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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

While the Committee on Detail originally proposed that the President must be merely a "citizen" as well as a resident for 21 years, the Committee of Eleven changed "citizen" to "natural born citizen" without recorded explanation. On September 4, 1787, about 6 weeks after Jay's letter and just 2 days after Washington wrote back to Jay, the "natural born citizen" requirement appeared in the draft of the Constitution. Here is the first style of the clause as presented by the Committee of Eleven:

"(5) Sect. 2. No person except a natural born citizen or a Citizen of the U. S. at the time of the adoption of this Constitution
shall be eligible to the office of President; nor shall any person be
elected to that office, who shall be under the age of thirty five
years, and who has not been in the whole, at least fourteen years
a resident within the U. S."

Madison's notes of the Convention http://www.nhccs.org/dfc-0904.txt.

The proposal passed unanimously without debate which does not mean that the proposal was not discussed, for the convention meetings were conducted in secrecy.

At the close of the Convention, Hamilton gave to Madison another document which does contain in Article IX provision for the election of a President and the “born a citizen” language for eligibility. Ferrand wrote that Hamilton gave this “paper” to Madison and the end of the Convention and that Hamilton “would have wished to be proposed by the Convention: He had stated the principles of it in the course of the deliberations.” p. 619. Farrand also wrote that Hamilton’s paper “was not submitted to the Convention and has no further value than attaches to the personal opinions of Hamilton.” p. 619. This draft of the Constitution is not to be confused with his sketch of a plan of government (the British Plan) which he read to the Convention on June 18, 1787.

This subsequent document provided that the President be either at that time a citizen of one of the States or be “born a citizen of the United States.” Article IX Sec. 1 in Appendix F of the Hamilton Plan of 1787 read: “No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a citizen of the United States.”

Hamilton gave his paper to Madison before the convention came to an end which we know occurred on September 17, 1787, the date the delegates signed the Constitution. Hamilton served on committees that drafted convention rules and provided for writing style. We can reasonably assume that since the document was in the hands of these two influential Founders and Framers, they would have discussed the plan with others making decisions at that time. While we do not know exactly what happened during the convention regarding Hamilton’s “born a citizen of the United States” concept, we do know that “born a citizen of the United States” was not accepted and “natural born Citizen” was.

Hamilton did provide his paper containing the “born a citizen” language to James Madison. Additionally, he most likely also discussed his paper with other Convention delegates, even if he did not submit his paper to the Convention. I just cannot imagine Hamilton going through all that effort to draft that proposed constitution and not share it with the Convention delegates prior to the end of the Convention. Hence, enough delegates probably knew about Hamilton’s “born a citizen,” but no one made any suggestion that the Constitution read “born a citizen” rather than “natural born citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

Any interpretation of the “natural born Citizen” clause has to address the use of the word “natural” and not just simply invent for convenience sake that today we do not need the word. We have to reasonably explain why “born” would have been rejected and “natural born” selected. Each word of the Constitution counts and we must account for each one. See Marbury v. Madison (1803)(Chief Justice John Marshall told us that we simply cannot write words out of the Constitution when interpreting it).

So we can see that the Founders and Framers knew that there was a difference between a “natural born citizen” and a “citizen” and even a “born a citizen of the United States.” Hamilton’s “born a citizen of the United States” actually conflated “natural born citizen” and “citizen of the United States.” Rather, the Framers considered these two types of citizens as separate classes and kept them apart in Article I (for Congressional eligibility used “Citizen of the United States”) and in Article II (for presidential eligibility used both “Citizen of the United States” and “natural born Citizen”). We also know that if “natural born Citizen” was not clear or presented some problem, Hamilton would surely have been in a position to object to it or make some statement as to why “born a citizen of the United States” was the equivalent to “natural born Citizen” which is what the Obots are advocating today. We know from Minor v. Happersett (1875) how the Framers defined a natural born citizen and it was not just any born citizen. Rather the clause specifically meant a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. It was only by satisfying these elements that one became the type of born citizen which made one a natural born citizen. Hence, from Minor we can see that the Framers would have used the natural born citizen clause because it had a specific means by which one was to become a born citizen which means satisfied their goal of keeping foreign and monarchical influence out of the Office of President and Commander in Chief.

This all shows that the Framers expected more than just being a “born citizen” to be eligible to be President. Born citizen could have meant anything Congress decided it to mean. Rather they demanded that one be a “natural born citizen” which had only one meaning which was born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

+++++++++++++

1. Farrand's Records
The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787
One of the great scholarly works of the early twentieth century was Max Farrand's The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787. Published in 1911, Farrand's work gathered the documentary records of the Constitutional Convention into four volumes--three of which are included in this online collection--containing the materials necessary to study the workings of the Constitutional Convention. According to Farrand's introduction, at the close of the convention, the secretary, William Jackson, delivered all the materials to the president of the convention, George Washington, who turned these papers over to the Department of State in 1796. In 1818, Congress ordered that the records be printed, which was done under the supervision of the Secretary of State John Q. Adams, in 1819.

Farrand's Records remains the single best source for discussions of the Constitutional Convention. The notes taken at that time by James Madison, and later revised by him, form the largest single block of material other than the official proceedings. The three volumes also includes notes and letters by many other participants, as well as the various constitutional plans proposed during the convention.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/amlaw/lwfr.html

Unknown said...

If the CC had put citizen of the US at birth being eligible ( which they declined to do) then cruz would be eligible. Art, you should read robert morrows blog about all the criminal activitys of lbj, bush sr, bubba clinton etc. Barry has not been the only lying evil murderous gay scumbag in white house. I learned a lot about the cia and past presidents after i read minor which proved to me the game is rigged, the msm is controlled and every member of congress is either shady or a coward. What chief Justice Waite wrote in minor will never be mentioned in msm or in Congress

Unknown said...

What farrand wrote about hamiltons suggestion of someone born a citizen of the US being eligible is just more proof that a NBC is more than just a born citizen

ajtelles said...

A “hint” recommended by George Washington...

1/2

Mario, below is a portion of your post on March 11,2011, The States Have the Constitutional Power to Pass Legislation Prescribing Presidential Ballot Access Requirements Including Determining Whether a Candidate Meets the Eligibility Requirements of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, [ http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2011/03/states-have-constitutional-power-to.html ].

- - - - - - - - - -

>> “Notwithstanding whatever powers the states may have retained under the Tenth Amendment, states cannot alter or add to the meaning of a “natural born Citizen.” As U.S. Term Limits explained in the context of qualifications for Congress,

>> ““[f]irst, we conclude that the power to add qualifications
>> “is not within the ‘original powers’ of the States,
>> “and thus is not reserved to the States by the Tenth Amendment.
>> “Second, even if States possessed some original power in this area,
>> “we conclude that the Framers intended [801] the Constitution
>> “to be the exclusive source of qualifications for Members of Congress,
>> “and that the Framers thereby "divested" States of any power to add qualifications. Id. at 800-01.
>> “Indeed, states cannot prescribe a presidential eligibility requirement
>> “that goes over and above that included in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 itself.
>> “To do so would be unconstitutional. United States Term Limits, 514 U.S. at 807.”



>> “The Constitution does not provide a definition of the “natural born Citizen” clause. Nevertheless, the states can define the “natural born Citizen” clause based on:


>> “(1) the text and structure of the Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 and other parts of the Constitution;


>> “(2) the Founders’ and Framers’ intent in inserting the “natural born Citizen” clause in the Constitution which was for the safety and preservation of the nation by excluding foreign allegiance, influence, and attachment from the Office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

>> “On July 25, 1787, John Jay wrote a letter to General Washington, who was acting as president of the Constitutional Convention, stating:

>> "Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise & seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Command in chief of the american army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen" (“born” underlined in the original). http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28fr00379%29%29 .

>> “On September 2, 1787, George Washington wrote a letter to John Jay the last line of which read:
>> "I thank you for the hints contained in your letter."
>> “http://www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=71483 .

>> “On September 4, 1787, about 6 weeks after Jay's letter and just 2 days after Washington wrote back to Jay, the "natural born Citizen" requirement appeared in the draft of the Constitution.

>> “The proposal passed unanimously without debate which does not mean that the proposal was not discussed, for the convention meetings were conducted in secrecy. From the chronology of these events, we can conclude that it was probably Jay’s letter to Washington and his concern about foreign influence infecting the office of the Commander in Chief which motivated the Founders and Framers to insert the clause as part of the eligibility requirements to be President and Commander in Chief.”

- - - - - - - - - -

ajtelles said...

A “hint” recommended by George Washington...

2/2

John Jay to George Washington
>> http://www.consource.org/index/natural-born-citizen-clausepresidential-eligibility-clause/
>> http://www.consource.org/document/john-jay-to-george-washington-1787-7-25/

>> "John Jay to George Washington (July 25, 1787)
>> "New York 25 July 1787
>> "Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise & seasonable to provide a a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expresly that the Command in chief of the american army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen."


George Washington to John Jay
>> http://www.consource.org/document/george-washington-to-john-jay-1787-9-2/

>> "George Washington to John Jay (September 2, 1787)
>> "Philadelphia Sept. 2d 1787
>> "I regret not having had it in my power to visit New York during the adjournment of the Convention, last Month. — not foreseeing with any precission the period at which it was likely to take place or the length of it, I had put my carriage in the hands of a workman to be repaired and had not the means of mooving during the recess but with, or the curtisy of, others.
>> "I thank you for the hints contained in your letter."


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) informed that the Constitution, which then already included the Fourteenth Amendment, did not define a natural born citizen. It said that we have to look outside the Constitution for its meaning. It explained that the Framers relied upon the common law for their definition of a natural born citizen and that that common law had a particular nomenclature with which they were familiar. It said that under that common law and pursuant to its nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar, children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of their birth were not only citizens like their parents, but also natives or natural born citizens, and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” who could be naturalized as citizens by Acts of Congress or treaties.

Since under that common law becoming both a citizen and a natural born citizen depended on birth in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, freed slaves born to slaves and children born to alien parents in the United States did not qualify as citizens, let alone natural born citizens under this common law.

As part of the post-Civil War Reconstruction, Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866 which provided: “All persons born in the United States, and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States.” Since slaves had for many generations lost any connections to any foreign power, freed slaves could demonstrate that they were not only born in the United States, but also not born subject to any foreign power and therefore citizens of the United States at birth. Those first generation black citizens could then go on to procreate children who were born in the United States who under the common law became natural born citizens and so on.

In order to constitutionalize this Act, Congress had the Fourteenth Amendment ratified in 1868. This Amendment, which replaced the Civil Rights Act, provides: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” Given the manner in which our courts have interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment, not being subject to any foreign power and being subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S. are two different standards. So as to allow children born in the United States to alien parents who were not former slaves to also be citizens of the United States, our courts have interpreted being “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” as requiring only that one at the time of birth be subject to the laws of the United States. See Benny v. O'Brien, 58 N.J. Law, 29 Vroom 36, 39, 40 (1895). Just being born in the U.S. territory to parents who are at least permanently domiciled and residents of the United States satisfies the requirement that one be born subject to its laws. This excludes being born to foreign diplomats or military invaders. Hence, there is nothing needed other than just being born in the U.S. under such circumstances to satisfy the jurisdiction clause as it is currently interpreted and applied. See U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). These first generation citizens of the United States can also go on to procreate children born in the United States who under the common law also become natural born citizens and so on; the same is true for citizens of the United States who become such by naturalization after birth.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Congress had the Fourteenth Amendment ratified so that freed slaves could become “citizens of the United States” from the moment of their birth and without needing any naturalization from an Act of Congress. The Amendment, as interpreted and applied by our courts, also benefits children born in the United States to alien parents who are not diplomats or military invaders. Hence, the Fourteenth Amendment did nothing more than create a minimum constitutional citizen whose citizenship status Congress cannot remove. That person is born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” The Amendment did not add persons to the common law natural born citizen class which, being the type of citizen the President and Vice-President must be, is the highest form of U.S. citizenship. So the Amendment created a constitutional minimum. It did not change the common law constitutional maximum by proving another means or mechanism by which one can become a natural born citizen. This being the fundamental purpose of the Fourteenth Amendment, if follows that U.S v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), in holding that Wong was a citizen of the United States from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment and not by virtue of the common law which defined a natural born citizen, only held that children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents were also included in that constitutional minimum and not that they were part of the constitutional maximum, i.e., the natural born citizens.

Anonymous said...

It's just occurred to me that Mario & crew have an irreconcilable paradox at the heart of their doctrine; a confounding conundrum that's inexplicable. It has no possible resolution. Allow me to reveal it to you all so you can marvel at the immensity of the problem.
Both obots and nativists pontificate that the words "natural born citizen" comprise a term of legal artifice that exists as a unitary expression with a preexisting definition.

Such a term cannot be altered, -the words cannot be rearranged, hyphens cannot be added or subtracted, and individual words of the phrase cannot be individually emphasized by underlining since the entire phrase has a single unitary ascribed artificially meaning.

And yet Jay underlined a single word of the three-word term. How slow do you have to be to not grasp that you can't underline a single word of a multiple-word term of art???

And yet there is his underline, completely demolishing the doctrine that it is a term of art. Both camps look like the fools that they are, by attempting to maintain that fantasy.

As soon as Art or Mario offers an explanation for why Jay underlined "born", they demolish the foundation of their own dogma by acknowledging covertly that the three words were not a term of art to him.

If it were he would have had to have underlined "natural-born" which is the supposed term-of-art phrase which actually didn't even exist in British common law or jurisprudence.
Since there is no record of its existence in the law dictionaries of the time, it is purely asinine to claim that something non-existent was carried over in America by attachment to "Citizen".

Natural-born had no "definition" when used with either subject or citizen.
Rather, the entire phrase "natural-born subject" had a general meaning of British subject by other than naturalization, although they also became such via that process.

Their system was not ours post-Revolution. Their term was not ours either. We could underline "natural" or "born" if we wanted to emphasize one or the other. The Brits could not.
They had a term of art. We did not. Our natural citizens were so by descent, by parental connection and not by common law. Birth place was thus irrelevant as a factor.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2oflife,

I of II

You keep trying to convince us that Jay having underlined the word “born” when he wrote “natural born citizen” somehow supports your theory that the place of a child’s birth is not relevant to the definition of a natural born citizen. It is absurd to want to convert what he wrote, “natural born citizen,” into “born citizen” simply because he underlined born. It is absurd because if he meant born citizen, he could have simply written born citizen. Surely the people of his generation knew how to write born citizen rather than natural born citizen. We have a great example of such persons in Alexander Hamilton, who was at the Constitutional Convention, served on committees, and even wrote the British Plan of government and a proposed other Constitution. Hamilton was even one of the three Publius writers who produced The Federalist Papers. As I explained in my previous comment, Hamilton wrote “born a citizen” in his proposed Constitution. No one at the Convention other than Hamilton advocated that. Rather the Convention, like Jay, chose “natural born citizen” and that is the exact clause that we find in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5.

Jay wrote “natural born citizen” and underlined “born” in his July 1787 letter to then-General George Washington. But the Constitution says “natural born citizen.” The word “born” is not underlined. That tells you that underlining born is superfluous. Again, if underlining born has any meaning, it only meant that Jay wanted a would-be Commander to be truly born a citizen by nature, and not only made so by law. In other words, “born” was to really mean “born.” But that goal is accomplished by writing the phrase “natural born citizen,” which adds the qualifier “natural” to “born,” and so there is no need to also underlying born.

You also disagree with me that the word “natural born citizen” is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause. You will note that Jay wrote “natural born citizen.” He did not write “natural-born citizen.” There is an important difference between the two styles. Neither the expressions “natural born” nor “natural-born” alone existed during the time the Constitution was written. Natural born was part of “natural born citizen” which under the law of nations had its own specific meaning. Natural-born was part of “natural-born subject,” which had a meaning under English common and statutory law which was different from the meaning of a natural born citizen. “Natural born” was found only with it being part of “natural born citizen” like “natural-born” was found only as a part of “natural-born subject.” So, natural born citizen, defined under the law of nations, was a different concept from and had a different meaning than natural-born subject, which was defined under English common and statutory law. Just taking the parts of either two of these full clauses did not convey the full meaning that the full clauses provided. It was only when the full clauses were used that they conveyed the intended specific meaning which was that one had become a citizen or subject from the moment of birth, with a natural born citizen having its own means and mechanism for accomplishing that end and a natural-born subject having another.

The clause “natural born citizen” (written in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 as “natural born Citizen”) took on the form “natural-born citizen” as a result of the 1797 English translation of Vattel which used “natural-born citizen.” The anonymous English translator, living at the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified and being part of the educated community, most likely

Continued . . .


Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Part II of II

knew that the Framers got their definition of their “natural born Citizen” from Vattel. After all, I cannot fathom that the Framers would have written that future Presidents and Commanders had to be natural born citizens and no one during the Constitutional Convention, ratifying state conventions, and years that followed up to 1797 would not have privately or publicly discussed the meaning of a natural born citizen. The translator would have been in a position to learn of the results of such discussions and therefore learn of the public meaning of the clause, not only in the United States, but also in England. Hence, he reflected that public meaning in the 1797 English edition of The Law of Nations (1758) by making sure that what was ascribed to Vattel reflected that he defined the “natural born citizen” that the Framers inserted into the Constitution. There is no other reasonable explanation as to why the translator, following the ratification of the Constitution in 1788, would have gone through all that trouble and deliberately change the English translation of Section 212 from what it had been in all the several other previous English editions which went as far back as 1759. With the translator being cultured in the English “natural-born subject,” he probably just took the “natural-born” from the English tradition and used it when translating Vattel’s “natural born citizen” and produced “natural-born citizen.” You will note that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1785) also used the same form as the 1797 Vattel, writing “natural-born citizen” rather than “natural born citizen” which is what is written in the Constitution. That is strong evidence that the Court used the Vattel 1797 English edition when in quoting from Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 it said “natural-born citizen” rather than what is really written there which is “natural born Citizen,” and when it wrote and defined the “natives” and “natural-born citizens,” explaining:

“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

As you can see, the Court wrote “natives, or natural-born citizens” which is the exact words found in Vattel’s Section 212 of The Law of Nations (1797 English edition): “The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” Here we can see how nicely Vattel separates the “citizens” from the “natural born citizens” which dichotomy the Framers and Congress have also always followed.

So, Mr. Nash, you are wrong in rejecting my position as to the meaning of John Jay underlining the word “born.” Additionally, your position on why Jay underlined the word born (that it means that one only had to be a born citizen to be Commander) is also contradictory to your position that Obama is not a natural born citizen. You are wrong in rejecting my position that place of birth is a necessary condition to be satisfied in order for one to be a natural born citizen. Finally, you are also wrong in rejecting my position that “natural born citizen” is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause, which the Framers defined under the common law which had its source in the law of nations as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

ajtelles said...

What's the Connection...
1/3
Disinformation + Obama + CIA “patsy” Oswald v KGB “patsy” Oswald...

Leo, you wrote on May 7, 2014 at 1:25 AM,

>> "[...] Art, you should read robert morrows blog about all the criminal activitys of lbj, bush sr, bubba clinton etc. Barry has not been the only lying evil murderous gay scumbag in white house. I learned a lot about the cia and past presidents ... ."

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, since none of us can know for sure if Oswald is a fall guy, a patsy, and to which organization he was referring to when he said “I'm just a patsy”, the debate continues. For that reason I am responding to Leo's suggestion to read Robert Morrow's blog in two ways: first, a look at the “I'm just a patsy” declaration by Oswald and the “patsy” “disinformation” surrounding Oswald, and second, a look at the similarity of the Oswald “disinformation” effort with the “... fundamentally transforming ... America ...” declaration by Obama and the eligibility “disinformation” surrounding Obama since the nascent effort in Congress in 2003 to affect the original intent meaning of “natural born Citizen” before Obama was a U.S. Senator, and since 2008 before he was nominated as the Democratic candidate for president.

First, by presenting the selected quotes from Pacepa's book Disinformation: Former Spy Chief Reveals Secret Strategies for Undermining Freedom, Attacking Religion, and Promoting Terrorism, with the intent of affirming Lt. Gen. Pacepa's informed contention, based on his former Romanian DIE intelligence officer experience of more than 20 years, that Oswald was definitely a “patsy” of some organization, and, using Ockhams' razor, the simplest answer, the conclusion, is that Oswald was a KGB “patsy”, and the KGB “disinformation” effort successfully transferred complicity away from the single Soviet KGB organization to the multiple American organizations, CIA, FBI, Secret Service, Military, etc., and the Mafia.

Second, while the practice of “disinformation” that Pacepa presents in his book is not related in his book to Obama, Article II, or POTUS eligibility, there does seem to be a similar type of “disinformation” effort, starting with the Joint Resolution effort in the 108th Congress in 2003 to change the restriction inherent in “natural born Citizen”, a Joint Resolution that was offered 5 years before BHObama was nominated in 2008, an effort to change and transform the public perception away from John Jay's explicitly stated original intent for Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

After reading Pacepa's Disinformation book, I noticed a similarity between the successful “disinformation” effort surrounding the ideological “I'm just a [KGB] patsy” Oswald with the successful “disinformation” effort surrounding the ideological “we are five days away from fundamentally transforming [changing] the United States of America” Obama.

- - - - - - - - - -

ajtelles said...

What's the Connection...
2/3
Leo, I took a look at Morrow's LBJ-JFK blog,
>> http://lyndonjohnsonmurderedjfk.blogspot.com/
and his very informative December 22, 2010 Economic Policy Journal article, My Files on the LBJ-CIA Assassination of JFK
>> http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2010/12/my-files-on-lbj-and-cia-assassination.html
and an article at SFGate.com about a salacious Robert Morrow, Who Is Rick Perry’s Gay and Stripper Sex Accuser Robert Morrow? at
>> http://blog.sfgate.com/abraham/2011/08/18/who-is-rick-perrys-gay-and-stripper-sex-accuser-robert-morrow/

LBJ is an easy target as the man who has the most to gain. In the 2013 book by Roger Stone, The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ, which Morrow mentions on his blog, and in the YouTube videos showing LBJ, two cars behind JFK's car, ducking down in the back seat of his topless car AFTER his car turned left in front of the Book Depository building and BEFORE the first shot was heard, the YouTube videos show that LBJ is not visible and his wife Lady Bird sitting next to him is still sitting up straight, as is the Senator sitting to the left of her.

Morrow's LBJ blog and his LBJ article at Economic Policy Journal is one version of JFK's assassination by the CIA. Ion Pacepa has another version.

Ion Pacepa, in his 2013 book Disinformation, has a different version of JFK's assassination—by the KGB—and Lee “I'm just a patsy” Oswald. The CIA did not do it, the KGB did it, and, in my own words, Oswald was the “patsy” of the KGB, not of the CIA. As mentioned in the selected quotes below, the KGB disinformation campaign pinning the assassination on the CIA began November 23, the day after Kennedy was killed, so, Pacepa concludes, the KGB did it and immediately started to blame the CIA.

In my own words, not Pacepa's, Oswald may truly have been a “patsy” whether or not he was “a” shooter or “the” shooter, and he may have been the KGB “patsy” who was set up to meet his KGB contact at the Dallas theater, because, who else would know that Oswald would be going there.

The Dallas, Texas theater and its relevance to Oswald's meeting in a Mexico City theater with a Soviet Embassy KGB officer in the Soviet Department Thirteen (assassinations abroad), who was assigned under diplomatic cover to the Soviet Embassy in Mexico City, will be understood after reading the selected quotes below from Disinformation.

As Pacepa clarifies in his book and in the selected quotes below, Oswald, who was recruited by the KGB in the late 1950s as an ideological true believer while stationed at Atsugi Air Base in Japan, one of only two air bases where the secret U-2 planes were based, Oswald became a KGB ideological military convert, and in my own words, eventually a KGB “useful idiot”, a KGB “fall guy', a KGB “patsy”.

Finally, again in my own words, not Pacepa's, the successful KGB “disinformation” effort against the ideological Oswald and his“ I'm just a patsy” declaration seems to have, although not perpetrated by the 1960s KGB, a 2008-2014 KGB/FSB style “disinformation” connection with the ideological Obama and his “we are five days away from fundamentally transforming [changing] the United States of America” declaration, a “disinformation” effort that includes changing the public perception about eligibility to be POTUS by the ONE with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent.

ajtelles said...

What's the Connection...
3/3
Mario, the words “change”, “changed” and “changes” are used by Pacepa in his book and in the selected quotes below. What is directly related to John Jay and Article II is the effort by defenders of the Obama birth narrative to change the past to change the present to change the future. The political “tell” about a stealth “change” is Obama's “.. five days away … from transforming … America ...” speech, a stealth jihad and a “disinformation” hit-job by Obama on the US Constitution and which is being continued by his “cadre” acolytes, “disinformation” to transform perception about the US Constitution and, specifically in context, the original intent of Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

To “transform perception” is the O-birther's cue. This is where they will come to the defense of the ONE with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent. The “transform perception” “cue” will be understood after the O-birthers read why Pacepa thinks that Oswald was KGB trained and used by the KGB as a fall guy. In my own words, Oswald was later set up by the KGB as the KGB “patsy” BEFORE Kennedy was killed, and over time, in Pacepa's words, the KGB successfully pinned the blame for Kennedy's assassination on the CIA, making Oswald the “patsy” of the FBI, CIA, Secret Service, military-industrial complex, and the Mafia.

- - - - - - - - - -

Ion Mihai Pacepa, former Romanian Lt. General, the highest-ranking Soviet bloc intelligence official ever to defect to the West, in 2007 published Programmed to Kill: Lee Harvey Oswald, the Soviet KGB, and the Kennedy Assassination, and in 2013 he and American Prof. Ronald J. Rychlak published Disinformation: Former Spy Chief Reveals Secret Strategies for Undermining Freedom, Attacking Religion, and Promoting Terrorism.

In Disinformation, Pacepa writes that Oswald was KGB trained.

Page 207 -
(Chapter 29 – The End of America's Innocence)
“There was, however, irrefutable proof that, just before killing President Kennedy, Oswald had traveled to Mexico under a false identity and there had secretly met with 'Comrade Kostin,' aka Valery Kostikov, a diplomatic official assigned to the Soviet Embassy. Kostikov has been identified by the CIA as an officer of the KGB's Thirteenth Department (assassinations abroad), which became known in KGB jargon as the Department for Wet Affairs ( wet meaning bloody). There is also irrefutable evidence that Oswald's Soviet wife, Marina, had been in touch with the Soviet Embassy in the United States and that she concealed evidence from US authorities confirming her husband's secret trip to Mexico and meeting there with the KGB officer Valery Kostikov.

Page 213 -
“As was normal, the Soviet general did not elaborate on the details of the operation that had ended with the downing of the U-2 … . A few weeks after the U-2 plane had been shot down [May 1, 1960], however, the DIE's razvedka [foreign intelligence] advisers added a new wrinkle to their constant refrain about our need to recruit a serzhant[military person]—now we were also told to start looking for a 'defector.'

“… Soon after President Kennedy was shot, however, we began focusing on the adviser's recommendation about a defector. To our surprise we learned that before defecting to Moscow Lee Harvey Oswald had been stationed as a radar operator at the supersecret Atsugi Air Base outside of Tokyo, and that some of the U-2 planes that flew over the Soviet Union took off from that Marine base.”

++++++++++

Mario, since there are 9 pages total, I put the entire post at the bottom of the page titled “Soil & Birth Eligibility Requirements"

( http://originalbirtherdocument3.blogspot.com/ )

The jpeg picture with the John Jay thank-you note to George Washington with "born" underlined is there. I don't remember the picture source for the jpeg.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Unknown said...

Natural citizens and citizens are not eligible in A2, i only see a natural born citizen is eligible now. Maybe the US Constitution i am reading is not legit. A2 does not explicitly say russians, kenyans, british colonial subjects and martians are not eligible now but i will assume they are not because only a natural born citizen is in A2

Unknown said...

I think the evidence is overwhelming that lbj, cia, allen dulles, bush sr etc had jfk killed and even jackie and e howard hunt said same thing about lbj but i am just a crazy birther who thinks that the child of a alien cannot be a natural born citizen. Thanks for at least reading morrow art and you may want to read Philip Nelsons book as well about LBJ. I would also like to thank mario for being such a professional even though he gets attacked by obots and has to suffer thru judges like masin and bent twisting what a nbc really is

ajtelles said...

Dittos Leo...

>> "I would also like to thank mario for being such a professional
>> "even though he gets attacked by obots
>> "and has to suffer thru judges like masin and bent
>> "twisting what a nbc really is"


Leo, I'm sure you will agree that Mario can handle the O-birthers with half his brain tied behind his back, as Rush Limbaugh might say, and he can adequately defend his analysis of the history surrounding the perpetual original intent meaning of "natural born Citizen" as John Jay intended that it be perpetually defended.

If we listen closely, we can even hear John Jay saying "dittos Mario", and "write" on.

John Jay was an "original birther" who knew what words meant and he said what he meant, explicitly and implicitly.

- - - - - - - - - -

The Oliver Stone movie "JFK" is a very well produced and acted movie that is almost persuasive, but, not being fully persuasive about the multiple organizations being in on the JFK hit, the CIA, FBI, Secret Service, military-industrial complex, Mafia, LBJ, it is not convincing. Using Ockham's razor as a "complexity" guide, I am now more inclined to accept Ion Pacepa's contention that Oswald, who had been trained by the KGB, was, using my words, not Pacepa's, Oswald was a patsy of only ONE organization, the 1960s Soviet KGB, and not the CIA, FBI, and the multiple organizations.

Here are two reasons.

"Four days after ... ."
"The day after ... ."


>> "Page 231 -
>> "Chapter 31 – Operation “Dragon”)

>> “On November 26, 1963,
>> "four days after President Kennedy was killed,
>> "… we in the DIE [Romanian intelligence] learned
>> "that the KGB had already launched a worldwide disinformation operation
>> "aimed at diverting public attention away from Moscow
>> "in respect to the Kennedy assassination,
>> "and at framing the CIA as the culprit.”


>> "Page 241 -
>> "Chapter 32 – New Hard Proof Of The KGB's Hand)

>> “The first piece of irrefutable evidence
>> "proving the KGB had launched a disinformation offensive
>> "with respect to the Kennedy assassination
>> "aimed at diverting public attention away from Moscow
>> "was released by Boris Yeltsin, Russia's first freely elected president.
>> "In his memoir, The Struggle for Russia,
>> "Yeltsin revealed a letter
>> "to the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
>> "dated November 23, 1963
>> "—the day after Kennedy's assassination ... ."


To me, the Ockhams's razor simple explanation is that the disinformation effort started when the single Soviet KGB organization started to frame the many American organizations, CIA, FBI, Secret Service, military-industrial complex, including the Mafia, as the guilty organizations, AND LBJ, as the guilty person who had the most to gain by the death of JFK.

Oswald was definitely a "patsy" of somebody, either the CIA or the KGB, and the KGB "disinformation" effort, whether or not it is agreed that the KGB instigated the “disinformation” effort, the “disinformation” that started the day after Kennedy was assassinated has successfully pinned the tail on the donkey, the CIA; the movie “JFK” says so.

So, Leo, the natural question is, to paraphrase the Ghost Busters when they asked, “who ya gonna call”, “who ya gonna believe”? Oliver Stone or Ion Pacepa? Are we to believe Oliver Stone in the movie JFK, who was not involved in the “disinformation” effort to blame the CIA? Are we to believe Ion Pacepa and the DIE (Romanian intelligence), who was involved in the Soviet “disinformation” effort to blame the CIA and indemnify the Soviet KGB?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document

ajtelles said...

Marco Rubio in 2016...

Mario, your work as national tutor about "natural born Citizen" is not done yet, and it won't be finished until the conservatives, Democratic and Republican "conservatives", stand up to also defend John Jay's original intent for "natural born Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/05/sen-marco-rubio-yes-im-ready-to-be-president/

"Sen. Marco Rubio: Yes, I’m Ready to be President"

"He’s a 42-year-old freshman senator, but when asked by Jonathan Karl on “This Week” if he’s ready to be president, Republican Sen. Marco Rubio of Florida answered without hesitation.

“I do ...

"I mean, I’ll be 43 this month, but the other thing that perhaps people don’t realize, I’ve served now in public office for the better part of 14 years,” said Rubio. ... ."

- - - - - - - - - -

Well, now that people "realize" that Sen. Rubio's has served 14 years in public office, and that is so much better than only 18 months as US Senator for BHObama, so, the original intent of Article II should not hinder Sen. Rubio either.

Also, Mario, any defender of the original intent of "natural born Citizen" as ONLY meaning being born on US soil with ONLY TWO US citizen married parents can expect to be called "anti-immigrant", which will replace the "racist" appellation of the Obama-birthers.

The more things change, the more they stay the same—different day, different name, same story.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Unknown said...

Nice to know rubio is ready but he is not eligible. Art, i believe jackie kennedy, e howard hunt and lbj mistress madeliene brown, all of whom said lbj and cia did it. When nixon was talking about the texans and the bay of pigs thing on watergate tapes he was referring to bush sr and jfk assassination. Bush sr broke out in AHS and blanked himself to death upon hearing about the "bay of pigs thing" on watergate tapes. Nixon wanted the fbi to know it would be bad for country if that was opened up. I think there were at least 2 shooters because jfk was shot in throat, right side of skull and in back. Billy sol estes had his lawyer write a letter to doj or fbi saying lbj had 11 people murdered including jfk. This was back in 1984. Oliver stone is not only one saying warren comm was a sham. It is incredible that lho was killed by ruby who had ties to nixon

Robert said...

If Rubio, Cruz and any other non eligible contenders had any true patriotism, they would simply explain that, while they are honored to be considered for the office of POTUS, they can't because they are not eligible.

This would immediately rid us of Obama and all he has done and provide the foundation for a return to the Constitution which all Presidents are sworn to Preserve, Protect, and Defend against all enemiess foreign and domestic.

So, as much as any of these folks think they might accomplish as President, they can accomplish a lot more by simply being Patriots and putting the country above their egos.

PS - AJ - Many years ago I worked with a lady whose father was close friends with on of the surgeons who operated on JFK. She related that the surgeon had told her father that JFK was shot from two different directions with two calibres of ammunition.

Unknown said...

Rubio and cruz should come out and say they are not eligible, explain why they are not and then say if a2 is amended and allows a citizen of the us to be President then they will run but we know that will never happen. CIA started project mockingbird as a way of controlling media and we will not see minor v happersett mentioned on the msm anytime soon

ajtelles said...

Leo and Robert...

I understand your points clearly.

The disinformation campaign by the Soviet KGB worked very well. Everything points to the complex scenario, to the multiple American organizations, and away from the simple scenario, the single Soviet organization.

As Gen. Ion Pacepa said in his book, Disinformation: Former Spy Chief Reveals Secret Strategies for Undermining Freedom, Attacking Religion, and Promoting Terrorism, the Soviet disinformation effort started the day after Kennedy's assassination.

