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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Carlyle said...

@ June 3, 2014 at 10:47 PM
Mario Apuzzo and Wilted Rose,

The quality of our nation’s law and political science professors' research and writing on the question of what is a natural born citizen is really at the bottom of the barrel.


================================

This has been one of my ongoing issues. It would no doubt be amazing to see the quality of these opinions and writings significantly improve if they were not trying to defend a favored outcome.

Had the question of the definition of NBC been seriously addressed in a neutral, stress-free, context - there would be much less pounding of square pegs into round holes!

ajtelles said...

research...

Mario, maybe it's time to help the "nation's law and political science professors" such as Robert Natelson and Mark Levin and et alii to become informed about the 1787 original intent and perpetual relevance of Article II by including discussion about Article II with Article V and the state legislatures' authority to "...call a Convention for proposing Amendments...."

I have started to combine Article II and Article V in discussions on other forums when the opportunity arises.

Both Article II and Article V are original intent inseparable.

Since the grass roots, aka We the People, have 1787 Article V original intent authority to supervise the U.S. Congress, the President and the SCOTUS, then Article V is still relevant in 2014 America. Both Natelson and Levin accurately contend for the original intent of Article V, so I contend that they and others MUST start to look seriously at the perpetual relevance of the original intent of Article II for 2014 America before another I-I-I-OCCUPY-America POTUS aspirant tries to OCCUPY the oval office.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

This one at least understood the fact that John Jay's children born overseas would be natural born citizens, so there is some hope.

She makes some mistakes, but at least she's starting to point in the right direction.

It beats the heck out of the dreck that is already out there.

June 2, 2014
The Natural Born Citizen Clause as Originally Understood
Mary Brigid McManamon
Widener University School of Law
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2444766

Unknown said...

Logic.

I was looking at Minor v Happersett again and this is what I came up with.

In Minor v Happersett, the question was one of citizenship.

1) "It was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also."

1A) Premise: all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens are citizens.

2) "Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. "

2A) Premise: children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents may not be citizens.

3) "For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts."

3A) Premise: The plaintiff was born in a country of parents who were its citizens (inferred)

4) "It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens."

4A) Conclusion: The plaintiff is a citizen.

Reprise:
Premise: all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens are citizens.
Premise: children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents may not be citizens.
Premise: The plaintiff was born in a country of parents who were its citizens (inferred)
Conclusion: Therefore, the plaintiff is a citizen.

So, being born in the country to citizen parents is a sufficient condition for being a citizen, but it is not a necessary condition because persons who are naturalized are also citizens. Naturalization is also a sufficient condition.

OK so far?

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

I am confident that the restriction of the office of Commander-in-Chief to those born a US citizen (as opposed to those gaining their citizenship later in life) is both the intent of the Framers of the Constitution and sufficient to provide the "strong check against the admission of foreigners" that John Jay suggested as well.


What about your problem with the intent of the Framers? Specifically, the Framers of the 14th Amendment. You completely ignored the point I was making. Remember, that's a part of the Constitution and we must consider it in the context of the people who wrote it. They seemed to think that they were merely restating the law that existed under the Constitution as originally written.

In this light, it becomes clear that the 14th Amendment could not have created a class of "naturalized at birth" citizens that did not exist under the Constitution as originally written. Furthermore, we know that the vast majority of natural born citizens are 14th Amendment citizens---namely the class that we all agree on, those born on the soil to citizen parents. Since the text of the 14th only recognizes two classes of citizens: those born and those naturalized and we know that the former includes most natural born citizens, the existence of a third class is completely unsupported by either the original intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment or its language. Or, to put it in Art-speak, it's just original intent wrong.

Which means that your long digression was pretty much entirely irrelevant, although I will note that I don't have a problem with the semantics you suggested (I don't think that I've ever used any of those terms in a way that differs from the meanings from your quote in any case).

Regarding Professor Natelson, does your comment mean that if he doesn't publicly endorse Mario's faux erudition and his crank theory that you will admit that you have been wrong all along and President Obama is a natural born citizen by both the intent of the Founders and the law as understood by the Judicial Branch? Or is your definition of what is true and what is false based solely on what would reflect badly on President Obama?

Birthers like yourself seem to have trouble understanding how the judicial branch works (which I would think might be a problem for, say, a DUI lawyer turned wannabe Constitutional scholar---it might, for instance, lead to such a person having no success whatsoever in their litigation while receiving orders to show cause why they should not be sanctioned... just sayin'). As a poster over at Doc C's pointed out, you don't respect the judiciary's role in interpreting previous decisions about the meaning of the Constitution. When a court (such as the Indiana court in Ankeny) decides that President Obama is a natural born citizen, then that is the law. Your choices are to accept it or to appeal the decision. If the case doesn't get appealed or is eventually denied without comment by the SCOTUS, then the matter is settled. You don't get to ignore the decisions of courts just because you happen to disagree with them and the courts have spoken clearly and unanimously on this matter. It is a legal fact that President Obama is not a usurper, but you persist in calling him one because your delusions demand it.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

I've seen a list of Alinsky's rules, but I've never read his book. You make the same mistake regarding Alinsky's rules that we did with the "War on Terror". Terrorism is a tactic that was used against us by Islamic extremists in general and Al Qaeda in particular. It is also a tactic used by the Founders in the Revolutionary war (certainly the British thought so). It makes no sense to fight against a tactic rather than an opponent---especially when you attempt to use that tactic yourself. Not only does attempting to ridicule myself or other anti-birthers while squawking about "Alinsky tactics" reek of hypocrisy, but, due to your egregiously erroneous assumptions, remarks which you intend to be cutting are merely puzzling to your target at best and at worst make you look ridiculous instead.

As for your assertion that making fun of Mario is a group effort with Foggy and Doc C because we can't win an "original intent debate about original sources with Mario", nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, on this very thread, Foggy invited Mario to address the Fogbow gathering in Philadelphia a couple of weeks ago, offering to pay for his dinner and travel as well. After he made this offer, I told Foggy that I would be willing to debate Mario one-on-one in case he was scared of having real lawyers debate him. Doc C was also at this meet up, so Mario could have faced all three of us and argued his interpretation of original intent. Instead, although Mario let Foggy's offer through his moderation, he never responded to it or referenced it in any way. It seems like we weren't the ones scared of debate...

My attempt to "demean Mario's dignity", as you put it, consisted of a comment here as well as posts on two threads over at the Fogbow ("Mario Apuzzo" and "Birther Dictionary". The sum total of responses I got were Mario complaining that I wasn't writing enough (the 140 character crack) and a laughing smiley over at the Fogbow. If I wanted to marginalize Mario, I would try to force him to confine most of his comments to a nearly year-old thread responding to a long departed satirical blogger on a low-traffic blog and make sure that whenever he ventured outside of this bubble everything he said would be quickly refuted... Wait a sec... Damn, I'm good!

Truth is, I could never diminish Mario's name more than he has already managed to do himself.

Finally, I congratulate you on making a true statement when you said, "I could be wrong." Good luck on taking the next step and realizing that your blind hatred of President Obama has led you to believe in a myriad of falsehoods.

Mario,

Is that enough characters for you?

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose, Is my memory incorrect or did not statement 1. conclude with "these are natives, or natural born citizens."?
If so, then premise 1A is incomplete by referencing only citizen children and not natural born citizen children.

Statement 2 spoke of doubts about citizenship because State law or policy was opposed to federal policy since State nationality rules included jus soli citizenship whereas federal rules did not.
Premise 2A is incomplete without being accompanied by the collateral conclusion that those in the first class are natural born citizens, not just citizens.

Premise 3A is off the mark. For the purposes of the case all that was needed was knowing that Ms Minor was born a citizen, stipulated to by both sides.

Being born to citizen parents is a sufficient condition for being a citizen, and it is a necessary condition to be born as a natural citizen since natural citizenship isn't about where one was born but to whom one was born; an American father? or a foreign father? With alienage or without alienage? American blood or foreign blood? American jurisdiction only or dual jurisdiction?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You said:

“I am confident that the restriction of the office of Commander-in-Chief to those born a US citizen (as opposed to those gaining their citizenship later in life) is both the intent of the Framers of the Constitution and sufficient to provide the "strong check against the admission of foreigners" that John Jay suggested as well.”

-----

The issue is what the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ definition of an Article II “natural born citizen” was and whether that definition was ever constitutionally changed. What makes you confident regarding what you personally believe should have satisfied the Framers’ intent for including the natural born citizen clause as one of the requirements for presidential eligibility is worthless in that regard. It also looks like you suffer from the same ailment as Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife. You believe that just repeating something over and over is sufficient to make it true.

As I have demonstrated and which you have not been able to refute, your Maskell born a citizen theory not only does not have any historical and legal support, but also makes no sense. It cannot be reasonably disputed that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 provides that a “Citizen of the United States” was eligible to be President, provided that the person had that status on or before the day the Constitution was adopted. It is critically important that Article II does not qualify the clause “citizens of the United States” by whether the citizen is one at birth or after birth. It just says “Citizen of the United States.” Article II also provides that for those persons who were to be born after the Constitution’s adoption, no person who was not a natural born citizen would be eligible to be President. This constitutional scheme plainly informs that to be a citizen of the United States, no matter of what type, was no longer sufficient to be eligible to be President, for one now had to be a natural born citizen.

Contrary to your personal wishes and regardless of what may motivate you, we cannot simply write the natural born citizen clause out of the Constitution and replace it with a Fourteenth Amendment or even a statutory “citizen of the United States” at birth.

This leaves us with the only definition of a natural born citizen upon which the Framers relied, that has ever been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court, and which to this day has never been constitutional amended. That definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898).

P.S. Truth is proven through quality (evidence that is applied through logic and reason). Quantity is only a part of quality, for quality is needed to identify quantity and apply it to arrive at truth.

An argument can have too many or too little words to prove its point or just enough to do so. The amount of words needed to prove one's point depends upon the complexity of the issue being discussed. Choosing the amount of words one uses to attempt to prove one's point is done at one's own risk of stating that which is not necessary to the argument or not presenting enough evidence to prove one' point (not to be confuse with just receiving the accolades of a biased audience). In the end, it is quality or logic and reason themselves, which get their life from the issue being examined, which will dictate the amount of words that are needed to effectively and efficiently prove one's point.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

The response of mine which you refer to was to a persistent question from Art which was about what I believed (a subject on which my word IS the final authority. I can back up my claims (and have), but that wasn't relevant to answering Art's question.

As for you nonsense about "citizen of the United States", it all crumbles to dust when you realize that every natural born citizen who ever existed is also a citizen of the United States.

My position, by the way, has an enormous amount of historical support rooted in four centuries of jurisprudence which has been confirmed by multiple contemporary courts. Your reasoning, on the other hand, is "confirmed" only by a mistranslation of a Swiss philosopher who the Founders never referenced on the topic of citizenship in any case, the dicta of an overturned SCOTUS case which provides a sufficient condition but expresses doubts regarding the necessary condition needed to complete a definition and your own cognitive bias.

If you want to see this to be true (and you don't respect the fact that the courts haven't expressed doubt on the issue of whether or not the native born children of aliens are natural born in over a century), just look at the original intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment---to overturn Scott v. Sandford by codifying the law as it was under the Constitution as originally written. This necessarily precludes the "naturalized at birth" class of citizens which your theories require.


Regarding the quantity of verbiage, I would point out that no matter how many words you use, you will never be able to prove a falsehood.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of III

You said:

“As for you nonsense about ‘citizen of the United States’, it all crumbles to dust when you realize that every natural born citizen who ever existed is also a citizen of the United States.”

-----

You sure sound like Unknown/NotLinda. Sure, all poodles are dogs. Therefore, all dogs are poodles. LOL

You said:

“My position, by the way, has an enormous amount of historical support rooted in four centuries of jurisprudence which has been confirmed by multiple contemporary courts. Your reasoning, on the other hand, is "confirmed" only by a mistranslation of a Swiss philosopher who the Founders never referenced on the topic of citizenship in any case, the dicta of an overturned SCOTUS case which provides a sufficient condition but expresses doubts regarding the necessary condition needed to complete a definition and your own cognitive bias. “

-----

First, your four centuries of jurisprudence is relative only to subjectship in Great Britain, in the colonies, and citizenship in the individual states. None of it relates to our national citizenship. Hence, only through the grace of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark does it tell us since 1898 who is a citizen of the United States. That monarchical jurisprudence does not tell us who is a natural born citizen. Second, I am not going to repeat all the historical and legal evidence that I have provided which demonstrates that I am correct and you are not regarding the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. But I will share with you one source from the Founding period which further shows I am correct and you are not. I have already cited this source but not provided a direct quote from him. So here we go.

Nathan Dane wrote “two major legal treatises. The first of these was published in 1823, titled A General Abridgement and Digest of American Law. Its eight volumes were supplemented by a ninth in 1829.[3] The Abridgment was very successful,[9] and was the ‘first systematic treatise covering the entire field of American law.’[10] It became a standard work, and every lawyer of distinction bought a copy.[11]

Dane used the substantial proceeds from the Abridgement to provide an endowment for a law school at Harvard University, specifying that the first Dane Professorship of Law would go to his old friend Joseph Story. For a while, Harvard Law School was called ‘Dane Law School.’"[12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Dane .

Here is how Dane explained American national law on citizenship:

“By the Acts of Congress of March 26, 1790, and January 29, 1795, an alien father being naturalized, his children under twenty-one years of age, dwelling in the United States, cease to be aliens and become citizens. Citizens of the United States having their children born beyond sea, are as natural born citizens. But the right of citizenship is not to descend to persons whose fathers never have been resident in the United States.”

4 Dane’s Abridgement, ch. 131; art. 2, § 2, 698 (1824). Dane did not given any importance to whether a child born to an alien father was born in or out of the United States. He made no mention of the place of birth because it was not relevant when the father was an alien. Any children born to alien parents were alien born. Dane later explicitly confirms this rule in Section 8 of his treatise. Also, Dane said of children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents that they “are as natural born citizens.” He did not say that they “are natural born citizens.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

Dane further confirmed that after the American Revolution, children born in the United States to alien parents were alien born. In Section 2, Dane fully explained Calvin’s Case and the English common law jus soli rule of acquiring the status of a natural-born subject in England. But then he goes on to explain what the American common law rule was. He stated:

“And now if an American citizen goes abroad and marries an alien wife, and have a child by her in a foreign country, that child is not alien, but may inherit his estate in the United States. But if an American woman, a citizen, go abroad and marry an alien husband, and have a child by him, so born, that child is an alien, and cannot inherit her estate in the United States. And upon the same principles, if an English subject comes into the United States, and marries an American wife, and has a child by her born here: it cannot inherit her estate here, because this child follows the allegiance of its father, and may inherit his estate in England.”

Id. § 8, at 701.

The first thing to notice is that Dane said “[a]nd now,” meaning that now things were different from how they had been before. We can see in this statement the strength of partus sequitur patrem (children follow the condition of their parents) and the right of a nation to impose its positive or municipal law upon those born in its territory regardless of to whom they may be born. Dane explained that in the United States where the child was born did not alone control the question of the child’s U.S. allegiance and citizenship. What did control was whether the child’s father (meaning whether both father and mother were citizens under the then-prevailing rule of unity of citizenship between husband and wife) was a U.S. citizen. So the rule that a “child follows the allegiance of its father,” what Dane described as “upon the same principles,” determined the citizenship of a child born either in or out the United States. If the father was a U.S. citizen, making the mother also a U.S. citizen, the child was a citizen regardless of the place of birth. With the citizenship of the wife and child following the husband and father, dual allegiance and citizenship was also avoided under U.S. law. Such dual allegiance and citizenship arose when a foreign nation like England used the jus soli concept of citizenship, allowing the child of a U.S. citizen father born in England to also acquire through English positive or municipal law British citizenship by birth in its territory although to alien parents.

Dane explained that a child born in the United States to a British subject father, even if married to a U.S. citizen mother, followed the allegiance of his or her alien father (which also made the mother alien) was alien born and a subject of Great Britain. Clearly then, Dane would have considered Obama, if born in the United States to a British father and a U.S. citizen mother, born to alien parents and alien born, a subject of Great Britain, and not a citizen of the United States, let alone a natural born citizen. Hence, requiring that children be born to U.S. citizen parents (during the Framing being citizen parents was accomplished by two U.S. citizens marrying each other or an alien woman marrying a U.S. citizen man), in order to be a U.S. citizen, there is no way that Dane or the Framers would have viewed Obama as a natural born citizen. Rather, they would have ruled that Obama was alien born and in need of naturalization which he could gain only after birth. Duane also confirmed that if children were born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, those children were not natural born citizen, but rather under the Naturalization Act of 1790, “are as natural born citizens.” (Under the 1795 Act and all that followed, in Dane’s words, they “are as citizens of the United States.”).

Slartibartast, read about Nathan Dane at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Dane and his Abridgement and cry.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

As can be seen, a child born in the United States to alien parents was not even a citizen, let alone a natural born citizen. This comes from Nathan Dane who was intimately involved in the Founding and would have known what other Framers and Founders thought about who were the citizens and the natural born citizens. What Dane said also further proves (the James Madison Administration also proves that I am correct) that I am correct that Congress’s early naturalization acts treated children born in the United States to alien parents as aliens. With that in mind and with many members of early Congress being Founders and Framers, there simply is no way that the Framers saw a child born in the United States to alien parents as a natural born citizen.

You said:

“If you want to see this to be true (and you don't respect the fact that the courts haven't expressed doubt on the issue of whether or not the native born children of aliens are natural born in over a century), just look at the original intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment---to overturn Scott v. Sandford by codifying the law as it was under the Constitution as originally written. This necessarily precludes the ‘naturalized at birth’ class of citizens which your theories require.”

-----

You cannot overcome the simple point that the Constitution only names two classes of citizens, the “natural born citizens” and the “citizens of the United States.” A natural born citizen has one and only one definition which is a child born in a country to parents who were citizens at the time of the child’s birth. All the rest of the citizens who are not natural born citizens are “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaties. Your attempt at arriving at who are the natural born citizens by merely separating from the citizens only those who obtained citizenship after birth (your bootstrapped natural born citizen) fails for the simple reason that not all born citizens are natural born citizens. Congress told us that when they wrote all the naturalization acts and the Fourteenth Amendment, both of which make born citizens who Congress did not call natural born citizens for the simple reason that they did not satisfy the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen.

So, it looks like you have not written enough words to prove that you are correct and that I am wrong.

Unknown said...

h2ooflife said...
Wilted Rose, Is my memory incorrect or did not statement 1. conclude with "these are natives, or natural born citizens."?
Answer:
The quote is: "At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."
They are separate sentences. The sentence "These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners." was not necessary to say they were citizens. It was already stated that they were citizens.
The issue was "citizenship" or the lack of it. Lets worry about the "natural born citizen" part later.

h2ooflife said...
Statement 2 spoke of doubts about citizenship because State law or policy was opposed to federal policy since State nationality rules included jus soli citizenship whereas federal rules did not.
Premise 2A is incomplete without being accompanied by the collateral conclusion that those in the first class are natural born citizens, not just citizens.
Answer:
2) "Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. "
Statement 2 is talking about just citizenship, not natural born citizenship. The court said there were doubts as to their citizenship when there is no reference to the citizenship of the parents, and that is all they said. The court didn't say anything about State vs Federal policy.
2A) Premise: children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents may not be citizens.
The premise said what the court said, and no more.

h2ooflife said...
Premise 3A is off the mark. For the purposes of the case all that was needed was knowing that Ms Minor was born a citizen, stipulated to by both sides.
Answer:
3) "For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts."
Since they did not have to solve those doubts, then Minor was without a doubt a citizen. If she was without a doubt a citizen, then by necessity she was born in the US to US citizen parents according to what the court just said. Statement 4 also supports this premise.
3A) Premise: The plaintiff was born in a country of parents who were its citizens (inferred)
The premise is sound.

4) "It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens."

4A) Conclusion: The plaintiff is a citizen.

I am following the logic of the court here. Since the issue was the privileges of citizenship, the court had to determine that she was without a doubt a citizen.

"Citizenship" alone was the issue discussed.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

How can you expect anyone to believe you when you blatantly misrepresent the straightforward logic of your opponents?

You characterized my statement as "all poodles are dogs" therefore since Spot is a dog, he is a poodle (paraphrasing).

In this analogy, poodles are natural born citizens and dogs are citizens of the United States. Thus Spot, because he is a poodle, must be a dog as well. Or, going back to the original, President Obama, because he is a natural born citizen, is a citizen of the United States. The idea that natural born citizens are not also citizens of the United States is ludicrous on its face and your continued misrepresentation of your opponent's positions only serves to demonstrate the unreliability of your reasoning.

One other painfully obvious concept which you completely misunderstand and try to obfuscate is quantity vs. quality. You say that quantity is a type of quality which, apart from being clearly untrue, explains a lot about your penchant for using hundreds of words when dozens will do. You can pile up as large a quantity of bovine excrement as you like, but its quality will never rise above that of a single cow patty.

As for my legal arguments, they are all consistent with the rulings in Ankeny and other contemporary cases. Until you can get a higher court to overrule them, they represent the official interpretation of the rulings of the SCOTUS (specifically, the interpretation of the Wong Kim Ark decision). I don't need to convince anyone that I'm right as I'm agreeing with the law as it currently stands. There is no need for me or any other anti-birther to do anything to allow President Obama to stay in office until January of 2017 and, conversely, there is nothing the birthers can do to have him removed from office due to ineligibility before then.

ajtelles said...

Voluble Prolix...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., on June 6, 2014 at 3:35 AM you wrote a "whole lotta" words, so, since you are responding with soooooooo many words (Shakespeare said that brevity is the soul of wit, but at least your prolix is voluble and not garrulous), I will stick to the 2 major items you start with, "born a US Citizen" and the "Framers," as you call them, of the 14th Amendment. The 14th amendment Framers support my contention that the original intent of the 1787 original "Framers" of Article II determined the "original intent of the 1868 "Framers" of the 14th Amendment.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "Art,

>> I am confident that the restriction of the office of Commander-in-Chief
>> to those born a US citizen
>> (as opposed to those gaining their citizenship later in life)
>> is both the intent of the Framers of the Constitution
>> and sufficient to provide the "strong check against the admission of foreigners"
>> that John Jay suggested as well.


S..., your very first sentence is deliberately ambiguous and obfuscatory, and you know it is because you always are not clear on this point.

So, here it is again, inspired by John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" only 4 years after the 1783 Treaty of Paris was signed, ending the war of independence.

My contention is that Jay was implying ONLY U.S. soil and ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents.

What is your contention S...?

[Hmm S..., does "born a US citizen" mean ONLY born on U.S. soil and ONLY born to TWO U.S. citizen parent?]
[Hmm S..., does "born a US citizen" mean ALSO born on U.S. soil AND born on foreign soil?]
[Hmm S..., does "born a US citizen" mean ALSO born to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent?]


- - - - - - - - - -

S... your second sentence is -

>> "What about your problem with the intent of the Framers?
>> Specifically, the Framers of the 14th Amendment.
>> You completely ignored the point I was making.
>> Remember, that's a part of the Constitution
>> and we must consider it in the context of the people who wrote it.
>> They seemed to think that they were merely restating the law that existed
>> under the Constitution as originally written."


S..., yep, the 14th Amendment "Framers" definitely did "...think that they were merely restating the law that existed under the Constitution as originally written."

S..., what's with reframing the "Framers" of the of the 1787 Article II as subordinate to the "Framers" of the 1868 14th Amendment?

S..., as you know, the 14th Amendment was about a "citizen" and did NOT amend the John Jay inspired Article II implicit definition of a "natural born Citizen." Right?

S..., the question is simple—were the 14th Amendment "Framers" intending to imply that the original intent of Article II included being born ONLY on U.S. soil and born ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE their child is born?

S..., the question is simple—were the 14th Amendment "Framers" intending to imply that the original intent of Article II include being born on U.S. soil and ALSO foreign soil?

S..., the question is simple—were the 14th Amendment "Framers" intending to imply that the original intent of Article II included being born ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent, married or not married?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

You said:

“As for you nonsense about ‘citizen of the United States’, it all crumbles to dust when you realize that every natural born citizen who ever existed is also a citizen of the United States.”

-----

I fail to see how anything crumbles by the fact that all natural born citizens are all citizens of the United States. We all know that and it proves nothing. Hence, there must be some other twisted logic in your thinking which you believe proves your point.

To find the fallacy in your argument, we start with the premise that not all citizens of the United States are natural born citizens. Obama, at best (if he was born in the United States), is a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. But you have to prove that he is not only a citizen of the United States at birth, but also a natural born citizen. It is there that you fail. You acknowledge because you must that a child born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents is a natural born citizen. But you also contend, without any evidence, that that is not the only definition that the Framers used for the clause. You contend that the Framers also accepted a child born in the United States to alien parents as a natural born citizen. But you do not provide any evidence that the Framers would have considered a child born in the United States to alien parents a citizen, let alone a natural born citizen. Instead of providing that evidence, you fast forward to 1898 and argue that under Wong Kim Ark Obama is a “citizen of the United States at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. You know that the Fourteenth Amendment does not name a “natural born citizen” and that Wong Kim Ark did not hold that Wong was a natural born citizen. Hence, fast forwarding is not enough for you. Indeed, you also need to do some revision to the definition of a natural born citizen. You have to invent a way to get the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark to make Obama a natural born citizen. It is there that Maskell and people like you come up with your revisionist definition of a natural born citizen, saying that all born citizens are natural born citizens, in effect telling us that the Fourteenth Amendment alone makes natural born citizens, even though Minor, Wong Kim Ark, and current courts have all said that the Amendment did not amend Article II’s natural born citizen clause. You then go forward and say that since Obama is a born citizen under the amendment, he must be a natural born citizen. But you do all that without ever linking any of that to the Framers. None of that stops you, for you supply the missing evidence with a logical fallacy. Here is your final argument which completes your fraudulent argument:

All natural born citizens are citizens of the United States at birth.

Obama is a citizen of the United States at birth.

Therefore, Obama is a natural born citizen.

LOL, for this is fallacious logic.

So, you do not have historical and legal evidence which shows that the Framers considered a child born in the United States to alien parents a natural born citizen. I have produced plenty of evidence which demonstrates that they did not. You do not have any historical and legal evidence which shows that the Framers considered all born citizens to be natural born citizens. I have produced plenty of evidence which demonstrates that they did not. You make up for your lack of evidence with fallacious logic.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

I see that you did not care to address what Nathan Dane said about whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was even a citizen. Dane said he was not. Can you just imagine if you asked him if that child was a natural born citizen. Without any doubt, Dane would have ruled that Obama was not even a citizen, let alone a natural born citizen. You and all the Obots must really be hurting over such an authority agreeing with me.

It also looks like you are not able to defend your baseless position (regardless of the quantity of words you use) and so in grand Obot style you just default to what some lower courts (not the U.S. Supreme Court) have ruled on the question of the meaning of a natural born citizen. What those courts have said and the evidence and reasoning they have used to support their conclusion (if we can find any) stands on its own. Nothing more needs to be said about that.

As far as Obama staying in office, that will not change that he is not a natural born citizen and that he and Chester Arthur go down in history as constitutionally ineligible for the office they usurped.

By the way, you gambled with the quantity of your words, assuming that they would give your argument a desired quality. But the words that you chose produced a bad quality in your argument. You have therefore failed to prove your position.

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose, The quote by the court included within the same thought the labeling of what type of citizen was being identified, namely: natural born citizens. That is not something to gloss over for later. It is central from our perspective.

WR: "2A) Premise: children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents may not be citizens."
The premise said what the court said, and no more.

reply: Yes and no. "As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. " And what was the first class? It was natural born citizens. That's why I wrote that "Premise 2A is incomplete..." Not wrong. Just not the full context, since what was stated was regarding those about whom there were doubts versus those who were natural born citizens.

The doubts existed because the sovereign States had their own citizenship policies in regard to the native born while the Federal government, created out of nothing, had adopted a policy of Natural Law that conflicted with the British common law of the States.
The doubts were not within the States nor within the executive branch but in regard to the conflict between them and their different principles.
It was purely a Federal vs State conflict resulting in an unsettled status quo resulting in uncertainty. That uncertainty was settled by WKA.

WR: "I am following the logic of the court here. "Citizenship" alone was the issue discussed. Conclusion: The plaintiff is a citizen."

reply: As I said, it was stipulated by both sides that she was born a citizen. But nevertheless, the court decided for whatever reason to indulge its desire for a fishing expedition regarding citizenship when that was not even a subject of contention nor seeking adjudication.
They could have and should have moved straight to the issue of voting rights and left the uncontested citizenship issue alone.
They must have had a very slow month and wanted something to solved that was not so transparently evident as the voting issue.

"These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."
That is a lame, incomplete and insufficient statement because it left out an entire class of people; the native born of aliens. Only an ignorant fool would think that many hundreds of years of custom, rules, tradition, and law regarding children native-born of immigrants would produce a view that they were either natural born or foreigners.
They were neither since they were something in between and that statement completely ignored them, -from the perspective of the nation-state republics that constituted the union.

But in the view of the new federal government and continuing on forward until WKA, they were viewed as aliens.

I read yesterday an amazing fact about which I have to write something, and it is that in Japan, even to the fourth generation of native-born aliens (mostly Koreans) jus soli citizenship is not permitted. They must naturalized to become Japanese even though they are culturally assimilated and only speak Japanese. The history between the two nations is why.

Slartibartfast said...

Once again, Mario achieves another stunning "Apuzzo"!

President Obama is a natural born citizen.

All natural born citizens are citizens of the United States.

Therefore President Obama is a citizen of the United States.

This is what I said and it is logically correct (whether you agree with the first statement or not). Mario reversed the terms in the first and last statements to misrepresent my statement as fallacious.

In my experience, people who have strong arguments bend over backwards to make sure they are correctly understanding their opponents (to ensure that they actually refute their positions instead of a straw man. Mario, on the other hand, misrepresents the positions of myself and others and obfuscates his own positions (going so far as to tell obvious lies about the definitions of mathematical terms). The obvious conclusion is that he is worried that if everyone understands the arguments he is making they wont stand up on their merits.

Regarding the lower courts, while they can be overruled by the SCOTUS, that does not mean that their decisions carry no weight---on the contrary, they are the law unless and until they are overturned by a higher court. Mario, how do you think a judge would react if opposing counsel cited Ankeny and you objected because it was not a SCOTUS decision? I'm guessing that such a tactic wouldn't fly in any courtroom in this country.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

The court in Minor never mentions the facts of Ms. Minor's birth or her citizenship---it was only necessary for them to establish that there were female citizens to support their conclusion that voting is not a privilege of citizenship (at which point Ms. Minor's claim became moot).

ajtelles said...

stop drinkin'...

S..., aka Slartibartfast, on June 6, 2014 at 9:04 PM, you said something childish to Mario -

>> "Once again, Mario achieves another stunning "Apuzzo"!

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., your immaturity slip is showing.

Until you reveal your real name, your childish Saul Alinsky tactic of demeaning your opponent by isolating and marginalizing them, reveals that your are a paid or unpaid "cadre" mind-numbed robot without a soul simply following your manchurian candidate marching orders.

