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Friday, July 19, 2013

The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause: A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter







The Constitution, the Rule of Law, and the “Natural Born Citizen” Clause:  A Response to Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter

By Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013











Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter (“Squeeky Fromm”) continues in vain to try to persuade the public that she has refuted my position that an Article II “natural born Citizen” is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

I.                 
   
Squeeky Fromm has taken a stab at my Jack Maskell article, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlYou can read her response here. http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/08/he-says-apuzzo-i-say-a-pazzo/

She says that I have misread
Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162 (1875), because the Court said that “new citizens may be born or they may be created by naturalization.” I say, so what in light of the fact that the Court also said: “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  Id. at 167-68.  Hence, the Court said that at common law, if one was not born in the country to citizen parents, one was an “alien or foreigner.” This is the same exact treatment that Congress gave to children born in the United States to alien parents in its Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855. In these acts, Congress treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and in need of naturalization.  So Squeeky Fromm has proven nothing other than to show that she does not understand what she reads.

Then Squeeky Fromm turns to my logical analysis of the Maskell fallacious argument. In the first part of her attempt at logic, it is quite clear that she has totally missed my point about Maskell’s first argument being invalid. I showed that Maskell’s first argument as having this invalid logical form (“natural born Citizen”=NBC; “citizen at birth”=CAB):

All NBCs are CABs.
All X’s are CABs.
Therefore, all X’s are NBC.

To show the invalidity of this argument, I wrote:

All poodles are dogs.
Bubbles is a dog.
Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Squeeky Fromm says that this argument is not valid and faults me for presenting it. She misstates my presentation, even attempting to prove me wrong by showing through some other irrelevant logical argument why this argument is not valid. I said that this is the argument presented by Maskell.  But I said that this is Maskell’s argument and that it is not valid because it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. So, what is ironic is that Squeeky Fromm attacks me, in her twisted and incorrect way, for the argument when what she is really doing is attacking Jack Maskell.

Then Squeeky Fromm takes a shot at the second part of my analysis of the Maskell argument.  I recast his argument as follows to make the argument valid: 

All CAB’s are NBCs.
All X’s are CAB’s.
Therefore, all X’s are NBCs.

In my article, I explained that I took Maskell’s invalid argument (above) and made it valid through this logical form. I did this to show where Maskell’s informal fallacy is hidden. I showed how this argument is logically valid, but unsound because its major premise, All CAB’s are NBCs, is false. I explained that Maskell has not presented any evidence to prove the truth of this major premise. I presented U.S. Supreme Court case law which addressed the meaning of a “natural-born citizen” and this case law does not support Maskell’s thesis that all “citizens at birth” are “natural-born citizens.” See below for a summary of these cases.  And even though Squeeky Fromm comes to Maskell’s aid, she also does not present any evidence to show that Maskell’s major premise, as reconstructed by me, would be true. What she does in place of presenting any evidence that the major premise is true is just to say that the premise does not strike her “as being facially incorrect, invalid, or untrue.” From this statement we can see that Squeeky Fromm has very little understanding of informal logic and fallacies. An informal fallacy has the exact facial appeal that she relies upon. But when its underlying truth is tested, it fails.

I have demonstrated how Maskell has not proven that his major premise is true. I have also presented evidence that shows that his major premise is false. I have therefore unmasked the informal fallacy of the Maskell major premise, i.e., that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Yet, Squeeky Fromm says that I have proven nothing. On the contrary, she is the one who just says a lot of mixed up nothing, demonstrates how incapable she is of understanding case law, and proves how ignorant she is when it comes to logic.
II.                 
In her June 12, 2013 “Distributed Muddle” article, accessed at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ ,
Squeeky Fromm tries to persuade that she successfully addressed my criticisms of Congressional Attorney Jack Maskell’s thesis (his major premise) that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  From her article we can see that she is starting to understand the world of logic a little better. But she does not admit the blunder that she made with the first part of my logical presentation in which I expose why to argue, that since all “natural born Citizen” are “citizens at birth,” and since Barack Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born Citizen,” is logically invalid.  We have to recognize this argument and show that it is invalid because it is one of the means by which Maskell arrives at his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

Second, Squeeky Fromm, underplays the second part of my logical analysis where I show, by converting Maskell’s invalid argument into a valid argument, that Maskell’s second argument is unsound because the major premises is false.  Maskell’s second argument can only be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens,” and since Obama is a “citizen at birth,” he is a “natural born citizen.”  Maskell’s major premise in this argument would be all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens.” Squeeky Fromm fails to understand the importance of the maneuver of taking someone’s invalid argument and making valid. It is done to show that if the argument is to succeed, then its premises must be true. And it is here that I have shown that Maskell’s major premise is false and therefore also his conclusion that Obama is a “natural born citizen.”    

Squeeky Fromm just blows this point off by simply saying that there is just a disagreement between Maskell and me on the definition of a “natural born Citizen.” Now is that not just genius for Squeeky Fromm to figure out. I have challenged both Maskell and Squeeky Fromm to provide evidence that Maskell’s major premise is true. We do not hear from Maskell nor do we expect to.  And from Squeeky Fromm, who loves to make herself heard on a daily basis, she simply says that
United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649 (1898) trumps Minor. So there you have the strength of their argument which is supposed to prove that Maskell’s major premise is true. We know that Minor defined a “natural-born citizen” as a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. And we also know that Wong Kim Ark, interpreting the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment and its “subject to the jurisdiction” clause, and ultimately defining a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment, did not alter Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” and even distinguished a “natural-born citizen” from a “citizen of the United States” at birth under that amendment.  Squeeky Fromm is just making stuff up given that she has nothing else to present to us which would show that the Maskell major premises is true. 

So, Maskell’s first argument, that since Obama is a “citizen at birth” he is a “natural born Citizen” is not valid. And his second argument which necessarily contains the major premise, all “citizens at birth” are “natural born Citizens,” has no historical and legal support. Hence, Maskell’s argument, no matter which one we choose as to what is a “natural born Citizen” and whether Obama meets that definition, is false. 

III.              

Squeeky Fromm also comes to the aid of Ted Cruz in her June 25, 2013 article published at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/25/with-2020-foresight-the-once-and-future-apuzzo/ In this piece, which she passes off as a decision against me rendered by an imaginary judge, she argues, albeit without any historical or legal support, that my definition of a “natural born citizen,” i.e., a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth is wrong.  She maintains that Cruz, who was born in Canada to a non-U.S. “citizen” father and a U.S. “citizen” mother is a “natural born citizen.” 

She attempts to dismiss Minor as being irrelevant to the issue of both Obama and Cruz’s eligibility, arguing that Minor did not define or deal with children born inside the United States to alien parents. This is incorrect. Minor told us that at common law with which the Framers were familiar, such children were “aliens or foreigners.” Here is the quote from the Court:  “At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”  We can see from what the Court said that at common law if a child was born in the United States to alien parents, the child was an “alien or foreigner.”  It also follows from this common law rule that at common law (not to be confounded with statutes), any child who was born out of the United States, regardless of whether born to “citizen” parents or alien parents, was also an alien or foreigner.  This common law rule was reflected in Congress’s Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855 which treated children born in the United States to alien parents as alien born and naturalized at birth children born out of the United States to “citizen” parents or naturalized them after birth if born to alien parents.  

She states that the clause “natural born citizen” “was discussed at length in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark.” This is false. Wong Kim Ark discussed at length the English common law and an English “natural born subject.” The English common law defined neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen.”  Justice Swayne in United States v. Rhodes, 27 F. Cas. 785 (Cir.Ct. D. Ky. 1866) (No. 16,151), told us that neither a “citizen” nor a “natural born citizen” were defined by the English common law. The court said that “British jurisprudence, whence so much of our own is drawn, throws little light upon the subject.  . . . Blackstone and Tomlin contain nothing upon the subject. ”  Id. at 788.  So, Wong Kim Ark, which spent much time on analyzing the English common law, could not have been analyzing the meaning of a “natural born citizen” which clause was not even found in that law. 

Squeeky Fromm quotes Wong Kim Ark’s comment that the English common law jus soli rule continued “to prevail under the Constitution as originally established.” This statement does not prove that a “natural born citizen” was defined under English common law and not under the law of nations. What this statement means is that through the time of the adoption of the Constitution, the states, which selectively adopted the English common law until abrogated by state legislatures, decided who their citizens were and that they to some undefined degree used the jus soli English common law rule to make that decision. These state citizens became “citizens of the United States” upon the adoption of the Constitution. But then in 1790, Congress passed the Naturalization Act of 1790, followed by that of 1795, 1802, and 1855. After that, the states, to whatever degree they still applied the English common law, could no longer naturalize anyone after birth and their state citizens were no longer recognized as national citizens or what the Constitution called “citizens of the United States.” The only common law rule that Congress did not nor could abrogate was that of the law of nations/American national common law which the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers used to certainly and uniformly define a “natural born citizen.” And that definition was a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.

Squeeky Fromm repeats that “citizens at birth” are equivalent to “natural born citizens.”  But like Jack Maskell, she begs the question that all “citizens at birth” are “natural born citizens.” Other than just assuming, like Jack Maskell, that her statement is true, she fails to provide any evidence that her statement is true. Hence, that the Fourteenth Amendment or a Congressional Act might declare someone born either in the United States or out of it to be a “citizen at birth” does not prove that that person is a “natural born citizen.”

She argues that Ted Cruz is a “natural born citizen” under 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(g).  Here, she makes the absurd argument that Cruz is a “natural born citizen” by way of a naturalization act of Congress.  Using her logic, the “natural born citizen” clause would have no meaning or limits if Congress could simply naturalize anyone at birth which Squeeky Fromm then considers to be a “natural born citizen.”  She looks to the Naturalization Act of 1790 for support. Regarding whether children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents are “natural-born citizens,” the Naturalization Act of 1790 does not help Squeeky Fromm because the 1795 Act, with the work of James Madison, repealed it and replaced “natural born citizen” with “citizen of the United States.” Despite her statement that Congress never did so, the 1795 Act, with James Madison’s influence, plainly shows from its text that “Congress intended to limit the rights of foreign born citizens at birth to some quanta less than that of a natural born citizen.” Furthermore, Wong Kim Ark informed us that the Fourteenth Amendment “has not touched the acquisition of citizenship by being born abroad of American parents, and has left that subject to be regulated, as it had always been, by Congress in the exercise of the power conferred by the Constitution to establish an uniform rule of naturalization.” So, Wong Kim Ark told us that children born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents become “citizens at birth” under Congress’s naturalization powers. That means they are naturalized at birth. By her own concession, if they are naturalized, they cannot be “natural born citizens,” regardless of when they obtain their citizenship.

Squeeky Fromm puts forth a straw man argument, arguing that it is an injustice that the children born abroad to our military should be denied the status of “natural born citizens.”  But she misstates my position on that issue.  I have always argued, under Vattel’s Section 217, a child born out of the United States to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the defense of the United States (“the armies of the state”) is reputed born in the United States and therefore a “natural born citizen.” This rule makes John McCain, who was born to U.S. “citizen” parents serving the U.S. national defense, a “natural born citizen” regardless of where in Panama he may have been born.

Squeeky Fromm argues that my position that if Congress makes one a “citizen” at birth, then Congress naturalized that person to be a “citizen” at birth is absurd because Congress in 8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401(a) passed a statute which also acts upon the “natural born citizens.”  But that Congress may choose to pass a statute acting upon “natural born citizens” does not make those persons naturalized citizens.  Those persons are “natural born citizen” and they do not lose that status because Congress may pass a naturalization statute which also acts upon them. 

Squeeky Fromm engages in an invalid logical argument, arguing: All "natural born citizens" are "citizens at birth," and since Ted Cruz is a "citizen at birth," he is a "natural born Citizen." As I have shown above, this argument violates the rule of the undistributed middle. It is also fallacious for affirming the consequent. As I have already explained, Jack Maskell commits the same logical errors.  She also commits logical error when she argues: All “natural born citizens are not naturalized citizens. Since Ted Cruz is not a naturalized citizen, he is a “natural born citizen.” She does not understand that we cannot arrive at an affirmative conclusion by way of one or two negative premises. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that “natural born citizens” are not naturalized citizens. Citizens “may be born or they may be created by naturalization.”  She adds that Cruz is a “born citizen” and not a naturalized citizen. She concludes that since he is “born a citizen” and not naturalized, he must be a “natural born citizen.”  Her argument fails because she does not account for how “born citizens” are made. “Born citizens” may be made by American national common law, by the Fourteenth Amendment, or by Acts of Congress. Per Minor, only the ones made by American national common law are “natural-born citizens.” Those made by the Fourteenth Amendment and Acts of Congress are “citizens of the United States” at birth. So, as we can see, just being a “born citizen” or “citizen at birth” does not automatically make one a “natural born citizen.”

Squeeky Fromm’s argument that since parentage is irrelevant for “citizens at birth” under the Fourteenth Amendment, therefore it must also be irrelevant for “natural born citizens” fails for at least two reasons. First, as I have shown above, there are different types of “citizens at birth,” and that parentage might not be relevant to one type does not mean it is not relevant to another type (which is the “natural born citizen” type). 


Squeeky Fromm begs the question that the Fourteenth Amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” She may say it, but she does not prove it. Actually, the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  Why do I say that the Fourteenth Amendment is a red herring when it comes to defining an Article II “natural born Citizen?”  People like Squeeky Fromm love to use the Fourteenth Amendment as support in the “natural born Citizen” debate.  The amendment provides them with a moral argument for their definition of a “natural born Citizen” which has a great appeal with the American public.   That moral appeal is based on the history and purpose of the amendment.  We cannot forget that Congress passed the amendment as part of its Reconstruction after the Civil War.  It was to guarantee, among various things, the freed slaves citizenship through birth in the United States.  The amendment was designed to put an end for good to the Dred Scott decision, which had denied freed blacks the right to U.S. citizenship.  The amendment made sure that no state could abridge the privileges and immunities enjoyed by “citizens of the United States.”  The amendment also introduced the concept of due process as the protector of life, liberty, and property from abusive state action (the Fifth Amendment prohibits the federal government from depriving one of due process), and obligated the states to extend equal protection of the laws to any person present within its jurisdiction.  The Amendment came to be used as a primary tool to combat racism and discrimination, not only against blacks, but all people who suffered such illegal activities at the hands of any state.  So the amendment is not only connected to citizenship, but it is also supposed to protect our freedom and secure many rights of the individual.  With all that, the amendment packs a strong emotional punch.  So, people like Squeeky Fromm have found a great friend in the Fourteenth Amendment in their attempt to convince people that the amendment defines a “natural born citizen.” 

The problem for Squeeky Fromm is that while the amendment defines two classes of citizenship, federal and state, and has done great things for protecting life, liberty, and property, and the civil rights of all persons present on American territory, it has nothing to do with defining a “natural born Citizen.”  But that surely does not stop Squeeky Fromm from using the amendment when it comes to providing us with a definition of a “natural born Citizen.”  After all, how could she pass it up after all it has done for the betterment of American society?  So people like Squeeky Fromm will continue to tell the public how could anyone dare believe that a “natural born citizen” is not defined by that amendment which does so much to protect our American way of life. 

But the simple truth is that Squeeky Fromm conflates and confounds a “citizen” under the amendment with an Article II “natural born citizen.”  Anyone who will just stop and read the amendment can readily see that it does not even mention the clause “natural born Citizen.”  Rather, it mentions “citizen of the United States,” which citizenship status Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 tells us is no longer sufficient for one to be eligible to be President today.  If one also looks further into the amendment, one will learn that it neither repealed nor amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause and therefore left that clause to be defined as it had always been defined under American national common law.  And that definition is, as confirmed by the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor and the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark, a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth. 

Squeeky Fromm argues that there is no sign of Emer de Vattel post Wong Kim Ark and therefore Vattel is dead. This is false. Minor’s definition of a “natural-born citizen,” being a paraphrase of Vattel’s
The Law of Nations (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758), comes from Vattel. Wong Kim Ark did not disturb that definition nor did it have to in order to find that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. Nor has any other decision of the U.S. Supreme Court. Hence, Vattel still lives and reigns after Wong Kim Ark and even to the present.

Squeeky Fromm also fails to understand this fundamental truth--that one becomes at once a “citizen at birth” and does not need naturalization does not mean that one was not naturalized. See Calvin’s Case (1608) which was decided in England in 1608. That case proves that being a “citizen at birth” can entail having been naturalized at birth which necessarily excludes one from being a true “natural born citizen.” Calvin was born to Scottish parents in the country of Scotland, after 1603, the year in which the English throne under the Tudor dynasty descended to the Stuart King, James VI of Scotland, making him James I, King of both England and Scotland. Since Calvin was born after 1603, he was considered a postnati. The English Parliament for political and social reasons refused to naturalize the Scottish Calvin as an English “natural born subject” by statute. Since Parliament would not naturalize him by statute, it was decided by the King’s men that they would get the courts to do so by common law (judge made law). Lord Coke found that under natural law Calvin at birth, having been born in the King’s dominion (Scotland), owed natural allegiance to James as King of England and Scotland, by owing that allegiance to the natural body (as distinguished from his political body and the laws of England that came with it) of the King who reigned over both kingdoms. So because Calvin owed natural allegiance to the natural body of the King and that natural King also ruled over England, Lord Coke found that Calvin also owed allegiance to the King as King of England. So it did not matter that Calvin at birth was not bound by the laws of England. What mattered was that by natural law he was bound by natural allegiance to the King who also ruled over England. Lord Coke then, from the single circumstance of Calvin being born in the King’s dominion, naturalized Calvin at birth vis-a'-vis England and ruled that he was a “natural born subject” of England. Calvin’s Scottish parents (the antenati) were eventually naturalized by statute as English subjects. Calvin’s case proves the fundamental rule that gaining subject status at birth under the English common law rather than a statute does not prove that one is a “natural born citizen,” for that status was gained through judicial naturalization at birth  See also Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 214 Naturalisation (1758) (correctly understanding Calvin’s Case said: “Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalises the children of a foreigner”); Wong Kim Ark (said that persons who are born abroad to U.S “citizen” parents and who are U.S. citizens at birth are nevertheless so naturalized by Congressional Acts; Rogers v. Bellei, 401 U.S. 815(1971) (considers persons born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who are citizens at birth to be naturalized at birth; J. Black dissenting in Bellei also said: "All means of obtaining American citizenship which are dependent on congressional enactment are forms of naturalization"). 

IV.         
     
On July 14, 2013, Squeeky Fromm took another jab at my Jack Maskell refutation.  She says: 
“You see the same thing when Mario Apuzzo, Esq. tries to cobble Logical Syllogisms into his Birther legal theories when such techniques are totally inappropriate in situations where the major premises themselves which [sic] are at issue. (See Note 1, below.)

Note 1. For an example of Apuzzo’s sashay into Putative Pedantics, see:http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/mario-apuzzo-esq-s-distributed-muddle/ .”
Squeeky Fromm read my article entitled , The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,”  accessed at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-fallacies-of-congressional.htmlShe learned something about logic from my article.  Now she attempts to use that little bit that she learned to sound authoritative and show that she won the argument.  

I clearly stated the two possible sources for Jack Maskell’s erroneous conclusion that Barack Obama is a “natural born citizen.”   

The first source rests on invalid logical argument.  We can all agree on the statement that all “natural born citizens” are born citizens.  From this truism, Maskell wants us to believe that since Barack Obama is a born citizen, he is also a “natural born citizen.”  This is a logically invalid argument.  It is as invalid as arguing that all poodles are dogs, and since Bubbles is a dog, Bubbles is a poodle.  The fallacy is clear to see once identified.  The problem with these fallacious arguments is in recognizing them when someone is trying to give us a snow job. 

The second source is based on unsound logical argument.  An argument can be logically valid but unsound (false).  This occurs when the argument is valid as to its form, but upon investigation, one learns that either the major or minor premise is false which produces a false conclusion.  In my article, I took Maskell’s invalid argument and made it into a valid one by presenting it in a valid logical form.  Thus I produced: 

All born citizens are “natural born citizens.”    
Obama is a born citizen.
Therefore, Obama is a “natural born citizen.” 

I demonstrated that while this argument is valid as to its form, it is unsound because the major premise, All born citizens are “natural born citizens,” is false.  It is false because the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers wrote “natural born citizen,” not “born citizen.”  It is false because just being born a citizen has never been the test for being a “natural born citizen.”  The expression born citizen does not tell us how one becomes a born citizen.  It does not tell us who shall be said to be a born citizen.  It does not tell us what the facts and circumstances are which the definition of a “natural born citizen” states are necessary and sufficient to make one a born citizen and therefore a “natural born citizen.”  No U.S. Supreme Court has ever defined a “natural born citizen” by saying that anyone who is a born citizen is a “natural born citizen.”  There simply is no U.S. Supreme Court case that supports such a proposition.  Congress has never defined a “natural born citizen” as simply anyone who is born a citizen.  In other words, neither Jack Maskell nor anyone else has presented historical and legal evidence which demonstrates that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”  On the contrary, I have shown that there has only ever been one definition of a “natural born citizen” and that is a child born in the country to parents who were its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth.  This definition is, indeed, a real definition, for it provides those facts and circumstance which must be met in order for one to be a “natural born citizen.” 

Squeeky Fromm also tells us that no one ever heard of Emer de Vattel and that he is a non-figure when it comes to defining a “natural born citizen.”  She adds: 

“1. Most of us have some memory of high school civics class, and no memory whatsoever of anybody called Emer de Vattel. The Birthers try to supplant our non-existent memory with false memories of Vattel and his alleged two citizen parents theory of natural born citizenship. There are actually some people who now claim to remember being taught about Vattel in this light, and absolutely NO TEXTBOOKS which support that memory.”

Apart from all the extant historical evidence which proves Squeeky Fromm to be wrong about the definition of a “natural born citizen” and Vattel’s connection to that definition, there are numerous cases which show her to be wrong.  See: 

1.         Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 Citizens and natives (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758):  “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.’” 

2.         The Venus, 12 U.S. 8 Cranch 253, 289 (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring):  “Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says ‘The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes [having equivalent meaning to "natural-born citizens”] are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.’”  

3.         Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99 (1830): 

“II. The second general question is, whether John Inglis, the demandant, was or was not capable of taking lands in the state of New York by descent.

This question is presented under several aspects, for the purpose of meeting what at present from the evidence appears a little uncertain, as to the time of the birth of John Inglis. This question as here presented, does not call upon the court for an opinion upon the broad doctrine of allegiance and the right of expatriation, under a settled and unchanged state of society and government. But to decide what are the rights of the individuals composing that society, and living under the protection of that government, when a revolution occurs; a dismemberment takes place; new governments are formed; and new relations between the government and the people are established.”

After stating that the English common law broad allegiance no longer applied to the new America after the Revolution, it held:  


“2. If born [in New York] after the 4th of July 1776, and before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, his infancy incapacitated him from making any election for himself, and his election and character followed that of his father, subject to the right of disaffirmance in a reasonable time after the termination of his minority; which never having been done, he remains a British subject, and disabled from inheriting the land in question.” 

Inglis v. Sailors’ Snug Harbor, 28 U.S. 99, 120-27, 3 Pet. 99. (1830). Rejecting the English common law jus soli rule and the rule of perpetual allegiance that may have prevailed in a state unless abrogated by statute and used for deciding questions of inheritance of lands located within a state’s jurisdiction, which rules were adopted by Justice Johnson and Justice Story in their concurring opinions, and rather adopting the national jus sanguinis rule of the law of nations, the Court held that if the child was born in New York when it was a new state to alien parents, the child followed the condition of his alien father, which could have been cast off at the age of majority, and never having been done the son was therefore neither a “natural born Citizen” nor a “citizen of the United States,” but rather alien born.  So, even though the child was born in New York after the Revolution, the U.S. Supreme Court, regardless of what the common or statutory law of New York might have been on the subject of allegiance, still ruled that the child was alien born, because the father was an alien at the time of the child’s birth. 

4.        Shanks v. Dupont, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830):  As we saw above, in Inglis, Justice Story was in the minority on the question of whether the demandant was a citizen of the State of New York and thus a U.S. citizen.  Relying upon the English common law jus soli rule, he had ruled that if born in New York after July 4, 1776, but before the 15th of September of the same year, when the British took possession of New York, he was a U.S. citizen even though his father was a British subject.  But in Shanks, which was decided after Inglis, he accepted that the American Revolution changed the rules of allegiance in the new America and changed his position on allegiance and U.S. citizenship.  Here he started by saying: 


“After the elaborate opinions expressed in the case of Inglis vs. The Trustees of the Sailor’s Snug Harbour, ante p. 99, upon the question of alienage, growing out of the American Revolution; it is unnecessary to do more in delivering the opinion of the court in the present case, than to state, in a brief manner, the grounds on which our decision is founded.”

Justice Story, adopting the Inglis majority position which rejected the jus soli (citizenship through place of birth) of the English common law and accepted the jus sanguinis (citizenship inherited from parents) of the law of nations, then went on to explain: 

“If she was not of age, then she might well be deemed under the circumstances of this case to hold the citizenship of her father, for children born in a country, continuing while under age in the family of the father, partake of his national character as a citizen of that country.” Justice Johnson, dissenting for other reasons, said that Ann Scott (married Ann Shanks) “was a native born citizen of South Carolina, daughter of a native born citizen of North Carolina,” and that her being a citizen of South Carolina at the moment of her birth was established by the “leading maxim[] of common law,” “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means “the offspring follows the condition of the father.” Black’s Law Dictionary 1091 (5th ed. 1979).

5.         Barry v. Mercein, 46 U. S. 103 (1847):  Argument of counsel for John A. Barry, a British “natural born subject:”

“4.  The plaintiff in error being of legeance to the crown of England, his child, though born in the United States during his father’s temporary residence therein – twenty-two months and twenty days – not withstanding its mother be an American citizen, is not a citizen of the United States. It is incapacitate by its infancy from making any present election, follows the legeance of its father, partus sequitur patrem, and is a British subject. The father being domiciled and resident within the dominions of Her Britannic Majesty, such is also the proper and rightful domicil of his wife and child, and he has a legal right to remove them thither. The child being detained from the father, its natural guardian and protector, without authority of law, and writ of habeas corpus ad subjiciendum is his appropriate legal remedy for its restoration to him from its present illegal detention and restraint. Constitution United States, art. 3, sec. 2; Judiciary Act, 1789, sec. 11; Inglis v. Trustees Sailor’s Snug Harbor, 3 Peters, 99; 7 Anne, cap. 5; 4 Geo. III. cap. 21; Warrender v. Warrender, 2 Clar. & Fin. Ap. Ca. 523; Story’s Confl. Laws, 30, 36, 43, 74, 160; Shelford on Marriage, Ferg. Rep. 397, 398.” 

6.         Dred Scott v. Sandford, 60 U.S. 393, 476-77 (1857) (J. Daniel concurring):  The decision only dealt with the question of whether Dred Scott was a “citizen of the United States.”  Nevertheless, Justice Daniel, concurring, defined a “natural born citizen.” While as repugnant as slavery was and still is, no court or amendment has over turned the meaning of “natural-born citizen” from Dred Scott as described by Justice Daniel nor has there ever been a need to do so.  The main point is that in deciding what a "citizen" was in 1856, both the majority and dissent went back to 1787 to examine what the Framers and the people of that time considered a "citizen" to be.  The Court said that the Constitution must be understood now as it was understood at the time it was written.  The judges did not disagree that one had to look back to the Founders.  What they disagreed on is what the public opinion was at that time as to whether a freed slave was a “citizen.”  In this regard, we know that the Court’s holding that freed slaves were not “citizens of the United States” was overruled by the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Thirteenth (ratified in 1865) and Fourteenth (ratified in 1868) Amendment, none of which repealed or amended Article II’s “natural born Citizen” clause. 

As to the “natural born Citizen” clause, Justice Daniel said: 
           
“The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages.  The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.  As society cannot perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their parents, and succeed to all their rights.”  Again:  I say, to be of the country, it is necessary to be born of a person who is a citizen; for if he be born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.” 

(quoting and citing Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Section 212 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758)).  It should be noted that Justice Daniel took out of Vattel’s definition the reference to “fathers” and “father” and replaced it with “parents” and “person,” respectively.  It is true that it was only Justice Daniel in his concurrence that defined a “natural born Citizen” the way he did.  But on more than one occasion, the United States Supreme Court has defined what a "natural born Citizen" is.  Justice Daniel’s definition of a “natural born Citizen” was first confirmed by Chief Justice John Marshall in The Venus (1814) and later confirmed by the unanimous Court in Minor and both the majority and dissent in Wong Kim Ark.  To this day, that definition has never been changed.    


7.         Minor v. Happersett, 88 U.S. 162, 168-170 (1875):  The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court explained:  “The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens."  Hence, the Court said that neither the original Constitution nor the Fourteenth Amendment (ratified in 1868) defined a "natural born citizen." In fact, there is nothing in the text of or debates on the Fourteenth Amendment which in any way suggests that it amended Article II and its "natural born citizen" clause.  The Court said that the Amendment did not add to the privileges and immunities enjoyed by the people prior to the adoption of that Amendment.  We know that these privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of a state had been protected from state deprivation by Article IV and privileges and immunities enjoyed as a citizen of the United States were now also protected from state abridgement by the Fourteenth Amendment.  Hence, the Amendment could not have granted the privilege and right of being elected to the Office of President to persons who did not have that privilege and right prior to its adoption. 
 

The Court then further explained that since the Constitution did not provide the meaning of a "natural born citizen,"    

"[r]esort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that.  At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.  Some authorities go further and include as citizens children born within the jurisdiction without reference to the citizenship of their [p168] parents. As to this class there have been doubts, but never as to the first. For the purposes of this case it is not necessary to solve these doubts. It is sufficient for everything we have now to consider that all children born of citizen parents within the jurisdiction are themselves citizens. ”

Id. at 167-68. 

Hence, a child born in a country to parents who were its “citizens” was not only a “citizen” like them, but also a “natural-born citizen,” which maybe his or her parents were not.  Under that same common law, all the rest of the people were "aliens or foreigners," who the Court later explained could become "citizens of the United States" by satisfying naturalization Acts of Congress or maybe the Fourteenth Amendment.  The Court also sua sponte  stated that "some authorities" went further and included as "citizens"  children "born within the jurisdiction" to alien parents.  The Court said that while "there have been doubts" about whether such children born  in the United States to alien parents were "citizens," there never had been any doubts that children born in the country to citizens parents, who the Court called "natural-born citizens," were "citizens."  So the Court basically said that with the "natural born citizens," there were no doubts that they were "citizens."  But with non-"natural born citizens," such as children born in the United States to alien parents, who could look to no other law other than the Fourteenth Amendment to gain U.S. citizenship status, there could be doubts about whether they were even just "citizens." So, exactly from where did the citizenship doubts to which the Court was referring come? They surely did not come from the English common law which based on birthright, naturalized at birth as "natural-born subjects" children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  So the Court could not have been looking to the English common law for its definition of a "natural born citizen," for that law provided no doubt as to the "natural-born subject" status of children born in the King's dominion to alien parents.  Also, the Court's doubts could not have come from the common law to which the Court said the Framers looked for their definition of a "natural born citizen," for under that common law there was no doubt that such children were not "natural born citizens."  Rather, those doubts came from the new Fourteenth Amendment and its ambiguous "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause, which the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) (virtually the same Court as the Minor Court) said excluded from U.S. citizenship children born in the United States to alien parents.  So these Fourteenth Amendment potential citizens could not be "natural born citizens" under Minor's formulation, for there was no doubt that they did not meet its common law definition of the clause. They also could not even just be "citizens of the United States" under the English common law, for that law had no application in national U.S. citizenship.  The doubts were whether they could be plain "citizens of the United States" under the Fourteenth Amendment. With Virginia Minor being born in the country to "citizen" parents and thus a "natural born citizen," which without any doubt made her a "citizen" and therefore qualified to receive the privileges and immunities available under Article IV and the protection of the Fourteenth Amendment (which the Court eventually held did not include the right to vote), Minor said that it was not necessary to resolve the question that it raised about Fourteenth Amendment citizenship.   U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) eventually resolved this question.  See my discussion below on Wong Kim Ark. 

 
8.         Ex parte Reynolds, 20 F.Cas. 582, 5 Dill. 394, No. 11,719 (C.C.W.D.Ark 1879):  The Circuit Court of the Western District of Arkansas explained:

“[W]hen the question arises as to what people a person belongs, what rule is to govern in the solution of the problem?

There is no statute law on the subject. We find that the question before the country at one time, as to who was a white person and who was a member of the African race, was solved by legislative or       constitutional enactments defining the nationality of persons according to the quantum of white or African blood in the veins of the persons.

These laws were all enactments of the states, and had reference to the African race alone. The United States never had any statute law on the subject (and has not now) with regard to persons who are not subject to its jurisdiction. Now, in this case, as the 38th article of the treaty only permits an American citizen, or a white person, to expatriate himself -- to throw off his allegiance to the government of the United States -- and place himself beyond the jurisdiction of its courts by marriage to a Choctaw and residence in their country, we must somewhere find a rule to define who is a Choctaw, in [**15]  a case where there is mixed parentage. Does the quantum of Indian blood in the veins of the party determine the fact as to whether such party is of the white or Indian race? If so, how much Indian blood does it take to make an Indian, or how much white blood to make a person a member of the body politic known as American citizens? Where do we find any rule on the subject which makes the quantum of blood the standard of nationality? Certainly not from the statute law of the United States; nor is it to be found in the common law. In the case of United States v. Sanders [Case No. 16,220], the court held that the quantum of Indian blood in the veins did not determine the condition of the offspring of a union between a white person and an Indian; but further held that the condition of the mother did determine the question. And the court referred to the common law as authority for the position that the condition of the mother fixed the status of the offspring. The court is sustained in the first position by the common law, and also in the last position, if applied to the offspring of a connection between a freeman and a slave, upon the principle handed down from the Roman civil law,  [**16]  that the owner of a female animal is entitled to all her brood, according to the maxim partus sequitur ventrem. But by the common law this rule is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.
No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: "The universal maxim of [**17]  the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother."

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: "As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent." Again, on page 102, Vattel says: "By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights." This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”

Id. at 585, 18 Alb.Law J. 14-17 (cited with approval in United States v. Ward, 42 F.320; 1890 U.S. App. LEXIS 1586; 14 Sawy. 472 (C.C. S.D.Cal 1890) and Keith v. United States, 8 Okla. 446, 448, 58 P. 507 (1899)).   

9.         Ludlam v. Ludlam, 26 N.Y. 356 (1883):  “Vattel says: ‘ Society not being able to subsist and perpetuate itself, but by the children of its citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to all their rights.’ B. 1, ch. 19, § 212.” 

10.       United States v. Ward, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D.Cal. 1890):  “By the common law this rule [partus sequitur ventrem] is reversed with regard to the offspring of free persons. Their offspring follows the condition of the father, and the rule partus sequitur patrem prevails in determining their status. 1 Bouv. Inst., 198, § 502; 31 Barb. 486; 2 Bouv. Law Dict. 147; Shanks v. Dupont, 3 Pet. [28 U.S.] 242. This is the universal maxim of the common law with regard to freemen -- as old as the common law, or even as the Roman civil law, and as well settled as the rule partus sequitur ventrem -- the one being a rule fixing the status of freemen; the other being a rule defining the ownership of property -- the one applicable to different political communities or states, whose citizens are in the enjoyment of the civil rights possessed by people in a state of freedom; the other defining the condition of the offspring which had been tainted by the bondage of the mother.

No other rules than the ones above enumerated ever did prevail in this or any other civilized country. In the case of Ludlam v. Ludlam, 31 Barb. 486, the court says: ‘The universal maxim of the common law being partus sequitur patrem, it is sufficient for the application of this doctrine that the father should be a subject lawfully, and without breach of his allegiance beyond sea, no matter what may be the condition of the mother.’

The law of nations, which becomes, when applicable to an existing condition of affairs in a country, a part of the common law of that country, declares the same rule. Vattel, in his Law of Nations (page 101), says: ‘As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, these children naturally follow the condition of their fathers and succeed to their rights. * * * The country of the father is, therefore, that of the children, and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.’ Again, on page 102, Vattel says: ‘By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers and enter into all their rights.’ This law of nature, as far as it has become a part of the common law, in the absence of any positive enactment on the subject, must be the rule in this case.”   

11.       United States v. Wong Kim Ark, 169 U.S. 649, 679-80 (1898):  Confirmed Minor’s “natural-born citizen” definition when it said: “'At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners” (citing and quoting Minor), and not being limited by the definition of a “natural-born citizen” when defining who a “citizen” was under the Fourteenth Amendment, held that a child born in the United States to domiciled and resident alien parents was a “citizen” under the Fourteenth Amendment.   

Wong Kim Ark eventually resolved Minor's open question, holding that a child born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents was a "citizen of the United States" from the moment of birth by virtue of the Fourteenth Amendment.  It is critically constitutionally important to understand that the Court held Wong to be a "citizen" under the Fourteenth Amendment.  It did not hold that he was a "natural born citizen" under the common law with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution and which according to Minor provided the definition of a "natural born citizen."   

People like Squeeky Fromm also use Wong Kim Ark to tell us about how the decision so well met the needs of our nation of immigrants who have come to our shores thirsting for freedom and opportunity, mixing that noble goal into the definition of a “natural born citizen.”  The simple response to this “feel good” argument is that immigrants coming to America are looking to become “citizens,” not “natural born citizens,” which is a status that their children can enjoy like the children of the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers enjoyed.  Hence, this appeal to tradition is nothing but a fallacious argument applied to the definition of a “natural born citizen.”      

Despite Squeeky Fromm’s lack of memory of who Emer de Vattel was, all these decisions from our U.S. Supreme Court and these lower courts confirmed Vattel’s Section 212 definition of the “natural-born citizens” as “those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.”  This is the only definition of the clause that has ever existed and which has been recognized by our U.S. Supreme Court.  The conditions of being born in the country to “citizen” parents are both necessary and sufficient conditions of being a “natural born Citizen.”  The definition of a “natural born Citizen” therefore excludes anyone who is either not born in the country (or its jurisdictional equivalent) or not born to parents (both parents) who are its “citizens” at the time of the child’s birth or both. 

Squeeky Fromm takes the second part of my article, the one related to an unsound argument, and presents herself as some authority on the matter.  She presents a statement suggesting that I, the one who raised and discussed the issue in the first place, do not recognize the issue concerning the truth of the major premise.  I clearly not only recognized the issue, I created it as part of my logical analysis.  I also demonstrated, as can be seen above, how there is no truth to the Jack Maskell thesis that all born citizens are “natural born citizens.”   I did all that so that the public can see how Jack Maskell ultimately is wrong in his argument.
  
V.                 

Squeeky Fromm’s most recent foray is bringing Trayvon Martin into the “natural born citizen” debate. In her article, The George Zimmerman Verdict and Birtherism, at http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/16/the-george-zimmerman-verdict-and-birtherism/ , she argues that Birthers are like “Trayvonites.”   She argues that the Zimmerman verdict was correct because the rule of law and the right to self-defense required it, but that Trayvon Martin’s supporters refuse to see the light.  What Squeeky Fromm fails to understand is that the Constitutionalists (whom she calls the “Birthers”) have taken the position that they have because of the Constitution and the rule of law.  What is ironic is that a commenter on her blog, “Joel Lawler,” has attacked her as being a racist for her pro-Zimmerman position.  He has told her to “take a deep look into your own sad racist soul.”  She defends her position, saying that the evidence and law require it.   So here we see Squeeky Fromm arguing that such decisions must be decided by the Constitution and the rule of law and not by other extraneous factors such as emotion, anger, prejudice, or revenge.  But she does not grant the “Birthers” the same right to argue that Obama is not a “natural born Citizen.”  We can only conclude from Squeeky Fromm’s inconsistent positions that the Constitution and the rule of law count for her only when it is politically expedient that they do so.    

So, Squeeky Fromm has failed to discredit my Jack Maskell refutation in her several articles (the links are above).  She continues to embarrass herself with her own artistic muddle.  She understands what the Constitution and the rule of law mean, but she applies them selectively and only for political expediency.     

In referring to the topic of her gaslighting article ( http://birtherthinktank.wordpress.com/2013/07/14/are-the-birthers-gaslighting-themselves/ ) blogger ppsimmons, this is what Squeeky Fromm ironically said to one of her sycophants: 

"Hi FrankB!!!

Thank you!!! Somebody had to de-construct him. Why do these guys try to put on airs like they know what they are talking about??? All they do is make trouble for themselves.” 

Too bad that Artsy Fartsy Squeeky Fromm Girl Reporter does not follow her own advice. 

Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
July 19, 2013
Updated March 8, 2014
####


Copyright © 2013
Mario Apuzzo, Esq.
All Rights Reserved
     

3179 comments:

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Slartibartfast said...

Art and Mario,

If we consider the hypothesis that President Obama is natural born and its contradiction, which is simpler in the sense of Ockham's razor?

The former hypothesis is true if the following logical argument is valid:

1. Assume that all persons inside the boundaries of a nation save foreign diplomats and enemy soldiers are subject to its jurisdiction (this was clearly established by the SCOTUS in Minor v. Happersett).

2. Assume that all citizens are either naturalized or natural born (this was stipulated by Mario as well as by the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark).

3. Since Barack Obama Sr. was neither a diplomat nor an enemy soldier, he was subject to US (Hawai'ian) jurisdiction in August of 1961 as was his son when he was born.

4. Since the 14th Amendment says in part, "All persons born...in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States", President Obama was a citizen of the United States at birth due to (3).

5. The SCOTUS ruled Wong Kim Ark to be a citizen of the United States due to the same phrase from the 14th Amendment.

6. Mr. Wong was of Chinese descent.

7. People of Chinese descent were prohibited from naturalization by the Chinese Exclusion Act.

8. Therefore Mr. Wong must have been a natural born citizen due to (2), (6) and (7)

9. As President Obama derives his citizenship from the same source as Mr. Wong, he is a natural born citizen as well.

Clearly, if statements 1 through 8 are correct, statement 9 is true as well. This presents you with two challenges: first to demonstrate that one or more of these 8 statements is fallacious and second to come up with a simpler argument that President Obama is not natural born. Can you come up with a logical proof that President Obama is not natural born that depends on only one or two hypotheses that are supported more firmly than 1 and 2?

Good luck with that.

If you are ever able to get a court to contradict any of these statements, then let me know and I will be happy to come back here and eat crow, but until you do you should realize that your arguments are doomed to failure.

ajtelles said...

