Sunday, January 4, 2009

WHAT IS OBAMA'S TRUE RELIGION?

Maxine Box, Stanley Ann Dunham's best friend in high school, in speaking about Obamas’s mother, said, "‘She touted herself as an atheist, and it was something she'd read about and could argue. She was always challenging and arguing and comparing. She was already thinking about things that the rest of us hadn't.’"[5] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham.

“In his 1995 memoir Dreams from My Father Barack Obama wrote, ‘My mother's confidence in needlepoint virtues depended on a faith I didn't possess... In a land [Indonesia] where fatalism remained a necessary tool for enduring hardship... she was a lonely witness for secular humanism, a soldier for New Deal, Peace Corps, position-paper liberalism.’"[38] “In his 2006 book The Audacity of Hope Obama wrote, ‘I was not raised in a religious household... My mother's own experiences... only reinforced this inherited skepticism. Her memories of the Christians who populated her youth were not fond ones... And yet for all her professed secularism, my mother was in many ways the most spiritually awakened person that I've ever known.’"[39] “Religion for her was ‘just one of the many ways — and not necessarily the best way — that man attempted to control the unknowable and understand the deeper truths about our lives,’" Obama wrote.[37] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham.

Some of Obama's answers he gave during a 2004 interview to Chicago Sun Times columnist Cathleen Falsani when he was running for U.S. Senate in Illinois are rather revealing. http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/11/obamas-interview-with-cathleen.html.

FALSANI:
Who's Jesus to you?
(He laughs nervously)
OBAMA:
Right.
Jesus is an historical figure for me, and he's also a bridge between God and man, in the Christian faith, and one that I think is powerful precisely because he serves as that means of us reaching something higher.
And he's also a wonderful teacher. I think it's important for all of us, of whatever faith, to have teachers in the flesh and also teachers in history.
FALSANI:
Is Jesus someone who you feel you have a regular connection with now, a personal connection with in your life?
OBAMA:
Yeah. Yes. I think some of the things I talked about earlier are addressed through, are channeled through my Christian faith and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.”

Maya Soetoro-Ng, Obama’s sister, when asked if her mother was an atheist, said, "‘I wouldn't have called her an atheist. She was an agnostic. She basically gave us all the good books — the Bible, the Hindu Upanishads and the Buddhist scripture, the Tao Te Ching, Sun Tzu — and wanted us to recognize that everyone has something beautiful to contribute.’"[36] "Jesus, she felt, was a wonderful example. But she felt that a lot of Christians behaved in un-Christian ways.’"[37] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham.

Now in 2007, Obama said the following: “In 2007 Obama described his mother as ‘a Christian from Kansas.’" "‘I was raised by my mother,’" he continued. "‘So, I’ve always been a Christian.’"[40][41] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham. “Also in 2007, he said in a speech, ‘My mother, whose parents were nonpracticing Baptists and Methodists, was one of the most spiritual souls I ever knew. But she had a healthy skepticism of religion as an institution.’"[42] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham.

Obama has stated and written that his mother was the most influential force in his life. You would then think that she had a great influence on his religious upbringing and the religious beliefs he eventually developed as an adult. In her high school years, she proclaimed to be an atheist, not a Christian In his Dreams From My Father, Obama wrote that his mother survived in Indonesia on “secular humanism,” not on Christianity. In the Audacity of Hope, he wrote that he was not raised in a religious household. Hence, he did not say he was raised in a Christian household. He explains that his mother’s memories of “the Christians who populated her youth were not fond ones.” This shows that his mother did not consider herself a part of those Christians. During the Falsani interview, he said he had been going to church for so many years and that his Christian faith ran deep. But the way he answered the question on who Jesus is does not suggest that his Christian faith runs very deep. He called Jesus a "historical figure" and a "teacher in history." To refer to Jesus as a historical figure is a standard answer by someone who really does not believe in Jesus as a religious person but rather only as a person that lived in history. It is a secular answer or could even be an answer provided by someone from a different faith when speaking about Jesus. It is also a polite way to answer such a question and not offend the person asking the question. It is also unusual for a Christian to refer to Jesus as a "bridge between God and man," for he or she would not reduce Jesus to being a "bridge." Later in his answer, he tried to gain religious credibility by talking about his "personal relationship with Jesus Christ." But nothing in his answers in any way showed that he had any such real relationship. All his answers do not seem genuine but rather words given to the interviewer because that is what she and the voting public wanted to hear. Obama’s own sister said Obama’s mother was an agnostic and that she thought of Jesus as only an “example” of someone who “contributed” good to the world. A Christian would never see Jesus as only a contributor, for to such individuals Jesus through his Father is all that was, is, and ever will be (so much greater than a mere contributor). Then during his recent political campaigning in 2007, Obama described his mother as “a Christian from Kansas.” But what happened, now she was a Christian? He went on to say that he was raised by his mother and that he has “always been a Christian.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham. Also in 2007, he said that his mother was “one of the most spiritual souls I ever knew.” [42] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Dunham. But when did his mother’s religious transformation occur and when did that transformation become a spiritual part of Obama?”