S..., as I have asked you before on March 28, 2014 at 12:12 PM, "how old are you?"

_S...fast, how old are you?
_S...fast, are you still in college?
_S...fast, are you retired from full-time employment?
_S...fast, are you employed part-time?

_S...fast, are you getting paid by DARPA to shill for and to position, aka to "frame," BHObama as Article II eligible to be POTUS?

_S...fast, are you an independent contractor "framing" your Article II Section 1 Clause 5 inanity with innuendo, malice and hate?

S...fast, another word for innuendo is disinformation, the deliberate attempt to misrepresent an idea or a person, and to position, aka “frame,” an idea or a person, either positively or negatively.

S...fast, your presence on Mario's forum is for a reason, so what is YOUR reason?

S...fast, your effort here on Mario's forum to position, aka to "frame," BHObama as fulfilling Article II with ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent 'cause the 14th amendment implies that he fulfills the Article II requirement, well, that is inane.

S...fast, why do you continue with what is obvious inanity?

S...fast, are you an intellectual supporter of the disinformation implicit in BHObama's carefully nuanced hit job on the U.S. Constitution, “... we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.”

S...fast, are you promoting the “hit job” on the U.S. Constitution that started with BHO's obvious obfuscation about his lineage, heritage and nativity and his obvious self-awareness about his lack of Article II Section 1 Clause 5 eligibility authority because he knows that he is NOT a 'natural born Citizen' because he was NOT born on U.S. soil with TWO (2) U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other before he was conceived or born?

S...fast, are you aware that even if BHObama could have claimed his Hawaii neighbor and communist mentor Frank Marshall Davis as his father, BHO would still NOT be a “natural born Citizen” because Frank and Stanley Ann Dunham, alleged to be BHO's mother, would not have been married to each other.

S...fast, since you like to traffic in inane hypotheticals that you think add credence to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent and one (1) foreign citizen parent can reproduce a citizen who is a 'natural born Citizen,” what would the “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirthers have done if BHO had claimed Davis as his own father and his alleged mothers mate?

S...fast, the Obama Obirthers, aka “shillers,” aka “swindlers” of accuracy and truth, would have shilled for BHO by saying that being “married” was not implied in 1787 America in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, a conclusion which would be as inane as saying that ONLY one (1) U.S. Citizen parent in physical union with a foreign “citizen” is sufficient to physically produce a child who is ALSO a “citizen” who is a Clause 5 “natural born Citizen.”

S...fast, maybe you could read again Logotherapy vs. Logorrhea, posted on March 24, 2014 at 6:08 PM, which briefly explains that logotherapy, the study of meaning, is the foundation of healthy thinking, healthy speaking, healthy writing, and logotherapy is the cure for logorrhea.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You said:

“President Obama is a natural born citizen.

All natural born citizens are citizens of the United States.

Therefore President Obama is a citizen of the United States.”

-----

You have got to be kidding me!

First, it does not matter that your argument is logically valid, for the argument is unsound. Your major premise, President Obama is a natural born citizen, is false or at least you have not proven it to be true. Hence, even though your conclusion may be true, it does not follow from your premises. Hence, the argument is not sound.

Second, your conclusion does not prove your position, i.e., that Obama is a natural born citizen. The issue is whether de facto President Barack Obama is a natural born citizen. Where did you get the asinine idea that assuming he is a natural born citizen to prove that he is a citizen of the United States gets you anywhere in that regard? How ridiculous can you be thinking that by proving he is a citizen of the United States you have proven that he is a natural born citizen. It is not sufficient that Obama may be a citizen of the United States, for not all such citizens are natural born citizens. You still have to prove that he is a natural born citizen. So, your little syllogism proves absolutely nothing. Given how you are going, you can articulate neither a logical argument that is material to the issue nor a sound one.

As far as those lower court rulings, why not defend those decisions by telling us through what historical and legal evidence and reason they arrived at their conclusion rather than just telling us that those lower courts ruled in your favor.

In short, Slartibartfast, you do a lot of talking because you like to hear yourself talk. But your talk has no substance. I suspect that I am not the first person to tell you that. I also suspect that immaturity plays a big part in your troubles.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

"Prolix" is an adjective. This kind of grammatical mistake (which is not at all uncommon in your writing), is indicative of someone who is trying to sound more erudite than they actually are. I suggest you stick to smaller words who's meanings you understand. There's no shame in a lack of formal education, but no one is fooled by your trying to pretend otherwise.

Also, regarding the writers of the 14th Amendment (I was trying to use the semantics that you yourself had suggested for people involved with writing the Constitution---which surely includes those who wrote each of the Amendments---but if you don't like that terminology I'll drop it), if they were trying to follow the original intent of the Framers, that means that the 14th Amendment didn't alter the law, it just made it explicit, which means that President Obama (along with Jindal and Rubio but not Cruz) were citizens under the Constitution as originally written---in other words, before Congress had established a uniform rule of naturalization. As a result, he could only be a natural born citizen. This interpretation (that the 14th Amendment didn't change the existing law) is, in fact, consistent with the words of Binney and the other authors of the 14th Amendment.

Anonymous said...

Slarti opined: ...it becomes clear that the 14th Amendment could not have created a class of "naturalized at birth" citizens that did not exist under the Constitution as originally written."

I've come to the realization that anyone who talks about "citizenship" is about as far along in understanding as week # 1 of Citizenship 101. Why? Because there were then TWO separate and unconnected worlds: the world of the State republics and the world of the new Federal government which had no principles imposed on it by the Constitution in regard to American federal citizenship policy.

It was thus totally free to follow Natural Law and reject the British common law that many or most States incorporated in their citizenship clauses and statutes.

So to blabber on about citizenship is nothing other than an exercise in ambiguity unless one states specifically which type of citizenship one is discussing; State or National.

So Slarti's statement is true but only from the perspective of the States; not from the perspective of the United States Justice Department.
From its perspective, in which alien-born State citizens were not officially recognized as United States citizens, a new class most certainly was created since such State citizens were from thenceforth officially U.S. citizens from birth.
Not naturalized. Not natural born. Just common law citizens.

The stupid belief that it must be either the first or the second requires a perversion of what either "naturalized" means, or a perversion of what "natural born" means.

cont...

Anonymous said...

part II. Slarti opinied: "Furthermore, we know that the vast majority of natural born citizens are 14th Amendment citizens... those born on the soil to citizen parents."

That could not be more wrong or more stupid. Natural born citizens existed and would exist without the ratification of the Constitution or the 14th Amendment.
They were the natural, native citizens of America via citizenship by descent in their home colony--republic or commonwealth.

They were natural born citizens when they approved the Declaration of Independence and turned their colonies into republics with full sovereignty and full governments.

"Since the text of the 14th only recognizes two classes of citizens: those born and those naturalized and we know that the former includes most natural born citizens, the existence of a third class is completely unsupported by either the original intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment or its language."

You've just decapitated your own position by making that true statement. The original intent was solely aimed at freed slaves, NOT alien-born children of fathers subject to a foreign jurisdiction.

The framers specifically stated that subject to the jurisdiction meant subject to the FULL jurisdiction (which includes a citizen's duty to serve the national defense if called) and NOT subject to the alien father's home government.

Understand that no baby born then could be born outside of the family nationality which flowed from the family head: the father. They were deemed by the U.S. Justice Department to be whatever their father was; American or foreign; NEVER BOTH!

But that was not the attitude of the States since international sovereignty was not a concern of theirs; the were all about increasing the State population and keeping all members of society equal within some minor residency considerations.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

The premise was irrelevant to my point: namely that you misrepresented what I said. To rephrase:

I said:

All poodles are dogs.

Spot is a poodle.

Therefore Spot is a dog.

You claimed I said:

All poodles are dogs.

Spot is a dog.

Therefore Spot is a poodle.

Regardless of the nature of "Spot", the first is logically valid and the second is not. This is far from the first time you've misrepresented myself or others (and you usually continue to do so even after your error is pointed out, making the behavior willful). Do you not understand that this is unequivocally dishonest or do you feel that dishonesty is the only way you can win an argument? If your logic is so sound, why are you scared of applying it to your opponent's real positions?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

If the Fourteenth Amendment were to be interpreted to mean that a person born in the United States while not subject to any foreign power is a citizen of the United States, then it would not have changed existing national law with respect to the policy behind a natural born citizen. But the way Wong Kim Ark interpreted the amendment, i.e., born in the United State and subject to its laws, the amendment did change existing national law, for it abrogated the Naturalization Act of 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as aliens and the Civil Rights Act of 1866 which treated children born in the United States and “subject to a foreign power” as aliens, and thereby created dual and conflicting allegiances and citizenships in children born in the United States to alien parents who Wong Kim Ark took to be citizens of the United States at birth. To contend that the amendment did not change existing national law under Wong Kim Ark’s interpretation of its “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause is to deny reality which you are so good at doing.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote to Slarti: "As far as those lower court rulings, why not defend those decisions by telling us through what historical and legal evidence and reason they arrived at their conclusion."

He could do that but doing so comes with a built-in snare. He could explain that according to various "authoritative" pundits and judges, the U.S. was still adhering to British common law nationality rules. And by them a "natural-born subject" was anyone who was a subject, ergo, a natural born citizen is anyone who is a citizen.
Only that has a gigantic flaw that everyone can see; it includes what the British included: naturalized citizens, and everyone agrees that in America that was not the case.

So there is no way to avoid an unsolvable paradox or conflict of rules. That is why his ilk promulgate the logic of everyone "born a citizen" being "natural born" but cannot elucidate the principles behind that argument because they contain a huge and fatal flaw.

correction: I said that both sides in Minor stipulated that she was born a citizen, but I believe I confused that case with Wong in which both sides stipulated that he was born in the United States.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

De facto President Barack Obama is not a natural born citizen under the one and only constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Obama’s eligibility supporters therefore look to make him a natural born citizen under some other definition. Maskell (whom you follow) invented one. With the Fourteenth Amendment doing his heavy lifting (making Obama a born citizen, assuming he was born in the United States), he then puts forth that all born citizens are natural born citizens, a definition which is asinine on its face. Not having any evidence to support your position, you cannot shake off that both you and Maskell arrive at the bogus definition by a hidden fallacious thought process:

All natural born citizens are born citizens.

Obama is a born citizen.

Therefore Obama is a natural born citizen.

So, Slartibartfast, the most you can do is talk a big game, but you surely cannot play one.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Since you seem to think I was being ambiguous and obfuscatory in my earlier comment, let me explain the original intent of my words...

I am confident

As a mathematician and a scientist I try to avoid absolutes---once you decide that something is either absolutely true or absolutely false, you lose the ability to accurately weigh any new evidence. The Pythagorean Theorem is true. What Mario has said on this thread about set theory is false. In legal (as in scientific) matters, there must always be some room for doubt, but as to the meaning of natural born citizen as used in the Constitution and interpreted by the SCOTUS, that room for doubt is exceedingly small. As with the theory of evolution or Newton's laws, it is the next best thing to impossible that a contradictory theory which does a better job of explaining existing evidence and predicting new evidence exists. The theory I'm using is consistent with the entire Constitution as intended by its writers as well as every court ruling (save Scott v. Sandford) from 1776 until the present. On the other hand, your theories need so many epicycles* you can't even keep track of them.

* by "epicycles" I'm referring to corrections needed to make a theory fit the evidence. Epicycles were additional circles added to the orbit of planets to try and correct the geocentric model of the solar system.


that the restriction of the office of Commander-in-Chief

This is just to match the construction used in John Jay's letter---you know, the topic on which you were demanding my response.

to those born a US citizen (as opposed to those gaining their citizenship later in life)

Here I'm defining two classes of "citizens of the US" according to when said citizenship was obtained (at birth or later) to make clear that I believe Justice Jay's only intended to exclude those who received their US citizenship at some point after their birth.

is both the intent of the Framers of the Constitution

In other words, I think that the writers of the Constitution meant to exclude only people who became citizens at some point after their birth from the presidency.

and sufficient to provide the "strong check against the admission of foreigners" that John Jay suggested as well.

Again, I matched the construction from John Jay's letter to George Washington. In this case, I'm also making a point of Jay's actual words "strong check" which you keep construing as "strongest possible check"---something which is fallacious and dishonest.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont.

As for the meaning of "born a citizen", the fact that you need to attach epicycles to the plain meaning of this term speaks eloquently against the merits of your argument, but here's what I believe is consistent with the intent of the Framers: At ratification, the only way to be born a citizen was to be born under US jurisdiction---in other words, only the native born, excluding the children of foreign diplomats, and the children of our own diplomats born overseas were born citizens. Parental citizenship was irrelevant since, in the words of the holding in Wong Kim Ark, "citizenship never descends, in the legal sense, either by the common law or the common naturalization acts". In other words, the law was exactly what would later be codified by the 14th Amendment. This changed when the Naturalization Act of 1790 was enacted, adding to the class of citizens at birth (and explicitly naming them to be natural born citizens). The SCOTUS has ruled (in the quote provided in this thread by Byron aka Unknown) that while the successors of the 1790 act didn't explicitly use the term "natural born", the spirit of the acts were unchanged. Thus anyone born a citizen due to the statutes in effect at that time was still a natural born citizen.

You seem to think that something I said implied that the Framers of Article II were subordinate to the Framers of the 14th Amendment and while nothing I wrote gave that impression, it is certainly true due to the nature of the Amendment process. The most recent part of the Constitution is always given the most authority. That's why we don't have prohibition anymore even though it is mandated by the 18th Amendment---the 21st Amendment came later. In this regard, the 14th Amendment would have superseded the original meaning of "natural born citizen" under the Constitution as originally written had the two differed, but, since it merely codified the definition that already existed, there is no conflict.

John Jay didn't inspire the definition of "natural born citizen" he inspired the eligibility clause. "Natural born" was a legal term that he would have learned when he studied English law and the meaning he intended can only be construed in this context.

As I have said repeatedly, the authors of the 14th Amendment (just like the authors of the original Constitution) intended that all those born on the soil (with the usual exceptions) to be considered natural born. The Congress provided for children born to US citizen parents overseas (at least in some cases) and anyone they made a citizen at birth was also a natural born citizen.

Again, for those born on the soil, it was, as President Madison suggested, unnecessary to consider their parentage at all.

These have been responses to the questions in your comment from June 6th, 5:37pm.


Unknown said...

The child of a alien has never been a NBC you weasel. Is anyone surprised the muslim traitor in chief gave up 5 terrorists for one deserter?

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

The problem with your logic is that one is a natural born citizen if and only if one is born a citizen.

Art,

I'm answering the questions I feel like. If you would like me to answer the rest, all you have to do is prove your US citizenship by showing me your original birth certificate (just like you think President Obama should). Note: certified copies or abstracts are unacceptable and images on the web are right out!

stop drinkin'...

All I'm drinking right now is straight dihydrogen monoxide.

S..., aka Slartibartfast, on June 6, 2014 at 9:04 PM, you said something childish to Mario -

>> "Once again, Mario achieves another stunning "Apuzzo"!


If Mario didn't want people to ridicule him, he should stop being ridiculous.

S..., your immaturity slip is showing.

Well, at least I'm not intellectually dishonest, nor do I bear false witness against the lawful POTUS.

Until you reveal your real name, your childish Saul Alinsky tactic of demeaning your opponent by isolating and marginalizing them, reveals that your are a paid or unpaid "cadre" mind-numbed robot without a soul simply following your manchurian candidate marching orders.

I revealed my real name long ago---or didn't you ever notice how MichaelN called me "Kevin"? I'm sure you can figure it out if you have some minimal experience in searching the web. As for repeatedly suggesting that I (or any Obot) is "cadre", keep it up, it's hilarious. All of our arguments mesh with each other because they reflect an understanding of an underlying consensus---something the birthers will never have.

S..., as I have asked you before on March 28, 2014 at 12:12 PM, "how old are you?"

Forty-five.

_S...fast, how old are you?

Still forty-five.

_S...fast, are you still in college?

No, not since I got my phd in mathematics from Duke University.

_S...fast, are you retired from full-time employment?

No.

_S...fast, are you employed part-time?

No.

_S...fast, are you getting paid by DARPA to shill for and to position, aka to "frame," BHObama as Article II eligible to be POTUS?

Do you have any idea what DARPA does? Or how silly a question like this sounds to people who know what DARPA does? No, I am not now nor have I ever been funded by DARPA. I have, however, been funded by the NIH in the past for research in mathematical biology. A friend of mine at Duke would only do research with military applications (he was a former Ranger), he's probably been funded by DARPA at some point. Does that count?

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

_S...fast, are you an independent contractor "framing" your Article II Section 1 Clause 5 inanity with innuendo, malice and hate?

If you have to assume anyone who disagrees with you has motivations like malice and hate, then you are almost certain to be wrong. I'm simply advocating theories which, given the evidence I've seen, I believe to be correct. The birther presumption of perfidy on the part of anyone who disagrees with them is a key stumbling block to an accurate understanding of the world around them.


S...fast, another word for innuendo is disinformation, the deliberate attempt to misrepresent an idea or a person, and to position, aka “frame,” an idea or a person, either positively or negatively.

Well, it's a good thing I try to avoid misrepresenting anything and correct myself when it turns out that I have. This is in direct contrast to Mario, yourself and most birthers who can't seem to discuss the positions of anyone who disagrees with them without making straw men.

S...fast, your presence on Mario's forum is for a reason, so what is YOUR reason?

It's a blog not a forum (just sayin'...). I suppose it is roughly equal parts a fascination with conspiracy theorists, a desire to engage with birthers and correct their misinformation, amusement for myself and others and as a means of procrastination.

S...fast, your effort here on Mario's forum to position, aka to "frame," BHObama as fulfilling Article II with ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent 'cause the 14th amendment implies that he fulfills the Article II requirement, well, that is inane.

It is not inane to take James Madison at his word when he said that if someone is born in the country we have no need to consider their parentage to determine their citizenship. The SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark said that citizenship doesn't descend (i.e. pass from parent to child) and the Framers of the 14th Amendment themselves said that it merely codifies the law that existed under the Constitution as originally written. At this point, President Obama has been completely vetted and declared eligible by the Constitutionally specified process. Twice. It doesn't really matter what some guy on the internet says---the voters, the Congress, the Chief Justice of the SCOTUS and several courts have all found President Obama to be eligible. Inanity is suggesting that all of them are wrong and you are right.


S...fast, why do you continue with what is obvious inanity?

I gave my reasons above. There isn't a thing I've ever said here which I do not honestly believe is true or which I can't support with reference to appropriate authority.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

S...fast, are you an intellectual supporter of the disinformation implicit in BHObama's carefully nuanced hit job on the U.S. Constitution, “... we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America.”

I know enough to judge President Obama on his actions rather than his campaign slogans. President Obama has governed as a center-right moderate and has not, in any way I can tell, "fundamentally transformed the United States".

S...fast, are you promoting the “hit job” on the U.S. Constitution that started with BHO's obvious obfuscation about his lineage, heritage and nativity and his obvious self-awareness about his lack of Article II Section 1 Clause 5 eligibility authority because he knows that he is NOT a 'natural born Citizen' because he was NOT born on U.S. soil with TWO (2) U.S. Citizen parents who were married to each other before he was conceived or born?

The courts have spoken to say that President Obama is natural born if he was born in Hawai'i. The State of Hawai'i has spoken to say that he was born there. The birthers have spoken to make clear that they do not respect the courts or the Constitutionally guaranteed full faith and credit of the state of Hawai'i. I chose to respect the word of the Judicial Branch and the US Constitution.

S...fast, are you aware that even if BHObama could have claimed his Hawaii neighbor and communist mentor Frank Marshall Davis as his father, BHO would still NOT be a “natural born Citizen” because Frank and Stanley Ann Dunham, alleged to be BHO's mother, would not have been married to each other.

Making baseless insinuations about the president's dead mother (or anyone's mother, dead or alive) without a shred of evidence to back them up is despicable. As James Madison said, once we established that President Obama was born in Hawai'i we had no need to consider his parentage.

S...fast, since you like to traffic in inane hypotheticals that you think add credence to ONLY one (1) U.S. citizen parent and one (1) foreign citizen parent can reproduce a citizen who is a 'natural born Citizen,” what would the “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... Obirthers have done if BHO had claimed Davis as his own father and his alleged mothers mate?

It would not have made a difference to his eligibility for the presidency. Every voter would have gotten to decide for themselves whether it changed their mind about who to vote for. You, however, should be ashamed by the unsupported smears you are making. I guess you don't believe that you shouldn't bear false witness against your neighbor.


cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

S...fast, the Obama Obirthers, aka “shillers,” aka “swindlers” of accuracy and truth, would have shilled for BHO by saying that being “married” was not implied in 1787 America in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, a conclusion which would be as inane as saying that ONLY one (1) U.S. Citizen parent in physical union with a foreign “citizen”
is sufficient to physically produce a child who is ALSO a “citizen” who is a Clause 5 “natural born Citizen.”


The 14th Amendment makes clear that parentage is irrelevant to the citizenship of the native born. All of the parties in Wong Kim Ark understood any native born citizen such as Mr. Wong or President Obama to be eligible for the presidency as a result of the ruling. Neither the SCOTUS or any other court has ever disputed that understanding since.

S...fast, maybe you could read again Logotherapy vs. Logorrhea, posted on March 24, 2014 at 6:08 PM, which briefly explains that logotherapy, the study of meaning, is the foundation of healthy thinking, healthy speaking, healthy writing, and logotherapy is the cure for logorrhea.

Well, as a scientist, I like to evaluate theories on how accurately they predict future events. The Obot theories have proven to accurately predict the behavior of every authority to address the eligibility issue while no birther theory has been shown to make a single accurate prediction. No matter how many or how few words you use, you will never be able to alter those facts. Unfortunately, I know of no cure for those, like yourself, who have embraced their confirmation biases to the exclusion of all evidence to the contrary. I hope some day you will be able to see past your hate for President Obama and realize that, whatever you think of him, he is the legitimate POTUS, but I doubt you will ever break free from your delusions.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of America


Do you really not know how silly that sounds?

ajtelles said...

Dittos to "no conflict"...

S... in part 2 of your comment on June 7, 2014 at 12:40 AM, you wrote this in response "to the questions in your comment from June 6th, 5:37pm" -

>> [...] "In this regard,
>> the 14th Amendment would have superseded the original meaning of "natural born citizen"
>> under the Constitution as originally written had the two differed,
>> but, since it merely codified the definition that already existed, there is no conflict."


S..., there was "no conflict" about which of these scenarios from my questions on June 6, 2014 at 5:37 PM -

S..., the question is simple—were the 14th Amendment "Framers" intending to imply that the original intent of Article II included being born ONLY on U.S. soil and born ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE their child is born?

S..., the question is simple—were the 14th Amendment "Framers" intending to imply that the original intent of Article II included being born on U.S. soil and ALSO foreign soil?

S..., the question is simple—were the 14th Amendment "Framers" intending to imply that the original intent of Article II included being born ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent, married or not married?

S..., as you correctly stated, there was "no conflict" with the 1787 Framers of Article II by the 1868 "Framers" of the 14th Amendment, so which of these 1787 Article II John Jay implications in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" were the 1868 "Framers" of the 14th Amendment affirming?

1a-U.S. soil ONLY?
1b-Foreign soil ALSO?

2a-Two U.S. citizen parents ONLY?
2b-One U.S. citizen parent ALSO?
2c-Zero U.S. citizen parents ALSO?

- - - - - - - - - -

"2b-One"
Yes, Obama-birthers contend that "2b-One U.S. citizen parent" is implied in Article II.

S..., I'll help you in your response. Here are your own words from April 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM, and which I quoted on April 3, 2014 at 11:38 PM -

Now, S...fast, I'm still waitin' and the birds are still happily chirpin' while I'm waitin'... waitin'... waitin'... for a coherent response to my post on March 29, 2014 at 9:50 PM -

>> "That leaves only “theory” 1a to consider."

S...fast, since you've made your Obama Obirther finger-wag, doncha also have substance, at least one teeny tiny sliver of substance, in addition to

>> "and the obot position is that
>> "either native birth OR one citizen parent*
>> "is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both"
>> "* possibly subject to statutory qualifications."

"2c-Zero"
Yes, Obama-birthers contend that "3c-Zero U.S. citizen parents" is implied in Article II Section 1 Clause 5. In fact, Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter said so in a response to me about 2 years ago.

"2a-One"
Yes, “original intent birthers” contend that "2a-TWO U.S. citizen parent" is implied in Article II.

S... and Obama-birthers, what else could John Jay have implied in 1787 America, only four (4) years after the 1783 Treaty of Paris was signed, ending the war with a “foreign” power?

S... and Obama-birthers, what else could John Jay have implied in 1787 America, and until the Cable Act of 1927 America, when the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife and the citizenship of BOTH of the parents determined the citizenship of the child? Until the Cable Act of 1922, husbands and wives did not have different citizenships. Husband and wives were either both U.S. citizens or both aliens, and the children were what their parents were, either citizens or aliens.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

Dick head,

The Virginia citizenship law written by Thomas Jefferson makes the child of aliens born in Virginia a natural born citizen, Lynch v. Clark specifically says that such a child is eligible for the presidency and it is clear that all of the parties to Wong Kim Ark understood that the ruling made him eligible to be president as well. As for individual decisions of the POTUS, the American people decided that President Obama gets to make those calls and your whining wont change that. I would also guess that you have an extreme double standard that you use in judging President Obama's actions vs. those of his predecessors. I would remind you that if you aren't judging a course of action on its merits rather than who proposed or enacted it, then you are indulging in rank hypocrisy.

ajtelles said...

finally...

Mario, S..., aka Slartibartfast, aka "Kevin", finally gave a voluble response.

Let's see, Kevin is a scientist, he likes to drink "dihydrogen monoxide" and play games.

Since I am not a "scientist" I looked it up and found this.
>> http://www.ask.com/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax

Dihydrogen monoxide hoax

The dihydrogen monoxide hoax involves calling water (H2O) by an unfamiliar name, "dihydrogen monoxide", followed by a listing of the real effects of this chemical, often presented as an argument that this substance should be regulated, labeled as hazardous, or banned. The hoax is intended to illustrate how the lack of scientific literacy and an exaggerated analysis can lead to misplaced fears.[1]

"Dihydrogen monoxide", shortened to "DHMO", is a name for water that is consistent with the basic rules of chemical nomenclature,[2] but is not among the names published by IUPAC[2] and is almost exclusively used as a joke or hoax.

A version of the hoax was created by Eric Lechner, Lars Norpchen and Matthew Kaufman, housemates while attending University of California, Santa Cruz in 1989,[3] revised by Craig Jackson (also a UC Santa Cruz student) in 1994,[4] and brought to widespread public attention in 1997 when Nathan Zohner, a 14-year-old student, gathered petitions to ban "DHMO" as the basis of his science project, titled "How Gullible Are We?".[5]

"Dihydrogen monoxide" may sound dangerous to those with a limited knowledge of chemistry or who hold to an ideal of a "chemical-free" life (chemophobia).[5] The only familiar common usage of the term "monoxide" is in the highly toxic gas "carbon monoxide", and the simplified term "monoxide poisoning" is commonly used to refer to poisoning by this colorless and odorless substance.[6]

The joke has been frequently extended over the years. For example, a material safety data sheet—a list of information about potentially dangerous materials used in research and industry—has been created for H2O.[7][8]

Thanks, Kevin, you hoaxer you.

- - - - - - - - - -

PS.

Kevin, your long 4 part response on June 7, 2014 at 4:39 AM indicates that YOU do not like being isolated and marginalized by the truth about John Jay's original intent and his original genesis meaning in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" as ONLY implying ONLY birth on U.S. soil and ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE their child is born.

S.../Kevin, do you REALLY believe in your soul that John Jay, only 4 years after the 1783 Treaty of Paris was signed ending the war of independece with a "foreign" power, that Jay would intend to imply, as some Obama-birthers and some Cruz-birthers contend, that birth could be on U.S. soil OR foreign soil, and that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent was sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS?

Dittos, Kevin, "Do you really not know how silly that sounds?"

Art
The U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

TJ in Texas said...

I have difficulty with the notion that the Congress, under their naturalization powers, and by Naturalization Acts, made new "natural born citizens" from time to time. When the naturalization occurs makes no difference, it is still naturalization. Natural born and naturalized are polar opposites.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...
"The Virginia citizenship law written by Thomas Jefferson makes the child of aliens born in Virginia a natural born citizen"

Where?

It doesn't say "natural born citizen" in there anywhere.

Also, make sure and read the actual statute,
http://books.google.com/books?id=MUIVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA129&dq=virginia+%22that+all+white+persons+born%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_1CTU8euLIWb8gGttoHQDQ&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=virginia%20%22that%20all%20white%20persons%20born%22&f=false
and not the transcription of the bill with the screwed up punctuation.

That "Virginia citizenship law" said that all persons born there and who had resided in the territory of the commonwealth for two years prior to the passage of the act were citizens of the commonwealth. He basically grandfathered in the citizens who had lived there for the two years before the statute passed.

Punctuation matters.
Semicolons matter.

The law later said that immigrants that gave an oath, children whose fathers were citizens, children whose widowed mothers who were citizens, orphan children, and other citizens of the United States were deemed citizens of the commonwealth.

All others were considered aliens.

Unknown said...

(Part one)

Slartibartfast said..."Here I'm defining two classes of "citizens of the US" according to when said citizenship was obtained (at birth or later) to make clear that I believe Justice Jay's only intended to exclude those who received their US citizenship at some point after their birth."

My answer:
A previous draft by Hamilton had the president required to be "born a citizen". That was changed to "natural born Citizen" because of Jay's letter, which emphasized "born" by underlining it. My theory is that Jay's underlining had a specific meaning, and that the adding of "natural" wasn't superfluous.
When Jay was just starting out on his law career, he was bequeathed some law books. It was a small bequest, but it included the complete set of the Reports of Sir Edward Coke. No doubt he became very familiar with their contents over the years.

Here is why I think Jay underlined "born".
From Coke's report on Calvin's case:
"Every Man is either Alienigena, an Alien born, or subditus, a Subject born."
One curious thing about English "subjecthood" is that when someone was naturalized to be an English subject, it was considered to be effective from birth. Therefore, every subject of the King was a "subject born" whether they actually were subjects at birth or not.

Coke continues:
"Every subject is either natus, born, or datus, given or made ..."
I think the previous sentence is why Jay underlined "born". He was differentiating between those who were born subjects and those who were made subjects.

Coke continues to define these born subjects ...
"There be regularly (unless it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born. 1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the King. 2. That the place of his birth be within the King's dominion. And, 3. The time of his birth is chiefly to be considered; for he cannot be a subject born of one kingdom that was born under the ligeance of a King of another kingdom, albeit afterwards one kingdom descend to the King of the other."

(continued)

Unknown said...

