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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Robert said...

WKA lists several qualifications which the court felt justified declaring WKA a "citizen of the United States"

1. child born in the United States,
2. of parent of Chinese descent,
3. who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China,
4. but have a permanent domicil and residence in the United States,
5. and are there carrying on business,
6. and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China,

becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States.

For the reasons above stated,
[Note that the court is recognizing all of the criteria as being important to their decision.]

[Cont.]
this court is of opinion that the question must be answered in the affirmative.

So, how many of these criteria are met by Mr. Obama?

1. Well, we don't know for sure where Mr. Obama was born. He's claimed birth in Kenya and in Hawaii. However, no documentation has ever been presented that proves either. Forgeries don't count.
2. Mr. Obama has never claimed and doesn't appear to be of Chinese descent.
3. His parents were not subject of the Chinese Emperor, either.
4. His parents were not permanently domiciled here.
5. His parents were not carrying on a business here.
6. His parents were not employed by the Emperor of China in any capacity.

On even a superficial reading it appears that the court clearly set to narrowly define its decision to the resident Chinese population who were engaged in commerce by the owning of a business. If not, they certainly had the vocabulary skills to include any foreign nationality.

So, WKA does not apply to Mr. Obama at all.

Slartibartfast said...

A member of the Fogbow answered all of Mario's questions so I thought I would let Mario know that the matter has been put to rest.

1. How many Americans with U.S. passports went there in 1981?

193

2. What function (job category) did these Americans have before entering the country?

Writer (8), retired (27), student (19), journalist (6), photojournalist (3), management consultant (5), anthropologist (1), engineer (12), diplomat (23), geologist (3), educator (8), religious missionary (22), medical doctor (7), human rights activist (3), other (46)

3. What was the purpose of their trip there?

Tourism (53), business (129), just passing through (11)

4. How long did they stay there?

Stays ranged from 45 minutes to over 3 months (on renewed visas)

5. How many Americans were refused visas to enter the country?

26

6. Why were they refused those visas?

Failed to pay the fee (4), deemed a security risk/on watchlist (3), failed to provide required documentation (e.g., return air ticket) (9), some other error with the application (5), clerical error (5)

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

A member of the Fogbow answered all of Mario's questions so I thought I would let Mario know that the matter has been put to rest.

1. How many Americans with U.S. passports went there in 1981?

193

2. What function (job category) did these Americans have before entering the country?

Writer (8), retired (27), student (19), journalist (6), photojournalist (3), management consultant (5), anthropologist (1), engineer (12), diplomat (23), geologist (3), educator (8), religious missionary (22), medical doctor (7), human rights activist (3), other (46)

3. What was the purpose of their trip there?

Tourism (53), business (129), just passing through (11)

4. How long did they stay there?

Stays ranged from 45 minutes to over 3 months (on renewed visas)

5. How many Americans were refused visas to enter the country?

26

6. Why were they refused those visas?

Failed to pay the fee (4), deemed a security risk/on watchlist (3), failed to provide required documentation (e.g., return air ticket) (9), some other error with the application (5), clerical error (5)

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

A member of the Fogbow answered all of Mario's questions so I thought I would let Mario know that the matter has been put to rest.

1. How many Americans with U.S. passports went there in 1981?

193

2. What function (job category) did these Americans have before entering the country?

Writer (8), retired (27), student (19), journalist (6), photojournalist (3), management consultant (5), anthropologist (1), engineer (12), diplomat (23), geologist (3), educator (8), religious missionary (22), medical doctor (7), human rights activist (3), other (46)

3. What was the purpose of their trip there?

Tourism (53), business (129), just passing through (11)

4. How long did they stay there?

Stays ranged from 45 minutes to over 3 months (on renewed visas)

5. How many Americans were refused visas to enter the country?

26

6. Why were they refused those visas?

Failed to pay the fee (4), deemed a security risk/on watchlist (3), failed to provide required documentation (e.g., return air ticket) (9), some other error with the application (5), clerical error (5)

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

cont...

7. What passport did Obama use to travel into Pakistan? I have repeatedly asked Dr. Conspiracy and his Obot followers to provide this information. To date they have produced nothing. This information is very important since the underlying question regarding Obama’s constitutional eligibility for the office of President is the nature of his citizenship and what citizenships he claimed over the years.

His US passport

8. How did the young Obama finance his trip to Indonesia, India, and Pakistan?

He saved money in a bank. I know that may be an alien concept to birthers, since the only way they know to get money is to beg donations.

9. Why has Obama since mentioning his Pakistani trip just once never spoken about it again even though there have been so many public inquiries about it?

He has mentioned it many, many times. You just weren't in the room at the time.
A whiny diatribe on the internet is not a "public inquiry."



10. Why did the Obama campaign not respond to an invitation to comment on some of the speculation surrounding the visit to Pakistan or to provide further details about the trip?

Because they had more important things to do. Like trim their toenails.

11. Was Obama one of the many who–in the words of veteran security analyst, Bahukutumbi Raman, a former Indian counterterrorism chief–visited Pakistan to feel the greatness of the Afghani jihad against communism and their fascination for Abdullah Azzam?

No.

12. For how long did Obama stay in Pakistan? This would shed much light on how he could afford to be there and for what purpose.

About a month in total, if I recall correctly, all of it with the extremely wealthy capitalist family of one of his school friends, and the extremely wealthy capitalist families of his friend's friends.

If you were a close personal friend of the Bush's, I wouldn't be bloviating on the internet about how you could "afford" to visit Crawford, Texas.


13. With whom did Obama visit while he was in Pakistan? If he visited politicians while there, how was he able to make such political connections?

His friends and their friends (see above). If he met politicans (which is possible, his friends were very wealthy and connected), it was through his wealthy, connected friends. What part of this is a mystery?

14. Why did Obama not mention his Pakistani trip and the in-depth religious knowledge that he gained from it in his autobiographies?

"Dreams" was about his race journey as a native-born Hawaiian, so Pakistan wasn't relevant. "Audacity" was subtitled "Thoughts on Reclaiming the American Dream" -- it was not an autobiography in any sense.

What "in-depth religious knowledge"? The friends he stayed and traveled with while in Pakistan were wealthy secular capitalists. His experiences would not have focused much on religion, except in the normal way as a tourist.



Now, I'm sure Mario will object that there isn't proof of some of these answers, but the fact is that all of these answers are completely plausible and highly probable. At this point, the burden of proof is on Mario (where it always belonged) to show evidence that one or more of these answers are wrong or that any of the given answers are probable cause for suspicion of something untoward. Since we all know he cannot do that, the matter should be closed for any reasonable person. In other words, Mario will shortly be proclaiming his latest "Apuzzo".

Anonymous said...

Slarti wrote: -the State Department recognized President Obama as a citizen (a FOIA request for information on Obama Sr. indicated that he had a US citizen son),... that President Obama was entitled to a US passport."

Your ignorance and presumption know no bounds. The information you cite was a hand-written comment by a field agent in Hawaii who merely repeated what he assumed to be true based on assumed birth in Hawaii. (unproven by anything or anyone) What that assumption was based on no one knows. But his impression translates to nothing.

To acquire a U.S. passport requires submission of a State birth certificate, which he lacked. The passport dept did not call the old field agent to ask him what his impression was, because it was irrelevant.

Nothing but a birth certificate (or perhaps something equivalent if there is such a thing) would serve to get a passport.

"Have you ever looked for verification of a single fact once you realized how to use it to smear President Obama?"

How can facts "smear" a criminal? Are defendants in court being "smeared"? And No, I'm too remote from civilization to even think along that line. My research is purely historical and philosophical.
But after the travesty of the Selective Service counterfeit, it's very doubtful that instead of releasing any fake document, they would simply claim that it is missing, or was legitimately destroyed (a lie), or they'd get a better counterfeiter and make the job perfect. Most likely they'd simply say that no such request was ever presented,-thus no record.

"it is clear from the argument from the State of California in the lower court... (that if Mr. Wong was a citizen, he would be eligible for the presidency),

When were you born, yesterday? Nothing is made clear simply because some unaware person makes an unsubstantiatable erroneous claim.
All that is "clear", fool, is that he thought his impression was accurate and thus stated it, ignorantly. Impressions and opinions do not translate to TRUTH.

"- there is absolutely no basis in Wong Kim Ark to show that Mr. Wong was found not to be a natural born citizen and substantial evidence to the contrary."

Wow! It's also true that he was NOT found to not be a horse's ass, unlike someone I know.

Please, oh wise one, point out in the Wong case where the court was called on to rule on whether or not Wong was a natural born citizen???

And here I ignorantly thought they were considering whether or not he was even a citizen at all. Thanks! for setting back on the right track, lame-brain.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

Your last comment to Slartibartfast is right on the money.

Immigration does not do anything without a valid and verifiable birth certificate. I went through all of Barack Obama Sr. (father)'s immigration file. There is therein not a shred of evidence of any birth certificate for Barack Obama Jr. (our de facto president) ever been filed with immigration. There is no copy of any birth certificate, no indication that there ever was one, or even the slightest comment referring to one. That is unbelievable given that Obama Sr. wanted to extend his student visa and having a child born in the U.S. would have been a good basis to extend it. He would have had to present a valid birth certificate to prove the birth of that son. In the immigration file there are also documents in which Obama Sr. does not even acknowledge having a son with Ann Dunham.

So, Slartibartfast is just a talker and a bad one at that. He has no evidence for anything he says. He does not even know the difference between a subset and a proper subset. That is shocking given that he has a Ph.D. in mathematics.

ajtelles said...

"write on" h2ooflife...

h2o, your response On June 15, 2014 at 7:53 PM to "Slarti" aka S..., is so pertinent, according to the historical record, e.g.,
_Fast and Furious
_IRS vs. ONLY conservative T.E.A. people
_Benghazi, Libya (the cell phones used by the islamists are evidence)
_deserter Bowe Robert Bergdahl
_etc., and, if precedent is recital, more to come in the reign of the big Obirther-in-Chief.

Bergdahl, born March 28, 1986, is a United States Army soldier who was held captive by the Taliban-aligned Haqqani network in Afghanistan for 5 years until he was traded by Supreme Leader BHObama for 5 Islamic true-believer jihadic murderers. See the Wikipedia info page [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowe_Bergdahl ]

S... asked you -

>> Have you ever looked for verification of a single fact
>> once you realized how to use it to smear President Obama?


h2o, you said -

>> How can facts "smear" a criminal?
>> Are defendants in court being "smeared"?


Right on, and write on.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

h2o, if only you were as succinct and grounded, yes, "grounded" is deliberate, about the original intent and the original genesis meaning in Jay underlining the word "born" in natural born Citizen" with the common understanding in 1700s America that ONLY the U.S. "grounded" citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. "grounded" citizenship of the wife, AND the U.S. "grounded" citizenship of BOTH parents determined the U.S. "grounded" citizenship of the child.

BOTH parents.

S... NEVER tries to rebut and refute John Jay's, not mine, John Jay's original intent and original genesis understanding that ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

Oh well, if S..., Dr. Conspiracy and the Obama birth narrative Obama birthers sleep well at night with their theory, their myth of ONLY "one-citizen-parent" as sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS, well, let's wish them a nice Sominex sleep... sleep... sleep.

"WE the Posterity" of "WE the People" are awake.

BOTH parents—"grounded" ONLY on U.S. soil.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

a request—reality vs. The "myth"...

Mario, I'm cool with staying on this 2400+ comment thread, and I'm cool with starting a new thread based on your June 15, 2014 at 10:55 PM pertinent comment to h2o, aka "Mr. Nash," about BHObamas lineage, heritage, nationality, nativity -

>> "I went through all of Barack Obama Sr. (father)'s immigration file.
>> There is therein not a shred of evidence
>> of any birth certificate for Barack Obama Jr.
>> (our de facto president)
>> ever been filed with immigration.

>> There is no copy of any birth certificate,
>> no indication that there ever was one,
>> or even the slightest comment referring to one.

>> That is unbelievable given that Obama Sr.
>> wanted to extend his student visa
>> and having a child born in the U.S.
>> would have been a good basis to extend it.

>> He would have had to present a valid birth certificate
>> to prove the birth of that son.

>> In the immigration file
>> there are also documents in which Obama Sr.
>> does not even acknowledge
>> having a son
>> with Ann Dunham."

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Mario, maintaing the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth, of the lineage, heritage, nationality, and nativity of BHObama is soooooooooo important to the Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers that they will probably want to discuss ONLY the 1700s original intent and the 1700s original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" as understood by original birther John Jay and original birther George Washington in substantial depth instead of current Obama history.

Obama Sr. did "... not even acknowledge having a son with Ann Dunham" is relevant to the myth of the "one-citizen-parent" is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

[Unknown/Not Linda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson] and Slartibartfast,

I of II

All those who have been studying this subject know that all natural born citizens are citizens, but not all citizens are natural born citizens and that therefore the sets natural born citizens and citizens are not equal. Yet both Dr. Conspiracy and I had to educate Ph.D. Mathematician Slartibartfast that while natural born citizens is a subset of citizens, because the two sets are not equal, natural born citizens is correctly called a proper subset, and that when asked what to call natural born citizens, a subset or a proper subset, and to pick only one of these two set names which best describes the set, the proper mathematical answer is proper subset because it is the only choice which denotes that the two sets are not equal.

Now you and Slartibartfast want a very brief lesson on how our nation has defined our born citizens and natural born citizens, which historical and legal development demonstrates that not all of today’s born citizens are natural born citizens. As you know, I maintain that the natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens and that additionally, natural born citizens is also a proper subset of born citizens. Both you and Slartibartast concede the former, but deny the latter. On the latter you state: “You'd need a case in U.S. law where someone was found not to be a natural-born citizen and to be a citizen from birth.”

First, you parameter is erroneous. I can show that a child born under given circumstances was under U.S. law an alien at one time and later a born citizen under some law other than the law which defines a natural born citizen. Being an alien at one time demonstrates that that child was not and could not be a natural born citizen. And given that the child then becames a born citizen under a law which does not define a natural born citizen, that child is not and cannot be a natural born citizen. So, that child is a born citizen but not a natural born citizen.

Second, as to Congressional expressions, in the Naturalization Act of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien children as aliens. Furthermore, under the Naturalization Act of 1790 and 1795, children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were citizens of the United States at birth. Then under the 1802 Act, children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen or alien parents were aliens. The 1855 Act made children born to U.S. citizen parents once again citizens of the United States at birth which is what they are today.

Third, as to decision from our U.S. Supreme Court, here is a list of cases issued before U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) which did not find or would not have found a child born in the United States to alien parents a citizen of the United States, let alone a natural born citizen:

James McClure citizenship case of 1811. The James Madison Administration confirmed that, contrary to what Lynch v. Clarke (1844) said, there was no such thing as the common law of the states on state citizenship which had become national common law on national citizenship; and that under the Naturalization Act of 1802, a child born in the United States to alien parents was an alien.

The Venus (1814);

Inglis v. Trustees of Sailor’s Snug Harbor (1830);

Shanks v. Dupont (1830);

Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857);

The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873); and

Minor v. Happersett (1875).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Your position that those otherwise alien-born children then, by some unknown process, become natural born citizens under Wong Kim Ark, which is a case about the Fourteenth Amendment that both Minor v. Happersett (1875) and Wong Kim Ark said did not define a natural born citizen, is absurd.
So, there was a time in our history, from our Founding to 1898, when Wong Kim Ark was decided, that children born in the United States to alien parents were aliens and therefore surely not natural born citizens. They became citizens of the United States at birth 111 years later under U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark’s interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment which is what they are today. But neither the Fourteenth Amendment nor Wong Kim Ark made them natural born citizens. We also would not reasonably expect to determine what the Framers understood a natural born citizen to mean in 1787 from the Supreme Court’s interpretation in Wong Kim Ark of the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment which was ratified in 1868 or 81 years after the Framers wrote the Constitution. So, these post Wong Kim Ark born citizens, before Wong was decided were aliens, and after Wong was decided became born citizens, but not natural born citizens. Under Acts of Congress which apply to children born out of the United States, we had children who were considered as natural born citizens, then citizens of the United States at birth, then aliens, and then back to citizens of the United States at birth. Surely, persons whose citizenship status changes as Congress may wish cannot be and are not natural born citizens.

This legislative and U.S. Supreme Court activity demonstrates that neither pre- nor post-Wong Kim Ark born citizens are natural born citizens. Pre-Wong, those born in the United States to alien parents were not even citizens, and between 1802 and 1855, those born out of the United States to U.S. citizen or alien parents were aliens as well. Still, Wong Kim Ark did not make those children born in the United States to alien parents natural born citizens. Rather, it only made them citizens of the United States at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Additionally, since the Naturalization Act of 1790 which was repealed in 1795, no act of Congress has made (not to suggest that it could) a citizen of the United States at birth a natural born citizen. It therefore follows that today natural born citizens is a proper subset of not only citizens, but also of born citizens.

This means that anyone claiming to be a born citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress still needs to satisfy the American common law definition of a natural born citizen before he or she may be determined to be also a natural born citizen. According to Minor, that definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

So, after this brief explanation, you both should still not be having any difficulty understanding that natural born citizens is a proper subset of born citizens.

Unknown said...

My filipina wifes actual 1970 BC is in us embassy in manila, no forgerys or copys are allowed in order to get a visa. I do not think the kenyan is barrys father either but maybe frtfest can show us some legit wedding pics of the happy couple or a legit marriage license. I agree with joel gilbert that evil barry is child of frank marshall davis and stanley ann dunham and he was probably a hawaiian homebirth that was hushed up for different reasons. Satan Junior could very well be a NBC. Being raised in indonesia and hanging around FMD made him love muslims and hate US imo. I do not know why he became a lying, murderous scumbag with no conscience but maybe he was naturally born that way

Unknown said...

As a actual US NBC and as someone who would like to see my native country prosper i would like to see the power of the Presidential branch greatly reduced after the fiasco and outright criminality of last 5.5 years. The bushes and clintons were shady as well.

Unknown said...

Frtfest, can we see a legit copy of barrys 1981 US passport?

ajtelles said...

What does that mean...

Mario, what is a set, a subset, a proper subset to a "normal person" who is not a mathematician?

Well, to answer my own question, "what does THAT mean," in normal people language, this makes "normal people" sense, and it does not matter if it does not adhere to a mathematicians or merely an aficionado's terminology.

_Set = citizen

_Subset = citizen born to 2 U.S. citizen parents (a 1700s reality)
_Subset = citizen born to 1 U.S. citizen parent (a 2000s myth)
_Subset = citizen born to 0 U.S. citizen parents (a silly SCOTUS myth until they WAKE UP!!!)

_Subset = citizen naturalized by oath (0 U.S. citizen parents)
_Subset = citizen naturalized by birth (1 U.S. citizen parent)
_Subset = citizen by birth (2 U.S. citizen parents)

_Proper Subset = citizen by birth to 2 U.S. citizen parents = "natural born Citizen" is proper subset of the "citizen" set.

_Set = citizen
_Subset = citizen by naturalization birth or by natural birth to 1 citizen parent
_Subset = citizen by natural birth to 2 citizen parents
_Proper Subset = citizen by natural birth to only 2 citizen parents

Now, that may be inaccurate in mathematical terms and in set theory terms, but it seems to work to answer the normal person question, "what does THAT mean" and does it define the 2000s "one-citizen-parent" myth or the 1700s "two-citizen-parent" reality.

This set theory gobbledygook is why I stay with the original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" as meaning ONLY birth on U.S. soil to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents as informed by the common 1700s understanding that ONLY the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

BOTH parents.

Now, THAT is NOT confusing, AND it is also NOT refutable.

BOTH parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...


Mario said: "So, there was a time in our history, from our Founding to 1898, when Wong Kim Ark was decided, that children born in the United States to alien parents were aliens and therefore surely not natural born citizens."

Here is the power of a counterexample: Jessica Lynch.

Your entire argument is done. Congratulations on your latest Apuzzo!

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast,

That Lynch argument would work if The State of New York hadn't passed a law saying that the children of transient aliens were not citizens.
Lynch's parents were transient aliens, so that law effectively overturned Lynch.

Nope, that doesn't do it.

ajtelles said...

a "kevin" again...

Mario, on June 16, 2014 at 3:53 AM, Slartibartfast, aka S..., aka Kevin, did another Kevin.

What is a "Kevin?"

When someone, let's say S..., makes a silly ad hominem reference instead of sticking to reason.

An example of a "Kevin" is all of that "set theory gobbledygook" that I wrote earlier on June 16, 2014 at 2:03 AM.

I call what I wrote myself about set theory as "gobbledygook" because that is what it is when the purpose is not clear because EVERY word needs to be defined for the conclusion to be reasonable.

That is why I wrote the reasonable conclusion about the 1700s citizenship understanding; it is a statement with which we can reason.

>> "This set theory gobbledygook is why
>> I stay with the original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen"
>> as meaning ONLY birth on U.S. soil
>> to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents
>> as informed by the common 1700s understanding
>> that ONLY the citizenship of the husband
>> determined the citizenship of the wife,
>> AND
>> the citizenship of BOTH parents
>> determined the citizenship of the child.

>> BOTH parents.

>> Now, THAT is NOT confusing,
>> AND it is also NOT refutable.

>> BOTH parents.

But, of course S..., Dr. Conspiracy and Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers NEVER attempt to rebut and refute the 1700's original understanding of the citizenship "rule of unity," the 1700s common understanding "rule" that Mario has written about before.

On April 27, 2014 at 1:28 AM, he mentioned "the rule of unity of the citizenship of the husband and wife," a phrase that contains the essence of what I have been articulating, TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

>> “... there was no such thing as husbands and wives with different citizenships.
>> “Husband and wives were either both U.S. citizens or both aliens.”


This phrase is 1700's reasonable, and still meaningful in the 2000s, even AFTER the 1922 Cable Act.

BOTH parents are “either … or” BEFORE the child was called a U.S. citizen or an alien citizen. Either way, in the “rule of unity”, TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

The U.S. citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. citizenship of the wife, AND the U.S. citizenship of BOTH parents determined the U.S. citizenship of the "natural born Citizen" child.

S..., Dr. Conspiracy and Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers believe the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth, that the "one-citizen-parent" was John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning when he underlined "born" in "natural born Citizen" in 1787.

S..., Dr. Conspiracy and Obama-birthers, rebut and refute BOTH U.S. citizen parents. Stop with the silly "liar" references.

BOTH parents.

S..., here's your "dittos" words back at you -

>> "Your entire argument is done. ..." 'cause there's no reasonable substance, there's no reason.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast and [Unknow/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson],

I have a question: do you maintain that children born in the United States to royal alien parents who are neither “foreign diplomats” nor military invaders are “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment? Please state yes or no and provide the reasoning for your answer.

Anonymous said...

Here's my response to Slarti, as found in my exposition titled: The Startling Truth about the Wong Opinion

William St. George wrote:
What if I had asked a professor of law at say the University of Nebraska, What does this “natural born” mean? Surely there is a very old law professor still living who was teaching law in the 1950′s.

Sloppybartfast replied:
—look at text books which were in use before 2008. While Obots have found dozens of texts that make it clear that anyone born under US jurisdiction... is a natural born citizen, the birthers have discovered exactly zero text books in which someone... might have learned that natural born citizenship requires citizen parents.
It is clear that this “bit of ignorance and confusion” really did start about 6 years ago—right about the time it was becoming clear that Barack Obama was going to be elected to the presidency— and is confined to a few malcontents on the fringe known as “birthers”.

Dear Sloppy; The term “under US jurisdiction” only has one meaning and it is determined by the word “under”.
It is not the word “within”. They are NOT synonymous and come from two completely different nationality systems, although it presently applies (since 1898) to both.
The word “under” originally related solely to children of citizens, as in “under the full authority or legal jurisdiction of the national government”, -while “within” relates to children born within U.S. borders of certain immigrant parents (in addition now with “under”).
The citizenship of the former is by descent; the latter is by law.

The jus soli common law citizenship granted to native-born children of aliens, to be constitutionally legitimate, must meet both of the 14th Amendment’s two criteria; -being born within the physical territory or jurisdiction of the U.S. along with being born “under” the full legal authority or jurisdiction of the government.
["jurisdiction" has two completely different uses; one relating to territory and the other to authority.]

That is a very basic fact that has been reiterated over and over throughout British legal opinion and commentary history; -said person must be born “within and under the dominion of the Crown”.
Neither one alone was sufficient because without the first, the second was impossible except for children of ambassadors.

One could be born within the physical dominion but not under the legal dominion by being born of a foreign invader in possession of royal territory or born of a foreign ambassador.

In America, in a similar fashion, one could be born of Native Americans, or cross-border marauders whose women traveled with them, or Gypsies, vagabonds, or indentured servants and slaves. Not to mention foreign ambassadors, guests, tourists, and students like BHO Sr.

Such persons were not born being citizens of any State and thus could not be citizens of the nation since being an American was the result of being a State citizen unless born on federal property.

Anonymous said...

pt. 2
Sloppy’s problem, like that of all history book writers and members of the legal establishment, is that they all take as Holy Writ that bastardized determination of the Attorney General back in 1898.
His policy has been in place unquestioned and unchallenged ever since, -as an ossified institutional error perpetuated from generation to generation.

It, like Obama’s eligibility, is like radioactive Plutonium that no one will dare touch.

“this “bit of ignorance and confusion” really did start about 6 years ago”
The ignorance is what previously existed and the confusion is all due to the dupes of consensus thinking like yourself.

And why did it start then? Because prior to then, at no time in American history has the acknowledged son of a non-immigrant foreign guest dared to think that he could run for President and then actually do so, and even worse, win.

Are you an ignoramus too ignorant to know that no President before Obama was known to have been alien-born? Of course you aren’t. But what you are is a deceitful, and sinister, deliberate spinner of false “facts” and distorted explanations.

“How could any man teach law for thirty or forty years and not know the Constitution quite well, ...?”
Slarti replied:

"How about a woman who was appointed by Ronald Reagan and served for 25 years on the Supreme Court? Do you think that such a person would know the Constitution quite well?"

I guess the clear and unambiguous statement by Sandra Day O’Connor that President Obama is natural born due to his birth in Hawai’i doesn’t count because she doesn’t give the answer you want.

~there are plenty of sources with credible and relevant expertise that unequivocally say that President Obama is eligible,...

Dear Slarti; Can you show any establishment lawyer / judge who is NOT brainwashed by the establishment viewpoint that has reigned in the stupid U.S. government since 1898? Where are they?

You ask us to look at examples of respectable legal careerists who agree with you. Why stop there? The question is; -which ones don’t agree with you? Any at all?
Or are they all dupes just like you, as pathetic consensus-opinion, group-think sycophants?

Throughout history, at times everyone was wrong about some universal belief. Even Einstein on the nature and size of the Universe. He was only off by about a trillion percent or so. So why do you pontificate about establishment opinion as if it is being dispense from Mt. Sinai?

I already know the answer. People like you value security and maximum government assistance over individual Liberty and constitutional rights.

To achieve that maximum level of security from government requires that government have the maximum amount of power possible, which must be taken, a bit at a time, from The People and The States until Leviathan is all powerful and everyone is dependent or subservient to it.

You are just such a statist at heart or else you would not be full-time involved in defending the greatest violator of the Constitution is American history. Not to mention his numerous criminal and impeachable acts.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/the-startling-truth-about-the-wong-opinion/

Anonymous said...

dickhead wrote: "I agree that evil barry is child of frank marshall davis... and he was probably a hawaiian homebirth that was hushed up for different reasons. Satan Junior could very well be a NBC."

I've thought that through and it doesn't pan out. FMD was just the first for Ann. Obama was the second, and she wouldn't have named the child for him were he not the only one whose child he could be. One doesn't name their child with another man's name, ever.

"I do not know why he became a lying, murderous scumbag with no conscience but maybe he was naturally born that way"

No, he learned it from his mother. I've read a witness state that his mother once told a well-detailed story at dinner, all about someone in a bad accident, to which her mother then replied: "That never happened."
~single-child, over-active imagination given to story-telling and exaggeration.

As for all the political lying; that's just pure Marxist political tactics. Saul Alinsky would be proud.

Anonymous said...

From today's exposition:

One Supreme Court case changed the nationality landscape in the United States far more than any other before it or since. And how did it do that? It didn't.

Idiots did, -by totally misconstruing what its holding was. It is widely, and almost universally (and yet falsely) assumed to mean things that it clearly does not mean nor intended to mean as seen in its very own language.

You can hardly find a more broadly distorted and asininely re-interpreted holding of the court in American history. And that was the result not of what the court wrote but what the Attorney General at the time decided that it meant, and the lower courts that eventually ruled based not on the high court's opinion but on his.

Imagine if you will that the Chairman of the Board of a huge company decided that from then on it would be company policy to no longer restrict employment to college graduates but would include top quality High School graduates as well. But then the CEO dictates that what the Chairman has decided is that anyone who has ever gone to school is eligible to be hired. That is what happened in America in regard to the citizenship policy of the nation thanks to that Attorney General.

I first read it a few years ago as a neophyte in the citizenship wars and could hardly believe what I was reading. It was so incredibly specific to just the facts of Wong's circumstance that I had to doubt by own rationality to try to come to terms with the fact that no one, literally no one at all that I had read had written a word as to what was so starkly obvious, namely; that it was not written in a general manner but in a specific one.

Yet until this day, no writing I had come across acknowledged that fact. I subconsciously wondered if there was something "wrong" with my "legal" comprehension of what was plainly written.