Constitution v Statute...

On April 22, 2014 at 12:58 AM, Slartibartfast said...

>> "Art,
>> "You're missing the point
>> "about what "simple" means
>. "in Ockham's razor.

>> "In this context
>> ""simplest" is equivalent to
>> ""has the fewest assumptions"

- - - - - - - - - -

S...fast, you're missing the point about what “simple” means in Ockham's razor. In this context “simplest” means that the preferred “simplest” is that “simplest” that is “simplest” after ALL pertinent assumptions are considered.

American Heritage Dictionary
Ock-ham's razor also Oc-cam's razor … n.
>> “A rule stating that entities should not be multiplied needlessly,
>> “meaning that the simplest of two or more competing theories is preferable
>> “and that the unknown should first be explained in terms of the known.”

S...fast, what that means is that the simplest answer is best, and the unknown is explained by the known.

You said that Ockham's razor is
>> "a rule stating that
>> "entities
>> "should not be multiplied
>> "needlessly, ... ."


S...fast, to avoid multiplying entities needlessly, let's go to and start with the simplest assumption.

The "fewest assumptions" of "simplest" is that ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents can produce ONLY ONE U.S. citizen from birth, and THAT "citizen" from birth is, at the nanosecond of becoming a "citizen" from birth, THAT "citizen" from birth is ALSO a "natural born Citizen" from birth.

A "citizen" from birth, born on either U.S. soil OR foreign soil, who is born to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen and ONE foreign citizen can NOT be a "natural born Citizen" from birth because the foreign citizen parent can NOT bestow on the child what the foreign citizen does NOT own, U.S. citizenship. The foreign citizen parent can NOT produce a "natural born Citizen" from birth.

- - - - - - - - - -

S...fast, this sentence of yours does not make Ockham's razor original intent common sense.
>> “Rafael Cruz, on the other hand, is a natural born citizen by Congressional statute.”

By “Congressional statute” means in addition to the U.S. Constitution, specifically Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

S...fast, you know better than to assert that a “Congressional statute” can “declare” Rafael 'Ted' Cruz to be what Article II says he is not, a “natural born Citizen” from birth, because he was born on foreign soil to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, and his foreign citizen father could not bestow on Sen. Cruz that Article II status of a “natural born Citizen” from birth because his foreign citizen father was obviously NOT a U.S. citizen.

S...fast, you concluded with -

>> "That's my position and I'll stand behind it.
>> "What I wont stand behind is any caricature or outright distortion of this position that you ascribe to me because you are unable to refute my actual argument.


Dittos, S...fast, and

Two is the ONLY way to produce ONE

That's my position and I'll stand behind it.
What I wont stand behind is any caricature or outright distortion of this position that you ascribe to me because you are unable to refute my actual argument.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Slartibartfast said...

Leo said:

"Arthur was the other illegal president.

Interesting that no one ever raised the issue of his father's citizenship before birthers desperate to paint President Obama as illegitimate latched on to the idea. I say that President Arthur was natural born and you are spreading lies. Prove me wrong.

If agnew was not born in US to american citizens then he was not eligible for CiC or VP.

He was a dual Greek-American citizen at birth. No one ever raised concerns regarding his dual citizenship or divided loyalties (nor did anyone complain about this as regards President Arthur). Why does a different standard apply to President Obama and only President Obama?

Saying all citizens at birth are NBCs is not just disengenous but downright dishonest.

Actually, it is what every court that has ruled on the matter has said.

NA 1795 and A2 speak for themselves...

Well, the SCOTUS said that the Naturalization Act of 1795 had the same effect as the Naturalization Act of 1790, even though the wording was changed, Article 2 doesn't define natural born citizen while the 14th Amendment makes it clear that Madison was right when he said that the US followed
jus soli.

mario and the rest of us who go by minor and the actual acts of congress

So you accept that the court in Minor had doubts? Their definition of "subject to the jurisdiction"? Their claim that the terms "citizen" and "subject" were interchangeable? Their suggestion that the definition of "natural born citizen" is contained in the nomenclature of the English common law? That the Naturalization Act of 1790 demonstrates Congress's power to add to the class of natural born citizens? That the Chinese Exclusion Act makes it impossible for Mr. Wong to have been naturalized? Good to know.

do not need to twist, distort and lie about citizens and natural born citizens, we merely go by what the Constitution and the highest authoritys say.

Yet you constantly twist, distort and lie about what constitutes a "natural born citizen". Why is that? My 9 step proof above references only what the highest authorities say. Which step is fallacious and why?
"

Unknown said...

Minor had doubts about who qualified as citizens, the natural born citizens or natives were never in doubt. A state court can say the sun is cold but that does not make it true. A dual citizen and citizen at birth are not eligible in article 2.

Slartibartfast said...

Leo,

The only thing the SCOTUS indicated it was sure of in Minor was that the native-born children of citizens (such as Virginia Minor) were natural born. Even if they had gone further, it would not matter since anything unnecessary to establishing Virginia Minor's citizenship is unquestionably dicta.

The rulings of state courts may not be binding on other states or federal courts, but they are precedent. A citation to Ankeny and an empty chair could prevail over any birther lawyer in any US courtroom.

President Arthur and Vice-President Agnew were dual citizens at birth and no one ever thought this was a problem. Presidents Washington, Jefferson, and Monroe (at the least) were dual citizens during their presidencies. No one complained. President Obama's ancestry was established in his autobiography long before he became a presidential candidate, yet no one thought it was an issue until at least the fall of 2008. You can repeat the misunderstandings of Mario and others as much as you like, but the only way you will ever get a court to agree is massive corruption.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Can you point me to where the SCOTUS (or the Constitution) says the following?

"ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents can produce ONLY ONE U.S. citizen from birth, and THAT "citizen" from birth is, at the nanosecond of becoming a "citizen" from birth, THAT "citizen" from birth is ALSO a "natural born Citizen" from birth."


MichaelN said...

Kev, what "common law" do you suppose the SCOTUS majority in the Minor case referred to, which gave merit to doubts whether native-birth in US to alien parents could make a US citizen at all, the SCOTUS recognizing the doubts were yet to be solved?

Why do you suppose the SCOTUS majority in the Wong Kim Ark case relied on and weighed Wong's parents' allegiance (domicile and business)in determining the single question whether Wong was a "citizen of the US" per the 14th Amendment, and cited favorably without objection to the SCOTUS majority opinion in the Minor case, where Virginia minor was held to be a natural born citizen without any reliance on the 14th Amendment, also with reliance on her parents' allegiance as citizens of the US.

Why do you continue to deny consideration of the important principle of parental allegiance in the case of a native-born to US citizens, in such a national security matter as POTUS eligibility, yet embrace the principle of parental allegiance ("subject to the jurisdiction thereof") of a native-born to aliens to gain US citizen status and then claim absurdly that the alien parents' allegiance matters in in one case, but the US citizen parents' allegiance is to be denied and not considered in the other more important national security case?

Must be about that time that you run away again Kev?

ajtelles said...

1/1

Logical proof...

Mario, on April 22, 2014 at 1:53 AM, S...fast asked for “logical proof” after referring exclusively to the 1868 14th amendment and the 1898 Wong Kim Ark court case and never compared AND contrasted (especially the contrast) the 1868 and 1898 issues with the 1787 original intent of the original birthers who wrote the “natural born Citizen” original words, with the “from birth” common sense original intent implication, in 1787 in Article II Section 1 Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution itself.

- - - - - - - - - -

[...]

>> "4. Since the 14th Amendment says in part,
>> "All persons born...in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof,
>> "are citizens of the United States",
>> "President Obama was a citizen of the United States at birth due to (3).

>. "5. The SCOTUS ruled Wong Kim Ark to be a citizen of the United States due to the same phrase from the 14th Amendment.

>> "6. Mr. Wong was of Chinese descent.

>> "7. People of Chinese descent were prohibited from naturalization by the Chinese Exclusion Act.

>> "8. Therefore
>> "Mr. Wong must have been a natural born citizen due to (2), (6) and (7)

>> "9. As President Obama derives his citizenship
>> "from the same source as Mr. Wong,
>> "he is a natural born citizen as well.

>> "Clearly, if statements 1 through 8 are correct, statement 9 is true as well. ...."

[...]

>> "… Can you come up with a logical proof
>> "that President Obama is not natural born
>> "that depends on only one or two hypotheses
>> "that are supported more firmly than 1 and 2?"


- - - - - - - - - -

>> "6. Mr. Wong was of Chinese descent.
>> "7. People of Chinese descent were prohibited from naturalization by the Chinese Exclusion Act.
>> "8. Therefore
>> "Mr. Wong must have been a natural born citizen due to (2), (6) and (7)


S...fast, #6 “was” and #7 “prohibited” and #8 “therefore … must have been” are not logically consistent. I can see that, and I'm not even a logician. So, how can you see what is not there?

- - - - - - - - - -

Here is Ockham's razor simplicity to show how 1787 informs 1868 and 1898.

TWO is better than ONE.
TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

S...fast, since you are a purported Ph.D mathematician and logician by implication and we're not, here are some “normal people” simple question.

#1 - Can you come up with a logical proof against the Ockham's razor simple thesis that TWO is better than ONE?

Concerning national security, John Jay's “higher hurdle” implication of birth ONLY on U.S. soil, and of birth ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents, is much better, exquisitely better, stupendously better, than the Obama-birther's “lower hurdle” implication that John Jay would agree that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent was sufficient and represented his original intent.

Of course, ONE is as good as or better than TWO does NOT disprove that TWO is better than ONE. Right?

ajtelles said...

2/2

#2 - Can you come up with a logical proof against the Ockham's razor simple thesis that TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE?

The physical union of TWO persons who are U.S. citizens is the ONLY way to produce a child who has ONLY ONE citizenship status, and who does NOT have the dual citizenship status of U.S. “citizen” from birth derived from ONE U.S. citizen parent and foreign “citizen” from birth derived from ONE foreign citizen parent.

Of course, TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE can NOT be disproved by the Obama-birther thesis that ONE U.S. citizen parent can produce ONE U.S. “citizen” from birth who does NOT have dual citizenship. Right?

#3 - Can you come up with a logical proof that ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents is NOT the ONLY way to produce ONE U.S. “citizen” from birth?

Of course, the thesis that it takes two to produce one, either a child of both parents or a citizen with the same citizenship status of both parents, does not need to be disproved. Right?

#4 - Can you come up with a logical proof that a “citizen” from birth is ALSO a “natural born Citizen” from birth even though the “citizen” from birth child was born, on either U.S. soil OR foreign soil, with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent and ONE foreign citizen parent?

Of course, since #4 is the Obama birth narrative defended by the Obama-birthers, you probably think that ONE U.S. citizen parent and ONE foreign citizen parent, TWO different citizenship status', is as good as if not better than TWO U.S. citizen parents who have the SAME citizenship status, so #4 does not need to be disproved. Right?

#5 - Can you come up with a logical proof that the “citizen” from birth is ALSO a “natural born Citizen” from birth even though the foreign citizen parent can NOT bestow on the child what the foreign citizen does NOT own, which is the status of U.S. “citizen” by oath in a naturalization ceremony?

No, S...fast, you can not come up with logical proof for #5 to defend the Obama birth narrative, because to try would be self-defeating. It would defeat the Obama birth narrative of the Obama-birthers that dual citizenship is ok and that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS, so to produce a child who does NOT have dual citizenship is irrelevant to the Obama birth narrative of the Obama-birthers. Right?

- - - - - - - - - -

When John Jay underlined “born” in “natural born Citizen” in 1787, the implication was that the child would be BOTH a “citizen” from birth AND a “natural born Citizen” from birth by being ONLY born on U.S. soil and jurisdictions, and ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

John Jay was NOT implying that a “natural born Citizen” from birth would be a “citizen” from birth with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent.

John Jay was NOT implying that a “natural born Citizen” from birth would be a 1795 Naturalization Act of Congress “citizen” at birth, from birth, after birth.

John Jay was NOT implying that a “natural born Citizen” from birth would be a future 1868 14th amendment “citizen” at birth, from birth.

John Jay was NOT implying that a “natural born Citizen” from birth would be a 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act of Congress “citizen” at birth, from birth, after birth.

That's my original intent position, and I'll stand with the 1787 original intent of John Jay.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...
"The only thing the SCOTUS indicated it was sure of in Minor was that the native-born children of citizens (such as Virginia Minor) were natural born."

---------------------

Nonsense! ...it was not the "only thing" Kev.

The SCOTUS did not say "natural born", the SCOTUS said "natural born citizen" of the United States.

You are omitting things to suit your agenda.

SCOTUS in Minor made it clear that according to a "common law" which the Framers observed, Virginia Minor was a natural born citizen of the US, and that it was not necessary to rely on the 14th Amendment to ascertain her NBC status, and that the 14th Amendment (as a part of the US Constitution)did not say who shall be natural born citizens.

The SCOTUS in Minor also said that there were doubts whether those native-born in US to alien parents were citizens of the US at all (it did not say the doubts were whether such persons were natural born, only whether they were citizens), the SCOTUS went on to say that the doubts were yet to be solved.

i.e. the SCOTUS virtually held that at that time, native-birth in US to aliens parents did not make a citizen of the United States, (not to be confuzed with NBC) but this could change at some time later when the question of the doubts might come before the court for determination or was clarified by the Congress.

Kev, you always avoid these points, because you are so desperate to maintain your mis-information campaign, you pretend they don't exist.

You run around the shop mouthing-off that the SCOTUS in the WKA case held that Wong was a NBC, when no such thing took place, you ignore the "single question" of the case, you ignore the difference in parental allegiance between alien parents and US citizen parents, you ignore that the SCOTUS held that the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be NBC, etc, etc............ you desperately avoid and ignore everything that shows the lie you are promoting.

Furthermore, NOWHERE was it ever held or ruled in English common law, that native-birth alone sufficed to make a natural born subject.

The allegiance of parents has always been the deciding factor in determining subject/citizen status, and in the US, parental allegiance is measured in the case of those native-born to aliens and it is also measured in the case of determining which born COTUS are eligible for the office of POTUS.

ajtelles said...

Where in the SCOTUS or in the Constitution...

Slartibartfast, on April 22, 2014 at 2:43 PM you quoted me and asked -

>> "Art,
>>"Can you point me to where the SCOTUS (or the Constitution) says the following?

>> ' "ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents
>> "can produce ONLY ONE U.S. citizen from birth,
>> "and THAT "citizen" from birth is,
>> "at the nanosecond of becoming a "citizen" from birth,
>> "THAT "citizen" from birth is ALSO
>> "a "natural born Citizen" from birth." '


- - - - - - - - -

S...fast, as you know, neither the SCOTUS or the Constitution "say" what I extrapolated from John Jay's underling the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” and the implicit “from birth”, and neither do they say anything that you could use to support your extrapolation from whatever source you used to presuppose what you wrote about “Rafael Cruz”, 'Ted' Cruz, that he is a natural born citizen, and it does not “say” what you are tacitly implying, but the quote does accurately affirm what Article II Section 1 Clause 5 implies.

You know, S...fast, Article II, the SAME place that Obama-birthers tacitly assert that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen is implied, but which they shy away from defining and then defending their definition of Clause 5, so the defenders of the Obama birth narrative run full speed to 1868 and the 14th amendment and they run full speed to 1875 and Minor v Happersett and they run full speed to 1898 and Wong Kim Ark, but, for some reason they NEVER run at all to the 1952 Immigration and Nationality Act.

John Jay explicitly stated that natural security demanded protecting access to the executive office, so Jay underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the obvious "from birth" implication, but Jay did NOT imply "after birth", and Jay definitely did NOT imply "by oath" in a naturalization ceremony.

Right?

Does the clarification help? The clarification about the differences between defenders of the Obama birth narrative, the Obama-birthers, the Obirthers, and the defenders of the original intent of the original birthers, the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers who understood what “natural born Citizen” with the implied “from birth” meant in 1787?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the 'Union'

Unknown said...

Slart, there has definitely been massive corruption to allow a ineligible serial liar with 2 forgerys and a fake social on the ballot. If you do have a phd then you should be able to figure out that wka was ruled a citizen of the us in a 6-3 decision and that a citizen of the US has not been eligible since adoption. Barry and wka were children of alien fathers and were born in US. Actually i do not know where the liar was born or who is real parents are. In big black letters it says citizen of the US in wka decision. Is a supreme court ruling also dicta?3 supreme court justices said wka was not even a 14th amd citizen of the US being of course the child of a alien father born in US

MichaelN said...

waiting, Kev.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

You have written so many things that are wrong historically, legally, and logically (they are misstatements, distortions, omissions, and fabrications). I will address your points a little at a time.

You have erroneously adopted the Jack Maskell thesis of the meaning of a natural born citizen, i.e., any born citizen is a natural born citizen, and his implicit definition of “naturalization.” Jack Maskell, with his “weight” of “consensus” argument, seeks to transform what he personally values and therefore perceives as “consensus” and how much it “weighs” into a force that produces in effect a positive law codification of his definition of a natural born citizen, i.e., that all born citizens are natural born citizens, which is to be uniformly enforced upon the entire nation. Hence, Maskell has taken license to redefine the words of the Constitution. But Maskell’s consensus thesis is not based on how the Framers defined a natural born citizen and therefore is not how the Constitution defines the clause. Rather, what he offers is a revision of historical and legal fact and of the Constitution, done without constitutional amendment of how the Framers truly defined a natural born citizen which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Allow me to explain.

Using Ockham’s razor, people are either U.S. citizens or not. Then, citizens are either natural born citizens or not. If a citizen is not a natural born citizen, then that citizen can only be a naturalized citizen.

The first and controlling unless amended order of business is identifying the source which provides the meaning of citizen and natural born citizen as used and implemented by the Framers. The original citizens came into being by and through the Declaration of Independence and by a person’s adherence to the American Revolution and nothing more. A natural born citizen also came into being through no man-made positive law and did not obtain his or her birth status because of the need to acquire any local property or inheritance rights. With the Framers tying a natural born citizen to eligibility to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military (the ultimate defender and preserver of the nation in time of war), a natural born citizen had a very special degree of allegiance which transcended mere property and inheritance rights. Given the nature of the civil and military offices and the needs of the nation, that allegiance could only be sole and absolute allegiance to the United States from the moment of birth.

The challenge for the new nation became defining, because they were not natural born citizens and therefore not eligible to be President and Commander, who were going to be the future citizens of the United States. The Constitution gave to Congress naturalization power to decide this question. Congress met this challenge through a myriad of Acts of Congress, treaties, and eventually by passing and having ratified the Fourteenth Amendment.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

A natural born citizen, obtaining his or her birth status only from natural law (reason that is universal and immutable regardless of the place) and the law of nations (natural law applied to the affairs of nations) which upon acceptance and adoption by the people became their confirming positive common law, needs no man-made government positive law for the birth status. Under this people’s common law, which was fixed in meaning at the adoption and ratification of the Constitution and which under our Constitution can be changed only by constitutional amendment, there is only and can only be one definition of a natural born citizen which is a child born in a county to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. The Venus (1814) (C.J. Marshall concurring); Inglis v. Trustees of Sailor’s Snug Harbor (1830); Shanks v. Dupont (1830); Dred Scott v. Sandford (1857) (J. Daniel concurring); The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873); Minor v. Happersett (1875); and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). This means that any citizen who does not meet this common law definition is alien born (Minor) and if a citizen, then a naturalized citizen (made, deemed, and considered by positive law as if equivalent to a natural born citizen except for not being eligible to be President or Vice-President), either at birth or after birth, by virtue of positive law such as the Fourteenth Amendment as interpreted by application of Calvin’s Case (1608) (which under English common law when applied to determining local property and inheritance rights produced a “natural-born subject” by naturalization at birth) by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (which relying upon the English common law and its rules for determining local property and inheritance rights, produced a “citizen of the United States” at birth by naturalization at birth); Acts of Congress (which produce a citizen of the United States at birth by naturalization at birth or a citizen of the United States after birth by naturalization after birth), or treaties (which produce a citizen of the United States after birth by naturalization after birth). So, just as natural law is not to be conflated and confounded with any form of positive law, including common law, a natural born citizen is not to be conflated and confounded with a Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress citizen of the United States at birth.

Thus, what this all means is that today a natural born citizen is still, as it has always been, a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

Now, this is Ockham’s razor at work.

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

Mario, on April 23, 2014 at 9:47 AM in the third paragraph, you wrote -

>>> "Using Ockham’s razor, people are
>> "either U.S. citizens or not.

>> "Then, "citizens are
>> "either natural born citizens or not.

>> "If a citizen is not a natural born citizen,
>> "then that citizen can only be a naturalized citizen."


- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, John Jay would probably say "dittos Mario" to this common sense "if/then" definition that explains the union and the distinction of "citizen" with the implication of "from birth", and "natural born Citizen" with the implication of "from birth".


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of "...a more perfect Union"

Anonymous said...

~A New Insight~

The 14th Amendment nationality clause has two requirements, with both being necessary in order that citizenship be recognized. It requires that potential citizens must belong to both of two different groups.
The first group is the native-born. The second group is the subject-born.

One must be both born within the limits and under the authority of the United States. Some people are members of the first group but not members of the second group, and vice versa.

Those requirements posit the existence of four groups. One fulfills neither requirement. Another two fulfill one or the other requirement. The last fulfills both. That is devastating to the nativist doctrine of both birther and obot camps. Here's why.

First, the wording is not "Only persons" but "All persons". It thereby makes it clear that it is not defining all those who are citizens but is merely describing two circumstances which together result in citizenship for all those of whom those circumstances are true.
All those who are members of both groups are among all those who are citizens.
Some born in the U.S. are not citizens because they fail to meet the second requirement. They once included all children of foreign ministers, foreign visitors, Native Americans, Gypsies, slaves and indentured servants.

None of them were considered to be citizens because they were not subject to the duties of citizens.

But all of those who were citizens by birth were subject. Their connection to their nation and the duties of citizenship were as certain as their connection to their own mother. They were linked together on the primal level because all children of citizens are subject just like their parents.

That is why they can be identified as natural born citizens by that factor alone. Born naturally subject regardless of birth location.

The children of immigrants are supposedly born subject also, but they must, by law, belong to the first group as well (native-born) or else they are not citizens.

That is the rule of the common law for children of outsiders. They must be born within and under the limits and authority.
But those born automatically subject, -without or before the existence of the common law, were the natural citizens of every nation. Born of subjects (or citizens), making one subject also.

How do we define those who belong to the second group? Only one label fits: natural born citizens. How do we define those who belong to both groups? Be don't because they can be either NBCs or common law citizens.

How do we define those who must belong to both groups? As common law or 14th Amendment citizens, aka; children of foreign immigrants.
If one must belong to both groups, then one can't be President.

Only the second group is eligible. They are the 97%.
Nash.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

I see you are continuing to pick up and use information here which you call “new insight.”

You have almost arrived except for your position that national borders are irrelevant to our Constitutional meaning of a natural born citizen.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: " If a citizen is not a natural born citizen, then that citizen can only be a naturalized citizen."

That is over-simplistic. It leaves out a very real category of citizens which at various points in history numbered in the millions. It is the category of the common law citizens of America.

The States, in part or in whole, retained the century-old common law tradition of viewing the native-born as citizens (with exceptions).
The national government abandoned that tradition, rejecting (as national policy) dual citizenship and dual allegiance, but never making that policy law.

It could not make that policy into law because that would reject as national citizens all State common law citizens. That was politically impossible.

Even the policy alone carried the huge implication that none of those with dual citizenship would be eligible to be President regardless of being born and raised as an American, nor of having served honorably in American wars. Thus no Marco Rubio nor Ted Cruz would be eligible.

It would "alter" the view of what a natural born citizen is by making the word "natural" have real legal meaning, and not merely an artificial, term-of-legal-artifice meaning analogous to "natural born subject".

It would mean that only sons of citizens could be President, denying native-born sons of immigrant foreigners the right to that privilege.
You can bet that the immigrant community would have been apoplectic at such a disenfranchisement of their American children.

The dissonance between State citizenship law (which included common law citizenship) and federal policy was finally resolved by the contrived opinion in the Wong case.

From then on, it was the law of the land that common law citizenship was the rule in America for all children of immigrants.

They were never viewed by the citizens of the States as being "naturalized at birth". Such a concept did not exist. It was non-existent in Britain and the colonies.
Naturalization was a thing that only concerned adult men and their embrace of a new nationality by an oath of allegiance.

Every father, including every naturalized father, was the determinant of the nationality of those under him and within his personal family unit.
They mirrored him. Whatever was true of him was true of them as well.
The family blood made it so by natural transmission of the father's political nature.
But the reverse was not and is not true. The common law citizenship of an immigrant's child does not make the parents citizens also.

Citizenship can never be obtained by adults except by actual naturalization, meaning by oath. Nothing else is naturalization. It is merely mandatory government recognition that every child is of the same nationality as its parents. That's a simple political reality based on a law of nature.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

I do not understand your point. I am discussing what is an Article II “natural born citizen.” That is a constitutional question, not a modern-day political one. It is of no moment to this analysis and surely does not amend the clause’s definition that the one and only definition of a natural born citizen could someday cause and does today cause some people like Obama, Cruz, Rubio, Jindal, and Haley not to be eligible to be President.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote:

"I do not understand your point." Yes, you do understand my point but are totally unable to address it because it destroys the basis of your dogma. Your wrote: "If a citizen is not a natural born citizen, then that citizen can only be a naturalized citizen."

I showed that that is inaccurate, and the reason it is inaccurate destroys your dogma. You then failed to refute or address any point that I made. Instead all we get is more obfuscation and a claim of not understanding. If you truly are incapable of understanding what I wrote, then I'm truly wasting my time with you since you are unteachable.

A. Nash


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

You are full of it.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You replied to me:

“What are you talking about Mario? The statement:

‘Natural born citizens are a proper subset of citizens’

IMPLIES

"Natural born citizens are a subset of citizens"

You want me to admit that something is false because of a statement which proves it to be true? That's got to be one of the most twisted bits of logic I've ever heard.”

-----

You told us that you have a Ph.D in mathematics. Being a mathematician of such caliber, how can you possibly inject probability into set theory not involving infinite numbers at the same time that you scolded ajtelles for using the word “subordinate” in set analysis? How can you with a straight face maintain that my saying natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens implies that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens? How can anything “imply” that a proper subset is a subset of a set? Do you not know that being a proper subset, rules out being a subset of the set? What is amazing is that you have the nerve to inject politics into the honorable field of knowledge that we call mathematics.

MichaelN said...

still waiting, Kev

Unknown said...

slarti has definitely earned a BA in BS...the only 2 citizens in history of US are natural born citizen and citizen of the US. You are one or the other right obamabots? I have seen no legit evidence barry was either. A social that fails e verify is a pretty big red flag, so is a forged draft card. Barry is such a chronic liar it is hard to believe anything him or his lackeys say or do

Slartibartfast said...

Mario said:

You told us that you have a Ph.D in mathematics.

I assume that MichaelN, at the very least, has verified this (not that more than a cursory understanding of mathematics is necessary to know that everything I've said about set theory is correct).

Being a mathematician of such caliber, how can you possibly inject probability into set theory not involving infinite numbers at the same time that you scolded ajtelles for using the word “subordinate” in set analysis?

I scolded ajtelles for using a term that wasn't defined in context. Because "subordinate" wasn't defined in the context of set theory, the analogy Art was trying to make was completely bogus. Your charge that I "inject[ed] probability into set theory not involving infinite numbers" is nothing but gibberish. Or, in the words of Shakespeare, a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

How can you with a straight face maintain that my saying natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens implies that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens?

Let C be a set. Let N be a proper subset of C.

Claim: N is a subset of C

Proof: Let x be an element of N

since N is a proper subset of C, x is an element of C

since x was an arbitrary element of N, all elements of N are also elements of C

therefore, by definition, N is a subset of C

QED


How can anything “imply” that a proper subset is a subset of a set?

In math (as in formal logic) the term "imply" means that the conclusion can be proven given the premise. Which is exactly what I did above. If you don't understand that, then look up the set-theoretic definitions of the terms "set", "subset" and "proper subset" and you will see that all proper subsets fulfill the definition of a subset. To argue that a natural born citizen is not a citizen might be considered absurd, but to argue that a proper subset isn't a subset is objectively fallacious.

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

Do you not know that being a proper subset, rules out being a subset of the set?

I'm starting to wonder if you ever passed a course in logic. A set cannot be a proper subset without also being a subset. Frankly, the level of ignorance (or dishonesty) in this statement is staggering.

From Wikipedia:


A derived binary relation between two sets is the subset relation, also called set inclusion. If all the members of set A are also members of set B, then A is a subset of B, denoted A ⊆ B. For example, {1,2} is a subset of {1,2,3} , but {1,4} is not. From this definition, it is clear that a set is a subset of itself; for cases where one wishes to rule this out, the term proper subset is defined. A is called a proper subset of B if and only if A is a subset of B, but B is not a subset of A. (emphasis added)

What part of the final sentence do you fail to understand?

What is amazing is that you have the nerve to inject politics into the honorable field of knowledge that we call mathematics.

Let's see, you've been using your false ideas about set theory in discussions about "natural born citizens" and "citizens of the United States" for months and Art tried to draw a false analogy by introducing set theory and applying the term "subordinate", which he was unwilling to define, but when I explicitly point out and explain your fallacies, I'm injecting politics into mathematics. Right.

You really should stay away from talking about math, Mario. The language of math is one in which there is an objective standard to determine truth or falsehood and you clearly don't understand it (if you did, you wouldn't say things that are false by definition). It is readily apparent to anyone at all fluent in the language of mathematics that everything you and Art said about set theory was either fallacious or gibberish.


I would also note that this isn't about politics, it's about the law. There is no longer any political issue whatsoever---at least not as far as President Obama is concerned (I don't really care about your Cruz bithering). President Obama doesn't need me or anyone else to defend him against birthers (he never did, really---the birthers have been one of the most impotent movements ever) as he will clearly not be removed before the end of his term due to eligibility issues. This is all about politics to you because of your hatred for President Obama and your need for a reason---true or not---for him to be illegitimate.

MichaelN,

If you ever choose to honestly address the merits of any of my arguments, then I'll feel obligated to respond to you. Until then, you can just keep waiting.

Art,

Your arguments regarding Ockham's razor aren't much more lucid than Mr. Nash's rants. Repeating the word "simple" is not the same as explaining what the word means in the context of the razor.


Can I ask you guys a question? What would it take to convince you that you are wrong on this matter? On a spectrum from the existing evidence to traveling back in time and having Washington, Jefferson and Madison explain their original intent to you, where would you fall?

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

Here's a counter-example for you---two punctured lungs are not, in fact, better than a single punctured lung. Also, in the only direct criticism of my argument, you claimed that #6, 7, and 8 were logically inconsistent.

I'm not sure what you're thinking here (if you are thinking at all), but Mr. Wong was born to parents who were subjects of the Chinese Emperor making him the descendant of Chinese people.

According to the US Congress, descendants of Chinese people were barred from being naturalized by law. Therefore Mr. Wong was not a naturalized citizen.

Since we know Mr. Wong was, in fact, a citizen and that all citizens are either naturalized or natural born, we are left to conclude that Mr. Wong was a natural born citizen.

I don't know what you think "logically inconsistent" means, but my reasoning is sound. If it were inconsistent, you would be able to show a contradiction implied by my argument.

Your arguments, on the other hand, frequently lead to multiple contradictions and generally require a lot of special pleading (not to mention all of the assumptions). And why do birthers have so much trouble agreeing on a single theory?

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"First, it shows that only by constitutional amendment can the definition of a natural born citizen be changed and Congress knows that."

Congress also know that Obama is eligible for his office. They certified his election without a single objection. Twice. The previous President executed a gracious transition. The Chief justice of the United States swore Obama in (four times as that worked out).


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Second, step in the sell-out Obots whose mission it is to legitimize the Presidency of Barack Obama and as part of that effort and for political expediency to give their support to the eligibility of Senator Ted Cruz and that of any other human being who has a pulse.
[...]
All their nefarious efforts are outright treason to the nation and the Constitution."

Seeing that all the branches clearly recognize Obama as the lawful President, and no federal officer has agreed with you, I'd say the traitor is the one trying to delegitimize the goverment over not getting his way.

Carlyle said...

@Unknown said... "Seeing that all the branches clearly recognize Obama as the lawful President, and no federal officer has agreed with you, I'd say the traitor is the one trying to delegitimize the goverment over not getting his way."

----------------------------

Now you are getting close to some real insight. Let us disect your argument a little. And just to keep it hypothetical and non-emotional, consider the following:

Suppose that a presidential candidate were put forward and elected that clearly and non-controversially violates the constitutional eligibility requirement. Say, for example, it is discovered very late in the process that he is indeed well less than the required 35 years of age.

Congress certifies the electoral vote, chief justice swears him in, etc.

What then would be the status of that President and what should be done about it? Who has the jurisdiction, standing, and authority to take that action?

Slartibartfast said...

Carlyle,

There are several checks against an ineligible candidate. First, their opponents in the primaries would have standing to challenge their position on the ballot of individual states (this can't be done in the general election since people are voting for electors rather than candidates). If that doesn't work, enough voters in the primary or the general election could be convinced not to vote for the candidate due to their ineligibility. Failing this, if one Senator and one Representative object in writing to the certification of the electoral college vote, the matter goes before the Congress who may reject the candidate (the last time this was used was in 2004, by the way). Once the results are certified, the President automatically assumes the office at the appropriate time (according to the Constitution). Once the candidate becomes the president, they can only be removed by impeachment and conviction or the vote of half of the cabinet plus the Vice President. There are no other legitimate avenues to question a president's eligibility and since the birthers cannot effect any of these, the eligibility issue is moot as regards President Obama.

The birthers have had the chance to pursue all of their Constitutional options and, whether due to incompetence or a lack of merit in their arguments (or both), they have failed.

It is telling that while there are plenty of liberals who are willing to strongly criticize the president (some consider him a war criminal due to his positions on torture and killing American citizens), there has never been a single person who supports liberal policies but argues against his eligibility. The absolute homogeneity of anti-Obama sentiment amongst birthers is strong evidence that their arguments have no merit.

Since it is clear that the birthers can neither convince President Obama's cabinet to remove him or successfully impeach (let alone convict) him, their only options are to realize that the issue is moot and move on, or to foment sedition in some form or other. Regrettably, most of you seem to have chosen the latter.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

The continuing need to protect a person’s and consequentially a nation’s safety and security is never moot.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda:

I of III

I wrote:

"Second, step in the sell-out Obots whose mission it is to legitimize the Presidency of Barack Obama and as part of that effort and for political expediency to give their support to the eligibility of Senator Ted Cruz and that of any other human being who has a pulse. . . . All their nefarious efforts are outright treason to the nation and the Constitution."

You responded:

“Seeing that all the branches clearly recognize Obama as the lawful President, and no federal officer has agreed with you, I'd say the traitor is the one trying to delegitimize the government over not getting his way.”

-----

So let me understand you, Unknown.

Emer de Vattel spoke in Section 211 of the Law of Nations (1758) of “love of our country,--a virtue so excellent and necessary in a state” and explained in Section 212 that natives, or natural born citizens, being the children born in the country to parents who were its citizens, are those who will “perpetuate” and “preserve” a society and nation.

General George Washington preferred natives over non-natives in military matters.

A committee of which Thomas Jefferson was chairman, reported the following resolution to the Continental Congress in 1777:

"Resolved, That it is inconsistent with the interests of the United States to appoint any person not a natural born citizen thereof to the office of minister, charge d'affaires, consul, or vice-consul, or to any other civil department in a foreign country; and that a copy of this resolve be sent to Messrs. Adams, Franklin and Jay, ministers of the said States in Europe."

John Jay, Founder, one of the Publius triumvirate that wrote the Federalist Papers, and our nation’s first Chief Justice, because of what he saw as the need to keep out of the critical office of the Commander in Chief of the Military foreign influence, recommended in a letter he wrote dated July 25, 1787 to then-General Washington that the power of the Commander in Chief not devolve upon any person who was not a “natural born citizen” (underlying the word born).

The Convention Committee of Eleven on September 4, 1787 rejected the Committee on Detail’s proposal that the President and Commander had to be a “citizen” (could be born with dual and conflicting allegiance and citizenship) and a resident for 21 years and in its place required that he had to be a “natural born citizen” (could not be born with dual and conflicting allegiance and citizenship), at least 35 years old, and a resident within the United States for a minimum of 14 years. The Convention accepted the change without any opposition or recorded debate. Clearly, the Framers believed that a President and Commander who was a natural born citizen was that president and commander who could best be trusted to advance the interests of the nation in time of peace and to protect the nation in time of war, thereby preserving and perpetuating it. So they believed that the survival of the nation could be put in the hands of just one person, but only if that person was a natural born citizen.

John Jay, writing as Publius in his Federalist No. 2 to 5, entitled, "Concerning Dangers from Foreign Force and Influence," and published on October 31, 1787, a publication whose purpose it was to convince the public that the Constitution should be ratified, spoke of the safety of the people being the first object of civil society and how that safety was to work both for “security for the preservation of peace and tranquility, as well as against dangers from foreign arms and influence,” and of how “undue influence of ancient attachments” worked to undermine the

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

American Revolution; and argued that the Convention delegates assembled in Philadelphia because of “love for their country,” the Convention and Constitution’s purpose was to “preserve and perpetuate” the “prosperity of America,” government was necessary to “preserve and perpetuate” a people and their nation, and the United States as a united nation as opposed to separate states would provide the people with the best chance of protection from foreign influence and aggression.

In referring to the President, Alexander Hamilton described him as the “person to whom so important a trust was to be confided. . . .” He described the Office of President as “so important an agency in the administration of the government . . .” “Nothing was more to be desired than that every practicable obstacle should be opposed to cabal, intrigue, and corruption. These most deadly adversaries of republican government might naturally have been expected to make their approaches from more than one quarter, but chiefly from the desire in foreign powers to gain an improper ascendant in our councils. How could they better gratify this, than by raising a creature of their own to the chief magistracy of the Union?”

Alexander Hamilton, Federalist, no. 68, 457-61 (12 Mar. 1788).

In the same article, Hamilton explained how the Framers took precautions to guard the election of the President from foreign influence. They saw the Electoral College as a means to accomplish this goal. They would have expected no less from the qualifications that they prescribed for the office of President.

Hamilton later continued: "Foreign influence is truly the Trojan horse to a republic. We cannot be too careful to exclude its influence." Alexander Hamilton, Pacificus, No. 6, July 17, 1793.

President George Washington in his 1796 Farewell warned:

“Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government.”

The Third Congress, led by then-Representative James Madison and with the approval of President George Washington, went out of its way and through all of its troubles to remove the birth status of children born out of the territory and jurisdiction of the United States to U.S. citizen parents from natural born citizens to citizens of the United States. Since being a natural born citizen was relevant only for those wanting to be President, the Third Congress and Washington through this change told us that such children were not to be eligible to be President.

St. George Tucker, America’s Blackstone, explained in 1803 in his famous commentaries on the common law of England:

"That provision in the constitution which requires that the president shall be a native-born citizen (unless he were a citizen of the United States when the constitution was adopted,) is a happy means of security against foreign influence, which, wherever it is capable of being exerted, is to be dreaded more than the plague. The admission of foreigners into our councils, consequently, cannot be too much guarded against; their total exclusion from a station to which foreign nations have been accustomed to, attach ideas of sovereign power, sacredness of character, and hereditary right, is a measure of the most consummate policy and wisdom.”

Tucker, St. George (1803). "St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries 1:App. 316–25, 328–29".

Joseph Story, Associate Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court (1811–1845), in his Commentaries on the Constitution 3:§§ 1472—73 (1833), also gives us insight into the intent of the natural born citizen clause. There he stated:

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

“§ 1473. It is indispensable, too, that the president should be a natural born citizen of the United States; or a citizen at the adoption of the constitution, and for fourteen years before his election. This permission of a naturalized citizen to become president is an exception from the great fundamental policy of all governments, to exclude foreign influence from their executive councils and duties. It was doubtless introduced (for it has now become by lapse of time merely nominal, and will soon become wholly extinct) out of respect to those distinguished revolutionary patriots, who were born in a foreign land, and yet had entitled themselves to high honours in their adopted country. A positive exclusion of them from the office would have been unjust to their merits, and painful to their sensibilities. But the general propriety of the exclusion of foreigners, in common cases, will scarcely be doubted by any sound statesman. It cuts off all chances for ambitious foreigners, who might otherwise be intriguing for the office; and interposes a barrier against those corrupt interferences of foreign governments in executive elections, which have inflicted the most serious evils upon the elective monarchies of Europe. Germany, Poland, and even the pontificate of Rome, are sad, but instructive examples of the enduring mischiefs arising from this source. A residence of fourteen years in the United States is also made an indispensable requisite for every candidate; so, that the people may have a full opportunity to know his character and merits, and that he may have mingled in the duties, and felt the interests, and understood the principles, and nourished the attachments, belonging to every citizen in a republican government.”

Justice Story also wrote in his 1840 guidebook to the Constitution, A Familiar Exposition of the Constitution of the United States, about the natural-born-citizen clause, saying: “It is not too much to say that no one, but a native citizen, ought ordinarily to be intrusted with an office so vital to the safety and liberties of the people.”

Except for our early Presidents who were grandfathered under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 as “citizens of the United States” to be eligible to be Presidents, all our Presidents and Commanders have been natural born citizens, except for Chester Arthur (who hid the fact that he was born to alien parents from the public) and Barack Obama (the political and media establishment has refused to enforce the Constitution against him).

Obama, our current de facto President and Commander in Chief of the Military, is not a natural born citizen, a violation of the Founders’, Framers’, Ratifiers’, people’s, and Constitution’s command that only a natural born citizen occupy those offices. I work to bring that violation to justice and you call me a traitor while yellow-bellied cowards like you and your ilk work for political expediency to discredit me and call yourselves American heroes.

NotLinda, I will leave you and your kind with the eloquent words of Vattel:

"§ 123. How shameful and criminal to injure our country.

If every man is obliged to entertain a sincere love for his country, and to promote its welfare as far as in his power, it is a shameful and detestable crime to injure that very country. He who becomes guilty of it, violates his most sacred engagements, and sinks into base ingratitude: he dishonours himself by the blackest perfidy, since he abuses the confidence of his fellow-citizens, and treats as enemies those who had a right to expect his assistance and services. We see traitors to their country only among those men who are solely sensible to base interest, who only seek their own immediate advantage, and whose hearts are incapable of every sentiment of affection for others. They are, therefore, justly detested by mankind in general, as the most infamous of all villains."