In my own words, not Pacepa's, after Khrushchev changed his mind about killing Kennedy, Oswald went solo and the KGB set him up as their "patsy", and set him up to be apprehended at the theater where he thought he would be meeting with a KGB contact, just as he had in Mexico City.

The Soviet KGB intelligence community, with whom Oswald has been factually and explicitly tied (for example, Kostikov, Oswald's KGB Department Thirteen contact in Mexico City) the Soviet KGB was innocent, and the entire American intelligence community was the ONLY guilty party, including the CIA, FBI, Secret Service, military-industrial complex, the Mafia, LBJ, various individuals, and etc., etc., etc.

Of course, the doctors at Parkland Hospital were not complicit, they were simply following military orders to protect American interests which were in no way involved with KGB disinformation. At Parkland Hospital in Texas, USA is where the "conspiracy" by our guys kicked into high gear, and they did not even know that the KGB disinformation campaign was to begin the next day in Moscow.

THAT is a bona fide USA intelligence community conspiracy, and it has nothing to do with the "disinformation" effort of the Soviet KGB that Gen. Pacepa writes about in his book Disinformation, that started the day after Kennedy was assassinated.

So, we're basically on the same page. Who ya gonna believe, the USA intelligence community conspiracy crowd, or the Soviet intelligence community "disinformation" effort by the KGB?

Well, maybe both?

Maybe, in a mysterious and serendipitous twist, Oswald was a “patsy” of both the CIA-FBI and ALSO the KGB. Maybe the KGB turned Oswald and then maybe the CIA took advantage of Oswald. When Oswald shouted out “I'm just a patsy” at the jail, we can all agree. Yep, he was.

Art
US Constitution
The Original Birther Document

ajtelles said...

Dittos Leo and Robert...

As you wrote Robert -

>>If Rubio, Cruz and any other non eligible contenders had any true patriotism,
>> they would simply explain that,
>> while they are honored to be considered for the office of POTUS,
>> they can't because they are not eligible."


- - - - - - - - - -

As you wrote Leo -

>> Rubio and cruz should come out and say they are not eligible,
>> explain why they are not
>> and then say if a2 is amended
>> and allows a citizen of the us to be President
>> then they will run
>> but we know that will never happen."


- - - - - - - - - -

This is what I wrote last year on my blog on the page titled "BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers"
>> http://originalbirtherdocument7.blogspot.com/


>> “I decline the Office of POTUS
>> “to DEFEND the Office of POTUS”

>> “I am giving up pursuit of the Office of the President because I am a ‘Citizen’
>> “I have chosen to SAVE the Office of the President for a ‘natural born Citizen’”

~ ~ ~

[...]

>> “We the People” of America would definitely continue to listen to and act on the words of a “truth speaker” like Sen. Ted Cruz if he were to publicly acknowledge that the original intent of the original birthers and original authors who wrote the words “natural born Citizen” are STILL relevant and important for OUR posterity also.

>> “We the People” of America would continue to listen to a “truth speaker” who would give up an office with such great honor and respect like the Office of the President for the purpose of protecting the Office of the President.

>> The whole WORLD would listen to a truth speaker whenever she or he would speak about anything because he or she would be known to speak ‘bold colors—not pale pastels’ truth to ‘We the People’ in a way similar to President George Washington, President Abraham Lincoln, President Ronald Reagan, and the proof would be in the historical fact that they had given up something of great honor and respect in order to adhere to the original intent of the original birthers who knew who AND why ONLY a “natural born Citizen” is “... eligible to the Office of the President.”

- - - - - - - - - -

Who knows, Robert and Leo, maybe some GREAT day Sen. Cruz or Sen. Rubio or maybe even BOTH, will STAND Up and SPEAK Up and make an original intent speech and say something like this –

ORIGINAL INTENT COMMON SENSE

>> Yes, after studying the Original Words of the U.S. Constitution,
>> the Original Document of American President Soil and Birth eligibility;
>> after analyzing
>> the original intent
>> of the original words
>> of the original birthers
>> aka the original authors of
>> Article 2 Section 1 Clause 5;
>> after considering original intent
>> relevance to the authors of the words
>> natural born Citizen and "…or a Citizen"
"" I now understand that original intent means
>> I am definitely not a Clause 5 "…or a Citizen."
>> I am not a Clause 5 natural born Citizen by birth.
>> I am not Clause 5 eligible to be President of America.
>> I am not U.S. Soil Born with two U.S. Citizen Parents.

>> U.S. Soil Born
>> U.S. Citizen Parents

COMMON SENSE ORIGINAL INTENT

~ ~ ~

When will possible POTUS aspirants Sen. Cruz and Sen. Rubio and et alii stand for truth and the original intent of Article II Section 1 Clause 5? When will Sen. Cruz and Sen. Rubio stand with John Jay and his explicitly stated “natural born Citizen” original intent of protecting America by protecting executive office control of the US military... against ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic?

Art
US Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the Union

Unknown said...

I know cruz and rubio never will say they are not NBCs but they would be real heroes to much of the brain dead country and remembered as patriots by honest historians but they have chosen to play the game. A honorable man would tell the truth about himself and obama. They are ignoring We the People and it makes me gag when they mention the Constitution and forget A2 on purpose. Cruz said he will let other people decide if he is a NBC instead of manning up and saying he is not one.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art, Robert, and Leo,

There is no doubt that de facto President Barack Obama, Senator Ted Cruz, and Senator Marco Rubio are not Article II natural born citizens. While the Framers did not define a natural born citizen in the Constitution (they were not expected to), they told us who a natural born citizen was through the early Congress. Congress’s early naturalization acts (1790, 1795, 1802) provided for potential naturalization for all adults and children except for those who were born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents. Hence, only persons born under such birth circumstances, not needing any form of naturalization, including naturalization at birth or after birth, were the natural born citizens. Thus, these acts confirmed the common law definition of a natural born citizen which was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Obama, Cruz, and Rubio, none of whom were born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, if born during the time those acts were in effect would have needed naturalization under those acts. Hence, the Framers did not view them as natural born citizens.

The Fourteenth Amendment did away with the need for naturalization for children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents. Under the amendment, no longer were such children compelled to wait for their parents’ naturalization or their own naturalization upon becoming adults in order to become citizens of the United States after birth. Under the new amendment, such children were automatically made citizens of the United States at birth. But the amendment did not amend Article II and the natural born citizen clause. Hence, the definition of a natural born citizen continued undisturbed.

So if Obama, Cruz, and Rubio were born before the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified they would have needed naturalization under the naturalization acts of Congress. They surely then could not have been natural born citizens. But even with the Fourteenth Amendment in place, neither Obama nor Rubio (being born out of the United States, the Fourteenth Amendment does not apply to Cruz) gain any advantage regarding whether they are natural born citizens, for that amendment did not change the meaning of a natural born citizen. This means that they too, like Cruz, continued not to be natural born citizens.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 provides:

“No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.”

So, Obama, Cruz, and Rubio born well after the adoption of the Constitution, are a little too late. In an Article II constitutional sense, Obama, Cruz, or Rubio are neither a “natural born Citizen, [n]or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.” Hence, all three are not eligible to be President.

ajtelles said...

“let other people decide”...

Leo, on May 13, 2014 at 4:15 PM you wrote -
[...]
>> "A honorable man would tell the truth about himself and obama.
>> "Cruz said
>> "he will let other people decide
>> "if he is a NBC
>> "instead of manning up
>> "and saying he is not one."


- - - - - - - - - -

>> "Cruz said
>> "he will let other people decide
>> "if he is a NBC ..."


Leo, that is an excellent point.

I have 2 questions for Senator Cruz.
Who gets to “decide” if he is OR is not a “natural born Citizen?”

If somebody said he WAS an nbC, say potential POTUS aspirant Sen. Marco Rubio or Gov. Nikki Haley or BIG Talker Mark Levin or BIG Talker Glenn Beck or BIG Talker Sean Hannity, etc., and if somebody else said he was NOT an nbC, say potential POTUS aspirant Sen. Rand Paul or potential POTUS aspirant former Gov. Sarah Palin or BIG Talker Rush Limbaugh, etc., with whom would Sen. Cruz agree?

Question #1 -
Will Sen. Cruz let other people decide that he IS a “natural born Citizen” and IS eligible to be POTUS if Sen. Cruz knows that he definitely is NOT an nbC?

Question #2 -
Will Sen. Cruz let other people decide that he is NOT a “natural born Citizen” and is NOT eligible to be POTUS if Sen. Cruz knows that he definitely IS an nbC?

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, on May 13, 2014 at 5:53 PM, you wrote -
>> “So if Obama, Cruz, and Rubio
>> “were born before the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified
>> “they would have needed naturalization under the naturalization acts of Congress.
>> “They surely then could not have been natural born citizens.


- - - - - - - - - -

Mario and Leo, I wonder who in the msm BIG Media, which radio BIG Talker(s), Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity, Levin, Ingraham, etc., and which web BIG Blogger(s), MichelleMalkin.com, HotAir.com, Breitbart.com, TheBlaze.com, Salon.com, HuffingtonPost.com, WND.com, etc., will help Sen. Cruz, my favorite senator from my current state of residence, Texas, to focus his heart, his thoughts, and his informed and honest constitutional answer?

Here are 2 public question for ALL of the msm BIG Media, the radio BIG Talkers and the web BIG Bloggers.

1 - Do YOU know which of the two questions Sen. Cruz would approve, which he would reject?

2 - Do YOU know whom HE would let decide whether or not he is Article II Section 1 Clause 5 “... eligible to the Office of the President?”

2a - Do YOU know if he would let the decision be that he IS a “natural born Citizen” and IS eligible to be POTUS if Sen. Cruz knows that he definitely is NOT an nbC?

2b - Do YOU know if he would let the decision be that he is NOT a “natural born Citizen” and is NOT eligible to be POTUS if Sen. Cruz knows that he definitely IS an nbC?

- - - - - - - - - -

ORIGINAL INTENT COMMON SENSE

If Sen. Cruz is the statesman that he presents himself as, and the statesman that I think he is, maybe he will some GREAT day say something like this:

After studying the Original Words of the
U.S. Constitution, the Original Document of
American President Soil and Birth Eligibility
~ ~ ~
After analyzing
the original intent
of the original words
of the original birthers
the original “Framers” of
Article II Section 1 Clause 5
~ ~ ~
After considering original intent
relevance to the authors of the words
“natural born Citizen” and “or a Citizen”
~ ~ ~
I now understand that original intent means
I am definitely not an Article II “or a Citizen”
I am not an Article II natural born Citizen by birth
I am not Article II eligible to be President of America
I am not U.S. Soil Born with TWO U.S. Citizen Parents

U.S. Soil Born
Two U.S. Citizen Parents


COMMON SENSE ORIGINAL INTENT


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the Union

Unknown said...

You should contact his office Art like others have. Ted Cruz will never mention minor v happersett or say he is not eligible. Chief Justice Waite already described a NBC back in 1800s so ted can look to what Waite wrote in minor. I did not see any mention of a child of a alien and citizen born outside of country being a native or nbc.

ajtelles said...

"contact his office"...

Leo, I could contact Sen. Cruz's Texas office, but that would be a one-time contact. I have been doing something much better, and hopefully in time it will be more productive.

In posting on other forums, I include the url to Mario's blog. The two urls I have chosen to refer to are Mario's first post on December 20, 2008, and the 11 part tutorial posted on October 28, 2012.

Saturday, December 20, 2008
THE TWO CONSTITUTIONAL OBSTACLES OBAMA HAS TO OVERCOME TO BE PRESIDENT
>> http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2012/10/barack-obama-is-ineligible-to-be.html

Sunday, October 28, 2012
>> "Barack Obama Is Ineligible to be President,
>> "For He Is Neither a “Natural Born Citizen”
>> "Nor a “Citizen of the United States,
>> "at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution”
>> http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2012/10/barack-obama-is-ineligible-to-be.html

Leo, with the msm BIG Media sycophanting for BHObama, and the radio BIG Talkers and the web BIG Bloggers maintaining their radio silence and their keyboard silence about the perpetual relevance of "natural born Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, our work continues.

If the Democratic and Republican political elites, including ALL of the potential POTUS aspirants, stay away from discussing the original intent of ALL of the U.S. Constitution, NOT just Article V, our work continues.

If the BIG Talkers and the BIG Bloggers do not even take the time to educate themselves about the original intent of "natural born Citizen" as John Jay intended, our work continues.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

oops...

Mario, the correct url for the first post on Saturday, December 20, 2008, titled

THE TWO CONSTITUTIONAL OBSTACLES OBAMA HAS TO OVERCOME TO BE PRESIDENT

is

>> http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2008/12/two-constitutional-obstacles-obama-has.html

BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers... WAKE UP AMERICA!!!

Art
U.S. Constitution
The OriginalBirtherDocument

Unknown said...

Jindal was talking about converting from a hindu to a Christian in HS after talking to a classmate and now he is a evangelical catholic, whatever that is. He was thinking about running for president in the article and now that he has seen the light i am sure he will declare himself ineligible being the child of aliens. Actually, he is being a smarmy politician and using God to get votes like barry i am a Christian yet support abortion obama. Dishonesty is not exactly a Christian virtue and if he really does believe in God then he will say he is not eligible and explain why. This will never happen but i will be happy if he proves me wrong.

Justin said...

I have a question. Maybe it's been answered but there are 2000 comments!

Could the US government pass a law granting everyone born anywhere in the world US citizenship after the date the law takes effect?

Slartibartfast said...

Justin,

Absolutely. And that's a problem for birthers as any other sovereign nation could do the same thing and then, according to birthers who believe someone with dual citizenship is ineligible, no one could be president.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Justin,

Slartibartfast is wrong again. The status of being a natural born citizen is not destroyed by some foreign nation making such a U.S. citizen the citizen of that nation also. His position is as absurd as a foreign nation passing a law declaring that from some moment in time there shall no longer exist any natural born citizens of the United States. Allow me to explain how your world citizen would play out.

Citizenship is membership in a nation. Citizenship brings with it duties and rights. In the history of the civilized world, citizenship has been conferred upon someone based on one of two basic principles called jus sanguinis and jus soli. The former describes citizenship inherited from one’s parents. The latter describes citizenship acquired from the place of one’s birth.

In the United States, a natural born citizen is one who satisfies both of these means of obtaining citizenship as prescribed by constitutional national common law, i.e., one who is born in the country to parents were its citizens at the time of one’s birth.

A born citizen is one who by positive or municipal law (not common law but rather the Fourteenth Amendment or Acts of Congress) acquires citizenship by either one of the two methods, i.e., either born in the country (the Fourteenth Amendment) or born to citizen parents (Acts of Congress).

The United States has also granted citizenship to children neither born in the country nor born to citizen parents. These children acquire their citizenship after birth and only by either, their parents voluntarily becoming through naturalization “citizens of the United States” after birth when their child is still a minor, or upon the minor becoming an adult voluntarily naturalizing on his or her own.

The United States or any nation can always through its positive and municipal laws add more to its citizens. But whatever it does, that person will also be a citizen of another nation, i.e., either the nation representing the place of his or her birth or the nation of one or both of his or her parents. The complicating factor is when any one of these nations will have to provide its citizens the benefits and protection that come with its citizenship and when it will demand that its citizen perform the duties that come with that citizenship, benefits, and protection. At that point, the person with multiple citizenships will have to choose which nation to accept as his or her nation. This can be a problem when it comes to the political, economic, tax, and military realm, just to name a few.

Regardless of what forms of statutory citizenship the United States may create, none of those forms will change the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. If the United States wanted to change its definition of a natural born citizen, it would have to do that through a constitutional amendment. That has never been done in our history and so the same constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen still prevails today which is a child born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child's birth.

ajtelles said...

"pass a law"...

No, Slartibartfast, aka S...fast, you know better than to "peep and mutter" your Obama birth narrative and Obama-birther disinformation so blatantly here on Mario's "natural born Citizen" blog.

Sheesh, man. S...fast, have you no original intent common sense?

On May 17, 2014 at 1:14 PM, Justin asked a very honest question.

>> "Could the US government
>> "pass a law
>> "granting
>> "everyone
>> "born anywhere in the world
>> "US citizenship
>> "after the date the law takes effect?"


On May 17, 2014 at 4:40 PM,
S...fast deliberately obfuscated with blatantly absurd disinformation.

>> "Justin,
>> "Absolutely.
>> "And that's a problem for birthers
>> "as any other sovereign nation could do the same thing
>> "and then, according to birthers
>> "who believe someone with dual citizenship is ineligible,
>> "no one could be president."


- - - - - - - - - -

Justin, S...fast is not "funnin'" you, S...fast is deliberately misleading you. As a self-proclaimed PhD. mathematician, he definitely knows better.

S...fast says "absolutely" without explaining the absurdity of the administrators of OUR government deliberately undermining the sovereignty of you, Jason, a U.S. citizen, and S...fast, a U.S. citizen, and the sovereignty of ALL Obama-birthers who defend the Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POTUS, and ALL original intent birthers, defenders of the John Jay inspired insight that our national security demands that a POTUS aspirant must ONLY be born on U.S. soil and ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

When John Jay sent his note to George Washington and underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen," he obviously did so with the implicit "from birth" presupposition, and with the implicit presupposition that the birth MUST be ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

S...fast, your analysis is simply too silly, man.

Are you so "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama Obotized that you would give up your sovereignty so easily, and without a fight you would blame the original intent birthers of what, wanting to defend John Jays original birther insight to protect America's national security against ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic?

Sheesh, S...fast, maybe posting short blurbs at ObamaConspiracy.org is making you intellelectually lazy.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The "Original Birther Document" of the Union

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

I have never thought that birth citizenship in another country destroys natural born citizenship---that's something that birther's argue. Chester Arthur's English subjecthood, Spiro Agnew's Greek citizenship, President Obama's English/Kenyan citizenship, Rafael Cruz's Canadian and possibly Cuban citizenship, Mario Rubio's Cuban citizenship, Bobby Jindal's Indian citizenship---none of these are relevant in determining whether or not these people are natural born US citizens (they all are). If it were otherwise, the answer to Justin's question (which is unquestionably "yes"---they could even make it effective retroactively, as has been done with naturalization statutes in the past) would lead to contradictions and absurdities.

Robert said...

S..fast,
So, are you arguing that any person can claim to be a natural born citizen of any nation he chooses (even without the consent of that nation) regardless of his parentage or place of birth and that any nation can claim any person as their own citizen/subject (even without the consent of that person) just by the simple passing of a law?

Please show me where you got the idea that this is what the founders believed. According to their writings it would appear that they understood that a natural born citizen is one born in the country to married citizen parents. The only exceptions I've seen are those born away, but under complete US jurisdiction.

Then, in the case of Mr. Obama, please explain which nations would accept as a natural born citizen (cite laws, please) a person born in an unknown place to a foreign or unknown father and an underage mother with no right to pass on citizenship to her child if born abroad; who has claimed foreign birth and foreign citizenship; who has presented false documents regarding his place of birth and identity; and who has traveled under a foreign passport.

You say you are a mathematician. Yet, your legal argument sounds like, "A2 + B2 = C2, but you can ignore B if you find it troublesome."

Ray said...

Try looking up the law, Slartibartfast.

Obama (stipulating to facts not proven and which are highly dubious), Cruz, Jindal, and Rubio are each, in law, "citizen".

Barack Obama is reputed to have be born August 4, 1961, in Honolulu, Hawaii to a US citizen mother and a Kenyan citizen (British subject) father. Relevant law August 4, 1961 is Pub. L. 82-414 § 301(a)(1). Obama is, in law, "citizen".

Ted Cruz was born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, December 22, 1970, to a US citizen mother and a Cuban citizen father. Relevant law December 22, 1970 is Pub. L. 82-414 § 301(a)(7). Cruz is, in law, "citizen".

Piyush "Bobby" Jindal was born June 10, 1971 in Baton Rouge, Louisiana to Amar and Raj Jindal. Amar and Raj Jindal entered the United States Feb 1, 1971 as permanent legal residents. Bobby Jindal’s parents were not U.S. citizens when their son was born, they were both permanent legal residents at the time of his birth. Jindal’s mother became a U.S. citizen Sept. 21, 1976, and his father became a U.S. citizen on Dec. 4, 1986. Relevant law June 10, 1971 is Pub. L. 82-414 § 301(a)(1). Jindal is, in law, "citizen".

<> Scenario 1 - Stipulating to the prevailing abuse of "jurisdiction", citizenship is acquired by Amend XIV
<> Scenario 2 - Citizenship was acquired upon the naturalization of his parents

By either scenario Jindal is, in law, "citizen".

Marco Rubio was born in Miami, Florida, May 28, 1971, to Mario Rubio and Oria Garcia, both Cuban citizens who naturalized as US citizens on Nov. 5, 1975. Relevant law May 28, 1971 is Pub. L. 82-414 § 301(a)(1). Rubio is, in law, "citizen".

<> Scenario 1 - Stipulating to the prevailing abuse of "jurisdiction", citizenship is acquired by Amend XIV
<> Scenario 2 - Citizenship was acquired upon the naturalization of his parents

By either scenario Rubio is, in law, "citizen".

The law applicable to each of these persons could have been written such that any of them would be, in law, "natural born citizen", but it was not. Each of these persons is, in law, "citizen".

ajtelles said...

"obot" definition...

Ray and Robert, Slartibartfast, aka S...fast will never give you a direct answer.

Consider S...fast's "obot" definition, posted on April 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM, that I responded to on April 3, 2014 at 11:38 PM, on April 4, 2014 at 1:49 AM, on April 6, 2014 at 10:08 PM, and to which S...fast has not yet and never will respond.

S...FASt wrote -

>> "... the obot position is that either native birth OR one citizen parent* is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both. ... ."

>> "* possibly subject to statutory qualifications."


- - - - - - - - - -

On April 3 I responded with this partial quote -

>> "S...fast, doncha have anything more than an either/or appetizer with an *asterisk?

>> "Instead, S...fast, you finger-wag for what?
>> "For not agreeing with you and the Obama Obirthers
>> "who persist in positioning, aka "framing," BHO
>> "as a "natural born Citizen" with ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent
>> "whether OR not he was born on U.S. soil?

>> "Is THAT your either/or point?

>> 'and the obot position is that
>> 'either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> 'is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both.'


>> "S..fast, are you absolutely sure that the "theory" of "either ... OR ... not both"
>> "expresses the 1787 original intent of John Jay
>> "in his suggestion to George Washington that,
>> "to add a buffer to protect control of the executive office >> "and control of the military
>> "from FOREIGN influence,
>> "access to the presidency should include a higher and more difficult hurdle to contend with
>> "than a simple ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?"

Well, Ray and Robert, we're still waiting for S...fast to respond with original intent common sense.

S...fast's Obama birth narrative response to Jason is indicative of the general Obama-birther mind-set that disregards the original intent of the original birthers, Founders, Framers and Ratifiers, specifically John Jay.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The "Original Birther Document" of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Dear Slarti, chew on this:

from: The Statutes at Large from the Magna Charta [to the End of the Eleventh Parliament of Great Britain, Anno 1761 (continued to 1806)], Volume 19
Authors Danby Pickering
Publisher J. Bentham, 1765

~the statute says that these [naturalized] foreigners: “shall be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be his Majesty’s natural-born subjects of this kingdom, to all intents, constructions, and purposes as if they and every of them had been, or were born within this kingdom ”

That is devastating to the Obot position which claims that “natural-born subject” is directly analogous to “natural-born citizen”.

They fantasize that that means any citizen by birth; -nothing more, nothing less. And yet they fail to recognize that the British phrase INCLUDED naturalized subjects.

They don’t and wouldn’t dare claim that “natural-born citizen” includes naturalized citizens.
Thus, the foundation of their own dogma disproves itself.
The terms are unrelated.

Also, you can’t underline, as John Jay did, the word “born” if it is preceded by a hyphen. You can only do that if it is NOT preceded by a hyphen and the individual words can be addressed individually, -not as a unitary legal-fiction term-of-artifice phrase. Seems like a case of being hoisted on your own petard.

But it is even worse still since their dogma states that native-birth is not required, -only citizenship from birth. And yet the British system absolutely required native-birth first and foremost.
There's no reconciling the two. Just as the Americans threw out "subject", they also threw out "natural-born" with its inherently British, monarchy oriented meaning.

They adopted only natural law and the words that convey citizenship by descent with nothing adulterating it, -including native birth.
A.Nash

Anonymous said...

Slarti & Unknown have a problem:

The conundrum for the obots is that the actual usage of “natural-born subject” disproves the accepted asinine Maskellian view that it is a direct counterpart to natural born citizen when it is in fact the opposite.
The former was created as a catch-all INCLUSIVE term that made all unnatural subjects seem just as legitimate as natives, thereby working to support equal treatment.

But the framers were seeking just the opposite of inclusion; their aim was EXCLUSION. Hence they didn’t state that “ANY PERSON is eligible to the office…” but instead “NO PERSON…”, meaning “NO CITIZEN” except a natural citizen by birth.

The currently accepted dogma of the meaning of NBC is pure heresy to its actual meaning since it includes the alien-born who cannot be trusted as a group.

The clause was not written to allow exceptions based on the wise determination of select men, it is an across the board ban that allows for no exceptions.
But the Constitution is passe. We are in the post-Constitution era, and presidential eligibility is now a relative thing, -relative to whatever a candidate needs it to mean.
Just watch and see if at least one ineligible Republican doesn't run late next year. What will obots think if such a person is noticeably ahead of the Dems candidate? Complain or stay silent as they are so well accustomed to do?

Anonymous said...

Slarti wrote: "I have never thought that birth citizenship in another country destroys natural born citizenship--"

So by that statement you are showing that you are either very deceitful or very stupid, -or are deceitful by being willingly stupid.

You pretend that you can throw around words that have no meaning and yet when you use them they magically are crystal clear.
Please explain in depth exactly, precisely what "birth citizenship" is and what dictionary it can be found in.

One can be born as a citizen by natural political inheritance from citizen parents, or one can be born with citizenship as a gift of government.
And yet you want us to pretend with you that only one of the two exists? That there is no difference? That citizenship conferred as a gift for native-born aliens is indistinguishable from citizenship that is NOT conferred by government but is NATURAL?

And besides those two, there are the cases of parental split nationality and the laws that address a child born to them. But such fundamental differences can be simply brushed aside as if of no consequence?

What planet are you living on? Planet Stupid? Or Planet Confusion?
Even adding a hyphen as in "natural-born citizen" can't save your brain-dead dogma since "natural-born subjects" included naturalized foreigners.

Please stick your foolish head out the window and shout that naturalized Americans, by inherited British policy, are natural born citizens. That is what your dogma is asserting, so why not simply acknowledge that fact? And thus expose yourself to the ridicule you so rightly deserve.

You need to educate yourself and learn to stop lying to yourself and everyone else.

Anonymous said...

Ray wrote: The law applicable to each of these persons could have been written such that any of them would be, in law, "natural born citizen", but it was not. Each of these persons is, in law, "citizen".

While true, that would not be constitutional. Congress can pass any darn thing that it wants, as we saw with the ACA but it cannot rewrite the meaning of natural born citizen because the meaning is found in the words themselves and Congress cannot redefine the meaning of words when those words have a constitutional meaning.

The only persons that Congress can legitimately label as natural born citizens are those who actually are. That is what the first Congress did in order to secure the natural right of Americans born abroad to serve as President.

Their right was left dangling in the wind in the Constitution, -unaddressed and thus vulnerable to British educated jurist who were too backward to understand that the nation's new federal nationality policy was based on natural law, not royal law, parliamentary law, nor common law.

Learn more (just posted): Six Models of Nationality; Borders versus Bonds of Blood

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/05/18/six-models-of-nationality-borders-versus-bonds-of-blood/

Unknown said...

At the U.S. Supreme Court this morning, Paige v. Vermont made the CERTIORARI DENIED list.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/orders/courtorders/051914zor_fdhk.pdf

Slartibartfast said...

Geeze you guys, Justin asked a hypothetical question and I answered it honestly and correctly - Congress could pass such a law and it would not be unConstitutional. The olny point I was making was that, because this is true of any sovereign nation, you can't be disqualified from natural born citizenship due to citizenship in any other nation.

Anyway, it's a beautiful. Day in our nation's capitol where, just down the street, Mario's frivolous case was circular filed earlier today. I'm about to have lunch with a friend at a chinese place on M street - enjoy gnawing on your own liver.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I do not know why you are so happy with the U.S. Supreme Court deciding not to grant our petition for a writ of certiorari. What a shame to see the U.S. Supreme Court not declare the H. Brooke Paige Vermont ballot case is not moot and take up the opportunity to legitimize the usurped presidencies of Chester Arthur and Barack Obama, which will go down in history with ineligibility asterisks. Without any doubt, as the constitutional law stands today, they are both not natural born citizens under the common law to which the Framers looked when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). That common law provided and still provides the one and only definition of an Article II “natural born citizen” which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Both Arthur and Obama failed to satisfy this definition, are not natural born citizens, and therefore not eligible to be President.

Slartibartfast, maybe you can ask you friends during your dinner what you propose to do about this unfortunate situation.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Here is a very good article written by Devvy Kidd on May 19, 2014, entitled, PREZ RUN: RUBIO, JINDAL & CRUZ ALL CONSTITUTIONALLY INELIGIBLE, accessed at http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd636.htm .

Devvy understands that there is a clear and obvious constitutional difference between a “born citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress and a “natural born citizen” under constitutional national common law and that therefore not all born citizens are natural born citizens. She clearly understand that of the citizens at birth, as Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) explain, only those who were born in the United States to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child' birth are natural born citizens.

She also clearly understands that de facto President Barack Obama, Senator Ted Cruz, Senator Marco Rubio, and Governor Bobby Jindal, all not being born in the United States to two U.S. citizen parents, can be born citizens (Obama only if he can conclusively prove that he was born in the United States) under the Fourteenth Amendment (all of them except Cruz who needs a naturalization Act of Congress), but they cannot be natural born citizens under the national common law to which the Framers looked for their definition of a natural born citizen when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. All of them, like de facto President Chester Arthur, are therefore not eligible to be President.
Read Devvy’s article and comment if you like.

ajtelles said...

"Geeze you guys"...

Slartibartfast wrote on May 19, 2014 at 11:59 AM -

>> "Geeze you guys,
>> "Justin asked a hypothetical question
>> "and I answered it honestly and correctly -
>> "Congress could pass such a law
>> "and it would not be unConstitutional."


- - - - - - - - - -

Geeze, S...fast, are you absolutely sure that your "absolutely" response to Jason is original intent correct?

S..., do you really think that the administrators of OUR government are so stupid that they would naturalize ALL citizens of the world?

Sheese, what am I saying?

With progressives, collectivists, aka stealth jihad "transformers" of the U.S. Constitution as current administrators of OUR government, if U.S. naturalization of the entire world were to be proposed by this current crop of progressives or a future crop of progressive thinkers, THAT would be as much a "stupid on steroids" proposition as is "stupid on steroids" gun free zones, as Sarah Palin said in her speech at the NRA convention recently.

S..., the first half of your comment is exhibit A of thinking that is just too shallow to pass up and not respond.

Your "point" in the second half of your comment is just as bad.

>> "The only point I was making was that,
>> "because this is true of any sovereign nation,
>> "you can't be disqualified
>> "from natural born citizenship
>> "due to citizenship in any other nation."


What is "true" in "because this is true"?

Are you seriously suggesting that other nations could ALSO naturalize the entire world, and so they would also be advocating "stupid on steroids", and that would affect U.S. sovereignty of U.S. citizens, whether naturalized or a “natural born Citizen” under Article II?

S..., if you seriously think that "stupid on steroids" naturalization of the entire world by every nation is a valid proposition, then you are NOT correct because what you are proposing is loss of sovereignty -

>> "you can't be disqualified
>> "from natural born citizenship
>> "due to citizenship in any other nation."


No, S..., that is not true, Congress could NOT pass such a law. It is not possible to be both a U.S. “natural born Citizen” and ALSO a citizen of any other nation. That is the essence of the Obamath-birther confusion about the 1787 Article II and the 1868 14th amendment.

The "honest and correct" answer to Jason's hypothetical is NOT "absolutely" but absolutely NO, national sovereignty under the U.S. Constitution is NOT subordinate to "stupid on steroids" world naturalization, whether by other nations or the U.S.A.

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., while you are in Washington, D.C., why don't you ask your friends Fogbow and Dr. Conspiracy if "stupid on steroids" world naturalization was the common sense “original intent” of the 1787 U.S. Constitution?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The "Original Birther Document" of the Union

Unknown said...

Umm ... Chester Arthur's term ended almost 130 years ago, in 1885.

He's already "gone down in history," Mario. Perhaps you could point me to any authority but yourself who says there's an asterisk by his name?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Fogbow Foggy,

I said that Chester Arthur usurped both the Vice-Presidency and the Presidency because he was not a natural born citizen and therefore he gets a constitutional ineligibility asterisk next to his name like de facto President Barack Obama.

You responded:

“Umm ... Chester Arthur's term ended almost 130 years ago, in 1885.

He's already ‘gone down in history,’ Mario. Perhaps you could point me to any authority but yourself who says there's an asterisk by his name?”

-----

Chester Arthur was born on October 5, 1829. He was presumably born in the Vermont. (Attorney A.P. Hinman uncovered evidence he was actually born in Canada.) But regardless of where he may have been born, he was no natural born citizen, for he was also born to non-U.S. citizen parents. His mother was a U.S. citizen, but she married a British subject which under the then-prevailing law made her a British subject, too. Just in 1811, the James Madison Administration declared James McClure, who was born in Charleston, South Carolina on April 21, 1785, a “citizen of the United States,” not because he was born in the United States, but rather because his British father naturalized on February 20, 1786, which was months after McClure was born and at which time McClure was also dwelling in the United States. This was the James Madison Administration’s interpretation of the Naturalization Act of 1802. Here is Publius telling us what the Naturalization Act of 1802 said:

“Mr. Rodman hints, that it would have been sufficient for James McClure to have been born in the United States—he is mistaken. The law of the United States recognizes no such claim. The law of Virginia, of 1792, does—for, “all free persons born within the territory of this commonwealth,” is deemed a citizen. The law of Virginia considers him as a son of the soil. An alien, as well as a citizen, may beget a citizen, but the U. States’ act does not go so far. A man must be naturalized to make his children such.”

For more information on the James McClure case, see my brief filed in the Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama Ballot Challenge in the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania, accessed at http://www.scribd.com/doc/83104811/Kerchner-Laudenslager-v-Obama-Ballot-Challenge-Brief-on-Behalf-of-Objectors-Filed-28Feb2012 .

The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court, consistent with the James Madison Administration's ruling in the McClure case, explained in Minor v. Happersett (1875):

“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Arthur did not meet the Minor common law definition of a natural born citizen, for he was not born to citizen parents. Also, being born in 1829 in the United States to alien parents, he would have also been subject to the Naturalization Act of 1802. Like James McClure, he also was not a citizen of the United States at birth. Arthur only became a citizen of the United States in 1786, when his British father naturalized, which was when Arthur was 14 years old and dwelling in the United States. Hence, Arthur was a naturalized citizen after birth and not a natural born citizen.

