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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti burped: President Obama was, for all practical purposes, born in Hawai'i.

When the hell did the conversation devolve to discussing your version of "practical purposes"?

I must have missed that turn.
I thought that topic was whether or not he was born in the United States at all. As in REALITY!

You language implies that you have a ton of doubt on that point, as you should.

"As far as any US court is concerned President Obama was born in Hawai'i."

Who died and made them God? The People have a House and its members are not held to what a court might feel limited by.

" As long as the State of Hawai'i says someone was born in Hawai'i, you can't question the facts of their birth without questioning the facts of everyone's birth."

Question: Who the hell is "you"? I can question "the facts" of Obama's birth claims as well as everyone else, including both houses of Congress. Or do they have to first get the permission of you or your cohorts in the courts?

As for Hawaiian claims; there has never been a legitimate, binding, official legal claim by anyone in an official capacity in Hawaii about the nature of the original record in their paper archives.

All they issue is unsigned pieces of paper with no signature and no official embossed stamp. And those claims only refer to things that can be forms of records that are not original, but merely digital, in their data-base, including any inserted fraudulent record which, surprise! "matches" the information seen in the White House counterfeit.

I think you know all of this. Acknowledging it is impossible for a weasel such as yourself.

PS. Goodbye. I trust you won't find another forum to spew your tightly held delusions.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti burped: President Obama was, for all practical purposes, born in Hawai'i.

When the hell did the conversation devolve to discussing your version of "practical purposes"?

I must have missed that turn.
I thought that topic was whether or not he was born in the United States at all. As in REALITY!

You language implies that you have a ton of doubt on that point, as you should.

"As far as any US court is concerned President Obama was born in Hawai'i."

Who died and made them God? The People have a House and its members are not held to what a court might feel limited by.

" As long as the State of Hawai'i says someone was born in Hawai'i, you can't question the facts of their birth without questioning the facts of everyone's birth."

Question: Who the hell is "you"? I can question "the facts" of Obama's birth claims, as well as can everyone else, including both houses of Congress. Or do they have to first get the permission of you or your cohorts in the courts?

As for Hawaiian claims; there has never been a legitimate, binding, official legal claim by anyone in an official capacity in Hawaii about the nature of the original record in their paper archives.

All they issue is unsigned "verification"/ "New Release" pieces of uncertified paper with no signature and no official embossed stamp.
And those claims only refer to things that can be forms of records that are not original, but merely digital, in their data-base, including any inserted fraudulent record which, surprise! "matches" the information seen in the White House counterfeit.

I think you know all of this. Acknowledging it is impossible for a weasel such as yourself.

PS. Goodbye. I trust you won't find another forum to spew your tightly held delusions.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

I said that Unknown’s and your mythical law has to call someone who meets its requirements a “citizen of the United States,” with those requirements also satisfying the definition of a “natural born citizen” under “common law,” not under “natural law,” which in your book means anything you want it to mean. You say no one can find the common law, yet the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) had no trouble finding it and even told us that it defines a “natural born citizen.”

So, in your search for that mythical law about which you and Unknown have talked so much, you have only been able to find the Naturalization Act of 1795. But even if I said “natural law,” the 1795 Naturalization Act is not “natural law, “ but rather positive or municipal law, which is the very law that you spurn when it comes to your natural citizens.

Also, the 1795 Act removed “natural born citizen” and replaced it with “citizen of the United States,” indicating that the Third Congress (with Rep. James Madison, President Washington, and many other founders and framers) concluded that any special retroactive “natural born citizen” treatment of such children provided by the 1790 Act was either not needed (the late troubles of the Revolutionary War did not reveal that such treatment was necessary) or not warranted when it came to who may be eligible to the Office of President, and that such children were in truth “citizens of the United States” and not “natural born citizens.” After all, Congress well knew that Article II in its presidential eligibility section called for among those born after the adoption of the Constitution only a “natural born citizen” to be eligible for the Office of President. So, such foreign-born “citizens of the United States” not only did not meet the common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” but the statute itself neither made them nor called them “natural born citizens.” The Third Congress acting the way that it did in removing the “natural born citizen” designation from those foreign-born children also demonstrates that Congress believed that being born to U.S. citizen parents, when that birth occurred out of the United States, did not prevent it from acting upon those children with its naturalization powers. Hence, the 1795 Act did not call any person a “citizen of the United States” with such person also being a “natural born citizen” under the common law or even under the very act itself.

Also, Abraham Lincoln was born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents. Why would he even be interested in wanting to prove his citizenship under a provision of a naturalization act that applied to children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents? Surely, if Unknown and you are correct, there must have been a law existing when he was born that called a person situated as he was, i.e., born in the country to citizen parents, a “citizen of the United States” so he could prove that he was eligible to be a member of Congress. Just think how wonderful it would be for both you and Unknown to find such a law. You would then be able to say to me that here is a “citizen of the United States” who was also a “natural born citizen” and I would not be able to argue that all “natural born citizens” were entitled to all the privileges, immunities, and rights of “citizens of the United States” and that is the reason why they were eligible for Congress in Article I, not that they were “citizens of the United States” under some then- existing law.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast: Don't call me stupid.

Mario Apuzzo: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn pants with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?

Slartibartfast: Apes don't read philosophy.

Mario Apuzzo: Yes they do. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? The American common law is not the English common law. A “natural born citizen” is not the same thing as a “natural born subject.” And a born citizen is not the same thing as a “natural born citizen.” Those are all mistakes, Slartibartfast. I looked them up.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark explained:

“Mr. Binney, in the second edition of a paper on the Alienigenae of the United States, printed in pamphlet at Philadelphia, with a preface bearing his signature and the date of December 1, 1853, said: . . . ‘The right of citizenship never descends in the legal sense, either by the common law, or under the common naturalization acts. It is incident to birth in the country, or it is given personally by statute. The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle.’ [666] p. 22, note.”

Id. at 665-66.

He provided this quote twice. What Mr. Binney said is that there is no such thing as jus sanguinis citizenship (citizenship descending from one’s parents) under either the common law or the naturalization acts. As far as he was concerned, citizenship by birth in the country occurred by virtue of being born in the country and nothing else. Also, for those born out of the country, citizenship occurred only by naturalization statute that applied personally to a person and not by inheriting citizenship from one’s parents. Under American law, Binney was correct as to children born out of the United States, for Congress has the power to decide by naturalization acts whether a child born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents shall be a “citizen of the United States.” But as to children born in the United States, Mr. Binney was wrong because, apart that the early naturalization Acts of Congress (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855) implicitly recognized only children born in the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents as not needing naturalization and treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born, the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875), consistent with those naturalization acts, held in 1875:

“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case, it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens."

Id. at 167-68. We can see that Minor said that at common law a child had to be born in the county to citizen parents in order to be both a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen.” Minor added that under that common law all persons not satisfying these two factors were “aliens or foreigners,” who needed to naturalize under an Act of Congress or treaty. That statement from our U.S. Supreme Court surely shoots down what Binney said about the force of being born in the country under common law. Going beyond saying that the common law did not allow such pure jus soli citizenship, Minor added that “there have been doubts” whether a child by mere birth in the country, regardless of the citizenship of his or her parents, was even a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment (to be distinguished from the common law). Hence, under common law, jus sanguinis (birth to citizen parents) was an additional necessary element of being a “citizen” and “natural born citizen” by virtue of birth in the country. And Minor added that “there have been doubts” whether a child born in the United States, lacking jus sanguinis, was even a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

What Binney (and therefore Justice Gray) said about the role jus sanguinis played in citizenship by virtue of birth in the country, is also contradicted by his acknowledgement of the critical distinction between “[t]he child of an alien, if born in the country” and “the natural-born child of a citizen” who was also born in the country. While they were both citizens by virtue of being born in the country, both Binney and Justice Gray recognized that they were not the same. What they both said was that a “citizen of the United States” child born in the United States to alien parents is as much a citizen as a “natural born citizen” child born in the United States to citizen parents. But from that we can conclude that such a “citizen of the United States” was not a “natural born citizen.” First, he called the latter “natural born” and not the former. Second, if the two were the same, there would not have been any reason to set the two classes of citizen out in such a comparative dichotomy and argue that the former should be allowed to be a “citizen” just like a “natural born citizen” is because the former was born in the country just like a “natural born citizen.” So, if jus sanguinis played no role in the common law to make any child born in the country a citizen, then why would Binney and Justice Gray acknowledge that a child born in the country to alien parents was just a “citizen,” but a child born in the United States to citizen parents was not only a “citizen,” but also a “natural born citizen?”

To better understand this, consider that if we argue that a poodle is as much a dog as a German Shepherd, we are implicitly recognizing that both are dogs, but they are not the same dogs. And this understanding is perfectly correct, for even though a poodle is as much a dog as a German Shepherd, surely a poodle is not a German Shepherd.

So, Slartibartfast, you have also failed us on this aspect of the Wong Kim Ark decision.

Unknown said...


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You are still having difficulty understanding Article II."

I prefer an understanding that corresponds to reality over your understanding.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I have asked you this several times before, but other than your just repeating your Lincoln example, you have yet to provide a responsive answer."

Lincoln is a counter-example to your assertion:

"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.”


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Both Minor and Wong Kim Ark told us that the original Constitution does not define either a 'citizen of the United States' or a 'natural born citizen.'"

The Constitution does not define most of its terms. That doesn't make them unfathomable mysteries.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"So, I need for you to cite for me [...]"

I'm posting what I need to refute your claim. A counter-example does that.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"some applicable law that was in effect when Lincoln was born in 1809 (which is pre-Civil Rights Act of 1866 and 14th Amendment) that called a person with Lincoln’s birth circumstances, i.e., born in the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents, a 'citizen of the United States' and thus made him eligible for Congress under Article I, Section 2."

I will simply assume that Lincoln was Constitutional eligible for the seat he held in the House of Representatives. If you believe my argument unsound because that premise is false, then I hope you will state that belief as clearly and directly as possible.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Can you meet my challenge or can you just honestly admit that you cannot find any such law which takes a person who meets the definition of a 'natural born citizen' under the common law and calls him a 'citizen of the United States?'"

That challenge I, and Slartibartfast and A.R. Nash, already met. A person who meets the definition of a 'natural born citizen' also qualifies as what Article I calls a "citizen of the United States". Abraham Lincoln is a nice example because he actually held Constitutional offices that required each.

I have not, as you noted, Mr. Apuzzo, proven that Lincoln was eligible for his offices. I would love to hear you argue that he was not.

Unknown said...

Children of americans born in the US have never been in a naturalisation act but children of americans born outside of US have been and were called citizens of the US in NA 1795. It is pretty weaselly to say Lincoln was a citizen of the US which allowed him to serve in congress but shouldve DQd him from being CiC in a2 because he was born after adoption. He was obviously a natural born citizen and a citizen of the US which made him eligible for Congress and President. All Qbs are football players but not all football players are Qbs just like all NBCs are citizens but not all citizens are NBCs.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"Mario wrote: ...and that such children were in truth “citizens of the United States” and not “natural born citizens."

That version is true. What is NOT true is the opposite or reverse. One cannot say that NBCs are not citizens of the United States, aka Americans.

" What they both said was that a “citizen of the United States” child born in the United States to alien parents is as much a citizen as a “natural born citizen” child born in the United States to citizen parents."

No, they said no such thing. Those were not their words nor their implications. They only said: “[t]he child of an alien, if born in the country”
Why did you replace their words with your own when yours carry a completely different context? You can't do that and then rebut the result which they were not responsible for.

"But from that we can conclude that such a “citizen of the United States” was not a “natural born citizen.” Again true because of the qualifier "such a citizen" "All citizens..." would be false.

But you can't say "No citizen of the U.S. is a NBC. That would be looney bin time.

"there would not have been any reason to set the two classes of citizen out in such a comparative dichotomy"

Your point is correct but your language is dreadful. It implies they identified "citizen of the United States" as a class for comparison when not only did they do no such thing, but if they did it would be flat out insane.
The class they identified for comparison was "native-born children of aliens". They are not NBC as accurately stated.

"Binney and Justice Gray acknowledge that a child born in the country to alien parents was just a “citizen,”.
That isn't an accurate portrayal of their conclusion. Rather it was that such children are equal to those whom they are not born as. (NBC).
Also, with 97% of the population being nbc, one could and should call them also, "just citizens" since they are the very common norm.

Children of aliens might be called atypical, non-common, "other than average or normal or other than "just citizens" like the rest.

Remember, the legal alien-born are a tiny fraction of American births and American population. You need to think of them as the rare out-liers, -the white buffaloes, the black swans while all of the rest are NBC.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adrien Nash,

I said that Unknown’s and your mythical law has to call someone who meets its requirements a “citizen of the United States,” with those requirements also satisfying the definition of a “natural born citizen” under “common law,”

Mario, too much cognac? You said the very opposite;
Mario wrote: you cannot find any such law which takes a person who meets the definition of a “natural born citizen” under the common law and calls him a “citizen of the United States?”

ALL NATURAL BORN CITIZENS ARE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES, i.e., AMERICANS.

"-not under “natural law,” which in your book means anything you want it to mean."

THAT is the black kettle calling the porcelain teapot black. Natural Law, as you know, means the Law of Nature. Nature's law is that the off-spring mirror the parents, inheriting their nature. Natural inheritance. Why do you falsely assert that that is my definition?
YOU are the one with the common law definition that "means anything you want it to mean."

Mario says: "You say no one can find the common law, yet the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) had no trouble finding it."

Well then you shouldn't either. Please direct me straight to it so I can consult its statutes. Unless they are all in the imagination of you and the judges.

American citizenship is not determined by common law but by Natural Law or by statute. By jus sanguinis for 97% of the population, and by jus soli for the rest.

You can't turn and say that that is merely legal recognition of citizenship and not constitutional recognition because natural citizenship is not recognized by any law other than the 1790 Nat. Act proclaiming the nature of the citizenship of foreign-born American children. Aside from that, the 97% enjoy a priori citizenship which is before and beyond the authority of government.

That is why Snowden is still an American. His citizenship supercedes the authority of the government. It cannot be revoked for the acts he's committed because they couldn't change what he is. He is American by nature, by birth, by blood, by sanguinity, by patrilineal descent, by birthright inheritance.
Is that impossible for you to grasp? It seems it is.

No American's citizenship is determined by a combination of the jus soli and jus sanguinis. No now, not ever.
The natural born citizen of your fantasy does not exist, and none of your authorities claimed the conclusion you attribute to them.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash wrote;

Natural citizens are those born as citizens by being born of citizens. Don't call that my definition. I'm not mother nature. I didn't make the rules of natural membership.

But I kid myself when I fail to bear in mind that in your mind no natural influence is supreme.

The almighty immutable forces and principles of nature must take a backseat to your almighty human law recipe that gilds a simple basic observation and enshrines it as a golden idol of constitutional definition. You see a flawless doctrine. I see the blind leading the blind.

"Jus soli + jus sanguinis" is a recipe out of someone's imagination. It's a fiction that cannot be found anywhere in the laws of any nation on earth, -including ours. Never could.
You have a great and inescapable need to deny that truth, but it won't go away.
You can defend it but can never substantiate it by actual law or by inerrant logic or by Natural Law.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "
"The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.”

That is a very flawed manner of writing and thinking. The constitution said no such thing. That statement is a flawed extrapolation of its mandate.
It mandated that only citizens of the U.S. at the time of the adoption were eligible, along with natural born citizens without limitation.

It did not say who could not be eligible after the adoption. It only said who is eligible at the time of its adoption and who is eligible without reference to beginning nor termination of eligibility.
That does not translate the way the logic of your wording requires. The correct translation is that all acceptable U.S. citizens living at adoption were eligible, and all natural born U.S. citizens are eligible without qualification.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stanger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

Would you explain how one can be only a “natural born” member of one’s parents’ society when one is born to those parents in a foreign society, which under its positive and municipal laws causes one to be born also a member of that foreign society.

I said that Unknown’s and your mythical law has to call someone who meets its requirements a “citizen of the United States,” with those requirements also satisfying the definition of a “natural born citizen” under common law. You said that I have had too much cognac, for according to you I said the opposite when I said: “You cannot find any such law which takes a person who meets the definition of a “natural born citizen” under the common law and calls him a “citizen of the United States.” It looks like you are the one who has hoarded and drunk all the cognac, for you cannot tell that the statements say the same thing.

Furthermore, your criticism of my advocacy of the union of jus soli and jus sanguinis at birth to make a “natural born citizen,” arguing that no nation in the world, including the United States, requires such union to make a “citizen” or "subject" of that nation, is a straw man argument. Under the U.S. Constitution, as it applies to presidential eligibility, we are not talking about a “citizen,” but rather a “natural born citizen,” who as I have demonstrated, unlike a “citizen” or “citizen of the United States,” requires the union of jus soli and jus sanguinis at the time of birth. That under the citizenship systems of the world being a “citizen” or “subject” of those nations (in the United States a “citizen of the United States”) does not require both jus soli and jus sanguinis, but rather either one or the other, is not controlling on the question of what is a “natural born citizen” simply because a “citizen” or “subject” or “citizen of the United States” is one thing and a “natural born citizen” is another. Under our Constitution, our President and Commander must be not only a “citizen,” but a “natural born citizen.” And our constitutional national common law informing who is a “natural born citizen” must be followed, not the positive or municipal laws informing who is a “citizen” or “subject” or “citizen of the United States,” regardless of whether that law is that of foreign countries or even our own.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

You and Unknown do not like my statement: "The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.” Both of you argue that my statement is not correct because there still could have been “citizens of the United States” who were “natural born citizens.”

But I have asked you and Unknown to provide for me one law existing at the time the Constitution was ratified calling someone a “citizen of United States” and which under that law that person was also a “natural born citizen.” Both of you have failed and you continue to fail to provide any such law.

So where is the law that made your “citizen of the United States” existing at the time the Constitution was ratified also a “natural born citizen” and hence still eligible to be President? Please help me find that law or even you mythical “citizen of the United States.”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

Do you really think that you make any cogent arguments that convince anyone by simply arguing that there is something to be distinguished, wrong, stupid, or insane with every word that someone else other than you utters? To date, you have done nothing more than take from others what you like and pass if off here and on your blog as your own, and then attack with nothing more than contempt what others including courts say which does not support your theory that no matter where one is born in the world one may be a “natural born citizen,” provided one is born to a citizen father.

As others have told you, your arguments are full of contradictions and not based on any historical and legal evidence. Your “natural law” theories are nothing but the figment of your own imagination which you twist and turn to produce your desired result. That is not the way real law works.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

I asked you: "Can you meet my challenge or can you just honestly admit that you cannot find any such law which takes a person who meets the definition of a 'natural born citizen' under the common law and calls him a 'citizen of the United States?'"

You replied: “That challenge I, and Slartibartfast and A.R. Nash, already met. A person who meets the definition of a 'natural born citizen' also qualifies as what Article I calls a ‘citizen of the United States’. Abraham Lincoln is a nice example because he actually held Constitutional offices that required each.

I have not, as you noted, Mr. Apuzzo, proven that Lincoln was eligible for his offices. I would love to hear you argue that he was not.”
+++

Reply:

Yours is a straw man argument. I never said that a “natural born citizen” does not qualify as a “citizen of the United States” as called for by Article I, Section 2 and 3, so as to be eligible to be a Representative or Senator. I also did not say that Abraham Lincoln was not eligible to be a Representative or President. That is an absurd argument that you want to ascribe to me in order to win this debate. On the contrary, I have always maintained that a “natural born citizen” possesses all the privileges, immunities, and rights possessed by a “citizen of the United States,” including and not limited to the right to be elected Representative or Senator. I have also maintained that a “citizen of the United States” is just that and no more unless he or she also satisfies the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

So, we are back to you and your failure to support your unstated but implicit position that the Constitution provided that there were “citizens of the United States” born after its adoption who could be eligible to be President. The simple point that you miss is that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, it is not being “citizens of the United States” that makes them eligible to be President, but rather being “natural born citizens.” You evade the issue by telling us that Abraham Lincoln was both a “natural born citizen” and a “citizen of the United States.” But Lincoln was eligible to be President, not because he was a “citizen of the United States,” but rather because he was a “natural born citizen.” Regarding Lincoln wanting to be President, it was not necessary that he be both a “natural born citizen” and a “citizen of the United States” and that he was. Rather, what was necessary was that he was a “natural born citizen.” So your Lincoln example proves nothing.

You still have not demonstrated that there exists any “citizen of the United States” under any law (hint the Fourteenth Amendment), which does not call that “citizen of the United States” also a “natural born citizen,” and consequently which requires separately that that “citizen of the United States” also satisfy the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen” as provided by Minor v. Happersett (1875) and which was confirmed by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) in order to be a “natural born citizen,” who is also a “natural born citizen” under that law alone.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Your other huge failure is not being able to prove as you allege that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers had a definition of a “natural born citizen” other than a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of their birth.

As I have said to you numerous times already, Obama, if born in the United States, is a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, and Cruz is a “citizen of the United States” under a naturalization act of Congress. But neither of them is “a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution” which status, along with satisfying the 35-year age and 14-year residency requirements, allowed those persons to be eligible to be President. Hence, to be eligible to be President, they must prove they are “natural born citizens” under the one and only constitutional national common law definition of that clause, which, with Obama being born to a non-U.S. citizen father (not born to citizen parents) and Cruz being born in Canada (not born in the country) to a non-U.S. citizen father (not born to citizen parents), neither are.

MichaelN said...

Thanks to Free Republic's posting Mario Apuzzo's article on John Woodman and his deliberately misleading garbage, Woodman's treachery.

"The Faux Claims of John Woodman Regarding the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause
By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
April 2, 2012

An excerpt...

"John Woodman’s comments and rhetoric add nothing to our correct understanding of the meaning of an Article II “natural born Citizen." - Mario Apuzzo, Esq.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2867724/posts

Question for big-mouth John the con.....

Where in the English common law was it EVER held that native-birth alone was sufficient to make an English "subject-born"?

Slartybartfast has done a runner when confronted with this, RealityCheck is in hiding, Unknown aka Not Linda is in denial and pretends she can't see the question, Ballantine buries his/her head in the sand, as does NBC, Dr Conspiracy and his pathetic sycophantic gang ban people from his blog who ask this question as does the prize idiot Fogbow on his sleazy blog.

Come on boys and girls, where in English common law does it say that the word "natural" actually refers solely to native-birth?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...
Would you explain how one can be only a “natural born” member of one’s parents’ society when one is born to those parents in a foreign society, which under its positive and municipal laws causes one to be born also a member of that foreign society."

Gee, I guess you must be new here and have missed the hundred or so replies in which I've explained exactly that.
~LAW HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT!

Would you explain to me how one can be only a “natural born” member of one’s parents’ FAMILY when one is born to those parents in a foreign society? What law makes that the case?

Answer in both cases: NATURAL LAW! THE LAW OF NATURE! UNALIENABLE RIGHT OF BELONGING TO ONE'S own BLOOD RELATIVES, -whether at the family level or the national level.
There is NO DIFFERENCE! MEMBERSHIP IS AUTOMATIC! FREE PASS! NO TICKET NEEDED! NO TSA INSPECTION REQUIRED. ACCEPTANCE GUARANTEED! YOU CAN ENTER RIGHT IN. WELCOME LITTLE ONE, TO YOUR FAMILY! (as in immediate and national)

All you need is a birth certificate or reasonable proof of paternity and maternity.

As for the other issue: you reversed the order of the two subjects in your second challenge. Why were you unable to spot that? When I read the second challenge I could immediately see its flaw, and its difference from the first one. I addressed the challenge successful, but the first one remained intact, it being the opposite.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes;

Mario opined: "your arguments are full of contradictions"

Really? Pray tell. When will you deign to reveal one to me? You need to do that. Show a contradiction in my description of Natural Law and actual Natural Law, i.e., -the Law of Nature. Please explain what the Law of Nature is which conflicts with what I've pointed out. I won't expect a response since one is impossible.

Mario wrote: "Obama, if born in the United States, is a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment,"

If you have not learned in the last year or two that Obama does not qualify for 14th Amendment citizenship, then you have learned nothing.

That reveals that your thinking process is inflexible. Dogma is in full control. Discussion is pointless. So there is no reason left to attempt to enlighten you. You can't learn. You mind is cement.
That being the case, I shall try to resist wasting my time any further in that pursuit.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

If it’s all natural law and national boundaries are all artificial as you contend, then why do you even care whether DF President Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen” of the United States?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

You said:

“Actually, that is possible merely by referencing the Naturalization Act of 1795. That all American children are U.S. natural born citizens was settled forever by the act of 1790, written and/ or passed by many of the framers of the Constitution.

They actually knew what the reality of American citizenship was. And that is American parentage. Americans produce Americans. Citizens produce Citizens. Period.”

+++

But you always tell us that positive or municipal laws have nothing to do with “natural born members.” So why then do you in your comment rely upon a positive law passed by Congress to show that “all American children are U.S. natural born citizens was settled forever by the act of 1790?” You being such a “natural law” guy, I would never imagine that you would give an act of Congress a power to decide one’s membership “forever.” Please do explain.

Unknown said...

I do not know why George Washington and company changed NA 1795 and called children of americans born outside of US "citizens of the US" but they must have felt it was a mistake to consider them as NBCs in NA 1790. Looking at both naturalisation acts is proof to me that the real natural born citizens who are eligible for CiC in the eyes of the Framers are children of americans born in the US or children of americans serving in military and born outside of US as described in law of nations.

Carlyle said...

Mario -

While debunking and demonizing OBOTS is amusing and potentially useful, the quantity has become overwhelming.

At what point does your posting all the nonsense become, in essence, a "denial of service" attack -- in that the Truth is mixed in with so much error that it is impossible to distill what is needed from amongst the surplus of dross?

Unknown said...

For several years, I've read repeated posts from many different posters on here and other forums claiming that if born in the U.S. to non-citizen parents, an individual would have to be naturalized in order to be considered a U.S. citizen and they would never be considered natural born. However, I've never heard of anyone who has been used as an example of this theory. Can you provide any proof of those who have had to undergo the naturalization process despite being born on U.S. soil? I would think that among the many people who ascribe to this theory, there must be someone who actually knows someone who can validate it by providing proof of having become a naturalized citizen. Orly Taitz claims her sons are not natural born citizens yet she's never admitted that they were naturalized at any point in their lives. Surely that would be important to her considering she says she became a naturalized citizen after living here for five years. Why wouldn't she make sure her children were afforded the same privileges that come with citizenship? If Taitz refuses to provide proof of her children becoming naturalized citizens due to being born on U.S. soil to non-citizens, there must be someone who can provide proof of this being a necessary step under similar circumstances.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "So why then do you in your comment rely upon a positive law passed by Congress to show that “all American children are U.S. natural born citizens was settled forever by the act of 1790?”

My God man! Where have you been? I've explain over and over that Congress had no authority over anything but the uniform rule of making the alien-born U.S. citizens via State process.
The citizen-born are not ALIENS!!! They did not need naturalization.
I have explained that extensively in my latest exposition which is not online yet. That was one of the main focuses of it.

As I explain, Congress had only one concern when mentioning foreign-born Americans, and it wasn't protecting, nor "granting" their American citizenship.

It was that those ignorant of Natural Law, and only steeped through life and law school in British law, would wonder and suspect that such children were not eligible to be President since the Brits failed to acknowledge the underlying Natural Law that would naturally dictate the nationality of foreign-born English children. They did what you think Congress did; made it so by positive law.

But that first Congress sought only to protect the natural rights of the likes of sons of Jefferson & Adams born while serving as Ambassadors by making the nature of their national membership clear.

Just ask yourself; "By what Natural Law would their children be born as aliens to them and their nation?" No law of nature produces that result, but instead produces the exact opposite.

Congress had no authority in the matter, but it had an opportunity in the act to proclaim for the unclear what the truth is so there would be no unequal treatment given to those who were just as much Americans as their domestically born brothers.

Congress used that opportunity, not to protect, nor provide mere citizenship, but presidential eligibility. That was its intent and its result.
The later acts did not change that by referring to them using the full umbrella title for all Americans.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Adam Kennedy,

I of II

You asked:

“For several years, I've read repeated posts from many different posters on here and other forums claiming that if born in the U.S. to non-citizen parents, an individual would have to be naturalized in order to be considered a U.S. citizen and they would never be considered natural born. However, I've never heard of anyone who has been used as an example of this theory. Can you provide any proof of those who have had to undergo the naturalization process despite being born on U.S. soil? I would think that among the many people who ascribe to this theory, there must be someone who actually knows someone who can validate it by providing proof of having become a naturalized citizen. Orly Taitz claims her sons are not natural born citizens yet she's never admitted that they were naturalized at any point in their lives. Surely that would be important to her considering she says she became a naturalized citizen after living here for five years. Why wouldn't she make sure her children were afforded the same privileges that come with citizenship? If Taitz refuses to provide proof of her children becoming naturalized citizens due to being born on U.S. soil to non-citizens, there must be someone who can provide proof of this being a necessary step under similar circumstances.”

+++

Reply:

When our nation began, its first members were “citizens.” They were not born in the United States, nor were they born to U.S. citizen parents. They became citizens by the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution. But their children born to them after July 4, 1776 in one of the states took on a different type of citizenship. At that time, under natural law and the law of nations, the children of citizens who were born to them in their country were known as “natural born citizens.” The founding generation adopted this law of nations rule into its common law. So, the children of the first citizens who were born to them on July 4, 1776 or thereafter in one of the states became the first “natural born citizens.” And all their descendants born to them in the United States took on the same “natural born citizen” status.

Since the United States needed more “citizens” and “natural born citizens” and not just the ones that descended from the original citizens, the Constitution gave to Congress the power to naturalize persons to become “citizens of the United States.” Under Congress’s naturalization statutes, there are various means by which a person can become a “citizen of the United States.” In none of these acts did Congress did Congress uses the common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” for it was not making “natural born citizens,” but rather “citizens of the United States.” One exception occurred in the 1790 Act wherein the First Congress, with only retroactive effect and not relying on the common law definition of a “natural born citizen, said that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents (which could only have occurred during the late troubles of the American Revolution) “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” But then the Third Congress in the 1795 Act removed that status and replaced it with “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Congress never again used the common law clause "natural born citizen" in any of its laws.