You have more than demonstrated where you and your kind fall.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

In reference to your answer to Unknown, none of the authority you cite is in any way contradicted by interpreting it in the light of our definition of "natural born" and, in some cases, our definition makes more sense than yours due to it being essentially interchangeable with "native born". It is completely absurd to suggest that anyone born with American citizenship would have been considered a foreigner by the Founders.

If your position is the meritorious one, then why does every single argument you make involve a logical fallacy of one kind or another?

As for the nation's safety and security (which, by the way, is not at risk from President Obama holding the Oval Office), you cannot protect it by acting outside of the Constitution and you cannot achieve the only Constitutional remedies which remain. At this point, the only reasonable options which remain to you are to accept that your argument against President Obama's eligibility has been rejected or to pursue extra-Constitutional remedies such as preaching sedition in an attempt to usurp the legitimate president.

When you chose the latter, you gave up all pretense to patriotism.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

If President Arthur hid his father's British citizenship from the public, how come that information is clear from reading Mr. Hinman's book?

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

Do you really think that you can erase our American history by your cop-out explanation about how your definition of a natural born citizen has the same value as that relied upon by the Founder, Framers, and Ratifiers?

Regardless of what you claim your definition of a natural born citizen does, which is false, your conduct and that of your group is treason to the Constitution and our nation.

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"MichaelN,

If you ever choose to honestly address the merits of any of my arguments, then I'll feel obligated to respond to you. Until then, you can just keep waiting."
---------------------

Translated = to address the points you have raised would be an admission that I am wrong and promoting lies.

Kev, I didn't expect you would face-up to the points I raised and questions asked of you.

Your pathetic condition to be met before responding with an answer is typical of you, either that, or you run away.

I have proven my point, i.e. YOU know you are wrong, and you can't claim ignorance, you deliberately are spreading falsities, thus you are a traitor to your country.

Here's some maths for you.....

Eligibility for born COTUS.

native-born + weak parental allegiance = COTUS = not eligible for POTUS

NB + WPA = COTUS NEFPOTUS

and

Eligibility for born COTUS to be POTUS.
native-born COTUS + strongest possible parental allegiance = eligible for POTUS.

NBCOTUS + SPA = EFPOTUS

Kev did you notice how the SCOTUS majority in the WKA case cited favorably and without criticism to the Minor court's recognition of a "common law" observed by the Framers, where it was doubted whether native-birth alone made even a citizen at all, AND the majority of SCOTUS in WKA also cited favorably to Binney's recognition of two types of born citizens of the US, where the term "natural born" was used exclusively to describe the child of US citizens in contrast to "the child of an alien if born in the country"?

And did you notice, that the majority of SCOTUS in the WKA case remained consistent with this principle, by declaring WKA to be a "citizen of the United States" but not a NBC?

Kev, your refusal to address or acknowledge these facts, simply shows that you are in deliberate denial of the truth, a proponent of lies and deceit.

Occam's razor Kev .....

The Framers wanted security and thus qualities of high allegiance for those US citizens who would be eligible for POTUS....... they chose the highest allegiance.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

The person that you claim to be “born with American citizenship” today would not have been born with American citizenship under the standard used by the Founders and Framers and early Congress. Under their standard, any child born in the United State to parents who were not both U.S. citizens (there was no such thing as one citizen or alien parent until the Cable Act of 1922) was an alien or foreigner and in need of naturalization. Hence, that person was not a natural born citizen. We do not change the Constitution by subsequent Acts of Congress or by the Fourteenth Amendment which only defined a citizen of the United States and which did not amend Article II and the natural born citizen clause.

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...
"Since we know Mr. Wong was, in fact, a citizen and that all citizens are either naturalized or natural born, we are left to conclude that Mr. Wong was a natural born citizen."

----------------

This is where you show your deceitfulness more openly Kev. (bold-type)

The born citizen of the 14th Amendment are native-born.

Remember Kev, that BOTH the majorities of the Minor and WKA courts, held that the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be natural born citizens.

BOTH courts also recognized per citing Binney, that the term "natural born" was exclusive to those native-born to US citizens in direct contrast (same sentence)to "the child of an alien if born in the land".

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

More of you deceit is equating a “native-born citizen” to a “native” or “natural born citizen.” Native-born means nothing more than born in the United States. Anyone who wants to be President must be a native-born citizen. But birth in the country is a necessary condition, not a sufficient one.

Native or natural born citizen means born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Both birth in the country and birth to citizen parents are necessary and sufficient conditions to be satisfied in order to be a native or natural born citizen and therefore eligible to be President.
So, you can peddle your native-born citizen to the ignorant, but not to those who are well informed on the meaning of a native or natural born citizen.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

You continue to insist to consider any evidence in the light of your claim being true. This logical fallacy, known as "begging the question" is not only dishonest, but transparently juvenile as well.

If a piece of evidence (such as a quote) is equally valid under one interpretation as it is under another, then that evidence doesn't favor either interpretation. Much of what you post is like this.

For example, you quoted Thomas Jefferson as writing: "Resolved, That it is inconsistent with the interests of the United States to appoint any person not a natural born citizen thereof to the office of minister, charge d'affaires, consul, or vice-consul, or to any other civil department in a foreign country; and that a copy of this resolve be sent to Messrs. Adams, Franklin and Jay, ministers of the said States in Europe."

Which speaks to the importance Mr. Jefferson is placing on natural born citizenship, but not to how he defines it. The Virginia law which he authored, on the other hand, has him defining a natural born Virginian in exactly the same way that anti-birthers suggest natural born citizens of the US are defined. Taken together, these two quotes argue that, whatever you thought to be the chance that you were wrong, it should go up.

Then there's authority which just straight up speaks against your case---such as George Washington's preference for natives. This is perfectly consistent with our belief that native born and natural born are virtual synonyms (as well as the numerous state courts and legislatures that used them in this manner in both the era of the Founding as well as after it). On the other hand, it doesn't seem like General Washington was concerned about the parentage of his officers, just the location of their birth. While that doesn't contradict your argument outright, it does increase the likelihood of my explanation and decrease that of yours.

As for having someone like you calling my actions treasonous, that means even less than your legal opinions. Personally, I think playing the politics of division (as you do whenever you assume that all of your opponents are treasonous) is about the most unpatriotic thing that an American can do these days. We have major problems that need bipartisan solutions and legislators willing to work with the other side. Your desperate need to continue beating this dead horse while you cling to your straw man delusions regarding President Obama (just a hint, he is neither a communist, a socialist nor a liberal and he has reduced the budget deficit more than any other president before him) is all about putting your irrational hate for President Obama above the good of the country. If you're trying to act like a patriot, then I think you suck at it.

To paraphrase John Wayne, I know you didn't vote for him, but he's your president and you should hope he does a good job.

MichaelN,

Why should I respond to you when you have never once even acknowledged any of the hundreds of times that your theories have been debunked by myself and others? What would make this time any different?

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

I don't need to peddle my opinion to anyone---all credible authorities already share it. I'm just amusing myself by pointing out fallacies in your arguments.

ajtelles said...

1/3

A set contained within a set...

Marion, on April 24, 2014 at 1:01 AM, Slartibartfast, aka S..., responded to you,

[…]
>> “I scolded ajtelles for using a term that wasn't defined in context.
>> “Because "subordinate" wasn't defined in the context of set theory,
>> “the analogy Art was trying to make was completely bogus.”


- - - - - - - - - -

Hey, S..., the analogy I did make wasn't “bogus” because I wasn't using “subordinate” in the context of “set theory”. I merely responded to Uknown's comment by saying that what Unknown wrote could be “construed” in a different way, knowing that the intent of Obama-birthers is to defend the Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for a person to be eligible to be POTUS.

That means that a definition of “subordinate” in the “context” of “set theory” would have been irrelevant, because “set theory” did not pertain then and “set theory” still does not pertain now, to my “regular person” purpose for using the word “subordinate” on April 19, 2014 at 10:24 AM in a comment about Unknown's use of “proper subset.”

My comment was in “regular person” context, not in “set theory” context, as this quote of mine indicates -

>> “Hmmm...
>> “Whenever "someone", any Obama-birther "someone",
>> “says that "natural-born citizens" are a "subset" of "citizens",
>> “that could be construed as another way of saying
>> “that the U.S. Constitution is a "subset"
>> “of a naturalization act passed by the U.S. Congress.”

>> “Unless "subset" means something else,
>> "subset", which means "a set contained within a set",
>> “means being subordinate to something else in which it is contained.”


That is “regular person” language, S..., not “set theory” language. You know what a “regular person” is, right? A “regular person” is someone who wants a simple answer when, after reading some of your convoluted defenses of the Obama birth narrative, they ask themselves “what does THAT mean?” in normal language. That's what I'm doing by using “subordinate” in the context of the American Heritage Dictionary 6 word simple definition of “subset” as “a set contained within a set” to clarify the original intent of John Jay's underlining the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” with the implied but obvious “from birth”.

S..., it is you who is addressing a “bogus” issue, and it is you who is complicating a simple “regular person” comment into something it obviously is not. It is definitely not “set theory” language because that was NOT the intent of the “regular person” word “construed” in the phrase,

>> “... that could be construed as another way”,
notice “construed … another way”,
>> “... of saying that the U.S. Constitution is a 'subset' of a naturalization act passed by the U.S. Congress”.

ajtelles said...

2/3

A set contained within a set...

S..., you want change the focus to a discussion of “subset” and “proper subset” and “set theory” in general because the Obama-birthers are trying to retain the theory of the “lower hurdle” of the Obama birth narrative that birth on U.S. soil to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POUTS. My “regular person” focus remains on “another way” that Unknown's use of “proper subset” could be ”construed” by “regular persons” who may have read her comment and who do not analyze John Jay's “natural born Citizen” words with “set theory” presuppositions.

So, S..., you can digress into the weeds of “set theory”, which is a valid discussion in a different context, or you can return to the substantive conversation about the original intent of “natural born Citizen” as understood by John Jay when, in New York on July 25, 1787, five weeks after June 18, 1787 when Alexander Hamilton read to the Convention what is known as “The Hamilton Plan”, which contained in Article IX Section 1 the words, “now a Citizen … or … hereafter … born a citizen”, John Jay added the word “natural” to “born a citizen”, and, put the word “a” first, then Jay underlined the word “born” in “a natural born Citizen” with the implicit but obvious meaning of “from birth”, in his note to George Washington with the explicit comment,

[...]
"Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise and reasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of foreigners into the administration of our national government; and to declare expressly that the command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on any, but a natural born citizen. [a natural born citizen]
[...]
I remain, dear sir,
Your faithful friend and servant,
John Jay

>> http://www.kerchner.com/images/protectourliberty/johnjay1787lettertogeorgewashington.jpg

Read the “The Hamilton Plan” original at memory.loc.gov
>> http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llfr&fileName=003/llfr003.db&recNum=620&itemLink=r%3Fammem%2Fhlaw%3A@field%28DOCID%2B@lit%28fr0032%29%29%230030003&linkText=1

It starts this way -

>> “In connection with his important speech of June 18, Hamilton read a sketch of a plan of government which 'was meant only to give a more correct view of his ideas, and to suggest the amendments which he should probably propose to the plan of Mr. R. in the proper states of its future discussion.'

>> “Although this plan was not formally before the Convention in any way, several of the delegates made copies that show considerable differences in certain articles, … .”


The “The Hamilton Plan” Article IX is at
>> http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llfr&fileName=003/llfr003.db&recNum=632&itemLink=r%3Fammem%2Fhlaw%3A@field%28DOCID%2B@lit%28fr0032%29%29%230030003&linkText=1

>> “Article IX Sec. 1.
>> “No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States.

ajtelles said...

3/3

A set contained within a set...

Wikipedia.org, although it is not an authoritative source, it quotes an authority, Max Farrand, in a succinct statement in the section titled Constitutional Convention -

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

>> “The Constitution does not explain the meaning of "natural born".

>> “On June 18, 1787, Alexander Hamilton submitted to the Convention a sketch of a plan of government. The sketch provided for an executive "Governour" but had no eligibility requirements.

>> “At the close of the Convention, Hamilton conveyed a paper to James Madison he said delineated the Constitution that he wished had been proposed by the Convention; he had stated its principles during the deliberations.

>> “Max Farrand wrote that it ‘...was not submitted to the Convention and has no further value than attaches to the personal opinions of Hamilton.’ “


- - - - - - - - - -


Alexander Hamilton, The Works of Alexander Hamilton, (Federal Edition), vol. 1 [1774]
>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/simple.php?id=1378

John Jay, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, vol. 3 (1782-1793) [1891]
>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/simple.php?id=2329

- - - - - - - - - -

Also, S..., in contrast to the Wikipedia definition of “subset” that you posted earlier on April 21, 2014, from 4:30 AM to 4:56 AM, for those who might want and need a definitive articulation about "a derived binary relation between two sets, and in which “is the subset relation, also called set inclusion, and to which I responded on April 21, 2014 at 5:25 PM, here is a repeat of the very, very, VERY simple definition of “subset”, from the

American Heritage Dictionary
sub-set … n.
“A set contained within a set”.

That's all.
That's it.
That sounds right on to me.
How about to you, S...?

S..., let's get out of the “set theory” swamp, and come back to solid ground of actual words and actual quotes.

S..., now that you know that I am using the 6 word American Heritage Dictionary definition of “subset” that has only 2 multi-syllabic words instead of your Wikipedia definition, the first line of which contains a total of 15 words, lets look at John Jay's underlining the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” with the implied but still obvious “from birth” as meaning ONLY the “higher hurdle” of being born on U.S. soil, AND the “higher hurdle” of ONLY being born to TWO U.S. citizen parents and NOT the Obama birth narrative “lower hurdle” of being born ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent.

S..., does “set ... within” define being born on U.S. soil to TWO U.S. citizen parents, or does “set … within” define being born on U.S. soil to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent?

S..., is the “subset” of “natural born Citizen” “from birth” contained ONLY within the “set” of a TWO U.S. citizen parents?

S..., is the “subset” of “natural born Citizen” “from birth” contained ONLY within the “set” of ONE U.S. citizen parent and ONE foreign citizen parent?

S..., if BOTH parents are U.S. citizens, is the “subset” of “natural born Citizen” “from birth” contained within the set of BOTH parents being U.S. citizens or is it contained within the “set” of ONLY ONE of the U.S. citizen parents and NOT considering ALSO the other U.S. citizen parent?

S..., is the “subset” of “natural born Citizen” “from birth” contained in the “set” of BOTH “hurdles”, the “higher hurdle” of being born to TWO U.S. citizen parents and ALSO the “lower hurdle” of being born ONLY to ONE U.S. citizen parent and ONE foreign citizen parent?


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

MichaelN, on April 24, 2014 at 5:24 PM, said,

>> "Occam's razor Kev .....

>> "The Framers wanted security and thus qualities of high allegiance
>> "for those US citizens who would be eligible for POTUS.......
>> "they chose the highest allegiance."


- - - - - - - - - -

Dittos, MichaelN,

Ockham's razor supports the common sense of the "highest allegiance", the original way of referring to the "higher hurdle" of John Jay vs the "lower hurdle" of the Obama-birthers who defend the Obama birth narrative, that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent was John Jay's original intent when he underlined "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit but obvious "from birth" meaning.

The Obirthers defend ONE U.S. citizen parent because that the BEST that their guy had to offer to the American electorate.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

There is much confusion here about set theory. Unknown and the Obots have been arguing for years that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens. I said that they are in error because natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens, not a subset and asked Slartibarfast, who tells us has a Ph.D. in mathematics, to admit the error.

He did not deny my point that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens. But rather than admit the Obot error of which he and Unknown/NotLinda are a part, he says that when we say that a natural born citizen is a proper subset of citizen, it is “implied” (his word) that a natural born citizen is a subset of a citizen. Like everything that he writes on a natural born citizen, his set theory explanation is false because with natural born citizens being a proper subset of citizens, it is ruled out that natural born citizens could be a subset of citizens.

The simple reason for this is that all natural born citizens are citizens, but not all citizens are natural born citizens. There is only one and only one definition of a natural born citizen which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. There are, however, different definitions of a “citizen of the United States.” Hence, there is no equality between the two sets and therefore, one cannot be a subset of the other but only a proper subset, with natural born citizens being the proper subset of citizens because all natural born citizens are citizens (the former is included in the latter), but not all citizens are natural born citizens (the latter excluding all other citizens but itself from the latter and therefore not all of the former are included in the latter).

So, Slartibartfast tells us he has a Ph.D. in mathematics. I just do not understand how that could be true when he injects “implication” into set theory (an element either is or is not included in a set) and he does not know the difference between a subset and a proper subset.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

What does it mean for one set to be subordinate to another?

At this point I'm sure that everyone reading has more than enough information to decide which of us is rational and which one of us isn't, but if you would like me to answer you, you will stop misrepresenting my positions (hint: I do not believe that one citizen parent is necessary for natural born citizenship). By continually making straw men, all you do is demonstrate that you have no confidence in your ability to honestly debate my arguments.

ajtelles said...

Misapprehending and misrepresenting...

S..., I'm not misrepresenting your position. You are misrepresenting my position.

S..., let's get out of the “set theory” swamp, and come back to solid ground of actual words and actual quotes.

Obama-birthers seem to be stuck in in the swamp of the ONE U.S. parent theory as they are trying to defend the "lower hurdle" of the Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is the implicit meaning of John Jay underling the word "born" in "natural born Citizen". The Obirthers can not admit, because THEIR guy had only ONE U.S. citizen parent, that Jay's implicit intent was the "higher hurdle" of ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents were necessary to produce a "citizen" "from birth" who was ALSO a "natural born Citizen" "from birth" because the citizenship status of "citizen" was derived from BOTH parent who were BOTH U.S. citizen.

TWO is better than ONE.
TWO is a "higher hurdle".
ONE is a "lower hurdle".

Only TWO U.S. citizen can bestow the ONE "citizen" status "from birth" as compared to a DUAL citizenship status, and ONLY a "citizen" "from birth" with TWO U.S. citizen parents qualifies as a "natural born Citizen" "from birth".

The "set theory" swamp, "proper subset" or not, is not a productive place from which to opine about solid ground concepts and original intent about original words written by the original birthers.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"The Obots argue that the Fourteenth Amendment and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898), which both came over 80 years after the adoption of the Constitution, define what a natural born citizen is. The logic of such an argument is to say that a natural born citizen is an evolving concept which has changed from when the Founders and Framers first inserted it into the Constitution in 1787."

Wrong, right, then wrong again. No, the Fourteenth Amendment does not define "natural-born citizen", but yes, U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark 169 U.S. 649 (1898) does. The logic is to follow what the Court actually says on the matter in Wong. The Opinion did not suggest that the meaning of "natural-born citizen" is evolving. On the contrary, it considered the language in which the Constitution is written, as understood by the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers.

Wong informs us that our Constitution is framed in the language of English common law, even though we did not, at the national level, adopt any common law as our own:

"There is no common law of the United States, in the sense of a national customary law, distinct from the common law of England as adopted by the several States each for itself, applied as its local law, and subject to such alteration as may be provided by its own statutes." "There is, however, one clear exception to the statement that there is no national common law. The interpretation of the Constitution of the United States is necessarily influenced by the fact that its provisions are framed in the language of the English common law, and are to be read in the light of its history." -- At 655, quoting Smith v. Alabama.

Except we use "citizen" where the English used "subject":

"The term `citizen,' as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term `subject' in the common law, and the change of phrase has entirely resulted from the change of government. The sovereignty has been transferred from one man to the collective body of the people; and he who before was a `subject of the king' is now `a citizen of the State.'" -- At 664 quoting State v. Manuel.

"Subject and citizen are, in a degree, convertible terms as applied to natives; and though the term citizen seems to be appropriate to republican freemen, yet we are, equally with the inhabitants of all other countries, subjects, for we are equally bound by allegiance and subjection to the government and law of the land." -- At 665 quoting Kent's Commentaries.

Wong states the definition in English common law:

"`Natural-born British subject' means a British subject who has become a British subject at the moment of his birth." -- At 657 quoting A.V. Dicey's Conflict of Laws.

As the Court told us, "The term `citizen,' as understood in our law, is precisely analogous to the term `subject' in the common law". Thus, under our Constitution, which is framed in the language of English law, "natural-born United States citizen" means a United States citizen who has become a United States Citizen at the moment of his birth. Today we use more explicitly inclusive language, but without changing the meaning we arrive at:

"Natural-born United States citizen" means a United States citizen who has become a United States Citizen at the moment of his or her birth.

ajtelles said...

Subset + proper subset ratiocination vs original intent ratiocination...

Mario, for quick scanning, I opened up your April 24, 2014 at 8:39 PM paragraphs for my edification, and by putting simple set theory language into “regular person” language, I have come up with this simple statement that works for me as I put the complicated into simple terms for my friends who ask “what does THAT mean?”, and can you put it in simpler terms.

The three word unit “natural born Citizen” “from birth” is a “proper subset” of citizen because the “higher allegiance” of a “natural born Citizen” with TWO U.S. citizens “from birth” trumps the “lower allegiance” of a “citizen” “from birth”, who may or may not have been born on U.S. soil, with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent.

In other words and in even more simple words for my friends, Mario, the ONE U.S. citizen parent is included in the TWO U.S. citizen parents ratiocination, but the TWO U.S. citizen parents is NOT included in the ONE U.S. citizen parent ratiocination.

>> "with natural born citizens being the proper subset of citizens
>> "because all natural born citizens are citizens
>> "(the former is included in the latter),
>> "but not all citizens are natural born citizens
>> "(the latter excluding all other citizens but itself
>> “from the latter
>> "and therefore
>> "not all of the former are included in the latter)."


Got it. I think. In very simple terms,

ONE is included in TWO.
TWO is NOT included in ONE.

>> “ONE U.S. citizen parent
>> “IS included in the TWO U.S. citizen parents ratiocination, but
>> “TWO U.S. citizen parents
>> “is NOT included in the ONE U.S. citizen parent ratiocination.”

Now I just have to tell my friends what “ratiocination” means.
Ratiocination means relating a point to the next point logically, and staying out of the “set theory” swamp.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, if original intent ratiocination of the original birthers original words, specifically the Convention delegate “Ratifiers” who put their names to the ratified document, does not fulfill the souls of the Obama-birthers who insist that the “lower hurdle” and “lower allegiance” of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen is sufficient and fulfills their political and intellectual souls better than the “higher hurdle” and the “higher allegiance” of the original intent of John Jay, for example, whose “a natural born Citizen” suggestion to George Washington was accepted and passed on by Washington to the Convention delegate Framers for their consideration, and which was accepted and adopted by them in 1787 and ratified starting in 1788, then the Obirthers have every right to be wrong as they insist that they prefer Alexander Hamilton's suggestion of “... born a citizen” to help defend their Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent ratiocination, even though “... born a citizen” was rejected by the Convention delegate Framers.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...
"MichaelN,

Why should I respond to you when you have never once even acknowledged any of the hundreds of times that your theories have been debunked by myself and others? What would make this time any different?"
--------------------------

Problem you have Kev, is that you are either delusional or simply continuing to lie to think or say that the FACTS ( not theories) I have pointed out have been debunked by you or any of your fellow traitors.

Truth of the matter is that you refuse to address my points, because you are unable to debunk them, you either make up your lame excuse that you and your fellow traitors have already debunked my points, or you go all silent and run away.

What a joke you are Kev.

Fact (not theory)... NOWHERE was it ever held or opined in the English common law that native-birth sufficed to make a natural born subject.

Fact (not theory) in English law, for a native-born child of an alien father, to be a subject, the father must be a subject, for if the child was "not born under the ligeance of a subject", then the child cannot be a subject at all.

It follows that if "subject" and "citizen" are "precisely analogous" (see WKA opinion)then for a native-born child of an alien to be a NBC, then that child must necessarily be born under the allegiance of a US citizen father.

Fact (not theory)... BOTH SCOTUS majorities in the Minor and WKA cases, recognized with favor that,

1) a natural born citizen of the US is one who is native-born and born to US citizen parents.
2) that the 14th Amendment (as a part of the US Constitution) does not say who shall be a natural born citizen.
3) that there were unsolved doubts whether native-birth alone sufficed to even make a US citizen (let alone a NBC)
4)that there were two types of born US citizens of the US and that the term/language "natural born" applied exclusively to the native-born children of US citizens, in contrast with (as mentioned in the same sentence)"the child of an alien, if born in the country".

Non of the above are "theories" Kev.

They are all facts which you choose to deny,....... why? ..... because you are dishonest, a traitor, hell bent on destroying the security of the US with your airy-fairy delusional utopian fantasy of a new world order.

You are such a loser Kev.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"There is much confusion here about set theory."

Yes, and it's a recent development here on your blog. Back in the day, Charles Kerchner wrote over and over that the set of natural-born citizens is a subset of citizens. His underlying legal theory was without merit, but he knew what a subset is.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Unknown and the Obots have been arguing for years that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens."

Yes, that far obots agree with eligibility-deniers, at least with the ones who understand simple math terms. The issue is *which* subset.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I said that they are in error because natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens, not a subset and asked Slartibarfast, who tells us has a Ph.D. in mathematics, to admit the error."

I love it when you write things like that. In the future, when I quote you on it, I may need to trim some context. Were I to state it as: Mario Apuzzo Esquire wrote, "natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens, not a subset", would that be fair? I just need to make plain, as efficiently as possible, that you actually do hold that a proper subset is not a subset.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"He did not deny my point that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens."

That little point appeared in this thread on Feb 5 when I wrote, "My position is, and has been for some years, that the Article II natural born citizens are the proper subset of United States citizens that [...]" You don't like *which* proper subset I and your courts say it is, but even so, you didn't tell me it's a "proper subset". I told you.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"There is only one and only one definition of a natural born citizen which is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth."

So why is it so easy to find others stated and implied in your own chosen citation and in the outcomes of your own cases?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"So, Slartibartfast tells us he has a Ph.D. in mathematics. I just do not understand how that could be true when he injects “implication” into set theory"

When Charles Kerchner presented those Venn diagrams, did you think he was just trying to draw Mickey Mouse?

Unknown said...

the Founders were very concerned about foreign influence in US govt and Presidency so i wonder if they wouldve considered a child of a foreign father a foreign citizen? Amazingly enough i have heard that children follow the condition of the fathers for many centurys and probably back to Roman empire at least. Even though barry was born a foreign citizen and still is one to this day having never renounced his supposed british citizenship i know the Founders wouldve wanted a foreign citizen as CiC because they did not want a foreign influence in Govt. That really makes a lot of sense and i have finally seen the light. After kicking the King of England out of US i am certain the Founders wanted a british colonial citizen to be President at some point. Some would say only a total idiot, liar or traitor would believe or spew such nonsense.

MichaelN said...

Ajtelles stated the fact that.....

" "born a citizen" was rejected by the Convention delegate Framers."

This is consistent with Wong SCOTUS majority, where two types of born US citizens was recognized favorably and also that the language term "natural born" was exclusive to those native-born to US citizen parents, in contrast to "the child of an alien... if born in the country", hence Wong only being deemed a "citizen of the United States" and NOT a NBC.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Maybe you missed the bold sentence in my quote from Wikipedia, so here is the definition of the term "proper subset" again:

A is a proper subset of B if and only if A is a subset of B and B is not a subset of A.

Why are you trying to claim something that anyone who has read and understood the first chapter of any book on set theory knows to be ridiculous?

As for the term "implies", it is well-defined (and therefore may be used) in any axiomatic system. To say "A implies B" is the same as saying "if A then B".

Maybe it's just me, but this line of argument seems unusually inane---even for you. What's next, objecting to my use of the word "the"?

Seriously, how long are you guys going to keep this up? You have no victories in court (and over 200 losses) to show for the last five years and your perfect record will never change. Even if it did, no court has the jurisdiction to remove President Obama from office. Even were it possible to get a court to do this, how will telling me that I'm wrong for not using a term in a way that is contradicted by its definition accomplish that?

MichaelN said...

This is a second (amended) response to Slartibartfast who said...
"Since we know Mr. Wong was, in fact, a citizen and that all citizens are either naturalized or natural born, we are left to conclude that Mr. Wong was a natural born citizen."

I'll fix it for you Kev.

Here...

"Since we know Mr. Wong was, in fact, a citizen and that all citizens are either naturalized or born, we are left to conclude that Mr. Wong was a born citizen."

Since the SCOTUS majority, in the Wonk Kim Ark case, recognized that the 14th Amendment does not say who shall be a natural born citizen, we are left to conclude that Mr. Wong was was in fact a BORN "citizen of the United States" and that the SCOTUS majority was absolutely correct in NOT deeming Mr. Wong a "natural born Citizen" of the United States, as the SCOTUS majority in the WKA case recognized TWO types of born US citizens and also that the language term "natural born" exclusively pertained to a native-born to US citizen parents as was contrasted, in the same sentence, with "the child of an alien, if born in the country".

Fact: NOWHERE in the English common law or the "common law" referred to in the Minor V Happersett case, was it ever held or opined by the SCOTUS majority or the English law that native-birth alone would make a natural born subject/citizen.

Only the native-born to a subject/citizen father could be a natural born subject/citizen.

Chief Justice Horace Gray of the SCOTUS in Wong Kim Ark case, used the English model to demonstrate how TWO qualities were required to make a natural born subject and applied those two qualities to Mr. Wong to qualify Mr. Wong as a born "citizen of the United States" per the provisions of the 14th Amendment, which the court recognized DID NOT SAY, who shall be a natural born citizen of the US.

Anonymous said...

Slarti pontificated: "Since we know Mr. Wong was, in fact, a citizen and that all citizens are either naturalized or natural born, we are left to conclude that Mr. Wong was a natural born citizen."

You facts are as defective as your logic, -same with Mario. There are five main kinds of citizens; natural citizens; natural-ized citizens; common law citizens; derivative citizens; and statutory citizens.
Do you really dare to claim with no basis whatsoever that four of the five are natualized?
Common law citizens are not naturalized. Derivative citizens are not naturalized. And statutory citizens likewise. Each has its own means of citizenship acquisition.
Only those who speak the oath of Allegiance & Renunciation before a magistrate of a court of record is a naturalized citizen. None of the others have any record of naturalization because they are not naturalized, nor are they natural citizens.
You both need your erroneous thinking patterns re-wired.

Obot's version of Art II: "No person except a native-born citizen, or a citizen of the U.S. at the time of the adoption...who shall have resided in the U.S. for 14 years, shall be eligible..."

It's totally fallacious to read native-born into the word "natural". Also, the residency requirement is NOT attached to only naturalized and common law citizens, but to natural born citizens as well, indicating a possible foreign birth. Thus John McCain could have lived in Panama into his fifties before moving to the U.S. and running for President in his seventies.

"Natural-born United States citizen" means a United States citizen who has become a United States Citizen at the moment of his or her birth."

There is no such term as "Natural-born United States citizen" in the Constitution.

There is no hyphen, which reveals your lack of comprehension of the subject, -and there is no United States. All natural citizens were State citizens first and foremost as the States were fathers of the union.
"at the moment of birth" is not natural citizenship. That requires "at the moment" of conception.

With natural citizens it is not a matter of timing (at birth, or at one year, or at ten years -like Cuba) it is a matter of origin, of nature, of inheritance, NOT TIMING!

If a baby's nationality is not innate before birth, then it is an alien-born common law citizen and not a natural one.

Anonymous said...

~from a new exposition posted today, titled:
The Abandoned Truth About Nationality & Presidential Eligibility (From Calvin to the Supreme Court; the Conflicting Origins of Nationality) 8,750 words.

"So membership was only by blood or by oath, -not by birth location even though the States continued to treat the alien-born native "sons of the soil" as citizens. Such a conundrum and conflict could not find reconciliation and never has. Instead the conflict is ignored or rejected in the minds of those who embrace the British common law view of citizenship by government mandate.

Those who embrace Liberty and individual rights will not accept the rules and doctrines of government as being the basis of their natural right to be a member of their own family, clan, country, or nation.

Which one do you embrace? Are you a loyalist toward British common law and the supreme authority of government? Or are you a patriot toward the supremacy of Natural Law and natural belonging?

Who do you believe owns you? Yourself?, or the Government? Who do you believe has a natural right to be an American, outsiders and their off-spring, -or only insiders, Americans, and theirs?

That question doesn't ask about "the right" to be an American. It asks about the natural right, because the presidency is not precluded to those with a natural right but only to those with merely a legal right to be Americans.

Was your father an alien when you were born? Was he an immigrant to America with a Green Card granting a right to permanent residency?

If so then you were born with a legal right to be an American thanks to the Supreme Court opinion in the Wong case based on the 14th Amendment based on the common law based on the Calvin case that was over 400 years ago.

But that means that you are not eligible to be President because it means that you are not a natural citizen of any American State. You are merely a legal citizen. A common law citizen. A 14th Amendment citizen. A Wong opinion citizen. A Calvin case citizen. And therein lies the difference.

Natural versus legal. There is no middle ground in logic nor fact, but there is plenty of motive to ignore and deny both. And that is exactly what the supporters of the Obama regime do and have done from the beginning....

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/the-abandoned-truth-about-nationality-presidential-eligibility/

ajtelles said...

Simplicity...

Mario, the "set theory" language weeds are growing profusely as they are watered by the Obama-birthers at the same time that the Obirthers are deliberately causing the drought of point-counterpoint about whether or not "natural born Citizen" with the implicit but still obvious "from birth" meaning refers to ONLY birth on U.S. soil and ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

Yesterday on April 24, 2014 at 11:04 PM, I planted some deliberately convoluted “set theory” language weeds myself to mingle with the deliberately convoluted and confusing “set theory” weeds of Unknown and S..., but I've changed my mind on the merits of getting into the “set theory” weeds with the two Obirthers who are singing the sirens song from the “set theory” weeds because they can not stand on the solid ground of the original intent of the original words of the original birthers, the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers.

Yesterday I wrote -

>> “Mario, for quick scanning, I opened up your April 24, 2014 at 8:39 PM paragraphs for my edification, and by putting simple set theory language into “regular person” language, I have come up with this simple statement that works for me as I put the complicated into simple terms for my friends who ask “what does THAT mean?”, and can you put it in simpler terms.

>> “The three word unit “natural born Citizen” “from birth” is a “proper subset” of citizen because the “higher allegiance” of a “natural born Citizen” with TWO U.S. citizens “from birth” trumps the “lower allegiance” of a “citizen” “from birth”, who may or may not have been born on U.S. soil, with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent.

>> “In other words and in even more simple words for my friends, Mario, the ONE U.S. citizen parent is included in the TWO U.S. citizen parents ratiocination, but the TWO U.S. citizen parents is NOT included in the ONE U.S. citizen parent ratiocination.”


Mario, in paragraph #2 I put in the set theory language “proper subset”, but it absolutely does NOT matter to “original intent” if the set theory language is only “subset” or “proper subset” or “a set contained within a set”, as found in the American Heritage Dictionary, or S...fast's oh so thoughtful and oh so helpful "a derived binary relation between two sets, and in which “is the subset relation, also called set inclusion, because simple question like the following are the cure for the proliferation of the weeds and confusion caused by the two Obirthers Unknown and S...fast talk about “set theory” but will NOT address the original intent of the original birthers, John Jay, for example.

1-Does "natural born Citizen" with the implicit "from birth" meaning refer to ONLY birth on U.S. soil?
2-Does “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” meaning refer to ALSO birth on foreign soil?

3-Does “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” meaning refer to ONLY birth to TWO U.S. citizen parents?
4-Does “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” meaning refer to ALSO birth to ONE U.S. citizen parent?
5-Does “natural born Citizen” with the implicit“from birth” meaning refer to ONLY birth to ONE U.S. citizen parent?

- - - - - - - - - -

The “regular person” language is so much easier to comprehend and to answer, maybe Unknown and S...fast will get out of the muck and mire of the “set theory” weeds and join us on the solid ground of original intent.

Sheesh, silly me, what am I thinking.

The Obama-birthers can NOT join us on the solid ground of original intent, cause their defense of the Obama birth narrative demands that they remain obtuse and convoluted in the “set theory” weeds as they protect the Obirther theory that ONLY ONE U.S. parent is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS 'cause the best THEIR guy could offer to the American electorate was ONLY ONE U.S. parent.

Sheesh.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Carlyle said...

@ Slartibartfast said... "Carlyle,
There are several checks against an ineligible candidate … "

------------------------------

You kinda skipped my main point. Suppose a damning eligibility fact were discovered late - perhaps even after the innauguration? Then what?

You also misjudge motives. I am not racist nor a sore loser. Personally, my main concern is that with what is currently known about The One, he could not pass a simple background check for a routine security clearance. Revelations from withheld/suppressed documents would either clear things up or make things worse. I don't know.

You also mention failed attempts and rulings against birthers. Surely you must know that no such ruling has been made on merit or in light of evidence.

I am not much for theorizing and legal logic chopping. I just want the facts to be put to the American people so we can judge for ourselves.

And before you say the people have already spoken: Please be aware that The People elected a cartoon, a manufactured personality. I of course don't know for sure, but I am highly suspicious that the actual Obama (or whoever he is) could never get elected.

So, in the meantime, we have a significant and dreadful national security crisis: Who is this guy? Who does he represent? And what does he want?

These seem like reasonable questions. It is quite telling that there is so much resistance to getting them answered.

Anonymous said...

-something currently in development~

The view that the founders had, (and enshrined in the Declaration of Independence) was in total opposition to the view of the supporters of the traditional (common law) system of nationality determination.

It was a war of natural inclusion versus assigned membership by established policy.

One side viewed children of aliens as aliens by inherited political nature, -being naturally included only in their parents' group, -while the other continued viewing them as before the revolution; subjects / citizens via birth location and parental subjection to the sovereign's rule.

Those men failed to grasp the fact that sovereignty was not vested in a superior entity known as Government, but was vested in The PEOPLE.

They were the new sovereigns, and all natural rights belonged to them as co-equal members of a free national family.

Did the two competing sides discuss the situation and hash-out a solution? I suspect that they never discussed the conflict even once.
I suspect that it remained under their radar and not acknowledged to even exist until after the Constitution was ratified and the first Congress was seated.

After all, it was a war of fundamental philosophical differences.
Consequently, when General Washington, -during the constitutional convention, had the presidential eligibility issue put before the members, with the proposed requirement that he must be a natural born citizen, one of either of four scenarios resulted.

Either they all understood it from the same perspective, with none of them viewing it as a term related to the common law, or all of them did.
-Or some of them did and some of them didn't but no one spoke up about a possible divergence of view because they weren't aware that others might see it differently.

-Or they knew that others saw it differently but did not want to engage in a war of words about such an arcane subject as whether or not American sons born of foreigners (immigrants) would or would not be barred from being President in the distant future when many or most of them would be dead.

And so there was no recorded discussion of the matter. Both sides could assume that the words meant what they assumed they meant and not concern themselves with whether or not all others agreed with their view.

And so today we are engaged in the discussion that they never had, and seeking proof of what is the real American truth, -and not the British truth of the matter.

A. Nash

Robert said...

A scene from the Convention 1776:

Gentlemen:
We have clearly decided that the office of the President and Commander in Chief shall be held only by a natural born citizen or, since there are no
natural born citizens, yet; a citizen at the time of the adoption of this document.

But, Sirs, we have a situation brewing. We have a guy that I think you should really look at. The problem is that he was born either to a non-citizen father and an underage mother or an unknown or unacknowledged citizen father (who hates this country) - both events occurring in some unknown place. This fellow claims to have been born here, but he has also claimed to have been born in a foreign country. We have no documentary or witnessed proof of either. Well, except that his grandmother said she was at his birth overseas, but has since changed her story.

Interruption: Are you nuts? What about our national security? How can you even consider this guy? I know more about the guy who feeds my farm animals than this!!

Continuing: Well, you have to understand that this guy has a really great baritone voice: actually quite hypnotic in quality. It's quite attractive to a lot of the uneducated masses. And, although he stutters and stammers a lot, he can still read prepared papers really well.

Interruption: But, is he even qualified? Is he able to think on his own? Does he support the revolution? What about our Constitution? It sounds like you're looking for an official national document reader, not for the POTUS - CIC.

Continuing: To be quite frank, we haven't seen anything to show that he is in any way qualified for the job. He hasn't exposed any evidence of even a single independent thought or any real evidence of his formal studies or professional background.

This gentleman is notably against our founding principles and constitution. But, on the other hand, he's making some of the most wonderful promises we've ever heard. Now, I know that you're going to want to know what promises he's ever kept and discuss how he's done this but, to be honest, I just can't tell you of any. But, really, these promises are amazing!! He's really captured the minds and hearts of the selfish, ignorant and slothful. Everything is going to be free!! The earth will be healed. And, all men will act as brothers towards one another!! -- er, except for Christians, property owners, gun owners, and some other folks he doesn't respect.

Interruption: My God, man!! Are you mad!! What on earth would cause you to bring such a ridiculous case to this august body?

Continuing: Well, he does have very nice teeth and his pecs glint in the sun.

Interruption: So, you want us to take a look at this guy because he's athletic?

Continuing: Actually, nobody ever said he was athletic. He doesn't know how to sit on a horse, doesn't know one end of a rifle from another, he throws an axe like your baby sister, can't hit the broadside of a barn with a rock at ten feet, and has to stand right next to the bushel basket to load it with apples or peaches. But, he can spend hours looking at himself in a mirror and he does send chills up the legs of one of the local news guys.

Also, he has an opinion on every one of our sporting teams and he's even better at picking winners than Ben's mule!! - Well, most of the time.

Interruption: Oh, I get it, April Fools Day!! Right?"

ajtelles said...

Stories vs Subset Theory...


Robert your story, titled "A scene from the Convention 1776", seems to me to be an excellent way to counter the sirens song of the "set theory" aficionados S...fast and Unknown, who NEVER discuss the original intent of the original birthers and NEVER adduce their debates as they try to defend the theory of the Obama birther narrative of the eligibility "lower hurdle" that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POTUS.

- - - - - - - - - -

>>"Gentlemen:
>> "We have clearly decided that the office of the President and Commander in Chief shall be held only by a natural born citizen [...].