Also, Arthur does not get any help from either the Civil Rights Act of 1866 or the Fourteenth Amendment which was ratified in 1868. First, neither this Act nor Amendment defines a natural born citizen. Second, he did not qualify under the Act because he was born subject to a foreign power. Third, the laws were passed well after Arthur was born.

So, Fogbow Foggy, I submit to you that the authority of early Congress, James Madison, the Father of the Constitution, and the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court is sufficient to prove me correct.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Fogbow Foggy,

Here is more authority for you.

A military draft was proposed in 1862 because of the Civil War. Under this law, there was a section called “Aliens.” Under this section, the following persons were exempt from having to serve in the armies of the United States: “(1) All foreign born persons who have not been naturalized; (2) All persons born of foreign parents and who have not become citizens.” Papers relating to foreign affairs, 1862, p. 288 (cited in Breckenridge Long, Is Mr. Charles Evans Hughes a “Natural Born Citizen” Within the Meaning of the Constitution? Chicago Legal News, Vol. 146, p. 220 (1916)[Charles Evans Hughes]. We can see that Congress exempted both children born in the United States and out of the United States to alien parents from the draft the same way that Congress exempted them from citizenship in its naturalization acts. It looks like Congress did not trust children born to aliens when it came to military matters even if those children were born on U.S. soil. Surely, such children born on U.S. soil to those alien parents could therefore not be natural born citizens, i.e. eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

Chester Arthur served in the Civil War as a Brigadier General in the New York Guard. He was 31 years old when the war started on April 12, 1861. Arthur was a person born of alien parents. If Arthur’s father had not naturalized as he did to become a citizen of the United States, which also made his wife again a citizen of the United States, Arthur would not have even been able to be drafted into the Civil War. He surely would also not have been eligible to be an officer. Needless to say he was not a natural born citizen and not eligible to be the President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

Barack Obama, also born to a non-U.S. citizen father, did not qualify for the Civil War draft. Unlike Arthur’s father who did eventually naturalize which made Arthur eligible for the draft, Obama’s father never naturalized. Hence, Obama would never have been eligible for the Civil War draft. Needless to say he is not a natural born citizen and not eligible to be the President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

Fogbow Foggy, it looks like the authority of the United States which imposed the military draft in the American Civil law is also plenty of authority which demonstrates that I am correct that both Chester Arthur and Barack Obama are not natural born citizens and not eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

ajtelles said...

Huh...

Mario, on May 19, 2014 at 5:26 PM, Fogbow Foggy, aka F.F., asked a minor question about a minor issue, but he didn't say anything of substance to define and defend his Obama birth narrative minor point. Fogbow reminds me of Slartibartfast, who is also adept at making minor points and not adducing sources to support his point.

F.F. said -

>> "Umm ... Chester Arthur's term ended almost 130 years ago, in 1885.

>> "He's already "gone down in history," Mario. Perhaps you could point me to any authority but yourself who says there's an asterisk by his name?"


It would have been enlightening for F.F. to add a little meat to his irrelevant point.

Mario, your response was informative, as always, but, it's like feeding children filet mignon, which requires chewing, when all they want to do is gum the candy.

But, keep it up Mario. Your online tutorials are obviously and definitely still needed. 2016 is coming, and it seems that a Republican party crop of Article II deficient POTUS aspirants are also coming.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The “Original Birther Document” of the Union

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

I'm happy that the SCOTUS rejected your case because you failed to explain why the Constitution denies the Vermont Supreme Court the right to rule that a case is moot---any other action by the SCOUTS would have violated the Constitution. In addition, there is no need to legitimize the presidency of either Chester Arthur or Barack Obama. One person (Mr. Hinman) wrote a book claiming President Arthur was born in Canada (he was completely unconcerned with the citizenship of President Arthur's father, by the way) after he was elected to the vice-presidency. You can say whatever you want, but there isn't going to be an asterisk by President Obama's name and you and the whole birther movement probably wont rate anything more than a footnote. Also, I would wager that history will judge President Obama much more favorably than you expect---especially the fiscal responsibility of Obama and Clinton as compared to the uncontrolled spending of Reagan and W. Bush (and to a lesser extent his father).

As for my conversation with my friend, we had much more important and interesting things to discuss than failed frivolous lawsuits filed by cranks.

Art,

The intent of the Founders is irrelevant to the question Justin (not Jason) asked. He asked if Congress had the power to do something---they clearly do (it wouldn't violate the Constitution, it would just be stupid). I'm not claiming that it is something that they would ever do, just that it is within their power.

The phrase "because this is true of any sovereign nation" refers to their right to make whomsoever they choose one of their citizens.

Unknown said...

Thank you for admitting that your interpretation of the law is the only source of your claim that Arthur has an eligibility asterisk by his name. I was hoping you'd be able to cite a history book, or a law review article, or some scholarly source other than your own interpretation of the law, but no. So the truth is YOU have put an asterisk by his name, but the community of historians and legal scholars has not. By the way, why don't you write a new post. There are too many replies to this one. Quit being lazy.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Thank you for your thoughtful analysis and having taken your precious time to really study this issue. The people are in good hands with people like you at the helm.

Obama’s constitutional ineligibility to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military is as moot and harmless as a person telling a pregnant woman she is not pregnant and otherwise performing surgery, giving medical advice, and dispensing medicine to the public at large, including to those who complain to the authorities about it, all without having a medical license to do so.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Fogbow Foggy,

Do you have an opinion on whether Chester Arthur was or was not a natural born citizen? If you do, please provide your argument and authority which support your opinion.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

In the Constitution, adopted in 1787 and ratified in 1788, on the national level, there are “natural born citizens” of the United States and “citizens” of the United States. There is no such thing as a “born citizen” of the United States. Hence, all national citizens who are not “natural born citizens” of the United States are “citizens” of the United States.

Under the common law to which the Framers looked when they drafted and adopted the Constitution, only those who were born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth were natural born citizens and all the rest of the people were “alien or foreigners.” Emer de Vattel, Section 212, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797); Minor v. Happersett (1875). These aliens or foreigner included children born in the United States to alien parents and children born out of the United States to citizen and alien parents. Before the Civil Rights Act of 1866 was passed and the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868, these aliens or foreigners could become “citizens” of the United States only through naturalization Acts of Congress or treaties. If born in the United States to alien parents, they could become “citizens” of the United States after birth. If born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, they could become “citizens” of the United States at birth.

The Civil Rights Act of 1866 provided that a person born in the United States and “not subject to a foreign power” was also a “citizen” of the United States at birth. The Fourteenth Amendment, ratified in 1868 and which replaced the Civil Rights Act, then provided that a person born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” was a “citizen” of the United States at birth. As you can see, these laws did not define who were the “natural born citizens” of the United States.

The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) stated that children born in the United States to alien parents were not “citizens” of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment. Minor said that “there have been doubts” whether such children were “citizens.” Having answered the common law question of who was a natural born citizen, Minor left open the Fourteenth Amendment question of who was a citizen thereunder.

U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), confirming the common law definition of a “natural born citizen” of the United States, did not find Wong to be a “citizen” of the United States by virtue of the common law which defined a natural born citizen. Rather, it held that children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents were “citizens” of the United States at birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment; hence, Wong was a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen” of the United States, not an Article II “natural born citizen” of the United States.

Hence, all citizens who are not “natural born citizens” of the United States are simply “citizens” of the United States, at birth (under the Fourteenth Amendment) or after birth (under Acts of Congress or treaties).

As we can see, the original common law definition of a “natural born citizen” of the United States has never been changed. Today it is still a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Vattel; Minor; Wong Kim Ark.

De facto President Barack Obama, Senator Ted Cruz, Senator Marco Rubio, Governor Bobby Jindal, and Governor Nikkie Haley were all not born in the United States to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of their births. Hence, they are all not natural born citizens under the one and only controlling constitutional national common law definition of the clause.

ajtelles said...

"absolutely"...

Slartibartfast, aka S...

You wrote -

>> "The intent of the Founders is irrelevant to the question Justin (not Jason) asked."

>> "He asked if Congress had the power to do something---
>> "they clearly do
>> "(it wouldn't violate the Constitution,
>> "it would just be stupid).
>> "I'm not claiming that it is something that they would ever do,
>> "just that it is within their power."


- - - - - - - - - -

Justin's question on May 17, 2014 at 1:14 PM was -

>> "Could the US government
>> "pass a law
>> "granting everyone
>> "born anywhere in the world
>> "US citizenship
>> "after the date the law takes effect?"


S..., you are absolutely right--it would be stupid... "stupid on steroids" in fact. Right? Just say yes, you know it's right, even if Sarah Palin used that phrase.

S..., you are absolutely wrong--the U.S. Congress can NOT amend the U.S. Constitution, specifically in context Article II Section 1 Clause 5 and "natural born Citizen," with a world naturalization declaration with the “stupid on steroids”, no, the “absolutely STUPID ON STEROIDS” result that the NEXT generation, born “ANYWHERE in the world”—OR even ONLY on U.S. soil—would all be, yes “ALL” of them would be a “natural born Citizen” BECAUSE they would be born to TWO U.S. naturalized citizen parents.

To paraphrase “stupid on steroids,” how dumb is that? Is that dumb, or what?

S..., it does not matter how Obama-birthers crack the Obama birth narrative egg, the yolk is rotten and putrid, not even theoretical food for thought.

S..., to "...pass a law granting everyone born anywhere in the world US citizenship" was not the original intent of the original "WE the People," the original birthers, the original Founders, the original Framers, the original Ratifiers.

S..., world naturalization is fools gold, and not worth panning; or, to change the metaphor to a movie metaphor, if it were a movie, the Obama birth narrative critics would give it a “thumbs up” and the original intent critics would “pan” it and give it a “is that dumb, or what” stupid on steroids “thumbs down”.

S..., “absolutely” nice try, but the original intent of the original birthers, specifically the John Jay inspired underlining of the word “born” in “natural born Citizen,” with the implicit presupposition of a “higher hurdle” of ONLY birth on U.S. soil together with the concomitant presupposition of ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents, trumps, every time, the implicit “lower hurdle” of the Obama-birther birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POTUS.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The "Original Birther Document" of the Union

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Under the nomenclature in which the Constitution was written (i.e. that of the English common law), all citizens are natural citizens. There are only two types of natural citizens (an assertion you have agreed with), those that are born natural and those that were made natural after their birth---i.e. "natural born citizens" and "naturalized citizens".

You can deny it all you want, but you (and birthers in general) have had plenty of chances to prove yourselves in court and have shown that you are generally unable to understand the Constitutional requirements for the SCOTUS to hear cases (such as "standing") and, even if you did, your arguments have no merit. If birthers had wanted to settle this once and for all, they could have appealed Ankeny to the SCOUTS (where a denial of cert would have shown that they agreed with the holding that President Obama is natural born), but they missed their chance either through ignorance or fear. Not that it matters---quite frankly, a denial of cert is the best outcome from the SCOTUS that you or any other birther can hope for at this point.

Art,

One way to divine the original intent of the Founders is in the language they chose to use for the Constitution. As I pointed out above, the nomenclature they chose, that of the English common law, is very clear on the meaning of "natural born citizen"* and it isn't what you claim.

* The holding of the SCOTUS in Minor tells us that "citizen" in the Constitution means the same thing as "subject" in the English common law.

ajtelles said...

"the same thing"...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., on May 20, 2014 at 10:31 PM, you wrote -

>> "The holding of the SCOTUS in Minor
>> "tells us that "citizen"
>> "in the Constitution
>> "means the same thing as "subject"
>> "in the English common law."


S..., if "citizen" of a republic has the same meaning as "subject" of a monarch, well, why didn't the original birthers just say so at the Constitutional Convention?

In Article II Section 1 Clause 5, why didn't the original birthers, the Convention delegates, the Framers, just use the word "subject" of the United States, i.e., "natural born Subject" of the United States, instead of "citizen" of the United States, i.e., "natural born Citizen" of the United States?

S..., as you can see by the words themselves, without any added definition, there is an obvious linguistic and legal difference in meaning and in intent.

To quote your words back at you -

>> "One way to divine the original intent of the Founders
>> "is in the language they chose to use for the Constitution.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original 'Birther' Document of the 'Union'

Unknown said...

Foreign citizens were not allowed to join union army and they sure as hell are not allowed under A2 to be CiC. Biggest fraud in US history and probably biggest liar too

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The Framers wanted future presidents and military commanders to be as loyal and faithful as possibly to the U.S. To achieve that goal they required that future presidents and commanders be not only “citizens” of the United States, but rather “natural born citizens” of the United States. This could only mean that such citizens were born in allegiance only to the U.S.

Some say that the Framers did not define a “natural born citizen” and therefore we are to default to the English common law as the source of their definition for the clause. They are in error. The English common law may be easily discounted as the source of their definition, for that law allowed persons to be given the status of a “natural-born subject” even though born with dual and conflicting allegiances. Congress also would not have treated children born in the U.S. to alien parents as aliens if they were following the dictates of the English common law. So, if it was not the English common law that provided their definition, what law did and what was the definition? One of the strongest pieces of evidence to look to for the answer to these questions is the naturalization act of early Congress, which are dispositive of the issue because they not only preempted and abrogated the English common law on national citizenship, but also because they provide us with a clear understanding of how the Framers defined a natural born citizen and what law they used for that definition.

There were many Founders and Framers who were in the early Congress. Again, the naturalization Acts (1790, 1795, and 1802) are incontrovertible evidence that the Framers defined a natural born citizen as a child born in the U.S. to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

The clause natural born citizen itself reveals that the person is a citizen by a process other than by naturalization which necessarily involves a positive or municipal law making one a citizen either at birth or after birth.

A naturalization act is needed to make one a citizen because that person was born with some circumstance which prevents that person from being a citizen without that particular law deeming that person a citizen. A simple way to understand the naturalization process is to consider that a law is needed to make a child who is not someone’s natural child his or her adoptive child.

All those who needed the naturalization acts of Congress to gain any form of U.S. citizenship were either born out of the U.S. or born to alien parents or both. It is self-evident that someone who was not born to alien parents and in a foreign place did not need the benefit of these naturalization acts and that only those born in the U.S. to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth did not need the naturalization acts. It follows a fortiori that only children born in the U.S. to parents who were its citizens, not needing such laws for any citizenship status, were the natural born citizens.

Given this one and only definition of a natural born citizen, it also undoubtedly follows that it was not the English common law that provided this definition, but rather the law of nations whose natural born citizen principle was incorporated into American national common law and upon adoption and ratification of the Constitution became constitutional national common law and part of the supreme law of the law, subject to change only by duly ratified constitutional amendment.

This common law definition has never been changed by an amendment or our U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, today a natural born citizen continues to be defined as a child born in the U.S. (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth. For the sake of the safety of the nation and its people, this is the birth circumstance with which would-be presidents and commanders must be born in order to be legitimately allowed to wield the great and singular civil and military powers of those offices.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Do you realize how foolish you look when you argue against positions that I never took? Neither Justin's question, nor my response to it mention natural born citizens. Also, look up the term "hypothetical"---I don't think you know what it means.

Mario,

I took the liberty of making some minor corrections which make the first paragraph of your comment true:

The Framers wanted future presidents and military commanders to be loyal and faithful to the U.S. To achieve that goal they required that future presidents and commanders be not only “citizens” of the United States, but rather “natural born citizens” of the United States. This means that such citizens were born in allegiance to the U.S.

We know for a fact that natural born citizens can have other allegiances---no one questioned Spiro Agnew's eligibility due to his Greek citizenship nor did Mr. Hinman (or anyone else) question Chester Arthur's eligibility due to his English citizenship. Furthermore, according to Vattel (the original French version read by the Founders rather than the poor translation you like to cite) President Obama is an indigene.

ajtelles said...

"foolish"...

Slartibartfast, aka S...,

You responded with something about a position you never took, and about Justin and you not mentioning "natural born Citizen", and then you finger-wagged again, this time about the word "hypothetical," saying you don't think... that I know what the word means.

Sheesh, S..., is that the best you can do?

>> "Art
>> "Do you realize how foolish you look
>> "when you argue against positions that I never took?
>> "Neither Justin's question, >> "nor my response to it
>> "mention natural born citizens.
>> "Also, look up the term "hypothetical"---
>> "I don't think you know what it means."


S..., "do you realize how foolish you look?"

S..., you still have not responded with a clarification about your "obot" definition, that you posted here

_on April 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM, and

to which I responded

_on April 3, 2014 at 11:38 PM, and
_on April 4, 2014 at 1:49 AM, and
_on April 6, 2014 at 10:08 PM, and
_on May 19, 2014 at 12:02 AM.

S..., we're still waitin', just listenin' to the birds chirpin' and chirpin' and chirpin' and...

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Natural born citizen deceivers like you continue to pound large square pegs into small round holes. To make their favorite political character eligible to be President, these deceivers even go as far as to declare that there is such a thing as a naturalized natural born citizen, thereby reading the natural born citizen clause right out of the Constitution. These deceivers deny the reality of the simple constitutional scheme that the Framers gave us when they adopted the Constitution.

Members of the nation called the United States of America are called citizens, who are comprised of natural born citizens and just citizens. Except for the original members, who were subjects of Great Britain or some other foreign power and through the American Revolution became citizens of one of the new free and independent states, and at the ratification of the Constitution automatically and retroactively became “citizens of the United States,” these national citizens are to be distinguished from state citizens whose character, for purposes of local issues, was later defined by state law. Of all the national citizens, under the national common law to which the Framers looked when they drafted and adopted the Constitution, which common law has never been changed by any constitutional amendment or U.S. Supreme Court decision, only those who were born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth were natives or natural born citizens. Adopting that common law rule, the Framers necessarily provided that after July 4, 1776, all children born in the United States to parents who were both U.S. citizens were natural born citizens. All the rest of the citizens (who were not natural born citizens) were to be made by subsequent positive or municipal national laws. Today, these other citizens, who are not natural born citizens, are those made by the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaties. See Emer de Vattel, Section 212, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797); Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898); and the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, and 1802, and 1855.

And that is it. Citizens are either “natural born citizens” of the United States or they are not. If they were born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of their birth, then they are natural born citizens of the United States. If they were born under some other birth circumstance, whatever it may be, then they are just “citizens” of the United States. If one is a “natural born citizen” of the United States, then, satisfying the minimum of 35 years of age and 14 year residency requirements, one is eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military. If one is a “citizen” of the United States, but not a “natural born citizen” of the United States, satisfying other requirements, one is eligible to be a member of Congress or of any other federal or state political or judicial office in the land.

So, Slartibartfast, why do you not give us an argument that really works in demonstrating that your naturalized natural born citizen really exists in our history and law rather than hide behind false authorities and politics?

ajtelles said...

Disinformation...

Mario, EvolutionNews.org has a review of the reboot of "Cosmos," hosted by Neil deGrasse Tyson. It is titled
Darwin-Defending Historians Debate Whether It's Justified for Cosmos "to Lie" for the Sake of Science

>> http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/darwin-defendin085831.html

>> “There shouldn't even be a debate over whether, in defending truth, it's ever justified to lie. Yet over at H-Net, an international consortium of scholars and teachers interested in the humanities and social sciences, Darwin-defending historians of science are mulling whether it's acceptable for the new Cosmos series "to lie" for a good cause -- in this case, defending the authority of science.
>> "In a post titled "We need to talk about Cosmos...," historian of science Joseph Martin (pictured at left), who teaches at Colby College, refers to the falsehoods promoted by Cosmos about the history of science. Cosmos, as our readers will know, has persistently offered a false version of history where religion never positively influences the development of science. Martin writes:


- - - - - - - - - -

Hmmm, this defense of "science" sounds familiar. The facts don't matter, the agenda MUST be defended, and disinformation is the method, along with Saul Alinsky's marginalizing instructions in his book Rules for Radicals.

It sounds similar to the Obama-birther defense of the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POTUS, and anybody who says one U.S. citizen parent is NOT good 'nuf must be ridiculed and marginalized.

Mario, since I don't know who may be reading your forum, and I don't know who on your forum believes what about evolution (uncreated, undirected, survival of the fittest, etc.,) and intelligent design, the philosophy section on the "About" page is informative; it is philosophically relevant to the original genesis of “natural born Citizen” as written with original intent by the original birthers, the original Framers, in Article II -

>> “Philosophy:

>> “Mind, not matter, is the source and crown of creation, the wellspring of human achievement. Conceived by the ancient Hebrews, Greeks and Christians, and elaborated in the American Founding, Western culture has encouraged creativity, enabled discovery and upheld the uniqueness and dignity of human beings.

>> “Linking religious, political, and economic liberty, the Judeo-Christian culture has established the rule of law, codified respect for human rights and conceived constitutional democracy. It has engendered development of science and technology, as well as economic creativity and innovation.

>> “In contrast, the contemporary materialistic worldview denies the intrinsic dignity and freedom of human beings and enfeebles scientific creativity and technological innovation. Its vision of a closing circle of human possibilities on a planet of limited horizons summons instead the deadening ideologies of scarcity, conflict, mutual suspicion and despair.”

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, the philosophical point I'm making is found in the last words of the first paragraph, “...the uniqueness and dignity of human beings.”

There is a “uniqueness and dignity” in “born” as emphasized by John Jay when he underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” in his note to George Washington that MUST be defended against ALL enemies of the “original intent” words in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, and against ALL enemies of the republic, foreign AND domestic.

Another Cosmos review is here -
>> http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/panspermia_envi085801.html

EvolutionNews.org is part of the Discovery Institute
>> http://www.discovery.org/


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original “Birther” Document of the “Union”

Unknown said...

Vattel would not have called barry a native-indigines of the US because his father was a alien you tool. Native actually does equate to NBC but NBC is not the same as natural born subject. Citizens are free to come and go. The Founders fought the Revolutionary War because they wanted to be free men and not subjects to a King

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

I don't know who you're thinking of, but no obot I know of believes in "naturalized natural born citizens"---it's an oxymoron. You said:

"Members of the nation called the United States of America are called citizens, who are comprised of natural born citizens and just citizens".

This is like saying "the counting numbers are comprised of even numbers and positive integers"---technically true, but misleading. A more honest statement would be "the counting numbers are comprised of even numbers and odd numbers", or, in the case of citizenship, "Members of the United States are called citizens who are comprised of natural born and naturalized citizens."

Art,

Why does it not surprise me that you are a creationist. I notice that nowhere in your addled comment did you note that science was invented by Muslims under islamic rule...

ajtelles said...

Cosmos & Panspermia...

1/3

Slartibartfast, S..., finger-wagged again, but where's the beef, where's the substance, where's the coherent comment?

>> "Art,
>> "Why does it not surprise me that you are a creationist.
>> "I notice that nowhere in your addled comment did you note that
>> "science was invented by Muslims under islamic rule..."


- - - - - - - - - -

S..., nowhere in your negative finger-wag comment on May 23, 2014 at 4:09 AM, in which you adduce “science was invented … islamic rule” without defining and defending your assertion, did you note that you read the evolutionist's comment, Joseph Martin, that lying in defense of science is considered appropriate by some evolutionists, specifically the host of the "Cosmos" reboot, Neil deGrasse Tyson.

The title is -
Darwin-Defending Historians Debate Whether It's Justified for Cosmos "to Lie" for the Sake of Science

The first sentence of Martin's comment is -

>> "I've been watching with interest as the history of science community, particularly on Twitter,
>> "has reacted with consternation to the historical components of Neil deGrasse Tyson's Cosmos reboot.

Read Martin's evolutionist's perspective. It is the first url that I included on May 22, 2014 at 11:46 AM -

>> http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/darwin-defendin085831.html

S..., you might learn something that could add substance to your silly finger-wags.

- - - - - - - - - -

Here's a short sample from the second url on May 22, 2014 at 11:46 AM (all quotation marks and emphases are in the original - I did not include opening and closing quote marks) -

Panspermia, Environmental Alarmism, Socialism, Gaia, Nazi-Comparisons, and More: Cosmos's Endgame Is Becoming Clear

>> http://www.evolutionnews.org/2014/05/panspermia_envi085801.html

ajtelles said...

Cosmos & Panspermia...

2/3

[…]

>> Tyson's Explanation for the Origin of Life: "Somehow"

>> In the second episode of Cosmos, Tyson admitted, "Nobody knows how life got started." In this episode he re-tackled this topic.

>> Tyson again says "nobody knows" how life arose, yet all of the ideas he is willing to entertain are entirely naturalistic.

>> He very briefly suggests that "perhaps it [life] began in a shallow sunlit pool," or maybe "life could have started in the searing heat of a volcanic vent on the deep sea floor."

>> And just how did this happen? Here's what Tyson tells us:

>> Somehow, carbon-rich molecules began using energy to make copies of themselves.

>> That's right: the explanation is "somehow."

>> It reminded me of the scene from the film Expelled where the explanation given by materialists for the chemical origin of life was "whatever it was."

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., the rest of the review of Tyson's presuppositions on the panspermia origin of life continues. Here is a short intro (all quotation marks and emphases are in the original - I did not include opening and closing quote marks) -

>> All this comes just after Tyson has explained how living organisms contain a "language that all life on Earth can read" complete with a "code" that is "written in an alphabet" with "letters" where "each word is three letters long," and carries a "message" that is "copied."

>> Lest viewers suspect any of this points to intelligent design, Tyson immediately reassures us that "everything is a masterpiece written by nature and edited by evolution."

>> But when he asks "Where did that message come from?" he's forced to answer: "Nobody knows."

ajtelles said...

Cosmos & Panspermia...

3/3

>> For a guy who says he doesn't know how life arose, he seems strangely confident that it happened naturalistically.

>> But the message conveyed by this episode really isn't that "nobody knows" how life arose.

>> In fact, Tyson spends a lot of time promoting his own pet hypothesis for the origin of life.

>> Tyson Defies the Consensus by Pushing Panspermia

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., you can read the entire panspermia debunk for yourself. It continues at the section titled
>> Tyson Defies the Consensus by Pushing Panspermia

S..., you will find that defense of "mindless" evolution, aka "thoughtless" evolution, aka "informationless" evolution, can not allow a coherent discussion of the original genesis of life, so the panspermiaists such as Francis Crick and Neil deGrasse Tyson, must push the origin of life back billions of years and into other solar systems.

S..., how about you. Do YOU agree that lying about science is appropriate?

S..., do YOU agree with the evolutionary hypothesis about "panspermia" that Tyson promotes in the "Cosmos" reboot and which Crick, co-discover of the DNA double-helix code, also promoted?

S..., in context here on Mario's forum, do YOU agree that lying about the original intent of "natural born Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 is appropriate?

S..., are you "truthing" or lying in promoting the Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen is sufficient for a person to be eligible to be POTUS?

S..., when John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit presupposition that it meant ONLY born on U.S. soil with the concomitant presupposition of born to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, are you and Obama-birthers "truthing" or lying when asserting that John Jay was ALSO implicitly presupposing that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for a person to be eligible to be POTUS?

Truth or lies, both can promote and protect an agenda.

S..., was John Jay "truthing" or lying when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit presupposion that Jay, in 1787 and perpetually, meant ONLY born on U.S. soil (& jurisdictions) and ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

Leo,

It's amazing that you can have so many misconceptions in such a short comment. Here are some facts for you to chew on...

1. Vattel was a monarchist (not really significant, but you don't seem to be aware of this fact).

2. An accurate translation of the original French (according to a French lawyer and translator) would be something like: "the indigenous people of a country are those born in the country who have blood relatives who are citizens". This is what the Founders would have understood when reading Vattel in the original. President Obama certainly meets this standard.

3. The Founders rebelled against taxation without representation (read about the Boston Tea Party). They were not rebelling against monarchy per se, but rather against a monarch (and parliament) levying what they saw as unfairly high taxes without giving them any say in the matter. In fact, after the revolution, there were many among the founding generation who wished to make George Washington king.

4. If you are going to throw out the section of the holding in Minor which says that the terms "citizen" and "subject" are interchangeable, then you are forced to throw out the dicta which Mario fallaciously claims supports his position. Either accept that the only difference in the terms is that one is more appropriate for a monarchy and one is better suited to a republic or throw out Mario's "definition". Your choice.

Furthermore, Vattel has never been cited as an authority on citizenship by any Founder, Framer or the SCOTUS (or any other US court, for that matter). The sole exception to this that I am aware of is a concurrence with the majority in Scott v. Sandford---hardly compelling since the case was overturned by Constitutional amendment (just like Minor, by the way).

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibarfast,

Reading parents out of Vattel is laughable.

Also, Vattel and Minor defined a natural born citizen the same.

Anonymous said...

Slarti blustered: "Members of the United States are called citizens who are comprised of natural born and naturalized citizens."

That's very good for one in the first grade. I give you a gold star. Now for our more advanced pupils, we will add that there are also derivative citizens, provisional citizens, statutory citizens, mass-naturalized citizens, and last but certainly not least; COMMON LAW CITIZENS (via the 14th Amendment).

They are neither naturalized nor natural born because they are alien-born and never naturalized.

They have the characteristics of neither. They are the descendants as citizens of the old British nationality system that was still in place following the revolution. The Commmonwealth States continued to abide by it, making it a element of their Constitutions, and perhaps many or all of the other States as well.

But being alien born meant that one was not American born, natural born, or citizen born even if native-born (which is different from "native born" (without a hyphen) meaning one born of natives and not foreigners.

Being merely a "citizen by birth" in America) is entirely different from being "a citizen by birth" to Americans.

The latter are natural citizens while the former are common law citizens by the policy of Britain and the colonies and the States evolved from them. By that policy, by native-birth one was a subject of His Majesty for life. Now they are a U.S. citizen instead. Same policy. Not citizenship by blood nor process.

read by latest post at obama--natio.com "OBAMA'S FAKE MEDICAL RECORD"

Unknown said...

When I pointed out his "inverse error" in reading the early Naturalization Acts Esquire Apuzzo responded:

"As per Minor v. Happersett (1875), under the common law, children born in the United States to aliens could not be citizens. Minor explained [...]".

That's a different error. The issue at hand was what you incorrectly take the early Naturalization Acts to imply. Minor was still 75 years away when the first was enacted, and you and Leo Donofrio would not misread Minor that way for centuries.

How do you get that the Naturalization Act of 1790 says that native-born children of aliens are not born aliens? Here's all the act says about the children of aliens:

"And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States."

Your conclusion has to be an inverse error in reading that, because there just isn't anywhere else in the Act for it to be hiding. You incorrectly take that sentence to imply that the children of such person *not* so naturalized shall *not* be considered as citizens of the United States. That's the fallacy of denying the antecedent, an inverse error.

Unknown said...

My great grandfather came from quebec and i know what the accurate translation is and it can be found in minor. I do not have to be John Jay to realize that children of aliens born in phillipines are not natives of that country but children of filipinos born in philipines are. The Founders wanted only a native of our tribe in US to be eligible for Commander in Chief. Btw i think evolution is nonsense because humans wouldve had to have been fully formed to survive. The coelecanth fish was thought to be extinct for millions of years but they found one in 1938 and it had not changed at all. A trex did not become a bird and a child of a alien is not a native or natural born citizen. Children follow the condition of the parents in the natural world, dogs give birth to dogs and humans give birth to humans period.

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

On May 24, 2014 at 12:42 AM, leo derosia said...

[...]

>> "Btw i think
>> "evolution is nonsense
>> "because
>> "humans
>> "wouldve had to have been
>> "fully formed
>> "to survive."


Leo, dittos to "fully formed."

THAT expresses not only original intent, it also expresses original genesis "intelligent design" common sense.

Dittos also to,

>> "Children follow the condition of the parents in the natural world,
>> "dogs give birth to dogs
>> and humans give birth to humans
>> "period."




Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

PS. dittos...

Leo, earlier I responded to your evolution comment with this -

>> "Leo, dittos to "fully formed."

>> "THAT expresses not only original intent,
>> "it also expresses original genesis
>> "intelligent design"
>> "common sense.


and

>> "Dittos also to,

>> "Children follow the condition of the parents in the natural world,
>> "dogs give birth to dogs
>> and humans give birth to humans
>> "period."


- - - - - - - - - -

Leo, the PS is to add this in the context of Mario's forum here about "natural born Citizen" in Article II -

>> "Children follow the condition of the parents
>> "in the natural world"


Children also follow the citizenship status of the parents in the political world.

When two human persons unite, they produce only a human person.

If two persons unite in marriage and one parent is a U.S. citizen and one parent is a foreign citizen, their child is ALSO a citizen—dual citizenship.

If two persons unite in marriage and BOTH parents are U.S. citizens, their child is ALSO a citizen—single citizenship.

Dual citizenship = 1868 U.S. "citizen"
Single citizenship = 1787 Article II U.S. "natural born Citizen"

John Jay was not only prescient in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washington, Jay was also original genesis "intelligent design" common sense prescient.

The children can ONLY follow the "condition" of the parents, in original genesis birth and in original genesis citizenship.

_One human child from the two parents
_One "citizen" from the two parents
_One "natural born Citizen" from the two parents.

Original intent—what a concept.

One might even say that in the political context of Article II, “original genesis” and “original intent” is a, well, a “creative conjugation.” As a "conjugation," it has ONLY one original intent meaning—TWO produce ONE of a kind—a "citizen" OR a "natural born Citizen."

TWO for ONE works for this “original intent” birther informed by original birther John Jay and original birther George Washington.

How about for you “one-U.S.-citizen-parent-is-good-'nuf” Obama-birthers?

TWO for ONE, or ONE for ONE?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

I miswrote:
"How do you get that the Naturalization Act of 1790 says that native-born children of aliens are not born aliens?"

That should have been:
"How do you get that the Naturalization Act of 1790 says that native-born children of aliens are born aliens?"

Unknown said...

It was pretty funny slat said vattels quote means blood relatives haha. I wonder what citoyens and parens translates to in english....i agree aj, children of citizens born in their country are also citizens in political world. This is a natural occurence and birthers do not have to do cartwheels, contortions and backflips to make such children natural born citizens. The Republic is shaky now but lets remember all the veterans on memorial day. Sorry we have such a lying evil fraud usurping Presidency

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I have for years written on how early Congress in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization. I have cited and quoted these Acts. I have explained how the 1790 Act’s language, “And the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States,” means that all children born to alien parents, regardless of where the children were born, were alien born and in need of naturalization.

I have also cited and explained the James McClure citizenship case of 1811 and how the James Madison Administration resolved that case as evidence that I am correct.

Showing that these naturalization acts acted upon not only children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, but also on children born in the United States to alien parents, I have also shown that the only children who Congress did not act upon in these naturalization acts were children born in the United States to citizen parents. I have demonstrated that this could only mean that these and only these children were the natural born citizens.

Should you need further explanation or more historical evidence which supports my interpretation and analysis of the early naturalization acts and how they prove that my definition of a natural born citizen is correct, just let me know and I will be happy to provide it for you.

Anonymous said...

Mario's view of the Nat Acts as implying that native-born children of foreigners were viewed as also alien fails to see the real picture that existed at the time.