Given what appears to be his rather shallow, even if that, faith in Christianity, one wonders what Obama did in the Trinity United Church of Christ for nearly twenty years, notwithstanding his statement that “[m]ost importantly, Rev. Wright preached the gospel of Jesus, a gospel on which I base my life.” http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html. I am not saying that any one running for President must be a Christian. I am not questioning Obama's religion, whatever it is. Rather, I am only questioning Obama’s sincerity regarding what he says his religious faith is. I believe my suspicions are justified given that he made his statements in books he personally wrote and while campaigning for public office. Then, my next question is why would Obama tell us he was a Christian if he really is not? Why could he not tell us what his real religion is, if he has any?

Again, I am not condemning or denouncing Obama’s religion, whatever it is. I fully support freedom of religion for all people, provided that the religion is not used to harm others or self, is tolerant of other religions, is not used to convince its followers that they are superior in some way to the non-followers, and is not used for political purposes. I also believe that religion should never be used as an excuse to hurt or subjugate other people. Religion is suppose to show people that we, regardless of sex, race, nationality, ethnicity, sexual orientation, and physical and mental disability, are basically all the same, mortals with limited time on earth. It is suppose to show people that they are to do good works during their time on earth and that they will be rewarded in the afterlife based on those good works. How can a religious person therefore use religion to harm another human being? I also recognize that all religions have been guilty of doing harm at one point or another in history. That has been the human condition and does not mean that we cannot find good in those religions. We have to prevail and make a peaceful world today and in the future. Why could not Obama, who professes to be a unifying force for all peoples, tell us what his true religion is and give us the same message?

© Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

January 4, 2009

34 comments:

ubirevera said...

Mr. Apuzzo,
Coincidentally, I have also been thinking about the spirituality of Stanley Ann Dunham myself for the last couple of days. I, too, noticed the disparity between Obama's having described his mother as a Christian and other statements about her that indicate that she did not practice or promote Christianity.
I disagree with your criticism of his 'analogy' of Jesus as being a bridge between God and man. This is actually quite a common explanation of the role that Jesus plays in God's plan of salvation for mankind. It is the death of Jesus that bridges the gulf between God and man caused by man's sinfulness. This is the essence of the Christian faith. It does surprise me, though, that such a well-spoken man is not better able to communicate his faith (as in the forum with Rick Warren), but, such may not have been required of him. Much of what you considered the value of religion could be understood to be the outworking of one's faith and that is what the Bible speaks of as true religion: to care for orphans and widows in their suffering, and to remain unstained from the world. So this is how we ought to judge the religion of Barack Obama: does he live his faith, does he walk the talk?

I do have two additional comments concerning Obama's background. One of the major spiritual influences in the Dunham family was the Unitarian 'Church' which is a conglomeration of ideas from any faith and not in any sense Christian. Stanley Ann as a child and Barack while living with his grandparents had some connection with this approach to faith.

Additionally, I learned today that Stanley Ann's dissertation was on the topic of “Peasant Blacksmithing in Indonesia: Surviving and Thriving Against all Odds” 1992. A colleague described the topic, "It’s powerful, spiritually powerful. The smithy area is sacred; women couldn’t go into that area. The story is that blacksmiths forged human souls for the next generation. There’s a carving in one of the temples depicting one of the demi-god heroes as a blacksmith. It’s highly symbolic. You put offerings on the anvil. So you have a sacred craft that developed over some 2000 years." She chose this over 2 other craft-based topics and one might imply that it reflected a deep interest in spiritual things, which would support Barack's statement that "she was the most spiritually awakened person he knew."

But why should we believe anything he wrote in his book? He wouldn't be the first man that Oprah Winfrey promoted that turned out to be a fraud!