>> "But, Sirs, we have a situation brewing.
>> "We have a guy that I think you should really look at.
>> "The problem is that
>> "he was born either to a non-citizen father and an underage mother
>> "or an unknown or unacknowledged citizen father
>> "(who hates this country) -
>> "both events occurring in some unknown place.

>> "This fellow claims to have been born here,
>> "but he has also claimed to have been born in a foreign country.
>> "We have no documentary or witnessed proof of either.
>> "Well, except that his grandmother said she was at his birth overseas,
>> "but has since changed her story.

>> "Interruption:
>> "Are you nuts?
>> "What about our national security?
>> "How can you even consider this guy?
>> "I know more about the guy who feeds my farm animals than this!!"




Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Unknown said...

speaking of occams razor, the simplest and truest statement of wka decision is that he was ruled a citizen of the US by Supreme Court so i am going to make a true statement and say he was ruled a citizen of the US by 1898 US SC and as a citizen of the US in 1898 he would be eligible for congress but not CiC or VP. One of these days obots will realize that truth is exact correspondence to reality. If the state judges were being honest then they would say that for article 2 purposes a child of a alien is a NBC because the modern day boss tweeds (both democrats of course) want a lying fraud on the ballot and we are sniveling, unprincipled corrupt cowards. I would rather have someone say they are going to screw us on purpose instead of lying, at least i could respect them for being honest.

Robert said...

AJ
S & U are happy to play the "Down the Rabbit Hole" game as long as anyone will play with them. They really don't care whether or not they ever win the argument. In fact, they know they can't. If their intent was to show that Mr. Obama is eligible and if they had any real evidence to support this, it would have been presented by now and blogs like this would have ended long ago. In fact, they probably would have never started.

You can be sure that they are fully aware that Mr. Obama is not and never will be constitutionally qualified for office. They know that they can't even show that Mr. Obama's even a citizen, much less a natural born citizen. But, they don't care. They just want to keep the game going.

Why? The game keeps weak minded folks from seeing the obvious and following it through its just course: A natural born citizen is one born in the country to two citizen parents. Mr. Obama is not a natural born citizen. Mr. Obama is not a legal President. It's way past time to remove Mr. Obama from office.

It extends the conversation so that they can pursue their dastardly and traitorous ends as long as possible. It causes the honorable people who are truly interested in preserving our constitution and this nation to delay taking the more aggressive measures that they also have the right to employ.

Our enemies know that honorable people are slow to recognize ill will in others and even slower to act with force. And, they know that the momentum of Normalcy is in their favor. People just don't really expect or want to acknowledge that our governmental servants - the Representatives, Senators, and Governors that we elected - would sell us all down the river. After all, we voted for them, didn't we?

Clearly, we are not dealing with honorable people. Or, if there are any honorable people remaining, they have been silenced beyond the range of their courage and love for this country. It's also clear that the depths of this treachery reach much further than most folks are willing to contemplate. These domestic enemies of the state are very cold and calculating and they do not have the best interests of this country or its citizens at heart.

This will end well only if we continue to teach the truth and pray like our country and the lives of all we love depends on it: because, it does!!

Slartibartfast said...

Slartibartfast said... "Carlyle,
There are several checks against an ineligible candidate … "

------------------------------

You kinda skipped my main point. Suppose a damning eligibility fact were discovered late - perhaps even after the innauguration? Then what?

Impeachment (or removal by the cabinet) would be the only available options. If the "damning fact" was covered up by fraud on the part of the candidate, I would guess that impeachment would be a viable option. On the other hand, if it just wasn't discovered by the opposition (at any level) before the inauguration, then the opponents failed to do their due diligence and the president shouldn't be punished for that (it could, obviously, be used against his reelection bid). Personally, I would not vote for either impeachment or conviction in that case.

You also misjudge motives. I am not racist nor a sore loser.

I'm not interested in your motives and have called you neither a racist nor a sore loser. I'm interested in what can reasonably be inferred about your bias and integrity from your writings.

Personally, my main concern is that with what is currently known about The One,


The only people who refer to President Obama in messianic terms are those with Obama Derangement Syndrome. Right off the bat this suggests that you will be unable to look at anything regarding President Obama objectively. In other words, what is known and what you think is known are two very different things.

he could not pass a simple background check for a routine security clearance.

Why not? His birth certificate is unquestionable (backed by the full faith and credit of Hawai'i) and there are many people who remember knowing him at every stage of his life---not to mention that there is absolutely no evidence that the people who say they knew him in the past in order to smear him (like Larry Sinclair or Mia Pope) are anything but scurrilous liars who most likely have never even met him.


Revelations from withheld/suppressed documents would either clear things up or make things worse. I don't know.


What withheld/suppressed documents? President Obama has not withheld any documents that presidential candidates generally release (as opposed to Mitt Romney who refused to comply with the custom of releasing a decade of tox returns which was started by his own father) and his documents are protected by the same laws that protect your documents. When you start holding President Obama to standards that no other candidate has been held to in the history of our Repbulic, your double standards become obvious.

You also mention failed attempts and rulings against birthers. Surely you must know that no such ruling has been made on merit or in light of evidence.

The court in Ankeny ruled President Obama to be a natural born citizen (as have other courts). Judge Malihi in Georgia said that the birther evidence (presented against an empty chair) had "little to no probabive value". At least three Secretaries of State have asked for and received verifications of his birth information from Hawai'i. The problem with the birthers is not that no rulings have been made on the merits or the evidence, it's that they don't have any evidence to speak of and their legal theories have no merit---both of which have been pointed out in courts. I would also note that the concept of "standing" is, in fact, a merit of a case, not to mention that it is the US Constitution that requires courts to only hear issues where there is an appropriate case or controversy. You wouldn't want the courts to bend the Constitution just to entertain birther cases, would you?

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

I am not much for theorizing and legal logic chopping. I just want the facts to be put to the American people so we can judge for ourselves.

The facts were put up to the American people. A majority of voters decided they were comfortable enough with President Obama to vote for him. Twice. In the 2012 election, the birthers had 4 years to figure out how to properly raise the issue either in the courts or the court of public opinion. They failed. A lot. How many bites at the apple do you think you should get before you're forced to admit that you have no teeth?

And before you say the people have already spoken: Please be aware that The People elected a cartoon, a manufactured personality.

We knew more about President Obama that we have most presidential candidates. After all, he had written an autobiography. If you would look at his presidency without the lens of your hatred, you would see that President Obama hasn't governed as a communist, a socialist or even a liberal, but as a center-right moderate. His signature legislation (Obamacare) was essentially the same plan proposed by Bob Dole, endorsed by the Heritage Foundation and signed into law by Mitt Romney. He has also reduced the budget deficit more than any other president in history (including Clinton). Not to mention that taxes under Obama are lower than they have been under any modern president. These are all objective facts. Republicans tried to portray President Obama as "scary" and "unknown" and "other" in 2008 and the American people didn't buy it. Why you would think that the same tactic that failed before would work in 2012 (or now) is beyond me, but we've had 5 years to watch the policies being enacted by the Obama administration and it's just not consistent with the rhetoric from the right.


I of course don't know for sure, but I am highly suspicious that the actual Obama (or whoever he is) could never get elected.

In the real world, he did.

So, in the meantime, we have a significant and dreadful national security crisis: Who is this guy?

The duly elected President of the United States. For another three years, anyway.

Who does he represent?

I would have to say that he does a much better job representing those who didn't vote for him than did his predecessor.

And what does he want?


I assume he's pretty much like most politicians---he wants power and influence and to help people. Why would you assume his motives are any different than yours or mine?

These seem like reasonable questions. It is quite telling that there is so much resistance to getting them answered.

All of the reasonable and signficant questions have been answered. You just don't like the answers. What's left are questions based on double standards, misinformation and disinformation. Why aren't you willing to judge President Obama on an objective assesment of his performance relative to his predecessors?

Presidential candidates get to choose what information they wish to release and how they wish to present themselves. Voters get to choose whether or not that is sufficient to win their vote. Politicians can choose to conceal things and pay the political price, as Mitt Romney did with his tax returns (probably covering up his use of a one-time tax amnesty) or be open as President Obama was with his birth certificate, becoming, as far as I know, the first presidential candidate to release their birth certificate.

Stranger said...

St. George Tucker, Blackstone's Commentaries 1:App. 316--25, 328--29
Document 18 1803

"A president of the United States must have attained the middle age of life, before he is eligible to that office: if not a native, he must have been fourteen years a resident in the United States:"

WAIT! BACK-UP! "if not a NATIVE,"!!!

Clearly, the man understood that in America nationality was via descent for all natural citizens, and therefore common law citizens were not natural citizens because they all had to be born within the national borders.

That means that everyone else here is wrong. What else is new? I've been trying to inform you stubborn boneheads but you're so full of your embraced dogmas that you won't listen to anything but the voices inside your own heads.

Too much to protect. Must not let the chips fall where they may. That could be disaster. Well, chew on that disaster for a while. BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG! The truth lies elsewhere.

Natural born citizens are citizens by blood. Nothing else. Everything and anything else is not natural but contrived. Birth place could not be more contrived of a factor when it comes to natural inclusion.

ajtelles said...

1/3

A “back in the day” pattern “today”...

Mario, on April 25, 2014 at 12:56 AM, Unknown, aka Unknown #11 (see the reference to #11 below), one of two persistent Obama-birthers posting on your blog, Unknown revealed something that got my attention about why Obirthers have been hanging around for some time and posting here as defenders of the Obama birth narrative “lower hurdle” that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen is sufficient for a person to be eligible to be POTUS.

The next day, on April 26, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Slartibartfast, aka S...st, using the words, “socialist”, “communist”, “liberal”, “center-right moderate”, responded to Carlyle in what looks to be a similar “cadre” blog poster marching orders manner, but without ANY reference to Article II as a defense of the Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is implicitly included in “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” meaning.

It is obvious that Unknown #11's and S...st's dance around, no away from Article II is a “cadre” tactic because a defense of Article II does not promote “hope and change” and fulfillment of the socialists' stealth jihad and end run around the U.S. Constitution implicit in BHObama's words, “... we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America”.

First is the Unknown #11 comment, followed later with one paragraph of S...st's response to Carlyle.

- - - - - - - - - -

The revealing words by Unknown are in response to a previous comment of yours.

>> "Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
>> ' "There is much confusion here about set theory." '

Unknown said

>> "Yes, and it's a recent development here on your blog.
>> "Back in the day,
>> "Charles Kerchner wrote over and over that
>> "the set of natural-born citizens
>> "is a subset of citizens.
>> "His underlying legal theory was without merit,
>> "but he knew what a subset is."

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, “back in the day” suggests to me that someone who is aware of what Charles Kerchner wrote about “subset”, not “set theory” but just “subset”, way back whenever and who almost never posts here now on your blog, while the two Obirthers, S...fast and Unknown #11 (see the reference to #11 below), are STILL here on your blog defending the Obama birther narrative “lower hurdle” of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, well, “back in the day” suggests to me that it does not seem sensible that Unknown #11 would STILL be posting here for ONLY educational reasons, so it MUST be for political reasons, either paid or unpaid.

If S...fast and Unknown #11 are still here defending the Obama birther narrative ONLY for educational reasons while Kerchner and others are not, what are S...fast and Unknown expecting to achieve? What can they achieve after all the years of posting their “lower hurdle” Obama birther narrative defense that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient for a person to be eligible to be POTUS, and persisting with their unpersuasive and unconvincing denials that the “higher hurdle” and necessary requirement of ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents ALONE fulfills the original intent of “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” meaning?

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, because Obama-birthers S...fast and Unknown #11 were wielding the “set theory” clubs of “subset” and “proper subset” to misdirect original intent discussion into the “set theory” swamp, I did a word search for “subset” and “proper subset” to see how often the words were used and when they were first used here on your blog.

ajtelles said...

2/3

A “back in the day” pattern “today”...

The 1st reference to “proper subset” that I found was by John Greschak on January 29, 2009 at 9:32 PM.

>> “Mario,
>> “Thank you (and M. Publius Goat) for the kind words.

>> “I have expanded the "Law of Nations" section of my essay "What is a Natural Born Citizen of the United States?" (at http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm).
[…]
4. In discussions concerning citizenship, often a "native" is taken to mean "one born in a particular place". However, this particular sense may be disqualified in the current context:

(1) Vattel states that the individuals he calls "Naturels, ou Indigenes" are those born "dans le pays, de Parens Citoyens", which has been translated as "in the country, of parents who are citizens"; clearly, his "Naturels, ou Indigenes" are a proper subset of those born in the country.
[…]


The 2nd reference to "proper subset" that I found was by Unknown #11 on February 5, 2014 at 3:09 PM.

That is about 5 years and 1 month from John Greschak and Unknown #11 before "proper subset" is mentioned again.

So, Mario, it appears that you were accurate when you wrote
>> ' "There is much confusion here about set theory." '

And it appears that Unknown #11 was also accurate when the 11th “Unknown”, aka Unknown #11, I found with the blogger profile number ending in “12475” wrote
>> "Yes, and it's a recent development here on your blog.”

Yes, it IS a recent development that appears to have been started by Unknown #11.

Unknown #11 and S...fast certainly like the "set theory" language swamp because it distrcted from the solid ground discussion of the original intent of the original birthers, specifically John Jay, and discussion of "natural born Citizen" with the implicit "from birth" meaning ,with the "higher hurdle" of ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, because the Obirthers instead persist in trying to defend the theory of the Obama birther narrative "lower hurdle" and "lower allegiance" associated with ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent being sufficient for a person to be eligible to be POTUS.

I found 65 references to "proper subset" from January 29, 2009 at 9:32 PM to April 25, 2014 at 10:15 AM, with 64 references following the Unknown #11 post of the "proper subset" comment on February 5, 2014 at 3:09 PM.

- - - - - - - - - -

The 1st to 14th references to "subset" were by M Publius Goat [ http://www.obamacitizenshipfacts.org ] on February 4, 2009 at 9:52 PM, February 4, 2009 at 10:21 PM, February 6, 2009 at 8:48 PM, February 10, 2009 at 12:33 PM.

>> "There are five types in the U.S. Constitution. Of course folks of your crowd (the O-Bot supporters) don't care about the Constitution, do you?

>> "To remind you, just in case you never read the Constitution, here are the five types of citizenship mentioned and/or referenced in the Constitution:

>> "1. The Citizen in the general and broadest all encompassing sense mentioned in many places in the Constitution.
>> "2. The grandfathered group, original citizen subset mentioned in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5.
>> "3. The "natural born citizen" subset mentioned in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5.
>> "4. The "born" citizen subset listed in the 14th Amendment.
>> "5. The "naturalized" citizen subset listed in the 14th Amendment.

<< "You only want two types of citizens in order to lump "natural born citizen" and "born citizen" as being one and the same. Nice try. ;-) But even erroneously doing that you missed other types."


_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

ajtelles said...

3/3

A “back in the day” pattern “today”...

The 1st CDR Kerchner reference I found to "subset" was on May 4, 2010 at 9:41 PM.

>> "CDR Kerchner replies:
[...]
>> “Fact: “"natural born Citizens" (NBC) are a subset of "Citizens of the USA".
>> “natural born Citizens" are now the most populous group of "Citizens" in the USA."


Kerchner's earliest post that I found was June 30, 2009 at 2:10 AM, the email to Glenn Beck.
Kerchner's 1st reference that I found to "subset" was May 4, 2010 at 9:41 PM.
Unknown #11's earliest post that I found was January 26, 2013 at 3:43 AM ended with blogger profile numbers “... 12475”.

Also, Mario, for review today, on January 29, 2011 at 6:46 PM, cfkerchner said...

>> "All on this thread should read the below linked Catalog of Evidence paper on why all Americans have very good reasons to be concerned as to whether Obama was actually physically born in Hawaii ... ."
[...]
>> "Read this catalog of evidence prepared by Attorney Mario Apuzzo.

>> http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/05/catalog-of-evidence-concerned-americans.html

>> "CDR Charles Kerchner (Ret)
>> "http://www.protectourliberty.org
>> "January 29, 2011 at 6:46 PM

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, on April 26, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Slartibartfast, aka S...st, responded to Carlyle who wrote,

>> "And before you say the people have already spoken:
>> "Please be aware that The People elected a cartoon, a manufactured personality."

S...st responded with logic obviously based on what, "hope and change" wishes and dreams or marching orders?

>> "We knew more about President Obama that we have most presidential candidates.
>> "After all, he had written an autobiography.
>> "If you would look at his presidency without the lens of your hatred,
>> "you would see that President Obama hasn't governed as
>> "a communist,
>> "a socialist
>> "or even a liberal,
>> "but as a center-right moderate.
>> "His signature legislation (Obamacare)
>> "was essentially the same plan proposed by Bob Dole,
>> "endorsed by the Heritage Foundation and
>> "signed into law by Mitt Romney.
>> "He has also reduced the budget deficit
>> "more than any other president in history (including Clinton).
>> "Not to mention that taxes under Obama
>> "are lower than they have been under any modern president.

>> "These are all objective facts.

>> "Republicans tried to portray President Obama
>> "as "scary" and "unknown" and "other" in 2008
>> "and the American people didn't buy it.
>> "Why you would think that the same tactic
>> "that failed before would work in 2012 (or now) is beyond me,
>> "but we've had 5 years to watch the policies being enacted by the Obama administration
>> "and it's just not consistent with the rhetoric from the right."


- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, I could be wrong, but it looks like what S...st wrote in response to Carlyle is paid or unpaid “cadre” language.

Together with Unknown #11's “back in the day” comment, the Obama-birther “cadre” here on your blog and on other blogs, are still pursuing their agitprop effort to defend the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POTUS because the very BEST that THEIR guy could offer the American electorate was ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Carlyle said...

@slarti

Wow! I would like a jug of that KoolAid you are drinking. Maybe I would feel better.

MichaelN said...

What have you to say about the SCOTUS recognizing TWO types of born citizens of the United States, Kev?

i.e. one type being per the SCOTUS majority in the Minor case, where no constitutional provision, statute, act, rule etc. was relied on and this type of born citizen of the United States, the SCOTUS described as a "natural born citizen" of the United States ......the other type of of born citizen of the United States, where the provisions of the 14th Amendment were relied on and that type was held to be a born "citizen of the United States

And that the SCOTUS holding that the 14th Amendment doesn't say who shall be natural born citizens?


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

I of III

I did not know (did not remember) that John Greschak back on January 29, 2009 said: “Vattel states that the individuals he calls "Naturels, ou Indigenes" are those born "dans le pays, de Parens Citoyens", which has been translated as "in the country, of parents who are citizens"; clearly, his "Naturels, ou Indigenes" are a proper subset of those born in the country.”
You will note that Greschak made the set “those born in the country” which is even a smaller set than “citizens of the United States.” (Those born in the country is a proper subset of citizens of the United States). I believe that the set to be used for best clarity is “citizen of the United States,” which also includes citizen at birth who are born out of the United States, and not only those “born in the country.” Still, at least Greschak knew the difference between a “subset” and a “proper subset” which Slartibartfast, who has a Ph.D in mathematics, does not.

I see that M. Publius Goat used “subset” rather than “proper subset.” I do not know why he did that and you would have to ask him for an explanation. He might have used subset in a layman’s sense and not in a mathematician’s sense. My suspicion is that he probably would have written proper subset rather than subset if he were asked to give the mathematician’s term. Now, if he insists like Ph.D. mathematician Slartibartfast, who defends the Obot’s use of subset rather than proper subset, that natural born citizens is a subset of citizens of the United States rather than a proper subset, that would be a different story. Or maybe he can actually reasonably defend his use of “subset” as Slartibartfast has failed to do and then I stand corrected.

Here is a comment left on my blog by John Manuola which shows that Manuola understands what a natural born citizen is. While Manuola like M. Publius Goat uses “subset” rather than “proper subset,” his explanation shows that he really meant to say proper subset:

John Manuola said...
Kanbun...in all my debates with Obots, they continually assert that there are only two types of citizens...CAB and naturalized. They contend that there is no difference between ANY two persons born as citizens of this country. That's where their logic falls apart, as Mario has explained.

They ASSUME, based upon their interpretations of court cases that there all Citizens at Birth (CAB) are also Natural Born Citizens simply because the court cases point out that all NBC are CAB.

The fallacy in their logic is that one cannot assume the converse to be also true. In other words, just because it is true that all NBC are CAB does not necessarily mean that all CAB are NBC.

NBC is a subset of CAB. Although it is logically POSSIBLE for the converse to also be true (that all CAB are NBC), it is not a conclusion one can come to simply by proving that all NBC are CAB. You would have to also prove the converse to be true by it's own merits. Which, as Mario has shown time and time again, has never been proven.

What OBOTS have erroneously done is taken court cases where the courts have said that all NBC are CAB to mean they are equal. And in one sense that is true. All elements which make up a NBC also make that person a CAB. But not all persons meeting the criteria for being a CAB necessarily also meet the criteria for being in the subset known as NBC.

For the OBOTS to win they have to prove one of two things: 1) that Obama specifically meets the criteria for the subset known as NBC or 2) they would have to prove that NBC and CAB are equal in all aspects. Neither have been done at any time, by anyone...yet.

June 3, 2013 at 4:26 PM
Found at Mario Apuzzo, The Fallacies of Congressional Legislative Attorney Jack Maskell’s Definition of a “Natural Born Citizen,” June 2, 2013.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

Here is what I wrote on October 28, 2012 on this blog:

“Our first ‘citizens’ were ‘citizens of the United States.’ They became such by the Declaration of Independence and by adhering to the American Revolution. So these first ‘citizens’ were naturalized as such by condition. Their children became the first ‘natural born Citizens.’ Their children, grandchildren, etc. (‘Posterity’) (Preamble to the Constitution) are the ‘natural-born citizens.’ This Posterity, as ‘natural born Citizens,’ would not have been considered a subset of ‘citizens of the United States.’ Rather, they were seen as being part of a completely different class. It simply is illogical and unnecessary for the status of ‘natural born Citizen’ to be treated as part of the class of ‘citizens of the United States.’ ‘Natural born Citizens’ had to be born of parents who were ‘citizens of the United States.’ Hence, they would not be a subset of the citizenship class of their parents, but rather would create a totally new and different class. This is what Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 in effect says.”

Mario Apuzzo, “Barack Obama Is Ineligible to be President, For He Is Neither a ‘Natural Born Citizen’ Nor a ‘Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution,’” October 28, 2012.

Unknown is correct in saying that natural born citizens is a “proper subset” of citizens of the United States. I do not know whether she actually meant to write proper subset because she actually knew what it meant or she was just using the qualifier “proper” to make it look even better that a natural born citizen is a subset of citizen of the United States. You will note that other than her little comment, Unknown has not entered the discussion about set theory because she is not able to. You have to understand Unknown’s and the Obot’s motivation for wanting a natural born citizen to be intertwined with a citizen of the United States. By such argument, they can then go to the next step and say that when Congress, the Fourteenth Amendment, and Wong Kim Ark define the “citizens of the United States,” they include in that definition the natural born citizens. Hence, they argue that Congress, Fourteenth Amendment, and Wong Kim Ark, in addition to the common law identified by Minor, also define a natural born citizen. The fallacy here is that a natural born citizen is only a “proper subset” of a citizen of the United States, and that when Congress, the Fourteenth Amendment, and Wong Kim Ark define a citizen of the United States, with natural born citizens being a proper subset of that set, that set also includes citizens who are not natural born citizens. Given the definition those authorities rely upon to define the citizens of the United States, they do not define a natural born citizen, but rather only those citizens who are not natural born citizens. We can easily come to this conclusion because we know what the one and only definition of a natural born citizen is and that definition has never been changed and we also know that neither in the Fourteenth Amendment nor in Acts of Congress did Congress ever use the definition of a natural born citizen to define any citizens it included in the Fourteenth Amendment or Act of Congress. With Wong Kim Ark interpreting the Fourteenth Amendment, which does not include the definition of a natural born citizen, we can also conclude that Wong Kim Ark also did not define a natural born citizen.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

So, it is not correct to insist like Slartibartfast does that a natural born citizen is a subset of citizens of the United States. It is correct to say that natural born citizens is a proper subset of citizens of the United States. Again, all natural born citizens are citizens, but not all citizens are natural born citizens. Hence, the two sets are not equal and therefore one set cannot be the subset of the other, but it can be a proper subset of the other, with natural born citizens being a proper subset of citizens of the United States because the natural born citizens are included in the set called citizens of the United States but not all citizens of the United States are included in the natural born citizens.

Recognizing that natural born citizens is a proper subset rather than a subset of citizens of the United States forces the Obots to concede that there is a difference between a natural born citizen and a citizen of the United States. Having conceded such a difference, they are then forced to provide relevant and controlling historical and legal evidence that supports their thesis that their citizen of the United States at birth is equal to a natural born citizen. They do not have such evidence and therefore they give us the Jack Maskell “consensus” and “weight of authorities” snow job to support their clearly untenable position.

ajtelles said...

1/2

There's gotta be a way...

Mario, I opened up the last two paragraphs from your April 26, 2014 at 6:51 PM post, and my “layman's” comment follows.

>> "So, it is not correct to insist like Slartibartfast does
>> "that a natural born citizen is a subset of citizens of the United States.

>> "It is correct to say that natural born citizens
>> "is a proper subset of citizens of the United States.

>> "Again, all natural born citizens are citizens,
>> "but not all citizens are natural born citizens.

>> "Hence, the two sets are not equal
>> "and therefore one set cannot be the subset of the other,
>> "but it can be a proper subset of the other,
>> "with natural born citizens
>> "being a proper subset of citizens
>> "of the United States
>> "because the natural born citizens
>> "are included in the set called citizens
>> "of the United States
>> "but not all citizens
>> "of the United States
>> "are included in the [set called (?)] natural born citizens.

>> "Recognizing that natural born citizens
>> "is a proper subset
>> "rather than a subset
>> "of citizens
>> "of the United States

>> "forces the Obots to concede that there is a difference between
>> "a natural born citizen
>> "and a citizen
>> "of the United States.

>> "Having conceded such a difference,
>> "they are then forced to provide relevant and controlling historical and legal evidence that supports their thesis that

>> "their citizen
>> "of the United States
>> "at birth
>> "is equal
>> "to a natural born citizen.

>> "They do not have such evidence and therefore they give us the Jack Maskell “consensus” and “weight of authorities” snow job to support their clearly untenable position.”


- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, using as a springboard your articulation of the proper use of “subset” and “proper subset” and John Manuola's NBC and CAB articulation that you quoted, I am trying to clarify in “regular people's” layman's language, without using “subset” and “proper subset” or NBC and CAB examples, the “untenable position” of the Obama-birthers whose every word is intended to defend the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is “sufficient” for a person to be eligible to be POTUS, and that, from the Obirther point of view, ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents is NOT the ONLY original intent meaning of “natural born Citizen” and the implicit “from birth”.

In my layman's language, if the Obama-birthers want to say that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient and was included in the original intent meaning of “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth”, then the Obirthers must ALSO admit that ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, if also “sufficient” from their ONE point of view, then TWO is also to be included as one of two original intent meanings of “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth”.

Here's the essence of the issue I am articulating.

If the Obirthers admit that ONLY TWO U.S. citizens is “included”, using set theory language, in a “subset” or in a “proper subset” with an original intent presupposition, then ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, while “sufficient” by itself from the Obirther's point of view as if TWO was never a consideration, then ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent IS sufficient. However, ONE is NOT sufficient OR necessary if ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents was the ONLY original intent as understood by the delegates at the convention considering the inclusion of “natural born Citizen” into Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

ajtelles said...

2/2

There's gotta be a way...

The “original intent” of the delegates in convention while discussing “natural born Citizen”, obviously meant, by the common sense that is common to every generation, that “original intent” was obviously ONLY TWO, not TWO and ONE, and definitely not ONLY ONE.

By “ONLY” I mean that, while sitting in convention in September of 1787, the delegates, while discussing John Jay's contribution of “natural born Citizen” only 4 years after the signing of the 1783 Treaty of Paris ended the war for independence, they would obviously not be debating the question of which number of parents would make a “natural born Citizen”, one or two. Right? So, just as the delegates, some with 10 or more children, did not need to debate the number of persons that would be needed to reproduce a child, so also the delegates did not need to debate the number of U.S. citizens that would be needed to bestow U.S. citizenship on their child.

Right? Right.

Mario, how can this obvious original intent understanding of the delegates be included in the “natural born Citizen” and “citizen” discussion about “subset” and “proper subset”, and NBC and CAB, in a way that definitively exposes to the light of day that TWO is necessary and ONE is NOT sufficient?

TWO, yes!
ONE, no!

TWO is much better than ONE for national security purposes. John Jay said so, by implication when he underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen.

TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

TWO persons to produce a child, yes.
ONE person, no.
TWO U.S. citizen parents to produce a U.S. citizen child, yes.
ONE U.S. citizen parent, no.

Now, to put the obvious TWO v ONE into layman's language.

There's gotta be a way to clarify the “subset” and “proper subset” language, as well as the NBC and CAB language, to include the common sense obvious that ONLY TWO is necessary and sufficient while ONLY ONE is necessary but NOT sufficient. Maybe then there will be clarity and forward movement in the “subset” and “proper subset” and the NBC and CAB debates, not just here on this blog, but on other blogs.

Maybe it could even bleed into the realm of the BIG Talkers on radio and tv, and into the realm of the BIG Bloggers, Democratic and Republican, who, after 6 years, from 2008 to 2014, are maintaining golden mics and golden keyboards head-stuck-in-the-sand silence.

Sheesh, the BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers remain willing uninformed!!! There's gotta be a way to get them informed and involved in defending the original intent of the U.S. Constitution, specifically Article II Section 1 Clause 5, and how ignoring Article II and NOT becoming informed does NOT help our national security as John Jay envisioned.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Unknown said...

obama is a center right moderate? HAHAHAHA, that must be biggest lie i have ever heard from a obot. He has hung around with scumbags, liars, leftists, muslims, criminals, racists, grifters and opportunists his whole pathetic life and thinks butchering the unborn at any time for any reason is ok.I do not think a moderate would be in love with muslim brotherhood terrorists or consent to having a extra 6T added to our national debt with much of it wasted or skimmed by barry capone and dirty harry. 6T more in the hole is austerity to barry, what a joke. larry sinclair and mia pope seem a lot more credible than a proven liar like barry the hustler. Growing up in hawaii and muslim indonesia i do not think he spent much time watching John Wayne movies, celebrating the 4th, Christmas and listening to God Bless America," baseball, hot dogs, apple pie and chevrolet" like many real natural born citizens. I do not think he even likes the US, our Flag or the Founders. My wife is a citizen of the US from the philippines and even though she appreciates being here her heart will always be in phils. George Washington means nothing to her or obama but GW means a lot to me probably because i was born and raised in US and my parents were americans. I am not any different from a mexican, canadian or russian who wants the best for their country

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

Well said Leo,

>> "obama is a center right moderate?
>> "HAHAHAHA,... ."



Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

The Obots are stuck arguing a position that has no basis in our Constitutional history. During the Founding and up to the passage of the Cable Act of 1922, there was no such thing as husbands and wives with different citizenships. Husband and wives were either both U.S. citizens or both aliens. So, the Obots have to say that to be a natural born citizen by birth in the country, the child has to be born to two U.S. citizens or to no U.S. citizen parents. They will not admit to requiring birth in the country to two U.S. citizen parents. Hence, given the rule of unity of the citizenship of the husband and wife, they are left with only arguing that no U.S. citizen parents is sufficient to be a natural born citizen by birth in the country.

Such a position is absurd given the historical and legal evidence. There is simply no way that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers allowed any minor child to become a U.S. citizen unless his or her parents were U.S. citizens first. Indeed, they were believers and followers of “partus sequitur patrem” (children follow the condition of their parents). They used this maxim to determine what minors were to be Americans during the Revolution; if the parents elected to be Americans, that made their minor children Americans, too. It was this rule which avoided dual nationality and allegiance in which they did not believe. They continued this rule after the Revolution and it was respected until Wong Kim Ark was decided in 1898, which even acknowledged that when positive or municipal law is allowed to determine citizenship, there will inevitably arise cases of dual and conflicting allegiances. The early Naturalization Acts bears this out, for those acts treated children born in the United States to alien parents as aliens and those born to U.S. citizen parents out of the county as citizens like their parents.

So, the Obot position that for those born in the country, birth to one or no U.S. citizen parents is sufficient to make a natural born citizen flies in the face of the Founders’, Framers’, and Ratifiers’ requirement that foreign and monarchical influence be kept out of the offices of President and Commander in Chief of the Military, does not comport with the historical and legal evidence, makes no sense, and is therefore to be rejected.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "There is simply no way that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers allowed any minor child to become a U.S. citizen unless his or her parents were U.S. citizens first."

That statement lacks all context. In one it is true, in another it is false. If you care to know the truth of the matter then you need to read my latest exposition on the matter:
"Why Common Law Citizens Are Barred from being President"

It explains in great length the difference between State citizenship and national citizenship. The States continued (perhaps universally) allowing common law State membership for immigrants' children, while the national government refused to recognized dual citizenship and conflicting allegiances.

That's why there were doubts. The two different authorities had different practices. The States had allowance for common law citizenship by statute or constitutional provision, while the federal gov. only had policy, -no law.
It was eventually settled by the Wong opinion; common law citizenship became the law of the land. The 14th Amendment's language described both natural citizens (nearly all of them) and common law citizens (definitely all of them.
If one can't get the simple historical facts of citizenship right, they aren't likely to understand the truth about what a natural born citizen is.

But I've explained it all in incontestable clarity, so one should read and learn; -or don't read and don't learn. It all depends on whether or not one is actually seeking the truth and not just confirmation of their own doctrine.
PS. I see neither side cares to comment on the Tucker quote about when the President is not native born. No wonder, -it destroys both of your fantasies.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/04/26/why-common-law-citizens-are-barred-from-being-president/

ajtelles said...

Dittos “rule of unity”...

Mario, in your phrase on April 27, 2014 at 1:28 AM , “the rule of unity of the citizenship of the husband and wife”, is contained the essence of what I have been articulating, TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

As you wrote,
>> “... there was no such thing as husbands and wives with different citizenships.
>> “Husband and wives were either both U.S. citizens or both aliens.”


BOTH parents are “either … or” BEFORE the child was clled a U.S. citizen or an alien citizen. Either way, in the “rule of unity”, TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

In the “rule of unity” phrase “TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE”, the citizenship status of the child was determined by the citizenship status of BOTH parents. If the U.S. citizen husband married a foreign citizen wife, the new wife was considered to also be a U.S. citizen because she was naturalized by marriage to a U.S. citizen, and the child was also a U.S. citizen. If the foreign citizen husband married a U.S. citizen wife, both were considered to be foreign citizens, and their child was also considered to be a foreign citizen and not a U.S. “natural born Citizen” with the “from birth” presupposition. Either way, TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE.

So, putting the “rule of unity” phrase “TWO is the ONLY way to produce ONE” together with John Jay underling “born” in “natural born Citizen”, and the Convention delegate Framers not needing to debate how many persons were needed to produce a child, and concomitantly not needing to debate how many U.S. citizen parents were needed to produce a U.S. citizen child who was ALSO a “natural born Citizen” with POTUS eligibility, we have the essence of the common sense original intent understanding of the original birthers, specifically the Convention's Framers, that “natural born Citizen”, with the implicit “from birth” presupposition, meant that ONLY TWO was the ONLY way to produce ONE.

The citizenship of the husband determined the citizenship of the wife. The citizenship of both parents determined the citizenship of the child. TWO parents produced ONE child. In Article II, the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” was a codification of the common sense natural law reality together with positive law reality that ONLY TWO U.S. citizens was the ONLY way to produce ONE U.S. citizen. This means that, after ratification and in Article II context, ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, citizens by birth or by naturalization BEFORE the birth of their child, could bestow U.S. citizen status on the child who was recognized as an Article II Section 1 Clause 5 “natural born Citizen” with John Jay's implicit “from birth” presupposition.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, if only the BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers would talk and write about the original intent of the original birthers who were the Convention's original Framers who adopted the words “natural born Citizen” as understood by John Jay, maybe they and their audiences could become informed enough to stand up and articulate a defense against the Obama-birther defenders of the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POTUS, contrary to John Jay's original intent in underlining the word “born” in “natural born Citizen”.

For those BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers who shy away from talking and writing about the “birth certificate” because they do not want to be labeled as a “birther” and who can not withstand the oh so awful shunning of their peers, well then, do NOT talk about the “birth certificate” and at least, talk about the original intent of the U.S. Constitution and Article II Section 1 Clause 5 and what “natural born Citizen” means to YOU.

Sheesh, BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers, WAKE UP! Defend and emphasize the original intent of Article II and you will put the fraudulent “birth certificate” in it's proper context, it takes TWO to produce ONE.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Carlyle said...

@ leo derosia and ajtelles

Yeah, anybody who can say such howlers with a straight face is certainly not worthy of respect nor likely to be right in anything else they say.

And, interestingly enough, that is not the only howler in said essay - and not even the worst!!

It is fun to see OBOTs out themselves and shoot themselves in the foot. And weirdly enough, I was going after a different OBOT - who has yet to respond - and this other one just shows up and commits intellectual suicide. SPLAT!

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "there was no such thing as husbands and wives with different citizenships.
Husband and wives were either both U.S. citizens or both aliens.”

Very good. Now you are half way there. The other half is the rest of the family, which the wife/mother, and father produce.

Just as it was impossible for an American husband to have a foreign wife, so it was also impossible for American parents to have foreign children. ALL WERE ALIKE, AMERICANS.

Whatever the father was, so were the wife & children. They comprised A SINGLE UNIT. A FAMILY UNIT, with the father as the head.

The family unit was the building block of society. There was no split, divided, divergent political natures within the fundamental unit. They were all of a uniform nature, membership, citizenship if they were subject to American jurisdiction.

But that was NOT State policy nor law since common law children were Americans but their fathers were foreigners. But at the national level it was universally true, -not by law but by policy.

No such law could be passed because it would conflict with State laws allowing jus soli common law citizenship. It would have been a war of jurisdictions and Congress had no authority over the States to dictate to them a prohibition against common law citizenship.

All it could do was dictate a uniform rule for men who sought naturalization, -not for children of men who weren't naturalized.

Such children, by the common law and then the 14th Amendment, were NOT naturalized at birth because that is just an invented fictional concept (one I've also used hundreds of times) but now I'm aware of the truth.

THEY WERE NOT NATURALIZED CITIZENS NOR NATURAL BORN CITIZENS. They were Calvin-case citizens. -Born as subjects/born as citizens, but born of aliens. A new and different sort of citizen in the early 1600s.

& btw, American children were automatically born as Americans just like their foreign mother automatically became an American by marriage vow.
Anyone bound to an American man/father by vow or blood was an American just like him, and natural born ones at that, especially if by blood.

Obama is not such a natural citizen regardless of birth place, but John McCain is, even if born of civilians.
No law makes that true nor can any make it false. Its citizenship by descent, as in "the right of descent..." Nat. Acts.
a.nash

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

You continue with your personal opinion without providing any relevant historical or legal source to support it. Your view that place of birth is not relevant to be a natural born citizen is contrary to both American and English common law.

As the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained, under American common law a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth (paraphrasing Vattel, Section 212 of The Law of Nations, 1758 and 1797). Clearly, Vattel and the Court required birth in the country to make a natural born citizen. The Court added that under that same common law all the rest of the people, which necessarily included children born in the country to alien parents and children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen or alien parents) were “aliens or foreigner” who could become citizens of the Untied States under naturalization Acts of Congress or treaties. This common law rule was accepted by early Congress when it passed the early naturalization acts of Congress (1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855) which naturalized not only qualifying children born in the United States to alien parents, but also qualifying children born out of United States territory and jurisdiction to U.S. citizen or alien parents and qualifying adults born out of the United States to alien parents.

Horace Binney and Wong Kim Ark also explained that under the old English common law a child needed to be born in the country to be a subject/citizen at birth without the aid of any legislation or treaty. Indeed, under the English common law, even though it treated friendly aliens present in the King’s dominion as subjects, the right to subjectship did not descend from parents, but rather depended upon birth in the country. In fact, mere birth in the King’s dominion was enough to naturalize at birth a child who was born in the King’s dominion to alien parents. See Calvin’s Case (1608) (Lord Coke and the English court naturalized at birth Calvin, who was born in Scotland, part of the English and Scottish King’s dominion, to Scottish alien parents). On the other hand, if a child was not born in the King’s dominion, that child needed naturalization to be a subject which English statutes called a “natural-born subject” in the case when that foreign-born child was born to subject parents or father (depending on the applicable statute).

You also mistakenly believe that the states could continue to make “citizens of the United States” after Congress entered and preempted the naturalization field in 1790. They simply could not, for now Congress took full control of the field of naturalization for purposes of making national citizens. The Constitution gave to Congress the exclusive power to naturalized persons as citizens of the United States. So, with citizen of the United States being a national citizenship status, states no longer had any role in defining a citizen of the United States after the passage of the Naturalization Act of 1790, let alone defining a natural born citizen. This is where Slartibartfast also goes wrong when he puts forth citizenship under the laws of Virginia (Jefferson’s citizenship laws which in any event he misunderstands) and New York (the Lynch decision which was later overruled by the New York legislature) as somehow controlling what was a natural born citizen or even a citizen of the United States.

So, you are wrong about the place of birth not being relevant in the formula for defining a natural born citizen. And you are wrong that the states continued to have a hand in producing citizens of the United States after passage of the Naturalization Act of 1790. The historical and legal evidence demonstrates that there has only been one and only one constitutionally controlling national definition of a natural born citizen and that is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. So, Mr. Nash, it is time to try again.

ajtelles said...

Soil of birth life and residence eligibility...

You said to h2ooflife,

>> "Your view that place of birth
>> "is not relevant to be a natural born citizen
>> "is contrary to both American and English common law."


- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, to put your historical common law common sense response to h2ooflife into other historical and necessarily implicit original intent words, in Article II Section 1 Clause 5, the birth soil is implicit in the word "born" because the birth has to take place on soil somewhere. Right? Birth soil MUST obviously be the original intent precedence of the 14 year residency requirement soil. Right? So, has h2ooflife ever articulated on your blog why he accepts 14 residence on U.S. soil but rejects that the birth on that same U.S. soil MUST precede the 14 year residence on that same U.S. soil?

To reject U.S. birth soil while accepting 14 year residence on U.S. soil is, well, not thoughtful.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Unioon”

Unknown said...