(part two)

The phrase "be under the "actual" obedience of the King." can be explained thusly:
Coke continues later:
"2. There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances;
the first is, ligeantia naturalis, absoluta pura, et indefinite, and this originally is due by nature and birth-right, and is called alta (deep, profound, actual) ligeantia, and he that oweth this is called subditus natus (subject born).
The second is called ligeantia acquisita, not by nature but by acquisition or denization, being called a denizen, or rather donaizon, because he is subditus datus (subject made).
The third is, ligeantia localis, wrought by the law; and that is when an alien that is in amity cometh into England, because as long as he is within England, he is within the King's protection; therefore so long as he is here, he oweth unto the King a local obedience or ligeance, for that the one (as it hath been said) draweth the other.
The fourth is a legal obedience, or ligeance which is called legal, because the municipal laws of this realm have prescribed the order and form of it; and this to be done upon oath at the torn of the leet."
The first is actual ligeance/obedience, due by nature and birth-right
The second is acquired ligeance/obedience.
The third is local ligeance/obedience.
The fourth is ligeance/obedience by oath.

So, I think that the meaning of Jay's natural *born* citizen, and the understood meaning of it, was that the person was to have had citizen parents, been born in the country, and at the time of his birth the place he was born had to actually be a part of the United States, and not just a part of it later.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

TJ in Texas,

You are correct. The fact that Congress is making someone through its naturalization powers a citizen tells you that it believes it has to naturalize that person to make that person a citizen. It would not think that if the person was a natural born citizen, who presents no doubts as to his or her citizenship status. So, the thesis that Jack Maskell puts forth and which the Obots push heavily, that all born citizens are natural born citizens, in effect saying that Congress can turn natural born citizens on and off as it pleases despite how the Framers defined a natural born citizen when they adopted the Constitution, is patently absurd.

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

Wilted Rose, dittos to your 2 concluding paragraphs on June 7, 2014 at 2:32 PM

>> The first is actual ligeance/obedience, due by nature and birth-right
>> The second is acquired ligeance/obedience.
>> The third is local ligeance/obedience.
>> The fourth is ligeance/obedience by oath.

>>So,
>> I think that the meaning of Jay's natural *born* citizen,
>> and the understood meaning of it,
>> was that the person was to have had citizen parents,
>> been born in the country,
>> and at the time of his birth
>> the place he was born
>> had to actually be a part of the United States,
>> and not just a part of it later.


- - - - - - - - - -

In response to friends who ask, "and what does THAT mean," I'll just add what I have asked S.../aka Kevin multiple times but to which he never responds clearly -

This is what S.../aka Kevin wrote -

>> "... and the obot position is that
>> either native birth OR one citizen parent
>> is sufficient to make one a natural born citizen, not both"


1a-U.S. soil ONLY?
1b-Foreign soil ALSO?

2a-Two U.S. citizen parents ONLY?
2b-One U.S. citizen parent ALSO?
2c-Zero U.S. citizen parents ALSO?

Obama-birthers, which of the soil and birth questions do you think John Jay would have affirmed? The questions that end with ONLY, or the questions that end with ALSO?

Obama-birthers, what do you thing John Jay was implying in 1787 America when, during the 1700s, the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife and the citizenship of BOTH of the parents determined the citizenship of the child? Until the Cable Act of 1922, husbands and wives did not have different citizenships. Husbands and wives were either both U.S. citizens or both aliens, and the children were what their parents were, either citizens or aliens.

From the 1700s until the 1900s, specifically the 1922 Cable Act, BOTH parents determined the citizenship status of the child.

BOTH parents.

THAT is why John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his July 25, 1787 note to George Washington.

BOTH parents.

The U.S. soil was obviously implicit in the word "born" because the birth has to take place on the soil that is already there and recognized as the national soil of the U.S., NOT foreign soil, and BOTH parents would be ONLY U.S. citizens.

BOTH parents.

The U.S. Congress can NOT produce, aka naturalize, a "natural born Citizen" of the nation.

Only the parents can produce a "natural born Citizen" of the nation.

BOTH parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

TJ,

You may have a problem with it, but the first Congress (you know, the one which included many of the Framers) obviously didn't since they explicitly made new natural born citizens. Since the SCOTUS has never objected, it is a certainty that the Congress retains that power to this day (whether or not they have actually used it). I would suggest that the reason for your incredulity is that you have assumed several falsehoods in your desperation to deny the legitimacy of President Obama. Why do you hate him so?

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

Here's my theory about Jay and Hamilton which has the elegance of simplicity and better explains the facts as we know them.

Not only did Jay write the letter to George Washington, he also discussed the matter in person with his friend and fellow New Yorker Alexander Hamilton. In his proposed draft, Hamilton used the layman's term "born a citizen" rather than the legal term "natural born citizen" used in Jay's letter. In committee, the lay language was changed to its formal counterpart which had exactly the same meaning. If this were a substantive change, we would expect there to be some sort of debate on the issue while if it were merely a stylistic change there would be no reason to discuss it. Since we know that the alteration wasn't discussed, it suggests that the change wasn't very significant.

Like I said, this is a much more elegant and simple explanation, not to mention the fact that it means that the actions or plain words of the following were correct interpretations of the law:

Justice O'Connor
Justice Scalia
Justice Thomas
Chief Justice Roberts
the Heritage Foundation
the Congressional Research Service
over a dozen contemporary courts
the current SCOTUS (in denying cert)
the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark
the SCOTUS in Minor
James Madison
Justice Story
the court in Lynch v. Clark
Thomas Jefferson
Several hundred civics texts
and a myriad of additional court cases throughout our history

To arrive at your conclusion, all of these sources (and more) need to have been either mistaken or dishonest or their plain words must be distorted and spun to an implausible degree. On the other hand, if I'm right then no relevant authorities are contradicted.

Is it any wonder that Art's "Big Bloggers" and "Big Talkers" (who could also be put on the above list) wont touch the birthers with a 10' pole?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You said to TJ:

“You may have a problem with it, but the first Congress (you know, the one which included many of the Framers) obviously didn't since they explicitly made new natural born citizens. Since the SCOTUS has never objected, it is a certainty that the Congress retains that power to this day (whether or not they have actually used it)....”

-----

What a bunch of hogwash. The First Congress did not make any natural born citizens. That is an oxymoron. They only said, while exercising their naturalization powers and doing so through a naturalization act, that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” That is no different than the nation treating all “citizens of the United States” after birth as it treats “citizens of the United States” at birth, except that only the “natural born citizens” among the latter are eligible to be President.

Also, SCOTUS does not go around objecting to what Congress does. Do you think that it is some political body that it just speaks out whenever it does not like what the legislative or executive branches of government are doing?

Finally, your point about what power Congress retains is as asinine as the rest of what you said. Then-Representative James Madison and President George Washington surgically removed “natural born citizen” and replaced it with “citizen of the United States.” Do you believe they did that just because they just did not have anything else to do to occupy their time? Congress to this day has never again used “natural born citizen” in any of its naturalization acts. So what do you know about what power Congress retained?

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Sorry, I should have said "SCOTUS never overturned the law. You may not be aware of this, but the Supreme Court has the power to rule acts of Congress unConstitutional.

You also seem to have lost a comment of mine (regarding John Jay and Alexander Hamilton. Just so you know, when you start moderating my comments I will consider that an admission of defeat on your part and cease my participation here, so if you want to make it plain that you can't handle my arguments (like you've already made clear you can't win an argument---or should I say you can't claim an "Apuzzo"---without misrepresenting my position and obfuscating your own), just keep it up.

Art,

Just in case I'm not around here much longer, a couple of things:

1. You need to get a sense of humor. Seriously. (pun intended)

2. My position (and that of the Judicial Branch) is that "natural born citizen" = "born a citizen". All your attempts to put words in my mouth are nothing more than ways to obfuscate that simple statement.

3. What do you hope to accomplish by your blind devotion to Mario's crank theories? Those theories will never win a court case (and could well get their exponents sanctioned as Mario narrowly avoided), they will never sway public opinion and they will never effect the historical view of President Obama's legitimacy. What do you think you are going to get out of it?

4. At some point you need to accept that you have lost. Try as you might to smear President Obama with baseless allegations, you have nothing to show for it but a history of bearing false witness and a desperate hold on your impotent prejudice against the lawful POTUS. Not to mention the alienation of friends and family if you are like most birthers. If you really care about politics, start working to get the candidate of your choice elected in 2016. If you really care about the Constitutional issue, then start laying the groundwork for ballot challenges against Rafael Cruz, Piyush Jindal or Marco Rubio. If all you do is keep whining about President Obama being an evil usurper then the only thing you will get is older and more hateful.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

I of III

I have for years been arguing with the Obots over the meaning of Jefferson’s 1779 citizenship law. They argue that it proves that the Framers accepted jus soli citizenship. I have maintained that it proves that they rejected jus soli and accepted jus sanguinis.

Here is the pertinent text of the law.

An Act Declaring Who Shall Be Deemed Citizens of This Commonwealth:

BE it enacted by the General Assembly, That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act; and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same, other than alien enemies, and shall before any court of record, give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation that they intend to reside therein; and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth; and all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father if living, or otherwise their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother, shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed; and all others not being citizens of any the United States of America shall be deemed aliens…. And in order to preserve to the citizens of this commonwealth that natural right which all men have of relinquishing the country in which birth or other accident may have thrown them, and seeking subsistence and happiness wheresoever they may be able, or may hope to find them; And to declare unequivocally what circumstances shall be deemed evidence of an intention in any citizen to exercise that right, It is enacted and declared That whensoever any citizen of this commonwealth, shall by word of mouth …openly declare to the same court, that he relinquishes the character of a citizen,…such person shall be considered as having exercised his natural right of expatriating himself, and shall be deemed no citizen of this commonwealth from the time of his departure. The free white inhabitants of every of the states, parties to the American confederation, paupers, vagabonds and fugitives from justice excepted, shall be entitled to all rights, privileges, and immunities of free citizens in this commonwealth, and shall have free egress, and regress, to and from the same, and shall enjoy therein, all the privileges of trade, and commerce, subject to the same duties, impositions and restrictions as the citizens of this commonwealth….

Revised Bills of 1779, chap. LV. p. 41.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ttUTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA129&dq=%22all+infants+wheresoever+born%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k6qTU6ioK_SssASm2YDADA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22all%20infants%20wheresoever%20born%22&f=false

As you recommended, I cleaned up all the punctuation and spelling errors.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

The Obots (of course including Slartibartfast) argue that the law clearly says that “all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth … shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed.” I have told them that the act only grandfathered “all white persons” (adults and minors in being) who were born in the commonwealth of Virginia “before the passing of the act.” So under this grandfathering, an alien could beget a citizen, provided that child was born in Virginia prior to the statute going into effect. I have also told them that the language covering “all infants wheresoever born” then trumped any other adults not so grandfathered. In other words, if any white person was born in Virginia before the passing of the act, that person was deemed a citizen of Virginia. But if any person was born after the passage of the Act, then that person being part of the “infants wheresoever born” had to be born to a father, if alive, or a mother, if the father was dead, who was a citizen at the time of the infant’s birth. I explained that “wheresoever born” included the commonwealth of Virginia. As further proof of the correctness of my position, I explained that Jefferson did not require that infants be “white persons” because they had to be children of citizen fathers, if alive, or citizen mother, if the fathers were dead, who had to be “white persons” in order to be citizens. You will also note how Jefferson got his ideas about expatriation right out of Vattel’s The Law of Nations, Sections 220 to 233. Hence, what else do you think he got there? Yes, the definition of a “natural born citizen.”

I also told them that Jefferson’s scheme became the basis of Congress’s early naturalization acts (1790, 1795, and 1802) and that it all proves that a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The Obots respond by saying that I do not know how to read English.

By the way, there are other Founders who subscribed to the “son of a citizen” basis of citizenship. Consider these:

We have Supreme Court Justice, James Wilson, signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, tell us in 1791:

“English law has its roots in Anglo-Saxon customs, which were too firmly established to be completely broken by the Norman Conquest and still form the basis of their common law today. In 1068, having at last reduced the country to submission, William set to work to establish a Roman government on a firm and lasting basis. Roman law, the legal system of ancient Rome is now the basis of civil law, one of the main European legal systems.

***

I know that the term citizen is often applied to one of the more numerous party—to one of the people: and I shall be obliged to take the description of a citizen from the character which he supports as one of the people. But you will easily perceive, that the same person may, at different times, act or be viewed in different characters; and though his description be taken from one of them, the account of his duties and of his rights too may, on a particular occasion, be referred to the other. This I have chosen to do, rather than to introduce an unknown phrase, or to use a known phrase in a new signification. Besides, the expression is frequently employed also in the sense in which I now use it. “Generally speaking,” says the great political authority, Aristotle, “a citizen is one partaking equally of power and of subordination.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

A citizen then—to draw his description as one of the people—I deem him, who acts a personal or a represented part in the legislation of his country. He has other rights; but his legislative I consider as his characteristic right. In this view, a citizen of the United States is he, who is a citizen of at least some one state in the Union: for the members of the house of representatives in the national legislature are chosen, in each state, by electors, who, in that state, have the qualifications requisite for electors of the most numerous branch of the state legislature. In this view, a citizen of Pennsylvania is he, who has resided in the state two years; and, within that time, has paid a state or county tax: or he is between the ages of twenty one and twenty two years, and the son of a citizen.

***

You will be pleased to hear, that, with regard to this as well as to many other subjects, we have renewed, in our governments, the principles and the practice of the ancient Saxons.”

And later, we learn that by Secretary of States Monroe’s letter of November 27, 1811 to Joel Barlow, Esq. that the James McClure citizenship matter also involved Representative Cheves and U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson. This is how Cheves, who became Speaker of the House of Representatives, defined a “natural born citizen” before the House of Representatives in 1814:

“The children have a natural attachment to the society in which they are born: being obliged to acknowledge the protection it has granted to their fathers, they are obliged to it in a great measure for their birth and education. … We have just observed that they have a right to enter into the society of which their fathers were members. But every man born free, the son of a citizen, arrived at years of discretion, may examine whether it be convenient for him to join in the society for which he was destined by his birth.”

Speech of Rep. Langdon Cheves, in the House of Representative in 1814, reported in The Historical Register of the United States, Vol 3, Part 1, Sec. 7, p. 174 (Philadelphia 1814), accessed at http://books.google.com/books?id=6qC1NICFYR0C&pg=PA174&dq=%22children+have+a+natural+attachment%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cvtoT-PyEuiB0QHiscmLCQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=children%20have%20a%20natural%20attachment&f=false. (citing and quoting Vattel, Book 1, Chapter 19, Sec. 220).

It can be readily seen that Cheves borrowed his ideas from Vattel, The Law of Nations. This was the Speaker of the House who in 1814 adopted Vattel’s law of nation’s definition of a “natural-born citizen” and not the English common law’s definition of a “natural born subject.”

Also, the James Madison Administration in the 1811 James McClure citizenship case, interpreting and applying the Naturalization Act of 1802, required that after July 4, 1776, in order for a child born in the United States to be a citizen, he or she had to be born to citizen parents. See my writing at this blog on this case and the famous Publius quote.

As we can see, the Obots are toast but simply do not want to admit it and whine that we should just leave them and Obama alone.

ajtelles said...

pinata time—implicit facts v implicit theories...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., aka Kevin, on June 7, 2014 at 6:33 PM you had an excellent exposition of a theory for Wilted Rose.

As usual, Wilted Rose will have a pertinent response, but I have 3 short fact v theory questions for you.

- - - - - - - - - -

1-Was it fact about national security or theory about national security that compelled original birther John Jay to send a note to his friend original birther George Washington and which Washington personally, as president of the 1787 Constitutional Convention, brought to the attention of the Convention original birthers, the original delegates?

2-Was it a fact or a theory that John Jay was concerned about when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" that was inserted into Article II at the Constitutional Convention, AFTER it was discussed by the original birthers, the original delegates, the original Framers?

3-Was it a fact or a theory that prompted the original birthers to accept John Jay's "natural born Citizen" suggestion and not ever consider Alexander Hamilton's "born a Citizen" language?

S..., you concluded with this -

>> "Is it any wonder that Art's >> "Big Bloggers" and "Big Talkers"
>> (who could also be put on the above list)
>> wont touch the birthers with a 10' pole?"


S..., I agree with you, "is it any wonder" is a wonder. it is ok as a general statement, but not relevant to the mindset of the BIG Talkers and the BIG Bloggers. However, since the BIG Talkers and the BIG Bloggers are my ideological friends, I will clarify the "wonder" of their ostrich head-in-the-sand silence.

ALL of the BIG Talkers and the BIG Bloggers are a historical disappointment in their shallow thinking about Article II Section 1 Clause 5, even those who are adamant that Article V is original intent relevant in 2014 as a way to correct the political and economic idiocy of the Obama administration of OUR "WE the Posterity" of "WE the People" government.

Does that clarify for you the "wonder" about their silence? They are shallow-thinker deliberately under-informed by their shallow-thinker choice.

So, S..., when are YOU going to speak the "truth to power" about the idiocy of the Obama administration?

You know, the political and economic stupidities.

You know, the national security foolishness that Obama says he didn't know about until he heard about them on the lame stream news?

- - - - - - - - - -

S..., aka Kevin, are you the only denizen of Kevin's ObamaConspiracy site who knows how to write? Doesn't anybody else there, or on Foggy Fobow's site or Cafe con Leche know how to point-counterpoint with historical, uh, inaccuracies?

S..., aka Kevin, you're an excellent and kinda-friendly pinata since you stopped your hate language, but variety would be nice. Right?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

How many ways are your arguments screwed up? Let me count the ways . . .

You try to convince us of your position by appealing to authority (argumentum ad verecundiam). You tell us about the decisions of some lower courts. But you do not share with us the logic or evidence that supports the decision of those courts. The history of positions that we once considered authoritative is riddled with error. Simply because a court makes a decision does not necessarily mean the decision is correct. Even a court will not accept the word of a so-called expert if the expert does not accompany his or her opinion with facts and reason. A court should not expect any less from its own opinions and nor should the public.

Now you attempt to blind us with science, another fallacy. Do you think that informed people are stupid enough to believe you just because you tell us that you are a scientist and use scientific-sounding language? Surrounding your meritless theories with scientific jargon without more means nothing. You arguments still fail on their merits.

And how could I forget how you quote James Madison out of context when you try to pawn off his quote from the 1789 Ramsay-Smith congressional debate as proof that he defined a natural born citizen as merely born in the country.

You also cannot read what is plainly written in Thomas Jefferson’s citizenship laws of 1779.

Or how about how you read into the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark’s holding “natural born citizen” when it is nowhere there to be found.

I also just love your fallacy that Obama must be a natural born citizen because people voted for him, Congress approved it, the Chief Justice swore him in, and he will stay in office for 3 more years.

Now you are on a new kick. You try to prove our argument on the definition of a natural born citizen to be wrong by saying that we hate Obama. You really are a real piece of work!

There are so many more fallacies in your arguments, but I will leave it at this for now.

I guess after having your rear end handed to you here you will soon announce that you will be moving on because you are just so busy with so many important things in life.

P.S. Before the door hits you in the ass (arse), don’t forget to look up the difference between a subset and a proper subset.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...
"Not only did Jay write the letter to George Washington, he also discussed the matter in person with his friend and fellow New Yorker Alexander Hamilton. In his proposed draft, Hamilton used the layman's term "born a citizen" rather than the legal term "natural born citizen" used in Jay's letter. In committee, the lay language was changed to its formal counterpart which had exactly the same meaning. If this were a substantive change, we would expect there to be some sort of debate on the issue while if it were merely a stylistic change there would be no reason to discuss it. Since we know that the alteration wasn't discussed, it suggests that the change wasn't very significant."

My Answer:
It really isn’t very hard. In 1787, a bunch of Englishmen met in Philadelphia to discuss formation of a new government. The most important ones were English lawyers educated on Coke and Blackstone.
This bunch of lawyers were concerned about foreign influence in their new government, and were trying to keep the presidency safe from foreign takeover. They didn't want foreigners anywhere in the gov. and taking things over.
This bunch of English Lawyers could probably recite Coke's Reports in their sleep. They were all bright fellows, and knew exactly what was meant when "natural born citizen" was spoken with the emphasis on the "born".
They didn't need to discuss it because they were all English Lawyers and knew exactly what it meant.

How do you know the change wasn't discussed?
If you can posit a face to face discussion between Jay and Hamilton, I can posit informal conversations between all of these English Lawyers who, being familiar with Coke, understood Jay's meaning like you understand that to "burn a CD" doesn't mean to set one on fire.

Unknown said...

Oh, Slartibartfast,

A listing of "Authorities" has no meaning without quotes or some kind of citation that supports your position.

TJ in Texas said...

Slartibartfast,

I was polite and respectful, and you attacked me for no reason.
I did nothing to raise your ire,except possibly express a truth that disturbs you.

I am trying to learn about the meaning of the phrase "natural born citizen. The fact that I chose this place to express my puzzlement seems to bother you, and apparently makes you assert some unfounded and untrue assumptions about me.

In Texas tradition, when someone is a bully, we kick their butt until they apologize.

I don't think you are worth the effort, but I will say this:

You have been a rude, combative stack of bloviating bovine excrement, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

When someone addresses you respectfully, you show them respect in return. The attack you made on me was totally uncalled for.

I consider us even now, and I hope I never have the pleasure of corresponding with you again.

Unknown said...

Sfest, mario has schooled you before on lynch v clark. Barry the lying muslim loving cockroach wont be removed from office over being ineligible but he might lose his job because he ignores laws and is a serial liar and coverup artist.

Unknown said...

To TJ in Texas:

I'm proud of you, boy.

ajtelles said...

"Full American Citizenship for Naturalized Citizens"...

1/

Mario, first, a thanks to Wilted Rose for the June 5, 2014 at 2:00 AM info about Mary Brigid McManamon, author of the June 2, 2014 research paper, The Natural Born Citizen Clause as Originally Understood, from the Widener University School of Law. Also, thanks for Carlyle's comment that inspired this long post of mine.

Carlyle wrote, "Had the question of the definition of NBC been seriously addressed in a neutral, stress-free, context - there would be much less pounding of square pegs into round holes!"

The free pdf research paper by McManamon can be downloaded here -
>> http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2444766

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario and Wilted Rose, after reading the entire research paper by Mary McManamon, I have two brief observations. As you wrote Wilted Rose, "She makes some mistakes, but at least she's starting to point in the right direction. It beats the heck out of the dreck that is already out there."

Yes, she is headed in the right direction, although if she had read Mario's blog in addition to Michael Dorf's blog, she would not be as ambiguous as she is is some of the ways she phrases some conclusions. If she had been reading Mario's "Natural Born Citizen" blog, she would not have "uncertain sound." Instead she would have, as does Mario, "original intent" clarity.

- - - - - - - - - -

Observation #1 -

First, Mary McManamon is apparently not aware of your "Natural Born Citizen" blog, Mario, start date of December 20, 2008, with many nbC articles and comments, although she is aware of Michael Dorf's 2008 blog with a few comments about his one original intent article which she adduced titled Originalism Versus Straight Talk, Feb. 29, 2008 -

>> http://www.dorfonlaw.org/2008_02_01_archive.html.

Mary McManamon's quote below is from footnote #5.

>> The author’s [Michael Dorf's] idea was as follows:

>> "The best reading–although not necessarily the original understanding–would be to say that anybody who was a citizen at birth (whether because born in the U.S. or because born to U.S. parents overseas), should qualify as ‘natural born.’”


[Compared to Mario Apuzzo's original intent ("original understanding") clarity, Michael Dorf's "should qualify" comment is ambiguous]

ajtelles said...

"Full American Citizenship for Naturalized Citizens"...

2/

Observation #2 -

In footnoate #61, John Yinger's 2000 article is adduced, The Origins and Interpretation of the Presidential Eligibility Clause in the U.S. Constitution: Why Did the Founding Fathers Want the President To Be a “Natural Born Citizen” and What Does this Clause Mean for Foreign-Born Adoptees?

>> http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/jyinger/citizenship/history.htm

While the article reads very well and is very informative, for example concerning John Jay, in his conclusion Yinger wrote this, updated April 6, 2000 -

>> "Conclusion: Implications for Foreign-Born Adoptees

>> The adoption of foreign-born children was unheard of in 1787, and it is inconceivable that the Founding Fathers considered such adoptees when they wrote the presidential eligibility clause. Nevertheless, it is instructive to explore the implications of this clause for the eligibility of foreign-born adoptees to be President."

And if you look at the Citizenship page -
>> http://faculty.maxwell.syr.edu/jyinger/citizenship/index.html

this is Yinger's intent -

>> "Foreign-born adoptees who are naturalized as American citizens when they are babies or young children have all the rights of American citizenship -- except for one right of great symbolic importance: They are not eligible to be President of the United States. This page of my web site is dedicated to correcting this unfair situation, that is, to obtaining full American citizenship for foreign-born adoptees and other naturalized citizens. If you want to help with this campaign or have comments on it, please send me an e-mail at jyinger@maxwell.syr.edu." [bold emphasis added]

>> "THE PROPOSED CONSTITUTIONAL ADMENDMENT:

>> "Replace the first part of the Presidential eligibility clause in the Constitution with the following:

>> "No person except one who has been a citizen of the United States for at least thirty-five years shall be eligible to the office of President;"

ajtelles said...

"Full American Citizenship for Naturalized Citizens"...

3/

Mario, maybe it's time to propose an original intent amendment to help clarify the original intent of John Jay and remove the ambiguity surrounding "natural born Citizen" in Article II.

Article II and Article V are original intent inseparable. Although my preference is to start with repealing the 17th Amendment and returning the election of U.S. Senators BACK to the state legislatures, maybe amending Article II Section 1 Clause 5 would be an excellent way to get the American electorate educaded about the eternal relevance of Article II and protecting access to the office of president and command of the military, just as John Jay said in his prescient suggestion to George Washington. The foolishness of BHObama concerning the trade of Bergdhal for the 5 Islamic true-believer killers is a "crisis" that is just waiting to be used to political advantage by "WE the Posterity" of "WE the People." To paraphrase Rham Emmanuel, this is an Obama "crisis" that should NOT be wasted.

After reading Mary Brigid McManamon's research paper and John Yinger's intent for an Article II amendment, maybe it's time for "original intent birthers," aka defenders of original intent who do NOT want to amend the original intent of the original Framers, to propose their own Article V amendment to adhere to the original intent of the original birthers, the original Framers, specifically the original intent of John Jay in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washington, with the 1787 implicit presupposition of being born ONLY on U.S. soil, with the concomitant 1787 implicit presupposition of being born ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents who are married to each other BEFORE their child is born on U.S. soil (and jurisdictions).

Although it is cumbersome, below is John Greschak's draft amendment in his 2008 article titled, What is a Natural Born Citizen of the United States?

>> http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm

>> "As I have shown here, the definition of the phrase natural born Citizen of the United States that I have put forward in this essay is a relatively direct consequence of American English and the essential nature of the United States, including the United States Constitution.

>> Still, I believe it would be beneficial to have the phrases native born Citizen of the United States and natural born Citizen of the United States defined explicitly in the Constitution in a new amendment (the Natural Born Citizen Amendment).

>> Also, the fact that one must be domiciled in the United States, to be considered a Citizen of the United States, could be stated there, as well.

>>Here is a draft for such an amendment:

>> "Proposed Natural Born Citizen Amendment to the United States Constitution.

>> "No person shall be a Citizen of the United States who is not domiciled, either by choice or dependency, in the United States. A native born Citizen of the United States is a person who was born in the United States, and has been, since birth, a Citizen of the United States. A natural born Citizen of the United States is a native born Citizen of the United States, born exclusively of Citizens of the United States. A naturalized Citizen of the United States is a Citizen of the United States who is not a natural born Citizen of the United States."

ajtelles said...

"Full American Citizenship for Naturalized Citizens"...

4/

Mario, as I have mentioned from time to time, maybe it is time for defenders of the 1787 "original intent birthers," aka the 1787 original intent Founders, the 1787 original intent Framers, the 1787 original intent Ratifiers, and ultimately, the 1787 original intent Implementers, to unite discussion about John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 with discussion about the grassroots "citizens" authority, aka, "WE the People" authority, to tell our state legislatures to exercise their constitutional authority in Article V to call for "...a Convention for proposing Amendments."

Here is my grass roots draft to remove the ambiguity about the eternal relevance and the perpetual original intent and perpetual original genesis meaning of a "natural born Citizen" as the ONLY U.S. "citizen" eligible to be POTUS since the last "...or a Citizen of the United States" died sometime in the 1800s -

Amendment XXVIII (or which ever amendment it will be at the time)
An Amendment to Permit Only a Natural Born Citizen to be Eligible to the Office of President

SECTION 1: No person, except a natural born Citizen, male or female, born only on U.S. soil or jurisdiction, born only to two U.S. citizen parents who are citizens by birth or by naturalization before their child is born, married only to each other, shall be eligible to the office of President.

SECTION 2: To be eligible, a person must be thirty-five years of age, residence during the last fifteen years must be only within the United States, not in jurisdictions.

SECTION 3: Verification of eligibility must include birth place, lineage, residence; verification must be published and made available to the American grass roots electorate, to all of the state legislatures, to all of the Electoral College electors.

If that proposed Amendment XXVIII language does not get defenders of the Obama birth narrative sqwakin' like a chicken with it's head cut off, uh, I mean, if it does not represent John Jay's implicit "original intent" with his implicit "original genesis" meaning of birth ONLY on U.S. soil and birth ONLY to two U.S. citizen parents, what was Jay's perpetual original intent? Do the "anti-original-intent-birthers-and-eligibility-truthers,", Obama-birthers, Cruz-birthers, Rubio-birthers, Jindal-birthers, Haley-birthers, or whomever the next "MY GUY birther" might be, who seem to not be concerned about original intent, know what John Jay's original intent was in underlining "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his July 25, 1787 note to George Washington?

Was Jay's perpetual original intent ONLY birth on U.S. soil to TWO U.S. citizen parents?
_[X] yes [ ] no

Was Jay's perpetual original intent ALSO birth on U.S. soil to TWO U.S. citizen parents?
_[ ] yes [X] no ("ALSO" no—"ONLY" yes)
Was Jay's perpetual original intent ALSO birth on U.S. soil to one U.S. citizen parent?
_[ ] yes [X] no
Was Jay's perpetual original intent ALSO birth on U.S. soil to zero U.S. citizen parents?
_[ ] yes [X] no

Was Jay's perpetual original intent ALSO birth on foreign soil to two U.S. citizen parents?
_[ ] yes [X] no
Was Jay's perpetual original intent ALSO birth on foreign soil to one U.S. citizen parent?
_[ ] yes [X] no
Was Jay's perpetual original intent ALSO birth on foreign soil to zero U.S. citizen parents?
_[ ] yes [X] no

ajtelles said...

"Full American Citizenship for Naturalized Citizens"...

5/

1a-U.S. soil ONLY?
1b-Foreign soil ALSO?

2a-Two U.S. citizen parents ONLY?
2b-One U.S. citizen parent ALSO?
2c-Zero U.S. citizen parents ALSO?

Which of the soil and birth questions would John Jay have affirmed? The questions that end with ONLY, or the questions that end with ALSO, or, as some Obama-birthers have opined, all?

What was John Jay implying in 1787 America when, during the 1700s, the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife and the citizenship of BOTH of the parents determined the citizenship of the child? Until the Cable Act of 1922, husbands and wives did not have different citizenships. Husbands and wives were either both U.S. citizens or both aliens, and the children were what their parents were, either citizens or aliens.