The early naturalization acts of Congress (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855) treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. When their parents formally naturalized and became “citizens of the United States,” their minor children dwelling in the United States automatically naturalized as “citizens of the United States” after birth. No naturalization records were needed for the

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

minor children. The same process occurred when alien wives married husbands who were either “natural born citizens” or “citizens of the United States.” They too automatically became naturalized “citizens of the United States” after birth, without any formal naturalization process. So, children provided their birth certificates and parents’ naturalization certificates to prove they were naturalized “citizens of the United States” and wives provided their marriage certificates and husband’s proof of U.S. citizenship to prove that they too were naturalized “citizens of the United States.”

In 1866, the Civil Rights Act, and in 1868, the Fourteenth Amendment, also provided for more “citizens of the United States.” Again, these were not “natural born citizen” as defined by common law. Not being “natural born citizens,” they were still naturalized “citizens of the United States” at birth, although automatically at birth and with no further naturalization process after birth. So where before children became automatic “citizens of the United States” after birth, now under the Civil Rights Act and the Fourteenth Amendment, they became automatic “citizens of the United States” at birth. Treaties also provide through their provisions for more “Citizens of the United States,” who, again, were not “natural born citizens” as so defined by common law. Treaty citizens continued to be “citizens of the United States” after birth. These first generation “citizens of the United States,” having gotten such status under the Fourteenth Amendment, Act of Congress, or treaty, having children in the United States while they were citizens, could then also produce more “natural born citizens,” and so went the process of producing more “natural born citizens” and “citizens of the United States.”

This all demonstrates that U.S. citizens can be either “natural born citizens” or “citizens of the United States,” naturalized at birth or thereafter. Also, a "natural born citizen" is, of course, necessarily a "citizen of the United States" in privileges, immunities, and rights.

If Orly Taitz’s children were born in the United States to one or two domiciled and resident alien parents, under the Fourteenth Amendment, Wong Kim Ark, and an Act of Congress, those children became automatically at birth “citizens of the United States.” That does not mean that they were not naturalized. In fact, not being “natural born citizens” because not born in the county to parents who were its citizens at the time of their birth, they had to be naturalized. But there was no formal naturalization needed. Rather, the Amendment simply made them “citizens of the United States” at birth, despite those children being born with alienage by being born to one or two alien parents (jus sanguinis citizenship). Because they were made “citizens of the United States” automatically at birth, there was no need for any formal naturalization proceedings after birth. So even though her children were technically naturalized at birth, there would not exist any naturalization documents nor would any be needed because the Fourteenth Amendment removed any need for such proceedings. So, we can see that even though Orly’s children were born on U.S. soil, they still would have been naturalized at birth by the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress. Also, because her children were automatically naturalized at birth, there is no need for Orly to produce any documents that they were so naturalized, for no such documents exist other than their birth certificates which is proof that they are “citizens of the United States” and entitled to all the privileges, immunities, and rights of “natural born citizens” except the right to be President or Vice-President.

MichaelN said...

" Adam Kennedy commented

Orly, you're lying about what SSA told you about Bounel. When you first asked about him, you included President Obama's SS#. They never said it belonged to Harrison J. Bounel or Harry L. Bounel. You later asked about Harry L. Bounel without using a SS# and that's why they have no record of him. Those of us who can read and comprehend English can easily understand what was said in the letters you've posted. Stop lying about President Obama, you rotten POS!

Adam Kennedy commented

Poor John Steel, he's as delusional as the idiot he blindly follows, Orly Taitz. Despite numerous instances displaying her incompetence, they continue to blame the Judges who rule against her. Her many subpoenas to Congress were invalid yet they ignore that fact and complain about Congress. Fogbowers charged with RICO? Going to jail? Time for you to seek the assistance of a mental health professional. You're absolutely nuts.

Adam Kennedy and 806 others liked

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2 years ago
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Stand with President Obama, join the fight now: http://my.barackobama.com/potusjobsvid…"

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MichaelN said...

@ Adam Kennedy, putting aside any bias, favoritism, political leanings....

Given the claims that Obama is a NBC, solely based on native-birth via the Wong Kim Ark case's mention that the US Constitution should be read in light of the English common law and it's history, specifically referring to Calvin's case, can YOU show where in the English common law it was held or opined that native-birth alone, sufficed to make a natural born subject?

All these people keep saying that native-birth is all that is needed to make a "natural born" subject/citizen, but no one seems to be able to show where it was so ruled or held.

I can't find it anywhere, can you?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: They became citizens by the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution. But their children born to them after July 4, 1776 in one of the states took on a different type of citizenship.
At that time,... the children of citizens who were born to them in their country in one of the states became the first “natural born citizens.”

That is false, -as I've explained numerous times.

All children of the colonial subjects were born as natural born subjects-citizens of their colony which became a sovereign nation-State.
By their rebellion, and unity they all became members of the allied American nation. The members of that unity were considered in the eyes of the world as citizens of the united States of America, and no longer subjects of Britain.

The Constitution never refers to natural born citizens of the United States. I made the mistake of assuming otherwise in many expositions which I now need to correct.
But I had an epiphany one day when in a 1787 frame of mind, and realized the framers were referring to themselves as the exceptions to the "No persons" prohibition.

They also did not want to exclude those foreign-born who had endured the hardship of the war for Independence, and included them next.

Their children became the first natural born citizens of the United States, but the Constitution's reference was not to
one's Union-wide national identity but to their sovereign State identity. One could not be a U.S. NBC if one was not a State NBC as the Constitution mandated.

Citizenship remained a State matter, -not a federal matter, -except as its extension.

One's nationality was American. One's citizenship was derived from their State membership. "A Citizen of Virginia". "A citizen of New York". etc.
All obligations and privileges of citizenship were State based, except national military service in dire emergency.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"there is no need for Orly to produce any documents that they were so naturalized, for no such documents exist other than their birth certificates..."

That is not quite technically correct because a birth certificate is not evidence of citizenship, and never has been. They, like the foreigner-born children of a naturalized man, upon showing their birth certificates, would also needed to show their parents evidence. With a naturalized foreign father it would be a certified copy of his naturalization document.

With a permanent resident, it would be the parent's Green Card. A Visa Card would make one ineligible, like Obama, because they are not subject to the full obligation of citizenship, namely the duty to defend the nation.
Visa Card holders cannot be drafted, tried for treason, ordered to never trade with a banned nation, nor to not visit one. But all citizens and permanent residents can be since they comprise the society that makes up the country and are fully subject to its authority, in theory, but in practice they must be male.

Stranger said...

a.r. nash writes:

Mario expounded: "So even though her children were technically naturalized at birth,..."

We have a problem, and it is the ambiguity of the term "naturalized". It means two different things. Both result in citizenship but by different forces.

I propose that we all stop writing and thinking of using the term in a non-discriminating manner. We need to discriminate between real naturalization and everything else involving automatic citizenship conveyance.

I've explained that children of naturalized foreigners obtain derivative citizenship via their blood connection to an American father (or mother). It is by jus sanguinis that they become what he has become; an American.

It is not by the so-called naturalization process. But...one can say they are natural-ized; i.e., "made natural" as Americans via the American artifice of law which recognizes all citizens as equals, as natural citizens under the doctrine of citizenship equality.
By it, they are not naturalized citizens but fictional natural citizens like their natural-ized father.

Those oblivious to the American principle of citizenship think there are basically two kinds of citizens, but that is heresy to a fundamental American principle; -that of EQUALITY FOR ALL.
No princes, no nobles, no aristocracy, and no separate nor inferior class of citizens.

For the Presidency, that fiction is suspended and superseded by a real-world imposition of a requirement that not quite all could meet.
One could not be under 35, less than a resident for 14 years, a race other than white, a gender other than male, a background other than educated, a character other than moral, a religion other than Christian, a Christian other than a Protestant, and a citizen other than citizen-born.

The alien-born need not apply because they are not natural born Americans.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN wrote: "All these people keep saying that native-birth is all that is needed to make a "natural born" subject/citizen, but no one seems to be able to show where it was so ruled or held.
I can't find it anywhere, can you?"

It was never held nor ruled but that didn't stop over-self-confident wind-bags with influence from stating it as though a fact. Such quotes can be found, but no such law.
But there is a significant point too easy to overlook. It is that even if that was British law, it could not change what the requirements of the 14th Amendment are.
It does not provide citizenship for all persons born in the United States. It requires something that was in fact also required in Britain, -namely; subjection. Not to the King, but to the moral, and legal, and political authority of our government in its role of protecting the nation.

If one was not born of a father subject to that authority, -but one fully subject to the authority of another government which is where he resides, which is his home and society and nation, then one was not born subject to the jurisdiction needed to make one a citizen.
That was what the 1866 Civil Rights Act meant, and is what the 14th Amendment means and requires.

By that requirement, Obama is not a 14th Amendment citizen since he was not born subject to any obligation other than that of his non-immigrant British subject father.

Unknown said...

if orly had children before she became a citizen of the US then the best they can be are citizens of the US. If her and her husband were citizens at time of their childs birth in US then they are natural born citizens...the 14th amendment naturalised the slaves who were born in US and subject to the jurisdiction thereof. Their naturalisation papers was the 14th amendment of the US Constitution and i imagine legit evidence or a real birth certificate ( unlike barry the fraud) that they were born in US. Saying you need naturalisation paperwork dishonest, moronic obot lie

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "-our constitutional national common law informing who is a “natural born citizen” must be followed, not the positive or municipal laws informing who is a “citizen” or “subject” or “citizen of the United States,” regardless of whether that law is that of foreign countries or even our own.

That is a legitimate position, but it doesn't follow that is takes reality into account.

As has been well proven here, the founders did not view the sons of aliens as American citizens, so such sons are not a focus of exclusion by the eligibility clause.
It's words meant: "No citizen...", and wasn't discriminating between non-citizens and citizens but between different types of citizens. What types existed? Only citizen-born citizens and alien-born citizens from states that allowed jus soli citizenship.
Both were born as citizens but by different means, -one natural, and the other legal.

Realize, that if the criterion of having American parents is what "natural born citizen" actually means, then by Natural Law the location of the birth of an American son would be irrelevant.

In that scenario, only the born citizens who were not natural citizens by birth would be the focus of the clause's exclusion (other than citizens after the adoption).
It's focus could not have been American sons born beyond the border because that would violate Natural Law and make them equally unacceptable as the alien-born, with whom they had nothing in common.
They would or might have no foreign roots, connections, relatives, inherited culture, subjection, or monarch.
All they would have regarding the foreign is what Vattel ridiculed as the insignificant location of birth.
That would not make them countrymen of the foreigners of that land because their American parents would not raise them to be anything other than appreciative of their heroic and free American heritage.

They would feel spiritual superior to any foreign nation they were raised in if raised abroad because Americans did not respect the authority of Kings and would never bow down to one.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario asked: But I have asked you and Unknown to provide for me one law existing at the time the Constitution was ratified calling someone a “citizen of United States” and which under that law that person was also a “natural born citizen.” Both of you have failed and you continue to fail to provide any such law."

I'm not sure you realize what you are asking. So I will ask you; do you? Do you realize that by your ambiguous question one can surmise that you are asking to be shown a law passed by the United States Congress and signed by the President of a nation that did not yet exist.

If you correct the record and claim that you were somehow only referring to State law, then please explain what context would have existed for States to use such language? State law...mentioning "a citizen of the United States"? Why??? That appellation would only be used for national and international considerations.

"A natural born citizen" could have been used as a requirement for a governorship, but I didn't find it in the 3-5 constitutions that I looked up. I read about it appearing in one state enactment before the Constitution, but only one noted so far.
Governors were commanders of the State Militia but not of all of the State Militias.
Naturalized citizens could have been elected if they were as popular as Arnold S., but otherwise not. Of course without movies and TV, that would have been impossible.

MichaelN said...

It's all bout allegiance, and allegiance is measured by either, or both, place of birth, and/or parents' allegiance, depending what eligibility is being considered.

"native-birth" has never been the sole measure for eligibility for US citizen and it finds no basis in English common law either, English common law specifically excludes native-birth solely as a sufficient measure to make a subject/citizen.

In the case of eligibility as a born "citizen of the United States", it is achieved either by....

native-birth in US, (high allegiance) plus uncertain allegiance of non-citizen alien parents, (weak allegiance),

HA + WA = COTUS

or,

off-shore birth (weak allegiance) plus certain allegiance of US citizen parents, (high allegiance)

WA + HA = COTUS

The US Constitution tells us that there is a higher allegiance achievable than that of "citizens of the United States", where a born "citizen of the United States" may be eligible for the office of POTUS.

Let's see.....

WA + WA = alien-born

HA + WA = born COTUS

WA + HA = born COTUS

HA + HA = born COTUS with highest allegiance, eligible for POTUS






Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.'"

Au contraire. I love that statement of yours.

Unknown said...

Blogger MichaelN said...
@ Adam Kennedy, putting aside any bias, favoritism, political leanings....Given the claims that Obama is a NBC, solely based on native-birth via the Wong Kim Ark case's mention that the US Constitution should be read in light of the English common law and it's history, specifically referring to Calvin's case, can YOU show where in the English common law it was held or opined that native-birth alone, sufficed to make a natural born subject?

All these people keep saying that native-birth is all that is needed to make a "natural born" subject/citizen, but no one seems to be able to show where it was so ruled or held.

I can't find it anywhere, can you?

==================

The following is from Blackstone and quoted by St. George Tucker. "“The children of aliens, born here in England, are generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such. 10. In which the constitution of France differs from ours; for there, by their jus albinatus, if a child be born of foreign parents, it is an alien.”

Did you notice the little “10?” The “10″ is a reference to what St. George Tucker had to say on this passage of Blackstone.

Remember that Tucker’s purpose in publishing this work was to compare the laws of England with the laws of the United States, drawing distinctions where they existed.

St. George Tucker’s footnote is as follows:

“10. L. V. Edi. 1794, c. 110. L. U. S. 1 Cong. c. 3. 7 Cong. c. 28. accordant.”

What does this somewhat cryptic note mean? Well, it contains abbreviated references to three American laws –

L. V. Edi. 1794, c. 110.
L. U. S. 1 Cong. c. 3.
and [L. U. S.] 7 Cong c. 28.
– and then it says “accordant.”

Unknown said...

Cont'd from above:

It turns out that it is possible, more than 200 years after Tucker wrote these cryptic legal references, using the key to his abbreviations, to decipher and track them down. They are as follows:

The Laws of Virginia, as referenced in the 1794 Edition of Pleasants and Pace, ch. 110;
The Law of the United States, passed by the 1st Congress, chapter 3;
and the Law of the United States, passed by the 7th Congress, chapter 28.
And these all turn out to be laws that we have dealt with before. They are:

The 1783 version of the citizenship law for the Commonwealth of Virginia that Thomas Jefferson originally wrote in 1779.
The 1790 United States Naturalization Act.
And the 1802 Naturalization Act.
So what does St. George Tucker say about the laws of both the Commonwealth of Virginia and the United States of America, in his footnote to the principle that the children of aliens were always “natural born subjects”? In comparing our American position with that of the English common law, he says that all of these American laws are “accordant.”

The meaning of “accordant” is “agreeing; conforming; harmonious.”

But did it mean the same thing 200 years ago? From Webster’s 1828 Dictionary:

ACCORD’ANT, a. Corresponding; consonant; agreeable.

And “consonant,” in turn, means:

1. Agreeing; according; congruous; consistent; followed generally by to; sometimes by with; as, this rule is consonant to scripture and reason.

And the definition of related words:

CONSONANTLY, adv. Consistently; in agreement.

CONSONANTNESS, n. Agreeableness; consistency.

Tucker thus says — clearly — that all the important citizenship laws of both Virginia and the entire United States are agreeing, conforming, harmonious, consistent with the principle in English common law whereby the children of aliens were natural-born subjects.

Perhaps even better is the word “corresponding.” In America, a “citizen” was the corresponding term for what was called a “subject” in England.

=================

All of the above has been copied from someone who has a well-known history of doing competent and in-depth research, John Woodman. He also happens to be a conservative who willingly relays the truth despite his political disagreement with our President, giving him even further credibility.

On a personal note, birthers are simply unable to explain why nobody in the Republican party who researched then Senator Barack Obama in 2004, after hearing his DNC speech which was when talk began of him being a possible candidate in 2008, never thought to bring to light his so-called lack of natural born status which is necessary for our President. It's quite simple, this falsity was never promoted until the nonsensical rantings began about his allegedly being born in Kenya rather than in Hawaii. After all, it only took one post on the internet to start the false rumors of him being born in Kenya, it wouldn't take anything more than another lie to suddenly change the meaning of a "natural born citizen" to suit the birthers. Many are willing to say, do or believe anything, no matter how preposterous, in order to discredit our current President.


Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Yours is a straw man argument. I never said that a 'natural born citizen' does not qualify as a 'citizen of the United States' as called for by Article I, Section 2 and 3, so as to be eligible to be a Representative or Senator."

Then readers look about and see that you just asked me for a law, "that called a person with Lincoln’s birth circumstances, i.e., born in the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents, a 'citizen of the United States' and thus made him eligible for Congress under Article I, Section 2." If you want to question Lincoln's eligibility, that's up to you. Don't pretend it was my idea.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"That is an absurd argument that you want to ascribe to me in order to win this debate."

My diabolical trick is to quote you actually making the absurd argument. "The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.'" -- Mario Apuzzo Esq.

Abraham Lincoln was a person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States'. Thus, according to you, the Article II grandfather clause said he could not be president.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Your other huge failure is not being able to prove as you allege that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers had a definition of a 'natural born citizen' other than a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of their birth."

Neither of us, nor anyone else, can prove they had any particular definition for the term. That's why hundreds of years later scholars are writing about whether Ted Cruz is eligible. The weight of legal and historical evidence is solidly on the side any citizen from birth being a natural-born citizen in the sense of Article II, but there's no clear statement from the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers.

Unknown said...

children of americans born outside of US were only citizens in NA 1795 so it is a total load of bs to say George Washington wouldve considered a child of a alien and a citizen born in or out of US a natural born citizen. The common law in the nomenclature of the Framers defined the natives or NBCs and if a child of a alien really could be a NBC then why were Chief Justice Waite and the 8 other SC justices so stupid and careless to leave that tiny detail out of the opinion of the court in Minor? If you became a citizen under the 14th or any other act of Congress then you are a citizen, not a natural born citizen.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Just posted:
Born a Citizen, -but Ineligible to be President

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/02/15/born-a-citizen-but-ineligible-to-be-president/

from pages 6-7 of PDF version:

To be able to accept the obvious truth requires that one rejects the blind subconscious leap of presumption into the fantasy land where the word “natural” modifies the word “born” instead of “citizen”. In “natural-born” fantasy land one can pick from three, -yes three! possible choices.
Select any which one that suits you. Here we have fantasy choice number 1. It’s that “natural” actually means native”... somehow, magically. But in fantasy land, proof is not really required, so no sweat. Run with it if that is what you need to believe. Embrace it and don’t worry about whether or not it might be “factually” incorrect.

And over here we have fantasy choice number 2. It’s like choice number one but with whipped cream on top. The whipped cream is the additional requirement that the native-born citizen be born of American parents. That sounds really, really good. So Patriotic! BORN OF AMERICANS IN AMERICA!
That is like a double-barrel shotgun of American-ness. Why skimp on the American-ness? That doesn’t seem like it’s going too far, -after all, it’s not requiring that one be born of American grandparents.

It seems like a perfect Goldilocks sort of requirement; not to little, not too much. Just right! But also just wrong! That being because of the addition of the non-applicable requirement of native-birth (which is unrelated to anything natural).

And over here we have one that everyone will enjoy, -the one concocted by the respectable member of the bar (Maskell) hired by the august U.S. Senate to get to the bottom of the situation of John McCain’s eligibility. He hit it out of the park with a new and ingenious solution.
Embrace either one! Native-born 14th Amendment citizenship, or uncodified, pre-Constitution, pre-US government natural citizenship which existed originally as inherited State citizenship. That way, everyone gets included, -except those suspicious naturalized citizens.
cont.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues...

Hear ye, hear ye... All citizen-born natural citizens...YOU ARE ELIGIBLE! ...All alien-born foreign-fathered citizens... COME ON DOWN! YOU TOO CAN BE PRESIDENT! And while we’re at it, there’s a darn good chance that even you illegal alien born... whatever you are... citizens? are eligible as well. After all, -you were native-born, right?

That is the great “OPEN SESAME!” magic pass, isn’t it? No one is sure, so why not just give you the benefit of the doubt? Just because your father was Osama bin Laden doesn’t give anyone the right to discriminate against you.
After all, our American soil is magical, and can do what no other soil on Earth can do. It can turn 100% illegal aliens into Americans! Man! No other nation on Earth has soil that can do that! We are so blessed. Why, I look forward to one day seeing bin Laden Jr. running for President. Wouldn’t that be special?

To recap: natural born citizen misconceptions begin with not understanding the adjective relationships. Followed by erroneously presuming that the words are a term of art, -which leads to supporting theories not rooted in natural membership but legal membership, or both, combined or separate.
Four possibilities, and only one is correct. Namely, the one explained by the word “natural” and the underlining of the word “born”.

The others cannot explain those two factors. Only overlapping terms used to eliminate ambiguity and fictional misconceptions can do that. A term of art that’s fictional can’t really explain what natural citizenship is.
It is membership by natural connection to one’s national group via blood inheritance of nationality from member parents.

That is what is known as nationality by jus sanguinis, which means by right of blood.
The other means of citizenship is by jus soli, or right of soil. Of course soil produces no rights, other than legal rights via native-birth designated as a legal basis for a government’s gift of citizenship for the alien-born who have no natural right to membership in the national group, -or... a dictator’s command assignment of nationality giving him power over all souls born within his dominion, -just like the basis of ownership on a feudal estate or slave plantation.

MichaelN said...

Adam Kennedy said.....
"The following is from Blackstone and quoted by St. George Tucker. "“The children of aliens, born here in England, are generally speaking, natural-born subjects, and entitled to all the privileges of such. 10. In which the constitution of France differs from ours; for there, by their jus albinatus, if a child be born of foreign parents, it is an alien.”

Did you notice the little “10?” The “10″ is a reference to what St. George Tucker had to say on this passage of Blackstone.

Remember that Tucker’s purpose in publishing this work was to compare the laws of England with the laws of the United States, drawing distinctions where they existed."

Reply:

That doesn't say that it is native-birth which makes a natural-born; in the case of children born to aliens, native-birth is a prerequisite condition.

It's the PARENTS status which is the deciding factor.

All the privileges of a natural born subject of England, do not include eligibility for office of president of a constitutional republic.

All an English NBS was entitled to, besides property inheritance and a few other perks, was being a lowly subject of a monarch, whereas a US NBC (who must ALREADY be a born US citizen) was entitled to virtually run the whole nation.

Like chalk is to cheese, nowhere near similar.

You also should already be aware that, in England, it was not native-birth which made the children subjects, it was allegiance of a subject father.

The friendly alien father was considered as a subject, and BECAUSE the alien father was a subject, then his native-born children would be subjects.

Calvin's case....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born.......

that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject"

Then we have in the majority opinion of the SCOTUS in WONG KIm Ark case.....

"The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law......"

Now let's see...

English common law....

"that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject"

(subject and citizen precisely analogous)

US common law...

"that issue is no citizenof the US, though he be born upon US soyl, and under US meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a US citizen

You are reading into things, stuff that suits your biased agenda, but it's simply not there like you wish it was, you are dreaming.

You are in fantasy-land.

Besides the prerequisite condition of native-birth, it is the allegiance of the parents which is to be considered when weighing-up to grant eligibility as a born US citizenship, and it is the allegiance of the parents which is to be considered when weighing-up to recognize an ALREADY born US citizen's eligibility for the office of POTUS.

The Framers would hardly use an English common law term which describes the lowly status of a subject to a monarch, to describe one who is ALREADY born US citizen who would be eligible for the highest office of president of a republic.

You are delusional and in denial Adam.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues:

In Britain, they embraced the doctrine of allegiance for life; “once an Englishman, -always an Englishman.” without any innate human or natural right to belong to the people and nation of one’s own free choice instead of inescapably born a slave for life to one’s inherited nationality.

Those crazy Americans believed that people had a right to not only join another nation but to actually reject, abjure, and renounce their own sovereign monarch, -his Royal Majesty! The nerve of those uppity Americans! -thinking they are not obligated to bow to their king!
Their attitude was the fault of those darn ideas about having some unalienable natural rights that were above the Divine Rights of Kings.

One of those rights was the right to belong to their parent’s group by inheritance.
That natural right derives from their blood relationship to the parent members to whom they were born.

National membership based on birth location is unrelated to that natural right which is based solely on descent, blood relationship, natural birthright.
If one is a member of one’s nation due to where one was born, then one is not a natural member of the nation and has no natural right to its citizenship.

Such persons are 14th Amendment citizens allowed American citizenship if born in America, albeit to aliens. They are children of legal immigrants who are fellow members of American society, and subject to the national government's full authority over citizens.
Barack Obama’s father was not such an immigrant, and thus the son born to him was not such a citizen. -Not a natural citizen, not a 14th Amendment citizen, not a statutory citizen through his mother, not a citizen of any kind.

So, that being true, it’s pretty safe to say that he is not eligible to serve as President.

by A.R. Nash

MichaelN said...

Adam Kennedy said/quoted/cut and pasted......

"Tucker thus says — clearly — that all the important citizenship laws of both Virginia and the entire United States are agreeing, conforming, harmonious, consistent with the principle in English common law whereby the children of aliens were natural-born subjects."

Reply:

What has this to do with eligibility for the office of POTUS????

And that "principle" is?

Calvin's case...

" that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was NOT BORN UNDER THE LIGEANCE OF A SUBJECT"

The English embraced friendly aliens as subjects, and BECAUSE these aliens were subjects, then their native-born children would be subjects, and were CALLED "natural born subjects" which was entry level into the rest of the subjects/citizens, i.e. basically the equivalent to a 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States".

That's why Wong got to be a born COTUS and not a NBS, because NBS is a qualification based on a higher allegiance of a person who is ALREADY A BORN US CITIZEN.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You quote me out of context saying: "The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.” After shredding my quote of any context, you say that my statement is absurd.

I do not believe that you quoting me out of context and then saying that my statement is absurd is an honest mistake by you. What is so difficult for you to understand from my quote, existing within the context of my full argument rather than existing out of that context as you place it, that a “citizen of the United States” is not eligible to be President? You know darn well that my position is not that being a “citizen of the United States” today disqualifies anyone from being President, which is what you dishonestly want to turn my statement into. Rather, you know that my position is that being born after the adoption of the Constitution, being a “citizen of the United States,” and satisfying the age and residency requirements, is not sufficient to be eligible to be President.

Being a “citizen of the United States” does not disqualify one from being President, for under the Civil Rights Act of 1866 (provides those born in the U.S. and “not subject to any foreign power” are “citizens of the United States”), Fourteenth Amendment (provides those born in the U.S. and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” are “citizens of the United States”) and current Act of Congress (same as the Fourteenth Amendment), laws which did not exist when the Framers drafted the Constitution, one can be both a “citizen of the United States” under those positive laws and also satisfy the common law definition of a “natural born citizen” (born in the country to parents who were its citizens which birth circumstances allow one to also satisfy the requirements of those positive laws and thus also make one a “citizen of the United States”), which therefore makes one both a “natural born citizen” under that common law and a “citizen of the United States” under those positive laws.

From this we can see that being a “citizen of the United States” does not make one eligible to be President because that person must not only prove that he or she is a “citizen of the United States,” which is not sufficient under Article II, but also prove that he or she satisfies the common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” which is the correct standard for presidential eligibility. In other words, even having met the age and residency requirements, we cannot simply present someone as a “citizen of the United States” without more and validly maintain that he or she is constitutionally eligible to be President. So, being a “citizen of the United States,” while not disqualifying one to be President today, is at the same time not sufficient to be President. We can therefore see from this context that a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, Act of Congress, or treaty (only makes one a “citizen of the United States” after birth), without demonstrating that he or she is also a “natural born citizen” under common law, born after the adoption of the Constitution, is not eligible to be President under Article II. On the other hand, having met the age and residency requirements, a “natural born citizen” is eligible to be President.

In short, while one can be a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, Act of Congress, or treaty, one has to be more than that to be eligible to be President. If that person can show that he or she is also a “natural born citizen” under common law, then he or she is eligible to be President. If such a showing cannot be made, then that “citizen of the United States” is not eligible to be President.

So, Unknown/NotLinda, you always think that you are on to something which you attempt to use to ridicule my position, but then only to be shown by me that you are nothing more than a failed would-be deceiver.

Unknown said...

maybe the new obot can make be more creative with his lies and gibberish

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. Complained:
"You quote me out of context saying: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.' After shredding my quote of any context, you say that my statement is absurd."

Then readers look above and see you wrote, "You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a "citizen of the United States" could no longer be President.' Both of you argue that my [...]"

Mr. Apuzzo, I quoted your own quote of your statement. You had shed the context.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. Complained:
"I do not believe that you quoting me out of context and then saying that my statement is absurd is an honest mistake by you."

Now that you see it was you who shed the context, can I expect the appropriate apology for that remark?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. Complained:
"From this we can see that being a 'citizen of the United States' does not make one eligible to be President because [...]"

Everyone knows that, Mr. Apuzzo. Your absurd statement implies that being a “citizen of the United States” born post-constitution makes one ineligible. More context won't help. It makes a false and ludicrous claim about the grandfather clause.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

After I have demonstrated that you are a deceiver you still insist on being one. Hence, you are not only a deceiver, but a stupid one at that.