I think the Founders wanted future Presidents to be born in US and raised by patriotic american citizens with high morals. They probably thought that such a person would be more inclined to be loyal to the US, We the People and hopefully love our country. We have certainly seen the damage done by barry and President Jarrett, neither of whom is a natural born citizen

Robert said...

Soil?
Who among us does not recognize the place of his birth and hold it above other places at least in some small manner; and, usually, to a great degree?

Of course, the longer we remain connected to our place of birth, the more we become attached to it whether positively or negatively. However, it is exceedingly rare to find anyone who has absolutely no feelings at all towards his birth place.

Haven’t we heard about nationalism and civic pride? Don’t we root for the home team? Why are the names of so many people derived from the place of their birth? And why are places named after people?

How many places in can we count around the world that are recognized because someone was born there? Why was there so much celebration in Kenya just because Obama was born there, even though he insulted them when he quit acknowledging them and started claiming Hawaii - a place that has never done anything to recognize any point in their geography as being his place of birth?

Why have Spain and Portugal argued over the birthplace of Christopher Columbus? Is either of the two Hawaiian hospitals in which Obama and his family claimed he was born fighting over establishing themselves as his place of birth? Why not? Is anyone in Hawaii objecting to the recognitions that have been established in Kogelo, Mombassa, Kenya? Why not?

People and places are undoubtedly connected in a very fundamental way. One must have some serious blinders on to ignore the relevance and importance of one's place of birth.

The founders recognized this in the natural born citizen requirement and the residency requirements (not only for POTUS). They also recognized when they prescribed that the President and Vice President may not come from the same state.

The legally minded may refer to Vatel and Minor and whatever other laws they may find, but all it really takes is observing human nature (and that of any other territorial creature) and a little common sense.

A Natural Born Citizen is one born in the country to two citizen parents. “Parentage” and “Soil”.

Anonymous said...

Mario said correctly: "Your view that place of birth is not relevant to be a natural born citizen is contrary to both American and English common law."

EXACTLY. IT AGREES WITH NO COMMON LAW. That's why it is not called common law. It is Natural Law, -the law of blood, of natural inheritance, of natural descent.
But common law, whether obot or nativist, requires native birth.

Mario, to rephrase correctly: "As the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained, under natural law a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth was a natural born citizen."

That version is true. Your deliberate perversion of it by reversing the statement is false because it is not EXCLUSIVE. It excluded nothing, -namely foreign-born natural citizens who were citizens by the same principle, patrilineal descent.

You went off the rails with: "The Court added that under that same common law all the rest of the people,..."IN THE UNITED STATE!!! FOREIGN-BORN AMERICANS NOT INCLUDED in the statement.

Again false: "This common law rule was accepted by early Congress when it passed the early naturalization acts of Congress..."

That's 100% incorrect. Naturalization did not exist in the common law of England. The State republics allowed immigrant children to be deemed as citizens by statute or constitutional provision. The naturalization act was totally irrelevant.

They were State citizens by law, codified common law. They needed no naturalization, nor did their Europe-born brethren. Oh hell, I'll just post a big slug of what I penned today so I'm not reinventing the wheel.

Slartibartfast said...

Carlyle,

You may consider them howlers (unsurprising since your delusions require you to believe the right-wing propaganda so you can view President Obama as the evil head of a vast conspiracy that has thwarted you at every step rather than facing your own incompetence and misunderstanding), but I can back up everything I said with facts while all you can do is cling to your Alinsky rules and attempt to ridicule me.

Briefly, You cannot point to any policy or action of the Obama administration that is communist, socialist, or even very liberal in nature. In fact, pretty much all of President Obama's positions have been to the right of Nixon.

Obamacare is essentially the same proposal as Bob Dole's alternative to HillaryCare---which included an individual mandate and was endorsed by the Heritage Foundation. The law that Mitt Romney signed in Massachusetts was based on Dole's plan as well. The liberal plan would have been some form of single payer---i.e. Medicare for all (or the VA for all would be even better).

I think that even birthers would agree that deficits are caused by increases in spending and decreases in revenue. President Bush inherited a budget that was in surplus, so what are the changes in spending and revenue since then that has led to our current deficit? The Bush tax cuts, Medicare part D, the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, the Great Recession, TARP, and the Stimulus. The Stimulus is the only one of these begun under the Obama Administration (and one of the smallest in terms of impact on the deficit), and it was small, historically speaking (compared to government action in earlier downturns), not to mention poorly targeted (too many tax breaks---the least stimulative form of spending, netting $1.03 for every dollar spent, as opposed to, say, food stamps, which generate $1.75 of economic activity per dollar spent).

There is plenty of stuff to complain about regarding the Obama administration, but the far right (and the birthers, in particular) choose to rail against straw men rather than accept the facts and address their arguments to the actions of their opponents.

Which is just another example of the kind of fuzzy thinking you display with regards to the eligibility issue. Some examples:

The key to Mario's argument is a passage from an English translation of Vattel's Law of Nations written a decade after the Constitution. The Founders would have read this work in the original French, yet Mario has never even acknowledged the claim that the version he uses is a mistranslation, which, if corrected, would make President Obama an indegene, according to Vattel. (If you are curious, the French term parens means "blood relatives" rather than "parents", so a single citizen parent would suffice.)

Another common birther assumption is that their "two citizen parent" theory of eligibility is well-known and was what "everyone" learned in school. Unfortunately, the facts tell a different story. From James Madison's claim that knowing a person's place of birth was sufficient to make them a US citizen to the Virginia citizenship law written by Thomas Jefferson to these words of the court in Lynch v. Clark:

"Suppose a person should be elected president who was native born, but of alien parents; could there be any reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the Constitution? I think not. The position would be decisive in his favor, that by the rule of the common law, in force when the Constitution was adopted, he is a citizen."

and

"Upon principle, therefore, I can entertain no doubt, but that by the law of the United States, every person born within the dominions and allegiance of the United States, whatever the situation of his parents, is a natural born citizen. It is surprising that there has been no judicial decision upon this question"

cont...

Slartibartfast said...

...cont

This all speaks to the understanding that the US followed jus soli, first and foremost and the 14th Amendment merely codified that understanding rather than changing the law. Whatever the common understanding of "natural born citizen" and the eligibility requirement, we would expect to find that meaning defined in textbooks. While anti-birthers have found dozens of texts which describe native-born citizens as being eligible for the presidency, birthers have yet to find a single textbook at any level describing the need for two citizen parents and birth on the soil.

While this doesn't rule out all these sources being wrong (although that is very unlikely), it cripples the birther argument in any case. One of the key birther tenets is that President Obama committed a fraud against the American public, but since there is no evidence that President Obama learned that he was ineligible anywhere between kindergarden and Harvard Law (and plenty of places where he might have learned that he was eligible), a necessary element of fraud. So get the SCOTUS to rule in favor of your Minor v. Happersett "definition" if you can---it would still leave Obama as president and innocent of any wrongdoing.

The only remaining possibility of fraud would occur if he wasn't born in Hawai'i---and knew this to be the case---which runs smack into the full faith and credit of the State of Hawai'i, not to mention a complete lack of probative evidence.

Face it, even if your wildest dreams came true and the SCOTUS accepted Mario's case in Vermont (even though Mario failed to cite a Constitutional defect in the decision of the Vermont court*) and ruled that "natural born citizen" was defined as "born in the country to citizen parents", President Obama would remain in office and it would be impossible to prosecute him for fraud.

* it is almost like Mario doesn't understand that the SCOTUS doesn't have jurisdiction over cases which don't raise a Constitutional issue.

Guys, you can call me a traitor all you want---I understand that if President Obama isn't evil incarnate then your entire worldview collapses---but if I'm so wrong, why do Mario and Art keep misrepresenting my position to make it easier to attack? Why do they ignore most of my criticism and rebut the rest with fallacies? Why can't any of you find a record of a native-born person being naturalized? Or show me the eligibility of a single presidential candidate being questioned on the basis of their parents' citizenship before 2008?

Mario,

I have never once suggested that natural born citizens were not a proper subset of citizens. I have clearly and consistently maintained that there are naturalized citizens and natural born citizens. These sets are non-empty and disjoint and their union is the set of all citizens. You have continually obfuscated rather than clearly explaining how your view differs and providing authority to support your assertion. As someone who does not derive their citizenship by statute, President Obama cannot be naturalized and hence must be natural born.

Anonymous said...

Aug. 27, "Three Ways to Citizenship & Three Views of “Natural Born”

Only a natural born citizen is eligible to be President. How does one become a natural born citizen? The answer is found by understanding how one becomes a citizen.

There are only three ways to become a citizen. 1. by blood 2. by oath 3. by native-birth.
This is generally true throughout the entire world.

Citizenship By Blood can have three sources. 1. born of citizen parents.

2. born of a single citizen parent but deemed to be a citizen by permission of a statute if the parent was an American mother. If born of an American father then one is deemed to be a citizen by right of descent.

The right of nationality by descent only descends via the father. That is ancient law and tradition thousands of years old, while nationality being allowed through the mother is less than a century old.

3. Born of naturalized citizen parents. The nationality of their children is deemed to be that of the parents by their blood relationship to them. They are not naturalized citizens but are derivative citizens since their citizenship is derived by blood relationship to newly naturalized parents.

Citizenship By Oath is citizenship by natural-ization. By swearing a solemn oath of Allegiance (to the Constitution) & Renunciation (of all foreign loyalty and obedience) one is deemed to have shed their old national character and to have been transformed into a new natural American citizen (the butterfly being the metaphorical model; -from a worm of a royal subject of a foreign monarch to a free-flying liberated natural American citizen).

Citizenship by Native-Birth is common law citizenship. It was the rule in all of the colonies that anyone born of a father within and subject to the King’s authority (which excluded the French & Indians and foreign Ambassadors) were deemed to be his subjects. That included not only children of his subjects but children of foreigners (immigrants) as well.

That nationality policy (as old as the colonies) continued in a number of the newly established republics in America, -perhaps even all of them. Such children were known as “sons of the soil” because they were not sons by blood, -the blood of citizen fathers.

Their citizenship was State citizenship first and foremost but even though it was by traditional British common law and not natural descent it was not openly rejected by the executive branch of the federal government, -but it was not embraced either.

Its focus was not on inter-state citizenship recognition but on the international arena and how to follow a nationality policy in a highly competitive world with strong feelings about nationality.

That was the upshot of the British policy and doctrine that one was a subject of the king for life...

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/04/27/three-ways-to-citizenship-three-views-of-natural-born/

Anonymous said...

Domestically, there was never a circumstance that forced a court to issue a legal ruling as to whether or not such common law citizens, born of aliens, were eligible to be President by reason of being considered to be "natural born citizens", but aside from that one unsettled issue, they were in every respect equal to children of Americans...

But the State Department drew a line regarding such children if their circumstance did not tend toward the raising of an American.

If an immigrant couple had a child in America but shortly thereafter moved back to their European homeland, and that child at adulthood sought to acquire an American passport or travel papers under the assertion of being an American, that child would be denied acknowledgement of citizenship and given nothing.

It would have been viewed as a foreigner, -because it in fact was. Mere native-birth alone was insufficient because the parents demonstrated that they were not members of American society by their abandonment of it. Thus they were not subject to American authority, and their child was not deemed to be either. Without that connection to America and the U.S. government, citizenship was not ascribed based solely on native-birth, --until the Wong holding .

In 1898, the U.S. Supreme Court held in U.S. v Wong Kim Ark that such a child, and all children of immigrants (even impermanent immigrants) were U.S. citizens at birth. Thus the federal policy (as old as the nation) was overthrown and replaced with the reinterpretation of the meaning of the 14th Amendment nationality clause, thereby making common law citizenship not only the law of the States but from then on also the law of the nation.

Thereafter, at the national level, you had two types of born citizens instead of just the previous one. Along with children born of citizens you then had children born of immigrant foreigners who were deemed to be citizens from birth.

But they were not citizens by birth since they were not citizens by blood, having no inherent right of national inclusion by right of descent.

Anonymous said...

By what means did common law citizens come to be recognized as natural born citizens and thus eligible to be President?

Answer: by no means, no logic, no facts, no history, no law, no court opinion, and no constitutional amendment. They remain common law, constitutional, legally recognized, born citizens, -but the word "natural" has no connection to them.

The word cannot simply and unjustifiably be dismissed as if it has no meaning and no purpose regarding citizenship and presidential eligibility, -as if the authors of the Constitution after considering every word and implication, choose to insert a totally meaningless, irrelevant, and superfluous word for no discernible reason whatsoever.

Unless they did so anyway, it must mean what it means as recognized by its English language meaning, which is: something (a citizen) by nature; born as something, -not born with something; -innately something and unavoidably so.

Common law citizens are not innately Americans because they are not born unavoidably American. All the mother-to-be has to do is step over the border and her child, -then born beyond the U.S. borderline, is immediately beyond any possibility of being born an American.

But if the father & mother are Americans, then their child will automatically be so also, regardless of birth location.

It seems pretty cut-&-dried, but there is a huge complication thrown into the mix by men with a nativist doctrine of nationality who claim that one must fulfill not just the minimum requirements of common law citizenship but go beyond them by being born of American parents.

So a natural born citizen is defined by them as not only one born in America (native-born) but also born of American citizens (citizen born).

The error of that is that birth location is unrelated to belonging, -to the principle of inclusion or membership. That is the principle that binds all natural groups together, -from the family group to the national group. Natural Membership is by blood only. Everyone with a family knows that.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/wp-admin/post.php?post=6070&action=edit

Slartibartfast said...

Leo,

If they had wanted that, they should have said so. Instead, they used a term that had been synonymous with "born a citizen" for two centuries. President Obama was born a citizen and is thus natural born while Valerie Jarrett doesn't need to be. When are you planning on giving this up and starting to work on reasons Hillary Clinton can't be president? Or are you going to get caught flat-footed again when she wins the election?

Anonymous said...

The location of the house or hospital you were born in is irrelevant to and unrelated to both what family you naturally belong to as well as what country.

Regardless, you belong to your parents and you are an extension and perpetuation of them by being born into and as a member of their personal family and national family. The same principle is involved in both, and that's why the word "natural" applies to both.

Those three understandings of citizenship are akin to a panoramic photograph composed of three separate but overlapping photos.

The photo on the left is akin to the elements of alien parents (on the left side) and native-birth on the right side (the obot frame).

The center photo is composed of native-birth over-lapping on the left with citizen parents on the right (the nativist frame).

The right photo is composed of citizen parents on the left and an unbounded background to the far horizon on the right (the natural law frame).

Those are the only views of what a natural born citizen might be. Only one is correct. Two cannot be correct because its meaning is determined by a natural principle and not an arbitrary assignment of convenience or preference.

Its meaning is not determined by a fictional term of legal artifice which can mean whatever one can semi-logically justify. It is determined by the meaning of common English words, -words that can be -and were, focused on individually, and not all together as a monolithic unitary term.

But two of the three views assert that that is false. That natural born citizen is equivalent to naturalborncitizen, -a term for which they each have an explanation, albeit one in semi-opposition to its opposing counter view.

Both agree that those words must be defined by their dogma alone, with one side insisting that the parents must be Americans and the birth must be in America, while the other insists that it doesn't matter; only that their child is a citizen from birth, regardless of how or where that citizenship was obtained, whether from two American parents, or only one (at home or abroad) or none (with native-birth required). That's a hodge-podge of circumstances connected only by citizenship results.

Both have inherent errors. One side insists...

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/04/27/three-ways-to-citizenship-three-views-of-natural-born/

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "You also mistakenly believe that the states could continue to make “citizens of the United States” after Congress entered and preempted the naturalization field in 1790."

I can't fix your ignorance about the history of naturalization, but I'd advise you to tutor yourself well by researching a little, (Wikipedia is good) on its history before you repeat that ignorant statement. You simply do not know what you are talking about. It took the feds over half a century before usurping the States unalienable right to control their own immigration & naturalization.

I've written a ton on the subject in my latest expositions. The pretext that the treasonous justices used to justify it was the almighty Commerce Clause; foreigners, humans, were lumped in as items of international trade.

That was overthrown in a lawsuit, but by then there were no State government agencies to handle it so volunteers had to take over the job.

"-now Congress took full control of the field of naturalization for purposes of making national citizens."

When will it penetrate your skull that Congress only had authority to make a uniform rule, -as clearly stated in the 1795 Act preamble?

Where was Congress declared God of nationality in the Constitution??? No where.
Congress was totally incapable of making any sort of citizen, [but those born on federal land would be deemed to be national and not State citizens].

All of those born in the sovereign State republics were their citizens and Congress had no say in the matter because it could not preempt the common law nor State law. No authority. 9th & 10th Amendments. By common law, naturalization was unrelated to the native-born.

"The Constitution gave to Congress the exclusive power to naturalized persons as citizens of the United States."

That's the exact opposite of the truth. Any 4th grader can read the Constitution and conclude that's totally without basis. "exclusive"?? No, "power"?? No. All naturalization before federal courts were organized was purely by State courts of record as stated in the 1st Act, making State & national citizens, but national citizenship was meaningless unless leaving the country.
Then one left as an American national, not an American citizen since citizenship was domestically rooted. Foreign governments didn't care about citizenship status, only nationality. They aren't the same.

ajtelles said...

Read it again – some things never change...

Mario, what you wrote December 16, 2010 reads like you could have written it today.
>> http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/12/would-founders-and-framers-have-allowed.html

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "Thursday, December 16, 2010

>> "Would the Founders and Framers Have Allowed the Son of a British “Natural Born Subject” Father and U.S. Citizen Mother To Be President and Commander in Chief of the United States in 2009?

>> "Sometimes it helps to break down a problem into its simple form in order to understand it better. Consider this.

>> “The colonial history of Kenya dates from the Berlin Conference of 1885, when the European powers first partitioned east Africa into spheres of influence. In 1895, the British Government established the East African Protectorate and, soon after, opened the fertile highlands to white settlers. In 1920, Kenya officially became a British colony. From October 1952 to December 1959, Kenya was under a state of emergency arising from the Mau Mau rebellion against British colonial rule. Kenya became independent on December 12, 1963, and the next year joined the Commonwealth.” http://www.uiowa.edu/~africart/toc/countries/Kenya.html.


>> "Now let us apply this historical background to a factual scenario. We are in the time period after the Constitution is adopted in 1787. A man is born in a British colony as a British "natural born subject." He comes to America just to study, with the intent to return to that British colony upon completion of his studies. While in America, he impregnates an American citizen. The two then marry and have a child who, let us assume for sake of argument, is born in one of the United States in 1961. The British man then finishes his studies and goes back to his native land, leaving both his wife and son in America. The wife eventually divorces this man.


>> "Query:

>> "Would the Founders and Framers,
>> "who wanted to assure the preservation of the new constitutional republic
>> "which they built with blood, sweat, and tears shed in a war with Great Britain,
>> "and who wrote in the Constitution
>> "that after its adoption
>> "only a “natural born Citizen”
>> "is eligible to be President,
>> "have allowed the child of that British "natural born subject" father and American citizen mother
>> "to be eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military in 2009? "


>> “Posted by Mario Apuzzo, Esq. at 12:13 PM

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, some things never change. Your original intent question was a winner in 2010 and is still a winner today in 2014. The original intent debate was won then, which is obvious because the Obama-birthers NEVER debate the obvious rationality. Eventually that original intent question, or one similar to it with a similar “lower hurdle” usurper scenario, will win the debate in the BIG Talker and BIG Blogger public square too, and eventually in a court where a majority of the court will side with the original intent of the original authors of Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

Obama-birthers NEVER adduce “original intent” arguments as they persist in trying to defend the indefensible, the theory of the Obama birthe narrative of the eligibility "lower hurdle" that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to make a person eligible to be POTUS, and denying the eligibility “higher hurdle” that ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents is the original intent of the original Founders and Framers in September 17, 1787, including John Jay who underlined “born” in “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” presupposition.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Stranger said...

Slarti again pretended:
"As someone who does not derive their citizenship by statute, President Obama cannot be naturalized and hence must be natural born."

Dear Slarti; are you stupid? It is a blatant falsehood that only naturalized and natural born citizenship exists.

You claim Obama isn't a citizen by statute, soooo that means the Wong opinion of the 14th Amendment isn't a statute? I agree, it is now viewed as constitutional law.

The opinion held that the 14th meant what the common law determined and that was true, but only to an extent.

Where was the limit and gray area beyond it? It was in the births of children covered by the opinion of the Attorney General John Griggs who ruled that ALL native-born children of aliens were Americans except those of ambassadors.

Did the high court's opinion invite such a massive expansion beyond what had been federal policy for over a century? Certainly not.
But Griggs saw an opening and drove a Mac Truck through it.

His new view, adopted by the State Dept and naturalization bureau was to embrace the full bastardization of the common law rule in Britain, which claimed that even the most temporary presence in Britain was sufficient to produce a "natural born subject" because of the invented "temporary allegiance" imposed by a mother's mere presence in Britain.

That was a totally corrupt philosophical assertion since guests and visitor are in the same category as ambassadors; subject fully to their homeland & government, -not the land of their visit.

Your claim is that Griggs legitimately adopted that bastardized position for the entire federal government. My challenge is for you to prove that he did so legitimately.

Lay out the intellectual justification based on natural principles and natural rights. You can't because there aren't any. It was a philosophical fraud, -a scam, as are you.

Foreign guests and children born to them while in the U.S. are NOT SUBJECT to national governments as citizens & immigrants are.
They cannot be drafted because they are not members of the society. Guests have no membership obligations, nor do their issue.

So Obama, by the Wong opinion is not a U.S. citizen but is only considered one by federal policy put in place by Griggs, but it is not law.
It can be changed with an executive order.
He is only a Griggs citizen, not a Wong citizen, (which was limited to immigrants).
How can a citizen by policy be a natural born citizen?
a.nash

Unknown said...

Its natural born citizen slart. Chief Justice Waite described one in minor

ajtelles said...

Read it again #2...

Mario, in addition to your December 16, 2010 “scenario” and query that I adduced here on April 28, 2014 at 9:35 AM, this comment by Ted on December 16, 2010 at 1:24 PM is so right on, it also needs to be repeated.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "181 comments:
>> "Ted said...

>> "Of course the Founders and Framers would not have allowed that, as confirmed under Const. Art. 2 Sec. 1.

>> "THAT IS PRECISELY WHY I'VE ASKED THE QUESTION IN YOUR LAST THREAD,
>> "maybe Lt.Col. Lakin was duped by Team Obama
>> "to argue solely on the red herring
>> "of the birth certificate
>> "so the media can continue its diversion
>> "from Obama's real legal impediment
>> "(his dad was British)
>> "--and THAT IS the grand conspiracy!

>> "(what really puzzles me is why the
>> "_Rush Limbaugh's,
>> "_Mark Levin's,
>> "_Glen Beck's,
>> "_Laura Ingraham's,
>> "_Michael Savage's

>> "and VIRTUALLY all the rest of Conservative media make the same diversion???
>> "-- they certainly know the real issue of Const Art. 2 Sec. 1
>> "-- as you succinctly post"


- - - - - - - - - -

The only thing I disagree with is the last sentence, "-- they certainly know the real issue of Const Art. 2 Sec. 1."

The BIG Talkers listed by Ted (and BIG Bloggers not listed) do NOT "know" the original intent of Article II Section 1 Clause 5, because they were spooked into ignoring studying the original intent of Article II by the possibility of being labeled as "racist birthers" by the Obama-birthers, the O-birthers, the Obots.

The BIG Talkers did not "know" in 2009 and they STILL do not "know" in 2014 because they obviously have decided to remain willingly uninformed, aka ignorant of the original intent of the original birthers who were the Framers of the original words in Article II, specifically John Jay who underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit "from birth" presupposition for national security reasons.

Mario, your original intent query with the short history and scenario is a winner argument, and it should be emphasized in some manner in every response to the Obirthers who do not want to debate “original intent”, so they hover around the indefensible, the theory that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS, and they MUST deny the FACT that ONLY TWO U.S. citizens are not only necessary for birth, but for citizenship also.

If the BIG Talkers and BIG Bloggers can not understand the original intent of John Jay underling the word “born” in “natural born Citizen”, maybe it would help if they spent a few minutes to study what “born” meant to John Jay by thoughtfully studying your simply stated query,

>> "Query:

>> "Would the Founders and Framers,
>> "who wanted to assure the preservation of the new constitutional republic
>> "which they built with blood, sweat, and tears shed in a war with Great Britain,
>> "and who wrote in the Constitution
>> "that after its adoption
>> "only a “natural born Citizen”
>> "is eligible to be President,
>> "have allowed the child of that British "natural born subject" father and American citizen mother
>> "to be eligible to be President and Commander in Chief of the Military in 2009? "



Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Anonymous said...

Robert said... "Soil?
Who among us does not recognize the place of his birth and hold it above other places at least in some small manner; and, usually, to a great degree?"

Your observations are all accurate but presented with a giant flaw. They imply something that cannot be taken for granted, and that is the location of one's home and neighbors and countrymen.

There is no intrinsic connection between birth place and home. If a son is born to a North Korean ambassador in a foreign land, when he returns home and his son is raised as North Korean, what sentiment will be instilled in him regarding his place of birth? NONE!

No attachments exist in a new-born baby. Every view and feeling is absorbed from one's surroundings as one matures in their home community, which may be competitive with one's birth place, -like a Spartan born in Athens of a Spartan's Athenian wife returned to her mother for her first birth. Blood trumps a momentary transition into the world.

The importance of birth place stands as irrelevant in the presence of what matters most, and that is your unalienable rights.

You have an inviolable right to pass your national membership to your children. There is no god-like law or monster that abolishes that right at the water's edge. It goes with you everywhere in the world.

With you as a sovereign citizen of the United States, your child will automatically inherit your connection to your country because that is a right it is born with.

If it were not, then it would be merely property and not a part of you. Whatever is a part of you is a part of your country also since you are a part of it.

You can't separate citizenship birthright from Natural Rights. Either you have them or the government has them instead.

a.nash

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash said:

"Domestically, there was never a circumstance that forced a court to issue a legal ruling as to whether or not such common law citizens, born of aliens, were eligible to be President by reason of being considered to be "natural born citizens", but aside from that one unsettled issue, they were in every respect equal to children of Americans...

But the State Department drew a line regarding such children if their circumstance did not tend toward the raising of an American.

If an immigrant couple had a child in America but shortly thereafter moved back to their European homeland, and that child at adulthood sought to acquire an American passport or travel papers under the assertion of being an American, that child would be denied acknowledgement of citizenship and given nothing.
"

Unfortunately, his words are belied by those of the New York Chancery Court in Lynch v. Clark:

"Suppose a person should be elected president who was native born, but of alien parents; could there be any reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the Constitution? I think not. The position would be decisive in his favor, that by the rule of the common law, in force when the Constitution was adopted, he is a citizen."

And further:

"Upon principle, therefore, I can entertain no doubt, but that by the law of the United States, every person born within the dominions and allegiance of the United States, whatever the situation of his parents, is a natural born citizen. It is surprising that there has been no judicial decision upon this question."


Julia Lynch was born to British parents during a brief visit to the US after which they all left and never returned. The ruling of the court that she was a natural born citizen regardless of this and the fact that England could claim her as a citizen through her parents clearly contradicts everything Mr. Nash said above.

Anonymous said...

Art wrote: "ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents is the original intent of the original Founders and Framers...including John Jay who underlined “born” in “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” presupposition.

You point of reference is incorrect. "Born" was not underlined for the reason of emphasizing the timing or commencement of one's citizenship ("from") but the origin of it.

Was it by law, by custom, tradition, or was it by inherited nature? (-political nature)

Was one's nationality something they were born as or something they were merely born with, (-with commencement not beginning at one year nor ten years of age but from delivery)?

If you artificially inseminate a zebra with a horse embryo, it will become a new member of the herd "from" birth, but will never be a natural member "by" birth.

One can be an American "from" birth via the common law rule, but one can only be a natural citizen if one was conceived as an American from American political DNA and entered the world by being born that way.

From the bare-bones logic of natural principles, one is either born being a citizen by nature or one is born "with" citizenship conferred at delivery (legal citizenship as apposed to natural citizenship).

Anonymous said...

Slartibartfast said..."If they had wanted that, they should have said so. Instead, they used a term that had been synonymous with "born a citizen" for two centuries."

From: Three Ways to Citizenship & Three Views of "Natural Born" :

Those who assert that the President of the United States can be a dual-citizen by blood (not birth location), born of an immigrant or even a non-immigrant alien, do so on the faith and insistence that the English term “natural born subject” was simply adjusted into the American term “natural born citizen”, -but that has errors of logic.

The first is the assumption that the English term was in common use when there was no reason for that to be so. It was a needed term for some time after the Calvin case in the beginning of the 1600s in order to badger the subjects of England into accepting the alien-born in Britain as being co-equal subjects of Britain. The success of that effort is seen in the calamity that grips Britain today, with very alien people from far away alien places being granted residency in Britain as if they were equivalent to all natural born Englishmen and women in every way, meaning culturally, philosophically, politically, religiously, etc. Their equality campaign begun in the 1600s has turned into a monster that is ruining their nation.

Once everyone got over having to accept the alien-born as equals, then the practice of labeling them with the same description as those born of Englishmen (natural born subject) could be allowed to wither. In time, perhaps a generation or more, people would have returned to simply using the term “subject”, -or in an international context; “British subject”. There was no purpose served to use added verbiage since it contributed nothing and wasn’t needed to differentiate who was allowed to be King and who wasn’t. That was determined not by election but by blood, royal blood.

So to believe that the term “natural born subject” was is use by any other than lawyers dealing with nationality cases is absurd. So one can’t logically assert that the Americans simple switched from use the word “subject” to using “citizen” instead. In fact, the Americans in general did not switch from using the term subject since it was ingrained into their psyche from birth. In fact, three quarters of a century later, those schooled and steeped in British common law and statute law (along with colonial & State law) were still using the term “subject” instead of “citizen”.

That reveals something important about the founders and their mind-set. They had made a psychological, philosophical leap out of their establishment world-view and into another view entirely different in nature. They abandoned and rejected the universal power and authority of Britain and her king and embraced in their place the principles of Natural Rights and human liberty. Their view and their mental orientation underwent an enormous revolution, -one which did not begin in 1776 but in 1760.

cont...

Anonymous said...

That fact is fully illuminated by John Adams in a letter he wrote titled “ The Meaning of the American Revolution

http://americansod.wordpress.com/2014/04/27/john-adams-the-meaning-of-the-american-revolution/

Those whose minds were not revolutionized remained stuck in the bog of subjectship thinking, in which government was supreme and the people were subject.

But for those who escaped that obedient, loyal status quo mind-set, they shed the baggage that came with it, which included the British policy of nationality assignment and the unreal, artificial, fictional terminology that accompanied it.

It would be foolish to think that Americans were actually oblivious to the difference between those born of Belgium, Prussian, Polish, or French parents and those born of American parents. Children of such parents were members of a family with a foreign culture and language. Not noticing their differences would have been impossible. They even marveled at how different citizens from some other States were.

So it is inconceivable that Americans would have thrown around the terms natural born subject or citizen indiscriminately without regard for the differences between alien-born children of foreign families and American-born children of American families.

Think about it, under the British system, why would you call the child of an American couple a natural born subject and yet also call the child of alien parents a natural born subject? Why not simplify it and just call them both simply “subjects”.

The one term lumped them together and there was no legal difference. Both were subjects from birth. With that naturally being the case, why would anyone use the terminology “natural born citizen” either?
Unless… there was a recognized difference of some significance which needed to be illuminated by using all three words.
Of course that difference was over who would and would not be eligible to be President. He had to be American citizen born.

Otherwise, using “born citizen” or “born a citizen”, or “a common law citizen” or “native-born citizen” could have been used instead. But none of those terms exclude sons of aliens.

None of those terms include exclusively the sons of Americans, -citizens by descent.

With that being true, it is illogical and highly unlikely that the word “natural” just happens to imply that which would have served the purpose that the founders and framers sought, namely;
to avoid by all means the infiltration of foreign influence which would accompany the foreign-backed son of a foreigner, -raised with foreign values and sentiments and attachments and loyalties; -and not allow such a one to grasp the scepter of power in America, (the Command of the American military forces).

Such an association between their openly expressed concerns of foreign influence and the meaning of the word “natural” cannot reasonably be attributed to nothing but coincidence.

It had to be deliberate. It makes perfect, irrefutable sense. They meant to exclude all who were not born as natural citizens but instead were born with a foreign nationality.

http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/04/27/three-ways-to-citizenship-three-views-of-natural-born/

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

Your argument about Mr. Griggs (in addition to being total hogwash) completely absolves President Obama of fraud since you are claiming that he would have learned Griggs' "error" as fact in law school. Even if you were able to take your case to court and win, it wouldn't make President Obama retroactively ineligible either.

Also, if Griggs made an error why do prior sources such as Lynch v. Clark or James Madison explicitly agree with his interpretation?

Furthermore, if an alien visitor isn't subject to the jurisdiction, then why can the police arrest them for crimes committed while they are on US soil?

Finally, you clearly don't understand what the word "statute" means. It refers to laws passed by Congress, not the US Constitution (i.e. the 14th Amendment) or judicial rulings (i.e. case law).

President Obama, like all native-born citizens, derives his citizenship through the US Constitution---implicitly under the Constitution as originally written (see Lynch v. Clark) as well as explicitly under the 14th Amendment.

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

You forgot to consider the possibility that none of the "BIG bloggers" or "BIG talkers" want to touch this issue with a 10' pole because your arguments have absolutely no merit and are an embarrassment to the Republican party and the right in general.

It is certainly a much simpler argument than the massive conspiracy theory you envision.

Anonymous said...

Here's a dynamite quote that's highly relevant to the nbc debate:

"In science consensus is irrelevant."
my sister responded: "That's because it is no longer science, it's justifying support for a political narrative which usually involves reducing freedom and taking money. In the case of climate change, BIG money."

—Michael Crichton, Aliens cause Global Warming [January 17, 2003 speech at the California Institute of Technology]

"I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks.
Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled.
(sound familiar?)

Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had.

Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, -which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world.

In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.

There is no such thing as "consensus science". If it’s consensus, it isn’t science. If it’s science, it isn’t consensus. Period."

And that sums up status quo consensus legal opinion on the truth about citizenship and NBC.

Anonymous said...

Slarti reasoned falsely: "you are claiming that he would have learned Griggs' "error" as fact in law school."

You just don't pay any attention do you? How many times have I said his error is an institutionalized error. What institution recognizes its own errors? NONE!

No one recognized it until it finally sunk into my realization. I knew there had to be some source for Obama's presumed citizenship but could not discover what it was.

It turns out that there is none in US law but it exists (and no where else) in U.S. policy.
Who instituted that policy? My guess is it could be no one other than the man with the authority, which was used in a letter in 1901 authorizing issuing a passport for an Italian man born in the U.S. to tourists or short-term visitors.

All I did was connect the dots. The A.G. interprets the SCOTUS opinions for the executive branch, and his over-interpretation was a travesty against sanity and reason.

"if an alien visitor isn't subject to the jurisdiction, then why can the police arrest them for crimes committed while they are on US soil?"

Because civil jurisdiction has nothing to do with political jurisdiction which only citizens and immigrants are subject to, beginning with national defense.

People like you who have never known that jurisdiction in its starkest power haven't a clue as to what political jurisdiction involves. In other words, you do not know how the world really works.

No policeman or judge can send you to your death in battle, but the executive branch can. That is the citizenship jurisdiction that was extended to immigrants after the court decreed their children to be subject.
If the child is subject, then so also is the father since subjection flows through him. Ever since they have been subject to conscription whether or not they think it is fair. They're sent to prison if they refuse.
I learned that from the horse's mouth (person experience).

As for Madison, the view of a common law State rep. is in and of a different world than that of an executive of the State Department who has to deal with foreign sovereign powers and their views of which nation has sovereignty over a person with split parentage.

Madison saw the issue through different eyes as President than as merely a rep of a single State that had no foreign relations.

You are aware of how many views President Obama has reversed 100% (after election) from those as Senator.
And what nonsense is this of asserting that the meaning of "statute" is beyond me? You quoted no misapplication because I made none.

"Obama, like all native-born citizens, derives his citizenship through the US Constitution..."

What idiocy. No one's citizenship is related to the original constitution, but regardless, "citizenship" is not natural born citizenship. I guess you didn't get that memo, shmuck.

MichaelN said...

Slartibartfast said...

"If they had wanted that, they should have said so."

---------------
Yeah, you said it Kev.

Kinda like the majority of SCOTUS in the Wong Kim Ark case, didn't say that WKA was a natural born citizen of the United States, but they did say Wong was a "citizen of the United States" per the 14th Amendment which the majority of SCOTUS in two separate cases, siad did not say who shall be natural born citizens.

Like also the Framers didn't say "native born" or "born" citizen, in Article II.

Like Binney (cited favorably by the majority of SCOTUS in the WKA case) didn't say "natural born child of an alien, if born in the country", but did say "the child of an alien" and in contrast, when referring to those native born to US citizens, said "the natural born child".

Interesting how people, as you say "should have said" something, "if they wanted that", if they really meant it to be.

Anonymous said...

There was a titanic struggle over citizenship between the States and the executive branch of the U.S. government.
The feds rejected dual-citizenship and the clashes of sovereignty that it can produced, while the States embraced it since more citizens (by immigration) meant a larger State population and Census count, giving them greater clout in Congress.

Think of California and its representation in Congress. It's massive, all because of head-count. Immigrants were good. State citizenship for them was good and only fair. But nothing could make them natural Americans except having American parents.

Imagine a nation of 1.5 billion people, and all of them are of the same racial and ethnic background, with no outsiders present at all.
Then one day the first visiting couple arrives, and the wife has a baby.

Would the 1.5 billion natives view that baby as a natural member of their country? Or as an alien born of aliens? As a natural insider or as an outsider who just happened to be born while in their country?

Common sense tells you the answer.

a.nash

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

I would like to point out that since no one shares your views and, as such, they are completely irrelevant, but I am truly impressed by your ability to strain at gnats and swallow camels.

Please explain why Griggs made a mistake in following the clear understanding expressed in Lynch v. Clark, the Virginia citizenship law penned by Jefferson himself, the words of Madison and the holding in Wong Kim Ark itself.

As for your views on science---they are as badly cracked as the rest of your notions, but off-topic for this blog.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

Regarding your James Madison 1789 quote, why do you continue to be dishonest about it? William Smith was born in South Carolina before the Revolutionary War. His parents died when he was 11 years old. He was studying abroad in Switzerland when he reached the age of majority during the American Revolution. Smith delayed coming back to the United States during the Revolution after he turned 21 years old. Founder, physician, and historian, William Ramsay, maintained that Smith played a wait-and-see game to see who was going to win the war and was not qualified to be a U.S. Representative because he had not been a “citizen of the United States” for the requisite minimum of 7 years. Ramsay argued that Smith could not be a citizen before returning to the United States because only by adhering to the Revolution could one become a citizen. Ramsay said that at best Smith was a citizen for 5 years, but not for 7. Consequently, you know that the only issue that Madison addressed was whether Smith was a “citizen of the United States” under Article I for at least 7 years, for he surely could not be nor did he need to be a natural born citizen which under Article II only applied to one who wanted to be President and was born after the adoption of the Constitution. Madison looked to the law of South Carolina for an answer to the question of whether Smith was a citizen. He found no applicable law (he did not look to its former English common law) and so relied upon “principles of a general nature.”

In quoting Madison, you and other Obots never give us his full quote. Here it is:

"It is an established maxim that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth however derives its force sometimes from place and sometimes from parentage, but in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States; it will therefore be unnecessary to investigate any other. Mr. Smith founds his claim upon his birthright; his ancestors were among the first settlers of that colony."

You and other Obots always leave off the end of his quote, “his ancestors were among the first settlers of that colony.” You leave the “ancestor” part off because it goes to confirm that Madison did not only look to place of birth but also to parentage. Madison concluded that Smith was a member of South Carolina because he was born there and because “his ancestors were among the first settlers of that colony.” Congress ruled 36-1 that Smith was a citizen of the United States for the minimum of 7 years and therefore eligible to be a Representative. Since Ramsay was perfectly correct in his position, Smith probably got Congress to rule he was eligible because Smith was well connected politically.
Thus, Madison was not defining an Article II “natural born citizen” in 1789. We know how Madison later defined a natural born citizen from the James McClure citizenship case of 1811 during which “Publius” explained and his administration ruled that a child born after July 4, 1776 in the United States to alien parents was alien born and in need of naturalization. Hence, there is no way that Madison would have ruled that a child born in the United States to alien parents was a natural born citizen. That left only a child born in the country to parents who were its citizens to be a natural born citizen.

What is also critical to understand about the Smith-Ramsay debate is that the participants involved in the debate, to establish that Smith was a citizen or not a citizen, relied upon natural law, the political philosophies of John Lock, Emer de Vattel, and the law of nations, as they related to citizenship (Smith himself cited and quoted Vattel) to prove his citizenship and not William Blackstone and the English common law. This proves that at the adoption of the Constitution, we were no longer using the English common law to define our national citizenship, but rather natural law, Locke, Vattel, and the law of nations.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

I do not understand why you place so much reliance upon the New York state case of Lynch v. Clarke (1844). The case was a state case involving inheritance rights in New York. Julia Lynch needed to be a citizen of the State of New York and no more in order to inherit property in New York. First, in its dicta comment related to a natural born citizen and eligibility to be president, the New York court conflated and confounded a subject of a colony under the English common law with a national natural born citizen under American national common law. Second, the court gave one of the most dishonest readings and interpretations of the early naturalization acts of Congress that a court could ever give. Third, New York’s very legislature subsequently overruled the case. Fourth, but more than that, the U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) explained that a natural born citizen was a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth and that all the rest of the people under that same common law were “aliens or foreigners” who could be naturalized under Acts of Congress or treaties. So clearly, Minor, not only did not cite the Lynch decision, but outright disagreed with it. I know that you know that they taught us in law school that the U.S. Supreme Court trumps a state court.

So, Slartibartfast, do you have any other support for your position, for Madison and Lynch surely do not work for you.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

In defending your theory that a child born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents is included as a natural born citizen, you said: “Blood trumps a momentary transition into the world.”