Just the opposite view is equally valid for the simple reason that in neither 1776, nor 1781, nor 1787 did the century-old British common law vanish off the face of the earth. By it, all children born within the borders of the States were viewed a State citizens.

I've anticipated for a couple years now seeing evidence that some or many or most States ended that policy of soil-based nationality for alien-born children. It hasn't yet been brought forward by anyone.

That leaves one to assume that jus soli citizenship continued within the States while at the same time it was totally rejected as a policy by the national government.

What would you see in law if that were the case? You would see what is in and what is not in the Nat Acts. No mention at all of native-birth. That way, both sides could assume it meant what they wanted it to mean and the controversy could be thus brushed aside for another day.

The States were opposed to the federal policy regarding their citizenship laws and the feds were opposed to the States' laws because they allowed the rejected conundrum of dual-citizenship, dual-allegiance, and dual-attachments.

The Nat. Acts dared not attempt to bridge that chasm and slap the States in the face with federal policy since Congress lacked any authority to dictate to them matters of nationality when native-birth was involved. So the language of the acts was deliberately ambiguous.

It is an error of presumption to take either side since Congress took neither side in its language. It avoided the issue, just as it continued to do all of the way up to 1898 when the Supreme Court finally settled it for good.
Native-born common law citizenship then became accepted at the federal level, not merely tolerated by not asking about parentage at birth.

Anonymous said...

Art wrote: "Dual citizenship = 1868 U.S. "citizen"

That would be historically correct if you changed the date to 1898 when the Wong opinion was handed down.
Until then, the federal policy and known intent of the 14th Amendment and 1866 Civil Rights Act did NOT include dual citizenship since the meaning of subjection to the United States meant no subjection to a foreign power.

That meant one was either an American by naturalization (which involved renouncing all foreign authority), or was born as an American by the blood of an American father.

The Gray opinion completely bastardized the original meaning of subjection, switching it was political jurisdiction to civil jurisdiction. That was absurd on its face since everyone is obligated to obey the law wherever they are, even ambassadors.

Just because they are immune from prosecution does not mean they are not subject to the moral authority of civil law. They are obligated to obey it.
So real subjection involved the subjection of citizenship, not mere habitation. Only citizens were obligated to defend the nation, -until the high court ruled that immigrant's children were American.
Then their father's could be drafted because if the child is subject (as required by the amendment), then so was his father since the child is subject through him.
No child is directly subject to any legitimate government.
All subjection was through the head of the family; the father. He was its master and representative in political society.

The side effect of the Wong opinion was that immigrant men could be drafted, and they were after that. They still must register with Selective Service if under 26 years of age.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,
Consistent with your modus operandi, you are again wrong. The Framers and therefore the Constitution looked to national common law to define a citizen and a natural born citizen. That national common law adopted the principles of the law of nations on the meaning of a citizen and a natural born citizen.

The Constitution gave Congress and only Congress the power to make more citizens of the United States. That power was not shared with the states, who could, however, continue to make state citizens for purposes of deciding local issues involving property, inheritance, dolling out privileges, etc., but not citizens of the United States. It is simply dishonest to take the citizenship state law of any one or more states and hoist it upon the whole nation when the Framers clearly and succinctly stated in the Constitution that Congress shall make uniform the laws of naturalization, which necessarily included the power to make citizens of the United States. It is absurd to think that such uniformity could be achieved if state citizenship, defined differently by each states, could control who the citizens of the United States were to be.

So, trying to create some atmosphere of doubt by presenting some made-up struggle between the states and the federal government on U.S. citizenship or even just telling us about how the colonies and new states defined their state citizens and declaring that such state rules decided who were to be in the post-Constitution adoption period natural born citizens or citizens of the United States so that you can pawn off your state citizen as a natural born citizen or even just a citizen of the United States is an epic fail.

But do not fret. Eventually you pick up a piece here and there that is correct and then you can just present it all to the public as all yours.

ajtelles said...

Two produce one of a kind...

h2ooflife, the point of my comment on May 24, 2014 at 2:40 PM, is simple. Just as it takes two persons to produce a child who is a person, it takes two persons who are citizens to produce a child who is also a citizen.

The issue is simple.

_Are the two parents citizens with different citizenships, U.S. and foreign?
_Are the two parents citizens with the same citizenship, both U.S.?

If the two parents are citizens with different citizenships, the child is a child with dual citizenship.
If the two parents are citizens with the same citizenship, the child is a child with single citizenship.

If two persons unite in marriage and one parent is a U.S. citizen and one parent is a foreign citizen, their child is ALSO a citizen—dual citizenship.

If two persons unite in marriage and BOTH parents are U.S. citizens, their child is ALSO a citizen—single citizenship.

The only thing I would change about the previous comment is the 1868 date, because alone it is not clear.

_Dual citizenship = U.S. "citizen" (Acts of Congress and Amendments since 1790)
_Single citizenship = U.S. "natural born Citizen" (1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5)

Changing the date to 1898 an U.S. v Wong Kim Ark takes the context off on a tangent that is not germane to the point--TWO produce ONE of a kind every time.

Naturalization at birth or after birth is a different topic, relevant but not germane to "TWO produce ONE of a kind every time."

The children can ONLY follow the "condition" of the parents, in original genesis birth and in original genesis citizenship.

_One human child from two parents
_One "citizen" from two dual citizenship parents
_One "natural born Citizen" from two single citizenship parents.

I like the play on words of “creative conjugation” in the previous comment, so I'll repeat it here.

>> One might even say that in the political context of Article II,
>> “original genesis” and “original intent” is a, well, a
>> “creative conjugation.”
>> As a "conjugation,"
>> it has ONLY one original intent meaning—
>> TWO produce ONE of a kind—
>> a "citizen"
>> OR
>> a "natural born Citizen."


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

By the law of nature, both the father and mother impose their government over their child during the years that the child is under their protection. If there is just one government, the child will become attached to that one government. If there are two, then the child will become attached to both of those governments. With the modern nation and legal borders coming into existence, the nation where a child's birth occurs also imposes its government upon those who are born in the territory of the nation.

This rule is by no means able to be fairly applied to all cases, for some children are reared and educated by one-parent families or do not even know who one or both of their parents are. Some children may live one day in the place of their birth and the rest of their lives in an adopted land. Nevertheless, rules are needed in order to create a civil and political society. For that purpose, the Framers wrote a Constitution for a new nation. They could not possibly account for all the exceptions that exist to any rule, especially to the rule of allegiance. Still, they wrote the document in their effort to do the most good that they could for the greatest amount of the people of the United States.

The Framers included in the Constitution the natural born citizen clause as one of the eligibility requirements for a would-be President and Commander to satisfy in order to be eligible for that office and position. While the clause does not and will not make all of us happy (the clause excludes and will exclude some citizens from being eligible to be President or Vice-President under the Twelfth Amendment), it is designed to do the most good for the nation. Under the clause, only a child who is born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens (citizens or natural born citizens) at the time of the child's birth is eligible to be President and Commander. That is what our Constitution provides and in a constitutional republic that is what we have to live by until the clause is removed or amended by duly ratified constitutional amendment.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

The Obots and their supporters want to convert the “natural born citizen” clause into simply the “citizen of the United States at birth” clause. Their effort is contrary to the wishes of the Framers. The Framers did not intend the clause to be some vacuous phrase, just some rhetorical device. They did not insert the clause into the Constitution as mere surplusage. Rather, they intended the clause to have real life implications. As part of that reality, the Framers intended that a natural born citizen, being the person who would grow up to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military, have a constitutionally different meaning from a citizen of the United States at birth or after birth. Yet, the Obots and their followers, for the sake of making a political candidate eligible for the Office of President, want to read the natural born citizen clause out of the Constitution and leave us with the citizen of the United States at birth clause, a clause that is filled with conflicting allegiances and citizenships from birth, not what the Framers intended future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military to have.

Anonymous said...

Art, there's a word for what you are conveying. It is "Uniformity". Both parents must have a uniform nature. Uniformity is essential to reproduction and results is a uniformly identical off-spring as the parents who have a uniform nature; i.e., the same genus and species; (and usually the same breed).

What is true in the biological realm is likewise true in the political realm which is patterned after it when it comes to those children born as natural members of their parents' group since their parents fit the natural pattern (having the same nationality).

There's one other Natural Law of life and that is the Law of Opposites. The parents must be of opposite genders or reproduction is not possible. That has no political counterpart.

So Uniformity is the only Law of Nature that matters in the political realm. Without it as one's background, one is not eligible to be President.

~something to consider; going easy on the emphasis of "One" since reproduction can result in two, or three (twins and triples). The focus is only on one nationality as apposed to two, -with two producing two, not one.

Mathematically it could be expressed as the difference between 1 + 1 = 2 (two nationalities) and 1 X 1 = 1 (one nationality). Interesting.

The Presidency is reserved only for those equaling one; one citizenship, one allegiance, one loyalty, one connection, one People, one government, one Constitution, and one obligation. America and nothing else. Like John Quincy Adams; 6th generation American; -an extreme example of pure American-ness.

ajtelles said...

TWO produce ONE...

h2ooflife, aka h2o, allowing for differences of perspective and nuance, the simple point is that, as related to citizenship, TWO produce ONE of a kind every time. The issue is not how many are produced at any one time.

The uniformity is simple to state, and the simplicity of the statement is my point.

Just as ONLY TWO parents produce ONE child, ONLY TWO citizens produce ONE citizen. The point is, are both "citizen" parents U.S. citizens, or are they of mixed citizenship, U.S. and foreign?

That's the simple point.

Uniformity about "... parents who have a uniform nature; i.e., the same genus and species; ...," and "... the Law of Opposites," while they are accurate statements and relevant in a general discussion about origins, they are not germane to birth and citizenship, "TWO produce ONE of a kind every time."

- - - - - - - - - -

I'll clarify what I wrote earlier.

The Dr. Conspiracy and Obama-birther "theory," ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POTUS, is bogus.

The issue is simple.

_Are the two parents citizens with different citizenships, U.S. and foreign?
_Are the two parents citizens with the same citizenship, both U.S.?

If the two parents are citizens with different citizenships, the child has dual citizenship.
If the two parents are citizens with the same citizenship, the child has single citizenship.

If two persons unite in marriage and one parent is a U.S. citizen and one parent is a foreign citizen, their child is a U.S. citizen AND a foreign citizen—dual citizenship.

If two persons unite in marriage and BOTH parents are U.S. citizens, their child is a U.S. citizen—single citizenship.

_Dual citizenship = U.S. "citizen" (Acts of Congress and Amendments since 1790—perpetual)
_Single citizenship = U.S. "natural born Citizen" (since September 17, 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5—perpetual)

The children can ONLY be what the parents are, in "original genesis birth" AND in "original genesis citizenship."

_One human child from two parents
_One dual citizenship "citizen" child from two dual citizenship parents
_One single citizenship "natural born Citizen" child from two single U.S. citizenship parents.

- - - - - - - - - -

h2o, I'll conclude with your words -

>> "The Presidency is reserved only for those equaling one;
>> "one citizenship,
>> "one allegiance,
>> "one loyalty,
>> "one connection,
>> "one People,
>> "one government,
>> "one Constitution, and
>> "one obligation.
>> "America and nothing else.

[...]
May 26, 2014 at 1:32 AM


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here is Maskell's argument which shows that I am correct in maintaining that he is arguing that all born citizens are natural born citizens: 'The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term ‘natural born’ citizen would mean [...]'"

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me that you committed an act of fabrication when you wrote the following?

"Here is the Jack Maskell's logically valid but logically unsound natural born citizen argument:
All born citizens are natural born citizens.
Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are born citizens.
Therefore Barack Obama and Ted Cruz are natural born citizens."
-- Mario Apuzzo Esq, this thread, 12 March 2014

To refute a charge of fabrication, you would need to quote Maskell saying *that*.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

I will concede that I made a mistake if you can demonstrate Jack Maskell arriving at his conclusion that all born citizens are natural born citizens, not from the proposition that all natural born citizens are born citizens, but rather from contemporaneous evidence from the Founding/Constitution period which specifically supports his thesis.

So, help us all out here and produce the evidence from the Founding/Constitution period which supports Maskell's thesis that all born citizens are natural born citizens. That should not be that difficult for you because it should all be included in Maskell's Congressional Research Service report of 2011.

ajtelles said...

Sheesh...

Mario, Unknown #11 said "that" with certainty. Is "that" the best that Unknown #11 can come up with?

Where's the beef, where's the substance, where's the definition and defense of a point... other than a finger-wag?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"So let me understand you, Unknown.
Emer de Vattel spoke in Section 211 of the Law of Nations [...]"

Obviously not an attempt to understand me.

Vattel's ideas are not our laws, and Article II says "natural born Citizen", not "Naturels ou Indigènes" which is what Vattel defined. Your own reference for the significance of Vattel, Professor Natelson's book, /The Original Constitution: What it Actually Said and Meant/, flat-out refutes you on the meaning of the term.

If the Founders defined natural-born citizen as you claim, why not just quote where they did so? None of your quotes say any such thing. Instead you write such stuff as:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The Convention Committee of Eleven on September 4, 1787 rejected the Committee on Detail’s proposal that the President and Commander had to be a “citizen” (could be born with dual and conflicting allegiance and citizenship) and a resident for 21 years and in its place required that he had to be a “natural born citizen” (could not be born with dual and conflicting allegiance and citizenship), at least 35 years old, and a resident within the United States for a minimum of 14 years."

Mr. Apuzzo, inserting your own ideas in parenthesis is not founding-era evidence.

The one point that your quotes resolve is a disagreement you had with my fellow-traveler Slartibartfast. You argued that the grandfather clause was needed because upon the founding there were no natural-born citizens of the new nation. Slarti held that the Founders who had been natural-born subjects of England were natural-born citizens of the United States. Now read your quote, in part, of Joseph Story's /Commentaries on the Constitution/:

"It is indispensable, too, that the president should be a natural born citizen of the United States; or a citizen at the adoption of the constitution, and for fourteen years before his election. This permission of a naturalized citizen to become president is an exception from the great fundamental policy of all governments, to exclude foreign influence from their executive councils and duties. It was doubtless introduced (for it has now become by lapse of time merely nominal, and will soon become wholly extinct) out of respect to those distinguished revolutionary patriots, who were born in a foreign land, and yet had entitled themselves to high honours in their adopted country. A positive exclusion of them from the office would have been unjust to their merits, and painful to their sensibilities."

Justice Story informs us that, without doubt, the grandfather clause was introduced for those revolutionary patriots who were born in a foreign land and naturalized here. According to your fine source, Slartibartfast was right; you, Mr. Apuzzo, were wrong.

Furthermore, Justice Story's explanation, like the rest of your quotes, is consistent with "natural-born citizen" meaning citizen from birth. "It cuts off all chances for ambitious foreigners, who might otherwise be intriguing for the office," he writes. The citizens from birth are exactly the people who were citizens for every instant of their lives. Barack Obama, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley, and Ted Cruz never had a chance to be ambitious foreigners intriguing for office.

Anonymous said...

Art, it's worse than that if you look close at what Unknown said to Mario: "To refute a charge of fabrication, you would need to quote Maskell saying *that*."

But Mario did not say that Maskell said "that". He only said that it was Maskell's "argument" -not his statement. Very unfocused of unknown.

Regarding the principle of origins; there is only one natural principle because there are no natural hybrids in nature although they can exist in the political realm via the non-natural principle of non-uniformity. [there should be such a word as "noniformity" or "multiformity"]

It takes parents of different national origins to produce hybrid children (politically speaking). They could be called "divergant" citizens.

The principle of uniformity only produces "natural citizen" children. All other citizen children result from law, -legal citizens.

Via parental uniformity of race, religion, ethnicity, or nationality one is born as a member of a single group, be it a species, a people, or a nation.

One single origin produces one single outcome. Two produces two. Those with dual origins aren't eligible to be President because of the "contamination" of foreign alienage, -and its possible foreign allegiance.

Anonymous said...

It's great when Unknown gets to the truth of a matter and pops one of Mario's erroneous bubbles with the facts. But then he always goes and creates one of his own. He quoted:
"It cuts off all chances for ambitious foreigners, who might otherwise be intriguing for the office,".

That claim is stupid and anyone who believes and promotes it is even more stupid. Why? Because place of birth is not synonymous with place of upbringing.

A leader of Al Queda could have one of his wives give birth in the U.S. and then fly out of the Great Satan and be raised in U.S.-hating Pakistan or Yemen, etc to be a future suicide bomber who gets elected to Congress as a presumed U.S. citizen who might even run for President one day.

Two centuries ago the trip took a few months longer but would be just as certainly accomplished.

The founders were not oblivious to such a possibility because they were not the ones who were stupid. They also knew that place of up-bringing did not prevent indoctrination into foreign attachments, beliefs, and attitudes because a foreign father could raise his sons with whatever sort of world-view he wished to instill in them. So best to not trust any son of foreigners, and that didn't narrow the field of presidential candidates hardly at all.
It wasn't about the "rights" of foreigners and their children to command the full power of the American military. It was about the present and future survival of the nation and how best to write a simply rule to secure it.

The problem with the nbc rule is that it is too simply, but until we have some competent mind-readers among us, it is the only means to prevent any possibility of foreign allegiance, or anti-American indoctrination.
a.r.nash

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of IV

As I have long said, the Obots are full of contradictions, the reason for that being that they are simply wrong.

You maintain at May 26, 2014 at 7:33 PM that I have erroneously presented Jack Maskell’s position, arguing that I cannot quote him saying exactly what I maintain his argument is. Yet, when you and the Obots put forth their argument that Wong Kim Ark held that Wong was a natural born citizen, and that Maskell is correct in his position that that all born citizens, regardless of how they obtained their citizenship, are natural born citizens, when asked to produce a quote from the Wong Kim Ark or any other source that proves their position, you and the Obots are not able to produce that quote and rather tell us that your position is derived from the Wong’s ratio decidendi (the reason or rationale for the decision). But upon examination, we can see that the Court’s reasoning does not support your and Maskell’s position that the Court held that Wong was a natural born citizen.

The whole reason why the Wong Kim Ark had to decide the case shows that you, the Obots, and Maskell are wrong. Wong Kim Ark had to look to the Fourteenth Amendment to determine whether Wong was a “citizen of the United States.” To understand why the Court had to look to that amendment to resolve the issue before the Court and what that means in terms of what the meaning of a natural born citizens is, we have to first understand what the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained about citizenship in Minor v. Happersett (1875) and then closely examine the holding and rationale of Wong Kim Ark and reconcile that holding and reasoning with what Minor explained.

The State of Missouri, through its constitution and statutes, had denied Virginia Minor, a woman who was born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, the ability to vote, maintaining that there was no right to vote under the Constitution as then written. Virginia Minor argued that the state could not deny her the ability to vote because of the new Fourteenth Amendment’s protection from a state’s abridgement of a citizen’s privileges and immunities. (She did not argue due process, which is guaranteed to all persons whether physically present in or out of the United States, or equal protection, which is guaranteed to “any person within its jurisdiction.”) She argued that Missouri’s laws were unconstitutional. Given that the Constitution extends its privileges and immunities only to citizens, she needed to show that she was a citizen in order to be able to argue that she was entitled to the privileges and immunities provided to citizens under the Constitution which she said included the right to vote, which a state like Missouri could not deny to any citizen by making or enforcing any law.

The parties had conceded that Virginia was a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, but Missouri maintained that the Constitution’s privileges and immunities did not include any right to vote. While the parties conceded that Virginia was a citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court still found it necessary to explore whether Virginia’s (a woman’s) claim to being a citizen was supported by historical and legal evidence outside that amendment, for it had to make sure that women were included by Congress in the word “persons” which it used in the very amendment to which Virginia looked for not only to prove she was a citizen, but also for protection from Missouri’s action against her (“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of IV

The Court then set out to explore who were the citizens. The Court looked to the Constitution and noted that it contained “natural born citizens” and “citizens of the United States.” It said that before the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted, the Constitution did not define who the “citizens of the United States” were. The Court also said that the Constitution, which then already contained the Fourteenth Amendment, did not define a natural born citizen. The Court explained that there had always been citizens before the Fourteenth Amendment was passed. The Court showed who the citizens were before the amendment was passed. The Court explained who the original citizens had been, showing how they came into being through the American Revolution. It said that being citizens, they owed allegiance to the new nation for which the nation protected them. It then said that more citizens were made by birth and naturalization. From this statement we can easily see that the word “citizen” did not only mean “natural born citizen,” for the Court included within it naturalized citizens.

As to the additional citizens made by birth, the Court demonstrated that there were two types. It explained that one type was defined under the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. It said that these were children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” who could be naturalized by Acts of Congress or treaties. It called these persons not only “citizens,” but also “natives or natural born citizens.” As to those aliens or foreigners under common law, the Court explained that Congress, through its naturalization acts could make them “citizens of the United States” at birth, if born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, or through its naturalization acts or treaties could make them “citizens of the United States” after birth, if born out of the United States to alien parents.

The Court also sua sponte raised the question of whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was a citizen. It said that “there have been doubts” whether that was so, evidently referring to The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) which had stated that such children were not citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court said that it did not have to decide that question and so left it unanswered. The Court’s decision not to answer the Fourteenth Amendment question follows from the fact that Virginia was born in the United States to citizen parents and therefore as the Court explained not only a citizen, but also a natural born citizen.

From this analysis, we can see that the Court defined national citizenship and not citizenship of any state. The Court never looked to state law or even the English common law which had selectively prevailed in the states following the Revolution until abrogated by the state’s legislatures. Had the Court been looking to the English common law when it referred to the common law upon which the Framers relied to define a natural born citizen, the Court would not have included citizen parents in its formulation or even later said that there have been doubts whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was a citizen, for the English common law did not require citizen parents for a child born in the King’s dominion and under his obedience to be a “natural-born subject.” Indeed, the Court’s analysis demonstrates that a natural born citizen was defined by national common law and a citizen of the United States who was not a natural born citizen was defined by the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, and treaties.

The Court concluded that Virginia Minor did not need the Fourteenth Amendment to prove that she was a citizen. Virginia was born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents and therefore she was not only a citizen like her parents but also a natural born citizen.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) decided the Fourteenth Amendment question left open by Minor. Wong was born in the United States, but to alien parents. Hence, the Court could not, like Minor, look to national common law which defined a natural born citizen. Now, the Court was compelled to directly address and resolve the Fourteenth Amendment question of whether children born in the United States to alien parents were “citizens of the United States” under the Amendment. The Slaughterhouse Cases had said that they were not. But the specific question was not the central question before that Court. Hence, Wong Kim Ark did not feel bound by what the Court had said in that earlier case. Also, since Minor, virtually the same Court as The Slaughterhouse Cases Court, only said that “there have been doubts” whether those children were citizens, Wong Kim Ark concluded that it had free reign to decide the Fourteenth Amendment issue.

The Court set out to define what the Fourteenth Amendment’s “subject to the jurisdiction meant.” First, the Court cited and quoted Minor and its definition of the natives and natural born citizens under the common law. It did not criticize that definition or say that Minor had erred in including citizen parents within the definition of a natural born citizen. Second, the Court then also looked to the common law as an aid to interpret the Fourteenth Amendment. But it looked to a different common law than did Minor. Rather, the Court looked to the colonial English common law that continued to prevail selectively in the states until abrogated by state legislatures. Third, the Court distinguished a “natural born citizen” under Minor’s national common law from a state “citizen” under that colonial English common law and held that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court arrived at its conclusion as to what a “citizen of the United States” under the Amendment was by the fact that the individual colonies and then states defined their state citizens under the colonial English common law. But that is not how Congress had defined the “citizens of the United States” under its naturalization acts. But that did not matter since the Fourteenth Amendment, of course, trumped any Act of Congress on the matter. And regarding the natural born citizens, as we saw from Minor, that is not how the Framers defined a “natural born citizen,” for they looked to a different common law. The historical and legal record shows that that common law was based on the principles of the law of nations which define a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Emer de Vattel, Section 212, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797) (“The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound by this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The native, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”). So, Wong Kim Ark held that Wong was a citizen of the United States at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. It did not hold that he was a natural born citizen under national common law.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

As we have seen, both the holding and ratio decidendi of the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority of the Court in Wong Kim Ark prove that Jack Maskell is wrong that all born citizen are natural born citizens. Minor explained that more citizens could be made by birth or naturalization. It said that Congress could make more citizens through its naturalization acts and treaties, such citizens to be citizens from birth or after birth. But it also explained that of all the born citizens, only those who were born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth did not need naturalization by Congress or even the Fourteenth Amendment and were therefore the natives or natural born citizens. Following the lead of The Slaughterhouse Cases, it added that “there have been doubts” whether children born in the United States to alien parents were “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment. Rejecting what the Slaughterhouse Cases said, Wong Kim Ark held that Wong, was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. It neither held nor explained that he was a “natural born citizen” under the national common law to which the Framers looked for their definition of the clause. So even though the Court found that Wong was a born citizen, it did not hold that he was a natural born citizen. Hence, both Minor and Wong Kim Ark demonstrate that Maskell is wrong in contending that all born citizens, regardless of how they may obtain that status, are natural born citizens. On the contrary, today the definition of a natural born citizen continues to be a child born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens (“natural born citizens” of the United States or “citizens” of the United States) at the time of the child’s birth.

So, Unknown/NotLinda, do you have anything else that you can offer in your effort to prove me wrong?

Unknown said...

Barry and ted "mr constitution" cruz were *foreign* citizens at birth as well citizens of the US and dual citizens which makes them ineligible. A *foreign* citizen at birth has never been eligible and only a NBC is eligible for CiC now. If barry is actually a citizen of the US then he can screw us in Congress but not in office of President and it does not matter if he renounces (which he never did) his kenyan, british and indonesian citizenship, same goes for Cruz and his cuban (i guess) and canadian citizenship. Having a * foreign* citizen as CiC is not a strong check on * foreigners* from entering administration.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of IV

I have maintained that no one born before July 4, 1776 could be a “natural born citizen” and that the most they could be were “citizens of the United States.” I have also argued that for those born after that date, only children born in the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents could be natural born citizens and that after that date any person who was a citizen and who did not satisfy that definition was only a “citizen of the United States,” either at birth or after birth.

You argue that persons born before July 4, 1776 could also be natural born citizens and that either before or after July 4, 1776, any born citizen, regardless of how that status may have been obtained, was and is a natural born citizen. You provide the following quote from Justice Story and the following argument in support of your position:

"‘It is indispensable, too, that the president should be a natural born citizen of the United States; or a citizen at the adoption of the constitution, and for fourteen years before his election. This permission of a naturalized citizen to become president is an exception from the great fundamental policy of all governments, to exclude foreign influence from their executive councils and duties. It was doubtless introduced (for it has now become by lapse of time merely nominal, and will soon become wholly extinct) out of respect to those distinguished revolutionary patriots, who were born in a foreign land, and yet had entitled themselves to high honours in their adopted country. A positive exclusion of them from the office would have been unjust to their merits, and painful to their sensibilities.’

Justice Story informs us that, without doubt, the grandfather clause was introduced for those revolutionary patriots who were born in a foreign land and naturalized here. According to your fine source, Slartibartfast was right; you, Mr. Apuzzo, were wrong.

Furthermore, Justice Story's explanation, like the rest of your quotes, is consistent with ‘natural-born citizen’ meaning citizen from birth. ‘It cuts off all chances for ambitious foreigners, who might otherwise be intriguing for the office,’ he writes. The citizens from birth are exactly the people who were citizens for every instant of their lives. Barack Obama, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley, and Ted Cruz never had a chance to be ambitious foreigners intriguing for office.”

-----

Your argument has no merit. Clearly, Justice Story was referring to only one class of person who was born before the adoption of the Constitution and who was included in “Citizens of the United States” at the adoption of the Constitution and therefore eligible to be President, but excluded from being so eligible if born thereafter. That person was a person who was born out of the U.S. and who acquired his or her citizenship after his or her birth. Today we call such a person a naturalized “citizen of the United States” after birth. But the Framers did not include in the grandfather clause only those persons. They also included persons who were born in the English colonies and who upon the ratification of the Constitution became “citizens of the United States.” They also did not exclude from being eligible to be President only persons who were born after the adoption of the Constitution out of the U.S. to alien parents. They also excluded from being President any other person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was not a natural born citizen. So, the correct question is who the Framers included as natural born citizens and who they excluded therefrom. Telling us the obvious that they allowed persons who were born in a foreign country and who became citizens of the U.S. after birth to be President through the grandfather clause which would in the future become extinct is not dispositive of

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of IV

the question of what is a natural born citizen. Nor is it correct to argue that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, they excluded from being eligible to be President only persons born out of the United States to two alien parents and included everyone else.

As to children born in the U.S., Congress in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, and 1802 treated children born in the U.S. to alien parents as aliens which is a very far cry from treating them as natural born citizens. Furthermore, the James Madison Administration in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811 declared James McClure, born in South Carolina on April 21, 1785 to alien parents, but whose British father naturalized as a citizen of the United States after his son’s birth and when his son was dwelling in the U.S., a “Citizen of the United States” and not a “natural born citizen,” even though he was born in the U.S. Everyone involved knew that he was born in South Carolina in 1785, but they still questioned whether he was a “citizen of the United States.” Being born in the U.S., but only a “citizen of the United States” after birth, he was not eligible to be President under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5. So here we have an example from the James Madison Administration of someone who was born in the U.S., but found to be only a “Citizen of the United States” after birth, but only because his British father naturalized after his son’s birth and during a time when his son was still a minor and dwelling in the U.S. Clearly, McClure was not eligible to be President. Hence, the early naturalization acts provide iron clad proof that the Framers did not see all persons born in the U.S., even if not born to diplomatic or military invading parents, as natural born citizens. If they were born to alien parents, they were aliens. The James Madison Administration’s decision in the McClure case also provides solid evidence that all persons born in the U.S., even if not born to diplomatic parents or military invaders, were not natural born citizens.

As to children born out of the U.S., the Third Congress was clear in how it repealed the Naturalization Act of 1790 and thereby informed that not all “citizens of the United States” at birth were “natural born citizens.” For sure, the Third Congress communicated that persons born out of the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents, while “citizens of the United States” at birth, were not natural born citizens and therefore not eligible to be President. If that were not the case, there simply would not have been any reason for Congress, with the lead of then-Representative James Madison and with the approval of President George Washington, to remove “shall be considered as natural born citizens,” as it existed in the 1790 Act, and replace it with “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” There cannot be any doubt that the Third Congress and George Washington were well aware of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 simply and plainly saying that “Citizens of the United States” were no longer eligible to be President if born after the adoption of the Constitution, unless also natural born citizens.

Hence, Justice Story’s statement, to the extent that it can be interpreted to mean that only persons born out of the U.S. to alien parents were excluded to be eligible to be President, unless under the grandfather clause they had that status as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution which is now obsolete, is not correct. Indeed, early Congress confirmed that children born in the U.S. to alien parents were aliens, and even if they became citizens of the U.S., that was only after birth and therefore they were not eligible to be President. And early Congress even confirmed that even certain citizens of the U.S. at birth (children born out of the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents) were not natural born citizens and therefore not eligible to be President.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

The Civil Rights Act of 1866 created an exception to this rule regarding children born in the U.S. for freed slaves who were born in the U.S. to slave parents who had long lost any allegiance to any foreign power and hence born in the U.S. and “not subject to any foreign power” and thus “citizens of the United States” at birth under the Act.

Even with the Fourteenth Amendment, under its interpretation by The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873), children born in the U.S. to alien parents who came from identified foreign nations continued to be aliens. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), interpreting the Fourteenth Amendment in 1898, changed this rule by providing that person born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” (satisfied even if born to alien parents who were permanently domiciled and residents of the United States) are “citizens of the United States” at birth. But the Amendment, not even coming close to repealing or amending Article II’s natural born citizen clause (neither the Amendment’s text nor legislative history, nor The Slaughterhouse Cases, nor Minor, nor Wong Kim Ark expressly or by implication said that it did), does not make these born citizens “natural born citizens.”

Under national common law, only those who were born in the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents were natural born citizens. The early naturalization acts also solidly demonstrate that the Framers did not view all born citizens as natural born citizens. These persons, born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, were “citizens of the United States” at birth by naturalization acts of Congress, but they were not natural born citizens. Hence, those persons were also not eligible to be President. This constitutional scheme regarding both children born in or out of the United States followed from partus sequitur patrem (children follow the condition of their parents) and national common law, which adopted natural born citizen principles from the law of nations, and with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. This common law provided that the natural born citizens were only those born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth and all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” who could become citizens of the United States, at birth or after birth, by Acts of Congress or treaties. Minor v. Happersett (1875).

Hence, Justice Story’s statement, to the extent that it can be interpreted to mean that only persons born out of the United States to two alien parents were excluded to be eligible to be President, unless under the grandfather clause they had that status as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution which is now obsolete, is not correct. Indeed, early Congress confirmed that children born in the United States to alien parents were aliens, and even if they became citizens of the United States, that was only after birth and therefore they were not eligible to be President. And early Congress even confirmed that even certain citizens of the United States at birth (children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents) were not natural born citizens and therefore not eligible to be President. Thus, to conclude from Justice Story’s statement that under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 persons who are born after the adoption of the United States out of the United States to alien parents are the only persons excluded from being eligible to be President and that any person who became a “citizen of the United States” at birth, no matter how that status was acquired, is a natural born citizen and therefore eligible to be President, is to commit constitutional error.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

So, Unknown/NotLinda, you and your partner, Slartibartfast, are going to have to try again. And Mr. Adrien Nash, he has a whole slew of erroneous positions here and now another one for thinking and writing that you said anything which proved me wrong. Also, Barack Obama, Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, Nikki Haley, and Ted Cruz, all not born in the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents, are all not natural born citizens and not eligible to be President.

Anonymous said...

The Socialist Kenyan Constitution disses Obama & the Dems;

137. (1) A person qualifies for nomination as a presidential candidate if the person is a citizen by birth
(2) A person is not qualified for nomination as a presidential candidate if the person owes allegiance to a foreign state;

140.
(1) A person may file a petition in the Supreme Court to challenge the election of the President-elect within seven days after the date of the declaration of the results of the presidential election.

145.
(1) A member of the National Assembly, supported by at least a third of all the members, may move a motion for the impeachment of the President on the ground of a gross violation of a provision of this Constitution or of any other law;

CHAPTER THREE––CITIZENSHIP

14.(1) A person is a citizen by birth if on the day of the person’s birth, whether or not the person is born in Kenya, either the mother or father of the person is a citizen.

(2) A person who has been lawfully resident in Kenya for a continuous period of at least seven years, and who satisfies the conditions prescribed by an Act of Parliament, may apply to be registered as a citizen.

