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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 3

In case you didn't read this, from the majority opinion of the SCOTUS in the Wing Kim Ark court where, with regard to the 14th Amendment, SCOTUS speaks of ALL these children.....

"This court has no authority to interpolate a limitation that is neither expressed nor implied.

Our duty is to execute the law, not to make it.


The protection provided was not intended to be confined to those of any particular race or class, but to embrace equally all races, classes and conditions of men.

16 Wall. 128, 129.

Mr. Justice Miller, indeed, while discussing the causes which led to the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, made this remark:

The phrase, "subject to its jurisdiction" was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States."


The Chief Justice Horace Gray takes a swipe at Miller's remark, all because Miller used "Consul" instead of "ambassadors or public ministers", he tries to throw the baby out with the bath water and sweep under the carpet Miller's reference to the "children of"..."citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States."

Gray obviously had an ulterior motive, which resulted in his consideration of Wong's parents' domicile and business contribution to the US as a means to recognize allegiance sufficient to make a "citizen of the United States", Gray had to dig deep into Calvin's case, etc, but the best he could get away with was for Wong to be a "citizen of the United States", Gray was ham-strung by the Minor courts decision where it was held that the 14th Amendment, as a part of the US Constitution, does not say who shall be NBC.

Gray did this in the face...

"of how the term "jurisdiction" was to be interpreted and applied, the author of the citizenship clause, Sen. Jacob M. Howard (MI) to tell us exactly what it means and its intended scope as he introduced it to the United States Senate in 1866:

Mr. HOWARD: I now move to take up House joint resolution No. 127.

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration of the joint resolution (H.R. No. 127) proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

The first amendment is to section one, declaring that all "persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside. I do not propose to say anything on that subject except that the question of citizenship has been fully discussed in this body as not to need any further elucidation, in my opinion. This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.[1]"

(cont'd)

MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 3

In case you didn't read this, from the majority opinion of the SCOTUS in the Wing Kim Ark court where, with regard to the 14th Amendment, SCOTUS speaks of ALL these children.....

"This court has no authority to interpolate a limitation that is neither expressed nor implied.

Our duty is to execute the law, not to make it.


The protection provided was not intended to be confined to those of any particular race or class, but to embrace equally all races, classes and conditions of men.

16 Wall. 128, 129.

Mr. Justice Miller, indeed, while discussing the causes which led to the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, made this remark:

The phrase, "subject to its jurisdiction" was intended to exclude from its operation children of ministers, consuls, and citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States."


The Chief Justice Horace Gray takes a swipe at Miller's remark, all because Miller used "Consul" instead of "ambassadors or public ministers", he tries to throw the baby out with the bath water and sweep under the carpet Miller's reference to the "children of"..."citizens or subjects of foreign States born within the United States."

Gray obviously had an ulterior motive, which resulted in his consideration of Wong's parents' domicile and business contribution to the US as a means to recognize allegiance sufficient to make a "citizen of the United States", Gray had to dig deep into Calvin's case, etc, but the best he could get away with was for Wong to be a "citizen of the United States", Gray was ham-strung by the Minor courts decision where it was held that the 14th Amendment, as a part of the US Constitution, does not say who shall be NBC.

Gray did this in the face...

"of how the term "jurisdiction" was to be interpreted and applied, the author of the citizenship clause, Sen. Jacob M. Howard (MI) to tell us exactly what it means and its intended scope as he introduced it to the United States Senate in 1866:

Mr. HOWARD: I now move to take up House joint resolution No. 127.

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration of the joint resolution (H.R. No. 127) proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

The first amendment is to section one, declaring that all "persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside. I do not propose to say anything on that subject except that the question of citizenship has been fully discussed in this body as not to need any further elucidation, in my opinion. This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States. This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.[1]"

(cont'd)

MichaelN said...

Part 3 of 3

"It is clear the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment had no intention of freely giving away American citizenship to just anyone simply because they may have been born on American soil, something our courts have wrongfully assumed. But what exactly did "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" mean to the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment? Again, we are fortunate to have on record the highest authority to tell us, Sen. Lyman Trumbull, Chairman of the Judiciary Committee, author of the Thirteenth Amendment, and the one who inserted the phrase:

[T]he provision is, that 'all persons born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens.' That means 'subject to the complete jurisdiction thereof.' What do we mean by 'complete jurisdiction thereof?' Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.

Trumbull continues, "Can you sue a Navajo Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means. We make treaties with them, and therefore they are not subject to our jurisdiction. If they were, we wouldn't make treaties with them...It is only those persons who come completely within our jurisdiction, who are subject to our laws, that we think of making citizens; and there can be no objection to the proposition that such persons should be citizens.[2]

Sen. Howard concurs with Trumbull's construction:

Mr. HOWARD: I concur entirely with the honorable Senator from Illinois [Trumbull], in holding that the word "jurisdiction," as here employed, ought to be construed so as to imply a full and complete jurisdiction on the part of the United States, whether exercised by Congress, by the executive, or by the judicial department; that is to say, the same jurisdiction in extent and quality as applies to every citizen of the United States now.[3] "

http://www.14thamendment.us/articles/anchor_babies_unconstitutionality.html

Now if there was so much concern about the allegiance required to meet the standard to be a mere "citizen of the United States", then why is it such a problem for you that the parents' US citizenship status be considered an important quality in measuring allegiance for eligibility of POTUS as a NBC?

Here's the English common law again Kev.....

Calvin's case...

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:"

here's what the majority of SCOTUS said....

"The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law"

here's the result

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the citizen born:"

Don't you agree that Justice Horace Gray read this?

That's why the best Horace Gray could conjure up for Wong was "citizen of the United States", clearly and primarily relying on Wong's parents perceived and limited "allegiance" via long term domicile and business contribution to the US as formed a part of the holding of the WKA court.

Give it up Kev, you know it makes sense; Obama is a liar and a fraud, you are embarrassing your friends and family with your silly play on words garbage.

Unknown said...

we all know the common law of the Framers was law of nations and that is where the minor court got the quote about the natives or natural born citizens. obots never give you a straight answer about what common law in the nomenclature of the Framers the minor court was referring to. Male aliens residing in US were not subject to the draft in 1948? Jeez, i wonder why. Could it be they were not under US jurisdiction? I would say that their children could not have been drafted in the future either until they willingly became us citizens. What right would the US govt have drafting the child of a alien just because they happened to be born in a US hospital and were only here temporarily? There is more to being a citizen and natural born citizen than merely being born here.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"this court, speaking by Mr. Justice Story, held that the case must rest for its decision exclusively upon the principles of the common law, and treated it as unquestionable that, by that law, a child born in England of alien parents was a natural-born subject,"

What blind and self-deluded folly. By bastardizing the language, an alien-born subject magically becomes "natural born" or its equivalent.

Since as subjects there's no difference in their rights and duties, why the heck not just call them natural-born subjects also, and thus end discrimination against them?
Just because they aren't born of Englishmen but of aliens, is that good enough reason to not ignore the difference between them?

Most or all conceptual delusions begin with bastardizing language and rendering it false or ambiguous. That was true of alien-fathered "natural-born" subjects, and is true of the conflation of them with American-born natural citizens. Both are bastardized delusions of muddy ignorant thinking.

"Trumbull said, "Can you sue a Navajo Indian in court? Are they in any sense subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States? By no means."

That question reveals the degree of his isolation and elitism, -his confusion and ignorance of the subject on which he was opining.

The question he should have asked is: "Can you conscript a member of a sovereign Indian tribe into the U.S. Army? Can you force him to fight against his own people?"

Full jurisdiction isn't about civil law. "Suing"? What blindness. Full subjection is about nothing less than the authority of the American government to send its citizens to their death in battle.

If you've never experienced that authority then you've never experience sovereign power. It isn't about civilian life. It is about national survival and how it is only assured via military discipline and combat action.

Civilians don't know squat about such reality because it has never touched their sheltered secure lives. Yet it is the spine and foundation of nations, and the only means of assuring their survival.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

NEW...online at http://obama--nation.com

Blood Citizenship vs Legal Fiction
The Alpha & Omega of Belonging

2000 words

National membership comes either via a natural blood connection (resulting from inherited political nature) or from a legal, artificial connection resulting from the voluntary allowance of Law.

~All natural citizens are the same because they are citizens by blood, -blood citizens with a natural connection to their nation. THAT is the American legal fiction underlying the concept of
natural-ization.

~The position of Commander-in-Chief of the American military was set apart from the otherwise universal equality of all citizens for the purpose of insuring that he was a citizen-born American and not an alien-born American.

~How can foreigners produce a natural citizen with a natural connection to America? They can produce a “natural citizen” by the allowance of American socio-political policy and the doctrine of "citizenship equality" as seen in the legal fiction of natural-ization, including at-birth.
But they cannot produce a natural connection to America. Rather, their child’s connection is a fictional connection.

The connection of native-birth is merely an ethereal, intangible, transient connection. Blood is forever. Birth lasts but minutes and it’s location is irrelevant to experience.

In no species that has ever existed, including humans, has the location of a baby's exit from its mother's womb produced a natural connection to her, its father, or the group to which they belong. The only natural connection is a blood connection.
The children of alien immigrants were the equivalent of natural citizens from birth, but they were not natural citizens by birth, -by blood, -but instead by legal fiction.

They were not blood citizens but adopted citizens with foreign alienage.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

John Jay’s “strong check” applies to the Legislature, not to the Commander in Chief of the Military. Since the Framers provided that members of the Legislature need to be “Citizens of the United States” for 7 or 9 years, respectively, we can only conclude that that status was the “strong check” he asked for regarding the administration of government. Since he recommended that the Commander in Chief be a “natural born citizen,” we can only conclude a fortiori that that status provided for a stronger check than that for members of Congress which would end up being the strongest check. But even if “strong check” also applied to the Commander in Chief, it would necessarily relate to the meaning of a “natural born citizen” under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5.

“Natural born citizen” applies only to the singular and all-powerful civil and military offices of the President and Commander in Chief of the Military. The Commander in Chief as the commander of the military is given the ultimate responsibility for not only protecting but also preserving the constitutional republic and its people. Applying only to those highly sensitive singular offices, the “natural born citizen” clause is therefore a national security clause. In the interest of national security, it must be construed strictly in order to advance the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ purpose of requiring that future Presidents and Commanders of the Military be “natural born citizens.” Allowing all “born citizens,” regardless of being born subject to foreign powers, is a liberal construction. Such a construction does not provide for a strong enough check of foreign and monarchical influence. Rather, requiring only “born citizen” who are not born subject to any foreign power is a strict interpretation which satisfies the purpose of requiring the President and Commander of the Military to be a “natural born citizen.” Such an interpretation provides for the strongest check on such influence. Arguing that the clause has some loose or undefined meaning so as to allow even persons born subject to a foreign power does not satisfy Jay’s request for that “strong check” and is contrary to the policy goals of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers. Such a liberal interpretation is contrary to our national interest and sheer folly.

So under both scenarios (whether Jay’s strong check applied only to the Legislature or also to the Commander), Jay’s “strong check” as it applied to the Commander provides for a level of allegiance that is higher than that required of members of Congress. In either case, the allegiance required of the Commander in Chief is stronger than that required of members of Congress. That “strong check” for the Commander is therefore actually the strongest check on foreign and monarchical influence.

MichaelN said...

@ Stranger

In the context of eligibility for the office of POTUS, the Framers considered BOTH native-birth in US AND parents' status as US citizens as essential elements in weighing allegiance.

Place of birth accounts for a degree of allegiance.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

It is not correct to say that a “citizen” or a “citizen of the United States” is excluded from being a “natural born citizen” and therefore President. As we have seen, in order for a person to be a “natural born citizen,” he or she must satisfy the constitutional national common law definition of the clause which is a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. This definition was incorporated into the Constitution as the definition of an Article II “natural born citizen.” This definition has never been changed by any constitutional amendment or U.S. Supreme Court. Any “citizen” or “citizen of the United States,” who satisfies this common law definition, is a “natural born citizen,” and meeting the minimum of 35-years of age and 14-year residency requirements, is eligible to be President.

It is also not correct to say that all “citizens of the United States” “at” birth are “natural born citizens.” We have seen that positive laws such as the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress make “citizens of the United States” “at” birth. But persons who must rely strictly upon the Fourteenth Amendment or an Act of Congress for that “at” birth status, while being granted by these positive laws the status of a “citizen of the United States” “at” birth, do not also satisfy the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen.” Not satisfying that constitutional definition, they therefore are not and cannot be “natural born citizens.”

Thus, what is correct to say is that all “citizens” or “citizens of the United States,” who satisfy the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” which is a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth, are “natural born citizens,” and satisfying the other presidential eligibility requirements of Article II, are eligible to be President. It is also correct to say that all “citizens” or “citizens of the United States,” whether “at” birth or after birth, who do not satisfy that constitutional national common law definition of the clause, are excluded from being “natural born citizens” and therefore eligible to be President. This means that any person, not satisfying the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen” and who must rely upon the Fourteenth Amendment or an Act of Congress for the status of a “citizen of the United States” “at” birth, or upon an Act of Congress or treaty for the status of a “citizen of the United States” after birth, is excluded from being a “natural born citizen” and President.

MichaelN said...

From the opinion of the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark.....

"The same principle on which such children are held by us to be citizens of the United States, and to be subject to duties to this country, applies to the children of American fathers born without the jurisdiction of the United States, and entitles the country within whose jurisdiction they are born to claim them as citizen and to subject them to duties to it.

Such children are born to a double character: the citizenship of the father is that of the child so far as the laws of the country of which the father is a citizen are concerned, and within the jurisdiction of that country; but the child, from the circumstances of his birth, may acquire rights and owes another fealty besides that which attaches to the father."


What did the English common law have to say on those who are born to a "double character"?

Let's see.....

Lord Coke - Calvin's case...

"...and so in case of an alien born, you must of necessity have two several ligeances to two several persons."

Robert said...

Slartibartfast,

Although I didn’t mention Monty Python, I think he’s a good fit for your arguments and I was please that Mario referenced him. My illustration is how I see your arguments. If it doesn’t fit what you intend to say, then perhaps you should review your arguments. So far you have said nothing that can dissuade anyone of even minimal intelligence and objectivity from the abundantly clear evidence that shows that our founders understood a “natural born citizen” to be one born in the country to citizen parents and that this understanding remained clear through the unanimous consent of the Supreme Court in Minor, through all other related SC cases, through the 14th Amendment, through the numerous recent attempts to change our Constitution to allow a fraud and foreigner like Mr. Obama to assume the office of the President, and even through SR511 which received unanimous consent of our Senate and of which Mr. Obama was a sponsor.

While the founders were certainly versed in British Law it’s quite certain that they didn’t go there to define “natural born citizen”. British Law deals with royalty and subjects – not citizens. (Like buffaloes, they didn’t have citizens.) Instead, the founders turned to natural law and the Law of Nations (of which Vattel was their preferred reference). Here they found clarity of comparison between the terms “subject” and “citizen” and reinforcement for their understanding that a “natural born citizen”, one born in the country to citizen parents, would provide the best long term check against the infiltration of foreign influence (like Mr. Obama) into the office of the President and CIC. They clearly knew that the terms “citizen” and “subject” were as different as “rider” and “horse” and they no longer wanted to be the King’s horses. For the short term, by insertion of the Grandfather Clause since there were no “natural born citizens” to be had, they had to rely more heavily on the age and residency requirements and on the public’s knowledge of who was loyal to the revolution and who wasn’t than on the deeper ties of citizenship that would not yet be fully developed in this new nation. (I would bet that, except for the obvious problems of practicality, they would have preferred to require more than one generation of natural born citizenship and I would suggest that we consider this in the future.) Incidentally, this knowledge alone would have prevented Obama from having even the slightest chance of ever being POTUS. Traitors to the cause were not very popular.

And, speaking of straw men: How can you whine about straw men when you are defending the poster boy of all straw men?
• You ignore Mr. Obama’s stipulation that he was born under British jurisdiction. See also: British Nationality Act.
• You ignore his forged birth certificates.
• You ignore the many previous claims, including his own, that he was born in Kenya.
• You ignore that no hospital in Hawaii has any record of either him or his mother ever having been admitted and that no one in Hawaii has ever produced an actual, legal document of Mr. Obama’s birth. (Yet, you accept as Gospel newspaper accounts that reference an address at which he never lived.)
• You ignore his illegally gotten social security number.
• You ignore his altered selective service registration and passport.
• You don’t even want to look at his college transcripts that probably show that he enrolled as a foreign student.
• (Speaking of allegiance) You ignore his completely anti-American upbringing and total lack of respect for our constitution and rule of law.
• You present an argument that would more appropriately be used to prove that Obama is first and foremost a “natural born SUBJECT” of Great Britain/Kenya and not a “natural born CITIZEN” of the USA while claiming it means the opposite.

Monty Python would have a heyday with you guys. With this topic alone you might be good for an entire season. Hey, perhaps he’ll give you a cameo. Just don’t let him talk you into wearing the wardrobe you’ve purchased for Mr. Obama.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

From the opinion of the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark.....

"The same principle on which such children are held by us to be citizens of the United States, and to be subject to duties to this country, applies to the children of American fathers born without the jurisdiction of the United States, and entitles the country within whose jurisdiction they are born to claim them as citizen and to subject them to duties to it."

What a absolute idiot! Such a view is totally poisonous and treasonous to American principles. He understood nothing about the foundations of the nation and principles of Natural Rights.

He blindly conflated the power and authority of monarchical dictators over all souls born within and under their jurisdiction with the unalienable freedom of free men who united for common defense, order and prosperity on the basis of equality and the sovereignty of We_the_People, -NOT the government.
We are national members not because of the government power and force to control and own us like kings would but because we are born into a common brotherhood of free men and women who own the government. We are not its slaves. It is our servant. It serves us! We are the sovereigns.

That fool had it bass-ackwards! He stupidly believed that the king's jus soli subjection over alien-fathered native-born subjects transferred to American children born of and by Americans.
"The same principle..." NOT the same principle! Jus sanguinis is NOT jus soli. Citizens are NOT serfs and subjects. Sovereignty is NOT vested in the government but in the PEOPLE and they pass their national membership automatically to their children regardless of where born.

America recognizes no right of any government to claim its children as their own simply on the basis of place of birth. No government wields political jurisdiction over minors and requires any duties of them.

Only adults are subject and they have the right to choose or reject their native-birth bestowed citizenship (as Ted Cruz is doing).

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

Well, you were doing fine with a classic "Gish Gallop" (making too many errors for you opponent to possibly address them all), but then you stumbled by forgetting to trim the part that totally contradicts your argument when you went to cherry pick. Also, as an alien attempting to foment sedition, you should probably lay off the "treason" talk. Just sayin'...

Michael N quoting from WKA and my comments:

"The same principle on which such children are held by us to be citizens of the United States, and to be subject to duties to this country, applies to the children of American fathers born without the jurisdiction of the United States, and entitles the country within whose jurisdiction they are born to claim them as citizen and to subject them to duties to it."

In other words, the principle by which Mr. Wong was held to be a US citizen was the same principle by which Calvin was held to be a natural born subject of the king, namely the principle of jus soli---a principle by which even an alien temporarily sojourning in the land was subject to the jurisdiction and had sufficient "ligeantia and obedientia" (even though it was temporary and local) to produce natural born issue. Ergo, President Obama, by operation of this principle is held to be a natural born citizen of the United States according to the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark.

"Such children are born to a double character: the citizenship of the father is that of the child so far as the laws of the country of which the father is a citizen are concerned, and within the jurisdiction of that country; but the child, from the circumstances of his birth, may acquire rights and owes another fealty besides that which attaches to the father."

Right. So they're saying that President Obama acquired rights and owes another fealty besides the British fealty that attached to Barack Obama Sr.---the rights and fealty of a natural born citizen of the United States. Remember, it's only unsupported birther claims that say a person can't be a natural born citizen/subject of more than one country (Rafael Cruz is apparently a natural born citizen of three countries: the US, Canada and Cuba)---claims that are patently false in light of people like Rafael or Spiro Agnew who are unquestionably natural born citizens of multiple nations. The fact is that no foreign citizenship can effect a person's US citizenship status at birth in any way---the very notion is absurd.

Whatever else President Obama is (and nearly all of the things people like you call him are ludicrous on their face), he has been Constitutionally vetted (in the same manner as all of his predecessors) and lawfully assumed the office of President of the United States. Twice. As for my friends and family being embarrassed, there's nothing I've written here that I'm in any way ashamed of and, in fact, my comments here prompted a very well respected friend to email me, although I probably should feel some shame for the amount of time I waste commenting about the Quixotic birther quest. On the other hand, there is no end of shameful and dishonest things you have said in your years of birfing.

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

Slartybartfast

Michael N quoting from WKA and my comments:

"The same principle on which such children are held by us to be citizens of the United States, and to be subject to duties to this country, applies to the children of American fathers born without the jurisdiction of the United States, and entitles the country within whose jurisdiction they are born to claim them as citizen and to subject them to duties to it."

Response:

The "same principle" was a degree of allegiance, but not sufficient allegiance to make "natural born Citizen", that's why Wong Kim Ark only got to be a "citizen of the United States" and NOT "natural born Citizen"..... silly you.

Both children were not born in US, were they? ..... so native-birth can't be the "same principle".

The latter part of the quote tells that those children who are born away from their US citizen father's country, may be claimed by that country of birth as a citizen.

The point is, that they have dual allegiance, which is not a high enough allegiance to make "natural born Citizen", hence the change in the 1795 naturalization act from the wording of the 1790 act.

The English accepted friendly alien visitors as subjects without naturalization.

The problem you have is that UNLIKE the English, the US DOES NOT ACCEPT as CITIZENS (analogous with "subject") the friendly alien visitors...... they must naturalize to be accepted, although what the SCOTUS per Horace Gray conjured-up from the English model was that an alien visiting the US had some degree of allegiance, but not as much as an existing US citizen.

That's why Gray gave Wong "citizen of the United States" and NOT NBC.

Read the opinion, it was Wong's alien parents who had long-term domicile and valued business contributions to the US which got Wong over the line, when Gray fitted him with "and subject to the jurisdiction" he bent the meaning and intention of the 14th Amendment in defiance of what the Framers clearly intended the 14th to mean.

Now it has been bent out of shape to the extreme where you have people skipping over the border and dropping kids in a one hour stay, and bent idiots who have been led down this path of errors deem them kids as "citizens of the United States".

It might be reasonable for the children of aliens who have had some considerable length of domicile, residence and business or labour productivity in the US (like Wong's parents) to be considered as "citizens of the United States", but that argument still rages in it's own right with regard to "citizen" (not NBC) and it's still yet to be cleared up.

As it stands, allegiance is measured taking into account both place of birth and parents' citizenship.
(cont'd)

MichaelN said...

Part 2 of 2

Some people are born US citizens, due to birth in US and a weak degree of allegiance as in the case of alien parents, and some are born US citizens due only to a stronger allegiance of US citizen parents....... BOTH are lacking the complete allegiance required to be "natural born Citizens" and eligible for the office of POTUS.

That's why the 1790 act was changed in the 1795 act, and that is also why Wong only got "citizen" and NOT NBC; even after all the hoo har about the English common law and allegiance and natural born this and that, Wong was ruled based on the "SINGLE QUESTION" to be a "citizen of the United States" per the 14th Amendment, which DOES NOT SAY WHO SHALL BE NATURAL BORN CITIZENS, and based on the weak allegiance of his alien parents.

A "natural born Citizen" of the US one with highest allegiance due by being born in the land of his parents' US citizenship.

It's really simple stuff.

But you already know all this Kev, it has been shown to you umpteen times, but you still persist in making a fool of yourself.

Yes I know you try to draw people out, so you might seize upon some minor thing they say, a word, an ambiguity or whatever, and play your silly game with words.

The fact remains, that the English common law rule deemed alien visitors as subjects/citizens (analogous right?) and as such, their native-born children were "called" "natural born subjects", not as a qualifier for high office, but to enjoy inheritance rights, etc like the rest of the common folk and BECAUSE they were considered as subjects, then their native-born children were subjects.

Lord Coke per Calvin's case, made it abundantly clear that native-birth DID NOT SUFFICE to make a natural born subject and that for a native-born to be a natural born subject, he had to be "born under the ligeance of a subject", or else he was not a subject at all, but rather an alien-born.

Given the SCOTUS holding in the Wong court, that "subject" and "citizen" were analogous, then by the common law, a native-born child in US, must be "born under the ligeance" of a US citizen to be a "natural born Citizen".

MichaelN said...

Slartybartfast said ....

"The fact is that no foreign citizenship can effect a person's US citizenship status at birth in any way---the very notion is absurd."

Reply:

It doesn't appear to be absurd to the English common law, which YOU say must be observed and be our guidance....

Coke - Calvin's case...

"so in case of an alien born, you must of necessity have two several ligeances to two several persons."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

Some badly informed people contend that any person who is a citizen at birth is a “natural born citizen.” This position is so easy to refute.

First, the clause is “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.” If the Framers had wanted any born citizen to be eligible to be President, they would have written “born Citizen,” rather than “natural born Citizen.”

Second, we have incontrovertible evidence from the Founding that shows this position to be wrong. Alexander Hamilton had wanted for the future a born citizen to be the standard for the President. But the Framers agreed on “natural born citizen.”

Third, the Framers wanted to assure that future Presidents and Commanders of the Military were born not subject to any foreign power and therefore with sole and absolute allegiance (legal, political, and military) to the United States. Just requiring the President and Commander to be a born citizen would not have assured such a level of allegiance, for under the various positive and municipal laws of nations, children can be born citizens of and therefore owe allegiance from birth to more than one nation. On the contrary, under the correct definition of a “natural born citizen,” under American law a child born in the United States to parents who were its U.S. “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is born with sole and absolute allegiance to the United States.

Fourth, the Naturalization Acts of 1790 treated a child who it considered a born citizen (applying only to children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents) to be “considered as a natural born citizen.” So from this act we can see that even though that child was treated as a born citizen, the most Congress could do was say that he/she “shall be considered as a natural born citizen.” The Naturalization Act of 1795, which repealed that of 1790, treated a child who it considered a born citizen (again applying only to children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents) to be “considered as a citizen of the United States.” So from the 1795 Act we can see that not only was that born citizen being naturalized at birth (he/she was “considered as a citizen of the United States” from the time of his/her birth), but the status that Congress gave to him/her was that of a “citizen of the United States,” and not that of a “natural born citizen.”

Fifth, the Fourteenth Amendment also makes born citizens. But what is most telling is that it calls them “citizens of the United States,” not “natural born citizens.”

Sixth, U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) held that Wong was a born citizen. It held that he was a “citizen of the United States” from the time of his birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. It did not hold that he satisfied Minor's common law definition of a "natural born citizen" and therefore also a “natural born citizen.”

Seventh, Wong Kim Ark said that a person who is born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents is a born citizen, but only by the grace of a naturalization act of Congress. Accord Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (both majority and dissents). It is a contradiction to say that a “naturalized” “citizen of the United States” could be a “natural born citizen.”

Eighth, various naturalization Acts of Congress today make persons born citizens. But they, like the Fourteenth Amendment, call them “citizens of the United States,” not “natural born citizens.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

In short, there is no legal basis for the position that any person who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.” There is no historical or legal evidence that the mechanism for being a “natural born citizen” is just being born a citizen. Again, not only does such a statement not provide any means by which one is supposed to be made a born citizen, but there is also no legal basis for such a position. Such a definition would also not achieve the Framers’ policy goals for requiring the President and Commander to be a “natural born citizen,” the utmost security and safety for the nation so as to assure its preservation and survival.

On the other hand, there is plenty of historical and legal evidence that a “natural born citizen” is a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens.” Minor v. Happersett (1898); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). This definition contains the one and only mechanism to be satisfied in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.”

Unknown said...

a honest person will change his opinion to suit the facts and obots will change the facts to suit their opinions/lies

Slartibartfast said...



Robert said:

And, speaking of straw men: How can you whine about straw men when you are defending the poster boy of all straw men?

You misunderstand the term "straw man". It refers to misrepresenting an opponent's argument in order to make it easier to refute. Most, if not all, birthers rely heavily on straw man arguments and, in fact, your list below is nothing but a collection of straw man attacks on President Obama.

• You ignore Mr. Obama’s stipulation that he was born under British jurisdiction. See also: British Nationality Act.

For good reason: it is irrelevant to his US citizenship status. As I pointed out above with examples such as Rafael Cruz and Spiro Agnew, it is possible to be a natural born citizen of multiple nations. While President Obama was a natural born British subject (and later became a Kenyan), there is no indication that he ever took any affirmative steps to claim this citizenship (let alone obtain a Kenyan passport), so this citizenship would have expired when he reached the age of majority.

• You ignore his forged birth certificates.

What forged birth certificates? President Obama has released two birth certificates (one of which was released before the birther movement even began) and the Hawai'i Department of Health (which, according to the US Constitution, is the ultimate authority as to who was born in Hawai'i) has verified the validity of the information and even posted a link to the online images at WhiteHouse.gov. There is sufficient evidence that any US court up to and including the SCOTUS would be forced to conclude that President Obama was born in Hawai'i. Frankly, the notion that any of the images of President Obama's birth certificates are in any manner "forged" is idiotic.

• You ignore the many previous claims, including his own, that he was born in Kenya.

There are no credible claims that he was born in Kenya, least of all ones he made himself (excepting obviously tongue-in-cheek comments made at the birthers' expense). If you are referring to the misstatement in the bio from his publisher, the employee who wrote it admitted she had made a mistake and every other claim has been completely debunked. Not to mention that it would have been logistically impossible for Dr. Dunham to have traveled to Kenya and back by herself (Barack Obama Sr. was in Hawai'i in the summer of 1961). She had neither the means, motive, nor opportunity for such a trip and there is no evidence of any sort that she left the country in 1961, let alone made the arduous trip to Kenya without leaving any sort of paper trail whatsoever.


• You ignore that no hospital in Hawaii has any record of either him or his mother ever having been admitted and that no one in Hawaii has ever produced an actual, legal document of Mr. Obama’s birth. (Yet, you accept as Gospel newspaper accounts that reference an address at which he never lived.)


The Hawai'i DoH has verified the facts of President Obama's birth, which, according to the Constitution which you claim to hold dear, is sufficient to prove he was born in Hawai'i in any US courtroom. No hospital is allowed to release patient records for ANYONE by law, however Kapiolani hospital used a letter from President Obama in which he claimed he was born there as part of their fundraising materials---it can still be viewed on their website. Furthermore, people have called the hospital and they have verified that President Obama was born there.


Continued...

Slartibartfast said...

...

• You ignore his illegally gotten social security number.

There is no evidence that President Obama's SSN is anything other than the one he legally obtained before starting work at Baskin Robbins. The "Connecticut" number is most likely explained by a transposition of a "0" and a "9" in the Hawai'ian zip code in which the president resided at the time, but, in any case, assigning certain SSNs corresponding to different states was a discontinued system to help with the manual filing of documents which the SSA itself says cannot be relied on. Due to the number being plastered all over the internet (primarily by Orly Taitz incompetence at following court rules regarding redaction), it is highly likely that the president has been assigned a new number, resulting in, for instance, the failure of the checks by birthers misusing e-verify.

• You ignore his altered selective service registration and passport.

The only passport of President Obama's that has been seen is his diplomatic passport, so your claim of an "altered" passport is completely unsupported nonsense. There is, however, a crime that has been committed regarding his selective service registration---by the person who requested it under false pretenses (Hollister, I believe his name was). He impersonated President Obama in order to have the document mailed to his address---wouldn't that be fraud? The document itself, however, show absolutely no evidence of any alteration nor anything suspicious to unbiased and competent forensic analysts.

• You don’t even want to look at his college transcripts that probably show that he enrolled as a foreign student.

Again, these are legally protected records. No US President or Presidential candidate has released their college transcripts. Ever. Why do you consider it unusual that President Obama would do the same as all of his predecessors? There is no reason why President Obama would have enrolled as a foreign student (and we know that he could prove his US citizenship)---especially since doing so would have significantly limited the amount of financial aid available to him. And once more you make ridiculous allegations without a shred of evidence to back them up.

• (Speaking of allegiance) You ignore his completely anti-American upbringing and total lack of respect for our constitution and rule of law.

I would argue that his upbringing was quintessentially American---where but America could President Obama's story have happened? Your narrow-minded and bigoted views of what is American is far more contrary to the spirit of the Founders than anything President Obama has ever done.

• You present an argument that would more appropriately be used to prove that Obama is first and foremost a “natural born SUBJECT” of Great Britain/Kenya and not a “natural born CITIZEN” of the USA while claiming it means the opposite.

Not true---President Obama was not a natural born subject of Great Britain by the argument I'm making (i.e. Calvin's case), but rather he was a natural born subject according to a later statute (and any citizenship he may have been entitled to claim has long since expired). On the other hand, he is a natural born citizen of the United States via the principle of
jus soli, as defined in Calvin's case and confirmed by no less an authority than James Madison to be the foundational principle of US citizenship.


Straw man argument are invariably a sign of ignorance or dishonesty---they happen when someone doesn't know what the truth is or doesn't care. What's your excuse for all of the false accusations you made against President Obama?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

All the circumstantial evidence that you produce regarding de facto President Obama’s place of birth is noted.

But you cannot deny that there exists a significant amount of circumstantial evidence that Obama was not born in the United States. For example (this list is not exhaustive), he himself held himself out to the public for many years as having been born in Kenya. African Newspapers prior to his campaign stated that he was born in Kenya. Obama also complained in his Dreams from My Father that his mother was not able to so easily prove his birth circumstances for inheritance purposes.

"I was just thinking about how life is so strange. You know, as soon as the Old Man died, the lawyers contacted all those who might have a claim to the inheritance. Unlike my mum, RUTH HAS all the documents needed to prove who Mark's father was." ["the Old Man" was Barack Obama Sr, "my mum" was Stanley Ann Dunham, "Ruth" was Ruth Nidesand, B, was Obama Sr's 3rd 2nd U.S. citizen wife who bore him 2 children, in Africa, and "Mark" was B.O. Jr.'s half-brother, son of Sr. and Ruth.] p. 345.