Puzo1 said...

To ubirevera:

Take a look at this link on the bridge between man and God.
http://charleshamel.com/2008/03/17/shamans-the-bridge-between-man-and-god/

Here is another interesting link on a discussion on Obama's Christianity.
http://lhote.blogspot.com/2008/11/begone-heretic.html

I am no where near any authority on religion. I only raised the questions that I did in my article. This subject is much to complicated for me and would consume the rest of my life to understand it.

Mario Apuzzo, Eq.

Anonymous said...

Obama's stated, in terms clear enough for most of the world, that he's a Christian.

And for someone who claims to support religious freedom, your post smells suspeciously like a religious test. No Spanish Inquisition, but getting there.

Magnus said...

Mario Apuzzo: "I fully support freedom of religion for all people, provided that the religion is not used to harm others or self, is tolerant of other religions, is not used to convince its followers that they are superior in some way to the non-followers, and is not used for political purposes. I also believe that religion should never be used as an excuse to hurt or subjugate other people."
Islam fails miserably to meet these qualifications; it is in fact opposite to all these requirements. The few good verses in the Koran can not change that.

Puzo1 said...

To Anonymous:

I guess you did not understand my post. I was very clear that I am not advocating any religious test for a would-be President or for any individual, for no one has a monopoly on what is right. What I am saying is that someone running for President should be honest with the electorate as to what his or her religious faith is. A candidate should not simply tell the public what they want to hear simply for the purpose of being elected. I know that is what happens in many cases in our current political environment. But that does not make it correct or beneficial for the nation. Further, if a candidate believes that the end justifies the means, then what else can we expect of him or her on other difficult issues.

It is only my personal opinion that I do not believe that Obama was truthful about his religious beliefs during his campaigns for public office. That is my criticism.
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

Puzo1 said...

To ubirevera:

I also want to add that I always thought that in Christianity, Jesus is the incarnation of God, that He personifies God and is God in the human flesh. I believe that rather God made Jesus his representative in the flesh on earth. Hence, Jesus is so much more than just a bridge, for he is God himself in the flesh. To reduce Jesus to something that is physical and of the earth detracts from who He really is. If Jesus is God, how can we say that Jesus is a "bridge" between God and man? That is my reason for saying that Jesus is not a bridge to God.

I am a lawyer and have no background in theology and I defer to the experts on this subject. This is only my personal opinion.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

Anonymous said...

You twist Obama's words about his faith, yet claim you aren't questioning his faith. Amazing. Who do you think you are fooling?

Obama's stated he's a Christian. He has worshipped at a Christian church for roughly 20 years now. Obama's not playing hide the ball; you refuse to acknowledge the ball in plain sight.

By the way, Obama was elected to be the president, not the Pope.

Puzo1 said...

To Anonymous:

You want to mis-characterize my article so that you can set up your little point and win. The simple answer is that my article does not say what you wish it said. I would not be that stupid to have the "whole" world come down on me. Why do you not address the real question rather than making up you own and then answering your own question. Finally, your remark about the Pope is contemptuous and shows a little about your religious faith, whatever it is.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

Anonymous said...

Attorney Apuzzo,

I agree totally with your post.

And add my own observations:

Being raised by a free-thinker, Obama has difficulty sticking to or adhereing to any definitions or words.

So he says many things because none of them seem to convey what he is trying to say, because he doesnot atttempt to constrict realities in words.

This is classic pyschology for the Atheist, to avoid admitting the existence of God through syllogistic reasoning. Nominalism which is the hall mark of free-thinkers also leads to this and to Atheism.

That's is why Obama considers himself the definitin of the words his applies to himself,and why he appears to some as a Messiah, or AntiChrist or Ubermensch.

Is he a Christian? Not at all.

He is, if we use are terms strictly, and egomaniac. Because that is the pyschological result of denying that you must ahere to a Supreme Being, who is not yourself, and an objective standard of law and morality.

He can't do that, and his mother is most at fault for it.

Anonymous said...

Obama has said, very plainly he's a Christian. He demonstrated his sincerity by attending church for most of his adult life.

Yet you insist on twisting his words, as well as the words of his mother and half-sister, to imply he hasn't been forthcoming enough. Again, your request is unreasonable, as Obama has been plenty forthcoming.

And if you don't think your article is questioning Obama's faith or subtly imposing a religious requirements test, try rereading some of the other comments for this post. "Where's there smoke, there's fire."

ubirevera said...

