in the country. This is the rule that allows John McCain, born in Panama to U.S. citizen parents who were serving the U.S. national defense, to be a natural born citizen.

Vattel in Section 217 also provides the benefit of his “reputed born in the country” rule to those born abroad to citizen parents who may be providing service to their nation “in the house of its ministers at a foreign court.”

So much for your place of birth not being relevant in the rule of who are the natural born citizens.

Continued . . .

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