Also from Dreams from My Father:

“I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school. It’s a short piece, with a photograph of him. No mention is made of my mother or me, and I’m left to wonder whether the omission was intentional on my father’s part, in anticipation of his long departure. Perhaps the reporter failed to ask personal questions, intimidated by my father’s imperious manner; or perhaps it was an editorial decision, not part of the simple story that they were looking for. I wonder, too, whether the omission caused a fight between my parents.” p. 26.

But why would Obama complain about his mother not having the needed paperwork to prove that he was Obama’s Sr.’s son if Obama supposedly had as early as high school as he stated his own birth certificate which would have had his father’s name on it? Also, if he had his birth certificate since at least in high school, why did he have to initially get just a Certification of Live Birth (original or certified copy never produced in court) and then later the Certificate of Birth (also original or certified copy never produced in court) with all that fanfare? Why did he not tell the American people that he had his birth certificate when he was younger, but that he had lost it, if that was the case?

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

There does not exist in the public record one contemporaneous medical document showing that either Ann Dunham and/or Barack Obama were patients at Kapiolani Hospital in August 1961.

The courts have not been willing to grant to any plaintiff any discovery which would shed much needed light on this issue.

Additionally, Obama did not prove with any competent evidence in one of the many courts of law in which he was challenged on the issue of his place of birth where he was born or who he even is. Courts like those in New Jersey (ALJ Masin), Georgia (J. Malihi), Illinois, and Arizona have ruled (although erroneously) that Obama is a “natural born citizen” based on their finding that he was born in the United States and that the parents’ citizenship is not relevant. The Indiana Ankeny court even dismissed plaintiff’s complaint without any finding that Obama was born in the United States and that he is a “natural born citizen.” ALJ Masin even confirmed and Obama’s lawyer concede on the record that there was no evidence of Obama’s place of birth before the court, including that the 2011 online birth certificate was not evidence (ruling that such evidence was not relevant because even Mickey Mouse can run for President), but yet ALJ Masin found Obama to be a “natural born citizen” because as the court concluded he was born in the U.S. Not being presented by Obama with any birth certificate, not one court ruled that any of Obama’s birth certificates were validly established and binding upon the court because of the Full and Faith and Credit clause of the Constitution. So, those courts made those findings or rulings without a shred of evidence before them demonstrating that Obama was born in the U.S. Any rational and honest person would give significance to this lack of evidence and request more from Obama. So, we will just have to keep the place of birth issue an open one with the realization that Obama has not yet conclusively proven where he was born.

But in any event, place of birth is only one of the necessary factors to be satisfied in order to be a “natural born citizen.” The other necessary factor is birth to U.S. citizen parents. Additionally, “natural born citizen” status can only be inherited (from one’s U.S. citizen parents) and acquired (from birth in the United States or its jurisdictional equivalent) at the time of one’s birth. One cannot gain such a status by actions after birth. While Obama can skirt the place of birth issue, he cannot get around the birth to citizen parents requirement. The record is clear that Obama was born to a non-U.S. citizen father. He, like Ted Cruz, therefore is not nor can he be a “natural born citizen,” regardless of where he may have been born or what actions he may have taken after his birth.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

You know full well that hospital patient information is not public and therefore the fact that there aren't any hospital records of President Obama's birth available to the public is not just completely normal, but required by law.

As for the courts, I believe that a certified copy of the President's birth certificate (which, in and of itself, is prima facie evidence of birth in Hawai'i) along with a letter from the Hawai'i DoH verifying its authenticity has been filed in the case before Judge Wingate in Mississippi (Orly's RICO case*). Do you understand what sort of evidence would be necessary for Judge Wingate to order discovery on the Hawai'i DoH vaults? I don't think that anything short of extremely credible evidence of fraud on the part of the Hawai'i DoH would be sufficient, how about you?

Honestly, I don't understand why Vattel birthers such as yourself pay lip service to the theory that President Obama's birth documents are somehow forged since the arguments tend to contradict each other. If citizen parents were required, then why would President Obama forge documents that weren't sufficient to make him eligible?

If there were a birther theory that was correct, then you would have no problem coming to a consensus regarding what happened, what crimes were committed and when, and what the appropriate remedy was. Instead, pretty much the only thing that all birthers can agree on is that they want President Obama out of office.

Which makes me think that birtherism is all about President Obama rather than all about the Constitution as you claim.


* Just out of curiosity Mario, do you think that Ms. Taitz has the expertise and resources necessary to litigate a RICO case?

Slartibartfast said...

Unknown,

I've never called Mr. Nash a liar either. I think he sincerely believes his nonsense (and I have shown many of his arguments to be nothing but nonsense---as have Mario and MichaelN), but I agree that what he writes suggests that he despises many quintessential American values (he is also extremely inept at making analogies, but he probably can't help that given his lack of critical thinking ability).

Also, when I said I would "pay to see" birthers arguing the merits of their case in court, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek, but completely earnest about wishing them the chance to have their day in court. This isn't baiting anyone into "real-world demise", it is about teaching birthers the consequences of their actions. If they make false accusations and harm people by making them defend themselves from frivolous lawsuits, then they deserve any sanctions they incur by doing so and if they make false accusations that they are unwilling to stand behind in court, that should be made clear too. Why hasn't Mario filed any birther litigation for a long while? Why isn't he laying the groundwork for a ballot challenge against Rafael Cruz in 2016?

To me, the more birthers are forced to explain why they wont take their cases to court or forced to defend their arguments on their merits in court, the clearer it becomes that their crusade is not about the Constitution but about their personal animus against President Obama.

Unknown said...

nothing is stopping barry from showing his legit hospital birth or college records if he has any so that is a lame argument. His fake social was issued by CT around 1977 while he was living in hawaii and failed e verify. Orly wants to see the original application for that number and is of course getting the runaround just like arpiao has on barrys forged draft card and shady looking BC image. This is biggest scam in US history and all americans should be concerned that congress and the corporate media ignore this. Masin would not even let marios expert testify that barrys BC was a fake. After listening to masin, who doubled as barry's lawyer and a on the payroll al capone judge, for the first few minues i could tell mario had no chance

Slartibartfast said...

leo derosia,

The history of birtherism is a revolving door of lies. Starting with the incompetent and immediately debunked "analyses" of Techdude and Polarik, birthers have been caught repeating outright falsehoods time and time again without ever so much as acknowledging their dishonesty. In other words, you shouldn't be hurling rocks from your glass house at the (non-existant) mote in our eyes until you take the gigantic beam out of your own eye.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slartibartfast said...

You know full well that hospital patient information is not public and therefore the fact that there aren't any hospital records of President Obama's birth available to the public..."

Are you really that stupid or just accomplished at pretense and obfuscation? Mario did not mention what you are taking about. Medical Records are about patient diagnosis and treatment, they are NOT about patient admissions or visits.
He said there is no public record of Ann Dunham ever having setting foot inside any Hawaiian hospital in the 1960s. Hospital admission records are NOT patient medical records nor are they off-limits to the public. Are library visits private information? How about taxi rides or calls to the fire dept.?
No doubt there's a curtain of privacy for private hospitals, but public hospitals? Prove that that is the case.

"I believe that a certified copy of the President's birth certificate (which, in and of itself, is prima facie evidence of birth in Hawai'i) along with a letter from the Hawai'i DoH verifying its authenticity has been filed in the case before Judge Wingate in Mississippi"


Again, with the pretending to be stupid. You know full well that no one on earth has seen and verified that a genuine copy of a HDoH birth certificate exists.
And why would one be needed when every adult professional already has one and had it for perhaps dozens of years? Where is that copy? What adult US citizen only requests a copy of his BC when he's running for President and not before?
How did Obama manage to live an adult professional life without a birth certificate before 2008? Oh... I know! He used his Indonesian passport as ID!

I just came across in my files a copy of a data pull by an investigator using non-public data-bases and it returned a hit for Barak Soetoro with a New York address which happened to be the same as Columbia U. Gee, he couldn't have been living as a foreign student could he?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Starti says...
" If citizen parents were required, then why would President Obama forge documents that weren't sufficient to make him eligible?"

You already know the answer to your own question, so why ask it? You know full well that everyone is ignorant and has no clue that place of birth has nothing to do with being a natural citizen. Believing that it does and qualifies one to be President (see O'Reilly, Hannity, Coulter, Huckabee, etc.) is a very, very obvious reason to forge a fake birth certificate and then get your subservient minions in the HDoH to produce what everyone will assume makes one presidency eligible.
A fourth grader can figure that out, -don't try to convince us that you can't. You fake.

"~along with a letter from the Hawai'i DoH verifying its authenticity..."

HA! Nothing yet has come out of that quack factory that has verified anything because nothing yet has been signed by anyone. No court in the world accepts unsigned documents, and yet that is all that Hawaii ever proffers. Why? Because it protects them from being charged with a felony since they can claim that they didn't send the letter in their name and no one can prove that they did since it is not signed nor stamped with the dept. seal which they control.
It doesn't take a genius to figure out such elementary facts. So what the heck is wrong with your short-circuited brain?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

now available at http://obama--nation.com

~WHAT THE SUPREME COURT DOESN'T KNOW BUT SHOULD; ORIGINS OF CITIZENSHIP

~...How can foreigners become natural citizens? By natural-ization. They are made natural, -or natural-ized; -not citizen-ized.

By our widely unknown fundamental American Natural Rights philosophy, they are not made into a member of a second class of citizens but are adopted into the only class of citizens existing, -which is the natural class.
And then the fact of their adoption is essentially buried and banished from thought and recognition. They are accepted as new members of the national family as though they were and are such from-&-by birth.

That view of them is a pretense of egalitarian democracy. [egalitarian; e·gal·i·tar·i·an, adjective:

1. of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities. ~ "a fairer, more egalitarian society"

Egalitarian democracy embraces, practices and follows a blind-folded view of the nature of all Americans. By its fiction of law all Americans are not just brothers by name, or by adoption, but by blood. They are blood brothers and blood citizens.

In a civic-political sense they are all identical twins or clones. Those who were born as foreigners via birth to foreigners have been separated from that past and that fact and have become new natural citizens like their native brethren.

That legal fiction is what protects their equality and equal treatment under the law. By it there is only one form of citizenship [natural citizenship] and only one form of American, not two.

If there were two, then one of them (the original, native, citizen-born members of the nation) would be seen as having greater natural rights than those made into citizens though having been born of alien outsiders or even born as aliens.

Not all nations embrace our American fiction of law, including at one time an earlier United States of America. ~

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/01/31/the-origins-of-u-s-citizenship/

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Your “natural born citizen” argument fails on so many fronts. Here are just two.

First, you cannot prove that Obama is a “natural born citizen” simply because as you contend, he is not a “naturalized” citizen. Without having first established the universe of possible realities that may exist when something does not exist, to argue that a certain reality exists simply because something does not exist is fallacious. In other words, without having first established the universe of possible citizenship status of those who are not “naturalized,” to argue that someone is a “natural born citizen” simply because that person is not a “naturalized” citizen is fallacious.

Second, you cannot prove that Obama is a “natural born citizen” simply because as you contend he is a born citizen. Simply stated, the clause is “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.” The word “natural” is not mere surplusage with no meaning. Of course, all “natural born citizens” are born citizens, but not all born citizens are “natural born citizens.” Hence, you still have to prove that even if Obama is a born citizen (which is still in dispute), he is also a “natural born citizen.” This you have not done and cannot do because Obama does not meet the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Even if Obama was born in the United States, he was without any doubt not born here to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of his birth. There is no dispute under the facts provided by Obama himself that his mother was a U.S. citizen, but his father was not.

Thus, Obama as a matter of law is not and cannot be a “natural born citizen.”

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"John Jay’s 'strong check' applies to the Legislature, not to the Commander in Chief of the Military."

John Jay suggested the strong check on government ministers in general, and specifically proposed the natural born citizen requirement, with "born" underlined, for the command in chief of the army. He wrote the letter to Washington half-way into the time of the Constitutional Convention. Contrary to your suggestion, he did not single out a future legislature, and he did not know, for the Convention had not yet decided, that the Constitution would make the head of the executive branch commander in chief of the military.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Since the Framers provided that members of the Legislature need to be 'Citizens of the United States' for 7 or 9 years, respectively, we can only conclude that that status was the 'strong check' he asked for regarding the administration of government."

Where by "conclude" you mean guess. The judicial branch also administers our national government, yet the Constitutional contains no citizenship requirement for judges. Was Jay's letter influential? Yes, almost certainly. That doesn't change the fact that you are just making stuff up.

I cannot cite the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defining "natural-born citizen". I've already admitted it, multiple times, and you, Mr. Apuzzo, have proclaimed multiple times that I lose the debate because of that admission. I'm going to go right on admitting it. I think you miss how obvious it is that I am telling the truth and you are not.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown,

You said: “John Jay suggested the strong check on government ministers in general, and specifically proposed the natural born citizen requirement, with ‘born’ underlined, for the command in chief of the army.”

Reply: Exactly right. The legislature, whose members had to be “Citizens of the United States” for 7 and 9 years, respectively, received a “strong check” and the Commander of the Military, who had to be a “natural born citizen,” received a stronger or strongest check.

You said: “He wrote the letter to Washington half-way into the time of the Constitutional Convention.”

Reply: Correct. And he wrote to him because he probably got wind that the proposed draft of the Constitution were a bit soft on allegiance requirements for the legislature and the commander.

You said: “Contrary to your suggestion, he did not single out a future legislature.”

Reply: This is a ridiculous statement given that the Convention was drafting a Constitution.

You said: “[H]e did not know, for the Convention had not yet decided, that the Constitution would make the head of the executive branch commander in chief of the military.”

Reply: You do not know what Jay knew at that time. But in any event, so what? The point still remains that he recommended that the Commander had to be a “natural born citizen” and the Convention united that office with that of the President and required the President also to be a “natural born citizen.” Are you making the ridiculous argument that the meaning of a “natural born citizen” changes based on whether it applies to the President or the Commander of the Military? Of course it does not and so your argument is meritless.

You said: “Where by ‘conclude’ you mean guess.”

Reply: Unlike your made up stuff, my conclusions are based on the historical and legal evidence.

You said: “The judicial branch also administers our national government, yet the Constitutional contains no citizenship requirement for judges.”

Reply: So what? Am I supposed to conclude something special from that statement, something which shows that you are correct?

You said: “Was Jay's letter influential? Yes, almost certainly. That doesn't change the fact that you are just making stuff up.”

Reply: Unknown, unlike you, I am made nothing up. My position is based on the historical and legal record. You have neither evidence nor argument and just throw some words around, thinking that you actually make any sense.

You said: “I cannot cite the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defining "natural-born citizen". I've already admitted it, multiple times, and you, Mr. Apuzzo, have proclaimed multiple times that I lose the debate because of that admission. I'm going to go right on admitting it. I think you miss how obvious it is that I am telling the truth and you are not.”

Reply: We also cannot cite the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers in how they defined “the right of the people to keep and bear arms.” But we still can conclude today what the clause means. Since you have no position on how the Founders, etc. defined a “natural born citizen” and offer no information on that score other than your Fourteenth Amendment/Wong Kim Ark argument, you lose by default by having presented an irrelevant argument.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"It is not correct to say that a 'citizen' or a 'citizen of the United States' is excluded from being a 'natural born citizen' and therefore President."

Glad to hear it. The one and only person I heard say that silly thing was you, Mr. Apuzzo. I can quote you on it if you like, but as it now appears not to be your position I'll refrain unless you make it an issue again.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"As we have seen, in order for a person to be a “natural born citizen,” ..."

As we've seen, the authorities from whom you chose to seek a ruling on the merits of your theory found it to be without merit.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote, in the same comment:
"the constitutional national common law definition...
this common law definition...
the constitutional national common law definition...
satisfying that constitutional definition...
the constitutional national common law definition...
that constitutional national common law definition...
the constitutional national common law definition..."

The Unites States Supreme Court wrote in US v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) at 655, quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 456 (1888) at 478:

"There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes." "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history."

Unknown said...

1 of who knows how many

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Some badly informed people contend that any person who is a citizen at birth is a 'natural born citizen.'"

How, at this point, could you think that the crack, "Some badly informed people", could help you, Mr. Apuzzo? In what you call your "historic" case, Kerchner v. Obama, you cited the book /America's Constitution: A Biography/ by Yale Law Professor Akhil Reed Amar. That very book says, on page 164, that "natural-born citizen" means citizen from birth.

"Some badly informed people"? Amar is a renowned constitutional scholar. He wrote the book on the Constitution -- I mean literally -- he wrote the book on the Constitution that you cited as an authority to the Federal Court. Of course you can disagree on sundry matters with the authorities you cite, but associating their positions with "some badly informed people" is crank nonsense. Amar is as well informed on the meaning and interpretation of the United States Constitution as people get, and Mr. Apuzzo, you know it.

Nicely as Professor Amar refutes you, being your own chosen authority, reality gets even worse for your contention. We are seeing the outstandingly well-informed express a broad consensus that the natural-born citizens, in the sense of Article II, are exactly the citizens of the United States that gained their citizenship at birth. Some scholars note doubts in the case of births outside the U.S., but that's as far as I hear any respected expert go against the consensus.

Could reality get worse than that for your theory? Yes, and it does. Even the doubts do not apply to your theory, Mr. Apuzzo. *Only* the badly informed or willfully ignorant take your position that a native-born citizen, meaning one who acquired citizenship upon birth in the United States, is not a natural-born citizen unless the parents were citizens. There is no scholarly debate on it. Your position is simply crank nonsense.

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

I've seen you say some really stupid things in putting together one of the most ridiculous birther theories in existence, but you've outdone yourself this time.

You don't think that admission records are part of a person's medical records? In that case, you should be able to get the admission records for the mother of Stig Wallech (sp?), who remembers seeing President Obama in the nursery with her newborn son. Or you could get Barbara Bush's admission records for the birth of her son George W. The fact is that these records (along with the rest of a person's medical records) are protected by privacy law and belong to the patient. The idea that they can be demanded to prove something that has already been established as a certainty according to the Constitution is ludicrous.

You then go on to imply that public and private hospitals have different standards of patient privacy that they must maintain---this is, quite simply, moronic. The applicable laws regulate the privacy of the records of every patient---they don't assign different levels of protection to patients in public vs. private institutions.

Let's examine a couple of case studies---under my interpretation of the law, they pose no problem whatsoever, but it isn't as clear how your theory would deal with them. First, consider the case of Tom Vilsack (former Democratic presidential candidate). Mr. Visack was a foundling---his birth certificate can't possibly list his parents as they are unknown. While he is almost certainly the child of US citizens, this cannot be legally established. Is he eligible? If so, how can he prove it? If not, why didn't any of his opponents point this out?

A more difficult case for your boneheaded ideas to cope with is that of myself. I'm over 35 and have resided in the US for my entire life. I have my original birth certificate which lists my adoptive parents (I was adopted at birth) with no indication that they are not my birth parents. My adoptive parents were both natural born citizens and while my biological parents probably were as well, there is no way to verify that. I am not entitled to any of the admissions records from the small hospital where I was born---doing so would violate the privacy of my birth mother since I was likely the only child born that day (or one of very few) and it would probably be pretty easy to deduce who she was from admissions records (especially if they showed that she was admitted to, say, the maternity ward).

Clearly, your odious, unAmerican nonsense would disenfranchise millions of orphans and adoptees, including myself and Mr. Vilsack. Although, like most birthers, you seem uninterested in applying your impossibly high standards for documentation to anyone but President Obama---why is that?

Remember, "the ultimate authority on the validity of a government issued document is the government that issued it" and a Hawai'i DoH official has testified UNDER OATH that the information on President Obama's COLB and LFBC is accurate and that the images posted on the White House web site are images of the document on file.

MichaelN said...

Unknown quoted....

"The Unites States Supreme Court wrote in US v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) at 655, quoting Smith v. Alabama, 124 U.S. 456 (1888) at 478:

"There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes." "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history."

Reply:

The English common law .....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:

...that issue is no subject to the King of England, though he be born upon his soyl, and under his meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a subject...

There be regulary (unlesse it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born.
1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the king.
2. That the place of his birth be within the king’s dominion.
And 3. the time of his birth is chiefly to be considered;"


Wong Kim Ark majority opinion...

"The term "citizen," as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term "subject" in the common law,..."

Now let's see....

"...that issue is no citizen of the US, though he be born upon US soyl, and under US meridian, for that he was not born under the ligeance of a citizen...

What did Wong get?

"citizen of the United States" and NOT NBC ......... why? ...... because Wong was not born under the ligeance of US citizen parents.

MichaelN said...

The English common law recognized 4 types of allegiance.

It seems the Framers also recognized different types of allegiance, evidenced by the distinction made in the US Constitution's Article II.

One type of allegiance qualified persons born in the US AND "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" (i.e. a degree of allegiance on the part of the parents), as "citizens of the United States.
English common law held that it is not the climate nor the soil that makes the subject/citizen born.

So what extra allegiance is it which makes a person who is a born "citizen of the United States", a "natural born Citizen"?

How is this higher allegiance measured?

The SCOTUS in the Wong Kim Ark case held that the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be NBC, and also held that there are two types of born citizens of the US and further that the weight of alien parents' allegiance is relatively weak, and only suffices to make their native-born children "citizens of the United States" as was the opinion of the court, with Wong deemed to be born of a weaker allegiance than that of a native-born child who would be a "natural born Citizen" via a higher degree of allegiance.

The allegiance (if any) of the two types of native-born children, due by their native-birth is equal, but the allegiance of their respective parents is not equal, i.e. the US citizen parents' allegiance is stronger than the weak allegiance of alien parents.

Allegiance:

native-born in US = 1 point = "citizen of the United States"

native-born in US, to citizen parents = 2 points = natural born Citizen of the United States.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

Face reality that you have no evidence for your revisionist crank theory that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”

First, just on its face such a statement is absurd, for it reads out of the “natural born citizen” clause the word “natural” and renders the word mere surplusage and meaningless, a result that is inadmissible when interpreting words and phrases found in the Constitution.

Second, your nonsense theory is as absurd as saying that all of one’s children are necessarily one’s natural children, when we know that one can under adoption law make a total stranger his or her child. In other words, all born citizens cannot be natural born citizens, for positive and municipal laws can also make one a born citizen. If such laws make one a born citizen, that person cannot be a “natural born citizen,” just like if adoption law makes one the child of the adopting parent, that child is not that parent’s natural child. Simple proof that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not obtain their definition of a “natural born citizen” from positive or municipal laws is the fact that as recognized by Wong Kim Ark, such laws can create persons born with dual and conflicting allegiances and citizenships. The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not allow U.S. citizens to be such with dual allegiances at birth or after birth, let alone “natural born citizens.” So their “natural born citizen” (not some later born citizen created through subsequent law) surely could not have violated their wish.

Third, you cannot produce any founding era source as evidence that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.” In fact, you concede that you do not know how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizen,” and thereby admit your ignorance (real or feigned) on the subject. Rather, you rely on the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark’s interpretation and application of that amendment as your source for the definition of a “natural born citizen.” But the big problem for you and the court that decided the Indiana Ankeny decision and other lower courts that followed its erroneous lead in adopting this approach is that a constitutional amendment made in 1868 and which could have but did not amend the Constitution is not controlling in the interpretation of the Constitution that was adopted in 1787 and ratified in 1789. On the other hand, what is controlling is the law that defined a “natural born citizen” at the time that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers adopted and ratified the Constitution and upon which they relied to define that clause.

Continued . . .

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

"Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

Face reality that you have no evidence for your revisionist crank theory that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.” "

Traitors like Unknown, with their typical double-standards, recognize that allegiance of alien parents of native-born children matters to some extent (i.e. by claiming that allegiance as strong enough to make a NBC), and allegiance of US citizen parents matters in the case of their children who are born off-shore. (in both instances resulting in "citizen of the United States")

But when it comes to weighing US citizen parents' allegiance in any other matter, the traitors choose to ignore and/or reject the strong allegiance of US citizens.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown wrote: "...Yale Law Professor Akhil Reed Amar...says ...that "natural-born citizen" means citizen from birth."

There are two elements of nonsense in that statement. One is the presence of a hyphen where one does not belong, -as in a stupid-old man, a lazy-old dog, a pretty-young woman.
Anyone who places a hyphen between natural and born is a quack self-appointed expert when it comes to the subject of natural citizenship, -about which he is possessed of misconceptions.

There is no such adjective modifier as natural-born when it comes to citizenship. It only applies to natural child birth.
One the other hand, "native-born" qualifies for a hyphen because together they create a meaning of native birth. But Natural modifies the word "citizen", not the word "born". Natural Citizen. Look it up!
Second, "citizen from birth" is either a lazy man's way of saying citizen by birth (since they are all citizens at birth, or it is a deliberate falsehood that attempts to equate the natural citizenship of children of citizens with the legal citizenship of children of aliens.

One is by natural birthright inheritance, -the other is by a gift of the natural citizens of a nation to the native-born children of immigrant foreigners.
"the natural-born citizens...are exactly the citizens of the United States that gained their citizenship at birth."

That shows that you know nothing. Natural citizens do NOT gain their citizenship. They are born being citizens by nature, just as any creature is born being whatever its parents are. But your warped mind can't grasp anything of an occam's razor simplicity. It's all complicate by the legal crap that infiltrates your thinking.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

Face reality that you have no evidence for your revisionist crank theory that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”

First, just on its face such a statement is absurd, for it reads out of the “natural born citizen” clause the word “natural” and renders the word mere surplusage and meaningless, a result that is inadmissible when interpreting words and phrases found in the Constitution.

Second, your nonsense theory is as absurd as saying that all of one’s children are necessarily one’s natural children, when we know that one can under adoption law make a total stranger his or her child. In other words, all born citizens cannot be natural born citizens, for positive and municipal laws can also make one a born citizen. If such laws make one a born citizen, that person cannot be a “natural born citizen,” just like if adoption law makes one the child of the adopting parent, that child is not that parent’s natural child. Simple proof that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not obtain their definition of a “natural born citizen” from positive or municipal laws is the fact that as recognized by Wong Kim Ark, such laws can create persons born with dual and conflicting allegiances and citizenships. The Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers did not allow U.S. citizens to be such with dual allegiances at birth or after birth, let alone “natural born citizens.” So their “natural born citizen” (not some later born citizen created through subsequent law) surely could not have violated their wish.

Third, you cannot produce any founding era source as evidence that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.” In fact, you concede that you do not know how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizen,” and thereby admit your ignorance (real or feigned) on the subject. Rather, you rely on the Fourteenth Amendment and Wong Kim Ark’s interpretation and application of that amendment as your source for the definition of a “natural born citizen.” But the big problem for you and the court that decided the Indiana Ankeny decision and other lower courts that erroneously followed its lead in adopting this approach is that a constitutional amendment made in 1868 and which could have but did not amend the “natural born citizen” clause is not controlling in interpreting that clause which was adopted with the Constitution in 1787 and ratified in 1789. On the other hand, what is controlling is the law that defined a “natural born citizen” at the time that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers adopted and ratified the Constitution and upon which they relied to define that clause.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Fourth, nor do you gain any ground by pleading ignorance as to how the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers defined a “natural born citizen” and then at the same time giving us some revisionist definition of the clause provided by who you call “real world authorities.” The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained in Minor and the Wong Kim Ark Court confirmed that at the time that the Framers drafted the Constitution, the common law that existed then defined a “natural born citizen” as a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The presence of this common law informs on what the common understanding of the people and/or their representatives of that time would have been. That Constitution as drafted was eventually ratified by the states. So, the “natural born citizen” clause as so defined became the supreme law of the law which abrogated any English common law or state law on the subject. The definition of the clause as originally established become subject to change only through duly ratified constitutional amendment. Ratification of the Constitution froze the meaning of a “natural born citizen” at the moment of ratification. Hence, no subsequent changes or additions to the meaning of a “natural born citizen” not done through constitutional amendment can have the effect of amending that original and commonly understood definition of a “natural born citizen” under the Constitution.

We have seen that modern revisionist definitions of the “natural born citizen” clause such as provided by Congressional Attorney, Jack Maskell, and some law professors (maintain that all born citizens, regardless of how that status is obtained, are “natural born citizens”), and some lower court judges (maintain that birth in the United States alone, regardless of the citizenship of a child’s parents, makes one a “natural born citizen”), that suit a political agenda or a pre-selected person who cannot be allowed to fail, are constitutionally meaningless. Only a duly ratified constitutional amendment can add to, subtract from, or modify the meaning of a “natural born citizen” as defined by the people and/or their representatives when the Constitution was adopted and ratified. We have also seen that the meaning of a “natural born citizen” at that critical time was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This is the definition of a “natural born citizen” which still prevails today under our Constitution.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti wrote: "The fact is that these records [admission records] (along with the rest of a person's medical records) are protected by privacy law and belong to the patient."

Says who? Are you so stupid as to think that the hospital's records of who they admit are connected in anyway with private medical records of treatment and diagnosis? Hospital records are one type of record which belong to the hospital, -NOT the patient. Doctor and nursing records belong to the patient.
The fact of their admission to a hospital is not private unless that is hospital policy, which is unrelated to a patient's medical records.

As someone who has done nursing in both private and public hospitals, I can tell you that private for-profit hospitals in or near Hollywood have a much higher standard of privacy than public non-profit hospitals when it comes to being discreet about who is admitted.
Their reputation is on the line, and that doesn't involve anything to do with medical ethics covering patient medical files.
As for adoption and hospital admissions records, -those again, aren't medical records but are hospital admission records that are kept private for sociological and maybe legal reasons. Not because of medical ethics.
No rational person would oppose a secretly adopted person regarding presidential eligibility since they have no direct connection to any foreign power, or people, or culture or nation. They are essentially indistinguishable from known natural citizens and probably are as well, with odds running between 25 & 30-to-one in their favor.

Unknown said...

2

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"This position is so easy to refute."

And we've seen over and over how you do it so easily: You make yourself judge, and exercise your First Amendment right to proclaim your verdict. Yes, that is so easy.

What makes you noteworthy among a webload of self-proclaimed victors, Mr. Apuzzo, is that you chose to test your theory outside your own head. In the real world, including the great state of New Jersey where you make your living practicing law, the position your efforts refuted was your own. Authorities from whom you chose to seek rulings on the merits of your theory found your theory to be without merit.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"If the Framers had wanted any born citizen to be eligible to be President, they would have written 'born Citizen,' rather than 'natural born Citizen.'"

When you imagine what the Framers would have written, you do great. Making up positions for them is easy, and because they are no longer alive to speak for themselves it is safe.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Second, we have incontrovertible evidence from the Founding that shows this position to be wrong. Alexander Hamilton had wanted for the future a born citizen to be the standard for the President. But the Framers agreed on 'natural born citizen.'"

There is no evidence that the founders thought 'natural born citizen' to be different from Hamilton's suggestion. Your evidence, Mr. Apuzzo, not only fails to be "incontrovertible", it's actually better evidence for the position you are trying to refute. If a natural-born citizen is simply a citizen from birth, as I and Professor Amar hold, then the difference is merely a rewording unworthy of historical note. If there is a substantive difference that was important to Framers, as you and attorney Taitz hold, then it would be worthy of debate. Near as we can tell, there was no such debate.

Is that incontrovertible evidence for my side? No. Hamilton's sketch for a constitution is interesting as a contemporaneous record that we have today, but where it went at the time is unclear. Nevertheless, your point is less than zero evidence for your side, Mr. Apuzzo.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Third, the Framers wanted to assure that future Presidents and Commanders of the Military were born not subject to any foreign power and therefore with sole and absolute allegiance (legal, political, and military) to the United States."

So quote the Framers going all "sole and absolute", if you are not just making stuff up again.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Fourth, the Naturalization Acts of 1790 treated a child who it considered a born citizen (applying only to children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents) to be 'considered as a natural born citizen.' So from this act we can see that even though that child was treated as a born citizen, the most Congress could do was say that he/she 'shall be considered as a natural born citizen.'"

I cannot tell what justification you are trying to advance there. Tone and context indicate that you think you are making a point on your side. Your wording, "the most", indicates belittlement of what Congress could do, but what you actually say implies that the most Congress could do in 1790 was trash your theory and support mine. Yes, and they did.

Unknown said...

3

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Fifth, the Fourteenth Amendment also makes born citizens. But what is most telling is that it calls them 'citizens of the United States,' not 'natural born citizens.'"

Most telling? That sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment refers to both those born in the United States and those naturalized in the United States. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." It cannot use "natural born citizen" because many of them are not born citizens. As we have seen courts decide, those that are born in the United States and under its jurisdiction are natural-born citizens in the sense of Article II.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Sixth, U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) held that Wong was a born citizen. It held that he was a 'citizen of the United States' from the time of his birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. It did not hold that he satisfied Minor's common law definition of a 'natural born citizen' and therefore also a 'natural born citizen.'"

Closing your eyes will not make reality go away. "All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens." U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, quoting U.S. v. Rhodes


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Seventh, Wong Kim Ark said that a person who is born out of the United States to U.S. 'citizen' parents is a born citizen, but only by the grace of a naturalization act of Congress. Accord Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (both majority and dissents). It is a contradiction to say that a 'naturalized' 'citizen of the United States' could be a 'natural born citizen.'"

Please quote it. The Rogers v. Bellei opinions use "natural born citizen" three times: first in a quote of the Naturalization act of 1790; second in a note on Article II, "Apart from the passing reference to the 'natural born Citizen' in the Constitution's Art. II, § 1, cl. 5, [...]"; and third, in a dissent, again quoting the Naturalization act of 1790.

The key distinction in Rogers v. Bellei is between citizens meeting the 14'th Amendment criteria of being "born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof", versus Bellei's situation of having been born and naturalized outside of the United States and not subject to US jurisdiction. The other major point was that the provision by which Bellei lost citizenship was part of the act under which he was granted citizenship..

I know of only one judicial expression where the case or controversy at issue was the natural-born status of a foreign-born citizen. Markham Robinson petitioned the the United States District Court for the Northern District of California for a preliminary injunction to remove John McCain from the ballot. Robinson v. Bowen, 567 F. Supp. 2d 1144 2008. To rule on the motion, the Court assessed the likelihood of Robinson winning on the merits. The Court took citizenship from birth to be natural-born citizenship. The Court cited both Rogers v. Bellei and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark in it's order denying the motion and dismissing the case. Your understanding of your citations is so bad, Mr. Apuzzo, that in real court they worked against your theories.