Mr. Apuzzo,
Thank you for your responses to my comments. I do want you to know that I truly respect your opinion and appreciate that you have brought this issue to the attention of the public. Have you read the article http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/12/obama_from_unitarian_to_libera_1.html concerning Obama's connecton to the Unitarian Church?

I intended earlier to express that I think you are right on target in pointing out the disparity between Obama's statements that his mother was a Christian and many other evidences to the contrary which are difficult to reconcile. You very appropriately drew together much of the conflicting information in a single article. I just wanted to add a couple of things and point out one that some could very validly disagree with.

As for the idea of Jesus being a bridge between God and man, you probably notice that what I specified was that Jesus' death was the bridge. It is precisely because he was God incarnate that his death could be the bridge. Although there are many verses that support this, one especially comes to mind from the Gospel according to John in which Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me." This same Gospel makes use of many physical terms to describe Jesus: including bread, water, light, gate, and shepherd. I think the point is not to lower Jesus by using these earthly terms, but to make him more comprehensible to human beings. You might find it interesting to review the Gospel of John. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%201&version=31
And in conclusion, since 'bridge' is not one of the terms actually used to describe Jesus in the Bible, you are perfectly free to omit it. Many people have found it helpful for picturing that there is a gulf between the Holy God and imperfect mankind with the death of Jesus as the perfect, Holy God-man being the only acceptable sacrifice or payment that can remove the sin and become the bridge to a restored relationship with God.

Again, I have the utmost respect for you, your legal mind, your ability to analyze the issues and write about them, and particularly your concern for upholding the Constitution. You are making an incredible contribution on this front. Thank you.

Puzo1 said...

To: Anonymous:

I know Obama said very plainly that he is a Christian. I am not saying that he has to say that. What I am questioning is his sincerity in saying that and why would he say that if he did not really believe it.

As far as attending church for "most of his adult life," that does not make one a Christian, especially if the church becomes more of a political forum than a religious one.

You say that I twisted his words and those of his mother and sister. Show me how I twisted those words. I believe that I have only repeated what they said.

You say my request is unreasonable. I did not request anything. I only questioned Obama's sincerity as to what he publicly expressed his faith to be.

You still insist that I am imposing a "religious requirement test" and that "other comments for this post" support your position. First, I have already told you my position on the religious test. You retreat there again because you know there is not other place for you to go. I will not repeat myself and you can go to my previous posts for clarification. Second, because you find comfort in other comments on this post which you interpret to be supportive of your position does not make either your comments or those of others correct.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

Anonymous said...

There's no proof that Obama isn't sincere in his religious beliefs, notwithstanding your request for more sincerity. Rather, you rely on an odd patchwork of statements from his mother, his half-sister, and Obama *about his mother's beliefs* to arrive at the conclusion that Obama himself somehow isn't telling the truth when he states he's a Christian.

When confronted with the reality of him attending church for most of his adult life - which is an obvious testament of sincerity - you demurrer that doesn't make him a Christian. Man, George Bush should take lessons from you in soul reading.

You pick at the "Jesus is a bridge" statement as being insufficiently Christian sounding. For someone who candidly admits that they have no theological training, that smacks of a nice cocktail of ignorance and arrogance.

All your dogwhistling has, unsurprisingly, called in the usual zealotry: "Obama's not a Christian!"; "Obama's a Muslim!"; "Islam is not a real religion!". To claim this reaction (and the implicit religious requirement it carries) was not your intent makes you either a liar, very stupid, or both.

Puzo1 said...

The real proof of Obama's true religious faith is in the statements of his mother, sister, and Obama himself. I do not understand your characterization of their statements as patchwork. You must show me how their statements are either not credible or not reliable. Do not just simply criticize the statements without providing any basis for criticism.

Your reference about George Bush, he is not the issue. Obama is.

I admitted my ignorance when it come to religion. I see you have not told me about your credentials. I guess your not man or woman enough to admit your ignorance.

Taking your statement about what my real motivations are for questioning Obama's religion, first, I am not interested in your analysis about my motivations and I hope neither are other intelligent people. What I am interested in is whether I am right or wrong. Second, I am surprised that you also did not accuse me of being a "right-wing, red-necked racist." You see my friend, that has been the problem in this election and it continues to plague us. Many people were afraid to stand up to Obama because they were afraid to be labeled racists. It is a real shame when people cannot speak their mind because they are afraid of being branded something. That is exactly what you are trying to do to me. Well, it will not work because I have the courage to speak my mind.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

Anonymous said...