It is also evident that you have nothing else to add to support your silly and idiotic theory that all born citizens are "natural born citizens."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

Your argument is a losing one and the only way you can make it win is to change the words of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers and the meaning that they gave to those words when they wrote them in the Constitution. You have given us a prime example of this by taking a “citizen of the United States” and converting him or her into a “natural born citizen” without showing that he or she is in fact a “natural born citizen” as defined by what the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) said was the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution.

You provided this lone quote of me: “'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.'”

You said that my quote is ridiculous because I disqualify a “citizen of the United States” from being President.

I said that so as not to mislead the reader as to what my statement means, you need to read my statement within the full context of the rest of my argument that under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 one must be not only a “citizen of the United States,” but a “natural born citizen” in order to be eligible to be President today, meaning that if one can only show that one is a “citizen of the United States,” then one is not eligible to be President today.

In typical Unknown/NotLinda style, you simply repeat without any explanation that I am the one who did not provide any context to my statement and that my statement continues to be absurd.

I will play your little word game with you and still prove that you are wrong.

Let us assume for sake of argument that I did not provide any context to my statement, which I have shown to be a false claim by you. Maybe you can explain for all of us how, if Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that only a (1) a “natural born citizen,” or (2) “citizen of the United States” as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution, is eligible to be President, how does a “citizen of the United States” continue to be eligible to be President today.

Now, you should answer that a “citizen of the United States” can still prove that he or she is eligible to be President today by demonstrating that he or she is not only a “citizen of the United States,” but also a “natural born citizen.” But with such an answer, you are not insisting that a “citizen of the United States” is still eligible today and thereby demonstrating contradiction to my statement, for now you are saying that he or she is not only a “citizen of the United States,” but really a “natural born citizen.” With such an answer and putting aside the age and residency requirements, are you not admitting that being a “citizen of the United States” is not sufficient to be eligible to be President today? And if you admit that being a “citizen of the United States” is not sufficient today, because one must be a “natural born citizen” and not just a “citizen of the United States,” are you not also admitting that if one is a “citizen of the United States,” one is not eligible to be President today?

Please explain.

Stranger said...

nash writes:

It's a semantics conundrum stemming from the absence of a key word: "any"; as in "any citizen of the United States".

It is all easily understood by putting terms into their proper place in sets. "Citizens of the U.S. (like Navy Seaman) is a parent set.
"Natural born citizen" (like Navy Seal) is a subset.
Eligibility is tied to the subset, not the parent set, so to disqualify disqualified members of the parent set, one has to use the word "only"--an nbc, -or "not every" COTUS is eligible.

What is incorrect is to say that "any" COTUS is eligible or that all COTUS are INeligible.

The needed terms didn't get used, and hence the ambiguity.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

You said that there is an ambiguity and that to avoid it “one has to use the word "only"--an nbc, -or "not every" COTUS is eligible. What is incorrect is to say that "any" COTUS is eligible or that all COTUS are INeligible.”

If you read my statement in the context of my argument, there is no ambiguity. Unknown knows that there is no ambiguity. She is just playing dumb and showing her false outrage. I never denied “citizens of the United States” the right to prove that they are also “natural born citizens,” and therefore, as “natural born citizens,” and not as “citizens of the United States,” they are also eligible to be President.

Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says: “No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President.” That means that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, “only” a “natural born citizen” is eligible. If “only” a “natural born citizen” is eligible, that means that a “citizen of the United States” is not eligible. If “citizens of the United States” want to demonstrate that they are eligible, then they have to prove that they are “natural born citizens,” for being a “citizen of the United States” is not the correct eligibility standard and therefore not relevant. So, “all” “citizens of the United States” are ineligible, unless they can prove they are “natural born citizens.”

This is the easiest and most logical way to read Article II. The Obots and Cruzers like Unknown/NotLinda want to confuse the meaning of a “natural born citizen” and “citizen of the United States” and their application because they do not want Obama and Cruz to be called “citizens of the United States” and be told that that is not sufficient because a “citizen of the United States” is not eligible unless he can show that he is a “natural born citizen.” They dread the thought of someone (imagine if it were the U.S. Supreme Court) granting them that Obama and Cruz are “citizens of the United States,” but then being told that they also have to satisfy the definition of a “natural born citizen” that existed under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they adopted and ratified the Constitution. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Rather, they want people to conflate and confound a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth, either under the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress, with an Article II “natural born citizen” and skate their man through.

So in the meantime, people like Unknown/NotLinda will just keep feigning their outrage for someone who says that a “citizen of the United States” is not eligible to be President.

Stranger said...

nash writes:

...a “citizen of the United States” is not eligible to be President.

The flaw is in the use of the word "a". That implies any uncategorized individual. It should be "any citizen is not...", -which implies "any and every".

That would be false because some citizens are nbc, but "a" implies "any & every" or that there is no citizenship differentiation at all since none is mentioned.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"After I have demonstrated that you are a deceiver you still insist on being one. Hence, you are not only a deceiver, but a stupid one at that."

Mr. Apuzzo, you have probably noticed that I avoid personal insults and direct my critiques at your cases, your claims, your arguments, which are the stated subjects of this blog. Nevertheless, I do have an emotional reaction to your behavior. I occasionally write phrases directing my disgust at you personally, but I edit those out before posting.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It is also evident that you have nothing else to add to support your silly and idiotic theory that all born citizens are 'natural born citizens.'"

I've plenty on that, but this strand turned to you accusing me of dishonesty for how I quoted a particular statement of yours. That was a false accusation, Mr. Apuzzo. I had quoted *your* presentation of the statement of issue. I literally cut and pasted the statement exactly as you had it, Mr. Apuzzo.

Then I showed you the courtesy, that you had not shown me, of assuming your false accusation was an honest mistake. Just say you regret the error and move on. Of course I'm being a bit facetious in implying I wrote it as a courtesy. You would have looked great had you corrected, and I would have had to let it go. Is relying on you to live down to your reputation a deceptive debating trick?

MichaelN said...

Article II "natural born Citizen" is not descriptive of a criteria to be eligible as a "citizen of the United States" at or by birth.

It is descriptive of a criteria for an ALREADY BORN US citizen, to be eligible for the office of POTUS.

i.e. one does not need to be a "natural born Citizen", to be eligible as a born "citizen of the United States". (ref: 14th Amendment)

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You are a deceiver and you take on a holier-than- thou attitude when I call you out on it. You do not argue the substance of anything I say. You just repeat the same old tired comments over and over. And then you try to come off as such a nice person, just giving me a chance to correct myself. You are a political hack and nothing more. Your repetitive comments on this blog speak for themselves.

And by the way, I am still waiting for you and Stranger/Adrien Nash to show me how a person who is a “citizen of the United States” today is eligible to be President. Just to help you read what I wrote, I did not write a person who is a “natural born citizen.” I wrote a person who is a “citizen of the United States.”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

The Framers informed us that if one desires to be President, one has to have the status of either a “natural born citizen,” or a “Citizen of the United States” at the time the Constitution was adopted. Under this statement we can see that being a citizen today is not sufficient to be eligible to be President.

You have put yourself in a conundrum because in your logic, you conflate and confound a person with citizenship statuses. You fail to understand the point that even though as you say “some citizens are nbc,” it is not being a “citizen” that makes them a “natural born citizen,” but rather being a “natural born citizen.”

You have to distinguish a person from citizenship statuses. While a person is only one person, that person can have more than one citizenship status. So, the same person can either be eligible or not eligible to be President, depending on which citizenship status is available given the person’s birth circumstances.
When I say that a “citizen of the United States” is not eligible to be President, I am not talking about a person, but rather about a citizenship status. Surely, if that person is also a “natural born citizen,” then that same person is eligible. But that person is not eligible because he/she is a “citizen of the United States,” but rather only because he/she is a “natural born citizen.”

So, until a citizen proves that he/she is a “natural born citizen,” he/she is only a citizen and not eligible to be President. In other words, we can never say that a “citizen” is eligible to be President because only if that citizen is a “natural born citizen” can that citizen be eligible and in that case we are saying that that person is eligible because he/she is a “natural born citizen,” not because that person is a citizen. From this we can conclude that a citizen is not eligible to be President because only a “natural born citizen” is. And if a citizen is also a “natural born citizen” and therefore eligible to be President, the fact that he/she is eligible does not make a citizen eligible to be President, for he/she is eligible only because he/she is a “natural born citizen” and not because he/she is a citizen.

Unknown said...

I read the same thing in A2, a citizen of the US has not been eligible since adoption and now no one except a natural born citizen is eligible. All NBCs are citizens but not all citizens are NBCs. You obots should crawl out from under barrys desk and tell us who forged his BC and draft card as well as explaining why his social belongs to a dead guy from CT and failed e verify. Barry is already a well known liar and will go down as biggest fraud in US history

Carlyle said...

Mario -

Rather than endless repeating and refuting of OBOT arguments, perhaps you can address the following. It would seem within your self-assigned charter and may become very important with the imminent announcements expected from Arpaio and Zullo.

Start with your favorite definition of NBC, then explain the following:

1. Can someone who is adopted by citizen parents within this country be NBC? Suppose his parentage or place of birth otherwise disqualify him? Suppose his parentage or place of birth were not officially known?

2. Clearly, adoption was not on the minds of the founding fathers. Would it be legally possible for congress or SCOTUS to "define" NBC such as to include these types of adoptions? Retroactively?

3. If one were a legitimate NBC can one ever lose that status? If lost, can it ever be regained?

I think much may hinge on these considerations.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Carlyle,

I of II

You asked:

“Start with your favorite definition of NBC, then explain the following.”

Reply:

The definition of a “natural born citizen” that I have provided is not my favorite definition. It is the only one of which I am aware that the historical and legal record demonstrates and Minor and Wong Kim Ark confirm the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers relied upon when they drafted the Constitution. That definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

You asked:

1. Can someone who is adopted by citizen parents within this country be NBC? Suppose his parentage or place of birth otherwise disqualify him? Suppose his parentage or place of birth were not officially known?

Reply:

A person needs to be born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent like John McCain) to U.S. citizen parents in order to be a “natural born citizen.” I have never seen any exception to this definition for adoptees. Under state statutory law, adoption adjusts the adoptee’s rights and duties vis-a’-vis his/her natural parents (loses them) and his/her new adoptive parents (gains them). It does not nor can it erase who a child’s natural parents are nor the place of that child’s birth. Hence, that someone is adopted neither changes the definition of a “natural born citizen” nor someone’s natural birth circumstances (natural parents and place of birth). Therefore, the answer is “no” to the first two questions if the adoptee was not born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents. If the adoptee was so born, then the fact of adoption does not take away his/her right to be a “natural born citizen.” The burden of proof is on the person wanting to prove that he is a “natural born citizen.” If he or she cannot prove it, then he or she is not a “natural born citizen.” So, the answer to the third question is that the person would not be a “natural born citizen” for lack of proof. The best that that person could be is a “citizen of the United States,” like a foundling.

You asked:

2. Clearly, adoption was not on the minds of the founding fathers. Would it be legally possible for congress or SCOTUS to "define" NBC such as to include these types of adoptions? Retroactively?

Reply:

While adoption in the United States has no historical basis in common law and is strictly a creature of state statutory law, I cannot imagine that the Founders were not aware of adoption from a historical standpoint. But even if they were not, it does not matter because the definition of a “natural born citizen” is what it is, is part of the supreme law of the land, and that is what controls the question of whether someone is a “natural born citizen.” Congress can confirm what that definition is, but it cannot change or amend that definition. The only way that the definition of a “natural born citizen” can be changed or amended is by duly ratified constitutional amendment under Article V. The U.S. Supreme Court is a different story. While the Constitution says that it cannot be changed without such an amendment, the Court can simply say, whether right or wrong, that it is interpreting the Constitution and get around the amendment process.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

You asked:

3. If one were a legitimate NBC can one ever lose that status? If lost, can it ever be regained?

Reply:

In the United States, we have since the Founding adopted the natural right of expatriation which is the right to throw off one’s allegiance and citizenship and adopt through naturalization another. This does not mean that parents can cause a minor to lose his/her citizenship status, unless there is some act of Congress or treaty in place so providing. So, a “natural born citizen” can revoke that birth status if he or she voluntarily, knowingly, and intelligently satisfies all the legal requirements. From a technical standpoint, Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that a would-be President needs to be born as a “natural born citizen.” It does not say that he/she needs to maintain that status for all his/her life. Of course, such a person would have to have that status at the time that he/she has to prove that he/she is “eligible” for the Office of President. So, theoretically, one could be born a “natural born citizen,” renounce that status, and then regain it, if legally possible, in time to prove that he/she is “eligible” to be President. Of course, the fact that one renounced his/her “natural born citizen” status would in any political contest weigh heavily against any such candidate who would aspire to be President and Commander in Chief.

thalightguy said...

I have a question for everyone.

How can a person born in one generation be a Constitutional “natural born Citizen”, if that same person born in another generation under the same birth circumstances would not even be a “citizen of the United States”?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thalightguy,

The definition of a “natural born citizen” is universal for all time. It presents certainty and clarity, with no doubt as to whether it is true that a person is a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen.” It presents no contradiction. The definition does not have its origins in positive or municipal law. Rather, it has its source in natural law and law of nations whose definition of the clause was incorporated into our constitutional national common law and as such became part of the supreme law of the land and subject to change only by duly ratified constitutional amendment.

On the other hand, what can change over time is whether a certain set of birth circumstances make one a member of a society which in a republic like the United States is called a “citizen.” A “citizen” is defined by any means and by any definition a nation may chose. Following the original citizens of a society, it is positive and municipal law that determines who may be “citizens.” But when it comes to a “natural born citizen,” its definition does not change over time like the definition of a “citizen” can change. During all time (universality), the definition of a “natural born citizen” does not change and is not defined by positive or municipal law which is used to define a “citizen,” but not a “natural born citizen.” In other words, we do not rely upon positive or municipal laws to turn a “natural born citizen” on or off (would create lack of universality, certainty, and clarity), like we do for “citizens.”

We have seen an application of these principles in the United States. The definition of a “citizen” has evolved over the course of American history. At common law, only a child born in the country to citizen parents could be a citizen. Hence, at common law, being a citizen was tied to being a “natural born citizen.” But this was too limiting for the new nation which needed many more citizens to develop its vast and rich lands. So, the Framers in the Constitution gave to Congress the power to make more “citizens” through naturalization. Thus, Congress expanded who may be “citizens” through naturalization Acts of Congress, including the Civil Rights Act of 1866. Then Congress even constitutionalized who may be “citizens” through the Fourteenth Amendment. But the definition of a “natural born citizen” has not evolved into anything different from what it was at the time the Framers wrote the clause into the Constitution. That universal definition continues to be a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

So, it is not possible that a person can be one citizenship status in one time period and then that same person have a different citizenship status in a different time period. The same person simply cannot live in two different time periods. Rather, what can change over time is the status of being a “citizen,” i.e., what birth circumstances make one a “citizen.” And that change is accomplished through positive law which provides what those birth circumstances shall be. What does not change over time is what birth circumstances make one a “natural born citizen.” Finally, with a duly ratified constitutional amendment, it can all be changed.

MichaelN said...

thalightguy said...

"I have a question for everyone.

How can a person born in one generation be a Constitutional “natural born Citizen”, if that same person born in another generation under the same birth circumstances would not even be a “citizen of the United States”?"

Reply:

How about you provide examples of when such events might or could have occurred, then maybe your question would make more sense.

A "citizen of the United States" may be by birth or naturalization.

A "natural born Citizen" of the United States, is a born "citizen of the United States" with extra and thus higher or more complete allegiance, over and above the allegiance required to make a born "citizen of the United States".

That extra allegiance comes from one's parents being US citizens.

Those fools who are obamatized, are willing to accept US citizen parents' allegiance as a measure for their childrens' allegiance, when the child is born off-shore, but when it comes to being native-born, the obamitized deny and reject US citizen parents' allegiance as any measure at all.

Why is that?

Why don't you ask.......

Why should a person's parents' allegiance be measured in one instance but not in another, especially when allegiance is the main concern in the latter instance?

MichaelN said...

Even alien parents' weak allegiance is considered, in the case of alien parents of native-born....

So why should the allegiance of US citizen parents not be considered, in the case of their native-born?

MichaelN said...

To ascertain eligibility for POTUS, being a born "citizen of the United States" is an essential, fundamental prerequisite.

Determining eligibility for POTUS, does not require revisiting the gaining of born US citizenship due by native-birth, it requires the measure of allegiances over and above the prerequisite native allegiance.

MichaelN said...

To be eligible for the office of POTUS, being a born "citizen of the United States" is an essential, fundamental prerequisite, it's not the deciding factor.

Determining eligibility for POTUS, does not require revisiting the gaining of born US citizenship due by native-birth, it requires the measure of allegiances over and above the prerequisite native allegiance.

The strength of native-born allegiance is the same measure and equal to all the native-born, but the strength of parents' allegiance is not the same between alien and US citizen parents.

Hence the only born citizens of US who may be eligible for the office of POTUS are the natural ones.

Carlyle said...

Thank you for the lengthy and well-considered answer.

I think one of the keys is what you said about, while eligible, ones past could weigh heavily in the political process. All of the secrecy and extraordinary effort to hide Obama's past tells me that he would have never been elected if the truth had been known. Just like the lies and hidden truths without which Obamacare would have never passed.

As to your first bit of reply, my apologies. A poor choice of words made it sound as if I was critical where I did not intend to be.

Thanks for all your hard work.

Carlyle said...

Results of Research Project

I have just completed a thorough analysis of the most common theories put forward in the blogosphere, and their supporting arguments, as to the proper definition of Natural Born Citizen. Herewith is the ranking of those theories as which has the most defensible rationale - and is therefore probably correct.

1. Native Birth plus Both Parents Citizens

2. Both Parents Citizens

3. Vaginal Birth vs. C-Section

3. Native Birth plus only Father Citizen

4. Native Birth plus only Mother Citizen

5. Father Citizen

6. Mother Citizen

7. Native Birth only

Ray said...

I have been amazed at the degree of confusion (and obfuscation) surrounding the term "natural born citizen".

Who are naturally born citizens? Undeniably, those who are born in country to citizen parents. Such a person's citizenship does not require any operation of law.

Could other persons be naturally born citizens? In every other case there must be some operation of law, such persons are not naturally born citizens.

The citizenship of those born within the country to one or two alien parents, those born outside the country, all require a statute or treaty.

Mr. Apuzzo has thoroughly researched "natural born citizen" and has repeatedly provided numerous historical and legal records as evidence that a "natural born citizen" is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of that child's birth.

At this point anyone who denies this definition or seeks to modify this definition or who repeatedly posts deliberately misleading statements, misstated or deceptively elided quotes, can only be doing so for nefarious purposes.

A "natural born citizen" is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of that child's birth. It's common sense.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Your argument is a losing one"

Yeah, that's what you usually say about the arguments that beat you.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"and the only way you can make it win is to change the words of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers and the meaning that they gave to those words when they wrote them in the Constitution."

So quote the words of the founders and framers and quote me changing them. The fact is, Mr. Apuzzo, when I put you on a position I can quote you taking it. Over and over you've claimed I, and others, have said things that you just made up.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I said that so as not to mislead the reader as to what my statement means, you need to read my statement within the full context of the rest of my argument that under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 one must be not only a 'citizen of the United States,' but a 'natural born citizen' in order to be eligible to be President today,"

Everyone else already knew that today one must be a natural-born citizen to qualify. You were pushing the stupid theory that "citizen of the United States" was a term of art that excluded natural-born citizens. The context shows you asking the laughable question, "how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?"
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/

Mr. Apuzzo, how could an Article II natural-born citizen, *not* also be a citizen of United States at the same time? Can you give us an example of someone who was an Article II natural-born citizen but not a citizen of the United States at that very same time?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Maybe you can explain for all of us how, if Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 says that only a (1) a 'natural born citizen,' or (2) 'citizen of the United States' as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution, is eligible to be President, how does a 'citizen of the United States' continue to be eligible to be President today."

By being born with that citizenship at least 35 years ago, and being 14 years a resident (and with Amendment XXII not having already served two terms). How at this point, could that still be a mystery to you?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"are you not admitting that being a 'citizen of the United States' is not sufficient to be eligible to be President today?"

Admitting it? Everyone knew that all along. What's nuts about your theory is what you actually claimed: “The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.”

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Ray claims: "A "natural born citizen" is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of that child's birth. It's common sense."

By your common sense reckoning, the two segments of that statement can be reversed: "A child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of that child's birth is a "natural born citizen"

Are you really too blind to see what is missing? That statement is only, only, only in reference to those who were born in the country. Where is the EXCLUSION or mention of those not born there?
You can't find it since it does NOT EXIST!

Yes, the given description is accurate, but it is NOT exclusionary. It is not comprehensive and all-encompassing.

If you actually want to know the truth, whatever it might be, you'll need to read the two huge expositions I've spent many days writing regarding just that subject. (-they're not online yet)
VATTEL; & NATURAL vs ARTIFICIAL CITIZENSHIP; plus...
~A DISSERTATION
on the MANNER OF ACQUIRING
THE CHARACTER & PRIVILEGES
OF A CITIZEN OF THE UNITED STATES
BY DAVID RAMSAY; PRINTED 1789
(a moderized and corrected version
with remarks by adrien nash feb. 2014)

They incinerate the blind belief in the "common sense" view of nbc.

It is not defined by common sense but by Natural Law and Natural Law alone. It is not Natural Law melded, blended, amalgamated, fused, grafted, combined with border-based human law. That is a bastardization of Natural Law, a freaky Frankenstein combo of opposites. No where in the history of the world has there ever been such a fusion of jus soli and jus sanguinis. It is as unnatural as a melding of Angels with Devils.

thalightguy said...

Stranger,

The “Exclusion” is shown in the Naturalization Act of 1790 and those that came after, as I have already pointed out to you.

thalightguy said...

Mario,

Thank You for such a detailed answer to my question above. I hope it is well received by those who continue to be ignorant on the issue.

MichaelN,

See Mario’s response above.

I have another question for everyone.

Joseph was born in the U.S. on March 25, 1790, he died of Dysentery on January 28, 1795; Joseph’s parents married on May 1, 1789, they remained as such until death did them part long after Joseph’s death; Joseph’s father was a Frenchman, he arrived in the U.S. on March 5, 1789, he never became a citizen of the U.S.; Joseph’s mother was born in Pennsylvania, she never stepped foot outside of the State, her father survived the infamous winter at Valley Forge.

Was Joseph born a “citizen of the United States”?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thalightguy,

Thank you for such an interesting fact pattern. The answer to your question is that Joseph was not born a “citizen of the United States.”

Persons became citizens of the states through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution. The Constitution was adopted on September 17, 1787 and ratified on June 1, 1788. Under the Constitution, any person who was a citizen of a state at the time of its adoption became a “citizen of the United States” upon its adoption. Congress’s first naturalization act, the Naturalization Act of 1790 did not go into effect until March 26, 1790.

When Joseph was born on March 25, 1790, one day before the Naturalization Act went into effect, a “citizen of the United States” was any person who at that time was a citizen of any one of the states. Joseph’s father was a Frenchman. He came to the United States on March 5, 1789, well after the revolution. He never naturalized in any one state as a citizen of that state. In fact, Joseph’s father died on January 28, 1795 a non-U.S. citizen and therefore an alien. Joseph’s parents married on May 1, 1789. Being born in Pennsylvania after July 4, 1776 to a father who survived the harsh winter at Valley Forge, and never having left the state, Joseph’s mother was a citizen of Pennsylvania and probably too young to be a “natural born citizen” (had to be born on or after July 4, 1776). His Pennsylvania citizen mother lost that citizenship when she married her alien husband.

Joseph was born in Pennsylvania (his mother never left the state). “[A] citizen of Pennsylvania is he, who has resided in the state two years; and, within that time, has paid a state or county tax: or he is between the ages of twenty one and twenty two years, and the son of a citizen.” Supreme Court Justice, James Wilson, signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Accord, David Ramsay; St. George Tucker; James Madison. Since Joseph neither became naturalized in Pennsylvania nor was he the son of a citizen who reached the age of between twenty one and twenty two, he never became a citizen of Pennsylvania. Not being a citizen of Pennsylvania or any other state, on March 25, 1790, Joseph was born an alien and neither a citizen of Pennsylvania nor a “citizen of the United States.” Because Joseph was born to French parents, he was born a Frenchman.

The Naturalization Act of 1790 was passed on March 26, 1790, the day after Joseph was born. The Act did not make Joseph a “citizen of the United States” either. Under the act, he would have had to be an adult and naturalize himself after living 2 years in any state of the United States. Joseph never became an adult. Also, under the act, minors who were born in the United States as aliens like Joseph could become “citizens of the United States” after their birth and at the time their alien parents naturalized and if the minor was dwelling in the United States. Again, Joseph’s parents never naturalized. And even if Joseph could have become a “citizen of the United States” under this act, it would have occurred after his birth.

So, under all possible avenues of citizenship, even though Joseph was born in Pennsylvania on March 25, 1790, Joseph not only was not born a “citizen of the United States,” but he died a non-“citizen of the United States.”

This example more than adequately proves that, notwithstanding Justice Gray's bold and unsubstantiated pronouncements in Wong Kim Ark regarding the English common law, there was no English common law jus soli rule of citizenship that prevailed in the United States after the Constitution was adopted and ratified that would have made Joseph a citizen at birth, let alone a “natural born citizen.”

MichaelN said...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Ray claims: "A "natural born citizen" is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of that child's birth. It's common sense."

By your common sense reckoning, the two segments of that statement can be reversed: "A child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of that child's birth is a "natural born citizen"

Are you really too blind to see what is missing? That statement is only, only, only in reference to those who were born in the country. Where is the EXCLUSION or mention of those not born there?
You can't find it since it does NOT EXIST!"

Reply:

They don't need to be specifically excluded or mentioned, it doesn't need to exist.

They are already born citizens of the US but not by place of birth allegiance, due only by the allegiance of their US citizen parents, but because they lack the complete allegiance (i.e. native-birth in US is missing) which is a measure of allegiance required of a natural born citizen, which is the eligibility criteria for an existing native-born US citizen for office of POTUS.....here....

Ray claims ..... (clarified for Stranger)

Ray claims: "A "natural born citizen" is...."

[to be eligible for the office of POTUS]

a child born in a country ..."

[in context of US, is a native-born citizen of US]

"... to parents who were its citizens at the time of that child's birth.

[in context of Article eligibility for POTUS, a natural and native born, "citizen of the United States.]

"....It's common sense."

Stranger, the native-born "citizens of the United States" who are without US citizen parents are excluded, don't need and specific exclusion or mention.



Unknown said...

hey laughable, ridiculous, lying bot. Only a natural born citizen is eligible now, being a citizen only is not good enough

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo said ....

"....there was no English common law jus soli rule of citizenship...."

Period!

It has always been about the allegiance of the parents.

In the case of alien parents, native-birth was the prerequisite before any consideration could be given, i.e. native-birth was not the deciding factor.

Lord, Sir Edward Coke in his report of Calvin's case (the very case which Chief Justice Horace Gray cited to in his opinion in the Wong Kim Ark case)specifically excluded native-birth as the sole criteria for eligibility as a subject, further stating that if a native-born child was not born under the ligeance of a subject father, then that child could not be a subject at all.

The English common law referred to by Justice Horace Gray, says....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born for if enemies should come into the realm, and possess a town or fort, and have issue there, that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject, nor under the protection of the King."

Justice Gray in Wong Kim Ark cited to this....

"The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law..."

Unlike England, the USA did and does not embrace alien visitors as citizens (they must naturalize to become citizens).

So we have this.....

that issue is no citizen of the US, though he be born upon US soyl, and under US power, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a US citizen

It has never been about jus soli, it has always been about allegiance and in varying degrees, as is demonstrated in the US Constitution where a stronger or more complete allegiance is required of an ALREADY born COTUS to be eligible for the office of POTUS.

Even the native-born COTUS is such due to MORE THAN JUS SOLI..... it is the parents' allegiance which is the final determining factor.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"there was no English common law jus soli rule of citizenship that prevailed in the United States after the Constitution was adopted."

Although accurate, that statement missed the point slightly. English common law was applicable in the absence of any legislative act dealing with any particular topic. But citizenship was not governed within the States by mere common law because the States codified their rules of citizenship in either their Constitutions or statutes.
Some of the States provided jus soli to the native-born children of their immigrants, making them State citizens but that did not make them citizens of the United States unless Congress acceded to such recognition. Which it didn't or else it would be stated in some statute.

But it would make them U.S. Nationals although only in a quasi-official manner since the national government was opposed to dual citizenship, which U.S. citizenship recognition would produce.

" His Pennsylvania citizen mother lost that citizenship when she married her alien husband."

Absent a Pennsylvania statute declaring such citizenship loss, that claim has to be assumed to be inaccurate. But it did become U.S. law in 1907, and was policy even before then since the doctrine of citizenship equality had been forgotten.
It remained lost until its restoration began with Afroyim v Rusk in the 1960s.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

thalightguy said... The “Exclusion” is shown in the Naturalization Act of 1790 and those that came after, as I have already pointed out to you.

reply: You are foolish and delusional. You could not possibly have pointed out an exclusion that does not exist. If the language does not contain an exclusion, then it does not exist.

Neither the Vattellian statements nor the naturalization acts make any mention of children other than the ones they address.
So your claim is fallacious on its face. Vattel addressed those born within a country or society, while the acts addressed though born outside of the country. Neither addressed the opposites as well so how could they have excluded them from the statements when they were not even mentioned? Jeeze, it's like arguing with a four year old.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"We can see that Minor said that at common law a child had to be born in the county to citizen parents in order to be both a 'citizen' and a 'natural born citizen.'"