16.
A citizen by birth does not lose citizenship by acquiring the citizenship of another country.
17. (1)
If a person acquired citizenship by registration, the citizenship may be revoked if the person––
(a) acquired the citizenship by fraud, false representation or concealment of any material fact;
(c) has, within five years after registration, been convicted of an offence and sentenced to imprisonment for a term of three years or longer; or
(d) has, at any time after registration, been convicted of treason,
[ONLY "a" APPLIES IN THE U.S. BECAUSE OF THE DOCTRINE OF NATURAL-IZATION WHICH MAKES ALL CITIZENS NATURAL CITIZENS]

(2) The citizenship of a person who was presumed to be a citizen by birth, as contemplated in Article 14 (4), may be revoked if––
(a) the citizenship was acquired by fraud, false representation or concealment of any material fact by any person;
(b) the nationality or parentage of the person becomes known, and reveals that the person was a citizen of another country; [MEANING THE PERSON WAS NOT NATIVE-BORN OR WAS NOT BORN OF KENYANS]

(3) The Rights and fundamental Freedoms in the Bill of Rights—
(a) belong to each individual and are not granted by the State;
(b) do not exclude other rights and fundamental freedoms not in the Bill of Rights, [EQUIVALENT TO THE TENTH AMENDMENT]

20.
(1) The Bill of Rights applies to all law and binds all State organs and all persons. [and much more...]

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Unknown's latest comment illustrates the strength of sound reasoning. Eventually evidence turns up that supports your theory. You tried to ridicule me for holding a position that now has direct support while you cannot find a single piece of evidence that George Washington (for example) was not considered a natural born citizen. That makes you look kind of foolish.

Unknown,

Nice.

Art,

Can you lay off the "Alinsky rules" thing? Alinsky's rules for radicals aren't ideological nor are they sacrosanct. While some are good tactics or strategy, some are not, some are obsolete and some are just silly. The right follows these rules as much as, if not more than, the left. I know you're just trying to invoke a boogieman, but that one isn't scary---it's just silly.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast wrote:
"Mario,
Unknown's latest comment illustrates the strength of sound reasoning. Eventually evidence turns up that supports your theory."

There's a saying, possibly of ancient eastern origin, "Wait by a river long enough and you will see the bodies of your enemies float by". Tricky to interpret. Probably not intended as straightforward tactical advice. Works astonishingly well for us obots.

Who provided that citation refuting Mr. Apuzzo? Mr. Apuzzo did. I just waited. That's worked over and over and over.

Every court that has reached the merits of his theory has rejected it. Team Obama did not bring a single one of those cases. Apuzzo did.

Months ago, and several times since, I noted that Mr. Apuzzo's real stance is merely invincible ignorance. Recently you, Slartibartfast, could not convince him that a proper subset is a subset.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of IV

Not having been demonstrated by either of you, there is no sound reasoning in Unknown’s presentation. Justice Story clearly stated that being a natural born citizen or a citizen of the United States at the adoption of the Constitution was “indispensable” for being eligible to be President. He explained that all governments have a “great fundamental policy . . . to exclude foreign influence from their executive councils and duties.” Hence, he told us that the purpose for the natural born citizen clause was to exclude from the Office of President and position of Commander in Chief foreign and monarchical influence. It is only reasonable to think that such influence would be excluded to the greatest degree that it could be. He also said that a one-time exception to this fundamental policy was made for “naturalized citizens” or “citizens of the United States,” who became so as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution, who were grandfathered to be eligible to be President, but would no longer be so eligible once all of them died out. He then gave one example of a naturalized citizen, that being a person “born in a foreign land.” He made no reference to the citizenship of the parents of that foreign-born person. Rather, he honored those foreign-born persons as eligible because they bravely fought in the American Revolution as “revolutionary patriots” which act is what naturalized them to be citizens of their “adopted country,” one of the new free and independent states which united became the new United States of America.

What we learn from all this is that in the future, only a natural born citizen would be eligible to be President. A “citizen of the United States,” being a naturalized citizen, no longer would be. People who were born out of the U.S., regardless of the citizenship of their parents, were not natural born citizens and at best could be citizens of the United States, but not eligible in the future. These foreign-born persons were given an exception from disqualification only because they fought in the American Revolution and by doing so demonstrated their unquestionable allegiance and love for their new adopted country. It looks like Justice Story would rule that Senator Ted Cruz, born in a foreign land and not having fought in the American Revolution as a “revolutionary patriot,” was neither a “citizen of the United States” at the adoption nor a natural born citizen. Also, even if Story did not think so, the Founders and Framers could have considered themselves as born in a foreign land and therefore in need of naturalization. After all, Calvin, born in Scotland to Scottish parents, became an English “natural-born subject” only because he was born after King James IV of Scotland became King James I of England, Ireland, and Scotland, and his parents born before that time continued to be subjects of Scotland and not of England until the English Parliament naturalized them as such. So, the Framers viewed the grandfather clause as applicable not only to persons born out of the colonies, but also to persons born in them. The legislative expressions of the early Congress proves this to be true.

Furthermore, Story did not say that persons born in a foreign country were the only persons excluded from eligibility. Rather, he gave just one example of a naturalized citizen, which the Constitution includes into those its calls citizens of the United States, who was to be excluded from eligibility in the future. That example was of a person born in a foreign land, but who fought in the American Revolution, who he explained in the future would be extinct from eligibility. But such a person did not exhaust all the cases of ineligible citizens of the United States in the future. Clearly, the nation would accept more in the future, not by such persons

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of IV

fighting in a revolution, but rather by such persons satisfying the requirements of positive or municipal law to be passed in the future. We also know that Story did not consider all persons born in the Untied States as eligible to be President. In Inglis, he was in the minority when he espoused he English common law jus soli rule, which the majority rejected for the law of nations jus sanguinis rule. But in Shanks, decided after Inglis, he wrote for the majority and included his acceptance of partus sequitur patrem, children follow the condition of their parents. Acceptance of such a rule demonstrates that he now rejected jus soli and embraced jus sanguinis, meaning that children born in the United States to alien parents were aliens and not citizens.

Story states that the grandfather clause was introduced to allow those born in foreign lands before July 4, 1776 to be eligible for the office of President. That might be true, but that fact does not detract from the express language of Article II which provides that of those born after the adoption of the Constitution only a natural born citizen is eligible to be President (a citizen of the United States who is not a natural born citizen is no longer eligible). So, regardless of why the grandfather clause was introduced, only a natural born citizen is eligible to be President. (While it is important for the proper understanding and a reasonable application of the Amendment, all persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to its jurisdiction are citizens of the United States, even though at the time of application one may be presented with a factual scenario that is different from the specific facts that gave rise to the need for the Amendment.) In other words, anyone who was just a citizen of the United States and not also a natural born citizen was excluded from eligibility, not only persons who were born in a foreign nation. The principle in Story’s rule of exclusion is that persons who were citizens of the United States and not natural born citizens would be excluded in the future. We must therefore be guided by that principle and its meaning and not only by one set of facts that are stated when applying that principle. The controlling question then becomes what is a natural born citizen? When we analyze the definition of a natural born citizen, we learn that any person who was not born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents was excluded from being a natural born citizen and therefore from presidential eligibility.

I have demonstrated why Justice Story, to the degree that you want to interpret him to say that the only people the Framers excluded from presidential eligibility are those born in a foreign nation, would be wrong. Born on September 18, 1779, Justice Story was not a Founder, Framer, or Ratifier. There are Founders, Framers, and great legal scholars (David Ramsay, St. George Tucker, and Nathan Dane) of the Founding period who directly contradict any such proposed interpretation of what Justice Story said. Apart from all that contemporaneous evidence, again consider the following.

At the time the Constitution was drafted and adopted, the only persons who were citizens of the United States, but not natural born citizens were persons who were born before July 4, 1776 in one of the colonies or out of it to British or some other nation’s parents, but who had been present during the American Revolution and adhered to that cause. The common law definition of a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Hence, the only natural born citizens were children born on or after July 4, 1776 in one of the states to parents who become citizens of one of the states on July 4, 1776. The following historical and legal development proves this definition of a natural born citizen to be correct.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

As to children born in the United States, all the early Congress’s (The Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855) treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien. The James Madison Administration’s James McClure citizenship case confirms this. This rule was also confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814), Inglis (1830), Shanks (1830), and Justice Daniel in Dred Scott (1857).

Congress in both the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, requiring birth in the United States, but not requiring that it be to citizen parents, called the citizens to be “citizens of the United States.” It did not call them “natural born citizens.” Clearly the distinction is constitutionally critical given how Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 treats the two classes of citizens differently as they pertain to eligibility to be President. Surely, Congress was well aware, like the Third Congress, of what Article II provides in this regard, i.e., that “citizens of the United States” were eligible to be President provided they had that status as of the time the Constitution was adopted and that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, only a natural born citizen is eligible. So neither the Amendment’s text nor debates reveal any intention to repeal or amend Article II’s natural born citizen clause.

The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) stated that children born in the United States to alien parents were not citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1898) defined a citizen and natural born citizen under the common law with which the Framers were familiar as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth and added that that under that common law all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” who could be naturalized by Acts of Congress or treaties. It added that “there have been doubts” (undoubtedly referring to The Slaughterhouse Cases) whether children born in the United States to alien parents were citizens. Clearly, such children could not be natural born citizens, for there was never any doubt whether one was a natural born citizen. And if such children were citizens, they would have been citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment and not natural born citizens under the Framers’ common law. Since Virginia Minor was born in the United States to citizen parents, Minor did not have to answer the Fourteenth Amendment citizen question and so left it unanswered.

Wong Kim Ark (1898) presented the U.S. Supreme Court with the need to answer the Fourteenth Amendment citizen question left open by Minor. Wong was born in the United States, but to alien parents. Hence, unlike Virginia Minor, he could not establish that he was a natural born citizen. He needed the Fourteenth Amendment to make him a “citizen of the United States” at birth. It was only through Wong Kim Ark that such children (only if born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents) were accepted as “citizens of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment, which I have demonstrated were not “natural born citizens,” for the Fourteenth Amendment did not repeal or amend Article II’s natural born citizen clause.

So our Congress has since 1790 to the present always recognized that children born in the United States to alien parents were not natural born citizens. Chief Justice John Marshall confirmed it as early as 1814. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor again confirmed it in 1875. And it is only since 1898 that they have been given the status of a “citizen of the United States” at birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment which is not the status of a natural born citizen under the Framers’ common law.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

As to children born out of the United States, the First Congress saw the need to naturalize children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents. It not being possible that such children fought as adults in any revolutionary war, Congress saw the need to naturalize these children through naturalization acts (positive or municipal law). In any event, in its 1790 Act it said that those children “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” This was naturalization. A naturalized citizen was not a natural born citizen. Congress was only given the power to naturalize, not the power to make anyone a natural born citizen. The Third Congress, led by then-Representative James Madison and with the approval of President George Washington, in 1795 specifically removed the status “shall be considered as natural born citizens” and replaced it with “shall be considered as citizens of the United States” for children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents. Under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, only natural born citizens were eligible to be President and the Third Congress and President Washington knew this. Remember that Story said that persons born in foreign lands after the adoption of the Constitution would no longer be eligible to be President. What the Third Congress did is consistent with what Story wrote.

Now onto the question of whether the early presidents were natural born citizens. All of the above evidence demonstrates that President George Washington and the other early Presidents were not natural born citizens. (Martin Van Buren was the first natural born citizen President). Clearly, none of them satisfied the rules of natural law, the law of nations, and common law as to who were the natural born citizen, rules which they themselves embraced. Being born before July 4, 1776, they were not born in the country (a state which later united with all the other states and became the United States of America) to parents who were citizens of any state. Rather, they became “citizens of the United States” through the naturalizing power of the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution. Yours is a blindness to a principle and honor, i.e., our first presidents had to be natural born citizens of the nation they helped create and the facts be damned. Finally, even if our early presidents were natural born citizens, it would be by being born in the country to citizen parents, a fiction created by the American Revolution. (This is how James Madison decided that William Smith was a citizen of the United States for at least 7 years.) So, your position, whether right or wrong, changes nothing as to the correct definition of a natural born citizen and that Obama, Cruz, Rubio, Jindal, and Haley do not satisfy that definition.

Slartibartfast, you should know that only stating how wonderful Unknown’s reasoning is without demonstrating how wonderful it is and not addressing one piece of all this evidence and not showing how my understanding of it is incorrect gets you an F.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

There is no need for myself or unknown to refute your argument---Judge Story (who you yourself presented as a reliable authority) did it for us. In any case, you always ignore or misrepresent any arguments which refute your positions, but we'll try one more time...

You claim that our earliest presidents were not considered natural born citizens and thus required the grandfather clause for their eligibility. Justice Story said:

"It is indispensable, too, that the president should be a natural born citizen of the United States; or a citizen at the adoption of the constitution, and for fourteen years before his election. This permission of a naturalized citizen to become president is an exception from the great fundamental policy of all governments, to exclude foreign influence from their executive councils and duties. It was doubtless introduced (for it has now become by lapse of time merely nominal, and will soon become wholly extinct) out of respect to those distinguished revolutionary patriots, who were born in a foreign land, and yet had entitled themselves to high honours in their adopted country. A positive exclusion of them from the office would have been unjust to their merits, and painful to their sensibilities."

In other words, the grandfather clause was added, not for the benefit of George Washington or any of our other early presidents, but for men like Alexander Hamilton or St. George Tucker who were not natural born subjects of the colonies but participated in the Revolution. This is precisely the argument that I made which you considered ridiculous. I didn't think that I needed to point out how completely foolish this makes you look, but I guess I was wrong.

Would you care to admit that every set is a subset of itself now?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Do you really think that you can get off so easy. You are a joke!

I responded to Unknown's and your Justice Story's position and I rest on that. Other than just quoting Story again, you have not even made an effort to refute my response. You lose.

I said that a natural born citizen is a proper subset of citizens. You said that it is a subset. You are wrong and I am right.

Chew on that.

P.S. are you still going around the internet telling people that Vattel said in Section 212 "blood relatives," rather than "parents?" LOL

P.S.S. Unknown better bring plenty of food and sun screen waiting at that river's edge.

ajtelles said...

the point...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., said...

>>Art,

>> Can you lay off the "Alinsky rules" thing?
>> Alinsky's rules for radicals aren't ideological nor are they sacrosanct.
>> While some are good tactics or strategy,
>> some are not,
>> some are obsolete and
>> some are just silly.

>>The right follows these rules as much as, if not more than, the left.
>> I know you're just trying to invoke a boogieman, but that one isn't scary---it's just silly.


S..., the last time I mentioned Saul Alinsky was 6 days ago on May 22, 2014 at 11:46 AM.

What's your point?

- - - - - - - - -

Maybe you can respond to what I asked you the next day on May 23, 2014 at 10:58 AM -

>> S..., in context here on Mario's forum, do YOU agree that lying about the original intent of "natural born Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 is appropriate?

>> S..., are you "truthing" or lying in promoting the Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen is sufficient for a person to be [a "natural born Citizen" and] eligible to be POTUS?

>> S..., when John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit presupposition that it meant ONLY born on U.S. soil with the concomitant presupposition of born to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, are you and Obama-birthers "truthing" or lying when asserting that John Jay was ALSO implicitly presupposing that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for a person to be [a "natural born Citizen" and] eligible to be POTUS?

>> Truth or lies, both can promote and protect an agenda [... THAT is Alinsky in a nutshell].

>> S..., was John Jay "truthing" or lying when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit presupposition that Jay, in 1787 and perpetually, meant ONLY born on U.S. soil (& jurisdictions) and ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents?

S..., these are simple original intent and original genesis questions. Right?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Here is an oldie but goody from Dr. Conspiracy. He argues:

“Of course, if one accepts the general opinion of the matter, then Wong actually did decide the [natural born citizen] question, since “natural born citizen” means nothing more or less than “born a citizen”. It could hardly mean otherwise, lacking further definition in the Constitution. So when the Supreme Court decided that Wong was born a citizen, they decided that he was a natural born citizen — because it’s same thing.”

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/05/de-vattel-revisited/ .

Dr. Conspiracy says that because the Constitution does not define a natural born citizen, it must mean simply any born citizen.

He concedes that Wong Kim Ark did not hold that Wong was a natural born citizen. Rather, he says that it held that he was a born citizen.

He continues that since Wong was a born citizen and any born citizen is a natural born citizen, then Wong was also a natural born citizen, even though the Court did not say so.

He concludes, therefore, anyone who is born in the United States to alien parents, like Wong was, is both a born citizen and a natural born citizen.

There are several problems with Dr. Conspiracy’s argument. That the Constitution does not define a natural born citizen does not mean that the clause did not have a meaning. We know from Minor v. Happersett (1875) that the Framers defined it as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This common law definition is based on the natural law and law of nations principles expressed by Vattel in Section 212 of The Law of Nations (1758). There are various born citizen, made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress, who do not satisfy that definition. Hence, not all born citizens are natural born citizens. Wong Kim Ark did hold that Wong was a born citizen, because that was perfectly allowed under its interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. But Wong did not satisfy the common law definition of a natural born citizen. Therefore, Wong was not a natural born citizen. This means that any child born in the United State to alien parents, may be a born citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, but may not be a natural born citizen under the common law.

Obama, Cruz, Rubio, Jindal, and Haley are therefore not natural born citizens.

Unknown said...

No evidence GW was not a NBC? The US did not even come into existence until 44 years after his birth. There was no country called the US to be born in and no us citizens who couldve been his parents in 1732 JHC. GW was a citizen of the US at the time of adoption which made him eligible. GW was born a british colonial subject like the kenyan in white house if obama is actually the real father. Instead of slobbering over each other here the obots should just do more communicating under usurpers desk...the first legit NBC of the US was born sometime in 1776 which wouldve made them too young to be cic in 1789

Slartibartfast said...

Unknown,

There's a quote from Sun Tzu that I'm fond of:

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest road to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat."

The sound you hear from Mario and his fellow birthers is merely the noise before defeat.


Mario,

You wrote hundreds of words about what Story said, but you failed to address the point: if there was no doubt that the grandfather clause was introduced to make foreign-born revolutionaries eligible, then it was not needed to make native-born citizens eligible (or else this would have been an obviously more important reason for the clause).

It has already been established beyond question that President Washington was considered to have been resident in the United States since his birth (the only time that his residency could date from since it must have started before 1776 to make him eligible). Justice Story's statement strongly suggests that his citizenship was considered to have started at his birth as well.

Unknown said...

Part 1

Naturalized foreigners were "natural born subjects".

When someone says that "natural born citizen" is based on English Common Law, they are right.
"Natural Born Citizen" however, is NOT based on English *Statutory* Law.
That is where the confusion lies.

By English *Common* Law,
“All those are natural born Subjects whose Parents, at the Time their Birth, were under the actual obedience of our King, and whose Place of Birth was within his Dominions.”
and
“If one of the King’s Ambassadors in a foreign Country, hath issue there by his Wife, being an English Woman, by the Common Law they are natural born Subjects.”
A New Abridgement of the Law – Joseph Sayer, Owen Ruffhead (1736)
http://books.google.com/books?id=hho2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA77&dq=aliens+common+law+statute+natural+born+subject&hl=en&sa=X&ei=agRfU87FDM-xyAT0vIDoBw&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=aliens%20common%20law%20statute%20natural%20born%20subject&f=false



All others who were called natural born subjects (except for the children of the King) were made so by statute (i.e. naturalized), including those born of English parents out of the country, and foreigners who were naturalized.

When England naturalized foreign protestants in the American Colonies, or foreign seamen serving on British vessels, they said that these foreigners:
"shall be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be his Majesty's ***natural born subjects*** of this kingdom, to all intents, constructions, and purposes as if they and every of them had been, or were born within this kingdom "
This was standard verbiage in British naturalization statutes. When they naturalized someone, they were called "natural born subjects".
The Statutes at Large from the Magna Charta [to the End of the Eleventh Parliament of Great Britain, (1765)
http://books.google.com/books?id=iJNRAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA144&dq=shall+be+deemed+adjudged+and+taken+to+be+His+Majesty%27s+natural+born+Subjects+of+this+Kingdom+to+all+Intents+Constructions+and&hl=en&sa=X&ei=jvpsU-OTB82TyATk1YLgCQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=shall%20be%20deemed%20adjudged%20and%20taken%20to%20be%20His%20Majesty%27s%20natural%20born%20Subjects%20of%20this%20Kingdom%20to%20all%20Intents%20Constructions%20and&f=false

If the founders based “natural born citizen” on English STATUTORY law, then naturalized citizens would be eligible to the presidency. We know that they are not.

Unknown said...

Part 2

English Common Law and English Statutory Law are two different things.

Common Law was natural Law. Statutory Law was used when they wanted to expand what was considered legal. Statutory Law naturalized those who weren't considered subjects by Common Law.

William Blackstone, Of the People, Whether Aliens, Denizens, or Natives
"WHEN I say, that an alien is one who is born out of the king's dominions, or allegiance, this also must be understood with some restrictions. ****The common law indeed stood absolutely so; **** with only a very few exceptions: so that a particular act of parliament became necessary after the restoration, for the naturalization of children of his majesty's English subjects, born in foreign countries during the late troubles. "

The reason they called them "natural born subjects" is because they considered naturalization to be from birth.
"Naturalization is an adoption of one to be intitled by birth to what an Englishman may claim; and where naturalization is, it takes effect from the birth of the party, but denization takes effect from the date of the patent." A New and Complete Law-dictionary: Or, General Abridgment of the Law - Timothy Cunningham (1764)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y580AQAAMAAJ&pg=PT100&lpg=PT100&dq=Naturalizatian+is+an+adoption+of+one+to+be+intitled&source=bl&ots=ibREj11QAI&sig=H0Sez2kO8pwgWc-qa4w2EXD3qvM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cqVhU5bSD4KbyAT3rYKoBQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Naturalizatian%20is%20an%20adoption%20of%20one%20to%20be%20intitled&f=false


At the time of the writing of the Constitution, children born of Aliens in England were Denizens.
"Also if one out of the King's allegiance, come and dwell in England his children begotten here are not aliens, but denizens." 7 Co Rep Calvin's case - A New and Complete Law-dictionary: Or, General Abridgment of the Law - Timothy Cunningham - (1764)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Y580AQAAMAAJ&pg=PT99&dq=ut+of+the+King%27s+allegiance+come+and+dwell+in+England+his+children+begotten+here+are+not+alieni+but+denizenr&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FpKGU83pFcqNqgbYuYGQDA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ut%20of%20the%20King%27s%20allegiance%20come%20and%20dwell%20in%20England%20his%20children%20begotten%20here%20are%20not%20alieni%20but%20denizenr&f=false

Denizens were naturalized subjects:
"For it is not much to make a subject naturalized by the law of England: it should suffice, either place or parents. If he be born in England it is no matter though his parents be Spaniards, or what you will: on the other side, if he be born of English parents it skilleth not though he be born in Spain, or in any other place of the world. In such sort doth the law of England open her lap to receive in people to be naturalized; which indeed sheweth the wisdom and excellent composition of our law." Francisci Baconi Baronis de Verulamio (1730)
http://books.google.com/books?id=kmlUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA204&dq=matter+though+his+parents+be+Spaniards+or+what+you+will+on+the+other+side+if+he+be+born+of+English+parents+it+skilleth+not&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aKKGU8KnOsyTqga3noHAAw&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=matter%20though%20his%20parents%20be%20Spaniards%20or%20what%20you%20will%20on%20the%20other%20side%20if%20he%20be%20born%20of%20English%20parents%20it%20skilleth%20not&f=false

In general they were call "natural born subjects", but they acquired that Denizen status by naturalization.

Unknown said...

Part 3

Now that we understand that the phrase "natural born subject" encompassed all of the subjects of England, both born to subject parents within the realm, and naturalized subjects, lets move on.



The phrase "natural born citizen" is based on English *Common* Law (not statutory law).
The children of aliens, born in the US, were not citizens of the US at birth. Those children became citizens of the US when their parents naturalized.


"The children of aliens, born within the US are aliens; they do not acquire citizenship by birth; but remain in the condition of their parents; however, the naturalization of the father naturalizes all his children, who are in their minority and dwelling within the United States.
Footnote 12) In this particular our laws differ from the English laws; but are more consistent with reason and the laws of nature." (1817)
http://books.google.com/books?id=8340AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=%22the+children+of+aliens,+born+within+the+us+are+aliens%22&source=bl&ots=feTK3MKAUK&sig=Kpwe3kYUuZwmiscf4HX_n5jZenU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=2phhU-7JBJWzyATJ64CwBQ&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22the%20children%20of%20aliens%2C%20born%20within%20the%20us%20are%20aliens%22&f=false


In Congressman Saunder's Report on Naturalization in 1845, when speaking about the Naturalization Act of 1802, said:
" It further provides for the children of aliens, whether born within or out of the United States, ..."
http://books.google.com/books?id=YWEUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA129&dq=globe+%22whether+born+within+or+out+of+the+United+States%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KzmFU7C2E4PE8gGexoGYAw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=globe%20%22whether%20born%20within%20or%20out%20of%20the%20United%20States%22&f=false (third column, top)


"The laws of the United States on the subject of naturalization provide, in relation to persons situated as your sons are, that 'the children of persons duly naturalized under any of the laws of the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of their parents being so naturalized or admitted to the rights of citizenship, shall, if dwelling in the United States, be considered as citizens of the United States. Assuming that your three sons were born in France, accompanied you to this couutry and have continued to reside here (the fact is not distinctly stated in your letter) they, ****together with your son born here,**** are, under the provision just cited, to be considered, when dwelling in the United States, citizens of the United States, with all the rights and privileges attaching to that character ..." Congressional Serial Set - Page 403 (1886)
http://books.google.com/books?id=bKkZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA403&dq=Assuming+that+your+three+sons+were+born+in+France+accompanied+you+to+this+country+and+have&hl=en&sa=X&ei=I4OGU9WhHceSyATp-YDQCw&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Assuming%20that%20your%20three%20sons%20were%20born%20in%20France%20accompanied%20you%20to%20this%20country%20and%20have&f=false

Unknown said...

Part 4

"I find no fault with the introductory clause [of the 1866 Civil Rights Act], which is simply declaratory of what is written in the Constitution, that every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen;..." (Congressional Globe, 39th, 1st Sess.(1866), p.1291, center column)
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=071/llcg071.db&recNum=332

This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. (Congressional Globe: Senate, 39th Congress, 1st Session, 1866, p.2890, center column) http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llcg&fileName=073/llcg073.db&recNum=11


The citizens of the United States consist of Natural born citizens, and naturalized citizens.
Natural born are born of citizen parents in the country.

"Naturalized" are either naturalized at birth by statute ;
See:
US Code
Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality
Chapter 12 – Immigration and Nationality
Subchapter III - Nationality and Naturalization
Part I - Nationality at Birth and Collective Naturalization
Section 1401 - Nationals and Citizens of the United States at Birth
(Collective naturalization is when people have citizenship conferred on them without any action required on their part.)
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title8/pdf/USCODE-2011-title8-chap12-subchapIII-partI-sec1401.pdf

or they are naturalized by meeting requirements and taking an oath.
See:
US Code
Title 8 - Aliens and Nationality
Chapter 12 – Immigration and Nationality
Subchapter III - Nationality and Naturalization
Part II - Nationality Through Naturalization
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title8/pdf/USCODE-2011-title8-chap12-subchapIII-partII.pdf

Keeping in mind that the Supreme Court Justices in Wong Kim Ark weren't ignorant of the fact that "natural born subject" simply meant a subject of the crown, no matter if he/she was naturalized or not, then a lot of what they said makes more sense than it did before.
"Natural born subject" was a generic term in England, equivalent to "citizen" in the US.
They weren't trying to say that Wong Kim Ark was a natural born citizen, they were just saying that he was a citizen according to their (faulty) interpretation of the 14th amendment, and in particular the clause "subject to the jurisdiction thereof". Ignoring the congressional debates about that clause helped.
They basically made Wong Kim Ark a naturalized at birth citizen by the 14th amendment.

Just to pound the point into the ground:
"Every subject is either natus, born, or datus, given or made ...
There be regularly (unless it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born. 1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the King. 2. That the place of his birth be within the King's dominion. And, 3. The time of his birth is chiefly to be considered; for he cannot be a subject born of one kingdom that was born under the ligeance of a King of another kingdom," The reports of Sir Edward Coke Kt. In English, (1727) pgs 17 & 18
http://books.google.com/books?id=AdcsAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA17&dq=%22+natus,+born,+or+datus.+given+or+made%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=a8WGU_DbFYKhqAasnYK4AQ&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22%20natus%2C%20born%2C%20or%20datus.%20given%20or%20made%22&f=false
"Subject given or made" is self-evident, it was those that were naturalized.

Robert said...

WKA says that in order for a child born in the USA to be a citizen the parents must be permanently domiciled here. Mr. Obama's Dad was not. He was a student visitor here on a temporary visa. And, like every other foreigner visiting here, he had the right to pass on his citizenship (Kenyan) to his son and to take his son with him when he chose to return to Kenya - just like the parents of American citizens born abroad have the right to bring their children home to the USA.

The 14th Amendment includes in its criteria that to be born a citizen one must be born under complete US jurisdiction. Mr. Obama, Jr. was not. As he has stipulated, he was born under British jurisdiction as a British/Kenyan subject. And, just like every other British/Kenyan subject and every other child born here to foreign parents, he (of course as a child, through the parents) has recourse to their embassies to seek relief from US jurisdiction and is subject to be recalled by them should they require his services.

Mr. Obama is clearly not a natural born citizen: one born in the country to citizen parents (a definition endorsed by Mr. Obama). And, he may not even be a citizen if, as he has claimed for much of his professional life and as has been acknowledged by his grandmother and the Kenyan government, he was born in Kenya.

All of you arguing with Mario may wish to reconsider your point and with whom you are arguing. After all, Mr. Obama has never claimed to be a natural born citizen, nor has he ever documented that he is eligible to be POTUS. When he was running for the Senate against he dodged the question by saying that NBC wasn't necessary for POTUS. His state ballot applications have only indicated that he has been nominated by the Democrat Party - never that he is qualified. His only claim to POTUS is that he says he has received the majority of the vote (which does not apply for an ineligible candidate).

Hint: there's a reason for Mr. Obama's careful omissions. He knows full well that he's not eligible. What's taking you so long to figure this out?

Robert said...

Correction: When Mr. Obama was running for the Senate he dodged the NBC question by saying that NBC wasn't necessary for the Senate.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

Thank you for such a valuable comment. You have a correct understanding of how the English made their subjects by common law and by statute, and how, if a child was not born in the country to subject parents, they naturalized qualifying persons at birth, under both common law (if born in the country) and statute (if born out of the country) and considered them as “natural-born subjects.” You do point out that Cunningham read Calvin’s Case to say that children born in England to alien parents were “denizens.” You also correctly point out that they were generally called “natural-born subjects.” In fact, Blackstone called them “natural-born subjects.” You also correctly point out that regardless of what they were called, it does not change anything for purposes of our Constitution, for those children were still automatically naturalized at birth by the mere act of being born in the King’s dominion and under his obedience. Needing and being naturalized at birth, they could not be natural born citizens.

You have a correct understanding of the early naturalization acts of Congress which as you acknowledge treated children born in the United States to alien parents as aliens. The only children who did not need Congress’s naturalization grace under these acts were children born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents. It follows a fortiori that with these children not needing naturalization, they were, indeed, the natural born citizens in the true sense of the meaning of the clause a la John Jay (“natural born citizens” with “born” underlined to signify born a citizen by birth alone and not a "natural-born subject," made a born subject also through naturalization in whatever form it may come which had been the English common law and statutory law experience).

You have a correct understanding of the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark. Under the amendment and Wong Kim Ark, children born in the United States to friendly aliens are “citizens of the United States” at birth, but naturalized at birth as such. Hence, they are not nor can they be natural born citizens. Regardless of whether we interpret “subject to the jurisdiction” in a restrictive manner (subject to the political, military, and legal jurisdiction of the United States and not subject to any foreign power as suggested by the Civil Rights Act of 1866) or liberal manner (only subject to the laws of the United States as found by Wong Kim Ark), the definition of a natural born citizen does not change, for the Amendment neither repealed nor amended Article II’s natural born citizen clause and therefore only defines a “citizen of the United States,” not a “natural born citizen.”

Again, thank you for your valuable contribution to our understanding of the true meaning of a natural born citizen.

Slartibartfast said...

Well, the bloom is definitely off that rose...

Wilted Rose,

You're almost as prolix as Mario, but even all that verbiage can't hide a massive flaw in your argument---namely that Mr. Wong was not a naturalized citizen. We know this to be true because the Chinese Exclusion Act forbade the naturalization of subjects of the emperor. Since, as Mario has admitted, there are only two types of citizens, Mr. Wong is necessarily natural born. Since President Obama is a much a citizen (and by operation of the same principle) as Mr. Wong who is a citizen by the same principle that makes the natural born child of citizens a member of the nation, your whole argument just sort of falls apart.

Better luck next time.

Mario,

You said: "I said that a natural born citizen is a proper subset of citizens. You said that it is a subset. You are wrong and I am right."

Let's look at this sentence by sentence:

natural born citizen is a proper subset of citizens

Any natural born citizen is a citizen. Arnold Schwarzenegger is a naturalized citizen, he is therefore a citizen but not a natural born citizen. Thus, this statement is proven to be true. I have never denied this to be the case.

natural born citizen is a subset of citizens

Any natural born citizen is a citizen. Therefore the set of all natural born citizens is, by definition, a subset of the set of all citizens, just as I said. You claim that this statement is false.

[Slarti is] wrong and [Mario is] right

We see that, applied to the topic of set theory, this statement is undeniably false. Before saying this you made a false statement and a true one, while my position was true in both cases.

This is not an argument that you can try to refute, this is not my own opinion, expert or otherwise (although I do have relative expertise in this area), this is a proof which is exactly as valid as the Pythagorean theorem, Liouville's theorem or Gödel's theorem (if far, far sillier).

Of course this is just a trivial little digression but don't you think that people reading it might wonder if someone who is demonstrably incorrect on so basic and fundamental an issue might be egregiously wrong in other arguments as well?

Slartibartfast said...

Robert,

The story about the Obama-Keyes debate is apocryphal. There is no evidence that such an exchange ever happened. In any case, President Obama isn't alleged to have said he wasn't natural born, just that being natural born wasn't relevant to running for Senate.

Anonymous said...

Robert wrote: "The 14th Amendment includes in its criteria that to be born a citizen one must be born under complete US jurisdiction. Mr. Obama, Jr. was not. As he has stipulated, he was born under British jurisdiction as a British/Kenyan subject."

You failed to grasp the implication of your own observation. If Jr., through and like his father, was subject in the political sense to British jurisdiction and not American, (his father being an outsider exempt from military conscription and other authorities over citizens & immigrants) then by the 14th Amendment alone, and not place of birth, Obama was not born as an American citizen but British only.

Thus he is doubly not an nbc. He would not be one either if his father had been an immigrant, but he would at least have been a citizen.
What disqualifies one from being a natural citizen is being born of mixed and conflicting nationalities, resulting in a conflict of allegiances.