Unknown said...

4 of 4

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Eighth, various naturalization Acts of Congress today make persons born citizens. But they, like the Fourteenth Amendment, call them 'citizens of the United States,' not 'natural born citizens.'"

In Minor v. Happersett, the Supreme Court quoted the Naturalization Act of 1790, including the provision considered foreign-born children of citizens to be natural-born citizens. The Court noted that Congress made the provisions under its power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization, and further said that the subsequent naturalization acts retained the substance of the quoted provisions [at 168]. The subsequent acts, like the acts today, make such children citizens upon birth without using the "natural born" language. Thus we see that an act considering children to be citizens upon birth is the same in substance as one considering them natural-born citizens.

Rogers v. Bellei includes similar observations:

"1. The very first Congress, at its Second Session, proceeded to implement its power, under the Constitution's Art. I, § 8, cl. 4, to 'establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization' by producing the Act of March 26, 1790, 1 Stat. 103. That statute, among other things, stated, 'And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States . . . .' [ellipsis in Court Opinion]

"2. A like provision, with only minor changes in phrasing and with the same emphasis on paternal residence, was continuously in effect through three succeeding naturalization Acts." Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815 (1971), at 823

We see again that the change from considering such children natural-born citizens to considering them citizens upon birth is only a minor change in phrasing.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti wrote: "Hawai'i DoH official has testified UNDER OATH that the information on President Obama's COLB and LFBC is accurate and that the images posted on the White House web site are images of the document on file."

You are such a shameless liar. You know full well that no one from the HDoH has ever been put under oath or testified in any court of jurisdiction over the birth certificate matter.
Your gross exaggeration of the truth would be laughable if not so sickening. As I've repeatedly reminded you, no one from the HDoH has yet ever issued a signed document attesting to any facts regarding Obama's vital record other than the lying letter from Fuddy to Obama in which she claims to "have witnessed the copying of the certificate and attest to the authenticity of these copies."

That lying claim, though signed, was not "under oath". I've repeatedly shown why that statement was not only false but was from a S.O.P. stand-point, impossible.

"...images of the document on file."
(plural???) Translation: the image in the falsified data-base record which appears on DoH monitors when inputting Obama's name into the system.

When are you going to drop the false claim that anyone in the DoH has verified anything in any legal format, -all of which require a hand signature the world over? Your false assertions are unfounded and unsupportable, and yet you continue to lob them like paper-machete bombs. Pathetic.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"Unknown" foolishly quoted: "All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens." U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, quoting U.S. v. Rhodes

Have you stupidly or deliberately avoided any mention of who such persons were? Check the Civil War conscription laws to educate yourself. No foreigner nor his native-born sons were subject to U.S. jurisdiction, and thus were not born in allegiance to the United States since they retained their allegiance to their foreign sovereign. I've explain this at great length in many expositions.

No such person, nor any of his U.S. born sons were subject to the duty of citizenship because they were viewed as foreign citizens. So your quote is worthless and does not mean what you want it to mean.

"As we have seen courts decide, those that are born in the United States and under its jurisdiction are natural-born citizens in the sense of Article II."

Courts cannot make a falsehood into a truth by the power of their authority. They are impotent in that regard so why are you such a devoted sycophant? Their ruling comes down from Mt. Sinai? Or does it come with split decisions most of the time?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You really are outdoing yourself. First, you tell us that all “born citizens” are “natural born citizen.” I guess the next thing that you are going to tell us is that all red roses are natural red roses. U

Second, now, to make your Senator Ted Cruz eligible to be President, you add that there is no difference between a “natural born citizen” and a “citizen of the United States.” I guess the Framers did not get your memo when they wrote Article II, Section I, Clause 5.

Third, according to you, we do not know anything about what the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers thought about a “natural born citizen.” But that somehow makes you the winner on the meaning of a “natural born citizen.” Would you be so kind to explain how all that ignorance just happens to go in your favor.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You said: “As we've seen, the authorities from whom you chose to seek a ruling on the merits of your theory found it to be without merit.”

My reply: I see that you are still beating that “real world authorities” horse to death. What you fail to comprehend is that you mistake mere citation of legal authorities for legal argument. Your approach is as silly as someone who merely name-drops thinking that that alone makes him famous and influential. You can cite to all the authorities that you want, but it does not amount to a hill of beans if you also do not provide what the reasoning, analysis, and foundation for their opinion is. If you do not believe me, let us consider a brief filed with the U.S. Supreme Court. Your approach would be to file a brief which contains only a Table of Authorities and no Legal Argument. How far do you think that would get you?

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

The idea that everyone who has disagreed with your crank nonsense has done so to suit a political agenda or because they cannot allow President Obama to fail is patent projection and completely ridiculous. It suits the political agenda of Justices Scalia, Thomas, and O'Connor to support President Obama's eligibility? Chief Justice Roberts? In case you missed it, they were all appointed by Republicans. While most anti-birthers are supporters of President Obama, there are many conservatives who are against him politically but believe him to be eligible for the presidency. The Democratic party had a perfectly reasonable alternative in Hillary Clinton (who will likely get them another 8 years in control of the presidency) if there were any doubts about President Obama's eligibility.

Birthers, on the other hand, are united by their prejudice against President Obama. You are all so desperate to usurp the lawfully elected POTUS that, like Robert, you try to smear him as an ultra-radical leftist bent on destroying America instead of the center-right bi-partisan (not that it has done him any good) moderate that his words and policies have shown him to be. Sorry, but if birthers were on the right side of this issue, then there would be those among you that agreed with President Obama's policies, liked him personally but would not support him because they believed he was ineligible. Instead, most birthers are unable to say a single nice thing about the president---or even respect the office of the presidency by referring to him by his title.

Face it, the birthers are the ones marching in lockstep to a political agenda here (and an unConstitutional one to boot). In fact, the only thing that all of you can agree on is that you hate President Obama. You may not like it, but, to paraphrase John Wayne, he's your president and you should hope he does a good job.

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

I don't know what your signature fetish is all about, but like everything else you say, it's nonsense. I wasn't referring to Director Fuddy's signed letter verifying the authenticity of the LFBC, but I find your use of the special pleading fallacy to get around your own made up rule is pretty amusing.

Contrary to your belief, you can be found guilty of perjury without ever signing anything. If you've ever watched a courtroom drama, you may have seen witnesses in a hearing testify to tell "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". Do you think they can lie as long as they don't sign anything? Why don't you try that and see how it works out for you?

In addition to courtrooms, there are other forms of testimony to which perjury attaches---namely testimony to Congress or state legislatures. I was referring to statements made by the head of the Hawai'ian Department of Health to the Hawai'ian legislature. Or don't you think that the head of a government agency speaking officially under oath to a branch of that government counts under your made-up rules?

The fact is that the very notion that either of the president's birth certificates are forged is ridiculous as long as the only agency with the Constitutional authority to verify Hawai'ian birth stands behind them.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I said: “It is not correct to say that a 'citizen' or a 'citizen of the United States' is excluded from being a 'natural born citizen' and therefore President."

You said: “Glad to hear it. The one and only person I heard say that silly thing was you, Mr. Apuzzo. I can quote you on it if you like, but as it now appears not to be your position I'll refrain unless you make it an issue again.”

My reply: Looks like you are hopelessly lost. As Justice Gray explained in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to alien parents is as much a citizen as a natural born child born in the country to citizen parents. I see that you have had difficulty understanding what that means. Let me help you out.

A “citizen” or “citizen of the United States” is not necessarily a “natural born citizen.” For example, one who is a “citizen of the United States” by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress and not also by satisfying the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen” is only a “citizen of the United States” and not also a “natural born citizen.” So in that case, it is correct to say that a “citizen of the United States” is not a “natural born citizen.” But since a “natural born citizen” is also a “Citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment (surely a child born in the United States to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is “born . . . in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,” it is not correct to say that a “citizen of the United States” is excluded from being a “natural born citizen.”

But the crux of the matter lies in what the Constitution demands regarding eligibility for the Office of President and Commander. The Constitution at Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 recognizes a class of citizens which it calls “natural born citizens” and for those born after the adoption of the Constitution, makes that class the only class of citizens who are eligible to be President. It expressly states that “Citizens of the United States” were eligible for those offices only if they had that status as of the time of the adoption of the Constitution. Clearly the status of being a “citizen of the United States” is no longer sufficient today for one wanting to be President. Hence, it makes no sense and is rather foolish for someone wanting to demonstrate that he is eligible to be President or who is President to say that he is a “citizen of the United States,” regardless of what kind, or even a “native-born citizen” (meaning a “citizen of the United States” by birth in the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment) when the standard is that he must be a “natural born citizen.”

Our would-be President’s statement is as meaningless as someone, wanting to register his dog in the German Shepherd Beauty Contest which is open only for German Shepherds, telling the registration officials that he has a dog that he would like to enter into the contest. Now, we all know that a German Shepherd is a dog. But we also know that not all dogs are German Shepherds. So do you think that our would-be contestant should be allowed to get his dog into the contest simply because he has a dog which is just as much a dog as a German Shepherd (a citizen just as must a citizen as a “natural born citizen”), or must our contestant first have to prove that he is entering a German Shepherd into the contest and not just some dog for him to be allowed to enter his dog into the contest? Surely you would agree with me that if our would-be contestant can prove that his animal is a dog (a citizen), but he cannot prove that it is a German Shepherd (a “natural born citizen”), he should be barred from entering his dog in the German Shepherd Beauty Contest, regardless of how cute or cool his dog may be or what sad story the owner may weave regarding its upbringing.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"All the circumstantial evidence that you produce regarding de facto President Obama’s place of birth is noted."

As is your lying, smearing, and dental of reality, Mr. Apuzzo. Harsh words -- particularly "lying" -- so let's see if I can back it up.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
For example (this list is not exhaustive), he himself held himself out to the public for many years as having been born in Kenya.

Obama never claimed to be born in Kenya any more than McCain claimed a U.S. Navy ship was named for him. Both candidates happened to be named after their fathers, so there is a sense in which Obama was born in Kenya and McCain had a Navy ship named after him; one Obama and two McCains, just not the ones that ran for president in 2008. Some reports got confused, both during the campaign and earlier in their lives, but if you can cite a single instance where either of the candidates personally advanced those claims, please do so.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. quoted from /Dreams from My Father/, in part:
“I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. asked:
"But why would Obama complain about his mother not having the needed paperwork to prove that he was Obama’s Sr.’s son if Obama supposedly had as early as high school as he stated his own birth certificate which would have had his father’s name on it?"

Who said what kind of certificate he had or that he had it at a time at issue? You did, Mr. Apuzzo. According to your verified complaint to the United States District Court for the District of New Jersey:

"Obama has refused to publicly release his original Certificate of Live Birth (BC) even though in his book, _Dreams_from_My_Father_, he stated that he has it."

You wrote that. You signed it. Your client, with your advice, swore to it. You submitted it to a federal court in a verified complaint. It is a lie. That sentence I quoted you quoting:

"I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school."

That is the *only* reference in /Dreams from My Father/ to Obama having any birth certificate at any time. If I'm wrong on that, Mr. Apuzzo, please cite. Where in the book did you find what you claimed? Where did he say he has it, rather than came across it in when he was in high school. He graduated high school in 1979. Where did he claim that it was "his original Certificate of Live Birth (BC)", the document that you were smearing him for failing to publicly release even after he released his perfectly valid, perfectly legal, and perfectly ordinary Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

In response to my comment about Obama holding himself out as having been born in Kenya you said:

“Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"All the circumstantial evidence that you produce regarding de facto President Obama’s place of birth is noted."

As is your lying, smearing, and denal of reality, Mr. Apuzzo. Harsh words -- particularly "lying" -- so let's see if I can back it up.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
For example (this list is not exhaustive), he himself held himself out to the public for many years as having been born in Kenya.”

You then add:

“Obama never claimed to be born in Kenya any more than McCain claimed a U.S. Navy ship was named for him. Both candidates happened to be named after their fathers, so there is a sense in which Obama was born in Kenya and McCain had a Navy ship named after him; one Obama and two McCains, just not the ones that ran for president in 2008. Some reports got confused, both during the campaign and earlier in their lives, but if you can cite a single instance where either of the candidates personally advanced those claims, please do so.”

**********

My reply: You are the one who is denying reality.

You claim that there was confusion between the son Obama and the father Obama. This is a ridiculous excuse. This same excuse has been used to explain away how that Kenyan Ambassador, when asked specifically about President-Elect Barack Obama’s birth place, could have said that Obama’s birthplace in Kenya was well known and already a landmark. You state that “some reports got confused.” First, reports do not get confused, people do. Second, you do not tell us who got confused, the literary agency or Obama. I do not see how the literary agent would have gotten confused with Obama right there to guide her.

The text of Obama’s biography in the brochure created by Obama’s former literary agency, Acton & Dystel in 1991, and reported on by Breitbart News on May 17, 2012, states:

“Barack Obama, the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review, was born in Kenya and raised in Indonesia and Hawaii. The son of an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, he attended Columbia University and worked as a financial journalist and editor for Business International Corporation. He served as project coordinator in Harlem for the New York Public Interest Research Group, and was Executive Director of the Developing Communities Project in Chicago’s South Side. His commitment to social and racial issues will be evident in his first book, Journeys in Black and White.”

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/17/The-Vetting-Barack-Obama-Literary-Agent-1991-Born-in-Kenya-Raised-Indonesia-Hawaii .

The agency used Obama’s birth story in connection with marketing a future book called “Journeys in Black and White,” which neither Obama nor anyone else ever wrote. Twelve years later, in 2003, Dystel of Acton & Dystel, which was then promoting Obama’s new book, “Dreams from My Father,” still publicly proclaimed through the brochure that Obama was born in Kenya.

Through the Internet archive Wayback Machine, WND found an August 2003 listing of Dystel & Goderich’s author bios, stating the following:

“Barack Obama was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. His first book is ‘Dreams from My Father: A Story of Race and Inheritance.”
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2012/05/shocker-obama-was-still-kenyan-born-in-2003/#xKCqEtw1IKYPxoxB.99

WND also reported that in April 2007, two months after Obama had launched his presidential bid, the same agency was still holding Obama out as having been “born in Kenya.” Dystel & Goderich described Obama this way:

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

“Barack Obama is the junior Democratic senator from Illinois and was the dynamic keynote speaker at the 2004 Democratic National Convention. He was also the first African-American president of the Harvard Law Review. He was born in Kenya to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister and was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii, and Chicago. His first book, DREAMS FROM MY FATHER: A STORY OF RACE AND INHERITANCE, has been a long time New York Times bestseller.”

It was not until April 21, 2007 that any evidence appeared that the same agency changed Obama’s place of birth from Kenya to Hawaii.

I cannot imagine a competent publicist just on her own concluding that Obama was born in Kenya and then publishing that information to the public without having been provided that information and been so authorized to publish it by Obama himself.
Obama well knew what his publicist published about him 1991. In fact, it would have been Obama who provided his picture and “resume” to her so that she could have his background for any marketing materials that she published in connection with his first book which neither he nor anyone else ever published. Obama would have told her that he was the first black president of the Harvard Law Review, that he was born to an American anthropologist and a Kenyan finance minister, and that he was raised in Indonesia, Hawaii and Chicago. And he would have also told her that he was born in Kenya. There simply is no way that the agent could have made up any of those facts on her own.

Obama would have reviewed and corrected any marketing materials before they were published. It is standard practice that before biographical materials are published, that the interested person review them before final publication. Furthermore, Obama would have seen the marketing pamphlet which was used up to 2007 in the public domain. Obama would have also known that the agency said that he was born in Kenya when marketing the book, “Dreams from My Father.” Yet, throughout all those 16 years, there is no record of Obama ever having taken any steps to correct the alleged error. On the contrary, Obama ran for state senator, U.S. senator, and even President of the United States, while the alleged error still existed in the public domain.

If the publicist made the error and caused the inaccurate publication, not only in connection with the first book that was never produced, but also in connection with “Dreams from My Father,” then she should provide a credible explanation as to how the error was made and why it was allowed to stay uncorrected for 16 years and through the intended publication of two books and through Obama’s several political campaigns for high public office. To date, the publicist has not provided any credible explanation showing that she herself erroneously concluded that Obama was born in Kenya and that she erroneously published it.

So, Unknown, it looks like you are going to have to come up with an excuse better than confusion and stop calling me a liar to get Obama out of this one.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Do you really think that a bio written by a employee (who admits that she made a mistake) of a publisher will really trump the full faith and credit of the state of Hawai'i in a court? If that's an example of your legal acumen, I can see why you've never gotten anywhere litigating this issue...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

DF President Barack Obama said that he “discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school." “Dreams from My Father,” p. 26. Obama would have started high school in 1975 and graduated in 1979. If he discovered the “birth certificate” right in those papers when he was in high school, he would have possessed the document at the time he discovered it which was anytime between 1975 and 1979. Obama called the document a “birth certificate.” He did not call it a “certification of live birth” or some other name. Hence, it must have been a certified copy of a long form Birth Certificate. What else could it be? People still have things that they had in high school. A birth certificate is an important document and one would think that if he had it in high school, he still had it when he was going to run for office. If he no longer had it, he never told anyone that he did have a certified copy of his birth certificate when he was younger, but that he had misplaced it or otherwise lost it.

Also, you fail to address why would Obama complain about his mother not having the needed paperwork to prove that he was Obama’s Sr.’s son if Obama supposedly had as early as high school as he stated his own birth certificate which would have had his father’s name on it? He graduated high school in 1979. His father died on November 24, 1982. So his father died a little more than 3 years after Obama left high school. During that time, he could have still had his birth certificate, if he in fact found it while he was in high school as he stated.

I do not get your point that I am lying or smearing Obama by mentioning these facts and asking these questions.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You are always accusing others for making “straw man argument” when you are the king in that department.

You asked: “Do you really think that a bio written by a employee (who admits that she made a mistake) of a publisher will really trump the full faith and credit of the state of Hawai'i in a court? If that's an example of your legal acumen, I can see why you've never gotten anywhere litigating this issue...”

Did I ever say that the Obama’s agent’s pamphlet trumps the Full Faith and Credit Clause to be given to a valid birth certificate that may be properly introduced into evidence in any court? No.

What you fail to include in your genius comment is that Obama had many chances to assert the Full Faith and Credit Clause in the many courts in which he was sued, including in the ones with which I was involved. But never once did he assert it. The simple reason for that is that did not once present a certified true copy of his alleged birth certificate to any court so as to be in a position to argue that that document from Hawaii should be granted the Full Faith and Credit by that court which is deserves.

So, your comment about the Full Faith and Credit Clause demonstrating any reason why I have “never gotten anywhere litigating this issue” is asinine like so many of your comments.

Unknown said...

barrys lit agent made a (haha) 16 year mistake saying he was born in kenya, nothing to see here and as always lets move along. This appeared in his bio from 1991-2007 and then conveniently became born in hawaii when his puppet masters told him to run for president. Birthers are not the ones lying saying the 14th amendment citizen is the same as a A2 natural born citizen. We can also read a simple paragraph in minor talking about the "natives or natural born citizens" never being in doubt without twisting it. One would have to be living in a fantasy land to believe anything barry and his shills say without triple checking

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti farted:
"Contrary to your belief, you can be found guilty of perjury without ever signing anything."

Are you really so stupid as to claim that I claimed that anyone in the HDoH committed perjury? Or that any of them ever testified and swore an oath to tell the truth in an open court of law?

I said (so plainly a child could understand, -that excludes you) that they could NOT be charged with perjury or perjurous official statements since none of them issued any official statements.

All statements were unofficial except perhaps the one to Obama (which was signed) who could claim executive privilege and put it off-limits from public investigation.
Without a signature, nothing is OFFICIAL!!!! It is artificial crap issued in the guise of something official, and able to fool the unthinking like yourself into accepting it.

As for Fuddy's statement to the Hawaiian legislature,...Bonnie swears to Clyde, "honey, you're the only man for me!" Is Clyde likely to object and interrogate her?
A.G. Mitchell says to Nixon; "we just have to tough this out!" Does Nixon protest that he must be hiding something?
All of Hawaii is as Leftist as they come. They don't turn on or investigate one of their own.

"...as long as [Hawaii] verifies Obama's] birth [and] stands behind the president's birth certificates, ...the very notion that either of them are forged is ridiculous."

In your little girl innocent world, no one ever lies, -especially the righteous adults who work for politically slanted government sycophants of national leaders. Of course! Nixon was rail-roaded! He would never lie to the American People, anymore than Clinton would.
Duh! Grow the hell up and stop spewing your childish nonsense. No one yet has ever fallen for it. It's patently and transparently self-serving.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown, Slartibartfast, and any other interested Obot,

Maybe you can help me out a bit. As you well know, the question is: what is a “natural born citizen?”
As you also know, Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell maintains that any person who is a born citizen, regardless of how that status was obtained, is a “natural born citizen.” You agree with him.

I have demonstrated that Maskell can arrive at his argument by only two logical means given his definition of a “natural born citizen.” First, I have demonstrated that to argue that a “natural born citizen” is a born citizen, that Obama and Cruz are born citizens, therefore Obama and Cruz are “natural born citizens,” represents the logical fallacy of affirming the consequent. This means that the argument is logically invalid. I have argued that that is one of two possible arguments that Congressional Attorney Maskell must make given his definition of a “natural born citizen.” Squeeky Fromm say that that is not Jack Maskell’s argument and that I just made that up. (She really does not understand what I am talking about.)

Second, I then have demonstrated that to make Jack Maskell’s born citizen argument valid, he must argue the only other logical alternative which is that all born citizens are “natural born citizens,” Obama and Cruz are born citizens, therefore Obama and Cruz are “natural born citizens.” Both of you and Squeeky Fromm say that that is what Jack Maskell maintains. I have shown that this argument is logically valid and have stated that if both premises are true, then the conclusion is also true which makes the argument valid and sound. But I have also explained that if one or both of the premises are false, then the conclusion is false which, while the argument is still logically valid as to form, it is unsound (false as to substance). So the question then becomes whether both of the premises are true?

Let us assume for argument’s sake that both Obama and Cruz are born citizens. Hence, the issue then becomes is it true that all born citizens are “natural born citizens?” But if it is true that all born citizens are “natural born citizens,” then what is a “natural born citizen?” Let me give you some help. Do not tell me that a “natural born citizen” is a born citizen, because then as I have shown above, your argument can only lead you to commit the fallacy of affirming the consequent. So, I’ll be anxious to hear from you on how to resolve this conundrum.

Robert said...

Any "due faith and credit" owed to the pronouncements of the Hawaii DOH is contingent on that department’s consistency with the duly established laws and procedures under which they are chartered. In the case of the Obama birth certificate the Hawaii DOH has violated their own disclosure laws that require them to provide for the public examination of any and all documents necessary to substantiate all official statements.

Further, Hawaii has also violated the “due faith and credit” trust it owes the other 49 states with whom they have joined and with whom they have agreed that only a natural born citizen (Article 2) who has qualified for office (Amendment 20) may assume the office of POTUS.

They are derelict in their legitimate duty as a party to our Constitution to provide all information in their possession that either establishes or denies the clear and undeniable eligibility, or lack thereof, of Mr. Obama. Instead, they hide behind a ridiculously manufactured claim of privacy. This claim cannot hold under the following several and obvious circumstances:
• Mr. Obama chose to run for office of his own free will
• He knew the requirements. In fact, he demonstrated his knowledge and accepted that a natural born citizen is one born in the country to citizen parents as sponsor of SR511.
• He knew that, among the several requirements, that if he became the President elect, he would be required to “qualify” prior to assuming office.
• One can only qualify for the office of President by showing that he is a natural born citizen, has attained the age of 35 years, and has been at least 14 years a resident – and by presenting certification of having received the required majority of the legal votes. This is an “all or nothing” proposition as there are no provisions in the Constitution for any substitutes or waivers.

Actually, by not providing for Mr. Obama the simple documentation available to every baby born in any hospital in Hawaii in 1961, the State of Hawaii is confirming that they don’t have any such documents for Mr. Obama. The only other options are totally absurd: 1. that he never requested them (if they really do exist) or 2. Hawaii is acting to prevent Mr. Obama from establishing any legitimacy for office. Hey, they know the requirements, too. Maybe, in spite of what they say, they really don’t like him.

Afterthought: We can only wonder if Hawaii withheld this most elusive of documents that only a single employee (now deceased – single fatality of a disabled aircraft soft ocean landing) of the DOH has ever claimed to have seen when Mr. Obama needed it for his passport, his social security number, his adoption papers (to Lolo Soetoro), or at any other time one might normally need an official copy of one’s birth certificate.

Maybe we should ask for the records showing all the times Mr. Obama’s birth certificate was requested and provided. Those records are public information.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

I'm going to be busy for the rest of the week, but I'll answer you when I have time. My position is more nuanced than Mr. Maskell's, but I do believe that his position is consistent with anything that the SCOTUS would rule so I'll defend that position for the sake of argument.

One important distinction: President Obama and Rafael Cruz are both natural born, but not for the same reason---President Obama is just as much a natural born citizen as Virginia Minor and by operation of the same principle (which has not been in doubt since Wong Kim Ark). Rafael, on the other hand, is natural born by the spirit of the Naturalization Act of 1790---which, as Unknown pointed out, was unchanged by the differences in the language in subsequent acts.

As a result, questioning President Obama's eligibility is frivolous while I believe that a non-frivolous (if ultimately unsuccessful) challenge could be made to the eligibility of Rafael. This interpretation is consistent with the passing of the resolution declaring John McCain natural born---Senators Clinton and Obama knew that while a case could be made that McCain wasn't eligible, it was almost certainly a loser and had extremely bad optics (since he was born overseas to an active naval officer), so they made it clear that they weren't going to raise the issue. No one even considered President Obama's eligibility because it's been settled law for over a century. If there was any question about that at all, then I'm sure a reciprocal resolution would have been passed as well, but no one could even conceive of there being a need for such a thing.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

The conundrum is solved for them by resorting to their idea of English common law supposedly labeling alien-born immigrants' children as natural born subjects. Then by drawing a direct parallel to natural born citizens, presto, both are rendered as "terms of art" which can mean anything that one wishes to ascribe to them based on a flimsy and an intellectually dishonest rationale.

They say the term of art must mean "native-born" = born citizen = natural born citizen.

While others say the term of art must mean that plus also blood relationship; ergo; soil + blood citizenship. But such a form of citizenship does not exist anywhere on earth for individuals.

One can label such a classification of citizens as a "group" or "class" but one cannot assert that such a class is recognized by any nation on earth.

In all nations, one is a citizen either by blood or by soil. Never both. One is either a natural citizen by Natural Law or one is a legal citizen by national law based on borders. Never both.

It is totally erroneous to claim that America has a common law of natural citizenship that no other nation on Earth has. That is purely a fantasy based on a blind mischaracterization of the meaning of words that are easily subject to false explanation.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

If I don't ask, I will get no answer. So here's me asking: I want Slarti and Unknown to take their best shot at the irrefutable truths in my latest exposition and then attack any that upon reflection must definitely be false.

I dare them to try. I expect that they will be forced to ignore this challenge since they will find there is no refuting the truth that they find. It is titled:

WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD KNOW BUT DOESN'T

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/01/31/the-origins-of-u-s-citizenship/

[time to pull your hair out you ignorant status-quo, consensus-opinion obamunists] I'm sorry,... Was that too harsh? Read, and you'll understand why it isn't.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"There does not exist in the public record one contemporaneous medical document showing that either Ann Dunham and/or Barack Obama were patients at Kapiolani Hospital in August 1961."

Out of 43 presidential births, for how many can you find in the public record any contemporaneous medical document, Mr. Apuzzo? Let's see how you do. You can decline of course, but then everyone would see that you are trying to impose special rules just upon Obama.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The courts have not been willing to grant to any plaintiff any discovery which would shed much needed light on this issue."

And you have absolutely no way to fulfill that need you feel. That's a frequent consequence of crank theories.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Additionally, Obama did not prove with any competent evidence in one of the many courts of law in which he was challenged on the issue of his place of birth where he was born or who he even is."

Turned out the plaintiffs that thought he would have to were deluded.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"So, those courts made those findings or rulings without a shred of evidence before them demonstrating that Obama was born in the U.S."


Wanda: "Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not 'Every man for himself.' And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up."
-- A Fish Called Wanda, 1988

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Reply: Exactly right. The legislature, whose members had to be 'Citizens of the United States' for 7 and 9 years, respectively, received a “strong check” and the Commander of the Military, who had to be a 'natural born citizen,' received a stronger or strongest check."

O.K. I could not tell what you were arguing when you claimed, "John Jay’s 'strong check' applies to the Legislature, not to the Commander in Chief of the Military."


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You do not know what Jay knew at that time."

Huh? My claim was that he did not know because it had not been decided. If you think my premise is wrong, please cite. Or is your point that I do not know Jay lacked clairvoyance?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Unlike your made up stuff, my conclusions are based on the historical and legal evidence."

So just cite when Jay said "natural _born_ citizen" means what you claim. Arguing that Jay wanted a stronger check on the Commander in Chief does not get you there. The requirement that one be born a citizen and at least 35 is a strictly stronger check than the 7 and 9 years citizenship required for members of the House and Senate.

(Though because of the Article II grandfather clause it is not true that the eligibility requirements for President were strictly stronger than those for Congress. For a few years in the beginning, there could be people eligible to be President but ineligible for Congress.)


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"We also cannot cite the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers in how they defined 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms.' But we still can conclude today what the clause means."

I love it when you argue my side.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

As people of your ilk fail to comprehend, its the facts that should decide the problem, not the personalities of the people involved.

Among the so many other anomalies related to Obama's birth story, no other Presidents publicly held themselves out through their literary agents for 16 years as being born in some foreign country. So, except for Chester Arthur, Obama is not similiarly situated as past Presidents on the question of their place of birth. Hence, Obama on the question of his birth place should not be treated equally as other past presidents. Rather, he belongs in the category of Chester Arthur, who was probably born in Canada, and without any doubt born to British parents.

The rest of your comment is just general BS like so much of what you write.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You write:

“Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
‘We also cannot cite the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers in how they defined 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms.' But we still can conclude today what the clause means.’

I love it when you argue my side.”

********

My reply:

You are a hopeless cause. Your discernment powers are wanting. You fail to realize that conclusions, whether right or wrong, may be based on different types of evidence. What we conclude today as to the meaning of the Second Amendment's arms clause is based on contemporaneous evidence from before and soon after the Founding period, not on irrelevant evidence coming into existence in 1866 like the Fourteenth Amendment which is, along with Wong Kim Ark’s interpretation and application of that amendment, the basis of your definition of a “natural born citizen.” That is a difference like night and day.

So do not get all bubbly with me.

Carlyle said...

Let me remind everybody that except for the demented wing of the OBOTs, everybody agrees that NBC requires citizen parents. It seems clear to most of us that it also requires place of birth. Nobody of any rationality believes it involves only place of birth.

Therefore, Obama, by his own narrative is not NBC.

But like everything else, his narrative is unlikely to be true. Therefore we need to focus on something else.

Can one have NBC status and lose it? Once lost, can it be regained?

Suppose Obama was born in US to citizen parents? Suppose further that he lost his citizenship along the way. He may or may not have become naturalized to regain that lost citizenship.

Is he NBC?

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

Stranger ignorantly opined:
"President Obama and Rafael Cruz are both natural born, but not for the same reason---President Obama is just as much a natural born citizen as Virginia Minor and by operation of the same principle..."

Not only is Obama not a natural born citizen, -he is barred by the 14th Amendment from being a citizen by its naturalizing authority.

The remark you paraphrased is supported by nothing. No philosophy, -no law, -no statement in the Declaration of Independence nor the Constitution.
Virgina Minor was born a citizen by blood relationship. A natural blood citizen. Alien children are born aliens by blood relationship also. Legal permission citizens.

No alien nor his native-born son are naturally subject to U.S. jurisdiction unless they are officially members of American society.
No child of a transient, Visa Card foreign GUEST is subject to American sovereign authority over members of American society.
THEY ARE EXEMPT!!!
The flip-side of that relationship is that they are not eligible for U.S. citizenship.

All of your garbage fails to do one single simple thing; demonstrate the nature of Obama Jr.'s legal subjection to American authority. Through what, by what was he born subject?
Quote the law, the statute, the clause by which he was born subject. You can't because only the opposite exists.

Section 201, Public Law 402, 80th Congress

The White House April 5, 1951
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10232

AMENDING THE SELECTIVE SERVICE REGULATIONS

By virtue of the authority vested in me by Title I of the Selective Service Act of `1948 (62 Stat. 604), as amended, I

hereby prescribe the following amendments of the Selective Service Regulations prescribed in part by Executive Order No....

3. Section 1611.11 of Part 1611, DUTY & RESPONSIBILITY TO REGISTER, is amended to read as follows:

Sec. 1611.11 ALIENS WHO ARE NOT REQUIRED TO REGISTER. (a) A male alien who is now in or who hereafter enters the United States and who has not declared his intention to become a citizen of the United States shall not be required to be registered under section 3 of Title I of the Selective Service Act of 1948, as amended, and shall be relieved from liability for training and service under section 4 (b) of said act provided: ...

(6) He is a person who has entered the United States temporarily as a non-quota immigrant under the provisions of...the Immigration Act approved May 26, 1924, as amended...
(e) solely for the purpose of STUDY at an accredited school, college, academy, seminary, or university,...

Slartibartfast said...

Carlyle,

I guess you believe that Justices Scalia, O'Connor, Thomas and Roberts as well as the "Father of the Constitution" James Madison are irrational...

"It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other.

Not to mention the SCOTUS in Wong and lower courts in Indiana, New Jersey, Georgia, Alabama and several other states, everyone who claimed to be a Constitutional scholar before 2008, the Congressional Research Service, every textbook on US civics that has ever been published, Vattel (in section 214, I believe) and many, many others.

Man... the "demented wing of the Obots" is huge!

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

Calvin's case is pretty clear that even a foreigner temporarily sojourning in the land has sufficient allegiance to produce natural born issue---your nonsensical ravings backed only by your baseless assertions of your own non-existent authority and expertise notwithstanding. The ability to conscript a person has nothing to do with it.