No, Mr. Apuzzo, there's no "had to be" in what Minor said. You made that up. Minor had it the other way: There is no doubt that children born in the country to parents who are citizens are natural born citizens. If we read the very next paragraph, we see the Minor Court finding it within the power of Congress to consider children born abroad to citizen parents to be natural-born citizens, flat out refuting your "had to be" claim.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"That statement from our U.S. Supreme Court surely shoots down what Binney said about the force of being born in the country under common law."

No, counselor, that's not how it works. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark shoots down what you say. It is a decision of the United States Supreme Court; it has not been overturned; and it incorporates what Binney said. If Wong disagrees with prior opinions, then to the extent that is disagrees on more than dicta, it overturned them.

All the courts that have reached the merits of your theory have rejected it on the basis of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, just as obots had explained. Did you notice, Mr. Apuzzo, how many words they spent justifying that Wong was correctly decided? Do you know why that is?

MichaelN said...

The SCOTUS in BOTH the Minor & WKA cases recognized doubts whether native-born to alien parents was even a citizen at all.

This was AFTER the adoption of the 14th Amendment.

The SCOTUS in Minor gave support to to those doubts, when it said that the doubts were not solved and the SCOTUS in WKA favorably cited to the Minor court's opinion.

The SCOTUS in BOTH cases virtually held that native-birth did not suffice to make a "citizen of the United States".

MichaelN said...

Unknown said .....

"Did you notice, Mr. Apuzzo, how many words they spent justifying that Wong was correctly decided? Do you know why that is?"

The Wong decision was based on the allegiance of Wong's parents, albeit a weak or low degree allegiance, yet relied on by the judiciary to give Wong the OTHER REQUIRED ingredient to make a 14th Amendment born COTUS.

The WKA Opinion of the Court...

"The evident intention, and the necessary effect, of the submission of this case to the decision of the court upon the facts agreed by the parties were to present for determination the single question stated at the beginning of this opinion, namely, whether a child born in the United States, of parent of Chinese descent, who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China, but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States, and are there carrying on business, and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China, becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States.

For the reasons above stated, this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.

Order affirmed."

Now what do you suppose, would the allegiance of US citizen parents achieve, in the case of their native-born?

Since you accept that the Wong case was "correctly decided", you must accept that Wong was held to be a "citizen of the United States" but nowhere, nor at anytime did the SCOTUS recognize Wong as an Article NBC, nor did, or has the SCOTUS ever opined that native-birth alone sufficed to make a "citizen of the United States" OR a NBC.

Basically the SCOTUS opinion in the WKA case tells us that an English "natural born subject" (i.e. one born to alien parents) was the equivalent to an American born "citizen of the United States", and by operation of the same principle, i.e. native-birth, without which there wouldn't even be any consideration at all to begin with, and a degree of parental allegiance.

TWO qualities, one being essential prerequisite to the other, or else no consideration would be given for the parental consideration, which was THE DECIDING FACTOR.

NOWHERE in English common law or US law has it ever been opined or held that native-birth alone sufficed to make a subject/citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of III

I said:

We can see that Minor said that at common law a child had to be born in the county to citizen parents in order to be both a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen.”

You said:

“No, Mr. Apuzzo, there's no ‘had to be’ in what Minor said. You made that up. Minor had it the other way: There is no doubt that children born in the country to parents who are citizens are natural born citizens. If we read the very next paragraph, we see the Minor Court finding it within the power of Congress to consider children born abroad to citizen parents to be natural-born citizens, flat out refuting your "had to be" claim.

Reply:

Maybe it is your lack of understanding of what common law means and how statutes impact upon that common law that you have continued to display such ignorance regarding the common law in your comments on this blog.

Minor explained:

“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

What Minor explained is that at common law, a “natural born citizen” was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Or if as you prefer, it said a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth is a “natural born citizen.” It does not matter what order one uses because it also said that at common law persons who did not satisfy both of these conditions (1. birth in the country and 2. to citizen parents), were “aliens or foreigners.” Hence, Minor excluded all others from being either “citizens” or “natural born citizens” under that common law. In other words, there were no other person who could satisfy any other conditions who could also qualify as either “citizens” or “natural born citizens” under the common law that the Framers relied upon to define a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen.”

That Congress subsequently passed a statute defining citizenship does not contradict my statement regarding what Minor said the common law provided regarding who were “citizens” and “natural born citizens.” That common law still existed before Congress entered the field of naturalizing persons to enjoy all the privileges, immunities, and rights of the “natural born citizens” (which it did temporarily and retroactively for five years through the Naturalization Act of 1790 for children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents) and to be “citizens of the United States” at birth and after birth (which it did in the Naturalization Act of 1795 and all that followed). So, nothing that Congress ever did changed the common law definition of a “natural born citizen” which Minor explained the Framers relied upon when they drafted the Constitution.

I said:

That statement from our U.S. Supreme Court [in Minor regarding what the common law provided] surely shoots down what Binney said about the force of being born in the country under common law.

You said:

“No, counselor, that's not how it works. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark shoots down what you say. It is a decision of the United States Supreme Court; it has not been overturned; and it incorporates what Binney said. If Wong disagrees with prior opinions, then to the extent that is disagrees on more than dicta, it overturned them.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

Reply:

I see that that you imagine yourself not only as a high authority in this field, but also as possessing the correct position on the meaning of a “natural born citizen.” But what you imagine yourself to be and to possess is one thing, and what your really are and possess is another.

Wong Kim Ark does not shoot down what I said and as I have said numerous times it does not need to be overturned, for it defines a “citizen,” not a “natural born citizen” and it did not overturn anything that Minor said. I have maintained that a “natural born citizen,” since the Founding, was defined under constitutional national common law (not English common law) and that that definition continues to prevail today. Wong Kim Ark simply interpreted the Fourteenth Amendment so as to abrogate the common law rule as to who could be a “citizen” at birth by birth in the country. Before the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, a child born in the United States had to satisfy the common law rule that defined a “natural born citizen” in order to be just a “citizen” from the moment of birth. That rule said that the child had to be born in the country to citizen parents. That common law rule was reflected and confirmed in the
Naturalization Act of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. The Civil Rights Act started the abrogation of that common law rule by providing that a child born in the United States and “not subject to a foreign power” could be a “citizen of the United States” at birth. This new rule allowed freed black slaves to be “citizens of the United States,” for they had for many generations lost any allegiance to the foreign nations of their ancestors. But the Civil Rights Act did not provide the status of a “citizen” at birth to children born in the United States to European, Asian, or other alien parents, for those children were born subject to the power of foreign nations which could be readily identified.

Wong Kim Ark, using the Fourteenth Amendment and the English common law jus soli rule (which Binney advocated as applicable to “citizens,” not to “natural born citizens”), further broke the connection for children born in the United States between a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen” and allowed a child born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” to be a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of his or her birth. It held that a child born in the United States to permanent domiciled and resident alien parents was included as a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth. So now, not only children born in the United States to freed blacks could be “citizens of the United States” at birth, but also children born in the United States to qualifying alien parents. In coming to its holding, Wong Kim Ark, following Binney’s explanation of the difference between a “citizen” (a child born in the country to alien parents) and a “natural born citizen” (a child born in the country to citizen parents) distinguished a “citizen of the United States” made by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment from a “natural born citizen” recognized and confirmed by national constitutional common law. It did not alter in any way Minor’s confirmed definition of a “natural born citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

You said:

“All the courts that have reached the merits of your theory have rejected it on the basis of U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, just as obots had explained. Did you notice, Mr. Apuzzo, how many words they spent justifying that Wong was correctly decided? Do you know why that is?”

Reply:

As I have told you numerous times and again above, Wong Kim Ark did not change Minor’s common law definition of a “natural born citizen.” It only removed the doubts as to whether a child born in the United States to alien parents was a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, doubts that had existed under the Fourteenth Amendment and its interpretation in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) and Minor (1875) (virtually the same Court that decided The Slaughterhouse Cases). It only defined a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment’s new standard, “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” In doing so, it totally abandoned the American common law definition of a “citizen” (which required citizen parents) and the Civil Rights Act’s requirement of “not born subject to a foreign power.” Hence, the reliance of those handful of lower courts upon Wong Kim Ark to expand the definition of a “natural born citizen” from what Minor explained it was under American common law is misplaced and erroneous.

You cannot deny that these lower courts hardly said anything in their opinions to support their conclusions that Obama is a “natural born citizen.” You attempt to justify their lack of reasoned and meaningful analysis by telling us that they only had to cite Wong Kim Ark which said it all for them. But that these lower courts hardly had anything to say to justify their position that Obama is a “natural born citizen” is not evidence that Wong Kim Ark said it all for them. Rather, it only shows that they failed to provide any relevant evidence and meaningful historical and legal analysis for their positions, including not demonstrating how and why Wong Kim Ark was dispositive of the question of whether Obama is a “natural born citizen.”

So, Unknown/NotLinda, you keep trying, but you keep failing.

Unknown said...

I am just a layman but maybe these state courts can explain to me how someone like wka, who was not even a citizen of the US at birth being the son of a alien father like barry and cruz, is now a natural born citizen despite the SC of 1898 ruling in a controversial decision in big black letters that he was a CITIZEN OF THE US. I would also like them to show me where a COTUS is eligible in a2 now and then explain to me why 9 SC judges in minor all agreed that a native or NBC is a child born in a country of parents who are its citizens and that this class of citizen was never in doubt. We all know mario and others have lost their cases on orders from the politburo to the spineless hack judges. Patriot ann barnhardt is right, the Republic is dead. We the People do not have much say anymore but we still have millions of guns and trillions of rounds in case Herr Obama trys to put us in camps

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown/NotLinda's position is very simple: WKA determined that the alien-born are not aliens but Americans by the high court's decree, and that all Americans are eligible to be President.

Discussion of the meaning of NBC is not part of such thinking or reasoning. It's all about simply being a citizen, and "as everyone knows" American citizens are eligible to be President.

So STOP complicating the issue with all of that natural born citizen talk.
The Oracles of Mt. Olympus have spoken. Alien-born children are Americans, so stop obstructing their full and free access to the Oval Office. That is so limiting and discriminating.

That sounds about like what all obamunists choose to believe. Why do you want to burst their pretty bubble? It gives them a pain in the brain. So stop attacking them with facts! That's not fair.

PS. now available online (blowing away the fog of confusion): American Citizenship Misconceptions

http://h2ooflife.files.wordpress.com/2014/02/american-citizenship-misconceptions1.pdf

thalightguy said...

Stranger,

The only thing foolish and delusional here is your logic.

Persons born abroad to one or two citizen parents acquire their U.S. citizenship by Naturalization. They are not "natural born citizens". If they were, Congress would not have the Power over the citizenship they acquire at birth.

Congress does not have the power to stop a "natural born Citizen" from being born a citizen of the United States and it is illogical to think that there would ever be a Constitutional Amendment to stop such a thing. However, Congress does have the power to stop a non natural born citizen from acquiring U.S. citizenship at birth and the Constitution can be amended to have the same effect.

Ray said...

Stranger/a.r.nash February 20, 2014 at 5:29 AM said, "Where is the EXCLUSION or mention of those not born there?"

What are you talking about?

My post addressed 1) born in country to citizen parents, 2) born within the country to one or two alien parents, 3) and those born outside the country.

What other persons are there?

You have provided an example of "misstated or deceptively elided quotes".

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Leo wrote: ...explain to me why 9 SC judges in minor all agreed that a native or NBC is a child born in a country of parents who are its citizens.

They agreed to no such thing, and you have no excuse for not grasping that fact by now. They agreed to the reverse. Unlike you, they put the horse in front of the cart.

The agreed that those born in country to citizen parents are... natives or natural born citizens. They did NOT agreed to the reverse.

What is the difference? It is huge and significant. To claim they agreed to what a definition is for a term or concept is the opposite of agreeing to what a term is for people that fit a certain criteria of facts. That agreement does NOT involve pronouncing a definition of anything.
It does not say that ONLY those so described are natives or nbc nor say that only nbc fit the description and circumstance that they iterated, although that is a fact.
Thus, there was no definition given because a term was not the focus of the comment. Rather it was a circumstance that was the focus. Circumstances do not produce definitions without the necessary disambiguative language. (namely the use of: "ONLY")

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Ray asks the wrong question. I asked where exclusionary language was used. None was used in reference to foreign-born American babies. There is no use of the word "ALL" nor the word "ONLY", so such concepts cannot be attached to the words that were used because no such words were used.
The 1790 Act only included mention of foreign-born Americans because there was no better place to address the absence in the Constitution of protection for the natural rights of all American children regardless of birth place.

I'm not going to re-elucidate what I've already extensively covered in my recent expositions. You can read them and be enlightened or retain the illusion that you operate under presently.
Just know that your current dogma offers no explanation whatsoever for what the founders and framers of the first Congress wrote, but I've explained their motives and purpose crystal clearly. The truth is there waiting for you. But you have to reach out to acquire it.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

thalightguy said...Persons born abroad to one or two citizen parents acquire their U.S. citizenship by Naturalization. They are not "natural born citizens". If they were, Congress would not have the Power over the citizenship they acquire at birth.

Everything you've stated is wrong.

1. Congress has no constitutional authority over the process of naturalization, nor immigration, as those are authorities that were State powers. The feds only usurped that power after SCOTUS flushed the Constitution and handed that authority to them in violation of the Constitution as supposedly authorized under the Commerce clause (people, HUMANS!, are products!!??) What CRAP!!!

2. Congress has no naturalization authority over American citizens. Every child of every American is an American by blood inheritance. NOT BY LAW!!!

3. All persons born of citizens are citizens, -naturally. They are natural citizens whose natural national membership supersedes all of the authority of all government entities combined. And I've proven that to be a fact over and over.

All natural citizens, if born of citizens, are natural born citizens. The GPA coordinates of their mother's womb when they exited it is IRRELEVANT!!! Only their parentage matters, and it is everything.
You need to learn about the Principle of Natural Membership. It is the principle that has always been preeminent in America.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

Obots have been using the Minor said-it-in-the-reverse-order argument for many years. Both Unknown and Stranger/Adrien Nash have also repeated it in this thread. I just recently addressed it again and have not gotten a response back from Unknown. Without even acknowledging what I said, Mr. Nash just repeats the same argument made by Unknown and other Obots.

The problem with Stranger/Adrien Nash is that he only reads in his book but in none of any other. His major problem is that his arguments are devoid of any legal analysis, not to mention such asinine positions that he takes such as saying that Congress does not have the constitutional authority to naturalize people. And more than that, he simply repeats himself over and over without addressing the counter-points made by others. Others have addressed his arguments here and demonstrated how his natural law theories are simply the product of his imagination and just do not stand up in the real world. He continues to try to convince us that the world is a wilderness populated by native tribal groups living in a state of nature rather than populated by sophisticated political or civil societies guided by written laws and institutions which they create. He does not come back with refutation of those arguments other than to say that everyone is wrong and that he is the only one who is correct. He just repeats his same story about natural membership selections over and over and invites us all to come to his blog and read his articles so that we can all see his light.

I will add a little more to refuting Mr. Nash. He is in search of exclusion with respect to the “natural born citizen” clause. Here is some exclusion for him.

We have this statement from this prestigious law review made in its 1845 edition as to what the term “natural born citizen” excludes, which provides strong evidence on how American society viewed its meaning during that time period:

“In all cases arising under this clause [defining the judicial power], the character of an individual, as citizen or subject, is determined by a single test, which is his allegiance; if due to a foreign state, it constitutes him a citizen or subject of that state; if due to the United States, it constitutes a citizen of the United States. . . . The expression ‘citizen of the United States’ occurs in the clauses prescribing qualifications for Representatives, for Senators, and for President. In the latter, the term ‘natural born citizen’ is used, and excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states; in the other cases, the word ‘citizen’ is used without the adjective, and excludes persons owing allegiance to foreign states, unless naturalized under our laws. The discussions in the convention furnish no indication that there was any other distinction present in the minds of its members.”

3 The New Englander, Massachusetts and South Carolina 414 (edited by Edward Royall Tyler, William Lathrop Kingsley, George Park Fisher, Timothy Dwight, 1845).

http://books.google.com/books?id=gGNJAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA414&dq=%22excludes+all+persons+owing+allegiance+by+birth+to+foreign+states%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=OjsKU_vYAue0sQTQq4C4DA&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22excludes%20all%20persons%20owing%20allegiance%20by%20birth%20to%20foreign%20states%22&f=false

So as we can see, the key to understanding the meaning of a “natural born Citizen” is allegiance at birth. Let us now apply this concept of allegiance at birth to discover the definition of a “natural born Citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

For those born after the adoption of the Constitution, Article II specifically excludes those who are not natural born citizens, not generally those who are not citizens. So proving that one is a citizen is not sufficient to be eligible to be President. One must prove that one is a “natural born citizen” in order not to be excluded as eligible under the Article.

One becomes a “citizen” of the United States by acquiring allegiance to the United States at birth or after birth by naturalization by virtue of a positive or municipal law such as the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaties. One becomes a “natural born citizen” of the United States by inheriting sole and absolute allegiance to the United States at birth by virtue of being born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

A “citizen” of the United States at birth who is not also a “natural born citizen” of the United States is in the allegiance of the United States, but because of the effect of positive and municipal laws of foreign nations, not only in that of the United States.” In contrast, a “natural born citizen” of the United States, being subject to no positive or municipal law of any foreign nation, is in the allegiance of only the United States.

Anyone who is born in the United States to one or two qualifying alien parents, while being a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress, is born not only in allegiance to the United States, but also in allegiance to the nation of his or her non-U.S. citizen parent.
Anyone who is born out of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents, while being a “citizen of the United States” at birth under a naturalization Act of Congress, is born not only in allegiance to the United States, but also in allegiance to the nation on whose soil he or she is born and also to the nation of any alien parent. Since being a “natural born citizen” excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states, none of these “citizens of the United States” are “natural born citizens.” On the other hand, anyone who is born in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth does not owe any allegiance by birth to any foreign state. That person is not excluded by the clause from being a “natural born citizen” and is therefore a “natural born citizen.”

Of course, I do not expect Stranger/Mr. Nash to address anything that I said other than to tell me that because of natural selection, I am wrong and he is right.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said....

" All persons born of citizens are citizens, -naturally. They are natural citizens whose natural national membership supersedes all of the authority of all government entities combined. And I've proven that to be a fact over and over.

All natural citizens, if born of citizens, are natural born citizens."

Reply:

NONSENSE, GARBAGE!

To be eligible for the office of POTUS, one must be a "natural born Citizen".

A "natural born Citizen" has highest allegiance, higher than a mere born US citizen, which may be such by native-birth to weak parental allegiance (i.e. to alien parents)or off-shore-birth to strong parental allegiance (i.e. to US citizen parents).

Native-birth in US is a measure of allegiance, both in the case of those born to alien parents, and those born to US citizen parents.

In the case of those native-born to alien parents (i.e. with weak allegiance) the qualification is "citizen of the United States".

In the case of those native-born to US citizen parents (i.e. with strong allegiance) the qualification is "natural born Citizen".

Allegiance:

Native birth to weak allegiance parents = 1 point = COTUS

Off-shore birth to strong allegiance parents = 1 point = COTUS

Native birth to strong allegiance parents = 2 points = COTUS + NB

The US does not accept children born off-shore to US citizen parents as USC Article II "natural born Citizens" ----PERIOD!

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

So far, Mario has not refuted anything that I've written because he has not addressed what I have actually written. Instead he just pulls out his talking points one more time and rehashes them while leaving my remarks completely ignored.
He falsely thinks that merely countering them with his own views is a form of dissection of my comments, but if there is no dissection at all, then such a counter is a cop-out that avoids direct confrontation with that which he is unable to refute.

If I say that the sun will rise tomorrow because the Earth is rotating, and then Mario says the sun will rise because the Sun is revolving around the Earth every 24 hours, his statement refutes mine but it does not address it. It merely proclaims an alternative explanation without first demonstrating the falsity of mine.
He can not demonstrate the falsity of things I've shared here and so he avoids attempting to even address them. Rather, he just repeats his own view, which if accepted by the reader as true, then must be embraced as a pseudo-refutation that in fact is no refutation at all.
I share why and how his logic is defective, but one using defective logic is completely unaware that they are doing so because of bias blindness. I can't fix that for him, though Lord knows I've tried.

"...saying that Congress does not have the constitutional authority to naturalize people."

Like I said, no dissection, just refutation. Fact: Congress has no constitutional authority at all regarding immigration and naturalization except to make the State naturalization laws uniform.

All the authority it wields was stolen from the States by the federal government's usurpation led by the Supreme Court.
Did Mario address that point in my previous post? No. Ignored it completely like it wasn't there. That's because his bias refuses to accept reality.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

If Mario doesn't know it, it must not be true: (and yet it is...)

"In Henderson v. Mayor of New York (165KB) , the Court held [6-1] that all immigration laws of the seaboard states were unconstitutional because they usurped the exclusive power vested in Congress to regulate foreign commerce!!!

In response to Henderson, STATES abolished their Immigration Commissions and Port Authorities.

The entire burden of orienting foreigners and turning away the incapacitated fell to private, philanthrophic organizations.

Overwhelmed by the strain that immigration put on their resources, charity workers petitioned Congress to have the federal government assume the duties of regulating the influx...
In the 1880s Congress began to bring immigration under direct federal control for the first time.
It could no longer rely on volunteerism or informal processes to manage this powerful social force."
Kermit L. Hall, PhD "Immigration," The Oxford Companion to the Supreme Court of the United States, 2005
~ ~ ~
Mario talks a great game when it comes to "allegiance", steeped as he is in the King's royal right of human ownership, obedience, and subjugation, but for one born in or settled in the U.S., allegiance does not exist.

There is NO ALLEGIANCE in the United States because where citizenship begins, allegiance ends.
What free men are bound by is DUTY; RESPONSIBILITY for their own defense, and that of their family and society and nation.
Free men are not subservient to a monarch or government in exchange for protection because they protect themselves!
Young men "owe" their society their service as they replace older men who rendered theirs when they were young. Allegiance is not a factor, whether felt or not.

Required obedience to their duty is what justifies government forcing them to perform it.
Those who've never signed their life away to the government do not know the reality of such things, and yet have no grasp of the depth of their ignorance.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario's quoted paragraph from a "prestigious law review made in its 1845 edition" is pure anti-American garbage!
It is 100% Statist delusion, -having no connection to republican democracy.
It begins right off the bat with a gigantic ignorant error: "...the character of an individual, as citizen or subject,"

Understand this, the character of a CITIZEN is not to be associated with that of an owned, subservient subject, anymore than it is to be associated with the character of a slave. The two are from two completely different worlds.

"The discussions in the convention furnish no indication that there was any other distinction present in the minds of its members.”

So what was NOT present (in discussions) is evidence of what WAS present in their minds? Absurd logic.
The founders though were bound by allegiance, -to each other by solemn oath; pledging to each other their lives, fortunes and sacred honor.
They required a similar oath of all Americans following the Declaration of Independence. "With us or against us...decide and swear, -or refuse and leave."

Btw, no oath of office in America requires swearing allegiance to the United States. Instead they require defending and following the Constitution. You swear to it, not to the government or nation.
The bond of all countrymen is to each other and to our Constitution, -not the government that bastardizes it every chance it gets.

MichaelN said...

The "strong check" eligibility criteria essential to be a POTUS, is not based on eligibility for US citizenship, in other words....... only those "citizens of the United States" who (as a prerequisite BEFORE being even considered) are ALREADY native-born, may be eligible for the office of POTUS.

Given the allegiances distinction expressed in the US Constitution between "citizen of the United States" and "natural born Citizen", as recognition and depiction of different degrees and/or graded levels of allegiance, NBC being the higher level, and given the Framers would only have a native-born as a prerequisite qualifier BEFORE giving any consideration for eligibility, then the only other allegiance factor which would have one native-born "citizen of the United States" be considered for eligibility for POTUS, and yet another native-born "citizen of the United States" not be considered, would be parental allegiance.

- Eligibility Allegiance for POTUS. -

Prerequisite, before any consideration for the post:

native-born in US to either alien or citizen parents = "citizen of the United States" = 1 point allegiance

Now consideration for POTUS eligibility begins.

But a "natural born Citizen" is of a higher allegiance i.e. have more than 1 point allegiance.

So who is the "natural born Citizen" ....... who is the citizen of the United States with the higher allegiance?

1. The native-born "citizen of the United States", born under the weak allegiance of alien parents?

OR,

2. The native-born "citizen of the United States" born under the strong allegiance of US citizen parents?

That's what Article II compares, it compares two types of native-born COTUS.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq., in answer Thatlightguy's question, wrote:
"When Joseph was born on March 25, 1790, one day before the Naturalization Act went into effect, a 'citizen of the United States' was any person who at that time was a citizen of any one of the states.
...
Joseph was born in Pennsylvania (his mother never left the state). “[A] citizen of Pennsylvania is he, who has resided in the state two years; and, within that time, has paid a state or county tax: or he is between the ages of twenty one and twenty two years, and the son of a citizen.” Supreme Court Justice, James Wilson,"

That's out of context and obviously not on point for the question here. Odd that Apuzzo tries to pass of this quote which, were it actually talking about our issue, would refute his stated position. Under the criteria Apuzzo now quotes, even had Joseph's father been a citizen at the time of Joseph's birth in Pennsylvania, as was Joseph's mother, Joseph would still almost certainly never have been a citizen, simply for not having paid taxes in his tragically short life.

Fortunately we have extant today a relevant source to answer Thatlightguy's question. For most of Joseph's life, William Rawle was United States Attorney for Pennsylvania. Later, in 1825, Rawle authored, "A View of the Constitution of the United States" in which he specifically addressed national citizenship. Rawle wrote, "every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution".


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"This example more than adequately proves that, notwithstanding Justice Gray's bold and unsubstantiated pronouncements in Wong Kim Ark regarding the English common law, there was no English common law jus soli rule of citizenship that prevailed in the United States after the Constitution was adopted and ratified that would have made Joseph a citizen at birth, let alone a 'natural born citizen.'"

There goes Apuzzo over-ruling the U.S. Supreme Court again.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

William Rawle is not in the same league as Founder, Framer, and U.S. Supreme Court Justice, James Wilson.

Rawle’s is not a statement of a man that was influenced like the major Founders were by natural law and the law of nations in forming the new America.

There is no element of Lockean consent to being a member of society in what he said.

Missing from his statement is the element of parental influence over their children emanating from their duty to rear and educate their children.

He does not ascribe to the idea that children have no capacity to consent during their years of minority, and therefore follow the condition of their parents, and are not truly “free” like their parents until they reach the age of majority, a concept which is the foundation for the Founders’ political philosophy that man had the natural right to expatriate himself from the society in which he was born.

On the other hand, Wilson was steeped in natural law and the law of nations, believed in consent, parental influence over children, that children followed the condition of their parents, age of reason, the state of being “free” obtained at the age of majority, and the natural right to expatriate.

Rawle was not a signatory to the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution and a major contributor to the drafting of the Constitution. Wilson was.

Rawle simply stated a conclusion without any context or support. Wilson did not.

Rawle conflated and confounded being a citizen of a state with being a “natural born citizen.” For Rawle, being a citizen of a state prior to the adoption of the Constitution automatically made one a “natural born citizen” under the Constitution. Wilson did not so err.

Rawle does not have historical and legal sources which support his statement. Wilson does.

In short, Rawle missed the American Revolution and is no authority on the meaning of a “natural born citizen.” Wilson is.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

MichaelN, you need to abandon the allegiance doctrine or show where it's found in the Constitution.

Just because the royal dictators relied on it does not mean that the Americans did.
The only allegiance they embraced was to the revolution and each other. They had no allegiance to other States, and their relationship to the Union was purely self-defensive in nature, since if one was attacked, they all were threatened.
Promulgating a doctrine that is quintessentially un-American requires wandering into a political religion that has no American roots. Its roots are in the Divine Right of Kings. And we overthrew that system.
If you could, you would quote oaths of allegiance to America, to the United States, or to the government, but you can't because they do not exist.

All allegiance is to each other and to the Constitution. Nothing else can be trusted, an we can't even really trust each other because a quarter or more of us are socialists.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Everything Mario wrote is correct about Wilson and Rawle. He did not supply any quotes but I came across the Holy Grail of citizenship origins in the Dissertation of David Ramsay (founder), which I'll share soon.
What he wrote flattens everyone's sacred beliefs (except mine, which are based on the very same truths).

Rawle was a Pennsylvanian. That is equivalent to being a Virginian. Jus soli was an entrenched part of their consciousness, and that's why he wrote with unwavering certainly regarding native-birth equaling natural born citizenship. That was his view of natural membership, but it was not based on nature. Nature is: Like father, like son.

And what did the Supreme Court say in Minor? Did it express his confidence in his belief about natural belonging?
No! It said there are unresolved doubts about some of the native-born (born of foreigners). So the dogmatic authority of Rawle was no authority at all, except in Pennsylvania. But it was true in that "Commonwealth", that "country" as they called it.

But what was the basis of civic participation under the Pennsylvania Constitution of 1776? Only that one had a stake in society. That meant any man who paid taxes.

There was no such term as "subject" or "citizen" even used in their Constitution because all were viewed as equals. All adult male members of society could vote and be elected, even if of foreign origin, because they had a stake in everything that native-born members did. That was true equality.

Article I. That all men are born equally free, and independent; and have certain, natural, inherent, and inalienable rights;
II. That all men have a natural, and unalienable right to worship Almighty God.

It was all about Natural Law and Natural Rights. They viewed the native-born as equal and indistinguishable regardless of parentage. But that was not the view of the future central government of the nation.
It rejected presidential eligibility based solely on native-birth because that didn't prevent loyalty to a foreign power.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Everyone belongs to the society in which they are raised. It is their only world and they are a part of it. But no one belongs to the place where they were born unless that is where they were raised.

Two hundred years ago they were one and the same. Everyone was raised where they were born, so a logic error came naturally, one which conflated the two and failed to recognize the possibility of being raised somewhere else, somewhere foreign, with foreign values and foreign loyalty.