The real proof of Obama's sincerity is his own words and especially deeds. Not what his mother believed, not what his half-sister thinks. To attempt to graft that onto Obama's beliefs is rather shoddy substitute. Obama has stated his sincerely held beliefs, and demonstrated that sincerity by being active in his church for most of his adult life. For you, a person admittedly ignorant in religion, to sniff around and decree that Obama isn't Christian enough is incredible (in both usages of the word).

The reference to George Bush was his "ability" to read Putin's soul, a power that you are too now claiming -- sorry if these references keep going over your head.

And my religious credentials aren't at issue; *you* are the one proudly talking about something you admit you know nothing about. You don't have to be a zoologist to know when you see a strutting peacock.

You nicely played your complaint that people were silenced for the fear of being labeled a racist, when you were never called one. Do you have any more straw man arguments? If you want to speak, and prove yourself to be an idiot, go right ahead. But, really, the deeper you go down this tinfoil rabbit hole, your veracity and intelligence will be questioned, often. (Query: How do you think the professional community views Philip Berg and Orly Taitz?)

Your motivation is plain enough: you don't like Obama. But your emotion makes you see things that aren't there; to accuse you of making mountains out of molehills would be conceding the existence of molehills.

Puzo1 said...

To Anonymous:

You expend great energies here. Too bad you cannot use some of that fight to help me find Obama's birth certificate.

You talk about Obama's words and deeds being proof of the sincerity as to what professed to be his religious beliefs. His words are contradicted by his words themselves and by the words of his mother and sister. I am not grafting anything onto his beliefs. Rather, I am only comparing what his mother and sister said with his words and also analyzing his words themselves. Again, I am not interested in what Obama's faith is only in that I do not believe he was honest with the public as to what his faith is.

You like to keep reminding me how I candidly admitted that I am not an expert in religion and that I would defer to the experts on the subject. But you still fail to tell me what your credentials are on the subject. What are you afraid of? Typical, that you cannot even admit a simple truth. In any event, regarding my lack of expertise in religion, I am glad that you feel as I do that one does not need "to be a zoologist to know when you see a strutting peacock."

I did not use my nose to determine that Obama has not been sincere in what he states his religious faith is. Rather, I used my brain. I cannot imagine how you would confuse the two. Also, I only stated my opinion. I wish that I could decree it.

The only thing going over my head is my failure to realize that I am waisting time communicating with you.

You guys just love to talk about Bush. The subject is Obama. It's Obama, stupid!

I am impressed that "straw man argument" is in your vocabulary. But you have not convinced me that you know what it means. After all, you want me to go into my "tinfoil rabbit hole." But that is par for the course, for you wallow in self-righteousness and hypocricy.

Final word, that Obama is not eligible to be President of the United States is no "molehill."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

ubirevera said...

Obama was not active in his church. Although he may have been associated with churches over the years, he did not attend regularly... maybe once a month. Although he attended Rev. Wright's church, he 'claimed' he didn't know about the offensive things he taught. Either he lied about not hearing, or he just wasn't there that much. I recall that he seemed to distance himself from Wright. Another interesting observation about this 'devout' Christian presumptive president-elect is that he didn't attend church for at least the first three Sundays after the election, which is a departure from the example of the previous 2 presidents. He went to the gym for a workout. Maybe that reveals who Obama's god is.

When asked who Jesus is, Obama called him a historical figure and a bridge between man and God. He did not say that Jesus is God. This is a central tenet of the Christian faith. He can say that he has a 'personal relationship' with Jesus, but how does one have a personal relationship with a historical religious figure unless he is alive..... Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Muslims consider it blasphemy to say that God had a son or any 'partners' for that matter. Obama was either ignorant of the true Christian faith or mincing his words to be politically correct...

Lay off Mr. Apuzzo.... he did a great job of calling Obama's bluff. Obama doesn't need your help to defend him and you are just talking nonsense and wasting everyone's time.

Anonymous said...

“Too bad you cannot use some of that fight to help me find Obama's birth certificate.”

It is in Hawaii. Do you need help finding that on a map?


“His words are contradicted by his words themselves and by the words of his mother and sister.”

Obama and his half-sister were discussing *his mother’s* beliefs. You quoted neither his mother nor his half-sister for any statement regarding *Obama’s* beliefs. Obama’s own statements about his own beliefs, as well as his own actions, are sufficiently consistent, and don’t imply that he was being dishonest about his own religious beliefs.