Like crossing a donkey and a Zebra. You don't get a natural donkey nor a natural Zebra; you get a Zedonk. It has a conflict of breed characteristics.
A natural citizen has no such conflicts but is purely one thing and one thing only.

Obama was not sociologically, politically, culturally, nor racially born as one single product of uniformity but of diversity, divergence,-deviant from the uniformity that is the natural result of parents with no difference between them; "of the same stock".

The Census Bureau calls such children as born of "foreign stock" rather than "native stock".
That means he was born with foreign alienage if he was born as a U.S. citizen.
But since he was British only, he had no foreign alienage from the view of American law but he did from the British view.
a.r.nash

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

Thanks to Wilted Rose for his 4 part comment on May 29, 2014 at 2:26 AM, and for his links to the original sources.

Thanks to Mario for his synopsis on May 29, 2014 at 11:46 AM.

I thought it would help our Obama-birther friends to rebut the original intent of original genesis as understood by the 1787 original birthers, the 1787 original Framers, if they could read the synopsis with itemized lines.


- - - - - - - - - -


-1-Wilted Rose,

-2-Thank you for such a valuable comment.
-3-You have a correct understanding of
-4-how the English made their subjects
>> -5->> by common law and
>> -6->> by statute,
-7-and how, if a child was not born in the country to subject parents,
-8-they naturalized qualifying persons at birth,
>> -9->> under both common law
-10-(if born in the country)
>> -11->> and statute
-12-(if born out of the country)
-13-and considered them as “natural-born subjects.”

-14-You do point out that Cunningham read Calvin’s Case to say that
>> -15->> children born in England to alien parents were “denizens.”

-16-You also correctly point out
-17-that they were generally called “natural-born subjects.”
-18-In fact, Blackstone called them “natural-born subjects.”

-19-You also correctly point out that regardless of what they were called,
-20-it does not change anything for purposes of our Constitution,
-21-for those children were still automatically naturalized at birth
-22-by the mere act of being born in the King’s dominion and under his obedience.

-23-Needing and being naturalized at birth,
-24-they could not be natural born citizens.

>>-25->> You have a correct understanding of the early naturalization acts of Congress
-26-which as you acknowledge treated children
-27-born in the United States to alien parents as aliens.

>>-28->> The only children who did not need
-29-Congress’s naturalization grace under these acts
-30-were children born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents.

-31-It follows a fortiori that with these children not needing naturalization,
>>-32->> they were, indeed, the natural born citizens
-33-in the true sense of the meaning of the clause a la John Jay
-34-(“natural born citizens”
>>-35->> with “born” underlined
-36-to signify born a citizen by birth alone
-37-and not a "natural-born subject,"
-38-made a born subject also through naturalization
-39-in whatever form it may come
-40-which had been the English common law and statutory law experience).


-41-You have a correct understanding of the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark.

-42-Under the amendment and Wong Kim Ark,
-43-children born in the United States to friendly aliens
-44-are “citizens of the United States” at birth,
>>-45->> but naturalized at birth as such.

-46->>>>>>>>>> Hence, they are not nor can they be natural born citizens.<<<<<<<<<<

-47-Regardless of whether we interpret “subject to the jurisdiction”
>>-48->> in a restrictive manner
-49-(subject to the political, military, and legal jurisdiction of the United States
-50-and not subject to any foreign power as suggested by the Civil Rights Act of 1866)
>>-51->> or liberal manner
-52-(only subject to the laws of the United States as found by Wong Kim Ark),
>>-53->> the definition of a natural born citizen does not change,
-54-for the Amendment
-55-neither repealed
-56-nor amended
-57-Article II’s natural born citizen clause
-58-and therefore only defines
>>-59->> a “citizen of the United States,” not
>>-60->> a “natural born citizen.”


-61-Again, thank you for your valuable contribution to our understanding of the true meaning of a natural born citizen.

Dittos.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original “Birther” Document of the “Union”

Anonymous said...

dick head said..."No evidence GW was not a NBC? The US did not even come into existence until 44 years after his birth"

Reality check: NBC does not equal NBC of USA. They are two separate things.
The president only had to be nbc, NOT nbc of the USA.
Almost all of the founders were nbc, -of their own country, their own colony, their own self-liberated republic, nation, state, all of which had their own government, leader, legislative body and courts.
All of which were independent sovereign nations from July 4th, 1776.
All native American men were natural citizens and shared responsibility for their society, -for its security and governance. That is the definition of CITIZEN. And they were such naturally via blood conveyance from fathers who were citizens before them.

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash wants us to consider the individual words.

Mr. Telles wants us to consider the original intent of the Founders.

Mario wants... well, I'm not sure what Mario wants besides burying us under a pile of verbiage.

I'm giving you all what you wish.

natural born citizen

Birthers often focus on the word "natural", however, if we consider the nomenclature in which the Founders chose to write the Constitution, all citizens are natural citizens, whether they became so at their birth or were made so by statute later in life. Thus all citizens possess the quality of being natural which is implied in this phrase.

natural born citizen

Birthers also like to argue that the Founders choice of "citizen" rather than "subject" reflects some profound philosophical difference which should be inferred here. To address this topic, what better source could there be than the interpretation of the Founder's original intent by the Holy and Unanimous SCOTUS in Minor v. Happersett. They said:

"For convenience it has been found necessary to give a name to this membership. The object is to designate by a title the person and the relation he bears to the nation. For this purpose the words 'subject,' 'inhabitant,' and 'citizen' have been used, and the choice between them is sometimes made to depend upon the form of the government. Citizen is now more commonly employed, however, and as it has been considered better suited to the description of one living under a republican government, it was adopted by nearly all of the States upon their separation from Great Britain, and was afterwards adopted in the Articles of Confederation and in the Constitution of the United States. When used in this sense it is understood as conveying the idea of membership of a nation, and nothing more."

So, according to They Who Are Never Wrong, the Founders weren't using the term "citizen" to imply anything more than that a person was a member of the United States.

natural born citizen

Since "natural" and "citizen" don't help us distinguish those who satisfy the Article II requirement from the rest of the body politic, we must turn to the word "born". By definition, this means "existing as a result of birth". So, in context, the phrase refers to those who's natural condition of membership in the nation existed as a result of their birth. What of the Founder's intent? Well, we know that John Jay emphasized the word "born" in his letter to George Washington, so he seems to have felt that the focus should be on "born" rather than "citizen" or "natural".

In addition, we know that Justice Jay's good friend and fellow New Yorker Alexander Hamilton proposed the wording "born a citizen". Since it is virtually certain that the two met while the Constitution was being written and would have discussed it, it is reasonable to assume that they agreed on this topic. After all, if John Jay felt it important enough to send a letter to George Washington, he would certainly have thought it important enough to try and convince his friend who was involved in the writing of the Constitution. This means that we would expect Hamilton's lay term "born a citizen" to mean the same thing as Jay's lawyerly term "natural born citizen".

All of this adds up to make it clear that the Founders intent was to restrict the Presidency to only those who became citizens of the United States at birth rather than being naturalized later in life.

Be careful what you wish for.

ajtelles said...

Be careful...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., wrote

>> “Be careful what you wish for” on May 29, 2014 at 3:34 PM.

In his last paragraph, S... got very close to the original intent truth about the original genesis implications of John Jay underling the word "born" in "natural born Citizen." The John Jay common sense impliocit presupposition is obvious, "born" MUST mean ONLY being born on U.S. soil (and jurisdictions) with the concomitant implicit common sense presupposition that birth MUST mean ONLY birth to TWO married persons who are also U.S. citizens.

- - - - - - - - - -

S... wrote -

>> "All of this adds up to make it clear
>> that the Founders intent
>> was to restrict the Presidency
>> to only those who became citizens
>> of the United States
>> at birth
>> rather than being naturalized
>> later in life.”


- - - - - - - - - -

S..., dittos to “... became citizens” and also "... at birth."

S..., it looks like you agree with John Jay that "born" means BOTH born on U.S. soil AND born to TWO U.S. citizens. Right?

S..., it looks like you agree with John Jay that, just as birth can only result from the union of two persons, so also citizenship can only result from the two parents. Right?

S..., if one parent has U.S. citizenship and one parent has foreign citizenship, then the child is ALSO a “citizen” with dual citizenship. Right?

S..., if BOTH parents have ONLY U.S. citizenship, then their child also has ONLY U.S. citizenship. Right?

S..., which child is a “natural born Citizen” and eligible to the Office of President?

S..., is it the child with dual citizenship or is it the child with single citizenship?

S..., when John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit presupposition that it meant ONLY born on U.S. soil with the concomitant presupposition of born to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, are you and Obama-birthers "truthing" or lying when asserting that John Jay was ALSO implicitly presupposing that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS?

S..., was John Jay "truthing" or lying when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the perpetual implicit presupposition that, in 1787 and perpetually, “born” meant ONLY born on U.S. soil (& jurisdictions) and ONLY born to TWO U.S. citizen parents?

S..., these are simple original intent and original genesis questions. Right?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...
...even all that verbiage can't hide a massive flaw in your argument---namely that Mr. Wong was not a naturalized citizen. We know this to be true because the Chinese Exclusion Act forbade the naturalization of subjects of the emperor.

Answer:
The Chinese Exclusion Acts only applied to those born in China.

From Wong Kim Ark:
"The acts of Congress known as the Chinese Exclusion Acts, the earliest of which was passed some fourteen years after the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, cannot control its meaning or impair its effect, but must be construed and executed in subordination to its provisions. And the right of the United States, as exercised by and under those acts, to exclude or to expel from the country persons of the Chinese race ***born in China*** and continuing to be subjects of the Emperor of China, though having acquired a commercial domicil in the United States, has been upheld by this court for reasons applicable to all aliens alike, and inapplicable to citizens of whatever race or color. Chae Chan Ping v. United States, 130 U.S. 581; Nishimura Ekiu v. United States, 142 U.S. 651; Fong Yue Ting v. United States, 149 U.S. 698; Lem Moon Sing v. United States, 158 U.S. 538; Wong Wing v. United States, 163 U.S. 228."

and:

"It is conceded that, if he is a citizen of the United States, the acts of Congress, known as the Chinese Exclusion Acts, prohibiting persons of the Chinese race, and especially Chinese laborers, from coming into the United States, do not and cannot apply to him."
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649#writing-USSC_CR_0169_0649_ZO




"The major provision of the 14th amendment was to grant citizenship to “All persons born or naturalized in the United States,”
http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=43

"The 14th Amendment to the Constitution was ratified on July 9, 1868, and granted citizenship to “all persons born or naturalized in the United States,” which included former slaves recently freed."
http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/14thamendment.html

A "grant of citizenship" is naturalization.
There is no need to "grant" citizenship to someone who is born with it.

Reading is Fun-damental.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

You said to Wilted Rose:

“You're almost as prolix as Mario, but even all that verbiage can't hide a massive flaw in your argument---namely that Mr. Wong was not a naturalized citizen. We know this to be true because the Chinese Exclusion Act forbade the naturalization of subjects of the emperor. Since, as Mario has admitted, there are only two types of citizens, Mr. Wong is necessarily natural born.”

First, we do not get to positive affirmations by first denying a premise in our argument, unless we are dealing with finite and well defined elements of a set. With “born” and “naturalization, we are not dealing with a set that contains just two well-defined elements. For example, if the set is 1 and 2, if we know that it is not 1, then it must be 2. But born and naturalization are not numbers and do not work that way, for we have to first all agree on the definition of naturalization. Of course, you use one that is convenient for you, one that denies naturalization at birth. I have repeatedly told you that you cannot bootstrap one to be a natural born citizen by telling us that he is not a naturalized citizen under your self-imposed limited definition of what is a naturalized citizen. Your argument is fallacious.

Second, the Chinese Exclusion Acts did not control Wong’s citizenship fate because the Wong Court said that the Fourteenth Amendment, which was passed before the Acts were passed, trumped them. The Court explained:

“The acts of Congress known as the Chinese Exclusion Acts, the earliest of which was passed some fourteen years after the adoption of the Constitutional Amendment, cannot control its meaning or impair its effect, but must be construed and executed in subordination to its provisions. And the right of the United States, as exercised by and under those acts, to exclude or to expel from the country persons of the Chinese race born in China and continuing to be subjects of the Emperor of China, though having acquired a commercial domicil in the United States, has been upheld by this court for reasons applicable to all aliens alike, and inapplicable to citizens of whatever race or color.Chae Chan Ping v. United States, 130 U.S. 581; Nishimura Ekiu v. United States, 142 U.S. 651; Fong Yue Ting v. United States, 149 U.S. 698; Lem Moon Sing v. United States, 158 U.S. 538; Wong Wing v. United States, 163 U.S. 228.”
U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 699 (1898)."

The Court explained that the Acts, and the same argument would apply to any treaty, “cannot control its [the Fourteenth Amendment’s] meaning or impair its effect.” It also said that those Acts had to be “construed and executed in subordination to its provisions.” Hence, the Fourteenth Amendment prevented Congress from imposing those acts upon someone who could gain the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment. To make its point more clear, the Court added that since persons born out of the United States did not fall under the citizenship clause of the Amendment, Congress could deal with those persons as it saw fit, regardless of their race or color. So, Congress’s hands were tied with respect to any person who could gain citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. On the other hand, Congress had free rein to do as it pleased with persons born out of the United States.
That Wong could not be naturalized by an Act of Congress or was prevented by treaty from doing so means nothing, for the Fourteenth Amendment trumped any such act and treaty. And it was exactly the Fourteenth Amendment, which Congress could not control, that naturalized Wong at birth.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

There is evidence right in Wong Kim Ark that the Fourteenth Amendment can and does naturalize persons to be “citizens of the United States.” In the dissent, Chief Justice Fuller said:

“In providing that persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens, the Fourteenth Amendment undoubtedly had particular reference to securing citizenship to the members of the colored race, whose servile status had been obliterated by the Thirteenth Amendment and who had been born in the United States, but were not and never had been subject to any foreign power. They were not aliens (and, even if they could be so regarded, this operated as a collective naturalization), and their political status could not be affected by any change of the laws for the naturalization of individuals.”

Id. at 727.

Indeed, if the Fourteenth Amendment could effect “collective naturalization” of a whole class of alien born, it could also naturalize one alien-born child at a time as he or she was born in the United Stated to alien parents.

So, you have not proven that Obama is a natural born citizen because he was not naturalized. That is nothing more than a fallacious argument. And I have shown that acquiring his born citizen status under the Fourteenth Amendment, since he was not a natural born citizen, he had to be naturalized by the Fourteenth Amendment at birth.

ajtelles said...

Article II v 14th Amendment

Mario, your response to Slartibartfast, aka S..., on May 29, 2014 at 9:27 PM in the last two paragraphs is clear -

“Indeed,
>> if the Fourteenth Amendment could effect
>> “collective naturalization” of a whole class of alien born,
>> it could also naturalize one alien-born child at a time
as he or she was born in the United Stated to alien parents.


So,
you have not proven
that Obama is a natural born citizen
because he was not naturalized.

That is nothing more than a fallacious argument.

And I have shown that
>> acquiring his born citizen status under the Fourteenth Amendment,
since he was not a natural born citizen,
>> he had to be naturalized
by the Fourteenth Amendment
>> at birth.”

May 29, 2014 at 9:27 PM

- - - - - - - - - -


S... said to Wilted Rose -

>> “You're almost as prolix as Mario, but even all that verbiage can't hide a massive flaw in your argument---namely that Mr. Wong was not a naturalized citizen.

>> We know this to be true because the Chinese Exclusion Act forbade the naturalization of subjects of the emperor.

>> Since, as Mario has admitted, there are only two types of citizens, Mr. Wong is necessarily natural born.”

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, S... tried his Wong Kim Ark "since ... natural born" conclusion before, on April 22, 2014 at 5:51 PM.

I started my comment to you and then included S...'s comment (in italics below) -

>> “Mario, on April 22, 2014 at 1:53 AM, S...fast asked for “logical proof” after referring exclusively to the 1868 14th amendment and the 1898 Wong Kim Ark court case … .”

- - - - - - - - - -

[...]

>> "4. Since the 14th Amendment says in part,
>> "All persons born...in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,
>> "are citizens of the United States",
>> "President Obama was a citizen of the United States at birth due to (3).

>. "5. The SCOTUS ruled Wong Kim Ark to be a citizen of the United States due to the same phrase from the 14th Amendment.

>> "6. Mr. Wong was of Chinese descent.

>> "7. People of Chinese descent were prohibited from naturalization by the Chinese Exclusion Act.

>> "8. Therefore
>> "Mr. Wong must have been a natural born citizen due to (2), (6) and (7)

>> "9. As President Obama derives his citizenship
>> "from the same source as Mr. Wong,
>> "he is a natural born citizen as well.

>> "Clearly, if statements 1 through 8 are correct, statement 9 is true as well. ...."

[...]

>> "… Can you come up with a logical proof
>> "that President Obama is not natural born
>> "that depends on only one or two hypotheses
>> "that are supported more firmly than 1 and 2?"


- - - - - - - - - -

>> "6. Mr. Wong was of Chinese descent.
>> "7. People of Chinese descent were prohibited from naturalization by the Chinese Exclusion Act.
>> "8. Therefore
>> "Mr. Wong must have been a natural born citizen due to (2), (6) and (7)


My original intent response to S... started with -

>> “S...fast, #6 “was” and #7 “prohibited” and #8 “therefore … must have been” are not logically consistent. I can see that, and I'm not even a logician. So, how can you see what is not there?

[...]

- - - - - - - - - -

The Obama-birthers MUST defend Wong Kim Ark as a "natural born Citizen" to defend the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS. See, if Wong Kim Ark, who was born on U.S. soil to TWO alien parents, helps the agenda, then of course, ONLY ONE U.S. parent MUST be even better.

Of course.

Art

U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

I detect a lot of childless intelligent idiots around these parts. Does no one but myself understand the implication of "born"? It is absolutely NOT!!!!! about borders or place of birth, -or the transition from womb to world. It is all about BLOOD!!! Here's why.

Suppose you are a strict, devote religious father and one day upon returning from the fields and entering your humble abode, you see your wife holding a newborn. So you ask; "Where did that come from?"

She, with great angst points to your fifteen year old daughter, -who had put on a few pounds the last half year, -being heavy-set to begin with.
You train your eyes on your daughter who is petrified with anxiety, and you ask her: "Where did that come from?"
She answers: "It was born. uh... -I gave birth to it."
You ask again with clenched teeth: "WHERE!!! did that come from???"

Is she being asked about what borders her baby was born within? What soil she was on during delivery? Hell NO!!!

What is her father asking her? You all know the answer but pretend you live in some alternate world where reality doesn't intrude. He is asking only what thing: what is it's origin; who is its originator, who fathered that baby?

What does he do next? Does he kiss the ground and thank God that his grandson was born within the hallowed boundaries of their nation, or does he get his shotgun and start talking about a wedding?

"BORN" relates solely to origin of life. There isn't any other word to represent what it actually means so the ambiguous "born" must be used, even though it refers to the entire process of origination from conception to gestation to delivery.
That process can occur deep underground, on the ocean floor, on Antarctica, or off-planet. Where is unimportant in regard to natural belonging. "WHO" is all that matters. Who are the parents. Americans or aliens?

If both are not of the same nation then the child they produce will not be a natural member of either nation because of its divided, conflicted, hybrid political nature.
a.r.nash

Anonymous said...

For over half a millennium pundits, politicians, philosophers, and legal historians have pontificated regarding the usage and meaning of "naturalize" and "naturalization", but none of them knew its origin. They all just parroted what they were taught by the generation before them.

Its roots are probably unknown, dating back to the Norman conquest of 1066 or back to the Romans. All we can deduce is that since the choice of word was not "subjectized" or citizenized" there must be a root origin in the word "natural"; as in being made natural, -a natural member, -although an outsider by birth.

Combining that fact with the national policy of Britain and her colonies of permitting and honoring jus soli national membership, (-a policy perhaps originating in the aftermath of the Norman invasion), jus soli native-born membership became an element of the fabric of the two nations.

It was a fundamental policy of the colonies and continued in the States although rejected by the executive branch of the federal government, -or not, depending on which party was in power.
One federal view was that alien-born native citizens were American "by birth", -NOT by naturalization. To them, naturalization was only the voluntary process of swearing total allegiance to the U.S. Constitution and nation and renouncing all foreign loyalty and obedience.

They did not consider them "naturalized at birth" or "made natural citizens upon birth". They did not think about the principles involved, labeling them simply as "born citizens" or "native-born citizens".

As such, they were "born in the United States" and not among those mentioned in the 14th Amendment "or naturalized". They, the States and those who expressed their view, had no concept of "naturalized at birth" since they were blind to the lack of any principle behind such citizenship.
Such Americans were born as citizens, even though in reality they were not born as natural citizens in fact -though born as natural citizens by legal fiction (citizens made).

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: " I have shown that acquiring his born citizen status under the Fourteenth Amendment, since he was not a natural born citizen, he had to be naturalized by the Fourteenth Amendment at birth."

Why do you continue to pretend that Obama qualified for citizenship under the 14th Amendment? What is the matter with you?
I've explained to you a dozen different times and ways why he was not born subject to the political authority of the national government and yet you choose to continue to pretend that we was. Why?????

Why ask,.. I know why... because nothing is allowed to penetrate your armor, including facts, law, history, or logic.

There's also the little matter of not having the courage to take such a position. It would be very "extreme", -make you appear less "establishment", more of a conspiracy nut-job, a wacko-bird. Best to just stay away from what ALL of the evidence points to. That's just a bridge-too-far.

The down-side of playing it safe is that you then have to support a falsehood by stating that Obama has American citizenship by American law when he does not, and your mind knows it.
But then, it knows a lot of things that you must pretend that you don't know. But by shear force of will, you have cemented over all of your inner doubts and conflicts. At that you are the king of all deniers.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You, Jack Maskell, and other Obots maintain that any born citizen is a natural born citizen. As I have demonstrated, your argument fails. Either you do not provide historical and legal evidentiary support for your argument or whatever evidence you do provide does not support your argument.

ajtelles said...

"...load of dung"...

Mario, Slartibartfast, aka S... is busy... busy... busy... fulfilling his paid or unpaid "cadre" marching orders defending the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS, and defending BHObama's birth certificate and release of records.

#5 expresses the dual citizenship theory of the Obama-birthers in a way that reveals that the ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent theory is bogus.

S... posted this on YouGov.com in response to Jack Hollis -

>> https://today.yougov.com/news/2014/05/22/who-natural-born-citizen/

- - - - - - - - - -

"What an incredible load of dung.

1. The "British View" was that anyone born a subject was a natural born subject---by Calvin's case for those born in the liegance of the king (which included the children of aliens temporarily sojourning in the nation) or by act of parliament for the children of Englishmen born overseas.

2. While it is true that there are no birthers who support President Obama's policies yet believe him to be ineligible, there are plenty of anti-birthers who don't support President Obama but believe him to be eligible.

3. The child of aliens temporarily in the country (so long as they aren't diplomats or enemy soldiers) is a natural born citizen. See Lynch v. Clark or Wong Kim Ark

4. Every nation gets to decide for themselves how their citizenship is passed on---it is their sovereign right. Various methods are employed by different countries, but many (including the US) follow the principle of jus soli which doesn't require citizen parents.

5. President Obama had British citizenship at birth, but that didn't effect his natural born US citizenship from being born under US jurisdiction.

6. Citizens of Indonesia were guaranteed an education, that doesn't mean that non-citizens were denied one (in any case, President Obama's parents lied and listed him as an Indonesian citizen on a school registration).

7. He could not have been made an Indonesian citizen via adoption as that requires the adoptee to appear to a state official at the parent's residence before their 5th birthday and President Obama didn't leave Hawai'i until after his 5th birthday.

8. Even if President Obama gained Indonesian citizenship, it wouldn't have effected his US citizenship (see Perkins v. Elg)

9. Neither parents nor minors are allowed to renounce citizenship.

10. The COLB (or any other proof of birth in Hawai'i) shows that President Obama is a natural born US citizen---nothing was required to affirm this when he returned from Indonesia.

11. The only records of President Obama which are sealed are those that would also be sealed by law for you or I.

12. He never lost his citizenship, so it didn't need to be restored.

13. He has always been a natural born citizen."

- - - - - - - - -

Mario, your online tutorials are definitely STILL needed, and S...'s obfuscatory articulation of the Obama-birther narrative is proof of that.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Slarti opined: "1. The "British View" was that anyone born a subject was a natural born subject-"

He presents that with an utterly false implication, which is that it has some intrinsic relationship to what the Americans required for POTUS, when it had none.

He totally avoids acknowledging that the British attached their bastardized, consolidated, umbrella term; "natural-born subject" to EVERYONE who was a subject, including all naturalized aliens.

When will he dare to explain to everyone just what subjects were NOT "natural-born subjects"?

"3. The child of aliens temporarily in the country ... is a natural born citizen. See Lynch v. Clark or Wong Kim Ark"

Well others could claim it as well as Slarti can claim it, but opinions never make anything true. It doesn't what anyone said. All that matter is what the fundamental principles are.

With the British, there were none. It was all just a matter of arbitrary policy, -and that continued in the States, but was rejected at the American federal level as inconsistent with Natural Law, -the law of Nature that off-spring cannot be different from those who produce them, and by which an individual, as well as a family unit, can have only one... single... natural nationality. Two being totally UN-natural.

No one can have two husbands nor two kings, -nor two governments nor two nations with two allegiances.

It was viewed as an unacceptably freakish situation to violate that policy and embrace one with an inherent international nationality conflict. By nature, there should be and is no question about which nation a baby belongs to. It is naturally that of the parents who are of the same nation.

Anonymous said...

Slarti fantasized: "4. Every nation gets to decide for themselves how their citizenship is passed on---it is their sovereign right."

Nations are not people, nor are they governments. Nations decide nothing. People decide.
The utterly ambiguous claim that "it is their sovereign right" means, in reality, The People decide, -not "the nation".

The governments of representative republics are governed by the people chosen to represent the interests of The People. They have no interest or need to invent rules to allow or disallow the national membership of the native inhabitants (themselves) who created the government and voted for their choices to run it.

It is false and deceptive to claim that rules are needed for any other than outsiders and hybrids.

Are rules needed to figure-out if a baby belongs to its mother? It's father? It's siblings? NO!!! It NATURALLY belongs to its own, including its own country. That is the first and foremost of their "SACRED RIGHTS" as Citizens (A. Hamilton).
If that were not true, then newborns belong to the government and not the parents.

To claim that native children of citizens are also citizens because of an unwritten rule about borders and birth within them, is serpentine in its deceptiveness. It is literally impossible to ever prove such a claim because natural membership pre-dates arbitrary, territorial boundary membership by a few hundred million years.

The unnatural soil-based membership has no connection to nature whatsoever so it is asinine to believe that American children of citizens do NOT inherit their national membership.
Just try to prove that they do not, and you will miserably fail. Why? Because it is all in your mind.

It is a legal fiction that alien-born babies are naturally members of a nation to which neither they nor the parents that produced them belong.

All of the debate isn't about hard facts derived from hard laws, but about doctrines, dogmas, policies, rules, traditions, and views that are NOT legal in nature.
They are purely sociological and follow no natural principle unless they follow the natural law of blood relationships, -natural belonging.

It all boils down to the meaning of "natural". Is it defined by language or by politics? Chose incorrectly and your whole viewpoint will end up wrong.
The founders returned to the natural meaning of "natural" and that is why it is not analogous to "natural-born citizen" (with a hyphen).

Anonymous said...

Slarti dissembled: "5. President Obama had British citizenship at birth, but that didn't effect his natural born US citizenship from being born under US jurisdiction."

Are you in the third grade? You must be really stupid or really inexperienced in the real world. Since it isn't the former it must be the latter. Tell me this; how many days of your life have you spent in combat service for your country?

Zero, and yet you erroneously presume that mere intelligence alone opens your eyes to reality. Well, I have news for you. IT DOES NOT!

You haven't the faintest grasp of what full sovereign federal jurisdiction is, and you never will. You live in the ignorant dark of the protected, secure civilian world, never conceiving that there is another entirely unknown (to you) dimension to citizenship. And that is a man's innate obligation of National Defense service.

Who do you suppose keeps you free? Mercenaries? Or citizens?

But in addition to the government's authority over all males living in America, which is jurisdiction that no foreign visitor or guest has ever been under, -essentially in the history of the world, there is also the taxing jurisdiction and the jurisdiction over prohibited activity that citizens and immigrants are barred from (trade sanctions, travel bans).

Unless you and your ilk want to proclaim that babies are directlysubservient to government and not their parents, then you are forced to admit that Obama Jr., through his father, was born free of the U.S. federal jurisdiction that applies to citizens and immigrants.

If you actually grow a brain and stop thinking like a first grader, you will recognize that Obama Sr. could not be drafted into the U.S. Army, could not be required to pay U.S. federal taxes, nor prohibited from visiting Cuba. He was under British jurisdiction, NOT U.S.

That put his son beyond the reach of the 14th Amendment which only described children of citizens and immigrants. Thus Jr., like the child of an ambassador, was not born a citizen of the United States by the very logic and principle of the Amendment that you rely on to falsely assert that Obama is a U.S. citizen, -a born citizen, and a natural born citizen.

I beg you to attempt to offer a rebuttal to those facts. No one yet has dared to try, including Mario, who stands with you as to the falsehood that Obama is a U.S. citizen.
a.r.nash

Carlyle said...

This is VERY relevant to what you have going on here. It is beyond comprehensible. I would like to see one of your OBOTs come up with just one sane explanation.

http://www.exposeobama.com/2014/05/29/the-reason-obama-turned-down-50-million-might-just-make-a-birther-out-of-you/

Anonymous said...

Slarti erred: "7. He could not have been made an Indonesian citizen via adoption as that requires the adoptee to appear to a state official at the parent's residence before their 5th birthday and President Obama didn't leave Hawai'i until after his 5th birthday."

You don't know what you're talking about. Before age five, adoption produced automatic naturalization. Only from school age and forward was the naturalization process required.

Lolo would have adopted his sweetheart's only child as would any man marrying the love of his life. They came as a package. The adoption process would have taken place or begun in Honolulu at the Indonesian Consulate.

Jr. had no Hawaiian birth certificate and thus could not acquire a U.S. passport so he needed Indonesian papers to travel to Indonesia with his mother, and they were obtain via adoption.

That would have no effect on a natural American citizen but since he wasn't a citizen it also had no effect except to give him the one of the things in life that he was missing; a legally establishes nationality.

When he returned to live in Hawaii, he traveled as an Indonesian national with an Indonesian passport.

Slarti can't counter that with any evidence to the contrary because there isn't any. "Let's just have a look at Obama's passport history." "Nope, they're missing or off-limits. No one is allowed to see them."
That is because they do not exist. No Freedom of Information request will produce them.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife/,

I of II

Why do you not practice what you preach? You put so much emphasis on the parents of a child, but yet deny the importance of the country of those parents. You say that you agree that children follow the condition of their parents (partus sequitur patrem), but yet you denounce the idea that children must be born in the nation of their parents in order to be natural born citizens. Let me briefly demonstrate why civilized world development proves you wrong.

In the beginning of time, man roamed the earth in small groups. Each group moved about the earth in constant search of food, shelter, and safety. The groups got bigger and bigger for the purpose of better providing for their food, shelter, and safety. The earth that these groups inhabited had no legal boundaries. Each group inhabited certain locations of the earth which they considered to be advantageous to them. With time, these groups grew larger and larger and more sophisticated. For the sake of gaining better advantages, they learned more sophisticated means of gathering food, defending themselves from the elements of nature and enemies, and communication. These groups also made laws which were to guide the members of the group to behave according to the rules of the group. The groups also conquered other groups so that they could become stronger and gain more advantages. With time and as the population of the groups grew, these groups became villages, which became cities, which became provinces, which became countries, which became nations. Each nation was populated by its people, who spoke their unique languages, and practiced their own religions, cultures, and customs. Each nation was also guided by its own laws. The member's of these nations also selected governments which were to protect them to a greater degree than they could do by themselves.

With the creation of the nation state came borders which demarcated where the people of a nation were located. Over time, it was within these borders that a nation’s people’s identity was preserved. So as to preserve and perpetuate itself, it became necessary for the nation to identify who were its members and to give those members duties in return for rights. Hence, with the nation state came the sovereign right in those nations to decide who shall be its members. The nation expected these members to have a tie or allegiance to the nation and thereby work to preserve, protect, and perpetuate the nation in return for which the nation protected each one of its members. Nations declared who were going to be its members in various ways. One way was by jus sanguinis or by being born to member parents, regardless of the place of birth. Another was by jus soli or by being born in the nation’s territory, regardless of the membership of one’s parents. A third way was by naturalizing through naturalization laws persons who chose for various reasons to be members of the nation after their birth. Because of this dual-based system of membership and the conflicting allegiance and membership that it created, the law of nations developed a definition that a natural born member who it called a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, a birth circumstance which assured that a child was born with sole allegiance to the country of the child’s parents. All the rest of a nation’s members, however that membership was obtained, were its citizens. Emer de Vattel, Sections 211-233, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

The Founders and Framers adopted these principles of the law of nations. We learn from the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) that these principles were incorporated into the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution. Hence, the Framers defined a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. As can be seen, both birth in the country and birth to citizen parents are necessary for a child to be born as a natural born citizen. But the large nation could not survive and prosper with just natural born citizens. So the Framers saw to it that more citizens could be made by means other than that which made natural born citizens. They therefore gave to Congress the power to naturalize persons to become citizens. Through Acts of Congress, Congress granted U.S. citizenship to qualifying children born in the county to alien parents, to qualifying children born out of the country to citizen parents, and to qualifying adults who were not born to either citizen parents or in the country (such citizenship also extended by treaty). All these other members were citizens, not natural born citizens.

So, being a natural born citizen is not just about being born to citizen parents, but also about being born in the country of one’s parents. Being born in a country that is not the country of one’s parents will only make that the place of birth, whereas being born in the country of one’s parents will make that one’s country. Vattel, Section 212.

ajtelles said...

2 urls at BirtherReport...

Mario, at BirtherReport are two posts.

One is titled "Natural Born Citizen Defined" -

>> http://www.birtherreport.com/2014/05/arra-news-service-natural-born-citizen.html

The other post is titled -

_Shock Poll: Birthers Alive & Well;
_55% Of Republicans Say Obama Not Eligible;
_14% Not Sure

>> http://www.birtherreport.com/2014/05/shock-poll-birthers-alive-well-31-of.html

The second post mentions that you have been opposing the "manure" of CON and Reality Check at YouGov.com in the post titled "Who Is A Natural Born Citizen" -

"Beware, CON and Reality Check are all over the comment section doing what they do best. Spreading OBot manure, but being apposed by Mario Apuzzo and a few others."

>> http://today.yougov.com/news/2014/05/22/who-natural-born-citizen/

- - - - - - - - -

Mario, what got my attention in the BirtherReport statement that the "manure" of CON and Reality Check have been "opposed by Mario Apuzzo and a few others" is that, "a few others" are NOT named.