From the 1700s until the 1900s, specifically the 1922 Cable Act, BOTH parents determined the citizenship status of the child. Both parents, either U.S. citizens OR foreign citizens, aliens..

BOTH parents.

THAT is the 21st century common sense conclusion as to why John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his July 25, 1787 note to George Washington, and which the Convention delegates accepted, including the "Father of the Constitution" and author of the Bill of Rights, Founder, Framer and Ratifier, James Madison.

BOTH parents.

The U.S. soil was obviously implicit in the word "born" because the birth has to take place on the soil that is already there and recognized as the national soil of the U.S., NOT foreign soil, and BOTH parents would be ONLY U.S. citizens.

BOTH parents.

The entire U.S. Congress can NOT produce a "natural born Citizen" of the nation by positive law naturalization acts.

Only TWO parents can produce a "natural born Citizen" of the nation by natural law, uh, acts of congress.

BOTH parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Ray said...

Regarding the 1779 Virginia citizenship statute, take note of the semicolons and the meaning is apparent.

"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act, and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same;

and shall before any court of record give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation, that they intend to reside therein, and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;

and all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise, whose mother was, a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father, if living, or otherwise their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother, shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth, until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed;

And all others not being citizens of any the United States of America, shall be deemed aliens."

The first clause specifies: 1) all white persons born in Virginia, 2) all who have resided in Virginia for two years prior to this act, 3) all who thereafter immigrate to Virginia

The second clause requires that all person identified by the first clause swear an oath.

The third clause specifies that the citizenship of children follows that of the father or if dead the mother, and that orphans are citizens.

The fourth clause specifies that all others who are not a citizen of any of the United States, are aliens.

Unknown said...

Ray,

The transcription of the Bill here:
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a4_2_1s4.html
is incorrect. The punctuation has been changed.

Please look at the actual bill, the source material, printed in 1822, in "The Statutes at Large;: Being a Collection of All the Laws of Virginia."
Revised Bills of 1779, chap. LV. p. 41.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ttUTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA129&dq=%22all+infants+wheresoever+born%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k6qTU6ioK_SssASm2YDADA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22all%20infants%20wheresoever%20born%22&f=false

That link will take you directly to the pertinent page.

And, yes, take note of the semicolons and the meaning is apparent.

Whenever possible, always go to the source material.

Anonymous said...

The Desperation of Dr. Communist, who wrote to Art:

2. My position (and that of the Judicial Branch) is that "natural born citizen" = "born a citizen".

Translation: I and my "fellow travelers" on the Marxist path denounce the use of the word "natural" as being unnatural in the eligibility clause. It is redundant and superfluous, showing that the founders & framers were much more stupid than I am.

I base my reasoning on the meaning of "natural-born subject" as used in the common law, even though its meaning included ALL subjects, including naturalized.

I am above acknowledging the self-contradiction in the foundation of what "we" (the consensus establishment) believe. I do not have to explain it. YOU simply have to accept it as "reasonable" and true.

"Mario's crank theories...will never win a court case; What do you think you are going to get out of it?"

Translation: If two candidates for town treasurer are tied in votes, and they decide to settle it with a game of poker, and one of them is winning by cheating; why would you not back the winner for town treasurer?
After all, he "drew" the most winning hands? Why stick with the candidate who lost while playing honestly? Just accept his loss and give the job to the winner (i.e., the cheater).

"At some point you need to accept that you have lost."

Translation: Since the powers-that-be, all of them, are cowards, or accomplices, and have rigged the system on behalf of a candidate guilty of treason against the Constitution, you therefore need to "accept" that having the truth on your side is essentially meaningless and even worthless.
cont...

Anonymous said...

The Desperation of Dr.Communist pt.2

"Try as you might to smear President Obama with baseless allegations,"

Kevin's brain slipped a gear with the accusation of this blog being focused on the counterfeit birth certificate, -justifying the "allegation" of criminal fraud, and election fraud to go along with constitutional fraud.

"...you have nothing to show for it but a history of bearing false witness"
Translation: I've just accused you of swearing before a judge and jury to things that you know to be false (as forbidden by one of the Ten Commandments), namely that Obama finessed the production of a fake Hawaiian birth certificate because HDoH never issued him one.

So basically, you are a liar and a deceiver and a criminal and immoral. That's all. Now don't you just want to repent and beg your lord and savior Barackula to forgive you?

"... and a desperate hold on your impotent prejudice against the lawful POTUS.

Translation: Prejudice of all kind is bad. It is bad of the Jews to be prejudiced against Adolph Hitler and their Nazi exterminators.
And by the authority invested in me, Dr. Communist, I officially declare that under my perverted version of law, Obumer is the LAWFUL POTUS. Yeah, I said it so it must be so.

"Not to mention the alienation of friends and family if you are like most birthers."

Translation: In desperation, I'll toss in every conceivable psychological lever I can think of to dump a huge guilt trip and emotional burden on you to convince you that, right or wrong, you should only care about outcome. The ends justify the means.
Ignore Truth. What has it ever done for you? Come on over to the Dark Side. It's great being on the cusp of the first American Socialist Empire.

" If you really care about politics, start working to get the candidate of your choice elected in 2016."

Translation: I say "if" because this is just an insincere diversion for you, -something that you don't "really care about". So why not just drop it? Ok? Pleeeease! Do something else; anything else.

"If all you do is keep whining about President Obama being an evil usurper then the only thing you will get is older and more hateful."

Translation: All of the founders should have followed that advice regarding King George III and his Parliament, then they would have ended up older and enslaved, instead of becoming "older and more hateful", to the point of demolishing the entire British-American relationship.

Hate is bad. Pleeeease stop hating the criminal in the White House! You are a lighthouse beacon that needs to be turned off. We, the subversive Progressive establishment, do NOT want anyone finding their way to the light of Truth. So just shut it down already! We WON! We are the Champions! It doesn't matter how we won so stop pointing out the Truth about the Lance Armstrong presidency of our Dear Leader, Barackula Obominus (aka; BAIR-ek o-BAM-a, a fraud through-and-through)
a.r.nash

Anonymous said...

Art wrote:
1a-U.S. soil ONLY?
1b-Foreign soil ALSO?

2a-Two U.S. citizen parents ONLY?
2b-One U.S. citizen parent ALSO?
2c-Zero U.S. citizen parents ALSO?

You included the three possibilities for #2 but avoided including the third possibility for #1. You want it to remain out of sight, out of mind, but it is neither no matter how hell-bent you are on burying it.

1c. Neither foreign soil nor U.S. soil are relevant. Only blood, not borders.

And btw, American women who married foreign men did not lawfully lose their citizenship until the Nat. Act of 1907. Before that, it was a policy issue that depended on the Attorney General at the time.

"The U.S. soil was obviously implicit in the word "born" because the birth has to take place on the soil that is already there and recognized as the national soil of the U.S., NOT foreign soil,"

You logic is obviously distorted, and illogical. "Born" is not in reference to an event nor the location of such a event. It is in reference to one thing only; the political character with which one was conceived and formed into a living human being.

The word "born" is necessary as a contrast to its opposite, which is how one was "made", (-not formed, nor born) -that being one who was a citizen "made" via naturalization.

Why can't you comprehend the dichotomy between a born citizen and a made citizen, a natural citizen and a legal citizen?

The contrast is not between location of birth (U.S. vs foreign) but between Natural vs Legal, -natural citizenship vs government-sanctioned citizenship.

I know that you are programmed to reject anything that renders your hallow American soil immaterial, so I won't expect any refutation of a factual and logical order.

Self-validating statements such as "obviously the implication is..." are only "obvious" from the point of view of the bias of he who makes them. Logic sees that there is no such implication.

ajtelles said...

In the weeds—again...

h2ooflife, aka h2o, on June 9, 2014 at 1:01 PM you partially accurately quoted me but you missed the point--again, by leaving out the purpose of the 1a and 2a questions.

>> "Art wrote:

>> 1a-U.S. soil ONLY?
>> 1b-Foreign soil ALSO?

>> 2a-Two U.S. citizen parents ONLY?
>> 2b-One U.S. citizen parent ALSO?
>> 2c-Zero U.S. citizen parents ALSO?

>> "You included the three possibilities for #2
>> but avoided including the third possibility for #1.


[...]

>> 1c. Neither foreign soil nor U.S. soil are relevant.
>> Only blood, not borders.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

h2o, this is the point, repeated from my 5 part comment on June 8, 2014 at 4:20 PM with emendations and bold emphases -

>> Which of the soil and birth questions would John Jay have affirmed?

>> The questions that end with ONLY, or the questions that end with ALSO, or, as some Obama-birthers have opined, all?

>> What was John Jay implying in 1787 America when,
>> during the 1700s,
>> the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife
>> and the citizenship of BOTH of the parents
>> determined the citizenship of the child?

>> Until the Cable Act of 1922, husbands and wives did not have different citizenships.
>> Husbands and wives were either BOTH U.S. citizens or BOTH aliens,
>> and the children were what their parents were,
>> either citizens or aliens.

>> From the 1700s until the 1900s,
>> specifically the 1922 Cable Act,
>> BOTH parents determined the citizenship status of the child.
>> Both parents, either U.S. citizens OR foreign citizens, aliens..
>> BOTH parents.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

h2o, John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washingtion only 4 years after the 1784 Treaty of Paris was signed ending the war of independence with a "foreign" power, England.

h2o, John Jay was definitely implying birth ONLY on U.S. soil, NOT foreign soil.

h2o, John Jay was definitely implying birth ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE their child is born.

h20, the issue is not blood OR borders.
h2o, the issue is "a" birth has to take place "somewhere" on earth.
h2o, the issue is "a" birth has to be to TWO persons.
h2o, the issue is "a" birth has be to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

h2o, THAT is what John Jay was implying.

h2o, the issue is that "somewhere" is simply a reference to either U.S. soul or foreign soil, not blood or borders.

Again, you have gone off on a tangent "somewhere" where there is no there there.

h2o, you accurately quoted my logical and rational comment -

>> "The U.S. soil was obviously implicit in the word "born"
>> because the birth has to take place on the soil
>> that is already there
>> and recognized as the national soil
>> of the U.S.,
>> NOT foreign soil,"

H2o, to quote your words back at you -
>> "You[r] logic is obviously distorted, and illogical."


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Jefferson’s 1779 citizenship law with proper punctuation:

An Act Declaring Who Shall Be Deemed Citizens of This Commonwealth:

Be it enacted by the General Assembly:

That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth;

-and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act;

-and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same (other than alien enemies) and shall, before any court of record, give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation that they intend to reside therein; and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;

-and all infants wheresoever born, whose father (if living, -or otherwise whose mother) was a citizen at the time of their birth, -or who migrate hither, their father (if living, -or otherwise their mother) becoming a citizen; (or who migrate hither without father or mother), shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth, (-until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed);

-and all others not being citizens of any the united States of America shall be deemed aliens….

~ ~ ~

This is more revealing that either side can accept. Why? Because it demolishes both jus soli and jus soli + jus sanguinis as the on-going basis of natural citizenship.

With the passage of the act, citizenship by natural right is reestablished as pure jus sanguinis, and British common law native-birth subjectship or citizenship is perpetuated as a traditional allowance for immigrant-born children.

But an infant "wheresoever born" on Earth, if born of a citizen of the republic, was by nature also a citizen due to their blood relationship, -State membership by descent alone.

That is what it says but no one here is willing to accept what is right before your eyes. Neither side.

Both jus soli (for the 2%) and jus sanguinis membership (for natives, -the 98%) were authorized by law.

The natural law of belonging is made supreme from the family level to the republic level, while the mercy of the law continued to be extended to new-comers' native-born children.

DO NOT CONFUSE STATE CITIZENSHIP WITH LATER NATIONAL CITIZENSHIP.

Anonymous said...

He's something that's eye-opening in several ways, including that Obama, by U.S. law, could not become a naturalized citizen:

U.S. Code › Title 8 › Chapter 12 › Subchapter III › Part II › § 1424
8 U.S. Code § 1424 -
Prohibition upon the naturalization of persons opposed to government or law, or who favor totalitarian forms of government
(a) Notwithstanding the provisions of section 405(b) of this Act, no person shall hereafter be naturalized as a citizen of the United States—

(1) who advocates or teaches, or who is a member of or affiliated with any organization that advocates or teaches, opposition to all organized government; OR
(2) who is a member of or affiliated with
(A) the Communist Party of the United States;

(B) any other totalitarian party of the United States;
(C) the Communist Political Association;
(D) the Communist or other totalitarian party of any State of the United States, of any foreign state, or of any political or geographical subdivision of any foreign state;
(E) any section, subsidiary, branch, affiliate, or subdivision of any such association or party; or
(F) the direct predecessors or successors of any such association or party, regardless of what name such group or organization may have used, may now bear, or may hereafter adopt,


[Obama was a member of and candidate for "The New Party" of Chicago, -a communist front group, in his first election ever. They lied and tried to hide the proof but it was uncovered anyway.]