One does not need to be a religious expert to see that you are making up contradictions where none exist, and that you are talking about subjects you know nothing about. And your strut is rather unbecoming.

It a good thing we don't live in some Islamic country, where their leaders' fitness is judged by whether their words adhere to a religious doctrine, or whether they attend religious services enough. Oh, wait ...


“I did not use my nose to determine that Obama has not been sincere in what he states his religious faith is. Rather, I used my brain. I cannot imagine how you would confuse the two.”

The output is identical.


“You guys just love to talk about Bush. The subject is Obama. It's Obama, stupid!”

Who is “you guys”? Is this “The Electric Company”? And, actually, the subject is you. Bush was referenced only because he, like you, is a self-proclaimed soul seer. But, if you prefer: your mindreading abilities are reminiscent of Carnac the Great’s, and are as about as accurate.


“I am impressed that "straw man argument" is in your vocabulary. But you have not convinced me that you know what it means.”

Would you not consider you complaining of being called a racist, when no one has, a straw man argument? Or how about you complaining about being silenced, when no has done so? But speaking of being silenced, Orly Taitz regularly blocks on her blog commenters who have the temerity to disagree. Before complaining about censorship, try policing your side of the fence first.


“After all, you want me to go into my "tinfoil rabbit hole."”

You are the one who put yourself there. And if you don’t think the rabbit hole you are going down isn’t covered with tinfoil, then please show this blog to your professional colleagues (if you have any), and tell you think Obama isn’t eligible to be president, and that you consider the work of Berg and Taitz to be fine lawyering.


“But that is par for the course, for you wallow in self-righteousness and hypocricy [sic].”

I’ve done nothing self-righteous or hypocritical here, but if there’s anyone enamored with hearing their own voice, it is you.


“Final word, that Obama is not eligible to be President of the United States is no "molehill."”

What do Obama’s religious beliefs have to do with his eligibility to be president? Wouldn’t that be some sort of religious test?

Anonymous said...

It's not the nature of Obama's religious beliefs that matter first of all but that we simply can't believe what he says because it isn't logical and couldn't hold up in court. There is no corroborating evidence to his statements. Anonymous, ou can say all that you want to confuse the issue, as a true-blue Obot, but the evidence is against your words. He doesn't attend any church regularly and he didn't have a Christian upbringing.

Puzo1 said...

To Anonymous:

I guess by now this has become an addiction for you. I understand, it is very entertaining. I would also add that it makes for good mind exercise, much better than watching some boring television program.

I know that the birth certificate is in Hawaii. But Obama will not let us have a copy. I thought maybe you knew the gentleman and could persuade him to let us nosy folks have a little peak. I would be elated to be able to take a gander and report to the whole world just what it says.

In judging Obama's credibity, I do not give much weight to the possible self-serving statements of Obama's sister, who campaigned for him at various coffee clutches. Rather, in judging Obama, I give greater weight to the beliefs of the people he hung around with like, among the many others who I will not mention here, his mother, whom he says was such a great influence in his life. After all, birds of a feather flock together. Don't you just love that cliche'. I am not aware of any statement made by his mother concerning her son's religious beliefs. Maybe you can share them with me.

Again I commend you for recognizing that one does not need to be an expert in a subject to recognize contradictions in that area. See, there is still hope for you.

Your comment that "[t]he out put is identical" is cute but no cigar.

Your appeal to history (Carnac the Great, who ever or whatever he is) gives neither you nor your argument any additional credibility.

You know, I just do not get it with you. You say things and do not realize the consequences of what you are saying. You are full of contradictions. You complain that I said "you guys" but then at the same time you want me to police "your [my] side of the fence." My question: "Who is "your side." The reason for your falling into these traps is because you are hiding behind a wall and do not want the truth to be known. When one speaks the truth clearly, there are no traps to fall into.

Your justification in using the term "tinfoil rabbit hole" is nothing more than circular reasoning. You figure it out, by letting it circle around your mind a little.