Well, it appears that what I was reading was the same thing that everyone else was reading and seemingly ignoring, -until Robert finally stated the ridiculously obvious truth, which the "deafening silence" about it had made to seem like it didn't even exist. Now I happily give you the unvarnished unmistakeable truth about the Wong opinion:

Robert wrote: WKA lists several qualifications which the court felt justified declaring WKA a "citizen of the United States":

1. child born in the United States,
2. of parent of Chinese descent,
3. who, at the time of his birth, are subjects of the Emperor of China,
4. but have a permanent domicile and residence in the United States,
5. and are there carrying on business,
6. and are not employed in any diplomatic or official capacity under the Emperor of China,

becomes at the time of his birth a citizen of the United States.

[Note that the court is recognizing all of the criteria as being important to their decision.]
cont...

Anonymous said...

continuing...

"On even a superficial reading it appears that the court clearly set to narrowly define its decision to the resident Chinese population who were engaged in commerce by the owning of a business. If not, they certainly had the vocabulary skills to include any foreign nationality.

So, WKA does not apply to Mr. Obama at all.
~ ~ ~
Thank you, Robert, for a perfect example of something that can be right in front of your face and yet no one acknowledges it. It is absolutely amazing that that can be so, -and yet it is.

High intelligence is no preventative at all. Rationality doesn't make a difference either. The explanation must be either strong bias or strong indoctrination, -or strong fear of being the nail that sticks up and gets hammered down.

One can rightfully suspect that their opinion might have been other than 6-2 if his parents had not been established, society-connected business owners and not mere illiterate or semi-literate day laborers without any property or business.

In that case, they may have ruled that in their opinion he was not a U.S. citizen. No one can assert nor prove otherwise based on what their holding says.
Due to the innate flaws in the nationality law system, -Obama fell through the cracks of American law since his circumstance is not covered by it.

He would only have been a U.S. citizen if he'd been born abroad a few months later when his mother would be old enough to meet the minimum U.S. residency requirement to pass her own nationality to her child.
But being born in the U.S. means that nationality is not passed from the mother (American or foreign) but is due to meeting the conditions of the 14th Amendment, -which didn't apply to a father and son such as Obama Sr. and Jr. since they were not subject to the full political jurisdiction of the United States Government as it requires.

Bottom line: Obama was not born as a United States citizen by any rule, statute, court opinion, or constitutional amendment.

But he was deemed to be a citizen nevertheless due to a policy put in place by the Attorney General at the time of the Wong opinion, -who misinterpreted it, or, more likely, reinterpreted it, -playing god, -or Congress, or the American people, -as if he was authorized to make a fundamental change in the nationality law of the nation all on his own. Thank you John Griggs, for helping to ruin our country.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/the-startling-truth-about-the-wong-opinion/

Anonymous said...

Art, when will you get it through your head that the obamunist don't require that either parent be an American?

For them it isn't a contest between one or two because ZERO is sufficient!

They claim that all that's required is citizenship at birth.

They claim that citizenship at birth = natural born citizenship according to the ancient common law which labeled all native-born subjects as natural-born subjects.

But it also labeled naturalized subjects the same way. EVERYONE was a natural-born subject!

In other words, the term became meaningless, and that's why it was abandoned. They reached a point in their vastly expanded empire during which they needed specificity about nationality and rights. The term nbs provided none, so it was "goodbye to you".

As for citizenship by descent; it was NOT passed from father & mother to their child. It was passed solely from father to child, or, if dead, the mother alone.
Re-read Jefferson's citizenship act of 1779. It is never both. It's one or the other.

It was based on the bibical and patriarchal headship of the husband and father. All of the family had his nationality and no other.
Try to absorb that fact. Then you'll be on the right track about that matter.

But you are correct within Natural Law alone. Both parents pass their same-species genes to their off-spring, reproducing themselves, just as natural citizens do.
The problem it seems, is that no one but I, acknowledge the literalness of the word "natural" in natural citizen, although it seems you might get it also.

But it can't be both a term of art and a literal usage. If it's one then it's not the other. You have to choose sides.

Anonymous said...

Mario said: "So, there was a time in our history, from our Founding to 1898, when Wong Kim Ark was decided, that children born in the United States to alien parents were aliens and therefore surely not natural born citizens."

Question: is anyone familiar with the origin of the Wong case, and the rational used in the District court to argue that he was an alien?
Was it related to his race or merely to his parents' alien status? The answer must be very significant, but I've never heard it raised as an issue in the high court opinion.

If it was due to his parents status, then that would show that the policy of the federal government at that time, and possibly from day one, was that aliens produce alien children and jus soli common law State citizenship was not recognized as the official government position on nationality, but rather, the opposite.

Or was it basically about him being Chinese. Or, perhaps no hint was given as to the particular basis of the U.S. opposition to his lawsuit.

Anonymous said...

Mario, your question about children of royal alien parents asks in context of the 14th Amendment. I'm wondering if your cognizant in that question that the policy of the U.S. Dept. of Justice does not follow the 14th Amendment. It only follows precedence.
The precedence is a travesty and extreme divergence from the amendment, as Robert so clearly pointed out.

So what you are asking is not clear at all unless you mean it literally as under the 14th Amendment itself, and not the century-old policy.
They might not discern the difference but that sure doesn't make it not all too real.

Under current policy, according to the Code, ALL native-born persons are citizens except children of Ambassadors, -that includes all other embassy employees, even consular officers!
It's like U.S. citizenship is a free gift bag for everyone who shows up for our American event.

"Thanks for coming folks, -so glad that you were born here, and here's your very own free United States citizenship just to show our appreciation! Citizenship for everyone!!!"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

The Framers sought to keep foreign and monarchical influence out of the Office of President and Commander in Chief. How would they accomplish that national security policy if a child could be born in the United States to one alien parent and be accepted as a natural born citizen and therefore eligible to be President?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

My comment at June 16, 2014 at 12:26 PM, should read:

Second, as to Congressional expressions, in the Naturalization Act of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as aliens.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

Jessica Lynch was declared a (natural born) citizen during the period which Mario indicated that native born children of alien parents were ALWAYS considered aliens. Jessica Lynch was not considered an alien. What happened later was irrelevant---not to mention that the restriction on the children of transient aliens wouldn't effect children of non-transient alien parents (or foreign student/US citizen parents such as President Obama's). Any way you look at it, it still proves Mario's statement incorrect.

ajtelles said...

BOTH parents...

h2ooflife, aka h20, On June 16, 2014 at 1:43 PM, you got close to the reason for focusing on the 1700s common understanding about the unity of citizenship.

H2o, you wrote -

>> "As for citizenship by descent;
>> it was NOT passed
>> from father & mother
>> to their child.
>> It was passed solely
>> from father to child,
>> or, if dead,
>> the mother alone.

>> Re-read Jefferson's citizenship act of 1779. It is never both. It's one or the other.


H2o, it is obvious that you are misunderstanding the 1700s understanding of the unity of citizenship.

The clarification that follows is not to simply respond to you, but to also inform others who may be reading this and are not aware of the implications of the 1700s understanding of the unity of citizenship, which was valid until the 1922 Cable Act which opened up citizenship to all women and, in context here, the wife's citizenship was separated from the citizenship of her husband.

In the 1700s, when the male and the female WERE married, the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

In the 1700s, when the male and the female were NOT married, the citizenship of ONLY the father determined the citizenship of the child.

In the 1700s, the citizenship of the unmarried mother did not determine the citizenship of the child.

h2o..., you argue against the 1700s U.S. soil grounded unity of citizenship and are not persuasive, because you can not refute the 1700s common sense understanding that the U.S. grounded citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. grounded citizenship of the wife, AND the singular U.S. grounded citizenship of BOTH parents determined the singular grounded citizenship of the child, AND the singular grounded citizenship that was derived from BOTH parents is the ONLY reason that the U.S. grounded "citizen" was recognized as a U.S. grounded "natural born Citizen."

h2o..., also, you miss the point for the repition of the 1700 historical reality that John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" for a perpetual reason, to "...form a more perfect [stronger and perpetual] Union" for themselves in 1787 America AND for their posterity in every generation, including the 2000s.

So what if the Obama birth narrative Obama-birther obumanists do NOT accept the 1700s unity of citizenship? The 1700s original birthers, the original Founders, Framers and Ratifiers, they DID accept the 1700s reality of the BOTH parents unity of citizenship, and they were NOT implicitly proposing the theory, the myth that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" was sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

BOTH grounded citizen parents.

The truth has no agenda other than to be expressed as long as error is promoted as truth.

The fact that Dr. Conspiracy, aka Kevin, the teacher of S...fast, aka also Kevin, promotes the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS requires a perpetual response that their 2000s theory is historically wrong.

The truth has no agenda other than to be expressed as long as error is promoted as truth.

BOTH parents.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Your New York state case of Lynch v. Clarke (1844) is not a “counterexample” to my position that from July 4, 1776 to U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), our nation introduced and had in effect a new national rule regarding who may be our national citizens (natural born citizens and citizens of the United States), which provided that children born in the United States to alien parents were aliens and therefore could be neither citizens of the United States nor natural born citizens. Providing an example of what a state court decided about who may be its state citizens does not prove my statement regarding national citizenship to be incorrect, for a state law case, while it can define the citizenship of its own state and believe (although erroneously) that it can also define national citizenship, is not controlling on the national question. Once the states ratified the Constitution and Congress entered the field of making citizens of the United States through its Naturalization Act of 1790, the states no longer had any power or right to make citizens of the United States.

Less is that state law case controlling on the question of national citizenship given that, (1) the New York legislature overruled the decision by state statute; (2) the decision was contrary to the word of, among others, Founders David Ramsay, St. George Tucker, James Wilson, and Nathan Dane; (3) the decision was contrary to the word of our early Congress in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, and 1802; (4) the decision was contrary to the word of the James Madison Administration as expressed in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811; (5) the decision was contrary to the word of our U.S. Supreme Court in The Venus (1814), Inglis v. Trustees of Sailor’s Snug Harbor (1830), Shanks v. Dupont (1830); (6) our U.S. Supreme Court in Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857) and The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873), in effect overruled Lynch’s dicta that a child born in New York to alien parents was a citizen of the United States (dicta because it only had to decide whether Julia Lynch was a citizen of the state of New York) and its dicta that such a child was also a natural born citizen and eligible to be President (super dicta because being a citizen of the state of New York in 1819, when Julia Lynch was born in New York, had nothing to do with being a natural born citizen and eligible to be President); and (6) Minor v. Happersett (1875) overruled the Lynch statement that the common law of the states became our national common law on national citizenship, and its holding, rendered before the Fourteenth Amendment was passed, that children born in New York to alien parents were citizens of the United States, and rejected its dicta that such children were natural born citizens and eligible to be president.

Hence, Lynch, acting contrary to the will of the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and People, and our U.S. Supreme Court’s decisions on who are the citizens and the natural born citizens, also usurped the constitutional power of Congress as to who shall be the citizens of the United States. Your Lynch example does not prove me wrong. Do you have any other evidence which you may submit as contradicting me or was Lynch your only hope?

Anonymous said...

Mario, I can't believe how you misconstrued everything about by question.

I want to know if the Justice Dept. sought to have him declared an alien because he was born of aliens or because he was born of Chinese aliens?
The difference is gigantic. The implications of the former are far greater than those of the latter.

I don't have time to research it, and apparently you do not know the answer as to what motivated them. It certainly wasn't presidential eligibility.

And why would anyone assume that considering the law to be that the child of mixed nationalities was a US citizen would also make him a natural born citizen? Only ignorance would promote such a view.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You provided your answers to my questions regarding Obama’s 1981 travel to Pakistan. You ended your answers with this statement:

“Now, I'm sure Mario will object that there isn't proof of some of these answers, but the fact is that all of these answers are completely plausible and highly probable. At this point, the burden of proof is on Mario (where it always belonged) to show evidence that one or more of these answers are wrong or that any of the given answers are probable cause for suspicion of something untoward. Since we all know he cannot do that, the matter should be closed for any reasonable person. In other words, Mario will shortly be proclaiming his latest ‘Apuzzo.’”

=====

Do you think that readers would accept your answers without you providing sources which provided you with your information. The answers to my questions need to be correct answers based on documented proof, not “plausible and highly probable” which is your own invention. You claim that the burden of proof is on me. Then why did you bother to supply your fraudulent answers? The matter is not closed because my questions are questions that any competent journalist should ask and seek to answer with valid sources.

So, you still lose.

Anonymous said...

Mario, it appears unmistakeably that the Obaminators want to never acknowledge the difference between State citizenship and national.

They strive to smooth everything into a simple fine paste of homogenized undefined terms, such as the ambiguous "citizen" (State or Federal?); "jurisdiction" (the same, but also "within" or "under, -referring to "territory" or "authority"?); "subject to" (civil law or political law & policy?); "natural-born subject" (subject-born, alien-born, or naturalized?)

They weave their deceitful web by selectively singling out only the options that suit their agenda, -and presto! Their magic formula of semi-sensical nonsense provides them just the eligibility theory that they need.
Not that it can't be torn to shreds as the fabrication that it is, as you have done on their unappreciative behalf.

ajtelles said...

aaaarrrrrrrgh - Ted Cruz & China...

It' June 16, 2014 and soooooooooo many Republican bloggers are so misinformed.

This is from Townhall.com -

>> http://townhall.com/tipsheet/christinerousselle/2014/06/11/sen-ted-cruz-officially-surrenders-canadian-citizenship-n1850262

Sen. Ted Cruz Officially Renounces Canadian Citizenship
Christine Rousselle | Jun 11, 2014

[...]

>> "Canada and the United States are the only two countries with advanced economies that automatically grant citizenship to every person born on its soil.

>> "Cruz is still eligible to run for president despite the location of his birth as he was born a U.S. citizen.

[...]

>> "This highlights a major issue with jus soli citizenship.
>> Cruz had no interest in being technically Canadian,
>> his parents aren't Canadian,
>> and his parents were not permanent residents of Canada.

>> "Birth tourism" is an industry in countries like China and Turkey
>> where pregnant women can pay a fee to be flown to the United States,
>> give birth to a brand new American citizen baby,
>> and return to their country of origin.
>> As their child is an American citizen,
>> they are now eligible for a host of benefits,
>> such as
>> the public education system
>> and college system.
>> They can also sponsor citizenship for their parents as well.

>> This is absurd.

>> Citizenship isn't something to collect like a baseball card.

>> The U.S. should strongly consider adopting a law like in the UK,
>> which require one parent to be a citizen
>> or "legally settled" in the country
>> to confer citizenship on a child."


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Well, at least Christine Rousselle sees the obvious, the absurdity of alien persons who "plop-and-drop" anchor babies and expect U.S. citizes to provide services at the U.S. taxpayers's expense.

Mario, as I've said a few time before, your online tutorials are still needed 6 years after the OCCUPATION of the oval office by I-I-I-managed-to-OCCUPY-America BHObama.

The idiocy of the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth, the 2000s "transformation of America" shallow-thinker nonsense that is promoted by Dr. Conspiracy and the Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers, the 2000s myth that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS, that 2000s myth is rampant in mainstream BIG Talker and BIG Blogger and BIG Thinker circles.

BIG Talkers and the BIG Bloggers and the BIG Thinkers, wake up to John Jay's 1700s original intent and original genesis reality about the 1700s unity of citizenship, that the U.S. citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. citizenship of the wife, AND the singular U.S. citizenship of BOTH parents determined the singular U.S. citizenship of the child. And AFTER the 1922 Cable act, TWO parents was STILL the Article II requirement.

WAKE UP BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers and BIG Thinkers!!!

ONLY TWO parents can produce ONE U.S. "citizen" who is a U.S. "natural born Citizen" eligible to be POTUS.

It's in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution.

Protect and defend Article II of the Constitution if you BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers and BIG Thinkers are afraid of dealing with birth certificate of the OCCUPIER-in-Chief BHObama.

It takes TWO U.S. citizen parents to produce ONE U.S. "citizen" child who is a U.S. "natural born Citizen" child.

TWO parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Jeez art, you should be able to figure by now that the legacy media will not touch obamas forgerys and minor v happersett with a ten ft pole. Jeff Kuhner is about only one i have heard say anything about fraud in chiefs eligibility and fake IDs

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo Esquire asked me (and Slarti):
"Slartibartfast and [Unknow/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson],
I have a question: do you maintain that children born in the United States to royal alien parents who are neither “foreign diplomats” nor military invaders are “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment? Please state yes or no and provide the reasoning for your answer."

Granted. You can find my answer at the Fogbow, outside your powers of censorship:
http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=4945&p=619244#p619244

-Bryan

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Byron came up with an answer to your silly question and posted it on the "Mario Apuzzo" thread on the Fogbow. The answer is "yes" and if you'd like a justification, you can find it on the thread, but, because we are actually intellectually curious and honest, we basically proved that our claim is correct.

Tewa Lascelles is 56th in the line of succession and, due to his birth in New Mexico, is eligible for the presidency (or will be in three years provided he's lived in the US for 14 years).

Furthermore, we know this to be true since the ONLY US president who was NOT in the line of succession to the British throne was Martin Van Buren.

Also, according to a british member of the Fogbow, the only members of the royal family that would be excluded (provided they were natural born US citizens) are Elizabeth, Charles, Will and George. Princes Phil and Harry and all of the princesses are good to go.

ajtelles said...

BIG Silence and BIG Disappointment

dittos dick

Yeah, I know.

I spoke out to the universe of "WE the Posterity" of the 1787 original "WE the People" to contact the BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers and BIG Thinkers and let them know that they are a BIG Disappointment!!!

The BIG Talkers and the BIG Bloggers and the BIG Thinkers are NOT low information voters, but they might as well be.

The BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers and BIG Thinkers rarely if ever talk or write about first principles and the original intent of the original genesis meaning of “natural born Citizen” in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 as understood by the 1787 original birthers, the Framers, the original authors of the U.S. Constitution.

The BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers rarely, can we say 99.99% of the time, they never, ever, NEVER talk or write about the original intent and the original genesis meaning of “natural born Citizen” from the original birther perspective of 1787 America.

Paging – Waiting... Waiting... Waiting... for informed comment about Article II Section 1 Clause 5 from these BIG Disappointment BIG Talkers, BIG Bloggers, BIG Thinkers:

_ Gov. Sarah Palin
_ Laura Ingraham
_ Glenn Beck
_ TheBlaze.com
_ TheBlaze.com/tv
_ Rush Limbaugh
_ Sean Hannity
_ Mark Levin
_ Sen. Ted Cruz
_ Sen. Marco Rubio
_Gov. Bobby Jindal
_Gov. Nikki Haley
_ Breitbart.com
_ NationalReview.com
_ HumanEvents.com
_ DrudgeReport.com
_ FrontpageMag.com
_ Conservatives4Palin.com
_ MichelleMalkin.com
_HotAir.com
_”Right Thinking” Et alii

And paging sooooooooo many, so so SO soooooooooooooo many et alii.

The history books will record the
BIG Silence and
BIG Disappointment of ALL of the
BIG Talkers and
BIG Bloggers and
BIG Thinkers.

Sheesh, the way some of the BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers and BIG Thinkers ridicule defenders and articulators of the original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, and the common knowledge of the TWO parents unity of citizenship as understood by John Jay in 1700s America, they might as well be acolytes of Dr. Conspiracy and his 2000s theory, his 2000s myth that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" is sufficient to make a person a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

A BIG Disappointment.

Ok, universe; ok "WE the Posterity" of the 1700s original "WE the People"— do your thing.

Let your local BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers and BIG Thinkers know they are a BIG Disappointment as long as they maintain their BIG Silence.

Speak out about the BIG Silence and the BIG Disappointment

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Contrary to Mario's misrepresentations, everything I've said about set theory is completely and demonstrably correct (nor does anything Doc C said conflict with anything I said). The problem with what you said about sets is your "cargo cult" understanding (by which I mean you adopt the trappings as best you can with no understanding whatsoever of how they work). Most of the sets you list as "subsets" are, in addition, proper subsets. In general, the term "proper subset" isn't used unless you want to make a point that the subset is not the set itself. This makes your comment silly, but what makes it ignorant (and reflects your cargo cult understanding of set theory) is that you draw an analogy between set theory and citizenship (or try to) but fail to use that analogy to use a (demonstrably true) theorem of set theory to make a point regarding citizenship.

I'd appreciate it if you would just leave off the maths---it's painful watching someone who clearly has no idea how embarrassing the ignorance displayed by his comments is.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I asked Slartibartfast and [Unknow/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson] this question:

"[Do you maintain that children born in the United States to royal alien parents who are neither “foreign diplomats” nor military invaders are “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment? Please state yes or no and provide the reasoning for your answer."

Here is Bryan Gene Olson's answer:

"Yes, Mr. Apuzzo, such children are citizens of the United States under the 14'th Amendment, because they are are born in the United States and subject to U.S. jurisdiction. The first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment reads:
'All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.'
Furthermore, the last sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment reads:

'The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.'

Congress has done so. 8 USC 1401 begins:

'The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof[]."

=====

Now I have another question for you or Slartibartfast. Article I, Section 9 of the Constitution provides:

“No title of nobility shall be granted by the United States: and no person holding any office of profit or trust under them, shall, without the consent of the Congress, accept of any present, emolument, office, or title, of any kind whatever, from any king, prince, or foreign state.”

Your position is that a child born in the United States to one or two alien parents who are not foreign diplomats or military invaders are “citizens of the United States” at birth under colonial English common law and the Fourteenth Amendment and therefore ipso facto Article II “natural born citizens.” We have also just established that you also maintain that children born in the United States to royal alien parents who are not “foreign diplomats” or military invaders are “citizens of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress and therefore also natural born citizens.

How do you reconcile your thesis that we can have a child born in the United States to royal alien parents, who later in life can become a prince or even a king, and who is constitutionally eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military, with Article I, Section 9? In your answer be sure to address that while the United States did not actually grant any title of nobility and that the person did not “accept” any such title, for the title was inherited by birth, still, under your position, we have a person who is potentially a prince or king who is constitutionally eligible to be President and Commander. Moreover, as can be seen from Article I, Section 9, the Framers viewed a “king, prince, or foreign state” as equivalent terms. In other words, the Framers saw being a king or prince as equivalent to being a foreign state. How do you explain that under your thesis, we are allowing a king or prince, i.e., a foreign state, to be constitutionally eligible to be President and Commander?

You can publish my question and your answer both here and at the Fogbow given that such process seems to be what you prefer.

Slartibartfast said...

dick head,

You asked to see a "legitimate" copy of President Obama's 1981 passport. The answer to your question is no, you cannot. As the record of a living person, you have no right to that information, it has no probative value in determining the president's eligibility and President Obama has already appeased seditious birther scum far too much by releasing his long form.

It is overwhelmingly probable that he traveled to Pakistan on the US passport which both the State of Hawai'i and the US State Department claim that he was eligible to hold (being a US citizen).

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I posted my latest comment to Mr. Olson before I read your comment regarding royals born in the United States being good to go to become President and Commander in Chief of the Military. So, it is only appropriate that you also address my question, especially in light of your comments about what you consider to be my "silly" question.

P.S. It looks like you are having much more fun with my “royals” question than you did with my questions about subsets and proper subsets.

Slartibartfast said...

Reposting due to error message (Mario, if the first post got through, feel free to delete this)

As seen on the Fogbow:

I can't find the enthusiasm to untangle Mario's tortuous logic. It makes my eyes spin.

If Mario is saying that "oh my! there might be bits of the constitution that conflict in ultra-rare circumstances! oh noes!" then that doesn't seem to me to be a big problem. As the old saying has it: "difficult cases make bad law". And one of the tasks of courts is to determine in a rational manner how the intentions of superficially conflicting rules, laws and regulations should be interpreted and applied. That's a red herring. And if rules are slightly inconsistent, that does not mean that Mario can simply say "in that case, it's whatever I choose".

In the highly unlikely event of a real foreign prince or other royal wanted to be PotUS, if otherwise constutionally eligible, I say "let the voters decide!". That's democracy, something which terrifies birthers. But said royal would almost certainly renounce their royalness in order to appease voters' worries, in the same way that Ted Cruz is renouncing his Canuckiness to look properly Amurikan.

Or is Mario going to enlist he, Lucas Smith's help to prove that Mr. Obama is actually Prince Barack II of Kenya, Duke of Mombasa and Earl of Kogelo?


Too also:

So what? The United States is the country of opportunity. Why does Apuzzo hate the Constitution so much?

To which I add...

In the strictest sense of the law, I don't think it would do more than prevent a holder of public office from accepting a role as crown prince or king (in addition to things prohibited to anyone under the law). Everything else is in the voter's purview to decide its importance.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Your dishonest regarding the law bothers me much less than your (proven) dishonesty regarding set theory. Why do you think that is?

(hint: what are our respective professions?)

Slartibartfast said...

An additional comment seen on the Fogbow (feel free to assume I agree with anything said there unless I specifically say otherwise):

I suppose that one indicator might be whether the parents travelled to the US using a diplomatic passport or a conventional one. The former would render such a child a non-citizen, while the latter would be a US citizen.

As for the title of nobility, that could be an issue, but IMHO it does not conflict with either Article II or the 14th Amendment. There is nothing in the Constitution that says a US citizen can not hold a title of nobility from a foreign country. Nor does it preclude him/her from being president. It merely requires that he/she obtain permission from Congress to take office. Whether or not such permission is likely is a political question. I personally doubt that it would happen, but a sufficiently popular candidate, whose party controlled both houses, might conceiveably receive permission.

But then, I could be wrong...

ajtelles said...

Think...

Mario, oooooooh, you're a mean teacher.

On June 17, 2014 at 10:14 AM, you wrote that you asked both Slartibartfast, aka S..., and Unknown aka Unknown #11 aka NotLinda aka brygenon aka Bryan Gene Olson this question:

>> "Do you maintain that
>> children born in the United States
>> to royal alien parents
>> who are neither
>> “foreign diplomats” nor
>> military invaders
>> are “citizens of the United States”
>> under the Fourteenth Amendment?
>>Please state yes or no and provide the reasoning for your answer."


You're making the students of Dr. Conspiracy to think outside of his 2000s theory box, outside of his 2000s myth box.

You are asking, not ordering, simply asking them to think in the 1700 "unity of citizenship" original intent and original genesis box.

The common knowledge in 1700s America, until the 1922 Cable Act, was that ONLY the U.S. citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. citizenship of the wife, AND the singular U.S. citizenship of BOTH U.S. parents determined the singular U.S. citizenship of the "citizen" child who ONLY was recognized as a "natural born Citizen" child.

Is it reasonable to expect Obama-birthers to think contrary to the 2000s myth that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" and NOT that TWO citizen parents was John Jay's ONLY 1700s "unity of citizenship" original intent and original genesis meaning for underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen?"

Reasonable? Yes.

Two parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

no beef on fogbow...


I read the thread on fogbow, and noticed that there is absolutely NO reference to the 1700s original intent and original genesis understanding the the "unity of citizenship."

>> http://www.thefogbow.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=4945&start=1000

It seems that S...'s fellow true believers in the ONLY one-citizen-child theory, the myth, NEVER comment about the original intent of the original birthers, and they stick with the Obama birth narrative as loyal Obama-birthers.

Good for them, as thy know what the DO believe, thy simply do NOT know WHY.

Otherwise they would define and defend the one-citizen-parent myth and rebut and refute the 1700s understanding that ONLY the U.S. citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. citizenship of the wife, AND the singular U.S. citizenship of BOTH parents determined the singular U.S. citizenship of the child as a U.S. citizen and the ONLY U.S. citizen to be recognized as a U.S. "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be PotUS.

TWO parents = yes.
ONE parent = no.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Put up or shut up sfast

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

The argument that you provide to your “royal” dilemma is fallacious. The issue is a constitutional question, not a political question. The constitutional question is what the Framers required constitutionally concerning the meaning of a natural born citizen. The political question of what future voters would do with respect to voting for any certain presidential candidate is outside the evidence required to answer that question and is therefore fallacious.

Your position is that your Fourteenth Amendment royal “citizen of the United States” at birth is eligible to be President and Commander in Chief, even though the Constitution prohibits titles of nobility and treats a “King” and “Prince” as being equivalent to a “foreign State.” Article I, Section 9, Clause 8. You want us to accept that by simply responding, “let the people decide.” You have got to be off your Obot rocker, like off the cliff, to think that the Framers and People wrote a Constitution (which prohibits titles of nobility and anything to do with monarchy and equates royalty to being a foreign nation) which would have allowed royals to be eligible to be President and Commander of the new constitutional republic for which they sacrificed life, family, treasure, and honor. As can be readily seen, telling us that future voters should decide if someone is eligible to be President (this is the Senator Ted Cruz angle to becoming President) does not address at all what the Framers required in the Constitution and that your position is contrary to what they specifically stated in the Constitution.

Your option is only to admit that not all born citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment (excluding, for example royal born citizens and anyone else who does not meet the constitutional national common law definition of a natural born citizen, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth) are natural born citizens, or to take the position that royals cannot be citizens of the United States at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. But then you do not have the latter option, for you and Bryan Gene Olson have already told us that such royals are citizens of the United States at birth under the amendment.

So, again, you have been check mated.

P.S. you really should give up on that set theory thing. It does not make you look good.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of II

We have this comment as Café con Leche Republicans by The Magic M who is an Obot who comments at Dr. Conspiracy’s blog:

There’s a very simple argument which destroys your “Framers relied on Vattel” claim, and it goes like this:

1. The Framers didn’t write the Constitution for legal scholars.

2. The Framers didn’t write the Constitution for people who knew French.

3. The Framers didn’t write the Constitution for people who heard of Vattel.

4. The Framers didn’t write the Constitution for people who knew how they (the Framers) secretly translated “les naturels ou indigènes” as “natural-born citizens”.