As for your challenge, I have better things to do than to write a response that you are unwilling to consider and unlikely to understand even if you did. If you want to prove the merits of your arguments, find a way to get them ruled on by a judge---I don't, however, believe that you will like the result.

Unknown said...

to say NA 1790 made a child born outside of US to a alien and a citizen a natural born citizen is a blatant lie by obots who are blatant liars like the lying fraud in white house

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

There are three fundamental factors to keep in mind about Calvin’s Case:

1. The English common law notion of broad allegiance did not survive the American Revolution in the new America. The King considered all friendly aliens located in his dominion as “subjects.” Hence, a child born in his dominion, even if born to a friendly alien, was considered as being born to a “subject,” which created enough allegiance in the new born to consider him or her as a “natural-born subject.” This “natural-born subject” also did not have any right to expatriate himself. But the situation was different in the new America. No alien located in its territory was ever considered a “citizen.” An alien could become a “citizen” only if he satisfied applicable naturalization law and swore an oath to his new nation. Hence, if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was not born to “citizen” parents, but rather to alien parents. Under the American rule, being born in the country to alien parents did not produce allegiance strong enough to make a “citizen of the United States,” let alone a “natural born citizen.” Also, in America, “citizens” had the natural right to expatriate themselves.

2. Calvin was born in Scotland to Scottish parents after the English throne devolved upon James VI of Scotland in 1603, who then became James I of England, Ireland, and Scotland. Not being born in England, Calvin was not born subject to its laws or government. He was therefore no subject in England and therefore could not inherit lands there. The English Parliament refused to naturalize him. Hence, Lord Coke and the English court naturalized Calvin at birth to be an English “natural-born subject.” But in the new America, things were different. As I have demonstrated, under the early naturalization Acts of Congress (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855), Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization. If any child born in the United States to alien parents became a “citizen,” the child was only a “citizen of the United States,” after birth, and never a “natural born citizen.” Simply stated, in the United States, a naturalized “citizen,” whether at birth or after birth, while he or she could be given all the privileges, immunities, and rights of a “natural born citizen,” constitutionally those rights could not and did not include the right to be President or Vice-President.

3. These fundamental differences in the English and American nations were manifested in the common law of both nations. Under the English common law, a “natural-born subject” was any child born in the King’s dominion and in allegiance and obedience to him. This broad rule included as “natural-born subjects” children born in the King’s dominion to alien parents, provided the parents were not foreign diplomats or military invaders. On the other hand, under American common law, a “natural born citizen” was only a child born in the United States to parents who were U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth. A child born in the United States to alien parents was alien born and in need of naturalization under Acts of Congress.

So, as we can see, while Calvin’s Case helped develop through naturalization at birth the jus soli rule of the English common law and thereby expanded the class of people who could be English “natural-born subjects,” it is not the source of the jus soli and jus sanguinis American common law rule which defines a “natural born citizen.”

The Framers relied upon the American common law definition of a “natural born citizen” when they drafted the Constitution. That rule therefore became constitutional national common law, which became part of the supreme law of the land, subject to change only by duly ratified constitutional amendment.

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo said ....
"As I have demonstrated, under the early naturalization Acts of Congress (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855), Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.

If any child born in the United States to alien parents became a “citizen,” the child was only a “citizen of the United States,” after birth, and never a “natural born citizen.” "


Here's the majority opinion of SCOTUS in the Wong Kim Ark case, which supports this fact; where the nonsense and absurd obamatized claim that the naturalization acts excluded native-born children of aliens has no legal support whatsoever.

Wong Kim Ark....
"This court has no authority to interpolate a limitation that is neither expressed nor implied.

Our duty is to execute the law, not to make it.

The protection provided was not intended to be confined to those of any particular race or class, but to embrace equally all races, classes and conditions of men.

16 Wall. 128, 129."

The naturalization act of 1790, which clearly naturalizes native-born children of aliens and makes no suggestion nor implies that there were any of the native-born children of aliens that were excluded from the act....

First naturalization act of 1790...
"And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States."

Read it again..... SCOTUS majority holding in the Wong Kim Ark case...

Wong Kim Ark....
"This court has no authority to interpolate a limitation that is neither expressed nor implied.

Our duty is to execute the law, not to make it.


The protection provided was not intended to be confined to those of any particular race or class, but to embrace equally all races, classes and conditions of men.

16 Wall. 128, 129."

MichaelN said...

No mention of any common law here...

"Mr. HOWARD: I now move to take up House joint resolution No. 127.

The motion was agreed to; and the Senate, as in Committee of the Whole, resumed the consideration of the joint resolution (H.R. No. 127) proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States.

The first amendment is to section one, declaring that all "persons born in the United States and Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the States wherein they reside.

I do not propose to say anything on that subject except that the question of citizenship has been fully discussed in this body as not to need any further elucidation, in my opinion.

This amendment which I have offered is simply declaratory of what I regard as the law of the land already, that every person born within the limits of the United States, and subject to their jurisdiction, is by virtue of natural law and national law a citizen of the United States.

This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons. It settles the great question of citizenship and removes all doubt as to what persons are or are not citizens of the United States. This has long been a great desideratum in the jurisprudence and legislation of this country.[1]"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:

"I said: “It is not correct to say that a 'citizen' or a 'citizen of the United States' is excluded from being a 'natural born citizen' and therefore President."

You said: “Glad to hear it. The one and only person I heard say that silly thing was you, Mr. Apuzzo. I can quote you on it if you like, but as it now appears not to be your position I'll refrain unless you make it an issue again.”

My reply: Looks like you are hopelessly lost.


I will take that as declining my offer that if you don't bring it up again I won't quote you take the silly position.


"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President. It required those persons to be 'natural born Citizens' in order to be so eligible. If that is all true and I have never seen anybody argue that it is not, then how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?"
-- Mario Apuzzo Esquire, January 15, 2011
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"A 'citizen' or 'citizen of the United States' is not necessarily a 'natural born citizen.'"

Everyone knows that.

"But since a 'natural born citizen' is also a 'Citizen of the United States'
[...]
it is not correct to say that a 'citizen of the United States' is excluded from being a 'natural born citizen.'"

Everyone knows that and everyone except you knew it all along.

Getting a straight answer from you has proven intractable. Obviously an Article II natural born citizen is citizen of the United States, yet you had to mix in an extraneous justification that relied on your losing legal theory. I elided it for clarity.

Anonymous said...

Slarti barfed: "It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of ALLEGIANCE. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion[of ALLEGIANCE]; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other.”

Understand two things; 1. Allegiance is not citizenship and citizenship is not allegiance.
2. The Madison quote is just an expression of his impression as a Virginian whose state gave, and perhaps always gave, membership to "sons of the soil" children of immigrants.
Neither you nor anyone else has yet shown that such citizenship was actually the pattern of the United States. Where are the facts and figures and records and recountings to prove any claim other than that a few states allowed jus soli for their immigrant's native-born children?

They apparently do not exist, though you pretend that they do and that Madison would not have had a skewed view by being raised as a Virginian. And you failed to include mention of the year of his statement. It was long before he became familiar with the laws of the other states, -maybe even before the Constitution was written.
So the quote is not authoritative nor binding on anything. Opinions can be wrong and very often are, -even surprisingly.

"your nonsensical ravings" -The last desperate resort of a cornered scoundrel. I've never been able to get your ilk to address any of the facts I've uncovered. It is an impossible task and thus the pathetic resort to throwing mud at the problem of inconvenient truths.

You are NOT "too busy" to address my revelations. You just can't without revealing your own stupefication and vacuity regarding the reality you oppose.
You convince yourself that your little bubble of human law governs the vast universe of Natural Law in which it exists. Your world is as tiny as that of a little girl playing house. It's like a little pond compared to an ocean. You understand nothing.

Stranger said...

Carlyle asks: "Can one have NBC status and lose it? Once lost, can it be regained?

Suppose Obama was born in US to citizen parents. Suppose further that he lost his citizenship along the way. He may or may not have become naturalized to regain that lost citizenship. Is he NBC?"

Answer: Can a tiger "lose" its strips?
"NBC status" is not like horns or antlers than can be "lost". It is the innate, organic political nature with which one is born as a natural blood-connection inheritance. No natural citizen has ever, nor could, lose their natural national membership any more than a Chinese or African person could lose their race.

All acts by Congress that violated that truth were eventually understood to be unconstitutional and were over-turned or repealed.

Obama, even if native-born, was never a U.S. citizen for the same reason that children of foreign ambassadors are not citizens. HE WAS NOT SUBJECT to American political authority just like them. Only citizens and immigrants are subject, -along with their native-born children.
Foreign GUESTS are NOT subject, and thus can't father a child who is. They and their children are EXEMPT, EXCLUDED. One is subject by law (legal residency) or by blood. Neither were connected to Obama's father and the U.S. By blood Obama was British only. His mother passed nothing to him, and thus the need for a birth certificate that she could not obtain for him since she couldn't prove she had been a Hawaiian resident for one year.
He never gained U.S. citizenship because he didn't need it while passing as an Indonesia citizen, and also as one with presumed triple citizenship. That presumption was false. He only had dual citizenship; British (by blood) and Indonesian (by adoption).
If he had cared enough about being officially a U.S. citizen, then he would have registered with Selective Service. He didn't. And the fact that he was in school at Occidental in California when his fake SSS card was supposedly written out in Hawaii speaks volumes about his fraudulent life.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of III

FACTS:

Here is our exchange of comments:
M. Apuzzo: “It is not correct to say that a 'citizen' or a 'citizen of the United States' is excluded from being a 'natural born citizen' and therefore President."

Unknown: “Glad to hear it. The one and only person I heard say that silly thing was you, Mr. Apuzzo. I can quote you on it if you like, but as it now appears not to be your position I'll refrain unless you make it an issue again.”

M. Apuzzo: “Looks like you are hopelessly lost.”

Unknown: “I will take that as declining my offer that if you don't bring it up again I won't quote you take the silly position.”

You then provide this January 2011 quote from me as what you think is evidence that you have caught me in a contradiction:

"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President. It required those persons to be 'natural born Citizens' in order to be so eligible. If that is all true and I have never seen anybody argue that it is not, then how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?"

-- Mario Apuzzo Esquire, January 15, 2011
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/

You then go with more:

M. Apuzzo: "A 'citizen' or 'citizen of the United States' is not necessarily a 'natural born citizen.'"

Unknown: “Everyone knows that.”

M. Apuzzo: "But since a 'natural born citizen' is also a 'Citizen of the United States'
[...] it is not correct to say that a 'citizen of the United States' is excluded from being a 'natural born citizen.'"

Unknown: “Everyone knows that and everyone except you knew it all along. Getting a straight answer from you has proven intractable. Obviously an Article II natural born citizen is citizen of the United States, yet you had to mix in an extraneous justification that relied on your losing legal theory. I elided it for clarity.

DISCUSSION:

You said: “Obviously an Article II natural born citizen is citizen of the United States, yet you had to mix in an extraneous justification that relied on your losing legal theory. I elided it for clarity.” In my 2011 quote, I did not say that a “natural born citizen” is not a “citizen of the United States.” Too bad for you and Ballantine (see below) that you are not able to discern that there exists a logical difference between the statements: a “natural born citizen” is a “citizen of the United States” (correct) and a “citizen of the United States” is a “natural born citizen” (incorrect) which have their logical distinction and accuracy based on the fact that all “natural born citizens” are “citizens of the United States,” but not all “citizens of the United States” are “natural born citizens.”

At the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified, there did not exist any Act of Congress making anyone a “citizen of the United States.” Yet there were “citizens” and “natural born citizens” which existed at common law. Under that common law, all “natural born citizen” were “citizens,” but not all “citizens” were “natural born citizens.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

In your 2011 quote of me, you left out that I was asking Ballantine a question. Here is what I asked him:

“Your attack of my position contains a logically fantastic statement which I desperately need for you to address. The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a ‘citizen of the United States’ could no longer be President. It required those persons to be ‘natural born Citizens’ in order to be so eligible. If that is all true and I have never seen anybody argue that it is not, then how could one be a ‘citizen of the United States’ and also be a ‘natural born Citizen’ at the same time?”

As you can see, I asked Ballantine to provide an explanation of how the grandfather clause worked. My question asked how “could one be” both a “citizen of the United States” and a “natural born citizen” at the same time if one was excluded from eligibility for being only a “citizen of the United States.” Hence, my question suggested that at the time that the Constitution was adopted and ratified, a “natural born citizen” and a “citizen of the United States” had to each have their own distinct constitutional definitions. My question also suggested to Ballantine that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers communicated that it was not sufficient for one wanting to be President that he was a “citizen of the United States.” Rather, that person had to prove that he was a “natural born citizen.” My question does not suggest as you maintain that I said that a qualifying “citizen of the United States” could not be a “natural born citizen” today.

Allow me to explain further and why I qualify my statement by saying “today.” In my quote, I asked how “could” a “citizen of the United States” at the same time be a “natural born citizen” given the eligibility prohibition against future “citizens of the United States” stated in Article II. Obviously, if a “citizen of the United States” is not also a “natural born citizen,” then that “citizen of the United States” is not a qualifying “citizen of the United States” and belongs to a different class of “citizen of the United States.” Due to your poor reading comprehension, you erroneously interpret me as saying that today a “citizen of the United States” cannot be a “natural born citizen” and that a “natural born citizen” is not a “citizen of the United States” when I made no such statements.

How can you not understand that if Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 excluded a person from being President after its adoption because that person was only a “citizen of the United States,” then that person, while a “citizen of the United States,” could not also be a “natural born citizen” or else the Article would not exclude him. In other words, such excluded “citizen of the United States” would not be a qualifying “citizen of the United States” which would make him also a “natural born citizen.”

We know that both the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment provide definitions of a “citizen of the United States” which are also met by “natural born citizens” under common law. But this is the first time in our nation that a “citizen of the United States” was ever defined in a way that, also meeting the common law definition of a "natural born citizen," was also a “natural born citizen.” But constitutionally critically important to understand is that simply satisfying the standards established by these positive laws did not make one a “natural born citizen,” who was still defined under a different standard found in constitutional national common law as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. But given the definitions provided by these laws, of course, a “natural born citizen,” who was born in the United States to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth, was also a “citizen of the United States” under these laws.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

But things were different before the adoption of these positive laws, which period is the only period which, apart from how we may be informed about the Constitution by simply reading its text, provides the relevant historical and legal sources that can be used to interpret the Constitution at any given time. Notwithstanding your ignorance of the fact, it is still true that when we interpret the original Constitution we look for evidence existing at the time just before and after it was adopted and ratified. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor informs that at the time of the adoption of the Constitution, a “citizen of the United States” was any person who acquired the status of a “citizen” by whatever means available, i.e., by adhering to the Revolution or through formal naturalization under subsequent state naturalization laws, and that under the common law that existed at that time and with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution, a “citizen” who was also a “natural born citizen” was a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. If you think that Minor is mistaken in what it says regarding who at common law among the “citizens” were also “natural born citizens,” provide your evidence of that error.

Also, if you believe that you have proven me wrong on my constitutional dichotomy between a common law “natural born citizen” and a statutory or Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” and for asking Ballantine my question, then give us one example existing before the Constitution was adopted and ratified or thereafter, but before Congress passed the Civil Rights Act and the Fourteenth Amendment in 1866 (ratified in 1868) demonstrating that anyone who the Continental Congress or Congress called in any of its naturalization Acts a “citizen of the United States” (not to be conflated and confounded with a “citizen” under the common law) to whatever degree any such acts may exist, was also a “natural born citizen” by meeting the definition of a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen” confirmed by Minor as existing in the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they adopted the Constitution, i.e., a child born in a county to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Happy NBC hunting!

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You are a hopeless cause. Your discernment powers are wanting. You fail to realize that conclusions, whether right or wrong, may be based on different types of evidence. What we conclude today as to the meaning of the Second Amendment's arms clause is based on contemporaneous evidence from before and soon after the Founding period, not on irrelevant evidence coming into existence in 1866 like the Fourteenth Amendment which is, along with Wong Kim Ark’s interpretation and application of that amendment, the basis of your definition of a 'natural born citizen.' That is a difference like night and day."

Question Counselor: Are the limits on the legislature's ability to restrict the arms I may legally keep and bear determined by current judicial interpretation, or by private citizens figuring out what the First U.S. Congress and the ratifiers of the Second Amendment meant back in 1789-1791?

Mr. Apuzzo, you are wrong on the law. You are right that I base my theory of the eligibility of the native born on U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark which was decided over a century after the adoption of the Constitution. Nevertheless, you are wrong on the law.

If you were right that Justice Gray, writing for the Court in Wong, had no support for his use of English common law to define "natural born citizen", you would still be wrong on the law.

Even had you convinced ALJ Masin that the support Gray thought he had was for the wrong thing, Masin would still have had to rule against you. Administrative Courts of the great state of New Jersey do not review whether U.S Supreme Court decisions include sufficient support.

Were you to present a convincing argument that, as you have occasionally said, Gray was wrong on the law, that would not mean President Obama is ineligible. Unless and until U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark is reversed, native-born citizens are natural-born citizens.

Didn't they cover how precedents work in law school?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"In my 2011 quote, I did not say that a 'natural born citizen' is not a 'citizen of the United States.'"

You said exactly what I quoted you saying, including:

"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."
-- Mario Apuzzo Esquire, January 15, 2011
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/

That ludicrous assertion was a premise of your laughable question:

"If that is all true and I have never seen anybody argue that it is not, then how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?"
-- ibid

Ronald Wilson Reagan was a citizen of the United States born after the adoption of the Constitution. According to your 2011 explanation, the grandfather clause said that *any* such person could no longer be President. That's nuts. Reagan was a citizen of the united states and a natural born citizen at the same time. All natural born citizens are.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Second, now, to make your Senator Ted Cruz eligible to be President, you add that there is no difference between a 'natural born citizen' and a 'citizen of the United States.'"

If I did it was unintentional. My position is, and has been for some years, that the Article II natural born citizens are the proper subset of United States citizens that gained their citizenship upon birth.

If you'll quote where I said that there is no difference I will be happy to correct.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Obama called the document a 'birth certificate.' He did not call it a 'certification of live birth' or some other name. Hence, it must have been a certified copy of a long form Birth Certificate. What else could it be?"

It could be a hospital souvenir certificate, like Donald Trump first released as his birth certificate, among other things. A variety of forms are commonly called "birth certificates".


Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"People still have things that they had in high school. A birth certificate is an important document and one would think that if he had it in high school, he still had it when he was going to run for office."

That was not what you claimed. In your verified complaint you wrote:

"Obama has refused to publicly release his original Certificate of Live Birth (BC) even though in his book, _Dreams_from_My_Father_, he stated that he has it."

The only reference to any kind of birth certificate in /Dreams from My Father/ is:

"I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school."

You lied.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of II

1. I mentioned contemporaneous evidence from before and soon after the Founding period. You said: “Question Counselor: Are the limits on the legislature's ability to restrict the arms I may legally keep and bear determined by current judicial interpretation, or by private citizens figuring out what the First U.S. Congress and the ratifiers of the Second Amendment meant back in 1789-1791?”
My reply: My point is one of quality of evidence when interpreting the Constitution, i.e., contemporaneous evidence from the Founding versus your laws passed in 1866, but you give us a straw man argument, focusing on the fact that a court has more authority when interpreting the Constitution than a private citizen rather than addressing the nature of the evidence that a court relies upon when interpreting the Constitution. Your point is asinine, for we all know that only courts have the authority to render legal opinions. But your point proves nothing, just like all your comments. Why do you not address the real point which is who has the better evidence which informs on the meaning of a “natural born citizen,” you or me?

2. You said: “Mr. Apuzzo, you are wrong on the law. You are right that I base my theory of the eligibility of the native born on U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark which was decided over a century after the adoption of the Constitution. Nevertheless, you are wrong on the law.”

My reply: Just telling me on what you base your definition of a “natural born citizen” and that I am wrong on the law without more means nothing. Making conclusory statements without any analysis or reasoning gets you nowhere.

3. You said: “If you were right that Justice Gray, writing for the Court in Wong, had no support for his use of English common law to define "natural born citizen", you would still be wrong on the law.”
My reply: “I made no such statement to ALJ Masin. I did not say that Justice Gray did not have any support for his use of the English common law to define a “natural born citizen.” Rather, what I said and what I still say today is that Justice Gray had no support for his notion that our nation after the American Revolution continued to define our national citizenship under the English common law. All the relevant U.S. Supreme Court cases say exactly the contrary to what Justice Gray said. That part of his decision is all made up stuff, supported by misstatements of case law and omissions of existing evidence to the contrary. But none of that affected the definition of a “natural born citizen” which he did not address when he gave us his irrelevant expose’ on the English common law. You fail to understand that I said that Justice Gray defined with the aid of the English common law a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment, not an Article II “natural born citizen.” Justice Gray acknowledged that Minor had already defined a “natural born citizen” under the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and it did not disturb that definition which the Court repeated was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens.” We know that Justice Gray was well aware of the definition of a “natural born citizen” as confirmed by Minor, for he even distinguished a child born in the country to alien parents from a “natural born” citizen child born in the country to citizen parents, saying that they were both “citizens” by being born in the country. Since Wong could not be a “natural born citizen,” for he was born in the country, but not born to citizen parents, Justice Gray held that he was that other “citizen” by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment, i.e., by virtue of being born in the United States while “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

4. You said: “Even had you convinced ALJ Masin that the support Gray thought he had was for the wrong thing, Masin would still have had to rule against you. Administrative Courts of the great state of New Jersey do not review whether U.S Supreme Court decisions include sufficient support.

My reply: You said that “Administrative Courts of the great state of New Jersey do not review whether U.S Supreme Court decisions include sufficient support.” But you fail to tell us support for what? Of course, ALJ Masin does not have the authority to question whether the U.S. Supreme Court had sufficient support for anything it may decide. He has to just accept the decision of the highest court of the land. But I never asked ALJ to go beyond his authority as you assert. I did ask him that he read the Minor and Wong Kim Ark decisions correctly which he did not. Wong Kim Ark did not define a “natural born citizen” any differently than did Minor. Rather, Wong Kim Ark defined a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment. So the error that ALJ Masin made is in relying upon Wong Kim Ark for a definition of a “natural born citizen” that he used to declare Obama a “natural born citizen” which Wong Kim Ark did not give. In fact, Wong Kim Ark did not give any definition of the clause which is different from what Minor said that definition is. In short, ALJ Masin read the Wong decision wrongly. So ALJ Masin’s error is not related to whether Wong Kim Ark had sufficient support for its holding, which is only related to a Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” and not an Article II “natural born citizen.” Rather, his error is in seeing something in Wong Kim Ark which is not there and using what he erroneously saw as the basis for declaring that Obama is a “natural born citizen.” His second error is also in not binding himself to the authority of the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor which provided the correct definition of a “natural born citizen.” On his second error, how convenient for you to take the position that ALJ Masin was bound by Wong Kim Ark (which in any event does not say what you and ALJ Masin would like it to say), but you do not likewise take the same position that ALJ Masin was bound by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court Minor decision, which did confirm the common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

5. You said: “Were you to present a convincing argument that, as you have occasionally said, Gray was wrong on the law, that would not mean President Obama is ineligible. Unless and until U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark is reversed, native-born citizens are natural-born citizens.

My reply: I never said that Wong Kim Ark was wrong on the law pertaining to an Article II “natural born citizen.” The error of Wong Kim Ark was, as Chief Justice Fuller so convincingly demonstrated in is dissent, in relying on the English common law as an aid to define a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment.
Nevertheless, Wong Kim Ark does not have to be overturned to show that Obama is not a “natural born citizen.” Again, Wong Kim Ark is only a Fourteenth Amendment case, not an Article II “natural born citizen” one. Rather, the U.S. Supreme Court case that undoubtedly establishes that Obama is not a “natural born citizen” is the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court decision of Minor v. Happersett (1875). Too bad for you and DF President Barack Obama that Minor’s definition of a “natural born citizen” has never been overturned, not even by Wong Kim Ark.

6. You said: “Didn't they cover how precedents work in law school?”

My reply: Since you admit that you do not know what law schools teach, you surely could not have gone to law school.

So, Unknown, I have demonstrated, like so many times already, that nothing you say is correct.

thalightguy said...

Unknown,

Is the following true or false?

The definition of who a "natural born Citizen" is, is the same Today as the Framers understood it to be when they inserted the Term into the Constitution.

Unknown said...

i think masin and these other spineless judges got nasty calls from president jarrett. Masin totally ignores on purpose Article 2, minor and the 14th amendment. He also totally ignored barrys online BC which is a "computer generated forgery".

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown wrote: "-the Article II natural born citizens are the proper subset of United States citizens that gained their citizenship upon birth."

Your choice of words exposes your ignorance of citizenship fundamentals.
In 1790 98% of Americans were children of Americans, -not foreigners. None of them had "gained" anything at birth. They were born being Americans, innately, organically, unavoidably, and indisputably. They were conceived as Americans-in-the-making.

No law gave them that which they were born as. Does a dog gain its dogginess at birth? The words "at birth" also reveal your ignorance.

Natural citizenship is recognized at birth but not "gained" at birth, but jus soli citizenship by law is gained "at birth", -sort of. That means it is not gained by any natural principle but by arbitrary human criteria.
It could be gained at the end of the first day of life, or at the end of the first month of life, or at the end of the first year of life, -or first decade (as it is in Mexico).

The timing of obtaining citizenship is not an element of the basis of citizenship (native-birth). So to say that all persons with citizenship from birth are natural born citizens is the height of stupidity since the timing is unrelated to the means.

For natural citizens the means is a blood connection. It begins at conception. For an immigrant-fathered native-born baby the means is conforming to the two requirements of the 14th Amendment; 1.Native-birth, 2. Subjection to American political authority by birth to a member of American society.

There has never been a legal or judicial clarification as to when and how a native-born baby becomes subject to American jurisdiction. Let's look at a possible hypothetical.
Subjection does not begin until one is of age to be conscripted into military service. Before then they have no adult citizenship rights and obligations. They can't vote, serve on juries, or run for office.

They are not CITIZENS in the full sense although they are U.S. Nationals.
Soooo..."citizenship" via the 14th Amendments begins upon subjection at 18 years of age. -not "at birth".

thalightguy said...

(I just had an Epiphany)

The U.S. Constitution as Amended does not allow for “naturalization outside of the United States”, and it does not give Congress the Power to establish citizenship for the children born outside of the U.S.to U.S. citizen parents while they remain outside of the U.S. unless by Treaty.

The 14th Amendment clearly limits the word “Naturalization” found in Article I, Section 8, Clause 4 to “Persons in the United States”.

Unknown said...

A.R.Nash wrote:
"If I don't ask, I will get no answer. So here's me asking: I want Slarti and Unknown to take their best shot at the irrefutable truths in my latest exposition and then attack any that upon reflection must definitely be false."

Mr. Nash, I support your right to go on proclaiming your irrefutable truths. It's just not my thing.


A.R.Nash wrote:
"I dare them to try."

My mom taught me to ignore those. I was four.


A.R.Nash wrote:
"It is titled: WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD KNOW BUT DOESN'T"

As I've explained several times, I find Mr. Apuzzo interesting because he practices law for living and chose to test his theories in court. Mr. Nash, I don't see your writing connecting to reality. That title screams "fantasy world".

Unknown said...

I [Unknown/NotLina] wrote: "As we've seen, the authorities from whom you chose to seek a ruling on the merits of your theory found it to be without merit."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote: "I see that you are still beating that 'real world authorities' horse to death."

Mr. Apuzzo, if you don't want to deal with your cases on a blog, why do you have a blog about your cases?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said:
"What you fail to comprehend is that you mistake mere citation of legal authorities for legal argument."

The very first article on this blog noted:

Some argue that the decision of United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U. S. 649, 18 S.Ct. 456, 42 L.Ed. 890 (1898) is the final word on “natural born Citizen” and that under that decision, as long as Obama was born on U.S. soil, he is a “natural born Citizen.”
-- Mario Apuzzo Esq., 20 Dec 2008

All the eligibility cases that reached the merits of the two-citizen-parent theory rejected it citing U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. Those "some", later called "Obots", gave you in advance the legal argument that defeats yours.

Mr. Apuzzo, you refused to learn from the legal argument in 2008, then you refused to learn from you own experience. No sense whining that Obots don't provide legal argument. Your ignorance is entirely your choice.

Incidentally, I was not among those explaining Wong in 2008. I found it a tough read.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said:
"If you do not believe me, let us consider a brief filed with the U.S. Supreme Court. Your approach would be to file a brief which contains only a Table of Authorities and no Legal Argument. How far do you think that would get you?"

Darn! I lose another of your imaginary cases.

Consider your actual petition for cert to the U.S. Supreme Court. Your opponents waived response and filed no brief at all. How far did you actually get?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq wrote:
"Maybe you can help me out a bit. As you well know, the question is: what is a 'natural born citizen?' As you also know, Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell maintains that any person who is a born citizen, regardless of how that status was obtained, is a 'natural born citizen.' You agree with him.

I have demonstrated that Maskell can arrive at his argument by only two logical means [...]"

Maskell argues the weight of legal and historical authority, not that he can establish his conclusion by logical deduction. Responding to the Congressional Research Service Memo and Report with syllogisms, fallacies, and a picture of a bust of Aristotle was just nuts.
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.html

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast wrote:
"Also, when I said I would 'pay to see' birthers arguing the merits of their case in court, I was speaking tongue-in-cheek, but completely earnest about wishing them the chance to have their day in court. This isn't baiting anyone into 'real-world demise', it is about teaching birthers the consequences of their actions. If they make false accusations and harm people by making them defend themselves from frivolous lawsuits, then they deserve any sanctions they incur by doing so and if they make false accusations that they are unwilling to stand behind in court, that should be made clear too."

You Hitchhikers Guide Obots think you are so clever. We MPO's like you about as much as the People's Front of Judea liked the Judean People's Front.

The flip side of heaping failure upon themselves is of course the harm you noted to others. I left it out because I don't think most of our audience cares about that. I didn't mean any criticism toward you. It's my personal policy dealing with fringe theories never to encourage them, even in jest.

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

You completely miss (or ignore) my point: John Jay's statement can't be used as evidence that one particular "strong check" was used over another---even if it is the "strongest check". That's like saying that the statement "x is greater than 4" means that x is 10 instead of 5 since 10 is greater than 5. Logically speaking, that does not follow, nor, logically speaking, does Justice Jay's advocacy of a "strong check" imply that the Framers used the strongest possible check.

As for your little tantrum, it's nice to see a dishonest alien who hates the US Constitution and attempts to foment sedition against the lawfully elected President of the United States such as yourself frothing at the mouth and making ridiculous assertions. It makes it perfectly clear which one of us is more credible.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You loudly proclaim: “Ronald Wilson Reagan was a citizen of the United States born after the adoption of the Constitution. According to your 2011 explanation, the grandfather clause said that *any* such person could no longer be President. That's nuts. Reagan was a citizen of the United States and a natural born citizen at the same time. All natural born citizens are.”

Now you have also added some more small talk here.

Who do you think you are fooling? You have again plastered your repetitive nonsense here which does not come close to addressing my arguments in a substantive way. Again, as I have explained to you, what is relevant in interpreting the meaning of a “natural born citizen” is the contemporaneous evidence that existed at or around the time of the framing and ratification of the Constitution. In that connection and among the many points to which I am still waiting for you to respond, I am still looking for you to give me an example from the pre-Civil Rights Act of 1866/Fourteenth Amendment period of a “citizen of the United States,” so called and as defined by and hence existing in any Congressional Act or treaty, who was also a “citizen” or “natural born citizen” as defined by what Minor v. Happersett (1875) called the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution.

In other words, I am challenging you to put your brain where your mouth is and provide me with one such law that called and defined a person such as future President Ronald Reagan, born in the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents, a “citizen of the United States.”

Happy Reagan hunting!

Slartibartfast said...

Unknown,

Belgium!

I've heard Vogon poetry more mellifluous than your writing and seen the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal use better logic. As Thomas Jefferson was a natural born Virginian as well as a French citizen while president, as Spiro Agnew was a natural born Greek and a natural born American every day of his life, as Rafael Cruz was born American, Canadian (eh?), and Cuban, I am both a Monty Obot and a HHGTTG Obot while you are just a tired parrot pining for the fjords (which I designed, by the way). If you don't watch out, you will be first against the wall when the Spanish Inquisition comes (and remember, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition)---and you probably don't even know where your towel is!

SPLITTER!

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

As used in the Constitution, the phrase "citizen of the United States" must have exactly one meaning (as is true of every phrase in the Constitution). This being the case, either natural born citizens are not eligible for Congress (an absurdity) or whenever "citizen of the United States" is used in the Constitution, it includes natural born citizens as well as all other citizens.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

thalightguy said...

"The U.S. Constitution...does not give Congress the Power to establish citizenship for the children born outside of the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents while they remain outside of the U.S. unless by Treaty."

You fail to grasp the fundamental nature of national membership. It is either by law or by nature. For 97% +/- of Americans it is by nature and Congress needed to do nothing to make it so since it was via natural political inheritance.

That means natural belong. Just as children belong to their parents by Natural Law, they also belong to their parents' nation by the same law.
No Congressional statute is needed to grant Americans the right to own their own children, nor for them to belong to their own nation.

The authors of the U.S. Constitution were not in the business of stating the obvious, -and so they didn't.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Unknown said..."Mr. Nash, I support your right to go on proclaiming your irrefutable truths. It's just not my thing."

Indeed it isn't. Truth, especially irrefutable truth, is something that has no appeal for you when it invalidates your naked emperor. Best to avoid it, which you very successfully do.

A.R.Nash wrote:
"I dare them to try."

My mom taught me to ignore those. I was four.

I see, -you always did what your mommy told you. Good for you, now about my resort to a dare to instigate in you a willingness to learn things that you are ignorant of, I apologize for caring. You clearly can't be fix since you are quite contented being ignorant and misinformed about reality. Your consensus world mirage is all that your little mind requires to feel good about itself.


A.R.Nash wrote:
"It is titled: WHAT THE SUPREME COURT SHOULD KNOW BUT DOESN'T"

Mr. Nash, I don't see your writing connecting to reality. That title screams "fantasy world".

You are right...You don't see and never will see because you actually don't care about reality unless it supports your consensus dogma in some distorted way.