The founders were not unaware of the easy possibility of a British wife giving birth in America and then returning to Britain where she and her loyal-subject husband would raise a son who was loyal to their king.
They knew that such a son could not be recognized as an American merely because of where he exited his mother's womb. The place born and the place raised in such cases would NOT be synonymous. And that hair needed to be split, and it was for the sake of national security by employing the world "natural".

That means by nature, and that means by blood conveyance.
The State where an alien was born might consider him to possess State citizenship. No problem. He would use State citizenship as the basis of possessing American nationality.
But the central government had a Constitution which prevented him from being President because he was not a naturalcitizen of the nation.
A State might view an alien-born son as one of its natural born members but it was only one "country" of thirteen. It didn't matter what it considered.
What mattered is who ruled the full executive and military power of all thirteen countries of the Union.

That person had to be guaranteed to possess no foreign alienage, and that was impossible to guarantee if born of an alien with foreign attachments.
Hence, the term "natural born citizen" meant something different at the national level than it may have at the State level. Two different entities, only one of which determined the real meaning of nbc.

Unknown said...

hey obot, if rawle is right then why isnt natural born citizen in 14th amendment and if all it took to be a NBC is being born in US then why was 14th even needed? Speaking of allegiance, is there even one country in the world that does not recognize that the children are citizens of whatever country the father is from no matter where born, like barry and cruz? The only people in US history who never had to naturalise are children of americans born in US.

Unknown said...

nash, of course 9 SC Justices agreed about the natives or NBCs because there was no dissent and they also added that this class of citizen was never in doubt. Asking Chief Justice Waite or Chief Justices Marshall and John Jay who the natives or NBCs are would be like asking your average drunk what a 6 pack is. All they did was go to the common law of the Framers, law of nations, to make sure they got the quote right. The Framers definition is the only one that matters

Unknown said...

btw, mario, michael and myself know that the the simple term "citizen of the US" is found in NA 1795 and signed by President of the US and President of 1787 Constitutional Convention George Washington. A real natural born citizen never needed a naturalisation act to become a citizen

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Maybe it is your lack of understanding of what common law means and how statutes impact upon that common law that you have continued to display such ignorance regarding the common law in your comments on this blog."

Or maybe it is your lack of understanding that put you on the losing side, every time, in the world outside Obama-denial blogs.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"What Minor explained is that at common law, a 'natural born citizen' was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Or if as you prefer, it said a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth is a 'natural born citizen.' It does not matter what order one uses because it also said that at common law persons who did not satisfy both of these conditions (1. birth in the country and 2. to citizen parents), were 'aliens or foreigners.'"

No, minor contrasted natives or natural-born citizens with aliens or foreigners, which is consistent with "natural-born citizen" meaning citizen from birth.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Hence, Minor excluded all others from being either 'citizens' or 'natural born citizens' under that common law."

Not true. We read in Minor v. Happersett that some authorities include as citizens, and thus not aliens or foreigners, children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their parents. Were what you say true, Minor would have settled the question of what was American law on citizenship at birth. It did not. The Minor Court specifically said that it need not resolve those doubts in the case at hand.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"That Congress subsequently passed a statute defining citizenship does not contradict my statement regarding what Minor said the common law provided regarding who were 'citizens' and 'natural born citizens.'"

What contradicts you, Mr. Apuzzo, is that Minor v. Happersett said that Congress was within its Constitutional power on naturalization in considering children of citizens born out of the limits of the United States as natural-born citizens. That would be contradictory nonsense if, as you tell it, the Minor Court meant to define "natural born citizen", in the sense the term is used in Constitution, as one born in the country to parents who are its citizens. Is it not a contradiction to be both born in the country and born out of the limits of the country?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. had written:
"That statement from our U.S. Supreme Court [in Minor regarding what the common law provided] surely shoots down what Binney said about the force of being born in the country under common law."

I replied:
“No, counselor, that's not how it works. U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark shoots down what you say. It is a decision of the United States Supreme Court; it has not been overturned; and it incorporates what Binney said. If Wong disagrees with prior opinions, then to the extent that is disagrees on more than dicta, it overturned them.

Mario Apuzzo responded:
"I see that that you imagine yourself not only as a high authority in this field, but also as possessing the correct position on the meaning of a 'natural born citizen.' But what you imagine yourself to be and to possess is one thing, and what your really are and possess is another."

No; your argument is simply incompetent. You've tried to dismiss critical points in Wong on the basis that they were insufficiently supported or contradict previous rulings. You are wrong on the law. The U.S Supreme Court can overturn previous U.S. Supreme Court rulings and you cannot.


Mario Apuzzo responded:
"Wong Kim Ark does not shoot down what I said and as I have said numerous times it does not need to be overturned, for it defines a 'citizen,' not a 'natural born citizen' and it did not overturn anything that Minor said. I have maintained that a 'natural born citizen,' since the Founding, was defined under constitutional national common law (not English common law) and that that definition continues to prevail today."

Here's Wong shooting down what you've maintained:

"There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes." "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history." United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 US 654 (1898), quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 478.


Mario Apuzzo responded:
"As I have told you numerous times and again above, Wong Kim Ark did not change Minor’s common law definition of a 'natural born citizen.'"

How could Wong change your American national common law when it so clearly says that there's no such thing? The one clear exception it notes is the adoption of the language of English common law, which is the one thing you specifically insist your American national common law does not do.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You cannot deny that these lower courts hardly said anything in their opinions to support their conclusions that Obama is a 'natural born citizen'."

Let me show you which of us is in denial:

"All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens." -- NJ Office of Administrative Law in Purpura v. Obama, quoting U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, quoting U.S. v. Rhodes.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You attempt to justify their lack of reasoned and meaningful analysis by telling us that they only had to cite Wong Kim Ark which said it all for them. But that these lower courts hardly had anything to say to justify their position that Obama is a 'natural born citizen' is not evidence that Wong Kim Ark said it all for them. Rather, it only shows that they failed to provide any relevant evidence and meaningful historical and legal analysis for their positions, including not demonstrating how and why Wong Kim Ark was dispositive of the question of whether Obama is a 'natural born citizen.'"

Purpura v. Obama is your own case, Mr. Apuzzo. You know full well that the Administrative Court provided that quote from Wong and Rhodes, yet you still write such garbage as above. Sometimes you specifically name ALJ Masin as you denigrate the courts before whom you chose to bring your cases.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

The only one writing repetitive "garbage" (your word) on here is you. And now you also want to silence me regarding what I personally think about a court's decision on the grounds that I "denigrate the courts."

Face it, Unknown, you have lost every point you have ever argued here and will continue to do so.

Your repetitive nonsense here does not change anything.

ajtelles said...

Part 1 of 2

Hi Mario,

Here is a possible Article V topic. Clarify the original intent of the original birthers who wrote the Article II Section 1 Clause 5 three word unit ‘natural born Citizen.’

There are 2 points for clarification: #1 David Ramsay’s 1789 citizenship dissertation, and #2 the 1860 Confederate Constitution definition of ‘natural-born citizen’ as related to the Confederate independence and naturalization date of December 20, 1860.

Point #1 – David Ramsey

From your Scribd post is this quote on page 6 from David Ramsay’s 1789 ‘A Dissertation on the Manner of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen of the United States’:

“The citizenship of no man could be previous to the declaration of independence, and, as a natural right, belongs to none but those who have been born of citizens since the 4th of July, 1776.” [my emphasis]

>> http://www.scribd.com/doc/33807636/A-Dissertation-on-Manner-of-Acquiring-Character-Privileges-of-Citizen-of-U-S-by-David-Ramsay-1789

Ramsay’s implicit point by extrapolation is that in 1787 America a “natural born Citizen” was born with two parents who were already married to each other and who became citizens by naturalization on July 4, 1776 by accepting the declaration of independence, and their child was born on the free soil of the independent ‘Union’ since (AFTER) July 4, 1776.

Also, to continue the implication, the children born BEFORE the adoption of the Federal Constitution on September 17, 1787 were ‘natural born’ and also ‘Citizens’ because they were born with two parents who were already married to each other and who were already in 1787 U.S. citizens by 1776 independence and naturalization.

Point #2 – The Confederate Constitution’s Article II Section 1 Clause 7

Clause 7 in the Confederate Constitution of 1861 helps to clarify the original intent of the original birthers who wrote the Federal Constitution that was ratified 73 years earlier in 1788.

See the entire “Constitution of the Confederate States of America March 11, 1861” at The Avalon Project of Yale Law School.

>> http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp

(7) No person except a natural-born citizen of the Confederate States, or a citizen thereof at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, or a citizen thereof born in the United States prior to the 20th of December, 1860, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained the age of thirty-five years, and been fourteen years a resident within the limits of the Confederate States, as they may exist at the time of his election.

The phrase in the Confederate Constitution that helps clarify the original intent of the original birthers and authors of the U.S. Federal Constitution has a clarifying phrase that mentions the independence and naturalization cut-off date of December 20, 1860, “… or a citizen thereof born in the United States prior to the 20th of December, 1860, shall be eligible …”

If the original birthers of the U.S. Federal Constitution had included a clarifying phrase like “… or a citizen thereof born in the American colonies prior to the 4th of July, 1776, shall be eligible …” to clarify the independence and naturalization cut-off date of July 4, 1776, the original intent of the Article II Section 1 Clause 5 three word unit ‘natural born Citizen’ and the association with ‘… or a Citizen’ would be much clearer and more obvious.

OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

ajtelles said...

Part 2 of 2

The clarity is in the historical fact that the 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 three word unit ‘natural born Citizen’ was understood by the Confederate Constitution authors 73 years later in 1861 to mean ONLY born on U.S. soil with two parents who were married to each other BEFORE the child was born, and BOTH parents were citizens of the United States of America by birth or naturalization BEFORE the child was born on U.S. soil, birth being the common sense prerequisite to residing for 14 years on U.S. soil by age 35.

So, in their own Constitution, the Confederate authors obviously did NOT intend to include a Federal Constitution ‘Union’ citizen as a ‘natural-born citizen’ of one of the Confederate states if they had already been born on U.S. soil before December 20, 1860. The Confederate authors obviously meant that ONLY a child born on the soil of a Confederate state would be considered to be a ‘natural-born citizen’ of the Confederacy and eligible to the presidency of the Confederacy if the ‘Union’ born parents were already married to each other before the child is born, and if they had already accepted the Confederate Constitution independence and naturalization cut-off date of December 20, 1860.

There was no debate about the meaning of ‘natural born Citizen by either the 1787 Federal Constitution original birthers who wrote the original Article II Section 1 Clause 5 three word unit ‘natural born Citizen’ with the original intent of referring ONLY to birth to parents who were BOTH U.S. citizens and married to each other BEFORE the child is born to them on U.S. soil, nor was there debate by the 1861 Confederate Constitution authors because they agreed with the 1787 ‘original birthers’ when the 1861 Confederate Constitution authors wrote the Article II Section 1 Clause 7 three word unit ‘natural-born citizen.’

To the authors of the 1861 Confederate Constitution ‘natural-born citizen’ meant the SAME thing that ‘natural born Citizen’ meant to the 1787 Federal Constitution original birthers and authors—it meant ONLY birth of the child on U.S. soil with two U.S. Citizen married parents who were married to each other BEFORE their child was born, and the positive law requirement of 14 year residence on U.S. soil by age 35.

While we don’t know explicitly why the Confederate Constitution authors included in their constitution the independence and naturalization cut-off date of December 20, 1860, they probably had Vattel’s Law of Nations § 214 and David Ramsay’s 1789 (72 year old in 1861) Dissertation on citizenship in front of them, so the Confederates made the obvious connection and explicitly stated their confederacy naturalization cut-off date was their independence date of December 20, 1860, using as a model the July 4, 1776 war for indepdence by the British America colonies and the concomitant naturalization cut-off date date also on July 4, 1776.

The Confederate Constitution grandfather phrase “… or a citizen thereof born in the United States prior to the 20th of December, 1860, shall be eligible …” with the independence and naturalization cut-off date of December 20, 1860 helps thoughtful students of the U.S. Constitution, that was ratified 73 years earlier in 1788, to understand the 'original intent' of the 'original birthers' who did not insert their own independence and naturalization cut-off date of July 4, 1776 into Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

Maybe something can be accomplished to clarify Article II Section 1 Clause 5 when Article V is implemented and “… the Legislatures … of … States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, ….”

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Leo wrote: "The only people in US history who never had to naturalise are children of americans born in US."

If that is true as you pontificate, then you will gladly show us how exactly they were naturalized. What failure on their part would result in them not being "naturalized"? Pray tell.

PS. Your ignorance carries you like a horse, elevated above everyone else, strong and in synch with your wishes and beliefs. What ignorance? That regarding who John Jay was. I can hardly believe you wrote what you wrote.

He didn't go to anything when he underlined the word born. That had never been done in history. Nothing explains why he did that except what I've discovered and written.
He did not turn to Vattel's writing because it did not contain the words natural born citizen. Why don't you already know that?

He couldn't not "get the quote right" because he did not quote anyone or anything. There was NO natural born citizenship in common law. There was no citizenship period.
"The Framers definition is the only one that matters."
The did NOT have a definition of nbc. The English language defined it, not men, not law, not a foreign philosophy. ENGLISH!
Who defines "native inhabitant, or "indigenous population", or "natural member" or "first born sons"? Men or the definitions of words?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash,

Leo is perfectly correct in what he wrote: "The only people in US history who never had to naturalise are children of americans born in US."

It is undeniable that naturalization can occur not only after birth, but also at birth.

It is also undeniable that naturalization is needed if one is born with alienage, i.e., born as a citizen of any foreign nation either through jus soli (because born on foreign soil) or jus sanguinis (because born to one or two alien parents).

I have demonstrated to you numerous times that by a process of elimination, the only people who did not and do not have to be naturalized under Congress’s Naturalization Act of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, the Civil Rights Act of 1866, and the Fourteenth Amendment were and are children born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Such children are born citizens not by virtue of any of those positive laws, but rather by virtue of natural law/the law of nations which became constitutional national common law and a part of the supreme law of the land. See Emer de Vattel, Section 212, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797) (defined a “natural born citizen” under natural law and the law of nations); Minor v. Happersett (1875) (paraphrased Vattel’s definition of a “natural born citizen”). That is incontrovertible evidence that only a child born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth is a “natural born citizen.”

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

ajtelles interpreted Ramsay thusly:

"...and their child was born on the free soil of the independent ‘Union’ since (AFTER) July 4, 1776."

As I explain in my deep-analysis exposition of Ramsay's Dissertation, (not online yet) his sole criterion for natural citizenship was citizenship conveyance from citizen parents. Only the children of citizens inherited the citizenship claimed by the first generation of Americans through their taking the oath of allegiance to the revolution, to liberty, and to each other.

They were not all present in America in 1776, but in due time returned to the land of their nativity as citizens of their native country (State) and took the oath then.
Where their citizen children were born was irrelevant because their national membership was via inheritance, -nothing else, -no added extraneous factor included, including native-birth.

If after July of 1776,they traveled abroad after becoming citizens of their homeland, (-the country/colony/ State of their birth), a child born to them abroad was an American by Natural Law and a recognized natural born member of the father's country, -as would have been the children of all American ambassadors born abroad before the adoption of the Constitution, -including Thomas Jefferson (Paris) and John Adams (London).
The word "natural" is devoid of any connection to native-birth. Natural is via blood, inheritance, parentage.
Native-born is via location, borders, law. No connection between the two. Two different worlds.

Unknown said...

How can you be born in the allegiance of the US when you are a foreign citizen at birth? Duh! Children of americans born in the US have been not only citizens but natural born citizens according to the common law of the Framers. They are the ones Chief Justice Jay had in mind when suggesting the NBC clause. Go lay your life on the line stranger in defiance of the most powerful man in europe like George Washington did, start your own country and then you will have earned the right to write your own gibberish filled Constitution.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

ajtelles wrote:
If the...Constitution['s authors] had included a clarifying phrase like “… or a citizen thereof born in the American colonies prior to the 4th of July, 1776, shall be eligible …” to clarify... the original intent of Article II Section 1..."

It would be clearer but would also convey something distinctly different, different by adding the non-original factor of "born in the American colonies". No such requirement can be found in the eligibility clause.

"7) No person except a natural-born citizen of the Confederate States, or a citizen thereof at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, OR a citizen thereof born in the United States prior to the 20th of December, 1860, shall be eligible..."

Notice there is no mention of a natural born Confederate citizen being native born so that can't be presumed.
The second group could have been naturalized foreigners, while the third group had to be natives of any of the States who were born before the date of secession.

"The Confederate authors obviously meant that ONLY a child born on the soil of a Confederate state would be considered to be a ‘natural-born citizen’ of the Confederacy..."

You're mind is imagining things supported by nothing. What language supports claiming that native-birth was required? None. You are using your own self-determined definition to explain the meaning of what is actually NOT defined. That is not how arriving at a definition works.

"There was no debate about the meaning of ‘natural born Citizen...
-the child is born to them on U.S. soil..."

Again with the born on U.S. soil backed by nothing but your imagination.

You and others fail to grasp that either native-birth is the basis of natural citizenship or inheritance is the basis. Merging the two is not something that has existed anywhere at anytime. Pick one or the other. They are oil and water. North Pole and South Pole.

Those who fail to comprehend that natural members of a society and nation are not determined by a make-or-break factor regarding the place they left the womb, are forced to deny Natural Law and Natural Membership and assert that those American children entering the world on foreign soil are legally and naturally aliens and disallowable as citizens with an unalienable right of membership in their parents' society and nation.

That is making man's law God and Natural Law inferior to man's law. That isn't how natural reality works.

Slartibartfast said...

I'd been watching you rehash the same tired arguments, figuring that none of you would come up with anything new when ajtelles comes along with this gift to the Monty Obots from the Confederate Constitution:

"No person except a natural-born citizen of the Confederate States, or a citizen thereof at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, or a citizen thereof born in the United States prior to the 20th of December, 1860, shall be eligible to the office of President;"

Since it is unlikely that any of you will notice just how badly this devastates the birther argument, I felt compelled to point it out. Clearly the bolded clause is to allow people who were citizens of Union states on 12/20/1860 and later became Confederate citizens to be eligible for the presidency (everyone else was already covered). Any which people did they allow? Only those BORN in the US! That's right, nothing about the citizenship of the parents, just native birth---exactly the people who make up the primary class of natural born citizens by the Obot definition.

Now I will return to watching as you come up with various implausible, illogical and downright insane reasons as to why I'm wrong about the obvious meaning of these words.

ajtelles said...

Article V...

In a previous comment I started with

"Here is a possible Article V topic.

"Clarify the original intent of the original birthers who wrote the Article II Section 1 Clause 5 three word unit ‘natural born Citizen.’ "

Since Article V is definitely an original article of the original 1787 U.S. Constitution written by the 'original birthers' for their posterity of every generation, maybe it's about time this generation of "WE the People" put Article V to work.

Clarity is the point.

Article V is a way to clarify the original intent of the 'original birthers' about the three word unit 'natural born Citizen.'

Can this generation of 'WE the Posterity' of 'WE the People' 'original birthers' clarify with substance?

How about some point-counterpoint sunstance instead of shallow comments like

"Now I will return to watching ... implausible, illogical ... insane reasons as to why I'm wrong about the obvious meaning of these words."

Senseless debate about who said what and what did they mean, and shallow thinker comments like "You're mind is imagining things supported by nothing" are, well shallow.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Unknown said...

I of II

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"We have this statement from this prestigious law review made in its 1845 edition as to what the term “natural born citizen” excludes, which provides strong evidence on how American society viewed its meaning during that time period:
"In all cases arising under this clause [defining the judicial power], the character of an individual, as citizen or subject, is determined by a single test, which is his allegiance; if due to a foreign state, it constitutes him a citizen or subject of that state; if due to the United States, it constitutes a citizen of the United States."

That admits no possibility of multiple allegiances, and the article is clear as to the state to which one owes allegiance and of which one is a citizen.

"And all free persons, born within the limits of a state, or who, not being native born, have been duly admitted to equality of condition with those who are, are to be members and citizens of that state, unless expressly excluded by its municipal laws." Page 413

"Our inquiries, therefore, conducted through the several departments of natural and international law, and the law and practice under the Constitution, and the municipal law of the states, leads to the conclusion, that the rights and duties which distinguish the status of the citizen, appertain to all free persons born in a state, and so owing allegiance by birth to the state and the United States;--unless indeed we venture on the desperate alternative of calling in question that cardinal doctrine of the natural and the common law, the doctrine of natural allegiance." Page 417

"We conclude, then, that wherever definite personal rights, recognized by the law, depend upon the use of the term citizen,--whether in the law of nations, as received and applied in this country, in treaties, in the Constitution of the United States, in the practice of the Federal Courts, or in the constitutions and bills of rights of the states,--it applies to all persons, who, being born under the jurisdiction of a state or the United States, or having been duly naturalized, owe allegiance and its incidents according to the doctrine of the common law." Page 418

"Women born in this country, though of parents who are aliens, acquire and hold real estate, pursue their remedies in court, and claim and receive in every respect the protection of equal laws, in their own right as members of the state, owing allegiance to it by birth". Page 421

"And in further support of our conclusions, we take pleasure in citing the authority of Chancellor Kent. 'The privilege of voting, and the legal capacity for office, are not essential to the character of citizens, for women are citizens without either.--Citizens, under our constitutions and laws, mean free inhabitants born within the United States, or naturalized under the act of Congress.[...]'" Page 426

Unknown said...

II of II

"A law of Virginia, passed Dec. 23, 1792, entitled 'An Act declaring who shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth,' enacts 'that all free persons born within the limits of this commonwealth--shall be deemed CITIZENS of this commonwealth;' a declaration of more than local authority, since it was apparently intended to be, as it in fact is, merely in affirmation of the common law doctrine of allegiance and of course citizenship by birth" Page 428

"It is the very essence of the condition of a natural born citizen, of one who is a member of the state by birth within and under it, that his rights are not derived from mere will of the state." Page 434

"And the same result follows whenever that free and mutual recognition ceases to define and characterize the relation between the state in its sovereign capacity and any portion of those who naturally, that is, by birth, would be members in it. The moment the governing power in a state disowns, as to any person or class of persons, born under its jurisdiction, its essential obligations, assumes to treat them as strangers to the state, or puts their claims up on any other basis than than that of an absolute, unqualified and original right, growing out their free and natural allegiance, it subverts in respect to them the natural and recognized relation of state and citizen". Page 435


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. cited:
"3 The New Englander, Massachusetts and South Carolina 414 (edited by Edward Royall Tyler, William Lathrop Kingsley, George Park Fisher, Timothy Dwight, 1845)."

There is another statement in the article that you think you failed to understand, Mr. Apuzzo. What did you think this means?:

"The question is purely a legal one ; but under the peculiar circumstances of this controversy, we offer no apology for presenting in the pages of the New Englander a discussion which would otherwise be addressed more appropriately, if to any, exclusively to professional readers." Page 413

Did it strike you as odd that "this prestigious law review" needed peculiar circumstances to discuss a purely legal question without apology?

The New Englander is not a law review. It may be prestigious, being published by Yale, but it's from Yale Divinity School. It was founded in 1819 as, "The Christian Spectator", and renamed as "The New Englander" in 1843 shortly before this article. Those editors are Congregationalist Ministers. Mr. Apuzzo, did you notice the other articles? Did you see the table of contents? Those are not scholarly essays on law. They're sermons.

Mr. Apuzzo, you frequently deride me for relying on authority. The truth is that you are desperate for any authority you can get. In fact, my favorite authorities to cite are your own. This is yet another of your own chosen authorities that outright refutes your position. The only reason it's not all that useful to me as a debunker is that it's a Christian Evangelical magazine, and not, as you claimed, a law review.

MichaelN said...

saying this again, so it might sink in to deniers and they might come out from hiding and dare to answer.

The "strong check" eligibility criteria essential to be a POTUS, is not based on eligibility check for US citizenship, in other words....... only those "citizens of the United States" who are(as a prerequisite BEFORE being even considered) ALREADY native-born, may be eligible for the office of POTUS.

Given the allegiances distinction expressed in the US Constitution between "citizen of the United States" and "natural born Citizen", as recognition and depiction of different degrees and/or graded levels of allegiance, (NBC being the higher level), and given the Framers would only have a native-born as a prerequisite qualifier BEFORE giving any consideration for POTUS eligibility, then the only other allegiance factor which would have one native-born "citizen of the United States" be considered for eligibility for POTUS, and yet another native-born "citizen of the United States" not be considered for eligibility, would be parental allegiance.

- Eligibility Allegiance for POTUS. -

Prerequisite, before any consideration for the post:

native-born in US to either alien or citizen parents = "citizen of the United States" = 1 point allegiance

Now consideration for POTUS eligibility begins, i.e. consideration of those who are ALREADY native-born COTUS.

But according to Article II, a "natural born Citizen" is of a higher allegiance than a "citizen of the United States" i.e. NBCs have more than 1 point allegiance.

So who is the "natural born Citizen"? ....... who is the citizen of the United States with the higher allegiance?

Is it......

1. The native-born "citizen of the United States", born under the weak allegiance of alien parents?

OR,

2. The native-born "citizen of the United States" born under the strong allegiance of US citizen parents?

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"I'd been watching you rehash the same tired arguments, figuring that none of you would come up with anything new ...." [blah, blah, blah]

Reply: You just can't help yourself can you Kev?

See if you can answer this.

POTUS eligibility consideration is of only those who are already native-born "citizens of the United States"..... right?..... a naturalized citizen would not be considered at all..... right?

According to Article II of the USC, a "natural born Citizen" is a native-born "citizen of the United States" with a higher allegiance than other native-born "citizens of the United States".

So who is the "natural born Citizen"? ....... who is the citizen of the United States with the higher allegiance?

Is it......

1. The native-born "citizen of the United States", born under the weak allegiance of alien parents?

OR,

2. The native-born "citizen of the United States" born under the strong allegiance of US citizen parents?

Gonna run away again Kev, hide in the shadows and throw rocks?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

The Constitution at Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 uses “natural born citizen” and “citizen of the United States,” two distinct and separate clauses. In plain language, regarding the citizenship requirement, it informs that for those born before the Constitution was adopted, it was sufficient to be a “citizen of the United States” to be eligible to be President. It is telling that the Framers did not qualify the clause “citizen of the United States” with such language as “naturalized.” Rather, they simply said “citizen of the United States.” The Article also instructs in the same plain language that for those born after the Constitution was adopted, it was no longer sufficient to be a “citizen of the United States” to be eligible to be President. Rather, at that time it was now necessary to be a “natural born citizen.” Here it is also telling that the Framers did not say born citizen. Rather, they said “natural born citizen.” Moreover, when they said “citizen of the United States,” they did not say citizen of any state. Hence, we can readily see that the clauses “natural born citizen” and “citizen of the United States” as used by the Framers are constitutionally separate and distinct and not to be conflated and confounded. We can also see that the Framers referred to national citizenship and not state citizenship in their citizenship eligibility requirement.

In spite of this simplicity and clear separation of the clauses, you try to pawn off someone as qualifying to be President because, first pleading ignorance as to how the Framers defined a “natural born citizen,” then using your own convenient definition of what “naturalized” means, you contend that a “citizen of the United States, if not naturalized, must be a “natural born citizen.” Again relying on that same ignorance, you add that any “citizen of the United States” who is a born citizen must be a “natural born citizen.” Finally, you even attempt to pass of state citizens as “natural born citizens.” But despite all your shallow efforts, you just simply fail to demonstrate that these “citizens of the United States” or state citizens are also “natural born citizens” under the common law definition that the Framers used when they adopted the Constitution.

The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) specifically told us what the definition of a “natural born citizen” was in the eyes of the Framers when they adopted the Constitution. It said that under the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar it was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The U.S. Supreme Court has confirmed this same definition in other cases before and after Minor. The Supreme Court has in all its history never offered or suggested any other definition for the clause. But you refuse to accept this reality, telling us, albeit without any evidence, that there are definitions of a “citizen of the United States” which demonstrate that those citizens are also “natural born citizens.” And then in your last desperate attempt, you put forth U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), a case that did not alter the definition of a “natural born citizen” as confirmed by Minor, and which rather defined a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, which concept did not exist until 1868 when the amendment was passed, as a case that defined a “natural born citizen” as that clause was used in 1787. Moreover, even though it is written in black and white by the Court, you also deny that Wong Kim Ark favorably cited and quoted Minor’s definition of a “natural born citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Finally, how could I not mention your other big snow job, Jack Maskell. While you are not able to find any law upon which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers would have relied that supports your phantom definition that any born citizen is a “natural born citizen,” you pass off Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell as the final authority on what is a “natural born citizen.” Here we have you in all your Maskellian glory: “The weight of legal and historical evidence is solidly on the side any citizen from birth being a natural-born citizen in the sense of Article II, but there's no clear statement from the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers.” You and Maskell fail to demonstrate that the “weight of legal and historical evidence” is as you both contend it is. You fail to show how you weighed such evidence. You do not reveal how you conclude that one piece of evidence is any weightier than some other. But the greatest sin that you and Jack Maskell commit is in how you operate “your” scale of justice. You only weigh the items that you tell us are worthy of being weighed and turn a blind eye to others that also belong to be weighed on that grand scale. In short, we are supposed to accept what you say because you conclude that “the weight of legal and historical evidence” so ordains it. You can fool the unknowing with such language and false technique, but not the knowing.

Hence, Unknown/NotLinda, you have failed to present a winning argument that, rather than simply accept the one and only definition of a “natural born citizen” that we cannot deny exists in the historical and legal record, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, we should define a “natural born citizen” based on whether one is a “citizen of the United States” not “naturalized” or whether one is a “citizen of the United States” at birth or on based on how any state may have defined its state citizens. You fail to realize that by defining a “natural born citizen” in such a fashion, you have done nothing more than conflate and confound a “citizen of the United States” or state citizen for a “natural born citizens,” amend the “natural born citizen” clause without constitutional amendment, and thereby write the “natural born citizen” clause out of the Constitution.