5. The Framers didn’t write the Constitution for people who could guess that “natural-born citizen” does not refer to “natural-born subjects” from Common Law but instead their secret alternative meaning from (4).

6. The Framers didn’t write the Constitution for people who were all of the above.

7. The Framers wrote the Constitution for the people.
Apuzzo and other Vattelists want us to believe (6) when instead (7) is obviously correct.

q.e.d.

(I add the Framers weren’t pranksters either, nor did they intend some Dan Brownish effort to take place 200+ years later to uncover their “secret”.)
http://www.cafeconlecherepublicans.com/birther-madness-2/#comment-31497

=====

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Here is my reply:

Your point that the Constitution's meaning generally and the meaning of a “natural born citizen” specifically should be determined by the English common law because the Framers wrote it for the People has no merit.

First, the People had a revolution with the English and the Framers specifically made it known that they rejected the English common law as a guide for defining terms in the Constitution which applied to the national government (not to be confused with terms in the original and later in the amended constitution that applied to the states which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by their legislature so as to maintain a civil society). In fact, the Framers provided for national citizenship that was to be based after the ratification of the Constitution on American national law and not on colonial English common law or even state citizenship. The states could continue to make state citizens under state law (state common or statutory law), but only the federal government under American national law could make national citizens.

Second, the Framers were who they were and carried with them specific knowledge about specific topics and you cannot change that by the fact that they wrote the Constitution for the People. The Framers constituted a new nation and they had to use words and phrases in the Constitution which allowed them to accomplish that goal most effectively and efficiently. Proof that your theory holds no water is in the fact that the Framers used in the Constitution the following words or phrases the meaning of which the average person did not necessarily know:

“uniform Rule of Naturalization;”

“uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies;”

“Offenses against the Law of Nations;”

“Letters of Marque and Reprisal;”

“Writ of Habeas corpus;”

“Bill of Attainder;”

“ex post facto Law;” and

“natural born Citizen.”

These words or phrases were words of art known by a certain group of people. As to “natural born citizen,” the clause is a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause. People of the time who did have the knowledge as to what these terms meant would have then shared their knowledge with the People.

Third, the definition of a natural born citizen that I put forth is no “secret” as you allege. The definition, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth, has its basis in natural law and the law of nations. The definition is confirmed by, among other sources, John Locke (1689); Samuel von Pufendorf (1691); Jaques Burlamaqui (1747); Emer de Vattel (1758); Thomas Jefferson (1779); Alexander Hamilton (1784); David Ramsay (1789); James Wilson (1791); St. George Tucker (1803); James Madison (1811); Nathan Dane (1824); the early Congresses in the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, 1804, and 1855; Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus, 12 U.S. 253 (1814); House Representative, Langdon Cheves, in February of 1814; Alexander McLeod (1774-1833); Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830); Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242 (1830); Justice Daniel in Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393 (1856); Rep. John Bingham (1862 and 1866); Ludlam, Excutrix, & c., v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1863); The Slaughterhouse Cases, 83 U.S. 36 (1872); Minor v. Happersett (1875); Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F. Cas. 582 (C.C.W.D. Ark 1879); United States v. Ward, 42 F. 320 (1890); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898); and Perkins v. Elg, 307 U.S. 325 (1939). Hence, I fail to see where the secret is.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of III

We have this comment at Café Con Leche Republicans from Lupin, an Obot who posts at Dr. Conspiracy:

Bob Quasius, You said: “Mario Apuzzo is another prominent birther attorney, with a 100% track record of losing birther cases (0 of 9 including appeals). Apuzzo has lost Purpura et al v. Obama, Kerchner v. Obama I, Kerchner v. Obama II, Tisdale v Obama, and Strunk v NY State Board of Elections et al (filed [...]

Once again, Attorney Apuzzo is purposefully misrepresenting what Vattel wrote. In that famous, often misunderstood Article 212 Vattel does what most writers often do: first, establish a general principle; then detail the particulars. The general principle is that citizenship is transmitted through blood.

He expresses it in the following sentence: “Les naturels ou indigenes sont ceux qui sont nés dans le pays de parens citoyens.” Apuzzo’s willful mistranslation of this sentence ignores two things: one, the word “parens” doesn’t just mean father & mother, but all blood relatives, and “citoyens” is a group plural. What Vattel is saying in simple English is: citizenship is transmitted through blood relations; the very essence of the principle of jus sanquinis.

Then, Vattel goes on in the very next sentence, to specify which parent exactly is the prime transmitter of citizenship: the father: “…ces enfants y suivent naturellement la condition de leur père” (the children follow the condition of their fathers, or more colloquially, inherit the status if their fathers) and because Vattel is the kind of writer who likes to repeat the same things twice to emphasize his point, he adds in the second next sentence “la patrie des pères est donc celle des enfants” (the father’s homeland shall be that of his children) and again “Je dis que pour être d’un pays, il faut être né d’un père citoyen”(I say that you belong to a country, one must have been born from a father who is a citizen [of that country’).

One cannot be clearer than that, can one? Not only Vattel never wrote that one must have TWO citizen parents, he explicitly keeps harping (three times!!!) on the fact that it is the FATHER who transmits citizenship to his child.

Had Vattel wanted to say that two citiozen parents were required to transmit citizenship (and we know that he didn’t shy from stating things three times rather than once!), French syntax would have required him to phrase his sentence differently. He would have said: “de DEUX parents citoyens” instead of using a group plural which simply means EITHER (as in : “only children whose PARENTS are MEMBERS of the club may use the swimming pool” meaning EITHER parents, not BOTH).

The absence of the word “deux” is critical here and simply makes Apuzzo’s interpretation absurd. I have of course challenged Attorney Apuzzo several times to find a single French (or German) source in 200+ years of Vattel scholarship that would agree with his nonsensical interpretation, but he never was able to produce one, because they don’t exist.

(This is written by a French attorney.)

=====
Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Here is my response:

It seems that you are just making stuff up. You want us to believe that Vattel, when he said “parens,” really meant “blood relatives.” You position is absurd.

First, we have the words of Vattel himself which proves you wrong. We have this from Vattel, The Law of Nations. Vattel first defines the term, “country” as “the state of which one is a member,” adding that this is the meaning of the term which is to be used in the law of nations. Sec. 122. He further defines “country” as “the state, or even more particularly the town or place where our parents had their fixed residence . . . and of which his parents were members when they gave him birth.” Id. Later, Vattel explains that a nation is made up of its country or countries. In his CHAPTER XIX, entitled “Of our Native Country, and several Things that relate to it,” he adds that all a nation’s countries make up its territory and that the nation exercises its sovereignty over all its countries and territory. All of a nation’s countries and territories are also subject to the nation’s laws. Vattel stresses the critical importance of “love of country, --a virtue so excellent and so necessary in a state.” Sec. 211. He states that a “citizen” is a member of the “civil society” (Sec. 212), which can only mean “country,” for the chapter in which he writes is about “Native Country” and he sets out to “explain several things that have a relation to this subject [country], and answer the questions that naturally arise from it.” Sec. 211. Then he adds that the “natural-born citizens” are those born in the country to parents who were already “citizens” of that country when the child was born. Sec. 212. He states “that each citizen on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it.” He continues: “The country of the father is therefore that of the children.” Vattel finds it necessary that a child be born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” so that the place where the child is born is not only the place of the child’s birth, but also the country that the child will learn to love, cherish, preserve, and protect with his or her life. He adds that society must desire this if it is to assure itself of its own “preservation.”

From this, we can clearly see that Vattel was referring to a child’s father and mother and not to some extended blood family. After all, a child is born to his or her father and mother and not to his other blood relatives. Additionally, the citizenship and domicile of which Vattel spoke was that of the father and mother and could not have been that of so many other blood family members, for to rely upon the citizenship and domicile of so many members of one’s blood family, with potentially a diverse array of citizenships and domiciles, would not have produced a united citizenship and domicile for the child to inherit.

Continued. . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

The central point regarding the need for citizen parents in order for a child born to parents in their country to be a natural born citizen is not how citizenship of the parents is obtained, but rather that they are both citizens prior to the birth of their child. During the time when Vattel wrote The Law of Nations, husbands and wives carried the same citizenship. Wives obtained their citizenship from their husbands. That Vattel speaks about the child’s “father” does not mean that just one citizen parent is sufficient for the child to be born a natural born citizen. In his Section 212 definition of a natural born citizen, he first uses the word “parents.” Later he speaks about “fathers” and “father.” He referred to father because at that time, husbands was the means by which wives obtained their citizenship. Vattel only referred to father because wives followed the citizenship of their husbands. The practice of the unity of citizenship of the husband and wife, with the wife taking on that of the husband, continued throughout our history until the Cable Act of 1922 which for the first time allowed wives to have a separate citizenship from her husband. Even Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) only provided for cases in which both parents were either citizens or aliens. So with the parents having just one citizenship and the child inheriting that citizenship by being born to them and in their nation, being a natural born citizen achieved unity of citizenship and allegiance of the child at the time of birth, meaning that the child was in allegiance with only one nation which was the nation of his or her parents and not also subject to any foreign power. This is the birth status that the Framers required in future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military in order for the nation to have the best chance of being lead in those vital positions by someone who was in allegiance, faith, and loyal only to the United States. So, the Cable Act allowed wives to have their own citizenship. But the act did not nor could it amend the natural born citizen clause’s requirement that both parents be citizens prior to the child’s birth to them in their country.

Second, countless English translators of Vattel’s French text, starting in 1759 down to the present, have translated the French “parens” to the English “parents.”

Third, all U.S. Supreme Court cases that ever commented on the meaning of a “natural born citizen” have used the English “parents” in place of the French “parens.”

So, your battle is with the Framers, our Constitution, this history, and case law, and not with me.

ajtelles said...

Original Intent...
Original Genesis...
It take TWO to produce ONE...


Mario, your three part response/tutorial on June 17, 2014 at 3:37 PM to Café Con Leche Republicans poster "... Lupin, an Obot who posts at Dr. Conspiracy" is a tutorial for the good and pro-America history books that will point to your multi-year online accurate history tutorials about the 1700s' "unity of citizenship" original intent and original genesis meaning of "natural born Citizen" in Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

Part III is one of the BEST expositions of the 1700s' understanding of the "unity of citizenship" that you have ever written, pulling together so man pertinent "original birther" original intent and original genesis points.

You coherently explain what I have been putting into my own words as I myself have become better informed about the mindset of the 1787 Framers, specifically my new "original birther" best friend John Jay, Founder, The Federalist co-author, U.S. Constitution Ratifier and first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

The 1700s common knowledge understanding of the "unity of citizenship" is, in a nutshell, that the U.S. citizenship of the husband determined the U.S. citizenship of the wife (even if she was born to U.S. citizens), AND the married U.S. citizenship of BOTH parents ALWAYS determined the U.S. citizenship of the U.S. "citizen" child, and it was ONLY THAT U.S. citizen child who was recognized as an "original genesis" U.S. "natural born Citizen" who fulfilled original birther John Jay's original intent and original genesis meaning when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to original birther George Washington on July 25, 1787.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

Original Intent...
Original Genesis...
It take TWO to produce ONE...


2/
>> "Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

>> III of III

>> The central point
>> regarding the need for citizen parents
>> in order for a child born to parents in their country
>> to be a natural born citizen
>> is not how citizenship of the parents is obtained,
>> but rather that they are both citizens
>> prior to the birth of their child.

[Not "how" but BOTH parents are "citizens"]

>> During the time when Vattel wrote The Law of Nations,
>> husbands and wives carried the same citizenship.

>> Wives obtained their citizenship from their husbands.

>> That Vattel speaks about the child’s “father”
>> does not mean
>> that just one citizen parent is sufficient
>> for the child to be born a natural born citizen.

>> In his Section 212 definition of a natural born citizen,
>> he first uses the word “parents.”
>> Later he speaks about “fathers” and “father.”
>> He referred to father because at that time,
>> husbands was the means by which wives obtained their citizenship.
>> Vattel only referred to father because wives followed the citizenship of their husbands.

>> The practice of the unity of citizenship
>> of the husband and wife,
>> with the wife taking on that of the husband,
>> continued throughout our history until the Cable Act of 1922
>> which for the first time allowed wives to have a separate citizenship from her husband.

>> Even Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898)
>> only provided for cases in which both parents were either citizens or aliens.
>> So with the parents having just one citizenship
>> and the child inheriting that citizenship
>> by being born to them and in their nation,
>> being a natural born citizen
>> achieved unity of citizenship
>> and allegiance
>> of the child
>> at the time of birth,
>> meaning that the child was in allegiance
>>with only one nation
>> which was the nation of his or her parents
>> and not also subject to any foreign power.

>> This is the birth status
>> that the Framers required
>> in future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military
>> in order for the nation to have the best chance
>> of being lead in those vital positions
>> by someone who was in allegiance, faith, and loyal only to the United States.

>> So, the Cable Act allowed wives to have their own citizenship.
>> But the act did not nor could it
>> amend the natural born citizen clause’s requirement
>> that both parents
>> be citizens
>> prior
>> to the child’s birth to them
>> in their country.

[The 1922 Cable Act did "not ... amend ... requirement ... both parents ... prior."
Yes... the 1922 Cable Act did NOT annul the 1700s common knowledge of "BOTH parents"]


>> Second, countless English translators of Vattel’s French text, starting in 1759 down to the present, have translated the French “parens” to the English “parents.”

>> Third, all U.S. Supreme Court cases that ever commented on the meaning of a “natural born citizen” have used the English “parents” in place of the French “parens.”

>> So, your battle
>> is with the Framers, our Constitution, this history, and case law, and
>> not with me."

>> June 17, 2014 at 3:37 PM

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Dittos, Mario, the Obama-birthers are arguing with the 1700s original intent and original genesis understanding of the original birthers, the original Framers and Ratifiers, specifically original birther John Jay and HIS original intent in writing his note to original birther George Washington.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

Your analysis, comments, and support are always highly appreciated.

You might also be interested in reading my article which I published on this blog on May 18, 2009, entitled Article II "Natural Born Citizen" Means Unity of Citizenship and Allegiance at Birth , accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2009/05/article-ii-natural-born-citizen-means.html .

By the way, the venn diagram demonstrates how natural born citizens is a proper subset of born citizens.

ajtelles said...

"unity of citizenship and allegiance"...

Thanks Mario, for the reminder about your May 18, 2009 post about the "unity of citizenship and allegiance" as understood by the 1700 original birthers who debated and adopted the original words of the Constitution and who understood the implications and nuances of "natural born Citizen" based on their 1700s common knowledge about the "unity of citizenship and allegiance."

It's been such a long time that I looked at it, I forgot about it.

I just read it, and, while it is more complete, I definitely like how you brought together the original intent and original genesis understanding of the 1700s original birthers in your 3 part response to "Lupin" on June 17, 2014 at 3:37 PM.

My new best friend John Jay would probably say "ditto that Mario," and look at the Cafe Con Leche Republicans and wonder why they accept the Dr. Conspiracy and the Obama birth narrative Obama-birther 2000s theory, the 2000s myth that ONLY one-citizen-parent is sufficient to make a person, born on U.S. soil OR on foreign soil, a U.S. "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be PotUS.

It's a wonder of wonders that Republicans, like the Cafe Con Leche Republicans, would accept hook, line and sinker, along Democrats like Dr. Conspiracy and most Obama-birthers, the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth that ONLY one-citizen-parent is good 'nuf.

Do they really think deeply, as they're drinking their cafe con leche, about the historical myth that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" could implicitly fulfill John Jay's national security reason for underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen?"

They simply argue to defend the Obama birth narrative that ONLY one-citizen-parent is good 'nuf, so no wonder they do not care that my favorite Republican Texas senator, Sen. Ted Cruz, was NOT born on U.S. soil to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other as BOTH U.S. citizens BEFORE he was born.

Sen. Cruz would not get John Jay's endorsement, even though is an excellent Reagan style conservative and an excellent "MY GUY" choice for PotUS.

John Jay would probably say that being an excellent Republican Party "MY GUY" is NOT good 'nuf, because if the Democratic Party "MY GUY" also was born on foreign soil to ONLY "one-citizen-parent" in 1700s America or in 2000s America, THAT would definitely NOT be good 'nuf.

TWO parents = original intent.
TWO parents = original genesis.
TWO parents = original birthers John Jay and George Washington.

ONE parent = Obama-birthers

TWO parents produce ONE "original genesis" U.S. citizen child.
TWO parents produce ONE original genesis "natural born Citizen" child.

BOTH parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther "Document" of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Has anyone ever heard of a country where you can inherit citizenship from just blood relatives haha? Only if the blood relatives are the father or mother.

Slartibartfast said...

dick head,

You miss the point---if it is blood relatives (which would also include grandparents, etc.) then it is clear that it is a group plural (i.e. one blood relative is sufficient)

Slartibartfast said...

Question and answer from the Fogbow:

Notorial Dissent wrote:

My question before the house is, and Apuzzo's nonsense/delusions not withstanding, and pre-14th, what would have the colonial opinion pre and post revolution been of someone from a foreign country being born here? My supposition/belief is that they would have been considered citizens of the colony/state they resided in at the time as well as being British subjects(pre) under the common and statute law of the time, and state/US citizens(post). My feeling, from having read the initial naturalization acts is that they held the same opinion as far as birth here, citizen at birth, born out of the country, pretty much as now with some variation for the time.


Ballantine answered:

The situation in the Colonies was fairly complex. Persons born in the colonies were natural born British subjects whether their parents were aliens or not. Children born in foreign countries of colonists who were natural born subjects were also generally natural born subjects pursuant to British statutes, at least in the decades leading up to the revolution. These natural born British subjects, as well as aliens naturalized by Parliament, had full rights of membership in colonial society. Unnaturalized aliens were subject to numerous disabiliaties such as the inability to hold land. The colonies, eager for more immigrants, were frustrated with Parliment's hesitancy to naturalize aliens and hence adopted their own naturalization statutes for the foreign born. These statutes, of course, could not make aliens British subjects, but could give them full rights of membership in the particular colony whether they were called denizens, subjects or citizens. Indeed, there are examples of persons being called citizens of a colony or state prior to 1776. Hence, there was a notion of colonial citizenship even if it was not always called citizenship. After 1776, nothing really changed other than the term "citizen" was used more often, though "subject" continued to be used for decades. Most colonies adopted English statutes that spoke of "natural born subjects" and aliens and the courts continued to cite British case law as they obviously had nothing else. The tern "natural born citizen" was used early on in situations that seem to presume application of such term to persons born before 1776. This includes state naturalization statutes and treaties. The Maine Constitution required the Governor to be a natural born citizen and its first governor under such Constitution was born before 1776.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

I notice that you listed several terms found in the Constitution, but failed to point out that they all derive their definitions from the nomenclature of the English common law---definitions you likely agree with in every case save one.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

The issue is not what English common or statutory law provided regarding one becoming an English subject in the colonies. The issue is what American common and statutory law provided with respect to American citizenship. Concerning national citizenship, not to be conflated or confounded with state citizenship , the two were not the same.

With the American Revolution, a new society was created in the states. The new America rejected the English common law’s notion of broad allegiance (that even friendly aliens present in the King's dominion where "subjects" and therefore owed political and military allegiance to the King/nation). Citizenship in America was now to be determined by individual consent, either by an adult or by a minor through his or her parents. Indeed, in the new America a person could be bound to be in political and military allegiance to the nation only if he or she consented to be.

Despite the passage of over six years of study of this subject, Ballantine continues to commit the same grave error, conflating and confounding state citizenship (defined by state common and statutory law) with national citizenship (defined by national common law, statutes, treaties, and eventually also the Fourteenth Amendment).

Under American national common law, an Article II “natural born citizen” was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child's birth. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). The Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, 1804, and 1855 acted upon all other persons not so born, making those who qualified thereunder naturalized “citizens of the United States” either at birth or after birth. The 1790 Act provided that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” The 1795 act repealed the 1790 Act and replaced that language with “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.” These early naturalization acts, making no distinction between children born in the United States or out of it if they were born to alien parents, treated children born in the United States to alien parents as it did if they were born out of it, as aliens and in need of naturalization which could occur only after their birth. This early Congressional rule destroys Jack Maskell’s thesis that all born citizens are natural born citizens. This was Congress telling us that it adopted the law of nation’s jus sanguinis citizenship and rejected the English common law rule of jus soli. National treaties also made citizens of the United States after birth. Then in 1868, the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified and it also made “citizens of the United States” at birth and confirmed and made uniform who the state citizens were.

The critical constitutional point is that after July 4, 1776, there was only one and only one definition of a natural born citizen which did not change and could not change unless done so through a duly ratified constitutional amendment or through a U.S. Supreme Court decision. With neither of these two ever occurring in our history, the national definition of a natural born citizen remained as it was when the Framers drafted and adopted the Constitution and the natural born citizen clause. That definition is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Minor. This is the definition of the clause which de facto President Barack Obama, Senator Ted Cruz, Senator Marco Rubio, Governor Bobby Jindal, and Governor Nikki Haley do not and cannot satisfy.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

The issue is neither the English common law nor American common law (which was merely the English common law with such alterations as the several states saw fit to make) and English statutory law was right out. The issue is the nomenclature of American common law, which is indistinguishable from that of the English common law save for cosmetic changes* like "subject" becoming "citizen". What is a Bill of Attainder and how do you know that? Because it is defined in the nomenclature of the common law. Just like natural born.

* This is explicitly said in Minor, so unless you care to throw that case out, you must accept it (or demonstrate your complete dishonesty).

ajtelles said...

two vs. one...

dick, on June 18, 2014 at 8:02 AM Slartibartfast, aka S... responded to you and offered an opinion without adducing sources or even "one" source.

>> "You miss the point [...]
>> blood relatives ...
>> include grandparents ...
>> is clear
>> that it is a group plural >> (i.e. one blood relative is sufficient)"


Hmmm, is S... asserting that in the 1700s John Jay was implying that ONLY or ALSO "...one blood relative is sufficient" to produce a U.S. citizen child who would be recognized in 1700s America as a "natural born Citizen" so, of course, John Jay would be implying the same thing, ONLY or ALSO, which also implies TWO, in 2000s America.

Really, are you sure that you really want to stick with "one" S..., and Dr. Conspiracy and Foggy and Cafe Con Leche Republicans and et alii, soooooo many et alii who are Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers?

1-Was John Jay implying ONLY ONE "blood relative"?
2-Was John Jay implying ONLY TWO "blood relative[s]?
3-Was John Jay implying ALSO TWO "blood relative[s]?
4-Was John Jay implying ALL THREE "blood relative" possibilities?

dick, you will notice in the future that S... will NEVER, ever... ever... ever... ever... answer any one of the four simple questions.

S... will NEVER answer it, not because he is ignoring little ol' me since I met my 1700s new best friend John Jay, but because he can NOT answer any of the question and adduce original sources, including my new best friend John Jay.

If S... were to answer any "ONE" of the questions, it shoots the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth to smithereens to say that John Jay was implying more than "ONE" meaning in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" of the new "Union" in 1700s America and for their posterity, "WE the Posterity" in 2000s America.

TWO parents? Yes.
ONE parent? No.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Robert said...

Where can we find if the Congressional Research Office - Jack Maskell - was involved with SR 511, sponsored by Mr. Obama, where Mr. Obama and the entirety of the US Senate clearly recognized that a natural born citizen is one born under US jurisdiction to two US Citizen parents?

Did they advise for or against the premise of this bill?

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...
"Mario,
I notice that you listed several terms found in the Constitution, but failed to point out that they all derive their definitions from the nomenclature of the English common law---definitions you likely agree with in every case save one."

-------------
So where do you get the absurd notion that all "definitions" were derived from English common law?

In the framing period, there was NO DEFINITION in English common law for a "natural born citizen" of a republic, nor was there an eligibility criteria for office of a president of a republic in English common law.

So you still avoid answering the question, i.e. what "common law" was the MAJORITY of the SCOTUS in the Minor v Happersett opinion referring to where the SCOTUS held, based on "common law" that a "natural born citizen" was one who was native-born to US citizen parents?????, and in the same paragraph, held that there were credible, unsolved doubts as to whether native-birth to alien parents was sufficient to make one eligible to be a mere "citizen of the United States", let alone a "natural born citizen"?????

There is no way that eligibility for a person's subject status to an English monarch, can be defined the same as the eligibility criteria for a citizen of a republic's eligibility for the office of president of that republic.

Your delusional Kev.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

The issue is neither the English common law nor American common law (which was merely the English common law with such alterations as the several states saw fit to make) and English statutory law was right out. The issue is the nomenclature of American common law, which is indistinguishable from that of the English common law save for cosmetic changes* like "subject" becoming "citizen". What is a Bill of Attainder and how do you know that? Because it is defined in the nomenclature of the common law. Just like natural born.

* This is explicitly said in Minor, so unless you care to throw that case out, you must accept it (or demonstrate your complete dishonesty).
June 18, 2014 at 2:37 PM

Slart, you are hoist on your own petard here.

If you insist on your point, then you also have to accept what the Minor court said with it:

"At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."

These were natives, or natural-born citizens.

ajtelles said...

2 points...
1-the issue is not - the issue is...
2-the word "change"

#1 -

Mario, on June 18, 2014 at 1:17 PM, you clarified a point to Slartibartfast, aka S... -

>> "The issue is not
>> what English common
>> or statutory law provided
>> regarding one becoming an English subject in the colonies.

>> The issue is
>> what American common and statutory law
>> provided with respect to American citizenship.

[...]


Mario, it is at this point that my new best friend John Jay might say something like, dittos Mario, the issue in 1787 America was "American common and statutory law" which defined a citizen of a state and of the states united. The national naturalization laws were informed by the 1700s common law, the common knowledge, the common understanding that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child. THAT is why the word "born" was underlined in "natural born Citizen" and inserted into Article II Section 1 Clause 5 BEFORE the first national naturalization act was passed in 1790.

I think that John Jay was not confused by the differences between English common or statutory law and American common and statutory law. In underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" Jay was NOT implying a 1700s MAYBE one-citizen-parent father who was NOT married to the mother of the child of the father, or a 2000s MAYBE one-citizen-parent mother who was NOT married to the (alleged) father of the child.

Common sense in 1700s America or in 2000s America can mean that John Jay implied ONLY one thing.

BOTH parents.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

#2 -

Mario, here's a constitutional question for you about the first sentence in the last paragraph where you wrote -

>> "The critical constitutional point is that after July 4, 1776,
>> there was only one and only one definition of a natural born citizen
>> which did not change and could not change
>> unless done so through a duly ratified constitutional amendment or
>> through a U.S. Supreme Court decision.


[...]

In the amendment process, whether initiated by the House and Senate with ratification by three-quarters of the states, when there is a "change ... through a duly ratified constitutional amendment," the executive and the legislative branches have no say, and the ratified amendment becomes constitutional law.

My question concerns the concluding word of the sentence, "or through a U.S. Supreme Court decision."

In a ScotUS decision, the Legislative and Executive branches can affect the ScofUS decision in constitutional ways, while in an Article V amendment initiated by the national Legislature or two-thirds of the states legislatures, neither the ScotUS or the Executive can affect the initiation of the amendment process, the daily process, the debates or the ratification of the amendment by three-quarters of the several states even if "... two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendment" and not the House and Senate.

The question is, how can the ScotUS "change" an Article of the Constitution if the ScotUS or the Executive can not "change" an amendment?

I think I can extrapolate your intent from other things you have written, but this is simply a question based on how the sentence is worded.

Thanks,

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

The U.S. Supreme Court has the final judicial say on the meaning of the Constitution. The high Court can tell us whatever it wants regarding what the Constitution means. We saw that with Chief Justice Roberts and ObamaCare, which not only involved informing us what the Constitution means, but also rewriting a Congressional statute. That is not to suggest that there is no way to hold the high Court accountable.

After a Supreme Court decision, the People still have a mechanism available to them by which to reject what the Court has done. If the People do not like what the high Court has done, they can overrule it through a constitutional amendment. The People can also wait for the composition of the Court to change and then bring another similar case to the Court. Needles to say, both of these mechanism are not easy to utilize, for they require political majorities and great political will and all that is associated with obtaining such majorities and will.

Understanding how difficult it is to reject what the Court does, the People still have the ultimate political power to change it if they use it.

Slartibartfast said...

Robert,

That's not what the Senate resolution said. You make the same mistake as Mario does in Minor, saying that they gave a necessary condition when they really gave a sufficient condition. They said that John McCain, born to US citizens on a naval base, was a natural born citizen---which is completely consistent with Jack Maskell's CRS report (which said NBC = citizen at birth). What makes you think that the rest of the CRS doesn't agree with Mr. Maskell? I know another former CRS attorney who is, if anything, better at debunking birther nonsense than Mr. Maskell seems to be. I doubt any CRS legislative attorney would have come up with a substantively different answer to the question they were asked.

ajtelles said...

final say...

Mario, that's what I thought you might be referring to.

>> "The U.S. Supreme Court has the final judicial say on what the meaning of the Constitution."

And dittos to what you wrote,

>> "If the People do not like what the high Court did,
>> they can overrule it through a constitutional amendment ... [and]
>> wait for the composition of the Court to change ... ."


Yes, the SCotUS has the final say on the meaning and original intent of the original words of the original Constitution and amendments, unless the people act.

I think my new best friend John Jay, first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, might say that the "final say" is the authority of the two other branches, which means TWO branches trump ONE branch, and if the executive branch does nothing to countermand the "final say" of the ScotUS, then the penultimate "final say" is the Article V amendment process initiated by the Congress, which trumps the TWO branches because they have no constitutional input in the amendment process, but if the Congress supports the Executive and so two branches agree with the third branch, the SCotUS, then the ultimate "final say" is the Article V amendment process initiated by two-thirds of the several state's legislatures when "... the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments... ."