Anonymous said...

a.r.nash writes;

Unknown wrote to Mario; Maskell argues the weight of legal and historical authority, not that he can establish his conclusion by logical deduction.
Responding to the Congressional Research Service Memo and Report with syllogisms, fallacies, and a picture of a bust of Aristotle was just nuts." ~ ~ ~

Facts and "logical deduction" are the only means found in what I write about citizenship to arrive at conclusions. You embrace opinions as though they are facts and avoid any exposure to the logical deductions that I've dared you to be exposed to and respond to.

The truth about the meaning of nbc is found ONLY through error-free logical, deduction, but you, like Maskell, avoid them like the plague because you worship only at the alters of the almighty consensus opinion gods. They don't require any actual thought and so it's quite easy to be their devotee. Such is the thought life of the lazy.

New, Friday evening...UNRAVELING THE RAT'S NEST OF CITIZENSHIP CONFUSION (5400 words)

~THE ARROGANT IGNORANCE OF AMERICAN STATISTS

American colonists inherited almost everything from the British, including their monarchical overlords, but there was one thing that was not “British” which was embraced in pre-Revolution America, and adopted as a keystone of the American philosophy of government and civilian civilization, and that was the principles of unalienable Natural Rights.

The founders had read all of the works regarding the Natural Rights of man and those works were not written in support of the monarchy but in opposition to it at the most fundamental level possible since the rights of freemen impinged on the sovereign rights of the otherwise royal dictator.

That’s because the matter was not a question of which of their possible leaders or what kind of leader should have the scepter of power but rather, “what is the only legitimate basis of holding power over one’s fellow man?”

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/02/07/unraveling-the-rats-nest-of-citizenship-confusion/

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"My point is one of quality of evidence when interpreting the Constitution, i.e., contemporaneous evidence from the Founding versus your laws passed in 1866, but you give us a straw man argument, focusing on the fact that a court has more authority when interpreting the Constitution than a private citizen rather than addressing the nature of the evidence that a court relies upon when interpreting the Constitution."

My point trumps your point. The legitimacy of Obama's presidency does not depend on whether he can prove that currently controlling precedents correctly interpret the Framers' intent. He attained the presidency under the law as it is, including judicial interpretations as they are.

As we've seen, every court that reached the merits of your theory rejected it citing U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark. Did you notice, Mr. Apuzzo, how many words they spent justifying that the Wong opinion was correct?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I did not say that Justice Gray did not have any support for his use of the English common law to define a 'natural born citizen.' Rather, what I said and what I still say today is that Justice Gray had no support for his notion that our nation after the American Revolution continued to define our national citizenship under the English common law."

Then my description above was imprecise, though not inaccurate. Perhaps my interpretation of the scope of ALJ Masin's question differs somewhat from yours. None of that changes the utter uselessness of what you said and still say today.

Justice Gray had the support of the majority of the United States Supreme Court.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You said that 'Administrative Courts of the great state of New Jersey do not review whether U.S Supreme Court decisions include sufficient support.' But you fail to tell us support for what?"

Did I need to? You seem to now understand the principle:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Of course, ALJ Masin does not have the authority to question whether the U.S. Supreme Court had sufficient support for anything it may decide. He has to just accept the decision of the highest court of the land. But I never asked ALJ to go beyond his authority as you assert."

Yet when ALJ Masin asked you about a point in the U.S. Supreme Court's opinion on Wong, as delivered by Justice Gray, you replied:

"With all due respect to the United States Supreme Court, and to Justice Grey, there's no support for what he says."
Third Video, ~39:20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JohAu0BR_w0

thalightguy said...

Stranger said…

“The authors of the U.S. Constitution were not in the business of stating the obvious, -and so they didn't”

I wholeheartedly agree.

But, You fail to realize it was not obvious. If it were, the Authors (just three years after the Constitution was adopted) and future Congress’s would not have needed to invoke their Constitutional Naturalization Power (Unconstitutional after ratification of the 14th Amendment) to establish these children as citizens at birth.

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...
"As used in the Constitution, the phrase "citizen of the United States" must have exactly one meaning (as is true of every phrase in the Constitution). This being the case, either natural born citizens are not eligible for Congress (an absurdity) or whenever "citizen of the United States" is used in the Constitution, it includes natural born citizens as well as all other citizens."

Response:

The Constitution makes a clear distinction between degrees/levels of allegiance of "citizens of the United States".

Per Article II, those COTUS who lack the higher allegiance of other COTUS who are NBCOTUS, are not eligible for the office of POTUS.

Allegiance to US.
"citizen of the United States" who are not NB = 1 allegiance point = eligible for office of representative and no higher.

NB "citizen of the United States" = 2 allegiance points = eligible for office of representative, and BECAUSE of a higher allegiance as NB, eligible also for the office of POTUS.

Think of it like..... an English "natural born subject" is analogous to a US native-born "citizen of the United States".

The English did not have a president and therefore did not have a term descriptive of one who might be eligible for office as a president of a republic, they had no measure of allegiance that would make one eligible for a president of a republic.

The English only had measures of allegiance for eligibility as subjects of a monarch.

Given that the Framers of the USC generally used the language of the English common law, why would the Framers' chosen description for one who would be an eligible citizen for the office of a president of a republic, be in any way associated with an English description which describes one who would eligible merely as a subject of a monarch?

It is an absolutely absurd notion that the Framers would adopt an English term that describes a subject to a monarch and use it to describe a person who would be eligible for president of a republic.

BTW Kev, native-birth and US citizen parents as required criteria for NBC is not necessarily the "strongest check" and could actually be a "strong check" that Jay was referring to.

"strongest check" could be native-birth plus US citizen parents plus 40 years of age plus 21 years a resident plus married to a US citizen by birth, plus, etc, plus, etc.

It is more likely that Jay considered native-birth to aliens as a weak check, i.e. NOT a "strong check"

Kev, you are still playing your silly little word games in your desperate traitorous defense of a lying fraud usurper.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

You just keep repeating your contention (which is erroneous) that Wong Kim Ark is dispositive of the "natural born citizen" issue and how New Jersey ALJ Masin correctly relied upon that case.

In Wong Kim Ark, the Court was asked to consider whether a person born in the United States to Chinese alien parents was a “citizen of the United States” at birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. That is the only legal question that was involved in the case because being a “citizen of the United States” under that Amendment was the only thing that Wong needed in order to stop his deportation. In other words, there was no need for Wong to be a “natural born citizen” in order for him to win his case. Justice Gray cautioned as much as possible as to how far his decision should be taken. I have already posted here the Court’s limited “single question” and holding and will not repeat it. Despite the Court’s instruction as to the limited nature of the question it answered and its holding, there are those like you who argue that Wong Kim Ark expanded upon the definition of a “natural born citizen” beyond what Minor said that definition was, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. In other words, these people say that the Wong Court decided something that goes beyond what the Court told us it was deciding. But a careful reading of Wong Kim Ark demonstrates that the Court did not change Minor’s definition of a “natural born citizen.” Rather, what it did was hold that a person born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents is included as a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. It did not hold that such a “citizen of the United States” is also a “natural born citizen.”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I explained to Unknown that until Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, Congress never defined a person born in the United States under any circumstances who it called a “citizen of the United States” such that a “natural born citizen” also met that definition.

I asked Unknown for an example from the pre-Civil Rights Act of 1866/Fourteenth Amendment period of a “citizen of the United States,” so called and as defined by and hence existing in any Congressional Act or treaty, who was also a “citizen” or “natural born citizen” as defined by what Minor v. Happersett (1875) called the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. She has not responded to me, but you have in your limited way. But you are also evading addressing the question that I posed to Unknown.
You have not been able to find that example that I asked for. Rather you say that there must have been “citizens of the United States” who were also “natural born citizens” or else under Article I, Section 2 and 3, a “natural born citizen” could not be a member of Congress.

First, you have not been able to find any law that defines this mystical “citizen of the United States” such that he also satisfies the common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

Second, you fall into the same logical mistake as Ballantine and Unknown by not understanding that all “natural born citizens” are “citizens” and therefore must also “citizens of the United States,” but not all “citizens” or “citizens of the United States” are “natural born citizens.” Again, all “natural born citizens” are “citizens” and therefore must also “citizens of the United States,” for all such “citizens” are necessarily “citizens” and therefore must also be “citizens of the United States.” Also, again, a “natural born citizen” is a “citizen” and therefore must also be a “citizen of the United States.” A “citizen” or “citizen of the United States” is not necessarily a “natural born citizen,” for not all such “citizens” are “natural born citizens.” So, it is evident that a “natural born citizen” is necessarily also a “citizen” and “citizen of the United States,” which makes such a “citizen” eligible to be a member of Congress without having to accept your position that in the pre-Civil Rights Act of 1866/Fourteenth Amendment period there must have been “citizens of the United States” who were also “natural born citizens” or else under Article I, Section 2 and 3, a “natural born citizen” could not be a member of Congress. So, you are still going to have to provide a real example of such a “citizen of the United States” rather than provide us with your imaginary “must” “citizen of the United States.”

Finally, what is telling of the sincerity of your position on the meaning of a “natural born citizen” is that you state: “As used in the Constitution, the phrase ‘citizen of the United States’ must have exactly one meaning (as is true of every phrase in the Constitution). I have been telling you that for years with respect to the Framers’ definition of a “natural born citizen,” but you and your Obot gang say that while a child born in the country to parents who are its citizens is a “natural born citizen,” that is not the only meaning of the clause and add that U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) added another definition to the clause, i.e., a child born in the United States to alien parents. So what happened to your “one meaning (as is true of every phrase in the Constitution).” I have also demonstrated that Wong Kim Ark did no such thing. So, you also fail here.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

You fail to realize it was not obvious. If it were, the Authors (just three years after the Constitution was adopted) and future Congress’s would not have needed to invoke their Constitutional Naturalization Power

A refresher course~

You fail to grasp the fundamental nature of national membership which was obvious to the founders and framers and thus didn't need to be stated.

Citizenship is either by LAW or by NATURE.

For 97% +/- of Americans it is by NATURE and Congress needed to do nothing to make it so since it was so via natural political inheritance.

That means NATURAL BELONGING.
Just as children belong to their parents by Natural Law, they also belong to their parents' nation by the same law.

No Congressional statute was needed to grant Americans the right to own their own children, nor for them to belong to their own nation.

"-future Congresses would not have needed to invoke their Constitutional Naturalization Power"

Wow! Doubly incorrect. No Congress has constitutionally invoked a power that they do not possess.
Review the refresher course. All Congress did was state on the record the FACT that American children, regardless of birth location, are natural born citizens.

It did not make them into citizens since they were that by birth, but because people who do not understand Natural Law might think as you think, they made their natural citizenship clear in writing.
Just because they said it does not mean that they made it so via a Power they were not given by the Constitution. You ought to read and understand what mandate Congress was give.
Congress had no naturalization nor immigration authority. They were totally matters for State officials.

All Congress could do was to make them uniform by establishing uniform standards to be administered by the States.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti wrote;
"-or whenever "citizen of the United States" is used in the Constitution, it includes natural born citizens as well as all other citizens."

Of course, but what Art.II Sec.I delineates is not "Citizens of the United States" but "Citizens of the United States at the time of the adoption". They included NBCs but those who were not could not be eligible after the adoption date.
~
~from a 2006 Congressional Hearing:
John Fonte, Senior Fellow at the Hudson Institute.
"We are a civic, not an ethnic nation. American citizenship is not based on belonging to a particular ethnicity, but on political loyalty to American democracy.

Regimes based on ethnicity support the doctrine of perpetual allegiance, for one is always a member of the ethnic nation. In 1812, Americans went to war against the concept of the ethnic nation and the doctrine of perpetual allegiance.

At this time, Great Britain under the slogan "Once an Englishman, always an Englishman" refused to recognize the renunciation clause of our citizenship oath.

Dual allegiance violates a core American principle of equality of citizenship.

[notice that phrase: EQUALITY OF CITIZENSHIP! I might have mentioned it a time or ten. It is the basis of the American legal fiction of natural-ization; -being remade into a natural American citizen. All natural citizens are equal. There is no legal recognition of any difference.]

Dual citizens are specially privileged, supra-citizens who have voting power in more than one nation and special privileges like EU privileges that the majority of their fellow American citizens do not have.
Now, most Americans instinctively recognize something is wrong with this situation and that it mocks our concept of equality of citizenship.

Dual citizens exist in a political space beyond the U.S. Constitution.

As members of foreign constitutional communities, they have different and, in some cases, competing and conflicting responsibilities, interests and commitments."
~ ~ ~
They are not born with no direct attachments to any nation except the United States. They may be born as first-generation natives but so were the Native Americans,-and they weren't natural born citizens either.

thalightguy said...

Stanger said…

“…Just because they said it does not mean that they made it so via a Power…”

Your thought process is illogical, why, because this Power you say does not exist was invoked in such a manner in the year 1802 that it denied “at birth citizenship” to all prospective children who were born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents.

This Act was in effect until it was repealed by the Act of 1855 where, once again, Congress invoked their Constitutional Naturalization Power to establish citizenship for these children on the stipulation that their father be a U.S. citizen but not to a father who had never resided in the United States. (SEE: Montana v. Kennedy - 366 U.S. 308 (1961))

So, for a period of fifty three years no person born outside the U.S. to citizen parents was born at birth with citizenship. But, yet, you want me to believe they were “natural born Citizens”, it’s illogical.

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash said:

"You are NOT "too busy" to address my revelations. You just can't without revealing your own stupefication and vacuity regarding the reality you oppose."

I never said I was too busy to address your "revelations"---I said I was too busy to answer Mario's challenge at that point.

The reason I don't address everything you say is that nothing you say is of any consequence whatsoever. Anyone who fails to see that your theories are completely unsupported in law or fact, fails to notice the internal contradictions and believes that you understand the intent of the Founders in a way that no one else has for the last two centuries is clearly too irrational and incompetent to accomplish anything of significance.

Face it, your theories are idiotic. In fact, that is probably the only thing that everyone here (besides yourself, of course) can agree on.

Just to give an example of how pathetic your arguments are, let's look at the comment I quoted from above...

First, you characterized my quoting of President Madison as "Slarti barfed". Everyone with half a brain understands that what Madison thought is significant (if you are trying to understand the intent of the Framers, the words of the "Father of the Constitution" are a good place to start) whereas nothing you say has any significance, not to mention rationality, coherence, or factuality, whatsoever.

Then you ask me to "Understand two things". First, that "Allegiance is not citizenship and citizenship is not allegiance". This is true, but apparently you haven't been listening to what MichaelN has been endlessly droning on about---namely that it is not birth on the soil per se that makes one natural born, but rather birth in the allegiance of the country. In other words, Madison is saying that where someone is born is the best way to tell if they were born in the allegiance of the country which, by MichaelN's argument from Calvin's case, implies that those born on US soil (excepting diplomats and invaders) are natural born.

Then you try to argue that Madison was speaking as a Virginian rather than an American because he was too biased. Someone is clearly biased here, but it isn't President Madison. Since he says, "this is what applies in the United States", it is clear to all but complete imbeciles that he is not talking about Virginia, but rather the country as a whole.

You seem to be deluded into thinking that only Virginia (and three other unnamed states) recognized jus soli citizenship. This is patently false. It is undeniable that all 13 colonies recognized jus soli up until the Revolution (Calvin's case being binding precedent in the colonies). If any of the several states had changed this rule, they would have had to... well... change it. If that had happened, you could show us the statute which accomplished that change. Since said statutes don't exist (and statutes like the Virginia law written by Thomas Jefferson himself directly contradict the idea that they abandoned jus soli), your position is completely without support.

Seriously, it's long past time that you put on your big girl pants and admit that you've got nothing.

I saw a sign today and thought of you. It said:

"Obama is not a brown-skinned anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare... you're thinking of Jesus"

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

You want me to find a law that defines a "citizen of the United States" in a way that includes natural born citizens? Sure: Article I, Section 2, paragraph 2 of the US Constitution reads

"No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen."

This implicitly defines a citizen of the United States as someone eligible for the House of Representatives (once they are of age). Clearly, natural born citizens (over the age of 25) meet this criteria. Likewise Article I, Section 3, paragraph 3 regarding the Senate. The grandfather clase in Article II, Section 1, paragraph 5 doesn't count because while all of our early presidents were both "Citizens of the United States at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" and "natural born Citizens", according the the clause either would have sufficed.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

You accuse me of having multiple definitions of "natural born"---that is not the case. In fact, there has only been one definition, but it has changed over time (which, by analogy to "natural born subject", is what the Founders intended when they used the term in my opinion).

Here is how I believe the term "natural born" has evolved over time:

[Note to Mr. Nash: the following is what I believe---you can say that you think what I believe isn't true, but you can't say that this isn't what I believe. I'm the ultimate authority on what I think. You have had problems understanding this concept in the past.]

pre-revolution: those born on the soil as specified by the common law (i.e. Calvin's case) and those born of the blood as specified by statute.

Declaration of Independence: The natural born subjects of the colonies became natural born citizens of the several states. Each state gained the ability to change the rules as they saw fit, but none of them made any law which altered the basic principle of jus soli citizenship.

Adoption of the Constitution: The common law principle of jus soli was adopted implicitly by using the term "natural born" without specifically defining it. The Congress was charged with creating a uniform law for statutory citizenship (common law citizenship was still uniform, so the Founders apparently found it unnecessary to charge Congress to codify it). Statutory citizenship was still according to state law.

Naturalization Act of 1790: Congress set a uniform law for those born outside the country (and for aliens becoming citizens after their births). They specified that those born offshore (and covered by the Act) were natural born citizens. This Act did not effect anyone born inside the US. At this point there were 3 distinct classes of citizens: those naturalized by the principle of jus soli; those naturalized at birth by statute; and those naturalized by statute after birth. The first two groups are the natural born citizens while the last group is alien born.

Subsequent acts: While the exact language of "natural born" was dropped, the principle remained (as noted by Unknown). Anyone born a citizen, whether by statute or by jus soli was natural born.

Dred Scott v. Sandford: African-Americans were excluded from jus soli citizenship.

14th Amendment: jus soli citizenship was extended to African-Americans. Apart from this, no one else's citizenship status was changed in any way.

Minor v. Happersett: Doubts were expressed regarding the extension of jus soli to the native-born children of aliens. The SCOTUS specifically declined to address these doubts.

Chinese Exclusion Act: Chinese people were barred from naturalization. [interesting side question: would the child of a US citizen (who would ordinarily be a citizen by statute) and a Chinese subject born outside the country have been a citizen?]

Wong Kim Ark: jus soli citizenship was acknowledged to include the children of Chinese subjects. No one else's citizenship status was changed in any way. The doubts of Minor were resolved in favor of the native-born children of aliens.

At no point in any of this does it matter who any other nation claims as a citizen at birth.

A map of nations which recognize jus soli citizenship. Notice that the United States is shown to have "Unconditional birthright citizenship for persons born in the country". A cursory look at the history of this Wikipedia page shows that it has been around long before 2008---I guess the conspiracy can plan out minor details far in advance but forges an unnecessary document in the stupidest way possible.

Slartibartfast said...

So what does this all mean in terms of Presidential eligibility?

Here are some highlights:

Thomas Jefferson: Natural born Virginian by jus soli, later became a natural born American and a naturalized French citizen.

Chester A. Arthur: Natural born American by jus soli. Presumably Natural born subject of the English throne by statute.

Spiro Agnew: Natural born American by jus soli. Natural born Greek via his father.

Barack Obama: Natural born citizen by jus soli. No objective, knowledgeable and rational person has ever doubted this. Arguably natural-born by statue even if born overseas (either because his mother's first marriage was invalid due to her husband's bigamy or because of later statutes being applied retroactively).

John McCain: Natural born by statute. He was also politically bulletproof because he was the child of an active-duty member of the military and a US citizen. Made clear by Senate resolution that his eligibility wouldn't be questioned by his opponents.

Rafael Cruz: Natural born Canadian by jus soli (in the process of renouncing this citizenship). Presumably natural born Cuban via his father. Natural born American by statute via his mother. Eligible for the presidency but highly unlikely to win it.

Piyush Jindal: Natural born citizen by jus soli. Presumably natural born Indian via both parents. No longer eligible for the presidency after his response to the State of the Union made it clear that he couldn't win a presidential election.

Marco Antonio Rubio: Natural born citizen by jus soli. Presumably natural born Cuban via both parents.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Just to wrap up my last couple of comments, I believe that any attempt to legally question the natural born status of jus soli citizens is frivolous and any licensed attorney doing so will be putting themselves at risk of incurring sanctions. I also think that while a non-frivolous argument can be made against the natural born status of those born citizens outside the country, it would ultimately prove unsuccessful in court.

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

Seeing that "perpetual allegiance" was US policy until long after the war of 1812 (i.e. the US didn't recognize a person's right to expatriation), your comment is nothing but complete BS. Which makes it indistinguishable from any of your theories.

Slartibartfast said...

Cleaning up a loose end or three...

MichaelN said:

"How come, if it has always been that native-born really means natural born, that the INA uses "native-born" to describe the native-born, shouldn't they be using "natural born" by now?"

"Native-born citizen" has been frequently used as synonymous with "natural born citizen" in court rulings, textbooks, statutes and legal commentary for the simple reason that, in the vast majority of cases, the two are synonymous.

All native born citizens are natural born citizens (native born children of diplomats or enemy invaders are not citizens) and while foreign-born citizens are also natural born, they are relatively few in number compared to native-born citizens.

A couple of challenges for the birthers here:

Find a textbook on US government which mentions the two citizen parent requirement. There are literally dozens (probably hundreds) that are consistent with the views of anti-birthers, but not a single one supporting the birthers has come to light.

Find naturalization records for a native-born child of foreign parents. Just one. It had to have happened before the 14th Amendment, so you shouldn't have any problem with privacy laws since anyone involved would be dead.

The simple fact is that, if the birthers were right, these two challenges would be easy to answer. What conclusions can be reasonably drawn from the failure to answer either one in over five years?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I asked you to find in the period before the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment were adopted a statute or treaty or any other law that defines a "citizen of the United States" in a way that also qualifies that person as a “natural born citizen” under the common law definition of the clause provided by Minor v. Happersett (1875).

You said: “Sure: Article I, Section 2, paragraph 2 of the US Constitution reads

"No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States, and who shall not, when elected, be an Inhabitant of that State in which he shall be chosen."

This implicitly defines a citizen of the United States as someone eligible for the House of Representatives (once they are of age). Clearly, natural born citizens (over the age of 25) meet this criteria. Likewise Article I, Section 3, paragraph 3 regarding the Senate. The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, paragraph 5 doesn't count because while all of our early presidents were both "Citizens of the United States at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution" and "natural born Citizens", according the the clause either would have sufficed. “

Your answer proves nothing because I already said that all “natural born citizens” are also “citizens” which also make them “citizens of the United States” and therefore eligible to be members of Congress. So, I am still waiting for you to find and cite here that law.

Also, produce something of substance rather than just bravado BS.

MichaelN said...

thalightguy said...

"Your thought process is illogical, why, because this Power you say does not exist was invoked in such a manner in the year 1802 that it denied “at birth citizenship” to all prospective children who were born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents."

Reply:

Well here is the relevant part of the act of 1802, and it seems you are wrong.

The 1802 act............

"SEC 4 And be it further enacted That the children of persons duly naturalized under any of the laws of the United States or who previous to the passing of any law on that subject by the government of the United States may have become citizens of any one of the said states under the laws thereof being under the age of twenty one years at the time of their parents being so naturalized or admitted to the rights of citizenship shall if dwelling in the United States be considered as citizens of the United States and the children of persons who now are or have been citizens of the United States shall though born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States be considered as citizens of the United States provided That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never resided within the United States Provided also that no person heretofore proscribed by any state or who has been legally convicted of having joined the army of Great Britain during the late war shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid without the consent of the legislature of the state in which such person was proscribed"

thalightguy said...

Mario,

There is no doubt the definition of a “natural born Citizen” is the same today as when the Founders inserted the term into the Constitution. Why, because it has never been affected by a Constitutional Amendment and Congress does not have the authority to change it, no more than they have the authority to change how old a person must be or how long a person must be a resident to be eligible for the Presidency.

With this known, I now have support for the “Epiphany” I had earlier.

The Constitution as amended clearly defines who the “citizens of the United States” are. The first section of the 14th Amendment reads, “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside”.

So, just as Congress does not have the authority to change the definition of who a “natural born Citizen” is, they do not have the authority to change the definition of who the “Citizens of the United States” are.

Thus, clearly limiting Congress’s Power to establish an Uniform Rule of Naturalization to only include “persons in the United States”.

Do you concur, please explain.

thalightguy said...

MichaelN,

Please explain how I am wrong.

The Act clearly prevents any future persons born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents from obtaining U.S. citizenship at birth.

You highlighted the words, “the children of persons who NOW ARE or HAVE BEEN citizens of the United States shall though born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States be considered as citizens of the United States”.

As you can see I have capitalized, “NOW ARE” AND “HAVE BEEN”, this wording only allows for past and present persons, it does not include the future children born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

I of II

Slartibartfast, Unknown, and Stranger all tell us that a person born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural born citizens.” In other words, they maintain that birth in the United States is not a necessary condition of being a “natural born citizen.”
They are wrong simply based on how the common law defined a “natural born citizen.” Minor explained that this was the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. Minor said that this common law provided that a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens was not only a “citizen” like the child’s parents, but also a “natural born citizen,” and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners.” Hence, at common law, anyone born out of the United States was alien born and therefore could not possibly be a “citizen” let alone a “natural born citizen.”

Thalightguy is correct to cite, among other things, the 1802 Act as additional evidence to prove them wrong. Thalightguy is mostly correct in saying that Congress in the year 1802 denied at birth citizenship “to all prospective children who were born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents." I will explain why he is not completely correct.

I will quote the 1802 Act again for convenience:

"SEC 4 And be it further enacted That the children of persons duly naturalized under any of the laws of the United States or who previous to the passing of any law on that subject by the government of the United States may have become citizens of any one of the said states under the laws thereof being under the age of twenty one years at the time of their parents being so naturalized or admitted to the rights of citizenship shall if dwelling in the United States be considered as citizens of the United States and the children of persons who now are or have been citizens of the United States shall though born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States be considered as citizens of the United States provided That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never resided within the United States Provided also that no person heretofore proscribed by any state or who has been legally convicted of having joined the army of Great Britain during the late war shall be admitted a citizen as aforesaid without the consent of the legislature of the state in which such person was proscribed."

Where thalightguy erred is in not saying that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who had that status in 1802 or before continued to be recognized as “citizens of the United States.” But any children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who acquired that status after 1802 were alien born under the new Act. This means that as all the older U.S. citizen parents died off, there would be no more children born out of the United States, even if born to U.S. citizen parents, accepted as “citizens of the United States” from the time of their birth. Rather, such children could become U.S. citizens only by satisfying Congress’s Acts of naturalization under which they could become “citizens of the United States” but only after their birth.

The Naturalization Act of 1795, which was a product of the heavy hand of then-Representative James Madison and the approval of President George Washington, had removed the “shall be considered as natural born citizens” status from any child born out of the United States, even if born to U.S. citizen parents, and replaced it with “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” Now Congress in 1802 even removed the citizenship status all together from such children.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

The American common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth, along with these early naturalization acts, demonstrate that jus soli was a requirement to be satisfied by anyone wanting to be a “natural born citizen.”
Slartibartfast, Unknown, and Stranger all tell us that a person born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural born citizens.” But in light of such evidence as these Acts and how the common law defined a “natural born citizen,” there is simply no support for their theory.

But not only are Slartibartfast and Unknown wrong about the place of birth factor. They are also wrong in their position that birth to U.S. citizen parents is not a necessary condition to be satisfied in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” With these early naturalization Acts also treating children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and that same American common law rule requiring birth to “citizen” parents, the other requirement to be met in order to be a “natural born citizen” was birth to U.S. “citizen” parents.

So this evidence, being the American common law and the early Acts of Congress, along with the fact that there did not exist any statute or treaty defining a “citizen of the United States” which definition also satisfied the American common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” all points to the conclusion that a “natural born citizen” was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth and that any person designated by Congress in any of its Acts or treaties as a “citizen of the United States” who did not also meet that common law definition of the clause was only a “citizen of the United States” and not also a “natural born citizen.” This all means that the definition of a “natural born citizen” was well fixed by American common law and that such definition was also implicitly acknowledged and confirmed by Acts of Congress, and that that definition required both birth in the country and birth to U.S. citizen parents.

Finally, the Civil Rights Act of 1866, the Fourteenth Amendment, and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) did not change Minor’s definition of a “natural born citizen,” for these laws and decision only abrogated the American common law definition of a “citizen,” by providing that even children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents are also included as “citizens of the United States” from the moment of their birth. These sources did not change the definition of a “natural born citizen,” which continued to be provided by constitutional national common law, with that definition still to this day being a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Ray said...

Thalightguy,

According to Chester Arthur persons born within the United States born subject to a foreign power require naturalization.

"A uniform rule of naturalization" such as the Constitution contemplates should, among other things, clearly define the status of persons born within the United States subject to a foreign power and of minor children of fathers who have declared their intention to become citizens but have failed to perfect their naturalization. [...] A just and uniform law in this respect would strengthen the hands of the Government in protecting its citizens abroad and would pave the way for the conclusion of treaties of naturalization with foreign countries." President Chester Arthur, Fourth Annual Message, Dec 1, 1894.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thalightguy,

The Fourteenth Amendment is not the only law that defines “citizens of the United States.” Clearly, with the Constitution giving it exclusive power over the subject matter, Congress since 1790 has also defined who the “citizens of the United States” are. The Fourteenth Amendment only constitutionalizes the rule that persons born or naturalized in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” are both “citizens of the United States” and the state in which they reside. With the Fourteenth Amendment so providing, Congress has no power to say otherwise.

Section 5 of the Amendment provides: “The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.” It is an open issue whether Congress could legislate in the area by defining by statute the meaning of “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” The constitutional question is whether by passing such legislation would Congress be simply enforcing the amendment or actually amending it which it cannot do by statute.

Other than the power that the Fourteenth Amendment takes away from Congress as explained above, the Fourteenth Amendment does not take away any additional power from Congress given to it by the original Constitution. That power includes and is not limited to deciding which persons born out of the United States shall also be “citizens of the United States.” This power includes the power to make of qulifying persons born out of the United States “citizens of the United States” at birth or after birth. We have seen Congress exercise this power, considering qualifying children “natural born citizens,” then “citizens of the United States,” then alien born, and back to “citizens of the United States” where it stands today.

One final point while we are on the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress. Historically, the American common law definition of a “citizen” was the same as that of a “natural born citizen.” With the two being tied together, the former was limited by the latter which meant that only children born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth were “citizens” and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners.” The Fourteenth Amendment, Acts of Congress, and treaties only impact upon the American common law definition of a “citizen,” by abrogating it. They do not act upon the common law definition of a “natural born citizen.” The Fourteenth Amendment did not amend the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen.” And Congress does not have the constitutional power to change that constitutional common law definition by statute. With neither a constitutional amendment nor decision of the U.S. Supreme Court amending that original definition, this means that the original constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen” has never been changed and still prevails today.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes;

The 1802 act...

"SEC 4 And be it further enacted That the children of persons duly naturalized under any of the laws of the United States or who previous to the passing of any law on that subject by the government of the United States may have become citizens of any one of the said states under the laws thereof..."

Now that is very disturbing... the magnitude of their arrogance of power! Remember, a half decade earlier, an unAmerican statist Congress had passed the wretched Alien and Seditions Acts. King George would have approved of their tyrannical over-reach.

"duly naturalized under any of the laws of the United States..." For real? No one was naturalized by any law of the U.S. because no one was naturalized by law, period. They were naturalized by State magistrates who administered the Oath of Allegiance & Renunciation.

Now here's a new thought for you, one I'll be mentioning in my final exposition; naturalization was via the oath alone. One had to have already satisfied the residency and character requirements, but they did not make one an American. The OATH ITSELF DID!
It, like a marriage vow, created the new identity. It bound one to America for life (or until willful expatriation, -like divorce)

It produced the transformation from a foreigner into an American because of the power of the words that were required to be spoken as a solemn vow before man and God. The words were transformative, -not the "uniform rule of naturalization".

The Congressmen who wrote that 1802 Act had power going to their heads, -power that they did not possess.

"duly naturalized under any of the laws..." What? There was more than one? I think not. Each repealed the one before it. Morons.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

I see you're trying to obfuscate your position here (which you generally do to try to hide a logical fallacy), so let me state my position clearly: In the Constitution, whenever the term "Citizen of the United States" is used in the Constitution it refers to every US citizen (though it may be later qualified, i.e. "at the time of Adoption of this Constitution" or "at least 25 years of age"). Honestly, I'm not sure what your position is, but you either agree with this (in which case I'm unsure why you keep harping on it) or you need to explain how we are supposed to tell when "Citizen of the United States" does and does not include natural born citizens.

I suspect that your obfuscation is an attempt to muddy the waters to make your claim that the 14th Amendment created a new class of citizens seem more reasonable, which is somewhat ridiculous since, by your definition or mine, the 14th Amendment covers most if not all natural born citizens when it refers to "All persons born [...] in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof". The SCOTUS could have saved us all a lot of trouble by just saying that Virginia Minor was a citizen via the 14th Amendment in their dicta (or just noting the point since both sides agreed that she was a citizen). In fact, only those born citizens outside of the United States do not derive their citizenship via the 14th Amendment.

You have clarified your challenge, however---it is an attempt to "beg the question" by getting us to accept that the court in Minor gave a definition. A definition is both a necessary and a sufficient condition and the SCOTUS only gave a sufficient condition and explicitly refused to determine if the condition was necessary as well, so the answer to your challenge is that it is a trick question: no definition was provided by the court in Minor.

I've presented a timeline of the meaning of "natural born" and how it changes from the point where we all agree (natural born subjects before the Revolution) to the present which is clear, internally consistent and in agreement with the Constitution, all statutes, all judicial rulings, all textbooks, and the words and actions of Justices O'Connor, Jay, Roberts, Scalia and Thomas, President Madison, President Jefferson, the Heritage Foundation and many, many more, not to mention the interpretation of every credible Constitutional scholar (really the interpretation of everyone before 2008).