The problem with your statement is that you rely on an undefined arbitrary measure of time which you call “momentary.” How long does the transition have to be to start working prejudice of that blood? Any number that you give will be arbitrary and just pulled out of the air. Avoiding subjective measures and rather making the standard rely strictly upon objective elements, the natural born citizen rule is that being a natural born citizen begins for everyone at the objective moment of birth, when the objective factors of the place of birth and the citizen birth parents unite in their child to allow their child to be born with unity of allegiance and citizenship to the United States.

Also, I have never said that a child born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents is not a citizen of the United States (although that was the case from 1802 to 1855). What I have said is that such a child is not an Article II natural born citizen, unless born out of the United States to a mother serving or assisting her husband in serving the U.S. national defense interest. The problem that you have is that such a child is not a natural born citizen which, given that the Founders, Framers, and Ratifiers tied that status to eligibility for the Office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military, can only require the highest level of attachment to the United States which is sole and absolute allegiance, faith, and loyalty from the moment of birth to the United States. A child born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents may under a naturalization Act of Congress be a citizen of the United States at birth, but he or she is also born subject to a foreign power which that child acquires at birth from the foreign soil on which he or she is born. (A child born to one or two alien parents inherits that same foreign allegiance from his or her alien parent.) The required highest level of attachment to the United States can be achieved only by birth in the United States (or its jurisdictional equivalent) to parents who were both U.S. citizens at the time of the child’s birth, for this is the only child who is born a citizen of the United States and at that time not subject to any foreign power or allegiance.

So, Mr. Nash, your no-boundries thesis is destroyed not only by historical and legal evidence, but also by reason, logic, and our nation's national security needs.

Slartibartfast said...

Mr. Nash,

One more point about how poorly you understand the written word.

You said:

"Slarti reasoned falsely: "you are claiming that he would have learned Griggs' "error" as fact in law school."

You just don't pay any attention do you? How many times have I said his error is an institutionalized error. What institution recognizes its own errors? NONE!
"

It is you who is not paying attention, not to mention making my point for me. I was accepting your premise that this was an institutionalized error and pointing out that, as a result, President Obama's legal education would have included the "erroneous" belief rather than the truth that has apparently been revealed only to you (messiah complex much?). President Obama cannot be responsible for fraud based on a good faith effort to follow the law as he had learned it. If you were right, you could conceivably get the SCOTUS to rule in your favor, but in doing so you would legitimize President Obama. Would you be satisfied with that outcome?

ajtelles said...

"The Copywriter's Eight Cs"

1/2

h2ooflife, the comment that you addressed to me on April 28, 2014 at 2:56 PM has some interesting points, one of which is worth the time to do a point-counterpoint, but, man, you might want to consider studying the copywriter's craft, not be be come a copywriter but to understand the basics of context and coherent continuity.

After quoting my coherent comment accurately, you went off on a tangent, again.

>> “Art wrote:
>> ' "ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents is the original intent
>> “of the original Founders and Framers...
>> “including John Jay
>> “who underlined “born” in “natural born Citizen”
>> “with the implicit “from birth” presupposition.


>> “You point of reference is incorrect.
>> ' "Born" was not underlined for the reason of
>> “emphasizing the timing
>> “or commencement
>> “of one's citizenship ("from")
>> “but the origin of it.”


At the end of >> “with the implicit “from birth” presupposition” I would add “... for his national security reason”.

h2o, it is your point of reference that in incorrect.

The point of reference is John Jay exclusively, underlining the word “born” for his national security reason explicitly stated in his note to George Washington, which Washington put before the Convention delegates for their consideration, which the Framers of Article II accepted and adopted on September 17, 1787, which was ratified the next year by the Ratifiers. The original birther Framers and the separate original birther Ratifiers understood Jay's intent without the need to quibble about Jay's reason, “timing”, “commencement” or “origin”.

The point of reference is John Jay, not what you think Jay's reason was. Unless you mean something else, the “origin of it” implies the “union” of the two persons, yes, BUT, the child had to be born, period. Jay was not emphasizing the “union” of the two persons, but the “result” of the “union” 9 months later. The child had to be born somewhere, aka the soil. So, without the “union” there could not be a “birth” on the soil that the TWO U.S. citizen parents claimed as THEIR national soil BEFORE the child is born.

When Jay underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” he was emphasizing the act of being born, NOT the act that was the necessary precedent of being born. The Framers and Ratifiers understood that without needing to discuss what “born” meant to John Jay.

- - - - - - - - - -

ajtelles said...

"The Copywriter's Eight Cs"

2/2

h2ooflife, I have a friendly writing suggestion.

Do what professional screenwriters and advertising copywriters do... write... and rewrite... and rewrite... and rewrite... and rewrite...

... THEN publish.

I'm not a professional copywriter (... i.e., "professional" meaning I don't get paid for writing copy for others or for myself), but, when it important, I literally "craft" the text, edited and re-edited, until it says exactly what I want it to say—with as few words as possible to make the point, to be voluble without being garrulous, AND with a lot of "white" space.

That's it.
That's all.

- - - - - - - - - -

For anybody interested in copywriting, American Writers and Artists Inc. has an excellent copywriting course, excellent even for those who do not want to pursue a direct-response copywriter vocation.

>> [ http://www.awaionline.com/ ]

And, no, it is NOT an affiliate link and I do NOT get payment for the referral; I recommend it because it is substantive and worth EVERY dollar.

After studying the AWAI copywriting course for personal edification only, I came up with a useful memory aid that I call "The Copywriter's Eight Cs" for informing, persuading, convincing, from header to PS. Of course, as professional copywriters know, not everybody agrees with what is written because not all buy the product or the idea that is being proposed, but at least it is well written, from header to PS.

"The Copywriter's Eight Cs"

1 Content
2 Context
3 Continuity
4 Coherence
5 Clarity
6 Credibility
7 Conviction
8 Conclusion

That is the subconscious writing process—from header to PS.

Persuasion with credible content presented coherently with clarity and continuity in context to produce credibility for the proposition, and—hopefully—a convincing conclusion,

_buy my idea
_buy my product

As as NIKE says, Just Do It with content that is contextual, maintain the continuity coherently and clearly to persuade that the concluding conviction by the reader is credible.

As Leo Burnett said,

_Make it simple.
_Make it memorable.
_Make it inviting to look at.
_Make it fun to read.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Stranger said...

Slarti, the magnitude of your obtuseness is almost limitless.

You entire shpeel is about citizenship versus no citizenship. I showed why Obama is not even a citizen by Wong and you deflect to whether or not Obama is guilty of knowingly running for President while believing that he is legitimately an American citizen.

It doesn't matter if he is a legitimate common law citizen. He is not a natural born citizen because he is not a citizen at all, -except by official policy.

Policy is not law, nor is it nature, nor natural inheritance, descent, nor birthright.
If you are not a citizen by blood then you are either not a citizen or are a citizen by legal means not involving conception and birth.

There is no recognized, acknowledge element of anything natural in common law jus soli citizenship. So how dare fools call it "natural"?

And please share with us where I stated that anything was "revealed" to me. Nothing has been revealed to anyone. I simply saw enough factors of disparate nature that happened to be related, and for which I, due to my life experience, recognized the relationship between them, connecting the dots that had not been seen, nor understood previously.
No one wants to address those connections, preferring to remain in their ignorance and silent about them.
Including Mario, who has no comprehension whatsoever as to the meaning of jurisdiction and political authority, but that doesn't stop him nor you from your soap-box assertions in the sandbox of your inexperienced ideological civilian world.

It's all just ideas in your insulated heads, with no connection to real-world experience or reality, -which you don't even know exists in relationship to citizenship.

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Actually, they work fine for the points that I'm trying to make. Madison was, as you say, speaking of a general principle which, in his words, applied to the United States (not merely South Carolina). The part of the quote you appended does nothing to change his plain meaning that birth in the US is sufficient to confer citizenship. It also reflects what was commonly held at the time whatever the national law truly was. Likewise, Lynch v. Clark shows a court taking the position that there is no doubt that the child of aliens is natural born. Throw in all available civics and legal texts. The holding in Wong Kim Ark. With any number of sources from which President Obama may have learned that he was eligible (right or wrong) and no potential source from which he might have learned otherwise, President Obama could not possibly have committed fraud in the matter.

Nor would the SCOTUS ruling in your favor impact President Obama, since it would merely overturn Wong and not give rise to any high crimes and misdemeanors for which to impeach President Obama. In other words, even if the SCOTUS gave you the remedy you seek (a ruling on the definition of "natural born citizen"), it would only legitimize President Obama.

Setting aside that the SCOTUS cannot, by law, give you the definition you say you want*, let me ask you the same thing I asked Mr. Nash, would you accept having the SCOTUS rule in your favor on the definition of NBC if it meant that President Obama was considered eligible? Which is more important to you, the Constitution or your jihad against the lawfully elected POTUS?


* I would point out that had Ankeny been appealed to the SCOUTS, it would have settled the matter as its denial would have acknowledged that President Obama is natural born. I guess the plaintiffs didn't want the matter settled if it was going to be settled against them.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "-the natural born citizen rule is that being a natural born citizen begins for everyone at the objective moment of birth,"

Really? "the rule"??? What rule? Oh, the one you made up. Show me where God said it is so, -or nature. Never mind, just show we where a founding father said it is so. They didn't because it would be a mistake.

The child inside a mother does not become hers only after it is born. It is conceived being hers and if she and the father are both Americans, it will also naturally belong to America as an American national.

Just because its personhood is not recognized until birth doesn't mean that its inherent nature isn't recognizable as determined by the nature of the parents, with the birth event changing nothing.

The children of Americans are born being natural born citizens. They do not become such only after delivery, but that is not true of common law children.

If the baby of aliens is strangled in the womb by the umbilical cord and dies just before birth, it is not a dead American citizen.

It has no American nationality attached, but if a child has American parents, it would be delivered as a dead natural born citizen, -a dead member of their family and nation, because it is that by nature, -not legal or common law convention.

"when the objective factors of the place of birth and the citizen birth parents unite in their child to allow their child..."

In natural national membership, there is only one single objective factor: were the mother and father both Americans or not? If one is an alien, then the child is a political hybrid and not a natural citizen of any nation, -with its birth place being irrelevant to that reality. But... it's also irrelevant even if they both are!

Ask yourself; was Obama's birth place related to making him more or less not a natural born citizen? Would he be less of an NBC if not U.S. born?
Ridiculous! He either is or is not. There are no degrees. Same with American parents and birth place. It doesn't make one more or less of an NBC either because it is irrelevant to inheritance by blood and patrilineal descent.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

I see that you now have a new mantra, the common law does not define a natural born citizen. I guess my little lecture to you on the American and English common law really kicked you good. I just love watching you keep changing your presentation, taking from this blog, repackaging it, and passing it off as your own.

Well, I hate to tell you but not only are you full of contradictions, but now you are getting more and more incoherent as you try harder and harder to maintain your position. You are just losing it. Why do you not try for once to write something, other than what you have taken from others and passed off as your own, that is not only your personal belief, but rather that has some basis in history, law, reason, and logic?

ajtelles said...

Tutorial vs Nonsense...

Mario, on April 28, 2014 at 10:22 PM, Slartibartfast, aka S.st said two things,

1 -

>> "With any number of sources from
>> "which President Obama may have learned that he was eligible
>> "(right or wrong)
>> "and no potential source from which he might have learned otherwise,
>> "President Obama could not possibly have committed fraud in the matter."


[Without addressing the original intent of Article II, S.st is defending BHO against fraud by changing the debate.]

2 -

>> "... would you accept having the SCOTUS rule in your favor
>> "on the definition of NBC
>> 'if
>> "it meant that President Obama was considered eligible?


["if" ???
There you go again S.st, changing the debate arbitrarily.]


>> "Which is more important to you,
>> "the Constitution
>> "or your jihad against the lawfully elected POTUS?"


[So S.st arbitrarily changed the debate again by positing nonsense against the original intent of the Constitution.]

Come on S.st, is that the best response to Mario's excellent tutorial?

Don't you have a counterpoint to a point, other than to change the debate, for example, by comparing nonsense with the Constitution?

Sheesh.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Unknown said...

Chief Justice Marshal used vattel to describe the natives using same quote found in minor. Does any reasonable, honest person think that the child of white settlers born in indian territory wouldve been considered a native by whatever tribe was in charge? Does any reasonable, honest person think that the children of abenaki indians born in their territory would not have been a true native member of the abenakis? The Founders only wanted the natives or natural born citizens to be CiC after adoption for obvious reasons, the main one being loyalty to our tribe which was started in 1776

Stranger said...

Sooooo, no matter what I write, I cannot get Mario to dispute any of it by addressing it. Guess how many times I've made a point that refutes his orthodoxy and had him completely ignore it? Just about every time, and this one is no different.

He just climbs up on his high soap box and pronounces the upstart to be wrong, and then like a good teacher he...shows the error of fact or logic???

No, instead he just declares errors of fact and logic with no explanations and brushes all of the truth revealed to him aside because it destroys his dogma.

One can't have a discussion if one side is unwilling to discuss but instead will only pontificate.

I respond to many things he writes. He responds to nothing that I write unless he first distorts it and then he just knocks down his own self-made strawman. What else can he do unless he wants to respond and prove himself wrong.

The more comprehensive become his lambasts the more one can be sure that he feels surrounded on all sides by truths he cannot acknowledge without crumbling.

Anyway, if any of the geniuses in this little sandbox would truly like to understand something about jurisdiction and citizenship in regard to taxation, here's a real eye opener related to citizenship renunciation.
All that pertains to citizens does NOT pertain to foreign guests, visitors, -tourists, and ambassadors. You'll see why their children are not born subject like a citizen's children are.

http://news.yahoo.com/more-renounce-us-citizenship-deny-stereotype-162509477.html

Anonymous said...

Slarti asked the unbelievable: " President Obama cannot be responsible for fraud based on a good faith effort to follow the law as he had learned it. If you were right, you could conceivably get the SCOTUS to rule in your favor, but in doing so you would legitimize President Obama. Would you be satisfied with that outcome?"

Legitimize??? As in legitimize his assumption that he is a native-born citizen by the Griggs error?
That would not be ruling in my favor since I hold that error to be illegitimate and grounded on nothing in the Wong holding which was limited to immigrants, -as you are well aware but must pretend to not be, you fraud.

Obama would not be guilty of fraudulently pretending to be a U.S. citizen if he actually believes he was born in Hawaii as his mother no doubt told him.

She could never tell him the truth that she figuratively went to the ends of the Earth seeking to get rid of him at delivery by having an adoptive couple take him off of her hands, -ending up in Vancouver, B.C.

He never heard that from her lips, though he may have discovered it somehow, -or not.

But mere citizenship is irrelevant to the presidency. He knew from the first time he read the eligibility requirement that he could not meet it since there was no way he could possibly be considered a natural born citizen with an alien, non-immigrant British-subject Kenyan father.

If his mother had been his father's Kenyan wife, you would still be claiming that he innocently believed he was a natural born American. What's the difference? What difference does it make if you have one alien parent or two? -since you're ineligible either way.

So unless you just beamed down from Saturn, you've made yourself look like a fool for framing your focus on citizenship and fraudulence and avoiding the subject of constitutional eligibility.

ajtelles said...

No response...

Mario, on April 29, 2014 at 2:32 AM, Nash, using the handle of Stranger, wagged his finger at you because you did not agree with him, again. Stranger, aka h2ooflife, aka h2o, with his shallow finger-wag response to you is not responsive, again.

- - - - - - - - - -

>> "Sooooo, no matter what I write,
>> "I cannot get Mario to dispute any of it by addressing it.

[...]

>> "He just climbs up on his high soap box
>> "and pronounces the upstart to be wrong,
>> "and then like a good teacher he
>> "...shows the error of fact or logic???"


Come on, h2o, a finger wag is not a response to articulate substance.

Your responses to Mario on his blog appear to observers of your comments to be the equivalent of a first-semester college freshman contending with an experienced professor who instantly spots the fuzzy logic of a developing mind and responds according to the moment while hoping some of the historical substance will sink in.

- - - - - - - - - -

Also, Mario, h2o has still not responded to this pertinent point I made to him on April 28, 2014 at 9:17 PM, in response to this from h2o -

>> “Art wrote:

>> “You point of reference is incorrect.
>> ' "Born" was not underlined for the reason of
>> “emphasizing the timing
>> “or commencement
>> “of one's citizenship ("from")
>> “but the origin of it.”


My amended response to h2o is -

h2o, it is your “... origin of it” point of reference that is not thoughtful and it is incorrect.

When Jay underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen”
he was emphasizing the ACT of being born,
he was NOT emphasizing the necessary preceding ACT.

The Framers and Ratifiers understood which ACT John Jay was referring to without needing to discuss what “born” meant to Jay.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, I'm not holding my breath for a substantive response from h2o, but a responsive simple statement that is easy to understand should receive a simple to understand response. Right?

So, maybe some defenders of the Obama birth narrative of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent can clarify which ACT John Jay was referring to, and thereby reveal what they think Jay's original intent was in underlining the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” with his national security reason.

Well, Mario, I am also not holding my breath for a substantive response by the O-birthers.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

As is normal for him, Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife likes to try to impress his audience by demonstrating that he can find fault in no matter what someone else says. He seeks to do that by attempting to distinguish what one says from what he presents to be the truth of the matter. For example, and apart from all the contradictory and baseless things he says, regardless of what someone says, if what is said does not promote his no-boundaries thesis of a natural born citizen, he will simply say that natural law (what he just creates in his own mind to suit his end and without providing any authoritative sources to support his position) shows one’s position to be wrong.

You will also note that the only time Mr. Nash says anything that is correct is when he takes from others on this blog, repackages it, and passes it off as his own.

Now he is on a new kick, among his many (now he also argues that a natural born citizen is not defined by common law), with the word “born.” Rather than accept the word born for its simple meaning as applied in the context of citizenship, i.e., the moment in time when a baby comes out of his or her mother’s womb, he wants to blather about procreation, conception, and fetuses. The next thing that we can expect from the illustrious Mr. Nash is how the definition of life determines how we are to define a natural born citizen and therefore since life exists throughout Earth, we do not need borders to limit who are the natural born citizens of the United States.

In the past, I have recommended for Mr. Nash, bed rest. I repeat my recommendation.

ajtelles said...

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....

Mario, I got a chuckle from your April 29, 2014 at 11:03 AM observation about your student, and friendly nemesis of us all on your blog here and other blogs where I have read h2o's corrective comments to others, Stranger / Adrien Nash / h2ooflife, aka h2o.

>> "Now he is on a new kick, among his many
>> "(now he also argues that a natural born citizen is not defined by common law),
>> "with the word “born.”

>> "Rather than accept the word born
>> "for its simple meaning as applied in the context of citizenship,
>> "i.e., the moment in time
>> "when a baby comes out of his or her mother’s womb,
>> "he wants to blather about
>> "procreation,
>> "conception, and
>> "fetuses.

>> "The next thing that we can expect from the illustrious Mr. Nash
>> "is how the definition of life
>> "determines how we are to define a natural born citizen
>> "and therefore
>> "since life exists throughout Earth,
>> "we do not need borders
>> "to limit
>> "who are the natural born citizens
>> "of the United States.

>> "In the past, I have recommended for Mr. Nash, bed rest.
>> "I repeat my recommendation."


- - - - - - - - - -

>> "since life exists throughout Earth,
>> "we do not need borders ... ."


Yep, heh heh heh heh heh.


Art
U.S. Constitution.
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash @April 29, 2014 5:03 AM,

I of II

I have already addressed your state naturalization argument in the past and you simply just repeat it here.

It is absurd for you to state that after Congress passed the first Naturalization Act of 1790, the individual states still held on to the naturalization power to each determine under state law whether children born in their state to alien parents or children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents would be accepted as “citizens of the United States.” Now, a state could declare such person to be state citizens, but those state citizens were not citizens of the United States under any federal law. Clearly, any state naturalization laws would conflict with the federal laws on immigration. Since the Constitution gave Congress the power to make all the naturalization laws uniform, allowing the states to continue to make and/or enforce naturalization laws effecting national citizenship would have thwarted Congress’s work to make all the naturalization laws concerning national citizenship uniform throughout the United States. One simple example of the chaos that would result is that some states had religious requirements which they adopted from the English common law while some other states did not. Also, that naturalizations occurred in state courts does not mean that it occurred under state law. National elections also occur in the states but it is still federal law which controls those elections when federal offices and/or federal constitutional rights are involved.

See Chirac v. Chirac, 15 U.S. (2 Wheat.) 259, 269 (1817) (Chief Justice John Marshall stating “[t]hat the power of naturalization is exclusively in Congress does not seem to be, and certainly ought not to be, controverted”); Scott v. Sandford (1857) (“The Constitution has conferred on Congress the right to establish an uniform rule of naturalization, and this right is evidently exclusive, and has always been held by this court to be so. Consequently, no State, since the adoption of the Constitution, can, by naturalizing an alien, invest him with the rights and privileges secured to a citizen of a State under the Federal Government, although, so far as the State alone was concerned, he would undoubtedly be entitled to the rights of a citizen and clothed with all the rights and immunities which the Constitution and laws of the State attached to that character”); Passenger Cases (1849) (Massachusetts and New York passed laws taxing and otherwise impeding immigrants. These were appealed to the Supreme Court, which struck them down in two cases ruling that although the Constitution said nothing about immigration directly, it was clearly “foreign commerce,” which the Constitution explicitly reserved to Congress; and Congress's jurisdiction was preemptive so that even in the absence of any federal legislation, state governments could not regulate immigration); and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (“The power, granted to Congress by the Constitution, ‘to establish an uniform rule of naturalization’ was long ago adjudged by this court to be vested exclusively in Congress. Chirac v. Chirac (1817), 2 Wheat. 259”).

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Additionally, are we to believe that the states also determined who were the natural born citizens? How could a uniform rule on the meaning of a natural born citizen exist if each state could determine its own definition which in effect would cause an amendment of the Constitution without duly ratified amendment each time a state passed and/or changed its law as to who was a natural born citizen? As I have explained to you in the past, it does not take a constitutional expert to realize that we cannot have 50 states each telling us what a “natural born citizen” and a “citizen of the United States” are. Rather, we have in our constitutional system rules which bring uniformity and certainty to these definitions. Defining a “natural born citizen” is done by reliance on the constitutionally fixed American national common law the nomenclature of which the Framers were familiar when they drafted the Constitution. Minor v. Happersett (1875); U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898). On the other hand, defining the “citizens of the United States” by virtue of birth in the United States is done by reliance upon the Fourteenth Amendment. Wong Kim Ark. Finally, defining all the other “citizens of the United States,” whether at birth or after birth, is strictly the province of the national government acting through Congress through its naturalization powers (8 U.S.C. Sec. 1401 et seq.) and acting through the President and the Senate through their treaty powers. Article I, Section 2, Clause 2.

So, Mr. Nash, as most of what you write here, you have again shown yourself to be ignorant on matters of which you tell people you are some great authority.

Slartibartfast said...

Sorry guys, but I've got some things going on in the real world and can't spare the time for completely unproductive activity right now. I'll be back eventually (probably, anyway) to find out about all of the progress you've made towards getting President Obama out of office---or at least coming to an agreement amongst yourselves of what crime he has committed and what evidence proves his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

I'll also be sure to drop by briefly to eat crow when the SCOTUS announces that it will hear Mario's Vermont case... or not.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"You are looking for naturalization records of children born in the United States to alien parents before the U.S. Supreme Court decided U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark in 1898."

No. You already conceded that no such records exists. Your theory that such children were born aliens is ludicrous in light of that admission.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I guess founder historian and doctor, David Ramsay, did not get your memo before he explained that after July 4, 1776, birthright citizenship as a “natural right” was preserved only for a child born to citizen parents".

I got his memo, not the other way, because of how time works. As I've said over and over, until Wong there were respectable doubts on jus soli in the U.S. The doubts were not the prevailing view. You recently noted that Ramsay's position lost in Congress 36 to 1. That's solid, founding-era evidence that jus soli bestowed U.S. citizenship upon birth.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I guess the James Madison Administration did not get your memo. Here is what Publius (probably President James Madison)"

What a mess. Madison supported jus soli. The unknown author writing as "Publius" (to take the author to be President Madison is the height of gullibility) held that the states, not federal law, determined citizenship upon birth. The only Constitutional power of Congress over citizenship, at the time, was to set uniform rules of naturalization.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"And let us not forget the U.S. Government and Chief Justice Fuller and Justice Harlan in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (in dissent), who maintained that Wong, even though born in the United States, was alien born because he was not born to U.S. citizen parents. It looks like they also did not get your memo."

The key bit is: "in dissent". The opinion of the United States Supreme Court disagreed with the personal opinions of Fuller and Harlan on that. It was 6 to 2, so closer than the founding era crushing of Dr. Ramsay's opinion, but again jus soli prevailed.

What's more, even the Wong dissent rejects your theory. Fuller and Harlan don't agree with you, Mr. Apuzzo. They agree with Adrien Nash that jus sanguinis alone makes a natural-born citizen, at least from the standpoint of our government.

Anonymous said...

Dear Mario, your ignorance continues to astound me. Exhibit 1.
"Clearly, any state naturalization laws would conflict with the federal laws on immigration."

How do you, as a pseudo-authority, made such a totally unfounded statement?
FEDERAL IMMIGRATION LAW DID NOT EXIST!!!!!!
All immigration (and naturalization) remained by the 9th & 10 Amendments under the sovereignty of the STATES.

You got this right: "Now, a state could declare such person to be state citizens, but those state citizens were not citizens of the United States under any federal law."

Just as I've been repeating over and over. They both had separate and conflict nationality recognition. The States followed law common law for their immigrants' children, (-not their own.) The feds did not. They followed only citizenship by descent. Only it avoided dual-allegiance and sovereignty conflict.

"...would have thwarted Congress’s work to make all the naturalization laws concerning national citizenship uniform throughout the United States."

Wake up! No national citizenship law existed until the Civil Rights Act of 1866. All citizenship was via State citizenship.

One was an American by being born of State citizens, not the other way around. National citizenship was irrelevant to everything unless you were leaving the country and needed travel papers.
All States recognized the citizens of all other States as fellow Americans, regardless of the national government and national "citizenship".

In fact, in reality, national citizenship didn't exist with the exception of federal jury duty. In fact, to the world, there were no "U.S. citizens"; there were and are only U.S. Nationals. All that governments recognize about foreigners is nationality. They don't care about citizenship.

If an American Samoan visits another place, anywhere in the world, including the US, they are recognized as U.S. Nationals. And so are all other Americans also. Citizenship is irrelevant to foreign governments. They don't care what your civic rights are back in your homeland.

Anonymous said...

re-quoting Scott v. Sandford (1857)
"[a] State...can, by naturalizing an alien, invest him with the rights and privileges secured to a citizen of a State, -clothed with all the rights and immunities which the Constitution and laws of the State attached to that character”

While within one's home State, all government was State government and protection. Only when traveling abroad was the State jurisdiction switched to that of the national government and its protection. Once back on American soil, the federal sovereignty ended and State sovereignty resumed. THAT was the federal system and balance of sovereignty.

"Chief Justice John Marshall stating “[t]hat the power of naturalization is exclusively in Congress" He was ignorant. The "power" of naturalization was in the OATH! -nothing else!

Men naturalized themselves by their vow before God and man. Nothing in life could compare to it except the power of the vow of matrimony -which was far less dire since it didn't come with the possibility of execution for treason.
The power of the naturalization vow is seen in the power of the words of Muslim men who can divorce a wife by saying "I divorce you." three times. If he speaks those words, their marriage is no more.

"How could a uniform rule on the meaning of a natural born citizen exist if each state could determine its own definition which in effect would..."

Did you get shot in the head? Why do you so transparently create a false straw man out of nowhere and then proceed to pretend that you are knocking down one of the assertions that neither I nor anyone else has ever made? Your audacity is astonishing.

"Finally, defining all the other citizens of the United States,..."

There are no definitions of U.S. citizens. You pretend that what only exists in your imagination is real. It is unAmerican to define and categorized and classify Americans. Only the Census Bureau has that right and responsibility.

Americans are not defined by how their citizenship is acquired anymore than they are defined as citizens by race.
All Americans are EQUAL! THERE ARE NO CLASSES OR DEFINITIONS under any law. Natural born citizens are defined outside of the law. Their definition is from the sociological or natural realm, -not common law.

It is pure ignorance to believe that the Americans were not capable of using English words that carried their English meanings.

Anonymous said...

~Today's Original Thoughts~

George Washington was Odin.
Thor was a natural born citizen, like Ronald Reagan.
Loki was not. He was like Barry Obama; an outsider. Not of Asgard blood. Not loyal solely to Asgard's protection and benefit.

He had an alien agenda, motive, and scheme. He wanted to transform the situation of Asgard, for "for its own good" of course.
He could not be trusted. He was a major security risk. He betray his kingdom and his family because he was not fully one of them. He was of another group.