Now you are really cooking. You want me to show my blog to my "professional colleagues, "if you [me] have any." First, my blog is posted on the internet which means the whole world can read it. I also have my name and my profession stated. I am not hiding who I am or what I am like you are, Mr. Anonymous. (How convenient of you that you do not give your "professional colleagues" a chance to test your little gibberish.) Hence, my professional colleagues can read my blog and comment as they wish. They will not be censored. Second, why do you believe that my professional colleagues would disagree with my opinions? Do you have some tap line to them that that has given you inside information? Maybe you can help both of us. Why do you not forward my blog to all the "professional colleagues" that you can think of and let us see what they think. We can even do a little poll if you want, provided that you did not send my blog only to those of your ilk which I doubt you would do. LOL

One final point which is very important for me to emphasize to you because you know nothing about it. The work of Berg and Taitz is more than fine lawyering. Their work is fine truth finding.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

Anonymous said...

"I know that the birth certificate is in Hawaii."

But it is in Kenya! Or Canada!


"But Obama will not let us have a copy."

He is not required to, has better things to do, and there's no political downside in ignoring this tiny minority. Rather simple, really.


"After all, birds of a feather flock together. Don't you just love that cliche'."

You might want to check out the some of the birds in the birfer flock before you start adopting that as your motto.


"I am not aware of any statement made by his mother concerning her son's religious beliefs."

And that's the point: You are trying to impugn Obama with his mother's beliefs. Obama has been fairly consistent in describing -- and acting upon -- his beliefs, yet you would hold his mother's beliefs against him. The bird has left the nest.

And the alternative is rather scary: Parsing his words to see if they sound Christian enough, and counting the amount of times he's gone to church since the election. This isn't a theocracy, and your "I'm just doubting his sincerity" is a rather hollow excuse.


"My question: "Who is "your side.""

Orly Taitz was specifically referenced; Philip Berg was also mentioned. Surely a bright boy like yourself doesn't need to be spoon fed.


"Your justification in using the term "tinfoil rabbit hole" is nothing more than circular reasoning."

The birfer universe is populated with people who see conspiracies where none exist, and who are hopelessly tilting at windmills in futile attempt to deny reality. If you don't think they have a tenuous grasp on reality, then you, too, should seek professional help.

The election is over; Obama won; what is done is done, and won't be undone.


"Hence, my professional colleagues can read my blog and comment as they wish."

Your little blog is a speck in the internet. *Show* it to them; don't wait for them to find it. Tell them to their faces what you believe, and then watch their reactions.


"Second, why do you believe that my professional colleagues would disagree with my opinions?"

The vast majority of people do; the legitimate bar is avoiding this issue like the plague.


"Why do you not forward my blog to all the "professional colleagues" that you can think of and let us see what they think."

It would be more helpful if you could list a few. Otherwise, it sounds like you are inviting me to stalk you; no thank you.


"We can even do a little poll if you want, provided that you did not send my blog only to those of your ilk which I doubt you would do."

Who is "my ilk"? Your sarcasm notwithstanding, you are actually describing the actions of those who believe AOL survey has any value.

You can set up a vanity poll if you like. If receiving adulations from birfers is important to you, go for it.


"The work of Berg and Taitz is more than fine lawyering."

For that statement alone, you should lose your license. Berg's and Taitz's lawyering is laughable, and an insult to the profession.


"Their work is fine truth finding."

Their methods are highly questionable. Taitz was posting the home addresses and phone numbers of Obama's elderly relatives and asking supporters to "contact" them to "convince" them to release Obama's birth certificate. (Invasion of privacy? Stalking?) And Taitz now hired a private investigator to see what properties are associated with Obama's name. Talk about a wild goose chase.

And their results speak volumes: What has been found? Nada. Oh, sure, there's been some old divorce papers, school records, etc. -- all of which prove nothing in particular. Where's the golden ticket: the fabled, mythical foreign birth certificate?

Again: Seek professional help. You are losing touch with reality.

Puzo1 said...

To Anonymous:

This will be my last response to you because your are not adding any further intelligent thought to our debate. I will only address some of your points, for the rest do not merit any further response.

"The election is over; Obama won; what is done is done, and won't be undone." YOU HOPE.

"Your little blog is a speck in the internet" YOU FOUND IT.

"The legitimate bar is avoiding this issue like the plague." CORRECT

One final point: You seem to be well informed about this whole controversy, suggesting that you have been following this debate for some time. Why are you so interested? Why do you spy in on us looneys? Why are you so interested in stopping many concerned Americans from exercising their Constitutional rights to speak, to petition their government, and to want to know who their would-be President is?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

Anonymous said...

“"The election is over; Obama won; what is done is done, and won't be undone." YOU HOPE.”