The "...two thirds of the several States" means the people of the states kicking their states legislatures into action to countermand the entire federal government with a convention of states.

Maybe an Article V convention of state legislatures to propose andments is a constitutional idea whose time has come.

An Article V convention of states is a more constitutional response to the idiocy emanating from the administrators of OUR federal government than were the the "penumbras" and emanations" of the 1965 Griswold v. Connecticut ScotUS decision.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

James Madison wrote in Federalist No. 43 hat the states legislatures could originate amendments to correct errors and this was just as valid as the Congress initiated option. He said that the Constitution "... equally enables the general and the State governments to originate the amendment of errors, as they may be pointed out by the experience on one side, or on the other."

In Federalist No. 85, Alexander Hamilton wrote that the states can hold the federal government accountable with an Article V convention of states to propose amendments. "We may safely rely on the disposition of the State legislatures to erect barriers against the encroachments of the national authority.”

In his September 17, 1796 Farewell Address, President George Washington said (in paragraph 26) -
>> http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Washington%27s_Farewell_Address

"The necessity of reciprocal checks in the exercise of political power, by dividing and distributing it into different depositories, and constituting each the Guardian of the Public Weal against invasions by the others, has been evinced by experiments ancient and modern; some of them in our country and under our own eyes. To preserve them must be as necessary as to institute them.

"If, in the opinion of the people, the distribution or modification of the constitutional powers be in any particular wrong, let it be corrected by an amendment in the way, which the constitution designates.

"But let there be no change by usurpation; for, though this, in one instance, may be the instrument of good, it is the customary weapon by which free governments are destroyed.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

how do you know...

Excellent sentence Wilted Rose, on June 18, 2014 at 5:38 PM.

You wrote to Slartibartfast, aka S...,

>> What is a Bill of Attainder
>> and how do you know that?

>> Because it is defined
>> in the nomenclature of the common law.

>> Just like natural born."


My new best friend John Jay would probably say that you hit the 1700s common law nail on the head with a perfect finish.

The common law understanding of the unity of citizenship and allegiance was so well understood in 1700s America that there was no doubt that citizenship of the father determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

BOTH parents.

NO to "one-citizen-parent"
YES to "two-citizen-parents"

I wonder who started the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth, that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" was implied by the original birthers, specifically by John Jay when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washington?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of III

Your nomenclature argument works against you, not for you. You have it wrong that a “natural born citizen” was part of the nomenclature of the English common law and therefore defined by it. In fact, the English common law neither contained the natural born citizen clause nor defined it. Furthermore, even if the English common law somehow aided in defining the clause which it did not, the Framers would not have looked to the English common law for any aid in defining it.

First, James Madison wrote to George Washington on October 18, 1787, stating:

"What can he mean by saying that the Common law is not secured by the new constitution, though it has been adopted by the State Constitutions. The common law is nothing more than the unwritten law, and is left by all the constitutions equally liable to legislative alterations. I am not sure that any notice is particularly taken of it in the Constitutions of the States. If there is, nothing more is provided than a general declaration that it shall continue along with other branches of law to be in force till legally changed. The Constitution of Virga. drawn up by Col Mason himself, is absolutely silent on the subject. An ordinance passed during the same Session, declared the Common law as heretofore & all Statutes of prior date to the 4 of James I. to be still the law of the land, merely to obviate pretexts that the separation from G. Britain threw us into a State of nature, and abolished all civil rights and Obligations. Since the Revolution every State has made great inroads & with great propriety in many instances on this monarchical code. The 'revisal of the laws' by a Committee of wch. Col. Mason was a member, though not an acting one, abounds with such innovations. The abolition of the right of primogeniture, which I am sure Col. Mason does not disapprove, falls under this head. What could the Convention have done? If they had in general terms declared the Common law to be in force, they would have broken in upon the legal Code of every State in the most material points: they wd. have done more, they would have brought over from G.B. a thousand heterogeneous & antirepublican doctrines, and even the ecclesiastical Hierarchy itself, for that is a part of the Common law. If they had undertaken a discrimination, they must have formed a digest of laws, instead of a Constitution. This objection surely was not brought forward in the Convention, or it wd. have been placed in such a light that a repetition of it out of doors would scarcely have been hazarded. Were it allowed the weight which Col. M. may suppose it deserves, it would remain to be decided whether it be candid to arraign the Convention for omissions which were never suggested to them — or prudent to vindicate the dissent by reasons which either were not previously thought of, or must have been wilfully concealed. But I am running into a comment as prolix, as it is out of place."

2 Documentary History of the Constitution, IV, 334-336. 3 Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, p. 129 (M. Farrand ed. 1911). http://www.constitution.org/jm/17871018_wash.htm.

This letter from Madison to Washington is one smoking gun on the meaning of a natural born citizen. Note how Madison said the Convention did not even dare mention the English common law was to have any role in defining anything in the Constitution. Surely, if the question of the meaning of a natural born citizen had come up during the convention and a delegate said that it had the same meaning as an English common law “natural-born subject,” Madison would not have written what he did, that if there was any talk about the applicability of the English common law during the Convention, the delegates would have so decisively taken care of such a suggestion that “repetition of it out of doors would scarcely have been hazarded.”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

Second, here is another smoking gun. James Madison told us about the propriety of using the English common law to define terms in the Constitution:

“Mr. MADISON. Mr. Chairman, permit me to make a few observations, which may place this part in a more favorable light than the gentleman placed it in yesterday. It may be proper to remark that the organization of the general government for the United States was, in all its parts, very difficult. There was a peculiar difficulty in that of the executive. Every thing incident to it must have participated in that difficulty. That mode which was judged most expedient was adopted, till experience should point out one more eligible. This part was also attended with difficulties. It claims the indulgence of a fair and liberal interpretation. I will not deny that, according to my view of the subject, a more accurate attention might place it in terms which would exclude some of the objections now made to it. But if We take a liberal construction, I think we shall find nothing dangerous or inadmissible in it. In compositions of this kind, it is difficult to avoid technical terms which have the same meaning. An attention to this may satisfy gentlemen that precision was not so easily obtained as may be imagined. I will illustrate this by one thing in the Constitution. There is a general power to provide courts to try felonies and piracies committed on the high seas. Piracy is a word which may be considered as a term of the law of nations. Felony is a word unknown to the law of nations, and is to be found in the British laws, and from thence adopted in the laws of these states. It was thought dishonorable to have recourse to that standard. A technical term of the law of nations is therefore used, that we should find ourselves authorized to introduce it into the laws of the United States. The first question which I shall consider is, whether the subjects of {532} its cognizance be proper subjects of a federal jurisdiction. The second will be, whether the provisions respecting it be consistent with safety and propriety, will answer the purposes intended, and suit local circumstances.”

James Madison, at the Virginia Constitutional Ratifying Convention http://constitution.org/rc/rat_va_17.htm . See also The Federalist No. 42 (James Madison explained that the English common law and statute law was a “dishonorable and illegitimate guide” to defining terms in the Constitution). It was considered “dishonorable and illegitimate” to resort to the English common law for a definition of a term used in the Constitution. Hence, how could the English common law have provided the definition of a “natural born Citizen?” It could not. The law of nations was accepted as a law to define terms used in the Constitution. Hence, it was the law of nations that provided the rules of decision for defining an Article II “natural born Citizen.”

Third, here is what Justice Noah H. Swayne said about whether the English common law defined a natural born citizen:

“The constitution uses the words 'citizen' and 'natural born citizens;' but neither that instrument nor any act of congress has attempted to define their meaning. British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject . . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject.”

United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785, 788 (Cir. Ct. Ky 1866).
We can see that the court did not tell us that we derived the definition of a “citizen” and a “natural born Citizen” from the English common law. So from what law did the Framers get their definition of a natural born citizen?”

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

Fourth, at the time the Framers wrote the Constitution, they relied heavily upon Vattel and his, The Law of Nations (1758). Here is how Vattel defined a natural born citizen:

“The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”

Id. Sec. 212.

Fifth, how do we know that the Framers used Vattel’s definition of a natural born citizen? We know because the U.S. Supreme Court told us by what is said about how the Framers defined the clause. Apart from the U.S. Supreme Court cases already cited, we have the Minor decision. This is what the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor said about the nomenclature of the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution and specifically the natural born citizen clause:

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."

Minor v. Happersett (1875).

Clearly, in how the Court defined a natural born citizen, Justice Swayne and the other members of the Court did not look to the English common law to define the clause. The English common law made no reference to the citizenship of a child’s parents when that child was born in the King’s dominion. Also, if English common law jus soli had survived the America Revolution, Minor could not have said that “there have been doubts” about whether a child born in the U.S. to alien parents was a citizen. Hence, we know that for determining the citizenship status of a child born in the United States as conceived by the Framers, the Court looked to the law of nations which the Court called the “common-law” to define both a “citizen” and a “natural born citizen.” To determine the citizenship status of all other children, i.e., any other child who was not born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents, the Court informed that the Constitution gave power to Congress to decide and inform on that subject through its Acts and treaties. Given that the Court said that all persons who did not meet the common law definition of a natural born citizen were “aliens or foreigner,” we know that the Court expressed the view that being born in the country to parents who were its citizens were not only sufficient conditions, but also necessary conditions for being both a citizen and a natural born citizen under the common law. Finally, Minor also left open the question of whether there was another class of citizen at birth by birth in the United States to alien parents, called a “citizen of the United States” under the Fourteenth Amendment. It did not have to answer that question because Virginia Minor was born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents and was therefore a natural born citizen.

Sixth, finally, Wong Kim Ark (1898) answered Minor’s question in the affirmative, distinguishing a natural born citizen from a citizen at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment and holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents who were neither foreign diplomats nor military invaders was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court did not hold that that child was a natural born citizen.

Hence, neither a constitutional amendment nor a U.S. Supreme Court decision ever changed the original American national common law definition of a natural born citizen which today is still a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

ajtelles said...

Unity of citizenship ...

Mario, here is a brief letter from John Jay to a person called Del Campo about an Englishman named Mr. Vaughn who wanted to become a U.S. naturalized citizen, and who asked Jay, who was in Madrid, Spain in 17871, prior to the signing of the 1783 Treaty of Paris by John Jay, Benjamin Franklin, and John Adams, to administer the oath of naturalization.

This indicates that in the late 1781, six years before the adoption of the September 17, 1787 U.S. Constitution, the common law understanding of John Jay about the "unity of citizenship and allegiance" was that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

The father was an Englishman, the mother was an American, and their son Mr. Vaughn was considered by Jay to be ONLY an Englishman who did not have dual citizenship. He was an Englishman, the son of an Englishman father, subject to the English monarch, and the son of an American citizen mother.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/index.php?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%3Ftitle=2328&layout=html

JAY TO DEL CAMPO.
Madrid, November 3, 1781.
Sir:
I have received the letter you did me the honour to write on the 2d instant.

As Mr. [John] Vaughan was favored last spring at Aranjuez with a passport from his Excellency the Count de Florida to go to and reside at Toledo, I omitted to enumerate in my last the circumstances requested in your letter.

The gentleman’s father is an Englishman, his mother is an American; he himself was born I think in England; he means to become a citizen of and to settle in one of the United States, and is by profession a merchant. He has been a considerable time in France learning the language and acquainting himself with the commerce of that country. From thence he came last spring to Spain, for the same purposes; he brought with him a warm recommendation from Dr. Franklin; he spent the summer at Toledo learning the Spanish language; he visited Ildefonso while the Court was last there, and he is now desirous of going to Cadiz that he may during the winter form proper commercial connections there, and in the spring embark for North America. He has offered to take an oath of allegiance to the United States before me. I advised him to postpone it until he arrived there, as well because I thought it more proper in itself as because I did not conceive myself authorized to administer it.

This is a short but very candid account of what I know of this gentleman. I may indeed add that in my opinion he possesses a good share of understanding and much useful knowledge. I for my part confide in the sincerity of his professions, and shall accordingly do him good office in America by recommending him to my friends there.

Be pleased to accept my thanks for your polite attention. I have the honour to be, with great consideration and respect,
Your most obedient and most humble servant,

John Jay.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Even in 1781 my new best friend John Jay was affirming that ONLY the citizenship of the father determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

BOTH parents.

The "unity of citizenship and allegiance"—what a 1700s concept that is still applicable to the 2000s.

BOTH parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Parens translates to parents in english and of course the qoute about the natives or natural born citizens Chief Justice Waite used in minor is nowhere to be found in english common law. I am not a expert on the common law like Justice Waite but i do know he used vattel and not the ECL to define the natives (indigenes) or natural born citizens....every single member of congress and any state judge who has presided over the eligibility cases are immoral cowards for ignoring Article 2 and minor

Unknown said...

Dishonorable and illegitimate certainly describes obama and any judges who used the ECL to define a natural born citizen

ajtelles said...

correction...

Mario, John Jay wrote that the Englishman Mr. Vaughn asked Jay to administer "... an oath of allegiance to the United States," not the "oath of naturalization."

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Byron Gene Olson,

If you want your comments to be posted here, keep out your repetitive personal attacks and insults. You have been making the same statements for months after months, adding nothing to them. This is not a blog for you to simply post the same insults over and over again after others post thoughtful comments just so you can pollute the discussion.

Unknown said...

Here's an interesting bit of history ...

"it is enacted, That no Person born out of these Kingdoms, (although he be naturalized or made a Denizen) except such as are born of English Parents, shall be capable to be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parlament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military; or a have any Grant of Lands, Tenements, or Hereditaments from Crown to himself, or to any other or others in Trust for him." Page 80
A New Abridgement of the Law
By Joseph Sayer, Owen Ruffhead
1736

"born of English parents"

ajtelles said...

"unity of citizenship and allegiance...

Mario,

while on a lunch break here in El Paso, Texas, I took a quick look Fogbow where some are mocking your comments and some are offering comments based on their opinions, which is valid, if the opinions are based on historical facts. A quick look is all that's needed since there's not much of substance being written there.

Below are 3 short samples of the shallow depth of commentary expressing opinions in defense of the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth that the Obama birth narrative that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" was ALSO the 1700s common law understanding of POTUS eligibility.

It is also interesting that Obama-birthers NEVER conclude that "two-citizen-parents" was ALSO, if not ONLY, which they could NEVER admit, it was ALSO the 1700s common law understanding of POTUS eligibility.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:48 pm
In a previous comment, brygenon, aka Unknown, aka Unknown #11, wrote:
>> Another of my comments censored by Apuzzo:


Slartibartfast, aka S..., aka Kevin, responded:

>> It's interesting that Mario keeps blocking some of your comments
>> but hasn't stopped any of mine.
>> I guess that means you're doing a better job of debunking his logorrhea...


PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 1:26 pm
in a previous comment, noblepa wrote:
>> Of course, this is an extremely unlikely scenario.
>> Plus, the birthers only raise the issue of eligibility with respect to Obama.
>> I strongly suspect that if Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio or Bobby Jindal make a run,
>> there will be very little birthing about him.

Brygenon, aka Unknown, aka Unknown #11 agreed -
>> Yup.
>> The two-citizen-parent theory
>> had no advocates in our time
>> until a certain hateful faction needed reasons
>> why Barack Obama cannot be President.

>> Now they want to pretend
>> that they are protecting our nation
>> from foreign monarchical powers.
>> No, no, no.
>> Barack Obama isn't royal.
>> He's uppity.

Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2014 7:26 am
Adrianinflorida wrote:

>> Luckily loyalty never makes it into the equation, in practice.
>> You're either natural born or naturalised.
>> President Obama is natural born,
>> whether born in
>> Hawai’i,
>> Vancouver,
>> Kenya or
>> Indonesia.
>> Too bad birthers never got the memo


Sam the Centipede agreed -

[...]

>> As you say though, Mr. Obama was and is a natural born citizen regardless of his place of birth.

>> And place of birth
>> (which has been thoroughly proven to every non-racist's satisfaction)
>> is sufficient.

>> Despite what Idiot Apuzzo, Idiot Farrar, Idiot Nash, Idiot Guthrie say,
>> and it's not as if these idiots can even get their story straight amongst themselves
>> - why do they expect to convince non-idiots?

>> [...]

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

"unity of citizenship and allegiance...

2/

Mario,

As I mentioned in a previous comment here about a previous visit to Fogbow a couple of days ago, there is not much original intent and original genesis substance adduced, defined and defended.

My new best friend John Jay would probably want to ask them why they do not adduce the original words of the original birthers, the original Framers who acutally debated the original words of Article II Section 1 Clause 5?

Why do Obama-birthers NEVER rebut and refute the 1700s common law understanding of the "unity of citizenship and allegiance" that inspired John Jay to underline the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the original intent and original genesis meaning that in 1700s America, the common knowledge, the common law, as mentioned by James Madison in your June 18, 2014 at 9:05 PM post,

>> "The common law is nothing more than the unwritten law, and is left by all the constitutions equally liable to legislative alterations,"

the 1700s common law, the "unwritten law" understanding was that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

To rebut and refute the 1700s common law understanding about the "unity of citizenship and allegiance," the Obama-birthers simply need to adduce a sources, or even just ONE source, who says that John Jay was ONLY implying ONLY "one-citizen-parent" was sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

Or, the Obama-birthers simply need to adduce only ONE source who says that John Jay was implying ALSO "two-citizen-parents" as sufficient for a person to be a "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

ONLY "one-citizen-parent"
or
ALSO "two-citizen-parents"

My historically informed opinion is that my new best friend John Jay was implying ONLY ONE (1) possibility in 1787 when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen in his note on July 25, 2787 to George Washington, ONLY "two-citizen-parent" who were married to each other BEFORE their child is born to them on U.S. soil or jurisdiction.

ONLY "two-citizen-parents"

BOTH parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Since you posted something from the Fogbow that I don't agree with, let me be clear: I believe the President Obama's place of birth is very important, just not in any doubt whatsoever. If he was born overseas, it is not clear if he would have been a citizen at birth (I believe he would have been made one retroactively, but I'm not really sure) and, even if he was (say, if his parent's marriage was legally invalidated due to his father's bigamy), there would be a non-frivolous (although ultimately unsuccessful, in my opinion) case that he (or Rafael Cruz) would not be a natural born citizen. This is all moot, however, since there is no way impeach the facts of President Obama's birth in any US court without credible (and strong) evidence of massive fraud by the State of Hawai'i.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

It is funny to see Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson post at Fogbow comments which I did not allow him to dump on my blog. If you note from the comments (the ones that he has courage enough to re-post there), there is absolutely nothing of any historical or legal substance in them. What you see there is the same old tired personal attacks against me and the incessant reminding of how some lower courts ruled against me. We all know that already, but yet the pathetic Olson just repeats it in one form or another regardless of what anyone says.

Olson's job is not to debate the meaning of a natural born citizen. His job is only to be a heckler for Obama.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

Thanks for the reference to the English law supporting my position! It makes it clear that all of the native born children (regardless of parentage) are eligible to be members of the privy council---i.e. they are natural born subjects.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

I of II

Thank you for sharing with us such a great find. I have the following comments on that letter of John Jay, the father of the natural born citizen clause.

Jay’s letter to De Campo, Confidential Secretary to Florida Blanca at the Spanish Court, was written by Jay on November 3, 1781, before Congress passed its first naturalization act, the Naturalization Act of 1790. Jay’s letter goes to prove two things.

First, the letter confirms that at common law a child born out of the United States (John Vaughan was born in England) to an alien father (British) who married a U.S. citizen mother was neither a natural born citizen nor a citizen of the United States. I assume that Mr. Vaughan’s parents were married from the tone of Jay’s letter. The letter shows that central figures of the Founding era were following the maxim partus sequitur patrem (children follow the condition or citizenship of the “father,” which under the doctrine that wives took on the citizenship of their husbands meant “parents.”) Hence, under the common law, born out of the United States to a citizen mother and an alien father was not sufficient to be accepted as a citizen, let alone a natural born citizen.

As you will recall, Jack Maskell and the Obots contend that for the Framers being born out of the United States to one citizen parent was sufficient to be not only a “citizen of the United States” at birth, but also an Article II natural born citizen for the sole reason that today under current naturalization Acts of Congress that child is considered a born citizen. But here Jay informs that under common law, at the time of the Founding such children were not even “citizens of the United States,” let alone natural born citizens. According to Jay, Mr. Vaughan was not only not a natural born citizen. He was also not a citizen at all and in need of naturalization after his birth. That is important information for those of us today who are looking to understand how the Framers defined a natural born citizen at the time they included the clause into the Constitution.

Congress abrogated the common law when it created more citizens of the United States through is naturalization acts. Under the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, that same child, born in England to an English father who married an American mother was also not a citizen of the United States, for the father and therefore both parents had to be U.S. citizens for the child to be a citizen of the United States. Also, the current naturalization acts upon which Maskell and the Obots rely (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401 to 1409) and which did not exist at the time the Constitution was adopted and ratified provide textually that children who are born out of the United States to one or two U.S. citizen parents are “citizen of the United States” at birth. They do not state that they are “natural born citizens.” Hence, Jack Maskell and the Obots are wrong on all fronts and Senator Ted Cruz is not a natural born citizen.

Second, Jay’s letter is further evidence that the Framers required both parents to be citizens before a child could be accepted as a U.S. citizen. Not being born to U.S. citizen parents is probably the reason that Jay disqualified Mr. Vaughan as a citizen of the United States and in need of naturalization. With the common law requiring birth in the country, the other reason would have been that he was not born in the United States. Given his close contacts with various Founders and Framers who ended up serving in the First Congress, Jay could have anticipated how Congress was going to treat children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents. The First Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1790 provided that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen “parents” “shall be considered as natural born citizens,” which the Third Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1790 changed to “shall be considered as citizens

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

of the United States.” But Jay made no mention of such a possible change to the common law in his letter. Jay did not even given it a thought given that Vaughan was born to an alien father which also made his mother an alien. Given that Jay made no mention of Vaughan’s American mother as having any controlling effect or whether Vaughan had one or two U.S. citizen parents, we can see that early Congress required that both parents had to be citizens, and not just one. If both parents of a child born out of the United States had to be citizens for the child to be born a “citizen of the United States,” then, given that early Congress made no distinction between a child born in or out of the United States when the child was born to alien parents, surely they also had to be both citizens for that child to be born a natural born citizen. Jay’s letter goes to prove that being born to one citizen parent, unless it was the father who was a citizen and in which case upon marrying an alien woman also made her a U.S. citizen, was not accepted as the equivalent of born to “citizen parents.” On the other hand, born to a citizen father and an alien mother, given that the mother took on the citizenship of the husband, was tantamount to being born to citizen parents.

Again, the U.S. Supreme Court whenever it has defined a natural born citizen has always stated that the child be born to citizens “parents” (plural) at the time of birth. Both Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) only foresaw scenarios in which both parents were either citizens or aliens. Prior to the Cable Act of 1922, parents were both citizens by both spouses being citizens prior to marriage or an alien woman marrying a U.S. citizen husband. After the Cable Act, alien women no longer became U.S. citizens upon marriage to a U.S. citizen husband. Rather, such alien adult women had to naturalize on their own prior to or after the marriage in order to be a U.S. citizen at the time of her child’s birth. But while the Cable Act allowed women spouses to have their own citizenship, surely the Act did not nor could it constitutionally create a new definition of Article II’s natural born citizen clause, which had always required that both of a child’s parents be citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

So, only a child born or reputed born in the United States to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth is a natural born citizen. Regarding the child’s parents, the controlling point is not how the parents of a child both became U.S. citizens prior to the child’s birth, but rather, that they were both U.S. citizens prior to the birth. Philosophically and legally, there could not be any dual allegiance at birth for the Founders. In fact, the Founders viewed dual allegiance as a monstrosity. House Report No. 784, dated June 22, 1874, stated: “The United States have not recognized a ‘double allegiance.’ By our law a citizen is bound to be ‘true and faithful’ alone to our government.” The citizen “parents” requirement is needed to cut off any jus sanguinis allegiance claims and the birth in the United States or its equivalent requirement is needed to cut off any jus soli allegiance claims over the child by any foreign power. These unified birth circumstances, cutting of any claims of allegiance by any foreign nation through either jus sanguinis or jus soli, are required in order to achieve unity of citizenship and allegiance of the child at the time of the child’s birth. It is only with such unity of citizenship in and allegiance to the United States that a person is born with sole and absolute allegiance to the United States and not subject to any foreign power, a quality that the Framers required of future Presidents and Commanders in Chief of the Military in order to keep foreign and monarchical influence out of those singular and all-powerful offices.

ajtelles said...

Clarity and the "unity of citizenship and allegiance"...

ON June 19, 2014 at 6:51 PM, Slartibartfast, aka S..., aka Kevin, wrote -

>> Art,
>> Since you posted something from the Fogbow
>> that I don't agree with,


S..., what is the exact quote that was posted that you don't agree with?


>> let me be clear:
>> I believe the President Obama's place of birth is very important,
>> just not in any doubt whatsoever.

>> If he was born overseas,
>> it is not clear
>> if he would have been a citizen at birth

>> (I believe he would have been made one retroactively,
>> but I'm not really sure)


S..., is there an Act of Congress that you can adduce to clarify "retroactively" a "citizen at birth?"


>> and, even if he was
>> (say, if his parent's marriage
>> was legally invalidated due to his father's bigamy),


S..., is there an Act of Congress that you can adduce to clarify "invalidated" and STILL result in the Article II Section 1 Clause 5 "unity of citizenship and allegiance" with a "natural born Citizen" with TWO parents?


>> there would be a non-frivolous
>> (although ultimately unsuccessful, in my opinion)
>> case that he
>> (or Rafael Cruz)
>> would not be a natural born citizen.

S..., is there an Act of Congress that you can adduce to clarify a "case" that would affirm that BHObama, or my favorite Senator, Texas Senator Ted Cruz, is a "natural born Citizen" contrary to the common law understanding of the "unity of citizenship and allegiance" which is that the citizenship of the father determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child, and so the 1700s understanding of the citizenship of the husband determining the citizenship of the wife can be turned up side down and in the 2000s it is now the citizenship of the mother alone that can determine the citizenship of the child?

ajtelles said...

Clarity and the "unity of citizenship and allegiance"...

2/

S..., were BOTH the citizenship of the husband being determinative AND the citizenship of the wife being determinative implicit in the common law understanding of the "unity of citizenship and allegiance" in 1700s America?

S..., if ONLY the citizenship of the husband was determinative in 1700s America, other than Article II Section 1 Clause 5, can you adduce an Act of Congress or an Amendment or a ScotUS decision which speaks to the question of who determines the citizenship of the child, ONLY the father, ONLY the mother, ONLY BOTH parents?

BOTH parents is my Article II choice 'cause this are NO other sources to adduce.

S..., other than the 1787 Article II Section 1 Clause 5 and the word "born" in "natural born Citizen," which implies birth ONLY on U.S. soil [jurisdiction was applied after 1787], AND also ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE their child is born, can you adduce ANY amendment, act or court decision which explicitly OR implicitly declares that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" OR ALSO "two-citizen-parents" were implicit in the word "born" when my new best friend original birther John Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his July 25, 1787 note to original birther George Washington?

S..., can defenders of the Obama birth narrative adduce ANY sources to show, explicitly OR implicitly that, because the father and the mother had a physical union and produced a child, so natural birth to ONLY "one-citizen-parent" is the NEW definition of a "natural born Citizen?"]


>> This is all moot, however,
>> since there is no way impeach the facts of President Obama's birth
>> in any US court
>> without credible (and strong) evidence
>> of massive fraud by the State of Hawai'i."


[S..., the last part of your paragraph will be revealed in the future history books, since the current Obama-birther defenders of the Obama birth narrative have a political vested interest in maintaining the fraud of birth and eligibility of BHobama because they definitely do NOT have historical reality such as the common law "unity of citizenship and allegiance" on their side of the birth narrative.]


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

Thanks for the reference to the English law supporting my position! It makes it clear that all of the native born children (regardless of parentage) are eligible to be members of the privy council---i.e. they are natural born subjects.
June 19, 2014 at 7:43 PM

-------------------------

Interesting leap.
How did you come to that conclusion?

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose quoted: "it is enacted, That no Person born out of these Kingdoms, ... except such as are born of English Parents, shall be capable to be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parlament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military;..." Page 80

"born of English parents" meant being an actual natural subject and not a fiction-of-law natural subject.
The security aspect of British nationality law was very much in the thoughts of the framer when determining the rules for qualification for Congress and the presidency.
The rejected the limitation for Congress since America was the land of immigrants, but retained the limitation for the Commander-in-Chief position.

Art, there is a lot going on at Fogbow but it's going on in FEMA Camp 7 1/2 (their limited-access sub-basement) which contains the thread they produced from the reaction to my appearance there for the 1st time bringing up my exposition on Obama's birth in Vancouver. That was like kicking a hornet's nest, and the kicking is off the charts.
But I've used facts and the truth to correct their delusional ideas which they can't stand nor accept.

It isn't even visible on the site since you have to be a registered and accepted obot member or else visitors might see some facts that they don't want them to know.

But I'll be posting the effluent of our war on my blog tonight, probably. Title: Frying Obama Fantasies at the Fogbow.

Slarti wrote: "there is no way to impeach the facts of President Obama's birth in any US court without credible (and strong) evidence of massive fraud by the State of Hawaii."

What are you, an idiot? "massive"??? How about simply one or two moles or Obama acolytes riding the socialist train with him?

And how exactly does a "State" commit fraud? Does it come to life like Pinocchio? Here I though only people could commit fraud.

Anonymous said...