He was lacking in the embrace of the principles of Asgard and obedience to its law. Loki was a traitor to both. -as is Obama. An amazing coincidence?
~~~~~
Do you have an unalienable right to vote?
Do you have an unalienable right to NOT vote?

Do you have an unalienable right to buy health insurance?
Do you have an unalienable right to NOT buy health insurance?

a. nash

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

I of III

I wrote:

"You are looking for naturalization records of children born in the United States to alien parents before the U.S. Supreme Court decided U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark in 1898."

You responded to me:

“No. You already conceded that no such records exists. Your theory that such children were born aliens is ludicrous in light of that admission.”

-----

No. I guess you also maintain that James Madison, the Father of the Constitution and anonymously writing as Publius in The Federalist Papers, was off his rocker when his Administration, which included then-Secretary of State, James Monroe, along with U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Johnson (in Shanks v. Dupont (1830) he said, like Justice Story and rest of the majority, that in citizenship “proles sequitur sortem paternam,” which means children follow the condition or citizenship of their parents), ruled in the James McClure citizenship case of 1811 that under the Naturalization Act of 1802 children born in the U.S. to alien parents were alien born and in need of naturalization, and that they naturalized as “Citizens of the United States” after their birth upon their parents naturalization, provided the children were still minors and dwelling in the U.S. and in default thereof only upon their own naturalization during their years of majority. That my friend is “authority” of which you speak so much. And not only is it authority, but it is controlling authority, for they were around when the Constitution was in Convention conceived, proposed, debated, drafted, debated some more, and adopted, and in the states again debated and finally ratified.

You said: “As I've said over and over, until Wong there were respectable doubts on jus soli in the U.S. The doubts were not the prevailing view.” First, the doubts were not about who was a natural born citizen, for there never existed any such doubts. Second, the doubts were about whether a child born in the U.S. to alien parents was a citizen of the U.S. under the then-new Fourteenth Amendment with its ambiguous “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” clause. Again, the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) said that they were not Fourteenth Amendment citizens and rightly so given the then-existing law and understanding that under the common law both a citizen and a natural born citizen was born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. That sure looks like a prevailing view to me. But then I know, “authority” and “real courts” only count when they go in your favor. Also, it also looks like the Slaughterhouse Court did not get your memo.

I guess you also maintain that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) was off its rocker when it said that under the common law the nomenclature with which the Framers were familiar when they drafted and adopted the Constitution a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth was not only a citizen like his or her parents but also a native or natural born citizen and that under that same common law all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners.” It sure looks to me like your U.S-born child born to alien parents would have been an alien or foreigner under the Court’s ruling and in need of naturalization under an Act of Congress or treaty. But then, I understand that not even one of those nine Justices got your memo.

As to why minors’ naturalization records do not exist, as I explained before, no such naturalization records exists because minors born in the U.S. to alien parents did not need to do anything to show they were citizens if ever challenged as such other than present their birth certificates and their parents naturalization papers just like alien wives who married U.S. citizen husbands who became citizens of the U.S. upon their marriage only had to present their marriage certificates and husband’s birth certificates to prove they too were citizens of the U.S.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

A prime example of this process is de facto President Chester Arthur’s case. He was born to a non-U.S. citizen father who had married a U.S. citizen mother which made her also an alien. Hence, Arthur was born to a father and mother who were both aliens at the time of his birth. His father naturalized when Arthur was 14 years old. At that time both Chester’s mother and Chester himself became citizens of the U.S. The minor Chester did not have to get any naturalization papers. He just automatically became a citizen of the U.S. under the Naturalization Act of 1802 when his father naturalized since he was still a minor then and dwelling in the U.S. Arthur was not born to citizen parents, he was not a natural born citizen, and consequently not eligible to be either President or Vice-President.

Alien children who did not become naturalized and reached the age of majority did not see any need to naturalize. It cost them more money than the benefit they received from going through the formal naturalization process was worth. Evidently, given our lax immigration and naturalization system which did not yet have any immigration benefit dolling and enforcing government agencies, they were able to lead a normal enough life without anyone bothering them. But then as we see in the Wong decision, the federal government, through its customs office (not immigration and naturalization department), had a change of heart with respect to the children of Chinese subjects. The first time that Wong went out of the country to go to China, he had no problem entering the U.S. The second time that he tried it, upon his attempted entry, he was told by a customs officer that he was not a citizen of the U.S. Indeed, the Federal Government agreed and argued: “Because the said Wong Kim Ark, although born in the city and county of San Francisco, State of California, United States of America, is not, under the laws of the State of California and of the United States, a citizen thereof, the mother and father of the said Wong Kim Ark being Chinese persons and subjects of the Emperor of China, and the said Wong Kim Ark being also a Chinese person and a subject of the Emperor of China.” Both the District Court of the United States for the Northern District of California and the U.S. Supreme Court disagreed with the U.S. Government and held that Wong was a “citizen of the United States” from the moment of his birth by virtue of the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment. They did not hold that he was a natural born citizen by virtue of the common law which both Minor and the Wong Kim Ark Court itself explained provided the Framers with their definition of a natural born citizen.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

Remember that Arthur burned all his important papers before his death. Why did he do that? Consider why the losing side in New Jersey Supreme Court case of Benny v. O'Brien, 58 N.J. Law, 29 Vroom 36, 39, 40 (1895) (argued that a person, born in the United States of Scotch parents who were domiciled but had not been naturalized was born “subject to a foreign power” and not born “subject to the jurisdiction of the United States” and therefore not a citizen of the United States” within the meaning of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment), the Federal Government in Wong Kim Ark, U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice Fuller and Justice Harlan in Wong Kim Ark, and other federal government officials and constitutional scholars who had written on the meaning of a natural born citizen would have said that children born in the United States to alien parents were not born as citizens if Arthur, a former President and Vice-President, was born under those exact circumstances but yet was elected Vice-President and converted to President upon President Garfield’s assassination. Why did the Benny Court (ruled that, if freed slaves, who were not born to citizen parents were to be allowed to be citizens of the United States under the Fourteenth Amendment, then a person, born in the United States of Scotch parents who were domiciled but had not been naturalized was also not born “subject to a foreign power” and born “subject to the jurisdiction of the United States” and therefore a citizen of the United States”), Justice Gray, or any other Justice in the Wong majority not comment on Arthur’s case being a precedent for their position? One would think that like the Indiana Ankeny court used the Arthur example as a precedent to support its ruling that a natural born citizen includes a child born in the U.S to alien parents, those Courts, officers, and scholars would have been guided by the same precedent. The only logical answer is that the Courts, federal officers, scholars, other authorities, and the nation either turned a blind eye to Arthur’s usurpation of the U.S. presidency and vice-presidency or, with Arthur having burned his personal papers, they did not know of Arthur’s true birth circumstances.

The rest is politics and Obot revisionist history and law.

Carlyle said...

From the FWIW file:


New Jewish Bible

Proverbs 17:12
Sooner meet a bereaved she-bear
Than a fool with his nonsense.


This website has become a mixture of intelligent inquiry and dialog, and nonsense. Would that a little greater effort could be spent on winnowing.

(Yes, Mario, I know you are busy, but one can hope!)

Anonymous said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I guess founder historian and doctor, David Ramsay, did not get your memo before he explained that after July 4, 1776, birthright citizenship as a “natural right” was preserved only for a child born to citizen parents".

Mario, when will you finally get the memo of what Ramsay's words mean??? "BIRTHRIGHT CITIZENSHIP"! "NATURAL RIGHT"! Your fantasy of citizenship is diametrically opposed to his.

If you compare your concept of the NATURAL RIGHT of citizenship to a man, he appears solid and is, but the instant he steps across the borderline he becomes and INVISIBLE MAN! He goes away, vanishes. POOF! GONE!

Please explain how an unalienable right knows borders and ends at them?
Right to Life? It stops at the border, mister. Property? Same. Liberty? Bye-bye. the American citizenship of your children? Vanished.

In Mario's view, no young man "on entering into society, reserves to his children THE RIGHT of becoming members of [his country]. The country of the fathers is therefore [NOT!] that of the children,..."

Vattle observed that "in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born IN THE COUNTRY!!!!"
No, wait, -something's wrong. The spirit of Mario took over my mind for a brief second and I misquoted Vattel. Now with my senses restored I can share his actual words: ""in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a
person be BORN OF A FATHER who is a citizen"!!!

Say,... where'd reference to birth location disappear to??? It must be there somewhere, and if it isn't, we'll just pretend that it is. No one will ever notice the difference.

Vattel concluded with "for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country."
-and conversely; "if he is born there [a foreign country] of an American, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country."
So... an American child is born in say... Cuba. Cuba is not his country, and in MarioWorld, the U.S. is not his country either because his American parents crossed the borderline and their NATURAL RIGHT to have their child inherit their American membership vanished into invisibility!

Where'd it go??? It went nowhere! It only vanished in the nativist's deluded mind.

There's another major point in Ramsay's words that were also overlooked. He wrote of "a natural right" of citizenship, but failed to address a common law right, which is not a natural right but is a legal right.

Children of aliens have no natural right to be deemed Americans but by the long colonial history of common law membership, it was so well established that that was the entrenched colonial / State policy, (and the Law, after independence) that it became viewed as being a Right, when it was no right at all but was merely permission, allowance, a gift of membership for outsiders' children.

a.nash

Anonymous said...

Unknown wrote: "The unknown author writing as "Publius" (to take the author to be President Madison is the height of gullibility)"

It assumed without any evidence or hint whatsoever that Madison as President was disinterested in such fundamental matters and wouldn't bother to write about them, but considering all he had written previously out of intense interest, that's the height of STUPIDITY!

Who in America would have had an uncontrollable urge to fake his identity by employing such a widely known and respected moniker as Publius?
No one who cared about the subject matter as did the author, a writer whose character was unimpugnable, would have even had such a thought.

If the letter was sent to the same newspaper that had other letters by Madison writing as Publius, they could have compared the handwriting and seen whether it was the same or not.
So don't peddle the tripe that Madison as the author is unreasonable when the opposite is true.
His view as PRESIDENT was totally different from his view as a representative of a State, -just like Obama's views changed drastically.
As chief executive, his concern was natural right versus legal right, State membership versus national membership, U.S. membership versus international (British) views of membership (perpetual allegiance).

And at the top of the list was eligibility for the Presidency. Alien-born citizen versus natural born citizen.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

I of III

Dr. Ramsay expressed Vattel’s pure natural law concept of natural born citizen. But when natural law is applied to nations, that law becomes the law of nations and can take on different requirements because of the needs of nations. Under the law of nation, Vattel also said that the municipal laws of a nation also have to be followed when it comes to children born out of the country to citizen parents. Here is what Vattel said in greater context than what you present:

§ 211. What is our country.
THE whole of the countries possessed by a nation and subject to its laws, forms, as we have already said, its territory, and is the common country of all the individuals of the nation. We have been obliged to anticipate the definition of the term, native country (§ 122), because our subject led us to treat of the love of our country — a virtue so excellent and so necessary in a state. Supposing, then, this definition already known, it remains that we should explain several things that have a relation to this subject, and answer the questions that naturally arise from it.

§ 212. Citizens and natives.
The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights. The society is supposed to desire this, in consequence of what it owes to its own preservation; and it is presumed, as matter of course, that each citizen, on entering into society, reserves to his children the right of becoming members of it. The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent. We shall soon see whether, on their coming to the years of discretion, they may renounce their right, and what they owe to the society in which they were born. I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.

§ 213. Inhabitants.
The inhabitants, as distinguished from citizens, are foreigners, who are permitted to settle and stay in the country. Bound to the society by their residence, they are subject to the laws of the state while they reside in it; and they are obliged to defend it, because it grants them protection, though they do not participate in all the rights of citizens. They enjoy only the advantages which the law or custom gives them. The perpetual inhabitants are those who have received the right of perpetual residence. These are a kind of citizens of an inferior order, and are united to the society without participating in all its advantages. Their children follow the condition of their fathers; and, as the state has given to these the right of perpetual residence, their right passes to their posterity.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

§ 214. Naturalization.(58)
A nation, or the sovereign who represents it, may grant to a foreigner the quality of citizen, by admitting him into the body of the political society. This is called naturalization. There are some states in which the sovereign cannot grant to a foreigner all the rights of citizens, — for example, that of holding public offices — and where, consequently, he has the power of granting only an imperfect naturalization. It is here a regulation of the fundamental law, which limits the power of the prince. In other states, as in England and Poland, the prince cannot naturalize a single person, without the concurrence of the nation, represented by its deputies. Finally, there are states, as, for instance, England, where the single circumstance of being born in the country naturalizes the children of a foreigner.

§ 215. Children of citizens born in a foreign country.
It is asked whether the children born of citizens in a foreign country are citizens? The laws have decided this question in several countries, and their regulations must be followed.(59) By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers, and enter into all their rights (§ 212); the place of birth produces no change in this particular, and cannot, of itself, furnish any reason for taking from a child what nature has given him; I say "of itself," for, civil or political laws may, for particular reasons, ordain otherwise. But I suppose that the father has not entirely quitted his country in order to settle elsewhere. If he has fixed his abode in a foreign country, he is become a member of another society, at least as a perpetual inhabitant; and his children will be members of it also.

§ 216. Children born at sea.
As to children born at sea, if they are born in those parts of it that are possessed by their nation, they are born in the country: if it is on the open sea, there is no reason to make a distinction between them and those who are born in the country; for, naturally, it is our extraction, not the place of our birth, that gives us rights: and if the children are born in a vessel belonging to the nation, they may be reputed born in its territories; for, it is natural to consider the vessels of a nation as parts of its territory, especially when they sail upon a free sea, since the state retains its jurisdiction over those vessels. And as, according to the commonly received custom, this jurisdiction is preserved over the vessels, even in parts of the sea subject to a foreign dominion, all the children born in the vessels of a nation are considered as born in its territory. For the same reason, those born in a foreign vessel are reputed born in a foreign country, unless their birth took place in a port belonging to their own nation; for, the port is more particularly a part of the territory; and the mother, though at that moment on board a foreign vessel, is not on that account out of the country. I suppose that she and her husband have not quitted their native country to settle elsewhere.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

§ 217. Children born in the armies of the state.
For the same reasons also, children born out of the country, in the armies of the state, or in the house of its minister at a foreign court, are reputed born in the country; for a citizen who is absent with his family, on the service of the state, but still dependent on it, and subject to its jurisdiction, cannot be considered as having quitted its territory.

As you can see, Vattel required both birth in the country and birth to citizen parents to be a natural born citizen. Minor v. Happersett (1875) informed us in 1875 that this definition became the common law definition upon which the Framers relied when they defined both a citizen and a natural born citizen. Vattel did add that children born out of the country to citizen parents could be citizens if that is what the nation wanted and so expressed through its positive and municipal laws. Our First Congress in 1790 in the Naturalization Act of 1790 declared that such children “shall be considered as natural born citizens.” In 1795, the Third Congress in the Naturalization Act of 1795, with the lead of then-Representative James Madison and with the approval of President George Washington, changed it to “shall be considered as citizens of the United States” which is more in line with what Vattel wrote about the status of such children. Congress has never again referred to such children as natural born citizens and neither has our U.S. Supreme Court. Even assuming that Congress has the power to change the common law definition of a natural born citizen (which I do not think it does), it only exercised it once but then it changed its position and left that status at just citizen of the United States. So, what Congress can give, Congress can take away.

The unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor v. Happersett (1875) paraphrased Vattel’s Section 212 definition of a natural born citizen when it said:

“At common-law, with the nomenclature of which the framers of the Constitution were familiar, it was never doubted that all children born in a country of parents who were its citizens became themselves, upon their birth, citizens also. These were natives or natural-born citizens, as distinguished from aliens or foreigners.”

U.S. Wong Kim Ark in 1898 confirmed this to be the definition of a natural born citizen. As you can see from a plain reading of what both Minor and Wong Kim Ark said, birth in the country was a necessary factor to be met by one wanting to be a natural born citizen.

So, today the status of children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents stands as citizens of the United States, not natural born citizens. Additionally, Congress is always free to change that status too, like it did in the Naturalization Act of 1802, which considered children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who acquired that status after 1802 as alien born. Congress only again granted such children the status of citizens of the United States in 1855 with the Naturalization Act of 1855.

So, Mr. Nash, your view of things is nothing but your personal opinion which is not based on our history and law and on reason and logic.

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "under the common law both a citizen and a natural born citizen was born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth."

That's an awfully constructed statement because it describes the same citizens twice. You left out the point that children of aliens were also citizens under the common law.
"in Minor v. Happersett...a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth was not only a citizen like his or her parents but also a native or natural born citizen"

That is 100% true, and Mario should plant his flag there and defend that ground exclusively, -which does not contain any requirement that a natural born citizen be identified by birth place since the wording is "a child" NOT "Only a child".
HUGE difference, and one that can't be defended or explained on the basis of American rights.

But the justices erred in the assumption that all others were aliens. That was only the view from the federal government's perspective; not from that of the States which remained sovereign over the membership of their own inhabitants.
Those States whose laws granted or recognized the inclusion (as citizens) of the alien-born within their borders did NOT view them as aliens but as fellow citizens by the common law extant for over a century.
They weren't viewed as natural citizens but the distinction was non-existent because no State required its Governor, and Chief in Command to be a natural born citizen (as far as anyone has discovered and shared). Naturalized and alien-born citizens could become governors, just as they could become Senators.

So there are two debates; one is over the contested citizenship of the alien-born and the other is over whether of not their debatable citizenship was natural or merely legal; -by right of descent, inheritance, blood relationship or by nothing other than the invented common law rule handed down in the Calvin case as a new form of nationality acquisition -a form that did not exist during the thousand years that preceded the Calvin case.

Can the President be a Calvin "sol" citizen born of aliens or must he be only a natural "sanguinis" citizen born of citizens?

It's blood versus borders. Which criterion came first, came naturally, organically, and which was invented, artificial, imposed and then institutionalized across the British Empire? Natural Membership or nan-made membership?

Unknown said...

New docket entry at the U.S. Supreme Court in Paige v. Vermont:

Apr 29 2014 DISTRIBUTED for Conference of May 15, 2014.

http://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docketfiles/13-1076.htm

Will this be the one eligibility deniers have been hoping for, or will yet another obot prediction come true? We'll see soon enough.

ajtelles said...

Dittos, but...

Carlyle, in the recent past I had similar sentiments as you stated on April 30, 2014 at 12:45 PM.

>> “This website has become a mixture of intelligent inquiry and dialog, and nonsense.
>> “Would that a little greater effort could be spent on winnowing.”


Primarily, at the time, I was referring only to ARNash, aka h2ooflife, aka h2o, who persists in thinking that he is adequate to the task of correcting Mario about Mario's expositions here on his own blog based on the historical record from, for example, Emer de Vattel in the 1700s to Jack Maskell in the 2000s.

But now, I think that h2o serves a friendly and useful service. His expositions, while sometimes convoluted and at other times almost fully coherent, i.e., sometimes his thought flows with continuity to a credible conclusion, what he writes as he explicates his position can be used as a spring board to deeper understanding, as I explain below.

Here is the most recent example of my response to h2o, posted on April 29, 2014 at 10:27 AM, to which h2o has not yet responded, if ever, and which I first posted on April 28, 2014 at 9:17 PM.

h2o wrote,
>> “Art wrote:

>> “You point of reference is incorrect.
>> ' "Born" was not underlined for the reason of
>> “emphasizing the timing
>> “or commencement
>> “of one's citizenship ("from")
>> “but the origin of it.”


My amended response in the second post to h2o was -

>> “h2o, it is your “... origin of it” point of reference that is not thoughtful and it is incorrect.

>> “When Jay underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen”
>> “he was emphasizing the ACT of being born,
>> “he was NOT emphasizing the necessary preceding ACT.

>> “The Framers and Ratifiers understood which ACT John Jay was referring to without needing to discuss what “born” meant to Jay.”

I use that example because I had never phrased it that way before until I noticed that h2o's use of “origin of it” was defending a natural law “ACT” that everybody understands as being a necessary “ACT”, but h2o was saying that the 1st necessary natural law ACT was John Jay's ONLY ”original intent” in underlining the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth” presupposition, and that Jay was NOT emphasizing the natural law ACT 9 months later, birth itself. For that reason Jay was also not implying the concomitant birth on the soil that the U.S citizen parents claimed as their own national soil. The same soil that Article II Section 1 Clause 5 says that a POTUS aspirant must reside on for 14 years before pursuing the office of president at the age of 35.

So, Carlyle, that's why “some” nonsense arguments serve a useful purpose. Personally, I learn a lot from Mario's educational tutorials in which he addresses the finger-wags of h2o, Unknown #11 and Slartibartfast.

As for h2o, for his own arcane reason, he never responds to my simple clarification about which “natural law ACT” John Jay was implicitly referring to when he underlined the word “born” in “natural born Citizen”.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Mr. Nash,

Stop making stuff up. Where do you see anywhere in Minor v. Happersett (1875) that the Court said that at common law the children born in the country to alien parents were natives or natural born citizens? Clearly, the Court said they were “aliens or foreigners” and could be naturalized under Acts of Congress or treaties. Given that the Court included in its definition of a native or natural born citizen the element of citizen parents, it is also clear that the Court was not referring to the English common law, but rather to American national common law. In fact, the U.S. Supreme Court in The Slaughterhouse Cases (1873) had said in 1873 when interpreting the Fourteenth Amendment that they were not citizens under the Fourteenth Amendment. So, those children were not citizens either under the common law or the Fourteenth Amendment. Do you really believe that if they were citizens under the common law the Court would have said that they were not citizens under that Amendment? Furthermore, Minor (virtually the same Court as The Slaughterhouse Cases Court) said that “some authorities” had maintained that children “born in the jurisdiction” to alien parents were "citizens." When referring to those possible additional "citizens," the Court did not make any reference to the Framers as it had when it defined a "natural born citizen." Rather, the Court was referring to the Fourteenth Amendment which was ratified in 1868. The Court then said that “there have been doubts” whether the position of those authorities was correct, clearly referring to The Slaughterhouse Cases. Since Virginia Minor was a natural born citizen, the Court did not have to answer that question and so left it unanswered.

The Fourteenth Amendment question left open by Minor was eventually answered by U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) which in 1898 held that children born in the United States to permanently domiciled and resident alien parents were “citizens of the United States” by virtue of the first sentence of the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court did not hold that Wong was a “natural born citizen.”

Thus, we know from Minor that the common law to which it referred was American national common law and not the English common law. We also know that under that common law, only children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth were not only citizens, but also natural born citizens and that all the rest of the people were “aliens or foreigners” who could be naturalized by Acts of Congress or treaties. Not only were citizen parents required, but so was birth in the country.

Given the Wong Kim Ark decision, those children born in the United States to alien parents did not have to wait for an Act of Congress to naturalize them, for the Court held that they became citizens of the United States at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment. The Court did add that as for children born out of the United States, the only way they could be citizens of the United States was by Act of Congress or treaty.

So, Mr. Nash, borders do count, for a natural born citizen has to be born not only to citizen parents, but also in the United States. And if a child is born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents, the Fourteenth Amendment does not help him or her become a citizen of the United States. Rather, that child has to rely on an Act of Congress or treaty to acquire the status of a citizen of the United States. So, Mr. Nash, you state only your personal opinion without any basis in history, law, reason, or logic.

thalightguy said...

John was born in Italy on May 23, 1934 to a U.S. citizen father who never resided in the U.S. and a U.S. citizen mother who was a resident of the U.S. her entire life. John did not acquire U.S. citizenship at birth because he did not fulfill the requirements established by Congress in the uniform Rule of Naturalization.

Bob was born in Italy on May 25, 1934 to a U.S. citizen father who never resided in the U.S. and a U.S. citizen mother who resided in the U.S. her entire life. Bob acquired U.S. citizenship at birth because he fulfilled the requirements Congress established in the uniform Rule of Naturalization on May 24, 1934.

According to the Obama Loyalist, Bob is a “natural born Citizen” because he was born a citizen of the United States. But, how can Bob be a “natural born Citizen” when John (who was born two days earlier under the exact same birth circumstances as Bob) was not even a citizen of the United States at birth?

Unknown said...

slaughterhouse said that children of aliens born in US were not citizens but it is easy to see such children were natural born citizens of course but not citizens if that uh makes any sense. Maybe the obots can lie, i mean interpret, the slaughterhouse case for us. Jay Carney is a honorary obot and national joke for all the stonewalling, lies, bs, lies, dissembling, lies, distortions, lies, evasiveness and lies he puts out there. I would guess a moral human being and real President would be embarrassed at running out baghdad bob every day but barry is neither moral or a real CiC

Unknown said...

light guy, they were both NBCs of course, That is just a obot fallacy blah blah blah on your part to assume otherwise

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Thalightguy,

I of III

Your Bob (yes) and John (no) examples show why the Jack Maskell thesis, that any person who is a born citizen, regardless of how the status may be obtained, is a natural born citizen, is to be rejected as nonsensical.

We have to accept that when the Framers said that for those persons born after the adoption of the Constitution, the President and Commander in Chief had to be a natural born citizen, at least 35 years of age, and a resident within the United States for at least 14 years, that each one of those requirements had a definite meaning and only one meaning that was fixed. The age and residency requirements are self-explanatory. Natural born citizen is not as easy for one has to find, examine, understand, and apply the source for their definition of the phrase. Based on the historical record, Acts of Congress, and subsequent U.S. Supreme Court cases, we can reasonably conclude that they defined the clause as a child born in a county to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. This was a fixed definition that became part of the supreme law of the land which could be changed or abandoned later only by duly ratified constitutional amendment.

Under the Maskell virtually anything-goes thesis of a natural born citizen, (I cannot call it a definition because it is not), i.e., any born citizen regardless of how the status is obtained is a natural born citizen, Congress can by Congressional Act or even treaty just change who can become a natural born citizen as it pleases. There simply is no constitutional standard in Maskell’s natural born citizen, for he does not tell us how or under what circumstances one becomes such a born citizen in the minds of the Framers. As you can see in your hypothetical, two persons born under the same exact birth circumstances, one is eligible to be President while one is not, all because of Congress changing its laws. The same type of result occurred under the Naturalization Act of 1802. After that Act went into effect, children born out of the United States to U.S. citizen parents who acquired that status after 1802 were alien. Prior to that Act, such children had been considered under the Act of 1795 as “citizens of the United States” at birth and prior to that considered under the Act of 1790 as “natural born citizens.” Then with the Naturalization Act of 1855, those children returned to being “citizens of the United States” at birth which is what they are today.

Allowing Congress to define the natural born citizens by telling us who the born citizens are rather than allowing the Framers to do so also produces a situation wherein different people under different birth circumstances are considered by Congress to be born citizens which then would make those persons natural born citizens even though under different birth circumstances. The various forms of born citizens can be seen in 8 U.S.C. Section 1401(a) to (h) and there are others in other statutes. Congress has continuously changed its laws regarding who may be a born citizen. For example, consider that “[t]e laws governing whether or not a child born outside of the United States acquires U.S. citizenship from parents have changed several times. You'll need to look at the law that was in effect on the date of the child's birth (and the parents' birth, if grandparents were U.S. citizens) for guidance. These laws differ for the following time periods:

--prior to May 24, 1934
--May 25, 1934 to January 12, 1941
--January 13, 1941 to December 23, 1952
--December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986, and
--November 14, 1986 to present.”

http://legal-joy.com/citizenship.html

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of III

So are we to think that the Framers would allow Congress to define a natural born citizen and to simply turn natural born citizens on and off as it pleases? It simply defies common sense and any sense of a real constitution to think that the Framers intended Congress to change the definition of a natural born citizen as it pleased without constitutional amendment. The Framers could not have intended that Congress could so easily determine who could be eligible to be President, especially when because of foreign influence they did not trust Congress to choose who was going to be President and Commander in Chief (they chose the Electoral College in the place of Congress) and they gave to Congress in matters involving citizenship only the power to make uniform the rules of naturalization. What really makes the point is that we would not imagine that the Framers would have allow Congress to change the age and residency requirements of Article II without a constitutional amendment. Hence, likewise, they also would not have allowed Congress to change the natural born citizen requirement without a like-kind amendment.

All this demonstrates the absurdity of the Maskell thesis that all born citizens (made by Congress) are natural born citizens. How does he arrive at his conclusion that all born citizens are natural born citizens which then becomes his major premise to demonstrate that persons like Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens (all born citizens are natural born citizens; Obama and Cruz are born citizens; therefore Obama and Cruz are natural born citizens)? The question being what is a natural born citizen, the answer to that question, that all born citizens are natural born citizens, is not self-proving, for there is nothing presented which is a definition of a natural born citizen. We are not told by what means or mechanism (how) one becomes a born citizen which leads us necessarily by definition to the conclusion that they are all natural born citizens as the Framers defined the clause. In other words, what is not addressed in the Maskell thesis is the qualifier “natural,” let alone how the Framers defined a natural born citizen, which is inextricably linked thereto. Stated differently, it is the definition of a “natural born citizen” itself (not the definition of a born citizen) which contains the means or mechanism (the how) by which one becomes a born citizen. Again, we have to address how one becomes a natural born citizen, not how one becomes a born citizen if we are to know whether one is a natural born citizen. If one is a born citizen by satisfying the means or mechanism by which one becomes a natural born citizen, one is then not only a born citizen, but also a natural born citizen. Maskell’s analysis of the meaning of a natural born citizen contains none of that.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of III

Maskell fails to demonstrate that how his natural born citizens come into being (simply being a born citizen by any means available) is the same as how the Framers saw their natural born citizens coming into being. Without providing any evidence of that link, he simply revises the definition of a natural born citizen and tells us that there is “consensus” and “weight of authorities” (however those are to be measured and during what time period) that shows that any born citizen, however that status is obtained, is a natural born citizen. But how can he arrive at his conclusion? Given that he does not address how the Framers defined a natural born citizen, the only logical answer is that he arrives at his conclusion/major premise by thinking that all natural born citizens are born citizens and then from there, therefore all born citizens are natural born citizens. But as I have demonstrated in my essay that is the subject of this thread, such an argument is logically invalid (it violates the rule of the undistributed middle and is also fallacious for affirming the consequent). So, in the end, while Maskell presents a report which has the superficial appearance of being authoritative and correct, underneath that veneer he proves nothing. It is incredible that persons who are supposed to be critical thinkers would accept Maskell’s nonsense.

So if Maskell got it wrong, what are we left with regarding the meaning of a natural born citizen? The totality of the relevant and hence controlling historical and legal evidence and reason and logic point to one and only one definition for the clause, a definition that does in fact contain the means and mechanism by which one becomes a born citizen which can also be linked to the Framers, and that is a child born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth.

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

Mario, your excellent "original intent" tutorial on May 1, 2014 at 10:16 AM to Thalightguy, in response to his excellent post on April 30, 2014 at 8:06 PM about "John" and "Bob" born 2 days apart, should be sent to Jack Maskell and to the SCOTUS.

In the 3rd paragraph you wrote -

>> " As you can see in your hypothetical,
>> "two persons born under the same exact birth circumstances,
>> "one is eligible to be President while one is not,
>> "all because of Congress changing its laws.

>> "The same type of result occurred under the Naturalization Act of 1802.

>> "After that Act went into effect,
>> "children born out of the United States
>> "to U.S. citizen parents
>> "who acquired that status after 1802
>> "were alien.

>> "Prior to that Act,
>> "such children had been considered under the Act of 1795
>> "as “citizens of the United States” at birth
>> "and prior to that
>> "considered under the Act of 1790
>> "as “natural born citizens.”

>> "Then with the Naturalization Act of 1855,
>> "those children returned to being “citizens of the United States” at birth
>> "which is what they are today."


After the http://legal-joy.com/citizenship.html url, in paragraph 6, you continued with this excellent "original intent" comment -

>> "So are we to think that the Framers
>> "would allow Congress
>> "to define a natural born citizen
>> "and to simply turn natural born citizens on and off as it pleases?

>> "It simply defies common sense
>> "and any sense of a real constitution
>> "to think that the Framers
>> "intended Congress
>> "to change the definition of a natural born citizen
>> "as it pleased without constitutional amendment."

[...]

>> "What really makes the point is that we would not imagine that the Framers
>> "would have allow Congress to change the age and residency requirements of Article II
>> "without a constitutional amendment.

>> "Hence, likewise, they also would not have allowed Congress
>> "to change the natural born citizen requirement
>> "without a like-kind amendment."


Original intent, what a concept. It works every time it's applied.
The O-birthers should try starting with original intent.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Unknown said...

Obama automatically became eligible once he became democratic nominee, same goes for cruz if he wins republican nomination. It only matters what the major partys want, Article 2 is irrelevant now. If you do not believe me then look who has been occupying oval office since 2009. Hitler and stalin were not born german or russian citizens respectively and look what happened to those 2 major powers under their dictatorships. I think your country has a better chance if a loyal native is head of national govt. It is very discouraging to me how corrupt and dishonest our politicians have been for decades now at least

ajtelles said...

“completely unproductive activity”...

On April 30, 2014 at 1:13 AM, Slartibartfast, aka S...t, said,

>> "... I've got some things going on in the real world
>> "and can't spare the time for completely unproductive activity right now."


Well, Mario, it seems that S...t's "completely unproductive activity" has accomplished it's objective—use a 'whole lotta' words and say nothing explicitly definitive from the 1787 original intent point of view in defense of the Obama birth narrative that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen was the original intent of "natural born Citizen" in Article II, and now his paid or unpaid "cadre" marching orders, uh, I mean, his "hope and change" wishes and dreams are taking him elsewhere.

I could be wrong about the paid or unpaid "cadre" orders part, of course, but S...t's O-birther "hope and change" wishes and dreams will compel him to return, eventually, probably, because like Unknown #11 and all Obama-birthers in Kevin Davidson's ObamaConspiracy.org universe, S...t definitely is not finished in neglecting a coherent defense from the O-birther point of view that ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS, and so he can't admit that the Obama birth narrative is contrary to the original intent of the original birthers, the Framers and Ratifiers, who accepted, adopted and ratified the original words "natural born Citizen" in Article II, with John Jay's implicit "from birth" on U.S. soil presupposition with ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, and his explicit national security reason.

>> "I'll be back eventually (probably, anyway)
>> "to find out about all of the progress you've made
>> "towards getting President Obama out of office---
>> "or at least coming to an agreement amongst yourselves
>> "of what crime he has committed
>> "and what evidence proves his guilt
>> "beyond a reasonable doubt.
[...]


S...t is still deliberately misrepresenting the purpose of defending the original intent of Article II Section 1 Clause 5, and thinks that the objective is to get pre-Benghazi, pre-Fast and Furious, pre-IRS, etc., BHObama out of the oval office handcuffed and doing a perp walk.

No, S...t, the reason to defend the original intent of A2S1C5 is to prevent ANY political party from trying to "OCCUPY" the oval office again with a POTUS aspirant who has ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, whether or not the POTUS aspirant was born on foreign soil OR born on U.S. soil, because, as John Jay explicitly stated, national security was important to him and he expected it to be important to his Unknown #11 and Slartibartfast posterity.

Well, Mario, when S...t returns, eventually, probably, maybe he can explain why Obama-birthers persist in neglecting an articulate defense of the tacit and implicit O-birther position that the original intent of John Jay's underlining the word “born” in “natural born Citizen”, with Jay's implicit “from birth” on U.S. soil presupposition, meant that Jay was purposely including the “lower hurdle” of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent and that underlining the word “born” did NOT have the meaning of ONLY the “higher hurdle” of the implicit “from birth” on U.S. soil presupposition and birth ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents.

Just as in “original genesis” it takes ONLY TWO persons to produce ONE child, the implicit “original intent” of John Jay is that it also takes ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents to produce ONE U.S. citizen who is ALSO a “natural born Citizen”. Or is there more than one “original genesis” and more than one “original intent” of the original birthers, Founders, Framers and Ratifiers?

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"I would like to see Judge Bent explain his statement [...]"

Well, I'll ask him, but I don't think he'll be very keen.
--French Guard, Monty Python and the Holy Grail (1975)


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. continued:
"In particular, he needs to address why every U.S. Supreme Court decision [...]
While he is on 'parents,' he needs to tell us [...]
Again while on 'parents,' he also needs to tell us why Ankeny [...]
Judge Bent needs to explain why Congress from 1790 until today [...]
Judge Bent needs to address whether the Framers’ purpose [...]
Finally, given his Maskell citizenship at birth theory of the natural born citizen clause, he needs to explain why [...]
Regarding his second statement, Judge Bent needs to address [...]
He needs to provide historical and legal evidence specifically linking [...]
He also needs to explain the fact that the unanimous U.S. Supreme Court in Minor [...]
Finally, since he so heavily relied upon Ankeny and Wong Kim Ark, he needs to explain Ankeny’s statement [...]"

Theoretically, Mr. Apuzzo, you could succeed at the U.S. Supreme Court and a remand or two could put the case back before Judge Bent. Unless and until that happens, Judge Bent has no such needs.

We obots can explain some of those points, but you never listen.

ajtelles said...

No "particular significance"

Mario, on March 26, 2014 at 9:31 AM you had a sensible response to Unknown/NotLinda, aka Unknown #11, about Judge Bent, the comment to which Unknown #11 makes a reference today, May 2, 2014 at 3:50 PM -

>> "As you so graciously point out,
>> "Vermont state judge, Robert Bent,
>> "in Paige v. Obama,
>> "made the following statements there: ... "

>> "While the court has no doubt at this point
>> "that Emmerich de Vattel's treatise /The Law of Nations/
>> "was a work of significant value to the founding fathers,
>> "the court does not conclude that the phrase --
>> "'The natives,
>> "or natural born citizens,
>> "are those born in the country,
>> "of parents who are citizens.'
>> "-- has constitutional significance
>> "or that his use of the 'parents' in the plural
>> "has particular significance."

>> "Paige v. Obama, No. 611-8-12 WNCV (Vt. Superior Ct., Sept. 21, 2012)."


- - - - - - - - - -

So, a sensible question to Unknown #11 about Judge Bent's conclusion is, which source and/or sources does Judge Bent use on which to base his conclusion? If he can not adduce at least one source, his subjective conclusion is no more relevant to define the original intent meaning "natural born Citizen" than Unknown #11's or mine or Mario's.

Judge Bent adduces NO source, so his conclusion is as forgettable as yesterday's weather forecast, and it definitely has no "particular significance", dicta or otherwise.


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

I of IV

Here is more on original intent and meaning which demonstrates that Vermont Judge Bent is simply wrong in concluding that Vattel’s Section 212 definition of a natural born citizen and his use of “parents” in the plural have no constitutional significance.

Dr. Conspiracy wrote an article on his blog on April 2, 2010, attacking my filing in the Kerchner v. Obama appeal the 1789 article written by founder, physician, and historian, David Ramsay, entitled, Manner of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen of the United States. His article may be read at http://www.obamaconspiracy.org/2010/04/1787-document-on-citizenship/ . I had also written an essay on Ramsay’s dissertation which I published on this blog on April 2, 2010. It is entitled, “Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789” and can be read at http://puzo1.blogspot.com/2010/04/founder-and-historian-david-ramsay.html .

In grand Dr. Conspiracy style, he dismisses Ramsay’s scholarly and well-written dissertation on how citizenship is acquired and on the definition of a natural born citizen as nothing more than a Ramsay political stunt designed to beat his congressional political opponent, William Smith. Of course, he also throws in the race card, trying to discredit Ramsay based on his view of whether slaves were at that time citizens. What is also absurd about Dr. Conspiracy’s argument is that he says, while Ramsay said that “citizenship is the inheritance of the children of those who have taken part in the late revolution; but this is confined exclusively to the children of those who were themselves citizens,” and “[t]he citizenship of no man could be previous to the Declaration of Independence, and, as a natural right belongs to none but those who have been born of citizens since the 4th of July, 1776,″ that he was only talking about citizenship by inheritance and not citizenship by birth in the country. I guess it did not occur to Dr. Conspiracy that maybe Ramsay did not want to talk about jus soli citizenship because he as the others at that time also read Vattel and decided that jus soli no longer applied in the new America. Dr. Conspiracy also argues that since Ramsay did not say that a natural born citizen had to be born in the country, how he defined one does not support Vattel’s Section 212 definition, i.e.: “The natives, or natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens.” He adds based on pure speculation that Ramsay may have also considered a child born in a foreign nation to just one citizen parent as natural born citizen. Dr. Conspiracy’s argument fails given that prior to the Cable Act of 1922, husband and wives were either both U.S. citizens or aliens (regardless of how they obtained their status) and our U.S. Supreme Court (see Minor v. Happersett and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark) has not only required two citizen parents as did Vattel and Ramsay in order to be a natural born citizen, but also birth in the country.

Now, let us examine some other interesting items that go to establishing original intent and meaning and also which further demonstrate that Judge Bent’s position is not based on any relevant historical and legal sources. During the Ramsay-Smith congressional debate, William Smith cited and quoted Vattel to prove that he was a citizen. He explained:

“The Doctor [Ramsay] says the circumstances of birth do not make a citizen–This I also deny. Vattel says: “The country of the father is that of the children and these become citizens by their tacit consent.” 4 I was born a Carolinian [before July 4, 1776], and I defy the Doctor to say at what moment I was disenfranchised. The revolution which took place in America made me a citizen under the new government though then resident at Geneva. . . . Not finding anything in his [Smith’s] character or morals, which he [Ramsay] dared attack, he was driven to this

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of IV

expedient: he attacked his right of citizenship, his birth right—that which at the age of eleven, when an orphan, was left him by his father! . . . When it is recollected that my ancestors came into Carolina upwards of a hundred years ago—that I was born in this city—that everything I hold most dear in the world is in Carolina, nay, in this district. . .”

Footnote 4 See Emerich de Vattel, The Law of Nations; or Principles of the Law of Nature Applied to the Conduct and Affairs of Nations and Sovereigns (Joseph Chitty, trans. Philadelphia, 1835), 101.

1 The Documentary History of the First Federal Elections, 1788-1790, p. 178 (M. Jensen and R.A. Becker eds., 1976) (Documentary History), accessed at http://books.google.com/books?id=sxS00wE2l5kC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Documentary+History+of+the+First+Federal+Elections+Vol+1&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cYJiU_jUCYSryASWk4HAAg&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Now this is a member of the House of Representatives citing and quoting Vattel on citizenship in 1789 in his own argument that he was a citizen. Given that he was defending himself, he surely would have cited and quoted the most authoritative source on the subject matter that he could find. Smith picked Vattel. It surely is telling that Smith in his own defense picked Vattel, natural law, and the law of nations and did not pick William Blackstone and the English common.

And here is what one commentator on Smith’s eligibility, “Epaminondas,” said in a letter he wrote which appeared on November 25, 1789 in the Charleston City Gazette newspaper. After reading this passage, is there any doubt that Judge Bent got it wrong about whether Vattel is constitutionally significant:

“Epaminondas to the Public, City Gazette, 25 November
For that he [Smith] is a citizen now we may well admit, altho it may be denied by that principle of the British constitution, which says, ‘that the natural born subject of one prince cannot by swearing allegiance to another prince put off or discharge him from that natural allegiance, and that it cannot be deserted without the concurrent act of that prince to whom it was first due.’ But now being an independent nation we make no appeals to the British constitution, but to the general law of nations which should decide this point, should his allegiance ever be claimed by the Crown of Great Britain.”

***

What then do these laws say? They say, ‘that the first founders or states, and all those who afterwards became members thereof, are supposed to have stipulated, that their children and descendants should at their first coming into the world have the right of enjoying those advantages which are common to all the members of the state; provided nevertheless, that those descendants, when they attain to the use of reason, be on their part willing to submit to the government and to acknowledge the authority of the sovereign: but the stipulation of the parents cannot in its own nature have the force of subjecting the children against their will to an authority to which they would not themselves choose to submit. Hence the authority of the sovereign over the children of the members of the state, and the right on the other hand which these children have to the protection of the sovereign and to the advantages of the government, are founded on mutual consent. Nor if the children of members of the state upon attaining to the years of discretion are willing to live in the place of their parentage, or in their native country, they are by this very act supposed to submit themselves to the power that governs the state.’ From this account of the matter, I think, two corollaries may be drawn: 1st. That no person does or can by birth become the absolute subject of any state; there is indeed an obligation on the sovereign of that state where he is born, to admit him as a subject, should such be his election, when he arrives at the age of discretion, but no obligation on his part so to elect. 2d. That a

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

III of IV

voluntary residence in the country where one is born, after he arrives to years of discretion: (and a fortiori to years of maturity) completes his part of the contract, and establishes his civil connection with that state. This cannot be destroyed but by some overt act of a higher and stronger nature, either on the part of the sovereign, or on his own part. In the one case it may be a withdrawing of common protection, or a banishment of his person: in the other case a voluntary removal from that state, and the swearing of allegiance to and settling of himself in another. When either of these take place the connection is dissolved. If the first of these inferences be not true, then it remains that the honorable gentleman now offering as a candidate inherited an unqualified allegiance to the Crown of England from his father who died a British Subject."

Documentary History at 188.

Smith himself cited and quoted Vattel to show he was a citizen. Epaminondas, maintained that Smith was not a citizen for the needed 7 years. And from the text of what he wrote we can see that he used John Locke, Emer de Vattel, and the law of nations (all putting forth citizenship inherited through the consent of citizen parents) to make his case. He made absolutely no reference to William Blackstone and the English common law. He said that only the original citizens or those who may later become members of the country could pass by inheritance to their children the right to citizenship at the time of their birth (“at their first coming into the world”). It was by being a member of the country that those parents consented to the children born to them that they too could be members of their country from the moment of their birth. He put forth a theory of citizenship based on the minor child inheriting the citizenship held by his or her citizen parents which he or she could tacitly accept or throw off and take on another upon reaching the age of majority. See John Locke, Two Treatises of Government (1689); Emer de Vattel, The Law of Nations, Sections 212 to 227 (London 1797) (1st ed. Neuchatel 1758) (both espouse the same position). He also included cases in which a person can lose his or her citizenship, which Vattel covered in Sections 228 to 233 of The Law of Nations.

Another writer who joined in the Ramsay-Smith debate published an article in the Public, City Gazette, on November 24, entitled “An Enemy to Quibblers,” in which he said: “A ‘natural born citizen’ here [in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5] clearly means ‘a person born in the American colonies’ while they were under the British government.” Documentary History at 184. Ramsay had maintained that Smith was ineligible to serve in as a Representative in Congress because he was a citizen of the United States for only 5 years rather than the required minimum of 7. He said that Smith chose to remain in England for two years after he turned the age of majority which was 21 years. He did not return to South Carolina until 1783. With such a delayed return, Ramsay concluded that Smith was only a 5 years citizen of the United States rather than a 7 years one. This writer attacked Smith’s position. To make Smith a citizen for a least the 7 years, he said that citizenship had to go back to the colonies (before July 4, 1776) and before there was a United States or else given the 14-year residency requirement no one would have been eligible to be President. From that argument, he concluded that Smith was therefore a natural born citizen and eligible to be President. He said that if Smith was eligible to be President, he had to be eligible to be a Representative. What is ironic is that like the present day Obots who seek to show that Obama is a natural born citizen, this writer also put forth a very lose and highly expanded definition of a natural born citizen. This writer, like Slartibartfast, tied citizenship with

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

IV of IV

his version of what residency “within the United States” meant. By expanding the meaning of the United States (putting its existence at before July 4, 1776) and therefore the total time one could be a resident within it, he also enlarged the time one could have been a citizen of that same United States, having that time also start before July 4, 1776. But he did not understand that none of that was necessary, for Article II’s grandfather clause and its residency requirement as written took care of the problem he envisioned. He failed to understand that those born in the colonies upon the ratification of the Constitution became “citizens of the United States” as of July 4, 1776 and not before then, and grandfathered as eligible under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5, which did not contain a minimum citizenship time period like existed for Congressman, and that residency “within the United States” only meant residency within the territory which eventually became the United States, not residency in the actual new nation called the United States of America (the clause did not say “resident of the United States”). So the writer erred because he did not understand that citizenship of the U.S. could not have started before July 4, 1776, for there was no separate and independent political nation called the United States before then of which to be a citizen (a member), but residency (mere attachment to a physical place) within the territory that became the United States started from the time of one’s birth in the colonies. So, Dr. Ramsay was, indeed, correct that Smith had only been a citizen of the United States for only 5 years rather than the required 7 years.