Hope is what is keeping alive your belief that Obama won’t be president, notwithstanding the unbroken sting of losses in court by Berg, Taitz, et al.


“"Your little blog is a speck in the internet" YOU FOUND IT.”

Because I was looking for this kind of material. I highly doubt your professional colleagues are following this nonsense. And where’s that list of colleagues to contact, so they can be informed about your little blog? As is often said in these parts, “If you have nothing to hide, then why won’t you just release the information?”


“"The legitimate bar is avoiding this issue like the plague." CORRECT”

Ever wonder why?


“Why do you spy in on us looneys?”

It’s a hobby (and “spy” is such a pejorative term for seeing what is in plain sight). But don’t feel too special; other looneys also are fun to poke.


“Why are you so interested in stopping many concerned Americans from exercising their Constitutional rights to speak, to petition their government, and to want to know who their would-be President is?”

No one is stopping you from researching Obama. Just please try to stay out of his way while he works on fixing this country.

And speak all you want; no one is stopping you, despite your repeated assertions otherwise (and the actual suppression of speech by your cohorts). Just don’t expect your stupidity to go unnoticed, or uncommented upon.

And if signing petitions, sending letters to Congress, and other makebusy work makes you happy, that’s great. It is like the Full Employment Act for Congressional Interns. (The cost of stamps, delivery services, etc. is a tax on the stupid, but thanks for stimulating the economy!)

And if you want to send your hard-earned money to hucksters and flim-flam artists singing a pretty song about “patriotism,” well that’s your right to be a fool as well.

But the DOJ (FBI, US Attorneys, etc.) have better things to do, like catching actual criminals. Gumming up its system with this nonsense will produce no results, and distracts it from doing real work.

Moreover, these lawsuits are a waste of precious judicial resources. As an attorney, you should know better. Judicial eyeballs on these cases means judicial eyeballs NOT on your cases. And then there are attorneys, attorneys!, sending “open letters” to courts and encouraging others to jam the courts with letters, faxes, e-mails, and phone calls. Is that how justice works? By mob rule?

For shame.

Puzo1 said...

To Anonymous:

I thought I would answer you so that I could prevent you from getting a good night's sleep.

CORN AND MORE CORN.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

Anonymous said...

I like corn.

Puzo1 said...

I can see that.

Anonymous said...

Are we talking in code now?

Anonymous said...

"“In his 1995 memoir Dreams from My Father Barack Obama wrote, ‘My mother's confidence in needlepoint virtues depended on a faith I didn't possess... In a land [Indonesia] where fatalism remained a necessary tool for enduring hardship... she was a lonely witness for secular humanism, a soldier for New Deal, Peace Corps, position-paper liberalism.’"[38]"

So, what else did Ayres have to write about this?

Puzo1 said...

Regarding Ayers, could you explain a little more.

Anonymous said...

Some believe Ayers ghostwrote Obama's memoirs.

Anonymous said...

#####
Baptists don't consider Catholics Christians
either. What's your point.
#######

Puzo1 said...

I cannot answer you because I do not know what your point is.

Puzo1 said...

Egyptian Foreign Minister: Obama told me himself, "I am a Muslim."
By Pamela Geller, Atlas Shrugs

Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Aboul Gheit said he had a one-on-one meeting with Obama, in which President Obama told him that he was still a Muslim, the son of a Muslim father, the stepson of Muslim stepfather, that his half brothers in Kenya are Muslims, and that he was sympathetic towards the Muslim agenda.

"Finally, during the week of 14-18th of January 2010, just on the eve of my winter tour to the US, Rachel picked up a Nile TV broadcast in which Egyptian Foreign Minister Abul Gheit said on the "Round Table Show" that he had had a one on one meeting with Obama who swore to him that he was a Moslem, the son of a Moslem father and step-son of Moslem step-father, that his half-brothers in Kenya were Moslems, and that he was loyal to the Moslem agenda. He asked that the Moslem world show patience. Obama promised that once he overcame some domestic American problems (Healthcare), that he would show the Moslem world what he would do with Israel."

Read The Full Story: http://www.westernjournalism.com/egyptian-foreign-minister-obama-told-me-himself-i-am-a-muslim/

Led said...

Barry is a liar about his place of birth and his religion. He must be an American born citizen and he never proved it. He should never have been sworn in before this was cleared up 100%. It is the law. He is a practicing Muslim. Just look at all the pictures of him praying in mosques all over.

Led