Slarti wondered: " I believe that President Obama's place of birth is very important,... If he was born overseas, it is not clear if he would have been a citizen at birth..."

He would have inherited at birth his mother's American nationality (just as with a father) if she had been about 4 months older.

He then would be a citizen via a natural connection to a citizen mother, but not a natural citizen without a citizen father.

He would have been a citizen via naturalization statute under Congressional authority.

The natural right of birthright national membership only accompanies the child of American parents.
With one foreign parent, the right does not exist because it is based on natural principle and the principle's requirement would not have been met.

Membership in a species or other natural group cannot be obtained if one parent is not a member, but is of a different species. That is so unnatural that is violates the fundamental laws of nature and produces no off-spring whatsoever.

That's just as in human society, -parents' of mixed nationality cannot produced a newborn natural member of either nation. They are all statutory citizens.

That is the unwritten natural law undergirding the fundamental operations of citizenship acquisition.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

There is no debate regarding the meaning of natural born citizen---it is settled law. You can no longer attempt to litigate the eligibility of President Obama (he is no longer eligible to run for POTUS and it is too late to file a case regarding the 2012 election.

If you truly cared about establishing your definition of "natural born" as the Constitutionally correct one, you would be preparing to challenge the eligibility of Piyush Jindal or Marco Rubio on the ballot of state Republican primaries in 2016 (Rafael Cruz can't get you the precedent you'd like regarding President Obama). This is the only recourse you have if you care about trying to get an answer from the SCOTUS (even if that answer is cert being denied on a case which puts the issue properly before the court).

The lack of any effort to do so is extremely strong evidence of birther double standards.

Anonymous said...

Here's a shocking hypothetical scenario: in 1922 the Cable Act was passed to restore the American citizenship rights of women who married or would marry foreigners.

Due to the Naturalization Act of 1907, American women lost their citizenship when marrying a man from a foreign country with which the U.S. had an agreement for such women.
That ceased with the Cable Act and they no longer lost their citizenship. A surprising turn of events could have occurred at that juncture in time.

Just before it, if a foreign woman married an American, she herself automatically became an American as well, via marriage naturalization. Thus both parents were American and could produce a child who was a natural born citizen and eligible to be President.

Just after the Act, the foreign bride would not become an American and would have to naturalize in order to become a citizen.

Suppose they had a child. He would be part American and part alien, and thus not a natural born citizen. He would be a statutory dual citizen and thus ineligible to be President. Same circumstance but different laws.

A foreign bride who married her groom a day before the Cable Act went into effect became an American while one who married her American groom the day after would have remained an alien.

The child of one couple could be President while the child of the other could be everything but.

The door shut on a specific day at a specific hour. After that, everything changed for the foreign bride and their eventual child, -but not really since almost no one ever becomes President. The odds are horrendous. "All of the stars have to align".
Would that be like hitting four hole-in-one shots in a row, or greater?

ajtelles said...

Implication and Nuance about John Jay...

Mario,

When I am reading a multi-thought exposition, I learn by opening up the sections that jump out at me and say, Art, listen up, read this again, so I opened up 2 paragraphs that you posted on June 19, 2014 at 8:24 PM.

I opened them up, not only for myself but also for inquisitive and not vindictive Obama-birthers who want to become better informed about the original intent and the original genesis meaning implicit in the 1700s common law understanding that ONLY the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

The "unity of citizenship and allegiance", your phrase that I have commandeered for teaching purposes, and the 1700 historical reality is informative and instructive to dispess the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth of the 2000s Obama birth narrative discussion that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" is sufficient to make a persona "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS.

Either ONLY "one-citizen-parent" was implied by John Jay or ONLY "two-citizen-parents" was Implied by John Jay.

BOTH "citizen" parents is my choice.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

Implication and Nuance about John Jay...

2/

paragraph 5
Congress abrogated the common law
when it created more citizens of the United States through is naturalization acts.

Under the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855,
that same child,
born in England to an English father
who married an American mother
was also not a citizen of the United States,
for the father and therefore both parents
had to be U.S. citizens for the child to be a citizen of the United States.

Paragraph 6
Second, Jay’s letter is further evidence that
the Framers required both parents to be citizens
before a child could be accepted as a U.S. citizen.
[...]
The First Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1790
provided that children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen “parents”
“shall be considered as natural born citizens,”
which the Third Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1790
changed to “shall be considered as citizens of the United States.”

But Jay made no mention of such a possible change to the common law in his letter.
Jay did not even given it a thought
given that Vaughan was born to an alien father
which also made his mother an alien.

Given that Jay made no mention of Vaughan’s American mother
as having any controlling effect
or whether Vaughan had one or two U.S. citizen parents,
we can see that early Congress
required that both parents had to be citizens,
and not just one.

If both parents
of a child born
out of the United States
had to be citizens
for the child to be born a “citizen of the United States,”
then, given that early Congress made no distinction
between a child born in or out of the United States
when the child was born to alien parents,
surely they also had to be both citizens
for that child to be born a natural born citizen.

Jay’s letter goes to prove that
being born to one citizen parent,
unless it was the father who was a citizen
and in which case upon marrying an alien woman
also made her a U.S. citizen,
was not accepted as the equivalent of born to “citizen parents.”

[>> "... being born to one citizen parent [the mother in the 1700s]
>> was not accepted as the equivalent of born to 'citizen parents.' "]


On the other hand,
born to a citizen father and an alien mother,
given that the mother took on the citizenship of the husband,
was tantamount to being born to citizen parents.

["... tantamount..."
= "IF" married to each other BEFORE thier child is born on U.S. soil in 1787
(before and until U.S. jurisdictions was defined later)
= a U.S. "natural born Citizen" as implied by my new best friend original birther John Jay when he underlined the worrd "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to original birther George Washington. ]


BOTH parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

oops...

In the 3rd paragraph

>> The "unity of citizenship and allegiance",
>> your phrase that I have commandeered for teaching purposes,
>> and the 1700 historical reality is informative and instructive to
>> dispess the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth ... .

"... dispess" should be "dispel" = to rid one's mind of = "I managed to dispel my doubts" about the 2000s myth.

Wow, that was a serendipitous error that allowed pertinent clarification.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "The citizen “parents” requirement is needed to cut off any jus sanguinis allegiance claims and the birth in the United States or its equivalent requirement is needed to cut off any jus soli allegiance claims over the child by any foreign power."

I'll now address brick-wall Mario.
That is as wrong as wrong can be. Why? Because the issue was one of national security NOT FOREIGN SOVEREIGNTY!

THE UNITED STATES did not give a damn about foreign sovereignty otherwise there would never have been a revolution since the colonies would have continued to respect the sovereignty of the Crown of Britain. THEY RESPECTED IT NOT AT ALL. THEY HATED IT!

You resort to using the term allegiance claims (by foreign governments for which Americans gave no respect, -or they would have all still been British. The king had a major allegiance claim on all of them and they told him to go to Hell!.

So I suggest you come up with a better doctrine than that.

Foreign parents brought to an American family foreign alienage due to foreign roots, and connections. Not to forget possible retained foreign loyalty.

Such foreign influence by parents or "a" parent was the entire issue and you know that backward and forward.
So this side hypothesis is totally incompatible with that truth. You need to rethink it and revise it.

"...any allegiance claims by any foreign nation through either jus sanguinis or jus soli,..."

" It is only with such unity of citizenship in and allegiance to the United States that a person is born with sole and absolute allegiance to the United States and not subject to any foreign power,"

Ridiculous! No child ever born was born with what you call allegiance. You don't explain it because it is unexplainable.

Then you toss in like an afterthought: "and not subject to any foreign power," when THAT is the whole ball of wax!!!

You will never be able to explain how an American father (and mother) are subject to a foreign power merely by being on foreign soil. They remain subject to their own government and must obey its laws and orders.

And a baby born to them is just as subject to American authority and not foreign, free of any "allegiance claims over the child by any foreign power."

It is the retained sovereign right of all American parents to pass their national membership to their own children born anywhere in the world. Same with the British who have followed our lead.

Anonymous said...

Slarti barfed: "The lack of any effort to do so is extremely strong evidence of birther double standards."

Oh No!!! We are all such terrible hypocrites! We must immediately abandon ALL efforts to reveal the truth to an ignorant nation!

Otherwise, how will poor Slarti ever accomplish his prime directive of screwing up America with his fake President and his Marxist agenda???

Let's all ACCEPT Barry and just move along to our homes. After all, Slarti assures us that there is nothing to see here.
Why should we not simply believe the nice honest man? He would never lie to us nor try to protect criminal Barry's 6 O'clock. That is unthinkable!

But like a bad fart, you don't want to believe that you are smelling what you're smelling, but the damn thing just won't go away!!! Just like BAIR-ek o-BAM-ah. Pee-u, he sure stinks!

Unknown said...

So John Vaughn was a englishman because his father was a englishman, who knew? But he wanted to become a us citizen even though his mother was a us citizen but back then the fathers citizenship is the only one that mattered. Good find art and yes the definition of a natural born citizen is settled law obama weasels

Carlyle said...

Slartibartfast said...

… challenge the eligibility of Piyush Jindal or Marco Rubio on the ballot of state Republican primaries in 2016.

The lack of any effort to do so is extremely strong evidence of birther double standards.

June 19, 2014 at 9:28 PM


Actually, I agree with this much. I believe I was the first to point this out on this blog. Whatever it is we believe about NBC, we must be universal in it's application. Otherwise we leave ourselves wide open to charges of hypocrisy, or even racism.

I also must caution against circular reasoning that it is too easy to fall into. Some of us believe that The One is the worst president ever and actually anti-American. But we must avoid the invalid logic of "he is so awful, he must therefore be illegal".

As a counter example, I believe that Ted Cruz has the wherewhithal to be the best president ever. But alas, he is not NBC. We must neither let our fondness for him to allow us to look the other way or sweep under the rug his ineligibility.

Carlyle said...

I get so frustrated with the logic chopping and rationalization (i.e. justification after the fact) on this blog.

Most all of that is irrelevant. What we need to do is understand the complex world situation in the late 18th century and get inside the heads of the founders.

The first OBVIOUS and INCONTROVERTIBLE fact is that the NBC clause was meant to be EXCLUSIVE. This was 200 years before modern concepts of non-discrimination and multi-culti.

I just read in a legitimate and reliable history that in pre-revolution France, not only were officers in the military required to be Aristocrats, but for four generations back.

This obviously does not directly map into any situation or definition in the USA but it goes to show the spirit of the times.

Without resort to any legal treatise whatsoever - and just relying on an understanding of the times - it cannot be other than the fact that NBC must include both birth within country and citizenship of the father.

In my view, legal arguments become much more important when trying to suss out if the definition has ever been officially changed.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

The U.S. respects the reasonable allegiance claims of sovereign foreign nations just like the U.S. expects those foreign nations to respect the reasonable allegiance claims of the sovereign United States.

In the eyes of the United States, a child born in a foreign nation’s territory that follows jus soli is as much a citizen of the foreign nation as a child born in the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment.

The moment a child is born in a foreign territory, the jurisdiction of that nation attaches to that child which means that the nation then has the full power and authority to prescribe rules over that child.

Your attitude that the U.S. can do whatever it wants in the world without respecting the valid and reasonable reciprocal claims made by other nations is plain silly.

Also, you insist that babies do not have allegiance. Unfortunately for you, the Framers did not get your baby memo when they required that future Presidents and Commanders be natural born citizens.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Carlyle,

You said:

“Without resort to any legal treatise whatsoever - and just relying on an understanding of the times - it cannot be other than the fact that NBC must include both birth within country and citizenship of the father.”

=====

Do you maintain that birth in the United States to one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a natural born citizen? Please respond by saying yes or no, and then explain your answer.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/h2ooflife/Adrien Nash,

I of II

Wilted Rose produced this English naturalization statute:

"it is enacted, That no Person born out of these Kingdoms, (although he be naturalized or made a Denizen) except such as are born of English Parents, shall be capable to be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parliament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military; or a have any Grant of Lands, Tenements, or Hereditaments from Crown to himself, or to any other or others in Trust for him."

Joseph Sayer and Owen Ruffhead, A New Abridgement of the Law 80 (1736)

In your comment, you quoted the statute thus: "it is enacted, That no Person born out of these Kingdoms, ... except such as are born of English Parents, shall be capable to be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parliament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military.”

Let us examined this statute and discovery why you left parts out if out in your quote. Under the statute, persons born out of the Kingdom, even to English parents, were “naturalized or made a Denizen.” If they were born to English parents, they were still “naturalized or made Denizens,” but they could “be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parliament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military; or a have any Grant of Lands, Tenements, or Hereditaments from Crown to himself, or to any other or others in Trust for him." So being born of English parents did not mean that they were not naturalized or made denizens. Rather, it only meant that even though naturalized or made a denizen they could hold a public office in England.

Hence, any person born out of the Kingdom, even if born to English parents, could not be a natural born citizens, for the statute expressly stated that they were “naturalized or made a Denizen.” In England, under this statute children born out of the Kingdom to English parents, while still considered naturalized or made denizens, were by the statute allowed to hold a public office. In our Constitution, the Framers simply said that any “citizen of the United States” for at least 7 or 9 years, respectively, could be a Representative or Senator. So the Framers also allowed naturalized citizens to be members of Congress without requiring that they have been born to U.S. citizen parents. But with the natural born citizen clause, which applied only to the President, the Framers forbade any person not a natural born citizen from being President. This included prohibiting any citizen of the United States naturalized at birth or after birth and who was therefore not a natural born citizen because he or she did not meet the American common law definition of that clause. (Minor v. Happersett (1875) told us what that American common law definition was, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.)

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Now we can understand why you, when quoting the statute quoted thus: "it is enacted, That no Person born out of these Kingdoms, ... except such as are born of English Parents, shall be capable to be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parliament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military.” Notice how you left out, “(although he be naturalized or made a Denizen).” The language that you conveniently omitted proves that Parliament considered those children born out of the Kingdom to be naturalized or denizens, even if they were born to English parents. If the Framers followed that same scheme, they too would have considered children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents to be naturalized and therefore not natural born citizens. In fact, the scheme that the Framers and our early Congress adopted was just that, i.e., citizens of the United States at birth, but not natural born citizens.

You refuse to admit that any child born out of the United States who is made a “citizen of the United States” at birth is done so by Congress’s naturalization powers and is therefore naturalized at birth. You figured you would help yourself by cutting out that part of the English naturalization statute which proves that I am correct that at best those children are naturalized at birth and not natural born citizens. (The other persons born out of the United States and made by Congress citizens of the United States are so made after birth.)

Mr. Nash, you are a naughty fellow.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

Wilted Rose produced this English naturalization statute:

"it is enacted, That no Person born out of these Kingdoms, (although he be naturalized or made a Denizen) except such as are born of English Parents, shall be capable to be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parliament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military; or a have any Grant of Lands, Tenements, or Hereditaments from Crown to himself, or to any other or others in Trust for him."

Joseph Sayer and Owen Ruffhead, A New Abridgement of the Law 80 (1736)

Under the statute, persons born out of the Kingdom, even to English parents, were “naturalized or made a Denizen.” If they were born to English parents, they were still “naturalized or made Denizens,” but they could “be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parliament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military; or a have any Grant of Lands, Tenements, or Hereditaments from Crown to himself, or to any other or others in Trust for him." So being born of English parents did not mean that they were not naturalized or made denizens. Rather, it only meant that even though naturalized or made a denizen they could hold a public office in England.

Hence, any person born out of the Kingdom, even if born to English parents, could not be a natural born citizens, for the statute expressly stated that they were “naturalized or made a Denizen.” In England, under this statute children born out of the Kingdom to English parents, while still considered naturalized or made denizens, were by the statute allowed to hold a public office. In our Constitution, the Framers simply said that any “citizen of the United States” for at least 7 or 9 years, respectively, could be a Representative or Senator. So the Framers also allowed naturalized citizens to be members of Congress without requiring that they have been born to U.S. citizen parents. But with the natural born citizen clause, which applied only to the President, the Framers forbade any person not a natural born citizen from being President. This included prohibiting any citizen of the United States naturalized at birth or after birth and who was therefore not a natural born citizen because he or she did not meet the American common law definition of that clause. (Minor v. Happersett (1875) told us what that American common law definition was, i.e., a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.)

Now we can understand why Mr. Nash, when quoting the statute quoted thus: "it is enacted, That no Person born out of these Kingdoms, ... except such as are born of English Parents, shall be capable to be of Privy Council, or a Member of either House of Parliament, or to enjoy any Office or Place of Trust, either Civil or Military.” Notice how he left out, “(although he be naturalized or made a Denizen).” The language that he conveniently omitted proves that Parliament considered those children born out of the Kingdom to be naturalized or denizens, even if they were born to English parents. If the Framers followed that same scheme, they too would have considered children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents to be naturalized and therefore not natural born citizens. In fact, the scheme that the Framers and our early Congress adopted was just that, i.e., citizens of the United States at birth, but not natural born citizens.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

You and Mr. Nash refuse to admit that any child born out of the United States who is made a “citizen of the United States” at birth is done so by Congress’s naturalization powers and is therefore naturalized at birth. Mr. Nash figured he would help himself by cutting out that part of the English naturalization statute which proves that I am correct that at best those children are naturalized at birth and not natural born citizens. (The other persons born out of the United States and made by Congress citizens of the United States are so made after birth.)

You said to Wilted Rose:

“Thanks for the reference to the English law supporting my position! It makes it clear that all of the native born children (regardless of parentage) are eligible to be members of the privy council---i.e. they are natural born subjects.”

=====

But the statute only addressed children born out of the Kingdom. How do you make from the statue alone the quantum leap to children born in the Kingdom and as to what their subject status was?

Finally, you said: “There is no debate regarding the meaning of natural born citizen---it is settled law.”

=====

If it is settled law as you state, then that law was settled by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) when it said:

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875).

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Since, as anyone who has ever passed a civics class should know, a split decision from the SCOTUS carries no less legal weight, one can only assume that incessantly mentioning that a particular decision (and one on voting rights rather than citizenship, at that) was unanimous it intended to distract from the lack of actual merit in an argument.

Just sayin'.

As for children born citizens overseas, the First Congress explicitly called them natural born and the SCOTUS ruled that later naturalization acts continued this practice implicitly. Therefore, until a court rules that such citizens are not natural born (Minor, I would note, does not rule that anyone is not natural born---such a ruling would inescapably be dicta in any case---only that certain persons are natural born), I will continue to believe that, "naturalized at birth" or not, such people are natural born citizens in the sense of Article II. In any case, it does not apply to President Obama and that's all you really care about, right?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I can tell when you have no response to my argument. You simply editorialize on points that have nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the argument.

It is a fact that the Minor decision was decided unanimously. If that upsets you, that is your problem.

It is also a fact that Minor explained:

"The Constitution does not in words say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 167-68 (1875).

Can you read? The Court said that at common law children who were born in a country to parents who were its citizens were natives or natural born citizens. By the Court’s statement as to who were the natives or natural born citizens, it also explained that children who were not born in the country to parents who were citizens were “aliens or foreigners.” If a child was an alien or foreigner at common law, but then made a “citizen of the United States” after birth or even at birth later under a naturalization Act of Congress or even more later under the Fourteenth Amendment, such naturalization and amendment did not convert that child into a natural born citizen. If that were the case, the natural born citizen clause would be rendered meaningless through subsequent naturalization Acts of Congress which are not constitutional amendments or through the Fourteenth Amendment which amendment neither repealed nor amendment the clause.

You might delude yourself all you want about all that. But it is tough luck for you that you cannot change it.

Also, playing ignorant with what Minor held regarding citizenship can get you by for now with some of the people. But your feigned ignorance does not change reality which is that Barack Obama, not being an Article II natural born citizen, is not constitutionally eligible for the Office of President.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...
"As for children born citizens overseas, the First Congress explicitly called them natural born and the SCOTUS ruled that later naturalization acts continued this practice implicitly. "


"shall be considered as natural born Citizens" is not explicit at all.

You know as well as I do that "shall be considered as" is a term meaning "it isn't in reality, but we will pretend it is for this purpose"

As an example, printing an amendment to a bill in the congressional record is "considered as" having been read in session. It hasn't really been read in session, but it is "considered as" having been read.

Here is another good example:
"All geographical names shall be considered as one word; for example, "City and County of San Francisco" shall be counted as one word."

If the first Congress had said "...or out of the limits of the United States, are natural born Citizens:"
that would have been explicitly calling them natural born. Since they were "considered as" natural born, that means that they were not.

Oh, also ...
"and the SCOTUS ruled that later naturalization acts continued this practice implicitly."
Where did they do that?
In which case?

Anonymous said...

Mario asked Slarti: "But the statute only addressed children born out of the Kingdom. How do you make from the statue alone the quantum leap to children born in the Kingdom and as to what their subject status was?

Because the statute did NOT address only children born out of the Kingdom. It addressed all persons who were banned from certain privileges. It does not say that only those born out of the Kingdom are banned. It says in effect "ALL ARE BANNED" even though... EXCEPT those..."
Just read the rest of the statute and I'm pretty darn sure that there will be no mention of any native-born person. That paragraph covered ALL persons banned.

Your presumptuous comprehension of what that paragraph means is abominable from the standpoint of logic. What it means is this:

"it is enacted, "That no Person shall be capable to be of Privy Council, (although he be naturalized or made a Denizen) if born out of these Kingdoms, -except such as are born of English Parents,"

He's an alternative that means the same thing:
"it is enacted, That only such as are born of English Parents shall be capable to be of Privy Council; -and no persons born out of these Kingdoms, (although he be naturalized or made a Denizen) shall be capable. Or...

"it is enacted, That except such as are born of English Parents, no Person born out of these Kingdoms, (although he be naturalized or made a Denizen) shall be capable to be of Privy Council,

Only the last one could have been employed because only it had Privy Council at the end, making it capable of being followed by the seven "or"s

There is not the slightest scintilla of hint that natural born children of Englishmen could be or were made natural by English law (natural-ized) when they were born being natural Englishmen.

All that the statutes did was preserve and announce their natural born nature and birthright.
They did not make it so. Nature did. No law can make a natural citizen. Every child can figure that out. Why can't you?

Can a law make someone's child their natural child? How???

You proclaim that Congress has a similar authority. Please explain that authority, what its source is and what its constitutional origin is.

You can't and so you won't. Instead you simply mindless declare it to be so with no support of any sort. Legal or logical.

That is too pathetic to consider an adult approach to debate. "It is so because I declare it." How royal!

You mindlessly declared that English children born abroad were naturalized, "see, it is so" with not one speck of logic to support that claim other than the conviction in your own imagination. I CAN'T DEBATE WITH YOUR IMAGINATION!

Please explain how the nature of being a natural Englishmen does not and never did exist. Explain how birth location is related to NATURE. Thanks... I won't hold my breath or else I'll perish.

MichaelN said...

What do you make of this Kev?

From the opinion in the Wong Kim Ark case......

"The child born of alien parents in the United States is held to be a citizen thereof, and to be subject to duties with regard to this country which do not attach to the father.

The same principle on which such children are held by us to be citizens of the United States, and to be subject to duties to this country, applies to the children of American fathers born without the jurisdiction of the United States, and entitles the country within whose jurisdiction they are born to claim them as citizen and to subject them to duties to it.

Such children are born to a double character: the citizenship of the father is that of the child so far as the laws of the country of which the father is a citizen are concerned, and within the jurisdiction of that country; but the child, from the circumstances of his birth, may acquire rights and owes another fealty besides that which attaches to the father.

Opinions of the Executive Departments on Expatriation, Naturalization and Allegiance (1873) 17, 18; U.S. Foreign Relations, 1873-74, pp. 1191, 1192."

MichaelN said...

What do you make of this Kev?

From the opinion in the Wong Kim Ark case......

"The child born of alien parents in the United States is held to be a citizen thereof, and to be subject to duties with regard to this country which do not attach to the father.

The same principle on which such children are held by us to be citizens of the United States, and to be subject to duties to this country, applies to the children of American fathers born without the jurisdiction of the United States, and entitles the country within whose jurisdiction they are born to claim them as citizen and to subject them to duties to it.

Such children are born to a double character: the citizenship of the father is that of the child so far as the laws of the country of which the father is a citizen are concerned, and within the jurisdiction of that country; but the child, from the circumstances of his birth, may acquire rights and owes another fealty besides that which attaches to the father.

Opinions of the Executive Departments on Expatriation, Naturalization and Allegiance (1873) 17, 18; U.S. Foreign Relations, 1873-74, pp. 1191, 1192."

Anonymous said...

Slarti wrote: "I will continue to believe that, "naturalized at birth" or not, such people are natural born citizens in the sense of Article II."

Hey, why not grow a spine? It is not a matter of anyone's "belief". IT IS A NATURAL FACT!

Understand this; the Congress that declared all children of American fathers to be natural born citizens was also the same Congress that wrote and passed the BILL OF RIGHTS! RIGHTS!!!

Including the RIGHT to pass a husband / father's nationality to his ENTIRE FAMILY regardless of where they exited the womb, -that means both wife and children!!!

Wife...foreign born... she's an American by the blood of her husband.
Children... foreign born... they're American by the blood of their father. NOT BY STATUTE. BY BLOOD. Statutes defend & declare one's Blood Right.

That right does not end at the water's edge! Only traitors to American liberty continue to proclaim that it does. TRAITORS!

(have I made my point yet?)

"In any case, it does not apply to President Obama and that's all you really care about, right?"

If only that were true, but he cares about protecting his citizenship dogma just as much if not more. Kind of just like you who cares more about protecting your liege than finding and acknowledging the TRUTH.

Both of you are deniers of obvious reality. Mario even claimed of Minor: "it also explained that children who were not born in the country to parents who were citizens were “aliens or foreigners.”

But... it did NOT distinguish ONLY natives from aliens or foreigners.

Mario falsely pretends that it does when no one else can find the word "only".

There is a short-circuit of his logic center. How can one debate with someone who can't get simple statements correct?

He has a horrible reputation for such false logic. He just makes-up facts as he wishes them to be.

Also, there was ZERO mention of children who were not born in the country. NONE! Yet he claims there was???

His imagination is the tail that wags the dog!

Anonymous said...

Wilted Rose wrote: "If the first Congress had said "...or out of the limits of the United States, are natural born Citizens..."
that would have been explicitly calling them natural born. Since they were "considered as" natural born, that means that they were not.
"Considered as is the same terminology as applied to all others who are deemed to be Americans, -the naturalized and their children. You cannot claim that they are fake American citizens who we simply pretend are citizens. ALL CITIZENS ARE EQUALLY CITIZENS!

Your modern examples are totally irrelevant to what was intended and meant over two hundred years ago, in a different world.

Your mind makes a false assumption about the nature and purpose of the language. If it had said "are", who would it have been saying it to??? To you? To modern America? To the public at large?
NO!! It was not addressed to any but the executive branch employees of the national and state governments involved in national elections including the presidency.

The language was aimed specifically at them because so many of the people were still indoctrinated with the British system of nationality assignment which the founders had thrown out.
They included men of renown, "legal authorities" educated and steeped in British common law, as well as State officials who had no clue as to the new paradigm of Natural Law and Natural Rights adopted by the leadership of the nation, based on the principle of natural membership.

Such neo-nativist imperialists are still with us today. Mario is one.

The wording of the act was specifically chosen to ensure that the natural birthright of all American sons, regardless of birth place, would be protected and not abrogated by State election officials.

It was written for all American founders serving as American Ambassadors or merchants overseas so their sons would not be foolishly deemed to be aliens and barred from full citizenship rights.

Their sons SHALL BE(!!!) considered, by you, mr. ignorant State official, as being a natural born citizen and a legitimate candidate for President.

You SHALL NOT! bar such a person from your State ballot because of your ignorance. He has rights, and they are inherited, and they are unalienable. Borders do NOT trump blood.
No foreign sovereign has any claim on him nor does any alienage attach to Americans' sons.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/h2ooflife/Adrien Nash,

Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained:

“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Minor, at 167.

Please explain what the Court meant when it said that under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution, “who shall be natural-born citizens” were all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens and that these natural-born citizens were “distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Anonymous said...

MichaelN; the quotes from the Executive Departments (1873) should make every American puke.

"The child born of alien parents in the United States is held to be a citizen thereof, and to be subject to duties with regard to this country which do not attach to the father."

No child ever born in the history of the modern Western World was EVER subject to government duties. They were and are subject solely to their parents. The statement only becomes true at adulthood, -which he failed to even mention.

"The same principle on which such children are held by us to be citizens of the United States,...applies to the children of American fathers born without the jurisdiction of the United States,
-and entitles the country within whose jurisdiction they are born to claim them as citizen and to subject them to duties to it."

WHAT SHEAR IDIOCY! First, "subject children to duties"??? Next, there is no principle involved AT ALL! It is purely policy, doctrine, convention, tradition, -not even law.
Only nature produces principles. And they are incorporated into human law, -but place of birth belonging is not one of them.

"Such children are born to a double character;.. but the child, from the circumstances of his birth, may acquire rights and owes another fealty besides that which attaches to the father.

THAT IS ANTI-AMERICAN! WE OWE NO FEALTY TO ANY FOREIGN GOVERNMENT! (unless born of a foreign father) Birth location does not change that. Natural Americans owe all allegiance to America.

All that matters eventually is where a child grows up and what a young man chooses at adulthood.
HE chooses where his loyalty(ies) lie, -not government policy, -but he owes national defense service to the country of his choice.

Opinions of the Executive Departments on Expatriation, Naturalization and Allegiance (1873)

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/h2ooflife/Adrien Nash,

We have all heard it from you over and over again. Yours is all a product of your imagination. Through your historical fiction presentation, you write how you believe things ought to be.