-unless such alien establishes that he did not have knowledge or reason to believe at the time he became a member of or affiliated with such an organization... that such organization was a Communist-front organization;...
~~~
The following statement is at the very top of the page:

The sole authority to naturalize persons as citizens of the United States is conferred upon the Attorney General.

The pontificaters on both sides who claim that Congress possess an imperial parliamentary unlimited power of naturalization deserve to have their heads handed to them, because they, and that unconstitutional statement, are all three wrong.

As shown in Jefferson's 1779 Act, the power of one's own words can expatriate a person just as they can make one a citizen via the oath of Allegiance & Renunciation. Government in America is forbidden from possessing that authority although it has usurped it anyway in following the imperial path of Parliament, which held unlimited power.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ray,

I of II

You said:

“Regarding the 1779 Virginia citizenship statute, take note of the semicolons and the meaning is apparent.

‘Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act, and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same;

and shall before any court of record give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation, that they intend to reside therein, and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;

and all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise, whose mother was, a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father, if living, or otherwise their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother, shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth, until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed;

And all others not being citizens of any the United States of America, shall be deemed aliens.’

The first clause specifies: 1) all white persons born in Virginia, 2) all who have resided in Virginia for two years prior to this act, 3) all who thereafter immigrate to Virginia

The second clause requires that all person identified by the first clause swear an oath.

The third clause specifies that the citizenship of children follows that of the father or if dead the mother, and that orphans are citizens.

The fourth clause specifies that all others who are not a citizen of any of the United States, are aliens."

-----

Indeed, one must take note not only of the semicolons, but also of the commas.

Jefferson would have had to write the statement thus in order for it to mean what you propose:

"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth, all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act, and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same.”

But this is not what he wrote. He wrote:

"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act, and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same.”

There is no comma after “commonwealth” like there is after “act.” Rather, Jefferson did not use a comma and he followed “commonwealth” with “and.” Hence white persons born in Virginia and all those who resided there for two years next before are both (“and” preceded with no comma) qualified by “before the passing of this act.” You have “before the passing of this act” only applying to those who have resided in Virginia. If that were the case, Jefferson would have used a comma after “commonwealth” and not used the “and” to show that what follows the “and” is totally separate and not related back to “all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth.” You also have failed to address Jefferson requiring person born in Virginia to be “white,” but not requiring “all infants wheresoever born” to be “white.”

Hence, the “passing of this act” qualifies both persons who were born in Virginia and those who resided there, not just the latter.

Your reply will be most appreciated.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

You do not have license to rewrite Jefferson’s act with your own punctuation the way you have done. There was no more pure jus soli under the act for those “infants” born after the passage of the act. Pure jus sanguinis controlled in the future. But the jus sanguinis was to make a citizen of Virginia (state citizenship), not to make a natural born citizen (national citizenship) which was not the purpose of the act. The importance of the act is to show that jus soli was only grandfathered up to the passage of the act and then rendered inapplicable thereafter. Hence, the English common law was abrogated by the Virginia statute.
What followed in 1790 was Congress abrogating the English common law throughout the United States as it may have applied to making a national citizen. They did that with the Naturalization Act of 1790, 1795, and 1802. These statutes also rejected jus soli. They treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. They allowed children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents to be considered as citizens of the United States. The only children these act did not act upon were those who were born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents. Hence, these were the natural born citizens.

Unknown said...

h2ooflife said...
"The sole authority to naturalize persons as citizens of the United States is conferred upon the Attorney General"

If you read further, you will see that it is the authority to administer the oath of naturalization, thereby naturalizing a person. They don't make the rules, they just carry them out. The court where the oath is taken has to be authorized by the Attorney General.

The Congress has the exclusive power to "establish a uniform rule of naturalization".

Congress makes the rules, the Attorney General carries them out.

Ray said...

If the first clause had been worded:

"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act, and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same"

or

"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act, and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same"

I would be more inclined to agree. As it is, "and all" seems to be specifying a new set of persons.

Those born in Virginia after passage of the act, to be a citizen, must be born to a citizen father or if the father is dead a citizen mother - without regard to race - and without taking an oath. Therefore, "white persons born in Virginia" who are required to take an oath must necessarily be born “before the passing of this act”.

I don't see any requirement for “all infants wheresoever born” to be “white.”

I think where we differ is I read it as "all who have resided in Virginia for two years prior to this act" can become a citizen upon swearing an oath and without regard to race.

I do see a tension in the "before passage" group. Newcomers to Virginia may become citizen without regard to race while those born in Virginia must be "white". This could only be a compromise with slave holders.

Ray said...

I view the semicolons as “super commas” separating several clauses.

The first clause specifies the general case.

The second clause modifies the first clause by imposing conditions on it.

The third clause specifies a specific case.

The fourth clause specifies a specific case.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ray,

I of II

You said:

If the first clause had been worded:

"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act, and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same"

or

"Be it enacted by the General Assembly, that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act, and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same"

I would be more inclined to agree. As it is, "and all" seems to be specifying a new set of persons.

Those born in Virginia after passage of the act, to be a citizen, must be born to a citizen father or if the father is dead a citizen mother - without regard to race - and without taking an oath. Therefore, "white persons born in Virginia" who are required to take an oath must necessarily be born “before the passing of this act”.

I don't see any requirement for “all infants wheresoever born” to be “white.”

I think where we differ is I read it as "all who have resided in Virginia for two years prior to this act" can become a citizen upon swearing an oath and without regard to race.

I do see a tension in the "before passage" group. Newcomers to Virginia may become citizen without regard to race while those born in Virginia must be "white". This could only be a compromise with slave holders.

=====

Again, here is the act which I have cleaned up for punctuation and spelling errors that as Wilted Rose pointed out are contained in the transcript and reformatted by me for better clarity:

BE it enacted by the General Assembly,

(1) That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act;

(2) and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same, other than alien enemies, and shall before any court of record, give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation that they intend to reside therein; and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;

(3) and all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father if living, or otherwise their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother,

shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth

until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed;

and all others not being citizens of any the United States of America shall be deemed aliens….

Revised Bills of 1779, chap. LV. p. 41.

As you correctly state, the “and all” is needed to specify a new set of persons. But that a new set of person is signaled does not help your argument. The problem with your interpretation is that after creating that second set of person there is nothing in the sentence which shows that the qualifier “before the passing of this act” relates only to the second set and not also to the first set. Again, it would have been easy for Jefferson to show that the qualifier applied only to the second set and not also to the first set by using a comma after “commonwealth,” thus showing that persons born in Virginia was a set all by itself and not qualified by “before the passing of this act” which as you say was supposed to apply only to the second set.

In your proposed language which you say would achieve what I am advocating, you are blending the born set with the residing set, thereby creating only one set which is not Jefferson’s intent. In his first statement, he meant to create two separate sets, those who were born in Virginia (one set) and those who resided in Virginia for at least two years (another set). Hence, he would not have written a sentence as you state which created one set out of the two sets.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Why would Jefferson deal with the born citizens twice, once in the beginning relative to those born in Virginia and who had to be “white,” and then again later when he talks about “infants wheresoever born?” After all, are not all persons who are born infants? Why does he call the first born set “persons” and the second born set “infants?” The only reasonable explanation is that the first born set included persons who were already adults and infants born before the passage of the act. Hence, he called them “persons.” But for those to be born after the passage of the act, they would have all been infants and so he called that set “infants.”

Concerning the “tension” in the “before passage” group, the sentence: “That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act” can be read: “That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and all white persons who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act.” That would solve the tension.

You have not addressed my question, why would Jefferson require persons born in Virginia to be “white” and not require the same for “infants wheresoever born?”

I cannot agree with your point about Jefferson’s semicolons being “super commas.” From his statute we see that Jefferson knew when to use a coma and when to use a semicolon. It is unreasonable to think that when he used a semicolon, he really meant to use a comma. Also, you do not explain the significance of his semicolon really being a “super comma.” It appears like you are reading a lot into what Jefferson wrote to support your position.

Do you deny that the word “wheresoever born” means born anywhere in the world, including Virginia?

Do you deny that “infants” includes all human beings at the time of their birth?

Do you deny that after the passage of the act a “white person[]” born in Virginia to alien parents would necessarily be an “infant wheresoever born?” If you cannot deny this statement which means that they were, do you deny that under the statute they would therefore have to be born to citizen parents in order to be a citizen of Virginia?

In order for Jefferson to have meant what you advocate, i.e., that he created a set of persons who could be citizens simply by being born in Virginia, to be retroactive and prospective, meaning the status would continue even after the passage of the act, he could have written his statute thus:

BE it enacted by the General Assembly,

(1) That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth;

(2) and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act;

(3) and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same, other than alien enemies, and shall before any court of record, give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation that they intend to reside therein; and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;

(4) and all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father if living, or otherwise their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother,
shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed;

(5) and all others not being citizens of any the United States of America shall be deemed aliens….

Jefferson did not write this, but rather what is stated in the actual statute. The statute as written speaks for itself. It tells us that for children born in Virginia after the passage of the statute, only those who were born to citizen parents could be citizens of Virginia. This is pure jus sanguinis, not jus soli. Hence, Jefferson wrote a citizenship statute for Virginia which abrogated the English common law and which was consistent with citizenship principles stated in the law of nations.

Ray said...

Upon further consideration my understanding must be incorrect for the following reason: one day after passage a person who resided in Virginia for less than two years prior would not be eligible to take an oath and become a citizen while a newcomer could arrive and immediately take an oath and thus become a citizen. That would be absurd.

Although "and all" is worded awkwardly, it must be that "white persons born" in Virginia must meet the two year residency requirement to be eligible to take an oath and thus become a citizen. How else could it be read?

Unknown said...

What version of Jefferson's citizenship act are you looking at?

Provide links.

I can't believe that you guys are arguing over an edited transcription of the bill.

The transcription at http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/a4_2_1s4.html
was edited by Julian P. Boyd. Either he changed it or had a functionally illiterate secretary type it up who didn't know the difference between commas and semicolons.

Look at the book of statutes published under the authority of the General Assembly of Virginia in 1822.

http://books.google.com/books?id=ttUTAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA129&dq=%22all+infants+wheresoever+born%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=k6qTU6ioK_SssASm2YDADA&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22all%20infants%20wheresoever%20born%22&f=false

Semicolons separate independent clauses.

BE it enacted by the General Assembly,

That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth, and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act;

and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same, other than alien enemies, and shall before any court of record, give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation that they intend to reside therein;

and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;

and all infants wheresoever born, whose father if living, or otherwise whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father if living, or otherwise their mother, becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother,

shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth until they relinquish ...


Look At The Source Material, or you are arguing over someone's transcription errors.

Ray said...

I have no doubt that Jefferson knew when to use a semicolon or a comma, and I in no way implied that they are equal. To the contrary, by "super comma" I meant to convey that a semicolon has higher precedence than a comma in separating parts of a sentence. To ensure that this is not a modern understanding of punctuation I referred Noah Webster's “Grammatical Institute of the English Language”, first published in 1784. A excerpt of the pertinent portion of the 1800 edition is here or the complete book here. Webster’s explanation of the rules of punctuation are taken directly from Robert Lowth’s 1762 book, “A Short Introduction to English Grammar”. A brief excerpt of the 1791 edition is here or the complete book here.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

In my cleaning of the erroneous transcript, I missed the comma after "commonwealth." I therefore have to correct myself on the statement that I made regarding whether "white" persons born in Virginia was limited only to those born "before the passing of this act." However, my conclusion about Jefferson's law does not change, but I will reformulate my reasoning in another comment.

Thanks for catching that.

ajtelles said...

Esoterica...

Mario, Ray, Wilted Rose, your discussion of colons and semicolons and commas, and etc. is informative, even though it is esoteric.

To say that it is "esoteric" is not derogatory, it is simply descriptive.

When people who understand an issue in it's nuances and implications, well, we all learn from their articulation of their perspectives.

It would be nice for other informed people to add to the ongoing conversation of Mario's blog "Natural Born Citizen" with articulate insight to the original intent and the original genesis implications of John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washington.

An Article V amendment to clarify the ambiguity of Article II is coming, sooner or later, and BHObama foolishness will probably be the catalyst.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

This is the only logical formatting of Jefferson's text:
Be it enacted by the General Assembly

That (1) all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth;

(2) and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act;

(3) and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same...;

and all infants wheresoever born, whose father...was a citizen at the time of their birth,
shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth,

It is a logical imperative of language that "commonwealth" be followed by a semi-colon.
There is simply no way around it, it is required, -just as with all of the other clauses which are of the very same nature.

You can speculate where the period above the comma went, -why it is missing, why it was not transcribed, or where in the process it got lost, but this much is damn certain, it's mighty dang easy for a tiny period to get lost somewhere along the process.

Maybe Jefferson didn't have enough ink on his pen when he touched it to the paper, or maybe it was so minute in size that it faded away or was overlooked since seeing it might have necessitated using a magnifying glass.

Whatever the reason, it was intended to be there because the language demands it.
That means that jus soli continued in force for the 2% or so of the population born of immigrants while the almost full body of the native citizenry followed nationality by descent from the father.

What confuses people is the fact that 98% of those born of citizens were born not "wheresoever" but within the State, (just like immigrant children) but their citizenship was not negotiable by lawmakers, -it was not by permission of government. It was by NATURAL RIGHT.
Their citizenship is the result of birth to a citizen father though they are falsely presumed to be a citizen because of birth location.

But everyone focuses on where they were born (the tail) instead of to whom they were born, i.e., a citizen father (the dog).

In addition it seems that the two-year residency period before naturalization was waived with the passage of the act.

Anonymous said...

Art, when are you going to finally figure out that by emphasizing the underlining of "born", you are undermining the very dogma of Mario's that you support?

Both the nativists (you and Mario) and the obots claim that "natural born citizen" is a term of art. Why don't you get your sharp mind in gear and ask Mario how the hell one can underline a word within a term of art when the whole term has a unitary meaning?

You all falsely believe that "natural born" is actually "natural-born with a hyphen between just like common law "natural-born subject".

With "natural-born subject" being a term-of-art(ifice), meaning any subject of Britain, how the heck can it be applicable to a free republic based on Natural Law and natural membership, -one that only acknowledges patrilineal descent as natural?

How can anyone underline either of the two words of "natural-born" when neither of them has any meaning left if they are preserved in America as a continuation of the bastardized common law of Britain?

How could John Jay underline either word if the entire phrase is and was a unitary term of art and not a literal phrase meaning just what its words convey; like pretty young woman, wise old man, NOT like filthy-rich guy, highly-talented athlete, damn-good cook, or natural-born killer?
Can you underline "born" in "natural-born killer"? You can't because it is joined at the hip to "natural".
Same with your version of nbc. In it, you can't emphasis "born" by itself because it is not by itself. It is a part of a unitary, single-meaning phrase.

The only explanation for Jay singling-out "born" is the one that occurred to me one day, which I've shared to deaf ears that are still deaf, and will no doubt remain deaf until the end of time.

Ray said...

h2ooflife -

Rather than conjuring up punctuation marks to suit your fancy, take the text as it is and interpret it as accurately as possible. Errors may have been made, but no one here has intentionally altered punctuation.

ajtelles said...

Are the Obama-birthers "immoral"...

Mario, the Obama-birthers, led by Dr. Conspiracy, aka Kevin, a true-believer in the one-citizen-parent theory of the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS, when not chasing Sheriff Joe Arpaio and Lt. Mike Zullo and Carl Gallups and others, digress into dissing the 1787 original birthers, the original authors, the original Framers of Article II, by misrepresenting 2014 defenders of the original birthers.

This is from Dr. Conspircy's erudite June 2 post -

>> Reply to Mario Apuzzo on immoral birthers
>> By Dr. Conspiracy on June 2, 2014 in Mario Apuzzo

>> Mario Apuzzo has raised an objection to my recent article titled, “The moral dimension of birtherism,” in which I say that birtherism is immoral. Apuzzo writes:

>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/06/reply-to-mario-apuzzo-on-immoral-birthers/

The Obama-birthers, Kevin and et alii are not persuasive and they are not convincing.

Dr. Conspiracy concludes with this inanity.

>> So Mr. Apuzzo has a history of character assassination and lying, and like Apuzzo,
>> so do all others who support the two-citizen-parent theory that I know about.

2 citizen parents vs. 1 citizen parent

Mario, obviously the erudite about everything except original intent Dr. Conspiracy is not aware of John Jay and his original intent and original genesis reason for underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the ONLY implicit presupposition of birth ONLY on U.S. soil, NEVER foreign soil, and his concomitant implicit presupposition that birth was to be ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE their children were born.

Maybe the erudite Dr. Conspiracy or his erudite denizens lurking here can become informed about Jay's original intent and original genesis reason. This is something I posted here on June 8, 2014 at 4:20 PM, which includes the draft amendment to clarify Article II as affirming ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents -

ajtelles said...

Are the Obama-birthers "immoral"...

2/

>> 1a-U.S. soil ONLY?
>> 1b-Foreign soil ALSO?

>> 2a-Two U.S. citizen parents ONLY?
>> 2b-One U.S. citizen parent ALSO?
>> 2c-Zero U.S. citizen parents ALSO?

>> Which of the soil and birth questions would John Jay have affirmed?

>> The questions that end with ONLY, or the questions that end with ALSO, or, as some Obama-birthers have opined, all?

>> What was John Jay implying in 1787 America when,
>> during the 1700s,
>> the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife
>> and the citizenship of BOTH of the parents
>> determined the citizenship of the child?

>> Until the Cable Act of 1922, husbands and wives did not have different citizenships.
>> Husbands and wives were either BOTH U.S. citizens or BOTH aliens,
>> and the children were what their parents were,
>> either citizens or aliens.

>> From the 1700s until the 1900s,
>> specifically the 1922 Cable Act,
>> BOTH parents determined the citizenship status of the child.
>> Both parents, either U.S. citizens OR foreign citizens, aliens..

>> BOTH parents.

>> THAT is the 21st century common sense conclusion as to why John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his July 25, 1787 note to George Washington, and which the Convention delegates accepted, including the "Father of the Constitution" and author of the Bill of Rights, Founder, Framer and Ratifier, James Madison.

>> BOTH parents.

>> The U.S. soil was obviously implicit in the word "born" because the birth has to take place on the soil that is already there and recognized as the national soil of the U.S., NOT foreign soil, and BOTH parents would be ONLY U.S. citizens.

>> BOTH parents.

>> The entire U.S. Congress can NOT produce a "natural born Citizen" of the nation by positive law naturalization acts.

>> Only TWO parents can produce a "natural born Citizen" of the nation by natural law, uh, acts of congress.

>> BOTH parents.

John Jay's 1700s original intent and his original genesis meaning is irrefutable.

Jay had ONLY ONE original intent and ONLY ONE original genesis meaning, NOT two. That is the ONLY conclusion possible when connected with the 1700s understanding that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife and the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

BOTH parents.

The erudite Dr. Conspiracy NEVER deals with the original intent of the original birthers, the originad Framers, the original authors of "natural born Citizen," as a defense of his Obama birth narrative "theory" without foundation that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent was Jay's original intent in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen."

John Jay's 1700s original intent and original genesis meaning is irrefutable.

BOTH parents were U.S citizens OR foreign citizens, aka aliens, and so was the child.
ONLY a child born of TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other is a "natural born Citizen."

Mario, it seems that your online tutorials about the original intent of the original Framers of the words "natural born Citizen" are still needed, Kevin/Dr. Conspiracy's "one-citizen-parent" theory is proof. The "one-citizen-parent" theory is "original intent " and "original genesis" inane.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

focus...

Adrian/h2ooflife, aka h2o, you should direct your June 10, 2014 at 3:45 AM comments about underlining the word "born" to John Jay, not to me or Mario.

h2o, you should direct this comment to John Jay -

>> Can you underline "born" in "natural-born killer"?
>> You can't because it is joined at the hip to "natural".

>> Same with your version of nbc.
>> In it, you can't emphasis "born" by itself
>> because it is not by itself.
>> It is a part of a unitary, single-meaning phrase.

>> The only explanation for Jay singling-out "born"
>> is the one that occurred to me one day,
>> which I've shared to deaf ears
>> that are still deaf,
>> and will no doubt remain deaf
>> until the end of time.


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

h2o, after your "explanation" that "occurred" to you "one day," well, there you go. It is YOUR "explanation" and not John Jay's original intent and original intent meaning. Right?

h2o, it is YOUR version of "born" and nbC that is not historical, and it does not have John Jay's 1700s TWO parents origianl intent and original genesis meaning, TWO parents, TWO U.S. citizen parents.

h2o, Did you "hear" that? You're not "deaf," are you?

TWO parents.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

There is no doubt that Dr. Conspiracy and his cohorts (not to be confused with an ancient Roman military unit) are out of their minds for saying that I am immoral and a liar for arguing, as the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court, paraphrasing Emer de Vattel, Section 212, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797), clearly and authoritatively confirmed in Minor v. Happersett (1875), that a natural born citizen is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth.

They can delude themselves by thinking that they can change that by arguing about the price of bread on Tuesday, but none of that nonsense can change that reality.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

I posted your comments about Doc C's article (and Mario's response) on his blog and I thought I would share a part of his response to you:

In [Art's comment], I think the word “implicit” means “I made it up.”

Apuzzo continues his immorality by intentionally misrepresenting what I said.


You can find the whole comment here:

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/06/reply-to-mario-apuzzo-on-immoral-birthers/#comment-333755

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash wrote:

The Desperation of Dr. Communist, who wrote to Art:

First off, I'm not a communist---words have meanings and the attempt by you and your fellow travelers on the right to use words like "communist" as pejoratives merely to smear your political opponents with views they don't hold is pretty much the same thing that the government in George Orwell's 1984 did when they dumbed down the language and done for the same purpose. In other words, it's double plus ungood.

I'm a social democrat (which I believe puts my political beliefs in line with the teaching of Jesus) who advocates a rational mix of socialism---for things like health care, fire, police and infrastructure---and well regulated capitalism for everything else. Your unwillingness or inability to even acknowledge the nuances of my positions is ineffective cover for the lack of merit inherent in your own views---not to mention being intellectually dishonest.



2. My position (and that of the Judicial Branch) is that "natural born citizen" = "born a citizen".

Translation: I and my "fellow travelers" on the Marxist path denounce the use of the word "natural" as being unnatural in the eligibility clause. It is redundant and superfluous, showing that the founders & framers were much more stupid than I am.

I'm not a Marxist either. I think the "pure" versions of all types of economies (communism, socialism, Marxism, capitalism) are disastrous in application.

I don't think it was redundant and it is the implication of your views that suggest the Framers were stupid enough to use the term "natural born citizen" in a completely different way than the well established term "natural born subject" without telling anyone about the change



I base my reasoning on the meaning of "natural-born subject" as used in the common law, even though its meaning included ALL subjects, including naturalized.

Again you misrepresent my position. You also play semantic games with naturalization language from a country in which the rights of natural born subjects and naturalized subjects were the same. For there to be a contradiction, you would need to show that a naturalized subject held an office or was accorded a right reserved solely to natural born subjects.


I am above acknowledging the self-contradiction in the foundation of what "we" (the consensus establishment) believe. I do not have to explain it. YOU simply have to accept it as "reasonable" and true.

There is no contradiction in the foundation of the consensus view, nor is it an "establishment" position. It is clearly articulated in dozens of places, but, at its root is the clear reasoning in the holding of Wong Kim Ark. You obviously don't need to accept it as "reasonable and true", but anyone who is the slightest bit objective or has a rudimentary understanding of the law or is not completely biased against President Obama does.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

"Mario's crank theories...will never win a court case; What do you think you are going to get out of it?"

Translation: If two candidates for town treasurer are tied in votes, and they decide to settle it with a game of poker, and one of them is winning by cheating; why would you not back the winner for town treasurer?
After all, he "drew" the most winning hands? Why stick with the candidate who lost while playing honestly? Just accept his loss and give the job to the winner (i.e., the cheater).


You still suck at analogies. Do you think that a judge in any court (let alone the SCOTUS) will issue a ruling supporting Mario's crank theories? Or your crankier theories? I don't. Quite simply, no new cases regarding President Obama's eligibility can be filed (the time when they would have been ripe is long past) and the only existing case in which Mario's ideas were involved has been denied cert at the SCOTUS. Nor is there any hope of your theories winning over public opinion---the birther movement is shrinking, not growing and this lonely little outpost is an illustration of how irrelevant you have become. The fact is that President Obama won two elections fair and square according to the rules (i.e. the US Constitution) and none of your crying about it will change anything.


"At some point you need to accept that you have lost."

Translation: Since the powers-that-be, all of them, are cowards, or accomplices, and have rigged the system on behalf of a candidate guilty of treason against the Constitution, you therefore need to "accept" that having the truth on your side is essentially meaningless and even worthless.

Except for the fact that the truth cannot even be seen from your side. This is something that is accepted by everyone (that is aware of it, any way) outside of the few remaining birther cells. Even in this tiny enclave, you cannot agree on a version of what you call "truth"---yet each of you clings to the belief that whatever delusions you've glommed onto are the Gospel, regardless of the fact that each different theory contradicts the others.


"Try as you might to smear President Obama with baseless allegations,"

Kevin's brain slipped a gear with the accusation of this blog being focused on the counterfeit birth certificate, -justifying the "allegation" of criminal fraud, and election fraud to go along with constitutional fraud.

None of you are willing to accept the Constitutionally backed word of the State of Hawai'i that President Obama was born there. Therefore you have all associated yourselves with the false (and self-contradictory) allegations of fraud. Even if one or both of the COLB and LFBC were forgeries, a prima facie case for fraud could not be made. In light of all of the alleged anomalies "proving" forgery having been scientifically debunked, the case for fraud is ridiculous on its face.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

"...you have nothing to show for it but a history of bearing false witness"

Translation: I've just accused you of swearing before a judge and jury to things that you know to be false (as forbidden by one of the Ten Commandments), namely that Obama finessed the production of a fake Hawaiian birth certificate because HDoH never issued him one.

So basically, you are a liar and a deceiver and a criminal and immoral. That's all. Now don't you just want to repent and beg your lord and savior Barackula to forgive you?


It's interesting how the only people to refer to President Obama in messianic terms are those suffering from Obama Derangement Syndrome. Seriously, he's a politician, not a messiah. I don't even believe that he is a particularly good one, just far, far better than any of the other choices we've had. If you want to believe that President Obama is the chosen one or the anti-Christ, go right ahead, but don't for a second believe that I subscribe to that nonsense. Nor have I accused anyone of swearing anything before a judge or jury---just breaking one of the Ten Commandments: all of you seem to make demonstrably false statements about President Obama effortlessly and continually. Like you just did regarding President Obama's birth certificate. The state of Hawai'i says differently than you do and the Constitution says that it is their word that counts.


"... and a desperate hold on your impotent prejudice against the lawful POTUS.

Translation: Prejudice of all kind is bad. It is bad of the Jews to be prejudiced against Adolph Hitler and their Nazi exterminators.
And by the authority invested in me, Dr. Communist, I officially declare that under my perverted version of law, Obumer is the LAWFUL POTUS. Yeah, I said it so it must be so.


It is the US Constitution which declares President Obama to be the lawful POTUS---he met all of its requirements to become the president and duly ascended to the office. Twice.

Prejudice of all kinds IS bad. Prejudice is defined as preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience. The Nazis were prejudiced against the Jews. The Jews had very good reasons for negative opinions regarding the Nazis. Since most of what birthers "know" about President Obama is based on absurd right wing straw men rather than his actual polices or actions, they are prejudiced against him.



"Not to mention the alienation of friends and family if you are like most birthers."

Translation: In desperation, I'll toss in every conceivable psychological lever I can think of to dump a huge guilt trip and emotional burden on you to convince you that, right or wrong, you should only care about outcome. The ends justify the means.
Ignore Truth. What has it ever done for you? Come on over to the Dark Side. It's great being on the cusp of the first American Socialist Empire.


Many birthers seem to have alienated family, friends and coworkers with their Quixotic jihad. Every one of us is responsible for the karma we put out into the world---its not surprising that the kind of bile that birthers produce tends to drive people away. I'm not suggesting that you ignore the truth, but rather that you ignore the delusion that your confirmation biases have led you to---after all, if you really had the truth on your side, why have you not been able to accomplish anything in six years? Also, if you hate socialism so much, I'm sure that you never make use of emergency rooms, Medicare, the police, the fire department, public roads, Social Security or any of the other socialist programs of the US government, right?

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

" If you really care about politics, start working to get the candidate of your choice elected in 2016."

Translation: I say "if" because this is just an insincere diversion for you, -something that you don't "really care about". So why not just drop it? Ok? Pleeeease! Do something else; anything else.

Oh, I think that you guys sincerely believe the nonsense you spout, but that doesn't change the fact that you have been completely ineffective at getting any traction with those ideas. Why do you think that is? Are you incompetent? Or is everyone conspiring to make you look like fools? Or could it be that you are simply wrong on the facts and wrong on the law? Or is their some other excuse as to why your entire movement has failed to accomplish anything substantive in six years?


"If all you do is keep whining about President Obama being an evil usurper then the only thing you will get is older and more hateful."

Translation: All of the founders should have followed that advice regarding King George III and his Parliament, then they would have ended up older and enslaved, instead of becoming "older and more hateful", to the point of demolishing the entire British-American relationship.

The Founders didn't fight the Revolution because they hated King George III or everything British---they fought to secure rights (specifically, the right to have a say in how they were being taxed) that the British were denying them. The Founders knew that a people fighting for freedom were much stronger than a country fighting against the British. Your fight is not for freedom or the Constitution as you claim (President Obama followed the rules in the Constitution in becoming President and birthers have utterly failed to prove any misconduct in doing so), but against a straw man version of a politician you are prejudiced against.


Hate is bad. Pleeeease stop hating the criminal in the White House! You are a lighthouse beacon that needs to be turned off. We, the subversive Progressive establishment, do NOT want anyone finding their way to the light of Truth. So just shut it down already! We WON! We are the Champions! It doesn't matter how we won so stop pointing out the Truth about the Lance Armstrong presidency of our Dear Leader, Barackula Obominus (aka; BAIR-ek o-BAM-a, a fraud through-and-through)

The birthers are a lighthouse warning ships away from a clear passage through the shoals. Fortunately, very few people are foolish enough to believe their signal. You can keep calling President Obama a fraud, but you have been unable to prove that in the court of public opinion, much less in a court of law. The obvious conclusion is that the only frauds here are the birthers.


Slartibartfast said...

Guys,

Keep parsing the Virginia law for all it's worth, it wont change the fact that it makes people born in Virginia citizens (and, implicitly, natural born citizens) without reference to the condition of their parents.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I see that Dr. Conspiracy continues his deceit in the name of his political agenda. He calls me a liar because I put in the Charles J. Kerchner Jr. complaint. Given the political and social conditions existing in Parkistan at the time, no average American would have traveled to Pakistan. Dr. Conspiracy creates a straw man, stating on his blog that I stated in the Kerchner complaint that there was for Americans a government-imposed “legal ban” for travel to Pakistan. Here is what I stated in the complaint:

“54. Obama stated publicly in San Francisco to a group of voters in 2008 that he traveled to Pakistan and we know that at the time such travel was prohibited to Americans using an U.S. passport.”

As can be plainly seen, I did not state that there was any government-imposed “legal ban” for Americans wanting to travel to Pakistan.

In defense of what I wrote, I explained to Dr. Conspiracy that a reasonable thinking American because of existing political and safety conditions could himself or herself decide that travel to Pakistan was prohibited without there being any “legal ban” imposed by our government to go there. For example, a person can decide that the cost of an item is prohibitive because too high, which means that the person will not purchase the item. But that does not mean that any government has imposed some legal ban of the purchase of the item. In fact, I asked him, to prove me wrong on what I said about the dangers of Americans going to Pakistan, to provide evidence as to how many Americans traveled to Parkistan when Obama traveled there and for what reason. To this day he has not provided that evidence, but still publishes on his blog that I said in the Kerchner complaint that there was for Americans a government-imposed “legal ban” for travel to Pakistan.

So, who is the liar, me or Dr. Conspiracy and his propaganda machine?

As far as your general political rhetoric to Art, it is just that. There is no substance to anything that you said. Do you really think that you can convince any critical thinker about the definition of a natural born citizen by just putting forth your little anecdotal nonsense, especially in light of the mountain of historical and legal evidence stacked against you? I do not think so.

You can paint the “Birthers” as bad as you want and then put into that “bad” group all those who seek to bring to justice the true definition of a natural born citizen. But your argument is just one big fallacy. In fact, all your arguments are filled with fallacies, bad logic, and falsehoods. You cannot provide real historical and legal evidence for what you maintain and just want to make up for it by your fallacious reasoning. Your effort at bringing light to the question of what is a natural born citizen is one big fail.

You are so biased and fraudulent in your approach that you, who claim to have a Ph.D. in Mathematics, do not even want to focus on the fact that the natural born citizens is a proper subset of born citizens.

ajtelles said...

implicit...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., aka, Kevin, on June 10, 2014 at 12:49 PM, you posted a comment by Dr. Conspircy, aka Doc C, aka Kevin, with his definition of "implicit" that indicates that Doc C "made it up" without cause.

S..., as you know, "implicit" does NOT mean "made it up."
S..., as you know, and I know you know that I know, "implicit" means implicit.

>> "Art,
>> I posted your comments about Doc C's article (and Mario's response) on his blog
>> and I thought I would share a part of his response to you:


>> In [Art's comment], I think the word “implicit” means “I made it up.”
>> Apuzzo continues his immorality by intentionally misrepresenting what I said.


>> You can find the whole comment here:
>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/06/reply-to-mario-apuzzo-on-immoral-birthers/#comment-333755
>> June 10, 2014 at 12:49 PM


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

implicit...

2/

17700s Facts about Two-Citizen-Parents Trumps the Theory of One-Citizen-Parent

S..., what else is there to say about a possibly benign misunderstanding and redefinition of "implicit" or a possibly obfuscatory response, when the context in which word "implicit" was used is NOT included.

S..., for the record, the context is John Jay underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in the 1700s when it was understood by EVERYBODY that the U.S. OR foreign citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. OR foreign citizenship of the wife, and the U.S. OR foreign citizenship of BOTH parents determined the U.S OR foreign citizenship of the child.

S..., maybe Dr. Conspiracy does not know, or does not care to understand 1700s original intent, that, in the 1700s context, there can be ONLY ONE original intent and ONLY ONE original genesis meaning in original birther John Jay underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to original birther George Washington ONLY 4 years after the 1783 signing of the Treaty of Paris after the war of independence was won against a "foreign" power, England.