As we can see from the Ramsay-Smith debate, with some exceptions expressed by persons who did not demonstrate good reason, intellectuals and political commentators during the Founding were relying on Locke, Vattel, the law of nations, and consent-based theory of citizenship, and not Blackstone and the English common law as the sources for defining who were the citizens and the natural born citizens. Undoubtedly, the Framers did the same when they defined an Article II “natural born citizen” and inserted the clause into the Constitution. And our early Congress followed suit when it passed the Naturalization Acts of 1790, 1795, 1802, and 1855, which implicitly recognized who was a natural born citizen by providing for the potential naturalization of all those who were not natural born citizens, i.e., all those children who were not born in the country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Finally, the Locke/Vattel/Ramsay position that citizen parents (meaning both father and mother which was accomplished by wives taking on the citizenship of their husbands) were needed for one to be born a citizen and a natural born citizen without the aid of any Act of Congress or treaty was vindicated by subsequent U.S. Supreme Court cases such as The Venus, Inglis, Shanks, Dred Scott, The Slaughterhouse Cases, and Minor. Wong Kim Ark eventually made an exception in 1898, not to who were the natural born citizens, but rather who were under the Fourteenth Amendment the “citizens of the United States” by birth in the U.S. Wong provided a different interpretation and application of the Fourteenth Amendment than did The Slaughterhouse Cases. In holding who was a citizen of the United States at birth under the Fourteenth Amendment, Wong replaced birth in the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents with birth in the U.S. to parents who, if not U.S. citizens, were at least permanently domiciled and residents in the U.S.

This is more convincing evidence that the Founders, Framers, Ratifiers, and public did look to Vattel for their definition of a natural born citizen and that Judge Bent erred in dismissing Vattel's definition and his “parents” as not constitutionally relevant on the question of the meaning of a natural born citizen.

Unknown said...

Vattels phrase has no significance because democrat party can nominate whoever they want whether they are a nbc or not. These state judges are clowns and rubber stamps.

Anonymous said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...
"Mr. Nash, Stop making stuff up. Where do you see anywhere in Minor v. Happersett (1875) that the Court said that at common law the children born in the country to alien parents were natives or natural born citizens?"

Mario, I don't know where. I've always assumed the exact opposite, but I thank you for creating yet another straw man right out of thin air, with no quote to back-up your transparent attempt to make me look like the one who is the fool.

You added: "The Court did add that as for children born out of the United States, the only way they could be citizens of the United States was by Act of Congress or treaty."
I've already revealed the falsity of that erroneous presumption, and you, as usual, have never attempted to refute the facts or logic of what I wrote because they can't be refuted.

You have a major juvenile paradox working in your doctrinal biased mind, -a self-contradictory stance about the Supreme Court. You worship at the alter of their authority in Minor, under the misconception that your reversing of the language of Vattel makes your doctrine constitutionally supported by the ever so prestigious Supreme Court, whose authority you site to claim that clearly, by their Olympian decree foreign-born Americans are aliens.

And yet the reverse side of your conflicted coin is your stance on the authority of the highly flawed opinion of the court in Wong. You reverse course and condemn their blatant disregard for the original meaning of the 14th Amendment.
Didn't anyone ever tell you that you can't have it both ways? Is the court a pantheon of gods or men?

As for those who seek the truth, the opinions of men are the last place to seek it, no matter what kind of black robe they are wearing.

btw, excellent evisceration of Maskell's anti-logic in the 3-parter.

Posted today: Here's my transcription of a Google-scanned ancient text; it is a direct source for the truth about nationality that I've discovered and shared:

A New Abridgement of the Law ~by a gentleman of the Middle Temple, Vol. I ~1736

It contains more than one smoking gun that will expose false doctrines on both sides. You don't know actual history until you read it. I've included notations illuminating the laws that it documents.
It's all about aliens, natural-born subjects, -the natives & the foreign born, and naturalized subjects. It's a rosetta stone of truth.
http://h2ooflife.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/the-truth-about-british-nationality-from-ancient-text/
3900 words

Anonymous said...

Mario wrote: "he did not understand that citizenship of the U.S. could not have started before July 4, 1776, for there was no separate and independent political nation called the United States before then of which to be a citizen (a member),"

You are missing the real-world, picture of membership reality. Every Freeman in America was a citizen of his city, town, county and colony.

If you were not an immigrant, a slave, an involuntary servant, or an Indian, then you were a citizen of your home colony or State republic.
The President had to be a citizen by other than legal means, -meaning not by common law nor naturalization, but by descent only, -not native birth only.

Congressmen only had to be citizens and Americans. They did not have to be citizens of the federal government, nor the newly organized and approved national union of the 12 sovereign republics, nor the combination of both.

They only had to be citizens IN and of the united republics of America, meaning Americans who were citizens, (as they all were unless of the excluded groups).

American? check! Citizen? check! Within the American nation? check!
Then you can serve in Congress to represent your State. You just had to have been born of parents who were citizens in one of the colonies or States.

On July 4th, '76, the Americans' nationality changed from British subject to American only.

Their citizenship did not change because they remained unaltered in regard to their relationship to their own republic's or commonwealth's government. They were its citizens before that date and remained so after.

Unless one learns to stop thinking of citizenship only in terms of the aggregate nation, one will remain in the dark as to the real situation.

"Wong replaced birth in the U.S. to U.S. citizen parents with birth in the U.S. to parents who, if not U.S. citizens, were at least permanently domiciled and residents in the U.S."

Do you know what that means, yet? -that Obama is not an U.S. citizen by actual law? When will you find the courage to state that inescapable fact?

ajtelles said...

I can't help it...

Mario, on May 3, 2014 at 2:44 AM, h2ooflife, aka h2o, finger-wagged you again, and, although I was going to ignore his snippets comments, well, "I can't help it", this finger-wag is just too funny conceptually.

h2o said -

>> "You added:
>> ' "The Court did add that as for children born out of the United States,
>> "the only way they could be citizens of the United States
>> "was by Act of Congress or treaty."

>> "I've already revealed the falsity of that erroneous presumption,
>> "and you, as usual,
>> "have never attempted to refute the facts or logic of what I wrote
>> "because they can't be refuted."


[h2o has "already" revealed the error of others, so Mario, how can you be so unappreciative of h2o's erudite conclusions?]

[...]

>> "As for those who seek the truth,
>> "the opinions of men are the last place to seek it,
>> "no matter what kind of black robe they are wearing."


[So, Mario, the sensible conclusion of readers of h2o's "opinion" is that the "opinion" of this man h2o is as forgettable as the opinions of the men h2o denigrates—unless, as he has done in the past, h2o can twist their words to say what h2o says that their words "should" mean, 'cause h2o said so.]

>> "btw, excellent evisceration of Maskell's anti-logic in the 3-parter."

[See, Mario, when your right in adducing the opinions of men as in your “excellent evisceration of Maskell's anti-logic ...”, h2o will say so, 'cause he's fair and balanced, you see. And I'm “fair and balanced” too, 'cause when h2o agrees with me, I'll say so too, as my comment 2 days ago titled “Dittos” on May 1, 2014 at 12:32 PM objectively proves that h2o agrees with both you AND me. Miracles still happen.]

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Stranger/Adrien Nash/h2ooflife,

I of II

I wrote:

“So the writer erred because he did not understand that citizenship of the U.S. could not have started before July 4, 1776, for there was no separate and independent political nation called the United States before then of which to be a citizen (a member), but residency (mere attachment to a physical place) within the territory that became the United States started from the time of one’s birth in the colonies.”

You replied that I am “missing the real-world, picture of membership reality. Every Freeman in America was a citizen of his city, town, county and colony.” That statement and the rest of your comment, as are most of your other comments, are not only just statements containing your personal beliefs which have no support in history or law, but also nothing more that circular and contradictory arguments.

In its most fundamental form, citizenship is membership in a republic based on contract and the relationship it creates between the person and that republic. Given that duties and rights come with being a citizen, being a citizen means that one is a member of or attached to that republic which expects the performance of those duties in return for which it protects those rights. It is self-evident that one cannot be the member of some entity or something unless that entity or something is first created or already exists. The status of being a citizen therefore assumes that some political entity is first created or already exists which will serve as the object to which one’s citizenship or membership will attach. Throughout history this membership has taken on different forms (in monarchies members have been usually called subjects who have had different duties and rights). But regardless of the form, there always has first been a political entity to which one’s membership attached. You may ask how these principles prove my position that there were no American citizens prior to July 4, 1776 and only thereafter. Allow me to explain.

The word “city” comes from the Latin civitatem (nominative civitas; in Late Latin sometimes citatem). Civitas replaced the Latin urbs (urban). http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=city . Hence, members of those cities came to be called citizens. In later history, one became a member of a country or nation. Depending upon the society and nation and time period in history, citizenship carried with it different duties and rights, as defined by religion, political philosophy, custom, and law. Hence, historically, citizenship meant being a member of a civil or political society called a city which then with other cities formed a country or nation, which provided its members with specific duties and rights acknowledged or created by religion, political philosophy, custom, and law of the people who inhabited the territory that comprised the country or nation.

American citizenship is also membership in the United States or an individual state. It is based on consent which has its origin in social compact or contract. The original American citizens became citizens of their respective states because they consented, in one form or another, to be its citizens. They expressed that consent after the Declaration of Independence severed the political bands between the English colonies and Great Britain by adhering to the American Revolution. British subjects who did not consent to become Americans remained British subjects and had to leave the new America. Such consent could only be formally exercised starting on July 4, 1776, the day of independence from Great Britain, independence which created the free and independent states. It was only after that date that there was a state of which to be a member. Before that date, there were only British colonies. Being a member of a British

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

colony was not the same as being a member of an American state, for only those who chose to be members of a new state in fact became its members. And with that membership came duties and rights which did not exist in one who was a member of a colony. In the new states, those duties and rights were seen as originating from nature which God gave to man and not from government or one person such as a King.

With the success of the American Revolution, the American people became sovereign. Exercising their new sovereignty, they immediately created new constitutions and state governments. They gave to those state governments limited powers which they were to exercise to protect the life, liberty, and property of all the members and inhabitants of the new states. Eventually all these states joined together in 1777 to create a Confederation, with the Articles of Confederation as the first Constitution being ratified in 1781. To create a more perfect and therefore happier union (stronger and more prosperous and therefore more free), the states then again joined forces in 1787 and adopted a new Constitution which the states ratified in 1788. With the ratification of the Constitution, state citizens automatically became also citizens of the United States. Under that Constitution, the people created one nation which we call the United States of America with a stronger central government. In their Constitution, the people gave to that central government, comprised of legislative, executive, and judicial branches, a specified set of enumerated and limited powers. All the powers that the people did not transfer to that central government, they reserved for themselves or the states.

It was citizens of the states in that capacity who created the new America, with its new freedoms and government, not subjects of the English colonies in that capacity. Those former English subjects had to make a decision to become members of the new America. Not all of those subjects chose to become Americans. Once that decision was made, they became members of their states and eventually the nation called the United States. It was only through the effort of those new American citizens that the new America was created. If the former British colonial subjects who chose not to become American citizens had their way, the King and Parliament would still have ruled over America. If it were not for citizens of the states (not subjects of the colonies), there would not be a United States.

So as we can see, there never has existed any need that there were citizens of the states or of the United States prior to July 4, 1776. But not only has any such need ever existed, there also were no and there could not be any citizens of the states or of the United States before July 4, 1776. At that time, there did not exist any state or the United States of which to be a member. It took the new citizens of the new states which came into being on July 4, 1776 to create the new America. If it were not for those new citizens, there would not be any states or a United States of America.

So, Mr. Nash, I have demonstrated that there did not exist nor could there exist American citizens prior to July 4, 1776 and that therefore you are wrong again.

Slartibartfast said...

A few last observations...

Unknown,

I will leave you to taunt Mario and his cohorts a second time.

Mario said (referring to Jack Maskell's thesis): "So are we to think that the Framers would allow Congress to define a natural born citizen and to simply turn natural born citizens on and off as it pleases?"

Holy straw man, Batman!

This is not the position of Maskell or the anti-birthers. Congress can add to the class of natural born citizens (or remove groups that they have previously added), but they have no power to withdraw jus soli citizenship. That would require a Constitutional Amendment. I guess when you can't attack a position on its merits, the only thing left to do is to misrepresent it.

Art,

I see that you are so afraid of my arguments that you need to keep misrepresenting them as well. Have I ever said that any citizen parents are necessary for natural born citizenship?

As for your three Obama administration pseudo-scandals...

Benghazi: evidence of the predictable results of the Bush administration replacing Embassy Marines with private contractors. Because of that mistake, nothing that President Obama could have done would have made a difference.

IRS: Nothing but a which hunt by Rep. Issa. He requested that the IRS investigate the targeting of right wing groups, but didn't have them collect the data about left wing groups and apolitical organizations that would have allowed the kind of comparisons of rates of investigation and rates at which tax-free status was denied needed to demonstrate that something untoward was occurring.

Fast and Furious: There's no there there.

What's with all the nonsense about obots not addressing "original intent". If you'll knock off the incessant whining, I'll explain to you why the 14th Amendment and the holding in Wong Kim Ark accurately represent the original intent of the Founders when I come back.

Leo,

Just because everyone disagrees with you on eligibility doesn't mean they don't care about it. If you want to prove that it is possible, get a citizen naturalized after birth nominated by a major party, elected and certified by Congress. If you can do that I'll admit that I was wrong in saying your claim was idiotic.

A. R. Nash said: [Nothing of any coherence, relevance or significance]

I'll drop by again May 19th to congratulate Mario on his great victory in getting the SCOTUS to hear a case which fails to raise a Constitutional issue.

ajtelles said...

1/2

ONLY TWO or ALSO ONE...

On May 4, 2014 at 1:00 AM, Slartibartfast, aka S...t, said -

>> "A few last observations...
[…]
>> "Art,

>> "I see that you are so afraid of my arguments that you need to keep misrepresenting them as well.
>> "Have I ever said that
>> "any citizen parents
>> "are necessary
>> "for natural born citizenship?"


[S...t, your “any” emphasis contradicts “original intent”. To whom was John Jay referring when he underlined "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit "from birth"?

Maybe the following 8 questions will help to focus your answer.
My choice is #1, what's yours?
Based on your statement above with the emphasis on “any”, is your choice #5, #7, or #5 - #7?

1-[x] yes [ ] no - Was Jay referring ONLY to birth on U.S. soil to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents?
2-[ ] yes [x] no - Was Jay referring ALSO to birth on foreign soil to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents?
3-[ ] yes [x] no - Was Jay referring ALSO to birth on U.S. soil to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent?
4-[ ] yes [x] no - Was Jay referring ALSO to birth on foreign soil to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent?
5-[ ] yes [x] no - Was Jay referring ALSO to birth on U.S. soil to ONLY ZERO U.S. citizen parents?
6-[ ] yes [x] no - Was Jay referring ALSO to birth on foreign soil to ONLY ZERO U.S. citizen parents?
7-[ ] yes [x] no - Was Jay referring ALSO to birth on U.S. soil to ALSO ZERO U.S. citizen parents?
8-[ ] yes [x] no - Was Jay referring ALSO to birth on foreign soil to ALSO ZERO U.S. citizen parents?


>> “As for your three Obama administration pseudo-scandals...

>> “Benghazi: evidence of the predictable results of the Bush administration replacing Embassy Marines with private contractors. Because of that mistake, nothing that President Obama could have done would have made a difference.”


[S...t, today is May 4, 2014, so you absolutely know that the Benghazi emails from the White House implicate BHObama, Leon Panetta and Hillary Clinton et alii in a cover-up of a cover-up that began within the hour of hostilities beginning. Because U.S. citizens died in Benghazi, Libya, BHO's cover-up is GREATER that Nixon's coverup of a simple break-in into an office in the Watergate building where nobody died, so you deliberately obfuscate with a reference to the Bush administration? Dude, you've gotta get a grip on topical reality, things that are happening in real time, and not only during GHWBush's administration. Your Obama-birther goose is cooked on the original intent of Article II so you go off on a tangent, just like A.R. Nash does sometimes on birth soil and citizenship and etc.]

ajtelles said...

ONLY TWO or ALSO ONE...

2/2

>> “IRS: Nothing but a which hunt by Rep. Issa. He requested that the IRS investigate the targeting of right wing groups, but didn't have them collect the data about left wing groups and apolitical organizations that would have allowed the kind of comparisons of rates of investigation and rates at which tax-free status was denied needed to demonstrate that something untoward was occurring.”

[S...t, it is obvious that your are sticking to your paid or unpaid “cadre” “hope and change” wishes and dreams marching orders, so you defend the IRS's Lois Lerner by sucker-punching Rep. Issa. Yeah. Ok. If that's the best you can do, you are saying nothing relevant to exonerate the IRS and its obstruction, since BHO first took office in 2009, that stonewalled conservative TEA parties from getting the appropriate tax status they were requesting, and which is STILL going on.]

>> “Fast and Furious: There's no there there.”

[S...t, you're too much dude. You are serious about “there's no there there” because you know that there definitely is “there there”, and Attorney General Eric Holders KNOWS that there is definitely “there there” that will require a cover-up, so Holder and Obama definitely do NOT want to go “there”, or anywhere near “there”.]

>> “What's with all the nonsense about obots not addressing "original intent". If you'll knock off the incessant whining, I'll explain to you why the 14th Amendment and the holding in Wong Kim Ark accurately represent the original intent of the Founders when I come back.”

[S...t, your incessant Obama-birther nonsense and whining about everything from the 1868 14th Amendment to U.S. v Wong Kim Ark in 1879 and avoiding the 1787 “original intent” of Article II Section 1 Clause 5 is just too funny, dude.

The simple question asked previously requires only one simple answer.

Did John Jay ONLY imply birth on U.S. soil to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, or did Jay ALSO imply birth on U.S. soil to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent?

The simple question has nothing to do with whether or not “any” is implied by John Jay's underling the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth”.]


Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Slartibartfast said...

Art,

By underlining "born", Jay was emphasizing that potential Commanders-in-Chief should be citizens from birth rather than acquiring citizenship later in life.

Which is, I would point out, much simpler (in the sense of Ockham's razor) than your blather about 8 choices and such...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

Here is more on original intent and meaning. The Framers sought to keep out of the Office of President and Commander in Chief of the Military foreign and monarchical influence. They saw such influence as a threat to the preservation and perpetuation of the republic. They used the natural born citizen clause to insulate those offices from such a threat. The natural born citizen clause therefore has a goal that is of compelling national interest. That interest is the national security and the safety of the Offices of President and Commander in Chief and of the American people.

Since the clause’s goal is a compelling national interest, it needs the best means to promote and achieve that goal. There is no doubt that birth in the country to citizen parents, which cuts off any claims by any foreign power to the allegiance and citizenship of a would-be President and Commander and best avoids such a person harboring in one way or another such allegiance, is the best means by which to achieve the national security goal. Any person who would argue against this is a fool. End of story.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I of II

You wrote:

“I'll drop by again May 19th to congratulate Mario on his great victory in getting the SCOTUS to hear a case which fails to raise a Constitutional issue.”

-----

As you have clearly demonstrated on this blog and elsewhere, your ability to distinguish between diverse concepts is wanting. Now, you confuse whether a question is a constitutional one with whether the U.S. Supreme Court will answer that question.

Let us first examine the nature of the questions raised by us in the Paige v. Obama Vermont state ballot litigation now pending in the U.S. Supreme Court on a petitioner for a writ of certiorari. We do raise in our petition a significant federal constitutional question under Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 which is whether de facto President Barack Obama is a natural born citizen, and under the Fourteenth Amendment which is whether the State of Vermont, by placing Barack Obama on the primary and general election ballot when he does not meet the definition of a natural born citizen as confirmed by Minor v. Happersett (1875) and U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) (hence we need not look for penumbras or emanations or to invent some new substantive due process right), violated its own laws and the Fourteenth Amendment by abridging Brooke Paige’s privileges and immunities as a citizen of the United States, and depriving him of life, liberty, and property without substantive due process of law, and denying him the equal protection of the laws, by allowing and contributing to a constitutionally ineligible person to be elected as President and Commander in Chief of the Military in Vermont and in the United States, and thereby depriving Mr. Paige of his fundamental constitutional right to be represented in the political process only by a constitutionally eligible President and Commander, and further violated the Fourteenth Amendment by denying him procedural and substantive due process by declaring his presidential ballot challenge filed against Obama and the State of Vermont moot and by so doing denying him a state judicial forum in which he can in a real sense protect his privileges and immunities enjoyed by him as a citizen of the United States, his right to life, liberty, and property, and his constitutionally based fundamental political right to be represented only by a constitutionally valid President, by pursuing a state legal action against Obama and Vermont under both state and federal law which is intended for those purposes.

These questions are not political questions and do disrupt the delicate balance of power between a state and the federal government. The questions also do not work to undermine our notion of the people’s republican and democratic government. Under our Constitution, a state acts as an agent of the federal government when conducting state elections for national constitutional offices. The election of Barack Obama as President and Commander has personally affected Brooke Paige and at least under the First Amendment, Vermont had a constitutional duty to him to have run that election in a fair and proper manner so as to assure the integrity of that election in all material matters which includes constitutional eligibility for those offices. Hence, these questions involve a straightforward interpretation and application of the natural born citizen clause and a state’s duty to enforce that clause in federal elections for the Office of President and Commander.

Continued . . .

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

II of II

Now, let me address the question of whether the U.S. Supreme Court will answer the constitutional questions I have identified above. Because of its unknown political attitude and other reasons known only to it, whether the Court will or will not answer these questions is not known. In any event, we know that the high Court accepts only a very small percentage of cases for review. So you trying to imply that my position lacks merit or acting like you are some genius because you can predict the outcome of what the high Court will do (not grant the petition) is ridiculous.

Additionally, I do not know why you and the Obot world want the Court not to grant the petition for review. I would think that, given how sure you are of the correctness of your position which should lead you not to fear a decision by the Court, you would not want Barack Obama to go down in history for a large portion of Americans (only to grow in the future as more and more people become educated on the meaning of a natural born citizen) as Chester Arthur has as a constitutionally illegitimate President of the United States due to the Court not definitively answering the question of whether he is a natural born citizen.

ajtelles said...

ONLY TWO or ALSO ONE or ALSO ZERO... "from birth"...

Slartibartfast, , on May 4, 2014 at 5:29 PM, you said -

>> "Art,
>> "By underlining "born",
>> "Jay was emphasizing that potential Commanders-in-Chief
>> "should be citizens from birth
>> "rather than acquiring citizenship later in life."

>> "Which is, I would point out, much simpler (in the sense of Ockham's razor)
>> "than your blather about 8 choices and such..."


- - - - - - - - - -

So, S...t, you choose to “blather”, your word, only about "from birth" and "later in life", but you choose to not opine, not even a “smidgen”, about John Jays' original intent and about the number of U.S. citizen parents Jay was implying when he underlined the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit "from birth".

The simple question I asked previously on May 4, 2014 at 3:33 PM requires only one simple answer.

Did John Jay ONLY imply birth on U.S. soil to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, or did Jay ALSO imply birth on U.S. soil to ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent, OR, amending my previous question to you about your emphasis on the word “any”, did Jay ALSO imply birth on U.S. soil to ZERO U.S. citizen parents?

S...t, another way of putting it is contained in Mario's paragraph that he posted on May 4, 2014 at 6:40 PM -

>> “Since the clause’s goal is a compelling national interest,
>> “it needs the best means to promote and achieve that goal.
>> “There is no doubt that birth in the country to citizen parents,
>> “which cuts off any claims by any foreign power
>> “to the allegiance and citizenship
>> “of a would-be President and Commander
>> “and best avoids such a person harboring in one way or another such allegiance,
>> “is the best means by which to achieve the national security goal.
>> ?Any person who would argue against this is a fool.
>> “End of story.”


It is understood that your “hope and change” wishes and dreams are taking you elsewhere for a time, so, what is you simple answer to the number of U.S. citizen parents Jay was implying by underlining the word “born” in “natural born Citizen” with the implicit “from birth”?

[] yes [] no TWO
[] yes [] no ONE
[] yes [] no ZERO

What is your Obama birth narrative choice S...t? 2 or 1 or 0 U.S. citizen parents.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "...more perfect Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

I said in referring to Jack Maskell's thesis: "So are we to think that the Framers would allow Congress to define a natural born citizen and to simply turn natural born citizens on and off as it pleases?"

You responded:

“Holy straw man, Batman!

This is not the position of Maskell or the anti-birthers. Congress can add to the class of natural born citizens (or remove groups that they have previously added), but they have no power to withdraw jus soli citizenship. That would require a Constitutional Amendment. I guess when you can't attack a position on its merits, the only thing left to do is to misrepresent it.”

-----

The straw man is all yours. I never argued that Congress has the power to withdraw jus soli citizenship, for clearly it does not given the Fourteenth Amendment. However, such a constitutional scheme does not preclude Congress from passing legislation under its necessary and proper powers defining what “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” means.

You also beg the question. You assume without proving that the Framers accepted a child born in the United States to alien parents to be a natural born citizen. On the contrary, historical and legal evidence demonstrates that they did not. Hence, for purposes of natural born citizen constitutional analysis, it does not amount to a hill of beans whether Congress does or does not have the power to withdraw jus soli citizenship, which was only created for national citizenship by Wong Kim Ark's 1898 interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment. What does matter is that Congress cannot, without a constitutional amendment, take away or add to those who the Framers defined under the common law as the natural born citizens. And those were the children born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the children’s birth.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Slartibartfast,

You said to Art:

“By underlining ‘born’, Jay was emphasizing that potential Commanders-in-Chief should be citizens from birth rather than acquiring citizenship later in life.

Which is, I would point out, much simpler (in the sense of Ockham's razor) than your blather about 8 choices and such...”

-----

Jay did not have to underline the word “born” to show that the persons he wanted to be eligible to be Commander in Chief had to be citizens from the moment of birth and not after birth. Just writing “natural born citizen” did that. The problem that you have is that he did not just write “born citizen,” and underlined “born.” Rather, he wrote “natural born citizen,” and underlined “born.” Hence, he must have meant something more than born citizen or else he would have just written born citizen.

We know why he wrote natural born citizen. The reason is that the clause, which was a word of art, an idiom, a unitary clause, had a specific meaning which born citizen did not. The meaning of the clause did not change by Jay underlying “born.” Rather, the clause still meant born in a country to parents who were its citizens at the time of the child’s birth. Vattel; Minor; Wong Kim Ark. Simple evidence that underlying “born” did not change the meaning of the clause is that the Framers simply wrote “natural born Citizen” in Article II and did not underline the word “born.” So, the clause, regardless of whether “born” was underlined or not, had a very specific definition which was a working definition that provided clarity and certainty as to who was a natural born citizen and thus eligible to be President and Commander. Everyone nation could understand and apply such a definition. And that became the clause and definition which the Framers adopted into Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 when they said that no person born after the adoption of the Constitution who was not a natural born citizen was eligible to the Office of President.

So, Slartibartfast, trying to find in Jay’s underlining “born” evidence that supports your Maskell thesis that any born citizen is a natural born citizen is mere fantasy.

ajtelles said...

You've done it...

Mario, it looks like you've done it. History is reality, and historical reality is on your side of the debate about the original intent meaning of “natural born Citizen” in Article II Section 1 Clause 5. It only took about 5 years and 5 months, from your first post on December 20, 2008 to today, May 5, 2014, give or take, for the Obama-birthers to not respond to your "original intent" common sense. Where are the Kevin Davidson ObamaConspiracy.org denizens with their inane defense of the Obama birth narrative theory of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is sufficient to be eligible to be POTUS? Oh, of course. The O-birthers are following the latest Obama eligibility news event cause they can NOT defend the original intent of Article II.

It looks like the Obama-birther defenders of the Obama birth narrative have conceded the debate to your articulation of the historical record from 1700 England to and through 1787, to all of the Naturalization Acts of Congress, to the 1868 14th Amendment of Congress, to the 1879 U.S. v Wong Kim Ark opinion of the SCOTUS, to today in 2014, and ALL the O-birthers have to finger-wag you with is the opinions of the lower courts who arbitrarily opine that BHObama is a "natural born Citizen" because they say so.

As you wrote to Slartibartfast no May 4, 2014 at 8:53 PM

>> “Jay did not have to underline the word “born”
>> “to show that the persons he wanted to be eligible to be Commander in Chief
>> “had to be citizens from the moment of birth
>> “and not after birth.
>> “Just writing “natural born citizen” did that.”


From my layman's perch, it is just common sense to conclude that just as it is implicit that in 1787, when John Jay underlined "born" in "natural born Citizen", Jay meant ONLY birth on U.S. soil, it is also implicit that Jay's original intent, from 1787 and perpetually, was that "born" also ONLY meant birth to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, NOT one U.S. citizen parent or zero U.S. citizen parents, as articulated by some of the O-birthers, or one husband with multiple wives as in Islam.

BOTH meanings, birth on U.S. soil and TWO U.S. citizen parents, are implicit from 1787 until today in 2014. Only with an Article V convention of states to amend the constitution can the implicit be made explicit with language that explicitly states that birth must be ONLY on U.S. soil and jurisdictions, and birth must be ONLY to TWO U.S. citizen parents, who are married to each other, and who are U.S. citizens BEFORE the child is born to them.

Mario, the O-birthers can NOT get past the ontological reality that the Obama birth narrative of the “lower hurdle” of ONLY ONE U.S. citizen parent is ALSO implicit. Being implicit, it is conceptually indefensible from John Jay's common sense "original intent' implicit presupposition that being "born" a "natural born Citizen" definitely implies the “higher hurdle” of "from birth" on U.S. soil presupposition to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, and that ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents can produce a U.S. citizen child who is ALSO a U.S. “natural born Citizen” from birth; BOTH parents are U.S. citizens and they pass on to their child their U.S. citizen status just as they pass on their ontology. The parents exist as human beings and so does their child. The parents exist as U.S. citizens and so does their child. That “citizen” child born on U.S. soil to TWO U.S. citizen parents is a U.S. “natural born Citizen” from birth.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the "... more perfect Union"

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

In my comment of May 4, 2014, at 6:51 PM, it should read:

"These questions are not political questions and do not disrupt the delicate balance of power between a state and the federal government."

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

We will see if the Obots have any other argument that they want to make. Of course, they are free to make any legitimate argument they want. I will address all such arguments that they want to make.

Also, you will note that if the Obots, like Dr. Conspiracy, are still running at the mouth, they are doing so only where they believe they can convince their audience. They simply ignore what they cannot beat.

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

You've got that right, Mario.

>> "Also, you will note that if the Obots,
>> "like Dr. Conspiracy,
>> "are still running at the mouth,
>> "they are doing so only where they believe they can convince their audience.
>> "They simply ignore what they cannot beat."


And over at ObamaConspiracy.org the first post today is about BHObama's jokes at the White House Correspondents’ Association Annual Dinner, one of which was about Kenya, which the Obama-birthers think is so suave of Obama to bring it up as a clever way to deflect criticism.

Kevin Davidson wrote with unbiased “I enjoyed Obama's remarks” approval, well, except for Kevin's Obama-birther and better red than dead red rose colored glasses remark that the "birthers" are "yesterday's news", and ending with an approving quote by red diaper baby Saul Alinsky -

>> "After noting that an American won the Boston Marathon for the first time in 30 years, Obama said:
>> 'It’s only fair since a Kenyan has been president for the last six.' "
[...]
>> "While I enjoyed Obama’s remarks, I hope that this is the last Correspondents’ Dinner with birther jokes. Birthers are yesterday’s news (except in our little niche).

>> "A strategy that drags on too long becomes a drag.
>> "– Saul Alinsky"


It seems that Kevin Davidson's Obama inspired “hope and change” wishes and dreams “cadre” marching orders are inspiring his maintaining his “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... “little niche” for at least 2 more years 'cause Obama's stealth jihad hit job on the U.S. Constitution, “... we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America”, is not finished yet.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, among the multitudinous Obama-birthers, the O-birthers, the speaking in mono-tone "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama Obots, you have won the historical debate about the original intent meaning of Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

The intelligentsia of America, the courts, the Constitution scholars, while better equipped and more erudite opponents, if and when they man up, or woman up, as the case may be, if they engage you in debate and after they debate the historical record with you from the 1100s English Magna Carta to Emer de Vattel in the 1700s to Jack Maskell in the 2000s, even THEY, the erudite elite, can NOT defeat the 1787 perpetual original intent of John Jay underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit "from birth" on U.S. soil presupposition and the concomitant presupposition of birth to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, for the explicit purpose, as he wrote in his note to George Washington of protecting the national security of America, with the implicit addendum, from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

MichaelN said...

Jack Maskell will go down in US history as a traitor, who deliberately misled the US Congress, Senate and US citizens.

ajtelles said...

Dittos...

You've got that right, Mario, as you wrote on May 5, 2014 at 5:51 PM,

>> "Also, you will note that if the Obots,
>> "like Dr. Conspiracy,
>> "are still running at the mouth,
>> "they are doing so only where they believe they can convince their audience.
>> "They simply ignore what they cannot beat."


Over at ObamaConspiracy.org the first post yesterday was about BHObama's jokes at the White House Correspondents’ Association Annual Dinner, one of which was about Kenya, which the Obama-birthers think is so suave of Obama to bring it up as a clever way to deflect criticism.

The host, Dr. Conspiracy, wrote with unbiased “I enjoyed Obama's remarks” approval, well, unbiased except for his Obama-birther and better red than dead red rose colored glasses remark that the "birthers" are "yesterday's news", which ended with an approving quote by red diaper baby Saul Alinsky, who dedicated his book “Rules for Radicals” to Lucifer because he was the first to usurp control people and their soil without authority -

>> "After noting that an American won the Boston Marathon for the first time in 30 years, Obama said:
>> 'It’s only fair since a Kenyan has been president for the last six.' "
[...]
>> "While I enjoyed Obama’s remarks, I hope that this is the last Correspondents’ Dinner with birther jokes. Birthers are yesterday’s news (except in our little niche).

>> "A strategy that drags on too long becomes a drag.
>> "– Saul Alinsky"


It seems that Dr. Conspiracy's Obama inspired “hope and change” wishes and dreams are inspiring his maintaining his “O”bama... “O”bama... “O”bama... “little niche” for at least 2 more years 'cause Obama's stealth jihad hit job on the U.S. Constitution, which would make Saul Alinsky proud of his acolyte, “... we are five days away from fundamentally transforming the United States of America”, is not finished yet.

- - - - - - - - - -

Mario, among the multitudinous Obama-birthers, the O-birthers, the speaking in mono-tone "O"bama... "O"bama... "O"bama Obots, you have won the historical debate about the original intent meaning of Article II Section 1 Clause 5.

The intelligentsia of America, the courts, the Constitution scholars, while better equipped and more erudite opponents, if and when they man up, or woman up, as the case may be, if they engage you in debate and after they debate the historical record with you from the 1100s English Magna Carta to Emer de Vattel in the 1700s to Jack Maskell in the 2000s, even THEY, the erudite elite, can NOT defeat the 1787 perpetual original intent of John Jay underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit "from birth" on U.S. soil presupposition and the concomitant presupposition of birth to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, for the explicit purpose, as he wrote in his note to George Washington, of protecting the national security of America, with the implicit addendum, from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

MichaelN,

Jack Maskell will go down in history as the Congressional Research Attorney who told Congress, and they accepted that:

All natural born citizens are born citizens.

Obama is a born citizen.

Therefore, Obama is a natural born citizen.

OR

All poodles are dogs.

Bubbles is a dog.

Therefore, Bubbles is a poodle.

Unknown said...

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Some have asked why did John Jay underline the word 'born' when he recommended in his famous 1787 letter to then-General George Washington that the Commander in Chief of the Military had to be a 'natural born citizen.'"

And rather than tell the truth, which is that you don't know, you once again make up a position for a man no longer alive to speak for himself.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"First, we have to understand that the Founders and Framers had an unshakable faith and trust in God [...]"

They had a diversity of religious views and ended up with a Constitution that omits any mention of God.


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"Hence, by underlying the word 'born' which he preceded with the qualifier 'natural,' Jay emphasized that one had to be a natural born citizen, which is what he wrote, and not just a born citizen"

Did you forget the question? Jay didn't underline the phrase "natural born citizen", just the one word "born".


Mario Apuzzo, Esq. wrote:
"and not just a born citizen, which is what he did not write and which is what Alexander Hamilton had proposed which was rejected."

Where's the evidence that the wording was a rejection of Hamilton's idea? If you can quote any of the framers saying that Hamilton's proposal was insufficient and they meant to make the criteria stronger, please cite. I've asked you before and so far you have come up with nothing.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Unknown/NotLinda,

-1. I wrote:

"Some have asked why did John Jay underline the word 'born' when he recommended in his famous 1787 letter to then-General George Washington that the Commander in Chief of the Military had to be a 'natural born citizen.'"

You said:

“And rather than tell the truth, which is that you don't know, you once again make up a position for a man no longer alive to speak for himself.”

Reply:

How absurd. I guess we should stop interpreting the Founders’, Framers’, Ratifiers’, and People’s Constitution since they are all dead.

-2. I wrote:

"First, we have to understand that the Founders and Framers had an unshakable faith and trust in God [...]"

You said:

“They had a diversity of religious views and ended up with a Constitution that omits any mention of God.”

Reply:

First, there are many things that the Constitution does not say. But that certain things are not mentioned in the Constitution does not mean that the Framers did not think those things. Second, the U.S. Supreme Court uses the Declaration of Independence as a source of information which it uses when interpreting the Constitution. The Declaration of Independence says “Laws of Nature and Nature’s God.” That tells us a lot about what the Framers were thinking when they drafted and passed the Constitution. Third, furthermore, the Founders heavily relied upon natural law and natural rights which they believed came from God as a basis for the Revolution and the republican government they set up. For you to want to take God out of the equation in any discussion of the founding of the United States is absurd.

-3. I wrote:

"Hence, by underlying the word 'born' which he preceded with the qualifier 'natural,' Jay emphasized that one had to be a natural born citizen, which is what he wrote, and not just a born citizen"

You said:

“Did you forget the question? Jay didn't underline the phrase ‘natural born citizen’, just the one word ‘born’”.

Reply:

Where did you get the idea that I said that he underlined the whole clause “natural born citizen.” I specifically said he underlined “born” and explained that doing so was mere surplusage given that he wrote “natural born citizen” and that already said that future presidents would have to be citizens from the moment of birth. Underlining born probably meant that born meant truly born and not born merely by law which is exactly what “natural born citizen” means, i.e., a born citizen by no positive or municipal law. Where you and your Maskell thesis fails is that you both cannot explain why the Framers said “natural born citizen” and not just “born citizen,” which is the phrase to which you and Maskell want to convert “natural born citizen.”

-4. I wrote:

"and not just a born citizen, which is what he did not write and which is what Alexander Hamilton had proposed which was rejected."

You said:

“Where's the evidence that the wording was a rejection of Hamilton's idea? If you can quote any of the framers saying that Hamilton's proposal was insufficient and they meant to make the criteria stronger, please cite. I've asked you before and so far you have come up with nothing.”

Reply:

Where have you been your whole life? I guess you never noticed that Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 plainly says “natural born Citizen” and not “born Citizen.”

So, Unknown, will you be able to produce anything which demonstrates that you are correct and that I am wrong?

ajtelles said...

1/2

Where's the evidence...

Mario, on May 6, 2014 at 1:35 PM, you responded to Unknown/NotLinda, aka Unknown #11 (by my quick count, there were 10 previous “Unknowns” before Unknown #11 showed up, and there have been no more “Unknowns” since),

>> “[Unknown,] You said:

>> ' “Where's the evidence that the wording was a rejection of Hamilton's idea?
>> “If you can quote any of the framers saying that Hamilton's proposal was insufficient
>> “and they meant to make the criteria stronger, please cite.
>> “I've asked you before and so far you have come up with nothing.”

>> “Reply [by Mario]:

>> “Where have you been your whole life?
>> “I guess you never noticed that
>> “Article II, Section 1, Clause 5
>> “plainly says “natural born Citizen”
>> “and not “born Citizen.”

>> “So, Unknown, will you be able to produce anything which demonstrates that you are correct and that I am wrong?”

Mario, it seems that Unknown #11 did not read my response to S...fast on April 24, 2014 at 7:25 PM about John Jay and Alexander Hamilton, and why Hamilton's words were rejected by the Convention.

>> “So, S..., you can digress into the weeds of “set theory”, which is a valid discussion in a different context, or you can return to the substantive conversation about

>> “the original intent of “natural born Citizen” as understood by John Jay when,
>> “in New York on July 25, 1787,
>> “five weeks after June 18, 1787
>> “when Alexander Hamilton read to the Convention what is known as “The Hamilton Plan”,
>> “which contained in Article IX Section 1 the words, “now a Citizen … or … hereafter … born a citizen”,
>> “John Jay added the word “natural” to “born a citizen”,
>> “and, put the word “a” first,
>> “then Jay underlined the word “born” in “a natural born Citizen”
>> “with the implicit but obvious meaning of “from birth”,
>> “in his note to George Washington with the explicit comment,

[...]
"Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise and reasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of foreigners into the administration of our national government; and to declare expressly that the command in chief of the American army shall not be given to, nor devolve on any, but a natural born citizen. [a natural born citizen]
[...]
I remain, dear sir,
Your faithful friend and servant,
John Jay

See a picture of the note at >> http://www.kerchner.com/images/protectourliberty/johnjay1787lettertogeorgewashington.jpg

Read the “The Hamilton Plan” original at memory.loc.gov
>> http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llfr&fileName=003/llfr003.db&recNum=620&itemLink=r%3Fammem%2Fhlaw%3A@field%28DOCID%2B@lit%28fr0032%29%29%230030003&linkText=1

It starts this way -

>> “In connection with his important speech of June 18, Hamilton read a sketch of a plan of government which 'was meant only to give a more correct view of his ideas, and to suggest the amendments which he should probably propose to the plan of Mr. R. in the proper states of its future discussion.'

>> “Although this plan was not formally before the Convention in any way, several of the delegates made copies that show considerable differences in certain articles, … .”

ajtelles said...

Where's the evidence...

2/2

The “The Hamilton Plan” Article IX is at
>> http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llfr&fileName=003/llfr003.db&recNum=632&itemLink=r%3Fammem%2Fhlaw%3A@field%28DOCID%2B@lit%28fr0032%29%29%230030003&linkText=1

>> “Article IX Sec. 1.
>> “No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States.


>> “Wikipedia.org, although it is not an authoritative source, it quotes an authority, Max Farrand, in a succinct statement in the section titled Constitutional Convention -

>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born-citizen_clause

>> “The Constitution does not explain the meaning of "natural born".

>> “On June 18, 1787, Alexander Hamilton submitted to the Convention a sketch of a plan of government. The sketch provided for an executive "Governour" but had no eligibility requirements.

>> “At the close of the Convention, Hamilton conveyed a paper to James Madison he said delineated the Constitution that he wished had been proposed by the Convention; he had stated its principles during the deliberations.

>> “Max Farrand wrote that it ‘...was not submitted to the Convention and has no further value than attaches to the personal opinions of Hamilton.’ “


- - - - - - - - - -

Alexander Hamilton, The Works of Alexander Hamilton, (Federal Edition), vol. 1 [1774]
>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/simple.php?id=1378

John Jay, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, vol. 3 (1782-1793) [1891]
>> http://oll.libertyfund.org/simple.php?id=2329

- - - - - - - - - -

The suggestion by John Jay which he wrote in a note to George Washington was presented to the Convention delegates for their consideration by Washington himself. The thoughts of Alexander Hamilton were not presented by anybody to the Convention delegates for their consideration. John Jay's “natural born Citizen” suggestion was accepted and adopted by the Convention “original birthers”, the Convention Framers, and also accepted by the Ratifiers the next year. Alexander Hamilton's “born a Citizen” suggestion was never considered by the Convention delegates, the Framers.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

Slartibartfast said...

Mario,

Unknown's point is that you have never produced evidence that the Framers didn't replace the layman's term "born a citizen" with the appropriate term with the same meaning from the nomenclature in which the Constitution was written (i.e. the language of the English common law), "natural born citizen".

Unknown and I have supported this theory with references to the SCOTUS (in your beloved Minor, no less) claiming that "subject" and "citizen" were precisely analogous as well as claiming that the naturalization acts of 1795 and later didn't change the meaning explicitly stated in the Naturalization act of 1790 which made natural born citizens of the children of citizens born abroad.

You, on the other hand, have nothing which would indicate that the change from "born a citizen" to "natural born citizen" radically changed the meaning in the Founders' eyes.

Art,

I've got one word for you: indictments.

If the faux scandals you mention are so heinous, how many indictments and resignations have they generated? I believe that the number you're currently looking at is zero.

If you want to convince anyone objective that the Obama administration is massively corrupt, then you will need evidence such as a much higher rate of indictments and resignations in the Executive Branch than was seen in prior administrations. Of course, the actual numbers tell a much different story than the one you're trying to sell, but when have you ever let facts get in your way?

ajtelles said...

Correction...

Mario, I previously wrote about the "1100s Magna Carta" on May 6, 2014 at 11:31 AM, but I meant the 1100s "Charter of Liberties", also known as the "Coronation Charter", which was a proclamation of concessions by King Henry I of England that he agreed to when he ascended to the throne in 1100.

The Magna Carta was published June 15, 1215.

Magna Carta, Latin for Great Charter, also called Magna Carta Libertatum or The Great Charter of the Liberties of England, was originally issued in Latin in the year 1215, requiring King John of England to accept that his will was not arbitrary, and to proclaim the liberties of the feudal barons who wanted to protect their privileges by limiting his powers and powers of future kings.

The "Magna Carta" was influenced by the 1100 "Charter of Liberties" in which King Henry I had specified particular areas wherein his powers and the powers of future Kings of England would be limited.

- - - - - - - - - -

It it worth repeating what I wrote earlier about the "erudite elite" who may want to debate your historical analysis, which includes Jack Maskell, at least until somebody else steps up to the plate.

The intelligentsia of America, the courts, the Constitution scholars, while better equipped and more erudite opponents, if and when they man up, or woman up, as the case may be, if they engage you in debate and after they debate the historical record with you from the 1100s "Charter of Liberties" to the 1215 English "Magna Carta" to Sir Edward Coke in the 1600s to Emer de Vattel in the 1700s to Jack Maskell in the 2000s, even THEY, the erudite elite, can NOT defeat the 1787 perpetual original intent of John Jay underlining the word "born" in "natural born Citizen" with the implicit "from birth" on U.S. soil presupposition and the concomitant presupposition of birth to ONLY TWO U.S. citizen parents, for the explicit purpose, as he wrote in his note to George Washington, of protecting the national security of America, with the implicit addendum, from ALL enemies, foreign AND domestic.

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

MichaelN said...

ajtelles said...

"The suggestion by John Jay which he wrote in a note to George Washington was presented to the Convention delegates for their consideration by Washington himself. The thoughts of Alexander Hamilton were not presented by anybody to the Convention delegates for their consideration. John Jay's “natural born Citizen” suggestion was accepted and adopted by the Convention “original birthers”, the Convention Framers, and also accepted by the Ratifiers the next year. Alexander Hamilton's “born a Citizen” suggestion was never considered by the Convention delegates, the Framers."

Art
U.S. Constitution
The Original Birther Document of the “... more perfect Union”

May 6, 2014 at 3:44 PM
------------------

That says it all Art.

i.e. two types of born US citizens were in the minds of the Founders and Framers in the framing period.

This leaves no doubt that "natural born Citizen" was descriptive of a born citizen, with extra allegiance qualities.

Mario Apuzzo, Esq. said...

Art (ajtelles),

I of III

There is much confusion regarding Alexander Hamilton proposals to the Convention. Hamilton gave a speech to the Convention on June 18, 1787. He read to Convention his Propositions for A Constitution of Government. See Works of Alexander Hamilton (page 393); 3 M. Farrand, The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, at 617 (rev. ed. 1937). 1 This speech contained a sketch of a plan which has become known as the English Plan. James Madison tells us in his Convention notes that “[i]t meant only to give a more correct view of his ideas, and to suggest the amendment which he should probably propose to the plan of Mr. R. in the proper stages of its future discussion.” Id. Hamilton proposed in his Propositions that the "supreme executive authority of the United States to be vested in a Governor. . ." and that he also be the "commander-in-chief. . ." In this initial sketch, Hamilton did not include any eligibility requirements for the supreme executive authority who he would call the President rather than Governor in his later draft of the Constitution. In his speech to the Convention, Hamilton advocated an executive for life. The reason that he gave for such a life position was that he believed that if a person had such an interest in an office for life, he would be “above the danger of being corrupted from abroad-and at the same time was both sufficiently independent and sufficiently controuled. . .” He added that one of the weakness of Republics was that they were “liable to foreign influence & corruption. Men of little character, acquiring great power become easily the tools of intermeddling Neibours. . . .” Here we can see that Hamilton was very concerned with the harm that could be done to the nation by an executive who was corrupted by foreign influence and intrigue.

This “sketch of a plan of government” was not formally presented to the Convention, but delegates, including James Madison, had various copies of this plan. Max Farrand's The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, Vol 3, p. 617 (1911). http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=llfr&fileName=003/llfr003.db&recNum=620&itemLink=r%3Fammem%2Fhlaw%3A@field%28DOCID%2B@lit%28fr0032%29%29%230030003&linkText=1 This plan does not include Hamilton’s “born a citizen” language which he included in a later document.

On July 25, 1787, about 5 weeks later, John Jay wrote a letter to then-General Washington, who was acting as president of the Constitutional Convention, stating:

"Permit me to hint, whether it would not be wise & seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Command in chief of the american army shall not be given to, nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen" (“born” underlined in the original).

http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28fr00379%29%29. John Jay reminded George Washington of the importance of remanding back to the original concerns of the people and offered his presentation, to which George Washington offered, verbatim, to the convention. Alexander Heard and Michael Nelson, Presidential Selection 123 (Duke University Press 1987) via Google Books.

On September 2, 1787, George Washington wrote a letter to John Jay the last line of which read: "I thank you for the hints contained in your letter."
http://www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=71483

Continued . . .

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