MichaelN said...

"The Congressional Research Service is not a reliable scholarly source.
They are like Wikipedia, a place to start but not authoritative. I have worked with the CRS and they harbor a lot of what historians call "law office history".


http://www.constitution.org/abus/pres_elig.htm

MichaelN said...

From LinkedIn...

Jack Maskell
Legislative Attorney at Library of Congress - Congressional Research Service
Washington D.C. Metro Area Legislative Office"
Experience
Legislative Attorney
Library of Congress - Congressional Research Service
----------------------
Vivian Chu
Legislative Attorney at Congressional Research Service
Washington, District Of Columbia Legal Services

Previous

Democratic National Convention Committee,

National Conference of State Legislatures,

Office of Administrative Courts of Colorado

Education
University of Denver - Sturm College of Law

Experience
Legislative Attorney
Congressional Research Service
September 2008 – Present (5 years 6 months)

I provide non-partisan legal analysis to Members of Congress, staff, and congressional committees in numerous issue areas through confidential memoranda, CRS reports, and in-person briefings.Issue areas that I cover include: Second Amendment and firearms laws; Presidential appointments pursuant to the Appointments Clause, Recess Appointments Clause and under the Vacancies Reform Act; executive orders and independent regulatory agencies; general separation of powers issues; tort reform including Federal Tort Claims Act and medical malpractice; attorneys’ fees and the Equal Access to Justice Act; the Judgment Fund; and the Federal Advisory Committee Act.
--------------------
Ken Thomas
Legislative Attorney at Library of Congress
Washington D.C. Metro Area Law Practice
Current
Library of Congress, Congressional Research Service
Previous
Superior Court of the Distict of Columbia, U.S. department of education"
------------------
"Linda Brown
Technical Support Assistant
On detail to our office, Linda took on a massive task. Working with little supervision, Linda edited 37 large files which had been converted from WordPerfect to SGML, helping make them suitable for Web and Book publishing. The data represents the the entire text of the Senate Document "United States Constitution: Analysis and Interpretation." The results of this work can be seen at http://supreme.justia.com/constitution/less

March 26, 2009, Ken managed Linda at Library of Congress"
----------------------
Alison M. Smith
Legislative Attorney at Library of Congress
Washington D.C. Metro Area
Government Relations
Current
Library of Congress, Congressional Research Service
Previous
Court of Common Pleas, Juvenile Division,
S & K Sales Co, US Navy
Education
University of Dayton School of Law"

Here's a whole lot more...

Edward Liu

Legislative Attorney at Congressional Research Service
----------
Kathleen Ruane
Legislative Attorney at Congressional Research Service
-------------------------
Edward Liu

Legislative Attorney at Congressional Research Service
----------------------
Brian Yeh
Legislative Attorney at Congressional Research Service
-------------------
Larry Eig
Coordinator of Research and Specialist in American Public Law, Congressional Research Service, American Law Division
-------------------------
Meg Williams
Associate General Counsel at Library of Congress
----------------------------
R. Chuck Mason
Legislative Attorney at Library of Congress
----------------------
Carol A. Pettit
Legislative Attorney at Congressional Research Service
------------------------
Richard Thompson II
Legislative Attorney at Congressional Research Service
Washington, District Of Columbia Legislative Office

Previous

Falbo, Solari & Goldberg, PA,
New England Journal on Civil and Criminal Confinement, Honorable Mark. L. Wolf, Chief Judge, United States District Court for the District of Massachsuetts
Education
New England School of Law
---------------------------------
Below is a link which has some email addresses which might be helpful in communicating with Jack Maskell and Vivian Chu

https://www.hsdl.org/?view&did=730436

MichaelN said...

Found this bit of misinformation, authored by Phaedra Trethan...

"Only native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both citizens of the U.S.) may be president of the United States....."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepresidentandcabinet/a/presrequire.htm

Here is a link to a Facebook page of this author....
https://www.facebook.com/phaedra.trethan

where I left a message, as follows....

Hello Phaedra.
I have just read an article which you have apparently authored, here...
http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/thepoliticalsystem/p/freelancebio.htm

I must correct you...

Besides residency and age criteria for eligibility for the office of POTUS ,native-birth is not the only other essential criteria.

An Article II "natural born Citizen" is one who is a native-born "citizen of the United States" and with a higher allegiance than the rest of the native-born COTUS.

The US Supreme Court per Minor v Happersett and Wong Kim Ark cases have opined and held that a natural born citizen is one who is native-born in US to US citizen parents.

The SCOTUS in the Minor case, recognized doubts whether a native-born to alien parents was even a citizen at all, then the Wong case in a 14th Amendment case in question, after consideration of Wong's parent's long term domicile and residency and business contribution to the US, based the courts opinion on two factors, i.e. native-birth and parental allegiance (i.e. "subject to the jurisdiction thereof") where Wong was ruled to be a native-born "citizen of the United States".

Wong was not ruled or held to be a "natural born Citizen".

I suggest you get properly informed before you go spreading misinformation and lies.

Here is a link which will be very informative.....

http://puzo1.blogspot.com/

Hope you see the light.

Regards,

MichaelN

MichaelN said...

Jack Maskell's abomination page 36..

"Presidents
QUALIFICATIONS FOR PRESIDENT AND THE "NATURAL BORN" CITIZENSHIP ELIGIBILITY REQUIREMENT
by Jack Maskell,
Legislative Attorney.
50 pages. November 14, 2011.

The Constitution sets out three eligibility requirements to be President: one must be 35 years of age, a resident "within the United States" for 14 years, and a "natural born Citizen."

There is no Supreme Court case which has ruled specifically on the presidential eligibility requirements (although several cases have addressed the term "natural born" citizen), and this clause has been the subject of several legal and historical treatises over the years, as well as more recent litigation.

The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term "natural born" citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship "by birth" or "at birth," either by being born "in" the United States and under its jurisdiction, even
those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen
- parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship "at birth."


Such term, however, would not include a person who was not a
U.S. citizen by birth or at birth,
and who was thus born an "alien" required to go through the legal process of "naturalization" to become a U.S. citizen.
Order No. R42097."

http://pennyhill.com/jmsfileseller/crr/201112/crr-1211.pdf

MichaelN said...

http://www.concurringopinions.com/archives/2008/03/the_new_origina.html/comment-page-1#comment-182172

Unknown said...

Maskell is a flat out liar like the obamabots. He changed the wording on some SC cases and failed to mention the children of immigrants born in US had naturalised before the childs birth which made them NBCs. I read the actual cases in Capt Barnetts ebook. Anyone can read the 14th which says "citizen of the US" and Article 2 which says a "citizen of the US" was eligible at time of adoption in sept, 1787 and now no one except a NBC is eligible. Most americans are ignorant or indifferent about A2 but maskell willfully lies and misleads. He probably sleeps well at night seeing as though as he has no conscience. Barry the lying fraud must be laughing at everything he gets away with because he knows Congress will do nothing

ajtelles said...

Part 1 of 3

Article V and historical quotes...

The a constitutional solution to confusing language.

MichaelN said...

"The Congressional Research Service is not a reliable scholarly source."

My question is, has Jack Maskell, or anybody at the Congressional Research Service, read explicit comments such as the following from MichaelN's link at Constitution.org?

>> http://www.constitution.org/abus/pres_elig.htm

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


"The subject of whether jus soli or jus sanguinis applies to the United States came up in a debate in the U.S. House of Representatives, May 22, 1789, when James Madison said:

"[...] Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States."

[...]

"Drawing from Max Farand's Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, historian George Bancroft characterized the debate on qualifications for the Presidency in his History of the Formation of the Constitution of the United States (1884) (Volume 1 Page 346):

"One question on the qualifications of the president was among the last to be decided."

"On the twenty-second of August the committee of detail, fixing the requisite age of the president at thirty-five, on their own motion and for the first time required that the president should be a citizen of the United States, and should have been an inhabitant of them for twenty-one years.

"The idea then arose that no number of years could properly prepare a foreigner for the office of president;

"but as men of other lands had spilled their blood in the cause of the United States, and had assisted at every stage of the formation of their institutions, the committee of states who were charged with all unfinished business proposed, on the fourth of September, that 'no person except a natural-born citizen, or a citizen of the United States at the the [sic. time] of the adoption of this constitution, should be eligible to the office of president,' and for the foreign-born proposed a reduction of the requisite years of residence to fourteen."


The words "and for the foreign-born" are associated with the previous words "or a citizen … at the the [sic. time] of the adoption" in the "sense" of the Constitution.

OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

ajtelles said...

Part 2 of 3

"On the seventh of September, the modification, with the restriction as to the age of the president, was unanimously adopted."

"The questions centered on how persons became citizens, and how long they had been citizens, but the subject of parentage was never raised."

"The Naturalization Act of 1790 stated 'children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural-born citizens.',

but

"considered as" does not change the definition of the term or the fact of the physical circumstances of birth,

nor can conferring a privilege by statute change an eligibility requirement in the Constitution."

"They made a mistake, using sloppy language, and corrected it in the next act on the subject.

"It is also irrelevant.

"It is a naturalization act, and a statute cannot change the meaning of a term in the Constitution."

"For that one has to go back to the usage of the term before 1787, and that means usage by Coke and Blackstone, especially Coke, in Calvin's Case."

"That case controls the meaning for the Founders, who regularly referred to those authors when they were unclear on legal terms of art."

"The early Congresses often made constitutional errors."

"Then as now they did not always think everything through."

"For that matter, the Framers made some mistakes in the Constitution, but we are stuck with those mistakes unless or until we amend it."

"That error ['natural born Citizen'] was corrected by repeal with the Naturalization Act of 1795 ['Citizen']."

[...]

"On July 25, 1787, John Jay wrote to George Washington, presiding officer of the Convention:

" 'Permit me to hint whether it would not be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government,

"and to declare expressly that the Command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen.' "

"There is no proof that deliberations took place at the convention on the subject of the letter."

"While the Committee on Detail originally proposed that the President must be merely a citizen as well as a resident for 21 years, the Committee of Eleven changed "citizen" to "natural born citizen" without explanation."

"The Convention accepted the change without further debate."


OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

ajtelles said...

Part 3 of 3

In the same Constitution.org article, William Rawle is adduced to confirm citizenship of the child based on the citizenship of the parents--"when the Constitution was adopted"--September 17, 1787.

"In an 1825 treatise, A View of the Constitution of the United States of America, William Rawle (1759-1836), formerly the U.S. Attorney for Pennsylvania (1791-1799), wrote that

'The citizens of each state constituted the citizens of the United States when the Constitution was adopted.

"... [He] who was subsequently born the citizen of a State, became at the moment of his birth a citizen of the United States.

"Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are citizens or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution,


The words "in the sense of the Constitution" obviously means that the words "whether the parents are citizens or aliens" is a reference "in the sense of the Constitution" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 to being "aliens" before becoming Clause 5 "...or a Citizen" citizens of the United States.


and entitled to all the rights and privileges appertaining to that capacity.

".... Under our Constitution the question is settled by its express language, and when we are informed that ... no person is eligible to the office of President unless he is a natural born citizen, the principle that the place of birth creates the relative quality is established as to us."

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


Yes, "the place of birth," aka the “soil,” is the common sense and infinitely more important prerequisite than the 14 years residence on the same soil of birth.


Yes, in addition to 14 years residence by age 35 POTUS eligibility, maybe place of birth and citizenship status of both parents can be an Article V topic in the near future before another “OCCUPY” the Oval Office putsch is attempted again.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Slartibartfast said...

ajtelles,

You say that clarity is the point, yet birthers do nothing but shy away from clarity.

President James Madison, known as the "Father of the Constitution" said this:

It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other.

This is a clear statement that, first and foremost, the US is a jus soli nation from a man who was arguably in the best position to understand the Founders' intent. Rather than embrace clarity, Mr. Nash has argued that President Madison was merely referring to Virginia law---as if one of the Founders either didn't understand the difference between the United States and the State of Virginia or was too dishonest to care. Someone is being dishonest or idiotic here, but it's not President Madison...

Or how about this passage quoted in Wong Kim Ark:

"The right of citizenship never descends in the legal sense, either by the common law, or under the common naturalization acts. It is incident to birth in the country, or it is given personally by statute. The child of an alien, if born in the country, is as much a citizen as the natural-born child of a citizen, and by operation of the same principle.

First it says that citizenship is never passed from parent to child by the common law or under the common naturalization acts, but rather comes from native birth, as Madison said, or by statute (which could not, by the Chinese Exclusion Act, apply to Mr. Wong). So we find that soil is the primary factor (it is sufficient to guarantee citizenship) and blood is, at best, a secondary factor. Then it goes on to not only equate the citizenship of the native born with those that even birthers agree are natural born citizens, but it says that they are citizens for the same reason---a principle which, in light of the previous sentence as well as President Madison's remark, could only be that of jus soli. That's pretty clear.

Mario, on the other hand, rejects these clear words from a SCOTUS ruling on birthright citizenship in favor of misrepresenting dicta from an earlier voting rights case which specifically declined to answer the question at hand. He compounds this absurdity by arguing that Mr. Wong is part of a class of "citizens of the United States" who were naturalized at birth. This despite the fact that Mr. Wong was prohibited from being naturalized at birth or any other time by law and the arguments before the court make it clear that, should they find in favor or Mr. Wong, he would be eligible for the presidency. Even Mario's special class of "citizen of the United States" is clear as mud. Natural born citizens, it seems, are not included in this class, although they are entitled to rights that are reserved to citizens of the United States such as running for Congress.

We could even look at Calvin's case which says that the allegiance of an alien traveling in the country, although temporary and local, is still enough to produce a natural born child. To most people, this would be clear, but to MichaelN, this is an opportunity to try to muddy the waters by claiming that aliens in the US can't produce natural born issue because they don't have have the necessary allegiance without ever explaining why a level of allegiance that is sufficient in England doesn't make the grade in the US. Despite the fact that, if this were the case, then the references to Calvin's case in Wong would be completely irrelevant. MichaelN has made this argument literally hundreds, if not thousands, of times even though it has been repeatedly and thoroughly debunked. Not exactly an uncompromising commitment to clarity.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

Finally, there's your new example of the birthers sucker punching themselves. It is crystal clear that, to be eligible for the presidency of the Confederacy, one merely had to be born in the North previous to the civil war and later become a citizen of a southern state. It doesn't even exclude the children of diplomats or invaders. This stands in contrast to the requirement for Southerners to be natural born citizens. By the birther definition this would mean a more stringent standard for their own native sons than carpetbaggers (or their analogue had the south won). Not to mention the fact that this seems to strongly imply that the Framers of the Confederate Constitution saw native birth as sufficient to ensure citizenship---without the 14th Amendment. This makes the birther position about as clear as a completely opaque thing.

The only way that a birther could achieve clarity would be if they realized how completely wrong they've been---something I seriously doubt will ever happen.

The other thing you asked for was point-counterpoint. Unfortunately, birthers are unwilling or unable to honestly address criticism of their own points nor do they make criticisms that are not somehow fallacious, disingenuous or ignorant. Since you would probably like some examples, let's look at MichaelN's latest gem:

"The Congressional Research Service is not a reliable scholarly source.
They are like Wikipedia, a place to start but not authoritative. I have worked with the CRS and they harbor a lot of what historians call "law office history".


Now, I could just say that I know someone who was formerly a member of the CRS and is an outstanding legal scholar and leave it at that since my appeal to authority is just as legitimate as the author's, but I actually followed the link that MichaelN provided---to something that I assume he is asserting is a reliable source. I can only conclude that either MichaelN found this quote via some sort of birther keyword search and cherry picked it without reading the context or he is disingenuous enough to quote a small bit that appears to support Mario's jihad against Jack Maskell amongst a page full of arguments that rip his precious theories to shreds. The quote is #8 of a list of 9 summary points for the article, pretty much all of which the birthers here would object to. For instance, there's #1:

A "natural-born citizen" is one who:
Is "natural-born", that is, born on the soil of the country; but is "subject to the jurisdiction" of this country, which means
Does not have a parent who is a diplomat of a foreign country;
Does not have a parent who is a foreign invader, that is, someone who has entered without consent of authorities;
Does not have a parent who is an unassimilated indigene ("Indian not taxed", but there no longer are any).


or #2:

Only the location of birth on U.S. soil makes one "natural born", but not necessarily a citizen. The present exceptions would be if a parent is a foreign diplomat representing a foreign nation (it is possible to be a U.S. citizen serving as ambassador from a foreign nation) or a foreign invader (not just someone who overstays a visa). Originally when the 14th amendment was adopted it also excluded Native Americans who were not assimilated, but regarded as "domestic nations" within the territory of the U.S. but not part of U.S. society. They are all considered assimilated and part of society now.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

maybe #5:

No Supreme Court opinion has "defined" natural born citizenship for purposes of presidential eligibility. The cases cited were either dictum or concerned ordinary citizenship sufficient to vote or hold office other than that of president.

or #6:

The evidence we have of the original meaning of "natural born" citizen (although they used the term "subject") come from the commentaries of William Blackstone and Edward Coke. Vattel is not a correct source on this point, because he was a Swiss writing about the rule used on the European Continent, jus sanguinis, not the different rule used in Britain and its colonies, jus soli.


Of course all of these points (and more) are elaborated much more fully in the body of the article, which is written by a birther of the Phil Berg camp (location, location, location)

Do you really think this is a reliable source, Michael? If so, I guess you aren't one.

Or how about Mario talking about the "definition" in Minor? I've already mentioned that this is merely dicta in a case about voting rights, but Mario has also ignored the many people who have repeatedly pointed out that the SCOTUS only gave a sufficient condition while expressing doubts about a necessary condition (which he casts as being for a different form of citizenship). Doubts, I might add, that they specifically declined to address. Mario compounds this nonsense by claiming that Minor was cited favorably by Wong Kim Ark, disingenuously ignoring that part of what they were citing was the doubts which the Wong decision settled.

I could go on regarding other ways birthers beg the question by assuming that their argument is true, but it should be becoming clear to you that unless you're just talking about exchanging points and counterpoints of cargo cult law with your fellow birthers, you don't really care for the discussion.

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN said:

"According to Article II of the USC, a "natural born Citizen" is a native-born "citizen of the United States" with a higher allegiance than other native-born "citizens of the United States"."

I guess that would be your fantasy version of Article II since the real one says nothing of the sort since the only mention of "natural born citizen" is:

"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President;"

Once again we see what a disingenuous twit you are...

ajtelles said...

So much confusion...

Slartibartfast said... so much that is not persuasive and consequently not convincing.

The 'cargo cult law' comment is best applied to those who reject the original birthers' common sense three word unit 'natural born Citizen' as being ONLY a reference to birth on U.S. soil with two married parents who were BOTH U.S. Citizens BEFORE their child is born on the same U.S. soil that must be the place of residence for 14 years by the age of 35 to be "... eligible to the Office of the President."

If the Confederate authors of the 1861 Confederate Constitution did NOT agree with the original birthers and authors of the 1787 U.S. Constitution on the original intent meaning of 'natural born Citizen,' then what did the 1861 Confederate Constitution authors mean by 'natural-born citizen,' and what was THEIR 'original intent?'

If it was not the same it was different, right?

So, what is the 'cargo cult of law' understanding of the natural law 'place', aka soil, and natural law 'parents', aka blood, (for a common sense reason, I'm deliberately using 'normal words' and not the Latin), and associated with the natural law 'parents' is the positive law 'citizen'.

It is not sensible that the Confederate Constitution authors meant that 'place' could include Confederate 'soil' AND U.S. 'soil' in the Union states, or English 'soil' in Canada.

It also is NOT sensible that the Confederate Constitution authors meant that 'parents' meant Confederate mother AND Union father or British father.

It also is NOT sensible that the Confederate Constitution authors meant the 'citizen' in 'natural-born citizen' meant that the Confederate mother could be naturalized by the December 20, 1860 independence and naturalization cut-off date AND that the future father, days or years later, could be foreign born, aka NOT born on Confederate states' 'soil,' before or after December 10, 1860, and their child would STILL be a 'natural-born citizen' and loyal ONLY to the Confederate political and social causes for separation.

See, the 'cargo cult of law' of those who do not start with the 'original intent' of the 'original birthers' is NOT persuasive and consequently NOT convincing.

But, of course, your argument is not with me or Michael or Mario, it is with the 'original birthers' and the 'original authors' of the Confederate Constitution.

So, back at you with your own words:

"I could go on regarding other ways [anti-original intent] birthers beg the question by assuming that their argument is true,

"but it should be becoming clear to you that unless you're just talking about exchanging points and counterpoints of cargo cult law with your fellow [anti-original intent] birthers, you don't really care for the discussion."


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

ajtelles said...

PS...

Slartibartfast, your anti-original birther' and anti-original intent 'cargo cult of law' argument is not with me, Michael or Mario, and your argument is not specifically with the 'original authors' of the 1861 Confederate Constitution, but your 'anti-original intent' argument is with the 'original birthers' that the Confederate Constitution authors agreed with as to the 'original intent' meaning of 'natural born Citizen' in the 1787 Federal U.S. Constitution.

The "original intent' of the 'original birthers' is an excellent place for 'anti-original intent' birthers to start to clarify their 'cargo cult of law' misunderstanding of the three word unit 'natural born Citizen.'

- - - - - - - - - -

PS. As to 'point-counterpoint', it definitely promotes coherence when only one topic is defined and defended.

See how much fun point-counterpoint can be when ridicule is not used and only one topic is dealt with?

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

MichaelN said:

"According to Article II of the USC, a "natural born Citizen" is a native-born "citizen of the United States" with a higher allegiance than other native-born "citizens of the United States"."

Slartybartfast responded.....

"I guess that would be your fantasy version of Article II since the real one says nothing of the sort since the only mention of "natural born citizen" is:

"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President;"

Reply:
Kev, I have already proven my point, i.e. allegiance was the paramount consideration on the part of the Framers.

You are merely in denial of the truth of the matter.

1. Nowhere in the English common law was it ever held or opined that native-birth (jus soli) alone sufficed to make a subject born, native-birth was a prerequisite quality to even be eligible for consideration, then it was all about parental allegiance, which was the deciding factor.

2. Article II of the USC differentiates between a "citizen of the United States" and a "natural born Citizen" (obviously also a "citizen of the United States" but with some measureable degree of added quality)

3. Because of this differentiation, and the eligibility for the higher office for the "natural born Citizen" with exclusion of the COTUS without NB quality from this higher office, it is clear that the COTUS who has the additional quality of being NB, has a higher, more complete, stronger allegiance than the COTUS who does not have the additional quality of NB.

Ergo: levels or degrees of allegiance to the US were required to be measured to determine which COTUS would be the NBCOTUS.

No fantasy here Kev, it's all there in black and white, as I have repeatedly shown you with verbatim excerpts, unlike your imaginary, la-la-land non-existent Wong Kim Ark ruling of "natural born citizen".

It is clear also from a reading of Article II of the USC, that only a COTUS who was native-born, as opposed to a naturalized COTUS, could be eligible as a NBCOTUS.

But a COTUS who is native-born is included in the definition and description found in the 14th Amendment which says that a person who is born in the US and subject to the jurisdiction i.e. born to parents with allegiance (which by the way is jus soli AND jus sanguinis)is a "citizen of the United States", an entity which, according to Article II, is without sufficient allegiance to qualify as a NBCOTUS.

Ergo: a person who is a born a "citizen of the United States" is such due to jus soli AND jus sanguinis, thus there is a degree of allegiance on the part of the parents.

Ergo: the degree of parental allegiance required to qualify a native-born as a COTUS is minimal.
i.e. "subject to the jurisdiction thereof"

MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 2
The degree of parental allegiance required to qualify a native-born who is already a COTUS, as a NBCOTUS, must therefore be more than the minimal "subject to the jurisdiction thereof".

It is a proven fact that both the English common law and the American law held parental allegiance as paramount when considering and determining eligibility for subject/citizen status.

So the valid question still remains unanswered by you and your fellow deniers Kev.

Given that the office of POTUS can only be held by a native-born COTUS, and only by those native-born COTUS who have a higher allegiance than some other native-born COTUS, then what is the nature and measure of allegiance which differentiates a native-born COTUS who is eligible for the office of POTUS as a "natural born Citizen", from a native-born COTUS who is not?

You dare not give an honest answer ay Kev, just like you dare not when asked what "common law" was it that the Minor Court (at a time after adoption of the 14th Amendment) was referring to when the court said and gave merit to doubts as to whether a native-born to alien parents, was a citizen at all, the SCOTUS saying that those doubts were not yet solved.

What common law was that Kev?

MichaelN said...

English eligibility for the status of natural born subject is not the same as American eligibility for one who is already a citizen, for the the office of president of a republic.

Ergo: The English "natural born Citizen" is analogous with a native-born 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States" and by operation of the same principle.

Both are basic entry level of the native-born into the national community, neither are qualifications for highest office.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

As a result of the success of the American Revolution, the English colonies became free and independent states which chose to become republics. Choosing to become republics and not monarchies, the states renounced their use of the term “subject,” which was suited for monarchies, and replaced it with “citizen,” which was fitting for republics. Through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution, former English subjects and aliens became through a naturalization by condition “citizens” of the states in which they resided. Citizens of free and independent states formed after July 4, 1776 became “citizens of the United States” at the time the Constitution was ratified, retroactive to its adoption. With no Act of Congress or any other national law touching upon national citizenship existing at the time the Constitution was ratified, these state citizens were the only possible “citizens of the United States” at the time the Constitution was adopted.

Clearly, how Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 sets “natural born citizens” apart from “Citizens of the United States,” none of these “citizens of the United States” were nor could they be “natural born citizens.” Yet you speak about some “citizen of the United States” who is supposed to be also a “natural born citizen” at the time that the Constitution was adopted and ratified. I have asked you, Unknown/NotLinda, and Stranger/Adrien Nash for a source in which this mysterious citizen may be located. None of you have yet to provide me with that source. Would you care to satisfy my request? And if by some chance I have missed that source, be sure to not only identify the source, but to also tell me how that source defines that phantom “citizen of the United States.”

Furthermore, your analysis of the meaning of a “natural born citizen” is all mixed up and confused. Allow me to make it real easy for you to comprehend.

A “natural born citizen” is defined

UNDER

American common law (a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth was not only a "citizen" like his or her parents, but also a "natural born citizen" and all the rest of the people were aliens or foreigners),

NOT UNDER

English common law (a “natural-born subject” is a child born in the King’s dominion and under his obedience and allegiance, regardless of whether the child’s parents, not being foreign diplomats or military invaders, were aliens or subjects; not applicable because it treated friendly aliens physically present in the King’s dominion as “subjects”; in the United States, we never treated an alien, no matter what kind, as a citizen), or

the Fourteenth Amendment (did not amend Article II’s “natural born citizen” clause and only defines a “citizen of the United States” and of the state), or

a Congressional Act (only defines through Congress’s naturalization power a “citizen of the United States”), or

any treaty (only provides the status of “citizen of the United States”), or

any law that defines a state citizen (a state citizen is not necessarily a “citizen of the United States,” let alone a “natural born citizen”).

So, Slartibartfast, I do hope to hear from you or any other Obot on my open question regarding that mysterious “citizen of the United States” and my simple explanation as to what a “natural born citizen” is and is not.

MichaelN said...

For a native-born in US to be recognized as a COTUS, there is a degree of allegiance required as well as the prerequisite native-birth.

That allegiance is parental.

For a native-born COTUS to be eligible for the office of POTUS, their is a further degree of allegiance required which is extra to the degree of allegiance required to make COTUS.

A COTUS is not eligible for the office of POTUS unless the COTUS is a NBCOTUS.

So, what is that extra degree of allegiance?

It can't be born-again as native to US.

So it must be a stronger parental allegiance than that which gets one past the post to be a basic native-born COTUS.

What would that be?....... Kev?.... Unknown/Linda?

Oh, and don't forget Kev, you still haven't come up with anything yet to answer one of my prior questions....

i.e. what common law was it the Minor court referred to where native-birth in US to alien parents was doubted as being sufficient to make a citizen at all and the SCOTUS held that the doubt was still yet to be solved?

As you know this SCOTUS majority opinion was AFTER adoption of the 14th Amendment.

MichaelN said...

Another question for Slartybartfast (and/or any other deniers of truth), who ran away to hide in the shadows, hoping it would go away.

Kev, why would it be reasonable to weigh parental allegiance (i.e. "subject to the jurisdiction thereof", as was the case for Wong Kim Ark) to determine who may be a native-born COTUS, but not weigh parental allegiance to determine if a native-born COTUS might be eligible for the office of POTUS as a "natural born Citizen" of the United States?

Do you have something against US citizen who are parents of native-born children?

ajtelles said...

What is a 'cargo cult'...

Hi Mario,

It's almost 7:30 on Friday night here in El Paso, Texas, so here is something light and less filling in place of point-counterpoint substance from the 'anti-original intent birthers in the Democrat and Republican political parties, D-bots and R-bots.

I already knew what the 'cargo cult' was a reference to in the 'cargo cult law' reference by Slartibartfast, and in my response to his 'cargo cult law' negative insinuation against all 'original intent birthers,' starting with 1787 'WE the People' original birthers and including common sense 'WE the Posterity' 'original intent birthers in 2014, I didn't define 'cargo cult' for your readers who may not know, so here it is, from Wikipedia.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science

"Feynman's speech

" 'The speech is reproduced in the book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman! and on many websites. Feynman based the phrase on a concept in anthropology, the cargo cult, which describes how some pre-scientific cultures interpreted technologically advanced visitors as religious or supernatural figures who brought boons of cargo.

" 'Later, in an effort to call for a second visit the natives would develop and engage in complex religious rituals, mirroring the previously observed behavior of the visitors manipulating their machines but without understanding the true nature of those tasks.

" 'Just as cargo cultists create mock airports that fail to produce airplanes, cargo cult scientists conduct flawed research that superficially resembles the scientific method, but which fails to produce scientifically useful results.