Interpreting the Constitution is not done through historical fiction. Rather, it is done by finding and analyzing contemporaneous historical and legal sources which speak to us about what the Framers intended when they wrote a certain provision of the Constitution and what the people of that time understood the Constitution to mean. What that means is that you do not get to just make up whatever suits your personal family agenda concerning what the Constitution means. If you want to convince anyone about your position, then produce the historical and legal sources that lend support to what is otherwise just your biased imagination that is the necessary product of your family agenda.

Otherwise stated, there is no credible constitutional basis to your super blood citizens.

Anonymous said...

It meant that any and all children born in America of Americans were Americans for sure.

That is what it meant but not what it said. Instead, it gave two indicators of citizenship; one natural and one legal or common law custom.

Born of citizens? Then you are a citizen.

Born in country? Then you are a citizen.

Both? Then without doubt you are not just a citizen but a natural citizen by birth.
Such citizens, being natives, are the diametric opposite of foreigners or aliens.

Other citizens, about whose citizenship there has been controversy between State governments and the national government, are unmentioned because their status is still unsettled and their nature is a hybrid nature which, depending on which citizenship philosophy is followed, can result in unnatural dual-citizenship; -political bigamy.

They are the gray middle between natural citizens and foreign citizens since they involve two worlds, two nations, two governments, two nationalities.

Unknown said...

Being born in us is also very important to be a nbc because as mario points out being born outside of us means you are not under us jurisdiction. Hey sfest, GW decided to change the wording in NA 1795 to citizens of the US in regards to children born to us citizens outside the US but you know that already. Maybe you can show us in article 2 where a citizen of the US is eligible now, thanks, from one DH to another. Btw, even though barry promised this would be most transparent and ethical ( HAHAHAHAHA) administration ever i have a hard time believing the lerner emails were lost.

Unknown said...

Article 2 says natural born citizen, not natural citizen

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

A couple hundred posts ago, Byron quoted the SCOTUS (in Wong Kim Ark, I believe) as saying that although the specific language of the naturalization acts changed after 1790, the meaning did not. Mario & company ignored this, like everything else that contradicts their theories.

As for "shall be considered as", the only question is if that means "shall be considered as natural born citizens for the purposes of Article II", and the only opinion that counts is that of the courts (and the SCOTUS in particular). I strongly doubt we will ever see a court decision to the contrary (which I also think is in line with the intent of the First Congress).

Carlyle said...

Mario asked: Do you maintain that birth in the United States to one U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a natural born citizen? Please respond by saying yes or no, and then explain your answer.

I do not know. I only said that father's citizenship is NECESSARY, I did not say it was SUFFICIENT.

My major reservation is that in those days, the citizenship of the father tended to determine the citizenship of the whole household. So perhaps that is the key.

I am a great believer in the concept of ALLEGIANCE. Therefore I lean more toward blood than soil. I have a hard time understanding how a baby born to a woman who is briefly visiting a foreign country has any relationship to that country at all.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

As for "shall be considered as", the only question is if that means "shall be considered as natural born citizens for the purposes of Article II", and the only opinion that counts is that of the courts (and the SCOTUS in particular). I strongly doubt we will ever see a court decision to the contrary (which I also think is in line with the intent of the First Congress)."

If that had been their intent, the 1790 Act would not have been repealed in its entirety and replaced with the 1795 Act which changed it to "shall be considered as citizens".

I also think it is significant that the clause in the 1795 Act - "And be it further enacted, that the children of persons duly naturalized, dwelling within the United States, and being under the age of twenty-one years, at the time of such naturalization, and the children of citizens of the United States, born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States:"
describes both the children of naturalized aliens and the children of citizens born out of the country as "citizens" in the aggregate, implying their citizen status is equivalent, instead of addressing their citizenship separately.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

A couple hundred posts ago, Byron quoted the SCOTUS (in Wong Kim Ark, I believe) as saying that although the specific language of the naturalization acts changed after 1790, the meaning did not. Mario & company ignored this, like everything else that contradicts their theories."

I cannot find this reference. Can you point it out to me?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

The Obots just do not know when to quit. Now we have Slartibartfast telling us that there are different types of natural born citizens just floating around, not just Article II natural born citizens.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Carlyle,

I see that you did not answer my simple question with either "yes" or "no." Allow me to try it another way.

Is it your position that a child born in the United States to a U.S. citizen mother and an alien father is an Article II “natural born citizen?”

Regardless of what your answer is, please provide your definition of an Article II “natural born citizen.”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You accuse me of ignoring Byron Gene Olson’s (Unknown/NotLinda/bygenon) argument regarding the meaning of the early naturalization acts. He points out that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) (not Wong Kim Ark which is what you said), first quoted the Naturalization Act of 1790 and then said: “These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since.”

But a plain reading of the Naturalization Acts from 1790 to the time the Court decided Minor shows that all the acts were not “in substance” the same. In fact, persons who were born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who were citizens under the Act of 1790 and 1795 were no longer citizens under the Act of 1802. But regardless of such a simple point, from that statement that the Court made, Olson in effect argues that Minor believed that even though the Third Congress specifically removed “natural born citizen” and replaced it with “citizen of the United States,” it did not believe that the Third Congress was materially changing the statute and that in the mind of the Third Congress those children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents were still to be considered as natural born citizens. So, according to you and Mr. Olson, Minor believed that the Third Congress really wanted those children to still be considered as natural born citizens, but for some unknown reason decided to expend its precious time and resources to remove from the statute the nomenclature “natural born citizen” and replace it with “citizen of the United States,” all the time knowing that Article II provided that only natural born citizens were eligible to be President.

Further, according to you and Mr. Olson, Minor also believed that when the Framers, which included, among others, George Washington, James Madison, Benjamin Franklin, and James Wilson, wrote “citizen of the United States” and “natural born citizen” in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, the clauses meant two very different things, with citizens of the United States no longer being eligible to be President if born after the adoption of the Constitution, but that when the Third Congress wrote “citizen of the United States,” which still included Founders and Framers, including then-Representative James Madison, and with the approval of President George Washington, it meant the same thing as when the First Congress wrote “natural born citizen.”

Now you want us to believe that Minor believed all that even though it clearly and plainly said that the natural born citizens were those children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” who could be made citizens under the very same naturalization acts which you and Mr. Olson state the Court found to define a natural born citizen.

Now, I do really need for you and Mr. Olson to help me out on this one. Please do.

And while you are assisting me in understanding Mr. Olson’s theory, you might want to address my comments on Nathan Deal which you and Obot & Co. have conveniently ignored.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote:
Mr. Nash figured he would help himself by cutting out that part of the English naturalization statute which proves that I am correct that at best those children are naturalized at birth and not natural born citizens.

(The other persons born out of the United States and made by Congress citizens of the United States are so made after birth.)

According to master Mario, Congress is somehow, mysteriously and magically imbued just like Parliament, with unlimited POWER of naturalization -with naturalization not even being defined
The only problem is, -IT ISNT'T!!!

1. Congress is not Parliament.

2. Congress does not possess Parliament's Power.

3. Congress is limited by the Constitution (but not in Mario World).

4. The State representatives to the constitutional convention endeavored to retain as much State Sovereignty as possible, -including over their own immigration & naturalization of foreigners.

5. Thus they gave Congress in the Constitution no power equivalent to Parliament.

6. They only authorized it to make the 13 State naturalization statutes or rules uniform. UNIFORM! NOTHING ELSE!

7. Natural-IZATION relates ONLY to making citizens of those who are foreign by birth. That means they were born of foreigners. Their blood connection is only to a foreign father.

8. The Common Law of the Colonies & States was to deem alien-fathered native sons as citizens (made natural) from birth -or "naturalized at birth".

9. That only left foreigners born in foreign countries for Congress to address, -including those born abroad of an American mother but a foreign father. (she took on her husband's nationality by marrying him and living with him abroad,.. -and giving birth to foreign children).

10. Americans born abroad were not an element of the authority that Congress was given to make uniform the State rules of naturalizing foreigners.

And yet Mario endlessly, falsely, and deceitfully continues to state that they were.

What are we all here for? To get and share facts. That is what Mario is supposedly all about. And yet he will not share where the Parliament-like authority over nationality is derived from.

He will not do that because he cannot do that which is impossible since it does not exist.

So I'm demanding of master Mario; Put up or shut up!
Quote the constitutional source of your fictional authority for the record for once. No more evasion!

Stop declaring facts not in evidence, councilor. The court of public opinion requires hard evidence. But you have none, so what you actually are doing is a bamboozle job on the court, -with a false pretense that it is an un-argued fact that everyone accepts.

Children may accept your presumptuous proclamations about the POWER of Congress, but no court of evidence will.

But you can neither prove your false claim nor retract it because you have welded it into your over-all dogma.
And so this diatribe will be ignored, like those before it.

Anonymous said...

dick head said...
"Article 2 says natural born citizen, not natural citizen."

Please explain the difference. I really need to know because it is VERY important!

Wilted Rose quoted & observed: " "...and the children of citizens of the United States, born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States" -[that] describes both the children of naturalized aliens and the children of citizens born out of the country as "citizens" in the aggregate, implying their citizen status is equivalent, instead of addressing their citizenship separately."

Let's parse your words: "implying their citizen status is equivalent"; -"status" is key, as it relates to their rights as citizens. Their rights were identical.
What was NOT identical was the nature and origin of their citizenship.
One was a citizen as an allowance of law, while the other was by Right of Blood, -jus sanguinis.

But, like I've explained previously, even that is an inaccurate characterization. That is because they ALSO were made citizens by Right of Blood, -just not their own. It was their father's "blood".

His "foreign blood" had been replaced with "American blood" via natural-i-z-a-t-i-o-n!

He had become a new natural citizen by the standard legal fiction inherited from Britain.

Thus, his children were then viewed as now possessing his new "American blood" or character.
Thus, via jus sanguinis, they also were deemed to be Americans since they could not have a nature that was not identical to their father.

The citizenship of Americans born abroad was addressed separately in the first Nat. Act because the founders wanted to protect the natural right of all American fathers to pass their natural American citizenship to their children regardless of geography or borders, and thus secure their right to serve as President.

The words they used served absolutely no other purpose on earth.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

It is simply absurd for you to maintain that the Constitution does not give Congress the power to make any qualified person born out of the United States a citizen of the United States at birth or after birth. Our nation has been doing that since 1790, if not sooner, down to the very present.

I do not know what world you live in, but it surely is not the same one that has existed and presently exists as I type these words.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

As further comment on John Jay’s letter of 1781 to De Campo, you will note that if John Vaughan had been born on July 4, 1776, he would have been 4 or 5 years old in 1781, when John Jay wrote his letter to De Campo. Since Jay speaks of Vaughan as though he were an adult, he had to have been born well before 1776. Jay said that his mother was an American. She would most likely have been born in the colonies and then either she herself or her parents would have adhered to the American Revolution. In any event, she would have had to reside in the states after July 4, 1776 in order to acquire the character of an American citizen. We do not know how the mother ended up in England to give birth to her son there. The mother could have been an American who then met her British husband during the revolution and left with him to go to England. While in England, she gave birth to John Vaughan. The legal question would then arise whether she lost her American citizenship by marrying an alien or by removing herself from the United States and moving to England with her British husband.

John Jay, the father of the natural born citizen clause, informed in 1781, before Congress passed its first naturalization act in 1790, that John Vaughan, who was born in England to a British father and an American mother, was alien born and needed naturalization after birth in order to become a “citizen of the United States.” Jay accepted Vaughan’s mother as an American citizen, but we do not know on what basis. But even with an American mother, Jay still considered Vaughan alien born.
Had Senator Ted Cruz been born in Canada to a Cuban father and a U.S. citizen mother in place of Vaughan, John Jay would have ruled that he was alien born and needed naturalization after birth. We also know that an Act of Congress cannot amend the Constitution. Yet, Jack Maskell and the Obots, to promote their absurd argument that all born citizens are natural born citizens (if born citizen, then natural born citizen, or if 1,2, then 1,2,3) and thereby cover for Obama who at best is a born citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, are compelled to maintain that Senator Ted Cruz, born in Canada to a Cuban father and an American mother, is not only a “citizen of the United States” at birth under current naturalization Acts of Congress, but also an Article II “natural born citizen” (as if an Act of Congress somehow amended Article II’s natural born citizen clause). As we can clearly see from Jay’s letter, the critical problem for Mr. Maskell, the Obots, and ultimately for Senator Cruz, is that the Framers never got their born citizen memo.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast and Unknown/NotLinda/bygenon/Byron Gene Olson,

I asked Adrien Nash the following question which he did not even come close to answering. Now I ask you both the same question.

Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained:

“The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that. At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Minor, at 167.

Please explain what the Court meant when it said that under the common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution, “who shall be natural-born citizens” were all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens and that these natural-born citizens were “distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

Carlyle said...

Mario asked: Is it your position that a child born in the United States to a U.S. citizen mother and an alien father is an Article II “natural born citizen?”

NO!

Since the NBC requirement is meant to be exclusionary, it requires MULTIPLE conditions to be NBC.

To me, the strongest ties of allegiance come through the father. Secondarily is the country in which you are born. The weakest element is the citizenship of the mother. I personally believe that both parents are required. But given the nature of families and the citizenship of wives in the 18th century, I believe one could possibly make an argument that citizenship through the father is sufficient. It could never be the case that "mother only" is sufficient.

But other than that I am unsure. There are too many special cases that I don't know how to handle.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Carlyle,

What would you say to someone who says that by allowing a child born in the United States to a U.S. citizen father and an alien mother to be a natural born citizen, you would be allowing a child born with allegiance to a foreign power to be a natural born citizen?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thomas Jefferson wrote in his 1779 Virginia citizenship law:

“[A]nd all infants wheresoever born, whose father, if living, or otherwise whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth . . . shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth until they relinquish that character in manner as herein after expressed."

This statement is interesting to analyze and apply. How would this statement actually work in the practical application? Jefferson said that a child “wheresoever” born, which had to include Virginia, had to be born to a citizen father, if he was alive, and if he was dead, to a citizen mother. This rule leaves only a certain amount of factual possibilities which would have allowed the child to be born a citizen of Virginia, regardless of where the child was born:

One: The father and mother are both citizens. They marry. They then have a child.

Two: The father is a citizen and the mother is an alien. They marry and the wife becomes a citizen. They then have a child.

Three: Either one or two and the husband dies before the birth of the child (the child was born 9 months after the father died).

Four: The father was an alien and marries a citizen woman. The wife becomes an alien. He dies. The mother then becomes a citizen again before the child is born. But she would have had to become a citizen during the 9 months of the pregnancy period and before giving birth to the child.

Five: The father was an alien and marries an alien woman. He dies. The mother then becomes a citizen before the child is born. But she would have had to become a citizen during the 9 months of the pregnancy period and before giving birth to the child.

In Option One and Two, the parents are alive and both citizens.

In Option Three, both parents were citizens, but the husband died before the birth of the child.

In Option Four and Five, before the child was born, both of the child’s parents were aliens. The father dies and then the mother has to quickly become a citizen before her child is born in 9 months.

If only Options One to Three applied, in all cases, the child had parents who were both citizens, either at the time of his or her birth or before birth. If he or she had only a citizen mother at birth, his or her father would have died a citizen.

If Option Four and Five also applied, then the child could have had no citizen parents before his or her birth, but one citizen parent at birth.

Queries: (1) was it possible under Virginia naturalization laws or some other laws for a surviving alien widow of a dead alien husband to become a citizen in 9 months? (2) did Jefferson see his statute being applied in Options One to Five, or only in Options One to Three?

I have quickly put this comment together and I might have left out other options and observations. It might even contain some error. I will appreciate whatever input anyone might have regarding this very interesting aspect of Jefferson’s 1779 citizenship law.

Unknown said...

Mario,

Jefferson's citizenship law had no time limits on naturalization.

It said:
"...and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same, other than alien enemies, and shall before any court of record give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation, that they intend to reside therein; and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;..."

And the Oath of Fidelity is given on page 22 of The Statutes at Large, (also from the revised bills of 1779).

It looks like a person could be naturalized a citizen of the commonwealth at any time as long as they could convince a court that they were sincere, and then swear the oath of fidelity.

(As an aside, I noticed that the University of Chicago version of "Citizens of this Commonwealth" does not include the clause "other than alien enemies" in it.)

MichaelN said...

Carlyle said ....

"To me, the strongest ties of allegiance come through the father."
---------------
In the context of US native-born.

Carlyle, a child must be born to a mother.

A child cannot be born without both a mother AND a father.

Normally in the Framing period, marriage was a prerequisite to producing off-springs, and a man's wife took the husband's citizenship, even prior to the birth of any off-springs.

So even when the father's citizenship/allegiance held the "strongest ties", these ties encompassed that of the mother, who's citizenship/allegiance ties were equal to her husband's.

In and around the framing period, and with regard to the citizenship of minor children, when reference was made to a child's parents, it was a given that the parents were married, so even though there were many references to the "father", it really encompassed the wife of the father, without whom there would be no child at all.


ajtelles said...

Whack the pinata for original intent and original genesis goodies for all...

Mario, your extrapolation on June 21, 2014 at 4:47 PM from my new best friend John Jay's letter to Del Campo on Nov. 3, 1781, while Jay was still in Spain, hit Jay's original genesis meaning for underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" on the bull's eye.

[...]

>> But even with an American mother,
>> Jay still considered Vaughan alien born.

>>Had Senator Ted Cruz been born in Canada
>> to a Cuban father and a U.S. citizen mother
>> in place of Vaughan,
>> John Jay would have ruled that
>> he was alien born
>> and needed naturalization after birth."


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

John Jay knew his "unity of citizenship and allegiance" common law.

Vaughn's mother - U.S. citizen – gave birth on foreign soil when son was born to foreign citizen father.
Cruz's mother - U.S. citizen – gave birth on foreign soil when son was born to foreign citizen father.

Vaughn - singular British citizenship when the letter was written in 1781 BEFORE U.S. naturalization acts.
Cruz - dual citizenship AFTER U.S. naturalization acts, specifically 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act.

Sen. Cruz is a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act "citizen." See the INA: ACT 301, Nationals and Citizens of the United States at Birth, Sec. 301. [8 U.S.C. 1401 (g)], about half way down the page, with live links to the original USCIS.gov page.

>> http://originalbirtherdocument18.blogspot.com/

To be a 1787 Article II "natural born Citizen" and eligible to be POTUS, Sen. Cruz needed to be born ONLY on U.S. soil (and jurisdictions according to all immigration acts since 1790) AND birth ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents married to each other BEFORE Sen. Cruz was born.

My new best frient and original birther John Jay in 1781 OR in 1787 did NOT imply the 2000s myth of the 2000s "one-citizen-parent" theory, whether it was ONLY the citizen father or ONLY the citizen mother, the 2000s myth that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent was implied when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note on July 25, 2787 to original birther George Washington.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

MichaelN said...

Here is an example of when people are US "citizens at birth", but not necessarily Article II "natural born citizens" and they are not described as NBC either.

Why is that, if it is such a done deal (according to the Obamitized) that all born citizens are NBCs???

http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents

Now why does the USCIS not describe those children born off-shore to two US parents, as "natural born citizens"??? ..... they are born citizens..... right?

Kev???

After all, they are born citizens.... aren't they Kev?

Didn't you say that there are only two types of citizens?.... those who are born citizens (all of whom you erroneously call "natural born citizens") and naturalized citizens.

Kev???

How come the USCIS doesn't need to clarify or make mention of those children born native in US to US citizen parents???

Then we have this....

http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartH-Chapter3.html#S-A

"A person born in the United States who is subject to the jurisdiction of the United States is a U.S. citizen at birth,...."

Why are these native-born not described as "natural born citizens"???? ..... Kev?

Unknown said...

The language changed in the nat act of 1795 but the meaning did not hahaha. You are so full of it....if i ever have to face a honest judge i will tell him the language of the law changed but the meaning did not. NA 1795 means what it says and says what it means. I respect George Washington too much to twist words he approved

ajtelles said...

"all ... wheresoever ... if ... shall be deemed ... until"

Mario,

Your June 21, 2014 at 7:36 PM multi-option analysis of the language of Jefferson's law seems simple enough if only the words of the one sentence you adduced are fleshed out with only one option considered, because Jefferson probably had ONLY one scenario in mind, it seems to me, since he did not suggest more than scenario.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

>> "Thomas Jefferson wrote in his 1779 Virginia citizenship law:

>> “[A]nd all infants wheresoever born,
>>whose father,
>> if living,
>> or otherwise whose mother was a citizen at the time of their birth . . .
>> shall be deemed citizens of this commonwealth
>> until they relinquish that character
>> in manner as herein after expressed."

[...]

>> "One:
The father and mother are both citizens.
They marry.
They then have a child.

>> "Two:
The father is a citizen and
the mother is an alien.
They marry
and the wife becomes a citizen.
They then have a child."


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

#1 and #2 are in essence only one, state citizenship only, since the issue in Jefferson's language does not reference federal law in Article II.
Of coursxe, the rest of the language of Jefferson's 1779 citizeship law would add to my analysis and answer, but Jefferson's "... all ... wheresoever ... if ... shall be deemed ... until ..." language seems clear to me at this point.

So, based on the inherent language of that section of Jefferson's law as adduced, it seems clear:

_BOTH parents are U.S. citizens and are married to each other before the child is born.
_The child is a U.S. jus sanguinis citizen of the state of Virginia "wheresoever born," in Virginia or another state.

And, Mario, as my new best friend John Jay might say, since BOTH husband and wife are U.S. citizens of the state of Virginia BEFORE their child is born to them, their child is a "natural born Citizen" of the "Union" as of September 17, 1787 in accordance to the common law implicit in the word "born" that the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

That last part, although it is reptitiious, it was written for the Obama birth narrative Obama-birthers who are holdin' on tight to the 2000s theory, the 2000s myth that ONLY "one-citizen-parent" has been part of the common law since the 1700s.

John Jay would probably say, huh?
Where did that 2000s theory, that 2000s myth come from?
It certainly did NOT come from my underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" July 25, 1787 in 1700s America.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

the "Framing" period...

Dittos, MichaelN,

>> "In and around the framing period,
>> and with regard to the citizenship of minor children,
>> when reference was made to a child's parents,
>> it was a given that the parents were married,
>> so even though there were many references to the "father",
>> it really encompassed the wife
>> of [and?] the father,
>> without whom there would be no child at all."


June 21, 2014 at 9:07 PM

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

As in the "Framing period" in the 1700s, so also in the 2000s.

It still takes TWO to produce ONE.

It takes TWO U.S. "citizen" parents to produce ONE "citizen" child who is also an Article II "natural born Citizen" in fulfillment of the 1700s "unity of citizenship and allegiance" common law that was implicit in the word "born" that John Jay underlined.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And dittos regarding your common sense points and questions and conclusions to "Kev" who NEVER ever ever ever ever NEVER responds to 1787 original intent and original genesis common sense.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "It is simply absurd for you to maintain that the Constitution does not give Congress the power to make any qualified person born out of the United States a citizen of the United States at birth or after birth. Our nation has been doing that since 1790, if not sooner, down to the very present."

No, Mario, Congress, not "our nation", has been only been perceived as doing that, and yet that was not what they were actually doing.

I've explain why that is. And predicted that you would not and could not show how that is what they actually did or by what authority they could have done it.

You've failed the test of debate by resorting to a non-answer and an insult to the challenge which you could not address.

"I do not know what world you live in, but it surely is not the same one that has existed and presently exists as I type these words."

Exactly. I don't live in the world of the Wong court's opinion of the 14th Amendment. Do you?

I don't live in the John Griggs bastardized view of the Wong opinion. I do not live in your bastardized world of law.
If I did, I would have to assume that obama is a constitutional President since that is its position, -it would appear. Any signs to the contrary?

No, I live in the world of the actual Constitution. You ignore the actual Constitution because it does not comport with your dogma. It, and the Nat. Act of 1790, exposed your nonsense for what it is.
But you cannot hide from its immortal words, -words which do NOT contain the authority which the government supposedly exercises.
Either the government is not off the rails, or the Constitution is the real authority which goes mostly ignored, -as we've seen over and over. (ACA)

You cannot seriously defend the legal positions and actions of the government when it ignores your doctrine totally, along with the Constitution.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/h2ooflife/Adrien Nash,

I have a simple question for you. If the Naturalization Act of 1790 contained as you contend “immortal words, -words which do NOT contain the authority which the government supposedly exercises,” what God passed such a law and why did then- Representative James Madison, the rest of Congress, and President George Washington repeal it and change its words from “natural born citizen” to “citizen of the United States?”

Please do tell all.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

Accepting the holding in Minor helps me much more than it does Mario.

What Minor tells us:

1. "citizen" = "subject"---very bad for Mario

2. The Constitution is written in the nomenclature of the English common law---i.e. the ECL is the "dictionary" for the Constitution... VERY bad for Mario

3. All children are either natives (natural born citizens) or aliens at birth---very bad for Mario

4. There is no doubt that the native born children of citizens are nbc---doesn't hurt Mario, but this was never in dispute

5. There is doubt as to whether the native born children of aliens are nbc or alien, but some people think they are nbc---game over for Mario. He needs certainty here for the necessary condition that completes his definition and his suggestion that this statement creates a third class when the prior statement explicitly said newborns were all members of one of two classes is absurd on its face.

6. The prior statement is clearly dicta. Removing it entirely has absolutely no effect on the reasoning used to arrive at the holding---the very definition of obiter dicta.

7. Wong Kim Ark, having come later, supersedes Minor---Mario wont even admit something so basic that everyone knows it: the fact that Minor was unanimous and Wong was a split decision is irrelevant, but the fact that Wong came later gives it more legal weight. By the way, this is true of the Constitution as well (otherwise we would still have prohibition and African-Americans would count as 3/5 a person).

8. The justices did not do any research into how one obtains citizenship for Minor---the case was about whether or not suffrage was a privilege of citizenship rather than who was or was not a citizen and if they had researched the issue, they wouldn't have had doubts.

9. The justices extensively researched how a person obtains citizenship for Wong Kim Ark---the holding goes into great detail about what makes a person a natural born citizen/subject and explicitly quotes the court in Minor expressing doubt (right before answering those doubts).

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

With regard to the substance of the naturalization acts, it isn't Byron or I who are saying anything, it is the SCOTUS in Minor (thank you for correcting my error---Wilted Rose, I'm not sure where the passage is, but it is somewhere in the holding of Minor).

As for the term "citizen of the United States", wherever and whenever it was used, it meant "natural born and/or naturalized citizen"---it was never used in a sense that would exclude a natural born citizen from being considered a citizen of the United States. Your claim that is is somehow exclusive (which would prohibit natural born citizens from serving in Congress) is one of the more dishonest of your arguments.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

You gave a completely self-contradictory response to my counterexample regarding your statement about the native-born children of transient aliens never being considered citizens between the Ratification and the 14th Amendment. You cited the New York legislature explicitly denying their citizenship after the Lynch v. Clark ruling. To refute my example of Jessica Lynch, you would need to show that either she wasn't considered a citizen or that she wasn't the child of transient aliens---neither of which you can do. Instead, you confirm that such children were considered citizens---otherwise the law that New York passed would have been unnecessary. In addition, since the ruling of the court in Lynch was based on extensive study of citizenship at the national level, the implication is that native born children of transient aliens were citizens everywhere except where they were explicitly ruled out---presumably, that would mean everywhere but New York.

Will you do the honest thing and admit that your original statement was wrong?

I'm not holding my breath.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote about the Vaughan case:
"While in England, she gave birth to John Vaughan. The legal question would then arise whether she lost her American citizenship by marrying an alien or by removing herself from the United States and moving to England with her British husband."

Actually that is not correct. That is only the question from the post-Cable Act era. Back then the only question was did nationality pass solely from the living married father or not?

Was his nationality the sole national umbrella under which the entire family lived or not?

Your question about her citizenship would only apply if her husband died before their child was born, and she moved back to the States.