I don't believe that you can present a similarly complete theory of how citizenship in the US has evolved as it will necessarily produce a plethora of contradictions, each requiring special pleading to explain (like Mr. Nash saying that President Madison was really talking about Virginia when he said "the United States"). Just a few things I'd like to see you try to explain away: the state's argument that ruling Wong Kim Ark a citizen would make him eligible for the presidency; the discussion in the debates about the 14th Amendment that makes it clear that the Amendment is merely declaratory of existing law; Judge Masin's opinion; the Ankeny ruling; Justice O'Connor's statements; President Madison's quote about place of birth being the "most certain" criterion of allegiance; the lack of concern about the citizenship of the fathers of Chester A. Arthur and Spiro Agnew (not to mention Agnew's Greek citizenship); the lack of a single person who supports President Obama but thinks that he is ineligible while many people don't support President Obama but believe him to be eligible; how you're going to convince Congress that the president isn't natural born when their own research arm says he is; and, last but not least, all of the arguments that you quite obviously lost on Jonathan Turley's blog 4 years ago.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes;

Slarti opined: "Here is how I believe the term "natural born" has evolved over time."

Therein lies your problem; -there is NO SUCH TERM! Until you understand that you will remain self-deluded.
There is only "Natural Citizen" and born citizen, (or born a citizen) -and the combination of the two.
Natural modifies citizen; -NOT born.
"Pretty young woman" Does pretty modify young or modify woman? Is there such a term as "pretty young"?
"Foolish old man" Does foolish modify old or modify man? Is there such a term as "foolish old"? HELL NO! There also is no such term as "natural born". You are trying to figure out something that doesn't exist.

What does exist is "natural-born" with a big fat hyphen in between, -as in natural-born athlete.
Now, tell me what justification could one give for underlining the word born in natural-born athlete? NONE!!! And yet John Jay had a very powerful reason to underline born.
It showed that one must be more than a fiction-of-law natural citizen via the doctrine of citizenship equality after being natural-ized directly or indirectly through one's father or through permission of law beginning at birth.
One must be BORN as a natural citizen. And what is a natural citizen? A citizen by blood. A family member by blood. A clan member by blood. A guild member by blood. A State citizen by blood. A national citizen by blood. That is NATURAL LAW. Natural has no other meaning.

Just consider if you were Edward Snowden. Is there a threat that your citizenship, like your passport, could be revoked? The answer is doubly "no", because governments of free nations know they possess no power to terminate something that is beyond their control, -that being the political nature with which one is born.

It can't be changed like clothing since it (-their nationality) is an element of one's political nature. No so for those who are not citizens by blood, -in principle, though not in practice in the U.S. But it is so in practice in other countries.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes;

Slarti asserted: "It is undeniable that all 13 colonies recognized jus soli up until the Revolution. [yes, in fact no one is denying it, so why even mention it?] If any of the several states had changed this rule, they would have had to... well... change it. If that had happened, you could show us the statute which accomplished that change. Since said statutes don't exist ...your position is completely without support."

It is without support because I have not supported it with copious research into original State constitutions, though I've looked at several available. But your claim that citizenship statutes making citizenship by descent state law do not exist is equally totally without support. You have a big fat beam in your own eye!

You need to realize that all States passed Constitutions that dealt with citizenship. It was NOT left up to old uncodified English common law.
I seem to recall that what I found in them was that citizenship by descent was automatically passed on to younger generations, while citizenship by law had to be spelled-out in the Constitution as an added allowance of law, or later via State statute.

But here's the thing, even if most states allowed jus soli citizenship, it was only for a sliver of a fraction of the population (1% +/-) that was born of immigrants and not natural citizens, but regardless of State laws allowing un-natural citizenship by law, the federal government did not recognize it for constitutional purposes, -meaning the presidency.
The 25th Amendment included jus soli alien-born citizens as unqualified, -in my opinion, -no proof either way. Qualification required electing only the children of Americans, -not foreigners. Why would that NOT be the case?
The American doctrine of "citizenship equality" related to equal civil rights. Being President is not a civil right or else they would have omitted the word "natural" which is far outside of the legal realm.

No native-born alien-fathered British subject was allowed into a position involving top national secrets or command of units crucial to national survival. They simply weren't willing to risk it. Why would we have?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti claimed: "The Congress was charged with creating a uniform law for statutory citizenship (common law citizenship was still uniform, so the Founders apparently found it unnecessary to charge Congress to codify it)."

There was no "IT"! You are more clueless than you can grasp. There was no "citizenship" until there were citizens. That happened only upon July 4, 1776. Then newly rebelled colonies began writing State constitutions based on the principles of democratic republics.

"Common law" always meant British common law, but it had nothing whatsoever to do with free CITIZENS unbeholden to any monarch. So...there was no "common law citizenship" because "common" only refers to the commonality of the rule of British dominion.

There was no American dominion. There was only State dominion. All citizenship was State citizenship. Congress was given no authority over the natural native inhabitants of the States. It was only empowered to make the state naturalization statutes conform to a uniform rule for making foreign men into American men (along with their families as derivative citizens via jus sanguinis, -although wives weren't even mentioned).

"Act of 1790: Congress set a uniform law for those born outside the country" That's asinine. "a uniform law"? Really? That is absurd. Did it have to take all of the conflicting state laws for American children who weren't born on American soil and toss them all out so that they could make a new uniform rule?... -a rule that codified all of the requirements for recognition as American citzens? Well there weren't any requirements. There was only an emphatic declaration that they are eligible to be President (-or the logical equivalent). Which is EXACTLY what they meant to convey.

"At this point there were 3 distinct classes of citizens: those naturalized by the principle of jus soli; those naturalized at birth by statute; and those naturalized by statute after birth. The first two groups are the natural born citizens while the last group is alien born."

That is without doubt the most foul, and stupid thing I've ever read from someone with at least half a brain. You wrote that all citizens are naturalized. That presents you with a problem.

You haven't a clue what naturalized even means. Same with the word "natural". They don't and can't exist in your little delusional world.
All you have is your little made-up dogma of what they mean and that is all that supports your nonsense. In your Bizarro world, they cannot possible mean what they mean. They must mean something else or else your fantasy world collapses.

Understand this, knucklehead, the founders of nations do NOT naturalize themselves. They ARE the nation. And their children inherit their same position. The are NOT aliens in need of conversion into Americans via being changed from foreign citizens into natural American citizens via being natural-ized. THEY WERE BORN AS AMERICANS!!! Above & beyond all naturalization law.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues:

Slarti burped: "Anyone born a citizen, whether by statute or by jus soli was natural born."

Jus soli IS by statute! Parentage is not an element of jus soli so there would be no "or". All would be citizens by jus soli and / or statute. Duh!
Unless... the alien-born were viewed as different from the citizen-born. If the jus soli citizen-born Americans were natural citizens not needing any statute, then that would make the alien-born foreigner-fathered Americans unnatural citizens. IOW, not natural born citizens. What could be more obvious than that?
Only an idiot who doesn't understand what natural means would think that an alien outsider could produce a natural member of any group, whether your family or your nation. Man! This is so elementary.

"the history of this Wikipedia page shows that it ["Unconditional birthright citizenship for persons born in the country"] has been around long before 2008"

Duh! I've repeated a hundred times that the national institutionalized error goes all the way back to at least 1899 and the dictate of the Attorney General (John Griggs) that everyone born in the U.S. is a U.S. citizen. That is an indisputable fact! How about you update your knowledge a little bit?

"So what does this all mean in terms of Presidential eligibility?" It means you haven't a clue as to what "natural" means, and thus everything built on your imaginary false foundation is a pure fantasy.

It's like you're possessed. A mental block preventing grasping the truth that's right in front of your face. Natural means NATURAL! Conveyed by blood. Connection, relationship, bond, membership, citizenship by Blood, -not permission of law. That's why it's called "natural citizenship" and not something else.

It's automatic without any need for input from lawmakers. It is the equivalent of wind power pushing a sail boat. It does not move by human-made machine and fuel. It moves by natural force. Human effort, or regulation is not needed. With citizens, even government is not needed. Only birth to members is needed.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti belched: "Mr. Nash,

Seeing that "perpetual allegiance" was US policy until long after the war of 1812 (i.e. the US didn't recognize a person's right to expatriation),"

WOW! Someone has a whole pan full of egg on their face and I don't think it's me. It was one of the foundational principles of the American philosophy of Natural Law that, by the rights with which free and equal human beings were created, it was an unalienable right to choose which nation one wanted to be bound to and which they would reject.

It was the very foundation principle legitimizing the Revolution! It was why the young and weak nation went to war against the strongest nation on earth in 1812. It was the British that clung to perpetual allegiance for life.

How lame are your reading skills that you read "once an Englishman, -always an Englishman", and failed to grasp which side was promoting the Royal Rights of Kings against the natural Rights of Man.

You added, "your comment is nothing but complete BS. Which makes it indistinguishable from any of your theories." Someone is living in an alternate reality and it isn't me.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti wheezed: "(native born children of diplomats or enemy invaders are not citizens)"
If you understood why that's so, your world would crumble. It's occum's razor simple.

They are the issue of outsiders and are the same as their fathers; alien, foreign, unintegrated, apart, separate. Like father, like son 'cause that's the way nature makes it, -and governments as well.
Similarly, children of all foreign guests, -whether diplomatic or not, are also not members by blood of the society in whose territory they were born. Like the son of Custer born in Sioux territory,...not a native, not a Sioux, not a member, not eligible to be Chief.

Same with foreign students and any child born to them, -not subject, not related, not domiciled, not a citizen, not eligible. That is American Law even though it is in direct conflict with administered American policy. The policy is illegitimate, not the law.

"Find naturalization records for a native-born child of foreign parents. Just one. It had to have happened before the 14th Amendment,".
You are too ignorant to have a conversation with. You fail to grasp what naturalization records are and were. Only foreign men could be accepted for natural-ization, -conversion into Americans by oath.
Where are the records of the naturalization of their foreign wives? Same place as those for their children. None-existent because they were not naturalized, -as I've asserted previously.

They were converted automatically into Americans through their blood relationship to their head, the father, the man of the house. The husband and wife were one flesh by the word of of God in Genesis. Her citizenship was proven my her husband's naturalization record and their marriage certificate. That's how it was done. No record needed. That's history.

Children could substitute their birth certificates for a marriage certificate. No record needed either. They were Americans via jus sanguinis, -through their blood relationship to their head. When he changed from foreigner to American, they changed also.

"The simple fact is that, if the birthers were right, these two challenges would be easy to answer." They are easy to answer. If you did a little more research, you could have answered them, but your premise is totally false. The truth of my assertions is not dependent on anything other than whether they are true or not. Not the ability to answer a question.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

thalightguy wrote:

"The Constitution as amended clearly defines who the “citizens of the United States” are."

No, it does not. It only defines a subset of citizens who meet its specific criteria. Those who do so are citizens. Those who do not are also citizens but not by its authority. Their citizenship long pre-dates its authority. They created the whole system of law and government. They didn't create a hoop that they themselves had to jump through in order to be members of the system and society that they were a part of already.

"I have capitalized, “NOW ARE” AND “HAVE BEEN”, this wording only allows for past and present persons, it does not include the future children born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents."

Okay, smart guy, -show me where the word "only" appears and I'll make you king. I've written extensively on exposing that pedestrian false logic but it isn't online yet. When you read it, that view will crumble.

Mario wrote: "Now Congress in 1802 even removed the citizenship status all together from such children."

Congress removed nothing. There is not a single word of exclusion. What you erroneously claim as intended and effected would read: "and from henceforth, all children of Americans born outside her borders is an alien and forever ineligible to serve as her President." I can't find such exclusion. Nor can you.

MichaelN said...

thalightguy said...

"MichaelN,

Please explain how I am wrong.

The Act clearly prevents any future persons born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents from obtaining U.S. citizenship at birth.

You highlighted the words, “the children of persons who NOW ARE or HAVE BEEN citizens of the United States shall though born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States be considered as citizens of the United States”.

As you can see I have capitalized, “NOW ARE” AND “HAVE BEEN”, this wording only allows for past and present persons, it does not include the future children born outside of the U.S. to citizen parents."

Reply:

Now means now, not "back then".

At future times when this legislation would be administered, "now" should not mean "then" or "at that past time".

I think it is badly worded, but if it really was intended to make such a significant change in citizenship eligibility, the legislators would more likely have used language to exclude citizenship eligibility from a particular date forward.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said....

"Only an idiot who doesn't understand what natural means would think that an alien outsider could produce a natural member of any group, whether your family or your nation. Man! This is so elementary."

Reply:
According to Lord/Sir Edward Coke per Calvin's case, use of the word "natural" was based on what was understood as the "law of nature".

It was based on allegiance not place.

Calvin's case....

"There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances: the first is, ligeantia naturalis, absoluta, pura, et indefinita,42 and this originally is due by nature and birthright, and is called alta ligeantia42a and he that oweth this is called subditus natus.43

[42. ][Ed.: natural, absolute, pure and unlimited allegiance.]

[42a. ][Ed.: high allegiance.]

[43. ][Ed.: subject born.]

..... First, That the ligeance or faith of the Subject is due unto the King by the Law of Nature: Secondly, That the Law of Nature is part of the Law of England: Thirdly, That the Law of Nature was before any Judicial or Municipal Law: Fourthly, That the Law of Nature is Immutable.

The Law of Nature is that which God at the time of creation of the nature of man infused into his heart, for his preservation and direction; and this is lex aeterna,118 the Moral Law, called also the Law of Nature. And by this Law, written with the finger of God in the heart of man, were the people of God a long time governed, before that Law was written by Moses, who was the first Reporter or Writer of Law in the world. The Apostle inthe second Chapter to the Romans saith, Cum enim gentes quae legem non habent naturaliter ea quae legis sunt faciunt.119 And this is within that commandment of the Moral Law, Honora patrem,120 which doubtless doth extend to him that is pater patriae121 And the Apostle saith, Omnis anima potestatibus sublimioribus subdita sit.122 And these be the words of the great Divine, Hoc Deus in Sacris Scripturis jubet. hoc lex naturae dictari, ut quilibet subditus obediat superio,123 And Aristotle, Nature’s Secretary, Lib. 5. Aethic. saith, That jus naturale est, quod apud omnes homines eandem habet potentiam.124 And herewith doth agree Bracton, lib. 1. cap. 5. and Fortescue, cap. 8, 12, 13, and 16. Doctor and Student, cap. 2. and 4. And the reason hereof is, for that God and Nature is one |[13 a] to all, and therefore the Law of God and Nature is one to all.
By this Law of Nature is the Faith, Ligeance, and Obedience of the Subject due to his Sovereign or Superiour. And Aristotle 1. Politicorum proveth, that to Command and to Obey is of Nature, and that Magistracy is of Nature: For whatsoever is necessary and profitable for the preservation of the society of man, is due by the Law of nature:

....Wherefore to conclude this point (and to exclude all that hath been or could be objected against it) if the obedience and ligeance of the subject to his Sovereign be due by the Law of nature, if that law be parcel of the Laws, as well of England, as of all other nations, and is immutable, and that Postnati142 and we of England are united by birth right, |[14 b] in obedience and ligeance (which is the true cause of natural subjection) by the law of nature;

....The place is observable, but so as many times ligeance or obedience without any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions without obedience can never produce a natural subject."


This is for you Kev and Unknown/Not Linda......

At common law, the word "natural" relates to allegiance to sovereignty NOT to place of birth.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of V

1. You said: “I see you're trying to obfuscate your position here (which you generally do to try to hide a logical fallacy), so let me state my position clearly.” Reply: How convenient for you to mistake your inability to comprehend and refute my position for my obfuscation.

2. You said: “In the Constitution, whenever the term ‘Citizen of the United States’ is used in the Constitution it refers to every US citizen (though it may be later qualified, i.e. ‘at the time of Adoption of this Constitution’ or ‘at least 25 years of age’).” Reply: I cannot believe that you did not add to your list of citizens who the Constitution qualifies in some specific way the “natural born citizens.

3. You said: “Honestly, I'm not sure what your position is, but you either agree with this (in which case I'm unsure why you keep harping on it) or you need to explain how we are supposed to tell when ‘Citizen of the United States’ does and does not include natural born citizens.” Reply: I have explained that at common law, there has been one and only one definition of a “natural born citizen,” which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). I explained that all “natural born citizens” are “citizens” and therefore also “citizens of the United States.” I also explained that not all “citizens” and therefore “citizens of the United States” are “natural born citizens.” If that proposition is true which it is, that means that there must be “citizens of the United States” who are just that but not also “natural born citizens.” This further means that if you are going to assert that one is a “citizen of the United States” under a specific definition of the Fourteenth Amendment, Act of Congress, or treaty, and also a “natural born citizen,” one then has the burden to prove that he/she is not only a “citizen of the United States” under that specific law, but also a “natural born citizen” by also satisfying the common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

Your Wong and Obama Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” and your Cruz Congressional Act “citizen of the United States” fail this constitutional test and you have not been able to demonstrate how you can take them from the “citizen” world and place them also in the “natural born citizen” one. The only inescapable logical conclusion that we can draw is that while they may be “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress, as the case may be, they are not also “natural born citizens.”

4. You said: “I suspect that your obfuscation is an attempt to muddy the waters to make your claim that the 14th Amendment created a new class of citizens seem more reasonable, which is somewhat ridiculous since, by your definition or mine, the 14th Amendment covers most if not all natural born citizens when it refers to ‘All persons born [...] in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof’.” Reply: The Fourteenth Amendment, through its place of birth and broad jurisdiction language necessarily includes all “natural born citizens.” But that does not make the case for you, for you have to still prove that your “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment is also a “natural born citizen.” Here you still fail. Again, all “natural born citizens” are “citizens” and also Fourteenth Amendment “citizens of the United States.” But this does not mean that all Fourteenth Amendment “citizens of the United States” are “natural born citizens, for as both Minor and Wong Kim Ark confirm the latter is defined by common law and not by the Fourteenth Amendment. With that said, you still have to prove that any given Fourteenth Amendment “citizen of the United States” is also a common law “natural born citizen.” It is here that you fail.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of V

5. You said: “The SCOTUS could have saved us all a lot of trouble by just saying that Virginia Minor was a citizen via the 14th Amendment in their dicta (or just noting the point since both sides agreed that she was a citizen). Reply: Even if Minor would have so declared Virginia Minor, it would not help you, for, again, all “natural born citizens” are “citizens” and therefore also Fourteenth Amendment “citizens of the United States.” In fact, both Minor and Wong Kim Ark said that the Minor Court found Virginia Minor to be a “citizen.” But all that does not make true that all “citizens” or “citizens of the United States” are “natural born citizens.” In the post-Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment period, you still have to prove which of the “citizens” or “citizens of the United States,” who acquired that status by birth in the United States, are also “natural born citizens.” You can do that only by demonstrating that any such “citizen” also satisfies the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

6. You said: “In fact, only those born citizens outside of the United States do not derive their citizenship via the 14th Amendment.” Reply: So what? Such persons are “citizens of the United States” under naturalization acts of Congress. But such “citizens,” not also satisfying the constitutional national common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” are not and cannot be a “natural born citizen.” Hence, neither Ted Cruz (born in Canada) nor Obama (whether born in the United States or some foreign country) are or can be “natural born citizens.”

7. You said: “You have clarified your challenge, however---it is an attempt to ‘beg the question’ by getting us to accept that the court in Minor gave a definition. A definition is both a necessary and a sufficient condition and the SCOTUS only gave a sufficient condition and explicitly refused to determine if the condition was necessary as well, so the answer to your challenge is that it is a trick question: no definition was provided by the court in Minor.” Reply: The fallacy is all yours, denying that there is a definition of a “natural born citizen” when convenient to do so and then telling us what the definition is when also convenient to do so. We all agree (including Unknown) that a child born in the country to parents who are its citizens is not only a citizen like the parents but also a “natural born citizen.” If we all agree with that statement, that statement is a definition. The birth circumstances contained in this statement are the only ones the U.S. Supreme Court has ever equated with one being a “natural born citizen.” That makes the description a definition. After all, you even admitted here that terms in the Constitution only have one meaning.

As to what question Minor left open, it left open only the question of whether the Fourteenth Amendment abrogated the common law definition of a “citizen” (not to be conflated and confounded with a “natural born citizen”). It said that “there have been doubts” whether it did. After all, virtually the same Court had said in The Slaughterhouse Cases in 1873 that a person born in the United States to alien parents was not a “citizen of the United State” under the Fourteenth Amendment (hence not a “citizen”). Wong Kim Ark, finding that what The Slaughterhouse Cases had said about who were “citizens” under the Fourteenth Amendment (even though that Court chose to first determine whether the plaintiffs were “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment before it determined to what privileges and immunities they were entitled under that Amendment) and that the Minor Court was not committed to excluding such children from citizenship under that Amendment (simply because Minor did not say that The

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of V

Slaughterhouse Cases Court was correct in excluding such children from Fourteenth Amendment citizenship), found that that common law definition of a “citizen,” again not a “natural born citizen” but still requiring birth in the country to citizen parents), not consistent with how the colonial English common law defined an English “natural-born subject” (with exceptions not applicable to Wong, requiring only place of birth) and therefore that the Fourteenth Amendment did abrogate that common law definition of a “citizen” (not a “natural born citizen”) and replaced it with a new definition which is a person born in the United States and “subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” Again, while Wong Kim Ark changed Minor’s common law definition of a “citizen,” it did not change its common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

8. You said: “I've presented a timeline of the meaning of ‘natural born’ and how it changes from the point where we all agree (natural born subjects before the Revolution) to the present which is clear, internally consistent and in agreement with the Constitution, all statutes, all judicial rulings, all textbooks, and the words and actions of Justices O'Connor, Jay, Roberts, Scalia and Thomas, President Madison, President Jefferson, the Heritage Foundation and many, many more, not to mention the interpretation of every credible Constitutional scholar (really the interpretation of everyone before 2008).” Reply: Despite that the Constitution says “natural born citizen,” you keep using “natural born” rather than “natural born citizen,” in your lame effort to deny that we had a revolution against England after which “subjects” (members of monarchies) became “citizens” (members of republics), that the Framers gave a specific meaning to a “natural born citizen” (not a “natural-born subject"), and in your feeble attempt based on the mere words “natural born” to try to prove that a “natural born citizen” has the same meaning as an English “natural-born subject.” Also, your just listing names does not nor can it substitute for relevant evidence and reasoned analysis proving your position and refusing mine.

9. You said: “I don't believe that you can present a similarly complete theory of how citizenship in the US has evolved as it will necessarily produce a plethora of contradictions, each requiring special pleading to explain (like Mr. Nash saying that President Madison was really talking about Virginia when he said "the United States").” Reply: You want to confound a “natural born citizen” into you story about how citizenship has evolved in the United States. The simple answer to your fallacy is that a “natural born citizen” does and cannot not evolve into something else (like a circle cannot morph into some other shape) and has not (a circle has not changed into a different shape for if it did it would have stopped being a circle) in all the years that the United States has existed. Rather, what has evolved is how we as a nation have defined a “citizen,” with that evolution coming by way of Acts of Congress, the Fourteenth Amendment, and treaties, all positive laws which have changed the meaning of a “citizen,” but not changed the one and only meaning of a “natural born citizen.” Also, regarding Thomas Jefferson’s Virginia citizenship laws, as I have already explained on this blog and on Obot blogs, only for adults in being at the time of their effective dates they were jus soli based. For infants in being at that time or thereafter, they were jus sanguinis based. In all cases Jefferson allowed for the right of expatriation which demonstrates, along with so much other evidence, how ridiculous your statement is that the new republic continued with absolute perpetual allegiance following the Revolution.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of V

10. You said: “Just a few things I'd like to see you try to explain away: the state's argument that ruling Wong Kim Ark a citizen would make him eligible for the presidency.” Reply: What is critically missing from you argument is that the majority of the Court did not make any such statement. Rather, you tell us that just the federal government made that argument (you forgot to tell us that Chief Justice Fuller in his dissent also alluded to that same point). Arguments of counsel, regardless of whether on the winning or losing side (and dissenting opinions), do not somehow determine what the holding of a case is. Just imagine what your “open the flood gates” argument would do to the meaning of a holding of any court decision.

11. Regarding “the discussion in the debates about the 14th Amendment that makes it clear that the Amendment is merely declaratory of existing law:” Reply: the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1875) said that children born in the United States to alien parents were not included as citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. So, yes, the amendment was only declaratory of existing law.

12. Regarding Judge Masin's opinion, as I have already explained, he erroneously reads the Fourteenth Amendment, Minor, and Wong Kim Ark. He also found Obama to be born in the United States with no such evidence before him. Additionally, he even misstated what my argument regarding what a “natural born citizen” is, stating that I said it was a child born in the United States to parents who were born in the United States. I never said any such thing.

13. Regarding the Ankeny ruling, it makes the same Fourteenth Amendment, Minor, and Wong Kim Ark errors as ALJ Masin. Ankeny simply assumed that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen” without in any way demonstrating it. In fact, Masin even relied upon the bad law of Ankeny.

14. Regarding, Justice O'Connor's statements, here is what she said:
“All of our Presidents have, to date, been born in the 50 states. Notably, President Obama was born in the state of Hawaii, and so is clearly a natural born citizen.”
Any off-the-cuff, politically motivated one line statement made by her as a former Supreme Court Justice to a 12-year old girl who writes her a letter in which she asks whether birth in the country is necessary to be a “natural born citizen” is not only an unsubstantiated statement, but can also never rise to the level of anything judicially binding on the meaning of a “natural born citizen.” Additionally, if you want to make anything that she said in the letter binding, she did not tell that little girl that she could be eligible to be President which is the question the girl asked her and which she failed to answer due to her political defense of Obama. Hence, O’Connor suggested that birth in the country is a necessary condition of being a “natural born citizen.” So it looks like Obama (if not born in the United States) and Ted Cruz (born in Canada) is out of luck.

15. Regarding “President Madison's quote about place of birth being the "most certain" criterion of allegiance, yes, place of birth is the “most certain” criterion of allegiance because knowing where one is born is much easier to know than who one’s natural parents are. But that simple fact does not make place of birth the only criterion of allegiance, or that it is even sufficient for any given purpose at any given time, for being the most certain criterion in any given time does not mean being the only criterion for all time. This reality is easily proven. As to your error that place of birth is the only criterion, during the American Revolution, birth in one of the colonies, along with adherence to the revolution, became the most effective way to show that one consented to be a “citizen” of some state. That

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

V of V

manifestation of consent was sufficient to make one a “citizen of the United States” to satisfy Article II’s grandfather clause or to be a member of Congress, which latter status was the only issue with which Congress was faced in the Ramsay v. Smith House challenge.

As to your error that place of birth is sufficient to produce "natural born citizen" allegiance, the whole world knows that birth to parents is another criterion of allegiance and the citizenship laws of the world reflect this reality. Hence, to be a future “natural born citizen” (not the issue in the Ramsay v. Smith challenge) or even just a common law “citizen,” place of birth was not sufficient, for one also had to demonstrate that one was born to citizen parents.

The early naturalization acts of Congress (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855) all treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. The very same James Madison and his administration when he became President, when interpreting the Naturalization Act of 1802 in the James McClure 1811 citizenship case, told us that being born in South Carolina in 1786 was not sufficient to make one a “citizen of the United States” under that Act or any other applicable law, including those of South Carolina. If our early Congress, which contained many Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers, established that birth in the United States was not sufficient for one to be a “citizen,” it follows a fortiori that they concluded that it was also not sufficient for one to be a “natural born citizen.”

These two simple truths, allegiance by place of birth and allegiance by birth to citizen parents, is the reason that a “natural born citizen” must be born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

16. You want me to address “the lack of concern about the citizenship of the father of Chester A. Arthur.” You provide no evidence that the public knew that Chester A. Arthur was born to non-U.S. citizens.

17. You mention Spiro Agnew. Spiro Agnew was a “natural born citizen” under my definition of the clause. Show me what of his birth circumstances make him otherwise.

18. You want to know how I am “going to convince Congress that the president isn't natural born when their own research arm says he is.” I have more than adequately shown that Jack Maskell has done nothing more than present a logically invalid argument to the extent that he argues that because all “natural born citizens” are born citizens, that any person who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen” and in the alternative, a logically unsound argument when he argues that since all born citizens are “natural born citizens,” any person who is a born citizen is necessarily a “natural born citizen,” for he fails to present any historical and legal evidence that it is true that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”

19. Finally, you want to know about what you allege to be “all of the arguments that you quite obviously lost on Jonathan Turley's blog 4 years ago.” If I lost my arguments on the Jonathan Turley blog 4 years ago, I do not understand why you have not used the material there showing that I am wrong in your comments here. After all, why would you, in the famous words of New Jersey ALJ Masin, want to reinvent the wheel? Since you have been a total failure here, it only follows that no one on any Jonathan Turley blog posted anything refuting my position on the meaning of a “natural born citizen.”

So, Slartibartfast, after all these years that you have been trying to learn what a “natural born citizen” is and to prove me wrong, you are still a total failure.

MichaelN said...

Part 1 of 2

Kev, Unknown and the rest of the traitorous deniers in their desperation, continuously assert the absurdity that in the context Article II of the US Constitution that "natural born Citizen" actually means a US citizen solely because of native-birth in the US, and that this principle has its basis in English common law per Calvin's case.

Well here's what the benchmark English common law per Calvin's case to say on that matter....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:

.....There be regulary (unlesse it be in special cases) three incidents to a subject born. 1. That the parents be under the actual obedience of the king. 2. That the place of his birth be within the king’s dominion. And 3. the time of his birth is chiefly to be considered;

.....The place is observable, but so as many times ligeance or obedience without any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions without obedience can never produce a natural subject. And therefore if any of the king’s Ambassadors in forein Nations, have children there of their wives, being English women, by the Common Laws of England they are natural born subjects, and yet they are born out of the king’s dominions.

.....There is found in the law four kinds of ligeances: the first is, ligeantia naturalis, absoluta, pura, et indefinita,42 and this originally is due by nature and birthright, and is called alta ligeantia42a and he that oweth this is called subditus natus.43

[42. ][Ed.: natural, absolute, pure and unlimited allegiance.]

[42a. ][Ed.: high allegiance.]

[43. ][Ed.: subject born.]

......... The second is called ligeantia acquisita,44 not by nature but by acquisition or denization, being called a denizen, or rather donaizon, because he is subditus datus.45

[45. ][Ed.: a subject made by gift.]"

(cont'd)

MichaelN said...


Part 2 of 2
But what does "by nature" or "natural" mean in English common law?

Does it really mean "native birth"?

Let's see what Calvin's case held on this matter....

"First, That the ligeance or faith of the Subject is due unto the King by the Law of Nature: Secondly, That the Law of Nature is part of the Law of England: Thirdly, That the Law of Nature was before any Judicial or Municipal Law: Fourthly, That the Law of Nature is Immutable.

The Law of Nature.The Law of Nature is that which God at the time of creation of the nature of man infused into his heart, for his preservation and direction; and this is lex aeterna,118 the Moral Law, called also the Law of Nature.

.....By this Law of Nature is the Faith, Ligeance, and Obedience of the Subject due to his Sovereign or Superiour.

...........Whatsoever is due by the law or constitution of man, may be altered: But natural ligeance or obedience of the subject to the Sovereign cannot be altered; ergo natural ligeance or obedience to the Sovereign is not due by the law or constitution of man. Again, whatsoever is due by the Law of Nature, cannot be altered: But ligeance and obedience of the subject to the Sovereign is due by the law of Nature; ergo it cannot be altered. It hath been proved before, that ligeance or obedience of the inferior to the superior, of the subject to the Sovereign, was due by the Law of Nature many thousand years before any Law of man was made: Which ligeance or obedience (being the onely mark to distinguish a subject from an alien) could not be altered; therefore it remaineth still due by the Law of Nature."

Ergo: the word "natural" in English common law relates to allegiance to the sovereign due by the Law of Nature, it is NOT to do with native-birth.

Once again.....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:"

NOWHERE in common law was it EVER held that native-birth alone sufficed to make a "natural born" subject/citizen.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti bellowed: "In fact, those born citizens outside of the United States do not derive their citizenship via the 14th Amendment." -which would have been perfectly true if that was what he had actually written, but he had to go and rendered it 100% false by adding the vastly exclusionary word "ONLY", -as in..."only those born outside of the U.S. do not derive...".

No statement could be more patently false. Its absurd even on the face of it.
Pray tell, what was the source of native-born natural citizenship before the Wong opinion? The asserting that prompts the question is almost too stupid to respond to.
Did the founders rely on the 14th Amendment for their citizenship as well? If not, how did they become citizens? What means? What source? And how did it magically disappear from the universe? Did the SCOTUS declare the previous means of citizenship null and void? I think I must have missed that. Please do illuminate the darkness.

Slarti righteously flattened Mario's fantasy with "You have clarified your challenge, [in] an attempt [at] by getting us to accept that the court in Minor gave a definition. A definition is both a necessary and a sufficient condition, and the SCOTUS only gave a sufficient condition and explicitly refused to determine if the condition was necessary as well,".

On that topic, Slarti is mental-block free, and Mario is the one who is blind. Calling a non-exclusionary description a definition does not make it so. Not ever, no how, no way. Just because definitions are descriptions does not mean that the opposite is true, -that descriptions are also definitions. That is like saying that all born citizens are also natural born citizens.

"(like Mr. Nash saying that President Madison was really talking about Virginia when he said "the United States")."
I said no such thing. I argued that his view of the United States was colored by his uninformed assumptions about the nationality statutes and policies of the other States, whose laws he would have had no reason to know.

Anyone who wants to claim otherwise, please name the published compendium of State Constitutions that he would have had access to in 1789 or earlier. My position is that he spoke presumptuously, -without knowing that his Virginian experience was not the norm nationwide.
To claim he knew whereof he spoke, one must show how he could have possibly known. Perhaps he took a poll at the constitutional convention? Why would he when the subject of State citizenship was not connected to the Constitution?

"the state's argument that ruling Wong Kim Ark a citizen would make him eligible for the presidency;"

The presence of ignorance and misconception is not proof of the presence of truth. No logical person could possible think that merely being granted citizenship would make an alien-born child a natural born American. Such thinking reveals the paucity of understanding of the nature of citizenship.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"the discussion in the debates about the 14th Amendment that makes it clear that the Amendment is merely declaratory of existing law;"
That was false because there is a very real difference between "existing law", i.e., the Civil Rights Act of 1866, with it's prohibition against being subject to any foreign power, and being subject to U.S. jurisdiction.