" 'In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people.

" 'During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now.

" 'So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas--he's the controller--and they wait for the airplanes to land.

" 'They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land.

" 'So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.' "

"Feynman cautioned that to avoid becoming cargo cult scientists, researchers must avoid fooling themselves, be willing to question and doubt their own theories and their own results, and investigate possible flaws in a theory or an experiment.

"He recommended that researchers adopt an unusually high level of honesty which is rarely encountered in everyday life, and gives examples from advertising, politics, and behavioral psychology to illustrate the everyday dishonesty which should be unacceptable in science.

OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

ajtelles said...

What is a 'cargo cult'...

Part 2 of 2

"Feynman cautions,

" 'We've learned from experience that the truth will come out.

" 'Other experimenters will repeat your experiment and find out whether you were wrong or right.

" 'Nature's phenomena will agree or they'll disagree with your theory.

" 'And, although you may gain some temporary fame and excitement, you will not gain a good reputation as a scientist if you haven't tried to be very careful in this kind of work.

" 'And it's this type of integrity, this kind of care not to fool yourself, that is missing to a large extent in much of the research in Cargo Cult Science.' "


"An example of cargo cult science is an experiment that uses another researcher's results in lieu of an experimental control.

"Since the other researcher's conditions might differ from those of the present experiment in unknown ways, differences in the outcome might have no relation to the independent variable under consideration.

"Other examples, given by Feynman, are from educational research, psychology (particularly parapsychology), and physics. He also mentions other kinds of dishonesty, for example, falsely promoting one's research to secure funding.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


My conclusion is that the 'original birthers' were NOT 'cargo cult law' proponents since they obviously knew what they meant with the three word unit 'natural born Citizen' and that their 'original intent' could ONLY refer to ONLY birth U.S. soil with two U.S. Citizen parents.

If it ALSO referred to foreign soil with LESS than two U.S. Citizen parents defining a 1787 'natural born Citizen' of America, well, THAT is not sensible.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"William Rawle is not in the same league as Founder, Framer, and U.S. Supreme Court Justice, James Wilson."

But Rawle sure trounces you, Esquire Apuzzo. Rawle implies, under the give facts, that Joseph was born a citizen. Who says different? Contrary to your pretension, Wilson does not. Your quote of Wilson does not consider citizenship at birth. It's just you again making up positions for those who are no longer alive to speak for themselves.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"There is no element of Lockean consent to being a member of society in what he said."

You don't know what you are talking about. Rawle's text, "A View of the Constitution of the United States", begins:

"By a constitution we mean the principles on which a government is formed and conducted.

"On the voluntary association of men in sufficient numbers to form a political community, the first step to be taken for their own security and happiness, is to agree on the terms on which they are to be united and to act. They form a constitution, or plan of government suited to their character, their exigencies, and their future prospects. They agree that it shall be the supreme rule of obligation among them."

Is that not Lockean? Does it not proclaim that such a government derives its legitimate authority from the consent of the governed?

On the other hand, your notion that Vattel's "Law of Nations" was incorporated into the Constitution is anathema to those ideals. Vattel recommended monarchy above all other forms of government.

Unknown said...

the obots conveniently call what Chief Justice Waite wrote about the natives/NBCs in minor dicta and also ignore the simple fact that WKA was ruled a citizen of the US, not a NBC. WKA even being called a 14th amendment citizen was wrong decision anyways because children of foreigners are not subject to US jurisdiction. A commenter here showed that children of aliens did not have to register for draft, i wonder why that would be? Could mexico draft the child of US citizens into their army just because their son was born in a mexican hospital and was only there for a short time? That is preposterous. Children have always inherited citizenship from the parents no matter where born which is natural and if you are "born in a country of parents who are its citizens" then you are a native or natural born citizen. God makes NBCs, congress can make citizens.

MichaelN said...

Correction.........

English eligibility for the status of natural born subject is not the same as American eligibility for one who is already a citizen, for the the office of president of a republic.

Ergo: The English "natural born subject" is analogous with a native-born 14th Amendment "citizen of the United States" and by operation of the same principle.

Both are basic entry level of the native-born into the national community, neither are qualifications for highest office.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...


Slartibartfast,

You are wrong about James Madison’s Ramsay/Smith quote. He was only defining a “citizen,” not a “natural born citizen,” which is the minimum (for seven years) Smith had to be to be a member of the House of Representatives. Madison was defining citizenship in a state, not citizenship in the United States. Smith, who Madison ruled a state citizen, only became a “citizen of the United States” through the Constitution.

After the Constitution was ratified and Congress entered the field of citizenship, all bets were off. Madison no longer used the criterion of birth in the country to make one a national “citizen of the United States.” The Madison Administration is very clear on this given its ruling in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811, which interpreted and applied the Naturalization Act of 1802, which contained the same language as existed in the Acts of 1790 and 1795, i.e., children born to parents who naturalize and who shall be dwelling in the United States. Indeed, that decision clearly shows that birth in the United States alone was no longer sufficient to make one a “citizen of the United States.” Rather, a child born in the United States to alien parents became a “citizen of the United States” only upon the naturalization of his or her parents if done during the child’s minority and at the time the child shall be dwelling in the United States. If such naturalization did not occur within that time and circumstance, that child upon becoming an adult needed to naturalize on his or her own under a naturalization act of Congress in order to become a “citizen of the United States.” Of course, none of that made the child or child who became an adult a “natural born citizen.”

You and Rawle are wrong about how Rawle defined a “natural born citizen.” Rawle assumed without demonstrating that the conditions that made a citizen of a state as of the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified (simply being born in a state) automatically made one a “natural born citizen” after its adoption and ratification. Rawle proclaims his definition of a “natural born citizen” by saying, “Therefore,” indicating that his definition follows from what he explained earlier in his paragraph. Hence, what he argues is that those born after the adoption of the Constitution under the same circumstances that made persons citizens of a state and therefore “citizens of the United States” upon the ratification of the Constitution automatically made those persons “natural born citizens” at that subsequent time. Rawle’s error is conflating and confounding a state citizen who became a “citizen of the United States” (applicable to those born before and up to the adoption of the Constitution) with a “natural born citizen” (applicable to those born after the adoption of the Constitution). Providing no analysis for his conclusion, he like you erroneously blends the two classes of citizens together, with no consideration to what specific birth circumstances the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers required to be met for one to be a “natural born citizen.”

You are also wrong with respect to the Confederate constitution. That constitution is a slam dunk for the Anti-Obots, not for the Obots. If you want me to explain this, I will be happy to do so.

Also, you and any other Obot have yet to provide for me the source and definition of your phantom “citizen of the United States.”

So, Slartibarfast, like your partner Unknown/NotLinda (who wants to win this debate by telling us about the color of flowers), you keep trying, but just keep failing.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Of course, I do not expect Stranger/Mr. Nash to address anything that I said other than to tell me that because of natural selection, I am wrong and he is right."

Mr. Apuzzo, you chose to have courts address what you say. You ventured out of your blogsphere world of make believe to seek an answer, and got one. Mr. Nash shows no connection to the real world, but that doesn't make him any more of a reality-denier than you.

Nash likes to cite only himself. He rejected your "statement from this prestigious law review" on his own authority. Me, I checked out what that article actually says and what that publication actually is. Nash's self-citation is merely vacuous. Your reference, Mr. Apuzzo, is significantly worse than useless for you in that it outright refutes your stance.

I often find Nash amusing, but haven't seen anything from him funnier than a professional attorney calling a Christian Evangelical periodical a "prestigious law review".

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"The only one writing repetitive 'garbage' (your word) on here is you. And now you also want to silence me regarding what I personally think about a court's decision on the grounds that I 'denigrate the courts.'"

Proponents of crank theories frequently pretend that debunking what they say is an attempt to deny their rights and silence them. There's no one attacking Apuzzo's First Amendment freedom of expression, just the false and shameful content of what he says.

Mr. Apuzzo has tried to pull this one before. Over at Bob Quasius's blog, Apuzzo claimed, directed at me, "And now she also suggests that I, an attorney, should not have a First Amendment right to express my opinion on the internet on matters of law. What a desperate individual."
http://www.cafeconlecherepublicans.com/is-ted-cruz-a-natural-born-citizen/

I never did any such thing. I asked Apuzzo to cite where I ever said he should not have that right. He did not answer. I asked again, and again. Apuzzo would neither provide any evidence that I ever had, nor would he retract the accusation that I had.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Face it, Unknown, you have lost every point you have ever argued here and will continue to do so."

Of course I've faced it long ago and many times: When you play judge, Mr. Apuzzo, I lose every single time. For example, on February 2, after you remarked that I'm so easy to refute, I replied, "And we've seen over and over how you do it so easily: You make yourself judge, and exercise your First Amendment right to proclaim your verdict. Yes, that is so easy." Note, Mr. Apuzzo, I acknowledged that you have the First Amendment right. I've never suggested otherwise, contrary to your claims.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Your repetitive nonsense here does not change anything."

President Obama is over a year into his second term. Congress certified both his elections without objection. Over 200 of Obama's nominees are now Federal Judges, including two Justices of the United States Supreme Court. Eligibility deniers have a zero-for-hundreds record in court, including your own cases, Mr. Apuzzo. I'm fine with the nonsense here not changing anything. How's it working out for you?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

Do your seriously think that giving us the Channel 2 rundown on things makes any legal argument that Obama and Cruz are "natural born citizens?" Why not try saying something of substance for once in your life, rather than just repeating little bits of biased news.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I see that you waste so much time giving us your little news commentary on all things Obama.

How are you making out finding for me the source and definition under that source of your phantom “citizen of the United States” that existed at the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified which also made that citizen a "natural born citizen?"

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes: an excerpt from UNDERSTANDING THE NATURE OF NATIVE-BIRTH (online shortly)

William Rawle, A View of the Constitution of the United States, pg. 86 (1829)
“Therefore every person born within the United States, its territories or districts, whether the parents are CITIZENS or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution...” [meaning eligibility to be President]

Why is native-birth not accompanied by any mention of being subject to American authority, -or mention of those who were not, -like Indians, slaves, Gypsies, or American-born children of foreign representatives and visitors? Instead we get “every person”.
So if Osama bin Laden (or King George III) had a child born in the U.S., and raised it to be a fervent Jihadi (or monarchist), it could one day run for and be elected to the presidency of the United States? Gee, the Founding Fathers and Framers of the Constitution must have been on crack when they wrote the words that would allow that.
But in fact, they never wrote any such words because the word “natural” is not interchangeable with the word “native”, (even though some dictionaries do just that in some usages) and “native-born citizen” is not interchangeable with “natural born citizen” because one follows Natural Law while the other follows the dictate of human dictators.
Bear in mind the meaning of the word “pontification”. It often involves making claims unsupported by anything. Quotes like his are just the echoing of echoes of beliefs of men who were once a part of a great but rejected unjust foreign empire, and never got past the programming that it inculcated into their minds.

continue...

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

That author, William Rawle, was native-born in Pennsylvania, -a free commonwealth whose 1776 constitution did not even contain the word “citizen” but instead repeated the British systems vocabulary governing societal membership by referring to its native population as “natural born subjects“.
Other references were to “the Free men, -the people, -all people, -all men, and members of society” -as opposed to foreigners and resident foreigners who were labeled “free denizens” after a year of residency, acquiring all the rights of “natural born subjects”.

The view then wasn’t one of “citizen or non-citizen”, instead it was freeman or non-freeman. Native or outsider. It was essentially like what the view would be from the standpoint of a county, -not a free nation.

So Mr. Rawle, as an author in 1829, was indoctrinated by his experience of Pennsylvanian law as well as what was taught in law school (basically British law) into the philosophy of jus soli (or soil-based) membership totally replacing natural jus sanguinis (or blood-based) citizenship as it had devolved in Britain and been imposed in the colonies.

Those who wrote the first laws in the colonies that allowed alien immigrants’ children to be accepted as subjects or citizens or nationals (if not accepted by native-birth alone) did not do so with the thought that such a legal allowance made for a tiny minority of their population would one day mistakenly be viewed as replacing the eternal natural basis of natural membership.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said ...

"So Mr. Rawle, as an author in 1829, was indoctrinated by his experience of Pennsylvanian law as well as what was taught in law school (basically British law) into the philosophy of jus soli (or soil-based) membership totally replacing natural jus sanguinis (or blood-based) citizenship as it had devolved in Britain and been imposed in the colonies."

Reply:
English law was never about jus soli alone as sufficient to make a subject born.

Native-birth was only ONE of TWO qualities required to make a subject-born.

Parental allegiance was the deciding factor in determining whether a native-born was a subject-born.

Ergo: the English common law NEVER recognized a subject-born based only on jus soli

The combination of jus soli AND jus sanguinis has always been the standard.

Parental allegiance (jus sanguinis) was always the deciding factor, without which a native-born could not be a subject at all, not even by jus soli.

With regard to the native-born, US American law recognizes degrees of parental allegiance; this is demonstrated in Articles I & II of the US Constitution, where there is a differentiation between "citizen of the United States" and "natural born Citizen" of the United States, i.e. a native-born "citizen of the United States" who is NOT also a "natural born Citizen", is only eligible for the Congress and not eligible for the office of POTUS, but another native-born "citizen of the United States" who IS also a "natural born Citizen" is eligible for both offices, POTUS eligibility requiring a higher allegiance than Congress eligibility.

The native-birth factor remains equal and unchanged, but there must be a factor which gives one COTUS eligibility for POTUS yet another no eligibility.

The only factor that can possibly be different between a native-born COTUS and a native-born NBC OTUS, is degree of parental allegiance.



Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

You stated that our law schools taught the English common law as a source for defining our national citizenship. This is an erroneous statement. Consider the following exchange between Obot Linda and me.

Here is what Obot Linda commented to me on this blog:

Linda said: “Since Mr. Apuzzo is adamant that the Court in Minor defined NBC, it follows that if correct, it would be taught in law schools across the country as a pivotal decision on citizenship.”

My reply: I am happy to see that you concede that what our nation’s law schools taught regarding citizenship is a significant factor in discovering what our nation considered to be our national law and how our nation defined our national citizenship under that law. Well, I hate to break the bad news to you but our law schools (e.g. College of William and Mary which was our nation’s first law school) taught Vattel and the law of nations as being part of our “national law” and even lectured and explained Vattel’s concepts on citizenship. Professor and Judge Beverly Tucker was Professor of Law at the prestigious College of William and Mary in Virginia from 1833 to 1851. In his law lectures on “National Law” at William and Mary College, he explained the meaning of Vattel’s Chapter 19 and specifically Section 212 of his The Law of Nations, which covered the definitions of “citizen” and “natural-born citizen.” Our law schools did not teach that the English common law defined our national citizenship. See my brief to the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania in Kerchner and Laudenslager v. Obama for greater details on these early American law school teachings of Vattel and his rules on citizenship.

Unknown said...

Obviously the 14th amendment of US Constitution has always been irrelevant because someone named william rawle said children of aliens born in US are "natural born citizens" while the 14th calls them "citizens of the US" if they are born in US and subject to jurisdiction thereof. Only a crank birther would be splitting hairs over a citizen and a natural born citizen. So what if a citizen is not eligible in A2 now, all the Framers are dead anyways. What Chief Justice Marshall and CJ Waite wrote about the natives or NBCs is just dicta but what Rawle wrote is the final word on this subject and would have more authority than SC case law. A child of a alien is a NBC and own sun is made of ice too, you now know this is true because i wrote it but just do not ask me to prove it. I am auditioning to be a hack judge in NJ and Ga even though it has not been possible for judges to ever be biased and crooked. The state judges in these ballot challenges are all Great Men who defend the rule of law and the US Constitution

ajtelles said...

A 'slam dunk'...

Mario, on March 1, 2014 at 11:37 AM you said to Slartibartfast:

"You are also wrong with respect to the Confederate constitution.

"That constitution is a slam dunk for the Anti-Obots, not for the Obots.

"If you want me to explain this, I will be happy to do so."

- - - - - - - - - -

Well, sure, Slartibartfast would like to know what the Confederation Constitution authors meant, but he's shy about admitting that the 1861 Confederates agreed with the 1787 Federalists about birth and citizenship.

Also, I would like to know how you would describe the serendipitous 'slam dunk' of the 1861 Confederate Constitution as it applies today to both the 2009 Obots and the Anti-Obots, aka 'WE the Posterity' of the 'original birthers' of 1787.

My previous original comment about the 1861 Confederate Constitution is here

>> February 25, 2014 at 7:58 PM

That was followed by two comments to Slartibartfast, who didn't make the connection with the intro about possible future Article V state legislature conventions to amend the Constitution instead of waiting for the House and Senate.

>> February 28, 2014 at 12:55 AM
>> February 28, 2014 at 10:20 AM



Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario said: "You stated that our law schools taught the English common law as a source for defining our national citizenship. This is an erroneous statement."

It probably is but I didn't state it. You misquoted what I wrote.

"Rawle...was indoctrinated by his experience of...what was taught in law school...into the philosophy of jus soli (or soil-based) membership" but my mistake was using the word "citizenship" instead of what I was referring to, which was subjectship pre-revolution.

MichaelN wrote: "Parental allegiance was the deciding factor in determining whether a native-born was a subject-born."

In theory, that is true. But in practice, it was irrelevant because the issue revolved around children of immigrants, -NOT children of invaders or foreign ambassadors.

All children of immigrants were born subject to the king, so talk of what their allegiance was or was not did not occur since it was unnecessary. Thus, in all of such cases, native-birth alone was looked at as the deciding factor, because the other factor was a "given". Their fathers were all subject to owing "temporary allegiance".
In the colonies, there were no foreign ambassadors, and the enemy aliens who were Indians or French, were not present in American society, so every immigrant's son born in America was a subject of the king of England regardless of the father's nationality even though they were subjects because of it if British.

It simply was not the subject of focus when native-birth was used as a replacement instead thanks to the fall-out from the Calvin case.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
"If you read my statement in the context of my argument, there is no ambiguity. Unknown knows that there is no ambiguity. She is just playing dumb and showing her false outrage. I never denied 'citizens of the United States' the right to prove that they are also 'natural born citizens,' and therefore, as 'natural born citizens,' and not as 'citizens of the United States,' they are also eligible to be President."

Then we reread that precious statement of yours, Mr. Apuzzo, as you yourself chose to quote it:

"The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."

You sure are right about no ambiguity. Do you know what that word, "any", means? Do you know how to use a dictionary?

Reading it in the context of your argument -- and I linked the original presentation when I first quoted it here -- it looks even sillier. You followed with the laughable question, "how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?"
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/

If you object that I'm not appreciating the depth of your theory, well, I'd say a theory that leaves you wondering how an Article II natural born citizen could also be a citizen of the United States might not be a theory worth pursuing.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I see that you do not have any answers to the many questions that I have asked you so you have decided to evade addressing the real stuff and rather just continue your hand at being a great deceiver and to persist in your repetitive nonsense.

Again, you quote me out of context: "The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."

You know darn well that what that means is that for those born after the adoption of the Constitution (like Obama and Cruz), the status of being a “citizen of the United States” was no longer sufficient to be eligible to be President, for only a “natural born citizen” was then eligible. What this means is that there were only two classes of citizens eligible to be President, one was a “natural born citizen” and the other was a “Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution.” Since the Framers knew that all “Citizens of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution” would eventually die, and they did not provide that future “citizens of the United States” could be eligible to be President, they clearly and with certainty communicated that in the future (like today) the only class of citizen that was to be eligible to be President was a “natural born citizen.”

This clear national policy choice made by the People through the Framers and Ratifiers, which choice has never been amended by any duly ratified constitutional amendment or the U.S. Supreme Court, disqualifies Obama and Cruz from being President. While they may be able to show that they are “citizens of the United States,” the People told us that such a status is not sufficient to be President and they cannot also demonstrate that they are “natural born citizens.”

You continue your nonsense with this: “You followed with the laughable question, ‘how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?’
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/."

If what I said is so laughable, why have you not been able to give me one example of a “citizen of the United States,” who Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 grandfathered to be eligible to be President, and who was at the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified, also a “natural born citizen?”

Finally, you end your inane comment with this: “If you object that I'm not appreciating the depth of your theory, well, I'd say a theory that leaves you wondering how an Article II natural born citizen could also be a citizen of the United States might not be a theory worth pursuing.”

Not only do you not have the mental capacity to understand what a “natural born citizen” is, but you also lack in basic logical skills. I never said that a “natural born citizen” cannot also be a “citizen of the United States,” for clearly “natural born citizens” also satisfy the common law definition of a “citizen” and the much subsequent Civil Rights Act of 1866, the Fourteenth Amendment, and 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) definition of a “citizen of the United States.” Rather, what I have maintained is that being a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment or any Act of Congress is not sufficient to prove that one is an Article II “natural born citizen.”

So, Unknown/NotLinda, like I have told you many times before, you keep trying, but your just keep failing.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said....

"Thus, in all of such cases, native-birth alone was looked at as the deciding factor, because the other factor was a "given". Their fathers were all subject to owing "temporary allegiance"
.................

All native-born were equally native-born persons and were not recognized as subjects/citizens until the allegiance of the parents was determined.

The point is that there were two qualities required to make a natural born subject of the English sovereign, also there are also two qualities required to make a 14th Amendment native-born COTUS.

Jus soli alone, was never the criteria for determining who may be a subject/citizen.

Parental allegiance has always been the deciding factor. ...... PERIOD!

ajtelles said...

Part 1 of 2

Article V and 'natural born Citizen'

Hi Mario,

While your responses to the digs at you by the Obots in their 'you-said-this-and-it-indicates-you-don't-understand-Rawle-or-Vattel-or-Coke-or-whomever' negative insinuations (notice they never mention the original intent of the 1787 original birthers), and the back and forth is pertinent and substantive on your part, I've been wondering for months how you could take the point-counterpoint to a higher level since like gnats the Obots don't think, they just knee-jerk emote.

Well, I think that the current interest in an Article V convention of states to amend the constitution might be a step up in point-counterpoint, a Puzo1.blogspot.com convention, so to speak, to hash out the better and clearer wording of an amendment about the meaning to the 1787 original birthers of 'natural born Citizen' only since the '... or a Citizen' part is no longer operative, before it actually is considered at an official Article V convention called by the requisite 34 states to amend the constitution.

Your response to Unknown a/k/a NotLinda above on March 2, 2014 at 3:38 PM is excellent in clearly explaining the issue, the difference between a 1787 'natural born Citizen' vs. the 1787 '... or a Citizen' until the last '... or a Citizen' citizen died sometime in the 1800s.

"Since the Framers knew that all 'Citizens of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution' would eventually die,

"and they did not provide that future 'citizens of the United States' could be eligible to be President,

"they clearly and with certainty communicated that in the future (like today) the only class of citizen that was to be eligible to be President was a 'natural born citizen.' ”


Of course you must respond to the Obot 'original intent' recalcitrants in your Puzo1 blog class when you are challenged with nonsense about your understanding of the original intent of the 1787 original birthers who knew what 'natural born Citizen' meant to them and which they expected would continue to mean the same thing for their posterity, as was revealed in the serendipity provided by the authors of the 1861 Confederate constitution.

However, my point here is that maybe the Obot 'original intent' recalcitrants need a little help in understanding the original intent of the 'original birthers' by participating on your Puzo1 blog in a mock convention to amend the constitution to make Article II Clause 1 Clause 5 clearer before another OCCUPY' the Oval Office of America putsch is attempted again, by either a Democrat or a Republican, including my home state and my favorite Senator Rafael Edward 'Ted' Cruz.

After the possible wording is recommended, well, the 'original intent' of the Obots would need to be defended by them, not by reference to ancient writings that many of them to not consider relevant today, but by their own reasoning processes visible for all to read and comment upon.

Then, THEY would have to defend and define THEIR OWN 'original intent' with coherent sentences visible for all to read and comment upon.

After the wording is hashed out on your Puzo 1 blog, there could be a vote to adopt the final wording of the amendment.


OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

ajtelles said...

Article V and 'natural born Citizen'

Part 2 of 2

After Article II Section 1 Clause 5 is amended with a definition that retains the original intent of the 1787 original birthers as ONLY a reference to birth on U.S. soil with two U.S. Citizen parents who are married (… in 1787 America... DEFINITELY married) to each other BEFORE the child is born, then other amendments could be considered.

My first preference would be repeal of the 17th amendment electing federal senators and giving BACK to the states their authority to choose their OWN Senators to represent the States in the bicameral Federal Congress and NOT the Senators going contrary to their own States wishes and representing the wishes of the Federal Congress or the Federal Executive or the Federal Judiciary to the States.

After the repeal of the 1913 17th amendment should be repeal of the 1913 16th amendment and taxes on income before the income can generate interest in interest bearing accounts.

After repeal of the 16th and 17th amendments, term limits for House and Senate and the SCOTUS should definitely be next.

Some scholars, such as Prof. Rob Natelson at Constitutioni2i.org for example, have argued that repeal of the 17th amendment would not be possible because the power structure would militate against losing power and authority.

However, Article V was included in the constitution for a very good reason that is proving to be prescient, i.e., giving the several states an EQUAL status with the tripartite federal government in amending the constitution if a power hungry and corrupt tripartite federal government (e.g., the House and Senate and the 'call it a tax' SCOTUS in cahoots with the Executive about ObamaCare which communizes America with an all are equal health care system) needed to be stopped and course corrected.

Article V was put in the constitution to deal with usurpation of any kind, including the "... we are five days away from transforming the United States of America" 'OCCUPY' America putsch of Obot-in-Chief Obama, AND hopefully NOT my home state and favorite Senator Rafael Edward 'Ted' Cruz.

Finally, Mario, I think the honest Obots and Anti-Obots, thinkers and emoters, are ALL included in 'WE the Posterity' of the 'original birthers' who wrote the preamble with the still relevant words "We the People ... to form a more perfect [complete AND perpetual] Union," and an Article V convention of states to amend the constitution is the prescient way of the 'original birthers' for WE their Posterity' to stop the current Putschist-in-Chief and any future wanna be 'OCCUPY' America Putschist-in-Chief.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Hot off the keyboard... You'll love and hate it at the same time.

James Madison said: “the petitioner [Dr. Ramsay] is a man...who would not lightly hazard his reputation in support of visionary principles:”

That characterization shows that the view of Ramsay and the means he listed by which citizenship was obtained were entirely practical means, -down-to-earth means, incontestable means.
They involved no high-concept ideas. No amalgamation of doctrines and principles, no new conceptual pattern which married divergent sources of national membership, -no “stronger” and “higher allegiance” ideas based on a concept of national membership requiring both native-birth and native parents.
Such a hybrid, cross-pollinated, artificially-grafted creation would have been labeled a Frankenstein monster if Shelley’s classic had been written a century earlier. Visionary principles is not a derogatory characterization but an accurate characterization.
Being visionary, -high concept, inspiring, does not give a new doctrine any anchor in reality, since the only reality is natural reality, -not visionary reality.
Citizenship, like membership, is a term that is conceptual in nature, and that concept follows certain laws, and those laws are both natural laws and human laws.

cont...



Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues...

If you are covered by one, you are not, -and do not need to be, covered by the other. They are two completely different origins of membership, just as with natural children and adopted children.

One child comes by nature, -the other comes by allowance of government.
You do not need the government’s permission if your child came by nature, but you cannot avoid needing the government’s permission if it did not.
But both are embraced as equal because in America we are all about equality.

But we make one very sane and wise exception to our otherwise universal equality, and that is when it comes to the awesome force of the Martial and Military and Nuclear power of the nation.
For the man that would be given the scepter of such power, we require than he be wholly one of us, and not partially tied to others via blood ties, natural inheritance, foreign birthright membership.
He cannot command us and our armies unless he is 100% of us and no others. 100% American by primal connection, by blood relationship, by natural birthright, by inheritance, by descent from citizen parents. Such an American is a natural born citizen of America. No other kind of person is.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"and they did not provide that future 'citizens of the United States' could be eligible to be President,"

It is a serious bastardization of the English language to make such a statement since "Citizen of the United States" was considered the most prized and desirable national status on Earth at the time, and is NOT a separate class or set from natural citizens. Rather, it is the parent set.

NBC is a sub-set comprised of about 98% of the population. That sub-set became the only set when the members of the parent-set (who were NOT members of the sub-set) had died off.

The parent set consisted of three sub-sets; 1. those born as foreign subjects but naturalized, 2. those born in America in jus soli States of immigrant foreigners. 3. those born of American citizens.

The eligible members of the parent set slowly shrank in numbers as they died over time. Eventually there were none left and only those in the natural born citizens sub-set remained eligible.

The two other sub-sets then became off-limits forever, -until BAIR-ek (Barry)o-BAM-a emerged from under a rock.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

~possible qualifications for a newly written eligibility clause:

1. Native birth.
2. Citizen birth.
3. Both 1 & 2.
4. Either 1 or 2.

Only 2 is natural.

1. "No citizen except a native-born citizen shall be eligible..."

3. "No citizen except a native-born citizen-born citizen shall be eligible..."

4. "No citizen except a citizen-born citizen OR a native-born citizen shall be eligible..."

2. "No citizen except a NATURAL born citizen shall be eligible..."

THAT's Natural Law.

That's membership by blood which is the natural pattern throughout history and throughout nature. It's PRIMAL. NATURAL. Everything else is manufactured and artificial.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

So let me understand you, Mr. Nash. The Framers said in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5:

“No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.”

So, they clearly said that if one was not a “natural born citizen,” one had to be a “Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution," in order to be eligible to be President. But you would have us believe that they also said or at least intended that if one acquired the status of a “citizen of the United States” after the adoption of the Constitution, one was also eligible. Do you realize how ridiculous your positions are? If what you say were correct, the Framers would not have caused the grandfather benefit (that “citizens of the United States” were eligible to be President) to sunset with the adoption of the Constitution for those who were born after the adoption. There would not have been any need to even have a grandfather clause. You cannot possibly reconcile the sunset provision with your theory of “citizens of the United States” who acquired that status after the adoption still being eligible after the adoption of the Constitution.