Note that being an American and being a State citizen were two different things. There are perhaps a million Americans who are not U.S. citizens because their parents illegally brought them to the U.S. as small children and raised them here. "American" is the only national identify they have ever known.
~~~~~~

"Queries: (1) was it possible under Virginia naturalization laws or some other laws for a surviving alien widow of a dead alien husband to become a citizen in 9 months?

Virginia act said:
"...and all who shall hereafter migrate into the same, and shall before any court of record give satisfactory proof by their own oath or affirmation, that they intend to reside therein; and moreover shall give assurance of fidelity to the commonwealth;..."

Foreign women could not become naturalized State citizens because they could not shoulder the common burden of citizenship: national defense.
They could not take the naturalization oath of Allegiance & Renunciation (written solely for men) and swear to BEAR ARMS in national defense.

But State magistrates could, in circumstances of widows, allow them to be naturalized anyway, but probably only if they had children that needed to acquire derivative citizenship through her.

That was allowed if the father had sworn that he planned to become an American citizen when allowed after sufficient time of residency had been met.
learn more at obama--nation.com

Anonymous said...

Mario, I've already explained that over and over, and a lot more that you are unable to acknowledge. Unlike you, I am too busy writing new things to regurgitate what I've repeatedly explained.

You must have a massive mental block if you are truly unaware of my answer to your question, -a block too thick to ever penetrate.
I could answer your question but you would simply repeat it in a few months.

Slartibartfast said...

MichaelN,

As I said to Mario, "citizen" can include both naturalized and natural born. Also, as I have said before, the natural born citizenship of the native-born (such as Piyush Jindal, Marco Rubio and President Obama) has been undisputed for over a century and while a non-frivolous argument can be made about Rafael Cruz, John McCain and their ilk, it will never win in court.

Art,

Why wont you accept the historical reality that for at least the first three quarters of the eighteenth century the meaning of the term "natural born" was undisputed? Probably because it leads to the inescapable conclusion that this is the only definition which the Founders could have considered so uncontroversial that it was unnecessary to define the term.

Slartibartfast said...

Comment from the Fogbow regarding Mario's comments about the naturalization acts and James McClure:

Pretty funny actually. Those naturalization acts of course don't say children of aliens born in the US were aliens, they simply didn't expressly state such provision only applied to the foreign born for, as the Supreme Court has clearly stated, by definition, only the foreign born can be naturalized. Accordingly, Mario's argument has been rejected by the Supreme Court multiple times, by the opinions of the executive department, by the most famous ante-bellum citizenship case and pretty much every 19th century legal treatise anyone has ever heard of. Of course, Mario just says he is right and everyone else is wrong so he wins or something. Funny how when you point out clear statements from the Supreme Court saying Mario is wrong, it simply doesn't count because he says so. However, when he cherry-picks out of context dicta from cases having nothing to do with citizenship, it is dispositive. Funny how such approach doesn't work in court.

The McClure case is even funnier. Monroe sent proof of McClure's place of birth saying was sufficient to establish he was a citizen. Any normal person would see this as further proof of jus soli being the law. However, Mario decided that calling him a "citizen" meant he wasn't a "natural born citizen." Seriously. Of course, no one in history has ever made such a stupid claim and such would mean that natural born citizens literally would not be eligible to sit in Congress per the Constitution. In fact, his favorate case, Minor v. Happersett, repeatedly says natural born citizens are also citizens. Doesn't matter. Mario says he wins, it must mean he wins even if it means everyone else in history is wrong.

Slartibartfast said...

I have a question for everyone here---what do you think is the role of the voters?

Mario asked a bunch of questions regarding President Obama's trip to Pakistan and received answers consistent with both known facts and the stories put out by President Obama and his campaign and that that's the only answer he's going to get (and is more than he deserves). Mario seems to feel that he deserves some kind of official answer from the President of the United States (as if President Obama is even aware of his existence) and that the lack of same is somehow grounds for suspicion. This despite the fact that no presidential candidate in our nation's history has ever answered questions regarding a vacation taken over two decades before they sought the presidency.

On the other hand, his two opponents each behaved very suspiciously regarding questions which have been asked of every recent presidential candidate.

John McCain limited a group of reporters (not doctors) to one hour of looking at over 800 pages of medical records. An oncologist specializing in melanoma said that what was reported from those records was more consistent with a stage IV melanoma (5 year survival rate under 15%) rather than a stage III as the campaign claimed. This seems extremely pertinent information regarding a man who's death would have given Sarah Palin the presidency.

Mitt Romney refused to release the decade or so of tax returns that has been standard for all presidential hopefuls since the campaign of his own father. As failing to meet the standard his father set for being trustworthy seriously hurt the campaign, we can surmise that releasing the returns would have hurt even more. One suggestion is that Mr. Romney took advantage of a one-time tax amnesty to move money that he had "hidden" off-shore back into the US---something that would have likely destroyed his chances of being elected.

To me, nothing about President Obama's trip to Pakistan was suspicious or relevant to his campaign while both McCain and Romney behaved extremely suspiciously regarding information every candidate is expected to provide. Furthermore, I think that every voter has the right to weigh this information however he or she chooses. Personally, I think it weighed heavily in favor of President Obama in both cases and, as it turned out, the majority of voters agreed with me.

At this point, all your whining over a failed strategy is beyond pathetic---and it shows a fundamental distrust of democracy.

Slartibartfast said...

dick head,

What did the SCTOUS mean by the following passage in Minor?

"Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided "that any alien, being a free white person," might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, and that the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under twenty-one years of age at the time of such naturalization, should also be considered citizens of the United States, and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. [n8] These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since."

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash was praised by several people here for the following comments:

"How can facts "smear" a criminal?

Are defendants in court being "smeared"?
"

Apparently, none of you understand the concepts of "innocent until proven guilty" and "burden of proof".

You can't assume that anyone is a criminal until they have been proven to be such in a court of law and an alleged criminal can certainly be smeared with unverified or misrepresented facts.

As for defendants in court, prosecutors must demonstrate that there is sufficient evidence before they can lay charges against a defendant and can be charged with false prosecution themselves if they unjustly smear a defendant.

Anyone who would raise an accusation carries the burden to substantiate that accusation. In the case of President Obama, the best evidence the birthers could put on regarding President Obama's eligibility (in Judge Malihi's courtroom in Georgia) was deemed to be of "little to no probative value" and even if all of their evidence was taken as true, they still couldn't possibly have made a case against President Obama for fraud as they were incapable of establishing necessary elements of the crime (such as mens rea).

No honest person would accept a lower burden of proof for an allegation against President Obama than they would find sufficient if they themselves stood accused. If baseless assertions are given credence, then no birther accusation can be taken seriously once anyone accuses them of committing some crime---not to mention the fact that most, if not all, birthers are guilty of bearing false witness against President Obama (multiple counts to boot).

It's like the birthers have never heard of the story of The Boy Who Cried "Wolf!"...

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

Either here or over at the Fogbow, you suggested that Barack Obama Sr. would be eager to claim a US citizen son to bolster his request to stay in the US. This is simply one more of a great many fallacious assumptions you have made. Since, at the time, he was neither living with his son nor supporting him financially, it is highly doubtful that his inclusion on the request would be a plus. Or do you think that the State Department is looking for more deadbeat dads in the country?

Slartibartfast said...

Mario said: "He has no evidence for anything he says. He does not even know the difference between a subset and a proper subset. That is shocking given that he has a Ph.D. in mathematics."

On the contrary, I provide plenty of evidence and support for everything I say---you just ignore anything you can't obfuscate or misrepresent.

Case in point, it is you who doesn't know the difference between a subset and a proper subset---something I have proven to be the case repeatedly. Anyone capable of reading and understanding the basic definitions of set theory realizes that every set is a subset of itself and that all proper subsets are subsets as well. This, like every other statement I have made on the subject of set theory, is objectively true.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said:

(Regarding Minor)
"There is doubt as to whether the native born children of aliens are nbc or alien, but some people think they are nbc---game over for Mario."

Umm, no.

Minor said there were doubts as to whether they were citizens or not. They didn't even intimate that those born of alien parents were natural born. They said they might be "citizens".

Trying to put words in there that aren't there doesn't work.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of III

Your arguments fail because like those of Adrian Nash, they are simply statements of your personal opinion about what the definition of a natural born citizen ought to be rather than what the historical and legal evidence convincingly demonstrates that definition to be. You do not provide historical and legal sources for your position. You also ignore or misrepresent sources that directly contradict you (e.g. David Ramsay, St. George Tucker, Nathan Dale, the James Madison Administration ruling in The James McClure 1811 citizenship case, the early naturalization Acts of Congress, the Fourteenth Amendment, Minor v. Happersett (1875), and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), to name several). Simply telling us what your personal belief is without such supporting sources and honestly addressing those that contradict you make for a losing case which is what you have.

Ignoring or misrepresenting such sources, you attempt to bootstrap a person to be a natural born citizen by two moves which are both fallacious:

(1) You tell us that the citizens of the United States include the natural born citizens. Then without providing the Framers definition of a natural born citizen you attempt to automatically convert a certain part of those citizens of the United States into a natural born citizens simply because they obtained their citizen of the United States status at birth either through the Fourteenth Amendment or some Act of Congress. In so doing, you do not address the means or mechanism by which the Framers saw a person become a natural born citizen. You make no attempt to link the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress upon which you rely to the Framers and others of the Founding period who are the ones to whom we must look to determine what the definition of the natural born citizen clause was when they drafted, adopted, and ratified the Constitution. Your approach is fallacious because you simply fast forward to the Fourteenth Amendment which was ratified in 1868 and equate born a citizen thereunder with Article II's natural born citizen and provide no evidence that the Framers ever took such an approach to defining the clause or accepted such a definition of the clause. On the contrary, the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) confirmed that the definition of a natural born citizen which had existed since the Founding in the United States is not contained in the Fourteenth Amendment. Wong Kim Ark said the same. Minor than explained that the definition of the clause is found in the “common-law” the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and that such definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens and that under that common law all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigner” who could be naturalized by Acts of Congress or treaties. Also, U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1889), first distinguishing a natural born citizen from a citizen at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents who were neither foreign diplomats nor military invaders was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment which we all know did not exist in our nation until 1868 and which both Minor and Wong Kim Ark itself told us did not define a natural born citizen. But you deny all this reality.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

So, your arguments fail because you fail to provide evidence that the Framers considered all born citizens as natural born citizens. Again, to be a natural born citizen one must satisfy the definition of the clause which our U.S. Supreme Court has confirmed since Chief Justice John Marshall, concurring, defined a natural born citizen in The Venus (1814). That is the same definition that served the basis for the Court’s decision in Inglis (1830), Shanks (1830), Dred Scott (1857) (Justice Daniel concurring), The Slaughterhouse Cases (1872), and Minor (1875).
Being born a citizen is only the result or product of being a natural born citizen. It is not a means or mechanism by which one becomes one. One does not automatically become a natural born citizen simply because by some positive law (the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress which did not exist at the time of the adoption and ratification of the Constitution) one became a citizen at the same time that a natural born citizen became a citizen. The only means or mechanism by which one becomes a natural born citizen is to be born in the country to parents who were citizens at the time of the child’s birth. As can be seen from the definition, it has three material elements which are time of birth, citizen parents, and place of birth. So, it is not only a matter of when one becomes a citizens, i.e., at birth, but just as controlling is how one becomes a citizen at birth which is done by being born to citizen parents in the parents’ country.
When the Framers drafted and adopted the Constitution, they saw a natural born citizen becoming such by being born in the country to citizens parents. They saw all other citizens, whether at birth or after birth, as being naturalized by Congress through positive law as such citizens. Hence, for the Framers, it is the word “natural” which constitutionally distinguished natural born citizens from other born citizens. There simply is no other reason why they would have said natural born citizen rather than just born citizen.

But you want us to simply write the word “natural” out of the natural born citizen clause. You latch on to the time a person becomes a citizen as your litmus test for being a natural born citizen when the Framers did not take such an approach. The Framers had a specific means or mechanism by which one became a natural born citizen and that was by being born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. They conveyed that means or mechanism by requiring one to be a “natural born citizen” rather than just a “born citizen” which is what Alexander Hamilton had proposed, but which was not accepted during the Constitutional Convention. For the Framers, it was the union of birth parents and birth place at the time of birth which made a born citizen a natural born citizen. Time of birth was just one factor. The other necessary factors were birth parents and birth place. Your definition of a natural born citizen, limiting it to just being a born citizen, only addresses the time element and fails to account for the other necessary conditions which are birth parents and birth place. In short, your definition of a natural born citizen simply fails to satisfy the Framers’ requirements.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

(2) You also attempt to make a natural born citizen by bootstrapping one from you statement that citizens are either born or naturalized. The fallacy in your approach is that it is citizens who are either born or naturalized, not natural born citizens. That means that you still have to prove that your born citizen is a natural born citizen. You commit further fallacy when you limit your definition of “naturalization,” denying that there is such a thing as naturalization at birth. Your fallacies mask the fact that one can be a born citizen and still just be a citizen rather than a natural born citizen. You cannot change who the Framers saw as natural born citizens by simply telling us that a citizen is not a naturalized citizen--of course, using your limited definition of the term and thereby denying that one can be a naturalized citizen from birth--and not being a naturalized citizen one must be a natural born citizen, without in the first place demonstrating that your citizen is a natural born citizen by showing that that person satisfies the definition of a natural born citizen.

Both of your bootstrap moves, i.e., (1) all born citizens are natural born citizens and (2) if one is not a naturalized (using your limited definition of the word) citizen then one is a natural born citizen, are fallacious and of no merit. Your whole position is based on smoke and mirrors which when honestly and properly analyzed has no constitutional basis.

So, Slartibartfast, what do you and your Obot colleagues have to say for yourselves?

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

What did the SCTOUS mean by the following passage in Minor?

"Under the power to adopt a uniform system of naturalization Congress, as early as 1790, provided "that any alien, being a free white person," might be admitted as a citizen of the United States, and that the children of such persons so naturalized, dwelling within the United States, being under twenty-one years of age at the time of such naturalization, should also be considered citizens of the United States, and that the children of citizens of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens. [n8] These provisions thus enacted have, in substance, been retained in all the naturalization laws adopted since."

I think they meant what they said, that aliens can be naturalized, children of naturalized citizens are automatically naturalized, and that children of citizens born out of the country are automatically naturalized, and it has been that way since the beginning.

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

The court in Minor said that all persons are either aliens or natural born citizens at birth. If the native born children of aliens are not themselves aliens (which, according to the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark, they are) then they are necessarily natural born citizens according to the court in Minor. Mario's interpretation involves the fallacy of "begging the question"---in other words, assuming that which you are trying to prove. In this case, a class of non-natural born citizens at birth.

I made 10 points about Minor most of which are highly detrimental if not outright fatal to Mario's claims. Your response is to claim a single one of those statements was wrong using an argument so clearly fallacious that any objective reader would laugh in your face (or be appalled that you would think such blatant dishonesty would work). You have every right to choose willful ignorance and dishonesty, but I highly doubt they will serve you well.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

" To refute my example of Jessica Lynch, you would need to show that either she wasn't considered a citizen or that she wasn't the child of transient aliens---neither of which you can do. Instead, you confirm that such children were considered citizens---otherwise the law that New York passed would have been unnecessary. In addition, since the ruling of the court in Lynch was based on extensive study of citizenship at the national level, the implication is that native born children of transient aliens were citizens everywhere except where they were explicitly ruled out---presumably, that would mean everywhere but New York."

Get your timeline right. If she had been considered a citizen in the first place, the case would never been brought before the court. New York passed the Law to overrule the erroneous court ruling.

Also, the states of Montana, California, North Dakota and the District of Columbia also had the law about transient aliens on the books. It wasn't just New York.

The District of Columbia bill:

THE CIVIL CODE of LAW AND PROCEDURE OF THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA ... Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled in manner following, that is to say, GENERAL PROVISIONS AND DEFINITIONS
" The inhabitants of this District are its citizens, and comprise - 1)All persons born and domiciled within it, except the children of transient aliens, and of alien public ministers and consuls..."

That is the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America that specified that the children of transient aliens were aliens.

http://books.google.com/books?id=j2hHAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PA15&dq=children+of+%22transient+aliens%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nhKnU9_fO7DY8gHCsICgAQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=children%20of%20%22transient%20aliens%22&f=false

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,

You do not overturn an "incorrect" court ruling via legislation, you appeal to a higher court. Legislation is for changing the law when you don't like how the court interprets it.

Mario claimed the children of transient aliens were never considered citizens.

The court in Lynch said that the children of transient aliens were considered natural born citizens. The later action of the legislature only underlines the contradiction that proves Mario's statement wrong.

As for the timeline...

The law was enacted

A dispute as to its meaning was brought to the courts

The courts interpreted the meaning of the law

The legislature changed the law

Saying the holding of the court was never considered to be true is breathtakingly blatant dishonesty. After all, Jessica Lynch was a citizen, was she not?

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Your Apuzzos keep piling up---you must be so proud. You ask what I have to say for myself...

Well, there are several things of which I am completely confident:

1. Everything I've said here has been completely honest.

2. When I have made mistakes, I have acknowledged them and corrected my arguments accordingly.

3. I could find hundreds of examples of logical fallacies in your comments on this thread, including but not limited to misrepresenting your opponents or historical sources, begging the question, cherry picking and false analogies.

4. You can not find a single fallacy in my comments without resorting to misrepresenting my words.

5. No court will ever recognize your legal theories as anything but frivolous.

6. The public will never see birthers as anything more than a joke.

7. Most Republican candidates will avoid birther issues like the plague and those who don't will end up damaged by their flirtations.

8. President Obama will not be removed from office due to his eligibility.

9. President Obama's eligibility will not even be a footnote in the historical discussion of his legacy, although birthers may be brought up as an example of the hyper-partisan and blatantly hypocritical opposition he faced.

10. President Obama never even thinks about birthers except when it is time to come up with a couple of "bread-and-butter" jokes for the correspondents dinner (even those are probably written by staffers).

11. You and the rest of the birthers will eventually die or walk away from this issue having gained nothing of consequence and engendered nothing but bitterness.

12. I will eventually walk away from birtherism having made many wonderful friends, both online and in meatspace, knowing that I never once compromised my integrity (although there are a few harsh things that, while true, I regret saying) and that, whether in part because of my efforts or in spite of them, birthers never managed any significant victories.

13. History will judge President Obama on his words and actions, not right-wing caricatures.

14. President Obama's eligibility is as certain as anything that can not be objectively proven.

15. It's a beautiful day and I'm not going to waste any more of it on your blog.

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

Wilted Rose,
The court in Minor said that all persons are either aliens or natural born citizens at birth. If the native born children of aliens are not themselves aliens (which, according to the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark, they are) then they are necessarily natural born citizens according to the court in Minor. Mario's interpretation involves the fallacy of "begging the question"---in other words, assuming that which you are trying to prove. In this case, a class of non-natural born citizens at birth.

I made 10 points about Minor most of which are highly detrimental if not outright fatal to Mario's claims. Your response is to claim a single one of those statements was wrong using an argument so clearly fallacious that any objective reader would laugh in your face (or be appalled that you would think such blatant dishonesty would work). You have every right to choose willful ignorance and dishonesty, but I highly doubt they will serve you well."

This statement is demonstrably false - "The court in Minor said that all persons are either aliens or natural born citizens at birth."
If you think this is true, provide me a quote, not your opinion of what they said.

The court in Minor said "Additions might always be made to the citizenship of the United States in two ways: first, by birth, and second, by naturalization."
Note by birth, not at birth.

Natural born citizens are citizens by birth because they are born in the country of citizen parents. By birth means "by origin, genetically". Look in a thesaurus.

Children born in the country of alien parents are citizens at birth by the operation of law which naturalizes them, thanks to Wong Kim Ark.
The US born children of aliens are aliens until the operation of naturalization law. The fact that the operation of law occurs at birth does not change the fact that it is naturalization.

The class of non-natural born citizens at birth are those who are naturalized at birth through law.

There are only natural-born and naturalized.

If an act of law is required to make someone a citizen at birth, they are naturalized, like it or not.

Unknown said...

OK then ...
Slartibartfast said ...

"1. "citizen" = "subject"---very bad for Mario "

From Minor:
"For convenience it has been found necessary to give a name to this membership. The object is to designate by a title the person and the relation he bears to the nation. For this purpose the words "subject," "inhabitant," and "citizen" have been used, and the choice between them is sometimes made to depend upon the form of the government. Citizen is now more commonly employed, however, and as it has been considered better suited to the description of one living under a republican government, it was adopted by nearly all of the States upon their separation from Great Britain, and was afterwards adopted in the Articles of Confederation and in the Constitution of the United States. When used in this sense it is understood as conveying the idea of membership of a nation, and nothing more. "

It is funny that the Minor court didn't say that "natural born subject" and "natural born citizen" were equivalent, eh?
That must be because they said that children of citizen parents born in the country were natural born citizens.

If they followed your ideas, they would have said that anyone born in the country was a natural born citizen.

But they didn't.

Unknown said...

My old history teacher said on facebook today that nbc only needs one citizen parent born outside of us. He said i was talking about a native born citizen saying born in a country to parents who are its citizens...i replied back and i am hoping he sees the light

Unknown said...

Slartibartfast said...

" 2. The Constitution is written in the nomenclature of the English common law---i.e. the ECL is the "dictionary" for the Constitution... VERY bad for Mario"

...And then they said that there are doubts that the children of aliens are citizens. Would they say that if the US followed English common-law in matters regarding citizenship?

It is curious that they didn't say "English common-law" but just "common-law".
There you go again, putting words in there that weren't there originally.

Unknown said...

S again ...

"3. All children are either natives (natural born citizens) or aliens at birth---very bad for Mario"

How is that a bad thing?

"...it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners."

It states it simply, if you were born of citizen parents in the country, you were a natural born citizen. If you weren't you were born an alien or foreigner.

Then Congress would decide, under their power of naturalization, who of those aliens and foreigners would be admitted to citizenship, either at birth or later.
Easy peasy.

Unknown said...

It appears that the Congress in 1845 also thought that the children of aliens were not citizens by virtue of birth in the US alone. Congressman Saunders, in his report on Naturalization said:

"First, the act of 1802, which repeals all former acts, ... It further provides for the children of aliens, whether born within or out of the United States ..."
The Congressional Globe [Appendix., 28th Cong., 2d sess., House, p. 129].

Unknown said...

Judge Samuel Roberts' "Digest of Selected British Statutes..." (Roberts' Digest) On page 26 he says, "The children of aliens, born within the U.S. are aliens; they do not acquire citizenship by birth". (1817)

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"The court in Minor said that all persons are either aliens or natural born citizens at birth..."

Garbage! ........... you are making stuff up....... i.e. you LIE!

The FACT is that the majority opinion of the SCOTUS in the Minor v Happersett case, held that there were credible and unsolved doubts whether native-birth in US to alien parents was sufficient to make one a US citizen at all.

Here's my verbatem quote from the text of the case....
"The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens.
Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.
At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also.
These were natives, or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.
Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents.
As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts.
"

Where's your verbatem quote??

You haven't got one have you Kev..... you are lying Kev.

What an embarrassment you must be to your family and friends.

Unknown said...

OOOhh ...

Interesting little blurb on Findlaw.com

"First, there are people that are born in the United States, but have lived most of their lives outside of the U.S. Some of these people mistakenly believe that they may lose their citizenship and naturalization by living outside of the country for an extended period of time, but this is not true. http://immigration.findlaw.com/citizenship/u-s-citizenship-through-parents-or-by-birth.html

"Born in the United States"
"may lose their their citizenship and naturalization"

So, citizenship and naturalization by birth in the United States.

I'll say it again, if your citizenship depends on
Title 8 - ALIENS AND NATIONALITY
CHAPTER 12 - IMMIGRATION AND NATIONALITY
SUBCHAPTER III - NATIONALITY AND NATURALIZATION
Part I - Nationality at Birth and Collective Naturalization
Sec. 1401 - Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

Then you are naturalized.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Slartibartfast,
Your New York state case of Lynch v. Clarke (1844) is not a 'counterexample' to my position that from July 4, 1776 to U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), our nation introduced and had in effect a new national rule regarding who may be our national citizens (natural born citizens and citizens of the United States), which provided that children born in the United States to alien parents were aliens and therefore could be neither citizens of the United States nor natural born citizens."
[...]
"Hence, Lynch, acting contrary to the will of the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and People, and our U.S. Supreme Court’s decisions on who are the citizens and the natural born citizens, also usurped the constitutional power of Congress as to who shall be the citizens of the United States."

Our U.S. Supreme Court did not see it that way:

"That all children born within the dominion of the United States of foreign parents holding no diplomatic office became citizens at the time of their birth does not appear to have been contested or doubted until more than fifty years after the adoption of the Constitution, when the matter was elaborately argued in the Court of Chancery of New York and decided upon full consideration by Vice Chancellor Sandford in favor of their citizenship. Lynch v. Clark, (1844) 1 Sandf.Ch. 583." [United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, at 664]

In Wong, our highest court informs us that Lynch was notable not, as Mr. Apuzzo says, for going against the established principle, but because it was the first case in U.S. law where the citizenship of children born here to aliens was even in doubt. Mr. Apuzzo says the Court of Chancery of New York "usurped"; our U.S. Supreme Court says the State Court "decided upon full consideration".

The Wong opinion goes on to cite Lynch v. Clark two more times. The other two are neither really approving nor disapproving. They concern the issue of whether English statutes granting citizenship to foreign-born children of subjects were declaratory of common law. The Supreme Court doubts they were, but its major point is that either way the grant of citizenship to some is in no way a denial of citizenship to others. On the citizenship of the native-born, the third paragraph that cites Lynch is clear on what was "the established rule" on the children in question:

"So far as we are informed, there is no authority, legislative, executive or judicial, in England or America, which maintains or intimates that the statutes (whether considered as declaratory or as merely prospective) conferring citizenship on foreign-born children of citizens have superseded or restricted, in any respect, the established rule of citizenship by birth within the dominion. Even those authorities in this country, which have gone the farthest towards holding such statutes to be but declaratory of the common law have distinctly recognized and emphatically asserted the citizenship of native-born children of foreign parents. 2 Kent Com. 39, 50, 53, 258 note; Lynch v. Clarke, 1 Sandf.Ch. 583, 659; Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356, 371." [ibid, at 674]

Wong is also clear on the "natural-born" question, at least for those born in the U.S. and meeting the criteria of the 14'th Amendment. The particular issue in this strand is Mr. Apuzzo's stated position:

"from July 4, 1776 to U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), our nation introduced and had in effect a new national rule [...] which provided that children born in the United States to alien parents were aliens".

Wong demolishes Apuzzo's position. The U.S. Supreme Court looked back, even before the 14'th Amendment, and said in several places, citations of Lynch v. Clarke among them, that our rule was the opposite of what Mr. Apuzzo claims.

-Bryan

ajtelles said...

"hoist by his own petard"...
or
"accept the historical reality"...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., on June 22, 2014 at 12:58 AM, you Kevined/BryanOlsoned..

>> "Art,
>> Why wont you accept
>> the historical reality
>> that for at least
>> the first three quarters
>> of the eighteenth century
>> the meaning of the term
>> "natural born"
>> was undisputed?

>> "Probably
>> because it leads to the inescapable conclusion
>> that this is the only definition
>> which the Founders
>> could have considered so uncontroversial
>> that it was unnecessary
>> to define the term."


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

S..., you did what you mock Mario of doing when you write that he "Apuzzoed" with something he wrote.

S..., your "Kevin/BryanOlson" is that for the first three quarters of the 18th century, the first three quarters of the 1700s, from 1700 to 1775, "... the meaning of the term 'natural born' was undisputed."

S..., your "Kevin/BryanOlson" is that, since there was no dispute about the two words "natural born" for 75 years, that means ipso facto, just because you said so, you are implying that "natural born" means ALSO being born to ONLY the "one-citizen-parent" father, and that father could produce a U.S. "natural born Citizen" child without regard to the citizenship status of the mother of the child who was NOT his wife.

Right?

S..., your Kevin/BryanOlson is that, in addition to ONLY "one-citizen-parent" you are ALSO asserting that there wa ALSO no dispute about John Jay's 1787 original intent and original genesis meaning in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the 1700s original public meaning, the 1700s common law understanding, the 1787 "unity of citizenship and allegiance" understanding that ONLY the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child.

Right?

S..., your Kevin/BryanOlson is that you are asserting BOTH "one-citizen-parent" and ALSO "two-citizen-parents" with the statement that "... the meaning of the term 'natural born' was undisputed" for three-quarters of the 18th century.

Right?

S..., your Kevin/BryanOlson is that you are asserting that John Jay was implying ONE U.S. citizen parent , married OR not married, AND you are asserting that John Jay was ALSO implying BOTH U.S. citizen married parents.

Right?

S..., your Kevin/BryanOlson is that you are denying the exclusivity of BOTH "one-citizen-parent" and "two-citizen-parents" and you are ipso facto asserting that in underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen," John Jay was definitely ALSO implying that ONLY the U.S. citizen father of a child could produce a child with the singular U.S. citizenship if the father had produced a child from a union with either a prostitute or from a girl friend to whom he was NOT married.

Right?

John Jay was definitely NOT implying BOTH a U.S. citizen unmarried father of a child and ALSO a U.S. citizen father and a U.S. citizen mother.

John Jay was NOT implying BOTH birth scenarios, ONE U.S. citizen parent AND also TWO U.S. citizen parents.

So, S..., do you know what "hoist by your own petard (or petar)" means?
Here is the Wikipedia definition -
>> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hoist_by_one%27s_own_petard

Adjective
hoist by one's own petard
1. (idiomatic) To be hurt or destroyed by one's own plot or device intended for another; to be "blown up by one's own bomb".
He has no one to blame but himself; he was hoisted by his own petard.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Unknown said...

Slatribartfast said:

"As for the timeline...

The law was enacted"

What Law?
The Judge in Lynch said:
" But this does not relieve the case from its difficulty, because we have no state law which in express terms declares who are aliens or who are citizens, either in general, or for the purpose of inheriting land."