Notice what the amendment does NOT say; "and subject to no jurisdiction except that of the United States".
No such exclusivity was added, which means that one could be subject both to a foreign power and also subject to the United States government under the 14th Amendment, -a dual citizen with conflicted allegiance, -abhorrant to American principles. So it definitely was NOT declaratory of existing law because existing law expressly forbid foreign subjection.

"Judge Masin's opinion; the Ankeny opinion; Justice O'Connor's opinion, -the lack of concern about..., the lack of a single person...,"
All irrelevant. Truth is not determined by consensus. Opinion has no place in science, fact, truth or logic. It is was it is.

Don't think you will win anything by appealing to authority. Authority has had its head in the sand of delusion since John Griggs issued his landmark, unnoted, and seemingly insignificant opinion that the Supreme Court opinion meant any person born on U.S. soil was a citizen, -thereby decapitating half of the 14th Amendment's requirement.

It's been all downhill every since, -at least ever since the massive infusion of illegal aliens pouring over the border, many while pregnant or soon to become, giving birth to supposed U.S. citizens according to Griggs and the bastardized policy of his that no one has had the spine to challenge.
Democrats don't care because they will mostly vote for them and ensure they control the government forever once the demographic balance is shifted.

Unknown said...

George Washington called children of US citizens born outside the US "citizens of the US" in NA 1795 so it is a blatant lie to say he would call a child of a alien and a citizen born outside of US like cruz a natural born citizen when someone like cruz was not even a citizen under NA 1795.Children of a alien and a citizen did not become citizens at birth until the 1900s as far as i can tell... any child who became a citizen under the naturalisation act of 1795 was not natural born but naturalised, it is one or another according to the sleazebots

Unknown said...

and btw, stranger can call children of americans born outside of the US anything he wants but our first President and President of the Constitutional Convention called them "citizens of the US" in NA 1795 and which made them ineligible in A2. George Washington has final say. I assume the ones in NA 1790 who were considered as NBCs until NA 1795 wouldve been eligible for CiC

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario claimed; "These two simple truths, allegiance by place of birth and allegiance by birth to citizen parents, is the reason that a “natural born citizen” must be born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth."

That delusion is unsupportable for very clear reasons. Let's frame the problem with a question; "What percentage of the population fits that description?"

The demographic answer is about 97%. So...they are essentially the over-whelming bulk of citizens. Such is the case in almost all nations.

Now point out just one nation which (by law) requires that its citizenship includes both soil and blood, both jus soli and jus sanguinis, instead of one or the other.
No such nation exists on Earth.

The United States is not such a nation, and never had been.

Natural membership, natural citizenship, natural nationality is solely via jus sanguinis, via blood.
Unnatural citizenship, citizenship by permission, by mercy, by allowance, by law, by jus soli has no connection to natural citizenship whatsoever, even though they are almost always coincident, concurrent, simultaneous but also independent and separate.

Welding them together legally is like combining gold and wood, blood and soil. They don't mix as principles because one is a natural principle and the other is a mandate of royal despots.
One is based on Natural Rights and the other on Divine Rights (of Kings!). Incompatible.

That's why no nation on Earth has ever passed any regulation requiring both for all of its natural citizens. That includes the United States. It has no such law either.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Ray said...

According to Chester Arthur, persons born within the United States born subject to a foreign power require naturalization.

"A uniform rule of naturalization, such as the Constitution contemplates, should, among other things, clearly define the status of persons born within the United States subject to a foreign power and of minor children of fathers who have declared their intention to become citizens but have failed to perfect their naturalization. [...]

A just and uniform law in this respect would strengthen the hands of the Government in protecting its citizens abroad and would pave the way for the conclusion of treaties of naturalization with foreign countries."
President Chester Arthur, Fourth Annual Message, Dec 1, 1894.

That is a great find! Congrats and thanks for sharing. It illustrates two important points. The first is how pathetic the lazy elitists in Congress were. They had over a whole century to clarify that which needed clarification, and yet they still had not done so.

Reminds me of the do-nothing Repubicans who did nothing when they controlled both houses and the White House as well. Also reminds me of the lazy, sovereignty-surrendering Democrats who couldn't be bothered with massive details and so passed a monstrosity without even reading it.

The second is that in 1894, over a century after the founding, and nearly three decades after adoption of the 14th Amendment, there were still "persons born within the United States subject to a foreign power"!!! HOLY COW!

That shoots down oceans of obamunist crap about jus soli being the law of the land. The government viewed them as not exclusively subject to American authority but subject to foreign authority as alien-born foreigner-Americans.
The debate is over. We can go home. They have lost big-time by the mouth of their own jus soli President.

continued

Stranger said...

a.r.nash continues:

President Chester Arthur knew better than anyone that such children were not Americans by birth but were in a nationality limbo of confusion. He knew that he himself was born subject to a foreign power and thus was not a U.S. citizen by birth to an American father, accompanied by the non-existence of any national mandate institutionalizing jus soli citizenship for the alien-born.

Note that the view held in that day is not a subject of debate because his own words expressed it. That puts it outside of the realm of opinion. Let his view stand in stark contrast to all opinions since. They all followed the bastardization of the Wong opinion by A.G. Griggs.

"A just and uniform law in this respect would strengthen the hands of the Government in protecting its citizens abroad..."
That reveals the conundrum. The alien-born children of immigrants were viewed as citizens but were not citizens by law, -only by opinion and policy (probably depending on the administration in power).

Without any national law making them citizens, the U.S. State Department was stuck with protecting their citizenship abroad like it was waving a feather duster instead of a solid club of actual law. A feather duster doesn't have much of an impact when it comes to substituting for throwing around the weigh of legal authority.

Question: How can persons who are not even legally citizens, be proclaimed to not only be citizens but natural born citizens as well? Hmmm.... time for obots to regroup and rethink and resign.

"...pave the way for the conclusion of treaties of naturalization with foreign countries."
Hmmm... didn't know that natural born citizens needed naturalization nor treaties to be recognized as that which they were born as. I guess the alien-born in America needed to be covered by naturalization treaties.
Gee, that sounds like they were perfectly qualified to command all of the American military & federal power. On Bizarro World!

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

Now that we've agreed that both of our theories constitute a "strong check" against foreign influence, the question is how we should go about deciding which one is a more reasonable interpretation. I found this comment by Vince Treacy on a blog about Rafael Cruz's eligibility at Balkinization

Mario might remember Mr. Treacy from Jonathan Turley's blog where he patiently, politely and thoroughly refuted all the theories Mario could come up with with impeccably reasoned and referenced legal arguments.

Vince Treacy said:

"When presented with plausible but conflicting arguments for the constitutionality of a proposition, choose the interpretation that best fulfills the stated or evident purpose of the constitutional provision.

The evident purpose of the natural born citizenship requirement was to bar naturalized
Citizens from the Presidency. The framers feared that grownup foreign royals or nobles might try to sweep into power at the call of desperate citizens. They might be installed by dint of military threats by foreign powers. A charismatic military leader might pose as a savior of the nation. These were all precluded by the Clause.

Could the foreign-born children of American citizens have fitted into this category of threats? Could the framers have rationally feared citizenship at birth as a foreign influence? The answer from history is clearly "No". The First Congress passed a law providing that children of citizens "that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens."

Many framers sat in that Congress. Supreme Court decisions have given weight to its constitutional interpretations. Its legislation was signed into law by George Washington himself, who had presided at the 1787 Convention. So we do not have to guess. The framers did not fear foreign born infants and expressly conferred natural born citizenship to them.
"

While there is no evidence that the Founders feared the influence of citizens born in either President Obama's circumstances or those of Rafael Cruz, the scenarios that Mr. Treacy mentions were common at the time of the Founding. If we use Ockham's razor and assume that John Jay underlined the word "born" to indicate the importance of being born a citizen rather than becoming a citizen later in life, it becomes clear that John Jay's letter to President Washington actually argues against the birther position.

Unknown said...

Thalightguy asked:
"The definition of who a 'natural born Citizen' is, is the same Today as the Framers understood it to be when they inserted the Term into the Constitution."

It is as close to the same as we can get. Looking to the contemporaneous records we have of which Framers thought what about the meaning of an Article II natural-born citizen, we see bupkis.

In the U.S., the citizenship of the naturalized is equal to that of the natural-born in all respects except presidential eligibility (and vice-presidential with the 12'th Amendment). Until the Framers inserted "natural born citizen" into the Constitution, there was no reason to argue this issue. What little we have from the time is about which children are citizens upon birth, which is hardly surprising. One reason to believe that "natural-born citizen" just means citizen from birth is that at the time of the framing there would have been no significance to it meaning anything more.

Unknown said...


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. asked:
"Who do you think you are fooling?"

I've responded to that one before. I could tell you who is fooling you, Mr. Apuzzo, but you wouldn't believe me and everyone else already knows.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You have again plastered your repetitive nonsense here which does not come close to addressing my arguments in a substantive way."

I cannot even get a straight answer from you. If you are still arguing that a natural born citizen is not a citizen of the United States, in the sense the terms are used in the Constitution, then I am not going to bother with substantive argument. I'm going to underline your claim and hold it up for the laughter it so richly deserves.

A few posts ago you wrote, "it is not correct to say that a 'citizen of the United States' is excluded from being a 'natural born citizen.'"

Yes. Obviously. People had been trying to explain that to you for years. Even though you say that as if you now understand, you write:


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Again, as I have explained to you, what is relevant in interpreting the meaning of a 'natural born citizen' is the contemporaneous evidence that existed at or around the time of the framing and ratification of the Constitution. In that connection and among the many points to which I am still waiting for you to respond, I am still looking for you to give me an example from the pre-Civil Rights Act of 1866/Fourteenth Amendment period of a 'citizen of the United States,' so called and as defined by and hence existing in any Congressional Act or treaty, who was also a 'citizen' or 'natural born citizen' as defined by what Minor v. Happersett (1875) called the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution."

Slartibartfast responded pointing out that the Constitution requires every member of Congress to be "a citizen of the United States", and many have also unarguably been natural-born citizens. A fine pre-1866 example would be Abraham Lincoln.

As you write, "among the many points to which I am still waiting for you to respond", do you forget that I explained this to you over a month ago?

And what about the points to which you refuse to respond? You told me, "you add that there is no difference between a 'natural born citizen' and a 'citizen of the United States." I asked you to quote where I did that, so I can correct as necessary. Well?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I of IV

1. It is quite clear that you do not know basic concepts of logic and that you should have paid more attention to those busts of Aristotle.

I said: "Again, as I have explained to you, what is relevant in interpreting the meaning of a 'natural born citizen' is the contemporaneous evidence that existed at or around the time of the framing and ratification of the Constitution. In that connection and among the many points to which I am still waiting for you to respond, I am still looking for you to give me an example from the pre-Civil Rights Act of 1866/Fourteenth Amendment period of a 'citizen of the United States,' so called and as defined by and hence existing in any Congressional Act or treaty, who was also a 'citizen' or 'natural born citizen' as defined by what Minor v. Happersett (1875) called the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution."

You replied: “Slartibartfast responded pointing out that the Constitution requires every member of Congress to be "a citizen of the United States", and many have also unarguably been natural-born citizens. A fine pre-1866 example would be Abraham Lincoln.

I will try one more time to explain it to you. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained that the Framers defined a “natural born citizen” under the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. It said that under that common law, a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth was not only a citizen as his parents, but also a “natural born citizen,” and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners.” Since the Framers defined an Article II “natural born citizen” under this common law, this law and its definition of a “natural born citizen” became incorporated into the Constitution as constitutional national common law and part of the supreme law of the land, subject to change only by duly ratified constitutional amendment under Article V.

From what Minor said, it necessarily follows that all “natural born citizens” (under common law) are “citizens” of the United States (under common law) and therefore enjoy all the privileges, immunities, and rights of “citizens of the United States” (which citizens include the original citizens who became so under the Declaration of Independence and the Revolution, citizens under state naturalization acts who upon the adoption of the Constitution became “citizens of the United States,” and later citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress which call those citizens “citizens of the United States). Hence, any “natural born citizen” is eligible to be a member of Congress under Article I, Section 2 (Representative) and 3 (Senator).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of IV

This does not mean that a positive law “citizen of the United States” cannot be a common law “natural born citizen.” But it also does not mean that someone who is a positive law “citizen of the United States” is necessarily a common law “natural born citizen.” Except for the original “citizens,” who became such through the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the Revolution, all of which naturalized them to be “citizens” by condition, at common law, all “citizens” were also “natural born citizens.” This must be true given that Minor said that all the rest of the people who were neither “citizen” nor “natural born citizens” were “aliens or foreigners.” But after Congress passed its naturalization acts, treaties, and the Fourteenth Amendment, the common law “citizen” was abrogated and took on a different meaning. These positive laws used the clause “citizen of the United States” and provided the condition by which one became such a citizen. Now, the old common law “citizen,” called a “citizen of the United States,” became whatever those positive laws said it was. And since those positive laws, in defining those “citizens of the United States,” did not define them the same as the common law defined a “natural born citizen,” those “citizens of the United States” were not necessarily also common law “natural born citizens.” This means that with the passage of these positive laws, all “citizens of the United States” were not “natural born citizens.” It other words, unlike the old common law “citizen” who was also a “natural born citizen,” all positive law “citizens of the United States” were not “natural born citizens.”

If any positive law “citizen of the United States” wants to prove that he or she is also a common law “natural born citizen,” then he or she has to demonstrate that he or she does not only meet the definition of a “citizen of the United States” under those or any future positive laws, but also the common law definition of a “natural born citizen,” which as we have seen is the unaltered supreme law of the land. And it is here that both Obama and Cruz fail, for they may be “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment (Obama, if born in the United States) or an Act of Congress (Cruz), but they do not and cannot also satisfy the constitutionally binding common law definition of a “natural born citizen.”

2. Here is what you have argued first as NotLinda:

The Minor Court further found, [at 168]:

‘Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided ‘that any alien, being a free white person,’ might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, [...] and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since.’

The Minor Court found it under the power Congress to consider foreign-born children of citizens to be natural-born citizens. Furthermore, they found that the following acts retained the substance of the provisions of the 1790 act.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

After I scolded you as NotLinda for omitting a very critical part of the statute through your ellipses, “And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States,” you then as Unknown decided to just paraphrase the statue. Here is what you said:

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:

"Eighth, various naturalization Acts of Congress today make persons born citizens. But they, like the Fourteenth Amendment, call them 'citizens of the United States,' not 'natural born citizens.'"

In Minor v. Happersett, the Supreme Court quoted the Naturalization Act of 1790, including the provision considered foreign-born children of citizens to be natural-born citizens. The Court noted that Congress made the provisions under its power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization, and further said that the subsequent naturalization acts retained the substance of the quoted provisions [at 168]. The subsequent acts, like the acts today, make such children citizens upon birth without using the "natural born" language. Thus we see that an act considering children to be citizens upon birth is the same in substance as one considering them natural-born citizens.

Rogers v. Bellei includes similar observations:

"1. The very first Congress, at its Second Session, proceeded to implement its power, under the Constitution's Art. I, § 8, cl. 4, to 'establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization' by producing the Act of March 26, 1790, 1 Stat. 103. That statute, among other things, stated, 'And the children of citizens of the United States, that may be born beyond sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born citizens: Provided, That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons whose fathers have never been resident in the United States . . . .' [ellipsis in Court Opinion]

"2. A like provision, with only minor changes in phrasing and with the same emphasis on paternal residence, was continuously in effect through three succeeding naturalization Acts." Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815 (1971), at 823

We see again that the change from considering such children natural-born citizens to considering them citizens upon birth is only a minor change in phrasing.

*********

Now you plead ignorance regarding your arguing that there is no difference between a “natural born citizen” and a “citizen of the United States” as used in these statutes, bolstered by your unsupported argument that there is not difference between a “natural born citizen” and a born citizen. You maintained as both NotLinda and here as Unknown, and joined in by Slartibartfast, that there is no substantive difference between the 1790 Naturalization Act and the later naturalization acts. You take that absurd position to try to show that when the Third Congress through the Naturalization Act of 1795 removed “natural born citizen” that was found in the Naturalization Act of 1790 and replaced it with “citizen of the United States,” that it still meant that that person was a “natural born citizen.” You base that argument on your other argument that there is no difference between a “natural born citizen” and a “born citizen.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

Hence, in both of your anonymous lives, you have maintained that Minor, in how it read the early naturalization acts, said that there was no substantive difference between the 1790 Act and the 1795 Act and others that followed and that that followed from your position that there is no difference between a “natural born citizen” and a born citizen. Your point is trying to show that a “citizen of the United States” at birth used in the 1795 Act and those that followed was no different in meaning from a “natural born citizen” used in the 1790 Act, and therefore when the Third Congress in 1795 and later Congresses said that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were “citizen of the United States” at birth they were still saying that they were “natural born citizens” simply because those persons were still born citizens. Of course, you make your arguments in order to make Senator Ted Cruz, only a born citizen under positive naturalization statutory law, a “natural born citizen” which he is not and can never be.

Do you think that President Washington, James Madison, and the rest of the Third Congress were all so stupid not to realize that as you maintain that there is no difference between a “natural born citizen” and a born citizen and therefore there was no need for them to make such a big deal in 1795 of replacing “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States?” On the contrary, the fact that they deliberately and with calculated precision renamed that born citizen from “natural born citizen” to “citizen of the United States” proves that simply being a born citizen did not make one a “natural born citizen.”

I have already explained to you that the Minor Court was concerned with Virginia Minor, who was born in the United States. Hence, there was no issue before the Court regarding children born out of the United States. That means that when the Court said there was no substantive difference between the 1790 Act and the 1795 Act, it was not referring to the acts going from “natural born citizen” to “citizen of the United States,” which applied only to children born out of the United States. So apart that your equivalency argument is absurd given the clear and unequivocal language of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, which makes a huge constitutional distinction between the two types of citizens, what the Court was referring to is the fact that Congress, since the 1790 Act, and down to the 1855 Act, treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born. That understanding of the Acts by the Court is totally consistent with the Court’s statement that “there have been doubts” whether a child “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents was a “citizen” and that after the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment and given how virtually the same Court ruled in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873), that question would have to further analyzed if the need arose which need did not arise in Minor because Virginia Minor was born in the United States to citizen parents, which made her a “natural born citizen.” If the naturalization acts had excluded from its jurisdiction children born in the United States, the Court would never have made that statement, because it would have been clear that children born in the United States to alien parents, excluded from the act’s force and therefore not needing their parents to naturalize before they themselves could be citizens while still minors, could be nothing but “citizens of the United States.”

So now that I have demonstrated to you how you, in interpreting the naturalization acts, have treated a “natural born citizen” and a “citizen of the United States” at birth under those acts as though they had no constitutional difference between them, are you going to “correct as necessary” what you wrote?

MichaelN said...

Stranger said ....

"Natural membership, natural citizenship, natural nationality is solely via jus sanguinis, via blood."

Reply:

Yes for natural membership to be a "citizen of the United States", but the reality was and is, that for a citizen of the United States to be eligible for the office of POTUS, something extra was required, over and above the eligibility criteria to be a citizen of the United States, that is where PLACE of birth was and is an additional requirement, thus satisfying the need to have the highest possible allegiance to the US.

MichaelN said...

Mario Apuzzo said to Unknown.....

"I will try one more time to explain it to you. The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained that the Framers defined a “natural born citizen” under the common law the nomenclature with which they were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. It said that under that common law, a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth was not only a citizen as his parents, but also a “natural born citizen,” and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners.” Since the Framers defined an Article II “natural born citizen” under this common law, this law and its definition of a “natural born citizen” became incorporated into the Constitution as constitutional national common law and part of the supreme law of the land, subject to change only by duly ratified constitutional amendment under Article V."

Question for Unknown...

What "common law" was the SCOTUS in Minor v Happersett referring to where the SCOTUS recognized a "natural born citizen" as one who was/is born in US to US citizen parents, yet the SCOTUS held doubts as to whether native-birth to alien parents was enough to even make a citizen at all?

What about you Kev?

What "common law" law was it?

Are you going to go all silent on this again?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I will try one more time to explain it to you. The unanimous..."

Instead of five posts of drivel, how about looking at your claim that I called "ludicrous":

"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/

No, Mr. Apuzzo. It said no such thing. Abraham Lincoln was a, "person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States'". According to you *any* such person could no longer be President. He was President. Look it up.

More prolix essays full of your losing legal arguments will not help you. You know what could? Take me up on my offer. Just say it's no longer your position and let it go. It was a stupid stance and the longer you try to justify it the worse you look.


Blogger Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"After I scolded you as NotLinda for omitting a very critical part of the statute through your ellipses, 'And the children of such person so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under the age of twenty-one years at the time of such naturalization, shall also be considered as citizens of the United States,' you then as Unknown decided to just paraphrase the statue."

Except that the part I elided clearly has nothing to do with the definition of "natural-born citizen".


Blogger Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here is what you said:"

Yes, I'm snipping it hear, but that's what I said. I cannot help but notice that you left out any suggestion that what I said there was wrong. As often happens, tone and context indicate that you disagree, but what you actually write does not.


Blogger Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Now you plead ignorance regarding your arguing that there is no difference between a 'natural born citizen' and a 'citizen of the United States' as used in these statutes, bolstered by your unsupported argument that there is not difference between a 'natural born citizen' and a born citizen."

MMy issue is that you stated, I think falsely, "you add that there is no difference between a 'natural born citizen' and a 'citizen of the United States." My position is, and has been for some years, that the Article II natural born citizens are the proper subset of United States citizens that gained their citizenship upon birth. What you quote me saying is entirely consistent with that position.


Blogger Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You maintained as both NotLinda and here as Unknown, and joined in by Slartibartfast, that there is no substantive difference between the 1790 Naturalization Act and the later naturalization acts."

With the support of two U.S. Supreme Court opinions that *you* brought up.


Blogger Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Do you think that President Washington, James Madison, and the rest of the Third Congress were all so stupid..."

No, they are not the ones I think to be stupid.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"...not to realize that as you maintain that there is no difference between a 'natural born citizen' and a born citizen and therefore there was no need for them to make such a big deal in 1795 of replacing 'natural born citizen' with 'citizen of the United States?'"

So cite where they made "such a big deal" of it.

MichaelN said...

It is an absolutely absurd notion that the Framers of the USC chose from English common law, a term which describes eligibility for a person to be a mere subject to a monarch, and adopt it as descriptive of and a criteria for one who would ALREADY BE A US CITIZEN to be eligible for the highest office of a constitutional republic.

Kev, the majority opinion of the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark case, held that, even though WKA was native-born and his parents' allegiance was measured, both these elements were not sufficient as a "strong check" to rule WKA anymore than a mere "citizen of the United States" and not a NBC.

The SAME majority of SCOTUS in both Minor and Wong, recognized that the USC (which INCLUDED the 14th Amendment) does NOT SAY who shall be a "natural born Citizen".

WKA had a measure of allegiance by a "check" of place allegiance and parents' allegiance and still the court did not consider that "check" as "strong" enough to make a NBC.

So Kev, why do you recognize parents' allegiance as a measure when it come to citizenship for a child born off-shore to US citizen parents, but completely deny parents' allegiance when it come to a child born in US to US citizen parents, especially when a "strong check" of one who is already a citizen of US is the issue at hand for POTUS eligibility?

You think the Framers had no consideration at all for the more complete allegiance of a native-born to citizen parents?





MichaelN said...

Slartybartfast quoted and relied upon...

Vince Treacy said:

"......The evident purpose of the natural born citizenship requirement was to bar naturalized
Citizens from the Presidency."

Response: It was no only to bar the naturalized, but also it had a positive intention to include those with highest allegiance

"The framers feared that grownup foreign royals or nobles might try to sweep into power at the call of desperate citizens. They might be installed by dint of military threats by foreign powers. A charismatic military leader might pose as a savior of the nation. These were all precluded by the Clause.

Response: The Framers didn't do things only out of fear, they sought highest possible allegiance for those who might be eligible for the highest office........ wouldn't you?

Why deliberately settle for anything less?

"Could the foreign-born children of American citizens have fitted into this category of threats?"

Response: Yes they could, but not initially!
That's why the 1795 act abrogated the 1790 act and the children born off-shore to US citizens were demoted to "citizens of the United States", rather than considered as NBC.

"Could the framers have rationally feared citizenship at birth as a foreign influence? The answer from history is clearly "No"."

Response: Yes and no.
Citizenship at birth via native-birth to US citizen parents = no foreign influence, complete and highest allegiance.

Citizenship at birth via off-shore birth to US citizen parents = some foreign influence, weak and uncertain allegiance.

The SCOTUS in the Minor and WKA courts recognized doubts whether children native-born to alien parents were even citizens at all, let alone NBC.

"The First Congress passed a law providing that children of citizens "that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens."

Response: Yes.... then they changed it from considered NBC

(which, by the way, WAS NATUALIZATION - remember, "The evident purpose of the natural born citizenship requirement was to bar naturalized
Citizens from the Presidency"
) to "citizens of the United States", because they did not have the higher allegiance required to make a NBC and be eligible for the office of POTUS.

"....The framers did not fear foreign born infants and expressly conferred natural born citizenship to them."

Response: But they did "fear foreign born infants" and in 1795 expressly stripped their NATURALIZATION as NBC and naturalized them instead as "citizen of the United States" who could only be eligible for the office of POTUS if they had an extra degree of or higher allegiance to the US......... the ONLY other allegiance measure for those born off-shore to have this higher allegiance besides parent's citizenship was native-birth in US.
For those native-born already, the ONLY other measure of allegiance to gain a higher allegiance was to have US citizen parents.

Vince Treacy is full of it!

Unknown said...

barrys judge in NJ used a english common law natural born subject, which he screwed up anyways, to allow usurper on ballot. Chief Justice Marshall and a Justice on the wka court qouted from law of nations to describe the natives or NBCs which is same qoute Chief Justice Waite used from the "common law, in the nomenclature of the Framers". Jay Sekulow said eligiblity does not matter, sure jay you coward. Someone from oryr asked jay about barry being eligible after a town hall and jay was evasive and did not really want to talk about it. Mario has been on the Bill Cunningham show and i have never heard bill or jay mention minor v happersett on Fox. It is obvious to me that the msm is controlled.

MichaelN said...

Allegiance issues in US in the Framing period.

"Many Americans fought for the British cause in the American Revolution. These men were Loyalists (often called Tories, or, occasionally, Royalists or King's Men). They were Americans who remained loyal to Great Britain and the British Crown during the conflict."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loyalists_Fighting_in_the_American_Revolution

Impossible for the children of the Tories to be considered as "natural born citizens", don't you think Kev?

" The Test oath was to enforce a declaration of principle from those who were indifferent to or were secret enemies of the Revolution, state legislators enacted "test" laws. (sic) The oath demanded by these laws varied in different colonies that adopted them, but in general they prescribed loyalty to the patriot cause, disloyalty to the British government, and promise not to aid and abet the enemy. In the Test Acts passed before the Declaration of Independence "the oath of abjuration and allegiance was omitted."(7)

The Tory who refused to take the oath of allegiance became an outlaw. He did not even have the right of a foreigner in the courts of law. If his neighbours owned him money, he had no legal redress. No relative or friend could leave an orphan child to his guardianship. He could not be the administrator or executor of a person's estate. If he was a lawyer, doctor or someone with some other profession, he was often denied the right to practice his profession."

http://threerivershms.com/loyalistspersecution.htm

thalightguy said...

Mario,
Have you seen the U.S. Governments Brief for “Flores-Villar v. United States - 09-5801 (2011)”?

If not, you will be surprised to see the position they are taking regarding children born abroad to citizen parents.

http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/preview/publiced_preview_briefs_pdfs_09_10_09_5801_Respondent.authcheckdam.pdf

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

"If we use Ockham's razor and assume that John Jay underlined the word "born" to indicate the importance of being born a citizen rather than becoming a citizen later in life, it becomes clear that John Jay's letter to President Washington actually argues against the birther position."

Definition of Self-Induced Myopia: The inability of Obamunists to see facts right in front of their faces.

Your statement is factual but blind and foolish since it conveniently leaves out that pesky, "non-existent" word "NATURAL". It is mandatory in order to maintain your delusion that that word disappear because its implication is that one cannot be merely a citizen at or from birth, but must be a natural citizen by birth (to citizens), -a blood citizen, -citizen-born and not alien-born.
But you are right that Jay had a definite reason for underlining Born, and anyone who can't explain it is in the dark as to what is meant by nbc. So far, I'm the only one to explain it without leaving out or distorting significant facts.

MichaelN said...

Try this Kev and Unknown.

It is a proven fact that the term "natural born" subject/citizen is used as a descriptor for one who is born under the allegiance of their parents, even the Wong Kim Ark case has this holding and opinion, where Wong was held to be a "citizen of the United States" under the 14th Amendment, due to TWO elements,
1)native-born
and 2)parents' allegiance (i.e. long-term domicile and business productive contribution to the US community they resided in).

So where exactly do you get the idea that native-birth is all that is required to make one "natural born" or for that matter even a "citizen of the United States" in the US scenario?

It's nowhere in the English common law, it's nowhere in the US law!

You go around chanting and shouting that US got it all from the English common law and you say words to the effect...."a native-born to an alien is a natural born subject in England, therefore a native-born to an alien is a natural born citizen in US".

Partly true, and lacking THE MOST IMPORTANT part that without allegiance of the parents, then a native-born cannot be a subject at all.

What you really should be saying, considering that it already is a given, that when we talk about what constitutes a NBC in the US POTUS eligibility context, we are talking about those who are already native-born and thus not naturalized people, i.e. there was never any implication that non-native-born were in the loop at all..... what you should be saying, is that....

"according to English common law an alien was considered a subject, and because of this, his native-born children were natural born subjects, if the alien was not considered as a subject (e.g. an enemy or diplomat)then native-birth was COMPLETELY USELESS to make his child a "natural born" or a subject at all.

But, going by your performances to date, I doubt that you have the courage to accept and acknowledge the truth, and so you go around chanting your absurd mantra ad nauseam, like a broken record.

Kev and/or Unknown, can you show me where in English common law, that it was held that native-birth was all that was required to make a natural born subject?

I can't find it anywhere.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Cunningham's Law Dictionary gave this factual (as opposed to legal) definition of "natural born subject":

"All those are natural born subjects, whose parents, at the time of their birth, were under the actual obedience of our king, and whose place of birth was within his dominions."

But there's a problem in that the statement of who is an nbs is not an actual definition because it doesn't state that no one else is an nbs. The ones described are not defined as the only NBS and therein lies the miscontruence and misconception.
Everyone so described ("all") are NBS but others not so described are NOT declared to not be NBS under any circumstances. If that kind of description had been given, it would be a true definition. No such definition has ever been given.

Those not mentioned (the non-native-born) are also NBS but are of a number so small as to be insignificant and thus automatically overlooked. Out of sight and out of mind.

General "definitions" do not throw in all possible details of all exceptions that are extremely rare and thus insignificant. That is not how humans think nor talk nor write, and so you end up with incomplete descriptions that are not true definitions because they require far more disambiguation.

Just turn the tables 180 degrees and one can see the magnitude of the error. Suppose it stated that all are natural born subjects who were born of subjects outside of the national borders. That would say that native-birth did not a natural subject make but a blood connection was the source of natural subjection, and that would be the national truth of the matter.
But what would be missing? All of the vast majority of natural subjects who were born within the national boundaries, -they comprising 98% of the national population. Opps! Slight over-sight. Slightly incorrect by omission.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

I've clued you folks into the supremacy of Natural Law and its fundamental force as the origin of Natural Citizenship. Now I've come across this from the Calvin case:

"First, That the ligeance or faith of the Subject is due unto the King by the Law of Nature: Secondly, That the Law of Nature is part of the Law of England: Thirdly, That the Law of Nature was before any Judicial or Municipal Law: Fourthly, That the Law of Nature is Immutable. [Gee, that sounds like my writing.]
...that which God at the time of creation of the nature of man infused into his heart, for his preservation and direction; - this is lex aeterna,the Law Eternal, called also the Law of Nature.

.....By this Law of Nature is the Faith, Ligeance, and Obedience of the Subject due to his Sovereign or Superiour.

...Whatsoever is due by the law or constitution of man, may be altered: But natural ligeance or obedience of the subject to the Sovereign cannot be altered; ergo natural ligeance or obedience to the Sovereign is not due by the law or constitution of man.