Maybe it's time for others to reveal themselves as you have, with name v name point-counterpoint opposition to the "manure" of CON and Reality Check and Slartibartfast, aka S..., and et alii.

I made a comment a couple of days ago, about #485 or so, +/-, but only once. S... is there multiple times, fulfilling his paid or unpaid "cadre" marching orders to obfuscate in defense of the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: " it became necessary for the nation to identify who were its members and to give those members duties in return for rights."

That contains two huge errors. The government did not need to identify who were members but who were NOT members.
That was very simply done. Alien parents produce alien off-spring. Any acceptance of such off-spring as fellow members was by the grace of the people of the nation. Such children were a tiny fraction of the almost universally native inhabitants of the nation.

You wrote that government "gives duties" to the people in exchange for rights.

That frames reality incorrectly. Adults are responsible for the young and the old, the sick and disabled, the weak and the vulnerable.
Government does not assign adults their natural responsibility. It is an intrinsic obligation of humanity.

"with the nation state came the sovereign right in those nations to decide who shall be its members."

That statement is 100% weasel words, amorphous, indefinite, abstract as could be.
Question 1. Where did the sovereign right come from. From nowhere?

Question 2. Whose right was it or to whom did it belong; Government? -or The People?

Question 3. Why did the People need to decide whether or not they were members of their own country?

Question 4. Why would they cede to the State their right to belong to the country into which they were born via parents who were members?

Question 5. Why would the membership of any but outsiders and "half-breeds" need to be "decided"?

Did the right of your non-existent children need to be "decided" by government or were they naturally yours?
Whats the intrinsic difference between one's personal family and one's national family especially if both are of the same "people"?
If they are perfectly analogous, then what's there to decide?

No parent can "decide" that his or her children to not belong to them. And no nation can decide such a thing either. That is why foreign-born Americans are automatically citizens, -not by grant but as acknowledgement of human sociological and political reality. Family is family. Period.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "The nation expected these members to have a tie or allegiance to the nation...in return for which the nation protected each one of its members"

That's true if you are a woman. It is not true if you are a man. If you are a man then the opposite is true. YOU are the one to protect the nation, -not the other way around. You are born with that latent obligation, and it comes to fruition at adulthood.

"Nations declared who were going to be its members in various ways."

"Nations declared"??? Why don't you come back down to Earth. KINGS declared!
Free People didn't declare if they were habituated to a preexisting system which simply continued on in perpetuity like nuclear radiation.

But we don't care about nations. We only care about Britain and the colonies that became the States of America. HOW exactly did nationality originate and where and when and by whom was it altered and diverted from its original principle?

I hope to find time to research what happened following the Norman invasion in 1066 and how that must have turned everything upside down.
It must have dramatically shifted the focus of national belong from attachment to the country itself (England) to instead a new focus on the new King (William, -Lord of both England and Normandy,-two disparate lands and peoples.

What could possibly be substituted as a basis of one's nationality in place of blood (English blood vs Norman blood)?

Well, place-of-birth within sovereign borders could serve as a stand-in for the natural factor of blood, thus uniting two distinctly different peoples.

Such a change in the basis of nationality cannot be characterized as a choice when there was no other alternative. So don't tell yourself that Britain chose place of birth after flipping some philosophical coin.

It was an inescapable necessity. Choice wasn't really involved.
In that era, blood inheritance had to be abandoned because it was what distinguished the two peoples from each other as a divisive factor.
Instead emphasis had to be placed on what they all had in common; birth within their great King's dominion. And so it no doubt began and has continued on right up to this day.

But not in regard to the Presidency. Its qualification reverts back to the original basis of national membership: blood. "Natural" connection to the nation.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "the law of nations developed a definition that a natural born member who it called a natural born citizen was a child..."

One cannot even have an adult conversation with someone who engages in such Alice in Wonderland fantasy talk.

"It"? The law of nations is an "it" that can talk and label things as it chooses?... -after it has "developed a definition"?

What planet are you living on? Who can even ask you to substantiate such fantasy when they know it is utterly impossible because it is pure make-believe?

"Being born in a country that is not the country of one’s parents will only make that the place of birth,"
OK! Now please share what country IS the country one belongs to if born abroad? If that country is not one's country, then what country is????
None?
None is your answer and it is wrong. Worse still, it is asinine.

Your nativist position is that foreigners' children born in America were nationals of their parents' nation and not naturally nor federally viewed as Americans.
And yet you take the exact opposite position when it comes to American children. 100% inconsistent and conflicted.

If foreigner-fathered children born in the U.S. were foreigners like their father, then by the very same principle, American-fathered children born in foreign lands were Americans like their fathers, and not nationals of the foreign nation where they exited the womb.

If native-born children of Europeans were Europeans like their fathers, then European-born American children were Americans just like their fathers, -automatically, naturally.

I won't beg Mario to explain the gigantic flaw in the matrix/ structure of his doctrine because it is self-evidently impossible.
But no such bump in the road will ever open his eyes to what is right in front of everyone else's face.
Mario thinks he can have it both ways, and he has... until I came along and opened the musty curtains and let in some sunlight.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "The Founders and Framers adopted these principles of the law of nations."

Declaration of Independence: "...to which the Laws of Nations and the Law of Nation's God..."

That wording expresses what is in Mario's mind, and it isn't reality.

He pretends that in the Law of Nature there is no principle of belonging, -of a means of natural inclusion and membership.
That is a delusion that he clings to because to acknowledge the truth about Nature and the natural principle of membership would undermine the sandy foundation that his doctrine is grounded on.

He pontificates that the Law of Nature and Nature's God is insufficient, and so the U.S. must follow the divergent lead of Britain by tossing in the added arbitrary artificial factor of the location of one's mother's womb at the moment of delivery.

As if one can't be a member of their own family and nation unless born within their parents' house and within their nation's borders.
What the hell is "natural" about such an added criterion as location of birth? What does it ensure? Nothing!
National loyalty can only be instilled by one's elders and one's association to their own society. That almost always happens due to where one was raised, regardless of where one was born.
Birth location is a perversely inadequate substitute for place-of-up-bringing and parental influence.
But don't tell the nativists that. It conflicts with their doctrine.

Unknown said...

Doc CONspiracy slart is on birther report saying vattels qoute translates to blood relatives haha. Now that paid liar jay carney clown is leaving doc should take over and tell us water is not wet

ajtelles said...

Whew...

Mario, h2o, aka h2ooflife, sure writes a lot of finger-wags, but where's the beef, where's the substance?

Only one example is needed to show that something is lacking in his finger-wags.

Out of all of h2o's garrulous prolix, this example is from May 31, 2014 at 2:33 AM -

>> "It"?
>>The law of nations is an "it"
>>that can talk and label things as it chooses?...
>> -after it has "developed a definition"?

Well, Mario, what is there to say after that? Jack Maskell would probably wonder the same thing if h2o wrote to him.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

Immorality...

Mario, Dr. Conspiracy is so concerned about the immorality of "birtherism" that today he titled a post "The moral dimension of birtherism" -

>> The moral dimension of birtherism
>> By Dr. Conspiracy on May 31, 2014
>> in Birthers, Jerome Corsi, Joseph Farah, Religion

>> "The reason that I have so much motivation to combat birtherism
>> is that I consider it immoral,
>> and not just immoral in and of itself,
>> but a movement that promotes immorality
>> and encourages others to act badly,
>> and not only does birtherism encourage birthers to be immoral,
>> it also entices its opponents to act badly as well."

[...]
- - - - - - - - - -

Hmmm, "... birtherism encourage[s] birthers to be immoral, ...."

Is Dr. Conspiracy asserting that the original birthers, the original Framers, the original authors of the original words of the original "birther" document of the Union, were immoral?

This shows the moral confusion of the defenders of the Obama birth narrative, the Obama-birthers, the Obirthers, the Obots doing the "thorazine shuffle" while walking down the hospital halls chanting "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama... .

Here are some questions for the morality minded Obama-birthers.

Was “original birther” John Jay an “immoral birther” when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to “original birther” George Washington?

Was “original birther” John Jay an “immoral birther” because of the obvious 1787 implicit presupposition that “born” meant ONLY born on U.S. soil only 4 years after the 1783 signing of the Treaty of Paris that ended the war for independence?

Was “original birther” John Jay an “immoral birthere” because of the concomitant 1787 implicit presupposition that “born” meant being born ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE their child is born?

Was “original birther” John Jay "truthing" or lying when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the perpetual implicit presupposition that, in 1787 and perpetually, “born” meant ONLY born on U.S. soil (& jurisdictions) and ONLY born to TWO U.S. citizen parents?

Is Dr. Conspiracy "truthing" or lying when tacitly asserting that an implicit presupposition of “natural born Citizen” is that it includes being born to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, and that is sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen," so, of course, BOTH Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. Ted Cruz are Article II eligible to be POTUS?

Which encourages a person to be moral or immoral?

A 1787 Article II “original intent” birther, or a 2008 defend the Obama birth narrative “Obama-birther” who has no regard for the original intent of Article II with the implicit meaning of ONLY being born on U.S. soil ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents?

These are simple original intent and original genesis questions. Right?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

Dr. Conspiracy must be losing his mind, arguing that we Anti-Obots are immoral for arguing, as the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained in Minor v. Happersett (1875), that a natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth.

ajtelles said...

Humor...

Mario, The People's Cube.com has a newspaper article from "Proud to be a Democrat"

>> http://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/exemplary-letter-to-the-editor-more-modern-way-of-living-t10674.html

Beaufort, N.C.
Jan. 17, 2013

TO THE EDITOR:

>> "Republicans and “so-called” conservatives are at it again. They are claiming that the Constitution gives people the right to have guns without the permission of the government. If that were true, then how could New York and Chicago have laws against it?"

[...]

>> "The Republicans are just trying to stand in the way, because the president is black.

>> They even dared to question whether he was born in this country.

>> I think all this demonstrates that the Constitution needs to be amended when it comes to the qualifications for being president.

>> Right now, it says that a person has to be 35 years old and be a natural born citizen.

>> Well, that is obviously unfair
>> because there are a great many otherwise qualified people
>> who cannot run for president
>> because their mothers had to have a C-section.
>> But because the Constitution was written a hundred years ago,
>> nobody even thought of the discrimination that would result
>> from a doctor having to deliver a baby in this unnatural way.

>> Now that we Democrats are in control of the government,
>> that’s just one more thing we should change in our drive to make life fair.

>> Please withhold my name because I don’t want to get crank calls.

>> PROUD TO BE A DEMOCRAT -


>> http://thepeoplescube.com/peoples-blog/exemplary-letter-to-the-editor-more-modern-way-of-living-t10674.html#sthash.seApVn0k.dpuf

- - - - - - - - - -

THAT is the mentality that Dr. Conspiracy is appealing to with his nonsense that the "birthers" are immoral.

Since "birther" is an excellent and honorable appellation that even original birthers George Washington and John Jay would probably endorse, it is the Obama-birthers, the Obirthers, the "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama... Obotized paid or unpaid "cadre," aka the Obots, who are wearing the dishonorable appellation of Obama-birther and Obot because they insist that John Jay was implying that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS, and they ridicule the obvious 1787 John Jay implication that by underling the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" only 4 years after the 1787 Treaty of Paris Jay was implicitly condoning ONLY birth on U.S. soil and ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE their child is born.

The humor on The People's Cube shows that the Obama-birhter theory that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent makes a person a "natural born Citizen" is for shallow thinkers, it is bogus.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Stranger, so what country does a US President have to be a natural born citizen of to be eligible? I would say (duh) the US. You are not a idiot but you are in love with your own opinion.

Unknown said...

Art,

Not to worry, I have been having a lot of fun over at yougov.com

It has been very interesting.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

Your lashing out at me is the product of your own errors, confusion, and denial. You conflate and confound a “citizen of the United States” with a “natural born citizen.” You are so mixed up about how I have defined the natural born citizens and the citizens of the United States. Let me try again to sort it out for you again.

Regarding the definition of a natural born citizen, place of birth is necessary but not sufficient. Two citizen (natural born citizen or citizen of the United States) parents are necessary but not sufficient. Therefore, place of birth and citizen parents are both sufficient and necessary conditions to be satisfied to be a natural born citizen. Thus, to be a natural born citizen, one must be born in the United States or be considered to have been born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens (natural born citizens or citizens of the United States) at the time of the child’s birth.

Regarding a citizen of the United States, place of birth is not necessary, but is (with jurisdiction) sufficient. Citizen parents are not necessary, but one or two are sufficient. Hence, one can be born in the United States to one or two alien parents and be a citizen of the United States. And one can be born out of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents and be a citizen of the United States.

So all of your blather that I do not understand that a child born to U.S. citizen parents in a foreign land is a U.S. citizen is a bunch of nonsense as most of what you write is. As I have always said, a child born out of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents, if not born out of the country due to one of the parents being a U.S. diplomat or serving in the U.S. military, is a citizen of the United States under current law, but not a natural born citizen. If that person is born out of the United States to two U.S. citizen parents due to at least one parent engaging in such service for the United States, or under circumstances which under international law establish that the child is deemed born in the United States, then that child is a natural born citizen.

You do not have anything new to support your position. To just keep repeating your old worn out self-serving personal beliefs about natural law and misstating my position on the meaning of a natural born citizen and a citizen of the United States gets you what I gave to Slartibartfast, an F.

Anonymous said...

Mario, you failed to address that gigantic flaw in the matrix of your doctrine, -the one regarding the inconsistency of foreign birth policy (foreigners on U.S. soil vs Americans on foreign soil).
I point that out with no expectation that you will address it because it is kryptonite to your nativist doctrine.

As for mischaracterizing your position on foreign-born Americans, I have never done that. But I did fail to make clear what was obvious to me, -that I was writing about natural citizenship and not LEGAL citizenship.

I wrote: "As if one can't be a member of their own family and nation unless born within their parents' house and within their nation's borders." but I should have said "a NATURAL member" instead of just "member".

You take the anti-American stance that natural national membership, like family membership, cannot follow any immutable principle of Nature, and the Americans' natural right of citizenship does not even exist.
You believe that no American has a natural right to be an American. That being a right, a sacred right, that is barred from Americans by government, and natural citizens do not exist. Only government-defined citizens.

Philosophically that is the same as asserting that natural children to not exist, -only adopted children. How can any sane person make such an argument???

Well, they can't and they don't.
They know that the sacred liberty that Americans fought and died to secure included the sacred right to pass their hard won liberty and citizenship to their children regardless of anything, including regardless of birth location.

You claim that they did not secure for themselves any such right. They just ignored it and decided to let GOVERNMENT decide for them. WHAT TOTAL GARBAGE!

I'M CALLING YOU OUT APUZZO! Explain how foreigner-father children born in America are naturally foreigners like their father and not aliens to their father's homeland, and yet American-fathered children born on foreign soil are NOT Americans like their father but are aliens to their father's country.

Please M.A. Esq., the stage is yours. Please explain the contradiction. ...waiting, ...waiting... waiting...

ajtelles said...

Straw Poll...

Mario, since there's not much that can be said in response to h2o, here is the Saturday straw poll at TheRightScoop.com -

>> http://therightscoop.com/cruz-wins-republican-leadership-conference-straw-poll-results/

>> "In the straw poll, 633 ballots were cast, which was attended by more than 1,500 people. The results were as follows:

1. Ted Cruz — 30.33 percent
2. Ben Carson — 29.38 percent
3. Rand Paul — 10.43 percent
4. Mike Huckabee — 5.06 percent
5. Rick Perry — 4.90 percent
6. Curt Clawson (write-in) 4.58 percent
7. Jeb Bush — 4.42 percent
8. Marco Rubio — 3.32 percent
9. Rick Santorum — 2.37 percent
10. Paul Ryan — 2.05 percent
11. Allen West (write-in) — 2.05 percent
12. Chris Christie — 1.11%"

- - - - - - - - -

I've been posting at TheRightScoop off and on for about 5 years, and the moderators are my friends, but some of the commentators are not so friendly when I write that Sen. Ted Cruz is not eligible to be POTUS, although their sarcasm is tame compared to the Obama-birthers on your forum.

The majority of the TheRightScoop.com denizens, maybe 90% of them, +/-, are STILL, in 2014, six years AFTER 2008, they are still NOT very informed about the original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" and Article II.

I post there when Article II related articles are posted, usually favorable to Sen. Ted Cruz.

One reason I post there is because Mark Levin gives a hat tip to TheRightScoop once in a while, so maybe he will read the comments in this straw poll and learn something about the perpetual relevance of the original intent meaning of "natural born Citizen" and how we, the American electorate, can NOT let an ineligible POTUS aspirant pursue the presidency again.

Mario, as you know, I say that about Sen. Cruz is the political sense only, since he is not only my Texas Senator, but Sen. Cruz is my FAVORITE Texas Senator.

TheRightScoop.com is very pro-original intent about Article V, but for some reason the host, Brian, and the moderators and the majority of the commenters are NOT pro-original intent about Article II.

As I mentioned today to one of the moderators. K-Bob, Article II and Article V are "original intent" inseparable.

Hopefully they will think about it.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

It really is too bad that the TheRightScoop.com gang of four does not have enough collective sense to know that a fed cow is not necessarily a grain-fed cow, for it can also be a grass-fed cow or that there is a difference between an Angus and a Brangus. Needless to say, those in presidential politics are not as smart as those in meat politics.

Unknown said...

Children of us citizens born outside of us can be citizens in the naturalisation act of 1795 but not natural born citizens like those born in us to us citizens. Children born to us military personnel outside of us are exceptions in law of nations. I hope i get a passing grade on these simple questions.Fox will never say a word about cruz, santorum,rubio, jindal and barry not being natural born citizens. Mario will be allowed to appear on a major network explaining to country what a nbc really is at about the same time i do

ajtelles said...

Compared to what...

Mario, this hit my funny-bone -

>> "... there is a difference between an Angus and a Brangus.

>> Needless to say, those in presidential politics
>> are not as smart as those in meat politics."

Mario, the comparison reminded me of the Les McCann & Eddie Harris tune "Compared to What" at the 1969 Montreux Jazz Festival.

As the poster wrote in the "About" section, it is a "Really cookin' performance and the song is still relevant."

Compared To What
Les McCann, piano, & Eddie Harris, saxophone -
>> http://youtu.be/Jv0fnSBf0Do

It is not relevant to Article II, but it is still politically relevant, and relevant to the indifference by the American electorate to original intent and first principles.

As a Christian who does not take God's name in vain or use the descriptive word "God" in a trivial manner, the language is coarse, but the lyrics are relevant and express human feelings about right and wrong... and I like the finger-snappin' beat.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

dick head said...

[...]

>> "Mario will be allowed to appear on a major network
>> explaining to country what a nbc really is
>> at about the same time i do"

June 1, 2014 at 9:33 PM

- - - - - - - - - -

Dick, I understand your intended sentiment, and I continue to post here and elsewhere about Article II because I am inspired by Mario's persistence and his consistently instructive tutorials.

One of these days, hopefully soon, one or more of the national BIG Talkers will educate themselves about the eternal relevance of the original intent of "natural born Citizen" and have Mario as a regular guest on AM national radio, similar to how Sean Hannity has a politico on to discuss the daily dirt in Washington, D.C.

It is surprising how uninformed the BIG Talkers are.

Also, why do the BIG Bloggers not insist, with an offer that he can not refuse, that Mario be a weekly contributor?

One of these days.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Presented without further comment:

Part 1


Wilted Rose
The court neglected to say that Lynch V Clarke was repealed by the New York legislature in 1859. The Political Code of the State of New York said that the children born in the state of transient aliens were not citizens.

Dr. Conspiracy
The New York legislature in 1859 defined who was a citizen of New York, not who a citizen of the United States. The Lynch decision was based an extensive historical review of the citizenship in the United States, not the narrow issue of New York. And the US Supreme Court, the final constitutional authority in this country, cited Lynch approvingly in US V. Wong.

Wilted Rose
New York's proscription of the children of aliens from citizenship also impacted their ability to be US citizens. Lynch's putative citizenship was regulated under the United States Naturalization Act of 1802 which said in part ;
"Provided also, That no person heretofore proscribed by any state, or who has been legally convicted of having joined the army Great Britain during the late war, shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid without consent of the legislature of the state in which such person was proscribed.
If a state said they couldn't be a citizen of the state, then they also could not be citizens of the United States. A child of a transient alien was sometimes not a citizen at all. If, as you say, a child of an alien born in the US was a natural born citizen, how would this be possible?

Dr. Conspiracy
New York did not bar the children of aliens from citizenship. It prohibited the NY citizenship of the children of TRANSIENT aliens. Further, the NY statute really didn't address the case of a person with an alien parent and a citizen parent.
So you really don't much help from this unconstitutional statute.

Unknown said...

Part 2

Wilted Rose
Transient aliens are still aliens, yes? The child was still born in the US, yes?
New York barred the children of transient aliens from citizenship in the state, and thereby barred them from US citizenship according to the Naturalization Act.
That provision ; " That no person heretofore proscribed by any state, ..., shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid without consent of the legislature of the state in which such person was proscribed." was in the very first Naturalization Act (of 1790), so it wasn't exactly a new idea.
Oh - California, Montana, Washington DC, and North Dakota have had that same law about the children of transient aliens on the books. If it was unconstitutional you think that at least the legislature of Washington DC would know it, huh?
Regarding "the case of a person with an alien parent and a citizen parent.", do you know much about citizenship law of the period?
A woman, when she married, took on the citizenship of the husband by law. The mother and father ordinarily had the same citizenship. I don't know what they did in the case of an illegitimate child. I think that child took the citizenship of the mother.

Dr. Conspiracy
You said: "A woman, when she married, took on the citizenship of the husband by law." Your argument is that state law governed citizenship in the United States, so where exactly in the The Political Code of State of New York in 1859 is that provision found? I didn't find it.

Wilted Rose
It was the law of the United States, not New York State Law.
"From 1790 to 1922, wives of naturalized men automatically became citizens. This also meant that an alien woman who married a U.S. citizen automatically became a citizen. (Conversely, an American woman who married an alien lost her U.S. citizenship, even if she never left the United States.) From 1790 to 1940, children under the age of 21 automatically became naturalized citizens upon the naturalization of their father." From the National Archives - Home > Research Our Records > Naturalization > Naturalization Records

Dr. Conspiracy
So you are retracting your claim that citizenship was defined by the states?

Wilted Rose
Citizenship was defined by the states only insofar the United States government gave them that power. The US Naturalization Law said that "That no person heretofore proscribed by any state ... shall be admitted a citizen..."
If a person was not allowed to be a citizen of a state then they could not be a citizen of the United States, per US Law.

Dr. Conspiracy
Have you read the CRS report yet? It explains all this stuff.

Unknown said...

Mario,

The English statutes regarding the children of aliens ...

"To place the Children, born within this Realm, of foreign Parents, in Degree for the first Birth or Descent only, as Aliens made Denizens, and not otherwise." (1604)
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=8318#sec1363

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

Dr. Conspiracy said about the horribly decided New York state case of Lynch:

“New York did not bar the children of aliens from citizenship. It prohibited the NY citizenship of the children of TRANSIENT aliens. Further, the NY statute really didn't address the case of a person with an alien parent and a citizen parent.
So you really don't much help from this unconstitutional statute.”

-----

Dr. Conspiracy has it backward. The law as it exists in the word of our U.S. Supreme Court is that two citizen parents, along with the child being born in the United States to those parents, is required to make a natural born citizen. See Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). What these two Courts stated and established is the current state of our constitutional law on the definition of a natural born citizen. Hence, if Dr. Conspiracy does not like that rule, he has to get the U.S. Supreme Court to change it or have a constitutional amendment do so.

Dr. Conspiracy and his Obot partners lobbied to have the U.S. Supreme Court deny our petitions for a writ of certiorari in both the Charles J. Kerchner, Jr. v. Obama and Congress, and H. Brooke Paige v. Obama and State of Vermont cases. They are scared at what the high Court would do so they rather just leave things the way some lower courts erroneously decided this issue.

The Obots are all talk but no action. Hence, they have to accept the word of the U.S. Supreme Court as it stands, which trumps that of any lower court. Under what our U.S. Supreme Court has so far decided about the meaning of a natural born citizen, Barack Obama, like Chester Arthur, not being born in the United States to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of their birth, go down in history as constitutionally illegitimate presidents of the United States.

Unknown said...

Mario,

I am confused.

PART II—NATIONALITY THROUGH NATURALIZATION
§ 1431. Children born outside the United States and residing permanently in the United
States; conditions under which citizenship automatically acquired.
AMENDMENTS
2000—Pub. L. 106–395 amended section catchline and text generally. Prior to amendment, text read as follows: ‘‘(a) A child born outside of the United States, one of whose parents at the time of the child’s birth was an alien and the other of whose parents then was and
never thereafter ceased to be a citizen of the United States, shall, if such alien parent is naturalized, become a citizen of the United States, when—
‘‘(1) such naturalization takes place while such child is unmarried and under the age of eighteen years; and
‘‘(2) such child is residing in the United States pursuant to a lawful admission for permanent residence at the time of naturalization or thereafter and begins to reside permanently in the United States while under the age of eighteen years.
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title8/pdf/USCODE-2011-title8-chap12-subchapIII-partII.pdf

Translation:
Before the year 2000, An american citizen and a foreign citizen had a child in a foreign country. That child would NOT be a citizen of the US unless the foreign parent and the child came to the US legally and the foreign parent naturalized before the child turned 18. It was derivative naturalization and both parents had to be citizens.

Am I reading this right?
I thought the provision was that the citizen parent had to reside in the US for a specified amount of time, and the child was naturalized at birth (citizen at birth).

What makes the provisions different?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

I of II

Dr. Conspiracy said:

“The New York legislature in 1859 defined who was a citizen of New York, not who a citizen of the United States. The Lynch decision was based an extensive historical review of the citizenship in the United States, not the narrow issue of New York. And the US Supreme Court, the final constitutional authority in this country, cited Lynch approvingly in US V. Wong.”

-----

Julia Lynch was born in New York in 1819 to alien parents during their temporary sojourn in New York City. She returned with them to Ireland the same year and never came back to America. The common law in New York at that time was that aliens could not inherit land in New York. Hence, if Julia was an alien she could not inherit any such land. If she was a citizen, she could.

The court issued its ruling in 1844. The court's statement about Lynch being eligible to be President is super dicta. Can you imagine a case about whether somebody who only lived in the U.S. less than one year of the first year of her life can inherit a piece of property in New York and then the court goes on to say without any analysis that someone in her situation, satisfying the age and residency requirement, was eligible to be President of the United States. We can only imagine what was going on politically for the court to make such an outlandish statement.

In 1860, the New York legislature surely did not agree with Lynch when it passed a citizenship law as follows:

Political Code of the State of New York (1860)

Sec. 5. The citizens of the state are:

1. All persons born in this state and domiciled within it, except the children of transient aliens and of alien public ministers and consuls;

2 All persons born out of this state who are citizens of the United States and domiciled within this state.

Lynch’s parents were “transient aliens.” Hence, under this statute, Lynch would not have been a citizen of New York. If the children of transient aliens were not even considered citizens of New York, they surely would not have been considered natural born citizens.

So as to escape what the New York legislature did in 1860, which is basically to say that the court in Lynch was wrong, Dr. Conspiracy argues that the New York legislature in 1859 defined a citizen of New York, not a citizen of the United States. So he implies that the state court defined a citizen of the United States. But Dr. Conspiracy does not have the same criticism of the state court, i.e., being a state institution faced only with an issue of whether Lynch was a citizen of New York, it had no business defining who a citizen of the United States was, let alone an Article II “natural born citizen. Hence, rather than congratulate the court for not deciding “the narrow issue of New York [citizenship],” he should be telling us that the court had no business decided federal issues such as who were the citizens of the United States and the natural born citizens.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Second, Dr. Conspiracy misrepresents what citizenship Lynch examined. It did not conduct an extensive historical review of national citizenship. Rather, what it did was review the laws of various states which defined state citizenship. It then made a quantum leap of logic and concluded that since that was the state law in those various states, that must have been the national common law. This argument and conclusion is wrong. Briefly, state common law did not make national common law. The two were completely different. State common law, which was usually the carried-over English common law, was different in each state. So many different laws could not all be considered the national common law. The court was simply wrong to draw such a conclusion from state common law. Additionally, the court said that such common law would not apply on the federal level if Congress had adopted a statute which abrogated it. But Congress did just that in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, and 1802. Despite the clear text of those laws and great Founder and legal scholar Nathan Dane telling the court through his A General Abridgement and Digest of American Law (1824) how to read those statutes (Dane explained that children born in the United State to alien parents were aliens because they followed the condition of their parents), the court simply refused to follow those contemporaneous authorities.

Third, Dr. Conspiracy gives lip service to the U.S. Supreme Court being “the final constitutional authority in this country.” He does so now because Wong Kim Ark cited Lynch. But then he ignores the fact that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor explained what a citizen and natural born citizen were at common law (it said that a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens were citizens like their parents and also natives or natural born citizens), which explanation overturned Lynch’s ruling that Lynch was a citizen of the United States and dicta that she was also a natural born citizen.

So, as we can see, Dr. Conspiracy’s arguments are all meritless and not worthy of any support. The only place where he can win his arguments is on his blog where his Obot fan club religiously supports him no matter what erroneous statements he may make or what topic he may choose to write about.

Anonymous said...

Kevin Davidson wrote: "New York did not bar the children of aliens from citizenship. It prohibited the NY citizenship of the children of TRANSIENT aliens. Further, the NY statute really didn't address the case of a person with an alien parent and a citizen parent."

As to the latter, nationality passed from the head of the family. The wife and children were naturally of the same nationality as the husband, the head, and father.

If he was an American, then so was his family. If he was foreign, then so was his family, -although not by actual statute until Britain (first) and later the U.S. passed laws stating that a citizen that married a foreigner would lose her citizenship and adopt his. (US Nationality Act of 1907, -the British law came about 4 decades earlier).

As to the former, transients, by international law and the law of nations, were not subject to American jurisdiction, but to their own nations authority over them as subjects or citizens. As such the 14th Amendment, as written, and extrapolated, clearly implies that Obama Sr. was subject to British jurisdiction and not American.

There was no national policy of viewing foreigners as being subject to a government foreign to them (the U.S.) while visiting as tourists or guests. So since Obama Sr. was a foreign transient, his son was also, taking his nationality from his father only (by American law) and was therefore not born with U.S. citizenship nor as an American National. He was a British National only.

Kevin wrote: "The New York legislature in 1859 defined who was a citizen of New York, not who a citizen of the United States."

That's almost laughable. The United States did not define who was a citizen of the united States, you bonehead. 1859 pre-dated the 14th Amendment and Civil Rights Act. All American citizens were either State Citizens (98% by birth plus those by naturalization or derivation) or were federal citizens born within the federal district or born on federal land.

So New York DID define whether or not persons were citizens of the U.S. since if they were under State sovereignty and were not State citizens then they could not be U.S. citizens by extension. That is how the federal union worked.

As for the 1802 Nat. Act, it refers to "person" -not "persons" (plural), so it was written in regard to individuals not an entire class of individuals. Many, most, or all States continued to recognize jus soli common law citizenship for the alien-born of immigrants (not transients). Do NOT confuse the two.
a.r.nash

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose, the answer to your question about automatic naturalization when born abroad with an alien parent, is, I believe, to be found in the context of legitimacy.
The statute you quoted does not mention matrimony, -which is a key ingredient in ascribing nationality.
One can assume that it referred to birth outside of wedlock. An illegitimate birth. If such a child is legitimized by marriage, then the provisions of that statute do not apply. Such a child is deemed to inherit that nationality of its American parent regardless of any other factor.

Unknown said...

Mario,

I am curious about this statement that you made:

"Dr. Conspiracy and his Obot partners lobbied to have the U.S. Supreme Court deny our petitions for a writ of certiorari in both the Charles J. Kerchner, Jr. v. Obama and Congress, and H. Brooke Paige v. Obama and State of Vermont cases. "

Are you really suggesting that the Obots somehow persuaded SCOTUS not to hear those cases? By what means would they have accomplished that? Do you have any evidence, or are you just speculating.

Sorry, but that seems like a stretch.

-David

Unknown said...

"h2ooflife said...

Wilted Rose, the answer to your question about automatic naturalization when born abroad with an alien parent, is, I believe, to be found in the context of legitimacy.
The statute you quoted does not mention matrimony, -which is a key ingredient in ascribing nationality.
One can assume that it referred to birth outside of wedlock. An illegitimate birth. If such a child is legitimized by marriage, then the provisions of that statute do not apply. Such a child is deemed to inherit that nationality of its American parent regardless of any other factor."

While that may be a theory, it isn't supported by the reading of the other statutes in Title 8 Chapter 12.
None of the statutes specify that the parents are married. There are only extra provisions made if the child is born out of wedlock.

The assumption appears to be that the parents are married.
See section 1409 - that addresses out of wedlock children.

I don't think that's it.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "and then the court goes on to say without any analysis that someone in her situation, ...was eligible to be President of the United States. We can only imagine what was going on politically for the court to make such an outlandish statement."

What was going on was a war for the heart of what defined America. One side was pro-immigrant and pro-British common law to the maximum. The other side was pro-American and pro-Natural Law and Natural Rights, (-the very basis of the American Revolution).

The neo-loyalists, indoctrinated in British law, sought to re-impose the full breadth of its common law in regard to children of aliens. Under it, they were equal and even called "natural-born subjects", but worse still, even the off-spring of transient foreigners were deemed to be British subjects also, simply by adhering to the rule that anyone born within the realm was a natural-born subject of the King. No questions asked nor thought given.

As seen by the New York law of 1860, that corrupt system had been overthrown and abandoned, with membership by descent replacing it.

The difference between British and American nationality policy was seen in the fact that Washington DC viewed native-born alien-fathered children as subject to their foreign father's nation, (of which they were subjects) while the British saw such children as subject to the British King's jurisdiction and not the monarch of the father's homeland.

The neo-loyalists had one over-riding objective, and that was that native-born alien-fathered children be considered eligible to be President (promoting egalitarian equality and inclusiveness, with the abandonment of national security exclusion of those with alienage).

They sought what Obama's supporters seek; to legitimize the alien-born as being natural citizens based solely on birth place. Native = Natural.

A demographic shift took place in Congress between 1790 and 1795. The founder's Congress (the 1st) identified foreign-born American children as natural born citizens, but that citizenship-by-descent designation meant that jus soli citizens therefore were NOT natural born citizens.

The pro-immigrant community could not accept that their sons were thus barred from being President, and hence the language was rendered ambiguous in 1795.

Slartibartfast said...

David,

That's right, us Obots are so powerful that we can tell the SCOTUS what cases they should take and which they should deny. Seriously, if I could tell the SCOTUS what to do, I'll get them to take Mario's case and tear his arguments to shreds (just like every judge who has addressed birther legal theories).

Let's look at the possibilities and what they mean...