So what Law are you talking about?


"A dispute as to its meaning was brought to the courts"

The meaning of what? The law that said aliens could not inherit?


"The courts interpreted the meaning of the law"

Again, which Law?



"The legislature changed the law"

The legislature established the Law regarding the children of transient aliens.

The Judge in the case said she was the child of a transient alien.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"both Dr. Conspiracy and I had to educate Ph.D. Mathematician Slartibartfast that while natural born citizens is a subset of citizens, because the two sets are not equal, natural born citizens is correctly called a proper subset, and that when asked what to call natural born citizens, a subset or a proper subset, and to pick only one of these two set names which best describes the set, the proper mathematical answer is proper subset because it is the only choice which denotes that the two sets are not equal."

And previously in this thread Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"First, Unknown/NotLinda still does not understand that all natural born citizens are citizens (being the universal set), but not all citizens are natural born citizens (being a proper subset-see below).
Second, it is wrong to say that a natural born citizen (NBC) is a subset of a citizen of the United States (COTUS), for while every NBC is in the COTUS set, not every COTUS element is in the NBC set."

And wrote:
"Obots for years have been arguing that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens. Clearly, they are wrong in making such a statement, for if the first statement is true which it is, natural born citizens can only be a proper subset of citizens."

And wrote:
"There is much confusion here about set theory. Unknown and the Obots have been arguing for years that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens. I said that they are in error because natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens, not a subset and asked Slartibarfast, who tells us has a Ph.D. in mathematics, to admit the error.
[...]
"But rather than admit the Obot error of which he and Unknown/NotLinda are a part, he says that when we say that a natural born citizen is a proper subset of citizen, it is 'implied' (his word) that a natural born citizen is a subset of a citizen."
[...]
"Hence, there is no equality between the two sets and therefore, one cannot be a subset of the other but only a proper subset, with natural born citizens being the proper subset of citizens"

Perhaps Mario Apuzzo Esq. forgot that on 07 April 2013 he wrote:
"While a 'natural born Citizen' of the United States is a subset of a 'citizen' of the United States, a law that textually defines a 'citizen' of the United States cannot and does not at the same time define a 'natural born Citizen' of the United States, which is a subset of a 'citizen' of the United States."
http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/03/senator-ted-cruz-is-not-natural-born.html

Mr. Apuzzo, your use of "subset" there, sans "proper", is fine. My uses of "proper subset" were also correct. Slartibartfast's explanations of the terms were right. Why bloat your blog with e-tantrums of hypocrisy and invincible ignorance?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Bryan Gene Olson,

I asked Slartibartfast to tell us what is the best answer, natural born citizens is a subset of citizens or a proper subset of citizens. Complaining that he was going to appeal to the Mathematics Department Head for a bad question, he refused to answer which shows his ignorance.

Without any such departmental appeals, Dr. Conspiracy was able to easily tell us as I said that the answer is proper subset. Your defense of Slartibartfast shows your ignorance, too.

ajtelles said...

Cargo Cult Set Theory About the 1700s "Unity of Citizenship and Allegiance"...

Slartibartfast, aka S..., aka Kevin, on June 17, 2014 at 10:14 AM you tried to clarify your understanding of set theory and and implied a connection with your understanding of set theory and your understanding of citizenship, but, as usual, you did not flesh out your implication in your comment. It must be coming later, right?

>> "Art,

Contrary to Mario's misrepresentations,
everything I've said about set theory is completely and demonstrably correct
(nor does anything Doc C said conflict with anything I said).


[S..., uh, exactly which part of what Dr. Conspiracy wrote are you referring to that "completely" agrees with what you wrote?

S..., your limited reference to "... anything ... anything..." is another example of a "Kevin/BryanOlson."]


>> "The problem with what you said about sets
is your "cargo cult" understanding
(by which I mean
you adopt the trappings as best you can
with no understanding whatsoever of how they work).


[S..., see the "cargo cult" definition below, it fleshes out, it adds substance to your limited definition.]

>> "Most of the sets you list as "subsets"
are, in addition, proper subsets.


[S..., since you never fully articulate your meaning, it looks like you are implying BOTH "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" and ALSO "two-U.S.-citizen-parents"with your "in addition" words. Is that right?]

>> "In general, the term "proper subset" isn't used
unless you want to make a point
that the subset is not the set itself.


[S..., that "in general ... unless..." comment is why I deliberately gobbledygooked my comment, so it seems that you also do not understand gobbledygook.]

>> "This makes your comment silly,

[S..., yes, gobbledygook is silly.]

>> "but what makes it ignorant
(and reflects your cargo cult understanding of set theory)
is that you draw an analogy between set theory and citizenship (or try to)


[S..., uh, why don't you flesh out, add substance to what you see as the "analogy between set theory and citizenship" so that we can see clearly what analogy YOU are making.]

but fail to use that analogy to use a (demonstrably true)
theorem of set theory to make a point regarding citizenship.


[S..., what point are YOU implying?

S..., it looks like you are implying that your "... theorem of set theory ... point regarding citizenship" means that my new best friend John Jay was implying ONLY "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" OR ALSO "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" OR ALSO "two-U.S.-citizen-parents" OR ONLY "two-U.S.-citizen-parents" when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in 1787.

S..., which is it?
ONLY one,
ONLY two,
ALSO one,
ALSO two?

S..., your 2000s Obama birth narrative set theory position sure looks like mathematical gobbledygook.]

ajtelles said...

Cargo Cult Set Theory About the 1700s "Unity of Citizenship and Allegiance"...

2/

>> "I'd appreciate it if you would just leave off the maths---
>> it's painful watching someone who clearly has no idea
>> how embarrassing the ignorance displayed by his comments is.


[S..., yes, saying that my new best friend John Jay was implying ONLY the 2000s theory "math," the 2000s myth "math" of "ONE-U.S.-citizen-parent" and Jay was NOT implying ONLY the 1700s historical math of "TWO-U.S.-citizen-parents," that 2000s Obama birther narrative myth "math" definitely qualifies as 2000s Obama birth narrative gobbledygook.

Right?

S..., yes, "... it's painful watching someone who clearly has to idea how embarassing the ignorance displayed by his comments is."


~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

S..., your definition of "cargo cults" is limited, so here is an easy access definition from Wikipedia
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult

Metaphorical uses of the term
"The term "cargo cult" has been used metaphorically to describe an attempt to recreate successful outcomes by replicating circumstances associated with those outcomes, although those circumstances are either unrelated to the causes of outcomes or insufficient to produce them by themselves. In the former case, this is an instance of the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

"The metaphorical use of "cargo cult" was popularized by physicist Richard Feynman at a 1974 Caltech commencement speech, which later became a chapter in his book Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!, where he coined the phrase "cargo cult science" to describe activity that had some of the trappings of real science (such as publication in scientific journals) but lacked a basis in honest experimentation."

[S..., your articulation of set theory and citizenship looks like it is simply a 2000s Obama birth narrative theory, a 2000s myth, a 2000s ruse, a 2000s crafty stratagem, a 2000s subterfuge, a 2000s "post hoc ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy or a 2000s "cum hoc ergo propter hoc" logical fallacy, as is explained below from the easy to access Wikipedia.

S..., simce you are the Phd. mathematician and we are not, which is it?

S..., is the Obama-birther defense of the Obama birth narrative theory of "ONE-U.S.-citizen-parent" a "post hoc" fallacy or a "cum hoc" fallacy, or neither or BOTH?

S..., is the original birther birth narrative that is based on John Jay's underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the 1700s original public meaning that ONLY the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship ONLY of BOTH PARENTS determined the citizenship of the child, is a "post hoc" fallacy or a "cum hoc" fallacy?

S..., since my new best friend John Jay was NOT confused when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" in his note to George Washington, John Jay was NOT implying BOTH birth scenarios, but ONLY one.

Right?

BOTH parents.
Right?]

ajtelles said...

Cargo Cult Set Theory About the 1700s "Unity of Citizenship and Allegiance"...

3/

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

"Post hoc ergo propter hoc
(Latin:
"after this, therefore because of this")
is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states
"Since event Y followed event X, event Y must have been caused by event X."
It is often shortened to simply post hoc.

"It is subtly different from the fallacy
cum hoc ergo propter hoc ("with this, therefore because of this") (correlation does not imply causation),
in which two things or events occur simultaneously
or the chronological ordering is insignificant or unknown.

"Post hoc is a particularly tempting error
because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality.

"The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events,
rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection.

[S..., consider "... taking into account other factors ..." in clarifying your understanding of set theory in defense of the 2000s Obama birth narrative and the 1700s understanding of the "unity of citizeship and allegiance" as understood by 1700s original birther John Jay and original birther George Washington.]

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

S..., the fallacy in the Obama-birther 2000s theory, the 2000s myth of ONLY "one-U.S.-citizen-parent" is the presupposition that it was NOT John Jay's ONLY meaning, according to the 1700s the common law, the original public meaning, the "unity of citizenship and allegiance" understanding, that ONLY the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child was NOT John Jays ONLY meaning.

S..., the fallacy is in the presupposition that John Jay implied that "natural birth" meant ALSO and/or ONLY "ONE" parent and NOT ONLY "TWO" parents.

BOTH U.S. citizen parents ONLY.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

The set theory scam pulled by Slartibartfast and Byron Gene Olson is the following: they concede that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens. (I had to get Dr. Conspiracy to tell Slartibartfast that between subset and proper subset, the latter is the best answer as to what type of set natural born citizens is.) But they refuse to admit that natural born citizens is a proper subset of born citizens. The reason that Slartibartfast wanted to stay away from proper subset in relation to citizens is because it gets him too close for comfort to proper subset in relation to born citizens.

Simply stated, natural born citizens has to be a proper subset of not only citizens, but also born citizens because the sets are not equal. All natural born citizens are born citizens. But not all born citizens are natural born citizens. Slartibartfast and Mr. Olson make all born citizens natural born citizens so that they can include Obama and Cruz as born citizens and therefore natural born citizens. It is simply absurd to argue: if born citizen, then natural born citizen. Such an argument does not account for the qualifier “natural” and thereby denies that it has any meaning. Not giving words in the Constitution any meaning is not admissible. Marbury v. Madison (1803). Also, they have no historical or legal support for their Jack Maskell theory that all born citizens are natural born citizens. On the contrary, as I have demonstrated, the historical and legal evidence contradicts their thesis.

ajtelles said...

ooops...


In the penultimate sentence
>> "...was NOT John Jay's ONLY meaning" should have been removed.

>> "S..., the fallacy in the Obama-birther 2000s theory,
>> the 2000s myth of ONLY "one-U.S.-citizen-parent"
>> is the presupposition that it was NOT John Jay's ONLY meaning,
>> according to the 1700s the common law,
>> the original public meaning,
>> the "unity of citizenship and allegiance" understanding,
>> that ONLY the citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the citizenship of BOTH parents determined the citizenship of the child."

>> "S..., the fallacy is in the presupposition that John Jay implied that "natural birth" meant ALSO and/or ONLY "ONE" parent and NOT ONLY "TWO" parents.

BOTH U.S. citizen parents ONLY.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

ajtelles said...

"... because the sets are not equal"...

Thanks Mario, for your clarification to the "what does THAT mean" question that non-mathematicians and some PhD mathematicians have.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

"Art,

"The set theory scam pulled by Slartibartfast and Byron Gene Olson is the following:
they concede that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens.
(I had to get Dr. Conspiracy to tell Slartibartfast that between subset and proper subset,
the latter is the best answer as to what type of set natural born citizens is.)

"But they refuse to admit that natural born citizens is a proper subset of born citizens.

"The reason that Slartibartfast wanted to stay away from proper subset in relation to citizens
is because it gets him too close for comfort to proper subset in relation to born citizens.


"Simply stated,
natural born citizens has to be a proper subset
of not only citizens,
but also born citizens
because the sets are not equal.

"All natural born citizens are born citizens.
But not all born citizens are natural born citizens.

"Slartibartfast and Mr. Olson make all born citizens natural born citizens
so that they can include Obama and Cruz as born citizens and therefore natural born citizens.

"It is simply absurd to argue:
if born citizen,
then natural born citizen.

"Such an argument does not account for the qualifier “natural”
and thereby denies that it has any meaning.

"Not giving words in the Constitution any meaning is not admissible.
Marbury v. Madison (1803).

"Also, they have no historical or legal support for their Jack Maskell theory
that all born citizens are natural born citizens.
On the contrary, as I have demonstrated,
the historical and legal evidence contradicts their thesis.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

ajtelles said...

"... because the sets are not equal"...

2/

Mario, as my new best friend John Jay might say, "... because the sets are not equal" means that according to the common law, the original public meaning in 1700s America, ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents can produce a singular U.S. "citizen" child who is ALSO a "natural born Citizen" child of the "Union" because ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent father and ONE foreign citizen parent mother is NOT equal to TWO U.S. citizen parents. Although BOTH sets of parents CAN produce a U.S. citizen child, they can ONLY produce a U.S. citizen child if BOTH fathers in 1700s America are U.S. citizens before the child is born.

If one of the 1700s U.S. citizen fathers is NOT married to the mother of the child, the 1700s natural born child IS a singular "citizen" child of the "Union," but the child is NOT a 1700s "natural born Citizen" child of the "Union"

If the other of the 1700s U.S. citizen fathers IS married to the U.S. citizen mother who is a citizen by birth/marriage or only by marriage in 1700s America, the singular U.S. citizen child is ALSO a 1700s "natural born Citizen" child of the "Union."

So, John Jay might add that "... because the sets are not equal" means that ONLY the "natural born Citizen" is the proper subset of the "born citizen" because ALL "natural born Citizen" children are born to TWO U.S. citizen parents and so are also "born citizens" but NOT ALL "born citizen" children are born to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

Some "born citizen" children in 1700s America were born to ONE U.S. citizen parent and some were born to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

Some "born citizen" children in 2000s America are born to ONE U.S. citizen parent and some are born to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

After the 1922 Cable Act freed the citizenship of the wife from being dependent on the citizenship of the husband, what changed in 2000s America is the 1700s America understanding of the common law, the original public meaning that ONLY the husband determined the citizenship of the wife, AND the singular citizenship of BOTH PARENTS determined the citizenship of the child.

After the 1922 Cable Act, what did NOT change in 2000s America was the common law, the original public meaning that ONLY BOTH U.S. citizen parents determined the singular citizenship of the "born citizen" child with a "natural born Citizen" child being a proper subset of a "born citizen" child who alone is "...eligible to the Office of President."

Before or after the 1922 Cble Act, it still takes the union of TWO U.S. citizen parents to produce ONE U.S. "born citizen" child who is ALSO a U.S. "natural born Citizen" child of the "Union" since not all "born citizens" are born to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original "Birther" Document of the "Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art,

As you know, Jack Maskell believes that all born citizens, regardless of how the status may have been obtained, are natural born citizens. You also know that I have since long argued that Maskell is wrong. I have shown that since there is no historical or legal evidence supporting Maskell's thesis, he simply fallaciously reasoned that since all natural born citizens are born citizens, therefore all born citizens are natural born citizens.

Under the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, 1804, and 1855, children born in the United States to alien parents were alien born. Their alien status continued even under the Fourteenth Amendment per The Slaughterhouse Cases (1872). It was not until U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), decided in 1898, that such children became born citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment, an amendment which neither repealed nor amended Article II’s natural born citizen clause. The current laws, i.e., the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress (laws which did not exist during the passage of the Constitution) call these born citizens “citizens of the United States” at birth. They do not call them “natural born citizens.”

So, not all born citizens of today were even citizens in the past, let alone born citizens. Additionally, the very positive laws which define today’s born citizens, the Fourteenth Amendment and Act of Congress, do not call them natural born citizens.
If all born citizens of today are natural born citizens, we would not have persons who today are born citizens who were aliens in the past and only became born citizens through laws such as the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress which were passed well after the Constitution was ratified. Additionally, if all born citizens were natural born citizens, all born citizens should under the law that makes them so be called natural born citizens, but they are not.

Hence, not all born citizens are natural born citizens. Of all the born citizens, under the common law which defines a natural born citizen, only those who were born or reputed born in the United States to U.S. citizen parents at the time of the child’s birth are natural born citizens. Minor v. Happersett (1875). All the rest of the born citizens are “citizens of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment or Acts of Congress, but not natural born citizens under the common law which defines that clause. Maskell is wrong.

Unknown said...

As an aid to understanding citizenship in the United States before the Civil Rights Act of 1866, here in quotes is an opinion by Attorney General Mr. Cushing (written no later than 1857), as cited in the Report of the Royal Commissioners for Inquiring into the Laws of Naturalization and Allegiance. Page 18. Printed in 1869.


State Citizenship

Besides the rights of national citizenship conferred by naturalization, there is a minor form of state citizenship.
"The conditions of citizenship in the United States and of any one of the States are not identical; that is to say, it may happen that by the laws of a given State a person shall be a citizen thereof and still not be a citizen of the United States. Nor does it follow, because he is a citizen of a given State by the very letter of its laws, that therefore he is of every or any other State. Persons may be, and in fact are, citizens of the State of Massachusetts, that is, invested with all the rights, political and municipal, which its institutions can bestow, without being citizens of the State of Virginia or of the United States.

There are certain material advantages attached to citizenship.
"Many ordinary municipal rights are, by other laws, capable of being enjoyed by citizens alone: such as the ownership of merchant ships, the command and in part the manning of such ships, and the purchase of public lands by preemption. To this may be added that in many of the States, the right to own land within the same is, by their laws, restricted to citizens of the United States."

The report continues:
By the Laws of New York, no person can hold a civil office, or vote at elections, who is not a citizen of that State.
The right of voting at elections is restricted to national citizens in Alabama, Arkansas, Connecticut, California, Iowa, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, Maine, Ohio, Rhode Island, Tennessee, and Utah.
In Indiana and Wisconsin aliens who have declared their intention to be naturalized are admitted as electors.
In the other States all State citizens are voters.

The term of residence required varies from six months to two years, and in some States there is a property qualification.
Most emigrants therefore get themselves constituted citizens of the States in which they settle as soon as they can.
The conditions on which State citizenship is conferred vary greatly in the different States. In the more populous States the admission is restricted by regulations of greater or less severity, while in some of the Western States, and States where the capital and labour of emigrants are eagerly welcomed, the terms on which citizenship is granted are made as easy as possible. The result is, that aliens are often in the anomalous position of being citizens of a State for some time before they can become citizens of the United States.

Anonymous said...

on Findlaw.com

"First, there are people that are born in the United States, but have lived most of their lives outside of the U.S. Some of these people mistakenly believe that they may lose their citizenship and naturalization by living outside of the country for an extended period of time, but this is not true."

That was an ignorant statement that is factually asinine. One cannot lose their naturalization because it is not a thing that the have. It is a process that they go through. Like a wedding. Can you lose your wedding? Stupid! Everyone who reads something like that should have a red flag raised in their mind as their rationality meter zooms to maximum swing.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You and your Obot colleagues maintain that Minor v. Happersett’s definition of a natural born citizen is dicta because it was not necessary for the Court to inquire into the citizenship of Virginia Minor, for the parties had conceded her citizenship under the Fourteenth Amendment. But you are wrong, because a court always makes sure that it has jurisdiction and never assumes that it does simply because the parties say that it does. This statement from Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857) will explain it to you.

“This difference arises, as we have said, from the peculiar character of the Government of the United States. For although it is sovereign and supreme in its appropriate sphere of action, yet it does not possess all the powers which usually belong to the sovereignty of a nation. Certain specified powers, enumerated in the Constitution, have been conferred upon it; and neither the legislative, executive, nor judicial departments of the Government can lawfully exercise any authority beyond the limits marked out by the Constitution. And in regulating the judicial department, the cases in which the courts of the United States shall have jurisdiction are particularly and specifically enumerated and defined; and they are not authorized to take cognizance of any case which does not come within the description therein specified. Hence, when a plaintiff sues in a court of the United States, it is necessary that he should [60 U.S. 393, 402] show, in his pleading, that the suit he brings is within the jurisdiction of the court, and that he is entitled to sue there. And if he omits to do this, and should, by any oversight of the Circuit Court, obtain a judgment in his favor, the judgment would be reversed in the appellate court for want of jurisdiction in the court below. The jurisdiction would not be presumed, as in the case of a common-law English or State court, unless the contrary appeared. But the record, when it comes before the appellate court, must show, affirmatively, that the inferior court had authority, under the Constitution, to hear and determine the case. And if the plaintiff claims a right to sue in a Circuit Court of the United States, under that provision of the Constitution which gives jurisdiction in controversies between citizens of different States, he must distinctly aver in his pleading that they are citizens of different States; and he cannot maintain his suit without showing that fact in the pleadings.

This point was decided in the case of Bingham v. Cabot, (in 3 Dall., 382,) and ever since adhered to by the court. And in Jackson v. Ashton, (8 Pet., 148,) it was held that the objection to which it was open could not be waived by the opposite party, because consent of parties could not give jurisdiction.”

Id. at 401-02.

Hence, even though the parties in Minor conceded that Virginia Minor was a citizen, the Court had to make sure that she was a citizen, like the Court in Dred Scott first examined whether Dred Scott was a citizen, in order to assure itself that it had jurisdiction. Hence, you are wrong that the Court’s analysis of the citizenship question is dicta. And this is not even counting that the Court engaged in a thorough and thoughtful analysis of the citizenship question.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Wilted Rose,

On the difference between a state citizen and a natural born citizen or a citizen of the United States, we have this from Dred Scott v. Sandford (1856):

“In discussing this question, we must not confound the rights of citizenship which a State may confer within its own limits, and the rights of citizenship as a member of the Union. It does not by any means follow, because he has all the rights and privileges of a citizen of a State, that he must be a citizen of the United States. He may have all of the rights and privileges of the citizen of a State, and yet not be entitled to the rights and privileges of a citizen in any other State. For, previous to the adoption of the Constitution of the United States, every State had the undoubted right to confer on whomsoever it pleased the character of citizen, and to endow him with all its rights. But this character of course was confined to the boundaries of the State, and gave him no rights or privileges in other States beyond those secured to him by the laws of nations and the comity of States. Nor have the several States surrendered the power of conferring these rights and privileges by adopting the Constitution of the United States. Each State may still confer them upon an alien, or any one it thinks proper, or upon any class or description of persons; yet he would not be a citizen in the sense in which that word is used in the Constitution of the United States, nor entitled to sue as such in one of its courts, nor to the privileges and immunities of a citizen in the other States. The rights which he would acquire would be restricted to the State which gave them. The Constitution has conferred on Congress the right to establish an uniform rule of naturalization, and this right is evidently exclusive, and has always been held by this court to be so. Consequently, no State, since the adoption of the Constitution, can by naturalizing an alien invest him with the rights and privileges secured to a citizen of a State under the Federal Government, although, so far as the State alone was concerned, he would undoubtedly be entitled to the rights of a citizen, and clothed with all the rights and immunities which the Constitution and laws of the State attached to that character.
It is very clear, therefore, that no State can, by any act or law of its own, passed since the adoption of the Constitution, introduce a new member into the political community created by the Constitution of the United States. It cannot make him a member of this community by making him a member of its own. And for the same reason it cannot introduce any person, or description of persons, who were not intended to be embraced in this new political family, which the Constitution brought into existence, but were intended to be excluded from it.”

Id. at 405-06.

We can see from Dred Scott, decided in 1856, and the opinion by Attorney General Cushing rendered in 1857 (which you posted here) that the New York state court in Lynch v. Clarke (1844) had no power or authority to take someone who it considered to be a citizen of New York and proclaim him to be not only a citizen of the U.S., but also a natural born citizen. As I said before, Lynch simply usurped the power of Congress to determine who shall be the citizens of the U.S. and further the power of the Constitution as expressed through the American national common law who shall be the natural born citizens.

This understanding of the difference between state citizenship and national citizenship also makes the point of how the Obots erroneously conflate and confound a state citizen under colonial English common law and a national natural born citizen under American national common law. Obot Ballantine, after six years of study of this subject, still to this day erroneously uses state citizenship under some state’s common (the colonial English common law) or statutory law as providing the rules of decision for defining an Article II natural born citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast and Unknown/NotLinda/brygenon/Byron Gene Olson,

I of II

The U.S. Supreme Court in Inglis cited and quoted the English case of Acklam. Here is the quote of the Inglis Court:

“[T]he late case of Doe v. Acklam, 2 Barn. & Cresw. 779. Chief Justice Abbott says,
‘James Ludlow, the father of Frances May, the lessor of the plaintiff, was undoubtedly born a subject of Great Britain. He was born in a part of [Page 28 U. S. 122] America which was at the time of his birth a British colony and parcel of the dominions of the Crown of Great Britain; but upon the fact found, we are of opinion that he was not a subject of the Crown of Great Britain at the time of the birth of his daughter. She was born after the independence of the colonies was recognized by the Crown of Great Britain, after the colonies had become United States, and their inhabitants generally citizens of those states. And her father, by his continued residence in those states, manifestly became a citizen of them.’"

Inglis v. Trustees of Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 121-22 (1830).

The Acklam case may be read at https://archive.org/stream/englishrulingcas02camp/englishrulingcas02camp_djvu.txt .

This is an interesting cite and quote, for it contains the idea that the English courts recognized that under English statutes the father’s citizenship affected the national character of a child born in the United States after July 4, 1776. If her father had continued to be an English natural born subject up to the time of his daughter's birth in the United States after July 4, 1776, born to him in the United States, she would have been recognized under English statutory laws as an English natural born subject and capable to inherit lands in England. But because she was born to an American father, Great Britain could no longer make any claim to her allegiance which rendered her an alien in England.
The Court in Inglis also looked to the citizenship of John Inglis’s father at the time of his birth to determine whether he was British or American.

We have further confirmation that the English common law jus soli rule no longer prevailed in the United States after July 4, 1776 by the decision of the Inglis Court itself. In their concurring minority opinions, both Justice Johnson and Justice Story relied upon the English common law jus soli rule and its perpetual allegiance to declare that John Inglis was an American citizen, finding that if he was born after July 4, 1776, given that that he was born in New York, during a time that it was an American possession, regardless of the fact that he was born to a British father, he was an American citizen. So under this minority view, with John Inglis being born in the United States to a British father, he would have been both an American citizen and a natural born subject of England. The majority of the Inglis Court, which included Chief Justice John Marshall, rejected the Johnson/Story English common law minority view and its double allegiance and held that if John Inglis was born after July 4, 1776, even if he was born in New York when it was an American possession, he was still born to a British father which made him alien born and not an American citizen. So the Court held that even though Inglis may have been born in the State of New York after July 4, 1776, he was an alien because he was born to an alien father. This result is consistent with Acklam which would have held that John Inglis, born after July 4, 1776 in the United States to an English natural born subject, was an English natural born subject under English statutes.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...


II of II

Surely, if someone born in an American state after July 4, 1776 to a British father (an alien father, meaning born to alien parents) was an alien in the United States, but an English natural born subject, he or she surely could not be a natural born citizen of the United States. It is absurd to think that that jus sanguinis rule (citizenship inherited from one’s parents), confirmed by our U.S. Supreme Court in 1830, somehow changed by some unknown process later in our history prior to the Fourteenth Amendment as interpreted by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Let the Obots come forward with evidence demonstrating when and by what means such jus sanguinis rule changed prior to Wong Kim Ark.
Note that Lynch v. Clarke (1844) avoided the holding in Inglis by telling us that the case only dealt with special cases involving the American Revolution. This is pure bunk. Also, Wong Kim Ark avoided Inglis by telling us only about the Story minority opinion and ignoring what the majority had clearly held. This is pure intellectual dishonesty.

I have so much to say about both Inglis (good things) and Lynch (bad things), but this will do for now.

So, will you meet my challenge and provide the evidence which demonstrates that the jus sanguinis rule confirmed in Inglis, i.e., a child born in the United States to alien parents was alien born, somehow changed later in our history prior to the Fourteenth Amendment as interpreted by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). Be sure to include in your answer when the change occurred and by what means or mechanism the change was effected.

P.S. Mr. Olson, I have included you in my challenge, assuming that you want to discuss the real issues regarding a natural born citizen rather than just whine about how I do not post some of your silly comments here which are nothing more than your incessantly telling us that some present-day lower courts do not agree with me.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

I of III

We have this comment from Dr. Conspiracy at Café con Leche Republicans:

“No, I wouldn’t agree that the Constitution is best interpreted according to the Declaration of Independence. Thomas Jefferson wasn’t even at the 1787 Federal Convention. Americans and the British shared many core values. Many of the authors of the Constitution were lawyers who practiced the English Common Law–it was the language they understood and wrote. In fact, by the time the Constitution was ratified, every state had in one form or another adopted the English Common Law. It has been said many times by the US Supreme Court that undefined terms in the US Constitution are understood in reference to the English Common Law. (See Ex Parte Grossman, Ludlam v. Ludlam, Smith v. Alabama, US v. Wong).”

And here is my response which I posted there:

Our U.S. Supreme Court has stated that we are to look to the common law to help us interpret the Constitution. When it comes to defining an Article II “natural born citizen,” you automatically default to the English common law for its definition. But the common law of which the Supreme Court has spoken is not only the English common law, for we also have American national common law.

Upon separation from Great Britain, so as to maintain a civil society, the states selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures. English common law was used to resolve state issues involving real estate, inheritance, contracts, torts, obligations, crimes, etc. Hence, the Framers saw the states looking to the English common law as a source from which to derive rules of decision to resolve state issues. But the Framers did not foresee the national government using English common law to resolve national problems. Rather, they anticipated that the law of nations, national common law, Acts of Congress, and treaties would be used for such purposes.

When the Constitution was adopted in 1787 and ratified in 1788, there were no Acts of Congress yet passed which defined citizenship in the United States. Hence, when the Framers inserted the natural born citizen clause into the Constitution, they had to look to some other law for their definition of the clause. That law was the common law. But was it English common law or American common law? To what common law we look to interpret the Constitution depends upon whether we are dealing with a state issues or a national issue. So to what law did the Framers look to define a natural born citizen?

You maintain that a natural born citizen is defined by colonial English common law. I maintain that it is defined by American national common law, which took its citizenship principles from the law of nations. See Emer de Vattel, Section 212, The Law of Nations (1758) (1797) (“The citizens are the members of the civil society: bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”). I say American national common law because citizenship of the United States is a national issue, not a state one.

Under the English common law, a child born in the King’s dominion and under his allegiance, even if born to alien parents, provided they were neither foreign diplomats nor military invaders, was an English natural-born subject. The English common law was used to define subjectship in the colonies. It may also have been used to define state citizenship after July 4, 1776. But the English common law was not used to resolve national issues and specifically not to define national citizenship which included the national character of natural born citizen and citizen of the United States.

Continued . . .

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