It hath been proved before, that ligeance or obedience of the inferior to the superior, of the subject to the Sovereign, was due by the Law of Nature many thousand years before any Law of man was made.
~~~
"Ergo: the word "natural" in English common law relates to allegiance to the sovereign due by the Law of Nature, it is NOTHING to do with native-birth."

ps; I also read that the difference between a subject and a citizen is the right of expatriation. One is either free or is owned for life by a monarch.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown (we can see why she wants to keep it that way), a/k/a NotLinda (like NotNaturalBornCitizen),

I of II

Seen that your intelligence is limited in the amount of words that it can absorb at any given time, I will keep this shorter.

Spring will soon be here and we will all be enjoying our nation’s favorite pass time. So let’s talk a little baseball. Even though you have long ago struck out on this blog, let me offer you a little baseball logic. Here is what your interpretation of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 looks like in simple form. Let us assume that a local little league has a rule for who can play in the league. The rule is that if a child is at least 10 years old on June 1, 2000 (the grandfather cut-off date) but not older than 12 years old (hence he/she was born on or before June 1, 1990 but not earlier than June 1, 1988), then the child can play in the league. But after June 1, 2000, no child who is not at least 11 years old and not older than 13 years old can play (hence a child who wants to play on June 1, 2010 must have been born on or before June 1, 1999 but not before June 1, 1998).

To provide understanding for my baseball metaphor, the players that were too old to play are not “citizens of the United States.” The players that were grandfathered at age 11 to be able to play are “citizens of the United States.” And the players that had to meet the higher age requirement of 12 years are “natural born citizens.”

Under your twisted logic, you would have us believe that a child who is 10 years old after June 1, 2000 (e.g. on June 1, 2010, a child that was born on June 1, 2000 or sooner but after June 1, 1999) (which makes the child a “citizen of the United States”) can continue to play in that little league after June 1, 2000, when the rule says that after June 1, 2000, a child must be at least 11 years old (a “natural born citizen”). Now of course, all 12-year-olds (“natural born citizens”) could have also played in that league under the old rule when they were just 10 years old (are also “citizens of the United States” and entitled to all their privileges, immunities, and rights). But no 11-year-old child as such and no more (a “citizen of the United States” and no more) is or can be also a 12-year-old child (a “natural born citizen”), meaning that the 11-year-old child cannot play in the little league after the league’s grandfather period expired (after the adoption of the Constitution). This metaphor brings to home plate how right I am and how wrong you are.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Now let me score some more runs just for insurance purposes. You insist that there is some mythical “citizen of the United States” that existed after the Constitution was adopted, but before the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment, which some law called a “citizen of the United States” and defined that person not only as a “citizen of the United States” but also as a “natural born citizen,” meaning that if that person could satisfy a requirement to be a “citizen of the United States” under that law, that person was also a “natural born citizen.” (I am not suggesting that the Civil Rights Act or the Fourteenth Amendment provide any such language and effect.) To prove that, rather than citing for us any actual law that was in existence at that time that proves your point, you boldly maintain that Abraham Lincoln was both a “citizen of the United States” and a “natural born citizen” and therefore I’m “nuts” in how I interpret Article II.

Let me try to bring you back to actually answering my question. Abraham Lincoln was born in Kentucky on February 12, 1809 to parents who were U.S. citizens. Please tell us all what law was in effect at the time of his birth which provided in its text that Abraham Lincoln was a “citizen of the United States” (I did not just write “natural born citizen”). Just so you do not mess this up, the law must in its text say that someone born in the circumstances in which Lincoln was born was then declared to be a “citizen of the United States.” As further help so you do not blow this, be sure to cite the actual law then in effect rather than just say that today everyone who is sane knows that Lincoln was a "citizen of the United States” under then-existing law and that only a crank Birther would ask such a question. Also, little cute stories about the courts in which I have chosen to bring my Obama eligibility cases and about “real world authorities,” which you continue to tell us ad nauseum on this blog do not count as anything even close to an intelligent and meaningful answer.

Happy “citizen of the United States” hunting!

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger a/k/a Adrien Nash,

I of II

You said that Cunningham in his famous law dictionary defined “natural born subjects” as follows:

"All those are natural born subjects, whose parents, at the time of their birth, were under the actual obedience of our king, and whose place of birth was within his dominions."

You said that this is not a legal definition because it does not exclude anyone from being a “natural born citizen.” You add that the statement does not say that those persons described are the only ones who are “natural born subjects” and therefore does not exclude others.

What Cunningham said is that all “whose parents, at the time of their birth, were under the actual obedience of our king, and whose place of birth was within his dominions" are “natural born subjects.” He did not say that all “natural born subjects” are those “whose parents, at the time of their birth, were under the actual obedience of our king, and whose place of birth was within his dominions." We do not know whether that is what he intended because we do not know upon what source he relied to make his statement. (Maybe you can tell us his source.) So you are correct that based on what we have from the selected quote you provided, we cannot conclude that he exclude anyone from being a “natural born subject.”

But this is not the way a “natural born citizen” (not to be confused for a "natural-born subject") has been defined. Emer de Vattel in Section 212 of the Law of Nations said:

“The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see, whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”

See Minor v. Happersett (1875) (“At common law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners,” which is a paraphrase of Vattel’s definition). Vattel said “the” citizens “are” and that “the” natives, or natural-born citizens “are.” He did not say “some” citizens are. He did not say “some” natives, or natural-born citizens are. So, what he really said is that “all” citizens are and “all” natives, or natural-born citizens” are. The word “all” is a word of universality. When “all” is used with “are,” we have a universal affirmative. Whatever description we ascribe to “all” simple means that everything in that group has those characteristics. For example, if I said all poodles are dogs, every poodle is a dog. That means that if some animal is not a dog, it cannot be a poodle.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Likewise, Vattel said that all citizens are members of civil society. That means that if someone is not a member of that civil society, then that person cannot be a citizen and vice versa. Vattel also said all natives, or natural-born citizens are born in the country, of parents who are citizens. This means that if one is not born in the country, of parents who are citizens, then one cannot be a “natural-born citizen” and vice versa.

Vattel distinguished between children “entering into society” and children “becoming members of that it.” From what he wrote we can see that by being born in the country, the child enters society. But only by being born to citizen parents does that child not only enter society, but also becomes a member of it by inheriting the right to be a member of it from his parents who are already members at the time of his or her birth.

Vattel also explained that “in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” This also means that “it is necessary” that a child be born of a citizen father (meaning citizen parents) in order to make the place of his birth his country rather than only the place of his birth. So, “his country” means the nation one loves and for which one feels complete allegiance, loyalty, and faith. One’s place of birth means only the physical place where one’s mother was when she gave birth and nothing more.

So, from what Vattel wrote, we can see that he included and excluded persons from being “natural born citizens.” Minor did the same when it said that under the common law all the rest of the people who were neither “citizens” nor “natural born citizens” were “aliens or foreigners.” Hence, the conditions that Vattel and Minor provided for one to be a “natural born citizen” are both necessary and sufficient conditions.

Thus, what Vattel described is that all “natural born citizens” have to possess those given characteristics. If a person does not contain those characteristics, that person is not and cannot be a “natural born citizen” for the simple reason that the person does not have all the characteristics which all “natural born citizens” have. So, since all “natural born citizens” are born in the country, of parents who are citizens, someone who was not born in the country (did not enter the society at the time of birth) is not a “natural born citizen.” Likewise, if someone who is born in the country is not born to citizen parents (entered the society at the time of birth, but did not become a full member of the society at the time of birth because at that time did not have parents who were already members of the society who could each pass to the child at the time of his birth the right to that membership) that person is not a “natural born citizen.” Of course, if someone is born out of the United States to alien parents, that person is also not a “natural born subject.”

So, under Vattel’s definition of a “natural born citizen,” which was accepted by way of paraphrase by both Minor and Wong Kim Ark, your hypothetical child born out of the United States (did not enter American society at the time of birth) is not a “natural born citizen.” Nor is a child who is born in the United States to parents who were not U.S. citizens at the time of his or her birth (entered American society at the time of birth, but did not become a full member of its society at that time) a “natural born citizen.”

Slartibartfast said...

Mario said:

15. Regarding “President Madison's quote about place of birth being the "most certain" criterion of allegiance, yes, place of birth is the “most certain” criterion of allegiance because knowing where one is born is much easier to know than who one’s natural parents are.

Which brings up the point that the parentage of a native born presidential candidate has never been questioned before President Obama. Why is that? If citizen parents were necessary, then why was the topic never brought up (when, at the very least, President Arthur was not born to citizen parents and Vice President Agnew's father may not have naturalized until after he was born. The citizenship of a person's (aged 35 or more) parents at the time of the person's birth would have been nigh impossible for anyone to establish for most of our country's history.

But that simple fact does not make place of birth the only criterion of allegiance,

No, it doesn't.

or that it is even sufficient for any given purpose at any given time,

Except that Madison goes on to say that it IS sufficient---if we know someone satisfies the place of birth criterion, we don't have to investigate any other criteria.

for being the most certain criterion in any given time does not mean being the only criterion for all time.

There's the straw man to distract from the cherry picking fallacy I pointed out above.

This reality is easily proven.

Yes, you can easily prove that the straw man argument is false---that's kind of the point. Unfortunately, doing the same for my real argument isn't quite so easy...

As to your error that place of birth is the only criterion,

Straw man again---place of birth is merely the "most certain" criterion which, if it is satisfied, is sufficient to establish citizenship.

Slartibartfast said...

I would note that those who sided with the British in the Revolution could be considered "enemy aliens" not subject to the jurisdiction, making their native-born children aliens as well. Just sayin'...

thalightguy said...

Will the U.S. Government change the Position they took in "Flores-Villar v. United States - 09-5801 (2011) " to allow Senator Cruz to run for President in 2016?

Slartibartfast said...

Mario said:

"19. Finally, you want to know about what you allege to be “all of the arguments that you quite obviously lost on Jonathan Turley's blog 4 years ago.” If I lost my arguments on the Jonathan Turley blog 4 years ago, I do not understand why you have not used the material there showing that I am wrong in your comments here. After all, why would you, in the famous words of New Jersey ALJ Masin, want to reinvent the wheel? Since you have been a total failure here, it only follows that no one on any Jonathan Turley blog posted anything refuting my position on the meaning of a “natural born citizen.” "

Your comments on the Turley blog (and the replies of Vince Treacy) are on multiple threads with thousands of posts between them. Ferreting out comments on a particular topic along with the appropriate responses would require software that could collect the html source from every thread, mine it to gather all of the metadata from each comment into a database, and analyze it to find the relevant posts. It just so happens that I wrote a program that does exactly that a couple of years ago, but finding the very best argument to debunk your theories isn't the point---the point is to see how well I can argue the case after 5 years of listening to skilled attorneys like Mr. Treacy and the Monty Obot legal team over at the Fogbow.

In my time here, I've amused myself as well as the HHGTTG Obots back at the Fogbow, gotten valuable practice dissecting arguments and identifying the fallacies being used (special thanks to Mr. Nash---it's challenging to catalogue that many flaws), gotten email from a respected friend complementing my arguments, made birtherstani village idiot A. R. Nash call me all sorts of names which are so obviously untrue that it only makes him look like more of a hate-filled bigot and fool---not an easy task given the inanity and self-contradictory nature of his theories, gotten your lickspittle MichaelN to cherry pick the same passages out of Calvin's case for approximately the 11,436,948,275th time, exchanged some witty banter and had a little actual good faith discussion with Unknown and gotten you to make a 19 point response in five parts (Suranis gave me a Fogbow award for that---I'll be getting extra money in my check from Mr. Soros this month...).

I'm pretty pleased with those results. What do you have to show for the thousands of words you've written in response to me?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote:
Vattel said “the” citizens or natural-born citizens “are” He did not say “some” citizens or natural-born citizens "are".

[HE ALSO DID NOT SAY THAT "ONLY... ARE..." His words contain no exclusive inclusion nor exclusion.]

So, what he really said is that “all” citizens are and “all” natives, or natural-born citizens” are.

The word “all” is a word of universality. When “all” is used with “are,” we have a universal affirmative.
Whatever description we ascribe to “all” simple means that everything in that group has those characteristics."


That last sentence torpedoes your logic by being true. Everyone so described by Vattel belongs to the native or natural subject group. That doesn't imply the opposite, -that the group belong only to them.

"All children born to my wife in my house are my natural born children." That's an identical statement to Vattel's, -and its fallacy is transparent for all to see.
What about children born to my wife at her mother's home or a hospital? By your blind logic, they are not my children!!! Explain that!

That's a rhetorical challenge which is impossible to fulfill.

Let's dissect NBC. "A" is membership by Natural principle, meaning by blood connection. "B" is membership ascribed by birth location, meaning human policy. "C" is nationality assignment; Citizenship.

We have four possibilities;
1. Only A = C;
2. Only B = C;
3. Only A + B = C, or
4. Both A & B = C.

1. = only me.
2. = only obots
3. = only Donofri-puzians
4. = Maskellians

Only #1 is correct because only it follows Natural Law.

~a massively informational website I've been locked into: http://the-constitutionist.com/Page_5.html#A_Review_at_Amazon.com

English law history up the ying-yang.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti proclaimed: "place of birth is the “most certain” criterion of allegiance because knowing where one is born is much easier to know than who one’s natural parents are."

That's a ridiculous falsehood. Neither can be "known" although birth place leaves a record. But guess what, it also shows the name of the parents! Both may be false, just as they are with witness relocation records falsified and passed off as true, as well as adoption from birth records.

Obama's vital record is either a false affidavit or a true birth record amended to show his adoption by his grand parents, -who no doubt adopted him and obtained a tax exemption by it. But stolen INS airline arrival records argue for the former. His mother, and grandmother flew him from Vancouver (where he was born) to Hawaii on August 6th, where he was checked into a hospital.

MichaelN said...

Kev, you are evading answering a few questions, one in particluar, i.e.where in English common law was it ever held that native-birth alone sufficed to make a subject- born?

And whilst you are at it, you might like to show where in English common law it was held that the term "natural born" actually was with reference to solely native-born.

Calvin's case....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:

....The place is observable, but so as many times ligeance or obedience without any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions without obedience can never produce a natural subject.

....Whatsoever is due by the law or constitution of man, may be altered: But natural ligeance or obedience of the subject to the Sovereign cannot be altered; ergo natural ligeance or obedience to the Sovereign is not due by the law or constitution of man. Again, whatsoever is due by the Law of Nature, cannot be altered: But ligeance and obedience of the subject to the Sovereign is due by the law of Nature; ergo it cannot be altered. It hath been proved before, that ligeance or obedience of the inferior to the superior, of the subject to the Sovereign, was due by the Law of Nature many thousand years before any Law of man was made: Which ligeance or obedience (being the onely mark to distinguish a subject from an alien) could not be altered; therefore it remaineth still due by the Law of Nature.

....That ligeance, or obedience of the subject to the Sovereign, is due by the Law of nature:"

Going all quiet on this point are we Kev?

MichaelN said...

Kev, you are evading answering a few questions, one in particluar, i.e.where in English common law was it ever held that native-birth alone sufficed to make a subject- born?

And whilst you are at it, you might like to show where in English common law it was held that the term "natural born" actually was with reference to solely native-born.

Calvin's case....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:

....The place is observable, but so as many times ligeance or obedience without any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions without obedience can never produce a natural subject.

....Whatsoever is due by the law or constitution of man, may be altered: But natural ligeance or obedience of the subject to the Sovereign cannot be altered; ergo natural ligeance or obedience to the Sovereign is not due by the law or constitution of man. Again, whatsoever is due by the Law of Nature, cannot be altered: But ligeance and obedience of the subject to the Sovereign is due by the law of Nature; ergo it cannot be altered. It hath been proved before, that ligeance or obedience of the inferior to the superior, of the subject to the Sovereign, was due by the Law of Nature many thousand years before any Law of man was made: Which ligeance or obedience (being the onely mark to distinguish a subject from an alien) could not be altered; therefore it remaineth still due by the Law of Nature.

....That ligeance, or obedience of the subject to the Sovereign, is due by the Law of nature:"

Going all quiet on this point are we Kev?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

I'm still awaiting to hear Slarti or Unknown's or Mario's explanation for John Jay underlining the word "Born".

That is something that one cannot do if using a legal term of artifice. They all have unitarian meanings. Only common language words can be underlined.

You have no explanations because your dogmas hold no water. I shouldn't say that since they do hold some, but they are also full of holes and it all leaks out because of logic errors which lead to false conclusions.

British subjectship came in various forms that were not equal. That was unacceptable to the founders who stood shoulder-to-shoulder with foreigners who they treated as the equals that they were, -equals in rebellion, and potential equals in hanging. My great, great, great, great, great grandfather was one of them. (The Marquis de la Porte)

All citizens of the successfully liberated nation were equal by all being accepted as fellow natural citizens under the American doctrine of equal citizenship.

But not just any sort of natural citizen could be handed the reins of power. He had to be BORN as a natural citizen after the revolution generation had passed.

THAT is what Jay was conveying.

There is no other explanation because those words were NOT a term of art. Remember the rule: you can't underline individual words of a term of art. Check-Mate, mates.

Slartibartfast said...

I of II

Everything must come to an end and it's long past time to put this part of my life behind me. The birther movement, while always ineffectual, has become completely insignificant and I have better things to do with my time than pay attention to endless repetition of long-debunked arguments by dishonest, hate-filled fools. I didn't want you to think that I ran away or got distracted by something shiny---I just decided that further interaction with birthers isn't in any way worthwhile.

It has been said that everyone is entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts. The problem with the birthers is that no only do they want their own facts, they wont admit it when they are wrong even if directly confronted with facts to the contrary. This started from the very beginning when Polarik and Techdude came up with incompetent analyses claiming President Obama's COLB was a forgery immediately after it was released. They were both quickly debunked yet, as far as I know, no birther ever admitted that they were wrong. Here are some other facts that you must acknowledge and address before you can make any kind of claim to having an honest argument:

President Obama was, for all practical purposes, born in Hawai'i. As far as any US court is concerned President Obama was born in Hawai'i. As long as the State of Hawai'i says someone was born in Hawai'i, you can't question the facts of their birth without questioning the facts of everyone's birth. It is obvious to anyone with a modicum of objectivity that no birther could prove the facts of their own birth to the same degree that President Obama has, let alone the impossible standard they wish to hold him to---what kind of credibility does a person with such an egregious double standard have?

The SCOTUS in Minor did not define the term "natural born citizen". Definitions are necessary and sufficient conditions. While the court provided a sufficient condition it explicitly declined to establish a necessary condition. Mario's contention that the context of the sufficient condition is different from that of the necessary condition (in the same sentence) that they failed to endorse is ridiculous on its face.

Minor was a case about voting rights, not citizenship. This means that their comments about citizenship were merely dicta---especially since the issue of Ms. Minor's citizenship was not contested. The idea that a short, unsupported passage in Minor is a better argument than an extensive, well researched and well referenced rationale from Wong is ludicrous.

To the extent that they disagree, Wong necessarily supersedes Minor. Just like the Constitution where the later Amendments have more weight than the earlier ones and the original text, later judicial rulings outweigh prior ones---unless the ruling is specifically contradicted by an Amendment to the Constitution. Like the Dred Scott decision.

The French word parens, as written in Vattel, is not synonymous with the English term "parents", but rather means blood relatives. President Obama does, in fact, have citizen parens---according to Vattel, he is an indigenous person.

In Wong Kim Ark the state made the argument that if the court ruled Mr. Wong a citizen then he would be eligible for the presidency. Ignoring this is a dead giveaway that you have no response and this, coupled with the fact that Mr. Wong could not, by law, be naturalized (which, by itself, invalidates most of MichaelN's arguments) and the declaration that Mr. Wong was as much a citizen as the natural born child of citizens and by operation of the same principle, makes your position untenable.

These are but a few of the facts that birthers try to ignore---something both readily apparent and indicative of birther integrity. If you insist on your own facts instead then your dishonesty is patently obvious.

Continued...

Slartibartfast said...

II of II

Unknown aka Not Linda,

I've enjoyed your comments here and over at Cafe Con Leche and leave toying with the three stooges in your capable hands. So long, and thanks for all the fish.

Mr. Nash,

Your comments show you to be not just ignorant but completely deluded regarding the law and how it works. Every single one of your theories suffers from internal contradictions, not to mention being contrary to facts and illogical. Furthermore, as far as I can tell, nothing you say about President Obama is correct. Didn't anyone ever tell you not to bear false witness against your neighbor? Are you not a Christian or just not a very good one?


MichaelN,

You deserve every second of your horrible punishment: to live the rest of your life as the dishonest, narrow-minded seditionist that you have shown yourself to be.

Mario,

I know this comment has precious little legal argument in it and you generally don't let those through moderation (which is your right---it's your blog and you set the standards), but I hope you will make an exception in this case as it is the final post I will make as an anti-birther and doing so will only deprive yourself of one last chance to declare victory over me. Either way, I don't feel you have been trying to practice censorship here and that is certainly to your credit. The cherry picking, straw men, obfuscation with excessive verbiage, fallacious analogies, begging the question and logical inanities, not so much.

I'll leave you with one final reference---it's not from Monty Python, but I think it's in the right spirit...

Wanda: I was dealing with something delicate, Otto. I'm setting up a guy who's incredibly important to us, who's going to tell me where the loot is and if they're going to come and arrest you. And you come loping in like Rambo without a jockstrap and you dangle him out a fifth-floor window. Now, was that smart? Was it shrewd? Was it good tactics? Or was it stupid?


Otto West: Don't call me stupid.


Wanda: Oh, right! To call you stupid would be an insult to stupid people! I've known sheep that could outwit you. I've worn dresses with higher IQs. But you think you're an intellectual, don't you, ape?


Otto West: Apes don't read philosophy.


Wanda: Yes they do, Otto. They just don't understand it. Now let me correct you on a couple of things, OK? Aristotle was not Belgian. The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself." And the London Underground is not a political movement. Those are all mistakes, Otto. I looked them up.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Unknown (we can see why she wants to keep it that way), a/k/a NotLinda"

You never asked. Are you asking now?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Even though you have long ago struck out on this blog, let me offer you a little baseball logic."

It's your same logic. When you play umpire, I strike out every time. Different story when you ventured outside your fantasy league. In your head you bat a thousand. In reality, zero.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Here is what your interpretation of Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 looks like in simple form."

Yeah, thing is, Mr. Apuzzo, when I attribute a stupid position to you, I quote you taking it, as I did above and will again below.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Let us assume that a local little league has a rule for who can play in the league. The rule is that if a child is at least 10 years old on June 1, 2000 (the grandfather cut-off date) but not older than 12 years old (hence he/she was born on or before June 1, 1990 but not earlier than June 1, 1988), then the child can play in the league. But after June 1, 2000, no child who is not at least 11 years old and not older than 13 years old can play (hence a child who wants to play on June 1, 2010 must have been born on or before June 1, 1999 but not before June 1, 1998)."

I'm not clear on how you got that from the Article II grandfather clause, but in any case, it's all your own.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Under your twisted logic, you would have us believe that a child who is 10 years old after[...]'

Not my logic, no. On the other hand, Mr. Apuzzo, here is what you actually got from the Article II clause:

"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.
http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/

That ludicrous claim was the basis of your laughable question, "how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?" [ibid]


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"To prove that, rather than citing for us any actual law that was in existence at that time that proves your point, you boldly maintain that Abraham Lincoln was both a 'citizen of the United States' and a “natural born citizen” and therefore I’m 'nuts' in how I interpret Article II. "

Then readers look above and see that I did cite the law that proves it. So did Slartibartfast. A.R. Nash got this one. It's in the Constitution: "No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States". Lincoln was a Representative in the U.S. House from 4 March 1847 to 4 March 1849, and therefore, in the language of the Constitution itself, a "Citizen of the United States". He was born in 1809, after the adoption of the Constitution. You, Mr. Apuzzo, claimed:

"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."

Abraham Lincoln was the 16'th President of the United States.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast wrote:
"I've enjoyed your comments here and over at Cafe Con Leche and leave toying with the three stooges in your capable hands. So long, and thanks for all the fish."

Thanks. Like your work too. Double-bonus on that bit about the parrot pining for the fjords that you designed.

Hope to cross paths again. Till then,

"So remember when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely was your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth."
-- Galaxy Song, Monty Python's Meaning of Life, 1983. Lyrics by Eric Idol.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti barked: "In Wong Kim Ark the state made the argument that if the court ruled Mr. Wong a citizen then he would be eligible for the presidency. Ignoring this is a dead giveaway that you have no response and this"

You are right. Such ignorance does deserve a response. But first, please cite the U.S. statute that confirmed his baseless, jus soli concept of citizenship as applicable to natural citizenship. Oh, I forgot, none exists!

So what was the source of his misconception? Off-hand, I'd say he was a citizen of one of the jus soli citizenship-granting states and was indoctrinated thoroughly into that fallacious view of the United States as a whole.

What force exists to prevent one from speaking from the standpoint of an erroneous assumption? Oh yeah, NONE! You do it with nearly all of the boneheaded things you write.
There seems to be no limiting force on you, just as there was none on him.
It is absurd to presume that we today could hold erroneous views but he, back then, could not.

The falsity of his view was in thinking that all citizenship other than naturalized citizenship was indistinguishable. Being ignorant of Natural Law and its supremacy over nationality, he presumed falsely that citizenship AT birth must be the same as citizenship BY birth. But he was totally wrong. Or else the Constitution would have read: "No person except a native-born citizen..."

You who believe in your superior understanding, please explain to us exactly why "native-born" was not chosen if that is what they meant. You who claim that others don't answer simple logical questions have many hanging over your own head which you dare not and cannot address.

Including: Why did John Jay underline "born"?

Why did the founders and framers in the first Congress mention American children born abroad when they had no authority to interfere with their natural national membership?

Those children were not in the United States as were children of foreigners whose naturalization they had the authority to regulate via a nation-wide uniform rule.
But they mentioned them anyway. Why?
Answer: to protect their unalienable citizenship rights as off-spring of free citizens. One right in particular; the right to be President. There was no other reason that you can explain since it was never presumed that American children could be label as foreign aliens.
If they, as logic dictates, were natural born citizens, as you can't explain, then your native-birth theory of U.S. national membership evaporates. Along with that of the US Attorney that made the remark that you hold high, as well as Mario's compound amalgamation theory .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown a/k/a NotLinda,

I said:

"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.”

You said:

“That ludicrous claim was the basis of your laughable question, "how could one be a 'citizen of the United States' and also be a 'natural born Citizen' at the same time?" [ibid]

I said:

"To prove that, rather than citing for us any actual law that was in existence at that time that proves your point, you boldly maintain that Abraham Lincoln was both a 'citizen of the United States' and a “natural born citizen” and therefore I’m 'nuts' in how I interpret Article II. "

You said:

Then readers look above and see that I did cite the law that proves it. So did Slartibartfast. A.R. Nash got this one. It's in the Constitution: "No Person shall be a Representative who shall not have attained to the Age of twenty five Years, and been seven Years a Citizen of the United States". Lincoln was a Representative in the U.S. House from 4 March 1847 to 4 March 1849, and therefore, in the language of the Constitution itself, a "Citizen of the United States". He was born in 1809, after the adoption of the Constitution. You, Mr. Apuzzo, claimed:

"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President."

Abraham Lincoln was the 16'th President of the United States.
"The grandfather clause in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 said that any person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was a 'citizen of the United States' could no longer be President.

http://www.caaflog.com/2010/11/28/this-week-in-military-justice-28-november-2010-edition/comment-page-6/

+++

Reply:

You are still having difficulty understanding Article II. I have asked you this several times before, but other than your just repeating your Lincoln example, you have yet to provide a responsive answer.

Both Minor and Wong Kim Ark told us that the original Constitution does not define either a “citizen of the United States” or a “natural born citizen.” Hence, citing Article I, Section 2 and 3 as you keep doing does help you, for that Article says that a person wanting to be a Representative or Senator has to be a “Citizen of the United States” for at least 7 and 9 years, respectively, and does not define what a “Citizen of the United States” is. So, Lincoln simply could not rely upon Article I to prove that he was a “citizen of the United States.” Rather, given that you say that he was a “citizen of the United States,” you have to be able to cite for me what law you are relying upon to prove that he was a “citizen of the United States.”

So, I need for you to cite for me some applicable law that was in effect when Lincoln was born in 1809 (which is pre-Civil Rights Act of 1866 and 14th Amendment) that called a person with Lincoln’s birth circumstances, i.e., born in the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents, a “citizen of the United States” and thus made him eligible for Congress under Article I, Section 2. I see that Slartibartfast was also not able to find the law that I am asking you to find. As for Adrien Nash getting this right, he only copied the Obot position which is also yours. So, he did not get anything right. If he feels that he did get this right, then he can also try to meet my challenge. Maybe both of you can work together to find that special pre-Civil Rights Act and Fourteenth Amendment law which you tell us calls a person born under circumstances as Abraham Lincoln a “citizen of the United States.”

Can you meet my challenge or can you just honestly admit that you cannot find any such law which takes a person who meets the definition of a “natural born citizen” under the common law and calls him a “citizen of the United States?”

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti ambiguated: "-coupled with the fact that Mr. Wong could not, by law, be naturalized ...and the declaration that Mr. Wong was as much a citizen as the natural born child of citizens and by operation of the same principle, makes your position untenable."

There is an explanation. One you won't accept regardless of it making perfect sense. It's this:

Ambiguity. You think you understand what "as much a citizen" means, but do you really? It can only be referring to one thing and that is inequality of citizenship.

His assertion was that Wong had every single right of citizenship as an NBC, but when he resorted to using the term nbc he had in mind every right and privilege that natural citizens have, but failed to contemplate the inclusion of the one lone, extremely rare, unique and powerful office of the President.
Why on earth would one have that in mind when making a comparison of quality of citizenship, -when essentially no one is ever President?

Presidents are as rare as super lottery winners. They have no place in conversation about the subject of equality of citizenship. One has a far better chance of being struck by lightning and living than of being President.

His point was that Wong, by the principle of Citizenship Equality, was equal to natural citizens because America has no inferior citizen class. "as much a citizen"

And... ALL CITIZENS ARE NATURAL CITIZENS, whether natural citizen-born, or foreign-alien-born, or natural-ized.

It didn't matter if your ancestors came over on the Mayflower or your naturalization began yesterday, -YOU WERE EQUAL. There was NO American aristocracy of citizenship.

Do you understand now?

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Slarti barfed: Mr. Nash,

"Your comments show you to be not just ignorant but completely deluded regarding the law and how it works."

The delusion is all yours. It results from you inability to differentiate between actual law and the government policy enforced as law. Almost nothing that I've written deals with what you erroneously believe is actual law.

I deal primarily with the written law and its original meaning. You avoid dealing with that except to twist it into pretzels.

You hold up the enforced and consensus-opinion version of law which is falsely represented as the real law, when it isn't unless it comports with original text and meaning, -which it does not.

"Every single one of your theories suffers from internal contradictions, not to mention being contrary to facts and illogical."

And yet, no matter how long I wait, you refuse to address my insights because you cannot refute any of them since the facts are not on your side.
Instead you stoop to the wretched low of employing Alynskyite mockery to drive away any responsibility to respond to my many, many points that destroy your whole foundation regarding the nature of citizenship.

I don't blame you. I'd do the same thing if I were you. But I could never be you because what you are is fundamentally dishonest but too blind to recognize your own nature.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said.......

"But not just any sort of natural citizen could be handed the reins of power. He had to be BORN as a natural citizen after the revolution generation had passed."

Reply:
The framers required native-birth in the US as well as "natural citizenship" to satisfy the eligibility criteria for the office of POTUS, that way "not just any sort of natural citizen could be handed the reins of power"..... right?

A comparison of the 1790 and 1795 naturalization acts shows this and you have already been shown on umpteen occasions that native-birth was and is an essential measure of allegiance, otherwise Wong Kim Ark would not have been ruled to be a citizen of the US at all.

The weak allegiance of Wong's native-birth alone was not enough to get Wong over the line and same for his alien parents' weak allegiance; it took BOTH place allegiance and parents' allegiance combined, for Wong to make "citizen of the United States", in fact native-birth was the prerequisite criteria.

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"Everything must come to an end and it's long past time to put this part of my life behind me. The birther movement, while always ineffectual, has become completely insignificant and I have better things to do with my time than pay attention to endless repetition of long-debunked arguments by dishonest, hate-filled fools. I didn't want you to think that I ran away or got distracted by something shiny---I just decided that further interaction with birthers isn't in any way worthwhile."

Translation: "I can't answer the hard questions put to me, so I had better run away, the lies I promote have been exposed"

What a joke you are Kev.

Stranger said...

a.r.nash writes:

Mario wrote: "you cannot find any such law which takes a person who meets the definition of a “natural born citizen” under the common law and calls him a “citizen of the United States?”

Actually, that is possible merely by referencing the Naturalization Act of 1795. That all American children are U.S. natural born citizens was settled forever by the act of 1790, written and/ or passed by many of the framers of the Constitution.
They actually knew what the reality of American citizenship was. And that is American parentage. Americans produce Americans. Citizens produce Citizens. Period.

It is too simple for you to accept because of all of the warped doctrine you have embraced. Add anything to it and it is no longer natural citizenship. It is an amalgamation. A Frankenstein. A hybrid basis.

No hybrid is natural.
You use the term "under the common law" and yet no one can find it anywhere except in people's minds. All you need to do to grasp the truth is change "common law" to Natural Law, and the challenge is met.

The Act of 1795 "takes a person who meets the definition of a “natural born citizen” under NATURAL LAW and calls him a “citizen of the United States?”

That does NOT involve ANY diminishment or change of his status because like the other 97% of the population, he is still an American by nature, by inheritance.

The change was effected because someone in that later Congress looked at the wording and wondered what the issue of presidential eligibility was doing in a naturalization act. It didn't make sense from a logical standpoint.

But it wasn't placed in the earlier act because of logic but instead because the natural rights of foreign-born Americans needed protecting.

Proof of that is your very attitude which seeks to disenfranchise them from their birthright.
Their reasonable attempt at protection was definitely called for, although its placement left something to be desired.

MichaelN said...

Stranger said....

"ALL CITIZENS ARE NATURAL CITIZENS, whether natural citizen-born, or foreign-alien-born, or natural-ized."

Reply:

Not in the US, in the context of POTUS eligibility.

MichaelN said...

I asked Slartybartfast (Kev)the following, and he threw his hands up and run away, like shining a light on a cockroach, see how they run and hide.

Any other obamitized fools up to it?

Here....

Kev, you are evading answering a few questions, one in particluar, i.e. where in English common law was it ever held that native-birth alone sufficed to make a subject- born?

And whilst you are at it, you might like to show where in English common law it was held that the term "natural born" actually was with reference to solely native-born.

Calvin's case....

"And it is to be observed, that it is nec coelum, nec solum,54 neither the climate nor the soyl, but ligeantia and obedientia that make the subject born:

....The place is observable, but so as many times ligeance or obedience without any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions may make a subject born, but any place within the king’s dominions without obedience can never produce a natural subject.

....Whatsoever is due by the law or constitution of man, may be altered: But natural ligeance or obedience of the subject to the Sovereign cannot be altered; ergo natural ligeance or obedience to the Sovereign is not due by the law or constitution of man. Again, whatsoever is due by the Law of Nature, cannot be altered: But ligeance and obedience of the subject to the Sovereign is due by the law of Nature; ergo it cannot be altered. It hath been proved before, that ligeance or obedience of the inferior to the superior, of the subject to the Sovereign, was due by the Law of Nature many thousand years before any Law of man was made: Which ligeance or obedience (being the onely mark to distinguish a subject from an alien) could not be altered; therefore it remaineth still due by the Law of Nature.

....That ligeance, or obedience of the subject to the Sovereign, is due by the Law of nature:"

Going all quiet on this point are we Kev?

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