S..., it is historically obvious that U.S. national security vs. foreign influence was the explicit original intent of John Jay in underlining the word "born" and implicit was born ONLY on U.S. soil, not foreign" soil. Right?

The 1700s implicit presupposition was that to be a "natural born Citizen" birth was to be ONLY on U.S. soil, not foreign soil as some Obama-birthers and Cruz-birthers assert, and the concomitant 1700s implicit presupposition was that birth was ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE their child is born.

The ONLY possible 1700s presupposition was that the U.S. citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. citizenship of the wife, AND the U.S. citizenship of BOTH parents determined the U.S. citizenship of the child.

BOTH parents.

It is THAT U.S. citizen child produced by the union of TWO U.S. citizen parents who ALONE is a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

BOTH parents.

S..., the "higher hurdle" in 1700s America was TWO U.S. citizen parents.
S..., the "lower hurdle" in 2000s America is ONE U.S. citizen parent.

BOTH parents.

ajtelles said...

implicit...

3/

S..., THAT is why Dr. Conspiracy's Obama birth narrative "theory" of ONLY "one-citizen-parent" is historically inaccurate, it is inane, it is deliberate fraud if it is maintained in pursuit of "I-I-I-Managed-to-OCCUPY-America" Obama's stealth political jihad exemplified in his tacit code to his cohorts and puppet-masters, "...we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America" from an individualist republic into a collectivist commune.

Regardless of John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning in the light of the history of the 1700s, Dr. Conspiracy and Obama-birthers perpetuate the theory, the myth, that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parents is sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

S..., the 1700 historically accurate "higher hurdle" of ONLY two-citizen-parents "reality" trumps the 2000s historically innacurate "lower hurdle" of ONLY one-citizen-parent "theory" promoted by Dr. Conspiracy, aka Doc C, aka Kevin and Obama-birthers who defend the Obama birth narrative.

S..., are there any other pinatas at Dr. Conspiracy's site who know how to write historical inaccuracies promoting the biggest historical political and electoral fraud in American history?

S..., the ONLY TWO citizen parents original intent and ONLY TWO citizen parents original genesis meaning of John Jay underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" is irrefutable, since there can NOT be TWO "original intent" and "original genesis" meanings. Right?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Ray said...

Slartibartfast,

People born in Virginia to citizen parentage are citizens, and "natural born citizen" is never mentioned. But you know that.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

Again you misrepresent my position. You also play semantic games with naturalization language from a country in which the rights of natural born subjects and naturalized subjects were the same. For there to be a contradiction, you would need to show that a naturalized subject held an office or was accorded a right reserved solely to natural born subjects.

"held an office or was accorded a right reserved solely to natural born subjects."??

They WERE natural born subjects by statutory law.
"shall be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be his Majesty's natural born subjects of this kingdom, to all intents, constructions, and purposes as if they and every of them had been, or were born within this kingdom "

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

None of you are willing to accept the Constitutionally backed word of the State of Hawai'i that President Obama was born there.

Bull. I think that he was born in Hawaii.

Slartibartfast said...

TJ wrote:

Slartibartfast,

I was polite and respectful, and you attacked me for no reason.


I put a high value on civility, but an even higher one on reciprocity. Politeness is merely the appearance of civility, true civility must include intellectual honesty as well---something which is noticeably lacking throughout the entire birther movement. Far more than enough dishonesty by the posters here has been documented by myself and others so as to preclude any presumption of civility. That being the case, I didn't attack you (I made one high probability assumption---that you hate President Obama---that I will happily apologize for if you can tell me what you like about our president). I'll dissect my original comment below so that you can point out exactly where and how you think I attacked you...

I did nothing to raise your ire,except possibly express a truth that disturbs you.

The truth doesn't disturb me at all. What disturbs me are people who repeat lies, willfully misrepresent their opponents and incessantly use logical fallacies in service of a proposition contradicted by the evidence which they assume to be true beyond all doubt (never a good idea).

I am trying to learn about the meaning of the phrase "natural born citizen. The fact that I chose this place to express my puzzlement seems to bother you, and apparently makes you assert some unfounded and untrue assumptions about me.

You chose poorly (my opinion). I'll address the assumptions I made regarding you below and will answer any criticism you have on the merits of my arguments.

In Texas tradition, when someone is a bully, we kick their butt until they apologize.

It's easy to get me to apologize---just present an intellectually honest response showing where I was wrong or made unwarranted assumptions and I will admit my mistake or address your assertions on their merits.

I don't think you are worth the effort, but I will say this:

You have been a rude, combative stack of bloviating bovine excrement, and you should be ashamed of yourself.


I have said nothing here which isn't objectively true, supported by relevant authority, or my honest opinion (identified as such). On the other hand, people on this site have repeatedly called me names like "traitor", continually and willfully misrepresented my arguments, and have committed so many logical fallacies that it is nearly impossible to document them all. In particular, most of the birther arguments on this blog boil down to "begging the question" (assuming the conclusion they are trying to establish) or misrepresenting either their opponent or the authority which they are citing. On the other hand, I have occasionally been impolite. Who should be more ashamed of themselves?

When someone addresses you respectfully, you show them respect in return. The attack you made on me was totally uncalled for.

Again, there wasn't really any attack on you (as opposed to attacks on the assumptions inherent in your comment), nor any particular disrespect (beyond a level of snark that you are going to need to get used to if you continue using this "internet" thing...

I consider us even now, and I hope I never have the pleasure of corresponding with you again.

Like the song says, you can't always get what you want.

Slartibartfast said...

TJ,

Just to give a small (but objective) example of Mario's dishonesty, we recently had a discussion about the terms "subset" and "proper subset" in which Mario said the following:

"How can you with a straight face maintain that my saying natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens implies that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens? How can anything “imply” that a proper subset is a subset of a set? Do you not know that being a proper subset, rules out being a subset of the set? What is amazing is that you have the nerve to inject politics into the honorable field of knowledge that we call mathematics."

Not only wasn't I "injecting politics" into mathematics, I was saying things that are trivially proved from the most basic definitions of set theory---namely that a "proper subset" of a set is also a "subset" of that set. It is mind-boggling to me that anyone would make a comment that is so demonstrably and egregiously false and at the same time so utterly trivial, but that's exactly what Mario did. The only difference between this case and his usual technique is that he normally uses much more verbiage to hide his fallacious logic.

Note: My use of the word "imply" is in the logical sense, i.e. it is implied because I can prove it to be the case.

Slartibartfast said...

TJ in Texas said:

"I have difficulty with the notion that the Congress, under their naturalization powers, and by Naturalization Acts, made new "natural born citizens" from time to time. When the naturalization occurs makes no difference, it is still naturalization. Natural born and naturalized are polar opposites."

Here is my annotated response:

TJ,

You may have a problem with it, but the first Congress (you know, the one which included many of the Framers) obviously didn't since they explicitly made new natural born citizens.


Since the Naturalization Act of 1790 made some children born overseas to US citizens natural born, this statement is objectively true. Furthermore, it contains nothing which can be considered an attack.

Since the SCOTUS has never objected, it is a certainty that the Congress retains that power to this day (whether or not they have actually used it).

I corrected this later to say that the SCOTUS never declared this act unConstitutional and, given that correction, it is again objectively correct. It is clearly within the power of the Congress to pass a law containing the same wording as the 1790 Naturalization Act if they so choose.

I would suggest that the reason for your incredulity is that you have assumed several falsehoods in your desperation to deny the legitimacy of President Obama.

In other words, it is my opinion that you are working from false assumptions (which is my honest opinion). I have also ascribed a common trait of birthers to you. If you do not wish to deny the legitimacy of President Obama, then I truly apologize, but most birthers show they care more about delegitimizing President Obama than the Constitution by their words and actions. Since there is no longer any way to directly attack President Obama's eligibility, if they truly cared about "correcting" the interpretation of the Constitution (or even effecting how President Obama "goes down in history"), then they would focus on what they could do, namely, advocate an Amendment to define "natural born citizen" or prepare to challenge the eligibility of 2016 candidates.

The first option is off the table with most birthers because it would implicitly admit that President Obama is eligible under the law as it stands now, so has no chance of removing him from office or tarnishing his legacy. If I truly believed the birther arguments and only cared about the correct interpretation of the Constitution, I would be preparing to challenge the eligibility of Piyush Jindal and Marco Rubio (Rafael Cruz should also be included, but his eligibility doesn't depend on the same argument as President Obama's). Honest birthers would be selecting a Republican candidate for the presidency and working to get him on the primary ballot in as many states as possible. This would give said candidate standing to challenge the ballot access of Jindal and Rubio on the grounds of their eligibility. Such a goal would also require determining the best states in which to file such a challenge and then writing the complaints so that they may be filed at the appropriate time. If Jindal and Rubio were ruled ineligible, it would cast doubt on President Obama's eligibility as well (there would still be the argument that, post Cable Act, a citizen mother is as good as a citizen father). That's what I'd be doing if our positions were reversed, however I strongly doubt that we'll be seeing any kind of good faith effort from birthers in this matter.


Why do you hate him so?

Again, tell me what you like about President Obama and what he's done right as POTUS and I'll gladly apologize for this comment.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

Also, if you hate socialism so much, I'm sure that you never make use of

emergency rooms, (I get a bill for that)
Medicare, (Insurance program where you pay premiums)
the police, (Community service that all of us pay for, for the benefit of the entire community)
the fire department, (Community service)
public roads, (Community service)
Social Security (I've paid into it all of my life, haven't you?)
or any of the other socialist programs of the US government, right?

Socialist?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I see that M. Publius Goat used 'subset' rather than 'proper subset.' I do not know why he did that and you would have to ask him for an explanation. He might have used subset in a layman’s sense and not in a mathematician’s sense. My suspicion is that he probably would have written proper subset rather than subset if he were asked to give the mathematician’s term."

Or maybe your client understands simple math terms. He could have used either "subset" or "proper subset" to express his legal theory; either way he would have been correct on usage of simple math terms and -- as we know from your own court results -- wrong on the law.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"For the OBOTS to win they have to prove one of two things: 1) that Obama specifically meets the criteria for the subset known as NBC or 2) they would have to prove that NBC and CAB are equal in all aspects."

Obots won. President Obama is now five months into his second term and you, Mr. Apuzzo, lost all your cases and all your appeals. Thus, applying your own logic, we obots must have done one of the two things you say we'd have to do to win. Which of those two things did we do? Take your pick.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Unknown is correct in saying that natural born citizens is a 'proper subset' of citizens of the United States."

And I had said it *before* you claimed it as a point of your own and made a big deal of "set theory".


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I do not know whether she actually meant to write proper subset because she actually knew what it meant or she was just using the qualifier 'proper' to make it look even better that a natural born citizen is a subset of citizen of the United States. You will note that other than her little comment, Unknown has not entered the discussion about set theory because she is not able to."

Yet *before* your "set theory" objection, I wrote in this very thread:

"Indeed I do hold that the people Article II calls 'natural born Citizens' are a (proper) subset of the citizens of the United States." [January 4, 2014, parenthesis in original]

"My position is, and has been for some years, that the Article II natural born citizens are the proper subset of United States citizens that gained their citizenship upon birth." [February 5, 2014]

"""My issue is that you stated, I think falsely, "you add that there is no difference between a 'natural born citizen' and a 'citizen of the United States." My position is, and has been for some years, that the Article II natural born citizens are the proper subset of United States citizens that gained their citizenship upon birth.""" [February 10, 2014]

"What I've been telling you is that the natural-born citizens are the subset of citizens who received their citizenship at the moment of birth, and, as I've noted here before, it's a proper subset." [April 19, 2014]


Esquire Apuzzo, you wrote that you don't know whether I "meant to write proper subset because (I) actually knew what it meant". Any clues yet?

--Bryan

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

Keep parsing the Virginia law for all it's worth, it wont change the fact that it makes people born in Virginia citizens (and, implicitly, natural born citizens) without reference to the condition of their parents.

It is simple grammar.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/semicolon.htm
"Use a semicolon [ ; ]
to separate closely related independent clauses:
'My grandmother seldom goes to bed this early; she's afraid she'll miss out on something.'
It is rare, but certainly possible, that you will want a semicolon to separate two independent clauses even when those two independent clauses are connected by a coordinating conjunction (and, but, for, yet, or).
This is especially true when the independent clauses are complex or lengthy and when there are commas within those independent clauses. "

It is what it is.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

Keep parsing the Virginia law for all it's worth, it wont change the fact that it makes people born in Virginia citizens (and, implicitly, natural born citizens) without reference to the condition of their parents.

It is simple grammar.
http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/grammar/marks/semicolon.htm
"Use a semicolon [ ; ]
to separate closely related independent clauses:
'My grandmother seldom goes to bed this early; she's afraid she'll miss out on something.'
It is rare, but certainly possible, that you will want a semicolon to separate two independent clauses even when those two independent clauses are connected by a coordinating conjunction (and, but, for, yet, or).
This is especially true when the independent clauses are complex or lengthy and when there are commas within those independent clauses. "

It is what it is.

Slartibartfast said...

Ray,

Apparently you don't understand what the word "implicit" means. "Persons born in Virginia" necessarily includes the class of people that everyone agrees is natural born. There is no distinction in the law that would make some persons born in Virginia natural born and other naturalized.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Pretty much the entire substance of your latest comments are nothing more than begging the question. In other words, you say that Doc C and I are wrong about the original intent of Jay because his intent is what you assume it to be. I have thoroughly explained what I think Jay's intent was and why. I believe that if you could attack the merits of this argument you would have, so I would suggest that you stop arguing like a petulant child who keeps repeating "did so!" and address my reasoning or admit I was correct.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

I apologize for representing you as not accepting President Obama was born in Hawai'i, but I do believe you are unique here in that regard (any more takers?)

As for misrepresenting your position vis-a-vis "natural born subject". In order to show that your semantic games are not a distinction without a difference, you would need to show that there was some sort of office or right which attached only to natural born subjects which was given to a person who naturalized.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Your use of the "prohibited" is wrong in any commonly understood meaning of the word. What, exactly, were you implying prohibited President Obama from traveling to Pakistan? Perhaps it was the New York Times travel article which said he would be required to get a 30 day visa available at any port of entry? Or the fact that he was visiting a friend who was a resident of Pakistan so he had a native guide? Or the complete lack of any travel advisory or restriction from the US government?

Please, tell us who you think was "prohibiting" President Obama from traveling to Pakistan.

ajtelles said...

2 vs. 1...

>> Slartibartfast, aka S..., you still don't get.

I read your intro comments on ObamaConspiracy after I posted the previous comment where you said you had posted my comment there.

>> http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/06/reply-to-mario-apuzzo-on-immoral-birthers/#comment-333755

Your use of the derogatory word "sycophantic" in the intro to posting my entire comment from June 10, 2014 at 9:34 AM on ObamaConspiracy.org indicates your shallow thinking. And here I thought that you had matured and stopped your hate language. Were you looking in a mirror to get inspired to use that shallow-thinker's word?

S..., no, THAT is not derogatory, 'cause something or someone inspired you to get into the shallow end of the intellectual pool again to try to unsuccessfully refute my exposition of John Jays original intent and original genesis meaning for underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in 1787 America and his original intent and original genesis meaning is still relevant in 2014 America.

S..., you're an excellent Obama-birther pinata, as is Dr. Conspiracy and others, as long as you all adhere to the theory, the myth of the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen was John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning for "born" in "natural born Citizen," instead of the historical 1700s understanding that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife and the citizen ship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child, which supports the Jay's implicit presupposition of ONLY birth on U.S. soil, not also foreign soil as some Obama-birthers and Cruz-birthers assert, and the concomitant implicit presupposition of birth ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

S..., BOTH parents were 1787 citizens, not only one citizen parent as 2014 Obama-birthers, eligibility myth makers and eligibility-truthers assert without historical foundation.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

When are you going to admit that the natural born citizens is a proper subset of the born citizens?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartast,

Please produce the names and titles of Americans who traveled to Pakistan when Obama traveled there. I sure would love to see some people who worked for the New York Times on the list.

TJ in Texas said...

Slartibartfast said...

" TJ,

Just to give a small (but objective) example of Mario's dishonesty, we recently had a discussion about the terms "subset" and "proper subset" in which Mario said the following:"

Mario does not understand set theory, or he does not know how to articulate precisely what he means when speaking of sets. (I'm giving him a break here)

A is a proper subset of B if and only if every element in A is also in B, and there exists at least one element in B that is not in A.

{1, 2, 3} is a subset of {1, 2, 3} (it is a subset of itself), but is not a proper subset of {1, 2, 3}.

{1, 2, 3} is a proper subset of {1, 2, 3, 4} because the element 4 is not in the first set.

If A is a proper subset of B, then it is also a subset of B.

Pretty basic.



A new example:

A = (lions, tigers, bears)

B = (lions, tigers, bears, elephants)

A is a subset of B because all of the items in A are also in B.

A is a proper subset of B because all of the items in A are also in B, AND because at least one item in B IS NOT in A.

I can understand your frustration.

About Obama, I think he can give a great speech. He reminds me a bit of Malcolm X and the way he gave speeches.
Obama isn't as fast on his feet as Malcolm X was, but when he is prepared he can be almost mesmerizing.

Please don't assume that I am like all of the people that have been insulting to you.

I want to learn, and I won't take someone's word for something. I research stuff to find out if it is true or not.
The best way to go wrong is to take someone's word for something.

(Stones music in background)

ajtelles said...

another pinata finger-wag but no beef...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., sometimes you make "pinata time," goin' for the good stuff inside the pinata, too easy.

The "good stuff" is this -

>> "Pretty much the entire substance of your latest comments are nothing more than begging the question."

S..., do you know what "begging the question" means and the best way it is to be used in a sentence?

You probably have a dictionary, so double check this definition.

American Heritage College Dictionary
beg v. begged, beg*ging, begs
_1. To ask for as charity.
_2. To ask earnestly for or of; entreat.
_3a. To evade; dodge: a speech that begged the real issues.
_3b. To take for granted without proof: beg the point in a dispute.

S..., as you know and Dr. Conspircy and most Obirthers know, the historical reality is that in the 1700s the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife and the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

In the 1700s, if the U.S. citizen father of the child was NOT married to the alien, foreign citizen mother of the child, the child was STILL a U.S. citizen child.

In the 1700s, if the alien, foreign citizen father was NOT married to the U.S. citizen mother of the child, the child was STILL a foreign citizen, an alien.

When the U.S. citizen husband married a U.S. citizen wife or a foreign citizen wife, BOTH parents were U.S. citizens, and the U.S. citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child, a U.S. citizen who is a "natural born Citizen"

BOTH parents = "natural born Citizen" child, NOT only ONE parent, which is simply and honorably a "citizen."

S..., your and Dr. Conspiracy's theory that only ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS is inane and is "begging the question."

S..., it is YOU, Dr. Conspiracy and Obama-birthers, defenders of the Obama birth narrative, who are evading and dodging the historical reality of the 1700s that "BOTH parents" and their issue is the "real issues."

S..., it is you who is taking "for granted without proof" Dr. Conspiracy's theory of "one-citizen-parent," and taking "for granted without proof" the "point in a dispute" that NOT "BOTH parents" but ONLY "ONE parent" was John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning.

S..., in your response, you continued with this -

>> "In other words, you say that Doc C and I are wrong about the original intent of Jay because his intent is what you assume it to be.

>> I have thoroughly explained what I think Jay's intent was and why.
>> I believe that if you could attack the merits of this argument
>> you would have,
>> so I would suggest that you stop arguing like a petulant child
>> who keeps repeating "did so!"
>> and address my reasoning
>> or admit I was correct.


S..., are you "a petulant child" or what? S..., sheesh!!! 'Nuf said.

S..., it is you who keeps repeating "not so... not so... not so..." without historical foundation to refute the 1700s irrefutable of BOTH parents, NOT only ONE parent.

BOTH parents.

S..., see, there was so much good stuff in this pinata. Right? Enjoy the thoughtful rebuttal to YOUR "attack" on my defense of John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning that only BOTH parents can produce a "natural born Citizen."

Both parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

TJ in Texas and Slartibartfast,

Do you both admit that the natural born citizens are a proper subset of the born citizens?

Just a simple yes or no is required. I do not need examples of what a subset or proper subset is.

TJ in Texas said...

Mario,

I think that Natural born citizens are a proper subset of "born citizens" by your definition of "born citizens".

All natural born citizens are "born citizens", but some "born citizens" are not natural born citizens.

(I still don't buy the idea of naturalized "natural born citizens" and I think that the 14th amendment naturalizes people.)

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

TJ in Texas,

Thank you for your answer. Now I am waiting on Slartibartfast. After I get his answer I will comment on what you wrote.

ajtelles said...

question...

Mario, not being a mathematician and a scientist like S.../aka Kevin, and not having studied set theory, although I would probably get an intellectual and philosophical kick out of mastering it, I have a simple question related to 1700 historical reality, not Dr. Conspiracy's 2000s unhistorical theory.

If and when S... responds, can you put your answer in a way that relates to John Jay's 1700s original intent and original genesis implicit presuppositions that underlining "born" in "natural born Citizen" meant ONLY birth on U.S. soil and ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

Thanks.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

what a waste of time...

Wilted Rose, I just finished reading the point-counterpoint with you, for what it's worth, with the erudite and thoughtfully comprehensive denizens on Kevin Davidson's ObamaConspiracy.org, and I have this one observation/suggestion.

Don't waste your time and your intellectual energy.

Dr. Conspiracy's ultimate comment is one example.

>> "Dr. Conspiracy June 10, 2014 at 11:05 pm (Quote) #

>> " That’s hardly an honest statement.
>> "You got quite a bit of debate
>> and you were shown exactly where you were wrong.

>> The question is
>> whether you paid attention
>> and learned something
>> from the load of material presented to you.


Wilted Rose, that is the intellectual depth of prose from ObamaConspiracy.

There is no 1700s historical original intent and no 1700s historical original genesis definition that is defended on ObamaConspiracy.org.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Do you really believe that you accomplish anything here by just saying 'no' to everything that I say without providing your own sources, reasoning, and logic which together present a convincing argument?"

Given the choice between finding my own source that refutes you, and finding that the source you yourself chose refutes you, I prefer the latter. It's a stronger debunking.

Slartibartfast said...

TJ,

But if you try sometime, you just might find, you get what you need...

It's sad that your little exposition on set theory was needed, but thank you for it. Regarding President Obama*, it looks like I owe you an apology---I did, in fact, assume that you were like all of the other people and clearly I was wrong. I do tend to like to be a little provocative up front---most of the time it results in confirmation of my assumption and in the rare case where I'm wrong, all it costs me is an apology.

Sorry. I was wrong to assume that you hated President Obama. It is, in my experience, a ubiquitous trait amongst birthers (they all suffer from Obama Derangement Syndrome) and no one with ODS would have been able to answer that particular shibboleth as you did.

On the subject of learning, I would suggest that, at some point, you must trust someone's word---the trick is to know who's word to trust and how much contrary evidence would be required to call that trust into question. This is complicated by the fact that we are really in the post-birther age and many of the best voices on the anti-birther side have either left the field or stopped directly debunking. Wilted Rose ran into a "heavy" (with a lot of firepower in support as well) in Ballantine over at Doc C's, but that kind of thing doesn't happen often these days and the very best (lawyers who are actually Constitutional scholars) have answered all of the questions to their own satisfaction and moved on to more important things long ago. The best thing to do is probably to subject both sides to strong critical scrutiny, but any standard that is applied equally is a fair one.

Thanks for proving my assumption wrong.

Kevin

* On your comment about him not being fast on his feet, did you see the press conference he held where he let members of Congress ask him questions (with no notes or teleprompter) early in his presidency? The only time I've seen him get caught flat footed was in the first debate against Romney, which I think was a "perfect storm"---a little altitude sickness (he arrived in Denver that afternoon while Mitt had been there for days), distraction due to an international event (I can't remember what, something in Syria, maybe), and a Gish gallop by his opponent (a very hard tactic to counter). Apart from getting schooled in Denver, I think he does pretty well with the "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" thing.

Art,

I see you have progressed to "I know you are but what am I?" At this rate you should be ready for an honest discussion in a century or so...

"Begging the question" is a logical fallacy wherein someone assumes the claim they are trying to prove. Mario does this regularly and you are proving to be an apt pupil of his in this regard. You have proved exactly nothing regarding what John Jay meant by underlining "born" as all you have is unsupported speculation. While I have nothing more than a theory as well at least mine is more plausible and simpler.

Anonymous said...

Ray said... "h2ooflife - Rather than conjuring up punctuation marks to suit your fancy, take the text as it is and interpret it as accurately as possible."

Ray, it is not about suiting anyone's fancy. It is about the unwavering rules of language punctuation. Even with no punctuation at all, the first clause stands alone as an individual clause because that is what it is. "and" begins a new one.
I gave you several possible reasons why the period above the comma might be missing. You addressed none of them, -ignoring them is a form of avoidance, not debate.

You fail to grasp reality when advising "take the text as it is". No one can know "what it is" without examining Jefferson's original hand-written copy, -possibly with a magnifying glass. Have you done that yet?

As for interpreting it as accurately as possible, that requires following the rules of language punctuation, -which you apparently choose to ignore. ~

Slarti said...
-the Virginia law...makes people born in Virginia citizens (and, implicitly, natural born citizens) without reference to the condition of their parents."

What ignorant idiocy. No law can make someone a natural born citizen anymore than a law can make you the natural born son of a different mother.

The law can only deem outsiders to be insiders, and adoptees to be as natural children. It cannot, and does not, deem insiders to be insiders because they are already that without any need for a law to make it so.

The natural born natives are within the description of those deemed citizens but they are not made what they are by it.
They are only identified by the law so that any State magistrate who is ignorant of State policy and law will know what the facts are.

Also, the term "natural born citizen" is antithetical to American values of inclusive equality and that is why is was not even used except when necessary.
Aside from the CiC position, all citizens were equal in every way and would not be defined by language aimed to categorize them.

Slartibartfast said...

TJ,

The idea that the 14th Amendment naturalizes people (born in one of the several states) is not consistent with the stated intent of the Framers of the 14th Amendment. See the Congressional debates on the Amendment and the comments by Binney cited in Wong Kim Ark:

"The right of citizenship never descends in the legal sense, either by the common law or under the common naturalization acts. It is incident to birth in the country, or it is given personally by statute. The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle. "

The 14th Amendment made the existing law (that under the Constitution as originally written) explicit, it didn't change it.

Mario,

This is the first time you've asked if natural born citizens are a proper subset of born citizens. The short answer is "No". Previously you were asking if natural born citizens were are proper subset of citizens (they are) and claiming that a set was not a subset of itself. And you needed the examples that TJ provided because you said things about the terms that were demonstrably untrue.

Anonymous said...

Slarti wrote: -the Naturalization Act of 1790 made some children born overseas to US citizens natural born,.. It is clearly within the power of the Congress to pass a law containing the same wording as the 1790 Naturalization Act if they so choose.

What ignorance! "within the power of the Congress" is a meaningless concept from a constitutional stand-point.
What Congress can do and what it is allowed to do by constitutional authorization are two different things.
It can pretend that it is imbued with a facsimile of the unlimited power of Parliament to pass anything it wants with no court to tell it otherwise, but Congress has no legitimate authority other than what the Constitution gives it.

And what does it give it? Authorization to write a nation-wide uniform rule for the States to adopt in their individual State naturalization procedures. Period. Nothing else!
NO POWER to naturalize anyone. Can't you read? Are you too stupid to comprehend plain English?
Why will no one on either side explain where the unlimited Parliament-like authority of Congress comes from?
Why? Because they don't have a single clue where it comes from. Pure presumption. No basis in anything.

Everyone is living is a false reality of their own absorbed impressions, -unwilling to read and comprehend the words of the framers.
In that crime against reason, both Mario and Slarti, and Dr. Conspiracy line-up together against the truth. (kind of like Islamists and Progressives versus Liberty.) Pathetic.
How can one debate with minds that get basic facts so wrong?

And will anyone on either side even attempt to dispute what I've stated? No they will not because there is no basis for any other view even though having one is central to their doctrinal delusions.

Anonymous said...

Slarti wrote: "In order to show that your semantic games are not a distinction without a difference, you would need to show that there was some sort of office or right which attached only to natural born subjects which was not given to a person who naturalized."

Is it just me or is the italicized "not" unneeded for that sentence to make sense? I added it because it was missing in mho. Anyone have any idea how it could make sense with it missing? Perhaps Slarti needs to explain. (I make similar typing mistakes all the time.)

Anonymous said...

American parents produce American children.

Only American parents produce natural American children.

Non-American parents can produce American citizen children.

Non-American parents can NOT produce natural American citizen children.

Only American citizen parents can produce natural American citizen children.

When the Constitution was written, only citizenship in the 13 separate Republics of America existed. But all State citizens were American Nationals. National citizenship was irrelevant to everyone's life unless they were among the rare few who traveled abroad.
Then, after a national State Department was organized, they traveled abroad not as the State citizens that they were but as the American nationals that they had become via the creation of a national government. They then traveled as citizens of The United States.
Upon their return, they reverted to their natural status of citizen of their American State or homeland Republic, -i.e., a citizen of THE united STATES of AMERICA. (see the header of the Dec. of Independence)

Then they were once again dual citizens; State citizens and national citizens with competing interests.
The national government naturally had to accept competing State citizenship but it did not have to, and didn't, accept dual citizenship in a foreign nation.

If you were born of a foreign father then you were a foreigner and not a U.S. citizen.
The States did not agree with that policy for their native-born citizens born of foreigners.

Most of the laws citizens were subject to were State and local laws, not federal, and if they never traveled abroad, their identity was far more tied to their own home State than to the nation as a confederation of separate republics.

As such, there was no concept of "a natural born citizen of The United States" since their citizenship was tied to their own State and not the aggregate nation.

Similarly, in the Star Trek universe, one could be a natural born citizen of Earth, but not a natural born citizen of the Federation of Planets. One can't be a natural member of an abstraction.

Nor can one be a natural born member of an official association of families. One can only be a natural member of their own family. So it was with the States back when they still were sovereign in most ways.

ajtelles said...

where's the beef...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., on June 11, 2014 at 2:23 AM, you responded with a non-response.

You said,

>> "Art,

>> I see you have progressed to "I know you are but what am I?"
>> At this rate you should be ready for an honest discussion in a century or so...

>> "Begging the question" is a logical fallacy
>> wherein someone assumes the claim they are trying to prove.
>> Mario does this regularly and
>> you are proving to be an apt pupil of his in this regard.

>> You have proved exactly nothing
>> regarding what John Jay meant
>> by underlining "born"
>> as all you have is unsupported speculation.

>> While I have nothing more than a theory as well
>> at least mine is more plausible and simpler."


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

S..., now we're gettin' somewhere, even with a non-responsive response.

Your comment indicates that you are a good student of Dr. Conspiracy's. He and you are very good at "begging the question" as you accurately defined it, "a logical fallacy wherein someone assumes the claim they are trying to prove," even when the 1700s citizenship facts say otherwise.

S..., you and Dr. Conspiracy assume the "one-citizen-parent" theory that is NOT supported by the explicit citizenship fact of the 1700s that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, and the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

S..., BOTH parents means explicitly BOTH parents, NOT implicitly ONE parent.

BOTH parents.

S..., is BOTH parents explicit enough for you and Dr. Conspiracy?

S..., to use your own words, "... as all you have is unsupported speculation.

S..., dittos, "if," to your last paragraph and sentence -

>> "While I have nothing more than a theory as well
>> at least mine is more plausible and simpler."

S..., yes, your and Dr. Conspiracy's 2000s "theory" of "one-citizen-parent" is "...more plausable and simpler" when facts are NOT adduced.

S..., the "theory" is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS "if... if... if..." the 1700s citizenship fact of "two-citizen-parents," if BOTH parents implied ONLY "one-citizen-parent."

However, "one-citizen-parent," male OR female, is contradicted by the 1700s "fact" of "two-citizen-parents," ONLY TWO citizen parents can produce a child that is a "natural born Citizen" who is Article II "...eligible to the Office of President."

S..., your and Dr. Conspiracy's 2000s "theory" is trumped by the 1700s fact.

S..., you and Dr. Conspiracy might even call it a "fact" of life, and you both would be right. Right?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Carlyle said...

What famous philosopher was it who wisely stated:

The truth is just the truth,
you can't have an opinion about it!


Which brings me back to a question I ask here every few months:

With all this high-sounding drivel posted here, don't you think it would be easy for biased/activist judges to put together a vast and 'convincing' opinion/analysis that The Obama is perfectly fine and legal?

In other words, even if a high court agreed to hear a case, who believes (regardless of the merit) that they would rule against The Obama?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Thank you for answering my question of whether the natural born citizens is a proper subset of the born citizens. You said they are not.

Now I have another question for you: Did the Fourteenth Amendment repeal or amend Article II’s natural born citizen clause? Do not just tell me as you always say that the amendment did not change preexisting law. I want you to specifically address whether it changed Article II’s natural born citizen clause.

ajtelles said...

An "original intent" question...

Mario, your question on June 11, 2014 at 11:03 AM to Slartibartfast, aka S..., is "original intent" excellent!!!

>> "Did the Fourteenth Amendment
>> repeal or amend
>> Article II’s
>> natural born citizen clause?"

Repeal [ ] yes [X] no
Amend [ ] yes [X] no

It is an excellent question because it deals with BOTH the original intent of 1700s Article II AND with the original intent of the 1800s 14th Amendment.

So, the "subset" or "proper subset" answer is, what?

Mario, the question is for S..., since he's the scientist and the mathematician and I am not.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Art wrote: "-by the 1700s "fact" of "two-citizen-parents," ONLY TWO citizen parents can produce a child that is a natural born Citizen.

Actually, you missed a step by over-looking the fact that the national government viewed children of foreign fathers (as seen in the naturalization acts) not only as NOT natural born citizens, but as aliens. Not citizens AT ALL! Don't forget that fact since it's even more fundamental.

Slarti quoted: Binney cited in Wong Kim Ark:

"The right of citizenship never descends in the legal sense, either by the common law or under the common naturalization acts. It is incident to birth in the country, or it is given personally by statute."

What an imperialist he was. Hook, line and sinker. His statement would be true if he had included a missing word: "legal" -as in "the legal right of citizenship never descend in the legal sense...
Of course it didn't. It was based 100% on birth location, -not blood, -not descent, which produces natural citizenship, -citizenship above and beyond the authority of government, -the citizenship of the sovereigns who created the government.

"The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle."

Half true, half British, -and anti-American. The alien-born babies were citizens solely because of the grace of the natural native members of the republic, -and last time I checked, grace or benevolence or permission are not describable as "a principle". Only natural membership follows a natural principle.

"The 14th Amendment made the existing law (that under the Constitution as originally written) explicit, it didn't change it."

What??? Have you lost your mind? There was no such thing as an existing law! There were 13 sovereign republics, each with its own separate nationality law. Try to understand that 13 laws are not one law as in "the existing law". Your concepts need a serious revamp. a.r.nash

TJ in Texas said...

Slartibartfast/Kevin,

Malcolm X was phenomenal when speaking; articulate, logical, passionate without being strident, and able to answer questions without hesitation. Just because someone isn't as good as someone else who was one of the best ever doesn't mean he isn't really good at what he does.

I have to confess that when Obama looks from the right teleprompter to the left teleprompter and back again over and over through a whole speech, I find it really distracting. It is like he is watching a slow-motion tennis match while speaking. Just listening and not watching is much better for me.

I was watching when Mom (wilted rose) posted her John Jay theory over at Dr. Conspiracy's. She did it because she didn't get any real feedback here. Boy she got feedback there! I thought the name-calling was out of line, but then some people were helpful in showing her where to go for more information, so it wasn't a total loss. She doesn't take people's word for stuff either. "Trust, but verify."

Anonymous said...

Mario, in answer to your challenge to Slarti, understand that the obamabots believe that the fictional "preexisting law" was the entrenched British common law still in force regardless, essentially, of the codified citizenship clauses of the States newish constitutions.

They pretend that British law was still the universal law-of-the-land and it dictated that all natural-born-subjects were now all natural born citizens regardless of the fact that "natural-born subjects" included the alien-born and even the naturalized(!) -a giant fly in their soup.