1. Obots influenced the SCOTUS to deny cert in Mario's case---if we have this much power, then all of the birthers better be keeping an eye out for black helicopters coming to rendition them to FEMA camps. It's only a matter of time...

2. The SCOTUS felt that the case properly addressed the issue of defining "natural born citizen", but that it wasn't necessary to hear the case---if this is true, then Mario's theories are a lost cause since this would mean that the SCOTUS sees the current interpretation (i.e. the one advanced in the CRS report by Jack Maskell) as correct and any review as unnecessary.

3. The SCOTUS did not feel that the case reflected a Constitutional issue---in other words, there was no violation of the US Constitution when the Vermont Supreme Court ruled the case moot, so the SCOTUS didn't have any jurisdiction over the case. Which means that Mario is a fool who doesn't understand how the Judicial Branch works. (This is the option that I would bet is true, by the way.)

Since none of you are in shackles and Clockwork Orange-type eye restraints watching Obama campaign speeches, I think we can rule #1 out. I don't think that any of the birther lawyers are competent enough to write a brief that would properly put the issue before the court (certainly Mario didn't), so #2 is highly unlikely as well. I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions from there...

Wilted Rose,

I have to admit, your argument against my use of the Chinese Exclusion Act was cogent and seems valid. I wont be using that argument any more. However, that just denied me a shortcut---it didn't really hurt my overall case.

Here are four questions about Wong Kim Ark for you:

1. Can someone be "as much as citizen" as someone else if they are denied privileges of citizenship that the other person has?

2. If a naturalized citizen is a citizen by operation of the same principle as a natural born citizen, what is this principle and why does it make one person naturalized and one person natural born?

3. Why did the state argue that affirming Mr. Wong's citizenship would make him eligible for the presidency? Why did no one object to this argument?

4. Why did the dissent complain about "Mongolians" being eligible for the presidency if the holding in Wong Kim Ark didn't make Mr. Wong a natural born citizen?

Good luck trying to find answers that don't imply Mr. Wong was natural born or make you look foolish.

Art,

The problem with your questions is that they are all of the form "when did you stop beating your wife?" with followups of the form "so you haven't stopped beating your wife?" Loading your questions with preconceptions that are all either disputed or outright false is dishonest.

Mario, Art, and Adrien,

I see that all three of you are so scared of my arguments that you will not accurately represent my positions. I understand that you are unable to refute my actual arguments, but you aren't fooling anyone (well... maybe your fellow birthers, but they aren't exactly the wisest people around). My favorite in your latest batch of replies was Adrien restating my position and then asking me why I didn't share it. Minus five for honesty, but 10 out of 10 for chutzpah.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "~state common law did not make national common law. The two were completely different. State common law, which was usually the carried-over English common law, was different in each state. So many different laws could not all be considered the national common law."

That could be true but could also be incorrect. Without a literal comparison of the Constitutions of all of the States, one cannot claim that they were all different just because the States were different.
They all had a century or so of common law nationality assignment as their multi-generational tradition. Thus it is far more likely that they all had more in common than in divergence.

Perhaps when their State constitutions were written, only a few, or none, adopted the sort of citizenship statute as New York did in 1860. The few that I've read didn't elucidate any principle; just circumstantial considerations.

Thus it is wrong to conclude (without evidence) that there were a lot of different State citizenship laws. If that is false, then there could have been what would logically be described as a nation-wide (national) common law inherited from colonial tradition.

Assuming that possibility, a judge would have in his discretion the power to choose just how much of that pro-monarch common law would be deemed to be American; All? or just some?
Many choose all, -embracing the bastardization of "natural-born subject" to mean everyone, and thus rejected fundamental American principles of Natural Rights and national membership by blood, -by patrilineal descent.

Such a judicial choice was diametrically opposed to the U.S. federal policy of: ONE country, one citizenship, one allegiance, one government, and only one fundamental system of Rights (Natural vs Government granted).

In 1919, Theodore Roosevelt penned these words:

There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag. We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”

We should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American.

ajtelles said...

what questions...

1/2

S..., aka Slartibartfast, on June 3, 2014 at 4:05 AM finger-wagged, again -


>> "Art,
>> The problem with your questions is that they are all of the form "when did you stop beating your wife?"
>> with followups of the form "so you haven't stopped beating your wife?"

>> Loading your questions with preconceptions that are all either disputed or outright false is dishonest."


- - - - - - - - -

S..., you write "the problem with your questions is...."

S..., I have asked you many questions in the past few months, but you NEVER respond to a question, other than to dissemble with a finger-wag.

S..., what question are you referring to? A copy and paste of every question will not be necessary, one specific question will do.

S..., loading your finger-wags with nebulous misconceptions is "dishonest."

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., are you referring to the last series of questions posted on May 29, 2014 at 6:36 PM, that started with "dittos"?

S..., dittos to “... became citizens” and also "... at birth."

S..., it looks like you agree with John Jay that "born" means BOTH born on U.S. soil AND born to TWO U.S. citizens. Right?

S..., it looks like you agree with John Jay that, just as birth can only result from the union of two persons, so also citizenship can only result from the two parents. Right?

S..., if one parent has U.S. citizenship and one parent has foreign citizenship, then the child is ALSO [“only”] a “citizen” with dual citizenship. Right?

S..., if BOTH parents have ONLY U.S. citizenship, then their child also has ONLY U.S. citizenship. Right?

S..., which child is a “natural born Citizen” and eligible to the Office of President?

S..., is it the child with dual citizenship or is it the child with single citizenship?

S..., when John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit presupposition that it meant ONLY born on U.S. soil with the concomitant [implicit] presupposition of born to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, are you and Obama-birthers "truthing" or lying when asserting that John Jay was ALSO implicitly presupposing that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS?

S..., was John Jay "truthing" or lying when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the perpetual implicit presupposition that, in 1787 and perpetually, “born” meant ONLY born on U.S. soil (& jurisdictions) and ONLY born to TWO U.S. citizen parents?

ajtelles said...

what questions...

2/2

The issue is simple.

_Are the two parents citizens with different citizenships, U.S. and foreign?
_Are the two parents citizens with the same citizenship, both U.S.?

If the two parents are citizens with different citizenships, the child has dual citizenship. Right?
If the two parents are citizens with the same citizenship, the child has single citizenship. Right?

If two persons unite in marriage and one parent is a U.S. citizen and one parent is a foreign citizen, their child is a U.S. citizen AND a foreign citizen—dual citizenship. Right?

If two persons unite in marriage and BOTH parents are U.S. citizens, their child is a U.S. citizen—single citizenship. Right?

_Dual citizenship = U.S. "citizen" (Acts of Congress and Amendments since 1790—perpetual). Right?
_Single citizenship = U.S. "natural born Citizen" (since September 17, 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5—perpetual). Right?

The children can ONLY be what the parents are, in "original genesis birth" AND in "original genesis citizenship." Right?

_One child from two parents.
_One dual citizenship "citizen" child from one U.S. citizen parent and one foreign citizen parent.
_One single citizenship "natural born Citizen" child from two U.S. parents with the same U.S. citizenship.

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., are you referring to another question about your "obot position" comment which I quoted April 4, 2014 at 1:49 AM -

>> "and the obot position is that
>> "either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> "is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both."


S..., my question at that time was -

>> "... are you absolutely sure that the "theory" of "either ... OR ... not both" expresses the 1787 original intent of John Jay in his suggestion to George Washington that, to add a buffer to protect control of the executive office and control of the military from FOREIGN influence, access to the presidency should include a higher and more difficult hurdle to contend with than a simple ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?"

S..., these are simple original intent and original genesis questions. Right?

S..., you still have not responded with a clarification about your "obot postiton" definition, that you posted here

_on April 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM, and
to which I responded
_on April 3, 2014 at 11:38 PM, and
_on April 4, 2014 at 1:49 AM, and
_on April 6, 2014 at 10:08 PM, and
_on May 19, 2014 at 12:02 AM.

_ and today, June 2, 2014 at about 11:45 am.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Kevin Davidson said...

I don't think it is quite accurate to say> "In 1860, the New York legislature surely did not agree with Lynch."

Actually, there is rather close agreement. Justice Sandford wrote in Lynch, citing Justice Storey: Continental writers upon public law say "that certin principles (relative to national domicil) have been generally recognized by tribunals administering the public law or the law of nations, as of unquestionable authority. First, Persons who are born in a country, are generally deemed to be citizens and subjects of that country. A reasonable qualification of the rule would seem to be, that it should not apply to children of pareents, who were in itinere in the country, or who were abiding there for temporary purposes, as for health, or curiosity, or occasional business." Sandford then goes on to note that such a principle was not generally recognized in current law.

The New York did not disagree with the Lynch decision, but rather endeavored to change existing law.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

KevinDavidson/aka Dr. Conspiracy,

Since you and the Obots are trapped in a losing position, your efforts to escape that trap are always riddled with contradiction and inconsistency. Here we see it again. You maintain that the New York legislature in 1860 abrogated the English common law as it may have applied to making state citizens in New York when it defined by statute who were New York state citizens in 1860, but you deny that Congress abrogated the English common law as it may have applied to making state citizens in general in the states when it defined also by statute who were the “citizens” of the United States in 1790 and thereafter.

You also fail to address that Lynch had no legal authority to take as it did the English common law which may have defined state citizenship and declare without a shred of evidence that that law became our national common law that defined both our national “citizens” and “natural born citizens,” a position which also forced the court to deny what Congress’s early naturalization acts clearly demonstrated, i.e., that children born in the United States to alien parents were alien born and in need of naturalization after birth, a contemporaneous Congressional expression which not only proves that Lynch committed serious legal error, but also destroys Jack Maskell’s and the Obots’ theory that the Framers accepted children born in the United States to alien parents as natural born citizen.

So, Kevin Davidson/Dr. Conspiracy, other than calling me immoral and a liar, what have you to say that has any historical and legal support about the meaning of an Article II “natural born citizen?”

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast,

You asked:
1. Can someone be "as much as citizen" as someone else if they are denied privileges of citizenship that the other person has?

Knauer v. United States.1163 “Citizenship obtained through naturalization is not a second–class citizenship. . . . [It] carries with it the privilege of full participation in the affairs of our society, including the right to speak freely, to criticize officials and administrators, and to promote changes in our laws including the very Charter of our Government.”

Schneider v. Rusk “We start,” Justice Douglas wrote for the Court, “from the premise that the rights of citizenship of the native–born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the ‘natural born’ citizen is eligible to be President.”

A right or privilege of citizenship is an action that can be performed, or protection that can be had at any time without qualification. Take a look at the Bill of Rights. (not to say that any of those rights have not been violated, but a person doesn't have to be, say, left-handed in order to enjoy any of those rights.)
Qualification is the key.
A person who has only been a naturalized citizen for two years cannot serve in congress because they do not meet the qualification, even though that person is a citizen.
A thirty year old cannot serve as president because they do not meet the qualification, even though that person is a citizen.
Eligibility to the presidency is not a right or a privilege of citizenship.
Eligibility to the Senate or House of Representatives is not a right or privilege of citizenship.
Voting is not a right or privilege of citizenship because a person must be qualified to vote in the district in which they are trying to vote (registration).
Qualification.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast,

Part 1

You asked:
2. If a naturalized citizen is a citizen by operation of the same principle as a natural born citizen, what is this principle and why does it make one person naturalized and one person natural born?

As cited in Wong Kim Ark - "The right of citizenship never descends in the legal sense, either by the common law or under the common naturalization acts. It is incident to birth in the country, or it is given personally by statute. The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle."
The Alienigenæ of the United States Under the Present Naturalization Laws By Horace Binney
http://books.google.com/books?id=7y4wAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA22&dq=%22an+alien,+if+born+%22+Binney&hl=en&sa=X&ei=-zKOU-fiKe2n8QHYxIHgBg&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22an%20alien%2C%20if%20born%20%22%20Binney&f=false
The principle is birth in the country. In Binney's opinion, the natural born child of a citizen is a citizen because they are born in the country. Being the child of a citizen (keeping in mind that the citizenship of the husband and wife were the same by law until 1922) was additionally necessary to be considered natural born. If you subscribe to the idea that there are only natural born citizens and naturalized citizens, then if one is not natural born by the previously given criteria, then one has to be naturalized.

Binney cited Lord Coke's report on Calvin's case in his paper;
"Every subject is either natus, born, or datus, given or made." 7 Rep 17 a
"There be regularly, unless it be in special cases, three incidents to a subject born. 1st, That the parents be under the actual obedience of the King. 2nd, That the place of his birth be within the King's dominion. And 3rd, The time of his birth is chiefly to be considered, for he cannot be a subject born of one kingdom, that was born under the allegiance of another kingdom, albeit afterwards one kingdom descend to the king of the other." 7 Rep 18 a

Being under the "actual obedience of the King" did not include aliens living in amity in the realm, because their allegiance (ligeantia localis, wrought by the law) was considered local and temporary, not complete and perpetual as in the case of Subjects of the king.

Unknown said...

Part 2
for question 2

In Coke's report on Calvin's case ;
"2. There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances; the first is, ligeantia naturalis, absoluta pura, et indefinite, and this originally is due by nature and birth-right, and is called alta ligeantia, and he that oweth this is called subditus natus. The second is called ligeantia acquisita, not by nature but by acquisition or denization, being called a denizen, or rather donaizon, because he is subditus datus. The third is, ligeantia localis, wrought by the law; and that is when an alien that is in amity cometh into England, because as long as he is within England, he is within the King's protection; therefore so long as he is here, he oweth unto the King a local obedience or ligeance, for that the one (as it hath been said) draweth the other. The fourth is a legal obedience, or ligeance which is called legal, because the municipal laws of this realm have prescribed the order and form of it; and this to be done upon oath at the torn of the leet."
http://books.google.com/books?id=AdcsAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA10&dq=coke+calvin%27s+case+ligeantia+naturalis&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GQaOU8eVH8uPyATEyILwAg&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=ligeantia%20naturalis&f=false

Binney continues;
" But the common law principle of allegiance, was the law of all the States at the time of the Revolution, and at the adoption of the Constitution; and by that principle the citizens of the United States are, with the exceptions before mentioned, such only as are either born or made so, born within the limits and under the jurisdiction of the United States, or naturalized by the authority of law, either in one of the States before the Constitution, or since that time, by virtue of an Act of the Congress of the United States."

Since Binney quoted from Coke's report on Calvin's case, we know that he was familiar with it, and was familiar with the nomenclature "natural born subject". He understood that "natural born subject" was a generic term for the subjects of the King, however they became subjects, whether they were born subjects (Common Law) or made subjects (statutory or by individual Acts of Parliament). "Natural born subject" in England was roughly equivalent to "Citizen" in the US.
He demonstrated that he knew the difference between natural born subject and natural born citizen by saying: "The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle." A natural born "Citizen" was the child of citizens.
Both of the aforementioned children were citizens, in his estimation, because both were born in the country. Only one was natural born - by being the child of citizens.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

If everyone was a "natural born subject" then the only possible distinction between them was whether they acquired that character at birth or later in life. Also, I would point out that the completion of the quote that I gave is clear that, by the common law (and therefore under the Constitution as originally written), citizenship never passed from parent to child ("descended").

Art,

All of your questions are worded to imply egregiously incorrect assumptions which are intended to falsify any answer except the "correct" one (i.e. the one you believe). In my experience, this type of construction is typical of people who believe they are more intelligent and clever than they truly are. If you really wanted an honest debate, you would first determine what my arguments were (so as to avoid the sort of misrepresentations that are rife here) and then attack them on their merits. This is exactly what pretty much every obot posting on this thread has done. It is made more difficult as Mario (and to a lesser extent the rest of you) intentionally obfuscates his arguments to make it more difficult to see the logical fallacies therein.

Something you should consider about original intent---it didn't end with the Founders. We must also consider the intent of the writers of each of the Amendments (since they are also part of the Constitution). Thus your arguments once more come back to bite you in the ass, since the discussions regarding the 14th Amendment make it clear that it only codifies the law under the Constitution as originally written and any birther legal theory requires the 14th to have created a new class of citizens.

Mario,

I have no doubt that you will vomit forth several hundred words and call it a great victory. Accepting your unquestionable proclamation, I believe that Obots should start using the term "Apuzzo" for such triumphs.

For instance: Saddam Hussein's Apuzzo in the First Gulf War was only exceeded by that in the second.

or

Osama Bin Laden's Apuzzo at the hands of President Obama and Seal Team Six proved to be a defining moment in his life.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Do you really think that people are so stupid that they would associate little weasels* like you and other failed Obots with the success of the Gulf Wars and the Osama bin Laden operation?

Additionally, if your mind does not have the mental capacity to handle more than 140 characters of discussion, may I suggest to you that you stick to twitter as your learning platform.

*”Weasels lack the emotional and spiritual maturity found in the larger carnivores. . . . They share the same ambitious streak as their cousin the beaver, but their distaste for hard work has them behaving more like their skunk relatives who also resort to chicanery. . . . Natural liars, their earnest persuasions make it difficult to discern their true motives. They have no internal moral struggle with their behavior, since they believe that the end justifies the means. Their talent for manipulation makes weasels natural politicians.” http://animalinyou.com/weasel .

Unknown said...

Rant of the day:
Here's a good reason to always check the assumptions of "Authorities"

"The provision for “natural born Citizen” probably was aimed at immigrants, although the term is so unusual as to be vague.... but it had deep roots in British common law. In medieval times it had embodied the doctrine of jus soli: a natural born citizen was one born within the realm (on the soil, so to speak ). But with increased commerce and travel, Parliament, starting in 1350, seemed to expand the definition of natural born to incorporate the doctrine of jus sanguinis. Now babies born of British citizens abroad or at sea were included as well. One can presume only that Jay and the delegates meant to apply the evolved, broader common law meaning of the term when they included it in the presidential qualifications clause. Certainly Jay did not mean to bar his own children born in Spain and France while he was on diplomatic assignments, from legal eligibility to the presidency."
Michael Nelson, Constitutional Qualifications for President, PRESIDENTIAL STUDIES QUARTERLY , Vol. XVII, No. 2, at 396 (Winter 1987), citing Gordon, Who Can Be President?
Quoted in Maskell's Qualifications for President and the “Natural Born” Citizenship Eligibility Requirement.

This "authority" had no clue what British Common Law was and is. Statutes that effect Common Law principles are EXCEPTIONS to the Common Law. They do not change the Common Law.
The notion that Jay must have "meant to apply the evolved, broader common law meaning of the term when they included it in the presidential qualifications clause" because it would have disqualified his own children is ludicrous. Jay's children were born in Spain and France while he was acting as Ambassador or Minister to those countries. English Common Law specifically states “If one of the King’s Ambassadors in a foreign Country, hath issue there by his Wife, being an English Woman, by the Common Law they are natural born Subjects.”
Additionally, this "Authority" had no clue that applying the "evolved, broader " meaning of "natural born subject" would have meant that people naturalized at birth and people naturalized in maturity would also have qualified as president. All of them were called natural born subjects, naturalized or not.

Rant over.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

The quality of our nation’s law and political science professors' research and writing on the question of what is a natural born citizen is really at the bottom of the barrel.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast,

If everyone was a "natural born subject" then the only possible distinction between them was whether they were born with that character (the Common Law definition) or if they acquired it by by Act of Parliament (that includes statutes). If a person had natural born subject status by an act of Parliamentary Law, they were not Common Law natural born subjects.
*Acquisition* of subject status is called naturalization.

I didn't say that citizenship descended from parent to child. You are making an assumption. I'm talking about the Common Law Definition of Natural Born Subject, which is: born in the realm of subject parents, to keep it short. If you want the long version, look at one of my previous posts.

"...discussions regarding the 14th Amendment make it clear that it only codifies the law under the Constitution as originally written."

From Wong Kim Ark:
"Doubtless, the intention of the Congress which framed and of the States which adopted this Amendment of the Constitution must be sought in the words of the Amendment, and the debates in Congress are not admissible as evidence to control the meaning of those words."

If you don't buy that (and I don't) here are some quotes from the debates.

Mr. TRUMBULL. ... The provision is, that "all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens." That means "subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof."
... What do we mean by "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States?" Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means. (Congressional Globe, Senate, 39th Congress, 1st Session, p.2893)

Mr. HOWARD: ... I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word "jurisdiction," as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, coextensive in all respects with the constitutional power of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department...(Congressional Globe, Senate, 39th Congress, 1st Session, p.2895)

The major provision of the 14th amendment was to grant citizenship to “All persons born or naturalized in the United States",thereby granting citizenship to former slaves. It acted as a collective naturalization of all persons born in the United States who were under the exclusive jurisdiction of the US, who weren't otherwise citizens.

Unknown said...

Huh ...

"Every subject is either natus, born, or datus, given or made ..."

Maybe THAT is why John Jay underlined "born".

Hmmmm.




John Jay: Colonial Lawyer
By Herbert A. Johnson
"Although the Chambers legacy of law books was probably not as substantial as appearances would indicate, the books received by Jay formed a solid basis upon which to build a good library. Jay's share included all of Sir Edward Coke's Reports, Peere William's Reports, and the reports of Keilway and Kelyng. ... Young Jay was extremely fortunate in having these sources in his library at the very outset of his professional career." Page 114


Well, he definitely owned the books.

ajtelles said...

waiting...

1/3

S..., aka Slartibartfast, on June 3, 2014 at 9:11 PM, finger-wagged, again, and did NOT answer a simple question, again, that was asked, again, on June 3, 2014 at 1:47 PM.

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., what is your answer to the question about your "obot position" comment which I quoted April 4, 2014 at 1:49 AM -

>> "and the obot position is that
>> "either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> "is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both."


S..., at that time I asked you this -

>> "... are you absolutely sure that the "theory" of "either ... OR ... not both"
>> expresses the 1787 original intent of John Jay
>> in his suggestion to George Washington that,
>> to add a buffer to protect control of the executive office
>> and control of the military from FOREIGN influence,
>> access to the presidency should include
>> a higher and more difficult hurdle [of TWO (2) U.S. Citizen parents]
>> to contend with
>> than a simple ONLY ONE (1) U.S. citizen parent?"

S..., these are simple original intent and original genesis questions. Right?

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., you wrote,

>> "Art,

[...]

>> Something you should consider about original intent---it didn't end with the Founders.

>> We must also consider the intent of the writers of each of the Amendments (since they are also part of the Constitution).

>> Thus your arguments once more come back to bite you in the ass, since the discussions regarding the 14th Amendment make it clear that it only codifies the law under the Constitution as originally written and any birther legal theory requires the 14th to have created a new class of citizens."

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., not all of the Founders were also Framers of the words of the constitution adopted on September 17, 1787.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framers_of_the_Constitution

S..., you probably already knew that, but for your Obama-birther paid or unpaid "cadre" cohort who are simply following marching orders and who are not as informed as Prof. Bob Natelson, here is a brief look in his book that the Obirthers like because he equates "natural born Citizen" with "natural-born Subject." Natelson explains in The Original Constitution, What it Actually Said and Meant, the differences between a Founder, a Framer and a Ratifier.

This is on page 10, Framers, Ratifiers, Federalists, Anti-Federalists, and Founders---The Words Defined.

"This book refers frequently to the view, goals, methods, and comments of the people who wrote, debated, and adopted the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The Framers were the fifty-five men who drafted the Constitution at the federal convention in Philadelphia, between May 25 and September 17, 1787. The Ratifiers were the 1,648 delegates at the thirteen state ratifying conventions meeting from late 1787 through May 29, 1790.

"The Federalists were participants in the public ratification debates who argued for adopting the Constitution. History has labeled (unfairly) their opponents as Anti-Federalists. The Founders comprised all who played significant roles in the constitutional process, whether they were Framers, Ratifiers, Federalists, or Anti-Federalists. Although the Framers and Ratifiers were all male, the Founders were not. Women such as Mercy Otis Warren, an important Anti-Federalist writer (and later a leading historian), helped to shape public opinion about the Constitution.

ajtelles said...

waiting...

2/3

"Also among the Founders were the members of the Confederation Congress (1781-89) and its leading officers, as well as the members of the initial session of the First Federal Congress (1789). That session drafted the Bill of Rights and debated and resolved several constitutional issues while North Carolina and Rhode Island were still weighing whether to join the union, and while Virginia and New York were petitioning for a convention for proposing amendments.

"Many founders fit into more than one category. For example, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton were Framers, Ratifiers, leading Federalists. John Jay, who served the Confederation as Secretary for Foreign Affairs, did not attend the constitutional convention, so he was not a Framer. But he did serve as a delegate to the New York State ratifying convention, and he wrote some of the essays in The Federalist (or, as they are commonly called, The Federalist Papers) urging that the Constitution be approved. He was therefore a Ratifier and a Federalist as well as a Founder. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts actively participated in the federal convention, but publicly opposed the final resuld, so he was a Framer and an Anti-Federalist. He was not a Ratifier, but did go on to play aprominent role in the First Federal Congress. Like Gerry, George Mason was a Framer and an Anti-Federalist. He also was a delegate at the Virginia ratifying convention, and therefore a Ratifier.

"In this book, the phrase Founding Generation means the entire involved populace—Framers, Ratifiers, Federalists, Anti-Federalists, Founders, and anyone else participating formally or informally in the great national debate or ratification.

S..., in the section titled Evidence for the Original Constitution, Natelson refers to "the law of the Founding-Era" which I will use as a response to your assertion that the 1868 14th Amendment is informative about the original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" as understood by the original birthers, the Founders, in 1787.

"Lawyers, judges, and scholars seeking the Constitution's original legal effect use certain 'standard sources.'

[...]

"Another valuable source often overlooked is the law of the Founding-Era. Most of the leading Founders were lawyers and the general public was far more knowledgable about law that it is today. The Constitution was, of course, a legal document written in a particular legal environment. So you need to know something of 1787 law to fully understand the meaning of a legal document written in 1787. Sometimes a few pages from Bacon's Abridgment or Jacob's New Law-Dictionary can resolve decades of academic dispute."

- - - - - - - - - -

So S..., back at you with your own words -

>> "Thus your arguments once more come back to bite you in the ass, since the discussions regarding the 14th Amendment make it clear that it only codifies the law under the Constitution as originally written and any [Obama] birther legal theory requires the 14th to have created a new class of citizens."

ajtelles said...

waiting...

3/3

S..., although "...as originally written and any [Obama] birther legal theory requires the 14th to have created a new class of citizens" is ambiguous, it seems to fit the Obama-birthers, the defenders of the Obama birth narrative that implicit in "natural born Citizen" is the "theory" that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS, which is contrary to the original intent birthers who defend John Jay's underlinging the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit presuppositon that birth was to be ONLY on U.S. soil, with the concomitant implicit presupposition that birth was to be ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE the child is born.

PS. S...,

Prof. Bob Natelson is an honorable man, and when he takes a deeper look at the original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" in Article II as he has done with Article V and the "convention of states to amend the constitution," Natelson will without a doubt publicly endorse the erudition of Mario Appuzo and his explication of the original intent of "natural born Citizen" as understood by the original birthers, the original Founders, the original Framers, original Ratifiers, and the Federalists and Anti-Federalists.

PPS. S...,

It appears that you definitely have read Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, and you are attempting to marginalize Mario by sending code to your paid or unpaid "cadre" cohorts to use Mario's name in a demeaning manner, in a politially inept disinformation campaign.

S..., if you haven't read former Romanian Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa's 2013 book, Disinformation, Former Spy Chief Reveals Secret Strategies for Undermining Freedom, Attacking Religion, and Promoting Terrorism, you will discover how I spotted your disinformation intent instantly.

S..., you and the Obirthers can't win in debate with Mario, so you attempt to marginalize his erudition in the eyes of your Obama-birther paid or unpaid "cadre" cohort with the quote below, an Alinsky disinformation tactic -

>> "I believe that Obots should start using the term "Apuzzo" for such triumphs.
>> "For instance: Saddam Hussein's Apuzzo in the First Gulf War was only exceeded by that in the second.
Or
>> "Osama Bin Laden's Apuzzo at the hands of President Obama and Seal Team Six proved to be a defining moment in his life.

S..., you and the Obirthers, including Foggy Fogbow and Kevin Davidson/Dr. Conspiracy and the "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama... Obotized denizens who frequent their sites, can't win an original intent debate about original sources with Mario, so you seek to demean Mario's diginity by suggesting to your fellow Obirthers that his name be diminished, demeaned and destroyed.

S..., by your own Alinsky acolyte disinformation words you have been outed, dude.

S..., you write like online disinformation agent, paid or unpaid, sent from "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama... Obot Central Control, or somewhere, wherever Obama birth narrative Obirthers come from to spew their tripe that shows lack of respect for original intent and the original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" in Article II.

S..., I could be wrong. You could be simply an unpaid misinformation dissembler true-believer.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here is an oldie but goody from Dr. Conspiracy. He argues:
[...]
http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2009/05/de-vattel-revisited/ .
[...]
There are several problems with Dr. Conspiracy’s argument."

Doesn't Doc C. get any credit for being right, as we now know from court rulings? Look at when he wrote article: May of 2009. The first court to decide the merits of the theory that Obama is ineligible because his father was not a citizen was the Court of Appeals of Indiana in November of 2009 (Ankeny v. Daniels, 916 N.E.2d 678). Since then, other courts have examined the merits, and they all agree.

Today we have all these court rulings, but Dr. Conspiracy had none of that when he wrote the article. Somehow, he figured it out.

Incidentally, I recently outed myself over at Dr. C's blog. I'm brygenon, which is short for Bryan Gene Olson.

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose; I believe I have an explanation for the pre-2000 foreign-birth scenario involving a foreign parent who needed to be naturalized to confer derivative citizenship on their child.

The parent who brought the child to the U.S. was the foreign parent, not the U.S. parent, hence legal immigration permission was needed, and the child was not a citizen while in her/his custody until they were naturalized.

No mention is made of the citizen parent. He (a U.S. serviceman?) remained abroad while the mother received permission to enter the U.S. accompanied only by her alien child.

Anonymous said...

Slarti wrote: "the 14th Amendment make it clear that it only codifies the law under the Constitution...and any birther legal theory requires the 14th to have created a new class of citizens."

Oh, but then there is me and I am a birther that breaks your neat little mold view.
The amendment codified COMMON LAW, not NATURAL LAW. As a result, a new kind of officially, federally recognized citizenship emerged, -the kind that had existed in the States from their establishment as colonies (IOW in the united States but not The United States).

But jus soli citizenship had never been officially embraced by the executive branch of the federal government and had even been rejected because it produced dual-citizenship with a dual allegiance possibility, along with a conflict of sovereignty over the national service demanded of male citizens and subjects.

But as you are aware, Obama Sr. was exempt from the jurisdiction mentioned in the amendment, and thus his son was as well, rendering him a British subject only.
If only his father had been an immigrant, then he would have fathered an American per the 14th Amendment common law, instead of an alien as was the case.
"Non-immigrant alien" = non-subject alien = non-subject child = non-citizen child.

It's quite simple and plain but the boneheads in the Justice Dept. have followed the directive of the John Griggs Justice Dept since 1898 and have never had motivation to question it. It is pure institutionalized error.
a.r.nash

Anonymous said...

In Coke's report on Calvin's case;

"2. There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances;"
I'd describe them thus: 1. Natural (inherited) obedience = natural subject. 2. Acquired obedience = denizen status; not born of subjects but alien immigrants without the full rights of subjects. Eventually included under the umbrella term of "natural-born subject" after full rights were granted.
3. Local obedience, i.e. temporary obedience while a foreigner is within and under the royal dominion.
4. Legal obedience, -that required by sworn officers of the government or fiduciaries who pledged or swore to carry out the laws of Parliament and the King faithfully or to fulfill their fiscal, fiduciary, guardianship or judicial duties.

Binney continues;
" But the common law principle of allegiance, was the law of all the States... -and by that principle the citizens of the United States are..., "
He was a neo-loyalist when it came to citizenship principles because he falsely described the British doctrine as a "principle" when it was anything but.
Principles are derived from nature and its laws. They are not man-made arbitrary rules created to benefit or control certain persons.
Binney was blind to not comprehend that all forms of allegiance were abolished as elements of nationality in the new nation. He must have been ignorant of the Dissertation of David Ramsay since he was oblivious to the impact of something called "The Revolution".

His view had the new nation faithfully continuing in the royal doctrine, pattern, mold, tradition of Britain with nary an original thought of its own as to nationality and how it was rightfully acquired.
In other words, the USA was a slave to British common law practice. What a bonehead!

Where does he distinguish the difference between State nationality policy and federal? Nowhere. Instead he incredibly equates "The United States" with the British king, as if the government created by "We, The People" was the new monarch that everyone owed allegiance to in place of King George III.
That not only is un-American; it is even anti-American. It has Government as the new Sovereign instead of We, The People. It was the new Lord and Master and we were just its new subjects.

That is treasonous to American principles and the very thing that men sacrificed all to over-throw. He was the dog that returned to its own vomit. a.r.nash

Anonymous said...

Posted today: "Why A Hyphen and an Underline Condemn Obama’s Presidency"

Why “natural-born subject” and “natural born citizen” are different
Suppose there was a huge controversy over who was eligible to be the American President. Suppose the debate was centered on the meaning of a couple of words.

Suppose that opposing sides argued not about what the words actually mean and how they are used, but about what they meant long ago, and even longer ago.

Suppose one side argued that when they were written they meant what they meant according to an outside international system, while the other side argued that they meant what they meant throughout the entire history of the British American colonies (and even longer -dating back hundreds of years) under an overthrown dictatorship (the British government & Monarchy).
Suppose the supporters of the international system that is claimed to define the meaning of those words resorted to a fictional meaning to define them, -a legal “idiom”, a legal term of art(ifice) instead of simply relying on the meaning of the words themselves.

Suppose that their opposition did the very same thing but argued that the fictional meaning was the original fictional meaning under the British and not the fictional meaning attached correctly or incorrectly, logically or illogically, under the international system.

Suppose that the theories of both sides had gigantic fundamental flaws the size of houses in them and yet neither was willing to acknowledge those holes.
Suppose that the holes were clearly identified and illuminated and yet they still refused to acknowledge them because they preferred instead to adhere to their embraced dogma and its supports for their self-constructed matrix of false reality.

In such a scenario, how would or could the actual truth ever emerge and slap them in the face and shout; “WAKE UP! YOU’RE DREAMING!”?
Suppose that the actual truth is found in the meaning of the words themselves, just like most other sayings used in life. Might there be some evidence to show that the words were not used as a legal term of artifice but in a literal sense?
As a matter of fact, there is such evidence, -hints of the reality of their actual meaning.
Those hints reveal the truth about their usage and intent.
They are seen in only two seemingly inconsequential usages.
One, the first, is the use of a hyphen between the two adjective modifiers, and the other is the use of an underline by John Jay when he wrote to General Washington...urging him to disallow anyone from becoming Commander in Chief who was not a natural born citizen.
A hyphen and an underline are all that we have, but they are all that we need. continued... http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/06/03/why-a-hyphen-and-an-underline-condemn-obamas-presidency/

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