Additionally, you keep pushing that mystical “citizen of the United States,” but you have not been able to give me one example of a “citizen of the United States,” who Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 grandfathered to be eligible to be President, and who was at the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified, also a “natural born citizen?” If you are not able to produce such an example, then when and how did your phantom “citizen of the United States” come into existence?

Also, there is nothing difficult about the definition of a “natural born citizen.” We do not need all your talk about subsets which had no application in the definition of the clause at the time the Framers wrote the clause into the Constitution. Your logic is really off. Since none of the “citizens of the United States” at the time the Constitution was adopted were “natural born citizens,” “natural born citizens” cannot possibly be a subset of the “citizens of the United States.” Whatever changes were made later in our history through the Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, or treaties to the definition of a “citizen of the United States” did not change the original meaning of a “natural born citizen.”

The definition of a “natural born citizen” does not need all your gyrations and lists. It is simply a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Also, I am sorry but my imagination is not as active as yours to be able to see Frankenstein in any of that.

Unknown said...

Children of americans born outside of the US are citizens of the US and eligible to serve in Congress. Children of americans born in the US are natural born citizens and eligible to serve in Congress and as CiC. Children of aliens who naturalise are citizens of the US. My wifes ceritificate of naturalisation says she is a citizen of the US so even though article 2 was written 226 years ago we are still rightfully using the term cotus like the Founders did. If you are only a cotus then you are not eligible for CiC

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Leo,

You left off children born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” are “citizens of the United States” by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment and mirror Act of Congress (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a)). These citizens can also be “natural born citizens” if they satisfy the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., if they were born in the United States to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. If these citizens satisfy only the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress and not also the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” they are “citizens of the United States,” and not also “natural born citizens.”

ajtelles said...

Correction...

Mario, Prof. Rob. Natelson's correct url is Constitution.i2i.org... I missed the dot before i2i.org.

Although Natelson is not an 'Anti-Obot', aka what I have accurately called for a few years the 'original birthers' who knew their original intent about 'natural born Citizen', his book The Original Constitution: What It Actually Said and Meant takes the historical perspective about American history, not shallow thinker innuendo and shallow thinker insinuations that are found on TheFogbow.com, ObamaConspiracy.org, Birtherthinktank.wordpress.com which I visited a few minutes ago.

Those Obot sites seem to be the blog equivalent of the fluff stuff found on The Inquirer and on People mag, for example... a whole lotta nothin' but fluff stuff.

Now, if they were exposing how Illinois local 'community organizer' Obama transformed himself into the national commune organizer with ObamaCare with the help of the SCOTUS and specifically the help of Chief Justice John 'call it a tax' Roberts, well, Dr. Conspiracy for example, might find a good reason to say something relevant about the transformation of America from the 1787 free republic and a "... more perfect Union" into the National Commune of America.

What gets me is that the Obot “fluff stuff” blogs are so articulate and so well spoken... about junk.

When Article V is taken seriously by 'WE the Posterity' of "WE the People" through our state legislatures and we meet to amend the Constitution to undo the damage against freedom done by the tripartite Federal government, Legislature, Executive and Judicial branches, I hope the 'fluff stuff' Obot blogs will continue to be "so articulate and
so well spoken" about substance that can restore in America freedom TO want, which is the history of America, and not freedom FROM want, which is NOT the history of America since 1776 and codified in 1787,the history of failed Communism everywhere... for example in Cuba.

Thoughtful philosophical and political substance instead of 'fluff stuff' is not too much to ask from 'so articulate and so well spoken' Obots who truly are fellow "WE the Posterity" of "WE the People" who were the 'original birthers' who knew something of 'original intent', is it?

Nope, it's not... I hope.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Unknown said...

Mario, i left out the 14th because a real nbc did not need it to become a citizen. Anyways, you know all the ins and outs of the US Constitution and i accept what you write because you are trying to honestly educate the public on this important matter. I love history and our Founders and have greatly enjoyed you showing us all the old SC cases, reading your comments, essays, writings of Publius and nailing the obot shills to the wall. You must be a little bit of a threat to the df president or else they would not keep coming here to lie. I know we are stuck with the fraud for 35 more months but at least more people know what a NBC is now

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"And by the way, I am still waiting for you and Stranger/Adrien Nash to show me how a person who is a 'citizen of the United States' today is eligible to be President."

You wait for the past. We've already explained that to you several times. I gave you specific examples of people, born after the adoption of the Constitution, each of whom was a 'citizen of the United States' and eligible to be President.

You keep changing the time frame. My first example was Ronald W. Reagan, but then you wanted evidence from before the Fourteenth Amendment. No problem. Abraham Lincoln is a fine example of a person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a "citizen of the United States" and also eligible to be president. Now you want me to show you how "today" a person that is a "citizen of the United States" can also be eligible to be president.

Still, no problem. George Herbert Walker Bush was a Member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Texas's 7th district, for which he had to be, in the very words of our Constitution, a "citizen of the United States". He was also eligible to be President, as we know because he actually was President. He never expatriated so he is today a citizen of the United States, and having served only one term as President he is still eligible to be President today.

Challenge met. I have just shown you, as you requested, "how a person who is a 'citizen of the United States' today is eligible to be President." I had already answered other variants you posed of that silly question.

Mr. Apuzzo, you wrote, to Mr. Nash, "You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President." Au contraire; I love that statement of yours. Your statement is so clear and so clearly crank nonsense. I also love that you followed it with the laughable question, "how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Obots have been using the Minor said-it-in-the-reverse-order argument for many years."

No, *you* have been stating the implication in the wrong direction. Minor had it correct: A child born in the country to parents who are citizens is a natural born citizen, no doubt. The very next paragraph in Minor notes that Congress was within its constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were citizens. Thus we see that, contrary to your claims, children born in the country to parents who were citizens are *not* the *only* natural-born citizens under our laws.
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), at 168-169.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I of II
The Constitution at Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 uses 'natural born citizen' and 'citizen of the United States,' two distinct and separate clauses. In plain language, regarding the citizenship requirement, it informs that for those born before the Constitution was adopted, it was sufficient to be a 'citizen of the United States' to be eligible to be President."

Everyone already knew that, Mr. Apuzzo.

Consider quoting whatever it is to which you are responding, so readers can tell specifically what you are on about in this prolix multi-part response. Near as I can tell, you are still trying to justify your absurd statement that you quoted yourself within:

"You and Unknown do not like my statement: 'The grandfather clause...said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.'"

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario said: So let me understand you, Mr. Nash. The Framers said in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5:...

No, Mario, if you want to understand me, then do not quote the founders, -quote me and then dissect my actual quote.

DO NOT invent from your imagination what I wrote; quote it directly.

"Do you realize how ridiculous your positions are" when you pretend someone wrote something that they never wrote? It's like you are shadow boxing or something.

Don't tell me what I meant; tell me what I wrote. You can dispute what you claim I said or meant but that is having a debate with yourself.
You have disputed nothing that I wrote because you cannot dispute the truth. Instead you dispute the definition of your fictional clause, -the one where you habitually and without fail surround any mention of citizens of the United States with quotation marks. NO SUCH TERM OF ARTIFICE EXISTS!

But you've got it buried deep in your brain that it does. That makes discussion impossible because you continue to refer to something that is non-existent.

You can't show anyone else every placing the label for American citizens in quotes. Citizens of... the United States are what? -they are not citizens of... Mexico, or anywhere else.

They are not some arcane constitutionally defined group that you can invent to justify your fantasy of amalgamating natural membership with artificial membership.
But since letting go of your deeply embedded dogma is impossible for you, debating facts with you is no more fruitful or possible than debating with a rock.

Your crass characterization and evasion of what I wrote is clear evidence that you are not intellectually honest. Thus it is not very likely that I will see nothing but honest replies from you. I think I'm far from alone in seeing that unavoidable fact.

PS. what I wrote wasn't even aimed at you since I know you can assimilate it.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

ajtelles said...

After Article II Section 1 Clause 5 is amended with a definition that retains... birth on U.S. soil with two U.S. Citizen parents who are married (in 1787 America... DEFINITELY married) to each other BEFORE the child is born,..

Subjective preferences are irrelevant.
Marriage is irrelevant in nature. Only parentage and nationality matter in natural citizenship.

American parents, married or not, have no foreign alienage. A child born to them inside or outside of marriage is a natural American and a natural citizen.

Try to understand the principle involved and what it does not include. It does not include race, religion, social status, marriage, place of birth or gender. It only includes origin.

Only origin is a natural factor in natural citizenship. Any foreign origin is barred. Dual citizenship by parentage is thus unqualified.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Leo, in regard to Will Rawles, here's something I wrote yesterday, page 17 of a 24 page exposition debunking the historical "experts" who made ignorant statements like his.
"“Therefore every person born within the United States...whether the parents are CITIZENS or aliens, is a natural born citizen in the sense of the Constitution,"

That author, William Rawle, was native-born in Pennsylvania, -a free commonwealth whose 1776 constitution did not even contain the word “citizen” but instead repeated the British systems vocabulary governing societal membership by referring to its native population as “natural born subjects“.
Other references were to “the Free men, -the people, -all people, -all men, and members of society” -as opposed to foreigners and resident foreigners who were labeled “free denizens” after a year of residency, acquiring all the rights of “natural born subjects”.
The view then wasn’t one of “citizen or non-citizen”, instead it was freeman or non-freeman. Native or outsider. It was essentially like what the view would be from the standpoint of a county, -not a free nation.

So Mr. Rawle, as an author in 1829, was indoctrinated by his experience of Pennsylvanian law as well as what was taught in law school (basically British law) into the philosophy of jus soli (or soil-based) membership...

Why is native-birth not accompanied by any mention of being subject to American authority, -or mention of those who were not, -like Indians, slaves, Gypsies, or American-born children of foreign representatives and visitors? Instead we get “every person”.
So if Osama bin Laden (or King George III) had a child born in the U.S., and raised it to be a fervent Jihadi (or monarchist), it could one day run for and be elected to the presidency of the United States? Gee, the Founding Fathers and Framers of the Constitution must have been on crack when they wrote the words that would allow that.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I said: "Obots have been using the Minor said-it-in-the-reverse-order argument for many years."

You replied: “No, *you* have been stating the implication in the wrong direction. Minor had it correct: A child born in the country to parents who are citizens is a natural born citizen, no doubt. The very next paragraph in Minor notes that Congress was within its constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were citizens. Thus we see that, contrary to your claims, children born in the country to parents who were citizens are *not* the *only* natural-born citizens under our laws. Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), at 168-169.”

+++++

My reply:

You invent stuff when you say that Minor said that Congress has the “constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were its citizens.” That question was not before the Court. In any event, Congress can consider such children as “natural born citizens,” which is what it did in 1790. But that means nothing, for I can consider you as my brother, but that does not make you my brother in fact. I can also through statute adopt a child, but that does not make that child my natural child. Moreover, assuming that Congress has such power, once you open the door and give Congress the power, that door must remain open for Congress to decline to exercise that power or to exercising that power as it deems reasonable and proper. Hence, Congress surely then also has the power to consider such children no longer “natural born citizens,” which is what it specifically did starting in 1795 and so continuing to today. So, you are not able to point to one Act of Congress on the books today in which is considers anyone a “natural born citizen.” Please do tell to what Acts of Congress that are still in effect today Ted Cruz and Obama, if he was not born in the United States, are looking in which Congress considers them as “natural born citizens?”

It is also contrary to fundamental constitutional law that you would suggest that Congress can amend the meaning of a “natural born citizen,” which is amending the Constitution, with a statute rather than with a duly ratified constitutional amendment.

Finally, I am happy to see that you have learned something in all this. Indeed, you are correct and I am using your exact words: “Minor had it correct: A child born in the country to parents who are citizens is a natural born citizen, no doubt.”

ajtelles said...

Part 1 of 2

Original intent vs. 'subjective preference' of a.r.nash


Stranger/a.r.nash wrote on March 3, 2014 at 3:49 AM

"ajtelles said...

" 'After Article II Section 1 Clause 5 is amended with a definition that retains... birth on U.S. soil with two U.S. Citizen parents who are married (in 1787 America... DEFINITELY married) to each other BEFORE the child is born,..' "

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


a.r.nash, after quoting me you add your subjective point of view that

"Subjective preferences are irrelevant.

"Marriage is irrelevant in nature. Only parentage and nationality matter in natural citizenship."

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


The point under discussion a.r.nash is the original intent of the original birthers, not our "subjective preferences" such as you insist on expressing.

You express your subjective understanding about

"marriage"
"nature"
"parentage"
"alienage"
"natural American"
"natural citizen"
"race"
"religion"
"social status"
"marriage"
"place of birth"
"gender"

and say that

"American parents, married or not, have no foreign alienage. A child born to them inside or outside of marriage is a natural American and a natural citizen."
_ _

Well, that is you, a.r.nash, imposing your own "subjective preference" on the original intent of the 1787 original birthers who had a "subjective preference" of their own and their "subjective preference" trumps yours, a.r.nash.

The question is what did "parent," the "married" moms and pops of a "natural born Citizen," mean to THEM, the 1787 "married" original birthers who knew their own original intent?

The question is NOT what does "parent" of a "natural born Citizen" mean to you, a.r.nash.

Since you don't take seriously Mario's informed, well though out and coherent writings a.r.nash, maybe you should read Prof. Rob Natelsons book The Original Constitution: What It Actually Said and Meant, in which Natelson takes the historical perspective about American history and not the "subjective preference" perspective. See his book at his site, Constitution.i2i.org.

Start with the original intent of the original birthers, a.r.nash, and then maybe you will start making sense.


OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

ajtelles said...

Original intent vs. 'subjective preference' of a.r.nash

Part 2 of 2

That is my "subjective preference" for understanding even the 'original intent' of your own words written here.

Wheat do 'you' mean with your words, not what do 'I' say you mean with your own words.

One example from 1787 America.

Marriage was a way of life in 1776 to 1787 America, right?

Well, what was the "subjective preference" of the moms and pops of the single men who were returning to their parents' homes after independence was won and codified with the signing of the 1783 Paris Peace Treaty?

Did the 1783 moms and pops and then the 1787, 1788, 1789 and etc. moms and pops expect their boys to shack up with the girls and have children, thinking that their "posterity" would be held in high esteem in their 1700s communities and the communities of future generations?

Well, a.r.nash, what is YOUR "subjective preference" understanding about the "subjective preferences" of the moms and pops who went through the war of independence and were happy to see their boys return home knowing that the girls of their communities would find husbands who fought for their freedom?

That's a simple question, a.r.nash, that does not require a 'whole lotta' thought.

Since "marriage" was not explicitly stated by the 1787 original birthers it must have been implicitly understood. Right?

How can we 'know' today in 2014 America what was implicitly "understood" in 1787 America?

The 'original intent' of the 1787 'original birthers' obviously included "marriage" before birth of a child, considering the negative social stigma of adultry, aka "shacking up" in 1787 American and following generation.

Is the 1787 codified and thus legal term "natural born Citizen" exclusive?

Did it mean ONLY married parents?
Did it mean ONLY unmarried parents?
Did it mean ALSO married AND unmarried parents?

Which "subjective preference" do you prefer, a.r.nash?

Do you prefer your 2014 "subjective preference" or the "subjective preference" of the 1787 moms and post, some of whom were 'original birthers' who wrote and codified the words "natural born Citizen"?

Your argument, a.r.nash, is with the original intent of the 'original birthers' who obviously, explicitly and implicitly, knew what they meant with the three word unit 'natural born Citizen' in 1787 America.


Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

You derisively tell us that everyone knows that at the time of the adoption of the Constitution being a “citizen of the United States” as of the time of its adoption was sufficient to be President. But what is missing from your snark is you demonstrating how being a “citizen of the United States” continued to be sufficient after its adoption. And that my Obot friend is where it counts.

You state that you have proven me wrong because you have been able to give me examples of persons who became “citizens of the United States” after the adoption of the Constitution who were not only eligible to be President but actually served in that capacity. As examples, you have named past Presidents, Abraham Lincoln, Ronald W. Reagan, and George H. Walker Bush.

Now, the Framers wrote that anyone who was a “citizen of the United States” had to have that status as of the time the Constitution was adopted in order to be President then or in the future. They added that for those born after its adoption, they had to be “natural born citizens” in order to be so eligible. Without any doubt, Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush were born after the adoption of the Constitution. You only told us that Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush were “citizens of the United States.” Are you suggesting that they scammed the Framers and the People of the United States by being “citizens of the United States” after the adoption of the Constitution and still serving as President? Of course these fine gentlemen did not defraud the Framers and the People. Allow me to explain.

First things first. You concede that “Minor had it correct: A child born in the country to parents who are citizens is a natural born citizen, no doubt” (your words). Now that we got that out of the way let us move forward to where you commit constitutional errors.

You fail to appreciate what it means that the Civil Rights Act, the Fourteenth Amendment, and Acts of Congress, which defined citizenship, did not exist at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. There were no positive laws at that time calling someone a “citizen of the United States” who could also meet the definition of a “natural born citizen.” At the time of the adoption of the Constitution, there were no laws making anyone a “citizen of the United States” who was also a “natural born citizen.” Not even the Constitution itself did that, for the original citizens were just that and no more. And all additional “citizens of the United States” were to be made by Congress through its naturalization powers. Hence, it could not have been foreseen that any future “citizens of the United States” could be so defined so as to also satisfy the definition of a “natural born citizen” if that were their case. Therefore, at that time, there was no conflating and confounding a “citizen of the United States” with a “natural born citizen,” which is what you do through misapplication of these post-Constitution adoption positive laws. With no such laws in place, it was highly unlikely then that people would mistake a “citizen of the United States” for a “natural born citizen,” which is what people like you do today by conflating and confounding all “citizens of the United States” at birth under these post-Constitution adoption laws with an Article II “natural born citizen.”

The simple point that you continue to miss is that people like Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush are not only “citizens of the United States” at birth under the Civil Rights Act of 1866, the Fourteenth Amendment, and Act of Congress (8 U.S. Sec. 1401(a)), but also “natural born citizens” under the Framers’ constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” which

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Part II of II

was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. So they did not violate the Framers’ constitutional command that only “natural born citizens” be future presidents, because they are not only “citizens of the United States” at birth, made so by positive law, but in reality (not only “considered as” through a naturalization statute) also “natural born citizens.”

People like DF President Obama and Senator Cruz cannot make the same citizenship claim as Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush. If Obama was born in Hawaii (a fact that he has yet to conclusively prove in any court of law), he is at best a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment and 8 U.S.C. 1401(a). Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and Cuban father. He is a “citizen of the United States” at birth under an Act of Congress (8 U.S.C. 1401 (g), making it by the skin of his teeth under the last chance that a person of his age had today to be a “citizen of the United States” under Congress’s scheme). But Obama (maybe not born in the United States, but surely not born to two U.S. citizen parents) and Cruz (not born in the United States or in one of its outlying possessions and not born to two U.S. citizen parents), made “citizens of the United States” at birth by virtue of positive laws, do not also satisfy the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen.” Hence, they may be “citizens of the United States” at birth, but they are not also “natural born citizens.”

Your analysis of the meaning of an Article II “natural born citizen” has contained and continues to contain various errors. One of your fundamental errors is believing without demonstrating that someone who is born in the United States and “subject to its jurisdiction,” who the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress define as a “citizen of the United States” at birth, or born out of the United States and any of its outlying possessions to one or two U.S. citizen parents, who Acts of Congress also define as a “citizen of the United States” at birth, are also necessarily “natural born citizens,” simply because, as you have clearly demonstrated through your Lincoln, Reagan, and Bush examples, a “natural born citizen” is also a “citizen of the United States” at birth under these post-Constitution adoption laws or by believing without demonstrating that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.” Your other error is in not understanding and correctly applying the concept that all “natural born citizens” are “citizens of the United States” at birth as that clause is defined by the Fourteenth Amendment and the applicable Act of Congress today, but not all “citizens of the United States” at birth are “natural born citizens.” Your other error is in maintaining without any historical and legal evidence that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”
Finally, your latest and greatest error, which leads you to make all the errors that I have listed above, is in not feeling bound by the Framers’ intent as gleaned from the original public meaning of a “natural born citizen,” which Minor informs may be found in the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution, which Minor also explained defined a “natural born citizen” as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Indeed, with Minor further explaining that at common law all people who did not satisfy that definition of a “natural born citizen” were “aliens or foreigners,” it is only by satisfying that one and only one definition that one may legitimately claim to be a “natural born citizen” and therefore, also meeting the age and residency requirements, eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military.

ajtelles said...

Excellent!!!

Mario, your March 3, 2014 at 11:53 AM response to Unknown a/k/a NotLinda, especially the first sentence of your last paragraph, would make the 'original birthers' happy to read that they knew what they meant for themselves in 1787 and also for their posterity of every generation, as long as America is free.

>> "Finally, your latest and greatest error,
>> which leads you to make all the errors that I have listed above,
>> is in not feeling bound by the Framers’ intent
>> as gleaned from the original public meaning of a “natural born citizen , ...."

Maybe Unknown a/k/a NotLinda should also read Rob Natelsons book The Original Constitution: What It Actually Said and Meant, in which Natelson takes the historical perspective. See his book at his site, Constitution.i2i.org.

Art
OriginalBirtherDocument.blogspot.com

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

ajtelles is in la-la land it seems. Human preference has nothing to do with natural result. Otherwise it would not be natural.

Your natural child is not someone defined by subjective preference.

A natural citizen was any natural child born of any citizen father.

The child is born with his nationality via inheritance of his father's political character.

Religion, morality, position, gender, -none of that and more was related to transmission of nationality via blood attachment to a parent with a settled nationality.

Like father, ...like son. A no-brainer.

Every natural citizen who was white, male, Protestant, educated, moral, and popular could serve as President.
All he would need is an American father, and to meet the age and residency requirements.

American husbands all had American wives.

American parents all had American children.

All American children born of American parents were eligible to be President, -and possibly electable if they were as described above.

Your mind can easily understand this but your subjective dogma rejects it because you embrace entirely what James Madison called "visionary principles" ungrounded in reality.

I speak of the fantasy that the words "natural born citizen" is a term of legal artifice and not common English.

If you are wrong, then what "Mario" believes about "citizenship" is totally false, fictional, fantasy.

Both obamunists and Donofi-puzzians embrace that fiction. I reject it because it is unnatural. It violates Natural Law.

The founders never even imagined it, since every Natural Law writing from Vattel to their era understood that natural nationality was by descent. From father to son.

Nature has no other added element.
That is pure unadulterated natural law.

The addition of native-birth is an unnatural contaminant.

Everyone born of American parents is an American, -not by law, -not by legal fiction, but by nature.

Don't you honor Nature and Nature's God?

It's all about the natural pattern of inherited character.

Think about it (a lot). If the Spirit of Truth is in you, logic will guide you.



MichaelN said...

Unknown said ....

"The very next paragraph in Minor notes that Congress was within its constitutional power to consider as natural born citizens children born out of the limits of the country to parents who were citizens."

Response:

Cite it!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

I of IV

You and I continue to disagree on what is the correct definition of a “natural born Citizen.”
I do not think you understand how constitutional law works. What you personally believe has no significance unless you can tie it to what the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and People (“originators”) maintained. You simply continue on and on with your belief, but you do not provide any historical or legal evidence which demonstrates that the originator agreed to what you submit to be the meaning of a "natural born citizen."

Relying upon natural law, you keep repeating that place of birth has no relevance to defining a “natural born citizen.” Relying strictly upon the citizenship of the father in your definition of a “natural born Citizen,” you continue to deny the relevancy of the place of birth and the citizenship of the mother. Yet the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) and the majority in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) both said that at common law place of birth was a critical element of being a citizen from the moment of birth. And even Emer de Vattel, who the originators heavily relied upon for ideas in constituting the new nation, said as follows in his The Law of Nations:

“It is asked whether the children born of citizens in a foreign country are citizens? The laws have decided this question in several countries, and their regulations must be followed. By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers, and enter into all their rights; the place of birth produces no change in this particular, and cannot of itself furnish any reason from taking from a child what nature has given him; I say ‘of itself,’ for civil or political laws may, for particular reasons, ordain otherwise. But I suppose that the father has not entirely quitted his country in order to settle elsewhere. If he has fixed his abode in a foreign country, he is become a member of another society, at least as a perpetual inhabitant; and his children will be members of it also.”

Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 215 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758).

Vattel explained the great distinction that exists between children born in a country and those born out of it. He said that nature alone gives to children born out of the country the same birth status enjoyed by those born in the country to citizen parents. But he concedes that governments have power to pass positive laws for “civil or political” reasons and thus altering the birth status of those foreign-born children.

Congress has put into practice what Vattel said. It has since the Naturalization Act of 1790 decided what the citizenship status will be of children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents. Hence, Congress has not left it strictly to the law of nature to determine their citizenship status. In the Naturalization Act of 1790, Congress said that such children “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” Then in the Naturalization Act of 1795, it changed its mind and said that such children “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Congress has left it at “citizen of the United States” to the present.

Vattel did not only address place of birth as a factor in citizenship. He also explained how important citizen parents were in the process of making citizens. Vattel said:

"Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalizes the children of a foreigner. Id. Section 214.

Here we can see that Vattel explained that a child born in a nation which was not that of the parents was born with alienage and needed to be naturalized. But he also recognized that not all nations followed the rule that prevailed in England that being born in its territory gave the child a birthright to be naturalized at birth.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Part II of IV

So, because of the uncertainty created by a child being born in a nation that is not the parents’ nation (the birth nation may accept jus soli or not and accept only jus sanguinis or the parents’ nation may accept only jus soli and reject jus sanguinis), Vattel gave the law of nations definition of a “natural born citizen” thus:

“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”

Id. at Section 212.

Vattel’s definition of a “natural born citizen” can be found in John Locke’s writings on the relationship between parent and child which he included in his The Second Treatise of Civil Government (1690). Like Vattel, Locke explained how a child during his minor years does not have the capacity to consent to anything including being a citizen and thus inherits the citizenship of his parents and upon reaching the age of majority is finally free to decide expressly or tacitly to which nation he will bind himself). Vattel’s definition contains both citizen parents (from natural law) and place of birth (from positive law) as necessary and sufficient conditions to make a “natural born citizen.” This definition gave universality to the meaning of a “natural born citizen” for all civilized nations of the world. It is by combining natural and positive law and thus providing that only a child born in the country to parents who are its citizens at the moment of the child’s birth are “natural-born citizens” that such universality is achieved. This is the only definition which allows a child to be born a “natural born citizen” without any interference from the positive and municipal laws of any nation (whether they are based on jus sanguinis or jus soli or both). It is only by satisfying this definition that a child is born with sole allegiance and citizenship to only one nation, a critical attribute the Framers required of future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military.

How do we know that Vattel’s definition of a “natural born citizen” was accepted by the Framers? The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor told us when it said:

“The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Id. at 167-68.

Continued

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

We can see that Minor said that the Constitution, which then already included the Fourteenth Amendment, did not define a “natural born citizen.” It said that the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution did. But in telling us what that common law provided, it did not give us the definition of a “natural-born subject” as found in the English common law, but rather paraphrased Vattel’s definition of a “natural born citizen.” So we can see that Vattel was the source of the Framers’ common law definition of a “natural born citizen” and not the English common law. Vattel said “the country,” as he was speaking about a universal country as existed in the law of nations. Minor said “a country” rather than “the country,” thus further emphasizing the universality of the definition as adopted by any specific nation such as the United States.

So, because of the uncertainty created by a child being born in a nation that is not the parents’ nation (the birth nation may accept jus soli or not and accept only jus sanguinis or the parents’ nation may accept only jus soli and reject jus sanguinis), Vattel gave the law of nations definition of a “natural born citizen” thus:

“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”

Id. at Section 212.

Continued

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

Vattel’s definition contains both citizen parents (from natural law) and place of birth (from positive law) as necessary and sufficient conditions to make a “natural born citizen.” This definition gave universality to a “natural born citizen” for all civilized nations of the world. It is by combining natural and positive law and thus providing that only a child born in the country to parents who are its citizens at the moment of the child’s birth are “natural-born citizens” that such universality is achieved. This is the only definition which allows a child to be born a “natural born citizen” without any interference from the positive and municipal laws of any nation (whether they are based on jus sanguinis or jus soli or both). It is only by satisfying this definition that a child is born with sole allegiance and citizenship to only one nation, a critical attribute the Framers required of future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military.

How do we know that Vattel’s definition of a “natural born citizen” was accepted by the Framers? The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor told us when it said:

“The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners. Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction, without reference to the citizenship of their parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient, for everything we have now to consider, that all children, born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction, are themselves citizens.”

Id. at 167-68.

We can see that Minor said that the Constitution, which then already included the Fourteenth Amendment, did not define a “natural born citizen.” It said that the common did. But in telling us what that common law provided, it did not define a “natural-born subject” as defined by the English common law. In fact, Minor even said that “there have been doubts” whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was a “citizen,”referring to whether such a child was a "citizen of the United States" at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment (a question that was answered in the affirmative by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)). Surely, no such doubts existed under the English common law, which was based on jus soli. Rather, what Minor did was paraphrase Vattel’s definition of a “natural born citizen.” So we can see that Vattel was the source of the Framers’ common law definition of a “natural born citizen” and not the English common law with its jus soli based subjectship/citizenship. Vattel said “the country,” as he was speaking about a universal country as existed in the law of nations. Minor said “a country” rather than “the country,” thus further emphasizing the universality of the definition as adopted by any specific nation such as the United States. We can also see that for Minor there was no other definition of a “natural born citizen,” for it said that at common law all people who did not meet that definition were “aliens or foreigners,” who could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying its laws of naturalization.

So, Mr. Nash, this is the state of all things that are “natural born citizen,” as confirmed by authoritative historical and binding legal sources. Until you can produce other such sources that support your personal belief as to what you imagine a “natural born citizen” to be, your belief is just that and no more.

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