That is the basis of their dogma. They assert that it wasn't changed by Wong. That is a different argument than you have been engaging with them.

Your approach to that stance requires showing that British common law was not the law of the land and so it is shear lunacy for them to argue that something that did not exist was not changed by Wong.
If nbs actually equaled nbc then they would be correct that Wong changed nothing in that regard. But their premise is false.

What Wong changed was national citizenship policy. The Congress never had the authority to establish a national citizenship statute that conflicted with those of the States except in regard to foreign immigrants and their naturalization.

Wong made the ancient British and colonial common-law native-birth citizenship a national rule that had not previously existed, thus enfranchising the U.S.-born alien children.
That involved perhaps 2-3% of the native-born. The rest were still natural born citizens via patrilineal descent.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I am still waiting on your response to my Fourteenth Amendment question. I thought that it would be easy for you to answer it quickly.

ajtelles said...

and the winner is...

Mario, unless Slartibartfast, aka S..., is taking a looooooooong lunch break from posting comments to support Dr. Conspiracy's theory that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" is sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS, it looks like you won.

Your question on June 11, 2014 at 11:03 AM to S..., is "original intent" excellent!!!

>> "Did the Fourteenth Amendment
>> repeal or amend
>> Article II’s
>> natural born citizen clause?"

Repeal
[ ] yes
[X] no

Amend
[ ] yes
[X] no

It is an excellent question because it deals with BOTH the original intent of the 1700s' original authors' understanding about the original intent and the original genesis meaning of Article II, AND with the original intent of the authors of the 1800s' 14th Amendment.

So, the "subset" or "proper subset" answer is, what?

S..., lunch is over.
What is your answer?

I can't answer that, because you are the scientist and the PhD. mathematician, respected and honorable titles, and I am not.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

Chill out Mario. I do have a life outside of commenting on your blog. I just spent nine hours in a car and couldn't really care less about your impatience. Let's blow right by the irony of you asking for an opinion with no discussion (exactly why you say existing court rulings don't count) or demanding an answer when history shows that your will most likely misrepresent my position in any case.

That being said,

No.

TJ,

I didn't mean to suggest that President Obama was as good as Malcolm X, just that I thought he did well on his feet generally. The teleprompter thing doesn't bother me, but I can see where you might find it irritating. I actually saw Bill Clinton give a speech live (my master's graduation from Michigan State). Billy boy can give one hell of a speech too. I saw Madeline Albright (for my phd graduation from Duke) who was good but not great. Not to mention Timothy Leary after the point where he went from psychedelic prophet to technology prophet (plus he was kind of addled from all of the LSD).

As for how Wilted Rose is treated at Doc C's, you need to realize that they are making the same sort of assumptions I was here, only more so. And they have good reason to do so. Treat with them honestly and you will quickly find them warming to you (and still giving you substantive answers to your questions).

Art,

I find it interesting that you think it isn't worth Wilted Rose's effort to ask questions at a place where she receives substantive answers. I guess you prefer the stuff that you and Mario make up...

Adrien,

Are you planning on going back to the Fogbow? Only two more posts and you will be off moderation. If your arguments are truly as devastating as you believe them to be then surely you will be able to address the criticism that you've already received, right? Or will you tacitly admit that your theories are nothing but a house of cards which anyone can knock over without even trying?

Your choice.

ajtelles said...

questions v rhetoric...

S..., for the record, for what it's worth in the cosmic scheme of things, on June 11, 2014 at 9:40 PM, you defended Wilted Rose because he asked questions and responded to rhetoric without 1700 original intent and original genesis substance on Dr. Conspiracy's ONLY "one-parent-citizen" blog that defends the theory, the myth, that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient that for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

S..., Wilted Rose is male, not female. Just right click on "Wilted Rose" and click on "open link in new tab," then click on "about;" it says "gender male". How do I know that? I checked it a few days ago, and a few minutes ago.

S..., you wrote -

>> "Art,
>> I find it interesting
>> that you think
>> it isn't worth Wilted Rose's effort
>> to ask questions at a place where she receives substantive answers.

>> I guess you prefer the stuff that you and Mario make up...


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

S..., I read the responses to Wilted Rose on Dr. Conspiracy's forum.

There wasn't much of substance there, but there definitely was a whole lotta nothin' and what he responded to was not, in my opinion only, worth his intellectual effort. It would not have been worth my time and effort.

But, you might be right S..., Wilted Rose could have enjoyed responding to the pinatas.

S..., you are a much more funner "one-citizen-parent" pinata filled with more good stuff than most of the pinatas on Dr. Conspiracy's blog, so don't go away.

You are appreciated, you Dihydrogen monoxide hoaxer you – see June 7, 2014 at 4:39 AM and June 7, 2014 at 10:48 AM.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"I see that Dr. Conspiracy continues his deceit in the name of his political agenda. He calls me a liar because I put in the Charles J. Kerchner Jr. complaint. Given the political and social conditions existing in Parkistan at the time, no average American would have traveled to Pakistan."

That's not what you put it the complaint.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Dr. Conspiracy creates a straw man, stating on his blog that I stated in the Kerchner complaint that there was for Americans a government-imposed 'legal ban' for travel to Pakistan. Here is what I stated in the complaint:
'54. Obama stated publicly in San Francisco to a group of voters in 2008 that he traveled to Pakistan and we know that at the time such travel was prohibited to Americans using an U.S. passport.'”

And you did not stop there. You also wrote, "such travel was forbidden to American citizens at that time.”

You signed it. Your client, Charles Kerchner, with your advice swore to it. It was a lie. Travel to Pakistan on a U.S. passport was not prohibited. Such travel was not forbidden to American citizens at the time.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"In defense of what I wrote, I explained to Dr. Conspiracy that a reasonable thinking American because of existing political and safety conditions could himself or herself decide that travel to Pakistan was prohibited without there being any 'legal ban' imposed by our government to go there."

Which is a jaw-droppingly lame defense, given what you put in the complaint.

Contemporaneously with your work on the Kerchner complaint(s), you, Mr. Apuzzo, and Mr. Kerchner wrote on this blog:

"Obama stated publicly in San Francisco to a group of voters in 2008 that he traveled to Pakistan and we know that such travel could not be done then with a U.S. passport." -- Mario Apuzzo, 29 Jan 2009

"He has given up any claim to U.S. citizen by the combination of being adopted as a male by his step-father in Indonesia, which act required them to renounce his U.S. citizenship, if he had any, and then Obama himself confirmed that fact by traveling as an adult to Pakistan and declaring himself and Indonesian citizen, and not a U.S. citizen, since U.S. citizens were banned from Pakistan at that time in c1980." -- Charles Kerchner, 28 Jan 2009
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/01/new-case-filed-kerchner-et-al-v-obama.html

What you two wrote here at the time is entirely consistent with what you alleged and swore to be true in the complaint, and contradicts the ludicrous interpretation you made up after getting exposed for the lie.

ajtelles said...

"the lie"...

Mario, on June 12, 2014 at 4:32 AM, in the last sentence, Unknown #11 made a very, very, verrrrrrrrry brief comment.

>> "What you two wrote here at the time
>> is entirely consistent with what you alleged and swore to be true in the complaint,
>> and contradicts the ludicrous interpretation you made up
>> after getting exposed for the lie."


What "lie" is Unknown #11 promoting?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

TJ said the following:

"I was watching when Mom (wilted rose) posted her John Jay theory over at Dr. Conspiracy's. She did it because she didn't get any real feedback here. Boy she got feedback there! I thought the name-calling was out of line, but then some people were helpful in showing her where to go for more information, so it wasn't a total loss. She doesn't take people's word for stuff either. "Trust, but verify.""

From this, I very cleverly deduced that he was implying that Wilted Rose was female (since only females are biologically capable of being mothers). Furthermore, the handle "Wilted Rose" is a feminine one (suggestive of an older woman as well). Unless and until "Wilted Rose" tells me differently, I'll use feminine pronouns to refer to her.

The "lie" that Byron aka Unknown was talking about is Mario's statement (in documents submitted to a court) that travel to Pakistan was prohibited. An honest person would admit that they were wrong and move on. Mario has instead tried to cover up a blatant falsehood which is in the record and unequivocal.

Are you deliberately being obtuse or do you have some problem with reading comprehension?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon, whose real name is Bryan Gene Olson,

I of III

Dr. Conspiracy and his Obot group, which includes you and Slartibartfast, are obsessed with the fact that people have raised questions regarding Obama’s travel to Pakistan in 1981. In order to confuse the issue, you engage in both straw man and red herring arguments regarding Obama’s 1981 travel there.

First, let us examine the straw man. Dr. Conspiracy accuses me, not Charles J. Kerchner Jr., of writing in my complaint to the court filed in the Kerchner v. Obama and Congress case of saying that there was a government-imposed “legal ban” preventing Americans from traveling to Pakistan. In your famous words, Mr. Olson, that is not what I said: Again, here is what I wrote in the complaint:

“54. Obama stated publicly in San Francisco to a group of voters in 2008 that he traveled to Pakistan and we know that at the time such travel was prohibited to Americans using an U.S. passport.”

As can be plainly seen, I did not state that anyone, let alone a government, imposed any “legal ban” on travel to Pakistan. Plainly and on the face of the complaint, I did not state that there was any government-imposed “legal ban” for Americans wanting to travel to Pakistan. Rather, I said that travel was prohibited there. Any average American would not have traveled to Pakistan in 1981 because of the country condition then existing. Nevertheless, Dr. Conspiracy wrote and published that I wrote in the complaint that there was a government-imposed “legal ban” for Americans wanting to travel to Pakistan. You have repeated the statement. It is a lie. I never said in the complaint that there was a government-imposed “travel ban” for American who may have wanted to travel to Pakistan. Even though the complaint clearly does not say what you say it says, Dr. Conspiracy and you persist in your lie about what the complaint says. Now you even lamely attempt to bring in extraneous information from the internet to try to convince us as to what I wrote in the complaint. Your approach is pathetic, given that people can simply read what I wrote to see if Dr. Conspiracy is telling the truth which he is not.

Second, let us now examine how the Obots’ arguments regarding Obama’s Pakistani travel is also a red herring, designed to divert attention to the real issues raised by his travel there. Obama traveled to Pakistan in 1981 after visiting his mother and half-sister in Indonesia. In his April 6, 2008 speech in San Francisco, Obama said: “I traveled to Pakistan when I was in college -- I knew what Sunni and Shia was [sic] before I joined the Senate Foreign Relations Committee." I guess we can surmise from his having such in depth knowledge about the difference between Sunni and Shia (an understanding that according to him not even Hillary Clinton or McCain had) that he spent a lot of his time while in Pakistan studying the subject.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

In 1981, Pakistan was on the State Department list for “travel advisory.” \\Secretary\legalfiles\Political\Obama\Pakistan\Travel Advisory Sheets Archive.mht; http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/travel/cis/southasia/TA_Pakistan1981.pdf. "The advisory is vital to ensure travelers are well-prepared," insist the State Department travel advisory. " "We provide advice to citizens so they will be well-prepared," added the State Department advisory. http://www.eturbonews.com/7010/us-state-department-travel-advisory-london-dangerous-place-travel. “Travel warnings, which the State Department has been making public to American travelers since 1978 and which cover everything from civil unrest to health concerns, originate with the U.S. embassy or consulates of a specific country. Then the Bureau of Consular Affairs—and, occasionally, other agencies—weighs in, with the final decision coming from the office of the Undersecretary of State. The State Department subsequently revisits the warnings, usually every six months.” http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/state-department-travel-warnings-explained/1. That the State Department did not technically put a “ban” on travel to Pakistan does not mean that it was not recommended for Americans to go there in 1981.

When Obama traveled to Pakistan in 1981, the country was going through a civil war and was under martial law. It was experiencing serious social, political, and religious upheaval. A few years earlier, General Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq had overthrown the government of Bhutto by way of coup. Zia-ul-Haq even created a separate electoral system for non-Muslims. Courts were created to make sure the country’s laws were not repugnant to Islam. Millions of Afghan refugees were living in Pakistan and the Afghan Mujahedeen operated in Pakistan in their war with the Soviets. Government-issued visas to foreign visitors were good only for 30 days. The Government had in place Exit from Pakistan (Control) Ordinance, 1981, which allowed the Government to prevent any person who was in Pakistan from leaving the country even though they had valid travel documents without, in the name of "public interest," even giving a reason for the action. Any person violating that ordinance faced 5 years of imprisonment. Because of these conditions, travel by an American using an U.S. passport was very risky to say the least.

Also, there is currently a U.S. State Department travel warning for Americans wanting to travel to Pakistan. “The Department of State warns U.S. citizens against non-essential travel to Pakistan in light of the threat of terrorist activity. This replaces the Travel Warning dated February 25, 2009, updates information on security incidents and reminds U.S. citizens of ongoing security concerns in Pakistan.” http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/tw/tw_930.html. Hence, while there was no government-imposed “legal ban” on travel by Americans to Pakistan in 1981, no sane-thinking American would have traveled there unless one had a compelling reason to do so such as for some close family need, personal ideology, or work assignment.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

Furthermore, if there was no problem traveling to Pakistan in 1981 as the Obots suggest, they should be willing to answer the following questions and provide the requested information:

1. How many Americans with U.S. passports went there in 1981? I have repeatedly asked Dr. Conspiracy and his Obot followers to provide this information. To date they have produced nothing.

2. What function (job category) did these Americans have before entering the country?

3. What was the purpose of their trip there?

4. How long did they stay there?

5. How many Americans were refused visas to enter the country?

6. Why were they refused those visas?

7. What passport did Obama use to travel into Pakistan? I have repeatedly asked Dr. Conspiracy and his Obot followers to provide this information. To date they have produced nothing. This information is very important since the underlying question regarding Obama’s constitutional eligibility for the office of President is the nature of his citizenship and what citizenships he claimed over the years.

8. How did the young Obama finance his trip to Indonesia, India, and Pakistan?

9. Why has Obama since mentioning his Pakistani trip just once never spoken about it again even though there have been so many public inquiries about it?

10. Why did the Obama campaign not respond to an invitation to comment on some of the speculation surrounding the visit to Pakistan or to provide further details about the trip?

11. Was Obama one of the many who--in the words of veteran security analyst, Bahukutumbi Raman, a former Indian counterterrorism chief--visited Pakistan to feel the greatness of the Afghani jihad against communism and their fascination for Abdullah Azzam?

12. For how long did Obama stay in Pakistan? This would shed much light on how he could afford to be there and for what purpose.

13. With whom did Obama visit while he was in Pakistan? If he visited politicians while there, how was he able to make such political connections?

14. Why did Obama not mention his Pakistani trip and the in-depth religious knowledge that he gained from it in his autobiographies?

So as you see, playing word games with Obama’s Pakistan travel in 1981 gets you nowhere in light of the realty that existed in Pakistan in 1981 and all the unanswered questions that Obama’s visit there raises.

ajtelles said...

silly S...,

Slartibartfast, aka S..., on June 12, 2014 at 11:09 AM, said...

>> "Art,
>> TJ said the following:

[...]

S..., they you concluded with this -

>> "Unless and until "Wilted Rose" tells me differently,
>> I'll use feminine pronouns to refer to her."

S..., all you need to do is check out his blog page. Right click on his handle "Wilted Rose" then open the tab then click on "about" and you can read if for yourself, he identified himself as "gender male".

S..., if this is any indication of your depth of inquiry into an issue, no wonder you persist in promoting the Dr. Conspiracy theory, the myth of "one-citizen-parent" and the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent makes a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

S..., instead, why not look closer into John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the 1700s understanding that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child, and in the 1700's understanding of marriage and citizenship, ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents could produce a child who was a "natural born Citizen" from birth on ONLY U.S. soil because the parents were married to each other BEFORE the child was born."

S..., dittos, here are your words comin' back at you -

>> "Are you deliberately being obtuse
>> or do you have some problem
>> with reading comprehension?"


S..., well phrased, and again dittos, if I do say so myself.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union" as President Abraham Lincoln called it in his 1861 first inaugural address [ http://originalbirtherdocument9.blogspot.com/ ]

Unknown said...

My friends,

Just because it is on the internet doesn't necessarily mean that it is true.

TJ got a short lecture on internet privacy, but everything is OK, he's a bright young man, and will probably keep personal information to himself on comment forums such as this one from now on.

Personally, I never put accurate personal information on the net, and I also encourage others to do the same. There is little enough privacy as it is.

With a little effort it is easy to get enough info on a person to steal their identity. I decided to try to protect myself.

I could tell you all about myself, but all you know with any certainty right now is that I am female, thanks to TJ.

Deduce what you will. It matters not to me.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

My policy is to take mundane personal facts that people reveal at face value (I'll use whatever personal pronouns someone prefers or, if I don't know, whichever seems to be most correct). I was not attempting to invade your privacy or pry in any way, just trying to be respectful by addressing you properly. As for TJ, there's nothing wrong with making mistakes---just it not learning from them (see Art or Mario or Adrien for examples of how not to do this).

Art,

You said:

"S[lartibartfast], if this is any indication of your depth of inquiry into an issue, no wonder you persist in promoting the Dr. Conspiracy theory, the myth of "one-citizen-parent" and the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent makes a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS."

It's a trivial little thing, but let's examine this further...

You saw that I had changed my behavior (switching the gender of pronouns) and assumed (correctly) that there was a reason for this. Rather than trying to find evidence of the cause of my behavior (which would have been as simple as rereading TJ's comment), you decided to do your own analysis by clicking on a link to a profile which, I would guess, very few people fill out or care about. On the strength of this fairly unreliable information, you decided that I was wrong (you probably cannot conceive of the possibility that I am right about anything) and, what's more, I was wrong because I didn't do the "deep" analysis that led you to your predetermined conclusion.

With Wilted Rose's comments, it is clear that your analysis is wrong and mine was correct. What does this suggest to you regarding the validity of your methodology vs. mine?

ajtelles said...

thanks...

Wilted Rose, thanks for the clarification about your handle and gender and explanation.

Who wouda thunk that a single word on the "about" page misidentifying a persons gender would be necessary to protect a persons identity? But, we all have our reasons for identifying or not identifying ourselves. If I worked for the federal government, or a school district, or a politician or something like these, I would also not Identify myself.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

assume...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., on June 12, 2014 at 1:48 PM, you assume without cause that I did not read TJ's comment where Wilted Rose was outed as female. I assumed with cause that TJ did not know that Wilted Rose used the "gender male" identifier on the blogger "about" page. You did not even check the "about" page.

YOUR assumption was without factual cause, checking the "about" page, and you just assumed that TJ was correct that Wilted Rose was female because roses are usually associated with females.

You assumption of TJ's use of the female appellation indicates your habit of assuming what is not so based on the facts. The "facts" in this context being checking the "about" page before accepting TJ's use of the female designation.

S..., you just got lucky in your assumption. So, what else is new? Sometimes luck happens.

I assumed that "gender male" on the "about" page was accurate because, well, why hide gender?

I was correct in assuming that "gender male" was accurate, but I was wrong because I did not know that "gender male" was a camouflage. Did you, S.... No, you didn't read the "about" page, but you did read TJ's comment. You assumed that TJ was correct and that I was wrong. As it turned out, TJ knew Wilted Rose, but not only did you NOT know that TJ knew Wilted Rose, you must assumed he was right in using the female gender. You just got lucky. Sometimes luck happens.

S..., your reasoning is informative, so let's look at it.

>> "Art,
>>You said:

>> "S[lartibartfast], if this is any indication of your depth of inquiry into an issue,
>> no wonder you persist in promoting the Dr. Conspiracy theory,
>> the myth of "one-citizen-parent"
>> and the Obama birth narrative that
>> ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent makes a person
>> a "natural born Citizen"
>> and eligible to be POTUS."


S..., you deliberately obfuscate by not including the historical reason for describing the "one-citizen-parent" theory is a myth.

This is the paragraph after the paragraph you quoted above -

PS. For Wilted Rose,.

THIS bold text below is the reason that I am taking the opportunity of your correcting the public record about the "about" page "gender male" identification.

The 1700s historical record is irreffutable, and S..., Dr. Conspiracy and the Obama-birthers NEVER attempt to refute the 1700s historical record. They, as S... has done here, simply obfuscate and change the topic, and start writing about trivialities.

>> "S..., instead, why not look closer
>> into John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen"
>> with the 1700s understanding that
>> the citizenship of the husband
>> determined the citizenship of the wife,
>> AND the citizenship of BOTH parents
>> determined the citizenship of the child,
>> and in the 1700's understanding of marriage and citizenship,
>> ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents
>> could produce a child
>> who was a "natural born Citizen" from birth on ONLY U.S. soil
>> because the parents were married to each other
>> BEFORE the child was born."

ajtelles said...

assume...

2/

S..., then you continue with what you think is an examination of trivia.

>> "It's a trivial little thing,
>> but let's examine this further...

>> You saw that I had changed my behavior
>> (switching the gender of pronouns)
>> and assumed (correctly)
>> that there was a reason for this.
>> Rather than trying to find evidence
>> of the cause of my behavior
>> (which would have been as simple as rereading TJ's comment),
>> you decided to do your own analysis
>> by clicking on a link to a profile which,
>> I would guess,
>> very few people fill out or care about.
>> On the strength of this fairly unreliable information,
>> you decided that I was wrong
>> (you probably cannot conceive of the possibility that
>> I am right about anything)
>> and, what's more,
>> I was wrong because
>> I didn't do the "deep" analysis
>> that led you to your predetermined conclusion.


[S..., what "predetermined conclusion" could a person have if "wilted rose" is, as you wrote previously, usually associated with females?

S..., since I did not know, I did not have a "predetermined conclusion" as you did in assuming that "wilted rose" was a female's appellation.]


S..., you continue with -

>> "With Wilted Rose's comments,
>> it is clear that your analysis is wrong and
>> mine was correct.
>> What does this suggest to you
>> regarding the validity of your methodology vs. Mine?

ajtelles said...

assume...

3/

S..., your "analysis" was assumptive and not based on a fact.
You just got lucky.
Sometimes luck happens.

My "analysis" was wrong even though it was based on a fact, because the "fact" was deliberately camouflaged.

S..., did John Jay deliberately camouflage his original intent and original genesis meaning in underlinging "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the 1700s understanding that birth was to be ONLY on U.S. soil, and the 1700s understanding that birth was to be ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents who were married to each other BEFORE their children were born?

S..., did John Jay deliberately camouflage within the word "born" that he really meant birth ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent?

S..., did John Jay deliberately imply ONLY "one-citizen-parent" even though he, being a 1700s intellectually and politically astute original birther, aka an original Founder and original Framer and original contributor to The Federalist, and even though he knew that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child?

BOTH parents.
BOTH U.S. citizen.
BOTH U.S. "citizen" parents are needed to produce a U.S. "citizen" child who is a U.S. "natural born Citizen" child.

BOTH parents. Right?

ONE U.S. "citizen" can NOT produce a U.S. "natural born Citizen" child. Right?

Wilted Rose, this is the reason I spent time on what is really a trivial issue. Not wrong, or bad. Just trivial. And if any lurkers happen to read and learn, that will be time well spent with this pinata. Smash the pinata and out comes the good stuff. The "good stuff" is the 1700 historical record about citizenship that is irrefutable.

Trivial but still an excellent "pinata" opportunity to reval the mythology being promoted by S..., Dr. Conspiracy and the Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers who persist in promoting the theory, the myth, that ONLY one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

It is a myth because John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" has historical support in the 1700s understanding that the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

BOTH parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

not trivia...

Mario, Slartibartfast, aka S..., still has not answered your June 11, 2014 at 11:03 AM question about "natural born Citizen" in Article II and whether or not the 14th Amendment repealed OR amended Section 1 Clause 5. Oh, sure, he answered "no," but that's it.

Your question to S... -

>> "Now I have another question for you:
>>Did the Fourteenth Amendment
>>repeal or amend
>>Article II’s natural born citizen clause?


It must be that he can not explain his "no" to both repeal OR amend and at the same time defend the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent makes a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

S..., what does "no" mean?

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, your response on June 12, 2014 at 11:42 AM to Unknown #11 will probably not be answered either.

>> "Dr. Conspiracy and his Obot group, which includes you and Slartibartfast,
>> are obsessed with the fact that people have raised questions
>> regarding Obama’s travel to Pakistan in 1981.
>> In order to confuse the issue,
>> you engage in both straw man and red herring arguments
>> regarding Obama’s 1981 travel there.

Question #7 that you posted on June 12, 2014 at 11:44 AM is critical -

>> "7. What passport did Obama use to travel into Pakistan?
>> I have repeatedly asked Dr. Conspiracy and his Obot followers to provide this information.
>> To date they have produced nothing.
>> This information is very important
>> since the underlying question
>> regarding Obama’s constitutional eligibility
>> for the office of President
>> is the nature of his citizenship and
>> what citizenships he claimed over the years. "


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Jefferson said in his 1779 citizenship statute (formatted by me for easier reading and comprehension):

BE it enacted by the General Assembly,

(1) That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth;

(2) and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act;

(3) and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same, other than alien enemies, and shall before any court of record, give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation that they intend to reside therein; and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;

(4) and all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father if living, or otherwise their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother,
shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed;

(5) and all others not being citizens of any the United States of America shall be deemed aliens….

Can anyone explain why Jefferson in (1) used the word “persons” and required persons born in Virginia to be "white," but in (4) he did not use “persons” but rather “infants” and did not require that they be white.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Here is an interesting quote from Secretary of State, William L. Marcy:

“In reply to the inquiry which is made by you in the same letter whether ‘the children of foreign parents born in the United States, but brought to the country of which the father is a subject, and continuing to reside within the jurisdiction of their father’s country, are entitled to protection as citizens of the United States,’ I have to observe that it is presumed that, according to the common law, any person born in the United States, unless he be born in one of the foreign legations therein, may be considered a citizen thereof until he formally renounces his citizenship. There is not, however, any United States statute containing a provision upon this subject, nor, so far as I am aware, has there been any judicial decision in regard to it.”

William L. Marcy, Sec. of State, to Mr. Mason, June 6, 1854. MSS. Inst., France.

Note that Mr. Marcy only “presumed” that under the common law a child born in the United States to alien parents was a citizen. We know from the U.S. Supreme Court in Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1857) that such children were aliens (decided before the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment of 1868 went into effect).

The U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) said that they were not even citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment.

We know from the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) that the common law did not so provide. On the contrary, under the common law, which was American common law and not English common law, such children were “aliens or foreigners” who could be naturalized after birth under Acts of Congress. The word of the U.S. Supreme Court trumps that of any other authority (Secretary of State, Attorney General, etc.) who may have thought that these children were citizens.

It was not until U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) that such children were accepted as “citizens of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment (not to be confused with American common law natural born citizens under Article II).

Also note that Mr. Marcy said that there was no Act of Congress addressing the status of children born in the United States to alien parents. So, he confirmed that no such statue declared such children to be citizens of the United States.

What strikes me as significant is that if those children had been natural born citizens, neither Mr. Marcy nor any other authority would have had to presume what their citizenship status was. He also would not have had to expect to see an Act of Congress making those children citizens of the United States. Finally, Mr. Marcy missed the simple point that there was an Act of Congress dealing with the issue. That Act was the Naturalization Act of 1802 in which Congress, like it did in the Acts of 1790 and 1795, treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. That is the reason that there was no Act of Congress declaring as these authorities had wanted these children as citizens. Congress had already spoken and it was not what these authorities had wanted. Indeed, Congress said that these children were aliens and could become citizens upon the naturalization of their parents.
Given this legislative and court history and real or feigned doubt regarding their citizenship status, there simply is no way that a child born in the United States to alien parents was a natural born citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Let us assume that you are a math student going for your Ph.D. in Mathematics at Obama World Institute of Mathematics. You are taking a multiple choice exam on set theory. You are instructed that for each question you are to provide only one answer which must be the best answer of the choices provided. Here is one of the questions of the exam:

-1. Natural born citizens is:

-a. A subset of citizens.
-b. A proper subset of citizens.
-c. A superset of citizens.
-d. None of the above.

Please provide your answer.

Ray said...

>> Can anyone explain why Jefferson in (1) used the word “persons” and required persons born in Virginia to be "white," but in (4) he did not use “persons” but rather “infants” and did not require that they be white.

Because (1) is retrospective/retroactive and (4) is prospective, relative to passage of the act.

ajtelles said...

"White Persons" & Infant Citizens...

Mario, on June 12, 2014 at 7:57 PM, you asked a question after itemizing into 5 points Jefferson's 1779 statute.

Since I am not taking a side, if there is a side, other than the side that comes from simply analyzing the internal content, here goes.

You asked -

>> "Can anyone explain why Jefferson
>> in (1) used the word “persons”
>> and required persons born in Virginia to be "white,"
>> but in (4) he did not use “persons” but rather “infants”
>> and did not require that they be white."


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

5 Points -

>>" Jefferson said in his 1779 citizenship statute (formatted by me for easier reading and comprehension):

>> BE it enacted by the General Assembly,

>> "(1) That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth;

>> (2) and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act;

>> (3) and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same, other than alien enemies, and shall before any court of record, give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation that they intend to reside therein; and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;

>> (4) and all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth, or who migrate hither, their father if living, or otherwise their mother becoming a citizen, or who migrate hither without father or mother,
>> shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed;

>> (5) and all others not being citizens of any the United States of America shall be deemed aliens….

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

"White Persons" & Infant Citizens...

2/

My observation -

Based on the words themselves, not colons, semicolons or commas, "white persons" in point #1 obviously means simply "white persons" in 1700s America, and "infants wheresoever born" is simply a reference to the infants of the "white persons" in 1779 America, whether or not the "white persons" father, "other than alien enemies," was alive or dead, and whether or not the "white person" mother was alive or dead. The "infants wheresoever born ... who migrate hither without father or mother" could ONLY be "deemed citizens" if they were ALSO "white persons" in 1779 America.

In #4, the "white persons" mother, with the natural assumption that she was already married to the "white persons" father, and thus also being, in the 1700s "... a citizen at the time of their [the infant's] birth," ALL of the "white persons" mentioned, with the implicit assumption also being that the infants were infants of "white persons,' all were "...deemed citizens" and not aliens.

For what it's worth, and without knowing the point of controversy, if there is one, it seems that with the understanding in 1700s America that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, and the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child, in the context of the "white persons" infant, the "white persons" children were "...deemed citizens" in 1779 America.

Mario, what the 1779 Jefferson statute and the 14th Amendment have in common is the 1700s understanding that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child, 1868 "white persons" or 1868 negros—until the 1922 Cable Act.

BOTH parents.

And AFTER passage of the 1922 Cable Act?

BOTH parents.

And thanks to abolitionist President Abraham Lincoln and his longtime abolitionist Secretary of State William Seward shepherding the 13th Amendment, freeing the negro slaves, passed in the Senate April 8, 1864, passed in the House January 31, 1865, adopted December 6, 1865; and thanks to Secretary of State William Seward being held over by President Andrew Johnson, adopting the 14th Amendment on July 9, 1868, granting citizenship to the now free negros; and followed by the 15th Amendment, ratified February 3, 1870, granting the right to vote to the "citizen" negros, we have clarity about the original intent and original genesis meaning of the 1700s Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

BOTH parents, white and negro, and any body color. ALL are born "natural born Citizen" when born to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE their child is born on U.S. soil or jurisdiction.

BOTH parents.

The original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" in Article II was not amended or repealed by the 14th Amendment.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Mario, regarding the confusion about the first and fourth clauses of Jefferson's citizenship act; I suspect you are being thrown off by the indefinite language of the first as far as its relationship to Time.
I think that you are thinking that it is a prescription from the present forward when it is instead an acknowledgement of the past.

That is seen in its wording of "born" by itself instead of "born following the adoption of this act". It's wording does not discriminate as to past, present or future, so it must be accepted for all three.
That tells us that all "citizens" are white, and that answers the question about the 4th clause. Any child born of citizens anywhere on Earth is a citizen also (by the natural law of natural membership).

Being born of citizens and not merely "persons" determines the race be white.
That was jus sanguinis, while the 1st clause was jus soli, hence the use of "persons". The person (alien-fathered) so born is granted citizenship via common law tradition despite being born of aliens.

Anonymous said...

Mario, I should have added to my explanation the punctuation I employed that you rejected publishing, it explains in the clearest terms what was being conveyed, using parenthesis instead mere commas:

(4) and all infants wheresoever born, whose father (if living, -or otherwise whose mother) was a citizen at the time of their birth, (that includes born in Virginia, -some 98% of the population, -jus sanguinis being the principle)
-or who migrate hither, their father (if living, or otherwise their mother) becoming a citizen,

-or who migrate hither without father or mother,
shall be deemed citizens...

That sort of punctuation makes its meaning crystal clear whereas the plethora of commas tends to confuse.

Ray said...

(1) all white persons born within the commonwealth
(2) all who have resided within the commonwealth for the two years prior to passage of the act
(3) all who after passage of the act immigrate and take an oath

are citizens

and (4)

a) all born with citizen parentage - wheresoever born - are citizens. The citizen parents are any of (1), (2), or (3).

b) all infants (minor children) whose parents immigrate and became a citizen under (2) or (3)

(5) all others... aliens

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Ray, Mr. Nash, and Art,

Thank you for your thoughtful answers. Here is another question.

Why did Jefferson in (1), when referring to “white persons,” say born in Virginia, but in (4), when referring to “infants,” say “wheresoever born” rather than born out of Virginia? After all, wheresoever includes Virginia, but he had already covered those born in Virginia in (1). Why would he write the law in such a manner as to cover persons born in Virginia two times, first when they were “white persons” in (1) and second when they were “infants” in (4)?

Ray said...

(1) and (2) are grandfathered classes of persons

After passage of the act citizenship is jus sanguinis based.

After passage of the act aliens must take an oath to become citizens, their children obtain citizenship derivatively at that time.

After passage of the act an alien giving birth in Virginia gives birth to an alien. Prior to passage of the act an alien who becomes a citizen in (2) is naturalized, their child obtains citizenship derivatively at that time (otherwise would be absurd).

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Jefferson said in his 1779 citizenship statute (formatted by me for easier reading and comprehension):

BE it enacted by the General Assembly,

(1) That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth;

(2) and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act;

---------------------------

Transcription error.

---------------------------

(1) ends with a comma, not a semicolon.

(1) and (2) are a single thought, with the two phrases separated by a comma.

That completely changes the meaning.

It is saying that all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth AND have resided there for two years before the passage of the act are citizens. The comma is there to separate the two related phrases of this independent clause.

In other words, if you were white, born there, and had lived there for the two years immediately preceding the passage of the act, you were a citizen.

The current citizens were grandfathered in, then the people who would be considered citizens after the passage of the act were specified.

ajtelles said...

why...

Mario, just some quick thoughts about your questions on June 12, 2014 at 11:48 PM -

Why #1 -

In (1) - "white persons" who are "born in Virginia" obviously mean born in Virginia.

In (4) - "infants" who are "wheresoever born" obviously means born inside or outside of Virginia.

Why #2 -

First. "white persons" in (1) is precedent to clarify "father," "mother," and "infant."

In 1700s America, the citizenship of the family unit was understood as being dependent on the citizenship of the "white persons" husband of one wife, and the citizenship of BOTH "white persons" parents determined the citizenship of the "white persons" "citizen" child.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Man, there's a lot of presumptuous error going on with those answers. You cannot read into the act what is not there nor read out of it what is there.

1. That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth" means "whenever born" because it totally lacks any reference to time. It doesn't say "formerly born" or "who were born".

It just says born. That is Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow. What that means is that the 100+ year old common law of native-birth citizenship was codified as not just being "the rule" or custom but was henceforth the Law.

"After passage of the act an alien giving birth in Virginia gives birth to an alien."

I presume that that has never, in three hundred years, been the law in Virginia. But I also presume that from the beginning it was the policy of the new central government as decided by the Attorney General and/ or the State Dept.
It was not bound to nor limited by any colonial or British custom. It started with a clean slate, and wrote on it with the pen of Natural Law, -not British common law.

As for the semi-colon, WR needs to read (or re-read) what I wrote about that. Otherwise the likely truth will remain unknown to her.

She makes a blind and false leap of presumption by dropping words that are integral to its meaning: "all who", -as in (2)"; and all who have..."
"and" is not connecting 1 with 2, but with the total list of possibilities, -any of which could have been placed first or second.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

I of II

You are correct about the comma after “commonwealth.” I already corrected myself on the comma after you brought that to my attention, but then in my new comment I copied the wrong version rather than the corrected one. In any event, I do not think that it makes a difference in that particular statement whether a comma or semicolon is used, given the language choice. Here is the statement:

(1) “That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth, and all who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act...”

To read this statement the way you do, i.e., that Jefferson is referring only to person born in Virginia throughout the statement and not also to a second class of persons introduced by “and all who…,” who were not born in Virginia but resided there two years prior to the passing of the act, Jefferson would have written:

“That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth and who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act...”

or

“That all white persons born within the territory of this commonwealth, who have resided therein two years next before the passing of this act...”

There is no reason to say “, and all” unless he intended to include that other class of persons who were not born in Virginia, but rather only resided there for at least two years prior to the passage of the act. Furthermore, why would Jefferson require someone who was born in Virginia to reside there for a least two years prior to the passage of the act? What would be the policy or purpose for such a rule? It makes much better sense to see Jefferson covering persons who were born in Virginia and person who simply were residing in Virginia for at least two years prior to the passage of his act. All of the colonial and state naturalization acts granted citizenship to persons who simply resided in a colony or state for a required time period. With your reading of Jefferson’s act, you are excluding this class of naturalized citizen from Jefferson’s act. He could not have excluded such persons, for it cannot be denied that there would have been persons residing in Virginia who were not born there prior to the passage of the act. Jefferson would have had to give those persons some status under his act. I therefore cannot accept the way you are reading (1). But that is not to say that I do not agree with your conclusion as to what Jefferson meant by his act.

This leads me to further questions. Not counting the requirements to be met for one naturalizing after birth, did Jefferson write his statute such that he meant to control citizenship in Virginia through the requirements of either (1) (white persons born in Virginia) or (4) (birth by an infant anywhere in the world other than Virginia to citizen parents), with the place of birth deciding whether (1) or (4) applied. So, if one was born in Virginia, (1) would apply and the citizenship of the child’s parents would have been irrelevant, but if one was born out of Virginia, (4) would apply, in which case the infant had to be born to a citizen father, if alive, or citizen mother, if the father was dead. This is the Obot position.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Or did Jefferson mean to control future citizenship in Virginia through the requirements of (4) (birth to citizen parents regardless of the place of birth)? So, regardless of where one was born (in or out of Virginia), one had to be born to citizen parents to become a citizen of Virginia. Is it reasonable to interpret Jefferson’s act so as to read (1) out of it because (4) says “infants wheresoever born?” Does the word “infants” trump the word “persons” in all future cases regardless of the place of a child’s birth? If it does, how does it do it?

When a human is born, is he more an “infant” than he or she is a person? Another way to look at it is that all infants are persons, but not all persons are infants. This leads to the conclusion that there were white persons in being who were not infants when Jefferson wrote the act. Not being infants, these persons fell under the requirements of (1). There were also infants in being when the act went into effect. Also, for anyone else to be born, they become infants the moment they were born. Being infants, they would necessarily fall under the requirements of (4), meaning they had to be born to citizen parents and not just be born in Virginia which is what applied in (1) for white persons born in Virginia. I say citizen parents (meaning father and mother) because given Jefferson’s requirement, i.e., if the father was alive, then a citizen father, but if the father was dead, a citizen mother, the wife would have gotten her citizenship from the husband and if he died, she would have still been a citizen. This demonstrates that both father and mother had to be citizens in order for such a scheme to work.

These questions and answers lead me to conclude that Jefferson grandfathered white adults in being for citizenship by mere birth in Virginia (jus soli). But he made all infants, regardless of where born, citizens of Virginia only if they were born to parents who were themselves citizens of Virginia at the time of the child’s birth. With the requirement that infants had to be born to citizen parents, it was not necessary for Jefferson to require that those infants be white like he required of those simply born in Virginia (with no citizen parent requirement) in (1). This is jus sanguinis citizenship, not jus soli.

The conclusion from all this is that Jefferson’s citizenship act of 1779 is further undeniable proof that the Framers defined a natural born citizen as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Slartibartfast said...

I used most of what little time I had today to spank Adrien's claptrap over at the Fogbow, but here are some quick hits:

Mario,

You asked, "Can anyone explain why Jefferson in (1) used the word “persons” and required persons born in Virginia to be "white," but in (4) he did not use “persons” but rather “infants” and did not require that they be white."

Yes I can. The rule in (1) applied to those born in the past (who were no longer infants) as well as to those born in the future, so "persons" was used. Not only was (4) referring to the time of birth (even if a person was born before the statute, its conditions were required to have obtained when they were an infant), but it was only applicable to the children of at least one citizen, and blacks couldn't be citizens.

Curiously, the way I read this, Thomas Jefferson's children born overseas to his African-American mistress would have been citizens. I would also point out that in those times the children of white women were considered white.

As to what Mr. Marcy said, he wasn't aware of any judicial rulings because the SOCTUS wouldn't settle the matter for another 85 years in Perkins v. Elg.

Wheresoever they disagree, Wong Kim Ark trumps The Slaughterhouse Cases because 1873 < 1898.

When you say things like "if those children had been natural born citizens, neither Mr. Marcy nor any other authority would have had to presume what their citizenship status was" you are playing your begging the question game. There is absolutely no reason they couldn't have believed that they were either natural born citizens or not citizens at all. After all, this was exactly what ALL OF THE PARTIES TO Wong Kim Ark BELIEVED.

And finally, your math question: If multiple answers are allowed (i.e. the rules are "choose all correct answers), this is a perfectly fine question (and something I would expect in an undergraduate set theory course) and the only correct answer is both "a" and "b". If not, I would go to the professor and explain that both "a" and "b" were correct. If the professor did not immediately recognize that I was correct (and could prove it), then I would go to the Director of Graduate Studies or the Department Chair to make sure that they understood that the guy (or gal) they had teaching set theory was going senile. Seriously, there has never been a graduate student in mathematics, nor will there be, that doesn't understand this perfectly. What you are suggesting is like an English literature professor not knowing their ABCs.

I know that you just assume that everything I say is wrong, but you are making yourself look like a complete fool here. Once again, I can prove that you are demonstrably wrong and everything I've said is correct. I strongly suggest you quit talking about subjects where objective truths can be established---your dishonesty sticks out like a sore thumb.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

As it becomes more and more apparent how far out of your depth you are, it is getting embarrassing.

You say that the following question is critical: "What passport did [President] Obama use to travel into Pakistan?"

I've got some questions of my own:

Is there any reason to suspect that President Obama could not have traveled to Pakistan on a US passport?

No.

According to the NY Times article, he could, in fact do that. Since he was a seasoned international traveler and, according to the US State Department, a US citizen, we know he had a passport of some sort and was entitled to a US passport. There is, in fact, absolutely no reason to suspect that President Obama traveled to Pakistan on anything other than a US passport.

Is there any reason that anyone should be required to show their records on the basis of a lack of suspicious activity?

No.

In fact, there is a little thing called the 4th Amendment to the US Constitution which basically means that no judge can even order those records (which are sealed by the same privacy laws which protect your own records) to be turned over without probable cause (presidenting while black doesn't count, by the way). Mario has as much right to ask for President Obama's passport information as I have to demand that Mario have a colonoscopy to determine if his head is lodged in his rectum.


Regarding my response to Mario's question, Mario asked: "Did the Fourteenth Amendment repeal or amend Article II’s natural born citizen clause? Do not just tell me as you always say that the amendment did not change preexisting law. I want you to specifically address whether it changed Article II’s natural born citizen clause."

My response was "No." Which part of "no" don't you understand? Was it not clear that I believe that the 14th Amendment didn't repeal or amend the eligibility clause in Article II? How could I have made this response more comprehensible or unambiguous?

The predetermined conclusion that you had wasn't about the gender of Wilted Rose, it was that I was wrong. Furthermore, you claim that I made an assumption and "just got lucky", which is also wrong. I didn't make an assumption, I simply changed my mind on the basis of new evidence. This is exactly what one should do when one receives new evidence: reconsider their conclusions in light of the new evidence. You have no understanding of critical thinking, just an unassailable faith that President Obama is illegitimate and anyone who says otherwise is complicit. I think you will find the biased rationalizations that you produce of absolutely no use when it comes to making accurate predictions about anything.

I assumed it was likely that TJ was telling the truth that Wilted Rose was his mother because that seemed an implausible thing to lie about as well as consistent with the evidence. No, I never looked at the "about" page as it seemed a much less reliable source of information (or it would have if I had thought about it).

If the 1700s historical record is irrefutable, then I guess you can show me evidence of where the law of the federal government or that of any state was changed from the pre-revolutionary standard which made the native-born children of aliens natural born. If you can't show us where the law changed (hint: the Constitution doesn't say in words what a natural born citizen is, so it couldn't have changed the definition), then isn't it overwhelmingly probable that it didn't change?

On the subject of set theory, everything I said has been demonstrably correct, as is everything TJ and Byron said. Nothing Mario said on the topic is worth reading.

I also see that you are still making arguments of the caliber of "I know you are but what am I?". Just a hint, but that isn't considered an effective debating technique once you leave kindergarden.

Unknown said...

Mario,

You are correct that I made it incorrectly restricted to just those who were born in the commonwealth. The grandfathered section included those who were already citizens of the commonwealth as well. I missed the "all" in the second phrase of the first clause.

My error.

I was concentrating too much on the semicolon and misspoke/wrote.

Anyhow, the first clause (the section before the semicolon) has the grandfathered individuals, and the remainder specifies who will be citizens after the passage of the act.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Dr. Conspiracy,

I am directing this comment to you because I know that you are a mathematician and you have supporters who are also in that field. I asked Slartibartfast on this thread:

Let us assume that you are a math student going for your Ph.D. in Mathematics at Obama World Institute of Mathematics. You are taking a multiple choice exam on set theory. You are instructed that for each question you are to provide only one answer which must be the best answer of the choices provided. Here is one of the questions of the exam:

-1. Natural born citizens is:

-a. A subset of citizens.
-b. A proper subset of citizens.
-c. A superset of citizens.
-d. None of the above.

Please provide your answer.
=====

Here is his answer:

And finally, your math question: If multiple answers are allowed (i.e. the rules are "choose all correct answers), this is a perfectly fine question (and something I would expect in an undergraduate set theory course) and the only correct answer is both "a" and "b". If not, I would go to the professor and explain that both "a" and "b" were correct. If the professor did not immediately recognize that I was correct (and could prove it), then I would go to the Director of Graduate Studies or the Department Chair to make sure that they understood that the guy (or gal) they had teaching set theory was going senile. Seriously, there has never been a graduate student in mathematics, nor will there be, that doesn't understand this perfectly. What you are suggesting is like an English literature professor not knowing their ABCs.

I know that you just assume that everything I say is wrong, but you are making yourself look like a complete fool here. Once again, I can prove that you are demonstrably wrong and everything I've said is correct. I strongly suggest you quit talking about subjects where objective truths can be established---your dishonesty sticks out like a sore thumb.

=====

Like I said, I know that you are a mathematician. I also know that you have taken many multiple choice exams in your life and that during those exams, you followed the reasonable instructions that were given to you in answering the questions rather than argue with the instructor about them. I am also sure that you experienced many exams in which you were instructed to provide the one (1) “best” answer to the question from the choices provided. So, I will ask you the same question that I asked Slartibartfast (stated above). Please provide your one (1) “best” answer to the question from the four possibilities provided.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

Notice how Slartibartfast refuses to answer simple questions like mine regarding set theory and what passport Obama used for his travel to Pakistan in 1981. I am sure that you have enough world experience to know that when one refuses to answer a simple and clear question with a simple answer, they are hiding the truthful answer to the question which is damaging to their agenda.

Slartibartast is a disgrace to his profession. He speaks about mathematics being characterized by “objective truth.” But he injects politics into the honorable field of mathematics. The only conclusion to be drawn from his unreasonable behavior is that he is a fraud in his profession.

ajtelles said...

pinata time uh huh...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., aka Kevin, to everything you wrote on June 13, 2014 at 5:08 AM-

Uh huh.
Yeah.
Right.

You deny 1700 historical reality and accept a 2000s theory, a myth.

Your denial of the 1700s understanding that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child, indicates that your acceptance of Dr. Conspiracy's, aka Kevin's theory of "one-citizen-parent" is not thoughtful and not mathematically sound.

S..., dittos to your own words comin' back at you.

>> "I also see that you are still making arguments of the caliber of "I know you are but what am I?".

[S..., huh?
What does that mean?]


>> Just a hint,
>> but that isn't considered an effective debating technique
>> once you leave kindergarden."


[S..., huh?
This is the kind of statement that requires asking again, how old are you?]


Why don't you just quit the childish claptrap and focus on the important substance instead of the trivia? You are starting to get boring with your silliness.

S..., why a 20 something would travel to Pakistan in 1981 is NOT trivia or silly, it is substance.
S..., how a 20 something financed a trip to Pakistan in 1981 is NOT trivia or silly, it is substance.
S..., which passport did the 20 something use in 1981 is NOT trivia or silly, it is substance.

S..., dittos to your own words comin' back at you -

>> "As it becomes more and more apparent how far out of your depth you are, it is getting embarrassing."

S..., aka Kevin, to deny 1700s historical reality about citizenship for a 2000s myth about citizenship maintained by your teacher Dr. Conspiracy, aka Kevin, well, you are getting embarrassing. It's just silly now.

1700s = BOTH parents are citizens = original birther John Jay and original birther George Washington
2000s = ONE parent is citizen = Obama-birther Kevin/S... and Obama-birther Kevin/Dr. Conspiracy

TWO citizen parents trumps ONE citizen parent.
BOTH parents.



Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Mario,

In your question to Dr. Conspiracy, there is no "best answer" because both A and B are equally true.

Generally speaking, in mathematics something is true or it is not. There is no such thing as a best answer when more than one answer is true.

1+7=8
2+6=8

Which one is more correct?
They are equally correct.

Either put more conditions on the question or limit the number of answers so a person isn't forced to make a choice between two correct answers.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

As Wilted Rose correctly pointed out, there are two true answers and "true" is an absolute---you cannot say that one thing is "truer" than another any more than you can be a little bit pregnant.

Your lack of understanding of this point is shown by your repeated noting that the decision of the SCOTUS in Minor was unanimous.

Here's a question for you: Does a 9-0 SCOTUS decision have more legal weight than a 5-4 decision?

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

When you, with no supporting argument whatsoever, turn around a claim that I made (which I supported with some sort of argument) so as to make the claim support yourself instead of me, that is logically equivalent to saying "I know you are but what am I?". It is childish and juvenile---regardless of your calendar age.

Regarding Pakistan, you and Mario seem to be avoiding my questions like the plague. Funny that birthers can ask whatever questions they want, even though those type of questions are based on assumptions with no probable cause, but refuse to touch questions which show their inquiries to be dishonest with a 10' pole.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Regarding my question on set theory, I am still waiting to hear from Dr. Conspiracy. I will answer you and Wilted Rose after he answers my question.

On Obama’s 1981 Pakistan travel, you said to Art:

“Regarding Pakistan, you and Mario seem to be avoiding my questions like the plague. Funny that birthers can ask whatever questions they want, even though those type of questions are based on assumptions with no probable cause, but refuse to touch questions which show their inquiries to be dishonest with a 10' pole.”

=====

I asked you a simple question: with what passport did Obama travel to Pakistan in 1981? Your answering my question does not require me answering any of your questions. My question also has no “assumptions with no probable cause.” Obama himself publicly stated that he traveled there in 1981. It is also general knowledge that in 1981 one would have needed a passport to travel out of the United States or out of some other country to Pakistan. So, there are no assumptions without any probable cause in my simple question. So, yours is nothing but a campaign of deceit.

As to your question on 5-4 SCOTUS rulings, they are more a thing of modern times. They still carry as much binding legal authority as a 9-0 decision. But a 9-0 decision probably means that the Justice were all in agreement not only on the law, but also on ideology. Also, the 9-0 decision shows that there is no dissenting or different view as expressed by a U.S. Supreme Court Justice of the law in question. Hence, as applied to Minor v. Happersett (1875) which was a 9-0 decision, every Justice of the Court agreed that under the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners,” who could be naturalized by Acts of Congress or treaties. They also all agreed that “there have been doubts” whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was even a citizen of the United States at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. In fact, virtually the same Court said in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) that a child born in the United States to alien parents was not a citizen of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment. Whatever doubts existed as to U.S. citizenship existed as to who was a citizen of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment, not who was a natural born citizen under American common law. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) answered the Fourteenth Amendment question without changing the meaning of an Article II natural born citizen as expressed by Minor.

Minor is the final word on the meaning of a natural born citizen. This is the word of the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court and it is final unless changed by constitutional amendment or a later Supreme Court decision. There has been no constitutional amendment or Supreme Court case that has changed or abandoned this American common law definition of a natural born citizen. This definition is therefore still the supreme law of the land and is controlling today.

Unknown said...

OK, I don't get the significance of Obama's Pakistan trip via Indonesia.

At that point in his life he may have had multiple citizenships and may have had multiple passports.

Why would it be an issue, as long as the passports were obtained legitimately?

Using a foreign passport to gain entry to a country where you are considered a citizen isn't illegal.

What is the issue?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

Like I told Slartibartfast, my question is simple and straightforward, with what passport did Obama travel when he made his trip to Pakistan in 1981? It does not require that the person answering it asks questions about it.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Was President Bush any less the president because Bush v. Gore was decided 5-4 rather than 9-0?

Doc C already has answered your question:

http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2014/06/reply-to-mario-apuzzo-on-immoral-birthers/#comment-334111

Pro tip: If you want to ask someone a question, post it where you know they will read and respond to it.


Here's a question for you: What is the single correct answer?

(a) Mario lies

(b) Mario is dishonest

(c) Mario uses logical fallacies liberally

(d) Mario regularly makes disingenuous statements

I'm going to be away from my computer until Sunday (since you can't seem to live without me...), so don't expect any responses until then.

Art,

I accept a 1898 court ruling which examines 1700s history and clearly explains the original intent of the Founders and the law.


S..., why a 20 something would travel to Pakistan in 1981 is NOT trivia or silly, it is substance.

"To visit a friend" is a perfectly reasonable answer to this question. What more do you want?

S..., how a 20 something financed a trip to Pakistan in 1981 is NOT trivia or silly, it is substance.

He was traveling to Indonesia, a trip that would seem completely unremarkable for someone of his age who had spent several years there as a child. Many college students take trips overseas and find a way to pay for them. Especially if they can find cheap (or free) places to stay where they go. Once you've planned a trip to Indonesia, a side trip to Pakistan to visit a friend seems like a no-brainer (except maybe to someone like you who is hard of thinking). Recently, I went to Philly for the Fogbow meetup and used it as an excuse to go to North Carolina as well. The first leg was to meet friends and the second was to visit a place I used to live (and still knew people). Do you find that suspicious? If so, what do you think it suggests? Do you think that you have the right to know anything more about my trip?

S..., which passport did the 20 something use in 1981 is NOT trivia or silly, it is substance.

Since, given all of the facts, it is nearly impossible that he traveled on anything but his own valid US passport, there is no reason that he should bother answering (at least until after Mario's colonoscopy) nor does your prurient interest give you any right to an answer to that question.

Asking questions is fine, but you are not always entitled to an answer, and refusing to accept the answers you are given without solid evidence to the contrary is extremely dishonest.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

It's a way to cast aspersions on President Obama while presenting no evidence of him doing anything untoward and ignoring a mountain of evidence that the answers to his questions are perfectly reasonable.

The key is that none of us can answer with 100% certainty which passport he used, even though we pretty much know he had a valid US passport that would have worked and have no evidence that he ever held a passport issued by any other country.

In other words, Mario is just being his usual disingenuous self.

Unknown said...

If I had been in Obama's shoes on that trip, I would have used both my US passport and my Indonesian passport (if I had one). Lets stipulate, just for now, that I acquired Indonesian citizenship as a child, and qualified for an Indonesian passport.

On the outgoing trip I would use the Indonesian passport. I wouldn't have to have a visa, and entry to Indonesia would be easy because I'm a citizen there. I would also use the Indonesian passport while in that part of the world, to go into Pakistan.

When heading back to the States I would use the US passport, again no visa required to go to the US because of my citizenship there, and waltz through immigration because hey, I'm a citizen.

That's what I would have done.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Dr. Conspiracy answered my set theory question. Here is what he said:

Mr. Apuzzo, not being a mathematician, doesn’t realize that on math tests, you aren’t asked to provide the “best” answer. Math isn’t about value judgments.

Since Apuzzo doesn’t define “best,” the respondent has to guess the definition, which just leads to confusion and disputes.
What I find interesting is that I think that even in this formally straightforward question, Apuzzo is trying to surreptitiously wave around his straw man named “Obots think all citizens are natural born citizens.”

The way I reason the problem, I will answer:

-b. A proper subset of citizens.

I call this answer “best” because the other true statement (-a. A subset of citizens.) can be derived from answer “b,” making it the more useful response.

=====

Dr. Conspiracy is wrong in everything that he said except his answer to my question. I have never argued that the Obots maintain that all citizens are natural born citizens. In fact, I even have been arguing that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens which proves Dr. Conspiracy wrong regarding me making any straw man argument. If all citizens were natural born citizens, we could not say that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens. In any event, Dr. Conspiracy provided the correct answer. Hence, we can see that Ph.D. Mathematician Slartibartfast is wrong again. He said the best answer was a. and b. when the “best” answer is only b., meaning that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens.

Here is Slartibartfast trying to save face at Dr. Conspiracy’s blog:

A proper subset (a mathematical “term of art”, so to speak) is a subset (another “term of art”) which does not include the entire set. In math, all of the words mean something specific and unique. Doc’s response is that of a mathematician replying thoroughly and thoughtfully to an extremely inane question.

=====

You have got to love Slartibartfast, telling us that Dr. Conspiracy, as a mathematician, replied “thoroughly and thoughtfully” to an “extremely inane question.” I thought Slartibartfast was also a mathematician. After all, he told us that he has a Ph.D. in Mathematics. Also, why would someone need to be “thoroughly and thoughtfully” when answering an “extremely inane question?” And if it was such an inane question, why would Slartibartfast provide a wrong answer to the question?

Here is more from Slartibartfast:

It’s certainly a nice change from Mario’s perfidy…

FYI—when you’re reading in “math”, every word is important and conveys a unique meaning. There are no extraneous or ambiguous terms (or you are making the equivalent of a grammatical error).

=====

Notice how Slartibartfast is trying to save face even harder, educating others just after just being proven by Dr. Conspiracy that he gave the wrong answer to the question. He also did not follow his own lecture when he answered my question. Rather, he chose to argue with the instructor and even go to the Department Head in protest over the question and then insisted that the question had two answers and not one “best” answer. Dr. Conspiracy did not buy into any of that nonsense because he saw the writing on the wall. He simply provided the correct answer.

So, what can we say about Slartibartfast, who tells us that will not be around for several days? (I guess things will cool off for him during his absence.) You be the judge.

ajtelles said...

Pinata Questions...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., aka Kevin, for the record, on June 13, 2014 at 2:22 PM, you got silly again.

>> "Mario,
>> Was President Bush any less the president because Bush v. Gore was decided 5-4 rather than 9-0?
[...]

>> "Here's a question for you:
>> What is the single correct answer?

>> (a) Mario lies
>> (b) Mario is dishonest
>> (c) Mario uses logical fallacies liberally
>> (d) Mario regularly makes disingenuous statements"

[...]

S..., the silly "question" of yours above, and later in your post, your childish verbiage to Mario is such a waste of typing ability. However, the childish verbiage was not a waste of intellectual effort since it is apparent that nerve cell synapse gap dendrites and axon terminals were not activated.

>> "Art,
>> I accept a 1898 court ruling which examines 1700s history and clearly explains the original intent of the Founders and the law.


S..., I accept that in 1787 John Jay expressed his Article II original intent and original genesis meaning himself which was based on the 1700s' common understanding that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child. It was THAT 1700s understanding that helped inform the 1898 SCOTUS ruling.

S..., this is your "obot" definition, posted on April 3, 2014 at 7:27 AM -

>> "... the obot position is that
either native birth
OR
one citizen parent* is sufficient
to make one a natural born citizen,
not both. ... ."


S..., aka Kevin, why are you, Dr. Conspiracy, aka Kevin, and Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers still accepting the theory, the myth, that the 1868 14th Amendment, 1875 Minor v Happersett, and 1898 U.S. v Wong Kim Ark are NOT affirming only BOTH citizen parents, but you still ARE accepting the theory, the myth of only ONE citizen parent.

S..., the "one-citizen-parent" theory is contrary to the 1700s original intent and original genesis meaning implicit in John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen;" implicitly meaning in 1700s America ONLY born on U.S. soil and ONLY born to TWO U.S. citizen parents who are married to each other BEFORE their child is born?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

Pinata Questions...

2/

S..., you wrote that a 20 something would travel to Pakistan in 1981 to "visit."

>> " "To visit a friend" is a perfectly reasonable answer to this question.
What more do you want?"


S..., how do you know he was visiting a frined?


S..., you wrote that 20 something financed a trip to Pakistan in 1891 by first going to Indonesia.

>> "He was traveling to Indonesia, ...."

S..., how did a 20 something "finance" ANY trip?
Do you know THAT?



S..., your side trip from North Carolina to Philly is not an answer, and you know it. It is obfuscation.

S..., you said that in 1981 a 20 something had a U.S. passport to travel to Pakistan.

>> "Since, given all of the facts,
>> it is nearly
>> impossible
>> that he traveled
>> on anything
>>but
>> his own
>> valid US passport, ...."


S..., how do you know that it was a U.S. passport?

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

S..., Dr. Conspiracy and Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers, your loyal defense of BHObams life history is admirable and for the history books, that's for sure, but, you should attempt a simple refutation of the primary 1700s historical reality that you Obama-birthers NEVER attempt to rebut and refute.

S..., Dr. Conspiracy and Obama birth narrative Obama-0birthers, which of the two questions below is the 1700s historical reality that was understood by John Jay in 1787 America?

Question #1 -

Did John Jay underline the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with 1700s original intent clarity and 1700s original genesis meaning that was in accord with the 1700s understanding that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenshp of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child?

BOTH parents.

Question #2 -

Did Joh Jay underline the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit 2000s understanding that "one-citizen-parent" was sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS in 1700s America, so that the citizenship of ONLY ONE parent was implicit in 1700s America AND the citizenship of BOTH parents was ALSO implicit in 1700s America?

ONE parent AND also BOTH parents?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

If President Obama had an Indonesian passport, the scenario you suggest is plausible. Also, it wouldn't effect his eligiblity in any way. It is, however, highly unlikely that he did.

Mario,

Clearly you did not understand Doc's response. He essentially said your problem was ill-posed (which it is)

Unknown said...

Has barry ever showed the public a legit 1981 us passport with his name on it or actually any legit ID from his shady past? When do we get to see harrison j bounels or barrys legit social security application? Biggest fraud, liar and sleazebag in us history

Anonymous said...

Mario, I shared on my blog your well enumerated questions regarding obama's suspicious trip to Pakistan. Now BirtherReport has picked it up and re-blogged it.

http://www.birtherreport.com/2014/06/attention-questions-about-obamas.html

Wilted Rose wrote: "When heading back to the States I would use the US passport, again no visa required to go to the US because of my citizenship there, and waltz through immigration because hey, I'm a citizen."

Obama couldn't do that because he was not recognized as a U.S. citizen due to not being able to provide a State birth certificate to the State Department.

He returned to the U.S. with the same authorization under which he lived in the U.S.; a permanent resident Green Card.
No one has ever asked for that record but it has probably gone missing anyway, just in case it might be lifted from its archive by a patriot.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esquire Asked:
"Let us assume that you are a math student going for your Ph.D. in Mathematics at Obama World Institute of Mathematics. You are taking a multiple choice exam on set theory. You are instructed that for each question you are to provide only one answer which must be the best answer of the choices provided. Here is one of the questions of the exam:
-1. Natural born citizens is:
-a. A subset of citizens.
-b. A proper subset of citizens.
-c. A superset of citizens.
-d. None of the above.
Please provide your answer."

Pure fantasy. We never get that kind of thing at Obama World Institute. The question above is actually from Apuzzo U, where the students that fail teach the courses and compose the exams.


In other comment Esquire Apuzzo asked:
"When are you going to admit that the natural born citizens is a proper subset of the born citizens?"

Shouldn't you show it, Mr. Apuzzo, before asking others to admit it? The usual way to demonstrate that a subset is a proper subset is to show a member of the containing set that is not also in the subset. You'd need a case in U.S. law where someone was found not to be a natural-born citizen and to be a citizen from birth.

I explained the principle, under my abbreviated real name "brygenon", to the founder of Twofer U nearly five years ago:
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/07/30/justice-horace-gray-clearly-indicated-wong-kim-ark-was-not-a-natural-born-citizen/#comments
In the years since I've asked many more for such an example. I've gotten zero so far.

Unknown said...

To date after six years of studying this issue no one has come forth with any evidence that at the time of Ratification anyone objected to the "natural born" requirement or found the expression either obscure or ambiguous. That in itself is an accomplishment!

And that fact is remarkable. The debate between the philosophical positions of realism and nominalism have gone on now for two and a half millennia. But that is rather a different sort of debate. Here we just want a definitive definition of "natural born citizen". So how could something so important get lost so easily and during a fairly short period of time? Very puzzling.

Or is it? When did this bit of ignorance and confusion really first start? I doubt it was just 6 or 7 years ago. Too bad we do not have some French deconstructionists here to really cloud things up. Here is what I have in mind. I might have attended law school in the 1960's. What if I had asked a professor of law at say the University of Nebraska, What does this "natural born" mean? Or at Yale? Personally I do not know the answer, but it would have been a very legitimate question. Surely there is a very old law professor still living who was teaching law in the 1950's. And who has not been put on drugs to make him easier to deal with!

How could any man teach law for thirty or forty years and not know the Constitution quite well, especially back then when education had a rather more scholarly tone.

Perhaps some middle aged attorney has a favorite law professor he could contact for an answer.

MichaelN said...

Unknown (scared to use real name)said.....

"You'd need a case in U.S. law where someone was found not to be a natural-born citizen and to be a citizen from birth."
------------------

Here's the SCOTUS case "where someone was found not to be a natural-born citizen and to be a citizen from birth."

Ready?

Wong Kim Ark!

Quote:
"The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination the single question stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parent of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States. For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.

Order affirmed."

Duh!

Slartibartfast said...

Dick head said: "Has barry ever showed the public a legit 1981 us passport with his name on it or actually any legit ID from his shady past? When do we get to see harrison j bounels or barrys legit social security application? Biggest fraud, liar and sleazebag in us history"

Could you please name the US presidents who's passports you've seen? (and include links or I'll just assume you're lying). I suspect that the only honest list you could give would be:

1. President Barack Hussein Obama (his diplomatic passport, I believe)

Adrien,

You said: "Wilted Rose wrote: "When heading back to the States I would use the US passport, again no visa required to go to the US because of my citizenship there, and waltz through immigration because hey, I'm a citizen."

Obama couldn't do that because he was not recognized as a U.S. citizen due to not being able to provide a State birth certificate to the State Department.

He returned to the U.S. with the same authorization under which he lived in the U.S.; a permanent resident Green Card.
No one has ever asked for that record but it has probably gone missing anyway, just in case it might be lifted from its archive by a patriot.
"

Since it is known fact that the State Department recognized President Obama as a citizen (a FOIA request for information on Obama Sr. indicated that he had a US citizen son), it is irrefutable (to correctly use a word that has become truly ironic whenever you use it) that President Obama was entitled to a US passport. Have you ever looked for verification of a single fact once you realized how to use it to smear President Obama?

As for the rest of your comment, I regard it as absolute proof that you are, in fact, an African-American lesbian born of immigrant parents attempting to discredit the birther movement. There just isn't any other plausible scenario.

You go girl!

Mario,

Byron aka "Unknown"* said: "The usual way to demonstrate that a subset is a proper subset is to show a member of the containing set that is not also in the subset. You'd need a case in U.S. law where someone was found not to be a natural-born citizen and to be a citizen from birth."

This is, in fact, the correct way to demonstrate (i.e. prove) that a given subset is a proper subset. What should we infer from your complete inability to do so?

* Which is now amusingly ironic.

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

Anonymous Aussies shouldn't throw glass stones at the imaginary motes in other people's eyes without first considering their own eye-beams...

Just sayin'

To translate for all of you who didn't get that, MichaelN is an ignorant hypocrite.

"Unknown" recently revealed that his name was Byron Gene Olsen (which clearly is not "Linda", verifying his other alias as well).

As for Mr. Wong, it is clear from the argument from the State of California in the lower court (that if Mr. Wong was a citizen, he would be eligible for the presidency), explicitly stated in the lower court ruling (I believe---I don't have the reference at hand) and spelled out by the entirety of the holding of Wong Kim Ark (which contains an enormous amount of material on "natural born" that is cited approvingly and nothing about naturalization which is used to justify the ruling). In short, there is absolutely no basis in Wong Kim Ark to show that Mr. Wong was found not to be a natural born citizen and substantial evidence to the contrary.

Slartibartfast said...

William St. George wrote:

To date after six years of studying this issue no one has come forth with any evidence that at the time of Ratification anyone objected to the "natural born" requirement or found the expression either obscure or ambiguous. That in itself is an accomplishment!

Actually, it is a pretty stunning failure on the part of the birther movement (which is known for stunning failures). Since there is only one possible candidate for a clear meaning of "natural born" (that which the colonies used before ratification), this "accomplishment" is strong evidence that the birthers are simply wrong.

And that fact is remarkable. The debate between the philosophical positions of realism and nominalism have gone on now for two and a half millennia. But that is rather a different sort of debate. Here we just want a definitive definition of "natural born citizen". So how could something so important get lost so easily and during a fairly short period of time? Very puzzling.

Unless, of course, the anti-birthers are right and the meaning has never been lost by anyone---except for a small group of malcontents desperate to delegitimize President Obama.

Or is it? When did this bit of ignorance and confusion really first start? I doubt it was just 6 or 7 years ago. Too bad we do not have some French deconstructionists here to really cloud things up. Here is what I have in mind. I might have attended law school in the 1960's. What if I had asked a professor of law at say the University of Nebraska, What does this "natural born" mean? Or at Yale? Personally I do not know the answer, but it would have been a very legitimate question. Surely there is a very old law professor still living who was teaching law in the 1950's. And who has not been put on drugs to make him easier to deal with!

There is a much easier and more reliable way to do this---look at text books which were in use before 2008. In fact, this has already been done. While Obots have found dozens of texts that make it clear that anyone born under US jurisdiction (another term who's meaning was never in doubt until the birthers came on the scene) is a natural born citizen, the birthers have discovered exactly zero text books in which someone (at any level) might have learned that natural born citizenship requires citizen parents. Which is also the same ratio as that of law professors who have confirmed President Obama is eligible to those who have said that his father's citizenship was a problem. It is clear that this "bit of ignorance and confusion" really did start about 6 years ago---right about the time it was becoming clear that Barack Obama was going to be elected to the presidency---and is confined to a few malcontents on the fringe known as "birthers".

How could any man teach law for thirty or forty years and not know the Constitution quite well, especially back then when education had a rather more scholarly tone.

How about a woman who was appointed by Ronald Reagan and served for 25 years on the Supreme Court? Do you think that such a person would know the Constitution quite well? And if such a person voted with the majority on Bush v. Gore, then she couldn't possibly be controlled by the Democratic party, right?

I guess the clear and unambiguous statement by Sandra Day O'Connor that President Obama is natural born due to his birth in Hawai'i doesn't count because she doesn't give the answer you want.


Perhaps some middle aged attorney has a favorite law professor he could contact for an answer.

Translation: "can we find some senile retiree who will say what we tell him to?"

Since there are already plenty of sources with credible and relevant expertise that unequivocally say that President Obama is eligible, it is clear that only those who refuse to accept the obvious answer are still asking questions.

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